1 2012-06-15 00:01:22 skeledrew has joined
2 2012-06-15 00:02:28 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened issue 1467 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1467>
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6 2012-06-15 00:10:18 <AntKinGTube> ;;
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9 2012-06-15 00:12:26 <sipa> INFO: 58708259 bytes in 1674633 unspent txouts
10 2012-06-15 00:12:26 <sipa> INFO: 167137635 bytes in 4663418 spent txouts
11 2012-06-15 00:12:26 <sipa> INFO: 736376 not fully spent txs, 3339570 fully spent txs
12 2012-06-15 00:12:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: even a lot less, it seems
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16 2012-06-15 00:18:03 <Matt_von_Mises> How do I run the bitcoin tests? I don't understand the boost testing code. To be honest I don't understand why it's so overcomplicated like that but does anyone know how to run the tests?
17 2012-06-15 00:18:19 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: make -f makefile.unix test_bitcoin
18 2012-06-15 00:18:23 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: ./test_bitcoin
19 2012-06-15 00:19:44 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Thanks. Might be worth documenting that somewhere? Unless I missed the documentation.
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21 2012-06-15 00:21:15 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: i'm obviously biased and documentation is certainly a good idea; but isn't it obvious that to run the tests, you build the test binary and then run it?
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23 2012-06-15 00:21:35 <gavinandresen> Matt_von_Mises: good idea. Where would you expect to find that documentation? build-unix.txt or coding.txt ?
24 2012-06-15 00:22:00 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
25 2012-06-15 00:22:00 <gribble> 184571
26 2012-06-15 00:22:07 <gavinandresen> (or a separate doc/unit-tests.txt )
27 2012-06-15 00:22:09 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Is it obvious how you build the test binary?
28 2012-06-15 00:22:24 <gavinandresen> (or at the top of the makefiles....)
29 2012-06-15 00:22:28 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: maybe it only is if you've looked at the makefile
30 2012-06-15 00:22:33 <Matt_von_Mises> gavinandresen: Maybe a separate file? I'm not sure.
31 2012-06-15 00:22:45 <sipa> i guess doc/unit-tests.txt is a good idea
32 2012-06-15 00:22:52 <gavinandresen> I'll make it so
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34 2012-06-15 00:23:57 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt : am I remembering you implemented Qt unit tests for GUI code? How does one build those ?
35 2012-06-15 00:24:53 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: give me a minute to look it up, I dont remember...
36 2012-06-15 00:25:09 <BlueMatt> qmake bitcoin-qt.pro BITCOIN_QT_TEST=1 && make && ./bitcoin-qt_test
37 2012-06-15 00:25:18 <sipa> wow
38 2012-06-15 00:25:19 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks
39 2012-06-15 00:25:23 <sipa> what do those do?
40 2012-06-15 00:25:37 <BlueMatt> currently only test a bunch of uris
41 2012-06-15 00:26:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, I added them to get uris merged, and then everyone (including me, because I never code on the gui) promptly forgot they existed
42 2012-06-15 00:27:31 <sipa> first thing i hear about it (i admit i never looked at the uri stuff closely)
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44 2012-06-15 00:31:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: i can serialize the list of open txids + unspent txouts + metadata in 83998001 bytes
45 2012-06-15 00:31:08 <sipa> without compression
46 2012-06-15 00:32:04 <galambo> would compression help?
47 2012-06-15 00:32:20 <sipa> yes, certainly, but not that much
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50 2012-06-15 00:35:39 <sipa> maybe get it down to 75 MiB
51 2012-06-15 00:36:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: when chub and cblockstore are done i'm going to write a replacement blockstore that runs entirely in ram and uses only 200 MiB :p
52 2012-06-15 00:36:49 <sipa> (but can't serve full blocks)
53 2012-06-15 00:37:19 <BlueMatt> when they are done theres gonna be a ton of stuff...
54 2012-06-15 00:38:29 <sipa> hmm?
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56 2012-06-15 00:38:44 <BlueMatt> spv mode to begin with
57 2012-06-15 00:39:03 <sipa> oh sure, there's tons of things left to do
58 2012-06-15 00:40:59 <Matt_von_Mises> I can't install the bitcoin dependencies in OSX using macports. It fails building glib2 apparently. Is this a common occurrence?
59 2012-06-15 00:41:21 <sipa> but these numbers make me believe that the way forward is a block-verifying system that prunes entirely (but runs entirely in ram, and snapshots to disk every few blocks), with a separate subsystem to serve all or only recent full blocks
60 2012-06-15 00:41:43 <gavinandresen> I vaguely remember having issues with macports and glib2.... don't remember how I fixed it
61 2012-06-15 00:42:29 <gavinandresen> I've got: glib2 @2.32.3_0+universal (active)
62 2012-06-15 00:42:49 * sipa is quite excited about these numbers
63 2012-06-15 00:42:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: hmm...yea 84mb total size...
64 2012-06-15 00:43:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's serialized; an efficient in-memory-updatable form would be significantly larger
65 2012-06-15 00:43:29 <BlueMatt> well yea, but still
66 2012-06-15 00:43:52 <sipa> i hope i'm right that you can do without the actual full transactions
67 2012-06-15 00:44:17 <BlueMatt> will have to add more checkpoints
68 2012-06-15 00:44:29 <sipa> ?
69 2012-06-15 00:44:30 <BlueMatt> (or a more recent checkpoint)
70 2012-06-15 00:44:38 <BlueMatt> you can only prune up to latest checkpoint
71 2012-06-15 00:45:02 <sipa> well, no, you need the full blocks to be able to connect or disconnect them
72 2012-06-15 00:45:08 <sipa> but that's a separate thing
73 2012-06-15 00:45:22 <sipa> keep as many of those as you like
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75 2012-06-15 00:45:34 <sipa> i'm sure if you keep the latest 1000 you're fine
76 2012-06-15 00:45:48 <BlueMatt> yea...
77 2012-06-15 00:46:07 <sipa> but i'm *really* starting to like the idea of separating those two systems
78 2012-06-15 00:46:08 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: src/qt/test/uritests.cpp:50: error: integer constant is too large for âlongâ type
79 2012-06-15 00:46:20 <BlueMatt> heh, fun...
80 2012-06-15 00:46:23 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: on osx?
81 2012-06-15 00:46:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, compiling -arch i386
82 2012-06-15 00:47:06 <sipa> add ULL to it, or whatever macro we have for that
83 2012-06-15 00:47:29 <BlueMatt> heh, oops well thats just my stupidity, as sipa said
84 2012-06-15 00:48:01 <gavinandresen> doc/unit-tests.txt pushed
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86 2012-06-15 00:49:32 * sipa chuckles at the idea of kicking out bdb entirely
87 2012-06-15 00:52:01 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: adding LL to the constant makes it compile... but:
88 2012-06-15 00:52:08 <gavinandresen> FAIL! : URITests::uriTests() 'GUIUtil::parseBitcoinURI(uri, &rv)' returned FALSE. ()
89 2012-06-15 00:52:09 <gavinandresen> Loc: [src/qt/test/uritests.cpp(24)]
90 2012-06-15 00:53:56 <Matt_von_Mises> gavinandresen: I'm trying to install glib2 from: svn co -r 79276 http://svn.macports.org/repository/macports/trunk/dports/devel/glib2 According to an online source that works. I'll see if it does...
91 2012-06-15 00:54:24 <gavinandresen> Matt_von_Mises: did you try port install glib2 +universal ?
92 2012-06-15 00:55:20 <Matt_von_Mises> No, is that what you did?
93 2012-06-15 00:55:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nfc on that one, put some debug statements in src/qt/guiutil.cpp:parseBitcoinURI?
94 2012-06-15 00:56:02 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: gotta put the kids to bed, I'm opening an issue so "we" don't forget to fix it.
95 2012-06-15 00:56:06 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh great "Error: Failed to install ncurses"
96 2012-06-15 00:56:13 <Matt_von_Mises> I'll try the universal one...
97 2012-06-15 00:56:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Ill see if I can reproduce on linux...
98 2012-06-15 00:58:54 <Matt_von_Mises> The universal one fails. Will try to fix ncurses⦠Really annoying all this.
99 2012-06-15 00:59:07 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened issue 1468 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1468>
100 2012-06-15 00:59:09 <gavinandresen> Matt_von_Mises: I think that's what I did... I know I had to install some of the build infrastructure +universal because it didn't work with the way I've got the rest of macports setup (I've set it to compile -i386 and against the 10.5 SDKs for maximum binary compatibility)
101 2012-06-15 01:01:23 <sipa> actually, if we'd put the open txout in txindex.dat right now, it would become smaller than the useless chunk of debug data we keep in there now, and you could do full verification without even touching blk0001.dat
102 2012-06-15 01:01:33 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hmm...nope jenkins runs that testsuite all the time and is 32-bit, and my 64-bit system didnt turn up anything...its something mac-specific I guess, but...
