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 18 2012-07-28 01:13:21 <MC-Eeepc> guys listen
 19 2012-07-28 01:13:32 <MC-Eeepc> what if we took the blockchain
 20 2012-07-28 01:13:35 <MC-Eeepc> guys
 21 2012-07-28 01:13:42 <MC-Eeepc> and put it in a DHT
 22 2012-07-28 01:13:57 <gmaxwell> ...
 23 2012-07-28 01:13:57 <upb> lol
 24 2012-07-28 01:14:42 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: you've not been around long enough to have heard me lament that the substring "DHT" (at least in here) is a reliable doofus detection criteria, I guess? :)
 25 2012-07-28 01:15:10 <MC-Eeepc> did your doofus detector go off
 26 2012-07-28 01:16:04 <gmaxwell> It's just that DHT's don't do much for any of the challenges we actually have, and even if they did— they have their own problems (attack resistance foremost among them).
 27 2012-07-28 01:16:05 <jgarzik> we could script it
 28 2012-07-28 01:16:12 Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 29 2012-07-28 01:16:17 <jgarzik> "DHTbot", which does nothing but wait for that substring and rofl
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 31 2012-07-28 01:16:22 <gmaxwell> But they're the _only_ kind of distributed system a lot of people have heard about, so they get randomly suggested a lot.
 32 2012-07-28 01:16:28 <jgarzik> make the bot distributed
 33 2012-07-28 01:16:30 <MC-Eeepc> bittorrents dht is about 60gb of data, it will fit!
 34 2012-07-28 01:17:03 <upb> gram bits?
 35 2012-07-28 01:17:23 <MC-Eeepc> dont be silly
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 44 2012-07-28 01:20:13 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: something like that would be interesting if nodes needed random access to blocks (and if the attack resistance issues could be solved)— but that isn't what nodes need.
 45 2012-07-28 01:20:59 <MC-Eeepc> electrolytes is what nodes need
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 47 2012-07-28 01:22:22 <gmaxwell> s/need/crave/
 48 2012-07-28 01:22:57 <MC-Eeepc> fag talk
 49 2012-07-28 01:23:13 <MC-Eeepc> i bet someone will fork it and throw a DHT in there eventually
 50 2012-07-28 01:23:21 <gmaxwell> And a spoiler too.
 51 2012-07-28 01:23:30 <gmaxwell> I hear your fork has bitchin rims.
 52 2012-07-28 01:23:45 <MC-Eeepc> fukin a
 53 2012-07-28 01:24:12 shadders has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 54 2012-07-28 01:24:32 <MC-Eeepc> fuck how can my cat be purring and biting me at the same time
 55 2012-07-28 01:24:41 <MC-Eeepc> little motherfucker lulled me in
 56 2012-07-28 01:25:06 <gmaxwell> cats also purr when they're in pain.
 57 2012-07-28 01:25:30 <MC-Eeepc> well shes not
 58 2012-07-28 01:25:38 <MC-Eeepc> but i am
 59 2012-07-28 01:25:58 <gmaxwell> acasual sympathy pain, your cat is a precog.
 60 2012-07-28 01:26:06 <MC-Eeepc> god damn bdsm cat
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 64 2012-07-28 01:35:28 <MC-Eeepc> whats the optimal number of random peer connections for the shortest amount of hops from one edge of the nextwork to the other
 65 2012-07-28 01:35:50 <MC-Eeepc> is it 8 or the hundred plus whn you have open port
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 83 2012-07-28 02:33:17 <Bitxk> anyone uses's electrum? the encryption feature does not work
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 87 2012-07-28 03:13:06 BTCGuild_Fraud is now known as Mad7Scientist
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 89 2012-07-28 03:15:52 <Jaco> Hello, Where can I download the source of bitcoin?
 90 2012-07-28 03:16:01 Jaco is now known as Guest25753
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 93 2012-07-28 03:21:10 <graingert> Jaco_: github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 94 2012-07-28 03:21:21 <graingert> Jaco_: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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 96 2012-07-28 03:22:48 <Jaco_> Yes, I found that. Thanks. :)
 97 2012-07-28 03:22:52 <Jaco_> Bye.
