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 14 2012-07-10 00:37:46 <Elio19> How will i know if a transaction will exceed the size limit and require a fee?
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 17 2012-07-10 00:42:07 <luke-jr> Elio19: you won't.
 18 2012-07-10 00:43:54 <Elio19> luke-jr, who would?
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 20 2012-07-10 00:44:22 <luke-jr> Elio19: no human
 21 2012-07-10 00:44:47 <copumpkin> that is why you pay a pumpkin
 22 2012-07-10 00:45:27 <gmaxwell> Elio19: the GUI will tell you when that happens and offer to let you pay a fee.
 23 2012-07-10 00:45:47 <Elio19> gmaxwell, yes i noticed that.
 24 2012-07-10 00:46:13 <Elio19> I would be happy to pay a pumpkin to tell me tho.
 25 2012-07-10 00:46:19 <luke-jr> Elio19: I have a patch on GitHub that will let you set an upper limit to fees, but it won't be pulled until someone implements an "undo"
 26 2012-07-10 00:46:46 <luke-jr> Elio19: also, most cases where someone wants to know a fee in advance are misguided for bitcoind
 27 2012-07-10 00:47:19 <Elio19> luke-jr, regardless of my direction, what do you mean by an undo?
 28 2012-07-10 00:47:26 * luke-jr still thinks that branch should be merged, possibly with the -nosafefees #if 0'd out
 29 2012-07-10 00:47:45 <luke-jr> Elio19: the same patch allows you to bypass the fees, so undo is required if a transaction gets stuck
 30 2012-07-10 00:48:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I still liked my idea of being able to make a txn that isn't sent until the rules pass... and then have instant aborts for anything unset.
 31 2012-07-10 00:48:10 <gmaxwell> er unsent.
 32 2012-07-10 00:48:58 <gmaxwell> (the problem with sending being is that any undo on a sent tranasction needs to have a dead time so it doesn't end up getting dropped as a doublespend)
 33 2012-07-10 00:50:00 <Elio19> So how does my bitcoin client determine that a fee is necessary?
 34 2012-07-10 00:50:48 <gmaxwell> Elio19: because it has the rules that most of the other nodes use to decide if a transaction will be relayed embedded inside it.
 35 2012-07-10 00:51:19 <gmaxwell> (these rules generally may it costly to DOS attack the bitcoin network, because they make people who rapidly respend coin pay fees)
 36 2012-07-10 00:51:52 <Elio19> Thanks for the help guys
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215 2012-07-10 11:58:00 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1574 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1574>
216 2012-07-10 12:04:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: 5m05s to load 185k blocks with a std::map-backed coindb
217 2012-07-10 12:05:04 <sipa> compared to 6m when using tmpfs-BDB-backed coindb
218 2012-07-10 12:05:19 <sipa> and 11m when using disk-BDB-backed coindb
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242 2012-07-10 13:40:31 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj opened pull request 1575 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1575>
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276 2012-07-10 14:57:47 <OneEyed> I was reading the contracts page on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
277 2012-07-10 14:58:21 <OneEyed> Nowhere it mentions that you have to be able to make the exact input amount, or you'll have the change blocked as well
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280 2012-07-10 15:05:20 <gmaxwell> OneEyed: you can always do a transaction before that transaction to get the inputs the right size.
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288 2012-07-10 15:39:10 <jgarzik> stupid cpuminer
289 2012-07-10 15:39:27 <jgarzik> solo mined all night last night, with two CPU cores, with no blocks to show for it!
290 2012-07-10 15:39:58 <Diablo-D3> lol
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293 2012-07-10 15:42:17 <jgarzik> ;;ident
294 2012-07-10 15:42:17 <gribble> You are not identified.
295 2012-07-10 15:45:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: on testnet you mean?
296 2012-07-10 15:46:56 <jgarzik> luke-jr: mainnet
297 2012-07-10 15:47:33 <luke-jr> i c, must've been sarcasm ;p
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300 2012-07-10 15:51:38 <jgarzik> machine burn-in
301 2012-07-10 15:51:48 * jgarzik really was solo mining on mainnet with CPU
302 2012-07-10 15:52:25 <jgarzik> great way to get it to run all its fans, exercise its disk (initial block download) and other systems
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304 2012-07-10 15:56:34 <gmaxwell> if only we used proof-of-txn-processing-capacity (where the POW involves H(header)->random_txout_index, H(header+random_txout)=work instead of SHA256^2 it would really excercise everything.
