1 2012-07-17 00:00:10 <copumpkin> oh
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5 2012-07-17 00:00:30 <copumpkin> I see
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9 2012-07-17 00:02:29 <Joric> ;;asks 10
10 2012-07-17 00:02:30 <gribble> There are currently 18350.814 bitcoins offered at or under 10.0 USD, worth 168371.253493 USD in total.
11 2012-07-17 00:02:43 <Joric> isn't it wonderful 16k till $10
12 2012-07-17 00:04:48 * BlueMatt was happier when btc was static at $5
13 2012-07-17 00:05:03 <jgarzik> me too
14 2012-07-17 00:05:30 <copumpkin> aha, there we go
15 2012-07-17 00:05:38 <copumpkin> the hashes look good now
16 2012-07-17 00:05:38 <copumpkin> :D
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37 2012-07-17 00:48:41 <graingert> ;;ask 31
38 2012-07-17 00:48:42 <gribble> Error: "ask" is not a valid command.
39 2012-07-17 00:48:44 <graingert> ;;asks 31
40 2012-07-17 00:48:46 <gribble> There are currently 65485.862 bitcoins offered at or under 31.0 USD, worth 1048149.99549 USD in total.
41 2012-07-17 00:49:00 <Joric> lol not so much either
42 2012-07-17 00:49:07 <graingert> ;;asks 0.40
43 2012-07-17 00:49:09 <gribble> There are currently 0 bitcoins offered at or under 0.4 USD, worth 0.0 USD in total.
44 2012-07-17 00:49:15 <graingert> ;;bids 0.40
45 2012-07-17 00:49:16 <gribble> There are currently 596094.82 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.4 USD, worth 1877149.41309 USD in total.
46 2012-07-17 00:49:25 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
47 2012-07-17 00:50:22 <graingert> this one is better for spotting
48 2012-07-17 00:50:23 <graingert> http://www.livebitcointicker.com/
49 2012-07-17 00:51:35 <jrmithdobbs> did those lost/stolen/whatever funds get xfered to an mtgox account or something?
50 2012-07-17 00:51:50 <jrmithdobbs> wondering why the surge right after, seems contrary to history
51 2012-07-17 00:51:51 <graingert> jrmithdobbs: who knows
52 2012-07-17 00:55:49 Obsi has joined
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54 2012-07-17 01:04:39 <upb> well whats the easyest way to get mtgoxusd out of gox untracably
55 2012-07-17 01:04:47 <upb> buy btc and withdraw those
56 2012-07-17 01:08:39 <graingert> it helps if you crash the market first
57 2012-07-17 01:09:03 <graingert> so you get out 1000$ worth at 0.0001 btc per dollar
58 2012-07-17 01:11:09 <upb> didnt the last trollback coincide with the bubble bursting tho?
59 2012-07-17 01:12:34 Fanquake has joined
60 2012-07-17 01:13:32 <amiller> i'm having a good day, i hope all of you are too
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84 2012-07-17 02:21:37 <Fanquake> Is the forum down for anyone else?
85 2012-07-17 02:21:55 <jine> Yep, i can confirm that it's down
86 2012-07-17 02:22:25 <Fanquake> I can't get on mtgoxlive either..
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89 2012-07-17 02:25:08 <jgarzik> price action got everyone talking all at once
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91 2012-07-17 02:25:46 <Fanquake> The sell side has increased about 5 fold in the last half hour, over a million now...
92 2012-07-17 02:28:05 <galambo_> itll keep rising until after the subsidy decrease and everyone remembers they still cant really do anything with it (the fundamentals have not changed)
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106 2012-07-17 02:46:49 <Karmaon> Fanquake, strange that some of my apps weren't responding hosted on SoftLayer.
107 2012-07-17 02:46:54 maaku has joined
108 2012-07-17 02:46:56 <Karmaon> The forums are hosted their too.
109 2012-07-17 02:47:05 <Karmaon> But my server is reachable and I restarted it.
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130 2012-07-17 03:45:29 <MC1984> i have a strange folder here that is currently in my recycle bin, but if i move it elsewhere it disappears from file explorer
131 2012-07-17 03:45:43 <MC1984> but can then be seen with a specialist file viewer prog
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133 2012-07-17 03:45:53 <theymos> System file, probably.
134 2012-07-17 03:45:59 <MC1984> the hell, is my shit rootkitted or somthing
135 2012-07-17 03:46:23 <MC1984> its not a system file, its leftover from some program uninstalled ages ago
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137 2012-07-17 03:48:45 <theymos> Hidden, maybe.
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139 2012-07-17 03:50:21 <raad287_> hey
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141 2012-07-17 03:50:54 <raad287_> anyone try mining on an android?
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171 2012-07-17 05:07:40 <copumpkin> is there an overview of how a coinbase transaction differs from a regular one? It has a weird script with length limitations on it, it technically has no inputs (although from what I see it appears to have one input with an all-zero/-1 outpoint), and has no special limitations on outputs
172 2012-07-17 05:07:51 <copumpkin> any other special treatment I should give it?
173 2012-07-17 05:10:28 <luke-jr> no, it does have special limitations on outputs
174 2012-07-17 05:10:38 <luke-jr> they cannot be spent for 100 blocks
175 2012-07-17 05:10:55 <copumpkin> ah
176 2012-07-17 05:11:02 <copumpkin> that makes sense
177 2012-07-17 05:11:25 <luke-jr> not really, it's just annoying
178 2012-07-17 05:11:26 <luke-jr> :p
179 2012-07-17 05:11:44 <copumpkin> well, it makes sense from the other stuff I've heard about limitations of generated coins, that is
180 2012-07-17 05:11:49 <copumpkin> not sure about fundamentally :)
181 2012-07-17 05:12:05 <luke-jr> :p
182 2012-07-17 05:12:08 <copumpkin> I'm trying to decide whether I want to represent coinbase as a separate type or not
183 2012-07-17 05:12:14 <copumpkin> or whether I should roll it into my transaction type
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186 2012-07-17 05:27:42 <theymos> The format is the same.
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189 2012-07-17 05:31:10 <copumpkin> yeah, I know
190 2012-07-17 05:31:15 <copumpkin> but the script is less meaningful as script, right?
191 2012-07-17 05:31:28 <copumpkin> since it doesn't "do" anything
192 2012-07-17 05:31:54 <theymos> Yeah, I don't think the input's script even has to be valid. It's limited to 100 bytes, though.
193 2012-07-17 05:33:19 <copumpkin> yeah, the only thing I've seen in the script are a couple of pushes, ever
194 2012-07-17 05:33:33 <copumpkin> so yeah, I'm trying to decide whether it's worth keeping it separate or not
195 2012-07-17 05:33:44 <theymos> What are you doing?
196 2012-07-17 05:34:28 <copumpkin> writing my own implementation, or a subset of one for some things I want to play with (and for the sake of learning the protocol's ins and outs)
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199 2012-07-17 05:34:39 <amiller> erm, just had a unifying thought
200 2012-07-17 05:35:01 <amiller> we pick pick the longest chain because that has the highest likelihood of being what the majority prefer
201 2012-07-17 05:35:20 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
202 2012-07-17 05:35:42 <theymos> copumpkin: I'd treat them as regular transactions. That's what Bitcoin does.
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204 2012-07-17 05:35:59 <copumpkin> what is the significance of the bogus script in the coinbase?
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206 2012-07-17 05:36:34 <theymos> It's just arbitrary data. It's never evaluated.
207 2012-07-17 05:36:54 <copumpkin> so miners just make shit up and throw it in there?
208 2012-07-17 05:36:59 <copumpkin> within the length limits
209 2012-07-17 05:37:26 <doublec> some of it is merge mining information
210 2012-07-17 05:37:49 <copumpkin> so it's kind of just a blob field
211 2012-07-17 05:37:56 <copumpkin> meaning whatever you want it to mean
212 2012-07-17 05:38:02 <theymos> Yes. That's where Satoshi's "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" text went. The data necessary for merged mining also goes there, along with coinbase flags, and soon the block number (to fix a problem).
213 2012-07-17 05:38:06 <doublec> pretty much.
214 2012-07-17 05:38:35 <doublec> it's also where p2sh voting information went
215 2012-07-17 05:38:48 <copumpkin> so there's no fixed format for that data, I assume?
216 2012-07-17 05:38:57 <copumpkin> it depends on who's doing what with it
217 2012-07-17 05:39:08 <doublec> correct
218 2012-07-17 05:39:13 <copumpkin> [PushData "\255\255\NUL\GS",PushData "\EOT",PushData "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"]
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220 2012-07-17 05:39:22 <copumpkin> there's always that 4-byte pushdata first
221 2012-07-17 05:39:32 <copumpkin> from what I've seen
222 2012-07-17 05:39:45 <copumpkin> where pushdata is my unified push data opcode
223 2012-07-17 05:40:35 <theymos> I'm not sure whether that's required. I haven't seen where in the code that's enforced.
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225 2012-07-17 05:40:59 <copumpkin> so it's just that most people tend to put that in anyway?
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228 2012-07-17 05:44:01 <theymos> I guess. It might be required.
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230 2012-07-17 05:45:37 <copumpkin> alright, I'm going to keep them separate, I guess
231 2012-07-17 05:45:42 <copumpkin> I mean not separate
232 2012-07-17 05:45:44 <copumpkin> :P
233 2012-07-17 05:46:08 <copumpkin> roconnor doesn't do that in his implementation, but I'll rebel against the shackles
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235 2012-07-17 05:48:15 <theymos> I actually think that the pushdata op is because the Bitcoin client uses operator<< to insert data into a script, and that automatically adds the pushdata stuff.
236 2012-07-17 05:52:16 <copumpkin> oh :)
237 2012-07-17 05:52:23 <copumpkin> that's kinda funny
238 2012-07-17 05:52:32 <copumpkin> by the way, in bitcoin-qt I see an option to sign a message
239 2012-07-17 05:52:38 <copumpkin> but no option to verify a signature
240 2012-07-17 05:53:51 <theymos> I don't use bitcoin-qt, so I don't know about that. bitcoind can verify it.
241 2012-07-17 05:54:13 <copumpkin> yeah, was just wondering about easily accessible verification for the masses :)
242 2012-07-17 05:54:21 <luke-jr> copumpkin: 0.7 can verify
243 2012-07-17 05:54:28 <copumpkin> oh, cool
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247 2012-07-17 06:04:15 <Detritus> Any one from the forums around? I see they are backup, but I'm getting permission error when I try to log in
248 2012-07-17 06:04:35 <copumpkin> theymos was just here 10 seconds before you asked :P
249 2012-07-17 06:04:41 <Detritus> lol
250 2012-07-17 06:04:42 <copumpkin> MagicalTux might know what's going on
251 2012-07-17 06:05:13 <copumpkin> works for me, though
252 2012-07-17 06:09:54 <Detritus> yeah, it's fine for lots of people. I've tried clearing my cache, and several different machines. All produce the same errors if I supply my correct login credentals. If a put in the wrong password then ti takes me to the standard wrong password help page
253 2012-07-17 06:10:22 <Detritus> So I don't know what to think
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255 2012-07-17 06:12:30 <MagicalTux> still now?