103 2012-06-15 01:03:14 * sipa is too excited not to implement that tomorrow
104 2012-06-15 01:03:30 <BlueMatt> heh
105 2012-06-15 01:05:37 <gavinandresen> Matt_von_Mises: http://pastebin.com/RGZVhiYY <-- state of my Macports
106 2012-06-15 01:05:44 <sipa> (obviously, rescanning, connecting or disconnecting blocks would still require the full blocks)
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109 2012-06-15 01:06:29 <Matt_von_Mises> gavinandresen: Thanks for the help. Will hopefully get it all sorted.
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117 2012-06-15 01:14:33 <luke-jr> TD[gone]: BlueMatt: MtGox relays them on the network, but generally the ones we handle aren't accepted even for relaying due to insufficient fees or something
118 2012-06-15 01:14:42 <luke-jr> so in effect, it's only known by Eligius
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125 2012-06-15 01:43:29 <finway> I think pruning blkxxx.dat is the answer to SatoshiDICE problem.
126 2012-06-15 01:45:24 <luke-jr> finway: cannot be done
127 2012-06-15 01:46:04 <finway> luke-jr, so finally, we need to store petaBytes database ?
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129 2012-06-15 01:51:33 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: why did you broke bitcoin-watch ?
130 2012-06-15 01:52:20 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: blame DICE
131 2012-06-15 01:52:34 <TuxBlackEdo> luke-jr, double spend
132 2012-06-15 01:53:51 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: can't you just skip DICE ?
133 2012-06-15 01:54:42 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: patches welcome
134 2012-06-15 01:54:53 <TuxBlackEdo> [Tycho] luke-jr, can you guys set up a website where people can remove a transaction in the currently mined block?
135 2012-06-15 01:55:03 <TuxBlackEdo> and replace it with a new one?
136 2012-06-15 01:55:07 <[Tycho]> Remove ?
137 2012-06-15 01:55:10 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah
138 2012-06-15 01:55:15 <[Tycho]> For adding fees ?
139 2012-06-15 01:55:26 <TuxBlackEdo> no, just if i want to take back that transaction
140 2012-06-15 01:55:33 <TuxBlackEdo> and have its inputs sent somewhere else
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142 2012-06-15 01:55:42 <TuxBlackEdo> you could ask for a signmessage
143 2012-06-15 01:55:46 <[Tycho]> Sounds evil.
144 2012-06-15 01:55:59 <TuxBlackEdo> no... i would use it only for good things
145 2012-06-15 01:56:10 <luke-jr> â¦
146 2012-06-15 01:56:18 <luke-jr> TuxBlackEdo: you know that will cost at least 50 BTC, right?
147 2012-06-15 01:56:57 <TuxBlackEdo> what do you mean
148 2012-06-15 01:57:19 <TuxBlackEdo> i am asking about the current inprogress block
149 2012-06-15 01:57:44 <TuxBlackEdo> or are you asking for 50btc for an implementation?
150 2012-06-15 01:59:57 <luke-jr> o
151 2012-06-15 02:01:24 <[Tycho]> Is it dice now on the watch ?
152 2012-06-15 02:02:09 <luke-jr> shrug
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154 2012-06-15 02:02:13 <luke-jr> not like it's easy to tell
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158 2012-06-15 02:04:24 <TuxBlackEdo> ok
159 2012-06-15 02:04:29 <TuxBlackEdo> so [Tycho] luke-jr
160 2012-06-15 02:04:41 <TuxBlackEdo> when am i going to be able to change my transactions
161 2012-06-15 02:04:57 <[Tycho]> Do not want.
162 2012-06-15 02:05:02 <TuxBlackEdo> even if 20% of the times your guy's pools finds a block
163 2012-06-15 02:05:04 <luke-jr> TuxBlackEdo: if you're serious about paying for it, I'll do it
164 2012-06-15 02:05:09 <TuxBlackEdo> it still gives me an advantage
165 2012-06-15 02:05:15 <luke-jr> TuxBlackEdo: but it will require not removing outputs
166 2012-06-15 02:05:22 <luke-jr> or decreasing them
167 2012-06-15 02:05:31 <Matt_von_Mises> Is there supposed to be a lot of warnings when building the bitcoin tests?
168 2012-06-15 02:05:40 <TuxBlackEdo> luke-jr, that works
169 2012-06-15 02:06:43 <luke-jr> TuxBlackEdo: how much are you offering for me to write this? I usually charge 9-10 BTC/hr
170 2012-06-15 02:10:30 <TuxBlackEdo> i need to think about it
171 2012-06-15 02:10:33 <TuxBlackEdo> x_x
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247 2012-06-15 04:48:30 <gmaxwell> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2012/06/14/10319617.aspx
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249 2012-06-15 04:53:38 <TuxBlackEdo> gmaxwell, is this going to be implemented in the window's version of the bitcoin client?
250 2012-06-15 04:54:29 <gmaxwell> I'm linking to it to suggest it for consideration by people who are more familar with bitcoin on windows than I am.
251 2012-06-15 04:54:49 <gmaxwell> (so that it can try to shut down cleanly)
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255 2012-06-15 04:59:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: reason to not worry much about how crappy debian's bitcoin packages are: http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=bitcoin
256 2012-06-15 04:59:58 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 350 seems like a lot for just Debian?
257 2012-06-15 05:00:22 <luke-jr> about 1/4 of all 0.3 nodes
258 2012-06-15 05:00:46 <gmaxwell> Hm? it's 350 installed, 61 in active use out of like 122k.
259 2012-06-15 05:01:03 <gmaxwell> (well active use is 61-350, as some people have atime off)
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300 2012-06-15 07:19:52 <banshee12> What is it with my transactions taking so long to be included in a block today? :(
301 2012-06-15 07:21:10 <banshee12> Gave a way a bunch of btc but most of them are unconfirmed still...
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316 2012-06-15 08:15:12 <Geebus> I have a problem... could anyone offer insight into correct this error? http://i.imgur.com/ps3n0.png
317 2012-06-15 08:15:33 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
318 2012-06-15 08:15:45 <Geebus> I have ~15k transactions in my wallet... give or take.
319 2012-06-15 08:16:56 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1469 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1469>
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353 2012-06-15 10:04:35 <Nachtwind> Hi, stupid Question... are there multiple Addresses available for a private key?
354 2012-06-15 10:05:15 <MagicalTux> no
355 2012-06-15 10:05:20 <MagicalTux> a private key translates to only one address
356 2012-06-15 10:05:44 <Nachtwind> hm..
357 2012-06-15 10:05:51 <Nachtwind> ok, then i am doing something wrong *G*
358 2012-06-15 10:06:12 <Nachtwind> tried to add keys to bitcoinJ that i generated using vanitygen.. but i get different addresses
359 2012-06-15 10:06:35 <MagicalTux> heh
360 2012-06-15 10:07:03 <MagicalTux> you can try adding one on MtGox and see how it resolves, so you'll know where the issue comes from
361 2012-06-15 10:07:18 <Nachtwind> good point
362 2012-06-15 10:07:23 <MagicalTux> (note that if you do that, MtGox will keep it in memory and credit on your account any fund sent subsequently there)
363 2012-06-15 10:08:59 <Nachtwind> would you mind telling me where i can add a key to mtgox? havent been on the page in ages
364 2012-06-15 10:09:36 <Nachtwind> nvm found it
365 2012-06-15 10:10:12 <Nachtwind> mhm.... ok
366 2012-06-15 10:10:25 <Nachtwind> it translates right.. so i do something completely wrong in the bitcoinj part
367 2012-06-15 10:11:29 <MagicalTux> :)
368 2012-06-15 10:12:59 <Nachtwind> ok.. got it
369 2012-06-15 10:13:03 <Nachtwind> thanks for the help :)
370 2012-06-15 10:13:23 <Nachtwind> simple solution: Just dont cast something to something else and expect it to work if you dont know what you do ;)
371 2012-06-15 10:14:09 <MagicalTux> :D
372 2012-06-15 10:17:31 <sturles> I want to accept bitcoin payments to a web service, and notify the user as soon as coins are received. Before any confirmations. For security reasons I don't want a live wallet on the server. Is there some modified bitcoind or other tool which can monitor a list of addresses on the P2P network and trig as soon as one of the addresses receive a payment?
373 2012-06-15 10:18:35 <sturles> I want to keep the private keys on a completely separate server, which is offline except when I need the coins.
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376 2012-06-15 10:23:45 <yellowhat> i wanted to know about the new light client extensions.. does anyone know specifics about it?
377 2012-06-15 10:23:46 <yellowhat> for example, if a lightweight client is initialized with an existing private key but no knowledge of transactions or blocks - how would this be handled?
378 2012-06-15 10:25:11 Clipse has joined
379 2012-06-15 10:26:29 <yellowhat> as far as i understand the existing proposals this would not work well because it would need to know about old existing transactions to generate a new one. the bloom filters could not be used to query about old transactions but only lessen the network load for new incoming tx
380 2012-06-15 10:27:03 <sipa> yellowhat: rescanning always requures redownloading the chain
381 2012-06-15 10:27:12 <sipa> *requires
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383 2012-06-15 10:28:06 <yellowhat> well if i am a lightweit client with only a private key (where i suspect to have some bitcoins already loaded) it would make a lot of sense to ask: give me a list of unspent outputs matching the bloom filter.