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306 2012-07-10 16:07:28 * jgarzik waits patiently for the open source community to get its OpenCL into gear
307 2012-07-10 16:09:17 <jgarzik> it will be interesting to [belatedly] see how many Mhps that these new Intel graphics chips produce
308 2012-07-10 16:09:53 <jgarzik> nothing close to Radeons, surely, but probably faster than CPU
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310 2012-07-10 16:14:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: in your callgrind chart, BuildMerkleTree has 12.52% usage
311 2012-07-10 16:14:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: while it has a 2.95% Hash() child and a 11.64% CTransaction::GetHash()
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313 2012-07-10 16:15:21 * jgarzik wishes CTransaction were smart enough to get its hash
314 2012-07-10 16:15:27 <jgarzik> *cache
315 2012-07-10 16:15:38 * jgarzik goes for the morning Pepsi
316 2012-07-10 16:15:54 <sipa> jgarzik: in my branch a transaction's hash is never computed twice
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318 2012-07-10 16:18:00 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: grab me a Mountain Dew, I'm dragging a little this afternoon
319 2012-07-10 16:18:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: the times are of the total.. so one (or both) of those has other parents, which may be too small to get listed on their own.
320 2012-07-10 16:18:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: right
321 2012-07-10 16:18:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, CheckBlock() is called twice for each block, and has 17% CPU usage
322 2012-07-10 16:19:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: opencl is only supported on ivy bridge, never on sandy bridge, Its been on my todo list to benchmark the ivy bridge I have in the house (and they have an sdk for linux, though its a pretty harsh license)
323 2012-07-10 16:19:41 <gavinandresen> making a list, checking it twice....
324 2012-07-10 16:19:54 <[Tycho]> :)
325 2012-07-10 16:20:17 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: poop.  I have sandy bridge.
326 2012-07-10 16:20:22 <gavinandresen> Hey [Tycho] : I've been spending a ton of time in the last week or so thinking about transaction fees.  What's your current fee policy?
327 2012-07-10 16:20:29 <gmaxwell> I wonder how viable it would be to use a multiway sha256 in things like the tree building.
328 2012-07-10 16:20:41 <gmaxwell> at least a two way wouldn't be too hard to use.
329 2012-07-10 16:21:31 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: as stated on the help page, but currently I'm intentionally lowering priority for 1dice TXes to allow more normal free transactions.
330 2012-07-10 16:21:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: making a list, checking it twice?
331 2012-07-10 16:22:12 <gavinandresen> sipa: lyrics from "Santa Claus is Coming To Town" song
332 2012-07-10 16:22:43 <gavinandresen> (are you Sinter Klaus in Belgium?  does he make a list of naughty and nice transactions?)
333 2012-07-10 16:23:29 <sipa> Sinterklaas, we call him, and he is separate (though looks a bit similar to) the "Chistmas Man"
334 2012-07-10 16:23:53 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Sipa is just doing that dutch thing where they pretend that they're not all americans in a disguise of bicycles and bizarre art.
335 2012-07-10 16:23:54 <sipa> and he does have a big book with a lsit of which children have been nice and naughty
336 2012-07-10 16:24:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: now you lost me
337 2012-07-10 16:24:59 <gavinandresen> [Tycho]: thanks for the fee policy pointer
338 2012-07-10 16:25:40 <gavinandresen> I like bicycles and bizarre art
339 2012-07-10 16:26:06 <gavinandresen> But I wasn't born in America, so I guess that figures
340 2012-07-10 16:26:32 Diapolo has joined
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342 2012-07-10 16:27:33 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen: see pm.
343 2012-07-10 16:27:35 Maged has joined
344 2012-07-10 16:28:43 <[Tycho]> Actually that part about "more free TXes than anyone else" is not actual anymore :)
345 2012-07-10 16:29:17 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
346 2012-07-10 16:29:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: It seems that all the belgium/netherlands theoretically dutch speaking folks I interact with online are only distinguishable from the 'native speakers' by their superior command of english. :)
347 2012-07-10 16:30:46 X-Scale` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
348 2012-07-10 16:30:54 <gmaxwell> So I think it's all a big joke, you're all just claiming to be non-native speakers just because you don't want to be confused for americans who tend to be rude tourists. ;)
349 2012-07-10 16:31:24 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: LOL I read terrorists at the end of your sentence ^^
350 2012-07-10 16:31:46 <gmaxwell> I suppose most terrorists are kinda rude.
351 2012-07-10 16:32:06 <Diapolo> indeed ;)
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354 2012-07-10 16:39:05 <Diapolo> In which header or source file is the current version defined?