256 2012-07-17 06:12:57 <MagicalTux> works just fine for me
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296 2012-07-17 07:57:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened issue 1603 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1603>
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300 2012-07-17 08:02:04 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1604 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1604>
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331 2012-07-17 09:44:16 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: laanwj opened pull request 1605 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1605>
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338 2012-07-17 10:08:11 <amiller> holy cow, bitcoin sort of rewards you for mining _off-peak_
339 2012-07-17 10:08:36 <amiller> that's a neat stabilizing thing
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358 2012-07-17 10:27:08 <cheesecake> im about to give up on slackware when i compile bitcoin-qt from source i get src/db.h:153:24: error: âclass Dbâ has no member named âexistsâ make: *** [build/main.o] Error 1
359 2012-07-17 10:27:21 <cheesecake> i have db4.8 installed
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371 2012-07-17 10:42:32 piuk has joined
372 2012-07-17 10:45:54 <piuk> Is http://bitcoin.org/dos the latest unlatched ddos issue or is there another more recent one?
373 2012-07-17 10:46:02 <piuk> *un-patched
374 2012-07-17 10:47:00 <[Tycho]> Hello, piuk.
375 2012-07-17 10:47:14 <piuk> Hi Tycho
376 2012-07-17 10:47:28 <Fanquake> Looks like it says it has been reported and fixed in 0.6.2 ?
377 2012-07-17 10:48:05 <piuk> I'm using a much older 0.5 version
378 2012-07-17 10:48:34 <[Tycho]> piuk: will you enable multisign option again ? :)
379 2012-07-17 10:48:35 <piuk> gavin told advise me to patch it with this commit https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/be8651dde7b59e50e8c443da71c706667803d06d
380 2012-07-17 10:49:21 <piuk> but I remember seeing another notice about a ddos vulnerability but never applied any patches
381 2012-07-17 10:49:44 <piuk> I'm having trouble with bitcoind consuming 100% CPU and 8 GB RAM
382 2012-07-17 10:50:30 <piuk> Tycho: Soon, need to finish updating the apps as well
383 2012-07-17 10:50:38 <cccp> why do you run such an old version?
384 2012-07-17 10:50:40 <[Tycho]> Cool.
385 2012-07-17 10:51:44 <kinlo> piuk: afaik there is another bug, but no info is given
386 2012-07-17 10:52:29 <kinlo> piuk: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures will list you the details as they are available
387 2012-07-17 10:53:01 <kinlo> the patch you gave is afaik for CVE-2012-2459, while the 0.6.3 is CVE-2012-3789
388 2012-07-17 10:53:14 <piuk> thats what I was looking for thank tycho
389 2012-07-17 10:53:32 <piuk> Is it known to be exploited in the wild yet?
390 2012-07-17 10:53:57 <kinlo> if it would be I guess more info would be known
391 2012-07-17 10:54:14 <kinlo> but I don't know what the exploit is, so I can't even begin to comment
392 2012-07-17 10:54:33 <kinlo> piuk: which version of bitcoind are you using?
393 2012-07-17 10:55:08 <justmoon> <piuk> I'm using a much older 0.5 version
394 2012-07-17 10:55:12 <kinlo> ic
395 2012-07-17 10:55:21 <kinlo> piuk: there are backports from luke on the 0.5 branch
396 2012-07-17 10:55:41 <kinlo> perhaps you should rebase on the latest version of the 0.5 branch?
397 2012-07-17 10:55:41 <piuk> I need patches
398 2012-07-17 10:55:45 <[Tycho]> piuk: try visiting IRC more often. Sometimes Gavin appears here and tells what patches should be applied.
399 2012-07-17 10:55:52 vigilyn has joined
400 2012-07-17 10:56:08 <[Tycho]> My bitcoin nodes are based on much older version of bitcoind :)
401 2012-07-17 10:56:41 <kinlo> I'm trying to keep up with my bitcoins for that very reason
402 2012-07-17 10:58:27 <piuk> are you having any issues tycho?
403 2012-07-17 10:59:58 <[Tycho]> piuk: no, I'm applying patches as needed.
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405 2012-07-17 11:00:40 <kinlo> [Tycho]: your mining server is build-in into the bitcoind?
406 2012-07-17 11:01:07 <[Tycho]> kinlo: well, partially. Mostly work generation and checking.
407 2012-07-17 11:01:58 <Fanquake> If anyones interested. I setup up electrum on my Raspberry Pi. Interested to know if anyone else has done anything similar, or has ideas/suggestions. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93724
408 2012-07-17 11:02:22 TD has joined
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410 2012-07-17 11:03:17 <justmoon> TD: hey! :)
411 2012-07-17 11:03:20 <TD> hey there
412 2012-07-17 11:03:57 <justmoon> TD: does the readme-qt.rst build process have to work as well to get the patch accepted or just the gitian one?
413 2012-07-17 11:04:30 <TD> i don't know .... i'd guess they all have to work. the qt build works OK for me on mac and linux. what's up with the windows version?
414 2012-07-17 11:04:50 sytse has joined
415 2012-07-17 11:05:39 <justmoon> well, there are a bunch of tickets related to it - it's currently broken, the makefiles are wrong (#1401), the deps package is outdated, so you have to compile everything yourself (#1155), there is apparently a boost patch you need that I couldn't find (#1563)
416 2012-07-17 11:08:06 <[Tycho]> Can someone tell me what is wrong with this address ? 17FSKMPAyXGR7EQziCqbVfwleGumRosQoh
417 2012-07-17 11:08:48 <justmoon> Tycho: invalid checksum
418 2012-07-17 11:10:22 <[Tycho]> I wonder why PHP checking code doesn't detects this.
419 2012-07-17 11:10:53 <justmoon> well what's the code?
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421 2012-07-17 11:20:36 <justmoon> TD: ok, so I managed to compile regular Bitcoin-Qt on windows now, I'm now going to look into cross-compiling leveldb
422 2012-07-17 11:27:53 <TD> justmoon: oh
423 2012-07-17 11:27:57 <TD> justmoon: ok, great
424 2012-07-17 11:28:04 <TD> i didn't realize some of the build files were broken ....
425 2012-07-17 11:28:17 <TD> [Tycho]: maybe the code doesn't verify the checksum correctly
426 2012-07-17 11:28:18 <TD> bbiab
427 2012-07-17 11:28:23 <justmoon> I think it's mostly gitian that matters these days
428 2012-07-17 11:28:52 <[Tycho]> TD: usually it fails when I try to change some letter.
429 2012-07-17 11:29:58 <[Tycho]> justmoon: I think it was this one - http://code.gogulski.com/bitcoin-php/class_bitcoin.html
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431 2012-07-17 11:31:09 <justmoon> [Tycho]: are you calling checkAddress or just addressToHash160?
432 2012-07-17 11:31:34 <[Tycho]> checkAddress
433 2012-07-17 11:32:18 <justmoon> hmm, it definitely checks the checksum, not sure how it's possible that the one you posted passes
434 2012-07-17 11:32:44 <justmoon> how did you generate that address to begin with? using the same library or from some other source?
435 2012-07-17 11:33:09 B0g4r7__ has joined
436 2012-07-17 11:33:14 <[Tycho]> May be my copy of code is broken... Can you try it on your machine ?
437 2012-07-17 11:33:31 <justmoon> sure one sec
438 2012-07-17 11:33:36 <[Tycho]> This address was submitted by one of my users.
439 2012-07-17 11:34:58 B0g4r7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
440 2012-07-17 11:35:15 <justmoon> passes on my end, too - I'll debug, give me a sec
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445 2012-07-17 11:50:28 <justmoon> ok, so 17FSKMPAyXGR7EQziCqbVfwleGumRosQoh base58decoded is
446 2012-07-17 11:50:30 <justmoon> 00448bb613a64368911c059b9849676cbbb37f641b5baea680 (actual)
447 2012-07-17 11:50:36 <justmoon> 00448bb613a64368911c059b9849676cbbb979ea4023aa4a80 (bitcoin-php)
448 2012-07-17 11:50:50 <justmoon> so there is something wrong with the base58 decoder in bitcoin-php
449 2012-07-17 11:51:23 <[Tycho]> Cool.
450 2012-07-17 11:51:34 <[Tycho]> But somehow it decodes other addresses...
451 2012-07-17 11:51:47 <justmoon> yeah you can see that it gets most of the address correct too
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456 2012-07-17 11:54:31 <justmoon> oooooohhh
457 2012-07-17 11:54:33 <justmoon> I get it
458 2012-07-17 11:54:44 <justmoon> the address contains an invalid character, a lowercase L
459 2012-07-17 11:55:22 <kinlo> so his user probably typed the address by hand?
460 2012-07-17 11:55:31 <justmoon> it should consider that invalid, instead it processes it as -1
461 2012-07-17 11:55:38 <[Tycho]> That would be surprising.
462 2012-07-17 11:55:55 <justmoon> kinlo: no, the checksum is correct, there is more going on
463 2012-07-17 11:56:01 <theorbtwo> s/l/1/ before you decode? Given it's 58, there should be a few other such pairs, too. Check the spec?
464 2012-07-17 11:56:34 <justmoon> kinlo: probably somebody generated the address either knowing about the bug in bitcoin-php or accidentally
465 2012-07-17 11:56:49 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
466 2012-07-17 11:56:56 <justmoon> but it would have been an implementation that also has the same "count-l-as-minus-one" bug that created the checksum
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469 2012-07-17 11:57:29 <justmoon> [Tycho]: I'll do a pull request for bitcoin-php
470 2012-07-17 11:57:40 <[Tycho]> Nice idea.
471 2012-07-17 11:57:41 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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474 2012-07-17 12:01:39 <kinlo> if they just did it to try to attack deepbit, they're looking really far
475 2012-07-17 12:01:49 <kinlo> but then again, a pool receives many attacks daily
476 2012-07-17 12:01:54 genjix has joined
477 2012-07-17 12:02:36 <[Tycho]> Well, I don't see how this may hurt deepbit. But nice try :)
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481 2012-07-17 12:02:52 <theorbtwo> Somewhere in bitcoin there is a very interesting paper on personal gain vs community forming, when there are money-like rewards.
482 2012-07-17 12:02:54 <genjix> hey, the date for _posts/events/2012-07-27-berlin.md was wrong, so i moved the file to _posts/events/2012-06-27-berlin.md
483 2012-07-17 12:03:12 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
484 2012-07-17 12:03:12 <genjix> it doesnt matter as the events section was commented, but it's good to be consistent anyway.
485 2012-07-17 12:03:30 <genjix> anyway send me a PM if there's any questions about that. afk now
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487 2012-07-17 12:04:58 <justmoon> [Tycho]: https://github.com/mikegogulski/bitcoin-php/pull/8
488 2012-07-17 12:05:39 <[Tycho]> justmoon: thanks :)
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490 2012-07-17 12:06:18 <sturles> How can I make a list of all addresses connected to the Bitcoinica thefts? I want to make sure that if any of those coins hit me, even a transaction fee, I'm able to to return them.
491 2012-07-17 12:06:38 Raziel__ has joined
492 2012-07-17 12:07:05 <kinlo> sturles: they can be washed so it is extreamly difficult to tell
493 2012-07-17 12:07:37 <sturles> I can see the coins are washed, so I want to automate the making of a list.
494 2012-07-17 12:08:31 RazielZ has joined
495 2012-07-17 12:08:37 <sturles> Every bitcoin can be traced all the way back to it's origin. I want to see if I receive any coins which can be traced back to the theft.
496 2012-07-17 12:09:46 <kinlo> that would make it possible to hurt people, just send coins to all the adresses and they will become "infected"
497 2012-07-17 12:10:20 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
498 2012-07-17 12:10:30 <theorbtwo> Is that true of every individual coin? If coin A is sent to an address that has 999999 other coins in it, can you tell if you got A, or one of the 999999 non-evil coins?
499 2012-07-17 12:10:48 <sturles> Of course, and so what? If I am one of the recipients, I want to refund the coins. Is that so bad?
