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  4 2012-07-22 00:12:55 <jgarzik> hrm
  5 2012-07-22 00:13:08 <jgarzik> do we already have duplicate TX hashes in the block chain?
  6 2012-07-22 00:13:11 <jgarzik> d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599
  7 2012-07-22 00:15:42 <tcatm> I have that tx in block 91842 (a4d0a...).
  8 2012-07-22 00:15:55 <copumpkin> 91812
  9 2012-07-22 00:16:26 <copumpkin> hmm
 10 2012-07-22 00:16:44 <tcatm> It's a coinbase, though. There were some broken miners creating duplicate transactions by mistake.
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 14 2012-07-22 00:39:44 <jgarzik> tcatm: it will be interesting when someone wants to spend...
 15 2012-07-22 00:41:38 * jgarzik wonders what is the proper (i.e satoshi) handling here?
 16 2012-07-22 00:42:22 <jgarzik> trying to spend will cause a lookup on txid... which returns what?  most recent tx with that txid?  earliest tx with that txid?
 17 2012-07-22 00:46:07 <copumpkin> if I were to guess, I'd guess the most recent :P
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 35 2012-07-22 01:25:59 <luke-jr> jgarzik: most recent.
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 41 2012-07-22 02:01:30 <cheako> theymos: Is there a way I can get the block number for 30days ago?  http://blockexplorer.com/b/200002  It seams like just guessing block numbers is a no-no.
 42 2012-07-22 02:03:13 <cheako> I'd like to know how many new coins were added since block number X(first block on 2012-06-23 UTC) till 190148(this morning UTC)
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 59 2012-07-22 02:42:37 <lianj> cheako: exact or average :P
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 90 2012-07-22 04:24:07 <copumpkin> blk***.dat are append-only, right?
 91 2012-07-22 04:24:32 <gmaxwell> yes.
 92 2012-07-22 04:35:04 <MC1984> will a heavily fragmented blockchain shit thing up quite a lot
 93 2012-07-22 04:37:09 <copumpkin> fragmented?
 94 2012-07-22 04:37:52 <MC1984> file fragmentation
 95 2012-07-22 04:38:31 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the accesses are random in any case, so it really shouldn't matter a ton. Fragmented index files are probably worse, but harder to avoid.
 96 2012-07-22 04:39:26 <MC1984> oh well ill defrag anyway
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 98 2012-07-22 04:42:11 <jgarzik> amusingly, gdbm as a blockchain db is standing up to more punishment than BDB, when used via python's dbm enginery
 99 2012-07-22 04:42:54 <jgarzik> gdbm survives Ctrl-C, bsddb does not.  Probably have to turn on autocommit or somesuch.  It is just amusing that poor old gdbm skunks bdb out of the box here.
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101 2012-07-22 04:48:04 <MC1984> hmm could you make the installer detect where youve already got bitcoin installed if not in the default location, for upgrade installs
102 2012-07-22 04:48:29 <MC1984> this would make it easier for me to mash Next until it goes away thanks
103 2012-07-22 04:59:12 <jgarzik> WARNING: overwriting duplicate TX d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599, height 91841, oldblk 00000000000af0aed4792b1acee3d966af36cf5def14935db8de83d6f9306f2f, oldspent 0, newblk 00000000000a4d0a398161ffc163c503763b1f4360639393e0e4c8e300e0caec
104 2012-07-22 04:59:12 <jgarzik> WARNING: overwriting duplicate TX e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468, height 91879, oldblk 00000000000271a2dc26e7667f8419f2e15416dc6955e5a6c6cdf3f2574dd08e, oldspent 0, newblk 00000000000743f190a18c5577a3c2d2a1f610ae9601ac046a38084ccb7cd721
105 2012-07-22 04:59:36 <copumpkin> another one?
106 2012-07-22 04:59:50 <jgarzik> #91841 and #91879, old blocks
107 2012-07-22 05:00:05 <copumpkin> oh wait
108 2012-07-22 05:00:11 <copumpkin> that's the same one we were looking at before
109 2012-07-22 05:00:12 <copumpkin> [20:08:35] <jgarzik> d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599
110 2012-07-22 05:00:13 <copumpkin> [20:11:06] <tcatm> I have that tx in block 91842 (a4d0a...).
111 2012-07-22 05:00:20 <copumpkin> except off-by-oone?
112 2012-07-22 05:01:12 <jgarzik> mine is technically height-1, because it has not yet processed the block in question
113 2012-07-22 05:01:15 <jgarzik> so yes
114 2012-07-22 05:01:34 <copumpkin> ah, okay
115 2012-07-22 05:19:31 <midnightmagic> fragmentation does make an enormous different in (for example) Windows files, btw; even a normal seek in one of those files can be measurably slower.
116 2012-07-22 05:20:02 <midnightmagic> and, since we grow the blk* files in small pieces at a time, we are going to see this.
117 2012-07-22 05:20:24 <midnightmagic> "fragmentation" doesn't make nearly so much of a diff. on unix-like machinery.
