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 18 2012-07-08 01:56:08 <Diablo-D3> I thought we wernt logging this channel?
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 20 2012-07-08 02:01:35 <luke-jr> you're confusing it with #bitcoin
 21 2012-07-08 02:01:54 <Diablo-D3> no, I thought this one wasnt logged either
 22 2012-07-08 02:02:07 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell went on some anti logging cruisade awhile back
 23 2012-07-08 02:06:23 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jothan opened issue 1568 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1568>
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 26 2012-07-08 02:08:55 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: no you're nuts.
 27 2012-07-08 02:09:17 <Diablo-D3> no, I remember you throwing a fit about it
 28 2012-07-08 02:09:22 <gmaxwell> I dont generally care about logging, beyond the fact of freenode policy against public logs without notice.
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 39 2012-07-08 03:03:04 <Brett__> hello
 40 2012-07-08 03:03:40 <Brett__> as soon as i open the wallet "this application has requested the runtime to terminate in an unusual way"
 41 2012-07-08 03:03:49 <Brett__> and then it crashes
 42 2012-07-08 03:04:46 <Diablo-D3> then dont do that.
 43 2012-07-08 03:05:03 <Brett__> then i cant acces my bitcoin wallet
 44 2012-07-08 03:05:43 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 45 2012-07-08 03:06:31 <luke-jr> Brett__: what version?
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 47 2012-07-08 03:07:00 <Brett__> sorry but how do i check the version?
 48 2012-07-08 03:07:35 <luke-jr> dunno
 49 2012-07-08 03:08:00 <Brett__> i only downlaoded it the other day
 50 2012-07-08 03:09:55 <luke-jr> try 0.5.3rc3 for now https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=88826
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 67 2012-07-08 03:50:10 <freewil> does anything ever get written to db.log
 68 2012-07-08 03:50:23 <freewil> maybe only seriously fatal errors?
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159 2012-07-08 10:46:25 <amiller> the 49% vs 51% thing is a dimensionless quantity
160 2012-07-08 10:47:21 TD has joined
161 2012-07-08 10:47:47 <amiller> the ideal number of blocks to wait for should depend only on that spread and not on something like time
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186 2012-07-08 12:36:57 <Ferroh> amiller, explain.
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188 2012-07-08 12:37:45 <Ferroh> you're suggesting that if the last block was found in 1 minute, then we should ideally wait for more blocks than if it was found in 20 minutes, correct?
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190 2012-07-08 12:41:20 <amiller> there are only two environment parameters the way i'm looking at it, one is the delay it takes for blocks to propagate to everyone, the other is the relative tolerance for bad behavior like 49%/51%
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203 2012-07-08 13:58:36 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
204 2012-07-08 14:06:09 plato has joined
205 2012-07-08 14:06:12 <plato> o/
206 2012-07-08 14:06:27 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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208 2012-07-08 14:06:59 <plato> can v0.6.3 read wallets from v0.3.x
209 2012-07-08 14:07:43 <sipa> yes
210 2012-07-08 14:08:56 <plato> will it modify the file
211 2012-07-08 14:09:21 <plato> i.e. can I go back and use the same file on 0.3.x client after opening it once in 0.6.3
212 2012-07-08 14:09:24 <sipa> yes
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214 2012-07-08 14:09:28 <plato> kthx!
215 2012-07-08 14:09:30 ThomasV has joined
216 2012-07-08 14:09:33 <sipa> unless you use -upgradewallet or encrypt the file
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222 2012-07-08 14:31:12 <amiller> gmaxwell, here's another good one i think you'll like
223 2012-07-08 14:31:35 <amiller> ( time-to-trigger  ||   txhash )
224 2012-07-08 14:32:11 <D34TH> so i figured out why i cant get bitcoin-qt to compile on windows so far
225 2012-07-08 14:32:11 <amiller> this way something like something can be triggered by the absence of a transaction
226 2012-07-08 14:32:20 <D34TH> libdb hates me
227 2012-07-08 14:32:48 <amiller> something like a namecoin registration*
228 2012-07-08 14:33:06 <amiller> this would also be the way i would implement garbage collection or demurrage or replenishing the money pool
229 2012-07-08 14:35:03 <amiller> it's a merkle priority queue!
