1 2012-07-02 00:01:18 <doublec> do bitcoinj nodes not use addresses received from peers?
   2 2012-07-02 00:01:30 <gmaxwell> doublec: that appears to be what TD just said!
   3 2012-07-02 00:01:41 Apexseals has joined
   4 2012-07-02 00:01:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I don't know what kind of long term stats sipa keeps. His seeds.txt would be fine for that if snapshotted.
   5 2012-07-02 00:02:20 <gmaxwell> There are some things like http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/ but the numbers are bogus for unclear reasons.
   6 2012-07-02 00:05:34 <jgarzik> 36 / 84 connections at my public node (listed in DNS seed) are bitcoinj
   7 2012-07-02 00:06:46 <doublec> I didn't think they'd be so many bitcoinj nodes around yet
   8 2012-07-02 00:07:24 <gmaxwell> 0/36 on the public node I restarted a few hours ago.
   9 2012-07-02 00:07:41 <jgarzik> 758 getheaders requests logged (each is logged by default), out of 386998-line debug.log
  10 2012-07-02 00:07:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: not listed at any DNS seed, I presume?
  11 2012-07-02 00:08:19 <D34TH> so  im trying to setup a dns seed on my server, and i have no clue what im doing
  12 2012-07-02 00:08:20 <D34TH> lol
  13 2012-07-02 00:08:44 Zarutian has joined
  14 2012-07-02 00:08:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sipa's and luke's returned it previously... though, point: they might not be now because it had a 14 hour outage yesturday.
  15 2012-07-02 00:09:24 Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  16 2012-07-02 00:10:50 CluckCreek has joined
  17 2012-07-02 00:11:06 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  18 2012-07-02 00:11:49 <jgarzik> receive version message: version 31800, blocks=187105, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=127.0.0.1:8333, peer=32.164.147.108:33281
  19 2012-07-02 00:12:07 <jgarzik> now that I know what to look for, the BitcoinJ connections are easy to spot
  20 2012-07-02 00:13:13 <sipa> gmaxwell, jrmithdobbs: I don't think you can do any resolving via SOCKS, and saying that would be wrong. Bitcoin just connects to the dnsseed name, requests addr's, and exits
  21 2012-07-02 00:14:10 <jgarzik> any objections to BlueMatt's fix?  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1545
  22 2012-07-02 00:14:16 <jgarzik> I'm all for decreasing the send buffer
  23 2012-07-02 00:14:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: interestingly, the stats at rowit show a similar pattern that my dnsseed software has always shown...when its first initialized, the number of listening nodes grows to some number, then starts decreasing very similarly to the pattern at rowit
  24 2012-07-02 00:14:28 <BlueMatt> as for why...beats me
  25 2012-07-02 00:14:45 t4ls0 has joined
  26 2012-07-02 00:14:49 <BlueMatt> (and it always goes back up when reinitialized)
  27 2012-07-02 00:15:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: are you using IRC?
  28 2012-07-02 00:15:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no
  29 2012-07-02 00:15:13 Turingi has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  30 2012-07-02 00:15:57 theodore has joined
  31 2012-07-02 00:16:04 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  32 2012-07-02 00:16:10 <gmaxwell> There is a fun behavior with IRC that looks kind of like that— ... the IRC servers doesn't return all nodes in /who just the first N (based on its own wacked internal ordering). So stable nodes actually don't get well selected by IRC, because they're not constantly rejoining and unless they're one of the lucky few in /who, no one will hear of them.
  33 2012-07-02 00:16:12 <sipa> jgarzik: i don't understand why being maxed out often is reason for decreasing the buffer size further
  34 2012-07-02 00:16:14 <BlueMatt> though...tbh Ive always assumed I missed something in the software and never really bothered to think too hard about it.  It always found /some/ nodes, so...
  35 2012-07-02 00:16:35 <sipa> though i don't object to decreasing the buffer size
  36 2012-07-02 00:16:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: the reason is a) you no longer need a send buffer of any significant size to get performance, and b) if it didnt, 0.7 would use more memory per connection to "good" nodes
  37 2012-07-02 00:17:01 jurov is now known as jurov|away
  38 2012-07-02 00:17:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: those are two very good reasons, and why i don't object
  39 2012-07-02 00:17:21 <sipa> but being maxed out isn't
  40 2012-07-02 00:17:44 <BlueMatt> sorry, by maxed I meant b)
  41 2012-07-02 00:17:50 <BlueMatt> just didnt make that clear I guess
  42 2012-07-02 00:18:28 <D34TH> does someone have a readme on how to setup dnsseed?
  43 2012-07-02 00:18:28 <BlueMatt> (because good nodes now max the send buffer downloading blocks very easily and constantly, instead of requesting blocks up to the send buffer size, then letting that go down before requesting more)
  44 2012-07-02 00:18:54 <sipa> D34TH: a dns seed server?
  45 2012-07-02 00:19:04 <D34TH> i got it to put ip addresses into a db.DOMAIN
  46 2012-07-02 00:19:07 <D34TH> yep
  47 2012-07-02 00:19:25 <sipa> what else do you want it to do?
  48 2012-07-02 00:19:35 <D34TH> i just dont know how to make the domain update to have multiple a records
  49 2012-07-02 00:19:56 <sipa> i wrote a dns server for seeding
  50 2012-07-02 00:20:12 <sipa> that returns random results on each query
  51 2012-07-02 00:20:16 <BlueMatt> sipa: btw, your dns seed doesnt see any kind of similar pattern, does it?
  52 2012-07-02 00:20:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: the rules are too complex to observe
  53 2012-07-02 00:20:58 <doublec> how does bitcoin find dns seed servers? does it just use the hardcoded ones?
  54 2012-07-02 00:20:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: rules? I just mean total listening nodes count decreasing over time?
  55 2012-07-02 00:21:03 <BlueMatt> doublec: yes
  56 2012-07-02 00:21:09 <D34TH> imo, trying to do one for litecoin but im stabbing blindly
  57 2012-07-02 00:21:50 <sipa> there was some decrease earlier, but that was likely due to rules like "when too many failures occurred in time X, kick the node off the list"
  58 2012-07-02 00:22:25 <sipa> now i changed those rules, and there is no significant decrease anymore
  59 2012-07-02 00:23:13 <BlueMatt> mmm, yea, guessed the search rules is what was causing it (which is why I never paid much attention)...guess it must've been
  60 2012-07-02 00:24:33 <sipa> i've thinking about a better tracking mechanism that doesn't require such arbitrary rules to keep it in check, but haven't implemented it yet
  61 2012-07-02 00:24:43 <sipa> been
  62 2012-07-02 00:26:05 Motest003 has joined
  63 2012-07-02 00:26:05 Cory has quit (Read error: No route to host)
  64 2012-07-02 00:26:07 <BlueMatt> meh...not sure its really that worth it...as long as it can pick a node back up and retry it if it keeps seeing it announced after a while...
  65 2012-07-02 00:26:21 <BlueMatt> and always has a decent size pool around...
  66 2012-07-02 00:27:17 da2ce7 has joined
  67 2012-07-02 00:28:13 <doublec> on one of my vps' I get an internal compiler error compiling bitcoinrpc.cpp using gcc 4.4.3
  68 2012-07-02 00:28:21 <doublec> with bitcoin git head
  69 2012-07-02 00:28:24 <sipa> OOM?
  70 2012-07-02 00:28:51 <doublec> oh it is, weird. It used to build fine.
  71 2012-07-02 00:29:17 <BlueMatt> seems its time for more rpc "modules" files
  72 2012-07-02 00:29:34 <sipa> yes, definitely
  73 2012-07-02 00:30:16 <doublec> yeah it's a bit of a catchall file. Maybe an mining rpc file, information rpc file, etc
  74 2012-07-02 00:30:46 <gmaxwell> Go go G++.
  75 2012-07-02 00:31:08 <gmaxwell> Usually when this kind of problem shows up trimming out some unneeded headers can help.
  76 2012-07-02 00:31:31 <BlueMatt> all the new boost headers probably did it here...
  77 2012-07-02 00:42:41 <jgarzik> sipa: I agree that send buffer being maxed out is not a reason to reduce the send buffer.  I just want the fix, and think reducing memory usage on public nodes (</bias>) is useful
  78 2012-07-02 00:43:49 <sipa> jgarzik: i already decreased the send buffer size on my own public node
  79 2012-07-02 00:44:12 <sipa> so ACK
  80 2012-07-02 00:44:36 * BlueMatt needs to put his reasoning on pull requests clearer
  81 2012-07-02 00:44:48 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  82 2012-07-02 00:45:23 <jgarzik> bitcoinrpc takes tons of memory (and CPU and wall clock time) to build.  needs further splitting.
  83 2012-07-02 00:46:13 dvide has quit ()
  84 2012-07-02 00:46:33 Cory has joined
  85 2012-07-02 00:51:24 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened pull request 1546 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1546>
  86 2012-07-02 00:55:08 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, define tons
  87 2012-07-02 00:56:06 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: several hundred MB
  88 2012-07-02 00:56:30 <jgarzik> and... 40 wall-clock seconds to build?
  89 2012-07-02 00:57:08 <phantomcircuit> the cpu time is impressive
  90 2012-07-02 00:57:18 <phantomcircuit> several hundred mb is annoying but not ludicrous
  91 2012-07-02 00:57:32 * phantomcircuit builds chromium
  92 2012-07-02 00:57:32 <sipa> wall clock time != cpu time
  93 2012-07-02 00:57:51 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  94 2012-07-02 00:57:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's usually the same if you're compiling and dont hit swap
  95 2012-07-02 00:58:36 <sipa> i presume he's talking about building on a VPS
  96 2012-07-02 00:58:54 <phantomcircuit> oh yeah that would do
  97 2012-07-02 00:59:01 <sipa> otherwise RAM would not be an issue, and wall clock building time would be a lot lower
  98 2012-07-02 00:59:43 <gmaxwell> several hundred mb is a little bit insane for a 30kloc little program, but thats boost for you.
