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   7 2012-06-25 00:06:28 <jgarzik> seeing this a lot on one node, but not on the others:
   8 2012-06-25 00:06:33 <jgarzik> ^M^M^MPROCESSMESSAGE SKIPPED 20 BYTES^M^M^M
   9 2012-06-25 00:07:29 * jgarzik wonders if there are free rrdtool graphing sites out there
  10 2012-06-25 00:07:37 <jgarzik> would be nice to put 'getnetstats' stuff under rrdtool
  11 2012-06-25 00:10:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: is the clock on that node like.. a year off? :)
  12 2012-06-25 00:17:59 egecko has joined
  13 2012-06-25 00:29:30 <D34TH> ntpdate pool.ntp.org
  14 2012-06-25 00:29:31 <D34TH> :D
  15 2012-06-25 00:32:53 <gmaxwell> In any case, I haven't seen any of those for some time.
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  47 2012-06-25 02:46:29 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: fanquake opened pull request 39 on bitcoin/bitcoin.org <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/39>
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  60 2012-06-25 04:05:28 <copumpkin> is there some way to make bitcoin-qt work over an http proxy?
  61 2012-06-25 04:05:44 <copumpkin> probably not, eh
  62 2012-06-25 04:05:54 <copumpkin> I'll see if I can find a socks proxy
  63 2012-06-25 04:06:44 enquirer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  64 2012-06-25 04:13:00 <nanotube> say, i have some socks i'm not using right here in my drawer. >_>
  65 2012-06-25 04:15:21 * copumpkin slaps nanotube 
  66 2012-06-25 04:16:06 * nanotube gets his minion to slap copumpkin back. ,,(slap copumpkin)
  67 2012-06-25 04:16:08 * gribble slaps copumpkin with a unsuccessive GPG key
  68 2012-06-25 04:16:12 <copumpkin> :O
  69 2012-06-25 04:16:15 <nanotube> ouch, that key's gotta hurt. :)
  70 2012-06-25 04:16:20 <copumpkin> :(
  71 2012-06-25 04:16:27 <nanotube> ;;hug copumpkin
  72 2012-06-25 04:16:27 * gribble hugs copumpkin
  73 2012-06-25 04:16:31 <copumpkin> yay
  74 2012-06-25 04:16:42 <nanotube> :)
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  78 2012-06-25 04:22:53 <doublec> copumpkin: isn't there a -proxy command line option?
  79 2012-06-25 04:23:12 <copumpkin> isn't that for the socks proxy?
  80 2012-06-25 04:23:35 <doublec> oh right
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  84 2012-06-25 04:34:27 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt yes, probably a simple change.  However, I have only a couple of day between trips, so may be a bit before I get to it.  Could you file an issue on the gitian github issue list?
  85 2012-06-25 04:34:28 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  89 2012-06-25 04:53:32 <Karmaon> ssss
  90 2012-06-25 04:53:52 <Karmaon> !ping
  91 2012-06-25 04:53:52 <gribble> pong
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  95 2012-06-25 05:03:36 <quintopia> is it possible to separate the p2p node (and blockchain storage) from the wallet (and user interface) programmatically in any available client or library?
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  97 2012-06-25 05:08:15 <phantomcircuit> yes but not in any stable library
  98 2012-06-25 05:08:56 <quintopia> hmm
  99 2012-06-25 05:09:04 <quintopia> so fallback plan
 100 2012-06-25 05:09:37 <quintopia> is it possible to mix sshfs and the official client to achieve blockchain stored remotely?
 101 2012-06-25 05:10:07 <quintopia> obv a temporary solution until things stabilize
 102 2012-06-25 05:12:40 <weex> quintopia: i'd like to hear how that works out, i think you might see a ton of bandwidth usage but i'm not sure why
 103 2012-06-25 05:13:43 <quintopia> weex: which directory should go on the remote server to ensure the blockchain lands there?
 104 2012-06-25 05:13:53 <phantomcircuit> quintopia, why would you do that?
 105 2012-06-25 05:14:00 <phantomcircuit> local system doesn't have 2GB of space hdd space?
 106 2012-06-25 05:14:29 <quintopia> phantomcircuit: it has just enough to store the current tree and no more. and i've had to do a lot of file moving to achieve that.
 107 2012-06-25 05:14:29 <weex> quintopia: ~/.bitcoin by default
 108 2012-06-25 05:14:49 <weex> the wallet.dat file would move too though with that folder
 109 2012-06-25 05:14:50 <quintopia> weex: i don't want my private keys and stuff on the server. nothing that i can't afford to lose.
 110 2012-06-25 05:15:23 <luke-jr> quintopia: you don't want to do that
 111 2012-06-25 05:16:33 <weex> yeah i think you're screwed, don't see a way to separate wallet.dat from data dir
 112 2012-06-25 05:16:49 <luke-jr> also, the blockchain is accessed for pretty much every packet relayed
 113 2012-06-25 05:17:18 <weex> it is impressive the number of ways people want to seperate the blockchain from wallet though eh?
 114 2012-06-25 05:17:26 <luke-jr> weex: BlueMatt is working on that
 115 2012-06-25 05:17:30 <quintopia> well crap
 116 2012-06-25 05:18:54 <quintopia> weex: if so many people want to do it, then how many people are working on it? and who is making the most progress?
 117 2012-06-25 05:19:11 * weex waits patiently with no pressure, and really no pressure, not in a passive aggressive no pressure really means pressure way
 118 2012-06-25 05:19:59 <weex> quintopia: BlueMatt is working on it...i think there's a thread on it somewhere
 119 2012-06-25 05:20:06 <luke-jr> you can help test it with https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=89099
 120 2012-06-25 05:20:55 <luke-jr> (note: JUST internals are being tested there, it's not exposed to the user)
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 123 2012-06-25 05:27:06 <quintopia> looks scary
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 125 2012-06-25 05:29:07 <weex> luke-jr: how does that list of pull requests compare in number to previous releases?
 126 2012-06-25 05:29:21 <luke-jr> weex: in what sense?
 127 2012-06-25 05:29:36 <weex> like do releases usually have more or less than that?
 128 2012-06-25 05:29:47 <luke-jr> like full 0.N releases?
 129 2012-06-25 05:29:54 <luke-jr> never really counted those; I'd imagine so
 130 2012-06-25 05:30:29 <weex> yeah or smaller ones...i guess i never really looked too closely at the changelog for any release
 131 2012-06-25 05:33:05 <luke-jr> 0.m.N releases are generally bugfixes only
 132 2012-06-25 05:33:05 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
 133 2012-06-25 05:34:09 <weex> cool, has any thought been given to the issue of keyloggers on windows machines?
 134 2012-06-25 05:34:18 <weex> like alternate password entry methods?
 135 2012-06-25 05:34:23 <luke-jr> yes, that's what P2SH is for
 136 2012-06-25 05:35:33 <luke-jr> so people with smartphones (for example) can require every transaction be approved on their desktop + phone
 137 2012-06-25 05:35:35 Turingi has joined
 138 2012-06-25 05:36:30 <weex> oh, i'm thinking of onscreen keyboards... guess that'd be a bit clunky compared to p2sh
 139 2012-06-25 05:36:54 <weex> i know some banking sites display a number pad you have to click on
 140 2012-06-25 05:37:07 <luke-jr> can keylog screen input just as easily IMO
 141 2012-06-25 05:37:27 <gmaxwell> yea, thats only a pretty weak protection against highly generic attacks.
 142 2012-06-25 05:37:35 <luke-jr> 0.4's wallet encryption was *mostly* just PR
 143 2012-06-25 05:37:39 <gmaxwell> It was made pointless by targeted malware.
 144 2012-06-25 05:38:22 <gmaxwell> Worse— that kind of on screen picker discourages the use of long and complex passphrases of the sort that could actually withstand an offline attack, e.g. where the attacker only got a copy of your data after the fact.
 145 2012-06-25 05:38:50 <weex> fair enough...it'll be cool to see a mobile app that integrates well with the desktop client to do p2sh
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 148 2012-06-25 05:41:04 <weex> i'm just writing some tips for windows users and it would seem if there's a remote chance a keylogger is installed you had better reinstall or use something else
 149 2012-06-25 05:41:42 <weex> i wouldn't trust it personally with more than the cost of a windows license <--- not a bad line
 150 2012-06-25 05:42:19 <luke-jr> s/a windows license/YOUR windows license/
 151 2012-06-25 05:43:00 <weex> is that a reference to OEM pricing?
 152 2012-06-25 05:43:08 <luke-jr> no, it's a reference to warez
 153 2012-06-25 05:43:10 <luke-jr> :p
 154 2012-06-25 05:43:21 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people were running pre-rooted windows: Download windows from some illicit copying site, get a rootkit bonus preinstalled for free.
 155 2012-06-25 05:43:48 <luke-jr> ^
 156 2012-06-25 05:43:50 <luke-jr> exactly
 157 2012-06-25 05:43:50 galambo_ has joined
 158 2012-06-25 05:44:22 <weex> why does bitcoin have to ruin EVERYTHING!?
 159 2012-06-25 05:44:55 <weex> putting perverse financial incentives everywhere
 160 2012-06-25 05:45:28 <gmaxwell> Pretty sure that particular incentive exists absent bitcoin.
 161 2012-06-25 05:45:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I think Bitcoin brings it to a whole new level
 162 2012-06-25 05:46:06 <luke-jr> or did anyhow
 163 2012-06-25 05:46:15 <luke-jr> ASICs are going to ruin that for botnets
 164 2012-06-25 05:46:33 <luke-jr> P2SH has potential to ruin it for theives
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 167 2012-06-25 05:46:41 <weex> how long 'til you see, "no preloaded Bitcoin stealing keyloggers" in a .nfo file?
 168 2012-06-25 05:47:02 <luke-jr> .nfo?
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 170 2012-06-25 05:47:33 <weex> it's been a while, and this is probably way ot but .nfo was the file that had all the ascii art and sort of advertised the warez release group
 171 2012-06-25 05:48:16 <luke-jr> o
 172 2012-06-25 05:48:22 <quintopia> i remember
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 293 2012-06-25 13:24:18 <TD> sipa: you there?
 294 2012-06-25 13:25:54 gavinandresen has joined
 295 2012-06-25 13:26:57 <TD> morning, gavinandresen
 296 2012-06-25 13:27:26 <gavinandresen> good morning
 297 2012-06-25 13:27:44 <TD> gavinandresen: do you know offhand what happens if you replay blocks into a wallet, in bitcoin-qt?
 298 2012-06-25 13:28:02 <gavinandresen> no
 299 2012-06-25 13:28:24 <gavinandresen> By replay you mean "CheckBlock/AcceptBlock" as if they were received from the network?
 300 2012-06-25 13:28:31 <TD> yeah, ProcessBlock
 301 2012-06-25 13:28:36 <TD> i'm working on some leveldb migration code
 302 2012-06-25 13:28:51 <TD> i think nothing will happen because replay takes place before pwalletMain is initialized
 303 2012-06-25 13:28:57 drizztbsd has joined
 304 2012-06-25 13:29:19 <gavinandresen> you're probably right, I'd have to play computer and mentally step through the code
 305 2012-06-25 13:29:21 <sipa> what do you mean by replay? -loadblock ?
 306 2012-06-25 13:29:48 <TD> yeah
 307 2012-06-25 13:29:52 <TD> effectively
 308 2012-06-25 13:29:56 <sipa> that happens before the wallet is loaded, though it may be useful to swap it
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 310 2012-06-25 13:30:22 <sipa> if done while the wallet is loaded, i expect the effect to be the same as a -rescan
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 312 2012-06-25 13:30:40 <TD> a -rescan tells the wallet to rescan a block directly
 313 2012-06-25 13:30:45 <TD> a replay calls ProcessBlock on each one
 314 2012-06-25 13:31:01 <TD> btw -loadblock happens after wallet is loaded and registered. i'm putting my migration code before
 315 2012-06-25 13:31:07 <sipa> yes, but new blocks will cause SyncWithWallet callbakcs as well
 316 2012-06-25 13:31:26 <gavinandresen> sipa: I want to tag v0.6.3 (same commit as v0.6.3rc1) and re-gitian build so the v0.6.3 binaries don't report themselves as "rc1"....
 317 2012-06-25 13:32:46 <sipa> TD: i'm making some progress on the pruning idea, and refactoring the reorg code somewhat (i believe it will end up being simpler), and it'll only do db writes after verification and calculating all changes
 318 2012-06-25 13:33:11 Turingi has joined
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 321 2012-06-25 13:33:13 <sipa> TD: so combined with leveld, you wouldn't need the batch inspection
 322 2012-06-25 13:33:44 <TD> ok
 323 2012-06-25 13:33:48 <TD> that would be good
 324 2012-06-25 13:33:51 <TD> that said, i've written the code now
 325 2012-06-25 13:33:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: i can rebuild, but my linux binaries differed significatly from all others
 326 2012-06-25 13:34:02 <TD> so we can always go in and delete it later once your refactorings are done, if my work gets merged
 327 2012-06-25 13:34:19 <TD> i found out today that leveldb needs a bit of massaging to work on windows. people have done ports but they aren't properly integrated upstream.