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501 2012-07-17 12:11:27 <sturles> theorbtwo: It doesn't matter.
502 2012-07-17 12:11:49 <sturles> theorbtwo: I know I got coins from a tainted address.
503 2012-07-17 12:11:56 <theorbtwo> sturles: OK.
504 2012-07-17 12:12:57 <[Tycho]> Strange approach...
505 2012-07-17 12:13:53 Raziel_ has joined
506 2012-07-17 12:13:56 <[Tycho]> So if this taint will spread enough you will send all your incoming payments to the victim ?
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509 2012-07-17 12:15:12 <justmoon> if a few major sites start checking for the taint that might cause everyone else to want to check to so they don't end up accepting tainted coins
510 2012-07-17 12:15:29 <justmoon> it's pretty theoretical right now, but you could see how this might happen one day and spread pretty quickly
511 2012-07-17 12:15:42 <justmoon> before you know it, nobody wants tainted coins
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513 2012-07-17 12:16:19 <theorbtwo> OTOH, it's also an interesting way of mucking with the basic assumptions of number of coins available over time, which bitcoin was designed to be resistant to.
514 2012-07-17 12:17:03 <theorbtwo> Also, how do you avoid taint? There's no way that I see to verify that other people are acting in accordance with this, so even if you return tained coins to a blessed address, you are tainted anyway.
515 2012-07-17 12:17:48 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
516 2012-07-17 12:18:16 <justmoon> re: "If coin A is sent to an address that has 999999 other coins in it, can you tell if you got A, or one of the 999999 non-evil coins?" - you can tell coins apart that have been joined at an address as long as they haven't been joined into a single transaction
517 2012-07-17 12:18:31 <[Tycho]> sturles: actually yes, it's bad.
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519 2012-07-17 12:18:48 <justmoon> a mixing service would obviously join coins from different people into single transactions for just that reason
520 2012-07-17 12:20:57 <sturles> [Tycho]: Not all. If I receive 100 BTC from an address tainted with one coin, I'll return one coin.
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522 2012-07-17 12:21:23 <sturles> AFAIK MtGox already checks for tainted coins.
523 2012-07-17 12:21:38 <theorbtwo> justmoon: That'd remove most of my objections, then.
524 2012-07-17 12:21:42 <sturles> Requires identity check if you deposit tainted coins.
525 2012-07-17 12:22:56 RazielZ has joined
526 2012-07-17 12:23:20 <justmoon> theorbtwo: imho your objection stands, as I said, you can always combine coins from different people into a single output, so everything you said still applies
527 2012-07-17 12:23:43 <gmaxwell> sturles: they basically require identity check from everyone, just lazily... and they appear use a bunch of criteria to decide to bump up when they require it from you... including accessing via proxies, or depositing coins with an atypical theft density.
528 2012-07-17 12:23:50 <justmoon> just s/address/output/, so sturles should be asking for a list of tainted outputs, not tainted addresses
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531 2012-07-17 12:27:41 <sturles> Possibly. Addresses are useful because I can alert the seller if I buy coins which are sent from a tainted address. The seller can then investigate where the coins came from.
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559 2012-07-17 13:05:35 <Eliel_> sturles: There's one gotcha you haven't considered I think. If people start doing what you describe, people will start faking their coins being stolen.
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564 2012-07-17 13:09:37 <epscy> taint can never be more than an indicator
565 2012-07-17 13:09:38 <sturles> I'm not going to return a single satoshi unless I trust the coins were actually stolen.
566 2012-07-17 13:09:46 <epscy> due to the nature of bitcoin
567 2012-07-17 13:10:34 <sturles> Taint means the address has received stolen coins. The owner of the addrss should know where the stolen coins came from, and may be able to help with further investigation. Follow the coins.
568 2012-07-17 13:10:56 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
569 2012-07-17 13:12:32 <[Tycho]> sturles: so you will lose that part of payment ?
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571 2012-07-17 13:13:22 <epscy> sturles: but you don't need to give permission to recieve coins
572 2012-07-17 13:13:31 <epscy> so you may not know where they have come from
573 2012-07-17 13:13:43 <epscy> the problem is the coins getting stolen
574 2012-07-17 13:13:54 <epscy> fix that and everything else goes away
575 2012-07-17 13:15:59 <sturles> epscy: You are overcomplicating things which are normally not.
576 2012-07-17 13:16:42 <epscy> no, i think you are
577 2012-07-17 13:16:45 Raziel_ has joined
578 2012-07-17 13:17:07 <sturles> [Tycho]: I will either ask the other party to cooperate in finding the thief, or I'll probably just return the funds and cancel the deal.
579 2012-07-17 13:17:39 Raziel__ has joined
580 2012-07-17 13:18:14 <[Tycho]> Oh, I was thinking that you are planning to return those coins to the victim.
581 2012-07-17 13:18:15 <sturles> epscy: If I get a random payment of stolen funds without any known source, I'll of course just return the funds tho their owner. I don't see the problem?
582 2012-07-17 13:18:32 <[Tycho]> So this is a VERY bad idea and this will hurt Bitcoin.
583 2012-07-17 13:18:36 <epscy> yes but will the person you are transacting with do the same?
584 2012-07-17 13:18:40 <epscy> and actually
585 2012-07-17 13:18:44 <BlueMatt> the issue is, if you come in contact with the stolen funds, the cops may not look too well on doing anything with them
586 2012-07-17 13:18:45 <epscy> will you check that?
587 2012-07-17 13:18:50 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
588 2012-07-17 13:18:53 <epscy> every time you recieve btc?
589 2012-07-17 13:18:59 <sturles> [Tycho]: This is the goal, yes. Depends on how I get them. It may be just a transaction fee.
590 2012-07-17 13:19:26 <sturles> epscy: Of course!
591 2012-07-17 13:19:28 <epscy> BlueMatt: so it is easy to screw people over then
592 2012-07-17 13:19:28 <[Tycho]> And "canceling the deal" may look like scam sometimes.
593 2012-07-17 13:19:36 <epscy> just send them some tainted coins
594 2012-07-17 13:19:52 <epscy> in fact just claim your own coins were stolen
595 2012-07-17 13:19:58 <epscy> and send them to somebody
596 2012-07-17 13:20:04 <[Tycho]> All coins are equal and users don't have to check them before sending to anyone.
597 2012-07-17 13:20:12 <epscy> you don't actually have to get any real stolen coins
598 2012-07-17 13:20:22 <BlueMatt> epscy: thats a possible issue for everything, and thats why laws are written to deal with that, bitcoin is no different
599 2012-07-17 13:20:38 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
600 2012-07-17 13:20:48 <BlueMatt> a: "my n is stolen" b: "i was given that n"
601 2012-07-17 13:20:54 <epscy> great, we will all need lawyers...
602 2012-07-17 13:20:55 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter if its bitcoin or a parrot
603 2012-07-17 13:20:58 <sturles> If you want to taint yourself, just send them tainted coins. If you receive tainted coins from an unknown source, e.g. it suddenly appears in your transaction list, you don't lose anything by returning them.
604 2012-07-17 13:21:20 <epscy> sturles: who decides what coins are tainted?
605 2012-07-17 13:21:25 <epscy> and why?
606 2012-07-17 13:21:26 <sturles> I do.
607 2012-07-17 13:21:40 <epscy> heh ok
608 2012-07-17 13:21:45 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
609 2012-07-17 13:21:47 <epscy> i hope you do due diligence
610 2012-07-17 13:21:59 <epscy> and investigate every report of stolen coins fully
611 2012-07-17 13:22:09 <sturles> Because the coins are stolen. I mentioned the Bitcoinica funds, didn't I. The coins are stolen, and a police report has been filed.
612 2012-07-17 13:22:24 <Eliel_> sturles: so, how would you untaint an address (as in detect that the coins were returned)?
613 2012-07-17 13:22:27 <BlueMatt> epscy: or just get the police report...
614 2012-07-17 13:22:32 <epscy> oh ok, so you only care about big thefts
615 2012-07-17 13:22:47 <sturles> Eliel_: By returning them to an "untaint" address belonging to the rightful owner.
616 2012-07-17 13:22:52 unclemantis has joined
617 2012-07-17 13:23:17 <epscy> the point is it is concievable that the bitcoinica funds will end up in the wallets of people who had nothing to do with the theft
618 2012-07-17 13:23:38 <epscy> they may be several links away from the thief
619 2012-07-17 13:23:40 <sturles> epscy: Please don't just make up something and present it as my intentions. I never said thet.
620 2012-07-17 13:23:42 <BlueMatt> the point is it is concievable that the cash from a recent bank robbery will end up in the wallets of people who had nothing to do with the theft
621 2012-07-17 13:23:44 <unclemantis> i have the converting Satoshi to BTC decimal down pat. How do I do the reverse? Convert decimal to Satoshi? example. 1.25 is 125000000 satoshi
622 2012-07-17 13:24:07 Raziel_ has joined
623 2012-07-17 13:24:18 <sturles> epscy: Of course! Which is why I want to follow the coins.
624 2012-07-17 13:24:21 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
625 2012-07-17 13:24:27 <epscy> BlueMatt: yup
626 2012-07-17 13:24:35 <Eliel_> sturles: the problem with what you're proposing is that there's no way, aside from just trusting the person whose coins were stolen, to verify that they actually were stolen.
627 2012-07-17 13:25:22 <unclemantis> number mind, i figured it out
628 2012-07-17 13:25:27 <BlueMatt> epscy: I really fail to see how any of this is a problem, you can't say people shouldn't be checking coins to see if they are stolen, if they didn't it would be possible that they get screwed in court
629 2012-07-17 13:25:42 <epscy> it doesn't matter really, anyone who seriously follows taint is going to fail to do business with bitcoin
630 2012-07-17 13:25:48 <sturles> If someone robs an ATM, the coins will get paint stains. If people don't check the bills when they receive them, they will end up using bills with paint stains. And the police will be very interested. It is in everybodys interest to check that your bills don't have large purple stains of paint.
631 2012-07-17 13:25:51 <unclemantis> btc * 100,000,000
632 2012-07-17 13:25:58 <BlueMatt> epscy: so whether you like it or not, doing due diligence on coins you receive as an exchange (and possibly further) is legally required
633 2012-07-17 13:26:11 RazielZ has joined
634 2012-07-17 13:26:21 <BlueMatt> epscy: aml are strict as fuck
635 2012-07-17 13:26:27 <epscy> yes
636 2012-07-17 13:26:31 <epscy> and gox do that
637 2012-07-17 13:26:36 <sturles> Eliel_: So you basically claim that the whole Bitcoinica story is fake. Everyone have all their balance intact?
638 2012-07-17 13:26:40 <epscy> but they don't rely on it solely
639 2012-07-17 13:26:41 <BlueMatt> (unless you're hsbc ;) )
640 2012-07-17 13:26:44 [\\\] has joined
641 2012-07-17 13:26:48 <Eliel_> sturles: I'm not making any claims on any specific case.
642 2012-07-17 13:26:57 <epscy> because rocking up with tainted coins doesn't mean you stole them
643 2012-07-17 13:27:05 <epscy> and the fact you seem to be overlooking
644 2012-07-17 13:27:08 unclemantis has quit (Client Quit)
645 2012-07-17 13:27:11 <epscy> is that bitcoin is global
646 2012-07-17 13:27:14 <BlueMatt> epscy: ofc it doesnt no one said that
647 2012-07-17 13:27:26 <Eliel_> sturles: for my argument, it does not matter if bitcoinica story is fake or not.