  99 2012-07-02 01:00:33 <sipa> boost tries to emulate a lot of things in the source language that should be part of the compiler/language
 100 2012-07-02 01:01:41 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: LOL
 101 2012-07-02 01:01:47 <Diablo-D3> I was reading your sentence
 102 2012-07-02 01:01:59 <Diablo-D3> "huh, I wonder if hes using boost" "...but thats boost for you."
 103 2012-07-02 01:02:09 <Diablo-D3> lololol
 104 2012-07-02 01:02:11 <Diablo-D3> its doomed
 105 2012-07-02 01:02:15 <jgarzik> it's not just boost
 106 2012-07-02 01:02:20 <jgarzik> json-spirit is fscking _huge_
 107 2012-07-02 01:02:45 <jgarzik> 40MB compiled, in another project I'm hacking on, which uses bitcoin's json-spirit unmodified
 108 2012-07-02 01:02:53 <freewil> why does it check the filesystem?
 109 2012-07-02 01:03:08 <jgarzik> (compiled == instantiating the typical templates)
 110 2012-07-02 01:03:55 <jgarzik> 	Elapsed (wall clock) time (h:mm:ss or m:ss): 0:27.93
 111 2012-07-02 01:03:55 <jgarzik> 	Maximum resident set size (kbytes): 814096
 112 2012-07-02 01:04:09 <gmaxwell> freewil: 'fscking' is a more polite way of saying 'fucking' in this context.
 113 2012-07-02 01:04:17 <freewil> ohhhhhhh
 114 2012-07-02 01:05:08 <freewil> well fuck, why not just use the proper word
 115 2012-07-02 01:05:10 <gmaxwell> :)
 116 2012-07-02 01:05:33 <jgarzik> in contrast, compiling newly minted rpcnet (which does include json):
 117 2012-07-02 01:05:34 <jgarzik> 	Elapsed (wall clock) time (h:mm:ss or m:ss): 0:03.95
 118 2012-07-02 01:05:36 <freewil> lol
 119 2012-07-02 01:05:39 <jgarzik> 	Maximum resident set size (kbytes): 310488
 120 2012-07-02 01:05:44 <sipa> I am not native english, but i doubt "fucking huge" is very proper
 121 2012-07-02 01:06:14 <freewil> thats what we call american informal
 122 2012-07-02 01:06:50 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 123 2012-07-02 01:06:55 <freewil> are you french sipa?
 124 2012-07-02 01:06:59 <sipa> no
 125 2012-07-02 01:07:09 <sipa> belgian
 126 2012-07-02 01:07:16 <freewil> ah
 127 2012-07-02 01:07:16 <jgarzik> CPU time, bitcoinrpc: 26.97/0.69 seconds, rpcnet: 3.60/0.28 seconds  (user/system)
 128 2012-07-02 01:07:25 <jgarzik> something in bitcoinrpc really spins the compiler
 129 2012-07-02 01:07:27 <BlueMatt> freewil: I prefer to call it internet informal
 130 2012-07-02 01:08:13 <sipa> jgarzik: all accesses to internal structures instanciate a lot of main or serialize code
 131 2012-07-02 01:08:20 <freewil> i dont know if its specific to the internet or america
 132 2012-07-02 01:08:21 <sipa> i suppose
 133 2012-07-02 01:08:35 <jgarzik> or json-spirit
 134 2012-07-02 01:08:40 <freewil> i would say that speaking to my informal friends
 135 2012-07-02 01:09:15 <sipa> jgarzik: right
 136 2012-07-02 01:09:49 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, internet american, same thing
 137 2012-07-02 01:10:27 <BlueMatt> ...
 138 2012-07-02 01:11:20 <jgarzik> json-spirit is 他妈的 huge
 139 2012-07-02 01:11:28 <BlueMatt> and ugly as hell
 140 2012-07-02 01:11:39 <phantomcircuit> mostly a joke but really most code is in american english
 141 2012-07-02 01:11:45 <phantomcircuit> drives amir slightly mad
 142 2012-07-02 01:11:58 <BlueMatt> btw, there have been several new versions since json-spirit was checked into bitcoin git, and we have like 2 lines of diff
 143 2012-07-02 01:12:10 <BlueMatt> (which is the whole reason we dont use the released version...)
 144 2012-07-02 01:12:18 <freewil> ive always kind of wondered about writing code in a symbol-based language like mandarin
 145 2012-07-02 01:12:19 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: do the new versions make it smaller?  :)
 146 2012-07-02 01:12:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: havent checked, but the first rule of software says nope
 147 2012-07-02 01:12:37 <sipa> what diff do we need?
 148 2012-07-02 01:13:19 <jine> freewil: PHP dropped their plans for UTF-8 support a few months (or a year?) ago :)
 149 2012-07-02 01:13:22 <BlueMatt> dont recall exactly, something minor to do with the amount of precision in...something
 150 2012-07-02 01:14:00 <freewil> jine, really, for php6?
 151 2012-07-02 01:14:24 <jine> freewil: Yeah
 152 2012-07-02 01:14:51 <jine> As in "write code in UTF-8" (variables, functions and whatnot) - not the actual utf-8 character support....
 153 2012-07-02 01:14:56 theodore has quit (Quit: theodore)
 154 2012-07-02 01:15:16 <jine> It was planned for PHP6 afaik (or actually 5.6 or something at the begining), but they decided to drop it...
 155 2012-07-02 01:16:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: see: http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/20027/JSON-Spirit-A-C-JSON-Parser-Generator-Implemented?fid=448567&tid=3909548 (scroll to bottom for comments))
 156 2012-07-02 01:16:59 <BlueMatt> I never bothered to follow up though it probably easily could be
 157 2012-07-02 01:17:54 <jine> http://easycaptures.com/fs/uploaded/583/1137147277.jpg - http://www.slideshare.net/andreizm/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-happened-to-unicode-and-php-6 Slide #52 :)
 158 2012-07-02 01:20:16 <jgarzik> it sure seems like json-spirit's API could be done without templates
 159 2012-07-02 01:20:44 <jgarzik> you would have to enumerate some types, but json-spirit winds up doing a ton of that anyway
 160 2012-07-02 01:20:48 <BlueMatt> it sure seems like there should be better json libs out there...
 161 2012-07-02 01:21:14 <sipa> json-spirit can use any container to store arrays, for example
 162 2012-07-02 01:21:45 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: grarpamp opened issue 1547 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1547>
 163 2012-07-02 01:21:50 <sipa> i'm sure that has a high cost for compilation (though not necessarily for resulting code size)
 164 2012-07-02 01:23:10 theodore has joined
 165 2012-07-02 01:24:27 <jgarzik> bitcoinrpc.o is 10-20x larger than other object files, here.  too lazy to measure how that sorts out in the final link.
 166 2012-07-02 01:24:49 <jgarzik> (ie a lot is debug info)
 167 2012-07-02 01:25:25 <sipa> jgarzik: ever tried compiling with -flto ?
 168 2012-07-02 01:25:38 <sipa> it reduces code size a lot
 169 2012-07-02 01:25:54 <sipa> needs a recent gcc though
 170 2012-07-02 01:26:02 <jgarzik> i should.  RH contributed to that work
 171 2012-07-02 01:31:45 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik 38325117 Jul  1 21:27 bitcoind.head
 172 2012-07-02 01:31:45 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik  2159512 Jul  1 21:27 bitcoind.head.stripped
 173 2012-07-02 01:31:45 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik 14557238 Jul  1 21:25 bitcoind.lto
 174 2012-07-02 01:31:45 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik  1729168 Jul  1 21:25 bitcoind.lto.stripped
 175 2012-07-02 01:39:33 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 176 2012-07-02 01:57:17 t4ls0 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 177 2012-07-02 02:00:31 <doublec> jgarzik: libjansson is a pretty well used json library - didn't cpuminer use it?
 178 2012-07-02 02:00:51 <doublec> or was it pushpool
 179 2012-07-02 02:01:18 <jgarzik> doublec: both cpuminer and pushpool used it
 180 2012-07-02 02:01:24 <jgarzik> doublec: however, it has problems with large integers
 181 2012-07-02 02:02:28 <doublec> ah right, it parses everything as double's I sasume
 182 2012-07-02 02:02:34 <doublec> s/sasume/assume/
 183 2012-07-02 02:08:35 MC1984 has joined
 184 2012-07-02 02:09:26 <jgarzik> doublec: no, it fails to make provisions for 64-bit integers
 185 2012-07-02 02:11:53 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: what gen cpus was that 24x box you used?
 186 2012-07-02 02:12:33 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: cause i'm thinking about doing some hardware 'testing' with a 4x6x core2 era box i need to diagnose some issues with later this week ;p
 187 2012-07-02 02:13:35 one_zero has joined
 188 2012-07-02 02:14:43 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: 32 core actually. older opteron 83xx (quad core) cpus.
 189 2012-07-02 02:15:28 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh so it'd probably be faster on the 24x x7350s
 190 2012-07-02 02:15:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: for similar difficulty
 191 2012-07-02 02:15:48 <gmaxwell> probably.
 192 2012-07-02 02:16:08 <BlueMatt> if you're compiling: consider compiling on multiple pcs...its really not bad if you're using gnu make-based stuff
 193 2012-07-02 02:16:16 <jrmithdobbs> i'm just gonna start it up on everything in my house and see if anything gets lucky, at least, i didn't look at the code, it starts fairly randomly right wont be the same progression on each box?
