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 20 2012-07-09 01:09:53 <BlueMatt> yay! ultraprune-ing bitcoinj working...next step more unit tests, then full script verification, then....mining
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 23 2012-07-09 01:16:28 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD I know its not exactly the purpose of bitcoinj, but me+boredom doesnt go well so I wrote a ultraprune-style BlockChain into bitcoinj...
 24 2012-07-09 01:16:28 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 30 2012-07-09 02:02:55 <mcorlett> Hello, is it true that an attacker that controls more than 50% of the network's computing power can reverse transactions that he sends?
 31 2012-07-09 02:03:33 <luke-jr> mcorlett: yes
 32 2012-07-09 02:03:36 <gmaxwell> mcorlett: Yes, subject to limitations.
 33 2012-07-09 02:04:22 <gmaxwell> (e.g. he can't reverse a transaction unboundly far in the past without equally unbounded work in private)
 34 2012-07-09 02:04:57 <mcorlett> Thank you, gentlemen.
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 39 2012-07-09 02:28:04 <gmaxwell> oh, people on the forums... : "So, my client isn't able to get the block chain because of how I set my clock on my computer (I think it's crappy, but I don't care)."
 40 2012-07-09 02:29:09 <Karmaon> Bitcoin world problems
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 51 2012-07-09 03:00:14 <setkeh> !help ban
 52 2012-07-09 03:00:14 <gribble> Error: There is no command "ban".
 53 2012-07-09 03:00:22 <setkeh> oops wc lol srry
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 95 2012-07-09 05:13:43 <copumpkin> is there a description of the coin-picking algorithm that picks which source addresses to use for a given transaction?
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101 2012-07-09 05:22:00 <luke-jr> copumpkin: it doesn't have anything to do with addresses right now
102 2012-07-09 05:23:08 <copumpkin> well, say I have a few smallish balances in my wallet now and will get a moderately sized transaction of X coins, and intend to send those X to another address
103 2012-07-09 05:23:25 <copumpkin> will the client reach into my smaller balances or is it trying to keep as few inputs as possible?
104 2012-07-09 05:24:10 <luke-jr> there are no balances, just coins
105 2012-07-09 05:24:27 <luke-jr> it will choose the older coins first, for the most part
106 2012-07-09 05:24:36 <luke-jr> if you wait for the big one to mature 6 blocks, it might use it
107 2012-07-09 05:24:50 <luke-jr> if you use next-test, you can use Coin Control to restrict coin selection by source address
108 2012-07-09 05:25:04 <copumpkin> Coin Control? is that a different client?
109 2012-07-09 05:25:30 <phantomcircuit> it's a patch
110 2012-07-09 05:25:35 <copumpkin> oh
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112 2012-07-09 05:26:45 <phantomcircuit> i love all the people making threats in the bitcoinica thread
113 2012-07-09 05:26:48 <luke-jr> copumpkin: next-test is a 0.7 preview with a lot of experimental patches merged: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=89099
114 2012-07-09 05:26:57 <phantomcircuit> there is literally no way for that to help them
115 2012-07-09 05:27:20 <phantomcircuit> either i believe their threat in which case i call the cops and they never get anything
116 2012-07-09 05:27:26 <phantomcircuit> or i dont and it just makes me annoyed
117 2012-07-09 05:27:40 <phantomcircuit> people who dont understand game theory are the bane of my existence
118 2012-07-09 05:27:44 <copumpkin> lol
119 2012-07-09 05:27:58 <copumpkin> what is happening with that debacle these days?
120 2012-07-09 05:28:05 <copumpkin> I stopped following
121 2012-07-09 05:28:17 <phantomcircuit> jokers with threats
122 2012-07-09 05:28:48 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: the deposited funds are currently with pirate growing until everyone can be paid back.
123 2012-07-09 05:28:50 <copumpkin> luke-jr: I see. No mac builds I assume?
124 2012-07-09 05:28:51 * gmaxwell ducks
125 2012-07-09 05:28:56 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: hah I bet
126 2012-07-09 05:28:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, loooooooooolllllllllllllll
127 2012-07-09 05:29:03 <luke-jr> copumpkin: only bitcoind for 0.5 and 0.6
128 2012-07-09 05:29:06 <phantomcircuit> people dont really realize just how much work it is
129 2012-07-09 05:29:23 <phantomcircuit> paying back a claim takes between 1 minute and several hours
130 2012-07-09 05:29:25 <gmaxwell> "an alchemical brew of intermingled conspiracy theories"
131 2012-07-09 05:29:26 <copumpkin> phantomcircuit: you think it'll come back someday, or was it just a crock of shit?
132 2012-07-09 05:29:43 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, well im running this fucked up horror show now
133 2012-07-09 05:29:46 <phantomcircuit> it will come back
134 2012-07-09 05:29:54 <phantomcircuit> none of zhou's code will be used
135 2012-07-09 05:30:01 <luke-jr> copumpkin: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=83743 is my hope for getting Mac builds
136 2012-07-09 05:30:21 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: as a legit site, or another bucket shop?
137 2012-07-09 05:30:30 <phantomcircuit> it took me a grand total of 3 hours to take my bitcoinica balance from 0.1337 to 23k btc using various race conditions in the original code base
138 2012-07-09 05:31:01 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, afaikt it wasn't a bucket shop except for when it got hacked and all of a sudden was short
139 2012-07-09 05:31:08 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: the coin selector uses a subset sum solver to try to minimize the excess input.. so it tends to avoid using extra inputs. But it's totally blind to the fact that some inputs come from the same address.
140 2012-07-09 05:31:11 <copumpkin> luke-jr: oh, I forgot about that
141 2012-07-09 05:31:16 <copumpkin> yay subset-sum
142 2012-07-09 05:31:30 <gmaxwell> (because there is a weak assumption that people will use unique addresses per transaction)
143 2012-07-09 05:32:06 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: oh? gmaxwell was under the impression it was and I generally trust him on these things :p
144 2012-07-09 05:32:20 <copumpkin> luke-jr: how much are you looking for to get started on the Mac work?
145 2012-07-09 05:32:40 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the way it worked was that the net positions of all the users was calculated every like 10 seconds and if the net position was out of whack with the actual assets by more than a fixed amount a hedge order would be placed
146 2012-07-09 05:33:06 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: and there's no way I can force the client right now to avoid the other sources?
147 2012-07-09 05:33:12 <copumpkin> I guess I could temporarily send them off to a different wallet :)
148 2012-07-09 05:33:37 <phantomcircuit> afaict zhou made a series of decisions out of pure lazyness which made the entire thing work
149 2012-07-09 05:33:43 <gmaxwell> The existance of hedging doesn't itself make it not a bucketshop. Though if the hedging really was 100% then it would be mostly not one.
150 2012-07-09 05:34:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the hedging was on the delta between net positions and the calculated expected assets
151 2012-07-09 05:34:15 <luke-jr> copumpkin: well, with 7.7 BTC more, I could do an hour at my usual (Bitcoin/open source) rate; I'm SURE it will take much more than an hour, but that seems somewhere to start
152 2012-07-09 05:34:22 <phantomcircuit> which wasn't always 100% right due to various bugs (and people stealing)
153 2012-07-09 05:34:46 <gmaxwell> Zhou refused to answer direct questions about the degree of hedging. Also, even 100% itself ignores the liquidity risk.
154 2012-07-09 05:35:14 <copumpkin> luke-jr: sent :) good luck!
155 2012-07-09 05:35:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the hedge was only on the difference between all the users net positions and the calculated expected assets
156 2012-07-09 05:35:39 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: stealing was going on for a while unnoticed? :o
157 2012-07-09 05:35:46 <luke-jr> copumpkin: thanks
158 2012-07-09 05:35:49 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah
159 2012-07-09 05:35:53 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ouch!