 328 2012-06-25 13:34:29 <sipa> oh
 329 2012-06-25 13:34:29 <TD> so it may be a bit longer until i have it working and tested on all platforms
 330 2012-06-25 13:34:35 <TD> for now i've made it a conditional compile
 331 2012-06-25 13:34:51 <TD> making it work on windows looks easy - somebody sent me an env_boost.cpp that makes it use the boost file IO and thread code
 332 2012-06-25 13:34:59 JStoker has joined
 333 2012-06-25 13:35:27 <sipa> right, i read it has a nice OS interaction abstraction layer
 334 2012-06-25 13:35:38 <sipa> so that shouldn't be too hard
 335 2012-06-25 13:35:49 <TD> oh yes. the "port" is quite easy. my belief it'd be done already because of chrome overlooked the fact that chrome has its own OS abstraction layer
 336 2012-06-25 13:35:53 <TD> so they "ported" it to use that
 337 2012-06-25 13:36:23 <TD> which pruning idea are you working on?
 338 2012-06-25 13:37:03 <sipa> storing unspent txouts directly in database, but keep full blocks and "undo" information for recent blocks only
 339 2012-06-25 13:37:25 <TD> hrm
 340 2012-06-25 13:37:33 <TD> so you can't serve the chain that way?
 341 2012-06-25 13:37:42 <sipa> only the part you keep
 342 2012-06-25 13:37:50 <sipa> which is optionally everything
 343 2012-06-25 13:38:26 <sipa> even when keeping everything, i expect it to be faster and smaller than what we have now
 344 2012-06-25 13:39:34 <TD> would you be able to serve arbitrary stored transactions that way?
 345 2012-06-25 13:39:46 <sipa> with an additional index
 346 2012-06-25 13:40:15 <sipa> (which would still be smaller than what we have now, and that index becomes optional too)
 347 2012-06-25 13:40:36 <sipa> note that bitcoind currently does not serve arbitrary transactions either
 348 2012-06-25 13:40:38 <gavinandresen> sipa: RE: pruning: did you see my post about the new gettransaction features and concerns with pruning ?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89725.0
 349 2012-06-25 13:40:40 <TD> i know
 350 2012-06-25 13:40:42 <TD> but that's an easy fix
 351 2012-06-25 13:40:48 <TD> and there are lots of use cases for it
 352 2012-06-25 13:41:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: yes
 353 2012-06-25 13:41:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: in my current code gettransaction simply doesn't work for non-mempool transactions
 354 2012-06-25 13:42:21 <gavinandresen> sipa: ah....  there's still a wallet transaction that stores extra information, I assume?
 355 2012-06-25 13:42:37 <sipa> i haven't touched wallet code at all
 356 2012-06-25 13:43:06 <TD> it would be very useful for a variety of apps if getdata worked for any transaction and loaded from disk if necessary
 357 2012-06-25 13:43:15 <TD> hrm. annoying.
 358 2012-06-25 13:43:18 <sipa> i actually mean thet main's GetTrabsaction only works for mempools
 359 2012-06-25 13:43:27 <TD> sipa: seems that -loadblock *requires* that the block file be != blk0001.dat
 360 2012-06-25 13:43:33 <TD> sipa: which would double disk space usage during migration ....
 361 2012-06-25 13:43:44 <sipa> TD: yes, definitely
 362 2012-06-25 13:43:55 <sipa> TD: it is for importing, not reindexing
 363 2012-06-25 13:44:11 <TD> i guess it's not necessarily a killer problem, but i wonder how many people would care about a temporary spike in usage
 364 2012-06-25 13:44:33 <sipa> i believe a reindexing function isn't too hard to write
 365 2012-06-25 13:44:35 <gavinandresen> eleven.  And they'll all post the forums and complain loudly.
 366 2012-06-25 13:45:03 <sipa> the grttransaction RPC first looks in the wallet anyway
 367 2012-06-25 13:45:44 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, but I worry that if the 0.7 release gives all sorts of spiffy extra information that we'll regret it when we have to take it away in 0.8
 368 2012-06-25 13:46:05 <sipa> i was not a fan of all decompositions either
 369 2012-06-25 13:46:11 pnicholson has joined
 370 2012-06-25 13:46:16 <sipa> but it sure is interesting :)
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 372 2012-06-25 13:47:49 <TD> sipa: i assume when you say the unspent outs fit in memory, you mean with some kind of cache over the db
 373 2012-06-25 13:47:56 <TD> because it won't fit in memory forever (hopefully)
 374 2012-06-25 13:48:03 <sipa> by the way: my expectation for the pruned storage requirements: around 150 MB + 1.1*the_size_of_blocks_you_keep
 375 2012-06-25 13:48:23 <sipa> TD: of course, that's a short term prognosis
 376 2012-06-25 13:49:57 <TD> ok
 377 2012-06-25 13:50:40 <sipa> with txid-to-diskpos index it'll be another 50-100 MB
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 382 2012-06-25 13:55:09 <TD> sipa: ok. leveldb has in-memory caching integrated
 383 2012-06-25 13:55:12 <TD> i'm sure the same is true of bdb
 384 2012-06-25 13:55:16 <TD> well, i'd imagine it is
 385 2012-06-25 13:55:21 <sipa> yes, sure
 386 2012-06-25 13:55:37 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 387 2012-06-25 13:55:37 <sipa> we even have -dbcache to tune it
 388 2012-06-25 13:55:49 <sipa> though the default works quite well now
 389 2012-06-25 13:56:02 <TD> what size is it by default?
 390 2012-06-25 13:56:16 <sipa> 25 MiB iirc
 391 2012-06-25 13:57:04 <sipa> i believe benchmarking showed that it hardly improved when set to more, unless you set it to much much more
 392 2012-06-25 13:57:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: in pruned mode it is possible to lookup the input amounts/addresses relatively cheaply by the way, as they are stored in blocks' undo files
 393 2012-06-25 13:58:02 <sipa> only for the blocks you keep, obviously
 394 2012-06-25 13:58:27 <gavinandresen> sipa: amount/address/scriptPubKey ?
 395 2012-06-25 13:58:41 <sipa> amount + scriptPubKey are stored
 396 2012-06-25 13:58:42 <gavinandresen> never mind,
 397 2012-06-25 13:58:53 <gavinandresen> (obviously gotta be the script not the address....)
 398 2012-06-25 13:58:58 <sipa> indeed
 399 2012-06-25 13:59:25 <gavinandresen> 0.6.3 win gitian sigs pushed, by the way... building linux now
 400 2012-06-25 13:59:43 t7_ has joined
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 402 2012-06-25 14:00:52 <TD> sipa: how is this scheme different to the simpler one satoshi proposed again? i mean just deleting fully spent transactions.
 403 2012-06-25 14:00:52 t7_ is now known as t7
 404 2012-06-25 14:01:09 <TD> it's more efficient?
 405 2012-06-25 14:01:39 wboy has joined
 406 2012-06-25 14:01:50 <sipa> yes
 407 2012-06-25 14:02:00 <sipa> txins are the bulk of storage, not txouts
 408 2012-06-25 14:02:10 <sipa> here we only keep the txouts
 409 2012-06-25 14:02:42 <cande> is the "bitcoind" executeable included in the Windows.exe download from bitcoin.org
 410 2012-06-25 14:02:50 <sipa> and there are many partially-spent txn, which would have to be kept entirely
 411 2012-06-25 14:02:59 <sipa> cande: yes, in the daemon subdir
 412 2012-06-25 14:03:06 <cande> thx
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 415 2012-06-25 14:05:11 <sipa> TD: this requires 33 bytes per unspent tx, plus 23 bytes per unspent txout (+ overhead per tx)
 416 2012-06-25 14:05:22 <sipa> on average
 417 2012-06-25 14:06:28 <TD> ok
 418 2012-06-25 14:06:56 <sipa> TD: satoshi's pruning supports serving transactions and merkle paths, without having the blocks
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 420 2012-06-25 14:07:12 <sipa> but it can't serve full blocks either
 421 2012-06-25 14:07:23 <TD> yeah
 422 2012-06-25 14:07:33 <TD> i'm just trying to think through cases where full transactions might be required in future
 423 2012-06-25 14:08:05 <sipa> anywhere they are necessary, they are kept in a wallet of either sender or receiver anyway
 424 2012-06-25 14:11:53 <gmaxwell> Did anyone try to reproduce the claims that proxy wasn't working in 0.6.3rc1?
 425 2012-06-25 14:12:01 <TD> thinking back to the SPV case where you want to know if a block is invalid, and are willing to do a bunch of work to spot that if it's rare
 426 2012-06-25 14:12:11 <TD> you wouldn't be able to check in the presence of pruning
 427 2012-06-25 14:12:38 <TD> somebody would say "block N gives itself more money than the inflation formulas allow", but you could not check for yourself without a copy of all previous transactions
 428 2012-06-25 14:12:44 <gmaxwell> TD: the invalidity proof would include all the required info, and you'd expect nodes to create them _pre pruning_.
 429 2012-06-25 14:13:14 <TD> the proof would require all txns in the block and all input txns too (full copies)
 430 2012-06-25 14:13:21 <gmaxwell> TD: though without a tree of unspent txn it might be a lot of data. :(
 431 2012-06-25 14:13:26 <gmaxwell> yea.
 432 2012-06-25 14:13:46 <TD> i guess some nodes can advertise in their addrs that they are archival nodes
 433 2012-06-25 14:13:47 <gmaxwell> With a tree of unspent txn committed in the prior block you wouldn't need their inputs, just all the txn.
 434 2012-06-25 14:13:48 <TD> which don't prune
 435 2012-06-25 14:14:35 <gmaxwell> yea, thats not elegant, you really want the proof to contain all the required information so a stateless node could check without further help. The reason for this is that you can't assume that such an archival node would be available to you— you're already assuming a well funded attack.
 436 2012-06-25 14:16:19 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 438 2012-06-25 14:18:00 <TD> the node that is trying to construct the proof also has to be able to read all the previous transactions
 439 2012-06-25 14:18:09 <TD> i'm not saying pruning is bad, it's clearly not
 440 2012-06-25 14:18:21 <TD> i'm just wondering if we lose anything by doing it this way vs the older way
 441 2012-06-25 14:18:38 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
 442 2012-06-25 14:20:44 <sipa> well, you could chose to store either the list of txids per block, or the merkle path for each unspent tx to the block merkle root
 443 2012-06-25 14:21:17 <sipa> oh no, as you still can't serve the transaction itself
 444 2012-06-25 14:22:54 <TD> the purpose of this is to save disk space?
 445 2012-06-25 14:23:41 <sipa> i think the core improvement is that it reduces the working set size necessary to do full validaton
 446 2012-06-25 14:25:00 <gmaxwell> 07:14 < TD> the node that is trying to construct the proof also has to be able to read all the previous transactions
 447 2012-06-25 14:25:01 <sipa> additionally, it allows trading in disk space of old blocks, in exchange for removing the ability to serve/rescan/reorg
 448 2012-06-25 14:25:11 <gmaxwell> ^ yes, I don't think thats a problem because you can't validate without them.
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 453 2012-06-25 14:26:49 <sipa> maybe this will lead to the necessity of advertizing not the latest but also the earliest block a node is willing to serve
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 457 2012-06-25 14:29:43 <TD> sipa: it'd have to be something in the addr packets to let people find archival nodes if they want them
 458 2012-06-25 14:29:52 <TD> sipa: so a new service flag might be better, albiet less general
 459 2012-06-25 14:31:34 <sipa> maybe a bit for "serves last 100 blocks", one for 1000, 10000, 100000, all
 460 2012-06-25 14:32:05 <sipa> or 256, 4096, 65536, all
 461 2012-06-25 14:32:58 <TD> are there any cases in which you'd be willing to serve huge chunks of the chain but not all of it?
 462 2012-06-25 14:33:01 <TD> it's hard to imagine
 463 2012-06-25 14:33:06 <TD> might be simpler to just use one bit
 464 2012-06-25 14:33:29 <sipa> i'm sure almost any fully validating node will keep the last 100 blocks around
 465 2012-06-25 14:33:56 <sipa> or 1000
 466 2012-06-25 14:33:59 <TD> that's less than one days worth
 467 2012-06-25 14:34:08 <TD> re-orgs caused by rule changes or attacks could be much larger than that
 468 2012-06-25 14:34:10 <TD> disk space is really cheap
 469 2012-06-25 14:34:19 <TD> so i'd be generous
 470 2012-06-25 14:36:50 <TD> hmm
 471 2012-06-25 14:37:00 <TD> where is the code that disables sig checking until the last checkpoint?
 472 2012-06-25 14:37:04 * TD is being dense and can't see it
 473 2012-06-25 14:37:30 <TD> ah
 474 2012-06-25 14:37:37 <TD> we don't run the scripts at all
 475 2012-06-25 14:38:26 <gmaxwell> A reorg which was greater than a days worth would be horiffic, and would almost certantly result in lots of people getting ripped off... Though I generally agree that keeping more like 1000 would be a lot better.