 194 2012-07-02 02:16:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: nah, brute forcing rsa keys for vanity .onion, lol
 195 2012-07-02 02:16:33 <BlueMatt> (took me like 10-20 minutes to set up (and that was all installing packages and making the system's compiler setups identical))
 196 2012-07-02 02:16:42 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i do use distcc ;p
 197 2012-07-02 02:16:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: parallel compiling doesn't help bitcoin.. not when it takes minutes on a single file! :)
 198 2012-07-02 02:17:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: minutes? Ive never seen a file take longer than like 10 seconds...
 199 2012-07-02 02:17:19 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya seriously, what happened to the build times all of a sudden, they've gotten BAD
 200 2012-07-02 02:17:47 <jrmithdobbs> i have on my i686-running p4 2 way box
 201 2012-07-02 02:18:09 <jrmithdobbs> like, it takes almost as long to build bitcoin as libreadline, and that's not a good thing
 202 2012-07-02 02:18:17 <gmaxwell> "I have multiple symlink links one for the wallet.dat, which is encrypted and inside of a true crypt container. I have a symlink for the rest of the files which are on a separate partition that is unencrypted so it isn't too bad on I/O."
 203 2012-07-02 02:18:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: distributed compiling helps for bitcoin quite a bit...as long as you have changed more than one file...
 204 2012-07-02 02:18:21 <gmaxwell> sigh
 205 2012-07-02 02:18:25 <jrmithdobbs> readline spends most of it's time doing m4/autotools crap ;p
 206 2012-07-02 02:19:01 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: but...yea bitcoin's compile times suck
 207 2012-07-02 02:19:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it takes a long time on my laptop, presumably because its pushing me into swap.
 208 2012-07-02 02:20:02 <BlueMatt> ahh...yea having no swap and plenty of memory always helps
 209 2012-07-02 02:20:16 <BlueMatt> yea, yea living on the edge, no swap...meh
 210 2012-07-02 02:20:34 <BlueMatt> better cache...meh
 211 2012-07-02 02:21:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: upgrade your laptop?
 212 2012-07-02 02:24:40 <gmaxwell> meh. I rarely run anything but terminals on it. And you can't currently get good displays on anything.  In any case, bitcoin is a rather small program, there is no reason it should be so burdensom to compile.
 213 2012-07-02 02:24:53 <BlueMatt> yep
 214 2012-07-02 02:32:24 Fosten has joined
 215 2012-07-02 02:42:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: new macbook ... in two years when the screen isn't making it a loss (most likely) ha
 216 2012-07-02 02:43:36 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I figure that N months after it ships lenovo will have something with the same panel.
 217 2012-07-02 02:45:12 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 218 2012-07-02 02:46:09 <galambo> is there some innovation in display technology im not aware of?
 219 2012-07-02 02:46:25 <gmaxwell> galambo: >200 ppi 15" laptop display.
 220 2012-07-02 02:47:02 <galambo> no comment
 221 2012-07-02 02:50:15 osmosis has joined
 222 2012-07-02 02:53:00 membersonlyguy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 223 2012-07-02 02:54:24 Fosten has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 224 2012-07-02 02:58:19 <Ferroh> Okay, so,
 225 2012-07-02 02:58:32 <Ferroh> I need you guys to check your browser cache to see if you have this page:
 226 2012-07-02 02:58:42 <Ferroh> http://people.scs.carleton.ca/~clark/commitcoin/
 227 2012-07-02 02:58:45 <Ferroh> dont visit that link.
 228 2012-07-02 02:58:54 <Ferroh> the page is no longer available
 229 2012-07-02 02:58:58 <Ferroh> and I want to read the article
 230 2012-07-02 02:59:01 <Ferroh> can anyone help me out?
 231 2012-07-02 02:59:09 <galambo> why
 232 2012-07-02 02:59:21 <Ferroh> If you have firefox then it is easy to view your cache of the page, if you've visited it:
 233 2012-07-02 02:59:24 <Ferroh> http://www.mydigitallife.info/display-and-view-firefox-cache-files-without-browser-cache-viewer/
 234 2012-07-02 02:59:41 <Ferroh> why? because it explains a practical way to use his "commitcoin" idea
 235 2012-07-02 02:59:47 <Ferroh> with linux commands
 236 2012-07-02 02:59:48 <Ferroh> right now
 237 2012-07-02 02:59:54 <copumpkin> http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/677.pdf doesn't work?
 238 2012-07-02 03:00:04 <Ferroh> That is the abstract.
 239 2012-07-02 03:00:21 <Ferroh> the link I gave has explicit instructions for how to sign a document into the blockchain
 240 2012-07-02 03:00:29 <galambo> go to the library of your local university
 241 2012-07-02 03:00:39 <galambo> and ask about "interlibrary loan"
 242 2012-07-02 03:00:49 <galambo> but as with most academic papers
 243 2012-07-02 03:00:55 <galambo> expect to be greatly disappointed
 244 2012-07-02 03:00:59 <Ferroh> galambo, I am not looking for an academic paper.
 245 2012-07-02 03:01:04 <Ferroh> copumpkin just linked the paper
 246 2012-07-02 03:01:13 <Ferroh> I want the article at the link I gave specifically
 247 2012-07-02 03:01:14 <copumpkin> you want the actual implementation?
 248 2012-07-02 03:01:17 <Ferroh> which is NOT an academic paper
 249 2012-07-02 03:01:18 <copumpkin> oh
 250 2012-07-02 03:01:24 <doublec> what was at the link?
 251 2012-07-02 03:01:25 <Ferroh> yes, it was available there for months
 252 2012-07-02 03:01:26 <copumpkin> have you tried just emailing the author?
 253 2012-07-02 03:01:30 <Ferroh> copumpkin, yes.
 254 2012-07-02 03:01:36 <doublec> there's a commitcoin repository and source on github
 255 2012-07-02 03:01:37 <Ferroh> I havent heard back yet
 256 2012-07-02 03:01:41 <doublec> is it the same thing?
 257 2012-07-02 03:01:55 <Ferroh> checking
 258 2012-07-02 03:02:09 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: the commitcoin signed stuff in the blockchain is poorly done and rather paracitic.
 259 2012-07-02 03:02:21 <gmaxwell> parasitic*
 260 2012-07-02 03:02:28 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, oh?
 261 2012-07-02 03:02:45 <gmaxwell> This thing is a better design: https://github.com/goblin/chronobit
 262 2012-07-02 03:02:50 <Ferroh> doublec, It appears to be the same concept yet.
 263 2012-07-02 03:02:54 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, ah excellent, thankyou
 264 2012-07-02 03:03:05 <gmaxwell> Because it has O(1) scaling.. you can commit infinite data in the blockchain without increasing its size.
 265 2012-07-02 03:03:20 <gmaxwell> It also potentially gives you better time resolution for your commitments.
 266 2012-07-02 03:03:37 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, Oh, I thought the idea was just to store essentially a hash of your document in the chain (which would be O(1))
 267 2012-07-02 03:03:50 <Ferroh> I obviously haven't explored this idea in detail though.
 268 2012-07-02 03:03:51 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: Thats O(N) not O(1)
 269 2012-07-02 03:04:12 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, the memory footprint in the chain would be O(1)... no?
 270 2012-07-02 03:04:18 <gmaxwell> Meaning the more people use it the more burden it places on bitcoin which is unrelated to validating and securing the currency.
 271 2012-07-02 03:04:33 <Ferroh> O(1) with respect to the size of the document, I mean.
 272 2012-07-02 03:04:44 <Ferroh> Wait,
 273 2012-07-02 03:05:05 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: its one hash per committed document. Whereas UukGoblin's system is O(1) worst case per block for any number of documents.
 274 2012-07-02 03:05:16 <Ferroh> Oh okay, I see.
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 320 2012-07-02 07:16:57 * MysteryBanshee announces his new channel #btc-lectures where you can get lectures on bitcoin and cryptocurrency technology for only 1 BTC per lecture
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 348 2012-07-02 09:40:31 <jrmithdobbs> wow, got two usable onion addresses with this pattern after like ~7 hours (so, like 80-90ish cpu hours) and didn't even have to come up with an excuse to use something from work instead of my own boxes, ha
 349 2012-07-02 09:40:45 <jrmithdobbs> pattern: '^deez.*btc$'
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 364 2012-07-02 10:21:40 <Cubox> Hi :)
 365 2012-07-02 10:23:33 <Cubox> I'm trying to fork bitcoin (it's litecoin, but the system is the same), and I have done some commits (https://github.com/Cubox-/BBQCoin) but, I saw that I need the genesis block, which is the first one. The problem is, I can't run bbqcoind or BBQCoin.app (the GUI) so i can't mine and generate it :( How can forks do for solve this problem ?
 366 2012-07-02 10:24:12 <sipa> small tip: the genesis block is never actually verified in the source code
 367 2012-07-02 10:24:22 <Cubox> hmm
 368 2012-07-02 10:24:32 <Cubox> so, just remove the assets ?
 369 2012-07-02 10:24:39 <sipa> assets?
 370 2012-07-02 10:24:43 <Cubox> asserts*
 371 2012-07-02 10:24:54 <Cubox> assert(block.GetHash() == hashGenesisBlock);
 372 2012-07-02 10:25:05 <Cubox> this is here the code fail.
 373 2012-07-02 10:25:06 <sipa> that, or don't touch the genesis block in the first place
 374 2012-07-02 10:25:16 <Cubox> hmm, yes...
 375 2012-07-02 10:25:22 <Cubox> sipa: thanks
 376 2012-07-02 10:25:49 <Cubox> So, what is this code for if the genesis block is not verified ?
 377 2012-07-02 10:26:30 <sipa> by verified i mean it is not processed by the normal block-connection logic that checks transactions
 378 2012-07-02 10:26:42 <Cubox> okey
 379 2012-07-02 10:26:44 <sipa> there is an assert that the created genesis block is correct
 380 2012-07-02 10:29:51 <sipa> and what great innovations will bbqcoin bring?