118 2012-07-22 05:21:36 <copumpkin> just preallocate all 2 gigs of the blk* file :)
119 2012-07-22 05:21:41 <copumpkin> you know it's gonna grow that big
120 2012-07-22 05:22:45 <copumpkin> O(1) extra space and space is cheap ;)
121 2012-07-22 05:23:30 <midnightmagic> that requires basically a seek to specify to the OS that you're going to build a file that large. you can avoid the huge chunk-at-a-time overhead by pre-allocating in smaller chunks. depending on db access patterns, return on larger-and-larger preallocation shrinks quickly
122 2012-07-22 05:23:51 <midnightmagic> "return" I guess better said as "savings"
123 2012-07-22 05:24:06 <midnightmagic> time savings? whatever you want to cal lit.
124 2012-07-22 05:24:15 <midnightmagic> aaaand my namecoin wallet is corrupt.
125 2012-07-22 05:24:40 <MC1984> lolwindows
126 2012-07-22 05:24:57 <MC1984> welp time for contig.exe
127 2012-07-22 05:25:16 <midnightmagic> MC1984: was that your question? on a windows machine? you didn't specify.
128 2012-07-22 05:25:35 <MC1984> yes
129 2012-07-22 05:25:43 <midnightmagic> ok
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153 2012-07-22 06:05:56 <jgarzik> scan complete
154 2012-07-22 06:06:05 <jgarzik> just those two dups in the mainnet chain
155 2012-07-22 06:07:22 <MC1984> what
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157 2012-07-22 06:22:02 <copumpkin> duplicate transaction IDs
158 2012-07-22 06:22:17 <copumpkin> jgarzik: is that the issue roconnor brought up a few months ago?
159 2012-07-22 06:28:11 <copumpkin> is bitcoin using the hash storage method in bdb or the btree one?
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179 2012-07-22 07:49:14 <Keefe> is there any tool for determining the balance of an arbitrary address, or more particularly the balances of an arbitrary list of addresses, completely offline using just an up to date blk* file set?
180 2012-07-22 07:49:59 <Keefe> i saw some forum threads and i think a stackexchange post about this, but without conclusion
181 2012-07-22 07:52:00 <Varan> There is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88584.0
182 2012-07-22 07:52:26 <Varan> but it doesn't really do what you want i think... but could maybe be modified to do this
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187 2012-07-22 07:55:20 <weex> Keefe: when you say using just, is loading into mysql ok? I think something called Abe might do that.
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190 2012-07-22 07:59:25 <Keefe> "Compute and print the balance for all keys ever used since the beginning of time (30 seconds)"
191 2012-07-22 07:59:28 <Keefe> nice!
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194 2012-07-22 08:00:06 <Keefe> sounds useful for my need
195 2012-07-22 08:00:09 <Keefe> thanks Varan
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198 2012-07-22 08:00:55 <Keefe> weex: i suppose that could work as well. i don't mind starting with making a list of all keys, then filtering by my own list
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205 2012-07-22 08:30:27 <Varan> Keefe: np
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301 2012-07-22 15:20:43 <cheako> lianj: Instead of asking, why not answer.  It sounds like you have two answers, on that's exact and another that's an average.  You could have simply said exact block ID is X, but the average block ID is X sub l to X sub h.
302 2012-07-22 15:24:23 <cheako> midnightmagic: There is NOW a call for linux at least to allocate a hole, thus avoiding the whole seek to end and write out a byte.
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304 2012-07-22 15:27:29 <cheako> http://lwn.net/Articles/226710/
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306 2012-07-22 15:35:28 <cheako> Don't ask to answer, just answer for each output of your question...  Especially if the number of outputs is under 5 or so.
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321 2012-07-22 16:37:38 <cheako> How can I get onto or into the DNS based on bitcoin?  Is there such a thing?
322 2012-07-22 16:38:42 <chmod755> cheako: do you mean namecoin?
323 2012-07-22 16:38:47 <Joric> cheako, go here http://dot-bit.org
324 2012-07-22 16:49:16 <jgarzik> copumpkin: yes
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328 2012-07-22 17:06:16 <jgarzik> Here's pynode: https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode
329 2012-07-22 17:06:30 <jgarzik> it does initial block download, and maintains a memory pool and block db.
330 2012-07-22 17:06:44 <jgarzik> it does NOT verify scripts, nor handle reorg
331 2012-07-22 17:07:11 * jgarzik hopes to add getmemorypool and/or getwork support
332 2012-07-22 17:08:16 <luke-jr> does it keep orphan txns out of the memory pool until their parents are confirmed?
333 2012-07-22 17:08:58 <luke-jr> blah, Python 2
334 2012-07-22 17:09:11 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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336 2012-07-22 17:14:17 <copumpkin> lol
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341 2012-07-22 17:17:58 <jgarzik> luke-jr: not smart enough to figure out orphans yet
342 2012-07-22 17:18:37 <jgarzik> luke-jr: all transactions received from bitcoind are put into the memory pool.  blocks are the only thing that remove txs from the memory pool.