 476 2012-06-25 14:38:35 <TD> well
 477 2012-06-25 14:38:44 <TD> if there was a huge re-org that only changed one or two transactions, not necessarily
 478 2012-06-25 14:40:41 <gmaxwell> It would be quite hard (and currently impossible) to cooridnate that the reorg would only do that though.
 479 2012-06-25 14:41:08 <TD> consider the overflow transaction. huge re-org that affected basically nobody as the fake coins had not yet been spent
 480 2012-06-25 14:41:38 Diapolo has joined
 481 2012-06-25 14:42:19 <gmaxwell> Right, but almost no txn volume at the time. Thats not a good assumption in the future. In any case, I agree that 1000 would be much better because it would make a fix like that possible.
 482 2012-06-25 14:45:58 <sipa> i suppose the standard advice could be keep 2016 blocks
 483 2012-06-25 14:46:55 <sipa> or maybe keep X GB worth of blocks, but never less than Y
 484 2012-06-25 14:47:06 <TD> keep until the last checkpoint?
 485 2012-06-25 14:47:12 <gmaxwell> Sounds fine to me. This is something that could evolve in the (far) future when the system is better understood.
 486 2012-06-25 14:47:17 <gmaxwell> TD: Ugh. yuck.
 487 2012-06-25 14:49:19 <TD> sipa: why does LoadExternalBlockFile read the pchMessageStart etc by hand instead of just deserializing the markers and sizes to a CDataStream?
 488 2012-06-25 14:49:24 <TD> is this old satoshi code or did you write it?
 489 2012-06-25 14:49:55 <sipa> TD: i did; reason: dealing with corrupted files
 490 2012-06-25 14:51:16 <TD> ok
 491 2012-06-25 14:52:07 <sipa> hmm, TD's comment about scripts being disabled entirely... i suppose there is not really any other way
 492 2012-06-25 14:52:19 <sipa> what if some idiot script did a OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT ?
 493 2012-06-25 14:54:14 <TD> well, the point is you assume the script outputs were already verified
 494 2012-06-25 14:54:19 <TD> so i think it's safe
 495 2012-06-25 14:54:25 <TD> no matter what a script contains
 496 2012-06-25 14:54:40 <sipa> yes, indeed
 497 2012-06-25 14:55:01 <sipa> there's no security difference between not checking the signature vs not checking the script at all, afaics
 498 2012-06-25 14:55:50 <sipa> if someone can get you to accept a faulty script, they can as well get you a valid script with a faulty sig
 499 2012-06-25 14:55:53 <gmaxwell> right.
 500 2012-06-25 14:56:14 <Diapolo> sipa: can you take a look at http://i46.tinypic.com/8wmhye.jpg I'm currently working on the new proxy UI and need some quick input
 501 2012-06-25 14:56:50 <Diapolo> sipa: 1. When using the IPv6 proxy, the first entry needs to be IPv4? 2. I add another field similar to the IPv6 one for Tor.
 502 2012-06-25 14:57:53 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: dunno if you noticed but hidden service support is now in git-master.
 503 2012-06-25 14:58:05 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I know
 504 2012-06-25 14:58:39 <Diapolo> and it needs to be exposed to the GUI, I had a talk about this with sipa 2 days ago
 505 2012-06-25 14:58:59 <sipa> Diapolo: i'd say "[ ] Use a SOCKS proxy: [host] [port] [version]", "[ ] Use a separate proxy for IPv6 connections:\n(X) None (X) [host] [port]", "[ ] Use a separate proxy for hidden services:\n(X) None ( ) [host] [port]"
 506 2012-06-25 14:59:26 <sipa> if my pseudo-gui code is readable
 507 2012-06-25 14:59:52 <Diapolo> sipa: That's what I have in my mind ... just the question, when using IPv6 and the first entry is active this needs to be an IPv4 one?
 508 2012-06-25 14:59:54 <sipa> "separate IPv6 SOCKS proxy" sounds like the proxy itself is IPv6 - that's not true
 509 2012-06-25 15:00:08 <Diapolo> you are right wrong wording there
 510 2012-06-25 15:00:11 <sipa> all host ip addresses can be anything
 511 2012-06-25 15:00:21 <Diapolo> and a missunderstanding on my side ^^
 512 2012-06-25 15:00:25 <gmaxwell> "separate SOCKS proxy for IPv6 peers"
 513 2012-06-25 15:01:03 <sipa> gmaxwell++
 514 2012-06-25 15:01:50 <sipa> Diapolo: if one would create a loop (IPv6 proxy is set to onion address, and Tor proxy is set to an IPv6 address, e.g.) there'd be a problem, but don't worry about that now
 515 2012-06-25 15:02:29 <gmaxwell> Does the GUI have an interface to addnode?
 516 2012-06-25 15:02:34 <sipa> not yet
 517 2012-06-25 15:03:14 <Diapolo> I guess the GUI could be far more powerfull and currently I want to add the proxy / Tor stuff.
 518 2012-06-25 15:03:41 <sipa> oh wait, that looping is not a problem; connections to proxy servers are always made directly
 519 2012-06-25 15:03:47 leotreasure has joined
 520 2012-06-25 15:03:52 <sipa> so you cannot use a .onion address as proxy server
 521 2012-06-25 15:04:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: hah, I was busily reading code trying to figure out what the #@$# you were talking about.
 522 2012-06-25 15:05:10 <Diapolo> sipa: I'm gonna come back, when I have the UI ready and need some help with the network-functions :).
 523 2012-06-25 15:06:22 <sipa> Diapolo: feel free
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 525 2012-06-25 15:09:58 <gavinandresen> sipa BlueMatt luke-jr and anybody else gitian-capable:  please build v0.6.3 and let me know if the builds match.  Should be all ready to announce, assuming we do get matches.
 526 2012-06-25 15:11:09 Ken` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 527 2012-06-25 15:11:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: building
 528 2012-06-25 15:13:11 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: ^
 529 2012-06-25 15:13:24 <gavinandresen> thanks
 530 2012-06-25 15:14:33 <luke-jr> sipa BlueMatt et al: if you could build 0.4.7rc3 and 0.5.6rc3 afterward, I'd appreciate it
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 536 2012-06-25 15:37:58 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: match
 537 2012-06-25 15:38:12 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: excellent, thanks
 538 2012-06-25 15:42:15 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: any point in me building OSX bitcoind, or shall I just pass until/if I can do it with Bitcoin-Qt?
 539 2012-06-25 15:42:28 <gavinandresen> just pass until you can build QT
 540 2012-06-25 15:42:49 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
 541 2012-06-25 15:43:22 <gavinandresen> (well, there might be a handful of people who would appreciate a pre-built osx bitcoind, but it is a small enough number I think you should do something better with your time)
 542 2012-06-25 15:44:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: might want to ask in the p2pool channel.
 543 2012-06-25 15:44:32 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: nice thing about gitian is, it doesn't use my time ;p
 544 2012-06-25 15:44:52 O2made has joined
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 546 2012-06-25 15:45:50 drizztbsd has joined
 547 2012-06-25 15:45:52 <gavinandresen> 0.6.3 binaries now up at https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.6.3/    I'm away for a little bit, will post to forums / etc when I'm back
 548 2012-06-25 15:48:51 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 549 2012-06-25 15:49:29 <gmaxwell> hm. I thought I had gavin's gpg key— these are signed with 1FC730C1
 550 2012-06-25 15:50:04 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell:  http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=gavinandresen&op=index
 551 2012-06-25 15:50:30 <gavinandresen> 1FC730C1 is the right one
 552 2012-06-25 15:50:45 <gavinandresen> (both belong to me, and sign each other)
 553 2012-06-25 15:50:50 <gmaxwell> Yea, I see its signed by your other one.
 554 2012-06-25 15:52:37 occulta has joined
 555 2012-06-25 15:54:05 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
 556 2012-06-25 15:55:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK on the gettransaction RPC change you proposed on the forum
 557 2012-06-25 15:57:38 <luke-jr> are we using forum instead of ML now?
 558 2012-06-25 15:58:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: NACK on removal of much-needed functionality
 559 2012-06-25 16:01:08 makomk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 560 2012-06-25 16:01:15 makomk has joined
 561 2012-06-25 16:01:52 danbri has joined
 562 2012-06-25 16:05:44 <jgarzik> luke-jr: NACK on air filled, content-free expressions of feeling
 563 2012-06-25 16:05:55 danbri_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 564 2012-06-25 16:06:48 <luke-jr> jgarzik: expression of someone-who-actually-uses-bitcoind-in-the-real-world
 565 2012-06-25 16:07:02 <luke-jr> good thing those present when gavinandresen brought it up on IRC originally seem to agree
 566 2012-06-25 16:07:24 <luke-jr> didn't know he was going to the forum to ignore the general consensus we had
 567 2012-06-25 16:08:28 <jgarzik> I thought I just NACK'd this
 568 2012-06-25 16:09:28 <jgarzik> heh, Butterfly Labs has 50,000 bitcoins they need to sell, now that BFL opened up orders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89734.0
 569 2012-06-25 16:09:28 <luke-jr> jgarzik: you can't NACK the real world/reality
 570 2012-06-25 16:09:49 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes, sadly, you will continue to post hot air devoid of technical details
 571 2012-06-25 16:10:00 <sipa> luke-jr: afaik all who agreed on the decompositions code, preferred a separate call to decompose (except you)
 572 2012-06-25 16:10:36 <luke-jr> sipa: didn't seem that way. why would anyone prefer that?
 573 2012-06-25 16:10:52 <sipa> it's saner and more flexible
 574 2012-06-25 16:10:53 <TD> lol
 575 2012-06-25 16:11:01 <TD> i wonder which IP/pool is BFL. eclipse?
 576 2012-06-25 16:11:05 <luke-jr> I'd think the getblockhash/getblock combination would have clearly demonstrated what a nusance such behaviour is
 577 2012-06-25 16:11:46 <luke-jr> sipa: how so?
 578 2012-06-25 16:11:52 <luke-jr> sipa: all it does is reduce the functionality
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 580 2012-06-25 16:12:05 <jgarzik> TD: ?
 581 2012-06-25 16:12:15 <sipa> you need more calls to do the same, yes
 582 2012-06-25 16:12:16 <TD> the 50k coins
 583 2012-06-25 16:12:32 <sipa> but it doesn't reduce functionality
 584 2012-06-25 16:12:32 <jgarzik> TD: Bit-pay is the one sitting on 50k coins.  They're a payment processor, handling payments for bitcoin ASICs.
 585 2012-06-25 16:12:40 <jgarzik> not a pool
 586 2012-06-25 16:12:57 <TD> yeah, i mean, are the blocks the ASICs mined visible in blockchain.info or somesuch
 587 2012-06-25 16:13:02 <TD> iirc their screenshots show them all mining against eclipse
 588 2012-06-25 16:13:14 <jgarzik> TD: ASICs are hot air right now
 589 2012-06-25 16:13:20 <jgarzik> TD: BFL is only taking pre-orders
 590 2012-06-25 16:14:20 <luke-jr> sipa: it reduces usability too, at least
 591 2012-06-25 16:18:13 <luke-jr> jgarzik: btw, do you intend to update bitcoinrpc with this "batch" thing?
 592 2012-06-25 16:18:16 * TD wipes brow
 593 2012-06-25 16:18:18 <TD> right
 594 2012-06-25 16:18:32 <TD> leveldb with integrated source, auto migration with progress ui -> done
 595 2012-06-25 16:18:41 <TD> next step, testing on windows
 596 2012-06-25 16:18:46 SomeoneWeird has quit (Excess Flood)
 597 2012-06-25 16:18:54 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hot air...artforz was running them a year+ ago?
 598 2012-06-25 16:18:57 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I am willing to...  suggestions for an interface (python API) are welcome
 599 2012-06-25 16:19:07 <TD> i think he never completed that project? or they were structured asics
 600 2012-06-25 16:19:09 <TD> not quite the same thing
 601 2012-06-25 16:19:15 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: artforz was doing structured ASIC AFAIK
 602 2012-06-25 16:19:22 <BlueMatt> ah, thought he got further, nvm
 603 2012-06-25 16:19:29 <jgarzik> dunno, maybe he did
 604 2012-06-25 16:19:50 <BlueMatt> na, Im probably dreaming
 605 2012-06-25 16:21:55 <drizztbsd> is the last official version 0.6.3?
 606 2012-06-25 16:23:58 <jgarzik> drizztbsd: yes
 607 2012-06-25 16:24:10 <drizztbsd> so is the topic wrong? :P
 608 2012-06-25 16:24:43 Guest39347 has joined
 609 2012-06-25 16:26:57 <epscy> where is artforz now
 610 2012-06-25 16:27:02 <epscy> working for bfl?
