1 2012-07-29 00:03:31 <maaku> jgarzik: maybe stackless python is what you want?
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 20 2012-07-29 01:21:23 <graingert> stackless?
 21 2012-07-29 01:21:25 <graingert> pythong?
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 28 2012-07-29 01:50:41 <gmaxwell> OSX DRM making it hard for people to run the reference client: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=96325.0
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 41 2012-07-29 02:18:41 <jgarzik> maaku: green threads... meh
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 43 2012-07-29 02:20:36 <jgarzik> someone just needs to JIT python already.  not halfway (pypy) but all the way.
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 46 2012-07-29 02:20:50 <jgarzik> the python language fundamentally does -not- require GIL
 47 2012-07-29 02:20:58 <NASDAQEnema> hai guys
 48 2012-07-29 02:21:02 <jgarzik> parrot might be the only hope
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 51 2012-07-29 02:21:24 <NASDAQEnema> I may have killed the 51% problem.
 52 2012-07-29 02:21:26 <NASDAQEnema> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=96365.msg1061940#msg1061940
 53 2012-07-29 02:22:13 <NASDAQEnema> essentially allow multiple attackers to compete during the attack and work out a way to measure consistent production of blocks,
 54 2012-07-29 02:22:37 <NASDAQEnema> the more attackers the higher the threshold and the lower the reward.
 55 2012-07-29 02:23:42 <gmaxwell> Please keep the gibberish on the forums.
 56 2012-07-29 02:24:06 <NASDAQEnema> lol
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 62 2012-07-29 02:38:04 <MC1984> how do i do the datadir thing?
 63 2012-07-29 02:38:40 <MC1984> can i specify the blockchain to be on an external drive say
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 66 2012-07-29 02:56:16 <jgarzik> humbug.  pynode script verification dies on TX eb3b82c0884e3efa6d8b0be55b4915eb20be124c9766245bcc7f34fdac32bccb (block #163685 or so)
 67 2012-07-29 02:58:11 <jgarzik> looks like that requires both bignum encoding and CHECKMULTISIG
 68 2012-07-29 02:58:48 * jgarzik looks around for lower hanging fruit... it's the weekend after all :)
 69 2012-07-29 03:00:00 * jgarzik thinks he can do bignums-in-scripts simply by using python arbitrary-sized longs...  but I still need to figure out MPI encoding.
 70 2012-07-29 03:00:24 <jgarzik> openssl's code seems to imply you shift the value out 1 byte at a time, in big endian order
 71 2012-07-29 03:00:44 <jgarzik> 4-byte big endian size pre-pended, and final byte or'd with 0x80 for sign
 72 2012-07-29 03:00:55 <jgarzik> but that's just a quick read
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 84 2012-07-29 04:02:48 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: fanquake opened pull request 48 on bitcoin/bitcoin.org <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/48>
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 90 2012-07-29 04:29:56 <jgarzik> Well, it's a start.  My own non-OpenSSL bignum.py matches OpenSSL's MPI encoding at least 50% of the time ;)
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105 2012-07-29 05:18:56 <theymos> gmaxwell: I was thinking about the future of the max block size. What do you think about each node automatically setting its max block size to a calculated value based on disk space and bandwidth: "I have 100 GB disk space available, 10 MB per 10 minutes download speed and 1 MB per 10 minutes upload speed, so I'll stop relaying blocks [discouraging them] if they're near 1/8 MB [enough for each peer] and stop accepting them at all if they're over
106 2012-07-29 05:18:56 <theymos>  2MB because I'd run out of disk space in less than a year at that rate". If Bitcoin ends up rejecting a long chain due to its max block size, it can ask the user whether he wants to switch to a lightweight mode. I think that this would incentivize miners to keep blocks small enough that most users (at least all merchants) can download them, but it would cause fewer problems than manually adjusting the max block size in the client every so often
107 2012-07-29 05:18:56 <theymos> .
108 2012-07-29 05:21:17 <gmaxwell> theymos: What I'd like to first do before even asking that question is solve it so you can do full validation without a historical copy of the chain.
109 2012-07-29 05:21:34 <gmaxwell> Becuase that changes the kind of answers which are acceptable to the blocksize question.
110 2012-07-29 05:22:03 <gmaxwell> E.g. your size tolerance becomes more driven by the number of ecdsa validations you can perform per second and network bandwidth than long term storage if you have the option of going 'storageless'.