 98 2012-07-28 03:23:02 <Jaco_> Actually, what does it actually do with my GPU?
 99 2012-07-28 03:23:22 <luke-jr> Bitcoin doesn't touch your GPU
100 2012-07-28 03:23:30 <luke-jr> maybe you're thinking Bitcoin GPU miners ;)
101 2012-07-28 03:23:33 <Jaco_> I see an irc.cpp and crypter.cpp...
102 2012-07-28 03:23:42 <luke-jr> what about them?
103 2012-07-28 03:24:00 <Jaco_> Why are they there?
104 2012-07-28 03:24:15 <luke-jr> irc.cpp is for IRC bootstrapping, deprecated except for testnet
105 2012-07-28 03:24:26 <luke-jr> crypter.cpp is probably for wallet encryption
106 2012-07-28 03:24:32 <Jaco_> I've always heard Bitcoin uses your GPU. Does it not?
107 2012-07-28 03:25:07 <luke-jr> no
108 2012-07-28 03:25:19 <luke-jr> well, except for drawing your window with buttons
109 2012-07-28 03:25:21 <luke-jr> but that's obvious
110 2012-07-28 03:25:36 <Jaco_> Well what do the buttons do?
111 2012-07-28 03:25:42 <luke-jr> and that's a wallet, not Bitcoin itself
112 2012-07-28 03:25:48 <luke-jr> whatever they say they do;..
113 2012-07-28 03:26:12 <Jaco_> I haven't actually downloaded it because I don't understand how the miner works.
114 2012-07-28 03:26:51 <luke-jr> Bitcoin miners are not Bitcoin itself
115 2012-07-28 03:27:05 <luke-jr> BFGMiner is the one I maintain. it's open source, so you can see how it works.
116 2012-07-28 03:27:56 <Jaco_> Do I download Bitcoin to manage my wallet and then a miner to generate coins?
117 2012-07-28 03:28:39 <luke-jr> there are multiple wallets and multiple miners, all independent projects
118 2012-07-28 03:28:42 <luke-jr> but yes
119 2012-07-28 03:28:55 <Jaco_> Is it all the same currency?
120 2012-07-28 03:29:16 <Jaco_> Like if someone requests bitcoins as a payment, does it matter which wallet/miner I use?
121 2012-07-28 03:30:01 <luke-jr> yes, it's all the same currency
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124 2012-07-28 03:32:44 <Jaco_> luke-jr: Can you link me to the source of your miner?
125 2012-07-28 03:33:18 <luke-jr> https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer
126 2012-07-28 03:33:40 <luke-jr> it supports GPUs and FPGAs (and ASICs later this year)
127 2012-07-28 03:34:19 <Jaco_> Oh Java, nice! That's my primary language.
128 2012-07-28 03:34:46 <Jaco_> C style formatting and conventions though :P
129 2012-07-28 03:35:12 <luke-jr> …
130 2012-07-28 03:35:13 <luke-jr> it's C
131 2012-07-28 03:35:28 <Jaco_> https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer/blob/bfgminer/API.java
132 2012-07-28 03:35:31 <luke-jr> there's just some example code for accessing the RPC API
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134 2012-07-28 03:35:47 <luke-jr> I should probably move it to an example subdir
135 2012-07-28 03:36:20 <Jaco_> Oh haha, I didn't scroll down and see the C files :P
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137 2012-07-28 03:39:32 <Jaco_> luke-jr: What exactly does a miner do? Like some hashing function? What prevents me from editing a file and changing how many coins I have?
138 2012-07-28 03:40:09 <luke-jr> Jaco_: proof-of-work
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140 2012-07-28 03:41:01 <gmaxwell> Jaco_: you can edit a file and make your software display a different amount, but this doesn't actually change the amount you can spend.
141 2012-07-28 03:41:31 <gmaxwell> Jaco_: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source read this short thing, then the bitcoin.pdf linked at the bottom for a technical explination of how bitcoin works.
142 2012-07-28 03:42:41 <Jaco_> Thanks. gmaxwell, I'll read this now.