 611 2012-06-25 16:27:14 <epscy> that would be funny
 612 2012-06-25 16:27:26 <epscy> that guy is the puppet master
 613 2012-06-25 16:29:05 <sipa> gavinandresen, jgarzik, gmaxwell: i think we may want to reconsider more about the gettransactions and related calls
 614 2012-06-25 16:29:34 <sipa> as the call currently mixes wallet info, blockchain info and spentness info
 615 2012-06-25 16:30:23 <sipa> for efficiency, when async rpc is merged, we'll certainly want calls that do not lock the wallet if not necessary
 616 2012-06-25 16:30:53 <luke-jr> async RPC is already merged
 617 2012-06-25 16:31:13 <luke-jr> well, threaded anyhow, which is the relevant bit afaik
 618 2012-06-25 16:31:19 <sipa> right, i mean the ability for concurrent calls
 619 2012-06-25 16:31:51 <sipa> and some functionality of gettransactions doesn't need any locks
 620 2012-06-25 16:31:59 <sipa> some needs a wallet lock
 621 2012-06-25 16:32:07 <sipa> some needs blockchain info
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 624 2012-06-25 16:33:07 <sipa> somehow it'd feel cleaner to me to keep these separated
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 628 2012-06-25 16:35:22 <sipa> i know i'm changing my mind, as i implemented the querying of the chain in gettransaction myself...
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 635 2012-06-25 16:42:22 <drizztbsd> luke-jr: v0.6.3.0-g6e0c5e3-beta
 636 2012-06-25 16:42:29 <drizztbsd> 0.6.3 wrongly report -beta
 637 2012-06-25 16:43:02 <drizztbsd> is it correct?
 638 2012-06-25 16:43:20 <luke-jr> drizztbsd: all Bitcoin-Qt is beta
 639 2012-06-25 16:43:23 <drizztbsd> oh
 640 2012-06-25 16:43:26 <drizztbsd> ok
 641 2012-06-25 16:46:32 <drizztbsd> now archlinux have 0.6.3 version :P
 642 2012-06-25 16:47:40 PK has joined
 643 2012-06-25 16:49:17 <kinlo> who's the gentoo maintainer?
 644 2012-06-25 16:49:26 <luke-jr> <--
 645 2012-06-25 16:49:30 <kinlo> if archlinux already has 0.6.3... how comes gentoo is still stuck at 0.5 ? :)
 646 2012-06-25 16:49:41 <luke-jr> kinlo: it isn't
 647 2012-06-25 16:49:55 <kinlo> or perhaps I just am doing it wrong
 648 2012-06-25 16:49:57 <luke-jr> 0.6.2 is in the tree
 649 2012-06-25 16:50:11 <luke-jr> 0.6.3 is testing in the overlay
 650 2012-06-25 16:50:15 <guruvan> but it's masked
 651 2012-06-25 16:50:24 <luke-jr> guruvan: no, it's testing keyworded
 652 2012-06-25 16:50:33 simple has joined
 653 2012-06-25 16:50:46 <kinlo> I'll have a look then
 654 2012-06-25 16:50:51 <luke-jr> 0.5.6_rc2 is stable-keyworded
 655 2012-06-25 16:50:52 <simple> the version strings on both windows and linux bitcoind are 'Bitcoin version v0.6.3-beta' still
 656 2012-06-25 16:51:00 <guruvan> oh ok - I didn't really pay much attention to the messages - I just used the --autonumask-write and went with the latest
 657 2012-06-25 16:51:03 <luke-jr> 0.6.3 probably will be promoted to stable in about a month (Gentoo policy on stabilization)
 658 2012-06-25 16:51:17 <sipa> simple: is that unexpected?
 659 2012-06-25 16:51:24 <simple> yes, since the non-beta was just release
 660 2012-06-25 16:51:33 <kinlo> simple: everything is beta
 661 2012-06-25 16:51:37 <sipa> every bitcoin release to date has been beta
 662 2012-06-25 16:51:40 <simple> oh
 663 2012-06-25 16:51:42 <kinlo> simple: there is a difference in "rc" or not
 664 2012-06-25 16:51:44 <simple> very good point
 665 2012-06-25 16:51:51 <simple> i guess it doesn't say rc1 anymore...
 666 2012-06-25 16:51:57 <drizztbsd> well you can request stabilization after a month, but every team have theirs timings :P
 667 2012-06-25 16:51:57 <simple> never mind, non-issue lol
 668 2012-06-25 16:52:07 <luke-jr> drizztbsd: yeah, true
 669 2012-06-25 16:52:19 simple has left ()
 670 2012-06-25 16:52:21 <kinlo> so I need to upgrade again
 671 2012-06-25 16:52:30 <drizztbsd> I was a member of amd64 and powerpc herds
 672 2012-06-25 16:52:32 <drizztbsd> lol
 673 2012-06-25 16:52:35 <luke-jr> kinlo: only if you want 0.6 features
 674 2012-06-25 16:52:41 <sipa> kinlo: when i used gentoo i updated at least once a week :)
 675 2012-06-25 16:52:46 <luke-jr> drizztbsd: I was a developer before herds! :p
 676 2012-06-25 16:52:54 <drizztbsd> OLD!
 677 2012-06-25 16:52:56 <drizztbsd> :D
 678 2012-06-25 16:53:00 <kinlo> I'm not using gentoo on servers :)
 679 2012-06-25 16:53:09 <kinlo> the gentoo thingy is just something to play with
 680 2012-06-25 16:53:09 <sipa> what are herds?
 681 2012-06-25 16:53:14 <drizztbsd> "groups"
 682 2012-06-25 16:53:20 * luke-jr finds that if you don't update Gentoo every week or so, it becomes a pain to update
 683 2012-06-25 16:53:25 <kinlo> but I do like to be current with the production bitcoin clients
 684 2012-06-25 16:53:25 <sipa> i used gentoo in 2005-2007 or so
 685 2012-06-25 16:53:30 <luke-jr> sipa: groups of people with responsibilities
 686 2012-06-25 16:53:33 <sipa> ok
 687 2012-06-25 16:53:47 <luke-jr> sipa: so the amd64 herd is responsible for makign anything stable on amd64
 688 2012-06-25 16:54:24 <sipa> right
 689 2012-06-25 16:56:11 <kinlo> I think 0.6.3 is important for pools, coz the propagation is faster, no?
 690 2012-06-25 16:56:18 <luke-jr> kinlo: not much
 691 2012-06-25 16:56:49 <luke-jr> I guess we should do a group test of that block preview patch or it'll just sit on the back-burner :/
 692 2012-06-25 16:57:06 <kinlo> luke-jr: the hub thing?
 693 2012-06-25 16:57:15 <luke-jr> kinlo: no, the relaying blocks before validating their txns
 694 2012-06-25 16:57:45 <sipa> is there a pullreq for that?
 695 2012-06-25 16:58:01 <luke-jr> sipa: no; I figure it should be tested at least a little first
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 697 2012-06-25 16:58:17 <sipa> i'll test it later today
 698 2012-06-25 16:58:25 <luke-jr> my 'fastblockrelay' branch
 699 2012-06-25 16:58:42 <luke-jr> anyone else want to join in the testing?
 700 2012-06-25 17:00:20 bitllc has joined
 701 2012-06-25 17:03:03 <gmaxwell> 09:25 < sipa> gavinandresen, jgarzik, gmaxwell: i think we may want to reconsider more about the gettransactions and related calls
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 703 2012-06-25 17:03:17 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately some really important information is not cheap to retrieve in our current setup.
 704 2012-06-25 17:03:32 <gmaxwell> E.g. what are the fees on a transaction?  Oops, go fetch the inputs!
 705 2012-06-25 17:03:53 <gmaxwell> and a gettransaction that gives you transaction data but no fees? bleh.
 706 2012-06-25 17:03:56 <gmaxwell> Thats confusing.
 707 2012-06-25 17:04:52 <sipa> if the pruning stuff gets finished and merged, it will be cheap
 708 2012-06-25 17:05:45 <sipa> querying the block file will give you the raw transaction data, and input amounts/scripts
 709 2012-06-25 17:06:03 <sipa> querying the txout set will give you whether the ouputs are available
 710 2012-06-25 17:06:22 <sipa> querying the wallet will give you whatever the sender or receiver cares about
 711 2012-06-25 17:06:42 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
 712 2012-06-25 17:08:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it's a lot faster when you're not dying on IO already, I don't know why your nodes are so crazy slow.
 713 2012-06-25 17:08:58 <gmaxwell> oh. hm. what bdb version are you using?
 714 2012-06-25 17:09:22 <gmaxwell> Didn't jgarzik discover that the newever version basically mooted our recent improvements?
 715 2012-06-25 17:09:47 <sipa> gavinandresen, luke-jr: my windows build matches; linux again doesn't
 716 2012-06-25 17:09:58 <sipa> i wonder if my base image is damaged maybe
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 720 2012-06-25 17:10:42 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 4.8
 721 2012-06-25 17:10:51 <gmaxwell> hm. k.
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 723 2012-06-25 17:16:47 <gavinandresen> back.  RE: gettransaction:  I agree that mixing the wallet and non-wallet information is at the very least weird.  Perhaps the get-chain-info should be a new 'getanytransaction' RPC call
 724 2012-06-25 17:17:12 <gavinandresen> It is also possible some service will break if they were relying on gettransaction returning nothing for non-wallet transaction
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 726 2012-06-25 17:17:48 <gmaxwell> It's still goofed up if get$footransaction doesn't tell you the fees. The point on gettransaction there is ... alarming. Yes, that could be bad.
 727 2012-06-25 17:18:16 <gmaxwell> Change a url and now all the coins are yours!
 728 2012-06-25 17:18:50 <luke-jr> O.o
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 734 2012-06-25 17:28:08 <jgarzik> luke-jr: FWIW I honestly have no clue what a batch bitcoinrpc API might look like.  if you or someone else can create python client code that imagines using a batch API, I can create the API side for it
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 736 2012-06-25 17:28:44 <jgarzik> the entire bitcoinrpc API assumes method(args) initiates a json-rpc and returns only after rpc completion
 737 2012-06-25 17:28:56 <jgarzik> batching calls and results is entirely disconnected from that flow
 738 2012-06-25 17:29:27 <luke-jr> jgarzik: perhaps batch(obj.method(args), obj.method(args), …) ?
 739 2012-06-25 17:30:25 <luke-jr> otoh, even if that's possible, it might be difficult to combine with varargs
 740 2012-06-25 17:30:58 RainbowDashh has joined
 741 2012-06-25 17:32:13 <luke-jr> seems like this is really something that should be a language feature first - call multiple methods concurrently and return their results in an array
 742 2012-06-25 17:32:44 <luke-jr> maybe just an ugly obj._batchcall( (method, args), … ) for now?
 743 2012-06-25 17:32:49 <sipa> some high-level client-side batching would be useful
 744 2012-06-25 17:33:04 <sipa> maybe some aliases could be defined for high-level methods
 745 2012-06-25 17:33:42 <luke-jr> sipa: you mean the CLI use? bitcoinrpc is jgarzik's Python module
 746 2012-06-25 17:35:02 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/joshmarshall/jsonrpclib    :  supports Batch submission (via MultiCall)
 747 2012-06-25 17:35:31 <sipa> luke-jr: i'm talking about a hypothetical more advanced CLI tool
 748 2012-06-25 17:35:55 <sipa> instead of bitcoind being CLI client
 749 2012-06-25 17:36:49 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that does look usable
 750 2012-06-25 17:36:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: It's called jgarzik's python module. :)
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 752 2012-06-25 17:38:03 * luke-jr will have to remember to do some benchmarks when gavinandresen's pullreq comes in, to confirm just how much a hit it makes
 753 2012-06-25 17:38:17 <jgarzik> >>> batch = jsonrpclib.MultiCall(server)
 754 2012-06-25 17:38:17 <jgarzik> >>> batch.add(3, 50)
 755 2012-06-25 17:38:17 <jgarzik> >>> batch.add(2, 3)
 756 2012-06-25 17:38:17 <jgarzik> >>> batch._notify.add(3, 5)
 757 2012-06-25 17:38:17 <jgarzik> >>> batch()
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 759 2012-06-25 17:39:02 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ultimately if speed is really critical the hex encoding is probably as much of a concern as the seperate calls.
 760 2012-06-25 17:39:40 <sipa> i doubt that
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 762 2012-06-25 17:40:07 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: there is more HTTP overhead than data, when talking about a 'getrawmempool' + X gettransactions calls
 763 2012-06-25 17:40:11 <jgarzik> *call pattern
 764 2012-06-25 17:40:41 <jgarzik> and while pipelining the gettransactions calls is possible, most client libs aren't so smart
 765 2012-06-25 17:40:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I'm more concerned about calculating all the extra decompositions I don't need (possibly including disk I/O) etc
 766 2012-06-25 17:40:53 <gavinandresen> JSON-RPC is designed to run across a plain old filesystem pipe, raw socket, ....
 767 2012-06-25 17:41:26 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: then do your own decompositions?  perhaps that code should get pulled out as a library?
 768 2012-06-25 17:41:50 <gavinandresen> disk io is why I think removing the requires-fetching-previous-transaction info from the vin[] output
 769 2012-06-25 17:41:59 <gavinandresen> ... is a good idea
 770 2012-06-25 17:42:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: so we need to have the same code in N different libraries for each language someone might use?
 771 2012-06-25 17:42:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: and have more problems with upgrades?