343 2012-07-22 17:19:10 <jgarzik> The next step is to verify valid mempool inputs
344 2012-07-22 17:19:26 <jgarzik> Once connectedness is verified, you can make a getmemorypool or getwork
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348 2012-07-22 17:28:48 <jgarzik> pynode thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94645.0
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351 2012-07-22 17:32:36 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 111, neverseen 1, poolsz 76
352 2012-07-22 17:32:36 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 470, neverseen 1, poolsz 71
353 2012-07-22 17:32:36 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 444, neverseen 304, poolsz 36
354 2012-07-22 17:32:36 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 512, neverseen 3, poolsz 71
355 2012-07-22 17:32:36 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 116, neverseen 1, poolsz 74
356 2012-07-22 17:32:59 <jgarzik> pynode notices when pools inject TX's that have never been broadcast to the network ('neverseen')
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358 2012-07-22 17:38:27 <TD> jgarzik: what's the goal of this work?
359 2012-07-22 17:40:08 <jrmithdobbs> sounds like an attempt to get better auditing logs, i'd guess probably using libevent/etc too for io because jgarzik ;p,  out of an easier to modify/maintain "lite" (in functionality, not as in headers only) implementation
360 2012-07-22 17:40:28 Detritus has joined
361 2012-07-22 17:41:33 <jrmithdobbs> and having python libraries that actually parses all that stuff is useful in general for one-off analyzation and stuff, basically: same reasons phantom started down the road of a python client
362 2012-07-22 17:42:00 <jrmithdobbs> or: why not?
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375 2012-07-22 18:15:15 <luke-jr> -rw-r--r-- 19 luke-jr luke-jr 2097361271 Jul 21 14:48 /home/luke-jr/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat
376 2012-07-22 18:15:19 <luke-jr> wee, 19 hardlinks :p
377 2012-07-22 18:17:17 <luke-jr> hmm, that should've freed 36 GB, but only 32 GB avail total :/
378 2012-07-22 18:17:22 <copumpkin> lol
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395 2012-07-22 19:18:38 <jgarzik> TD[gone]: jrmithdobbs pretty much got it
396 2012-07-22 19:19:11 <jgarzik> TD[gone]: no big goal, just wanted a python node for various chores -- statistics, auditing, implementation comparison, etc.
397 2012-07-22 19:19:23 <jgarzik> pynode is intended to be a fully capable "full node"
398 2012-07-22 19:22:10 <jgarzik> I'm also interested in exploring whether or not it will work for miners -- sans wallet
399 2012-07-22 19:22:23 <jgarzik> i.e. point the coinbase to a list of addresses, so that a wallet need not be held
400 2012-07-22 19:28:39 ug has joined
401 2012-07-22 19:33:00 <jgarzik> running a wallet actually interests me the least
402 2012-07-22 19:33:13 <jgarzik> so maybe it is closer to "bitcoin router" side of things
403 2012-07-22 19:34:26 <cheako> Does any one know about merged mining?  Does that take twice the CPU/GPU/ect power per nonce?
404 2012-07-22 19:34:47 <luke-jr> cheako: it does not
405 2012-07-22 19:35:05 <cheako> Where can I find information on how that works?
406 2012-07-22 19:35:07 <luke-jr> cheako: it basically amounts to OtherChain accepting a valid Bitcoin proof-of-work
407 2012-07-22 19:37:01 <cheako> Ohh.  Wouldn't that mean there is data(at the vary least a hash or signature) for the other chain leaking into both?
408 2012-07-22 19:38:08 <cheako> When I was looking at it, I was basically thinking a miner would work on a block that contained bitcoin and namecoin transactions.
409 2012-07-22 19:39:09 <cheako> Sooner or later the block could be added to either chain as a proper solution, but now you say that the block would then be valid for both chains.
410 2012-07-22 19:40:53 <luke-jr> cheako: yes, the other chain needs the bitcoin block header and coinbase transaction
411 2012-07-22 19:41:35 <luke-jr> p2pool abuses a 0-amount output instead of the coinbase scriptSig, to be "the last N<64 bytes of the coinbase txn"
412 2012-07-22 19:42:55 <cheako> Can you point me at a block that was merged mined?
413 2012-07-22 19:44:18 <luke-jr> http://explorer.dot-bit.org/b/730e26f48ff3b0f2821a9c1692bd568f982e12a51fb2cded357acf62682935c1
414 2012-07-22 19:45:31 <luke-jr> note that Bitcoin does NOT currently support merged mining, so you won't find any on the Bitcoin blockchain
415 2012-07-22 19:45:51 <luke-jr> (which means almost all merged-mined blocks have Bitcoin as the parent chain)
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417 2012-07-22 19:49:24 <cheako> I don't get how that could work.  How can a double round of sha256 be done once on two different blocks?
418 2012-07-22 19:50:18 <cheako> It sounds like you either work on a bitcoin block or you work on a bitcoin block that has namecoin data init that can be used on the namecoin chain.