648 2012-07-17 13:27:36 <epscy> there is no police who have juristiction
649 2012-07-17 13:27:39 <sturles> Eliel_: Yes, you are. "the problem with what you're proposing is that there's no way, aside from just trusting the person whose coins were stolen, to verify that they actually were stolen." The only specific case I have referred to is the Bitcoinica case.
650 2012-07-17 13:27:39 <BlueMatt> epscy: yes, last I checked most financial institutions are global - and still have to follow all relevant laws
651 2012-07-17 13:27:45 <BlueMatt> epscy: wtf?
652 2012-07-17 13:27:49 <BlueMatt> epscy: you are kidding right?
653 2012-07-17 13:28:03 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
654 2012-07-17 13:28:04 <epscy> no
655 2012-07-17 13:28:25 <Eliel_> sturles: if what you're becomes widely accepted standard practise, the general case matters very much.
656 2012-07-17 13:28:30 <BlueMatt> if Im doing business in the us in bitcoin, the us cops have jurisdiction
657 2012-07-17 13:28:30 <epscy> dollars are hard to smuggle internationally
658 2012-07-17 13:28:34 <epscy> bitcoins aren't
659 2012-07-17 13:28:49 <epscy> BlueMatt: and the person pays you in bitcoin
660 2012-07-17 13:28:51 <BlueMatt> uhh...no dollars are easy to send between countries
661 2012-07-17 13:28:53 <epscy> they live in africa
662 2012-07-17 13:28:59 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
663 2012-07-17 13:29:01 <BlueMatt> so what? I still have to follow US aml
664 2012-07-17 13:29:02 <epscy> and their coins are tainted
665 2012-07-17 13:29:11 <epscy> and the US police go... "herp derp"
666 2012-07-17 13:29:12 <BlueMatt> interpol?
667 2012-07-17 13:29:20 <sturles> epscy: Yes, bitcoin is global. Local laws apply. In my country the law forbids buying or selling stolen property.
668 2012-07-17 13:29:37 <BlueMatt> epscy: you clearly dont understand how jurisdiction works
669 2012-07-17 13:29:41 <epscy> sturles: theoretically yes, local laws apply
670 2012-07-17 13:29:56 <Eliel_> sturles: so, if you do it now, for bitcoinica case, it'll be difficult to justify not doing it for future cases too. Regardless of whether or not your believe they're real thefts.
671 2012-07-17 13:29:56 <BlueMatt> no, not theoretically, in practice
672 2012-07-17 13:30:05 <sturles> epscy: And I'm more concerned by the law than if the local police are able to find me or not.
673 2012-07-17 13:30:06 <epscy> in practice it will be very hard to apply this kind of law to bitcoin
674 2012-07-17 13:30:32 <sturles> Eliel_: No.
675 2012-07-17 13:30:32 <BlueMatt> epscy: uhhhh...no it wont
676 2012-07-17 13:30:35 <coiax> [B[B14:24 < epscy> in practice it will be very hard to apply this kind of law to bitcoin
677 2012-07-17 13:30:39 <coiax> Shit, sorry
678 2012-07-17 13:30:43 <coiax> Stupid middle mouse button
679 2012-07-17 13:30:48 zooko has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
680 2012-07-17 13:30:52 Raziel_ has joined
681 2012-07-17 13:31:06 <epscy> yeah i think this is moral argument for some of you, reality is won't place nice with it
682 2012-07-17 13:31:26 <BlueMatt> no, this isnt a moral argument for anyone here afaik
683 2012-07-17 13:31:37 <BlueMatt> this is a "Im gonna protect my ass so I dont end up in jail" argument
684 2012-07-17 13:31:52 Raziel__ has joined
685 2012-07-17 13:31:57 <helo> i.e. avoid accepting bitcoin
686 2012-07-17 13:31:59 <epscy> well if that is seriously a problem then bitcoin is dead imho
687 2012-07-17 13:32:13 <epscy> someone can send you coins
688 2012-07-17 13:32:17 <epscy> and you end up in jail
689 2012-07-17 13:32:21 <BlueMatt> its a problem for all currencies and financial institutions, but I dont think dollars are dead
690 2012-07-17 13:32:28 <epscy> BlueMatt: what is your address?
691 2012-07-17 13:32:34 <helo> i used to own all bitcoin, and everybody stole it from me. please don't accept any bitcoin, as it was all stolen from me.
692 2012-07-17 13:32:35 <epscy> i want to send you some coin
693 2012-07-17 13:32:43 <epscy> and then i am going to report them stolen
694 2012-07-17 13:32:49 <epscy> and get a police report
695 2012-07-17 13:33:02 d4de has joined
696 2012-07-17 13:33:09 <BlueMatt> sturles: what are you watching for stolen coins on anyway?
697 2012-07-17 13:33:12 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
698 2012-07-17 13:33:54 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
699 2012-07-17 13:34:22 <helo> the sender chooses which coins to send, so the recipient doesn't really have much they can do aside from delete their private keys?
700 2012-07-17 13:34:35 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
701 2012-07-17 13:34:41 <sturles> BlueMatt: What do you mean?
702 2012-07-17 13:35:33 RainbowDashh is now known as PrincessLunaa
703 2012-07-17 13:35:36 <BlueMatt> epscy: again, I think you are failing to understand that what you are saying is also possible for dollars or really any object, if it were such a big problem, holding any good would be too much of a threat...but let me remind you that there have been cases of convictions over stolen digital goods, so whether you like it or not, if you are holding stolen goods and cant prove that you received them and didnt steal them yourself, you could get
704 2012-07-17 13:35:36 <BlueMatt> screwed
705 2012-07-17 13:35:38 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
706 2012-07-17 13:35:41 <epscy> helo: but apparently they are obligated to check everything they recieve against the centralized list of bitcoin thefts and send the coins back if they are tainted....
707 2012-07-17 13:35:47 <BlueMatt> sturles: what site do you run that you are doing this on?
708 2012-07-17 13:35:50 <helo> ahh "send it back"
709 2012-07-17 13:36:02 <BlueMatt> no, you arent obligated to send it back
710 2012-07-17 13:36:09 <BlueMatt> it depends on your local regulations
711 2012-07-17 13:36:17 <BlueMatt> but, usually, you should be returning the coins to the cops
712 2012-07-17 13:36:30 <epscy> BlueMatt: i would hope the burden of proof is quite high
713 2012-07-17 13:36:37 <BlueMatt> thats up to the cops
714 2012-07-17 13:36:43 <BlueMatt> and local regulations
715 2012-07-17 13:36:58 <BlueMatt> (and, yes, usually the burden of proof is high)
716 2012-07-17 13:37:04 <epscy> hopefully if i stuffed some stolen dollars through your letterbox whilst you were out you would get sent to prison
717 2012-07-17 13:37:14 <epscy> would not
718 2012-07-17 13:37:20 <epscy> but who can say
719 2012-07-17 13:37:26 <epscy> the US is a messed up place
720 2012-07-17 13:37:31 <epscy> glad i don't live there
721 2012-07-17 13:37:32 Raziel_ has joined
722 2012-07-17 13:38:27 <BlueMatt> ofc not, and ofc you wouldnt be sent to prison for getting stolen bitcoin sent to your address randomly, but if you sell goods to someone paying with stolen objects, you could get screwed for aml if you cant give the cops some lead to go on
723 2012-07-17 13:38:44 <BlueMatt> whether you like it or not, thats the way it is
724 2012-07-17 13:38:49 slush has joined
725 2012-07-17 13:39:14 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter what you think of "this will kill bitcoin" or "this isnt right" or whatever, it really doesnt matter...all that matters is what the law says here and what you have to follow
726 2012-07-17 13:39:28 <epscy> the point i am trying to make, is that even if you get coins directly from the thief
727 2012-07-17 13:39:35 <BlueMatt> if it kills bitcoin, then in a year or two, bitcoin will be dead, ok
728 2012-07-17 13:39:40 <epscy> plausible deniability is high
729 2012-07-17 13:39:56 <epscy> i don't know officer
730 2012-07-17 13:40:03 <epscy> someone just sent them to me
731 2012-07-17 13:40:12 <epscy> prove that isn't the case
732 2012-07-17 13:40:13 <BlueMatt> plausible deniability is high for most most stolen goods, but you still have to pay attention
733 2012-07-17 13:40:13 <helo> s/officer/judge/
734 2012-07-17 13:40:21 PrincessLunaa is now known as PrincessLunaaa
735 2012-07-17 13:40:28 <BlueMatt> go look at the lengths pawn shops go to to document where they get all their stuff, etc
736 2012-07-17 13:40:47 <BlueMatt> and if they didnt pay attention, they would get fucked all the time
737 2012-07-17 13:40:51 <BlueMatt> thats just the way it is
738 2012-07-17 13:41:14 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
739 2012-07-17 13:42:30 <sturles> BlueMatt: I trade hundreds, sometimes thousands of coins every week here on IRC.
740 2012-07-17 13:42:33 <BlueMatt> even regular merchants get fucked...what was the case where a used car saleswomen was just selling cars to people and happened to sell several cars to a gang who was paying for them using drug money....the lady ended up with min sentencing of several years in jail for doing nothing more than selling cars
741 2012-07-17 13:42:53 <BlueMatt> (ok, she ended up getting a presidential pardon, but still...)
742 2012-07-17 13:43:00 <helo> sturles: guilty!
743 2012-07-17 13:43:01 <BlueMatt> IIRC
744 2012-07-17 13:43:44 <sturles> helo: ?
745 2012-07-17 13:44:09 Raziel__ has joined
746 2012-07-17 13:44:28 <helo> sturles: i'm sure there's some crime you could be charged for with enough scrutiny :)
747 2012-07-17 13:45:21 <BlueMatt> epscy: let me make this clear: I agree its not necessarily good for bitcoin because it could end up causing issues for innocent people, but its also not good for bitcoin to make it even easier to trade stolen funds and launder those into other goods, so whether we like it or not, people have to pay attention to crap like that and watch for it
748 2012-07-17 13:45:38 <sturles> helo: Why?
749 2012-07-17 13:45:51 maaku has joined
750 2012-07-17 13:47:32 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
751 2012-07-17 13:47:46 <justmoon> BlueMatt: are you running an automated builder against mike's leveldb branch?
752 2012-07-17 13:47:59 <BlueMatt> no...jenkins is down :(
753 2012-07-17 13:48:02 <BlueMatt> why?
754 2012-07-17 13:48:30 <justmoon> I'm working on making leveldb work on windows - it'd be helpful to get a link to that builder when it's back up
755 2012-07-17 13:49:18 <BlueMatt> might be a while... (but I did provide a tar.xz that you can untar on ubuntu and xcompile bitcoin for windows very easily with, if you want that)
756 2012-07-17 13:49:20 <epscy> there are two issues which make this different from dollars
757 2012-07-17 13:49:36 <epscy> 1) trusting that coins are actually stolen
758 2012-07-17 13:49:41 <justmoon> BlueMatt: that'd be helpful, yeah!
759 2012-07-17 13:49:52 <BlueMatt> epscy: yep, they are very different from dollars, but what bitcoin isnt different from are other digital goods such as money in rpgs
760 2012-07-17 13:49:53 <helo> sturles: i'm just joking really, but with the plethora of laws i wouldn't be surprised if most people who trade bitcoin on a regular basis have violated some of them
761 2012-07-17 13:49:58 <BlueMatt> (which, btw, have been successfully prosecuted)
762 2012-07-17 13:50:06 <epscy> 2) juristiction, coins can be stolen in the US, spent in africa and then sent back to the US
763 2012-07-17 13:50:08 <helo> BlueMatt: how do you tell if bitcoin has been stolen?