230 2012-07-08 14:35:30 <D34TH> does someone have a spare libdb compiled they can spare me
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257 2012-07-08 16:10:20 <sipa> hi TD
258 2012-07-08 16:10:28 <TD> hi
259 2012-07-08 16:11:12 <sipa> saw my mail about "ultraprune" ?
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268 2012-07-08 16:43:51 <TD> sipa: yeah. i didn't dig into it yet
269 2012-07-08 16:44:02 <TD> i'm not sure how it interacts with the leveldb work. it sounded more experimental
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271 2012-07-08 16:45:06 <sipa> TD: sure, but i'd like to see how well it performs in combination with leveldb
272 2012-07-08 16:45:15 <TD> cool
273 2012-07-08 16:45:54 <sipa> now, not sure how much room for improvement there still is; i currently -loadblock up 185k (before the last checkpoint) in 11 minutes with BDB on disk, and in 6 minutes with BDB on tmpfsa
274 2012-07-08 16:45:57 Clipse has joined
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276 2012-07-08 16:49:24 <sipa> i was wondering about an in-memory backend for the coins db
277 2012-07-08 16:49:49 <sipa> kyotocabinet has a dense in-memory database that supports variable-length records
278 2012-07-08 16:51:59 <TD> i'm not sure where the bottleneck is with your current system
279 2012-07-08 16:52:09 <TD> i found that even after disabling sig checking i/o did not become the bottlenec
280 2012-07-08 16:52:58 <sipa> with BDB on disk here, my CPU isn't maxed out
281 2012-07-08 16:55:15 <TD> yeah, i was seeing 100% cpu on one core with leveldb. seems like the work of doing all the data structure management, calculating the merkle roots, rummaging through hash maps etc was still enough to max out the core
282 2012-07-08 16:55:22 osxorgate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
283 2012-07-08 16:55:25 <TD> the background leveldb thread was seeing around 30% iowait time
284 2012-07-08 16:55:31 danbri has joined
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286 2012-07-08 16:56:35 <sipa> i've already eliminated all duplicate tx hash calculation, and did some optimization to reduce copying/allocation/...
287 2012-07-08 16:57:43 <TD> cool
288 2012-07-08 16:58:06 <TD> i didn't really look at where the time was going. a quick oprofile showed it spending a lot of time inside a hashmap<uint256, pair<something>>
289 2012-07-08 16:58:11 <TD> but i don't remember which map it was
290 2012-07-08 16:58:21 <TD> anyway, i still didn't make leveldb run on windows yet. that's mondays problem
291 2012-07-08 16:59:56 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
292 2012-07-08 17:00:52 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1569 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1569>
293 2012-07-08 17:02:47 <MC1984> corrupted blk index for no reason ffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
294 2012-07-08 17:03:02 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
295 2012-07-08 17:03:07 <MC1984> can i just get it to rebuild from the chain its already got
296 2012-07-08 17:03:22 <sipa> MC1984: yes
297 2012-07-08 17:03:30 <sipa> oh, not with 0.6.x i think
298 2012-07-08 17:03:52 <MC1984> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFff
299 2012-07-08 17:04:42 <MC1984> closed it last night, opened today
300 2012-07-08 17:04:47 <MC1984> "cannot load block index lol"
301 2012-07-08 17:07:12 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure the software did not say "lol".
302 2012-07-08 17:07:40 <gmaxwell> Can you pastbin the actual error it gives if you launch it from the terminal and the end of the debug.log?
303 2012-07-08 17:08:41 <MC1984> it didnt say lol but thats the way i read it in my head
304 2012-07-08 17:10:04 <MC1984> which one do i launch from terminal
305 2012-07-08 17:10:12 <MC1984> bitcoind?
306 2012-07-08 17:10:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've done several improvements to ultraprune; if you'd like to retry profiling it...
307 2012-07-08 17:10:30 <sipa> (or tell me how to make such fancy profile maps)
308 2012-07-08 17:11:08 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened issue 1570 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1570>
309 2012-07-08 17:12:24 dvide has quit ()
310 2012-07-08 17:13:22 <gmaxwell> Sure, I'll reprofile, but I'll also tell you how. Install kcachegrind,  run valgrind like valgrind --tool=callgrind --trace-children=yes --collect-jumps=yes  --separate-threads=yes  ~/bitcoin/src/bitcoind    it will write out a bunch of callgrind files when the program stops (or you break it).  Start kcachgrind in that directory.  It's a gui app, the images were the 'caller tree' or something like that.