143 2012-07-28 03:47:36 Bitxk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
144 2012-07-28 03:47:43 <Jaco_> That technical pdf was what I was looking for. Thanks :)
145 2012-07-28 03:49:09 <gmaxwell> It's a bit light on the fine details, but it explains the overall operation of the system pretty well.
146 2012-07-28 03:49:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: is it coincidence I find a block as soon as I hand-longpoll? <.<
147 2012-07-28 03:50:05 <gmaxwell> 0_o broken miners that don't return solutions promptly?
148 2012-07-28 03:50:10 <luke-jr> lol
149 2012-07-28 03:50:18 <luke-jr> nah, I'm sure it's a coincidence
150 2012-07-28 03:50:30 <luke-jr> I'm hand-longpolling like crazy right now to test some BFGMiner changes :P
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152 2012-07-28 03:55:32 <luke-jr> hmm, almost all Eligius's blocks these days are only free txns
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156 2012-07-28 04:02:32 <jgarzik> holy craparooni.  pynode validated its first scripts.
157 2012-07-28 04:02:37 <luke-jr> it really is tempting to move back to KC
158 2012-07-28 04:03:10 <lianj> jgarzik: congrats
159 2012-07-28 04:05:08 <jgarzik> admittedly I was transcribing C++ to python, not writing original code.  but it is surprising that all these parts worked.
160 2012-07-28 04:05:22 * jgarzik expected more bugs from himself!
161 2012-07-28 04:05:55 <luke-jr> XD
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235 2012-07-28 10:26:01 <Joric> is there an udp version of the protocol?
236 2012-07-28 10:27:14 <Joric> torrent clients have it, allows nat throughput and whatnot
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239 2012-07-28 10:31:29 <pusle> you mean hole punching? can't you do that with tcp as well?
240 2012-07-28 10:31:53 <Joric> nope
241 2012-07-28 10:34:12 <Joric> though i don't know really if it's really importand last time i tried it i found out most people use iptables now (port restricted nat) and hole punching just doesn't work
242 2012-07-28 10:35:00 <pusle> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_hole_punching#Types_of_NAT
243 2012-07-28 10:35:07 <pusle> okay
244 2012-07-28 10:35:46 <Joric> wikipedia is not the best source, just saying
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246 2012-07-28 10:39:15 <Joric> well, okay, depends of router
247 2012-07-28 10:41:55 <Joric> 'the same technique is sometimes extended to TCP connections, albeit with much less success' very same wiki
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252 2012-07-28 10:51:57 <Joric> i just was trying to write udp punching version of my game found out it won't work behind iptables not sure what most users have now
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353 2012-07-28 17:09:01 <jgarzik> pynode still going strong, on script validation!
354 2012-07-28 17:09:04 <jgarzik> Scanned 334735 tx, 121073 blocks (0 failures)
355 2012-07-28 17:09:11 <jgarzik> slow as molasses
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388 2012-07-28 18:51:42 <jgarzik> whee
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390 2012-07-28 18:51:46 <jgarzik> Scanned 1456305 tx, 147443 blocks (0 failures)
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392 2012-07-28 18:54:50 <sipa> jgarzik: testnet is probably more interesting than realnet
393 2012-07-28 18:56:43 <jgarzik> sipa: one step at a time :)
394 2012-07-28 18:57:10 <jgarzik> sipa: it's both easier and more important to test pynode script verification on mainnet
395 2012-07-28 18:57:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sipa: heh see my testnet mail?
396 2012-07-28 18:58:04 <jgarzik> yep
397 2012-07-28 18:58:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: -ENOCARE ATM, unless it means I need to reset my testnet3 v2 node
398 2012-07-28 18:59:52 <gmaxwell> ::nods::
399 2012-07-28 19:00:32 <gmaxwell> Is there any interest in seeing testnet make the 210000 block halving transition?
400 2012-07-28 19:02:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: some.  I think that is mostly interesting for reasons unrelated to the technical side of things
401 2012-07-28 19:02:57 <jgarzik> i.e. effect on mining etc.