160 2012-07-09 05:35:55 <gmaxwell> The real question is are the positions backed by actual assets. Now the externally visible evidence suggests they were not ... because people aren't paid back. But there are obvious other reasons for that.
161 2012-07-09 05:35:56 <copumpkin> :/
162 2012-07-09 05:36:03 <phantomcircuit> mostly i think it was just people not noticing small amounts though
163 2012-07-09 05:36:13 <phantomcircuit> there was someone who had leverage of 500x
164 2012-07-09 05:36:18 <phantomcircuit> that was uh
165 2012-07-09 05:36:27 <phantomcircuit> but his account was only -1.50
166 2012-07-09 05:36:35 <phantomcircuit> so i guess that didn't work as well as he thought it would
167 2012-07-09 05:36:36 <copumpkin> wow
168 2012-07-09 05:36:58 <gmaxwell> Also, the lack in change in MTGOX volume suggests to me that 'calculated expected assets' might have been a bit optimistic!
169 2012-07-09 05:37:23 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hah.  "haxor 500x leverage ... loses 500x the funds"
170 2012-07-09 05:37:43 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there was a db variable which would be incremented and decremented when a user deposited/withdraw/liquidated/straight traded
171 2012-07-09 05:37:53 <phantomcircuit> so it totally had no idea about any fuck ups
172 2012-07-09 05:38:01 <gmaxwell> crazy!
173 2012-07-09 05:38:12 <phantomcircuit> but actually that wasn't so bad because it meant when fuck ups happened there wasn't an instant buy of 25k btc
174 2012-07-09 05:39:18 <gmaxwell> it's not unusal for bugs/flaws to compensiate for each other.
175 2012-07-09 05:39:24 <gmaxwell> The ones that don't get noticed and fixed.
176 2012-07-09 05:39:44 <phantomcircuit> so assuming nobody was stealing (heh yeah right) the total liabilities/total assets would match if all the positions were liquidated simultaneously
177 2012-07-09 05:40:24 <phantomcircuit> which is something a bucket shop cant do
178 2012-07-09 05:41:01 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: but 'liquidated simultaneously' isn't the most interesting mode.  And balance isn't a constant because the short positions have caps.
179 2012-07-09 05:41:06 <phantomcircuit> the entire codebase was nothing but fuckups of design and just not having any clue
180 2012-07-09 05:41:20 <gmaxwell> E.g. what would happen if the btc/$ rate on mtgox stepped to $1000 and never moved from there again?
181 2012-07-09 05:41:23 <phantomcircuit> like zhou was relying on user.lock! to serialize access to various things
182 2012-07-09 05:41:31 <phantomcircuit> except he was calling it outside of a transaction
183 2012-07-09 05:41:34 <phantomcircuit> so it doesn't do anything
184 2012-07-09 05:42:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, honestly if that happened rapidly bitcoinica would have just wiped out all the shorts and the resulting profit would have covered any loss from slow trade reaction
185 2012-07-09 05:43:32 <gmaxwell> uh. Well thats a question that can be answered, .. but it isn't a universal truth.  At the limit (replace $1000 with as large as you like) thats only true if you're not canceling any shorts against the longs.
186 2012-07-09 05:44:05 <gmaxwell> and so we're back the the core definition of a bucket shop: the positions are not asset backed. There is _some_ increase in asset price which is uncoverable.
187 2012-07-09 05:44:50 <gmaxwell> And the customers had no way to reason about the risk. E.g. perhaps there were always enough short assets compared to the long positions (e.g. 100:1) that any realistic increase in btc price could be covered.
188 2012-07-09 05:44:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no all the positions were asset backed
189 2012-07-09 05:45:52 <phantomcircuit> actually sort of
190 2012-07-09 05:45:56 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: for that to be true the short underlying assets had to outnumber the long positions * their leverage.
191 2012-07-09 05:46:01 <phantomcircuit> there was a race condition that could cause that to not be true
192 2012-07-09 05:46:19 <gmaxwell> (you'd have to have 100x the value in short positions to long)
193 2012-07-09 05:46:26 <phantomcircuit> well no not really
194 2012-07-09 05:46:40 <phantomcircuit> one person short really does cancel out one person long
195 2012-07-09 05:47:12 <phantomcircuit> but it depends largely on the order of operations
196 2012-07-09 05:47:21 <phantomcircuit> and this is where it gets probabilistic
197 2012-07-09 05:47:39 <phantomcircuit> the liquidation logic and the hedging logic ran parallel to each other
198 2012-07-09 05:47:43 <phantomcircuit> as separate jobs
199 2012-07-09 05:47:53 <gmaxwell> just assume the bitcoin price goes to infinite in one step. How does that leave people?
200 2012-07-09 05:48:10 <gmaxwell> The hedging is irrelevant because it can't move fast enough for a infinite step change.
201 2012-07-09 05:48:22 <gmaxwell> (or at least the reaction of hedging, prior hedging counts)
202 2012-07-09 05:48:38 <phantomcircuit> no but it can
203 2012-07-09 05:49:16 <gmaxwell> It's only safe if the short deposits (1/10th the postions) plus hedge purchased coins are greater than the leveraged positions (10x leverage value).
204 2012-07-09 05:49:51 <gmaxwell> And thats a heck of a lot of hedging. I'm skeptical that this was happening. In fact, I think it would be arguably irrational to run the business so safely.
205 2012-07-09 05:50:06 <phantomcircuit> lol it was
206 2012-07-09 05:50:16 <gmaxwell> (simply because if the customers actually cared they'd be demanding proof of it too!)
207 2012-07-09 05:50:18 <phantomcircuit> the mtgox btc account history file is like 15+MB
208 2012-07-09 05:52:22 <gmaxwell> It would have been interesting to seralize and delay trades which would take the system out of the fully backed zone until the hedge transactions made it through.
209 2012-07-09 05:53:29 <gmaxwell> (or more than X over, where X is the amount of the operators coin they're willing to risk on fringe events)
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218 2012-07-09 06:15:09 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the magic number is 100% change
219 2012-07-09 06:15:26 <phantomcircuit> i think
220 2012-07-09 06:15:32 <phantomcircuit> i'd have to look at the numbers again
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222 2012-07-09 06:16:10 <phantomcircuit> there are more complex risk models you can employ that take into account the liquidation point
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224 2012-07-09 06:21:20 <phantomcircuit> blargh
225 2012-07-09 06:21:33 <phantomcircuit> there is no way to have qemu start vnc after the vm has started
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228 2012-07-09 06:22:27 <bonks> if i have two clients, both using the same and only node (using connect=), will their local blockchains be identical?
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297 2012-07-09 09:43:44 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1571 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1571>
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319 2012-07-09 11:45:32 <drizztbsd> hi, does bitcoin 0.6.3 works with new boost (filesystem v3)?
320 2012-07-09 11:46:13 <sipa> yes
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322 2012-07-09 11:51:02 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1572 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1572>
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349 2012-07-09 13:52:09 <gmaxwell> I strongly disapprove of the addition of closed webservices and unreviewable propritary clients to the bitcoin.org site.
350 2012-07-09 13:52:24 Turingi has joined
351 2012-07-09 13:52:28 <gmaxwell> Does anyone think I'm crazy in holding this position?
352 2012-07-09 13:53:02 <copumpkin> which one are you referring to?