111 2012-07-29 05:24:15 <theymos> "full validation without a historical copy of the chain" <- Is the current best plan for this still a hash tree of unspent outputs, with the root in each block?
112 2012-07-29 05:24:58 <gmaxwell> Yes. (Though there are lots of variations on the details floating around)
113 2012-07-29 05:25:26 <gmaxwell> Also the notice-of-treachery thing I suggested.
114 2012-07-29 05:26:17 <theymos> OK. I think those a good ideas. With those, you think no max block size would be OK?
115 2012-07-29 05:26:21 <gmaxwell> basically make it so that when nodes observe that a chain has broken the rules they pull out the minimum data require to prove the violation and share it widely.. if you get such a proof you can use it to reject a bad chain, even if the violation happens in part of the chain you didn't wittness yourself.
116 2012-07-29 05:27:40 <gmaxwell> theymos: Perhaps not no-max, but a chain agreed max would probably be okay.
117 2012-07-29 05:28:28 <gmaxwell> The problem with no-max is that one griefer could make one 1TB (or pick some other value that would break lots of nodes but only about half of them) block and cause enormous partitioning.
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120 2012-07-29 05:31:50 <gmaxwell> theymos: we'd have to hardfork to change the max, so I'd hope that the scaling improvements that have been circulating around would get integrated as part an parcel of that change.
121 2012-07-29 05:32:03 <theymos> Yeah, that sounds good. Currently miners don't care about the long-term implications of large blocks -- they only want them to be accepted widely when the block is mined. Removing the long-term implications fixes it.
122 2012-07-29 05:32:56 <gmaxwell> Also need to be careful with the future economic assumptions. If miners can set their instant max to $enormous in order to collect all the fees you don't get market pressure to increase fees, just a race to the bottom.
123 2012-07-29 05:34:37 <theymos> That does seem to be a problem. I haven't thought about that one much, but artificially fixing the supply makes me uneasy. I'd prefer a more free-market solution.
124 2012-07-29 05:35:02 <gmaxwell> heh, without limited supply you can't have a market. ;)
125 2012-07-29 05:36:34 <gmaxwell> (and alternatively if there isn't a protocol rule to set the max you'll get miners that set it by back conspiring to reject certian blocks, a bad precident and bad for uninvolved nodes who won't know when a block is going to get killed by the cartel)
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127 2012-07-29 05:40:22 <theymos> If storage doesn't matter, then the transaction space isn't too limited naturally. What we care about is network hashing power -- we don't want this to get too low. Artificially limiting the transaction space isn't a very free-market solution for getting the "right" network hashing power -- it may be too low or too high, and end-users can't change it easily. Ideally you'd want paying more fees to get you more hashing power for just your transact
128 2012-07-29 05:40:22 <theymos> ions.
129 2012-07-29 05:41:19 <gmaxwell> But hashing power for _your_ transaction isn't what you want, you want hashing power in the future chain to make it expensive to reverse. Also it's the recipent who wants it, not the sender. :( Lots of tragedy of the commons room.
130 2012-07-29 05:42:15 <gmaxwell> And storage still matters some and transaction validation computational complexity matters and network bandwidth grows much slower than storage and computation speeds.
131 2012-07-29 05:42:27 <gmaxwell> So there are still real limited supply things here, but they don't naturally form a market.
132 2012-07-29 05:42:46 <gmaxwell> Because you'd always rather _someone else_ take the cost of paying for the security.
133 2012-07-29 05:42:53 <gmaxwell> but if it's insecure we all suffer.
134 2012-07-29 05:43:25 <gmaxwell> But there are orders of magnitude.. e.g. if we can make it 100x more scalable then thats a big improvement.
135 2012-07-29 05:46:40 <theymos> Mike Hearn mentioned that big miners might normally stay inactive, but confirm transactions really fast if they have enough fees. Maybe this'd be enough to keep difficulty reasonably high.
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137 2012-07-29 05:49:31 <gmaxwell> theymos: Not as helpful as you think at first glance.. that gets you the one confirm, but it doesn't bury the transaction. It would potentially make the chain very burst too, in which case you're going to have to have a seperate clearance network to make it reasonable usable.