402 2012-07-28 19:03:20 <jgarzik> Scanned 1571458 tx, 150087 blocks (0 failures)
403 2012-07-28 19:03:27 * jgarzik really expected failures by now, especially with P2SH
404 2012-07-28 19:03:30 <gmaxwell> Yep. Yea, the actual code for it trivial.
405 2012-07-28 19:03:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: P2SH should pass under code which doesn't know anything about it.
406 2012-07-28 19:04:03 * jgarzik has zero P2SH code at present, but the blocks <= 150k are verifying just fine.  I'm pretty sure there is a P2SH block in ~130k range
407 2012-07-28 19:04:13 <jgarzik> or maybe that's ~170k
408 2012-07-28 19:04:25 <luke-jr> zero P2SH code = zero chance of P2SH-specific failures
409 2012-07-28 19:04:28 <gmaxwell> To non-p2sh code p2sh looks like an anyone can spend transaction.
410 2012-07-28 19:07:34 <jgarzik> hrm.  near-100% CPU usage is expected, but I wonder where all that memory is going
411 2012-07-28 19:07:37 <jgarzik> 5917 jgarzik   20   0  904m 730m 3588 R 99.0 18.5 145:49.41 testscript.py
412 2012-07-28 19:08:09 * jgarzik has a 2500-block deserialized block cache, but other than that, everything else is gdbm on disk
413 2012-07-28 19:09:06 <jgarzik> with average 250k block size that's, what, ~600MB?
414 2012-07-28 19:11:05 <luke-jr> jgarzik: good luck, debugging memory with Python is ridiculously difficult
415 2012-07-28 19:12:11 <luke-jr> to "fix" Eloipool's leaks, I added a transparent "users don't notice" restart <.<
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421 2012-07-28 19:25:35 * jgarzik needs to implement the signature cache
422 2012-07-28 19:25:53 <jgarzik> otherwise there is a heart-stopping freeze when a block full of TX's comes down the pipe to pynode
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426 2012-07-28 19:29:26 * jgarzik wonders if there is an alternate python implementation that supports threads
427 2012-07-28 19:30:10 <jgarzik> hmmm, maybe parrot avoided the GIL problem with their threading
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432 2012-07-28 19:43:05 <jgarzik> hah, finally hit a [C/C++ compiler would-have-caught-this] bug at
433 2012-07-28 19:43:06 <jgarzik> Scanned 1882086 tx, 157785 blocks (0 failures)
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435 2012-07-28 19:44:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: i dont think the difficulty malleability is a problem worth breaking testnet again for
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437 2012-07-28 19:44:41 <jgarzik> based on time(1), it verifies 14 blocks/second
438 2012-07-28 19:46:20 <jgarzik> wall clock time 3.05 hours to verify 157k blocks
439 2012-07-28 19:47:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: ::nods:: What I did was rewrite my test to trigger only timewarp, not malleability (by warping the last two, so that the last one is not at the special case diff).
440 2012-07-28 19:47:47 <gmaxwell> so I'm no longer blocked on a decision there, though I agree it's probably not important.
441 2012-07-28 19:48:01 <gmaxwell> I thought it was more important when I thought it was preventing me from inserting a timewarp test.
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450 2012-07-28 20:08:21 <jgarzik> bleh, multi-processing.  it's so 1990s.
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505 2012-07-28 21:56:00 <denebeim> howdee
506 2012-07-28 21:56:19 <denebeim> I've got a terminology questionb.
507 2012-07-28 21:56:23 <denebeim> er question.
508 2012-07-28 21:58:06 danbri_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
509 2012-07-28 21:58:30 <xorgate> ask
510 2012-07-28 21:59:15 <denebeim> why is it called 'mining'?  It seems to me a more appropriate term would be forging, or am I not understaning the process?
511 2012-07-28 21:59:35 <xorgate> it's called that because there's no guarantee you will find anything
512 2012-07-28 21:59:48 <xorgate> you look, maybe you find, you look, maybe you find...