353 2012-07-09 13:53:32 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: the bottom half of the clients page. http://bitcoin.org/clients.html
354 2012-07-09 13:53:44 <copumpkin> oh
355 2012-07-09 13:54:07 <_dr> I think no sane person will want to have closed source handling its bitcoins :)
356 2012-07-09 13:54:08 <copumpkin> some of blockchain.info is on github
357 2012-07-09 13:54:13 <copumpkin> but not all of it
358 2012-07-09 13:54:33 <copumpkin> enough for me to see it's all done in java :)
359 2012-07-09 13:54:52 <gmaxwell> I'm starting to think we should remove the clients page. This is just going to be a source of disputes.
360 2012-07-09 13:55:12 <copumpkin> how are people supposed to know about them then?
361 2012-07-09 13:55:22 p0s has joined
362 2012-07-09 13:55:50 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: The same way you or I know about them— which would also give them an oppturnity to find out about the risks in them.
363 2012-07-09 13:56:30 <copumpkin> I guess :)
364 2012-07-09 13:56:36 <copumpkin> bbiab
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369 2012-07-09 14:10:06 <Anduck> hi
370 2012-07-09 14:10:16 <helo> if there was ever a client listed on bitcoin.org that contained a backdoor or something, it would essentially validate all of the claims that bitcoin security is unworkable
371 2012-07-09 14:10:17 <Anduck> how do i get network block count with bitcoind?
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373 2012-07-09 14:11:25 <Anduck> getblockcount replies with loaded block count
374 2012-07-09 14:11:42 <Anduck> but how can i see the overall block count.. that how much i need to load
375 2012-07-09 14:11:56 <sipa> it's not exposed, and it is a guess only
376 2012-07-09 14:12:00 <sipa> based on what other nodes say
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378 2012-07-09 14:12:08 <Anduck> how can i see wut other nodes say?
379 2012-07-09 14:12:18 <Anduck> how does bitcoin-qt know whats the block count in network?
380 2012-07-09 14:12:47 <sipa> during the protocol negotiation, both sides send a "version" message, with their current number of blocks
381 2012-07-09 14:12:51 <sipa> (among other things)
382 2012-07-09 14:13:10 <sipa> bitcoin-qt uses the median of these reports as a guess for the actual number of blocks
383 2012-07-09 14:13:17 <Anduck> is there a way to read it with bitcoind
384 2012-07-09 14:13:17 <Anduck> ?
385 2012-07-09 14:13:22 <sipa> no
386 2012-07-09 14:13:44 <Anduck> =(
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388 2012-07-09 14:13:59 <sipa> you shouldn't depend on it, except for a progressbar or something for end-users, imho
389 2012-07-09 14:15:28 <Anduck> thats what i am looking for
390 2012-07-09 14:15:31 <Anduck> but its not that important.
391 2012-07-09 14:15:43 <sipa> 0.7.0 will have a getpeerinfo
392 2012-07-09 14:15:59 <sipa> and that will report for each connected peer its claimed number of blocks
393 2012-07-09 14:16:12 <sipa> (at connection time, which may be outdated by the time you request it)
394 2012-07-09 14:16:55 <Anduck> yea
395 2012-07-09 14:17:01 <Anduck> well, thx for answering
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397 2012-07-09 14:17:03 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I don't think you're crazy to insist on open source for the clients page.  And I tend to agree that a clients page will just turn into a big arm-wrestling mess
398 2012-07-09 14:19:02 <gmaxwell> I reverted the recent changes and threw up some critiera. We'll see where it goes.  My instinct when the page was created was that it was going to be more trouble than it was worth, I would have been glad to be wrong on that one.
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400 2012-07-09 14:20:44 <sipa> i was wondering about a future mode of operation, where 4 different best-block pointers are kept instead of 1
401 2012-07-09 14:21:33 <sipa> 1) latest/best header downloaded connected to the block tree, and not known to be invalid
402 2012-07-09 14:21:48 <sipa> 2) latest/best block downloaded, not known to be invalid
403 2012-07-09 14:22:11 <sipa> 3) current state of the block index (having ConnectBlock() applied)
404 2012-07-09 14:22:27 <sipa> 4) point up to which signatures are verified
405 2012-07-09 14:23:05 <sipa> all 4 can essentially be separate processes (with 4 even being multi-threaded)
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407 2012-07-09 14:23:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: so one issue(?) with ultraprune's current data structures is that I think it's pretty vulnerable to corruption, esp corruption from non-atomic updates on power failure.  Maintaining multiple heads might help with that, because you could have a lagging head which you switch to.
408 2012-07-09 14:24:15 <sipa> and you could choose to stop before the last step (eg stop at 1 if you only need to know the current best, and trust highest mining power), stop at 2 if you only want to be an archive, ...
409 2012-07-09 14:24:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, the (recent) blocks are still available and there certainly are some consistency checks possible
410 2012-07-09 14:24:56 <sipa> (though indeed less than before)
411 2012-07-09 14:25:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, but for example if you manage to get the txout updates to disk, but not the undo logs.
412 2012-07-09 14:26:42 <sipa> good point
413 2012-07-09 14:27:05 <sipa> it'd be nice if there was a cheap way to retain snapshots of earlier coin db's
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415 2012-07-09 14:28:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: at least code-wise, undo logs are written before any permanent db modifications are done
416 2012-07-09 14:29:07 <sipa> but corruption is always possible of course
417 2012-07-09 14:29:47 <gmaxwell> right, but no guarentee the system hasn't done something stupid under you. Especially if you're not fsyncing().
418 2012-07-09 14:30:12 <sipa> that said, if an undo log is unavailable (or corrupted, there are some consistency checks), failure will occur when disconnecting a block
419 2012-07-09 14:30:26 <sipa> and the last db modification made is updating the best block pointer
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421 2012-07-09 14:30:51 <sipa> so if everything succeeds except that, it will fail before of a BIP30 violation when reconnecting the partially-connected block
422 2012-07-09 14:31:55 <sipa> but it's probably good to try to reason what effects a randomly corrupted database would have
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424 2012-07-09 14:35:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC someone had a special block device that basically acted as a log of FS block updates, so you could basically simulate a power outage plus block tear at every point along the operation if you wanted to.
425 2012-07-09 14:35:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: LLVM has snapshots
426 2012-07-09 14:36:10 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, I agree that linking to proprietary clients is not a good idea unless you hold half of the key necessary to spend all your coins in a floss one
427 2012-07-09 14:36:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: why it was added to that page without discussion and without a pull request, I dont know
428 2012-07-09 14:37:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: that said, undo log files need an fdatasync() or equivalent, indeed
429 2012-07-09 14:39:23 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the flip side of pull requests is that we also need to be diligent in processing them.. the addition of the bitcoin mag pull has been sitting around for a while.
430 2012-07-09 14:39:48 <gmaxwell> (I haven't commented on it because I've yet to see the publication, at least Matthew is saying all the right stuff)
431 2012-07-09 14:39:54 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression the addition of bitcoin mag pull was going to wait for a few issues and more verification before pulling
432 2012-07-09 14:40:16 <BlueMatt> or, that was the sense I got from you, and afair you are the only one who had any opinion when it was brought up here
433 2012-07-09 14:41:25 <gmaxwell> Well I just don't have an opinion because I haven't seen it. I was hoping people who'd seen it would pipe up.
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435 2012-07-09 14:42:18 <BlueMatt> anyway, the bitcoin.org pulls tend to get processed pretty quickly (rarely wait longer than a week for anything that would need discussion) so I dont think thats a huge issue for the website
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438 2012-07-09 14:46:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: how do you currently handle smaller-work-than-head forks when you get them in ultraprune?