138 2012-07-29 05:49:59 <gmaxwell> So once you've done that, well, lack of per block throughput matters less.
139 2012-07-29 05:52:28 <theymos> The recipient could spend the transaction with a fee for every confirmation they'd like to have. A separate network does seem like a likely solution, though.
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141 2012-07-29 06:01:42 <gmaxwell> theymos: a seperate network has a LOT of benefits. e.g. near instant confirmations, and the ability to keep the main chain very distributed because maintaining it is cheap.
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143 2012-07-29 06:03:16 <theymos> Do you imagine a Bitcoin-like side-network? Or centralized blind signing services? Or something else?
144 2012-07-29 06:03:44 <gmaxwell> I don't know, this is something the market can decide on. Different things have different advantages.
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146 2012-07-29 06:04:26 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin-like will always have issues with 'slow' confirmations for some definition of slow.
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148 2012-07-29 06:08:06 <theymos> Did you read that post on the forum about using hashcoin's "payment channels" concept with a network of payment processors for cheap, instant payments to anyone? That's a neat idea that might solve this problem if Bitcoin transactions don't get *too* expensive.
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150 2012-07-29 06:08:43 <jgarzik> w00t.   bignum.py output now matches openssl byte-for-byte.  input will be left for later.
151 2012-07-29 06:08:50 * jgarzik can now support OP_1 and friends
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156 2012-07-29 06:15:07 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened issue 1637 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1637>
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185 2012-07-29 09:45:18 <SomeoneWeird> can we ever expect http proxy support?
186 2012-07-29 09:45:40 <SomeoneWeird> i mean, theres socks
187 2012-07-29 09:45:56 <Diablo-D3> probably not
188 2012-07-29 09:46:16 <Diablo-D3> http proxy is only good for http
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190 2012-07-29 09:50:53 <SomeoneWeird> heh, true
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200 2012-07-29 10:20:00 <wumpus> http CONNECT could work, I suppose
201 2012-07-29 10:22:08 <wumpus> could be useful for going through corporate firewalls, though a lot block ports != 443
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203 2012-07-29 10:35:50 <SomeoneWeird> yerp
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222 2012-07-29 12:10:08 <MC-Eeepc> the alt chain subforum is pants on head retarded
223 2012-07-29 12:10:29 <MC-Eeepc> its been a number of years since i saw this level of forum drama
224 2012-07-29 12:11:17 <MC-Eeepc> seems like they even went and tried to dox each other and ended up threatening a small girl with rape on the phone
225 2012-07-29 12:17:17 <Joric> someone just 51% raped LTC guess that's the reason to worry
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230 2012-07-29 12:24:48 <jrmithdobbs> i have no words for this
231 2012-07-29 12:25:15 <jrmithdobbs> http://home.jrbobdobbs.org/mith/lol-code-signing-10.8-fail.png
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234 2012-07-29 12:28:38 <upb> whta does that have to do with code signing?
235 2012-07-29 12:32:44 <jrmithdobbs> upb: look at the dates. /usr/bin/ssh has the date all files from my 10.8 upgrade have as c/mtime ;p
236 2012-07-29 12:33:12 <jrmithdobbs> upb: /opt/local/bin/ssh is from macports and was built before upgrade.
237 2012-07-29 12:33:37 <jrmithdobbs> upb: aka, i am 100% sure it is not signed.