513 2012-07-28 22:00:31 <denebeim> Can you see why I'd think forging is a good term?  I'm really trying to understand how this works.  (being a geek and all)
514 2012-07-28 22:00:33 <xorgate> the difficulty makes it so that it becomes harder to find, depending on the globally available cpu power
515 2012-07-28 22:00:40 <xorgate> no forging is a worse term
516 2012-07-28 22:01:00 <xorgate> forging implies a guaranteed result
517 2012-07-28 22:01:09 Matt_von_Mises has joined
518 2012-07-28 22:01:16 <denebeim> There is a guaranteed result for the network.
519 2012-07-28 22:01:31 <xorgate> not really, but i see what you mean
520 2012-07-28 22:01:46 <xorgate> it's likely that a result is found (in 10 minutes)
521 2012-07-28 22:02:05 <xorgate> but you, as a 'miner', have very little guarantee, every time you calculate a hash
522 2012-07-28 22:03:02 <Matt_von_Mises> Bitcoin uses a funny way to relay unsolicited addresses to other nodes. Essentially it sends to the same nodes for 24 hours at a time and then has other random nodes?
523 2012-07-28 22:03:11 <denebeim> The thing that I liked about the term is that in forging you expend energy to heat the crucible to melt the metal.  In bitcoins you expend energy to calculate the hash that melts the coins into a new configuration or something like that.
524 2012-07-28 22:03:14 <Matt_von_Mises> At least that's what the comment seems to say.
525 2012-07-28 22:03:25 <xorgate> think of throwing a 100 sided dice, when the 'difficulty' is 50 (you have to throw lower than 50) it's more likely to come up a win, if the difficulty is 10, it's harder
526 2012-07-28 22:04:08 <Matt_von_Mises> People use mining farms to heat their homes I think. I read that somewhere.
527 2012-07-28 22:04:18 <xorgate> if more people mine, the system adjusts the difficulty even lower
528 2012-07-28 22:05:12 <xorgate> but i guess if 51% of the people agree the term should be forging, it will be forging :)
529 2012-07-28 22:05:19 <denebeim> Oh sure I understand.  The problem that I have with 'mining' is that it implies that it's coins that are being mined, really though it's the transactions that are mined.
530 2012-07-28 22:05:25 <Matt_von_Mises> denebeim's comment reminded me of that.
531 2012-07-28 22:05:35 <Matt_von_Mises> Not enough heat to forge metal though.
532 2012-07-28 22:05:42 <xorgate> denebeim what do you mean by 'transactions being mined' ?
533 2012-07-28 22:06:09 <denebeim> that's where I think I may be misunderstanding the algorythm.
534 2012-07-28 22:06:19 <Matt_von_Mises> "found" would perhaps be more accurate.
535 2012-07-28 22:06:25 <Matt_von_Mises> Miners -> finders
536 2012-07-28 22:06:50 <denebeim> Validated.  It's the hash that's found.  The transactions are being validated arn't they?
537 2012-07-28 22:06:57 <OneEyed> "discovered"? The way Chuck Moore discovered Forth.
538 2012-07-28 22:07:03 <xorgate> a miner puts transactions into a potential block, and adds some numbers and calculates a hash. this may or not generate a valid block
539 2012-07-28 22:07:39 <Matt_von_Mises> You need to find a valid hash.
540 2012-07-28 22:07:52 <Matt_von_Mises> Hence "found".
541 2012-07-28 22:07:55 <denebeim> right.  but it's the transactions that are important.  The hash is just to force the transactions to cost something (scads of cpu cycles)
542 2012-07-28 22:08:15 <Matt_von_Mises> Miners wont put bad transactions in blocks
543 2012-07-28 22:08:29 <xorgate> correct, in a way
544 2012-07-28 22:08:49 <Matt_von_Mises> They find valid transactions… Hence "found" again.
545 2012-07-28 22:08:54 <OneEyed> Even if they did, that wouldn't make them valid…
546 2012-07-28 22:09:26 <OneEyed> (and fortunately, otherwise a miner could spend outputs for which it doesn't have the private key)
547 2012-07-28 22:09:29 <denebeim> it's proof that you validated the transaction I assume.