311 2012-07-08 17:13:34 <MC1984> C:\Program Files\Bitcoin\daemon>bitcoind.exe
312 2012-07-08 17:13:35 <MC1984> Bitcoin: Error loading blkindex.dat
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315 2012-07-08 17:14:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: also, at higher optimization levels inlining and such will hide things strangly.
316 2012-07-08 17:16:06 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
317 2012-07-08 17:18:22 <MC1984> gmaxwell http://pastebin.com/kX18xrMv
318 2012-07-08 17:19:59 <luke-jr> MC1984: you sure you closed it cleanly?
319 2012-07-08 17:20:21 * luke-jr wonders why we load the wallet after block index fails
320 2012-07-08 17:20:46 <MC1984> i pressed X, window closed
321 2012-07-08 17:20:48 <MC1984> thats all i know
322 2012-07-08 17:20:53 <luke-jr> MC1984: and left the computer on?
323 2012-07-08 17:21:23 <MC1984> it got shut down, i cnt remember if it was straight after
324 2012-07-08 17:21:48 <luke-jr> until the system tray icon disappears, it's not done
325 2012-07-08 17:21:49 <gmaxwell> In any case, looks like the block file is failing a read.. so its either truncated or your OS is returning an error (disk problem). I thought truncation gave a different error though.
326 2012-07-08 17:21:56 <MC1984> will sleeping it by closing the lid while its running tend to fuck up the chain?
327 2012-07-08 17:22:07 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: or the data is wrong
328 2012-07-08 17:22:15 <luke-jr> MC1984: if it then loses power, maybe
329 2012-07-08 17:22:20 <gmaxwell> MC1984: sleeping it won't— if you actually come back.
330 2012-07-08 17:22:54 <MC1984> yeah i did, it got shut down the good way
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334 2012-07-08 17:25:13 <MC1984> so i cant just rebuild the index right? If i delete blkindex.dat, a new one gets started and it looks like it start chain download again, but the old blk001.dat is still there and appears to be having the data appended to it or somthing :/
335 2012-07-08 17:26:02 <luke-jr> MC1984: with 0.6 (I think) you can
336 2012-07-08 17:26:09 <luke-jr> or maybe it needs 0.7 :/
337 2012-07-08 17:26:25 <luke-jr> MC1984: rename blk0001.dat to somethign else, then delete blkindex
338 2012-07-08 17:26:35 <luke-jr> then start bitcoin-qt with -loadblock=renamedfile
339 2012-07-08 17:27:30 <luke-jr> meh, it's a 0.7 feature
340 2012-07-08 17:27:57 <luke-jr> MC1984: you can get my next-test build if you want, but it might be buggy - I've been getting a lot of crashes with the latest
341 2012-07-08 17:28:45 <luke-jr> or BlueMatt has master builds up somewhere
342 2012-07-08 17:28:52 <gmaxwell> MC1984: its not the index thats corrupt in any case. It's the end of the blocks file.  Though loadblock would work, if the version you're running had it.
343 2012-07-08 17:29:31 <MC1984> why cant it just chop off a few KB off the end and carry on :/
344 2012-07-08 17:29:42 <luke-jr> MC1984: 0.7 does I think
345 2012-07-08 17:30:12 <luke-jr> but it's also possible 0.6 added that and you're hitting some odd corner case
346 2012-07-08 17:30:22 <MC1984> screw it, what the eta on that levelDB thing? I think i will wait until then before trying again
347 2012-07-08 17:30:45 <MC1984> this SSD has been reamed enough for now
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350 2012-07-08 17:33:02 <luke-jr> MC1984: I'm not sure anyone's done anything more than talk about it yet - but I might just be behind
351 2012-07-08 17:33:49 <MC1984> doesnt someone maintain daily chain downloads?
352 2012-07-08 17:34:04 <MC1984> zip files
353 2012-07-08 17:34:23 <luke-jr> yes, but it's not secure to use those without -loadblock (which would also handle your blk0001.dat fine)
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355 2012-07-08 17:36:26 <MC1984> 7th winbldon for federer goddamn
356 2012-07-08 17:37:15 <gmaxwell> MC1984: 'what the eta on that levelDB thing' months.
357 2012-07-08 17:37:53 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: er, unless someone merged it when I wasn't looking 0.7 still does not recover from a truncated block file.
358 2012-07-08 17:38:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I thought -checkblocks would just invalidate problems it found?