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356 2012-07-10 16:49:30 <luke-jr> Diapolo: in git
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359 2012-07-10 16:53:23 <Diapolo> alright
360 2012-07-10 16:54:03 <gavinandresen> src/version.cpp/version.h
361 2012-07-10 16:54:44 <gavinandresen> and share/genbuild.sh, which creates obj/build.h
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371 2012-07-10 17:09:51 <Diapolo> thanks gavin, better answer ;)
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380 2012-07-10 17:29:12 <copumpkin> https://plus.google.com/u/0/113212242446665079433/posts/KJ6Wrkyuji5 :)
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396 2012-07-10 18:38:07 <Marf> the pig is right
397 2012-07-10 18:38:13 <Marf> isnt there a minimal build
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402 2012-07-10 18:47:00 <makomk> ["0x4c 0x00","0 EQUAL"], - curious.
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405 2012-07-10 18:54:08 <pooler> What is the purpose of strAddressBad in src/test/key_tests.cpp? I thought it was for checking if the client is able to recognize bad addresses, but the value appears to be a valid address.
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412 2012-07-10 19:10:02 <sipa> pooler: shouldn't be valid...
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417 2012-07-10 19:21:27 <pooler> Well i fed it to validateaddress and I get: "isvalid" : true
418 2012-07-10 19:24:08 <lianj> http://blockexplorer.com/q/checkaddress/1HV9Lc3sNHZxwj4Zk6fB38tEmBryq2cBiF
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420 2012-07-10 19:25:21 <lianj> what makes it invalid?
421 2012-07-10 19:25:54 <mcorlett> lianj: 00 is valid.
422 2012-07-10 19:26:01 <lianj> yea, i know
423 2012-07-10 19:26:33 <lianj> oh.. i mis-read pooler.. sorry. ISvalid, not INvalid oO
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425 2012-07-10 19:32:20 <pooler> My question is, if the address is valid, why is it called strAddressBad?
426 2012-07-10 19:32:45 <pooler> Also, I tried putting various values there, and they didn't influence the output of the test suite.
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430 2012-07-10 19:40:32 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: ripper234 opened issue 1576 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1576>
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439 2012-07-10 20:05:52 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1577 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1577>
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442 2012-07-10 20:08:19 <makomk> pooler: it appears to be for checking that Bitcoin won't let you import a Bitcoin address as a private key
443 2012-07-10 20:09:42 <pooler> Ah! Thanks!
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456 2012-07-10 20:38:22 <[Tycho]> Oh, they are messing with the coinbase again :(
457 2012-07-10 20:40:41 <cccp> how so?
458 2012-07-10 20:41:04 <[Tycho]> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92558.msg0#new
459 2012-07-10 20:41:22 <cccp> ty
460 2012-07-10 20:44:06 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: I'd say its better to keep bitcoin evolving than to let it remain static...
461 2012-07-10 20:44:51 <[Tycho]> Is there a description why do we need a block height in the block ?
462 2012-07-10 20:47:49 <BlueMatt> it enforces coinbase uniqueness
463 2012-07-10 20:48:17 <BlueMatt> and having block height in the block structure is really nice for certain client models
464 2012-07-10 20:49:06 <BlueMatt> though mainly its a "there have been several cases where this would have been nice, so while we are adding versions, lets add this"
465 2012-07-10 20:49:10 <ersi> cccp: choo choo
466 2012-07-10 20:49:58 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
467 2012-07-10 20:51:38 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: how's multisend coming?
468 2012-07-10 20:52:00 <[Tycho]> Fine, already tested it.
469 2012-07-10 20:52:03 <BlueMatt> (which, as of ultraprune, has an even bigger impact on storage space...)
470 2012-07-10 20:52:07 <BlueMatt> nice
471 2012-07-10 20:52:45 <[Tycho]> Are there many problems with coinbase uniqueness atm ?
472 2012-07-10 20:52:48 <luke-jr> BIPs really shouldn't make reference to specific clients except as implementations
473 2012-07-10 20:54:18 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: no, bip30 made it (somewhat) illegal, and (afaik) we havent seen it since blocks in the 90k range, but its still a nice feature to make clients (or, really, sites like blockchain.info) happy when they assume that tx hashes are unique
474 2012-07-10 20:54:34 <BlueMatt> (blockchain.info f's up on the two duplicate coinbases in the chain)
475 2012-07-10 20:55:22 * luke-jr wonders if Deepbit lacks BIP30
476 2012-07-10 20:55:37 <BlueMatt> if it did, you could kill it pretty easily...
477 2012-07-10 20:55:40 egecko has joined
478 2012-07-10 20:55:43 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: wanna test it?
479 2012-07-10 20:55:43 <[Tycho]> luke-jr: try me.
480 2012-07-10 20:56:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: wanna finance it?
481 2012-07-10 20:56:07 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: is that a "Im overconfident" or "yes, I implement bip30"?
482 2012-07-10 20:56:13 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: heh...ok so ask Diablo-D3
483 2012-07-10 20:56:45 <gmaxwell> BIP 30 prevents transaction rewrites. It does not prevent the duplication of already spent coinbases, and can't because if it did it would make pruning impossible.