 772 2012-06-25 17:42:26 <sipa> or one library with bindings in many languages
 773 2012-06-25 17:42:32 <sipa> hey, isn't that libbitcoin?
 774 2012-06-25 17:42:35 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: If only thought of a way of making one language callable by all others?!
 775 2012-06-25 17:42:43 <jgarzik> WRT JSON batches, was already thinking about: batch = JSONBatch() ; batch.add() ... ; results[] = batch.execute()
 776 2012-06-25 17:42:44 <luke-jr> sipa: afaik libbitcoin is just C++
 777 2012-06-25 17:42:48 <jgarzik> for bitcoinrpc
 778 2012-06-25 17:42:59 <sipa> luke-jr: it has python bindings afaik
 779 2012-06-25 17:43:27 <luke-jr> so why do I need to reinvent the wheel because bitcoind wants to make life harder? :/
 780 2012-06-25 17:43:40 <gmaxwell> Because using RPC calls to decode data is weird?
 781 2012-06-25 17:43:43 <luke-jr> I'll just go back to patching in dumpblock - far easier
 782 2012-06-25 17:44:02 <jgarzik> ACK/NAK troll -- RPC getnetstats -- https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1510
 783 2012-06-25 17:44:04 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: What do you need decompositions for in programmatic usage?
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 785 2012-06-25 17:45:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: interface looks fine, but getting the actual list of peers and stats per peer would be much more useful.
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 787 2012-06-25 17:45:13 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: maybe I don't, but I'd need to rewrite a lot of code to avoid using it right now
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 789 2012-06-25 17:45:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I agree, but that was potential controvery (RE privacy), and warranted discussion
 790 2012-06-25 17:45:43 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: this is why the code is pre-release, so we can get this stuff right without having to worry about legacy.
 791 2012-06-25 17:45:55 <jgarzik> *controversy
 792 2012-06-25 17:46:01 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: considering we log the information…
 793 2012-06-25 17:46:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: if everyone ACKs per-peer info in there, I will add it
 794 2012-06-25 17:46:23 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I just don't think making the user do *more* work is "getting it right"
 795 2012-06-25 17:46:36 <gmaxwell> I think some people will be stupid "omg I'm connected to china!" but it'll be worth it I think.
 796 2012-06-25 17:46:58 <gmaxwell> Esp hidden service debugging has been a little annoying for want of an API to see who's currently connected without parsing out the logs.
 797 2012-06-25 17:47:36 <sipa> luke-jr: neither is throwing out all information you got, and get people to rely on it at a point where keeping the same interface becomes a nightmare to maintain
 798 2012-06-25 17:48:04 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: every bit of api complexity we add is more to support and more work for a fork/clone to deal with— so we should try to be somewhat conservative with options. I like getting the decompositions for troubleshooting power user use... but its staisfied by spamming you.
 799 2012-06-25 17:48:05 <sipa> if there are 5 ways to get the same information now, we can only add more ways later
 800 2012-06-25 17:48:11 <luke-jr> sipa: hence why decompositions allow the user to tell you exactly what they need
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 802 2012-06-25 17:48:55 <sipa> luke-jr: i don't think you get the point
 803 2012-06-25 17:48:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't  understand "but its staisfied by spamming you."
 804 2012-06-25 17:49:01 <sipa> (neither do i)
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 806 2012-06-25 17:49:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: the option to simply get all the decompositions covers the troubleshooting use case.
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 812 2012-06-25 17:51:07 <luke-jr> also, object-based parameters *improves* the ability to extend the API in the future, whereas booleans ends up with 10 different commands (send* anyone?) that vary by parameters
 813 2012-06-25 17:52:08 <sipa> you have a point there, but i don't disagree about the decomposition itself
 814 2012-06-25 17:52:15 <gavinandresen> I have been tempted to teach the RPC interface to take either an array of params OR key/value Object with named params.... but that's just not high priority
 815 2012-06-25 17:52:26 <sipa> it is about offering 5 different ways of getting it
 816 2012-06-25 17:53:09 <luke-jr> sipa: decomposition is more about offering 5 differnet information, without forcing the user to spend time waiting for other information it doesn't want
 817 2012-06-25 17:53:16 <luke-jr> not merely ways of getting the same info
 818 2012-06-25 17:53:17 <sipa> i know what it is about
 819 2012-06-25 17:53:36 <sipa> and it is useful
 820 2012-06-25 17:53:44 <sipa> but it is also an extra burden to maintain
 821 2012-06-25 17:53:48 <gmaxwell> Well you cut out half of it by just deciding that it's not going to do the obj type expansion— use batch json for that usecase.
 822 2012-06-25 17:53:58 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I thought about that, too
 823 2012-06-25 17:54:03 <jgarzik> since JSON-RPC in theory supports it
 824 2012-06-25 17:54:04 <gmaxwell> ID, raw data, and decodes all have substantial usecases.
 825 2012-06-25 17:54:30 <gmaxwell> ID is needed for the programmatic batch accesses, raw data is needed for tools, and the decodes are needed for troubleshooting and power user use.
 826 2012-06-25 17:55:30 <luke-jr> ok, I definitely agree the "obj" decomposition is less necessary than the rest
 827 2012-06-25 17:55:37 <luke-jr> for scripts, at least
 828 2012-06-25 17:55:56 <gmaxwell> I think it's also much of the unwanted complexity.
 829 2012-06-25 17:56:48 <luke-jr> so how about just removing "script":"obj" decomposition, and letting the rest be?
 830 2012-06-25 17:57:07 <gmaxwell> And really, I use the decodes almost every day. Getting it into the hands of advanced users (esp via the GUI console interface) will be helpful in fostering solid technical understanding of the bitcoin system.
 831 2012-06-25 17:57:17 <luke-jr> that's a simple git revert 7e63dc3
 832 2012-06-25 17:59:01 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: jgarzik: does that sound good enough to you?
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 835 2012-06-25 17:59:30 <gmaxwell> I think there is a general opposition to the choose your flavor arguments.
 836 2012-06-25 18:00:10 <gavinandresen> yes, even after reading the code I couldn't figure out how to make gettransaction output what I needed to test the raw transaction API
 837 2012-06-25 18:00:32 <gavinandresen> (yes to gmaxwell-- I don't want '{"foo":"bar"}' ....)
 838 2012-06-25 18:01:11 <gmaxwell> I wasted about an hour figuring that out even while reading the code, because I was swapping " and ', apparently I'm json stupid.
 839 2012-06-25 18:01:42 <luke-jr> [17:48:30] <gavinandresen> I have been tempted to teach the RPC interface to take either an array of params OR key/value Object with named params…. but that's just not high priority
 840 2012-06-25 18:01:46 <luke-jr> ^ how is that different?
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 842 2012-06-25 18:03:57 <gavinandresen> it's not different, you'd be able to do either  ./bitcoind listtransactions 0 10   or   ./bitcoind listtransactions '{"start
 843 2012-06-25 18:04:05 <gavinandresen> ":0, "n":10}'
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 846 2012-06-25 18:04:16 <gavinandresen> The latter is a lot less convenient.
 847 2012-06-25 18:04:38 <gavinandresen> (unless you're working in python where it would be listtransactions(size=10, n=1)
 848 2012-06-25 18:04:49 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so… 'gettransaction txid hex/asm/obj' would be better to you?
 849 2012-06-25 18:06:36 <gavinandresen> I don't want to spend any more time fence-painting this with you.  I think the general consensus here is there are two cases:  a machine is getting the information and will decode itself (because it is quicker), or you're a geek looking for human-readable output.
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 851 2012-06-25 18:07:32 <gmaxwell> Is there even really a disagreement anymore?
 852 2012-06-25 18:08:29 <luke-jr> I think there's a lack of input from other software developers actually *using* these calls; I seem to be the only one here
 853 2012-06-25 18:08:43 <gavinandresen> I think we need to split the 'get any transaction' into it's own routine anyway, because I think gmaxwell is right-- there is a real danger somebody will be hacked because they assumed gettransaction only returns wallet transactions
 854 2012-06-25 18:08:59 <sipa> ACK
 855 2012-06-25 18:09:05 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: I thought you had given up on the HTTP RPC interface.
 856 2012-06-25 18:09:18 danbri_ has joined
 857 2012-06-25 18:09:20 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: ?
 858 2012-06-25 18:09:31 <PK> I'm using listtransactions for my web ui.
 859 2012-06-25 18:10:44 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought you were convinced that JSON could never be fast enough for a front-end <--> bitcoind communication mechanism.  Could have you confused with somebody else.
 860 2012-06-25 18:10:46 <PK> But didn't have to bother with gettransactions yet.
 861 2012-06-25 18:10:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well, if we burn them— they ought to show up here then.
 862 2012-06-25 18:10:57 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I wasn't talking about using it for a GUI
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 864 2012-06-25 18:11:44 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: except they've never had this functionality to begin with - more likely they'll just continue updating whatever dumpblock patch they're using
 865 2012-06-25 18:12:25 <luke-jr> I think PiUK and tcatm's input here is important, to be specific
 866 2012-06-25 18:12:33 <luke-jr> (tcatm runs BBE, right?)
 867 2012-06-25 18:12:45 <sipa> theymos does, no?
 868 2012-06-25 18:13:31 <luke-jr> maybe, I confuse the two of them too easily
 869 2012-06-25 18:13:46 <sipa> tcatm runs bitcoincharts
 870 2012-06-25 18:14:03 <sipa> i thought
 871 2012-06-25 18:14:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: right now the extra stuff getting called with the RPCs means that they're somewhat slow. Otherwise— the geek usecase is basically the same as that.
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 875 2012-06-25 18:17:01 <luke-jr> the geek usecase isn't very usable, if he has to iterate over every transaction
 876 2012-06-25 18:17:49 <gmaxwell> my bash history indicates that most of the time I'm pulling single txn.
 877 2012-06-25 18:18:04 <gmaxwell> where I have iterated it's actually been to walk the txn history.
 878 2012-06-25 18:18:42 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: do you think that would be the case if you were analyzing your blocks?
 879 2012-06-25 18:19:27 <jgarzik> <gavinandresen> I think the general consensus here is there are two cases:  a machine is getting the information and will decode itself (because it is quicker), or you're a geek looking for human-readable output.  <<-- ACK
 880 2012-06-25 18:19:28 <jgarzik> x2
 881 2012-06-25 18:19:38 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well, I've done that (to check p2pool orphans for trouble transactions)— but what I'm doing there is dumping the txids to a file and diffing the files then looking at single txn.
 882 2012-06-25 18:20:19 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I've never done that - I look at the transaction asm
 883 2012-06-25 18:20:27 <jgarzik> <gavinandresen> I think we need to split the 'get any transaction' into it's own routine anyway  <<-- ACK
 884 2012-06-25 18:20:30 <gmaxwell> also if you want to view all of them   for id in `bitcoind getblock | grep ''` ; do bitcoind gettransaction $id ;  done ....
 885 2012-06-25 18:20:49 <gmaxwell> (and who cares if thats slow because it forks 1000 times?)
 886 2012-06-25 18:21:22 <jgarzik> getrawtransaction <hash> [pretty_print: true/false]
 887 2012-06-25 18:21:44 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: is it really that simple?
 888 2012-06-25 18:21:59 <sturles> jgarzik: I have been trying to compile your filter branch, but: http://pastebin.com/FbKY3nQy
 889 2012-06-25 18:22:05 <gavinandresen> raw transaction API has a decoderawtransaction <hex-encoded-serialized-transaction>  that always pretty-prints
 890 2012-06-25 18:22:10 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: you need a bit of sed to strip the quotes, but yet.
 891 2012-06-25 18:22:13 <gmaxwell> er yes.
 892 2012-06-25 18:22:19 <jgarzik> sturles: #filter doesn't work anymore, due to upstream changes
 893 2012-06-25 18:22:24 <gmaxwell> one sec, I'll give you the example.
 894 2012-06-25 18:22:37 <sturles> jgarzik: Any plans to update it?
 895 2012-06-25 18:23:04 <gavinandresen> ... so the Real(tm) geek way would be    ./bitcoind decoderawtransaction $(./bitcoind getrawtransaction txid)
 896 2012-06-25 18:23:06 <jgarzik> sturles: yes... after CBlockStore mess settles out.  the filter-in-P2P seems more urgent
 897 2012-06-25 18:23:20 <sturles> OK
 898 2012-06-25 18:23:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK worthy
 899 2012-06-25 18:23:41 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that gets ugly when you have -rpcuser=… -rpcpassword=… ;p
 900 2012-06-25 18:23:51 <jgarzik> getrawtransaction <hash>  is nice and simple
 901 2012-06-25 18:23:59 <luke-jr> and perhaps more important: it doesn't work at all in the Bitcoin-Qt Debug console
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 903 2012-06-25 18:24:30 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: for id in `bd getblock 00000000000001c1d6fc3c73153eb9f0d2ac0fe062ae41faaeab35759f89dd14 | grep '     ' | sed -e 's/[ ",]//g'` ; do bd gettransaction $id ; done
 904 2012-06-25 18:24:30 * luke-jr ponders making txids right-click-able in Bitcoin-Qt
 905 2012-06-25 18:24:50 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: and once 0.7.0 is shipping I'll make a great big wiki page with examples like that.