439 2012-07-09 14:46:30 <BlueMatt> in terms of tx connection, that is
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441 2012-07-09 14:48:41 <gmaxwell> My ultraprune callgrind is up to height=186245  (I started it when sipa asked about profiling again. 0_o )
442 2012-07-09 14:57:35 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: Last URI pull is causing a QT build error on my Mac:  /opt/local/include/boost/interprocess/ipc/message_queue.hpp:339: error: no matching function for call to ‘get_rounded_size(long unsigned int, const unsigned int&)’
443 2012-07-09 14:57:54 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm?
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445 2012-07-09 14:58:17 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: remind me what's up with URI support on the Mac?  Can I just put back in the #ifdefs so that code isn't called on the Mac?
446 2012-07-09 14:58:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yep, its currently never called, so ifdefing it out should work no problem
447 2012-07-09 14:58:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: nothing changed in block downloading, only in block connection (making them part of the best chain)
448 2012-07-09 15:00:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: so it took a day to callgrind up to that point...?
449 2012-07-09 15:00:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: does ultraprune store full blocks for undo, or just a list of tx outs created/destroyed?
450 2012-07-09 15:01:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: it stores blocks, and an additional undo file
451 2012-07-09 15:01:29 <sipa> the undo file just contains a list of amount/height/scriptpubkey of txouts destroyed
452 2012-07-09 15:01:46 <BlueMatt> wait...what? It thought it stored only set of txouts unspent, never full blocks, except for undo stuff
453 2012-07-09 15:01:54 <sipa> yes
454 2012-07-09 15:01:56 <sipa> exactly
455 2012-07-09 15:02:02 <sipa> ah
456 2012-07-09 15:02:40 <sipa> no, it has full blocks available for reorg/rescan/serving
457 2012-07-09 15:02:53 <sipa> but it does not require *all* full blocks to be available
458 2012-07-09 15:03:03 <BlueMatt> so undo file == full block?
459 2012-07-09 15:03:06 <sipa> no
460 2012-07-09 15:03:13 <sipa> the undo files are separate files
461 2012-07-09 15:03:25 <sipa> to undo, you need the block + undo file
462 2012-07-09 15:03:32 <BlueMatt> oh...
463 2012-07-09 15:03:39 <sipa> you could create a larger undo file that does not need the block itself
464 2012-07-09 15:03:52 <BlueMatt> could you not use the info in the block to not use the undo file?
465 2012-07-09 15:04:11 <sipa> ?
466 2012-07-09 15:04:16 <sipa> the block itself does not know the txouts that were consumed
467 2012-07-09 15:04:25 <sipa> only the outpoints
468 2012-07-09 15:04:36 <BlueMatt> the list of txins is the list of txouts consumed, or?
469 2012-07-09 15:05:02 <sipa> yes, but you need the actual amounts and scripts (and for coinbases, heights) of the consumed txouts
470 2012-07-09 15:05:06 <sipa> in order to restore the coin db
471 2012-07-09 15:05:22 <BlueMatt> ah, yea, yea
472 2012-07-09 15:05:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: in case you missed it, last night I finished getting bitcoinj to implement ultraprune, so I was asking to see if you did it differently
473 2012-07-09 15:05:46 <sipa> i noticed :)
474 2012-07-09 15:06:35 <sipa> make sure you keep all necessary information around, should you ever want to consider full block validation
475 2012-07-09 15:06:51 <BlueMatt> yea, Im working on full block validation now
476 2012-07-09 15:07:28 <sipa> for each tx, you need txid -> (bitmask of available txouts, amounts/scripts for available txouts, coinbase yes/no, height)
477 2012-07-09 15:07:40 <sipa> height is only really necessary if it's a coinbase
478 2012-07-09 15:07:55 <BlueMatt> the way I have it now: storage of full blocks is /either/ the full set of txouts spent/created or the full set of txes, where the full set of txes is stored is only used in case you get a fork'd block that we dont bother connecting yet...and also all block headers
479 2012-07-09 15:08:04 <BlueMatt> so Ive got all of that
480 2012-07-09 15:08:19 <BlueMatt> though I dont do it by txid, I index by txid:index
481 2012-07-09 15:08:43 <sipa> currently, txids are almost 40% of the storage
482 2012-07-09 15:08:59 <sipa> so it's worthwhile trying to minimize duplicating them :)
483 2012-07-09 15:09:34 <BlueMatt> yea...the current implementation isnt hugely efficient in storage space, Im gonna work on that after I actually write a disk-backed implementation of the db...
484 2012-07-09 15:10:05 <BlueMatt> that said, thanks to java's wonderfully aweful all-objects-are-essentially-pointers "feature" I dont double-store any hashes
485 2012-07-09 15:10:18 <BlueMatt> in memory, that is
486 2012-07-09 15:12:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: just keeping the serialized coins (which are compact and per-tx) in a txid-to-coins std::map, costs around 300 MB
487 2012-07-09 15:12:14 <sipa> in Java i guess it will be even more
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489 2012-07-09 15:12:57 <BlueMatt> I have to admit I have yet to actually import the full chain, Ive only been using the unit tests already in bitcoinj and adding more specific testing
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491 2012-07-09 15:14:38 <sipa> iirc i experiemented with self-contained undo files, but those were around 30% of the block's size, instead of 12%
492 2012-07-09 15:15:33 <sipa> and as you need the actual blocks anyway to do a full disconnect including moving disconnected transactions to the memory pool, i figured it was better not to duplicate that 20%
493 2012-07-09 15:16:40 <BlueMatt> yea...putting disconnected txs back into mempool is the only issue, otherwise not storing the full txes is nice
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495 2012-07-09 15:18:46 <sipa> next i'm going to implement a memory-backend for coindb, to see how fast we can get without any DB management at all
496 2012-07-09 15:18:57 <sipa> and also to be able to calculate merkle-root hashes of the coindb
497 2012-07-09 15:19:26 <sipa> if those can be compared to coindb's extracted from pre-ultraprune code, we have an excellent test :)
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501 2012-07-09 15:42:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/ultraprune_profile2.png Looks much nicer now. Most cycles appear to be spent on sha256 and ecdsa.
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503 2012-07-09 15:43:37 <gmaxwell> looks like it's losing something vaguely like 15% on copies and heap twiddling
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509 2012-07-09 16:02:37 <gmaxwell> :-/ And now Amir commited a change to make the client order display 'random' (per run of jekyll, not per load) so now the reference client won't be listed first most of the time.
510 2012-07-09 16:03:15 <gmaxwell> (and isn't now)
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514 2012-07-09 16:10:17 <BlueMatt> hey TD
515 2012-07-09 16:11:02 <TD> hey. just saw your message. very cool! in a meeting right now
516 2012-07-09 16:11:06 <TD> available to talk in 20-30 mins
517 2012-07-09 16:12:03 <TD> btw, if you're bored, see my post in the dev forum
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548 2012-07-09 17:40:39 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
549 2012-07-09 17:40:42 <Diablo-D3> who runs devcoin?
550 2012-07-09 17:42:09 <luke-jr> I think coblee runs that too
551 2012-07-09 17:43:04 <Diablo-D3> I know you do
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580 2012-07-09 18:55:34 Venomm has joined
581 2012-07-09 18:55:47 <Venomm>  just donated a bunch of money to a super cool and secret bitcoin project
582 2012-07-09 18:56:00 <Venomm> help me replace the money by donating as much btc as possible to the following address
583 2012-07-09 18:56:01 <Venomm> 1G6Fp2oEDWdnRmLBRm32AuES9VYudE2ZLd
584 2012-07-09 18:56:04 Venomm has quit (Client Quit)
585 2012-07-09 18:56:12 * Diablo-D3 just raises eyebrow
586 2012-07-09 18:56:17 <luke-jr> …
587 2012-07-09 18:56:29 <BlueMatt> wow...because that is going to work
588 2012-07-09 18:56:47 <TD> lol
589 2012-07-09 18:56:53 <lianj> give me a testnet address..