484 2012-07-10 20:57:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, only (somewhat) illegal
485 2012-07-10 20:57:35 <Diablo-D3> ?
486 2012-07-10 20:59:25 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: wanna waste 50 BTC to see if [Tycho] recognizes BIP30?
487 2012-07-10 21:00:08 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
488 2012-07-10 21:00:12 <Diablo-D3> I dont really care
489 2012-07-10 21:01:14 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: so why can't we just require coinbases to be unique, without adding block depth there ? Am I missing something ? Or there are other purposes ?
490 2012-07-10 21:01:34 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: we already do. does deepbit enforce this or not?
491 2012-07-10 21:01:36 <BlueMatt> yes, having a block number in a block is very convenient
492 2012-07-10 21:02:32 sytse has joined
493 2012-07-10 21:02:56 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: will v2 blocks be accepted by old non-mining clients just fine ?
494 2012-07-10 21:02:59 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: and requiring coinbases be unique full stop means you can no longer pruned block chains
495 2012-07-10 21:03:04 <BlueMatt> yes
496 2012-07-10 21:03:10 <BlueMatt> and old mining clients too
497 2012-07-10 21:03:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: we require that they not overwrite a unspent ID, this isn't the same as global uniqueness.
498 2012-07-10 21:03:57 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: for practical purposes, it is
499 2012-07-10 21:04:12 <BlueMatt> its clearly not the same for blockchain.info
500 2012-07-10 21:04:17 <BlueMatt> (and any other sites like it)
501 2012-07-10 21:04:22 <[Tycho]> BlueMatt: how exactly is it convenient ?
502 2012-07-10 21:04:42 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: it also means clients can "cheat" on some things
503 2012-07-10 21:04:53 <luke-jr> by knowing a block's height without having the full chain
504 2012-07-10 21:05:07 <BlueMatt> you have block height without having to have a full chain (of at least block headers)
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506 2012-07-10 21:05:43 <[Tycho]> But then you should be sure that this block is accepted by the network.
507 2012-07-10 21:05:44 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: it's really not. Say you have a banking site that can somehow be exploited by there existing duplicated txn.  I can mine a block, spend it into a txn A.. then mine a duplicate of that block.  .. send A to the bank.. wait for it to get spent. Then use my duplicate block to send A' to the bank.
508 2012-07-10 21:06:32 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: and so even with BIP30 you can give duplicate txn to a merchant and make their software do crazy things because they've assumed txn can't have duplicated IDs.
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510 2012-07-10 21:08:27 <gmaxwell> This is because BIP30 couldn't deny global duplication without making pruning forever impossible.
511 2012-07-10 21:08:52 <gmaxwell> The only way to prevent duplication without making pruning impossible is to make sure that each coinbase transaction is unique.
512 2012-07-10 21:09:38 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: ?
513 2012-07-10 21:09:48 <[Tycho]> ?
514 2012-07-10 21:09:59 <BlueMatt> <[Tycho]> But then you should be sure that this block is accepted by the network.
515 2012-07-10 21:10:01 <BlueMatt> ?
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531 2012-07-10 21:55:01 <TehZomB> herro
532 2012-07-10 21:55:22 <TehZomB> is it possible to run two bitcoinds on one server, as one user? for example one running out of ~/.bitcoin and one of out ~/.bitcoin2? and if so, is it possible for them to share the blockchain file?
533 2012-07-10 21:56:00 <BlueMatt> possible? yes, possible to share the chain file? no
534 2012-07-10 21:56:17 <TehZomB> okay
535 2012-07-10 21:56:36 <BlueMatt> I believe all you need is -datadir and either -nolisten or -port
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537 2012-07-10 21:56:38 <TehZomB> is it kosher to set the second client to only connect to the first client using, i think it's the -addnode argument?
538 2012-07-10 21:56:56 <BlueMatt> you would want -connect for that, and yes it would be recommended
539 2012-07-10 21:56:57 <bonks> or -connect
540 2012-07-10 21:57:06 <TehZomB> ok conenct. thanks
541 2012-07-10 21:57:11 Ahimoth has joined
542 2012-07-10 22:00:15 <TehZomB> ;;calc 25/600
543 2012-07-10 22:00:15 <gribble> 0.0416666666667
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548 2012-07-10 22:03:27 <TehZomB> ;;calc 15/600
549 2012-07-10 22:03:27 <gribble> 0.025
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577 2012-07-10 22:48:43 <Moogs> how do i start bitcoins
578 2012-07-10 22:51:40 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
579 2012-07-10 22:51:46 <lianj> Moogs: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getting_started
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