419 2012-07-22 19:50:30 <cheako> in it
420 2012-07-22 19:54:45 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
421 2012-07-22 19:56:44 <luke-jr> cheako: you work on a bitcoin block
422 2012-07-22 19:56:48 <amiller> cheako, you only work on one block, but it contains additional data, to the bitcoin chain it appears as (bitcoindata, junk) and to nmc chain it appears as (junk, namecoindata)
423 2012-07-22 19:57:02 <luke-jr> the bitcoin block's first transaction, the coinbase, can contain arbitrary data in scriptSig
424 2012-07-22 19:57:09 <luke-jr> put plug the namecoin block header hash in there
425 2012-07-22 19:57:28 <luke-jr> then namecoin accepts block header + coinbase txn + merkle link + bitcoin block header as proof
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443 2012-07-22 20:28:23 <cheako> So a successful block is then used on both chains?
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446 2012-07-22 20:33:25 <cheako> I've not got a response over at #namecoin.  How can I get my domains into namecoin, I guess I'd be registering .bit domains for the .net/.com domains I already own?
447 2012-07-22 20:34:05 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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451 2012-07-22 20:36:17 <cheako> It sounds fabulous, It would save me domain renewal fees?  However I can't help but notice that the root nameservers don't seam to have a delegation for bit.
452 2012-07-22 20:37:22 <cande> how safe is it to open up rpcallowip=* with a safe password?
453 2012-07-22 20:40:31 <luke-jr> cheako: namecoin seems mostly dead now IMO
454 2012-07-22 20:40:59 <cheako> ahh, that's too bad.
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458 2012-07-22 20:42:08 <cheako> Yeah, I think they would have a hard time getting published in the root nameservers...  who runs them?
459 2012-07-22 20:42:49 <cheako> Though they may be able to get ppl to put them in there bootstrap file.
460 2012-07-22 20:42:56 <luke-jr> not to mention the agency that runs the root nameservers has always been hostile to anyone else adding TLD
461 2012-07-22 20:43:47 <jgarzik> my my my my
462 2012-07-22 20:43:56 <jgarzik> 07/22/12 20:38:50 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000001fe9350  height=190277  work=397331445042998428014  date=07/22/12 20:38:03
463 2012-07-22 20:43:56 <jgarzik> 07/22/12 20:38:50 SetBestChain: 1 of last 100 blocks above version 1
464 2012-07-22 20:44:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell ^
465 2012-07-22 20:44:25 <luke-jr> someone mining on next-test?
466 2012-07-22 20:45:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik: know which block?
467 2012-07-22 20:45:46 <jgarzik> luke-jr: look at the output just pasted
468 2012-07-22 20:45:53 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it's not block 190277
469 2012-07-22 20:46:13 <luke-jr> unless blockchain.info just hard-coded version 1 -.-
470 2012-07-22 20:46:42 <luke-jr> BBE says 190277 is also ver 1
471 2012-07-22 20:46:59 <jgarzik> 07/22/12 07:15:00 SetBestChain: new best=00000000000001f167ee  height=190192  work=396650067028590193389  date=07/22/12 07:14:32
472 2012-07-22 20:46:59 <jgarzik> 07/22/12 07:15:00 SetBestChain: 1 of last 100 blocks above version 1
473 2012-07-22 20:47:56 <luke-jr> hmm
474 2012-07-22 20:48:07 <luke-jr> it doesn't look like it's got the height either ;/
475 2012-07-22 20:48:20 <luke-jr> a merge-mining BIP16-enabled miner
476 2012-07-22 20:49:21 <luke-jr> on another note, it might be worth seriously considering to use the txn version number instead of the block ver #
477 2012-07-22 20:49:31 <luke-jr> the block ver # might be needed for ASICs. maybe.
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483 2012-07-22 20:57:21 * luke-jr mails -dev ml
484 2012-07-22 21:01:49 <Hunner> cheako: There isn't one group that runs the root servers, but IANA has their hand in the TLD allocation
485 2012-07-22 21:02:58 freewil has joined
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488 2012-07-22 21:04:50 <cheako> That hand is likely unnecessary.
489 2012-07-22 21:06:37 cande has joined
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493 2012-07-22 21:16:20 <cande> any source about magnetlinks and bitcoin?
494 2012-07-22 21:16:43 sirk390 has joined
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498 2012-07-22 21:28:12 <luke-jr> cande: no such thing
499 2012-07-22 21:28:30 <cande> yes... it's just the URI?
500 2012-07-22 21:30:12 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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502 2012-07-22 21:35:46 <genjix> jgarzik: can you merge this? it's been days, and i posted on the mailing list, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/46
503 2012-07-22 21:36:15 znort987 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
504 2012-07-22 21:36:16 <cheako> /home/cheako/.bitcoin/debug.log  <--- this file is kinda big.  Can I add it to mylog rotation?  Something like: kill -HUP $(pgrep bitcoind)
505 2012-07-22 21:36:35 <jgarzik> genjix: done
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507 2012-07-22 21:37:12 <luke-jr> cheako: with 0.7, bitcoind respects SIGHUP
508 2012-07-22 21:37:19 <luke-jr> cheako: alternatively, Gentoo has a patch for older versions
509 2012-07-22 21:37:21 abracadabra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
510 2012-07-22 21:37:27 <luke-jr> (applied with USE=logrotate)
511 2012-07-22 21:38:51 <cheako> If I was going to recompile...  Yeah, I'm only on 0.3.24~dfsg-1~bpo60+1.