 381 2012-07-02 10:31:04 <Cubox> sipa: nothing
 382 2012-07-02 10:31:11 <Cubox> It's just a fork for fun
 383 2012-07-02 10:31:29 <sipa> ok
 384 2012-07-02 10:32:02 <Cubox> sipa: gui starts, but when i ask to mine, it's don't mine :(
 385 2012-07-02 10:32:16 <Cubox> 0khash/s and no output log (just that mining started)
 386 2012-07-02 10:32:21 <khalahan> hi
 387 2012-07-02 10:32:41 <khalahan> sipa, do you know if bitcoin 0.3.x still receive security fixes ?
 388 2012-07-02 10:32:51 <sipa> khalahan: it doesn't
 389 2012-07-02 10:33:25 <sipa> luke-jr maintains branches with backported fixes for 0.4.x and 0.5.x
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 391 2012-07-02 10:34:36 <epscy> Cubox: i assume you need two clients running in order to mine
 392 2012-07-02 10:34:38 <khalahan> ok, thanks... I guess I need to find someone to help porting namecoin to 0.6 :p
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 395 2012-07-02 10:35:30 <Cubox> epscy: okey
 396 2012-07-02 10:42:41 <Cubox> hmm
 397 2012-07-02 10:43:01 <Cubox> I have this PUBKEY_ADDRESS = 10 but it seems that addresses starts by 5 on my code. Did i miss something ?
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 409 2012-07-02 11:46:23 <TD> anyone here familiar with the mingw cross compile?
 410 2012-07-02 11:48:57 <sipa> TD: i only execute gitian scripts, but that works
 411 2012-07-02 11:49:12 <TD> yeah, i was just starting to conclude that using gitian seems to be the way to go
 412 2012-07-02 11:49:46 <TD> there appear to be no docs on how all this works
 413 2012-07-02 11:49:51 <TD> except release-process.txt
 414 2012-07-02 11:50:07 <sipa> after much trial and error i wrote a bash script that does everything :)
 415 2012-07-02 11:50:23 <sipa> checkout / build / package / sign
 416 2012-07-02 11:51:17 <TD> oh wow. it wants to use a qemu vm
 417 2012-07-02 11:51:20 <TD> darn
 418 2012-07-02 11:51:32 <TD> i just want to fix the makefiles for leveldb :)
 419 2012-07-02 11:51:59 <sipa> poke BlueMatt
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 423 2012-07-02 12:07:11 <TD> sipa: git question. how can i reset the branch i'm on to be a copy of a remote branch? i thought i had this figured out but nothing i do works
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 425 2012-07-02 12:07:45 <TD> i want something like "git reset --hard mikehearn/leveldb" to get my local copy on a different machine back to the code i just uploaded, but no cigar
 426 2012-07-02 12:08:34 <sipa> that should do it
 427 2012-07-02 12:08:48 <sipa> unless you're not on a branch now
 428 2012-07-02 12:09:04 <TD> fatal: ambiguous argument 'mikehearn/leveldb': unknown revision or path not in the working tree.
 429 2012-07-02 12:09:26 <TD> i'm not sure how to specify the remote branch, i guess
 430 2012-07-02 12:09:34 <TD> maybe i want FETCH_HEAD?
 431 2012-07-02 12:09:41 <sipa> you need to setup a remote first
 432 2012-07-02 12:09:45 <TD> i have one
 433 2012-07-02 12:09:50 <TD> i have pushed from this branch before
 434 2012-07-02 12:10:11 <sipa> to that branch, you mean?
 435 2012-07-02 12:10:33 <TD> yes
 436 2012-07-02 12:10:35 <TD> no
 437 2012-07-02 12:10:39 <TD> i mean from this local branch to the remote branch
 438 2012-07-02 12:10:44 <sipa> try fetching it again? git fetch mikehearn
 439 2012-07-02 12:10:49 <TD> i've been working on the same (remote) branch from two machines
 440 2012-07-02 12:11:03 <TD> oh, hm
 441 2012-07-02 12:11:04 <TD> that works
 442 2012-07-02 12:11:16 <TD> odd. i wonder why. i guess i pushed to github but that isn't the same as fetching from it
 443 2012-07-02 12:11:18 <TD> or something weird like that
 444 2012-07-02 12:11:38 <sipa> 'mikehearn/leveldb' actually refers to a local branch you have that reflects the known state of a remote branch
 445 2012-07-02 12:11:52 <sipa> you need to pull or fetch to sync that local branch with the actual remote
 446 2012-07-02 12:12:06 <TD> right
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 449 2012-07-02 12:19:15 <BlueMatt> TD: yea...the mingw stuff is somewhat a pain...though I can set up jenkins.bluematt.me to point to one of your branches and it will test the build (including the mingw xcompile) after each new push
 450 2012-07-02 12:19:32 <TD> that might be useful, thanks
 451 2012-07-02 12:19:40 <TD> working on the non-qt OSX makefile at the moment
 452 2012-07-02 12:20:11 * BlueMatt has a folder set up that mimics the in-gitian environment that I can cd to and xcompile bitcoin
 453 2012-07-02 12:20:37 <BlueMatt> it didnt really take /that/ long to set up, if you follow the gitian scripts, but if its more of a one-off thing, its not worth it
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 480 2012-07-02 14:01:35 <TD> BlueMatt: could you repoint jenkins at https://github.com/mikehearn/bitcoin/tree/leveldb please? if this turns out to be too slow/awkward i'll set up the cross-compiled environment myself
 481 2012-07-02 14:01:39 <TD> but hopefully this won't be too tricky
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 485 2012-07-02 14:10:01 <BlueMatt> TD: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-Testing-Build/30/console also follow http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin-Testing-Testsuite/ for testsuite runs
 486 2012-07-02 14:10:24 <TD> thanks. i'm expecting it to fail at the moment
 487 2012-07-02 14:10:25 <BlueMatt> (it should build once every time a new update is pushed to github, just increment the 30
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 489 2012-07-02 14:19:57 <TD> BlueMatt: huh
 490 2012-07-02 14:20:03 <TD> I was expecting the leveldb build to fail
 491 2012-07-02 14:20:14 <TD> it's linking against POSIX emulation libraries on Windows, when built this way?
 492 2012-07-02 14:21:04 <TD> "g++ -I. -I./include -fno-builtin-memcmp -pthread -DOS_LINUX -DLEVELDB_PLATFORM_POSIX"
 493 2012-07-02 14:21:08 <TD> it thinks it's building on linux :(
 494 2012-07-02 14:21:21 <sipa> TD: i think it builds for several platforms
 495 2012-07-02 14:21:26 <sipa> and it's not done yet
 496 2012-07-02 14:21:29 <TD> oh, right
 497 2012-07-02 14:21:34 <TD> i thought it was only doing windows
 498 2012-07-02 14:21:54 <sipa> now it's building bitcoin-qt for linux, it seems
 499 2012-07-02 14:22:35 <TD> yeah
 500 2012-07-02 14:24:21 <BlueMatt> TD: yea look for i586-mingw32msvc-g++ instead of g++ on the compile lines
 501 2012-07-02 14:24:29 <TD> right
 502 2012-07-02 14:24:30 <BlueMatt> TD: sorry, I can switch win32 to build first if you want
 503 2012-07-02 14:24:50 <TD> is this the global bitcoin jenkins? i just realized i'm missing a file that i probably need to acquire from somebody else
 504 2012-07-02 14:24:52 <TD> (or reimplement)
 505 2012-07-02 14:25:03 <TD> so i don't want to keep it pointed at my branch for too long if it'll inconvenience others
 506 2012-07-02 14:25:15 <BlueMatt> its a duplicate project that I point to whatever anyone wants tested
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 508 2012-07-02 14:26:16 <TD> ok, thanks
 509 2012-07-02 14:26:25 <BlueMatt> it only rarely gets used, so, no you arent inconveniencing anyone
 510 2012-07-02 14:27:23 <TD> thanks
 511 2012-07-02 14:28:19 <sipa> it's mainly useful for complaining in this channel when someone breaks git head :)
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 513 2012-07-02 14:32:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: Did you see the comment I made on coblee's pull, where I suggested that perhaps we ought to be using something like size = max(tx_size/2 , 2*tx_size - size_of_redeemed_txouts) as the size metric for priority?
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 515 2012-07-02 14:33:27 <jgarzik> it's a TD!
 516 2012-07-02 14:33:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: no?
 517 2012-07-02 14:34:34 <BlueMatt> and TD leaves in 3...2...1
 518 2012-07-02 14:34:42 <jgarzik> TD: any chance BitcoinJ could look into, at least, absorbing 'addr' message data?  Speaking as the operator of several public nodes listed in DNS seeds, it would be nice to spread the load.
 519 2012-07-02 14:35:03 <jgarzik> TD: And as gmaxwell pointed out, BitcoinJ is more vulnerable in its current state, too
 520 2012-07-02 14:35:07 <TD> yes
 521 2012-07-02 14:35:07 <TD> i know
 522 2012-07-02 14:35:08 <TD> it's lame
 523 2012-07-02 14:35:30 <TD> do you see significant numbers of bitcoinj clients ?
 524 2012-07-02 14:35:55 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1548 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1548>
 525 2012-07-02 14:36:36 <TD> if it's a real load issue right now i can re-prioritize things. otherwise i still need to do proper fees support and a bunch of other things ....
 526 2012-07-02 14:36:36 <TD> i'm aware of it
 527 2012-07-02 14:37:41 <jgarzik> TD: 38/78 connections to my public node are BitcoinJ.  It's definitely noticeable.
 528 2012-07-02 14:37:45 <TD> ok
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 530 2012-07-02 14:37:56 <jgarzik> TD: other public nodes not listed in DNS seeds do not see nearly so many
 531 2012-07-02 14:38:01 <TD> i can bring up a couple of extra nodes on dedicated VMs if you want some more sockets temporarily
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 534 2012-07-02 14:38:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: coblee opened a pull request related to dust spamming attacks that are happening on litecoin, basically he wants to increase the fee by minfee by base for each dust output. I made an aside commenting that this fits into generally changing the fees to discourage txout bloat.