590 2012-07-09 18:57:02 <luke-jr> I did that too, but the super cool and secret project I donated to is far more super cool and secret. Reimburse me at 3P14159f73E4gFr7JterCCQh9QjiTjiZrG
591 2012-07-09 18:57:04 <luke-jr> :P
592 2012-07-09 18:57:29 <gmaxwell> I actually donated money to the set of all possible super cool and secret projects …
593 2012-07-09 18:57:38 <Diablo-D3> I invested a bunch of money in DMC. It is hyper cool, but not secret. Give me your money.
594 2012-07-09 18:57:50 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: You could have just used the last sentence there.
595 2012-07-09 18:57:53 <luke-jr> I invested money in DMC before Diablo-D3!
596 2012-07-09 18:57:58 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: LOL
597 2012-07-09 18:58:02 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: ... .....
598 2012-07-09 18:58:04 <moartr4dez> that's so super cool that I'll donate to you in a secret way that you can't even tell how I did it or if I did.
599 2012-07-09 18:58:09 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: goddamn you.
600 2012-07-09 18:58:20 <Diablo-D3> moartr4dez: but what if I open the box?
601 2012-07-09 18:58:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ha! well I invested in Diablo-D3 directly!
602 2012-07-09 18:58:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: do you own him then?
603 2012-07-09 18:58:47 <gmaxwell> Hmm. Interesting question.
604 2012-07-09 18:58:57 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: **FETCH**
605 2012-07-09 18:59:12 <Diablo-D3> Aint happening.
606 2012-07-09 18:59:16 <gmaxwell> Hmph.
607 2012-07-09 18:59:27 <gmaxwell> Apparently not.
608 2012-07-09 18:59:30 <Diablo-D3> I paud off my debt to the community over two weeks of 8 hour a day hard work.
609 2012-07-09 18:59:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: is it legal to beat disobedient slaves where you live?
610 2012-07-09 18:59:42 <gmaxwell> I am in Virginia, so probably.
611 2012-07-09 18:59:44 <Diablo-D3> The worlds best GCN kernel.
612 2012-07-09 18:59:46 <Diablo-D3> Bam.
613 2012-07-09 19:00:05 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Man, does everything you touch turn controversial?  Can we somehow bottle this power and put it on sale?
614 2012-07-09 19:00:05 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: didn't Con's from-scratch kernel do just as well?
615 2012-07-09 19:00:20 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what this time?
616 2012-07-09 19:00:28 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: just reflecting on the clients page.
617 2012-07-09 19:00:35 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: nope
618 2012-07-09 19:00:44 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: hey, if it was merged the way I did it, it wouldn't be controversial!
619 2012-07-09 19:00:46 <luke-jr> ;)
620 2012-07-09 19:06:02 <TD> gmaxwell: lol
621 2012-07-09 19:06:10 <TD> bottled controversy
622 2012-07-09 19:06:12 <TD> it sounds useful
623 2012-07-09 19:06:48 <gmaxwell> I expect the TV news anchors would be a major buyer of it.
624 2012-07-09 19:07:08 <TD> i think they have enough already
625 2012-07-09 19:07:12 <luke-jr> hmm
626 2012-07-09 19:07:27 <luke-jr> I may need to rethink how I present a summary of work done to some clients
627 2012-07-09 19:07:33 <BlueMatt> hey, wanna take the heat off, just sprinkle some controversy elsewhere, yay!
628 2012-07-09 19:07:38 <luke-jr> "You were fighting Zombies‼‼⁇?"
629 2012-07-09 19:08:00 <gmaxwell> "Today mathematicians announced a new theorm about the carnality of the set of primes <opens bottle> OMG MAYBE THE PRIMES AREN'T INFINITE AND WE'RE GOING TO RUN OUT OF THEM!"
630 2012-07-09 19:08:34 <BlueMatt> we need to stop using up so many primes, we should put a limit on individual prime usage
631 2012-07-09 19:08:58 <Diablo-D3> well thats just prime
632 2012-07-09 19:11:26 <gmaxwell> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2595
633 2012-07-09 19:12:32 <OneEyed> We can launch a contest to find the biggest prime, anybody can submit an entry, price to submit is 1 BTC, first people to submit a divisor gets .5 BTC, the other .5 BTC enters a jackpot, if no divisor is found in one week for a prime, submitter gets 50% of the current jackpot, so that other big numbers get a chance too
634 2012-07-09 19:12:42 <OneEyed> (sorry, thinking aloud)
635 2012-07-09 19:12:59 <gmaxwell> OneEyed: I'd rather have a more useful contest.
636 2012-07-09 19:14:10 * luke-jr wonders if anyone claimed his contest yet
637 2012-07-09 19:16:13 <OneEyed> luke-jr: what was it?
638 2012-07-09 19:16:16 <gmaxwell> FWIW, the reason etotheipi hasn't been around is because of IRC being a time sink.
639 2012-07-09 19:17:04 toffoo has joined
640 2012-07-09 19:17:28 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: oh. let's all leave irc asap!
641 2012-07-09 19:18:12 <gmaxwell> :) ... well it's true. But I _wish_ IRC were the worst of my problems.
642 2012-07-09 19:18:48 <luke-jr> OneEyed: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=90362
643 2012-07-09 19:18:56 <ThomasV> so what's going to happen with the 'clients' page?
644 2012-07-09 19:19:05 <luke-jr> looks like it's up to 2.25 BTC reward
645 2012-07-09 19:20:45 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: I see consensus forming around having it not be random, and being a little more conservative in what gets added.
646 2012-07-09 19:21:27 <gmaxwell> but we'll see what happens when more people get a chance to comment on the thread.
647 2012-07-09 19:21:52 <luke-jr> oh wait
648 2012-07-09 19:21:54 <luke-jr> someone did redeem it
649 2012-07-09 19:24:15 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
650 2012-07-09 19:27:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: that callgrind is done with bdb on a tmpfs?
651 2012-07-09 19:29:15 <sipa> not on a computer now, i'll have a look at the graph later
652 2012-07-09 19:29:36 <sipa> but i suppose some percentage of time is still spent inside bdb too
653 2012-07-09 19:33:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: Right callgrind is going to assume that all the syscalls take one cycle though.
654 2012-07-09 19:34:21 <sipa> ah, i see
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660 2012-07-09 19:44:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: the callgrind stuff works by doing the data collection from the valgrind VM. So in some ways it less intrusive e.g. than gperf profiling. But the valgrind cpu emulation's ideas of instruction times, branch prediction, etc. are not especially accurate. Six one way - Half a dozen another.
661 2012-07-09 19:44:38 <gmaxwell> The kcachegrind tool for visulaizing the profiles is quite good though, which makes it worth using even if gprof or oprofile style data collection would be better.
662 2012-07-09 19:46:26 [Tycho] has joined
663 2012-07-09 19:46:30 <Diablo-D3> I never could get gperf to work right
664 2012-07-09 19:46:41 <Diablo-D3> it just ignores new threads
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680 2012-07-09 20:49:18 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened issue 1573 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1573>
681 2012-07-09 20:49:21 OneEyed has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8)
682 2012-07-09 20:51:18 <TD> BlueMatt: by the way, my copy of bitcoin magazine finally arrived
683 2012-07-09 20:51:19 <TD> it's pretty good
684 2012-07-09 20:51:19 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
685 2012-07-09 20:51:23 <TD> judging from the contents page, at least :)
686 2012-07-09 20:51:29 OneEyed has joined
687 2012-07-09 20:52:04 <BlueMatt> nice
688 2012-07-09 20:56:09 rdponticelli has joined
689 2012-07-09 20:57:38 <gmaxwell> TD: no classified ads for third world sexslaves or anything embarassing like that?