512 2012-07-22 21:41:44 <cheako> squeeze-updates is empty?  Well, I was thinking that the debian packages could ship a bitcoind-data package that has the updates to a recent known good block id.
513 2012-07-22 21:42:43 <cheako> There used to be an exemption for clamav to release new versions in debian-volitile, but it looks like it's gone now.
514 2012-07-22 21:43:10 <cheako> I believe that bitcoin software might have been covered under the same exemption.
515 2012-07-22 21:43:11 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 1620 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1620>
516 2012-07-22 21:43:38 <luke-jr> cheako: 0.3.24 has known vulnerabilities
517 2012-07-22 21:44:00 <cheako> luke-jr: Debian security backports fixes.
518 2012-07-22 21:44:06 <luke-jr> cheako: no, they don't.
519 2012-07-22 21:44:08 <cheako> luke-jr: I'll check.
520 2012-07-22 21:44:24 abracadab has joined
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523 2012-07-22 21:44:26 <cheako> luke-jr: Well they need to, they just need to be told is all.
524 2012-07-22 21:45:16 <luke-jr> cheako: nobody maintains 0.3
525 2012-07-22 21:45:24 <luke-jr> cheako: there is no tracking of what issues affect it at all
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527 2012-07-22 21:45:57 <cheako> luke-jr: Ohh, well anyone can fix that.  Plus the security team maintains any package that has issues, via NMUs.
528 2012-07-22 21:46:18 <luke-jr> but at the very least: CVE-2012-1909, BIP-0016, CVE-2012-2459, and CVE-2012-3789
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531 2012-07-22 21:47:10 <cheako> Thank you, I'll forward that.
532 2012-07-22 21:47:20 <luke-jr> I already told them 0.3 was unmaintained and full of bugs
533 2012-07-22 21:47:27 abracadab is now known as abracadabra
534 2012-07-22 21:47:29 <luke-jr> they were rude and said it wasn't a bug
535 2012-07-22 21:47:49 <luke-jr> and eventually concluded that they'll work on getting a recent version in the next release
536 2012-07-22 21:47:56 <luke-jr> ignoring the current stable
537 2012-07-22 21:48:36 <genjix> jgarzik: thanks
538 2012-07-22 21:49:59 <cheako> Is there any one we should cc on discussions about these?
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546 2012-07-22 21:56:35 <luke-jr> cheako: you can CC me, I maintain 0.4.x, 0.5.x, and 0.6.x
547 2012-07-22 21:57:54 <gmaxwell> 14:39 < cheako> luke-jr: Debian security backports fixes.
548 2012-07-22 21:57:56 <gmaxwell> HAHAHAH
549 2012-07-22 21:58:00 <gmaxwell> Yea, good luck with that.
550 2012-07-22 21:58:09 <luke-jr> :p
551 2012-07-22 21:58:24 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 1621 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1621>
552 2012-07-22 21:59:19 <gmaxwell> hopefully when they "backport" they will send a useful version string so I can make my own nodes refuset to connect to the inevitably broken debian nodes?
553 2012-07-22 21:59:47 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: don't say that. they might not if you're threatening such
554 2012-07-22 21:59:54 <luke-jr> and it's better if they do
555 2012-07-22 22:00:12 <luke-jr> cheako: BTW, the fixes for the last 2 of those are not disclosed
556 2012-07-22 22:00:27 <luke-jr> (nor the nature of them)
557 2012-07-22 22:00:42 <gavinandresen> how are we doing with upgrade percentage, by the way?  You still tracking that luke?
558 2012-07-22 22:00:51 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 72%
559 2012-07-22 22:00:56 <gavinandresen> oooh, so close
560 2012-07-22 22:01:03 <luke-jr> it's been going slow
561 2012-07-22 22:01:08 <luke-jr> I think it was 71% a week ago
562 2012-07-22 22:01:29 <luke-jr> I still think it'll be fall before we reach 77%
563 2012-07-22 22:01:43 <gmaxwell> I dunno, I bet the 0.7 release bumps it over.
564 2012-07-22 22:01:49 <luke-jr> maybe.
565 2012-07-22 22:02:01 <luke-jr> I bet everyone who upgrades to 0.7 will have been using 0.6.3 already
566 2012-07-22 22:02:28 <luke-jr> speaking of which, I wonder if 0.6.3 has been out long enough that we can bump it to stable on Gentoo…
567 2012-07-22 22:02:55 <luke-jr> 4 more days
568 2012-07-22 22:04:45 <gmaxwell> 0.7 has a lot of awesomeness that might pull along some stragglers.
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570 2012-07-22 22:05:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: so did 0.6!