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385 2012-06-15 10:28:38 <sipa> etotheipi had a proposal that would allow that
386 2012-06-15 10:28:56 <sipa> but in general it's something we must avoid, in my opinion
387 2012-06-15 10:29:04 devrandom has joined
388 2012-06-15 10:29:20 <sipa> and just generate keys on the device they are going to be used on
389 2012-06-15 10:29:45 <yellowhat> then i can easily display a balance sign transactions and do everything i need to do and afterwards forget everything else.
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392 2012-06-15 10:29:52 <yellowhat> why do you think its a bad idea?
393 2012-06-15 10:30:01 <sipa> it is a good idea
394 2012-06-15 10:30:30 <yellowhat> what do you specifically mean by "we must avoid"
395 2012-06-15 10:30:35 <sipa> but i think we should aim for frameworks in the future that do not require looking back at past transactions
396 2012-06-15 10:30:59 <sipa> in some cases it is unavoidable, like when recovering from a backup
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398 2012-06-15 10:31:45 <yellowhat> i have a very real use case that regulary requires it
399 2012-06-15 10:32:01 <sipa> yes, they certainly exist
400 2012-06-15 10:32:13 <sipa> which one in particular?
401 2012-06-15 10:32:31 jurov is now known as away!aktooj@84.245.71.31|jurov
402 2012-06-15 10:33:58 <yellowhat> i'm trying to work a software stack for the bitcoincard people. there will be android/windows/linux machines acting as gateways for the ocassionally visiting bitcoincard user. he will show up and tell the device: hey here is my address, please tell me what i can spend
403 2012-06-15 10:37:31 <yellowhat> so it will be impossible for the device to recan the blockchain. someone needs to have all outputs indexed by address such that he can use a bloom filter efficiently to query
404 2012-06-15 10:38:44 <yellowhat> and by "someone" i mean a full node / supernode on the network - not the gateway itself
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414 2012-06-15 10:57:47 <yellowhat> sipa, do you have a link the the etotheipi proposal?
415 2012-06-15 10:59:09 <jarpiain> yellowhat: casascius proposed address->block index in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45864.0
416 2012-06-15 10:59:37 <jarpiain> and I did some work on it but it's badly out of date now
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468 2012-06-15 13:02:17 <rebroad> bitcoin-qt seems to take up rather a lot of memory... >1.4Gb on my 3Gb laptop...
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476 2012-06-15 13:24:43 <gmaxwell> rebroad: I've only observed it taking a lot of memory when running a large number of concurrent connections.
477 2012-06-15 13:28:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: saw my calculations yesterday for storage of txids + txouts?
478 2012-06-15 13:29:37 <gmaxwell> About 84 megs sounded hard to believe!
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480 2012-06-15 13:30:06 <sipa> indeed
481 2012-06-15 13:30:25 <sipa> but i think it's correct
482 2012-06-15 13:30:29 <justmoon> sipa: where would one go to see those calculations? irc logs?
483 2012-06-15 13:30:35 <sipa> justmoon: yes
484 2012-06-15 13:30:46 <sipa> wait, let me just run it again and paste it somewher
485 2012-06-15 13:30:48 <jgarzik> here again... what is memory? process size includes a lot of shared library memory and other stuff mapped -- but not paged in
486 2012-06-15 13:31:06 <jgarzik> boost and glibc add to the total "process size", simply by linking in
487 2012-06-15 13:34:59 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
488 2012-06-15 13:36:11 <sipa> gmaxwell, justmoon: http://pastebin.com/EHEZNHFY
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491 2012-06-15 13:38:09 <justmoon> what is unspent txouts vs serialized unspent txout list?
492 2012-06-15 13:38:41 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
493 2012-06-15 13:38:42 <sipa> serialized unspent txout list includes transaction hashes, and a compact representation of which outputs are already spent
494 2012-06-15 13:39:06 <sipa> that's basically the size of all information you need to be able to do full transaction validation
495 2012-06-15 13:39:17 agricocb has joined
496 2012-06-15 13:39:17 <sipa> (if received from a trusted source)
497 2012-06-15 13:41:41 <justmoon> is that 84 MB figure with compression or without?
498 2012-06-15 13:41:45 <sipa> without
499 2012-06-15 13:41:58 <justmoon> that's surprising indeed
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501 2012-06-15 13:42:28 <sipa> an in-memory data structure for that, which allows fast updating will easily be twice as large, though
502 2012-06-15 13:42:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: might make sense to start implementing it as purely a caching mechenism.
503 2012-06-15 13:43:09 <sipa> i really hope i'm correct that you don't need anything but txouts to do transaction validation
504 2012-06-15 13:45:13 <yellowhat> what kind of data structure is used for that 84 MB figure?
505 2012-06-15 13:45:29 <sipa> none at all; it's the size of a compact serialization
506 2012-06-15 13:46:06 <Prattler> 100 MB blockchain! woohoo!! (party)
507 2012-06-15 13:46:08 <yellowhat> but you are storing the output addresses? or pointers to a centralized list of addresses?
508 2012-06-15 13:46:39 <justmoon> output addresses are part of the txout, so yes those will be in there
509 2012-06-15 13:46:43 <sipa> it contains the full txouts, so yes that includes those
510 2012-06-15 13:46:54 <sipa> and no, no special tricks like using a central pool
511 2012-06-15 13:47:25 <justmoon> speaking of a central pool, can you generate those 84 MB as a file? I'd love to see what bzip does with it
512 2012-06-15 13:47:47 <justmoon> given the amount of address reuse (that matt wants to "fix") you might get some meaningful compression
513 2012-06-15 13:48:07 <sipa> the only compressible thing in it will be the txout amounts, and the repeated standard txout scripts
514 2012-06-15 13:48:21 <osxorgate> bitcoin-qt is syncing the last 100 or so blocks.. taking forever, at least half an hour and i'm at 25 more left. is my machine really that bad?
515 2012-06-15 13:48:22 <justmoon> precisely
516 2012-06-15 13:48:24 <sipa> so i guess maybe it can be reduced by megabyte or two
517 2012-06-15 13:48:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: you could do compression of public keys that aren't compressed.
518 2012-06-15 13:48:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: good point
519 2012-06-15 13:48:48 <justmoon> sipa: I wouldn't be so confident about estimating how much that will be
520 2012-06-15 13:48:50 <sipa> but at 84 MiB, i hardly care...
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524 2012-06-15 13:49:25 <sipa> anyway, i'm trying to write a bitcoind that uses a database with that information for validation
525 2012-06-15 13:49:53 <sipa> you'll still need the full blocks for rescanning or reorganisations
526 2012-06-15 13:50:09 <sipa> but for many use cases, i think it'd suffice to only keep the last 1000 or so
527 2012-06-15 13:52:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: there are hardly any public keys in the txouts...
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538 2012-06-15 13:55:55 <gmaxwell> hm. you could go further if you did txid,h(txout) and had a way to get peers to alwats provide the outs with the txn.
539 2012-06-15 13:56:22 <justmoon> gmaxwell: see my IMTUO proposal where I explore that option
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541 2012-06-15 13:56:37 <justmoon> my conclusion was that network bandwidth may actually be more valuable than storage space
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543 2012-06-15 13:57:36 <gmaxwell> I dunno, many txouts will never be spent.
544 2012-06-15 13:57:52 <justmoon> sipa: there are 1678784 txouts and most of them are standard txouts I assume, so couldn't you save 1.6m * 5 bytes = 8 MB by leaving out those standardized bytes? 0x76 0xA9 0x14 ... 0x88 0xAC
545 2012-06-15 13:59:13 <sipa> justmoon: yup
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547 2012-06-15 14:00:09 <sipa> i wonder what bdb's overhead is, if i store store a map txid -> unspent_txouts in it
548 2012-06-15 14:01:08 <sipa> actually, it's almost a pity that txids are 256 bit... that's a non-negligable percentage
549 2012-06-15 14:01:24 <someone42> sipa: the size of your serialized unspent txout is about the same as piuk's account ledger (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52859.40)
550 2012-06-15 14:01:41 <gmaxwell> As it should be.
551 2012-06-15 14:02:03 <sipa> which means you don't gain much by trying to maintain a balance per address
552 2012-06-15 14:02:22 <gmaxwell> Account ledgers are a bad idea â bitcoin has zilcho privacy if you don't use pseudorandom addresses.
553 2012-06-15 14:02:31 <sipa> indeed
554 2012-06-15 14:02:42 <sipa> it's side effect of currently using key id's as addresses
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566 2012-06-15 14:19:10 <sipa> justmoon, gmaxwell: 67 MiB!