764 2012-07-17 13:50:43 <BlueMatt> helo: thats up to the person reporting the theft and local laws
765 2012-07-17 13:50:48 <epscy> those two things are going to make it extremely difficult for most bitcoin thefts to be resolved
766 2012-07-17 13:51:06 Raziel_ has joined
767 2012-07-17 13:51:14 <BlueMatt> epscy: again, 1) is for local authorities to address, and 2) doesnt matter
768 2012-07-17 13:51:31 <epscy> i will concede that an entity in the US that regularly receives stolen coins from people in the US may have trouble with the authorities
769 2012-07-17 13:51:32 ZephyrVoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
770 2012-07-17 13:51:45 <helo> BlueMatt: what is it that everyone who receives bitcoin must do to satisfy that they weren't complicit in receiving stolen goods?
771 2012-07-17 13:51:47 <sturles> helo: I even report my bitcoins to the tax authorities. They have not yet figured ot what it is, so I don't pay any taxes for them. :-)
772 2012-07-17 13:51:53 <epscy> but it is unlikely to be productive in any way due to 2)
773 2012-07-17 13:52:26 <epscy> i think you guys are seriously underestimating the hassle to keeping track of taint
774 2012-07-17 13:52:33 <epscy> ok i received some coins
775 2012-07-17 13:52:42 <epscy> how do i know if they are stolen or not?
776 2012-07-17 13:52:54 <epscy> do i check with every police authority in the world?
777 2012-07-17 13:52:59 RazielZ has joined
778 2012-07-17 13:53:02 <epscy> or just my local one
779 2012-07-17 13:53:07 <upb> you must check with the Stolen The Gathering Verification Exchange
780 2012-07-17 13:53:09 <upb> STGVX
781 2012-07-17 13:53:22 <BlueMatt> justmoon: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:2431d5f3c993122e80f9f94c957806b2c9e24905&dn=ubuntu.tar.xz&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80
782 2012-07-17 13:53:23 <epscy> what if they are reported stolen after i have received and spent them?
783 2012-07-17 13:53:32 <justmoon> BlueMatt: thanks!
784 2012-07-17 13:53:49 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, still no luck finding that bug in bitcoinjs?
785 2012-07-17 13:53:52 <BlueMatt> now if genjix or luke-jr would help me seed again
786 2012-07-17 13:54:05 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
787 2012-07-17 13:54:06 <SomeoneWeird> been looking myself, cant seem to find anything
788 2012-07-17 13:54:06 <sturles> epscy: Do you often receive boins randomly from people you don't have a single piece of information about?
789 2012-07-17 13:54:18 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: it's not happening for me anymore >.<
790 2012-07-17 13:54:21 <epscy> sturles: me? no
791 2012-07-17 13:54:30 <SomeoneWeird> :O why?
792 2012-07-17 13:54:40 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
793 2012-07-17 13:54:47 <epscy> might be better to ask that question to someone who is selling vps or vpn for bitcoin
794 2012-07-17 13:54:56 <BlueMatt> epscy: I dont care how hard it is to keep track of taint, or how hard it is to follow coins between countries, or how hard any part of it is, its the law and you have to comply
795 2012-07-17 13:55:07 <justmoon> I think it depends on the order that dependencies are included whether the circular dependency gets resolved or results in an undefined class
796 2012-07-17 13:55:09 <epscy> ok robocop
797 2012-07-17 13:55:17 <sturles> epscy: Not many people do. Most people receiving stolen goods are able to revel something, a little piece of the puzzle, about where the coins came from.
798 2012-07-17 13:55:30 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: where are you getting it - in the test suite or just when running the daemon?
799 2012-07-17 13:55:35 <epscy> i can believe that about dollars
800 2012-07-17 13:55:46 <epscy> i think bitcoin is and will be very different though
801 2012-07-17 13:56:08 <sturles> Even those selling VPN for bitcoin usually have an email address, IP of people logging in and access to information on the server.
802 2012-07-17 13:56:14 <BlueMatt> Im not trying to compare with dollars, Im trying to compare with other digital goods
803 2012-07-17 13:56:24 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
804 2012-07-17 13:56:25 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, var b = require('bitcoinjs'); works fine, but i get it when i try to create a node
805 2012-07-17 13:56:30 <BlueMatt> which can be reported stolen, can be tracked down, and have been successfully prosecuted before
806 2012-07-17 13:56:43 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: ic, can you put your exact script on pastebin?
807 2012-07-17 13:56:55 <SomeoneWeird> lol
808 2012-07-17 13:56:57 <BlueMatt> justmoon: does bitcoinjs have a webwallet example built-in
809 2012-07-17 13:57:14 <justmoon> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui
810 2012-07-17 13:57:27 <BlueMatt> does anyone run one for public use?
811 2012-07-17 13:57:41 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, http://pastie.org/private/2yxloqf33fgl9kublxq
812 2012-07-17 13:57:55 <helo> BlueMatt: i think the law takes the difficulty of determining whether received goods are stolen into account... if you did not have any reason to believe the goods were stolen, how can you get into trouble?
813 2012-07-17 13:57:59 <SomeoneWeird> updated to latest git btw
814 2012-07-17 13:58:01 Raziel_ has joined
815 2012-07-17 13:58:03 slush has joined
816 2012-07-17 13:58:08 <BlueMatt> helo: absolutely it does
817 2012-07-17 13:58:09 <justmoon> BlueMatt: no, but you can use trucoin's exit node and just set that in config/config.js
818 2012-07-17 13:58:31 <BlueMatt> helo: at least in the us, I believe you have to pretty thoroughly prove it was stolen
819 2012-07-17 13:58:33 <justmoon> then you pretty much just have to clone the repository change that one file and it should work
820 2012-07-17 13:58:44 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: thx
821 2012-07-17 13:59:06 Raziel__ has joined
822 2012-07-17 13:59:47 <BlueMatt> justmoon: btw, once you've gotten that tar, untar to /home/ubuntu (no need to make a user) cd to bitcoin, git reset --hard to whatever repo you want, ../qmake-script.sh && make
823 2012-07-17 13:59:48 <justmoon> jeremias: got your email, when did you test it? i just did a fix a couple of minutes ago
824 2012-07-17 13:59:51 <BlueMatt> (I think)
825 2012-07-17 14:00:00 <jeremias> justmoon: I'll try again
826 2012-07-17 14:00:02 gavinandresen has joined
827 2012-07-17 14:00:02 <justmoon> BlueMatt: ok, thanks
828 2012-07-17 14:00:16 <jeremias> hmm repo is up to date
829 2012-07-17 14:00:16 <BlueMatt> oh, but install wine + mingw first
830 2012-07-17 14:00:26 <justmoon> jeremias: it was a change to the node, not the repo
831 2012-07-17 14:00:35 <justmoon> BlueMatt: got it
832 2012-07-17 14:00:39 cande has joined
833 2012-07-17 14:00:40 <jeremias> ok, I'll try again
834 2012-07-17 14:00:56 <BlueMatt> (and you may need to change prefixes to the compiler depending on which version of mingw you use, but it should be moderately obvious if you edit the qmake-script)
835 2012-07-17 14:00:58 <epscy> thing is, due to 2), it is very easy to "wash" coins
836 2012-07-17 14:01:09 <BlueMatt> epscy: thats why aml exist
837 2012-07-17 14:01:15 <epscy> what is aml?
838 2012-07-17 14:01:20 <SomeoneWeird> anti money laundering
839 2012-07-17 14:01:22 <BlueMatt> anti-money-laundering laws
840 2012-07-17 14:01:35 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
841 2012-07-17 14:01:39 <epscy> yeah, i think they are going to struggle with bitcoin
842 2012-07-17 14:01:55 <BlueMatt> they struggle with any digital goods, but that doesnt mean they dont apply
843 2012-07-17 14:02:14 <epscy> quite
844 2012-07-17 14:02:15 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, if you need any help debugging just ping me
845 2012-07-17 14:02:17 <justmoon> BlueMatt: I haven't tested the bitcoinjs-gui in a while, so let me know if it works - also: the trucoin exit node is non-ssl at the moment, will hopefully be fixed again soon (certificate issues)
846 2012-07-17 14:02:18 <BlueMatt> if you are doing a big business of any kind, you still need to ask a lawyer about which laws may apply to you
847 2012-07-17 14:02:39 <helo> if you can see that some coin you received was stolen 30 inputs and 100 blocks ago, is it stolen?
848 2012-07-17 14:02:54 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
849 2012-07-17 14:03:04 <BlueMatt> justmoon: I was asking mostly to see if anyone ran an open-source backed webwallet, Id really like to see one that supports multisig because that would be awesome, but...
850 2012-07-17 14:03:36 <epscy> helo: exactly
851 2012-07-17 14:03:37 slush2 has joined
852 2012-07-17 14:03:46 <epscy> eventually all coins will be stolen
853 2012-07-17 14:03:49 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
854 2012-07-17 14:04:00 <epscy> and determining the "level of taint" is not an exact science
855 2012-07-17 14:04:15 <BlueMatt> helo: inal, but afaik, the law says yes
856 2012-07-17 14:04:15 <justmoon> BlueMatt: define "supports multisig"
857 2012-07-17 14:04:15 <epscy> because it involves people transacting with each other
858 2012-07-17 14:04:30 <BlueMatt> justmoon: ie requires confirmation from local node and webwallet both to send
859 2012-07-17 14:04:33 ZephyrVoid has joined
860 2012-07-17 14:04:37 egecko_ has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
861 2012-07-17 14:04:44 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
862 2012-07-17 14:04:48 Raziel_ has joined
863 2012-07-17 14:05:23 <BlueMatt> anywhoo, I think we've beaten this issue to death, in the end its up to individuals and how much risk they want to take...in any case ask a lawyer (plus bernake is gonna speak soon, and I wanna see this)
864 2012-07-17 14:05:59 * BlueMatt hopes bernake will call congress "a bunch of goddamn preschoolers who dont know how to behave" but I suppose thats unlikely...
865 2012-07-17 14:06:09 <justmoon> BlueMatt: hmm, is there a protocol yet for two nodes to sign something together? I don't like coming up with my own protocols because they tend to get ignored, then somebody else invents the same thing and everybody uses that
866 2012-07-17 14:06:18 <BlueMatt> justmoon: nope
867 2012-07-17 14:06:22 <BlueMatt> or...not afaik
868 2012-07-17 14:06:30 RazielZ has joined
869 2012-07-17 14:06:39 <BlueMatt> there has been some work on making one, but not that is very far afaik
870 2012-07-17 14:06:53 <justmoon> actually, I think yellowhat was working on that at the hackathon
871 2012-07-17 14:07:09 <BlueMatt> oh, hmm...well thats quite possible
872 2012-07-17 14:07:17 <gavinandresen> justmoon: https://gist.github.com/2217885 organized my high-level thoughts on multiple devices signing something
873 2012-07-17 14:07:53 <justmoon> gavinandresen: just opened the link - already loving the headlines :P
874 2012-07-17 14:08:20 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
875 2012-07-17 14:08:55 bitllc_ is now known as bitllc
876 2012-07-17 14:08:58 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
877 2012-07-17 14:09:35 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
878 2012-07-17 14:10:09 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
879 2012-07-17 14:10:14 <justmoon> gavinandresen: btw, if you want web wallets to be able to verify/resolve aliases then they need to be HTTP(S) based, not DNS-based :)
880 2012-07-17 14:11:05 <gavinandresen> justmoon: good point.
881 2012-07-17 14:11:21 p0s has joined
882 2012-07-17 14:11:35 <MagicalTux> justmoon: why not ?