 535 2012-07-02 14:39:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think i suggested something similar over a year ago somewhere on the forum, and others have too iirc
 536 2012-07-02 14:39:30 <jgarzik> TD: If I was running out of resources, I would just stop running bitcoind.  My main point was to illustrate how hard bitcoinj hits the nodes returned from DNS seeds.
 537 2012-07-02 14:39:35 <TD> ok
 538 2012-07-02 14:39:49 <TD> like i said, it's definitely on the todo  list
 539 2012-07-02 14:39:54 <TD> it's just a matter of figuring out the right ordering of work
 540 2012-07-02 14:40:15 <TD> currently i'm 100% on leveldb because it's no good that nodes are starting to bottleneck on IO, so i'm not even changing bitcoinj.
 541 2012-07-02 14:40:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, I think I have too previously. It seemed more relevant now that you've been working on pruning.
 542 2012-07-02 14:40:42 <jgarzik> TD: this is part of my "backbone" project which runs public nodes, so would definitely prefer to leave them up and running, and fix the issues I see (#1: BitcoinJ hits it hard, #2: bitcoin-qt always downloads blocks from seeds)
 543 2012-07-02 14:40:51 <jgarzik> those are the two top problems I see
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 545 2012-07-02 14:41:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: in extremis, the network cost of a transaction is transmission proportional to the txsize, and storage proportional to (created txouts - consumed txouts)
 546 2012-07-02 14:41:51 <sipa> and it seems right to me base priority calculations on how much they impact the network in the long term
 547 2012-07-02 14:42:13 <TD> ok
 548 2012-07-02 14:42:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: unfortunately I don't think there is an obvious tradeoff coefficent for network cost vs storage cost.
 549 2012-07-02 14:42:48 <TD> does anyone know why qmake prints such confusing messages
 550 2012-07-02 14:42:53 <TD> it seems to evaluate all branches of conditionals or something
 551 2012-07-02 14:42:58 <gmaxwell> Though generally I think its correct to significantly priortize storage cost (the future is a long time).
 552 2012-07-02 14:45:52 <sipa> jgarzik: what was the address of your backbone nodes?
 553 2012-07-02 14:45:58 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 554 2012-07-02 14:47:55 <jgarzik> sipa: at present: us[24].exmulti.net, eu3.exmulti.net
 555 2012-07-02 14:48:23 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: agree strongly
 556 2012-07-02 14:48:57 <jgarzik> sipa: they are also listed on the wiki as fallback nodes
 557 2012-07-02 14:51:32 <TD> BlueMatt: how often does jenkins check to see if there are changes
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 559 2012-07-02 14:54:45 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: RE: pull 1526 and coding a "point of no return" .... are you thinking a specific block height/date or something else?
 560 2012-07-02 14:57:30 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'm thinking that the first height where a particular density is reached (perhaps 100% in your window of 1000 ... though realistically it could be the activation point, as no node enforcing this code will go back) then that height becomes the point of no return. After it's happened in the next release it just becomes part of a checkpoint (which would effectively make it a height and date threshold, since dates can't go back pas
 561 2012-07-02 14:58:28 <TD> BlueMatt: seems you are starting them manually .... could I get a login on this jenkins so I can do that ?
 562 2012-07-02 14:59:47 <sipa> TD: afaik it happens automatically
 563 2012-07-02 14:59:51 <gmaxwell> I wish jenkins gave people without logins access to the configs so you could answer questions like how often it polls.
 564 2012-07-02 15:00:26 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ok, so it wouldn't require code changes to the pull, just a note to ourselves to check for 100% acceptance at some future checkpoint
 565 2012-07-02 15:01:49 <gmaxwell> Hm. Well I was more thinking that it would temporarily record the height in this commit, but that would later be replaced with a checkpoint. But now that you mention it— right,  I think it would be safe to make it no return later without that.
 566 2012-07-02 15:02:34 <gmaxwell> The rationale is that someone would have to mine 250 v1 blocks... while all of nodes with this code would be totally rejecting them until they did. Thats unlikely enough that the rule change to make this irreversable would be reasonable safe.
 567 2012-07-02 15:04:25 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: there is a small window of vulnerability between when we write the code that locks in the checkpoint and that release rolls out, but it seems like it would be basically impossible for support to go from 100% down to under-75% in that time.
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 569 2012-07-02 15:05:52 <gmaxwell> it _should_ be impossible to go down from 100% from the moment it hits 75%.  The 75% with your code will reject all blocks without the height.
 570 2012-07-02 15:06:23 <gmaxwell> (well go down from wherever it is once it hits 75%)
 571 2012-07-02 15:06:28 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: no, the if (nVersion > 1) means the rule is only enforced for version=2+ blocks
 572 2012-07-02 15:06:32 <TD> sipa: apparently not at the moment
 573 2012-07-02 15:06:41 <TD> sipa: the last build says it was started by BlueMatt manually
 574 2012-07-02 15:06:47 <jgarzik> version=2 TXs make more sense than blocks
 575 2012-07-02 15:07:14 <jgarzik> even with p2sh, the only blocks we would actually reject are ones with entirely invalid p2sh transactions
 576 2012-07-02 15:07:31 <sipa> but we're not changing transaction validation rules now
 577 2012-07-02 15:07:35 <sipa> only block validation rules
 578 2012-07-02 15:07:38 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: ah, okay, I misunderstood that.
 579 2012-07-02 15:07:38 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: this is block-height-in-the-coinbase
 580 2012-07-02 15:08:20 <jgarzik> Yes, I'm aware of that.  Drawing an analogy.  Getting to 100% acceptance of ver=2 blocks will be a chore, and locking in will hurt older miners if it kicks in at 75%, yes?
 581 2012-07-02 15:08:34 <gavinandresen> yes, that's why it's not locked in at 75%
 582 2012-07-02 15:08:44 * jgarzik recalling the experience of p2sh and older miners
 583 2012-07-02 15:08:54 <gavinandresen> The thing that is locked in at 75% is "If you produce a block with nVersion=2, then you MUST follow this new rule"
 584 2012-07-02 15:08:59 * sipa hopes this change will be less controversial
 585 2012-07-02 15:09:16 <jgarzik> as long as older miners are not hurt, life is good
 586 2012-07-02 15:09:22 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: well darn. Then I do think we should force v2 blocks to at some point. And there is an advantage to putting that rule in at the start.
 587 2012-07-02 15:09:51 <gmaxwell> (If we don't have the rule at the start then we need to use some other signaling mechinism to signal that a node is going to start forcing the rule)
 588 2012-07-02 15:09:59 <gavinandresen> Old miners can continue producing nVersion=1 blocks until "we" decide they can't any more....
 589 2012-07-02 15:10:15 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 590 2012-07-02 15:10:34 <jgarzik> yeah, already ACK'd the "if block ver=2, height in coinbase must be correct" change
 591 2012-07-02 15:10:36 <sipa> i think that point of no-v1-allowed-anymore should be decided and coded in advance
 592 2012-07-02 15:10:42 <jgarzik> that clearly does not kill older miners
 593 2012-07-02 15:11:01 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not especially concerned about the old miners so long as the switch criteria is tall enough. The same miners who will get orphaned because they didn't update are too disconnected from bitcoin to raise a fuss.
 594 2012-07-02 15:11:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: I agree it should be decided in advance, I'm not sure it makes sense to decide it right now.
 595 2012-07-02 15:11:31 <sipa> the rule can be "one year after the v2-active code kicks in" or so
 596 2012-07-02 15:11:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hmmm... while technically true, I think following that train of logic may lead us dev'ers to cathedral-ism
 597 2012-07-02 15:11:51 <gmaxwell> I like switches on height rather than time.
 598 2012-07-02 15:11:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: ack
 599 2012-07-02 15:12:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ack
 600 2012-07-02 15:12:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if the code doesn't eventually enforce it then this rule change doesn't have protective power.
 601 2012-07-02 15:12:49 * jgarzik doesn't see a driving need to define a height for forcing ver=2 switchover, at this time.
 602 2012-07-02 15:12:57 <gmaxwell> Yea, I don't feel strongly about deciding now except the aformentioned problem of coordiating the lock point.
 603 2012-07-02 15:13:00 <jgarzik> go ahead and push the ver=2 checking, sure
 604 2012-07-02 15:13:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: because you can still choose to mine duplicate coinbases using v1 blocks.
 605 2012-07-02 15:13:43 <jgarzik> yep
 606 2012-07-02 15:13:53 <jgarzik> nice to fix, butthe world isn't ending
 607 2012-07-02 15:14:04 <gmaxwell> Well maybe. :)
 608 2012-07-02 15:14:47 <gavinandresen> I'd like to roll out 1526, then talk about rolling out a version=2 mandatory when 80+% of the blocks are version=2
 609 2012-07-02 15:15:24 <gmaxwell> We will then need a coordination mechenism for activating the v=2 lock.
 610 2012-07-02 15:15:39 <gmaxwell> (vs being able to use the v2 blocks themselves as that mechenism)
 611 2012-07-02 15:16:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: good point
 612 2012-07-02 15:17:16 <gmaxwell> Thats why I prefer to figure that out now, though I certantly understand you reason for not wanting to do that— it would be sad to delay the height stuff as a result of disagreement over the lock-in rule.
 613 2012-07-02 15:17:39 <gmaxwell> Though I think it should be easy to decide on a lock in rule that no one participating in the discussion objects to.  (Ha. Famous last words)
 614 2012-07-02 15:22:05 rdponticelli has joined
 615 2012-07-02 15:23:54 <TD> sipa: are you planning on multi-threading tx verification at some point, post your refactor?