690 2012-07-09 20:57:53 <TD> didn't see any yet
691 2012-07-09 21:01:28 Marf has joined
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695 2012-07-09 21:24:31 <TD> the main issue is it needs more writers
696 2012-07-09 21:24:40 <TD> i'm on page 25 and so far all the articles are written by the same guy
697 2012-07-09 21:24:44 <TD> who is a good writer, mind you
698 2012-07-09 21:24:51 <TD> but even so. i'm sure this will come with time
699 2012-07-09 21:25:21 <TD> also, it has an article on "bitcoin successes and failures", where bitcoinica is listed as a success. lol.
700 2012-07-09 21:26:21 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
701 2012-07-09 21:26:47 <justmoon> TD: there are quite a few more writers in the next issue I'm pretty sure
702 2012-07-09 21:27:08 <justmoon> I contributed a short story - not sure if it'll make it in ^^
703 2012-07-09 21:28:46 <TD> yeah
704 2012-07-09 21:29:04 <TD> they interviewed me. i think it'll be a while though. deadline for ads is tomorrow so it can't go to press until at least a week or two from then, i guess
705 2012-07-09 21:29:08 <TD> justmoon: btw what is helpcoin?
706 2012-07-09 21:29:36 * TD listens to the storm outside
707 2012-07-09 21:32:19 <justmoon> TD: jon wanted to start an agency for brokering bitcoin consulting engagements and he asked me if I would take consulting jobs if he sent them my way
708 2012-07-09 21:32:47 <justmoon> he since started doing the email support for weusecoins which several hours per day worth of work
709 2012-07-09 21:32:59 <justmoon> so he gets a link on wuc in exchange for his efforts
710 2012-07-09 21:33:11 <justmoon> the link is now to coinabul though, I think helpcoin is defunc
711 2012-07-09 21:33:14 <justmoon> defunct*
712 2012-07-09 21:34:13 <TD> ok
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717 2012-07-09 21:48:03 <BlueMatt> TD: do you happen to know of any import-bitcoind-style-blk0001.dat-files bitcoinj clients?
718 2012-07-09 21:48:40 <TD> none that read the block file. but you can just connect your client to localhost and have it download the chain in the usual manner. reading the file off disk might be slightly faster, but not by a huge amount
719 2012-07-09 21:49:06 <BlueMatt> meh, alright
720 2012-07-09 21:49:32 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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722 2012-07-09 21:52:25 <TD> BlueMatt: btw make sure to disable fast catchup
723 2012-07-09 21:52:28 <TD> otherwise it'll just do a getheaders
724 2012-07-09 21:52:48 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
725 2012-07-09 21:53:08 <BlueMatt> yep...also need to spend some time with PeerGroups to make that more useable with full blockchain...
726 2012-07-09 21:55:20 <TD> probably there will be a lot of changes for what you want to do
727 2012-07-09 21:55:43 <TD> by the way, what is your end goal with this work?
728 2012-07-09 21:55:57 <TD> SPV clients that can upgrade to pruning full nodes if they have sufficient resources?
729 2012-07-09 21:56:09 <BlueMatt> yep
730 2012-07-09 21:56:16 <BlueMatt> its about time we get a second full pruning codebase on the network
731 2012-07-09 21:56:21 <BlueMatt> s/pruning//
732 2012-07-09 21:56:39 <BlueMatt> maybe even mining, but thats a long way off and needs way more testing
733 2012-07-09 21:56:46 [\\\] is now known as imsaguy
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735 2012-07-09 21:59:40 <justmoon> BitcoinJS is a full codebase that supports mining - Trucoin ran (runs?) a private testnet which consisted of mining BitcoinJS nodes entirely
736 2012-07-09 22:00:00 <justmoon> to mine on the main network it would need better tx prioritization and DoS protection code
737 2012-07-09 22:00:07 <justmoon> but otherwise it'd be set to go
738 2012-07-09 22:00:24 <BlueMatt> oh...didnt realize bitcoinjs had full verification
739 2012-07-09 22:00:34 <BlueMatt> in any case, more full codebases is always much better
740 2012-07-09 22:00:52 <justmoon> weren't you there about a year ago when I excitedly announced that I implemented the whole script interpreter? :P
741 2012-07-09 22:01:18 <BlueMatt> must've missed it...
742 2012-07-09 22:02:01 <justmoon> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2011/07/09
743 2012-07-09 22:02:21 <justmoon> it was actually one year to the day lol and you congratulated me:
744 2012-07-09 22:02:21 <Cory> Does anybody want to make it so when a new address is created it is automatically selected in the list of addresses? :P
745 2012-07-09 22:02:25 <justmoon> BlueMatt 	that was quick
746 2012-07-09 22:02:28 <justmoon> :D
747 2012-07-09 22:02:29 <justmoon> <3
748 2012-07-09 22:02:40 <BlueMatt> heh...sorry
749 2012-07-09 22:02:48 <justmoon> no worries
750 2012-07-09 22:02:59 SteveBell has joined
751 2012-07-09 22:03:08 <TD> heh
752 2012-07-09 22:03:12 <BlueMatt> justmoon: whats the storage backend like?
753 2012-07-09 22:03:14 <TD> yeah bitcoinjs is probably more complete
754 2012-07-09 22:03:20 <justmoon> it's leveldb based
755 2012-07-09 22:03:27 <BlueMatt> full blocks?
756 2012-07-09 22:03:32 <justmoon> of course
757 2012-07-09 22:03:34 <TD> though, honestly, i don't trust any reimplementation of the full algorithm yet
758 2012-07-09 22:03:42 <TD> there are way too many subtle edge cases in satoshis code
759 2012-07-09 22:03:47 <justmoon> TD: for sure
760 2012-07-09 22:03:51 <TD> i wouldn't trust bitcoinj to mine unless the test suite was 10x larger than now
761 2012-07-09 22:04:04 <gmaxwell> TD: as you shouldn't... the reference one isn't trustworthy but at least all-bugs-are-features saves it. :)
762 2012-07-09 22:04:09 <TD> haha :)
763 2012-07-09 22:04:10 <TD> right
764 2012-07-09 22:04:17 <justmoon> ^^
765 2012-07-09 22:04:25 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
766 2012-07-09 22:04:38 <justmoon> also the fact that it has the most developers by far helps
767 2012-07-09 22:04:50 <TD> the general direction i see for bitcoinj is for end-user thin clients, and as an API that people use to build apps that they connect to a local satoshi client. that way you get the security of a known-good local node, but the nice(ish) api
768 2012-07-09 22:05:04 <TD> though the bitcoinj api is still pretty warty. the result of development that is 100% focused on moble ux
769 2012-07-09 22:05:08 <TD> *mobile
770 2012-07-09 22:05:46 <gmaxwell> This was one reason I was excited about roconnor going towards as CoQ validator... because I hoped there would be some crazy functional extraction that could automatically generate test cases for every rule... then see if bitcoind and the coq implementation agreed.
771 2012-07-09 22:06:14 <TD> coq _is_ crazy. i remember looking at it very briefly a long time ago
772 2012-07-09 22:06:23 <TD> my conclusion was you can't prove the correctness of any interesting program
773 2012-07-09 22:06:27 <TD> at least not with that
774 2012-07-09 22:06:33 <gmaxwell> TD: Your conclusion was incorrect!
775 2012-07-09 22:06:43 <Diablo-D3> coq?