883 2012-07-17 14:11:43 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
884 2012-07-17 14:12:00 Raziel_ has joined
885 2012-07-17 14:12:06 <justmoon> gavinandresen: TD recently mentioned the idea of adding web socket support to bitcoin-qt - if that ever happens, I'll write an SPV web wallet ;)
886 2012-07-17 14:12:14 <BlueMatt> hey, a MagicalTux on -dev, wow thats been a while
887 2012-07-17 14:12:24 <justmoon> MagicalTux: because I can't read raw DNS in the browser? or am I missing something?
888 2012-07-17 14:12:57 [\\\] has joined
889 2012-07-17 14:13:05 Raziel__ has joined
890 2012-07-17 14:13:23 <MagicalTux> justmoon: good enough, I guess I'll stop asking question at 11pm after spending all day talking with lawyers
891 2012-07-17 14:13:38 <BlueMatt> yuck...lawyers...
892 2012-07-17 14:14:07 <yellowhat> someone called?. i was working on multisig-TX for bitcoinj
893 2012-07-17 14:14:23 <BlueMatt> how far did you get/do you have public code?
894 2012-07-17 14:14:54 <yellowhat> yes there is some public code, but not that part that you hope for. we started adding basic multisig support to bitcoinj
895 2012-07-17 14:14:55 <yellowhat> code.google.com/r/andreaspeterssonat-hackathon
896 2012-07-17 14:15:03 <yellowhat> thats the clone
897 2012-07-17 14:15:22 <BlueMatt> ah ok
898 2012-07-17 14:15:30 <yellowhat> as a start, the bitcoinj needs all the keys already in the wallet.
899 2012-07-17 14:15:44 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
900 2012-07-17 14:16:14 <yellowhat> how it will process partially signed TX is not fully clear but we should definately agree to some kind of out-of-band protocol. there is a design document by TD
901 2012-07-17 14:16:40 <BlueMatt> theres also one by gavin, linked up a few lines
902 2012-07-17 14:16:41 <yellowhat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qvkHrSkVMvVEovUAPhwwhDxBd4LdPMYnbWZHdRBNR08/edit
903 2012-07-17 14:16:46 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
904 2012-07-17 14:18:38 Raziel_ has joined
905 2012-07-17 14:19:41 D34TH has joined
906 2012-07-17 14:19:54 <BlueMatt> D34TH: wanna help seed the tar.xz for justmoon?
907 2012-07-17 14:20:02 <D34TH> sure bauce
908 2012-07-17 14:20:17 <D34TH> sec its loading
909 2012-07-17 14:20:18 <justmoon> <3
910 2012-07-17 14:20:33 <SomeoneWeird> lol
911 2012-07-17 14:21:41 * jgarzik perks up
912 2012-07-17 14:21:41 <D34TH> justmoon, 84.72xxxxx?
913 2012-07-17 14:21:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: what are we seeding? :)
914 2012-07-17 14:22:05 <jgarzik> a blockchain?
915 2012-07-17 14:22:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: a tar which contains all the bitcoin deps xcompiled for windows
916 2012-07-17 14:22:14 <D34TH> nah, build tools
917 2012-07-17 14:22:15 <BlueMatt> nothing particularly exciting
918 2012-07-17 14:22:22 <justmoon> D34TH: that sounds like me :)
919 2012-07-17 14:22:24 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
920 2012-07-17 14:22:30 <D34TH> LOL seeding @ 512 KB/s
921 2012-07-17 14:23:15 <D34TH> justmoon: going fast now?
922 2012-07-17 14:23:20 <MagicalTux> btw can anyone here write a minimal ecdsa implementation (just what's needed for bitcoin) using gnu gmp ?
923 2012-07-17 14:23:27 <justmoon> D34TH: yep, thx
924 2012-07-17 14:24:58 <justmoon> MagicalTux: what worthy cause would one be supporting with such an endeavor?
925 2012-07-17 14:25:24 <justmoon> (and yes, I consider getting paid a worthy cause :P)
926 2012-07-17 14:25:43 copumpkin has joined
927 2012-07-17 14:25:56 <MagicalTux> justmoon: removing need of a extra lib to do bitcoin with my bitcoin php module, which would allow me to release the bitcoin client used by mtgox.com (or at least in some parts)
928 2012-07-17 14:25:59 RazielZ has joined
929 2012-07-17 14:26:41 <t7> I just rang up one of the supplier for some shitty software we use at work. Said i dont have the password because the user is on holiday, and after a few mins i managed to get the root password without giving anything more than the company name and my position as "IT manager" ...
930 2012-07-17 14:26:44 Raziel__ has joined
931 2012-07-17 14:26:59 <t7> security is for losers
932 2012-07-17 14:27:00 <SomeoneWeird> haha damn t7
933 2012-07-17 14:27:18 <D34TH> magicaltux: if you openssl supports it you can make it inside php because php uses the openssl extension
934 2012-07-17 14:27:29 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
935 2012-07-17 14:27:35 <MagicalTux> D34TH: PHP doesn't expose openssl ecdsa
936 2012-07-17 14:27:38 <MagicalTux> (yet)
937 2012-07-17 14:27:40 <t7> and this has LOADS of personal information that we would get fined hundreds of thousands for a breach, data protection act and all that
938 2012-07-17 14:28:22 <D34TH> magicaltux: openssl_get_md_methods()
939 2012-07-17 14:29:05 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
940 2012-07-17 14:30:01 <MagicalTux> hm
941 2012-07-17 14:30:02 <MagicalTux> ecdsa-with-SHA1 ?
942 2012-07-17 14:30:05 <justmoon> D34TH: ecdsa-with-SHA1 is useless, we'd need ecdsa-secp256k1-with-double-SHA256 ^^
943 2012-07-17 14:30:32 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
944 2012-07-17 14:31:01 <justmoon> but there is a point to be made that it may be easier to expose openssl's ecdsa functionality with some patches to php rather than write your own from scratch, no?
945 2012-07-17 14:31:01 Maged has joined
946 2012-07-17 14:31:02 <MagicalTux> I wrote a lazy php ext that uses (and actually includes) cryptopp to provide the required methods to build bitcoin transactions and verify them
947 2012-07-17 14:31:24 <MagicalTux> justmoon: just less portable, while gmp is already quite common
948 2012-07-17 14:32:03 <justmoon> it'd be just as portable as php, no?
949 2012-07-17 14:32:23 <D34TH> MagicalTux: SimpleECDSA?
950 2012-07-17 14:33:15 Raziel_ has joined
951 2012-07-17 14:34:20 <MagicalTux> justmoon: I mean, it'll take time until distros & hosting providers update to the new patched version
952 2012-07-17 14:34:22 <vigilyn> what on earth does this mean? [2012-07-17 10:26:11] InvalidChainFound: invalid block=00000000000001d38cbe height=189498 work=391089284232242410659 date=07/17/12 14:25:03
953 2012-07-17 14:35:11 RazielZ has joined
954 2012-07-17 14:35:14 <justmoon> MagicalTux: yeah I see your point
955 2012-07-17 14:35:18 <MagicalTux> D34TH: seems good enough seen from here, I'll see if it supports the secp256k1 curve correctly and port it in php if it does
956 2012-07-17 14:35:20 theorbtwo has joined
957 2012-07-17 14:35:34 <MagicalTux> (actually checked comments, it seems OK)
958 2012-07-17 14:36:03 <D34TH> :D
959 2012-07-17 14:36:23 <MagicalTux> libtomcrypt's ecdsa implementation does not support secp256k1 for some reason
960 2012-07-17 14:36:45 <MagicalTux> (I initially intended to base myself on that one, since I'm a maintainer too)
961 2012-07-17 14:36:56 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
962 2012-07-17 14:36:58 <jgarzik> MagicalTux: several ecdsa implementations do not. It's common to link with an ecdsa lib, and then import a custom curve, these days.
963 2012-07-17 14:37:12 <jgarzik> it's easier just to carry the curve data, than an entire ecdsa impl
964 2012-07-17 14:37:26 <D34TH> it has secp256k1
965 2012-07-17 14:37:35 <D34TH> just compiled
966 2012-07-17 14:37:38 <D34TH> and tested
967 2012-07-17 14:37:54 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
968 2012-07-17 14:37:55 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, so apparently every other function is getting passed, except getBlockchain >.<
969 2012-07-17 14:37:55 <MagicalTux> jgarzik: what I mean is that some libs do not support modifying the "a" point
970 2012-07-17 14:38:16 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: lulwut?
971 2012-07-17 14:38:55 <SomeoneWeird> well adding a console.log(this.node) to transactionstore.js just before getblockchain is called, it seems that most(?) other functions are there, but not getblockchain
972 2012-07-17 14:38:59 <SomeoneWeird> im like wtf too lol
973 2012-07-17 14:39:31 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Download IceChat at www.icechat.net)
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976 2012-07-17 14:41:20 <D34TH> magicaltux: http://pastebin.com/siXhEXA9
977 2012-07-17 14:41:43 <MagicalTux> D34TH: saw that in the comments already
978 2012-07-17 14:41:46 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
979 2012-07-17 14:41:50 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: it may actually be a different bug than what I had then
980 2012-07-17 14:42:06 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, ok so i explicitly passed the blockchain to transactionstore and that worked, but now im getting another error
981 2012-07-17 14:42:09 <SomeoneWeird> what node version you using?
982 2012-07-17 14:42:38 <justmoon> 0.8.2, I've reproduced the error after you sent me the paste, just haven't had time to look at it yet
983 2012-07-17 14:42:54 <gavinandresen> vigilyn: it means somebody found an invalid block. See blockchain.info, which is reporting a fork at 189498 right now
984 2012-07-17 14:43:07 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, aight, allgood ill keep looking
985 2012-07-17 14:43:23 <D34TH> justmoon: have you finished downloading?
986 2012-07-17 14:43:29 Fanquake has quit (Quit: Fanquake)
987 2012-07-17 14:43:38 <justmoon> D34TH: yup
988 2012-07-17 14:43:41 <D34TH> :D
989 2012-07-17 14:43:53 <D34TH> bluematt: there ya go :D
990 2012-07-17 14:43:58 <justmoon> BlueMatt, D34TH: thanks again :)
991 2012-07-17 14:44:06 <D34TH> np
992 2012-07-17 14:44:20 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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994 2012-07-17 14:45:40 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
995 2012-07-17 14:46:22 * SomeoneWeird murders all bugs in sight
996 2012-07-17 14:47:02 <jgarzik> man, I hate WebSocket. But everybody's deploying it :/
997 2012-07-17 14:47:16 <justmoon> jgarzik: dito
998 2012-07-17 14:47:18 Raziel_ has joined
999 2012-07-17 14:47:32 <SomeoneWeird> socketio ftw lol
1000 2012-07-17 14:47:52 <copumpkin> damn json everywhere
1001 2012-07-17 14:48:02 <upb> oh so if you pile more crap on top of crap, its gold ?:P
1002 2012-07-17 14:48:06 PrincessLunaaa has quit (Quit: QUIT (or PART?)! I broke textual derppp. +PinkiePiee: Game lasted 22374945:16. 00: was day. 22374945:16 was night.)
1003 2012-07-17 14:48:27 RainbowDashh has joined
1004 2012-07-17 14:48:50 <SomeoneWeird> upb, if it works :P
1005 2012-07-17 14:49:04 RazielZ has joined
1006 2012-07-17 14:49:09 <justmoon> I'd describe socket.io as gold on top of crap ^^
1007 2012-07-17 14:49:52 <BlueMatt> justmoon: np, D34TH thanks
1008 2012-07-17 14:50:04 Forexmasterja has joined
1009 2012-07-17 14:50:45 <BlueMatt> anyone know the issue in the current block fork?