 906 2012-06-25 18:24:53 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I think that demonstrates my original point on usability <.<
 907 2012-06-25 18:25:21 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I went looking for "JSON tools for Unix geeks" but didn't find any... started to write my own
 908 2012-06-25 18:25:26 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: "raw transaction API has" ...  does this imply you already have written the code for this?  :)
 909 2012-06-25 18:25:38 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: hard things should be hard, easy things easy. Getting the decodes for all txn in a block isn't exactly the simplest usecase.
 910 2012-06-25 18:25:56 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, but I'm iterating over it
 911 2012-06-25 18:26:00 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: with my example there you could trivially write exach txn to a file.. or grep it for interesting bits.
 912 2012-06-25 18:26:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 'getrawtransaction <hash>' seems easily and immediately upstream-able
 913 2012-06-25 18:27:12 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ACK, as soon as I'm done announcing 0.6.3 I'll switch back to that work
 914 2012-06-25 18:28:08 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: e.g. for id in `bd getblock 00000000000001c1d6fc3c73153eb9f0d2ac0fe062ae41faaeab35759f89dd14 | grep '     ' | sed -e 's/[ ",]//g'` ; do bd gettransaction $id '{"script":"asm"}' | sed -e 's/[" ]/\n/g' | grep OP; done) | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
 915 2012-06-25 18:28:16 <gmaxwell> (get a histogram of opcodes in a block)
 916 2012-06-25 18:36:21 <jgarzik> bleh.  "Update master"
 917 2012-06-25 18:36:31 <jgarzik> we really should insist on better commit messages than that
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 923 2012-06-25 18:41:25 <topi`> luke-jr: why is it so that eligius has only paid me around 0.6 btc during the last 2 days? usually I get steady payment
 924 2012-06-25 18:42:08 <gmaxwell> topi`: You might want to ask in #eligius— other eligus users might answer you there.. in here you ~only get luke.
 925 2012-06-25 18:42:26 <topi`> good point
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 932 2012-06-25 19:15:11 <sipa> anyone have a fast node i can -connect to for block sync?
 933 2012-06-25 19:16:09 <sipa> seems my vps does just fine, nvm :)
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 946 2012-06-25 19:49:22 <jgarzik> sipa: us[24].exmulti.net, eu3.exmulti.net
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 949 2012-06-25 19:51:24 <MysteryBanshee> urgh why are blocks always take so long and my transactions never make it in?
 950 2012-06-25 19:55:55 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 951 2012-06-25 19:55:55 <gribble> 186212
 952 2012-06-25 19:56:22 <sipa> MysteryBanshee: probably because the network is flooded by tons of transactions that pay more fee than yours
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 961 2012-06-25 20:18:52 <xorgate> any url for 0.6.3 DOS attack description?
 962 2012-06-25 20:24:58 <luke-jr> xorgate: it's not disclosed
 963 2012-06-25 20:25:26 <xorgate> right i see now, just found it at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2012-3789
 964 2012-06-25 20:28:44 Diapolo has joined
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 966 2012-06-25 20:29:46 <sipa> 203 MB of transactions that send to SD
 967 2012-06-25 20:29:47 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 968 2012-06-25 20:30:06 <sipa> 248 MB of transactions that spend SD coins
 969 2012-06-25 20:30:22 <sipa> (and no overlap between both categories)
 970 2012-06-25 20:30:24 <gmaxwell> weird. Why are there more of the latter?
 971 2012-06-25 20:30:33 <gmaxwell> (well more volume)
 972 2012-06-25 20:30:38 <sipa> i suppose non-compressed pubkeys are the cause
 973 2012-06-25 20:30:43 <gmaxwell> :(
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 976 2012-06-25 20:31:05 <sipa> the good news: after pruning, 1.2 MB remains
 977 2012-06-25 20:32:18 <sipa> (104 kB of the to-SD txouts, and 1.1 MB of SD-spending-txouts)
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 981 2012-06-25 20:34:29 <luke-jr> is there a way to trick SD into a loop? <.<
 982 2012-06-25 20:34:49 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: matthewnealwright opened pull request 40 on bitcoin/bitcoin.org <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/40>
 983 2012-06-25 20:36:11 <sipa> luke-jr: hmm?
 984 2012-06-25 20:36:46 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 985 2012-06-25 20:38:22 <nanotube> if .3 is officially released, someone needs to update the website.
 986 2012-06-25 20:38:31 <luke-jr> sipa: just pondering if there's a way to get SD placing bets against itself <.<
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 988 2012-06-25 20:41:14 <sipa> luke-jr: sounds hard; you need to construct a transaction that uses an SD address as source
 989 2012-06-25 20:41:20 asuk has joined
 990 2012-06-25 20:42:40 <gavinandresen> nanotube: thanks, I forgot to pull request changes
 991 2012-06-25 20:43:00 <gmaxwell> they have a thing to send txn to alternative outputs.
 992 2012-06-25 20:43:06 <gmaxwell> you also pay where you want the coins to go.
 993 2012-06-25 20:44:19 Cory has joined
 994 2012-06-25 20:44:29 <sipa> aha!
 995 2012-06-25 20:44:54 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 41 on bitcoin/bitcoin.org <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/41> || Diapolo opened pull request 1519 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1519>
 996 2012-06-25 20:47:07 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: This is a bug-fix release with no new features.? :p
 997 2012-06-25 20:47:42 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 998 2012-06-25 20:47:56 <luke-jr> normally there's a changelog
 999 2012-06-25 20:47:58 * luke-jr shrugs
1000 2012-06-25 20:48:49 <luke-jr> hmm, I forget the URI to trigger bitcoin.org to update
1001 2012-06-25 20:49:01 MobiusL has joined
1002 2012-06-25 20:49:43 <gmaxwell> I has it
1003 2012-06-25 20:50:14 bitllc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1004 2012-06-25 20:50:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: anyone tried setting that extra output to SD itself?
1005 2012-06-25 20:50:34 <gmaxwell> Nope.
1006 2012-06-25 20:50:48 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: can you post here? I usually grep my IRC logs, but I rotated/archived my older ones >_<
1007 2012-06-25 20:51:11 <gmaxwell> I sent you a PM, I don't think it should be public because of some idiot potentially calling it in a loop.
1008 2012-06-25 20:51:11 <graingert> luke-jr: bitcoin-dev is a logged channel
1009 2012-06-25 20:51:18 <luke-jr> o
1010 2012-06-25 20:51:39 <luke-jr> hmm
1011 2012-06-25 20:51:42 <luke-jr> is it not working?
1012 2012-06-25 20:52:06 <gmaxwell> I got the ack from it when I called it a moment ago. it takes a little bit
1013 2012-06-25 20:52:25 bitllc has joined
1014 2012-06-25 20:52:27 <graingert> gmaxwell: shiney a new DOS attack
1015 2012-06-25 20:52:57 <sipa> a dos attack against github's updater? good luck
1016 2012-06-25 20:53:17 <gmaxwell> well, its some script tcatm has setup to throb the github updater.
1017 2012-06-25 20:53:26 <sipa> ah
1018 2012-06-25 20:53:57 <gmaxwell> (it's complexified due to the ruby macro replacement stuff, I think)
1019 2012-06-25 20:54:16 <Diapolo> it's sometimes so damn weird to idle here ^^
1020 2012-06-25 20:57:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell gavinandresen: what should getpeerinfo return?  address, port.  nservices?  version?  height?  per-command stats as per https://gist.github.com/2980975 ?
1021 2012-06-25 20:59:38 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: while you're at it, mind adding a command to get info on connections to -addnode'd peers?
1022 2012-06-25 20:59:43 <gmaxwell> network type. inbound vs outbound, uptime.  DOS score.
1023 2012-06-25 20:59:44 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: address/port/version, definitely.  current banscore (although that'll almost always be zero).  incoming/outgoing.  and I'd like to know the timestamp when it connected (is that stored?).
1024 2012-06-25 20:59:45 <sipa> jgarzik: time since last send/receive, time connected, destination
1025 2012-06-25 21:00:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: iirc, it is
1026 2012-06-25 21:00:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: did you update the PPA yet?
1027 2012-06-25 21:00:21 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, thanks need to do that
1028 2012-06-25 21:00:26 theodore has joined
1029 2012-06-25 21:00:45 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: also, Launchpad is noting there's a newer db4.8 to port
1030 2012-06-25 21:00:51 <sipa> there's probably a few more interesting things in CNode
1031 2012-06-25 21:01:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and yes, block/txn/inv counts  (e.g. which node is flooding me?) would be useful
1032 2012-06-25 21:01:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: network type isn't stored now
1033 2012-06-25 21:01:56 <sipa> i believe we do store the last advertized local address
1034 2012-06-25 21:02:19 makomk has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1035 2012-06-25 21:02:39 <gmaxwell> perhaps 'last block advertised to us's hash'
1036 2012-06-25 21:02:48 <gmaxwell> rather than / addition to height
1037 2012-06-25 21:02:51 <gmaxwell> network time offset.
1038 2012-06-25 21:03:26 <gmaxwell> (on the hash, the point is seeing if any peers are on forks)
1039 2012-06-25 21:04:19 * jgarzik logs
1040 2012-06-25 21:04:40 * jgarzik also wants to poke at boost's zlib filters.  It should be possible to trivially compress JSON-RPC output.
1041 2012-06-25 21:04:57 <jgarzik> client supplies accept-encoding, to trigger
1042 2012-06-25 21:05:19 * gmaxwell looks at list of zlib remote vulnerablities
1043 2012-06-25 21:05:29 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1044 2012-06-25 21:05:34 * gmaxwell grows old before finding the end
1045 2012-06-25 21:05:44 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1046 2012-06-25 21:05:50 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1047 2012-06-25 21:05:55 <gmaxwell> (if it's pre-auth, then thats bad)
1048 2012-06-25 21:06:08 <jgarzik> -output-, post auth and only generated by bitcoind
1049 2012-06-25 21:06:51 <gmaxwell> yea, encode is obviously much safer. :)
1050 2012-06-25 21:06:53 <luke-jr> does zlib provide any benefit for localhost?
1051 2012-06-25 21:06:58 <jgarzik> compressed input is inconvenient to code, and not as much benefit
1052 2012-06-25 21:07:01 <sipa> luke-jr: no
1053 2012-06-25 21:07:01 <theodore> guys, i need help and am on a time crunch would appreciate it
1054 2012-06-25 21:07:06 <theodore> how do you reinstall Ubuntu?
1055 2012-06-25 21:07:13 <theodore> without any external media
1056 2012-06-25 21:07:19 <helo> theodore: #ubuntu
1057 2012-06-25 21:07:34 <theodore> damn
1058 2012-06-25 21:07:34 <sipa> luke-jr: i don't think it even makes sense for a fast LAN
1059 2012-06-25 21:07:36 <theodore> thought you guys would know
1060 2012-06-25 21:07:47 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: zlib is fast.. but not that fast..
1061 2012-06-25 21:08:36 <gmaxwell> Lz4 (>>1gbit/sec encode+decode) or something like that could be a win on a lan, but not locally.
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1063 2012-06-25 21:08:47 <gmaxwell> and zlib is nowhere near that fast.
1064 2012-06-25 21:09:26 <luke-jr> is JSON-RPC still "intended for localhost only"?
1065 2012-06-25 21:09:58 * jgarzik certainly uses JSON-RPC over WAN all the time
1066 2012-06-25 21:10:29 <sturles> Against bitcoind?
1067 2012-06-25 21:10:34 chrisb__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1068 2012-06-25 21:10:38 <gmaxwell> we wouldn't have allowip otherwise, I suppose. there are certantly cases for doing it remotely. esp on coinless nodes.
1069 2012-06-25 21:10:48 <graingert> use a caching proxy like nginx
1070 2012-06-25 21:10:51 <gmaxwell> personally I ssh -L it, and that does zlib compression.
1071 2012-06-25 21:11:02 <graingert> to do the gzip
1072 2012-06-25 21:11:12 <graingert> s/caching/revserse/
1073 2012-06-25 21:11:23 <graingert> s/revserse/reverse/
1074 2012-06-25 21:14:48 <luke-jr> hmm
1075 2012-06-25 21:14:56 <luke-jr> does the builtin SSL support do it already, I wonder?
1076 2012-06-25 21:15:34 Apexseals has quit ()
1077 2012-06-25 21:25:11 <luke-jr> I get the feeling I'm stressing gavinandresen and jgarzik out today, so I'm going to take a break for a bit. ttyl
1078 2012-06-25 21:25:30 theodore has quit (Quit: theodore)
1079 2012-06-25 21:27:33 Diapolo has left ()
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1082 2012-06-25 21:33:54 <jgarzik> luke-jr: no, that's a useful observation.  if WAN is always SSL, and SSL includes compression, maybe there's the answer
1083 2012-06-25 21:34:41 * jgarzik was thinking that to himself as he was carrying baby diaper trash out to the street
1084 2012-06-25 21:34:43 makomk has joined
1085 2012-06-25 21:36:16 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1086 2012-06-25 21:38:54 <graingert> hmm
1087 2012-06-25 21:39:02 <graingert> I didn't know it had built in SSL
1088 2012-06-25 21:39:42 <graingert> seems a bit pointless I thought the standard pattern was to slap nginx or ssh in front of insecure locally hosted daemons
1089 2012-06-25 21:39:45 shurnormal has quit (Quit: http://driedleaves.no-ip.org)
1090 2012-06-25 21:43:11 makomk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1091 2012-06-25 21:43:26 makomk has joined
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1093 2012-06-25 21:48:26 <gmaxwell> graingert: nginx in front of an _rpc_ interface? This seems rather questionable to me. ... ssh yea.. well, we're linking openssl for other stuff anyways. Though the SSL support makes me twitch a little.