776 2012-07-09 22:06:47 <gmaxwell> (considering there are now validated C compilers (e.g. compcert!))
777 2012-07-09 22:06:47 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq
778 2012-07-09 22:06:52 <TD> i suppose i can just redefine "interesting" to be more and more complicated until i'm right :)
779 2012-07-09 22:06:54 <TD> ah, there are?
780 2012-07-09 22:06:57 <TD> ok.
781 2012-07-09 22:07:01 <Diablo-D3> am I supposed to pronounce this cock or cog?
782 2012-07-09 22:07:03 <gmaxwell> Yea, surprised me too.
783 2012-07-09 22:07:03 <TD> well, a compiler is still just a gigantic pure function
784 2012-07-09 22:07:06 <TD> but even so
785 2012-07-09 22:07:09 <TD> not bad!
786 2012-07-09 22:07:21 <gmaxwell> TD: so is block validation though. If you define the parameters right. :)
787 2012-07-09 22:07:27 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: huh, thats interesting?
788 2012-07-09 22:07:53 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: bitcoind doesn't necessarily have "all-bugs-are-features" ;)
789 2012-07-09 22:08:03 <gmaxwell> In theory something like KLEE should be able to generate test vectors that hit all the rules. But in practice there is just far too much stuff in bitcoin block messages that doesn't do anything interesting. :(
790 2012-07-09 22:08:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if all miners switched to BitcoinJS, it would ;)
791 2012-07-09 22:08:19 drizztbsd has joined
792 2012-07-09 22:08:35 <luke-jr> assuming MtGox's client agreed with BJS
793 2012-07-09 22:08:47 <TD> i hadn't seen klee
794 2012-07-09 22:08:49 <TD> that's interesting
795 2012-07-09 22:08:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I mean that there can be many bugs that we'd not notice because the only widespread full validator is bitcoind. The bug would be just an unobservable 'feature' right now.
796 2012-07-09 22:09:17 <gmaxwell> I've used it successfully on software simpler than bitcoin (entropy coders) to quickly build 100% branch coverage test vectors.
797 2012-07-09 22:09:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: and I mean if the majority of miners and exchanges disagreed, bitcoind would probably have to adapt ;)
798 2012-07-09 22:10:15 <luke-jr> (assuming it was really a bug in bitcoind and not an exploit in the miners/exchanges)
799 2012-07-09 22:10:31 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I expect in the future when there are multiple validators you'd run all popular ones.. and not extend blocks that don't pass all of them.  "The longest least common denominator chain"
800 2012-07-09 22:10:47 Apexseals has joined
801 2012-07-09 22:10:59 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: makes sense
802 2012-07-09 22:11:19 <TD> justmoon: bitcoinjs got a lot bigger since i last saw it!
803 2012-07-09 22:11:27 <TD> justmoon: but what's your eventual goal for it?
804 2012-07-09 22:11:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it would make exploits at the blockchain level very hard.
805 2012-07-09 22:11:52 <SteveBell>  bitcoin client 0.6.3 crashing on mac on startup...
806 2012-07-09 22:11:55 <SteveBell> is this known?
807 2012-07-09 22:12:07 <BlueMatt> SteveBell: whats the error?
808 2012-07-09 22:12:09 <BlueMatt> or none?
809 2012-07-09 22:12:28 <SteveBell> nothing so far. let me fire up console.app
810 2012-07-09 22:12:37 <justmoon> TD: well, it's been enough time with absolutely zero adaptation that it's time to consider that there might not be a demand for it
811 2012-07-09 22:13:05 <luke-jr> justmoon: do you have a BIP22 implementation using it?
812 2012-07-09 22:13:10 <justmoon> TD: even if I fixed the remaining bugs and implemented the remaining missing features, the advantages over bitcoind would be slim
813 2012-07-09 22:13:17 <TD> mm
814 2012-07-09 22:13:41 <SteveBell> I just see the loading blockindex wallet image and app becomes unresponsive...
815 2012-07-09 22:13:50 <SteveBell> no error msgs in console
816 2012-07-09 22:13:55 <luke-jr> SteveBell: debug.log?
817 2012-07-09 22:14:07 <SteveBell> where'd I find that?
818 2012-07-09 22:14:18 <luke-jr> where wallet.dat is
819 2012-07-09 22:14:19 <BlueMatt> justmoon: does it have support for multisig?
820 2012-07-09 22:14:34 <BlueMatt> justmoon: if you made a web-wallet software with support for multisig, i think gavin might love you
821 2012-07-09 22:14:40 <justmoon> luke-jr: no, it does have a memory pool and it does have the function to convert a tx to json, so it'd be reasonably easy to add I guess
822 2012-07-09 22:14:57 <gavinandresen> I already love justmoon
823 2012-07-09 22:15:05 <TD> justmoon: btw, did you see my post about distributed bond markets?
824 2012-07-09 22:15:13 <SteveBell> lol debug.log is 8.2MB
825 2012-07-09 22:15:15 rdponticelli has joined
826 2012-07-09 22:15:18 <TD> justmoon: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92421.0    seems like the kind of thing that's up your street
827 2012-07-09 22:15:25 <SteveBell> should I erase it and restart the app then send the log?
828 2012-07-09 22:15:40 <TD> no
829 2012-07-09 22:15:43 <TD> just look at the bottom
830 2012-07-09 22:15:44 <luke-jr> SteveBell: just pastebin the end ~50 lines
831 2012-07-09 22:15:49 <SteveBell> kk
832 2012-07-09 22:15:59 <gavinandresen> tail -50 works in console.app
833 2012-07-09 22:16:23 <justmoon> BlueMatt: ben contributed a tiny patch enabling the creation of multisig transactions in bitcoinjs-lib, but I haven't had a chance to implement multisig on the server yet :( - I kinda stopped developing for a bit and only recently picked it back up, adding testnet3 support
834 2012-07-09 22:17:03 <justmoon> BlueMatt: I thought BlockChain.info had some kind of feature for creating multisig transactions, but I could be wrong, talk to ben on that
835 2012-07-09 22:17:13 <justmoon> gavinandresen: <3
836 2012-07-09 22:17:42 <SteveBell> http://pastebin.com/5MrsfsyL
837 2012-07-09 22:17:45 <SteveBell> valid for 1h
838 2012-07-09 22:17:50 <justmoon> TD: will look at it thanks - guess we'll have plenty of time to discuss it next weekend
839 2012-07-09 22:17:55 <TD> yeah
840 2012-07-09 22:18:01 <[Tycho]> justmoon: he disabled it recently.
841 2012-07-09 22:18:09 <luke-jr> SteveBell: looks like it's working.
842 2012-07-09 22:18:11 <TD> it's got a bunch of stuff in it. i'm not sure it's all fully baked
843 2012-07-09 22:18:16 <TD> i propose a new SIGHASH flag for the next hard fork
844 2012-07-09 22:18:27 <luke-jr> SteveBell: ignore it being unresponsive?
845 2012-07-09 22:18:44 <luke-jr> TD: there's a wiki page of ideas for a hardfork
846 2012-07-09 22:18:56 <TD> i should write up the sighash proposal in more detail. currently it's not well argued.
847 2012-07-09 22:18:56 <SteveBell> yes that's what I though. no error in sight. but when opening the force quit window I see bitcoin-qt (unresponsive) also nothing happens for several minutes when opening the client
848 2012-07-09 22:19:04 <SteveBell> *thouht
849 2012-07-09 22:19:15 <SteveBell> *thought damn it!
850 2012-07-09 22:19:23 <BlueMatt> justmoon: hmm...well bitcoin-qt (or more ideally, android-wallet) needs a gui for multisig stuff, but if there were a webwallet with multisig, that would be awesome
851 2012-07-09 22:19:32 <SteveBell> ah ok, looks like it's just loading very slowly. opens finally after about 2-3 minutes
852 2012-07-09 22:19:34 <SteveBell> hmm.