571 2012-07-22 22:05:36 <cheako> gmaxwell: Debian will on request, if it comes from the authors of the software...  I still havn't gotten a clear definition of how one tells who that is.  However the point is that Debian is willing to take on extra responsibility if it will make ppl happy and by extra we mean above what the license would require.  This does include not packaging a GPL application at all, though in my experience compromises have been made to satisfy the
572 2012-07-22 22:05:36 <cheako> developers requirements.
573 2012-07-22 22:05:47 <[Tycho]> What upgrade are you talking about ?
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577 2012-07-22 22:06:30 <luke-jr> cheako: Debian should just bump stable to 0.4.7
578 2012-07-22 22:06:54 <luke-jr> cheako: it has some minor changes from 0.3.24 to 0.4.1, but not too much; and from 0.4.1 to 0.4.7 is only bugfixes
579 2012-07-22 22:07:17 <cheako> luke-jr: Debian package requirements dictate transparency in that regard, at the vary least we will end up with open DSAs against the packages.
580 2012-07-22 22:07:48 <luke-jr> cheako: ?
581 2012-07-22 22:08:19 <cheako> luke-jr: That's an often requested solution, unfortunately it's either version X that was shipped in stable or package removed...  Usually.
582 2012-07-22 22:09:05 <cheako> luke-jr: For every patch it must be vary clear what the patch is for and how it works.
583 2012-07-22 22:09:26 <luke-jr> cheako: every patch between 0.3.24 and 0.4.7 is available in git
584 2012-07-22 22:10:28 <luke-jr> cheako: also, Debian stable did a major incompatible bump of MySQL not long ago; a compatible bump like this should be nothing
585 2012-07-22 22:10:38 <cheako> luke-jr: You would have to find just cause to include each and every one.
586 2012-07-22 22:10:40 <luke-jr> (yes, I'm aware they wrote a nasty note bashing Oracle for having to do it)
587 2012-07-22 22:10:56 <luke-jr> cheako: "fixes a bug" is just cause IMO
588 2012-07-22 22:11:19 <cheako> Each and every commit, must fix a bug.
589 2012-07-22 22:11:26 <gmaxwell> I really don't think debian's stable model is well fit to bitcoin at this time. Bitcoin is beta software, and I think it was packaged prematurely.
590 2012-07-22 22:11:48 <luke-jr> cheako: OK, so take 0.3.24 and backport every commit between 0.4.1 and 0.4.7, then you've got it
591 2012-07-22 22:11:55 * luke-jr wonders if that's automatable…
592 2012-07-22 22:12:15 <cheako> git does it?
593 2012-07-22 22:12:22 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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595 2012-07-22 22:12:52 <luke-jr> cheako: it probably could
596 2012-07-22 22:13:09 <cheako> Transparency of changes made to upstream source is something that I don't believe has ever been successfully overturned, if any one has even tried.
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599 2012-07-22 22:14:11 <cheako> gmaxwell: Debian will only package code that has been released.  I'm not sure if Beta releases count, but 0.3.x is hardly beta.
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604 2012-07-22 22:14:53 <gmaxwell> cheako: _all_ of the bitcoin reference software is beta.
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606 2012-07-22 22:15:51 <cheako> http://bitcoin.org/releases/2011/07/08/v0.3.24.html  <--- beta not found.
607 2012-07-22 22:17:01 <gmaxwell> cheako: then you didn't actually pull the software.
608 2012-07-22 22:17:40 danbri has joined
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610 2012-07-22 22:18:42 <gmaxwell> $ grep -i BETA `find ./` | wc -l
611 2012-07-22 22:18:42 <gmaxwell> 74
612 2012-07-22 22:18:47 <gmaxwell> (on 0.3.24)
613 2012-07-22 22:18:47 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
614 2012-07-22 22:18:58 <gmaxwell> Sorry that telling you 74 times isn't enough. ;)
615 2012-07-22 22:19:42 <gmaxwell> Including in the first line of the readme, and every place the software displays the version message.
616 2012-07-22 22:19:49 <cheako> Ahh, yes I see now: Bitcoin 0.3.24 BETA from doc/README
617 2012-07-22 22:20:44 <cheako> gmaxwell: irc doesn't count, I'm afraid.  It needs to be public where any DD can verify.
618 2012-07-22 22:21:06 <gmaxwell> cheako: I don't know how someone can make it more public than in the software itself.
619 2012-07-22 22:21:19 <cheako> gmaxwell: In the release notes?
620 2012-07-22 22:21:19 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is novel and risky distributed currency software. The line between feature and fixes is often not very clear.
621 2012-07-22 22:21:45 <cheako> release announcement would be better.
622 2012-07-22 22:21:47 <D34TH> gmaxwell, why find ./ instead of ls
623 2012-07-22 22:21:48 <D34TH> ?
624 2012-07-22 22:22:23 <cheako> Why not: find ./ -exec grep -i BETA {} + | wc -l
625 2012-07-22 22:22:26 <gmaxwell> cheako: _every_ release is beta currently. It would get a little repetative that way— and someone who doesn't follow bitcoin well enough to know this really shouldn't be packaging it.