359 2012-07-08 17:38:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: right, but in the trucated case it gets an exception trying to seek past the end and it bubbles up uncaught.
360 2012-07-08 17:38:53 <luke-jr> :/
361 2012-07-08 17:38:59 <gmaxwell> or did. I haven't checked in a while.
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371 2012-07-08 18:08:41 <CodesInChaos> does the official client use the standard randomized DSA (random `k`), or a deterministic variant?
372 2012-07-08 18:11:29 <Diablo-D3> oh, it just uses 3.
373 2012-07-08 18:11:42 <CodesInChaos> you're not sony
374 2012-07-08 18:12:05 <Diablo-D3> THANK GOD
375 2012-07-08 18:13:24 <CodesInChaos> But deterministic does not mean constant or guessable
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386 2012-07-08 18:42:42 <gmaxwell> CodesInChaos: no, we do not use the ed25519 like approach.
387 2012-07-08 18:42:59 <gmaxwell> CodesInChaos: use random k.
388 2012-07-08 18:43:09 <gmaxwell> (or rather openssl does)
389 2012-07-08 18:43:24 <CodesInChaos> ok, thanks
390 2012-07-08 18:44:38 <CodesInChaos> personally I prefer determinisitc approaches, because I'm paranoid about PRNGs
391 2012-07-08 18:45:22 <gmaxwell> In idealized bitcoin usage each key is only used once, however. Which helps in any case.
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410 2012-07-08 19:42:52 <amiller> gmaxwell, so with a bitcoin priority queue, you could schedule a transaction to be executed in a particular block, the target block number would be stored as a leading key in the merkle tree index
411 2012-07-08 19:43:36 <amiller> when validating a block, you have to check the left side of the tree for the smallest scheduled interaction, and if one exists at the current block number or below you apply it
412 2012-07-08 19:46:53 <gmaxwell> I follow what you're saying, but I don't see why it's interesting.
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414 2012-07-08 19:48:21 <gmaxwell> (also, generally being able to schedule things that have future computational/bandwidth/storage burden seems like it would have unwelcome economic behavior because it creates an additional kind of externalized cost for the party inserting the thing)
415 2012-07-08 19:48:39 <gmaxwell> Though indeed, storing an epoch for things that expire is interesting.
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420 2012-07-08 19:59:45 <amiller> well the computational bandwidth is advertised
421 2012-07-08 19:59:46 <amiller> er
422 2012-07-08 19:59:49 <amiller> amortized
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424 2012-07-08 20:00:04 <amiller> you only have to apply it once, even though the priority queue is checked each block
425 2012-07-08 20:00:19 <amiller> if the transaction is paid for ahead of time
426 2012-07-08 20:00:31 <amiller> then it's not any different than having an unspent tx lying around
427 2012-07-08 20:00:51 <amiller> i mean it puts no additional computational load than an additional txout
428 2012-07-08 20:02:09 <gmaxwell> I didn't mean maintaining the queue. I meant having to actually do something with it when the time comes. If you don't have to do something with it, then it has no protocol impact.
429 2012-07-08 20:02:49 <amiller> but what you have to do with it is process it just like a transaction
430 2012-07-08 20:03:44 <amiller> lets say i create a new time delay txoutput that activates 10 blocks later
431 2012-07-08 20:04:11 <amiller> i'd basically have to place a transaction fee on it ahead of time
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433 2012-07-08 20:04:58 <amiller> there's no additional computation besides what there would have been if i just created a normal txout rather than a time-delay txout
434 2012-07-08 20:05:05 <gmaxwell> I suppose. I'm not seeing the pratical advantage over nlock time, when then requires no normative handling (you can handle future locked txn however you like)
435 2012-07-08 20:05:52 <amiller> well for one thing you can guarantee that something will be executed at block B and no later
436 2012-07-08 20:06:23 <amiller> that's a little bit analogous to how the merkle search tree lets you prove that an element isn't in the set
437 2012-07-08 20:08:18 <gmaxwell> but the availablity of a txout is hardly 'execution'. If a txout becomes available in a tree and no one redeems it, does it make a sound?
438 2012-07-08 20:09:16 <sipa> it says "ni!"
439 2012-07-08 20:09:18 <amiller> can ascii bernanke testify
440 2012-07-08 20:09:49 <amiller> so it would make it easier to compose these if you can guarantee something happens on a time and no later
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442 2012-07-08 20:10:03 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin intentionally doesn't make expiring transaction possible because doing so would make exclusions proftable. And if you use this to expire and avoid that risk you still have the coins get burnt if they're only available in some particular block.