567 2012-06-15 14:19:22 <justmoon> well done :)
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574 2012-06-15 14:22:42 <da2ce7> 1000 things to do.... the time of 10
575 2012-06-15 14:22:53 <justmoon> da2ce7: cloning ftw
576 2012-06-15 14:23:06 <da2ce7> :)
577 2012-06-15 14:23:14 <justmoon> also protip: stay out of irc :P
578 2012-06-15 14:23:20 * sipa parallellizes da2ce7
579 2012-06-15 14:23:35 <justmoon> "scale out, not up!"
580 2012-06-15 14:23:45 <sipa> oh wait, seems i just made you female
581 2012-06-15 14:23:58 * da2ce7 moves to #opentransactions where all the action happens...
582 2012-06-15 14:24:18 <justmoon> that channel is just for nerds, this channel were the cool people are!
583 2012-06-15 14:24:23 <justmoon> where*
584 2012-06-15 14:24:32 <justmoon> is* where
585 2012-06-15 14:24:39 <justmoon> also the people who can't spell apparently
586 2012-06-15 14:24:46 <sipa> wait... nerds's can't be cool? :(
587 2012-06-15 14:25:03 <justmoon> don't put words in my mouth :P
588 2012-06-15 14:25:11 <justmoon> I say enough stupid things as it is
589 2012-06-15 14:26:03 <jgarzik> darn, TD just disappeared
590 2012-06-15 14:26:45 <da2ce7> with your wallet format I can pick a 'random position' on a 'observe only' chain... then tell the person with the private chain that position.
591 2012-06-15 14:26:50 <jgarzik> sipa: so, I agree with TD that adding 'mempool' P2P command would be a simple and useful first step towards [diagnostics | SPV | filtering]
592 2012-06-15 14:27:00 <jgarzik> sipa: so... return a huge 'inv' from that?
593 2012-06-15 14:27:22 <jgarzik> think a 10,000 entry inv or whatever
594 2012-06-15 14:28:24 paraipan has joined
595 2012-06-15 14:30:53 <sipa> jgarzik: just use pushinventory or something like that; the network code will combine it into a single inv message
596 2012-06-15 14:31:09 <jgarzik> ok
597 2012-06-15 14:33:16 <da2ce7> sipa: I had the idea where we could have a new kind of bitcoin address where the sender 'picks at random' the public key they are sending to... then sends the 'position' of that public key to the holder of the extended private key.
598 2012-06-15 14:33:40 _Fireball has joined
599 2012-06-15 14:33:57 <sipa> da2ce7: addresses shouldn't be chosen by a sender
600 2012-06-15 14:34:08 <da2ce7> so by publishing publicly this bitcoin address... without know each position of every sender... you cannot track the coins.
601 2012-06-15 14:34:14 <jgarzik> sipa: does pushinventory broadcast to all connected, or just the requestor?
602 2012-06-15 14:34:17 * jgarzik looks further
603 2012-06-15 14:34:24 <sipa> jgarzik: oh, to all, i suppose
604 2012-06-15 14:34:29 <sipa> right
605 2012-06-15 14:35:20 <sipa> da2ce7: if you're going to introduce a communication step anyway, there are better ways to protect privacy
606 2012-06-15 14:36:46 <da2ce7> sipa: the position is one-way communcation and dosn't matter if it is made public:
607 2012-06-15 14:36:51 <da2ce7> kinda like ( public extended key ) > random 256bit position > bitcoin address.
608 2012-06-15 14:36:55 <da2ce7> send to bitcoin address.
609 2012-06-15 14:37:00 Facefox has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
610 2012-06-15 14:37:05 <da2ce7> then send in email the random 256bit position
611 2012-06-15 14:37:31 <sipa> it is one-way, and offline
612 2012-06-15 14:37:38 <sipa> which may be useful in some scenarios
613 2012-06-15 14:39:17 <da2ce7> that means I can convince the seller that I sent the bitcoins... just by sending that 256bit position in a email... or however.
614 2012-06-15 14:40:23 * da2ce7 could (yet again) be missing a fundermental part of bitcoin... but I was just wondering if such an idea is at-all rational.
615 2012-06-15 14:43:59 <BlueMatt> are our merkle trees deterministic for a given set of transaction hashes? ie do they have to be place in a certain rder?
616 2012-06-15 14:44:28 <justmoon> if the set is in a given order the merkle tree will be too
617 2012-06-15 14:44:31 <BlueMatt> placed in a certain order
618 2012-06-15 14:44:43 <BlueMatt> justmoon: thats my question, is the set in a given order?
619 2012-06-15 14:44:47 <sipa> BlueMatt: no
620 2012-06-15 14:44:50 <BlueMatt> darn...
621 2012-06-15 14:45:09 <sipa> and it's quite hard to come up with a canonical order
622 2012-06-15 14:45:09 <BlueMatt> that would have been really nice
623 2012-06-15 14:45:16 <justmoon> now I'm curious what cool optimization you have come up with :D
624 2012-06-15 14:45:28 <BlueMatt> sipa: sorted by hash?
625 2012-06-15 14:45:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, you can do that, but that'd mean a lot more recalculations
626 2012-06-15 14:45:50 <BlueMatt> justmoon: well you just dont need to transfer the merkle tree, you can just give a list of txes and the remote side would have it
627 2012-06-15 14:45:58 <sipa> as every insert will essentially mean recalculating the whole thing
628 2012-06-15 14:46:05 Facefox has joined
629 2012-06-15 14:46:13 <justmoon> well, can't you just give the list of txs in the correct order?
630 2012-06-15 14:46:17 <BlueMatt> true, but its not a huge deal to work around
631 2012-06-15 14:47:19 <sipa> i wonder if you can build a merkle tree using Hash(a & b, a | b) instead of Hash(a, b)
632 2012-06-15 14:47:47 <sipa> oh, right; that'd only make a single node order-invariant
633 2012-06-15 14:47:50 <sipa> not the entire tree
634 2012-06-15 14:48:38 <BlueMatt> justmoon: yep, dur
635 2012-06-15 14:49:19 * da2ce7 geeks out... and waves at sipa and justmoon :) g2g chat later :)
636 2012-06-15 14:49:26 <justmoon> bye son!
637 2012-06-15 14:53:57 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
638 2012-06-15 15:01:15 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jgarzik opened pull request 1470 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1470>
639 2012-06-15 15:03:55 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: should we bump protocol version to indicate support for mempool?
640 2012-06-15 15:06:12 <BlueMatt> or should I be asking oh great version king sipa?
641 2012-06-15 15:06:42 <sipa> ACK on version bump for that
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658 2012-06-15 15:40:56 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, sipa: well, a version bump is a consideration, yes. Three options, as I see it: (a) bump version, (b) add a "features" command, (c) rely on protocol's natural ability to ignore unknown commands for extensibility
659 2012-06-15 15:41:35 <jgarzik> adding 'features' command is the best option IMO, possibly with a version bump for -that-. features returns a list of strings indicating various features present/absent.
660 2012-06-15 15:42:06 <gmaxwell> if I need a particular (rare) feature must I then crawl the whole network to find it?
661 2012-06-15 15:42:07 <jgarzik> we don't need to bump the protocol version each time we add a P2P command, when the implementation is fully capable of ignoring unknown commands
662 2012-06-15 15:42:56 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: if you need a rare protocol version you must crawl the whole network to find it. zero effective difference between proposals.
663 2012-06-15 15:47:50 Joric has joined
664 2012-06-15 15:49:24 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: mandatory features could be a service bit, which is broadcast with the address type
665 2012-06-15 15:51:08 <sipa> jgarzik: except that nServices is relayed and stored in addrman
666 2012-06-15 15:51:31 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: right, thats where i was going.
667 2012-06-15 15:51:32 <sipa> so i suppose nServices is actually better
668 2012-06-15 15:52:04 <luke-jr> I see no reason to use it for *this* particular change tho
669 2012-06-15 15:53:16 <sipa> also, the nServices could would need to be tested and probably extended
670 2012-06-15 15:54:53 <luke-jr> maybe nServices assignments should be temporary: another feature negotiation is the "real" mechanism, and once FeatureX has enough adoption, its nServices bit is reallocated (inverted) for future use
671 2012-06-15 15:55:00 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
672 2012-06-15 15:55:09 <luke-jr> eg, 8 bits later we use "if it's 0, FeatureY is supported"
673 2012-06-15 15:55:29 <luke-jr> at least for upgrade-based features
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680 2012-06-15 16:03:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the way I see as good for mempool is version bump and !fClient
681 2012-06-15 16:03:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: that way you can tell from what is relayed and stored in addr
682 2012-06-15 16:04:00 <BlueMatt> and no, we dont need a version bump for every feature, but as long as it makes sense, we might as well
683 2012-06-15 16:04:47 <BlueMatt> and I see little reason to not version bump here, and no reason to waste one of our services flags, since all !fClients that are of a certain version should be able to handle mempool
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694 2012-06-15 16:20:07 <gavinandresen> Morning everybody. I'm hacking up a version of bitcoind to record how fast or slow transactions stay in the memory pool before getting into a block. Nobody's already done that, right?