 616 2012-07-02 15:27:14 p0s- has joined
 617 2012-07-02 15:27:24 <sipa> TD: not immediately, though it's certainly a nice potential improvement
 618 2012-07-02 15:27:50 <TD> ok
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 620 2012-07-02 15:31:24 <TD> right. the issue is leveldb doesn't know it's supposed to be x-compiled
 621 2012-07-02 15:31:27 <TD> hrmph
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 635 2012-07-02 16:06:34 <BlueMatt> TD: sorry, was mowing the lawn...sorry I tried the other automatic setting...guess it doesnt work, Ill set it to poll
 636 2012-07-02 16:07:50 <TD> ok, thanks
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 643 2012-07-02 16:26:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: your mower has an automatic setting?  I want one.
 644 2012-07-02 16:26:27 <luke-jr> khalahan: I'd start with "git merge" :p
 645 2012-07-02 16:26:56 <luke-jr> khalahan: probably most importantly, you don't want to accidentally fork namecoin with P2SH
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 647 2012-07-02 16:28:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I wish, though one of the neighbors has a roomba-style mower
 648 2012-07-02 16:29:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: heh, I hope it zig-zags all over the lawn and bounces off trees like a roomba, too
 649 2012-07-02 16:29:59 <BlueMatt> dunno, never paid attention, though he has said hes very happy with it
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 654 2012-07-02 17:10:58 <jgarzik> hrm
 655 2012-07-02 17:11:08 <jgarzik> bitcoind should log who sends orphan TXs
 656 2012-07-02 17:11:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you get orphans on every newly restarted node though— they aren't unusual if your node doesn't have quite high uptimes.
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 659 2012-07-02 17:12:20 <jgarzik> once you're caught up, it is an unusual event
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 664 2012-07-02 17:13:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: dunno why you say that what I suggested is highly unlikely. Miners would have a clear profit motive: Step 1. don't run the new code, step 2. wait for 40% of the miners to run the new code (easily measured). Step 3. make your next block broken v2, = profit.
 665 2012-07-02 17:14:16 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't _personally_ do that, but I'm pretty sure there are people who would— just like someone pretty quickly started with the invalid p2sh txn after bip16 took effect.
 666 2012-07-02 17:14:52 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it is anti-social, and would simply motivate the other side to ignore the nutter miners.  end result would be acceleration of the ver-2-required rule.
 667 2012-07-02 17:15:39 <jgarzik> not impossible, but there are definite counter-incentives
 668 2012-07-02 17:16:01 <gmaxwell> And then we take a hundred block reorg with double spends in it when people do wake up and quickly deploy the code after the fork has formed?
 669 2012-07-02 17:16:51 <gmaxwell> It would in fact be _bad_ in that case to get more nodes to deploy the v2 code once the split had grown longer than 6 blocks or so.
 670 2012-07-02 17:17:34 <gmaxwell> (because as soon as it was noticed jerkwads would show up and start trying to get conflicting txn in the split components)
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 676 2012-07-02 17:26:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: <shrug> philosophical difference.  nevertheless, gavinandresen's change is fine as-is, as I noted.  we don't have to be as aggressive as I suggested in the comment; it's an option.
 677 2012-07-02 17:26:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: you just have a different risk calculus :)
 678 2012-07-02 17:27:27 <gavinandresen> I'm with gmaxwell, too dangerous to start enforcing "v=2 means blah"
 679 2012-07-02 17:27:47 <gavinandresen> Rational miners would just never validate v=2 blocks.
 680 2012-07-02 17:28:20 * luke-jr wonders the status of sipa's version BIP
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 682 2012-07-02 17:28:25 <gavinandresen> I'm still thinking about the "when to start rejecting v=1 blocks" ....
 683 2012-07-02 17:28:38 <gavinandresen> sipa : you writing a versioning BIP?
 684 2012-07-02 17:29:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, I'm only belaboring it because I wanted to make sure you were at least aware of how I reason about fork risks.
 685 2012-07-02 17:31:07 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: what "reject v=1" rule were you imagining would be non-controversial?
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 688 2012-07-02 17:34:16 <gmaxwell> Anything which is 'sufficiently close' to 100% will be uncontroversial, assuming that the change itself is uncontroversal (I expect it to be).  Ignoring the complexity of updating it, I'd just do something like 'stop accepting v1 when 95% of the last 1000 are v2' or something like that. There is a slight tradeoff — setting it too close to 100% has the risk that it won't be hit until the far future and we'll have forgotten about that change
 689 2012-07-02 17:35:19 <BlueMatt> how long did it take to get to various high values for bip16?
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 691 2012-07-02 17:35:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: long time ago, i'm sure you've seen it
 692 2012-07-02 17:35:50 <gmaxwell> bbl
 693 2012-07-02 17:36:08 <BlueMatt> hmm...looks like we still arent at 75% p2sh
 694 2012-07-02 17:36:52 <sipa> gavinandresen: https://gist.github.com/1728493
 695 2012-07-02 17:37:51 <sipa> gavinandresen: though i think there were issues with it that i never addressed
 696 2012-07-02 17:38:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: backports don't put it in the coinbase, even though they enforce it, FWIW
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 699 2012-07-02 17:39:52 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you dont happen to have a p2sh % based on version number in those graphs you had been making based on seeds.txt?
 700 2012-07-02 17:40:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: sure, but that's nodes, not mined blocks
 701 2012-07-02 17:40:29 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html?16
 702 2012-07-02 17:41:52 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you dont happen to know any major pools other than eligius that use backport-based bitcoinds?
 703 2012-07-02 17:42:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: specifically, probably just TripleMining and EclipseMC
 704 2012-07-02 17:42:47 <luke-jr> AFAIK they run my next-eligius branch (0.6.0.x)
 705 2012-07-02 17:43:00 <BlueMatt> wont 0.6.0.x put it in coinbase?
 706 2012-07-02 17:43:03 <luke-jr> probably
 707 2012-07-02 17:43:12 <luke-jr> but Eloipool probably doesn't.
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 709 2012-07-02 17:43:38 <luke-jr> partly since bitcoind isn't using BIP22 compliant getmemorypool for it <.<
 710 2012-07-02 17:43:44 <BlueMatt> mmm...well whatever, I doubt there is more than a few % of mining power in such nodes, at least not significant enough to get up to 80%
 711 2012-07-02 17:44:31 <luke-jr> thing is
 712 2012-07-02 17:44:40 <luke-jr> that invalid P2SH a while ago should have wiped out any that aren't enforcing
 713 2012-07-02 17:45:00 <luke-jr> I suppose someone could do the same thing again and see if it gets anywhere
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 722 2012-07-02 18:14:23 <kinlo> luke-jr: actually, I run stock bitcoind, no changes for the pool
 723 2012-07-02 18:14:39 <kinlo> and for the wallet I run custom patches
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 726 2012-07-02 18:15:21 <luke-jr> kinlo: you don't use bitcoind for wallet?
 727 2012-07-02 18:15:40 <kinlo> ofcourse I do
 728 2012-07-02 18:16:40 <kinlo> just only my own patches
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 735 2012-07-02 18:22:23 <gmaxwell> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/3618498/4005d6bea3a93fb72f006d23e2685b85069d270cb57d15f0c057ef2d5e3f78d2  < mined as recently as 06/18
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 737 2012-07-02 18:23:48 <Matt_von_Mises> What's the purpose of having network addresses in the version message?
 738 2012-07-02 18:23:59 <Matt_von_Mises> What are they used for from the version messages?
 739 2012-07-02 18:24:32 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: they could be used to remove the insane external dependency for address discovery, but they are not currently.
 740 2012-07-02 18:25:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: heh, nice
 741 2012-07-02 18:27:00 <Matt_von_Mises> How would that work?
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 743 2012-07-02 18:27:16 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell
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 745 2012-07-02 18:29:39 <kinlo> gmaxwell: which versions accept that tx as valid/invalid?
 746 2012-07-02 18:29:52 Marf has joined
 747 2012-07-02 18:30:13 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: your peers all tell you that you are 1.2.3.4, without knowing anything better than that.. you assume its true.
 748 2012-07-02 18:30:45 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh, you mean discovering your own address.
 749 2012-07-02 18:30:47 <Matt_von_Mises> I see
 750 2012-07-02 18:30:50 <gmaxwell> kinlo: pre-BIP16, so prior to 0.6 (excluding luke's backports)
 751 2012-07-02 18:31:12 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: right now the client software does something so horrible I shudder to speak of it.
 752 2012-07-02 18:31:32 <kinlo> mmmz, so it get's orphaned because the network isn't suffisantly upgraded?
 753 2012-07-02 18:32:27 <gmaxwell> kinlo: it gets created because there are a few miners that aren't upgraded.
 754 2012-07-02 18:32:33 <gavinandresen> no, it gets orphaned because the network IS sufficiently upgraded
 755 2012-07-02 18:32:40 <gmaxwell> ^ and that.
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 757 2012-07-02 18:40:09 <Matt_von_Mises> I might be a stupid question but why does a bitcoin node even need to know the IP address of itself?
 758 2012-07-02 18:43:05 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: in order to advertise its existance to other peers.
 759 2012-07-02 18:43:53 <Matt_von_Mises> Why does it need it's own IP to do that?
 760 2012-07-02 18:44:00 <gmaxwell> ...
 761 2012-07-02 18:44:29 <gmaxwell> If I'm going to write an announcement to tell other nodes to connect to me I need to know my address, so I can put it in the announcement.
 762 2012-07-02 18:44:42 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh wait, you mean on the IRC channel method?
 763 2012-07-02 18:44:47 <gmaxwell> No.
 764 2012-07-02 18:44:52 <gmaxwell> We no longer use IRC.
 765 2012-07-02 18:45:11 <gmaxwell> (although that needs to know its IP too, though the IRC server tells it)
 766 2012-07-02 18:45:55 <Matt_von_Mises> So when you connect directly to an address via DNS or whatever, can't the peer you connect to find your IP address without you needing to send it?