1094 2012-06-25 21:48:48 <graingert> gmaxwell: yeah what's the issue with that?
1095 2012-06-25 21:48:57 <graingert> nginx is used in front of SPARQL boxes
1096 2012-06-25 21:49:00 <graingert> and node.js
1097 2012-06-25 21:49:39 <graingert> drop the ssl support and recommend people proxy through apache or nginx or some sane place for SSL
1098 2012-06-25 21:49:43 <gmaxwell> graingert: it's a lot of extra memcpys and an additional failure point for zero benefit except wrapping with SSL— it would all be passthrough.
1099 2012-06-25 21:50:11 <graingert> well I use it for adding SSL and caching to node.js
1100 2012-06-25 21:50:15 <gmaxwell> The recommendation is not to expose the rpc port to the internet at all. Failure to heed this advice has gotten a bunch of people robbed.
1101 2012-06-25 21:50:25 <gmaxwell> Yes, caching makes absolutely no sense in this context.
1102 2012-06-25 21:50:32 <graingert> of course
1103 2012-06-25 21:50:49 <graingert> but adding SSL I'd rather have it handled by the nginx guys
1104 2012-06-25 21:50:55 <graingert> than bitcoin
1105 2012-06-25 21:51:18 <graingert> it's also got fancy logging stuff
1106 2012-06-25 21:51:34 <graingert> so I can see which tor endpoint robbed me
1107 2012-06-25 21:51:38 <graingert> exit node*
1108 2012-06-25 21:52:07 <jrmithdobbs> why they're both very simple wrappers around openssl
1109 2012-06-25 21:52:16 <graingert> jrmithdobbs: what are?
1110 2012-06-25 21:52:24 <jrmithdobbs> ngnix and bitcoin's use of openssl for rpc
1111 2012-06-25 21:52:31 <graingert> true but fancy logging
1112 2012-06-25 21:52:31 <gmaxwell> graingert: we need logging regardless of their being ssl (and we have it).
1113 2012-06-25 21:52:41 <gmaxwell> s/their/there/
1114 2012-06-25 21:52:43 <graingert> you have logging?
1115 2012-06-25 21:52:47 <jrmithdobbs> yes
1116 2012-06-25 21:52:48 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1117 2012-06-25 21:52:50 <graingert> fancy
1118 2012-06-25 21:53:11 <jrmithdobbs> graingert: -printtoconsole + svlogd so you can actually keep enough logs for them to be useful but not fill your disks
1119 2012-06-25 21:53:11 <graingert> yeah but I also want to shard my bitcoin boxes
1120 2012-06-25 21:53:30 <gmaxwell> Besides, when it becomes possible to seperate the wallets and the core daemon we'll want to use ssl for that too.
1121 2012-06-25 21:53:31 <graingert> with an nginx front end
1122 2012-06-25 21:53:52 <graingert> well not ssl on the same box
1123 2012-06-25 21:53:55 <gmaxwell> graingert: then do what you want, though that doesn't make a lot of sense.
1124 2012-06-25 21:54:08 <graingert> yes but it's web scale
1125 2012-06-25 21:54:16 <jrmithdobbs> nginx doesn't really buy you anything here tho, even if you want to do load balancing and stuff there's no reason to strip openssl out of the codebase
1126 2012-06-25 21:54:17 <gmaxwell> You're trying to get banned, right? :P
1127 2012-06-25 21:54:21 <graingert> >.>
1128 2012-06-25 21:54:39 * gmaxwell waits for the mention of DHTs and XSLT.
1129 2012-06-25 21:54:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: obviously we'll use completely self-written EC code that identifies using Bitcoin keys!
1130 2012-06-25 21:54:54 <jrmithdobbs> and load balancing bitcoin rpc could get hairy (and have to be sticky in current form) anywys since you'll be talking to multiple different nodes with different wallets and such
1131 2012-06-25 21:55:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: I did half expect us to do that. :(  The ssl cert model sucks even for that.
1132 2012-06-25 21:55:16 <graingert> what's wrong with dbus
1133 2012-06-25 21:55:23 <gmaxwell> I'd like to be able to create a bitcoin node url that packs the host/port/publickey into it.
1134 2012-06-25 21:55:24 <jrmithdobbs> what's not wrong with dbus is a better question
1135 2012-06-25 21:55:33 <graingert> dbus rocks stfu
1136 2012-06-25 21:55:48 <jrmithdobbs> it's great for letting everything on your box bypass auth, sure
1137 2012-06-25 21:55:57 <jrmithdobbs> I don't know how that equates to "rocks" ;p
1138 2012-06-25 21:55:58 <gmaxwell> Though I suppose we can still do that with SSL... just put the fingerprint in it and have some validation code know how to pull it from the URL.
1139 2012-06-25 21:55:58 <graingert> it makes things faster
1140 2012-06-25 21:56:27 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1141 2012-06-25 21:56:29 <gmaxwell> graingert: dbus is why fedora 18 will require reboots for upgrades because making software that can be updated in place is too hard for the desktop jockies.
1142 2012-06-25 21:56:50 <graingert> gmaxwell: kernel upgrades require reboots?
1143 2012-06-25 21:57:13 <sipa> yeah, ksplice...
1144 2012-06-25 21:57:25 <gmaxwell> graingert: sure, but thats _all_ that does, unless you ksplice as sipa mentions.
1145 2012-06-25 21:57:39 <graingert> yeah
1146 2012-06-25 21:57:53 <graingert> so what's wrong with fed18 needed reboots?
1147 2012-06-25 21:57:59 <graingert> needing*
1148 2012-06-25 21:58:12 <jrmithdobbs> ksplice is basically dead, thanks oracle
1149 2012-06-25 21:58:18 <graingert> kexec ?
1150 2012-06-25 21:58:24 <gmaxwell> ... because it goes from the kernel (which is updated infrequently and can wait until you get around to rebooting) to everything, which is updated more frequently.
1151 2012-06-25 21:58:34 <gmaxwell> kexec is a reboot, effectively.
1152 2012-06-25 21:58:43 <jrmithdobbs> graingert: kexec doesn't let you replace the running kernel, you still go all the way to init 0 and back up
1153 2012-06-25 21:58:48 <graingert> yeah
1154 2012-06-25 21:58:54 <jrmithdobbs> you've obviously never actually tried to implement this ;p
1155 2012-06-25 21:58:59 <jrmithdobbs> it's a pain in the ass
1156 2012-06-25 21:59:04 <sipa> just no BIOS calls to cycle power
1157 2012-06-25 21:59:09 <graingert> so what's wrong with needing to reboot?
1158 2012-06-25 21:59:13 <graingert> on fed18
1159 2012-06-25 21:59:17 <graingert> when every other os did it too
1160 2012-06-25 21:59:22 <graingert> does*
1161 2012-06-25 21:59:29 <sipa> is that an excuse?
1162 2012-06-25 21:59:37 <graingert> yes
1163 2012-06-25 21:59:55 <gmaxwell> In any case, OT discussion.
1164 2012-06-25 22:00:13 <gmaxwell> No we're not removing SSL from bitcoin— even if its arguable in the RPC case we'll have more need for it later.
1165 2012-06-25 22:00:39 <graingert> gmaxwell: but no dbus ever
1166 2012-06-25 22:00:52 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: did all the BN stuff get stripped? I mean, it's not even feasible really
1167 2012-06-25 22:00:58 <gmaxwell> I'm sure we'll have dbus someday too. :-/
1168 2012-06-25 22:00:58 <jrmithdobbs> without a lot of rework
1169 2012-06-25 22:01:03 <jrmithdobbs> i hope not
1170 2012-06-25 22:01:04 <graingert> YAAY
1171 2012-06-25 22:01:08 <graingert> DBUUUS
1172 2012-06-25 22:01:21 <sipa> we could use gmp for BN instead of OpenSSL
1173 2012-06-25 22:01:57 <jrmithdobbs> ya, lets swap out bsd licensed code for gpl for no functional reason, sounds fantastic :(
1174 2012-06-25 22:01:58 <gmaxwell> "YOU HAVE NEW BITCOIN. PLEASE WAIT WHILE A BUNCH OF CRAP POPS UP OVER YOUR SCREEN."  or... more likely, the dbus will be needed so that the reboot for update doesn't screw up bitcoin. :)
1175 2012-06-25 22:02:18 <graingert> gmaxwell: we already have that
1176 2012-06-25 22:02:21 <sipa> gmp is gpl... right
1177 2012-06-25 22:02:34 <gmaxwell> <3 GMP.
1178 2012-06-25 22:02:38 <graingert> !google is gmp gpl?
1179 2012-06-25 22:02:39 <gribble> GNU Multiple Precision Arithmetic Library - Wikipedia, the free ...: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Multiple_Precision_Arithmetic_Library>; FW: Is GMP safe for using on multi core processors with openmp or ...: <http://gmplib.org/list-archives/gmp-discuss/2009-July/003844.html>; InstallingGCC - GCC Wiki: <http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/InstallingGCC>
1180 2012-06-25 22:02:46 <graingert> it's GNU
1181 2012-06-25 22:02:52 <graingert> of course it's GPL
1182 2012-06-25 22:03:01 <sipa> it's LGPL
1183 2012-06-25 22:03:07 <graingert> nooooooooooooo
1184 2012-06-25 22:03:12 <gmaxwell> graingert: There wasn't any disagreement that it was gpl (though quite a few gnu libs are lgpl)
1185 2012-06-25 22:03:17 <gmaxwell> oh it's lgpl? cool.
1186 2012-06-25 22:03:18 <jrmithdobbs> still a license downgrade for no functional use, heh
1187 2012-06-25 22:03:36 <graingert> bitcoin should totally be AGPL for max trollag
1188 2012-06-25 22:03:39 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: we have lgpl things already. ::shrugs::
1189 2012-06-25 22:03:39 <graingert> e
1190 2012-06-25 22:03:59 cosurgi is now known as cosurg2
1191 2012-06-25 22:04:03 <graingert> brb reboot
1192 2012-06-25 22:04:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, i thought it was gpl, lgpl isn't that bad, but i still don't see an actual reason for openssl/BN -> gmp ;p
1193 2012-06-25 22:04:23 <graingert> because why not
1194 2012-06-25 22:04:27 <jrmithdobbs> other than if you want to remove openssl
1195 2012-06-25 22:04:32 <sipa> well openssl is big, does way too much, and is a problem on distro's that strip EC anyway
1196 2012-06-25 22:04:51 <graingert> strip bdb
1197 2012-06-25 22:04:54 <graingert> first
1198 2012-06-25 22:04:59 <sipa> willdo
1199 2012-06-25 22:05:01 <jrmithdobbs> graingert: read the mailling list
1200 2012-06-25 22:05:03 <gmaxwell> And openssl also has screwed us over protocol wise several times because it slips in unexpected behavior.
1201 2012-06-25 22:05:08 <graingert> jrmithdobbs: link
1202 2012-06-25 22:05:12 <gmaxwell> graingert: DONE. basically.
1203 2012-06-25 22:05:17 <jrmithdobbs> graingert: sf.net
1204 2012-06-25 22:05:17 <graingert> oh rly
1205 2012-06-25 22:05:22 <graingert> gmaxwell: how?
1206 2012-06-25 22:05:28 <gmaxwell> Magic.
1207 2012-06-25 22:05:45 <gmaxwell> TD: has replaced it with an in-tree copy of leveldb.
1208 2012-06-25 22:05:56 <sipa> only for the blockchain, btw
1209 2012-06-25 22:05:59 <gmaxwell> Dunno if we'll go that route, looks appealing though.
1210 2012-06-25 22:06:00 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1520 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1520>
1211 2012-06-25 22:06:09 <sipa> but the peers db is already custom in git head
1212 2012-06-25 22:06:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: I thought he was working on the wallet? (which I thought was silly because we should move to the append only file for that)
1213 2012-06-25 22:06:19 <sipa> and i have been working on replacing the wallet
1214 2012-06-25 22:06:20 slush2 has joined
1215 2012-06-25 22:06:31 <graingert> jrmithdobbs: that's a domain, now for the protocol and the pathname
1216 2012-06-25 22:06:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no just the blockchain index from what i saw
1217 2012-06-25 22:06:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: i recall TD saying leveldb for wallet would be a bad idea, and i agreed
1218 2012-06-25 22:06:58 <jrmithdobbs> graingert: sorry, not my job to subsidize your laziness
1219 2012-06-25 22:07:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, I must have misunderstood what he was saying— since I thought otherwise, and also thought it a bad idea.