548 2012-07-28 22:10:05 <xorgate> everyone validates tx. if you encounter a block with an invalid tx, you discard it
549 2012-07-28 22:10:06 <Matt_von_Mises> Miners just validate the transaction spends from an unspent transaction output right? Not a problem.
550 2012-07-28 22:10:12 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
551 2012-07-28 22:10:14 <xorgate> and because everyone does that, it's useless
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554 2012-07-28 22:10:43 <Matt_von_Mises> Miners care about the chain they are building upon and should validate from there.
555 2012-07-28 22:11:04 <denebeim> question, what exactly does a transaction contain, the source address, dest address, tip, timestamp, and the whole mess is signed by the source address?
556 2012-07-28 22:11:07 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm not sure what level of stupidity is in the mining software out there.
557 2012-07-28 22:11:27 <Matt_von_Mises> denebeim: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx
558 2012-07-28 22:12:13 <denebeim> yeah I'm poking aroudn the wiki right now, hadn't gotten there yet.  the only whole article I've read is the one on wikipedia
559 2012-07-28 22:12:49 friendlyghost has joined
560 2012-07-28 22:12:50 <denebeim> The more I'm thinking about it, the cooler it is.
561 2012-07-28 22:13:18 <Matt_von_Mises> denebeim: Transactions have inputs and outputs. Inputs and outputs and scripts. Outputs describe how to redeem bitcoins, inputs provide the information to redeem them.
562 2012-07-28 22:13:57 <xorgate> denebeim yeh it's pretty awesome :) soon you'll be buying your own btc
563 2012-07-28 22:13:58 <Matt_von_Mises> Outputs contain a value of bitcoins which can be redeemed. It is valid if the output values total less than the value of the inputs (which is the outputs the inputs are spending).
564 2012-07-28 22:14:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Anyway… I need to figure out how bitcoin-qt relays addresses...
565 2012-07-28 22:14:43 Marf has joined
566 2012-07-28 22:14:46 <denebeim> I haven't found a good place to buy them.  The total amount that bitinstant charges is quite a bit.
567 2012-07-28 22:15:15 <OneEyed> denebeim: what currency do you start with?
568 2012-07-28 22:15:18 <denebeim> I mean between the cost they charge themselves, plus the cost the wiring company charges.
569 2012-07-28 22:15:20 <denebeim> Dollars.
570 2012-07-28 22:15:23 <Matt_von_Mises> I used intersango which worked for me.
571 2012-07-28 22:15:29 <xorgate> yes intersango as well
572 2012-07-28 22:15:37 balrog has quit (Quit: Bye)
573 2012-07-28 22:15:53 <Matt_von_Mises> INtersango is good for GBP, not sure about USD
574 2012-07-28 22:16:28 <denebeim> The coolest thing about it is since it's open source everyone can see whatever is going on.  although the rate at which the chain is growing is disturbing.
575 2012-07-28 22:16:36 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
576 2012-07-28 22:16:41 <denebeim> Hasn't it doubled in size since april?
577 2012-07-28 22:17:00 <Matt_von_Mises> denebeim: You do not need the block-chain to make and accept payments.
578 2012-07-28 22:17:08 <Matt_von_Mises> You can use a lightweight client.
579 2012-07-28 22:17:32 <denebeim> I've been running bitcoin-qt
580 2012-07-28 22:17:54 <Matt_von_Mises> bitcoin-qt takes me ages to update only a few days worth of blocks
581 2012-07-28 22:17:58 <denebeim> and bitcoind of course, same model, different view
582 2012-07-28 22:18:02 <Matt_von_Mises> A few hours in fact.
583 2012-07-28 22:18:17 <OneEyed> Matt_von_Mises: even my Android client doesn't take that long…
584 2012-07-28 22:18:33 <Matt_von_Mises> OneEyed: Bad internet I'm afraid.
585 2012-07-28 22:18:41 <denebeim> Well, what's the best client you think?  For ubuntu.
586 2012-07-28 22:18:43 <Matt_von_Mises> internet connection that is.
587 2012-07-28 22:19:10 <Matt_von_Mises> I use OSX so I'm not sure about ubuntu.