1010 2012-07-17 14:50:55 * BlueMatt looks to add a testcase for it
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1014 2012-07-17 14:53:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: did the block chain just fork?
1015 2012-07-17 14:53:57 <BlueMatt> apparently
1016 2012-07-17 14:54:09 <BlueMatt> control-f up for "vigilyn"
1017 2012-07-17 14:54:27 Raziel_ has joined
1018 2012-07-17 14:54:29 <SomeoneWeird> justmoon, ok so (im probably wrong) but because its prototyping the functions its trying to call after the main object has been created they dont exist yet so thats why its failing? mightve changed in newer versions of node
1019 2012-07-17 14:55:23 Raziel__ has joined
1020 2012-07-17 14:56:53 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: not sure I understand - I'd say try and patch it and if it fixes it you were right :)
1021 2012-07-17 14:57:17 <SomeoneWeird> lol, im probably wrong
1022 2012-07-17 14:57:23 * SomeoneWeird hates debugging
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1024 2012-07-17 14:58:08 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1025 2012-07-17 14:58:12 <SomeoneWeird> actually, where does .bind() come from on line 113 of node.js
1026 2012-07-17 14:59:01 <justmoon> bind is core javascript: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Function/bind
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1028 2012-07-17 14:59:47 <justmoon> basically it just let's you define a scope that that function will always have every time you call it
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1030 2012-07-17 15:01:17 <SomeoneWeird> ok well i "fixed" the other bug, but apparently this.handleStateChange is undefined when it hits that line
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1036 2012-07-17 15:07:56 <BlueMatt> epscy: in other news, the hsbc aml hearing is going on right now, which is of interest to the earlier discussion
1037 2012-07-17 15:08:02 Raziel_ has joined
1038 2012-07-17 15:08:17 <BlueMatt> http://www.cnbc.com/id/36000856
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1043 2012-07-17 15:10:17 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: ok, so I found the problem :)
1044 2012-07-17 15:10:18 <yellowhat> is this the 2 billion cash thingie BlueMatt ?
1045 2012-07-17 15:10:31 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: var n = new b.Node()
1046 2012-07-17 15:10:36 <justmoon> you were missing the "new"
1047 2012-07-17 15:10:53 <justmoon> so it was running the constructor outside of the class context
1048 2012-07-17 15:10:53 <BlueMatt> yellowhat: its the hsbc failed to follow aml laws in mexico and elsewhere and ended up laundering mexican drug money, not sure about the amount
1049 2012-07-17 15:11:06 <justmoon> see the examples/ for reference
1050 2012-07-17 15:11:44 <SomeoneWeird> oh FUCK.
1051 2012-07-17 15:11:53 <justmoon> :D
1052 2012-07-17 15:12:17 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1053 2012-07-17 15:12:18 <SomeoneWeird> i feel like the biggest idiot lol
1054 2012-07-17 15:12:26 <justmoon> sorry for the derpiness on my part I should have seen it too :P
1055 2012-07-17 15:12:29 <SomeoneWeird> haha thanks man
1056 2012-07-17 15:12:40 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1057 2012-07-17 15:12:43 <justmoon> nw
1058 2012-07-17 15:13:10 <SomeoneWeird> also the git repo in package.json should be updated
1059 2012-07-17 15:14:53 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1060 2012-07-17 15:15:02 <sturles> Hmm. Most of the stolen funds from the last Bitcoinica theft ends up at this address after a lot of washing: 1SKLADuZdfR722o2CBFDps5Dj77XxPuVe
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1064 2012-07-17 15:18:45 <sturles> Makes me wonder what the whole point of the washing was.
1065 2012-07-17 15:19:01 <BlueMatt> it was clearly done poorly...
1066 2012-07-17 15:19:07 <copumpkin> someone might assume that all laundry is created equal
1067 2012-07-17 15:19:11 <justmoon> SomeoneWeird: you're right, will fix it
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1070 2012-07-17 15:19:49 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: apparently, some of the best laundering would be to use hsbc mexico...
1071 2012-07-17 15:20:02 <copumpkin> my local coin laundry does a pretty good job
1072 2012-07-17 15:20:15 <BlueMatt> heh
1073 2012-07-17 15:20:18 <copumpkin> whiter than white :)
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1078 2012-07-17 15:24:51 <bitllc> ;;ticker
1079 2012-07-17 15:24:52 <gribble> Best bid: 8.4, Best ask: 8.40001, Bid-ask spread: 9.99999999962e-06, Last trade: 8.4, 24 hour volume: 253196, 24 hour low: 7.3215, 24 hour high: 9.49
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1094 2012-07-17 15:38:35 <epscy> who says the washing is finished yet?
1095 2012-07-17 15:38:57 <epscy> the best thing to do with those funds is just to leave them there for ages
1096 2012-07-17 15:39:11 <epscy> then cash them out on multiple exchanges
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1121 2012-07-17 15:53:49 <jgarzik> epscy: I would be willing to bet that /some/ exchanges keep an eye out for questionable bitcoins
1122 2012-07-17 15:54:21 <nsh> questionable in what sense?
1123 2012-07-17 15:54:46 <epscy> could satoshidice be used to wash coins?
1124 2012-07-17 15:55:25 <BlueMatt> most sites could be
1125 2012-07-17 15:55:44 <BlueMatt> satoshidice, no
1126 2012-07-17 15:55:54 <epscy> why not?
1127 2012-07-17 15:56:18 <epscy> oh they send the money back to the same address
1128 2012-07-17 15:56:39 <BlueMatt> it pays out to the address used to send money to it, each payout has the input attached, each bet is listed on their site, including the in tx and payout
1129 2012-07-17 15:58:43 <t7> what happened with the bitcoin pirate fiasco?
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1135 2012-07-17 16:07:17 <jgarzik> SatoshiDICE max bet raised to 250 BTC. This should be interesting.
1136 2012-07-17 16:08:17 <epscy> heh, awesome
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1138 2012-07-17 16:09:32 * jgarzik wonders how many will martingale away thousands of BTC
1139 2012-07-17 16:10:49 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: good, means people run out of coins quicker and cant keep flooding my chain
1140 2012-07-17 16:10:57 <jgarzik> hehe
1141 2012-07-17 16:11:09 <BlueMatt> s/my chain/the chain on my drive/
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1143 2012-07-17 16:11:31 <luke-jr> jgarzik: want to write a patch to bet 250 BTC when we find a block (including a double-spend of it in the block) and only transmit the block iff we lose the bet? ;)
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1146 2012-07-17 16:12:32 <jgarzik> morally, no, of course. but it begins to make economic rational sense for a miner at those prices.
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1149 2012-07-17 16:14:14 <jgarzik> speaking of chain spam...
1150 2012-07-17 16:14:44 <vigilyn> there's btcdice.com now too
1151 2012-07-17 16:15:03 <jgarzik> Has anyone done any work on running a sister chain, whose purpose would be publishing generic, small bits of data?
1152 2012-07-17 16:15:46 <jgarzik> if bitcoin could be leveraged to create a second, super-strong (difficulty-wise) chain for publishing crypto-signed messages, there might be less demand to do so in the main bitcoin chain. (and I see a lot of value in a data chain)
1153 2012-07-17 16:15:52 <jgarzik> TD: ^
1154 2012-07-17 16:15:57 <Optimo> namecoin-ish?
1155 2012-07-17 16:16:05 <vigilyn> gamblers' chain
1156 2012-07-17 16:16:32 <Optimo> satoshi dice bothering in this way
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1158 2012-07-17 16:17:14 <jgarzik> a sister chain is better than all these <data>OP_DROP proposals IMO
1159 2012-07-17 16:18:00 <BlueMatt> has anyone actually been using much <data> OP_DROP?
1160 2012-07-17 16:19:40 <jgarzik> not yet, hence "proposals" TD's bond stuff included something like OP_DROP IIUC
1161 2012-07-17 16:19:43 <luke-jr> I spent some p2pool data outputs.
1162 2012-07-17 16:20:16 <sturles> jgarzik: Any progress for your filter patch?
1163 2012-07-17 16:20:33 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: wait, they're spendable?
1164 2012-07-17 16:20:33 <jgarzik> sturles: not lately. no blockers other than time
1165 2012-07-17 16:20:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: yes :p
1166 2012-07-17 16:21:01 <BlueMatt> oh, well that is ok then...someone wanna go through and write a script to find + spend them all?
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1168 2012-07-17 16:21:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: since then, I modified my autospender to ignore zero-value outputs
1169 2012-07-17 16:21:06 <jgarzik> sturles: there is a consensus on the design, but it has not yet been coded
1170 2012-07-17 16:21:31 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: why? it would be better if your autospender did spend 0-value outputs
1171 2012-07-17 16:21:36 <jgarzik> sturles: need to pick a bloom filter algorithm, and standardize on a single universal serialization of it (a la CTransaction and CBlock)
1172 2012-07-17 16:21:46 <jgarzik> sturles: the rest is 10 minutes work
1173 2012-07-17 16:21:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, it'd clutter my wallet :<
1174 2012-07-17 16:21:54 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gavinandresen opened pull request 1606 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1606>
1175 2012-07-17 16:22:00 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: ^^ if you want a project :)
1176 2012-07-17 16:22:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok, so make it spend to an address thats in a separate wallet?
1177 2012-07-17 16:22:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's not smart enough to combine inputs either
1178 2012-07-17 16:22:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the filter* stuff?
1179 2012-07-17 16:22:44 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: mmm...
1180 2012-07-17 16:22:53 <sturles> jgarzik: OK, thanks. I hope you get the time soon.
1181 2012-07-17 16:23:39 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yea, Ive been thinking about writing that in sometime, but every time I get close to it, I just assume by the time Ive written it, someone else will already have it working...
1182 2012-07-17 16:23:48 <Optimo> nice to see all these smart minds still working hard
1183 2012-07-17 16:24:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: mainly CBloomFilter
1184 2012-07-17 16:24:19 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: the rest is easy glue
1185 2012-07-17 16:24:23 <BlueMatt> yep
1186 2012-07-17 16:25:33 <gavinandresen> ACKS requested on pull 1606; adds an extra sighash argument to signrawtransaction
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1190 2012-07-17 16:27:36 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I would, but I don't understand SIGHASH stuff enough to test it reasonably well
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1192 2012-07-17 16:29:40 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: well once I pull it, it will be a good tool to play with all the SIGHASH modes...
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1196 2012-07-17 16:41:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: thanks for fixing sendrawtx btw
1197 2012-07-17 16:41:24 <jgarzik> one item off the todo list
1198 2012-07-17 16:42:15 <BlueMatt> can we do win32 auto-update for 0.7 (#1453)?
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1201 2012-07-17 16:45:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: sounds good to me, though I am not qualified to ACK it
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1206 2012-07-17 16:47:18 <luke-jr> BIP22 has been settled down for nearly a month now (bitcoind implementation in #936)
1207 2012-07-17 16:50:05 <Marf> hello how long until i can sign transactions with my smartphone and the client for maximum savety?
1208 2012-07-17 16:50:49 <lianj> Marf: until you write it :P
1209 2012-07-17 16:50:50 <BlueMatt> its coming, but timeframes for a bunch of volunteers is always hard...
1210 2012-07-17 16:51:10 <LuaKT> Okay, question. I generated a wallet on my server and sent funds to i when the blockchain wasn't fully downloaded. I then copied that wallet and loaded it up in my local Bitcoin-QT with the chain updated. the funds aren't showing in my client
1211 2012-07-17 16:51:12 <LuaKT> Any idea why?