1220 2012-06-25 22:07:28 <graingert> really you want to come up with a wallet serialization format
1221 2012-06-25 22:07:31 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1222 2012-06-25 22:07:39 <jrmithdobbs> yes, there's good reasons for it
1223 2012-06-25 22:08:28 <sipa> yes, append-only, cryptographically checksummed, simple key-value store in a single file
1224 2012-06-25 22:08:42 <gmaxwell> Ah, I misunderstood "(I only tested
1225 2012-06-25 22:08:43 <gmaxwell> with empty wallets)."
1226 2012-06-25 22:08:51 <gmaxwell> as meaning he was now doing wallets too. Bad assumption.
1227 2012-06-25 22:09:00 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1228 2012-06-25 22:09:20 <sipa> so it is safe to be moved around, doesn't depend on a db environment, and cannot get corrupted from normal hardware failure
1229 2012-06-25 22:09:21 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: prunable though, right so a wallet doesn't have to grow arbitrarily large over time if keeping local copy of all history isn't desirable
1230 2012-06-25 22:09:52 <jrmithdobbs> that was supposed to end with a ?
1231 2012-06-25 22:09:53 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: yeah, rewrite once everytime X% is overwritten
1232 2012-06-25 22:10:07 <jrmithdobbs> ya thought I remembered you mentioning something like that, cool
1233 2012-06-25 22:10:51 Apexseals has joined
1234 2012-06-25 22:10:56 <gmaxwell> Anyone here seen the bitcoin magazine? Is it reasonable or Bruce Wagner 2.0?
1235 2012-06-25 22:10:58 <jgarzik> sipa: block index matches same pattern, though with a larger amount of data
1236 2012-06-25 22:11:16 <jgarzik> read 100% at startup, would work with append-only, rewrite-occasionally format
1237 2012-06-25 22:11:28 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: rewrite is really excellent for smallish things .... harder to tolerate on bigger ones. :)
1238 2012-06-25 22:11:29 PK has quit ()
1239 2012-06-25 22:11:38 <jgarzik> indeed
1240 2012-06-25 22:12:04 makomk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1241 2012-06-25 22:12:16 makomk has joined
1242 2012-06-25 22:12:21 <sipa> jgarzik: for the block index, yes indeed, though it must remain consistent with the txout db, so has basically to be done through the same system providing atomic updates
1243 2012-06-25 22:12:54 <sipa> and the txout db does not fit that pattern
1244 2012-06-25 22:13:10 <sipa> most data is it gets removed relatively quickly
1245 2012-06-25 22:13:37 <sipa> (or the tx index now, with overwrites instead of deletes)
1246 2012-06-25 22:14:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: casascius posted that he received it
1247 2012-06-25 22:14:34 <TD_> gmaxwell: apparently it's very good. i didn't receive my copy yet.
1248 2012-06-25 22:14:44 <sipa> i always assumed it wasn't real, TBH :$
1249 2012-06-25 22:14:56 <TD_> gmaxwell: however other people who did were full of praise for it. their website is also quite professional. i did an interview for them
1250 2012-06-25 22:15:45 graingert has joined
1251 2012-06-25 22:16:08 <gmaxwell> Oh I wasn't asking if it was real— wondering if its something we want to link from the site. If it's full of questionable economic reasoning and political diatribes probably not.  But its sounding like its probably reasonable (.. almost shocking for something coming out of our community!).
1252 2012-06-25 22:19:06 <TD_> oh, right. i haven't read the content yet. my comments were purely about the production values
1253 2012-06-25 22:19:22 <TD_> the cover has a guy in an anonymous mask on it, not a great start. but the stuff i was asked was pretty reasonable
1254 2012-06-25 22:19:37 <TD_> i'd suggest waiting for another edition or two
1255 2012-06-25 22:19:47 <TD_> if they keep the quality up, sure, it'd be nice to link to it from there
1256 2012-06-25 22:22:14 <BlueMatt> "
1257 2012-06-25 22:22:50 yorick_ has joined
1258 2012-06-25 22:22:54 TD_ is now known as TD
1259 2012-06-25 22:23:04 <TD> what key size / encryption type does bitcoin use for its encrypted wallets?
1260 2012-06-25 22:23:15 yorick has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1261 2012-06-25 22:23:34 <BlueMatt> aes-256-cbc
1262 2012-06-25 22:24:06 <TD> thanks
1263 2012-06-25 22:24:15 <TD> jim wants to add key encryption to bitcoinj
1264 2012-06-25 22:24:31 <TD> i'm not sure if it makes sense to do that first or HD wallets, but i guess encryption of regular keys is easier, and you'd need to encrypt the root keys anyway
1265 2012-06-25 22:24:35 <BlueMatt> sha512 key derivation
1266 2012-06-25 22:25:10 <sipa> i haven't started implemented HD wallets, but i suspect to implement it entirely orthogonal to key encryption
1267 2012-06-25 22:25:29 <midnightmagic> i'm not really convinced bitcoin has a community growing up around it so much as a sort of ultra-competitive gathering of people who are fed up with the alternatives.
1268 2012-06-25 22:25:47 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: plus mixed nuts.
1269 2012-06-25 22:25:54 <midnightmagic> macadamias man.
1270 2012-06-25 22:26:04 c4pt-otc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1271 2012-06-25 22:26:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, all flavours
1272 2012-06-25 22:26:39 <nanotube> why not ctr mode?
1273 2012-06-25 22:26:43 <nanotube> BlueMatt: ^
1274 2012-06-25 22:26:48 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1275 2012-06-25 22:26:50 makomk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1276 2012-06-25 22:26:59 <sipa> nanotube: any advantage to ctr?
1277 2012-06-25 22:27:30 <sipa> i doubt for such short pieces of data, containing random data already, even ECB should be secure
1278 2012-06-25 22:27:31 <gmaxwell> nanotube: it doesn't really matter for our use, every entry has its own IV.  Also, avoiding malleability is good.
1279 2012-06-25 22:27:35 <sipa> (though i wouldn't use it)
1280 2012-06-25 22:27:41 <BlueMatt> nanotube: because the original the wallet encryption stuff I wrote was based on used aes-256-cbc and I wasnt/am not aware of any security weaknesses in cbc that apply here?
1281 2012-06-25 22:27:49 <nanotube> well, it's parallellizable, for one. :)
1282 2012-06-25 22:28:04 <gmaxwell> yea, not an issue for decrypting a tiny amount of data rarely.
1283 2012-06-25 22:28:05 <nanotube> not saying cbc is weak
1284 2012-06-25 22:28:09 <sipa> the day that decryption of wallet keys becomes an issue, we have a problem
1285 2012-06-25 22:28:18 <gmaxwell> It's only used for decrypting private keys.
1286 2012-06-25 22:29:20 <nanotube> well, maybe also for wallet size - ctr doesn't require the dummy padding block
1287 2012-06-25 22:29:30 Shaded has quit (Quit: Shaded)
1288 2012-06-25 22:29:46 <nanotube> but yes, both probably not much of an issue for the relatively small wallet files
1289 2012-06-25 22:29:55 <gmaxwell> XTS FTW.
1290 2012-06-25 22:30:09 <nanotube> though a bunch of dummy padding for each private key... maybe add up to something that could fill up a floppy drive haha
1291 2012-06-25 22:30:12 <nanotube> er floppy disk
1292 2012-06-25 22:30:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: XTS for 32-byte data :D
1293 2012-06-25 22:30:29 <gmaxwell> hah.
1294 2012-06-25 22:30:44 <BlueMatt> nanotube: if we are concerned about wallet size, bdb should be the first to go...
1295 2012-06-25 22:30:52 <sipa> nanotube: that's a good point; CTR doesn't need padding
1296 2012-06-25 22:31:15 <gmaxwell> nor does CBC when you're the multiple of the blocksize.
1297 2012-06-25 22:31:23 <gmaxwell> Except when your implementation is psycho.
1298 2012-06-25 22:31:27 <gmaxwell> doh.
1299 2012-06-25 22:31:34 bakh has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1300 2012-06-25 22:31:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: not really; it's quite correct this way
1301 2012-06-25 22:31:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: as it cannot know the data size is fixed
1302 2012-06-25 22:32:44 <sipa> meh, if we update the wallet encryption, i guess we'll switch to scrypt derivation as well at the same time
1303 2012-06-25 22:33:02 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression we could do unpadded with the current implementation? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/950
1304 2012-06-25 22:33:30 <sipa> yeah, we could
1305 2012-06-25 22:33:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: perhaps, iirc gcrypt has a setting on the cipher instance to set the padding mode (there are several kinds, including none)
1306 2012-06-25 22:33:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: so does OpenSSL
1307 2012-06-25 22:34:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: with some compatibility tricks
1308 2012-06-25 22:34:08 makomk has joined
1309 2012-06-25 22:34:55 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1310 2012-06-25 22:34:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: ofc
1311 2012-06-25 22:34:58 <gmaxwell> I'd almost like to get the AES out, just to be back to there being no actual crypto in bitcoin, though that didn't make sense when encrypting a lot of different things with the same key.
1312 2012-06-25 22:35:42 <nanotube> well, as long as there's talk of changing the encryption, just go with ctr. parallelizable, no special tricks to do unpadded, and it has better theoretical error bounds for number of messages you can encrypt with the same key. >_> not that a wallet would ever reach anywhere near. :)
1313 2012-06-25 22:36:12 <TD> sipa: yeah i was thinking about scrypt. jim wants it to be openssl compatible, for some reason. convenience i guess.
1314 2012-06-25 22:38:14 <sipa> nanotube: we already have IVs based on the pubkey
1315 2012-06-25 22:38:31 <sipa> nanotube: which do not ever repeat (well, not because address collisions are a problem)
1316 2012-06-25 22:38:39 <sipa> s/because/before/
1317 2012-06-25 22:39:03 <gmaxwell> nanotube: it basically makes the repeating IV reduce to the address collision question. Always good to reduce on problem to another you can't get rid of. :)
1318 2012-06-25 22:39:40 <gmaxwell> TD: our general direction will probably be scrypt. Hasn't been much urgency behind it because visible wallet crackers haven't shown up yet.
1319 2012-06-25 22:40:25 <TD> looks like there's a nice java library for scrypt. even has an optimized ARM JNI binary available for use
1320 2012-06-25 22:41:25 <nanotube> yea guess it's all pretty irrelevant for our purposes.
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1322 2012-06-25 22:43:52 <sipa> website isn't updated with 0.6.3 yet?
1323 2012-06-25 22:44:18 <gmaxwell> TD: oh thats good to hear.
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1333 2012-06-25 23:02:13 <Eliel> gmaxwell: bitcoin magazine is quite reasonable in my opinion. Both positive and negative aspects of Bitcoin are brought to light. Overall felt like quite balanced point of view to me.
1334 2012-06-25 23:02:30 <gmaxwell> Thats fantastic news.
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1336 2012-06-25 23:03:47 <Eliel> The first issue is a pretty good introduction to Bitcoin as a whole.
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1341 2012-06-25 23:17:46 <nanotube> Eliel: there are negative aspects of bitcoin? that's news to me! :) >_>
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1343 2012-06-25 23:20:35 <gmaxwell> False. The bitcoin protocol can not express negative values.
1344 2012-06-25 23:21:25 <nanotube> that's right, you tell'em gmaxwell :)
1345 2012-06-25 23:22:00 <sipa> what? one cannot express debt in bitcoin?
1346 2012-06-25 23:22:04 <sipa> this is a serious flaw!
1347 2012-06-25 23:22:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: this makes it debt crisis immune!
1348 2012-06-25 23:22:55 <MysteryBanshee> people can still lend/borrow bitcoins
1349 2012-06-25 23:23:04 <sipa> MysteryBanshee: we weren't very serious :)
1350 2012-06-25 23:23:08 <MysteryBanshee> in theory issue notes of credit backed by bitcoin
1351 2012-06-25 23:23:12 <MysteryBanshee> hehe
1352 2012-06-25 23:23:12 <MysteryBanshee> :)
1353 2012-06-25 23:29:18 <UukGoblin> gmaxwell, it could, pre 0.3.10 ;-)
1354 2012-06-25 23:30:25 <UukGoblin> heh, one negative aspect of bitcoin might be that we'll all die a spectacular heath death
1355 2012-06-25 23:30:25 <UukGoblin> but that's gonna happen anyway
1356 2012-06-25 23:31:36 <sipa> heath>
1357 2012-06-25 23:31:36 <sipa> ?
1358 2012-06-25 23:31:56 <UukGoblin> uhm heat
1359 2012-06-25 23:31:56 <UukGoblin> heat. that's what I meant. Yeah, it looked wrong when I first spelled it.
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1367 2012-06-25 23:44:12 <sipa> hmm, english has very low entropy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6iiujLSXLc
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1372 2012-06-25 23:47:16 <UukGoblin> it'll die a heat death anyway.
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1374 2012-06-25 23:47:32 <UukGoblin> well, unless the world implodes
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