695 2012-06-15 16:21:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I know I saw a site doing it
696 2012-06-15 16:21:35 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: bitcoinstats.org
697 2012-06-15 16:21:38 <luke-jr> http://bitcoinstats.org/
698 2012-06-15 16:21:40 <luke-jr> yeah
699 2012-06-15 16:21:41 t7_ has joined
700 2012-06-15 16:22:05 <gavinandresen> I need (fee,size,priority,time_in_mempool)
701 2012-06-15 16:22:23 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
702 2012-06-15 16:22:31 t7_ is now known as t7
703 2012-06-15 16:22:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: priority is dynamic
704 2012-06-15 16:22:33 Diablo-D3 has joined
705 2012-06-15 16:22:47 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: and changes a bit with txn_prio pullreq
706 2012-06-15 16:22:54 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
707 2012-06-15 16:22:54 <gavinandresen> right, priority when it entered the pool
708 2012-06-15 16:22:55 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: transactions should expire after maybe 144 blocks. (blocks that contain expired tx should be rejected)
709 2012-06-15 16:23:07 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: okey dokey
710 2012-06-15 16:23:29 <luke-jr> ThomasV: â¦
711 2012-06-15 16:24:46 <gmaxwell> ^ I second that.
712 2012-06-15 16:25:26 <gavinandresen> ("okey dokey" is gavinspeak for "i don't want to think hard about that right now, but my knee-jerk reaction is that it is a bad idea.")
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718 2012-06-15 16:26:09 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: that's not what okey dokey sounds like
719 2012-06-15 16:26:20 <gavinandresen> okey dokey
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721 2012-06-15 16:27:03 <ThomasV> if transactions expire after a day, users have a guarantee that they can still reuse their coins. it would feel safer than the current limbo
722 2012-06-15 16:27:21 <luke-jr> ThomasV: that's a guarantee they shouldn't get.
723 2012-06-15 16:27:31 <luke-jr> and trying to do it is asking for forks
724 2012-06-15 16:28:00 <ThomasV> luke-jr: your hashing power is too small for that :)
725 2012-06-15 16:28:09 <luke-jr> ThomasV: it has nothing to do with hashing power
726 2012-06-15 16:28:15 <ThomasV> lol I know
727 2012-06-15 16:28:39 <luke-jr> instead, users can be enabled to select transactions and right-click "Replace" and create a new txn using the same inputs
728 2012-06-15 16:28:42 <ThomasV> anyway, the memorypool market should be improved
729 2012-06-15 16:28:54 <luke-jr> once that transaction is confirmed, the others can be marked as invalid
730 2012-06-15 16:29:48 <ThomasV> luke-jr: that too. but that's not a fork
731 2012-06-15 16:30:01 <ThomasV> it's something we can do right now
732 2012-06-15 16:30:42 <ThomasV> if the new tx has a higher fee, miners will naturally prefer it
733 2012-06-15 16:31:01 <luke-jr> ThomasV: forks are bad
734 2012-06-15 16:31:25 <ThomasV> luke-jr: expiring transactions is not a bad fork
735 2012-06-15 16:32:28 <luke-jr> ThomasV: expiring transactions hard is a "forks happening every day" scenario
736 2012-06-15 16:32:39 <ThomasV> the uncertainty about your coins staying in limbo for an undetermined amount of time is bad. it does not help building confidence in the currency
737 2012-06-15 16:32:45 <luke-jr> because nodes do not and will not agree on when they expire
738 2012-06-15 16:32:57 <sipa> it don't see how expiring transactions from the memory pool can cause forks
739 2012-06-15 16:33:09 <luke-jr> ThomasV: then propose a patch that automatically does a send-to-change of "expired" txns
740 2012-06-15 16:33:16 <luke-jr> sipa: he wants to make blocks including them invalid
741 2012-06-15 16:33:31 <sipa> ThomasV: are you?
742 2012-06-15 16:33:42 <ThomasV> yes
743 2012-06-15 16:33:43 <luke-jr> [16:19:27] <ThomasV> gavinandresen: transactions should expire after maybe 144 blocks. (blocks that contain expired tx should be rejected)
744 2012-06-15 16:33:48 <sipa> oh
745 2012-06-15 16:33:51 <sipa> that's a horrible idea
746 2012-06-15 16:33:54 <ThomasV> why?
747 2012-06-15 16:34:08 <sipa> the validity of a transaction can never turn from valid to invalid once it is in a block
748 2012-06-15 16:34:23 <sipa> otherwise reorganisations could lead to massive chains of transactions becoming invalid
749 2012-06-15 16:34:28 Facefox has joined
750 2012-06-15 16:34:49 <BlueMatt> expiring txes from memory pool after N is a good idea, rejecting blocks based on that is broken
751 2012-06-15 16:34:56 <sipa> what BlueMatt said
752 2012-06-15 16:35:20 <ThomasV> I don't get it. what is the difference?
753 2012-06-15 16:35:45 <luke-jr> I think we can get ThomasV's desired behaviour with an automatic send-to-change in the client
754 2012-06-15 16:35:47 <BlueMatt> if you reject blocks based on that, individual nodes can disagree about the validity of a block, which is not good
755 2012-06-15 16:36:09 <luke-jr> ThomasV: nodes don't know the time a transaction was broadcast
756 2012-06-15 16:36:18 <luke-jr> ThomasV: they only know when they received it - which can vary greatly
757 2012-06-15 16:36:19 <ThomasV> wait, that's not what I meant
758 2012-06-15 16:36:28 <ThomasV> you want to put the block number in the tx
759 2012-06-15 16:36:51 <luke-jr> ok, but that still has the problem sipa pointed out
760 2012-06-15 16:37:03 <sipa> ThomasV: there are several interpretations of what you said above, but i think all of them are flawed (but maybe i miss one)
761 2012-06-15 16:37:24 <sipa> the worst case interpretation is that every output coin must be spent within 144 blocks, or it becomes invalid
762 2012-06-15 16:37:37 <ThomasV> I said that blocks should be rejected so that the owner of the coins knows for sure that he can reuse them
763 2012-06-15 16:37:59 <sipa> ok, specify me the exact rule for rejecting a transaction
764 2012-06-15 16:38:06 <sipa> eh, a block
765 2012-06-15 16:38:14 <jgarzik> back from lunch
766 2012-06-15 16:38:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: version bump does not make much sense, as a memory pool is not a requirement of a network node
767 2012-06-15 16:39:02 topace has joined
768 2012-06-15 16:39:05 <BlueMatt> no, but no network nodes of a given protocol version will not have mempool
769 2012-06-15 16:39:06 <ThomasV> sipa: include exation height in the tx. block that contains expired tx is rejected
770 2012-06-15 16:39:08 <jgarzik> thus "mempool" command may simply be absent (we don't want to require thin nodes to implement commands that simply return an empty vector)
771 2012-06-15 16:39:13 <ThomasV> *expiration*
772 2012-06-15 16:39:26 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: bump version for "feature" message, discover from there
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776 2012-06-15 16:39:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: but if (fClient) mempool should not be implemented, hence why I think a check makes sense
777 2012-06-15 16:39:48 <jgarzik> or really we should just go ahead with "list-commands" command, which can do the same thing
778 2012-06-15 16:39:51 <sipa> ThomasV: NAK; what if there is a reorganisation that moves a transaction over its expiration time?
779 2012-06-15 16:39:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: and returning is the same as not implementing
780 2012-06-15 16:40:05 <sipa> ThomasV: it would mean invalidating everything that depends on it, and was already confirmed
781 2012-06-15 16:40:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes... and that then does not help with detection
782 2012-06-15 16:40:30 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: when there is more than one full node implementation, it makes sense to not do so, but while there is only one it doesnt make sense to add a services flag just for mempool
783 2012-06-15 16:40:31 <luke-jr> sipa: would my alternative implementation work?
784 2012-06-15 16:41:03 <sipa> luke-jr: can you elaborate
785 2012-06-15 16:41:14 <BlueMatt> anyway, it really isnt a big deal either way, just do something so that nodes can tell if a given node has mempool from the info forwarded via addr messages
786 2012-06-15 16:41:25 <luke-jr> sipa: after N blocks, the client automatically rebroadcasts or broadcasts a send-to-self-change-address based on user config
787 2012-06-15 16:41:39 <ThomasV> sipa: by definition, such a reorg would not "move" the tx, it would not be allowed to contain it anymore
788 2012-06-15 16:41:40 <luke-jr> sipa: when the latter is confirmed, it shows the originals as invalid
789 2012-06-15 16:42:17 <sipa> ThomasV: exactly; and that means invalidating everything that depended on it
790 2012-06-15 16:42:54 <sipa> ThomasV: right now, a reorganisation introduced a renewed chance for double-spending, but in case of an honest sender, 0 chance for invalidation
791 2012-06-15 16:43:05 <sipa> ThomasV: with your rule, that would change
792 2012-06-15 16:44:00 <ThomasV> sipa: I see. but is that a big deal?