1212 2012-07-17 16:51:16 <Marf> is it part of v1.0?
1213 2012-07-17 16:51:17 <Optimo> who does run bitcoinwatch?
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1215 2012-07-17 16:51:23 <Marf> tcatm
1216 2012-07-17 16:51:42 <BlueMatt> Marf: yes
1217 2012-07-17 16:52:55 <luke-jr> Marf: I suggest if it is important to you, that you hire sipa full time to work on it ;)
1218 2012-07-17 16:53:07 <BlueMatt> too late, hes got a job...
1219 2012-07-17 16:53:47 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: one he wouldn't be willing to quit if the opportunity to work full time on Bitcoin arose? :p
1220 2012-07-17 16:54:02 <BlueMatt> no clue, but I kinda doubt it...
1221 2012-07-17 16:54:20 <BlueMatt> working on bitcoin wouldnt exactly be a stable job...
1222 2012-07-17 16:54:34 <luke-jr> depends on the person/company financing it
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1224 2012-07-17 16:54:56 <BlueMatt> ok, I doubt anyone who would be able to provide stable jobs would hire someone to work on bitcoin full-time
1225 2012-07-17 16:55:56 <makomk> I see the bad P2SH transaction of doom lives on...
1226 2012-07-17 16:56:11 <BlueMatt> is that what triggered the reorg earlier?
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1228 2012-07-17 16:56:55 <BlueMatt> so/reorg/fork/
1229 2012-07-17 16:56:55 <lianj> makomk: hash?
1230 2012-07-17 16:57:01 <makomk> It's why there was a short fork at block 189498. More recent invalids are unrelated.
1231 2012-07-17 16:57:35 <makomk> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/3618498/4005d6bea3a93fb72f006d23e2685b85069d270cb57d15f0c057ef2d5e3f78d2
1232 2012-07-17 16:58:19 <makomk> More recent orphans, evne.
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1238 2012-07-17 17:03:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: what are some of the fun test-cases in the first n testnet3 blocks?
1239 2012-07-17 17:03:57 <gavinandresen> There's an invalid BIP16 transaction before the BIP16 switchover time
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1242 2012-07-17 17:04:53 <gavinandresen> And most (all?) of the test cases from src/test/data/script_valid.json are in the chain as funded then spent transactions
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1244 2012-07-17 17:05:56 <gavinandresen> (so there is a maximum-size, and maximum-sigops, and maximum-pushdata transaction, transactions with maximum OP_ADD operand size, etc)
1245 2012-07-17 17:06:33 <BlueMatt> mmm, ok fun, thanks, Ill add some similar ones to my testing chain
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1252 2012-07-17 17:19:11 <osxorgate> noobsauce alert.. i'm trying to locate bitcoind on osx.. where is it?
1253 2012-07-17 17:19:32 <BlueMatt> its not
1254 2012-07-17 17:19:59 <osxorgate> any way i can access that handy rpc ?
1255 2012-07-17 17:20:58 <osxorgate> i'm trying to run my python code that uses the blockchain on osx
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1257 2012-07-17 17:23:44 <BlueMatt> start bitcoin-qt with -server -rpcuser=... -rpcpassword=...
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1262 2012-07-17 17:31:57 <LuaKT> I just sent a transaction of 0.0001
1263 2012-07-17 17:32:05 <LuaKT> And got charged 0.005
1264 2012-07-17 17:32:10 <LuaKT> as the fee
1265 2012-07-17 17:32:23 <LuaKT> I thought the fee was 0.0005?
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1267 2012-07-17 17:32:34 <LuaKT> Am I missing something?
1268 2012-07-17 17:34:41 <gmaxwell> LuaKT: the base fee is 0.0005 per KB of data you send.
1269 2012-07-17 17:35:08 <gmaxwell> (if the txn doesn't otherwise qualify as free, which having an output of less than 0.01 makes sure it won't)
1270 2012-07-17 17:35:31 <LuaKT> Okay, how do I know the size of my transaction?
1271 2012-07-17 17:35:35 <gmaxwell> Otherwise an attaker could intentionally craft 100KB transactions and only pay 0.0005 each.
1272 2012-07-17 17:36:09 <LuaKT> https://blockchain.info/tx-index/12519796/1e918f9e609e3542e56b528a8bf66534bdd0712d294e20a1277dc3f27abbc593
1273 2012-07-17 17:36:11 <LuaKT> 258 Bytes
1274 2012-07-17 17:36:17 <gmaxwell> Normal txn are around 250 bytes or so, they become large if they have many inputs or outputs. The GUI doesn't show it anywhere, IIRC.
1275 2012-07-17 17:36:38 <LuaKT> Yet the blockchain wallet I was checking out says -0.0051 BTC
1276 2012-07-17 17:36:45 <gmaxwell> Sounds like you have the builtin fee set then.
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1278 2012-07-17 17:37:05 <gmaxwell> oh this is a blockchain.info transaction?
1279 2012-07-17 17:37:07 <gmaxwell> who knows then.
1280 2012-07-17 17:37:21 <LuaKT> The blockchain.info API page says "All transactions include a 0.0005 BTC miners fee"
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1283 2012-07-17 17:38:28 <gmaxwell> I can see no reason for a fee larger than 0.0005 there.
1284 2012-07-17 17:38:39 <LuaKT> Strange
1285 2012-07-17 17:38:59 <gmaxwell> It would only be like the umpteenth blockchain.info fee bug I've seen.
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1296 2012-07-17 17:53:47 <Joric_> gmaxwell, which bug?
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1300 2012-07-17 17:54:52 <gmaxwell> Joric: in this case paying a 0.005 fee when 0.0005 would have been sensible.
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1332 2012-07-17 19:00:50 <helo> anyone know how the transactions are sent with the "Offline transactions for BitcoinJ/Android bitcoin wallet: Andreas Schildbach and grazcoin
1333 2012-07-17 19:00:56 <helo> - Ability for Android Wallet to do offline transactions" from the hackathon?
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1337 2012-07-17 19:05:31 <BlueMatt> theres a thread on the bitcoinj mailing list, Id guess read that?
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1369 2012-07-17 20:02:16 <helo> answer: bluetooth ;)
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1372 2012-07-17 20:02:49 <BlueMatt> wait...what? you create a tx, and send it via bluetooth to...?
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1379 2012-07-17 20:03:41 <Optimo> shitty timing
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1382 2012-07-17 20:03:48 <helo> to a "vendor's phone" which has internet access
1383 2012-07-17 20:03:55 <BlueMatt> ah
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1388 2012-07-17 20:04:25 <BlueMatt> interesting idea...could be cool for...dunno, developing markets?...or I guess people with too strict bw limits?
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1390 2012-07-17 20:05:16 <jgarzik> P2P is always a nice feature
1391 2012-07-17 20:05:23 <BlueMatt> true
1392 2012-07-17 20:05:58 <helo> i always think of sending offline transactions from a savings wallet on an offline device...
1393 2012-07-17 20:06:32 <jgarzik> such as a printer
1394 2012-07-17 20:06:35 <pierce1> people can still use bitcoin without being connected to the network, there is not really a reason for any given user to view all transactions being passed around
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1396 2012-07-17 20:06:41 <helo> i don't see in this design doc how the offline device gets the inputs it is going to send from
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1398 2012-07-17 20:07:04 <BlueMatt> pierce: viewing all txes is a separate issue (with a fix coming)
1399 2012-07-17 20:07:32 <BlueMatt> helo: Id assume you have to have been online and gotten the inputs at one point, but now can spend them?
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1403 2012-07-17 20:07:55 <pierce> BlueMatt: nifty, good to hear
1404 2012-07-17 20:08:24 <helo> that kind of fails for me :/
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1409 2012-07-17 20:09:01 <BlueMatt> helo: for what use-case? always-offline walets?
1410 2012-07-17 20:09:14 <helo> it would have to be a series of communications, where the device sends the vendor it's source address, the vendor's device builds the transaction and sends it to the device, then the device validates it, signs it, and sends it back
1411 2012-07-17 20:09:27 <helo> BlueMatt: yeah
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1414 2012-07-17 20:10:15 <BlueMatt> also interesting...though its not really /that/ different from getting the list of txes from a bitcoin node on the regular p2p network (aside from bw concerns)
1415 2012-07-17 20:11:24 <BlueMatt> and it gets ugly because suddenly the vendor needs to keep the full list of unspent txouts (ok...thats not /that/ ugly with recent pruning stuff, but still)
1416 2012-07-17 20:12:12 <BlueMatt> thats another thing I wanna do with the full-pruned stuff on bitcoinj - keep them indexed by address/pubkey and let people use that in an api
1417 2012-07-17 20:12:46 <BlueMatt> anyone wanna write fun test-cases?
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1468 2012-07-17 21:35:00 <coblee> hey, does anyone know why we are not running strip on bitcoin-qt for windows or linux builds?
1469 2012-07-17 21:35:47 <pierce> coblee: why strip? files too big?
1470 2012-07-17 21:37:13 <coblee> just seems unnecessary to include the debug symbols in release builds. we are stripping bitcoind though. just not qt. was wondering if there was a reason for that.
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1472 2012-07-17 21:37:31 <BlueMatt> wait, what?
1473 2012-07-17 21:37:35 <BlueMatt> we used to be...
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1476 2012-07-17 21:39:24 <coblee> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian.yml
1477 2012-07-17 21:39:38 <BlueMatt> are you looking at the binaries, or just the script?
1478 2012-07-17 21:39:38 <coblee> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian-win32.yml
1479 2012-07-17 21:39:47 <BlueMatt> iirc qmake adds a -Wl,-s automatically
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1483 2012-07-17 21:45:29 <coblee> i just downloaded bitcoin 0.6.3 on linux. running strip on bitcoin-qt reduces the binary size from 9mb to 7mb
1484 2012-07-17 21:46:43 <BlueMatt> hmmm well, actually thats nice, 2mb for basic debug symbols Id say is worth shipping
1485 2012-07-17 21:46:54 <BlueMatt> though not on win32, because those symbols are essentially worthless
1486 2012-07-17 21:47:30 <coblee> well, we strip bitcoind. seems like we should do the same for qt.
1487 2012-07-17 21:50:13 <BlueMatt> Id rather stop stripping bitcoind, tbh
1488 2012-07-17 21:50:43 <coblee> well, either way
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1517 2012-07-17 22:22:53 <yellowhat> BlueMatt, indexing with bitcoinj sounds nice. i would be interested in working on something like this, but not today i got to sleep now. if you have any info on that or want feedback on design let me know please.
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1520 2012-07-17 22:24:25 <BlueMatt> yellowhat: thats a ways off, first gotta get the full verification stuff test-cased and then merged
1521 2012-07-17 22:24:58 <yellowhat> is there already a branch for full verification?
1522 2012-07-17 22:26:47 <BlueMatt> yep
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1524 2012-07-17 22:26:58 <BlueMatt> got everything (minus script execution) implemented
1525 2012-07-17 22:27:05 <BlueMatt> am working on test cases right now
1526 2012-07-17 22:27:12 <yellowhat> sounds great
1527 2012-07-17 22:27:20 <BlueMatt> http://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/list?name=fullverif
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1553 2012-07-17 23:37:46 <genjix> hey
1554 2012-07-17 23:38:05 <genjix> i think GetHex could be replaced with an implementation that uses isxdigit
1555 2012-07-17 23:38:09 <genjix> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/cctype/isxdigit/
1556 2012-07-17 23:38:50 <genjix> and ParseHex should use native ostreams
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