626 2012-07-22 22:23:04 <gmaxwell> D34TH: to make it recursive.
627 2012-07-22 22:23:09 <gmaxwell> cheako: no type f too? :)
628 2012-07-22 22:23:22 <cheako> gmaxwell: DMs would surprise you, they arn't always the brightest bunch...  overall.
629 2012-07-22 22:23:40 <dooglus> grep -r ?
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632 2012-07-22 22:24:11 <gmaxwell> What is this… this old commandline? :)
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634 2012-07-22 22:29:05 <luke-jr> I prefer: grep whatever $(git ls-files)
635 2012-07-22 22:29:06 <luke-jr> <.<
636 2012-07-22 22:29:24 * luke-jr should make a shell alias
637 2012-07-22 22:30:31 <cccp_> ack is nice as well :)
638 2012-07-22 22:30:52 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: thats a pretty good one.
639 2012-07-22 22:30:57 <lianj> luke-jr: why not git grep .. then?
640 2012-07-22 22:31:12 bakh has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
641 2012-07-22 22:31:25 * luke-jr fails
642 2012-07-22 22:31:41 <gmaxwell> lianj: because luke's form is generic and works with whatever tool you want to plug in.
643 2012-07-22 22:31:44 <genjix> does anyone know how to stop ubuntu adding spaces to paths when tab completing for ack-grep?
644 2012-07-22 22:34:32 xenland has joined
645 2012-07-22 22:34:47 <genjix> i have this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ack-grep/+bug/746380
646 2012-07-22 22:34:54 * luke-jr concludes 0.3.25 is a lot of work to make
647 2012-07-22 22:36:06 <luke-jr> (as in, takes much more than 23 minutes
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669 2012-07-22 23:36:34 <Ferroh> ok so multikey is live in the client right now right?
670 2012-07-22 23:37:07 <Ferroh> currently what I do, is have a wallet for a public bitcoin-service site on a completely separate server
671 2012-07-22 23:37:16 <Ferroh> but I'd like to move the satoshi client to the website server
672 2012-07-22 23:37:20 <Ferroh> however,
673 2012-07-22 23:37:38 <Ferroh> I don't want this client to be able to spend funds without a secondary key
674 2012-07-22 23:38:20 slush1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
675 2012-07-22 23:38:20 <Ferroh> but the problem is
676 2012-07-22 23:38:29 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
677 2012-07-22 23:39:40 <Ferroh> transmitting the secondary key to the client, without it being discovered if the site is compromised without my knowledge
678 2012-07-22 23:39:44 <Ferroh> I guess this isn't possible.
679 2012-07-22 23:40:09 <Ferroh> er,
680 2012-07-22 23:40:11 <Ferroh> lol nevermind
681 2012-07-22 23:40:19 <Ferroh> I can just copy the site's wallet to the secondary server
682 2012-07-22 23:40:25 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
683 2012-07-22 23:40:25 <Ferroh> instead of transmitting the secondary key
684 2012-07-22 23:40:27 <Ferroh> derp
685 2012-07-22 23:40:41 <Ferroh> you can ignore that ^^ wall of text now.
686 2012-07-22 23:46:04 <luke-jr> Ferroh: multikey is supported by Bitcoin live, but not any clients really
687 2012-07-22 23:46:30 <Ferroh> luke-jr, I meant it is now supported by the current stable version of the satoshi client, right?
688 2012-07-22 23:46:33 <luke-jr> Ferroh: but really, it sounds like you want HD wallets, not multikey
689 2012-07-22 23:46:41 <Ferroh> luke-jr, "HD wallets"?
690 2012-07-22 23:46:43 <luke-jr> Ferroh: no, no client supports multikey really
691 2012-07-22 23:47:00 <luke-jr> Ferroh: HD wallets allow you to deploy a read-only webserver with another client that can spend
692 2012-07-22 23:47:09 <Ferroh> luke-jr, What I want is to prevent this client from being able to spend funds without a secondary authenticator.
693 2012-07-22 23:47:11 <luke-jr> so the webserver can make new addresses, but it can't spend from them
694 2012-07-22 23:47:13 <gavinandresen> They support sending to multikey addresses, but not spending if they don't have all the keys
695 2012-07-22 23:47:24 <luke-jr> ^ right, it can send to them
696 2012-07-22 23:47:30 <gavinandresen> Ferroh: see https://gist.github.com/3161162   (which I wrote up this weekend)
697 2012-07-22 23:47:39 <luke-jr> (IMO, spending-if-you-have-all-the-keys is worthless really)
698 2012-07-22 23:47:52 <gavinandresen> (agreed, was only useful for testing)
699 2012-07-22 23:48:23 <Ferroh> Well, how else do I achieve the ability to have a site that can accept coins to an arbitrary number of addresses, without spending them?
700 2012-07-22 23:48:32 <luke-jr> Ferroh: HD wallets
701 2012-07-22 23:48:44 <Ferroh> gavinandresen, to be clear, you're saying that https://gist.github.com/3161162 is not an ideal solution, and was merely a good test?