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446 2012-07-08 20:13:53 <amiller> not if you use this mechanism
447 2012-07-08 20:14:16 <amiller> because 'only available in some particular block' means that it _will_ occur in that block, normatively, at no additional amortized cost
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449 2012-07-08 20:15:08 <amiller> suppose i want to send you some money as a gift but i'm afraid you're going to lose your public key
450 2012-07-08 20:15:28 <amiller> if i send it to you like normal, and you lost your key, then it's burnt forever
451 2012-07-08 20:16:06 <amiller> but if there's a trigger to send it back to me, then if you can't claim it it will be returned to me
452 2012-07-08 20:16:20 <amiller> if you do claim it, then you remove that trigger from the tree at the same time
453 2012-07-08 20:16:35 <amiller> the trigger is 1 operation in either case, so i'd initially pay an ordinary transaction fee for it ahead of tim
454 2012-07-08 20:16:51 <amiller> twice the transaction fee, once for inserting the trigger into the tree, and the second time for either removing it or applying it
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456 2012-07-08 20:17:53 <quintopia> amiller: easier than "until a particular time" would be "until a particular block"
457 2012-07-08 20:17:58 <amiller> that isn't a really compelling motivation but i think it's a useful example of how it works
458 2012-07-08 20:18:05 <amiller> yeah i assume that time is measured in blocks
459 2012-07-08 20:18:13 <amiller> i've started scheduling my appointments based on the blockchain
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461 2012-07-08 20:18:59 <amiller> "i'll be there in about 9 blocks"
462 2012-07-08 20:20:26 <amiller> so this is the opposite of expiring transactions, since it's delay-activated transactions
463 2012-07-08 20:21:21 <amiller> it solves the problem of exclusion by adding a new normative step (which it's just another key in the merkle tree)
464 2012-07-08 20:21:26 <gmaxwell> amiller: but as a miner it's in my interest for that coin to be burnt. So I just don't process your redemption unless you use a higher than normal fee.
465 2012-07-08 20:22:16 <amiller> just assume the fee is paid in advance and gets given to the miner whether someone redeems it early or the delay triggers it
466 2012-07-08 20:22:53 <gmaxwell> Ah I misread you. above. In any case. I can just write you a valid transaction, without broadcasting.. and give it to you. You announce it when you decide to spend it.
467 2012-07-08 20:23:04 <gmaxwell> 100 fold complexity reduction.
468 2012-07-08 20:23:21 <amiller> but then i could also spend it out from under you
469 2012-07-08 20:24:36 <gmaxwell> amiller: until the unannoucned txn is mined it can go either way. once its mined it can't.  This isn't any different under your proposal.
470 2012-07-08 20:25:01 <gmaxwell> Because the miner can selectively do whatever it wants at the magic block— send it to me or you.
471 2012-07-08 20:25:42 <gmaxwell> You've narrowed the window, but I think its a distinction without a difference.
472 2012-07-08 20:25:48 <amiller> if you wait until the T-1 block to announce the transaction
473 2012-07-08 20:25:55 <amiller> then yeah miners can influence the outcome one way or the other
474 2012-07-08 20:26:04 <amiller> but if you announce it with a few blocks to spare
475 2012-07-08 20:26:33 <amiller> it's still in each miner's best interest to include the redemption transaction rather than wait for the time trigger
476 2012-07-08 20:29:10 <gmaxwell> why won't they just reinsert the trigger in the next block?
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478 2012-07-08 20:32:36 <gmaxwell> In any case, I'm still struggling to see the actual problem this solves over what you can do with nlocktime and out-of-chain transactions.  Generally for refunds what you'd do is I pay you X -> (payment criteria) or (me+you),  and then before I tell you that txn I make you sign a me+you refund transaction with a future nlock time.
479 2012-07-08 20:33:23 <gmaxwell> If the payment criteria are met before the nlocktime happens you use it to redeem the payment.  Otherwise I announce the pregenerated refund transaction when the locktime hits.
480 2012-07-08 20:37:46 <amiller> hm, i guess i can't even think of a really compelling example for now.
481 2012-07-08 20:38:17 <amiller> it sure seems useful though.
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488 2012-07-08 20:51:33 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo reopened issue 1452 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1452>
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