853 2012-07-09 22:19:39 <SteveBell> now working fine
854 2012-07-09 22:19:41 <BlueMatt> (multisig as in sign a tx with webwallet+local client)
855 2012-07-09 22:19:53 <gavinandresen> SteveBell: glad we could help.
856 2012-07-09 22:20:12 <SteveBell> hehe, it#s appreciated. and thanks for your work!
857 2012-07-09 22:20:25 <TD> justmoon: andreas and I are thinking of maybe trying a CHECKMULTISIG based 2-factor coin extension at the berlin hackathon
858 2012-07-09 22:20:32 <gmaxwell> TD: the sighash flags are so frustrating. A considerable amount of thought was needed to see that they were needed, but then there are useful cases they don't cover. :-/
859 2012-07-09 22:20:45 <SteveBell> and if you ever have too much time on your hands URI support on mac would be <3
860 2012-07-09 22:20:49 <TD> it means upgrading multibit/bitcoin wallet/bitcoinj simultaneously, probably tied together with bluetooth
861 2012-07-09 22:20:59 <TD> not sure it's achievable in one weekend no matter how intense the hacking is
862 2012-07-09 22:21:06 <justmoon> BlueMatt: I was literally building the whole stack from my own leveldb Node.js binding to web-based GUI, it's too much, if you want GUI features, talk to Ben, he's the only person I know who is seriously working on it
863 2012-07-09 22:21:07 <TD> gmaxwell: yes. i know the feeling :)
864 2012-07-09 22:21:17 <TD> gmaxwell: i don't think i ever came up with a use case for SIGHASH_NONE, actually
865 2012-07-09 22:22:20 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
866 2012-07-09 22:22:27 <gmaxwell> TD: It works with the NOPs to allow new network rules about how the outputs work.
867 2012-07-09 22:22:43 <TD> how so?
868 2012-07-09 22:22:48 <justmoon> TD: sounds cool - I guess I'm gonna hope there will be some kind of JavaScript developer other than myself there, I quite like the idea of writing a bookmarklet verifiable deployment, so that you can load a webbased client without installing anything and without trusting a server
869 2012-07-09 22:23:05 <gmaxwell> TD: right now there are no script conditional ways to adjust the outputs, you could do something with NOPs to have scripts adjust outputs and sighash_none to make the txn valid to old nodes.
870 2012-07-09 22:23:07 <TD> justmoon: hmm, neat, i guess. how would upgrades work?
871 2012-07-09 22:23:12 <gmaxwell> TD: or at least thats what _I_ thought it was for.
872 2012-07-09 22:23:19 <TD> gmaxwell: scripts adjust outputs?
873 2012-07-09 22:23:27 <TD> gmaxwell: you mean verify the form of a spending transaction
874 2012-07-09 22:23:28 <TD> ?
875 2012-07-09 22:24:00 <justmoon> basically the bookmarklet would contain a SHA256 implementation and a list of HTTP servers that host the client, it would download a string containing two loader stages
876 2012-07-09 22:24:12 <TD> hah, sha256 in a bookmark
877 2012-07-09 22:24:34 <justmoon> stage 1 contains a ECDSA implementation and a list of client developer keys, stage 2 would be the client itself signed by n-of-m of the developers
878 2012-07-09 22:24:47 OneEyed has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
879 2012-07-09 22:24:50 <justmoon> stage 1's hash is in the bookmarklet
880 2012-07-09 22:24:53 <TD> gmaxwell: satoshi told me what it was for once
881 2012-07-09 22:24:54 MC1984 has joined
882 2012-07-09 22:24:57 <TD> gmaxwell: let me dig it out
883 2012-07-09 22:25:03 <TD> something to do with negotiations
884 2012-07-09 22:25:08 <BlueMatt> justmoon: now thats a crazy fancy awesome client
885 2012-07-09 22:25:11 <gmaxwell> TD: thats better than my guesses for sure!
886 2012-07-09 22:25:16 <TD> There are other options in SignatureHash such as SIGHASH_SINGLE which means "I agree, as long as this one output (i.e. mine) is what I want, I don't care what you do with the other outputs.".  If that's written with a high nSequenceNumber, the party can bow out of the negotiation except for that one stipulation, or sign SIGHASH_NONE and bow out completely.
887 2012-07-09 22:25:41 <justmoon> BlueMatt: using a bookmarklet wasn't my idea, I was wrecking my brain today trying to remember the guy's name... :( - he suggested it here on IRC I think
888 2012-07-09 22:26:13 <justmoon> it basically means no internet explorer, but it might be a pretty cool option for iphone
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891 2012-07-09 22:26:35 <gmaxwell> TD: ah, I see.  "I've died and don't care anymore what will be done with these transactions for which I am a signing multiparty"
892 2012-07-09 22:26:36 <TD> justmoon: i read that opera on iphone can access the camera?
893 2012-07-09 22:26:51 <justmoon> (ie6 for example has a 600-ish character limit on bookmarklets, no sha256 implementation fits in that)
894 2012-07-09 22:27:01 <BlueMatt> justmoon: meh...so what?
895 2012-07-09 22:27:19 <justmoon> TD: yeah there is an HTML5 standard for camera access now, I assume all browsers will have it a couple versions down the road
896 2012-07-09 22:27:33 <justmoon> TD: but then I'll be waiting for an HTML5 NFC API :P
897 2012-07-09 22:28:18 <justmoon> the life of a web developer - waiting until the cool kids finally let you play with their toys in your (browser) sandbox
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899 2012-07-09 22:28:36 <TD> gmaxwell: yeah it's for terminating negotiations that are taking place using nLockTimed multi-party transactions where each party can increment the sequence number independently. it means once you "bowed out" the others can continue to negotiate
900 2012-07-09 22:29:02 <TD> like i said, i never found a use case where that was needed though. he must have had one in mind
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902 2012-07-09 22:29:38 <TD> he mentioned pushing unresponsive parties out using default fallback transactions prepared after each round of negotiation
903 2012-07-09 22:29:41 <TD> perhaps it's related to that
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906 2012-07-09 22:30:41 <justmoon> ok, good night all - TD: I dissed you on the mailing list, enjoy :D
907 2012-07-09 22:30:42 <justmoon> bye
908 2012-07-09 22:30:44 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
909 2012-07-09 22:30:46 <TD> hehe
910 2012-07-09 22:30:47 <TD> later :)
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943 2012-07-09 22:57:35 <OneEyed> Funny fact: GLBSE takes more than 30 seconds to acknowledge a withdrawal request… which is more than the lifetime of the 2 factor key
944 2012-07-09 23:00:39 Gamebak has joined
945 2012-07-09 23:02:02 <Gamebak> hello guys is ther a way to keep acces to a wallet with php
946 2012-07-09 23:04:02 rdponticelli_ has joined
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948 2012-07-09 23:06:18 <[Tycho]> Hello, Gamebak
949 2012-07-09 23:07:00 <gege> Hi guys, is it just me or is socketio.mtgox.com down? If it is down, is this a common occurance?
950 2012-07-09 23:07:06 <Gamebak> i think i found what i was looking for
951 2012-07-09 23:07:07 <Gamebak> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro
952 2012-07-09 23:07:20 <Gamebak> the password is always root:root ?
953 2012-07-09 23:07:21 eoss has joined
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957 2012-07-09 23:11:01 <sipa> Gamebak: whatever you set username and password to
958 2012-07-09 23:11:13 <Gamebak> thanks
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