793 2012-06-15 16:44:22 <luke-jr> "your transaction got reversed for no reason; please resend"
794 2012-06-15 16:44:46 <luke-jr> ThomasV: is that a serious question?
795 2012-06-15 16:45:03 <sipa> i really don't want confirmed transactions to be reversed
796 2012-06-15 16:45:22 <sipa> especially since gets confirmations is imho the responsibility of the receiver and not of the sender
797 2012-06-15 16:45:26 <ThomasV> it seems to me that the benefits outweight the inconvenience, unless you set a ridiculously small expiration interval
798 2012-06-15 16:45:31 <sipa> and the receiver *cannot* create a new transaction
799 2012-06-15 16:46:12 <luke-jr> I don't see any benefit to expiring transactions.
800 2012-06-15 16:46:22 <luke-jr> at the high-level user end
801 2012-06-15 16:46:36 <luke-jr> (at the low-level, the benefit is so the user can add fees)
802 2012-06-15 16:48:11 <jgarzik> <BlueMatt> just do something so that nodes can tell if a given node has mempool from the info forwarded via addr messages <<-- why, specifically?
803 2012-06-15 16:48:33 <BlueMatt> so as an spv client you dont have to scan the network to find a mempool-responding node
804 2012-06-15 16:48:33 <jgarzik> because it sounds like you want a higher level rule
805 2012-06-15 16:48:43 <jgarzik> e.g. "I am a full node"
806 2012-06-15 16:48:47 <BlueMatt> I mean you can just live without it, but it would be nice...
807 2012-06-15 16:49:03 <jgarzik> mempool-responding is too fine-grained to advertise. "I provide services to SPV" is not.
808 2012-06-15 16:49:21 <BlueMatt> the fClient assert -> The idea is as long as its the reference implementation, we make it clear that spv clients should not be responding to mempool requests
809 2012-06-15 16:49:24 <jgarzik> because I promise you, there will be many more details required of SPV-servicing nodes
810 2012-06-15 16:49:41 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: agreed, hence why I said just make it a requirement for full nodes of a given version
811 2012-06-15 16:50:07 <BlueMatt> (because its not like full nodes of a given version /wont/ implement it)
812 2012-06-15 16:50:31 <jgarzik> in general fClient is the wrong direction
813 2012-06-15 16:50:39 <jgarzik> we need fServer / fFullNode
814 2012-06-15 16:51:01 <jgarzik> you assert that you -have- resources, and everything else may legally be a subset
815 2012-06-15 16:51:16 <sipa> jgarzik, BlueMatt: i'm implementing my "ultra pruned" idea (which means only retaining unspent txouts + txids permanently, and entirely separate keeping some or all full blocks available); if that works out to be useful, a further splitup of services may be useful
816 2012-06-15 16:52:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: for that, a nServices field makes sense (!fClient should always be only for full-block serving nodes imo)
817 2012-06-15 16:52:56 <sipa> it may make keeping a merkle structure for those unspent txouts viable, and if we can put that in coinbases
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819 2012-06-15 16:53:09 <jgarzik> "I'm a crippled client" bits tend to be less useful than "I have certain added features" bits, when widely advertising said bits
820 2012-06-15 16:53:23 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: alright, well as long as we dont waste umpteen nServices fields for parts of fSPVServingNode and as long as we dont end up with a version that has part of the final fSPVServingNode and not all of it (which just gets confusing)
821 2012-06-15 16:53:44 <sipa> yes, i think the current bit0 flag should be redefined to "i do everything"; and then define a few more specific subset bits
822 2012-06-15 16:53:52 <jgarzik> yes
823 2012-06-15 16:54:02 <sipa> bits that say "i do not X" are bad
824 2012-06-15 16:54:09 <jgarzik> correct
825 2012-06-15 16:54:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: agreed, and we dont have any of those atm, so...
826 2012-06-15 16:54:23 <sipa> (especially since the address managing codes automatically ORs them together)
827 2012-06-15 16:54:54 <BlueMatt> !fClient is actually a 1 iirc, and it should continue to defined I have full blocks for serving to old nodes, was my point
828 2012-06-15 16:54:54 <gribble> Error: "fClient" is not a valid command.
829 2012-06-15 16:54:58 Facefox has joined
830 2012-06-15 16:55:08 * BlueMatt kicks gribble
831 2012-06-15 16:57:01 <sipa> btw: compressed txout data set to less than 70 MiB already :)
832 2012-06-15 16:57:26 Cherothald has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
833 2012-06-15 16:57:29 <gavinandresen> !fU
834 2012-06-15 16:57:29 <gribble> Error: "fU" is not a valid command.
835 2012-06-15 16:57:33 <jgarzik> pfrom->fClient = !(pfrom->nServices & NODE_NETWORK)
836 2012-06-15 16:57:48 TD has joined
837 2012-06-15 16:58:00 <BlueMatt> yea, NODE_NETWORK, thats what it was
838 2012-06-15 16:58:42 * BlueMatt -> food
839 2012-06-15 16:59:09 * sipa too
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877 2012-06-15 18:14:26 <luke-jr> hmm
878 2012-06-15 18:14:42 <luke-jr> will I regret asking Diapolo to take over coincontrol? :P
879 2012-06-15 18:15:32 <Joric> luke-jr, thought it was done by coderrr(r)?
880 2012-06-15 18:15:45 <luke-jr> Joric: once upon a time
881 2012-06-15 18:16:24 imsaguy2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
882 2012-06-15 18:17:36 <Joric> rewatching good wife episode about bitcoins
883 2012-06-15 18:17:38 <Joric> '- Is leakage inevitable? - Leakage is never inevitable. C++ allows for some restrictions based on the complexity of the leakage.'
884 2012-06-15 18:17:43 <Joric> better use C++!
885 2012-06-15 18:17:57 <luke-jr> â¦
886 2012-06-15 18:20:44 terry has joined
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889 2012-06-15 18:25:29 <sturles> I'll repeat a question from earlier now that people are awake: I want to accept bitcoin payments to a web service, and notify the user as soon as coins are received. Before any confirmations. For security reasons I don't want a live wallet on the server. Is there some modified bitcoind or other tool which can monitor a list of addresses on the P2P network and trig as soon as one of the addresses receive a payment?
890 2012-06-15 18:25:44 <sturles> I want to keep the private keys on a completely separate server, which is offline except when I need the coins.
891 2012-06-15 18:29:33 <gavinandresen> sturles: easiest way right now would be to encrypt the wallet offline with a 256-bit random password, then use the encrypted wallet as the live wallet. Never unencrypt it on the live server.
892 2012-06-15 18:30:18 <sturles> Of course! That would work. Thanks!
893 2012-06-15 18:30:36 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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896 2012-06-15 18:35:26 <sturles> Is there a way to stream listtransactions or get a signal when a transaction arrives to a know address, or do I need to poll?
897 2012-06-15 18:37:01 <gavinandresen> sturles: you need to poll. -blocknotify will tell you when new blocks appear, but there is no api yet for new transaction notification
898 2012-06-15 18:42:17 <sturles> Would it be a simple patch for a novice C programmer with only slight knowledge of C++, or should I just forget about it and poll?
899 2012-06-15 18:43:13 <luke-jr> sturles: jgarzik has a filter thing
900 2012-06-15 18:48:28 maqr has joined
901 2012-06-15 18:48:36 <sturles> This one? https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/commit/102b1be44dcb0d2645ba1e32fdcb226c6febcdd2
902 2012-06-15 18:49:22 <luke-jr> no, that's old
903 2012-06-15 18:49:29 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1386 has the latest one
904 2012-06-15 18:53:03 <sturles> Thanks. I'll test.
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917 2012-06-15 19:28:08 <Joric> ctrl+f 1dice on http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/
918 2012-06-15 19:28:17 <Joric> sick
919 2012-06-15 19:28:32 <gmaxwell> This isn't news.
920 2012-06-15 19:29:32 <Joric> gambling bots? seems the stupidiest idea ever
921 2012-06-15 19:29:55 <gmaxwell> Yep.
922 2012-06-15 19:30:24 Hasbro has joined
923 2012-06-15 19:31:05 <gmaxwell> Prior conversation on OTC suggests that a lot of people are failing at math and actually thinking that "Martingale" turns the expectation positive.
924 2012-06-15 19:32:15 <gmaxwell> (with people like bitcoin "fund managers" writing bots for this. People are even selling bots for it.)
925 2012-06-15 19:32:58 <bogodyson> lol
926 2012-06-15 19:33:05 <bogodyson> i love those kinda people gmaxwell
927 2012-06-15 19:33:26 <gmaxwell> Suckers?
928 2012-06-15 19:33:27 <bogodyson> cause its kinda funny when their assumptions lead them to fall spectacularly hard on their face
929 2012-06-15 19:33:42 <Joric> it's the same classical gambler's fallacy, right?
930 2012-06-15 19:33:58 <Diablo-D3> "fund manager"
931 2012-06-15 19:34:03 <gmaxwell> Yes, or at least closely related.