238 2012-07-29 12:35:31 <jrmithdobbs> upb: hoorah security theatre
239 2012-07-29 12:36:37 <upb> oh
240 2012-07-29 12:38:30 <jrmithdobbs> upb: great huh
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242 2012-07-29 12:38:59 <jrmithdobbs> afaict signing stuff only applies to app packages and can be worked around by launching a file open dialog to open the other bin you want to run worst case
243 2012-07-29 12:39:02 <jrmithdobbs> ha
244 2012-07-29 12:39:06 <jrmithdobbs> I haven't dug too deeply
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293 2012-07-29 15:42:58 <jgarzik> dodecahedron
294 2012-07-29 15:51:28 <MC-Eeepc> fuck yea geometry
295 2012-07-29 15:53:17 <Joric> it would be cool to make something like that for bitcoin addresses http://internet-map.net
296 2012-07-29 15:54:10 <Joric> says there are 350,000 sites and 2m+ links in case of bitcoin there will be more than 5m adresses
297 2012-07-29 15:54:37 <Joric> it took several weeks for rebalancing the graph (on CPU)
298 2012-07-29 15:55:01 <Joric> rendered 30m tiles (256x256)
299 2012-07-29 16:02:37 <Joric> hm there's no blockchain.info probably old data
300 2012-07-29 16:02:54 <Joric> said he used alexa database
301 2012-07-29 16:04:17 <Joric> seems theres no .info sites at all
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309 2012-07-29 16:20:27 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jgarzik opened issue 1638 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1638>
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311 2012-07-29 16:35:13 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:29:53 SetBestChain: new best=000000000000044fa137  height=191369  work=406085148475160689314  date=07/29/12 16:29:20
312 2012-07-29 16:35:13 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:29:53 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
313 2012-07-29 16:35:13 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:29:53 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
314 2012-07-29 16:35:18 <jgarzik> last line x 3
315 2012-07-29 16:36:01 * jgarzik would not have expected my node receiving a block (and broadcasting its availability to peers) to trigger other clients issuing a blank 'getblocks'
316 2012-07-29 16:36:38 <jgarzik> if not a bug, its as if it wants to re-check the first 500 blocks of the chain, when a new block arrives
317 2012-07-29 16:37:52 <jgarzik> getpeerinfo only reports two non-satoshi-0.6 clients connected: vers 40000 and 50601
318 2012-07-29 16:38:09 <jgarzik> blank strSubVer
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325 2012-07-29 17:00:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: what happens there is this: new node starts. It has no blocks. It asks its first peer for blocks
326 2012-07-29 17:00:58 <gmaxwell> The first peer is unresponsive (for whatever reason)
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328 2012-07-29 17:01:18 <gmaxwell> Then, later, you announce a block. It now tries to pull the chain from you.
329 2012-07-29 17:02:12 <gmaxwell> I think that explains what you observed? A more interesting question is why does it seem like nodes are getting stuck ok on the IBD more often now.
330 2012-07-29 17:03:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no nodes with startingheight < 191300
331 2012-07-29 17:04:25 <jgarzik> I wonder if satoshi client will send out a blank CBlockLocator() for some strange reason
332 2012-07-29 17:04:46 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
333 2012-07-29 17:04:53 <jgarzik> and again,
334 2012-07-29 17:04:55 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:59:35 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000085e1fe  height=191373  work=406117213322897547414  date=07/29/12 16:59:09
335 2012-07-29 17:04:55 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:59:35 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
336 2012-07-29 17:04:55 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:59:35 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
337 2012-07-29 17:04:55 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:59:35 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 3a99a23b9a (poolsz 772)
338 2012-07-29 17:04:55 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:59:36 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
339 2012-07-29 17:05:10 <jgarzik> 07/29/12 16:59:38 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
340 2012-07-29 17:05:53 <jgarzik> all connected peers are /Satoshi:0.6*/ except the two versions listed above
341 2012-07-29 17:06:10 <gmaxwell> hm. Quite odd.
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410 2012-07-29 21:22:15 <c4pt-otc> does anyone know if its possible to fit more than eight 6990's into one machine if each 6990 uses two gpus
411 2012-07-29 21:22:38 <jrmithdobbs> wrong channel
412 2012-07-29 21:23:25 <luke-jr> c4pt-otc: likely, if your motherboard supports VT-d
413 2012-07-29 21:24:13 <c4pt-otc> jrmithdobbs, what channel should i ask in #bitcoin?
414 2012-07-29 21:24:32 <jrmithdobbs> c4pt-otc: #bitcoin-mining or #clustercomput (the last is a guess)
415 2012-07-29 21:24:33 <c4pt-otc> thinking about putting eight 7990s into this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816152125
416 2012-07-29 21:25:17 <luke-jr> c4pt-otc: why not just get a bunch of x1 slots? :p
417 2012-07-29 21:25:25 <luke-jr> I'd fill that with 12 cards
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419 2012-07-29 21:25:59 <c4pt-otc> luke-jr, more performance with 6990 or 7990
420 2012-07-29 21:27:49 <SomeoneWeird> barely
421 2012-07-29 21:27:58 <luke-jr> c4pt-otc: x1 vs x16 makes no difference in performance
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423 2012-07-29 21:31:10 <SomeoneWeird> (if you're only mining)
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