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 769 2012-07-02 18:47:08 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: Nodes announce themselves, rather than others announcing on their behalf because nodes may not wish to announce for varrious reasons. (e.g. because they won't actually accept, or because they are trying to be a bit more covert, or because they are not currently in sync with the network)
 770 2012-07-02 18:47:49 <gmaxwell> Also, the address I connected to you from may not be the one I accept connections on. (I have nodes run like that)
 771 2012-07-02 18:49:12 <gmaxwell> Right now the reference client doesn't announce if it's not in sync, or if it has listening disabled. (it may still announce if listening is enabled but it can't be reached due to firewalling— it can't tell)
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 774 2012-07-02 18:53:18 <Matt_von_Mises> So it's so that you can connect to a node on behalf of another address? Because that's what I mean, nodes could assume incoming connections to be for the address of the connection if IP addresses weren't included in the bitcoin messages.
 775 2012-07-02 18:53:40 Cubox has joined
 776 2012-07-02 18:53:45 <Cubox> Hi
 777 2012-07-02 18:53:55 <Cubox> I have some problems putting the genesis block on the code
 778 2012-07-02 18:54:26 <Matt_von_Mises> Though I've not done loads on networking before so I need to make sure I know what I'm doing.
 779 2012-07-02 18:54:38 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: Can you try stating that another way, because I'm not following you.
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 783 2012-07-02 18:55:12 <Cubox> http://pastebin.com/sJvvyFbg
 784 2012-07-02 18:55:33 <Cubox> There is some part in code where i don't know what to put
 785 2012-07-02 18:55:36 <jrmithdobbs> Matt_von_Mises: i think i get what you're saying but you don't solve anything with it because now you have to make sure the intermediary proxies don't modify the messages
 786 2012-07-02 18:55:46 <Cubox>         txNew.vin[0].scriptSig = CScript() << 486604799 << CBigNum(4) << vector<unsigned char>((const unsigned char*)pszTimestamp, (const unsigned char*)pszTimestamp + strlen(pszTimestamp));
 787 2012-07-02 18:55:54 <Cubox>         txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey = CScript() << ParseHex("040184710fa689ad5023690c80f3a49c8f13f8d45b8c857fbcbc8bc4a8e4d3eb4b10f4d4604fa08dce601aaf0f470216fe1b51850b4acf21b179c45070ac7b03a9") << OP_CHECKSIG;
 788 2012-07-02 18:57:42 <D34TH> cubox please use pastebin
 789 2012-07-02 18:57:50 <gmaxwell> Cubox: what is your actual problem?  In the form of "I try to do X, I expect Y, I get Z instead"?
 790 2012-07-02 18:58:07 <Matt_von_Mises> jrmithdobbs: I thought bitcoin doesn't use TLS/SSL or whatever so that messages can be modified anyway?
 791 2012-07-02 18:58:21 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: can you try again on what you were saying for me?
 792 2012-07-02 18:58:31 <Cubox> I try to make a genesis block for puting it in the code of my work, i expect that i knew what to put in the two lignes of code i pasted, but i diden't
 793 2012-07-02 18:58:34 <D34TH> gmaxwell: he is trying to fork but failing at getting new genesis
 794 2012-07-02 18:58:46 <Cubox> s/work/fork/
 795 2012-07-02 18:59:01 <Cubox> http://github.com/Cubox-/BBQCoin/
 796 2012-07-02 18:59:02 <gmaxwell> Cubox: what you pasted looked successful to me.
 797 2012-07-02 18:59:12 <gavinandresen> Part of me feels like saying if you can't figure out how to write some code to generate a new genesis block, then you don't know enough to create your own fork.....
 798 2012-07-02 18:59:15 denisx_ has joined
 799 2012-07-02 18:59:15 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: I'm saying that when connecting to a node that node could tell your IP from the connection but then you are saying that you could connect on a different IP than the node you want to use to communicate.
 800 2012-07-02 18:59:55 <Cubox> gmaxwell: yes, but what is pasted is the real block, not my crafted one :)
 801 2012-07-02 19:00:08 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: It can see an IP. It may or may not be yours. It may be yours but it may or may not be the one you accept incoming connections on.
 802 2012-07-02 19:00:15 <jrmithdobbs> Matt_von_Mises: yes but when you're dealing with one node to one node communication that's not a big deal (you verify across multiple different peers so as long as your direct upstream isn't fucked you're ok), but if you allow other people to "speak" for you it complicates things and you almost have to start using tls/etc to ensure you're getting the answers to the questions you actually asked
 803 2012-07-02 19:00:17 <Cubox> I mined this block with the litecoin genesis block, and now, i'm putting it in the code
 804 2012-07-02 19:00:39 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: Lets just assume it actually sees yours, and ignore the corner cases like you having multiple addresses. Now what?
 805 2012-07-02 19:01:20 <jrmithdobbs> Matt_von_Mises: i think there's some fundamentaly ip or tcp misunderstanding causing confusion here (I do not mean that as an insult)
 806 2012-07-02 19:01:27 <jrmithdobbs> s/fundamentaly/fundamental/
 807 2012-07-02 19:01:35 <Matt_von_Mises> jrmithdobbs: But someone can still place a fake IP in a bitcoin message.
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 810 2012-07-02 19:01:43 <gmaxwell> Yes? and?
 811 2012-07-02 19:01:54 <jrmithdobbs> so?
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 813 2012-07-02 19:02:05 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: you're breaking my effort to be somewhat socratic here.
 814 2012-07-02 19:02:07 <jrmithdobbs> they can't do anything particularly interesting with it because of the POW system
 815 2012-07-02 19:02:15 <gmaxwell> 0_o
 816 2012-07-02 19:02:27 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: sorry, do continue ;p
 817 2012-07-02 19:02:55 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: would you please answer my query above?  Assume a peer has correctly pulled out your real IP on inbound. So what?
 818 2012-07-02 19:02:57 <Matt_von_Mises> So why does the IP information in the bitcoin messages prevent other nodes "speaking" for you then?
 819 2012-07-02 19:03:06 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i need to go check if my car's dry from the shampoo'ing yet anyways. stupid ants. :(
 820 2012-07-02 19:03:25 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: Exactly, so what?
 821 2012-07-02 19:03:56 <Cubox> any ideas for my problem ? :/
 822 2012-07-02 19:03:58 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: er. I'm saying that a peer has discovered your correct IP by looking at the inbound address on the socket, not from the inbound protocol.
 823 2012-07-02 19:04:45 <jrmithdobbs> Matt_von_Mises: because they can deliver arbitrary responses to any messages by mangling your request before sending to the "real" intended peeer, so you may ask "give me block at height XXXXYYYY" but actually get as a response 500 blocks at height YYYYZZZ, that should illustrate one of the problems (it becomes a bigger issue within the protocol because participants have an incentive to cheat whereas typically the internet as a whole has no i
 824 2012-07-02 19:06:03 <Matt_von_Mises> That's what I'm saying. What is wrong with that? But I accept that nodes might want to advertise an alternative address.
 825 2012-07-02 19:06:15 <Matt_von_Mises> That was for gmaxwell sorry.
 826 2012-07-02 19:06:38 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: Because it would be not good at all if all peers were advertising your address instead of you.
 827 2012-07-02 19:06:40 <Cubox> should i come back later ?
 828 2012-07-02 19:07:25 <gmaxwell> Cubox: I think that no one in here is likely to help you. None of us have genesis block creation fresh in our memory and we all have too much else to deal with right now.  Part of the fun is figuring this out anyways. You can do it. :)
 829 2012-07-02 19:07:53 <Cubox> gmaxwell: :(
 830 2012-07-02 19:08:24 <gavinandresen> Cubox : look at it from our point of view:  "Hey, I want to spend a bunch of time on this other thing instead of helping with Bitcoin.  And I want YOU to help me!"
 831 2012-07-02 19:08:37 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: A peer you connect to does not (1) know if you'll accept incoming connections at all, (2) know if you are healty or overloaded, (3) know what your preferred addresses are.
 832 2012-07-02 19:09:09 <Cubox> hmm, okey :)
 833 2012-07-02 19:09:24 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: and so while a peer _could_ announce your address without your consent based on just the connection he saw coming in. ... That wouldn't be good for the system and so normal peers don't do that.
 834 2012-07-02 19:09:59 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: the addresses in the version message are so he can tell you what he observes about your address, and so you can — at your option— choose to use that information.
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 844 2012-07-02 19:27:05 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1549 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1549>
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 846 2012-07-02 19:33:10 <Matt_von_Mises> "the addresses in the version message are so he can tell you what he observes about your address" If you want to gather your IP from querying this way, would you send a version message with a version less than 106 to avoid sending an address for yourself you do not know. Or do you send a dummy IP address?
 847 2012-07-02 19:33:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Because the idea is you don't know your IP address yet and want to know.
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 849 2012-07-02 19:35:08 <phantomcircuit> you send 0.0.0.0
 850 2012-07-02 19:35:18 <phantomcircuit> iirc the client already does that if you're using a proxy
 851 2012-07-02 19:35:23 <jgarzik> yep
 852 2012-07-02 19:35:33 <jgarzik> though TD's BitcoinJ seems to send 127.0.0.1
 853 2012-07-02 19:39:29 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: What you send doesn't matter. Your peer tells you what it sees always.
 854 2012-07-02 19:40:54 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: The source IP you send in the version message does what then if it doesn't matter?
 855 2012-07-02 19:41:30 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: It does nothing. It's just informative.
 856 2012-07-02 19:44:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: didnt you say you wanted this at some point? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1549
 857 2012-07-02 19:45:02 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: Sounds like a waste of space then… This is all very confusing...
 858 2012-07-02 19:46:19 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: 'waste of space' you mean .. like the version and the subversion identifiers?