932 2012-06-15 19:34:05 <Diablo-D3> you mean 5 lines of perl.
933 2012-06-15 19:34:38 <copumpkin> wtf
934 2012-06-15 19:34:45 <copumpkin> a martingale bot?
935 2012-06-15 19:34:49 <TuxBlackEdo> people still use perl?
936 2012-06-15 19:34:53 <copumpkin> ಠ_à²
937 2012-06-15 19:35:20 <Diablo-D3> I do :<
938 2012-06-15 19:35:21 <gmaxwell> Joric: that betting practice turns a game with a high odds of small loss to a game with low odds of enormous loss. People confuse the sequence of wins they get for something positive and then are confused when they wipe out on their sure thing betting strategy.
939 2012-06-15 19:36:11 <gmaxwell> Joric: also, people actually misunderstand randomness. I ran a study a while back that showed people pairs of sequences like ABBABABAAABABA and asked which one they through was more or less random.
940 2012-06-15 19:36:39 <gmaxwell> And I got 10:1 preference for a very not random sequenceâ one where long runs of a single letter were artifically removed.
941 2012-06-15 19:36:54 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: really?
942 2012-06-15 19:37:04 <gmaxwell> So when people imagine their random gambling outcomes they don't forsee runs of a dozen losses that would take millions in bets to recover from.
943 2012-06-15 19:37:10 <Diablo-D3> arent all random sequences... random?
944 2012-06-15 19:37:40 <Karmaon> what that makes no sense.
945 2012-06-15 19:37:52 <Joric> they all equal probability if i remember right
946 2012-06-15 19:38:00 <Diablo-D3> I mean, if you showed me a bunch of strings
947 2012-06-15 19:38:04 <Diablo-D3> asking me if I thought it looked random
948 2012-06-15 19:38:10 <Diablo-D3> for any given string, I would say yes.
949 2012-06-15 19:38:57 <Diablo-D3> even if you showed me strings that only have A through E in them, and one of them had a Z
950 2012-06-15 19:39:04 <Diablo-D3> the machine generating it had a random failure.
951 2012-06-15 19:39:38 <Karmaon> is aaaaaa more or less random than bbbbbbb? i don't know.
952 2012-06-15 19:39:46 <Diablo-D3> Karmaon: they're both random
953 2012-06-15 19:39:58 <Karmaon> maybe you changed all the letters of the second set to b.
954 2012-06-15 19:39:58 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/cgi-bin/random0.py < one version of the test. I had a good couple hundred people take it in varrious forms.
955 2012-06-15 19:40:01 <Diablo-D3> show me the entire text of the constitution?
956 2012-06-15 19:40:09 <Diablo-D3> its likely randomly generated.
957 2012-06-15 19:40:16 <gmaxwell> And the results were reliable and repeatable however I asked the question or laid it out.
958 2012-06-15 19:40:28 * Diablo-D3 takes gmaxwell's test
959 2012-06-15 19:40:31 <gmaxwell> People don't believe actually uniformly random squences are random.
960 2012-06-15 19:40:42 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I do
961 2012-06-15 19:40:46 <Diablo-D3> infact they're bastardly
962 2012-06-15 19:40:47 <Diablo-D3> I hate them
963 2012-06-15 19:40:54 <Karmaon> gmaxwell: that link is asking for abuse.
964 2012-06-15 19:40:54 <Diablo-D3> but I do believe they are random
965 2012-06-15 19:40:55 <gmaxwell> Well you're tainted now, so thats no good.
966 2012-06-15 19:40:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it's how the brain works. we match patterns instinctually.
967 2012-06-15 19:41:04 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: that test makes no sense
968 2012-06-15 19:41:08 <Diablo-D3> why do I have to choose?
969 2012-06-15 19:41:11 <Diablo-D3> they are both equally random
970 2012-06-15 19:41:22 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: they are not equally random. One is less random.
971 2012-06-15 19:41:35 <TuxBlackEdo> gmaxwell, just like tests back in college.. i am stuck on the first problem x_x
972 2012-06-15 19:41:42 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I mean
973 2012-06-15 19:41:50 <Diablo-D3> both are fine examples of random output from an oracle
974 2012-06-15 19:42:23 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: if you take the test many times you will be able to predict the values better than chance, because one of the options always has less entropy.
975 2012-06-15 19:42:43 <Diablo-D3> but you cannot measure entropy with such a smal sample
976 2012-06-15 19:42:47 <Diablo-D3> I'd need a string of several pages
977 2012-06-15 19:42:50 <wizkid057> So, I'm just going to chime in on this real quick. Up until recently I was running and maintaining bitcoind on about two dozen machines, just to add peers (which helps!). Well, within the past month or so, bitcoind's CPU usage on all of the machines I run it on has gone up insanely, forcing me to remove it from all but two.
978 2012-06-15 19:43:10 <Karmaon> wizkid057: satoshidice anyone?
979 2012-06-15 19:43:22 <wizkid057> Karmaon: was saying it without saying it...
980 2012-06-15 19:43:26 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: bummer. :(
981 2012-06-15 19:43:36 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so how do I see my own results?
982 2012-06-15 19:43:57 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you can't, because I don't even remember how to decode them anymore.
983 2012-06-15 19:44:07 <gmaxwell> that script is from like .. 2009.
984 2012-06-15 19:44:08 <Diablo-D3> lol
985 2012-06-15 19:44:43 <wizkid057> Well, I just felt the need to point this out since I assume others will eventually realize the increase in resource usage and do the same.
986 2012-06-15 19:45:21 <Karmaon> wizkid057: you cannot expect everyone to run full nodes, it will phase out sooner or later
987 2012-06-15 19:45:42 <wizkid057> Karmaon: seems the need is sooner rather than later :)
988 2012-06-15 19:45:47 <gmaxwell> p2pool has responded to slow block processing by relaying headers and mining empty blocks until the local bitcoind catches up with the chain.
989 2012-06-15 19:46:12 <gmaxwell> Karmaon: but there is a fine line between everyone and anyone.
990 2012-06-15 19:46:19 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: well, theres absolutely no benefit to the miner to mine anything but empty blocks...
991 2012-06-15 19:46:31 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: fees.
992 2012-06-15 19:46:38 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: fees might as well be nothing
993 2012-06-15 19:46:48 <gmaxwell> Yep, or at least almost.
994 2012-06-15 19:47:01 <gmaxwell> I think they're up to 0.04 btc/block on average now.
995 2012-06-15 19:47:31 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
996 2012-06-15 19:47:53 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: but when bitcoind's slowness wasn't causing orphaning it wasn't worth _not_ mining transactions.
997 2012-06-15 19:48:08 * wizkid057 shrugs
998 2012-06-15 19:48:26 <wizkid057> i mean, I had bitcoind running on some pretty beefy machines
999 2012-06-15 19:48:44 <wizkid057> and it was using substantial amounts of resources (memory, cpu, disk io)
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1001 2012-06-15 19:48:56 <Joric> i sent f8e0a0162f2eee7f233f1a87855d5021ec9b808f505d5ff385c2f7d56eaa6086 a few hours ago without being asked for a fee, any eta?
1002 2012-06-15 19:49:01 <wizkid057> and it wasnt before satoshispam started
1003 2012-06-15 19:51:30 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: a little odd.. so a node here with about 30 hours uptime and 23 peers shows 8:21.59 total cpu time. 8 minutes in 30 hours isn't much.
1004 2012-06-15 19:51:46 <gmaxwell> oh well never mind. It's modified to drop all those transactions, so not a good comparison.
1005 2012-06-15 19:51:51 <wizkid057> haha
1006 2012-06-15 19:51:55 <wizkid057> hmm
1007 2012-06-15 19:51:58 <wizkid057> care to share this mod?
1008 2012-06-15 19:52:00 <gmaxwell> but it at least has the blockchain load.
1009 2012-06-15 19:52:03 <wizkid057> i'll fire the nodes up again
1010 2012-06-15 19:52:03 <wizkid057> lol
1011 2012-06-15 19:52:47 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: All I did is crank the fees up on that one. You're welcome to the patch, one sec. But I was wondering if the fact that it runs out of tmpfs might have mattered ... e.g. is iowait being misreported as cpu.
1012 2012-06-15 19:53:28 <gmaxwell> (I'm hesitant to share other patches I have that single out some senders...)
1013 2012-06-15 19:53:48 <wizkid057> lol
1014 2012-06-15 19:53:51 erle- has quit (Quit: erle-)
1015 2012-06-15 19:54:41 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/nofree.nocheap.patch
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1017 2012-06-15 19:58:13 <wizkid057> hmm... thats simpler than I expected
1018 2012-06-15 19:58:15 <wizkid057> thanks :)
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1020 2012-06-15 20:00:46 <ThomasV> my bitcoind segfaults on startup. (0.6.2). I guess I corrupted one of the files in .bitcoin. which one could that be?