702 2012-07-22 23:49:04 <gavinandresen> I'm saying that gist explains how you can do what you probably want to do with the current code in git HEAD
703 2012-07-22 23:49:06 <luke-jr> Ferroh: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032 - also not implemented anywhere (although Armory has an earlier draft)
704 2012-07-22 23:49:39 <gmaxwell> multisignature isn't the tool you want for a recieve only wallet.
705 2012-07-22 23:49:40 <luke-jr> (note Armory's wallets are only Deterministic, not Hierarchial)
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708 2012-07-22 23:50:16 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, well it isnt receive only -- it needs to spend, it's just that I want to make sure that the client on the site cant spend if the site is compromised
709 2012-07-22 23:50:16 <gmaxwell> Hell you could just use a regular wallet, set the keypool to an enormous size, encrypt it.. and never let the decryption key touch the webserver. This is not as good as what can be done with HD wallets, but it works today.
710 2012-07-22 23:50:19 <gavinandresen> Ferroh: but that gist is the "duct tape and bailing wire" solution until we figure out how to make a GUI that works for that kind of thing
711 2012-07-22 23:50:47 <luke-jr> Ferroh: the hard part there is determining if the site is compromised ;)
712 2012-07-22 23:51:02 <gmaxwell> Ah for spending, then yes, multisignature does that.. but the UI to make it useful to you isn't done yet.
713 2012-07-22 23:51:04 <Ferroh> what I currently do is pregenerate 10K public keys at a time, and store them in an SQL database on the site.
714 2012-07-22 23:51:08 <Ferroh> luke-jr, I shouldn't have to determine that.
715 2012-07-22 23:51:21 <luke-jr> Ferroh: you do.
716 2012-07-22 23:51:24 <Ferroh> so currently I store no private keys on the site
717 2012-07-22 23:51:24 <luke-jr> Ferroh: it's unavoidable
718 2012-07-22 23:51:25 <gmaxwell> er, that sure sounds like a read-only wallet to me then.
719 2012-07-22 23:51:41 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, no, because I have all the same keys on a spendable client elsewhere
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721 2012-07-22 23:51:50 <Ferroh> luke-jr, no, you shouldn't have to detect that, and it is possible.
722 2012-07-22 23:51:50 <gavinandresen> yes, if you've got another secure system where all spends can be done, do what gmaxwell suggests
723 2012-07-22 23:52:02 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: sure... a wallet that can't be spent by _anyone_ isn't very useful. :)
724 2012-07-22 23:52:35 <luke-jr> Ferroh: it is impossible to have "allow spending, but only if the spend is authorized from a non-compromised system" without defining "non-compromised" in some technical manner
725 2012-07-22 23:52:40 <Ferroh> luke-jr, well, to be clear, you dont have to detect if the website server is compromised -- but you'd have to detect if the OTHER wallet that can spend is compromised -- still that's much better due to linode hack type situations
726 2012-07-22 23:52:49 <Ferroh> luke-jr, yes exactly
727 2012-07-22 23:53:04 <Ferroh> luke-jr, er sorry, I thought you said "possible"
728 2012-07-22 23:53:04 <luke-jr> Ferroh: so define it. it's not obvious.
729 2012-07-22 23:53:38 <Ferroh> luke-jr, okay for example, you do exactly what I'm doing now. which is store only public keys on server A, and then all keys on server B. Now only server B can spend, and we dont care if server A is compromised or not.
730 2012-07-22 23:53:56 <luke-jr> Ferroh: but you want server A to spend if it's not compromised…
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732 2012-07-22 23:55:04 <Ferroh> luke-jr, I see what you mean, but that's not actually important since server B can spend from all of server A's addresses. I don't actually need server A to technically spend
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734 2012-07-22 23:55:25 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: have you thought at all about luke-jr's proposal for a priority formula?  priority = WEIGHT1*sum(inputs)*age/size + WEIGHT2*fee ?
735 2012-07-22 23:55:29 <luke-jr> Ferroh: ok then
736 2012-07-22 23:55:33 <Ferroh> the point is that I want to be able to spend from server A's wallet, without anyone who has compromised server A being able to do so
737 2012-07-22 23:56:20 <luke-jr> Ferroh: Armory can do that today. BIP 32 (HD wallets) is the feature you want to look for going forward.
738 2012-07-22 23:56:55 <Ferroh> luke-jr, I cant run armory on a webserver due to the ram requirements
739 2012-07-22 23:56:57 <Ferroh> gmaxwell, I guess I like that idea, I'll try that.
740 2012-07-22 23:57:01 <Ferroh> thanks guys
741 2012-07-22 23:58:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I don't have a strong opinion on it... although I expect if the weights are configuratble will set it 0/1 because it isn't clear what the tradeoffs actually mean.
742 2012-07-22 23:59:44 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I don't have a strong opinion either; default weights could be set so that a transaction with "foo" age-based-priority and zero fee has the same priority as one with "bar" fee.  It makes the transaction selection code simpler, which is a plus.