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 860 2012-07-02 19:51:15 <Matt_von_Mises> The version information is used and where not used may be used in the future but what conceivable use does this second address field have?
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 862 2012-07-02 19:53:29 <Matt_von_Mises> This is so confusing, I need to make a topic on the forums I think...
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 867 2012-07-02 20:04:38 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: the version information is mostly not used. The full version information is expressly forbidden from being used, if you care what the BIP says.
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 870 2012-07-02 20:16:56 <Matt_von_Mises> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91231.0 Really it comes down to "Why not trust TCP/IP?".
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 876 2012-07-02 20:34:03 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: are you just going to keep answering until someone tells you what you're expecting to hear? :(
 877 2012-07-02 20:34:29 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: Until I'm no longer confused hopefully. :P
 878 2012-07-02 20:35:22 <gmaxwell> You seem to have totally ignored that I said about it being important that nodes only announce themselves voluntarily and not be involuntarily announced by nodes they connect to. :(
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 880 2012-07-02 20:36:58 <Matt_von_Mises> That doesn't answer my question. If that was the case then you could just have a flag when connecting that says "OK share my address".
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 882 2012-07-02 20:38:31 <Diapolo> Can someone give me a testnet addr? I need to send some coins for testing.
 883 2012-07-02 20:40:14 <Matt_von_Mises> Any valid address?
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 885 2012-07-02 20:40:32 <Diapolo> http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/ I forgot that one ^^ don't need one then
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 899 2012-07-02 20:51:45 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: the reason we dont have a flag for that, is because thats not the way satoshi did it
 900 2012-07-02 20:52:33 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: Do you mean I'm correct that the way bitcoin shares socket information is silly?
 901 2012-07-02 20:55:04 <BlueMatt> no, its not silly, its just different
 902 2012-07-02 20:55:28 <BlueMatt> it does avoid some issues where you may connect to a node using a non-public ip, and then that non-public ip (in a public range) gets announced
 903 2012-07-02 20:55:38 <BlueMatt> admittedly very rare, but...
 904 2012-07-02 20:57:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thats how my nodes work. ::shrugs::
 905 2012-07-02 20:57:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I have multiple internet connections but only one gets announced.
 906 2012-07-02 20:58:00 <gmaxwell> (because I don't want @#$@# dos attackers hitting all of them)
 907 2012-07-02 20:58:30 <gmaxwell> Also means you can do things like connect out on v4 and tell people your onion for inbound.
 908 2012-07-02 20:59:20 <BlueMatt> yep
 909 2012-07-02 20:59:51 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: it adds options that weren't there before, even if they arent really common uses, its just the way satoshi chose to do it
 910 2012-07-02 20:59:58 <BlueMatt> and there is absolutely no reason to change it
 911 2012-07-02 21:01:33 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm just trying to think about how internally redundant data can be removed. I'll come back to this. For now I've got other stuff to do. So thanks, I'm off.
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 913 2012-07-02 21:02:38 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: "internally redundant data can be removed"  thats like polishing grains of sand on the beach.
 914 2012-07-02 21:03:08 <gmaxwell> :)
 915 2012-07-02 21:03:35 <Diapolo> I like such a passion ^^
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 917 2012-07-02 21:06:37 <Diapolo> Can someone help, I think there is something wrong here:
 918 2012-07-02 21:07:12 <Diapolo> // Payment to self
 919 2012-07-02 21:07:12 <Diapolo> int64 nChange = wtx.GetChange();
 920 2012-07-02 21:07:12 <Diapolo> int64 nValue = nCredit - nChange;
 921 2012-07-02 21:07:12 <Diapolo> strHTML += tr("<b>Debit:</b> ") + BitcoinUnits::formatWithUnit(BitcoinUnits::BTC, -nValue) + "<br>";
 922 2012-07-02 21:07:12 <Diapolo> strHTML += tr("<b>Credit:</b> ") + BitcoinUnits::formatWithUnit(BitcoinUnits::BTC, nValue) + "<br>";
 923 2012-07-02 21:07:31 <Diapolo> Why is -nValue the Debit and nValue the Credit?
 924 2012-07-02 21:15:33 <BlueMatt> I havent looked at where the code is, but Id guess its because either Debit or Credit is hidden based on the tx type somehow
 925 2012-07-02 21:15:41 <BlueMatt> otherwise we have a bug and are showing both in some txes?
 926 2012-07-02 21:16:30 <Diapolo> wait I'll point you to the code
 927 2012-07-02 21:17:04 <Diapolo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/transactiondesc.cpp#L191
 928 2012-07-02 21:17:21 <Diapolo> I'm working on the strings and stumbled uppon that part.
 929 2012-07-02 21:18:25 <BlueMatt> oh...if its a payment from self to self and all inputs and all outputs are to/from self, then its both a credit and debit
 930 2012-07-02 21:18:28 <BlueMatt> and they are both the same value
 931 2012-07-02 21:19:04 <Diapolo> ah darn of course same out same in
 932 2012-07-02 21:21:08 <Diapolo> sorry and thanks :)
 933 2012-07-02 21:21:51 <BlueMatt> np, I sure as hell miss more obvious things than that
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 979 2012-07-02 23:19:19 <jrmithdobbs> so, there's lots of smart people here, maybe you'll have ideas
 980 2012-07-02 23:19:24 <jrmithdobbs> how do i get ants out of my fuckin car
 981 2012-07-02 23:19:53 <jrmithdobbs> (i shampooed everything this morning even though it wasn't really dirty in the first place, not like the floor was covered in soda or something)
 982 2012-07-02 23:20:12 <bonks> ant poison
 983 2012-07-02 23:20:33 <jrmithdobbs> where? and I have dogs so that's a bitch because that means another $100 detailing before they can get in :(
 984 2012-07-02 23:20:46 <jrmithdobbs> they're fire ants so they're that much harder to bait/kill too :(
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 986 2012-07-02 23:21:20 <bonks> use granules which you place directly on their trail, wait til it's all consumed or vacuum it up before letting dogs/children in
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 988 2012-07-02 23:22:40 <bonks> they'll consume it within 2 days and i do this about every 1-2 months , but i guess it depends on the type of ants (i dont have fire ants)
 989 2012-07-02 23:22:44 <jrmithdobbs> that wont work
 990 2012-07-02 23:22:56 <gmaxwell> disassemble everything?
 991 2012-07-02 23:22:57 <jrmithdobbs> the trails are on unsecured areas and will get knocked off if the car moves
 992 2012-07-02 23:23:20 <bonks> just pay a pest control dude a few bucks to take away the stress
 993 2012-07-02 23:23:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i pulled up the panel i thought they were under only to find out they're not there but using it as an access point to somewhere up under the dash/engine compartment
 994 2012-07-02 23:23:43 <jrmithdobbs> so tearing out any more to get more specific gets expensive/hard to store since in an apartment :(
 995 2012-07-02 23:23:59 <gmaxwell> can you seal off their path there?
 996 2012-07-02 23:24:13 <jrmithdobbs> maybe
 997 2012-07-02 23:24:23 <jrmithdobbs> i'll have to look a little closer but i think so
 998 2012-07-02 23:24:38 <bonks> silicone works
 999 2012-07-02 23:24:46 <jrmithdobbs> think covering the tires (for exit point from the vehicle) in raid or similar would help so they either starve or get poisoned?
1000 2012-07-02 23:26:08 <gmaxwell> if they're realy coming from outside and not nesting in the engine compartment someplace... just change where you park.
1001 2012-07-02 23:27:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, done all the simple stuff, shappoo'ed everything, parking across the parking lot (annoying), not putting matts back in until after it's figured out (since they're clean now), i was just able to roll windows back up since fabric dried
1002 2012-07-02 23:27:52 <jrmithdobbs> I'm thinking leave it how it is over night parked somewhere different with the windows rolled up and hope it gets back up to 95ish tonight like it might and kill the bitches
1003 2012-07-02 23:28:38 <jrmithdobbs> s/shappoo'ed/shampoo'ed/
1004 2012-07-02 23:29:03 <jrmithdobbs> also parked it in direct sunlight to help some
1005 2012-07-02 23:29:14 <jrmithdobbs> like, that spot has direct sunlight 80% of the day
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1021 2012-07-02 23:53:26 <nanotube> jrmithdobbs: that panel that you pulled out - put some slow acting ant poison there, put panel back. ants eat it, take back to nest, nest dies, profit.
1022 2012-07-02 23:54:00 <nanotube> and since it's behind the panel, animals can't get in and eat it themselves.
1023 2012-07-02 23:54:26 <jrmithdobbs> nanotube: good thinking.
1024 2012-07-02 23:54:40 <nanotube> the best poison i find is the liquid-gel stuff that comes in a syringe
1025 2012-07-02 23:54:51 <nanotube> iirc called 'combat'
1026 2012-07-02 23:55:06 <jrmithdobbs> ya nothing else works on fire ants except some of the liquid/gel ones anyways
1027 2012-07-02 23:55:08 <nanotube> just put a bead of that down behind the panel where they walk.
1028 2012-07-02 23:55:19 <jrmithdobbs> they say it does, but it doesn't, those things are evil.
1029 2012-07-02 23:55:45 <nanotube> hehe dunno about fire ants specifically, but it works on other ants that we've had around here.
1030 2012-07-02 23:56:28 <jrmithdobbs> think of the most agressive ant/most painful ant bite you've had, they're about 10x more agressive/painful and much much harder to kill :(
1031 2012-07-02 23:56:45 <jrmithdobbs> not as bad as like the bullet ants and stuff in the amazon, but they're tiny and spread like fire
1032 2012-07-02 23:57:13 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1033 2012-07-02 23:57:41 <jrmithdobbs> it was 'wtf?!' when i saw ants in the car, it was 'WTF?!?!WTF?!?!' when i saw they were fire ants :(
1034 2012-07-02 23:57:48 <nanotube> heh