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590 2012-07-28 22:19:55 <denebeim> AHHHH now I get it.  Each transaction can have many source addresses and many dest addresses?
591 2012-07-28 22:20:13 <OneEyed> denebeim: yes
592 2012-07-28 22:20:47 <OneEyed> denebeim: and more often than not, one of the destination addresses is for the change you get back if you don't spend the whole inputs
593 2012-07-28 22:20:57 <denebeim> Yeah it was seeming like a pain moving coins between addresses.
594 2012-07-28 22:21:13 <OneEyed> denebeim: because when you spend an input, you consume it in full (an input being one of the outputs of an earlier transaction, except in case of a newly mined block)
595 2012-07-28 22:21:22 <Matt_von_Mises> Transactions use scripts which can use bitcoin addresses or not.
596 2012-07-28 22:21:47 <OneEyed> Matt_von_Mises: I've yet to see a transaction with a "drop true" validation script :)
597 2012-07-28 22:21:52 <Matt_von_Mises> Bitcoin addresses are an abstraction over the script.
598 2012-07-28 22:21:54 <OneEyed> (which could be used by anyone)
599 2012-07-28 22:22:04 <Matt_von_Mises> OneEyed: IP transactions have no addresses.
600 2012-07-28 22:22:22 <OneEyed> Matt_von_Mises: how are they used?
601 2012-07-28 22:22:40 <OneEyed> Ok, found https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/IP_Transactions
602 2012-07-28 22:22:40 <denebeim> oh the script is the signature?  You could use any algorithm you wanted to sign your transaction?
603 2012-07-28 22:23:15 <OneEyed> denebeim: yes. The script is some Forth-like code. You execute the input then the outputs, and it must let true onto the stack
604 2012-07-28 22:23:18 <Matt_von_Mises> "You could use any algorithm you wanted to sign your transaction?" ONly ECDSA but the script can allow for things such as multi-signature transactions.
605 2012-07-28 22:23:40 balrog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
606 2012-07-28 22:23:48 <denebeim> Figures, obviously invented by a math geek ;-)
607 2012-07-28 22:23:56 <denebeim> therefore forth
608 2012-07-28 22:24:24 <OneEyed> Ok, found https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/IP_Transactions  <=== not the same thing I guess
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610 2012-07-28 22:25:22 <Matt_von_Mises> OneEyed: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Standard_Generation_.2F_transaction_to_IP_address
611 2012-07-28 22:25:31 <OneEyed> denebeim: the stack lets you pass a variable number of arguments from the input script to the (previous) output script. For example, you can pass a signature to a script that checks that the signature is valid and was made by the right private key.
612 2012-07-28 22:25:39 <OneEyed> Matt_von_Mises: thanks, reading
613 2012-07-28 22:25:42 <Matt_von_Mises> Used as the output for the block reward too.
614 2012-07-28 22:26:40 <denebeim> oh that reminds me the per transaction block award, how does that work?  Does every miner that includes the transaction get it, or the first one, or what?
615 2012-07-28 22:27:38 <Matt_von_Mises> You mean the transaction fee?
616 2012-07-28 22:27:39 <OneEyed> The first one: each transaction is included only once in the block chain.
617 2012-07-28 22:28:01 <OneEyed> (it would be discarded for having invalid inputs in later blocks)
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619 2012-07-28 22:28:17 <Matt_von_Mises> Transaction fees are when the input value is greater than the output value. The miner can take the difference.
620 2012-07-28 22:28:27 <denebeim> Ah, I'm not understanding something then.  where does the multiple confirmations come from?
621 2012-07-28 22:28:52 <OneEyed> denebeim: blocks are chained. A transaction included in the latest block in the chain gets 1 confirmation. In the block before, 2 confirmations. And so on.
622 2012-07-28 22:29:10 <Matt_von_Mises> Multi-confirmations is when a miner mines a block on a chain with your transaction in it.
623 2012-07-28 22:29:14 <OneEyed> ("the" chain being the chain with the greater total difficulty)
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625 2012-07-28 22:29:30 <Matt_von_Mises> The more blocks in the chain after the block with your transaction, the more confirmations.