1021 2012-06-15 20:01:27 <luke-jr> probably addr.dat <.<
1022 2012-06-15 20:01:35 <luke-jr> at least, that's easiest to delete
1023 2012-06-15 20:01:54 <ThomasV> how much time will it take to rebuild?
1024 2012-06-15 20:02:14 <luke-jr> it doesn't need to rebuild
1025 2012-06-15 20:02:28 <luke-jr> it's basically a random cache of IPs
1026 2012-06-15 20:02:32 <ThomasV> ok
1027 2012-06-15 20:03:12 <ThomasV> hmm, no, it wasnt that one :)
1028 2012-06-15 20:06:31 <gmaxwell> are you getting any information besides the fault? anything in the log?
1029 2012-06-15 20:06:49 <ThomasV> the log is not empty, but nothing related afaict
1030 2012-06-15 20:07:22 <ThomasV> oh wait..
1031 2012-06-15 20:07:27 talpan has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
1032 2012-06-15 20:07:33 <ThomasV> sorry, I had another instance running
1033 2012-06-15 20:12:24 egecko has joined
1034 2012-06-15 20:12:24 * luke-jr facepalms
1035 2012-06-15 20:16:29 <ThomasV> luke-jr: instead of facepalming, tell me why this has to cause a segfault
1036 2012-06-15 20:21:15 <Joric> got confirmed, 185 minutes
1037 2012-06-15 20:21:37 <Joric> (1 confirmation)
1038 2012-06-15 20:22:10 <Joric> better pay fee!
1039 2012-06-15 20:22:40 Zapsoda has joined
1040 2012-06-15 20:22:43 <Zapsoda> hello??
1041 2012-06-15 20:22:59 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: Start May17, 4243:52
1042 2012-06-15 20:23:22 <wizkid057> gmaxwell: 70 hours of CPU time in a month
1043 2012-06-15 20:26:23 <wizkid057> namecoind used 134:44 in the same timeframe
1044 2012-06-15 20:26:46 dw has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1045 2012-06-15 20:26:55 <wizkid057> bitcoind -testnet used 50:51
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1086 2012-06-15 21:56:40 <jurov> hi all, reminder to everyone who needs just to solve resource problem
1087 2012-06-15 21:56:59 <jurov> if this would solve it:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=71542.msg962126#msg962126 please donate
1088 2012-06-15 21:57:58 <luke-jr> that doesn't solve anything
1089 2012-06-15 21:59:00 <jurov> okay, it won't help everyone... but it is also relatively easily done
1090 2012-06-15 21:59:20 <jurov> the 2-wallet prototype is already working
1091 2012-06-15 21:59:57 RainbowDashh has joined
1092 2012-06-15 22:00:08 <gmaxwell> ugh. ... why are they doing that. bleh.
1093 2012-06-15 22:00:47 <luke-jr> jurov: it's easily done because we're working on *proper* multiwallet support
1094 2012-06-15 22:01:13 <jurov> which branch?
1095 2012-06-15 22:01:38 <luke-jr> I think git master has the latest.
1096 2012-06-15 22:01:43 <luke-jr> it's being done in steps
1097 2012-06-15 22:01:50 <gmaxwell> jurov: bluematt's blockstore/hub patches for example.
1098 2012-06-15 22:02:04 <luke-jr> until recently, the wallet didn't have a clearly isolated class
1099 2012-06-15 22:02:24 <gmaxwell> It's a major architectural change, the functionality doesn't become visible until the very end.
1100 2012-06-15 22:03:05 <jurov> yep, already noticed it's half done.
1101 2012-06-15 22:04:49 eoss has joined
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1104 2012-06-15 22:10:02 <jurov> so, it seems it's actively being worked on... dunno why rg and neofutur think otherwise
1105 2012-06-15 22:12:05 <Diapolo> luke-jr: Can you tell me if FIRST_CLASS_MESSAGING is just a define introduced by you or has it something to do with a specific OS / Qt GUI feature?
1106 2012-06-15 22:12:38 <luke-jr> Diapolo: it's a Bitcoin-Qt compile-time feature
1107 2012-06-15 22:13:11 <luke-jr> Diapolo: I can probably help you with it, just busy right this second
1108 2012-06-15 22:14:02 <Diapolo> But it's not something like Unity or MS Aero or official OS GUI stuff ... it is a define you use to specify a different layout / GUI for the sign/verify part in the GUI?
1109 2012-06-15 22:14:17 <luke-jr> yes
1110 2012-06-15 22:14:32 <luke-jr> it's basically "consider messaging a main feature, not hide it off in the menu"
1111 2012-06-15 22:14:38 <Diapolo> OMFG ... I really had the impression it was something fancy and complex ^^ call me dumbass :D
1112 2012-06-15 22:14:50 <luke-jr> Diapolo: so basically, something useful for merchants who use sign/verify a lot
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1114 2012-06-15 22:15:01 <weex> jurov: probably because neither are devs on the bitcoin project itself, a bounty could be considered a form of feature request
1115 2012-06-15 22:15:02 <luke-jr> (and users who sign a lot)
1116 2012-06-15 22:15:09 <Diapolo> oh god I start understanding ...
1117 2012-06-15 22:15:26 <luke-jr> weex: sipa and BlueMatt are regular devs here
1118 2012-06-15 22:15:29 <Diapolo> now it makes sense and I'm sure I can fix this for myself ^^
1119 2012-06-15 22:15:37 <weex> luke-jr: i mean rg and neofutur
1120 2012-06-15 22:15:41 <luke-jr> Diapolo: great âº
1121 2012-06-15 22:15:49 <luke-jr> weex: ah
1122 2012-06-15 22:15:50 <weex> maybe jurov can update that thread with a pointer to what he found
1123 2012-06-15 22:19:08 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1124 2012-06-15 22:20:35 <luke-jr> weex: actually, in practice rg knows
1125 2012-06-15 22:20:36 <jurov> link to bluematt's cod eis alterady there, whether bluematt actually has the same thing in mind as me is not clear
1126 2012-06-15 22:20:44 <luke-jr> weex: but when I mentioned it to him, he said he didn't want to wait
1127 2012-06-15 22:20:45 <luke-jr> :p
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1155 2012-06-15 23:07:23 <Diapolo> luke-jr: the general term for signing and verifying is messaging here, right?
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1158 2012-06-15 23:08:29 <rav3n_pl> hey. any news about https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87768.0 ? It is really pain, PC is freezing :/
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1163 2012-06-15 23:14:33 <luke-jr> Diapolo: yes
1164 2012-06-15 23:14:55 <luke-jr> rav3n_pl: probably SatoshiDICE
1165 2012-06-15 23:15:28 <rav3n_pl> ?
1166 2012-06-15 23:15:40 <luke-jr> they're spamming the Bitcoin network
1167 2012-06-15 23:15:46 <rav3n_pl> each transaction eats my cpu?
1168 2012-06-15 23:16:25 <luke-jr> â¦yes
1169 2012-06-15 23:16:34 <luke-jr> that's how Bitcoin is secure
1170 2012-06-15 23:16:41 <luke-jr> every user verifies everything
1171 2012-06-15 23:17:25 <sipa> in the long term it isn't expected that every user will run a full node like Bitcoin-Qt implements
1172 2012-06-15 23:17:52 <rav3n_pl> i know how it works, just "on paper" verification shoould be "easy nad low computing" lol
1173 2012-06-15 23:18:14 <sipa> what kills your system is most likely not the CPU, but the database activity
1174 2012-06-15 23:18:15 <luke-jr> rav3n_pl: when there's 9000 transactions?
1175 2012-06-15 23:18:36 <luke-jr> sipa: I wonder if non-miners should just verify a random 10% of large blocks
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1177 2012-06-15 23:19:16 <luke-jr> or perhaps automatically determine the % based on CPU utilization
1178 2012-06-15 23:19:41 <sipa> raw CPU is rarely the problem; a normal recent CPU can do 1000s of ECDSA verifications per second
1179 2012-06-15 23:19:45 <luke-jr> ie, verify the signatures in random order and after a few seconds assume the rest are good
1180 2012-06-15 23:19:51 <luke-jr> hm
1181 2012-06-15 23:20:00 <sipa> (but probably not 10000)
1182 2012-06-15 23:21:36 <rav3n_pl> hmm lurked in blockchain: largest is one withc over 20 input and few outputs, then 1st - spitting bounty, then anouher 10 i/o and rest is 1-3i/o ... it is one gig trancajction per block
1183 2012-06-15 23:22:44 <rav3n_pl> last 10 blocks : 100-800 transactions
1184 2012-06-15 23:23:13 <rav3n_pl> bigger was over hour ago
1185 2012-06-15 23:23:27 <rav3n_pl> so my client is checking old ones?
1186 2012-06-15 23:23:53 <rav3n_pl> 184715 1 hour 34 minutes 897 110,602.34 BTC Slush 406.03
1187 2012-06-15 23:25:09 <rav3n_pl> 2 big transactions in it
1188 2012-06-15 23:25:27 <rav3n_pl> still not getting it, also not noticed it on 0.6 client
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