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627 2012-07-28 22:30:08 <Matt_von_Mises> The more blocks, the harder it is to greate a competing chain, hence the harder it is to reverse transactions
628 2012-07-28 22:30:15 <Matt_von_Mises> greate = create
629 2012-07-28 22:30:21 <denebeim> ah, okay so its presence in the chain is all that's needed, the length is to make sure it wasn't on a chain that was cancled out
630 2012-07-28 22:31:10 <OneEyed> denebeim: exactly
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632 2012-07-28 22:31:20 <Matt_von_Mises> Well the longer the chain is from other branches, the harder it is to reverse transactions via a new chain.
633 2012-07-28 22:31:53 <Matt_von_Mises> Hence why the more confirmations you get, the stronger the transaction is in terms of irreversibility.
634 2012-07-28 22:31:55 <denebeim> I'm watching the bitcoind load at the moment, it looks like every block that was generated is included including the ones that are orphaned?
635 2012-07-28 22:32:47 <OneEyed> denebeim: that's surprising, I mean I thought other peers would not transmit blocks not belonging to the main chain as they see it
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638 2012-07-28 22:33:32 <denebeim> well, I'm seeing what the debugging code is calling an 'orphan block'  I can't see how that could be anything else
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640 2012-07-28 22:34:13 <denebeim> I just passed the 100000th block
641 2012-07-28 22:34:20 <OneEyed> I haven't read that part of the code, but that's surprising. What would be the point of transmitting orphaned blocks around?
642 2012-07-28 22:34:34 <denebeim> I was wondering that myself.
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644 2012-07-28 22:35:48 <Matt_von_Mises> I think cbitcoin will just need a different address relaying system to bitcoin-qt. It's too confusing in bitcoin-qt.
645 2012-07-28 22:36:04 <denebeim> my only guess is that the database keeps every block it's seen.  dumb algorythm?
646 2012-07-28 22:36:55 <OneEyed> denebeim: well, keeping orphaned blocks is not really a problem. But transmitting them, I mean, why would you even get a reference on them since you supposedly start from the current end of the chain?
647 2012-07-28 22:37:02 <denebeim> why keep the pruned out ones?
648 2012-07-28 22:37:20 <OneEyed> denebeim: no reason, but little harm too I guess
649 2012-07-28 22:37:29 <denebeim> I would think you would only need to keep the orphans back to the last checkblock.
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651 2012-07-28 22:38:01 <OneEyed> Don't forget that orphan blocks can be reused later if the current chain is switched again
652 2012-07-28 22:38:10 <denebeim> The thing is it seems to me that the larger the system gets the more likely it is to have orphan blocks.
653 2012-07-28 22:38:29 <OneEyed> So it may make sense to keep them around, to avoid useless retransmission if we play ping-pong between two chains
654 2012-07-28 22:39:07 <OneEyed> (but they could probably get discarded if they branch deep in the current active chain)
655 2012-07-28 22:39:35 <denebeim> My understanding is each version of the software has a block number and hash hard coded.  That's the 'official' chain, seems like any orphan earlier than that could never be used again.
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657 2012-07-28 22:40:11 <Matt_von_Mises> I must go so bye.
658 2012-07-28 22:40:16 <denebeim> nice meeting you
659 2012-07-28 22:40:23 <denebeim> i ment to tell you something
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661 2012-07-28 22:40:39 <Matt_von_Mises> Good luck grasping it all.
662 2012-07-28 22:40:48 <Matt_von_Mises> Tell me quickly if you can
663 2012-07-28 22:41:06 <denebeim> I was just going to make a crack about 'mises pieces'
664 2012-07-28 22:41:26 <denebeim> theres a coin with mise in the front that is breakable into bits
665 2012-07-28 22:41:49 <denebeim> so I hear on the interwebs anyway
666 2012-07-28 22:42:14 <denebeim> I've gotta go too, party tonight.  gathering to watch game of thrones
667 2012-07-28 22:42:40 <denebeim> thanks for all the information.  oh what was that other trader name again?
668 2012-07-28 22:42:43 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh right. I'll take a look another day. Ciao.
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