1 2012-08-01 00:01:04 <jgarzik> plus, I don't fancy sipa wants to keep a history of TX versions, to manage the network upgrade rules
  2 2012-08-01 00:01:12 <luke-jr> no reason NOT to make it on the coinbase version
  3 2012-08-01 00:01:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: clients could easily cache it with the block
  4 2012-08-01 00:01:36 <sipa> as such, i don't think it matters much
  5 2012-08-01 00:01:43 <luke-jr> sipa: it doesn't, but I foresee a lot of hiccups during the transition as-is
  6 2012-08-01 00:01:58 <sipa> as a coinbase transaction doesn't occur in the wild without a block
  7 2012-08-01 00:02:00 <luke-jr> sipa: already we have p2pool + height-in-coinbase-bitcoind making ver=2,coinbase=no-height blocks
  8 2012-08-01 00:02:25 <jgarzik> the whole point of adding height is to tie the coinbase TX even more intimately to one specific block, which is intrinsically an operation about the container (the block)
  9 2012-08-01 00:02:48 <jgarzik> luke-jr: and gavinandresen already told you that is irrelevant
 10 2012-08-01 00:03:02 <sipa> still, i think i prefer to keep transaction versions linked to the ruleset need for transaction validation
 11 2012-08-01 00:03:40 <sipa> and the coinbase requirement is a rule which is meaningless in the context of transaction validity
 12 2012-08-01 00:03:48 <sipa> (without a block)
 13 2012-08-01 00:04:30 <sipa> so i'd say block version, not transaction version
 14 2012-08-01 00:05:48 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I was asking for sipa's input, but I must have missed that comment from gavinandresen - I don't see in my emails where he commented on the problem of having two independent pieces of software putting the blocks together
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 22 2012-08-01 00:20:45 <jgarzik> oh come on.  pylint complains about one-character symbols?
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 24 2012-08-01 00:22:27 <sipa> yes, always use descriptive and grammatically correct phrases as variable names
 25 2012-08-01 00:22:54 <jgarzik> hehehe
 26 2012-08-01 00:24:53 <sipa> like Variable_Whose_Value__Occasionally_Changes
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 36 2012-08-01 01:06:49 <lordcirth> Bitcoind is crashing on Crunchbang, worked earlier: http://pastebin.com/ueYTFuN2
 37 2012-08-01 01:08:10 <gmaxwell> lordcirth: I guess you had a power outage or other unclean shutdown?
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 43 2012-08-01 01:21:02 <lordcirth> gmaxwall: Probably, I do that a lot. How do I fix it?
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 45 2012-08-01 01:24:22 <lordcirth> gmaxwall: Just deleted ~/.bitcoin, seems ok now.
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 50 2012-08-01 01:41:18 <gmaxwell> lordcirth: sorry, missed your response.. yes that will fix it.
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 82 2012-08-01 03:20:09 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: has the 0.6.3 had full disclosure yet?
 83 2012-08-01 03:21:15 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: no, still under treshold and probably will remain so until the next major release.
 84 2012-08-01 03:22:12 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Thought so. Apologies in advance for the upcoming post. :-/
 85 2012-08-01 03:23:10 <doublec> midnightmagic: upcoming post where?
 86 2012-08-01 03:23:21 <midnightmagic> doublec: Just a bit of a rant. No big deal.
 87 2012-08-01 03:26:06 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: We preannounced that the details would come out at a certian percentage of upgraded nodes.
 88 2012-08-01 03:26:27 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: go encourage people to upgrade instead of whining.
 89 2012-08-01 03:26:54 da2ce718 has joined
 90 2012-08-01 03:29:39 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Characterizing it as "whining" when you already know the details is irritating on a level I refuse to fully convey. Not all of us have the position of information privilege that you have, nor have the extensive time of a full-time security researcher to go looking for exploits based on deliberately misleading hints. How can I even evaluate whether *-dev has fixed the issue properly? How can I measure if there's someone
 91 2012-08-01 03:29:45 <midnightmagic> trying to take advantage? Did the qt issue ever get full disclosure?
 92 2012-08-01 03:30:13 <gmaxwell> Yes, eons ago. And you were aware of it.
 93 2012-08-01 03:31:31 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: If you didn't agree with the upgrade threshold stuff why didn't you complain previous. You are a part of this community too, and months delayed rates directed to the public at large are not an appropriate or effective communication channel.
 94 2012-08-01 03:31:40 <midnightmagic> That's true, but it's table scraps man. :-/
 95 2012-08-01 03:32:13 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Whats table scraps? AFAIK, You know _everything_ I know.
 96 2012-08-01 03:32:13 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I did. I have. Often and at-length. The usual response I get is "stop whining."
 97 2012-08-01 03:32:41 <gmaxwell> (on the QT one)
 98 2012-08-01 03:32:56 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I don't know the 0.6.3 details yet.
 99 2012-08-01 03:33:08 <gmaxwell> Then go get people to upgrade!
100 2012-08-01 03:34:17 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: As though I'll somehow be more successful than the devs, the forum, the download sites, and the IRC channels.. Here's a twelve-tonne rock. Lift it, and I will tell you the answer to the questions you ask.
101 2012-08-01 03:34:25 <gmaxwell> Please realize that this comes across as though you're unwilling to help get the network non-vulnerable to a problem which will probably be immediately exploited when disclosed, but unhappy that it's not being disclosed yet.
102 2012-08-01 03:34:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it seems to matter more urgently to you than it does to me.
103 2012-08-01 03:36:35 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: "How can I even evaluate whether *-dev has fixed the issue properly?" You can go find the vulnerability. Perhaps you'll find a different one in the process and everyone wins.
104 2012-08-01 03:37:08 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: We both know I haven't the time, given my level of expertise, to do that based on the deliberately obfuscated hints and check-ins.
105 2012-08-01 03:37:22 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I can't find anyplace where you complained about the upgrade threshold. (or were told to stop whining wrt this)
106 2012-08-01 03:37:30 da2ce718 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
107 2012-08-01 03:38:37 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: you know the forums are just trolls, right? :p
108 2012-08-01 03:38:41 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: we're almost there, one more push should move it past— thats why I said the next release would do it.
109 2012-08-01 03:39:58 <luke-jr> we're actually at 75% now
110 2012-08-01 03:40:05 <luke-jr> sooner than I expected
111 2012-08-01 03:40:12 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: I just fundamentally disagree with untimely full-disclosure policies. Call me a 1996 bugtraq "consensus" nostalgite..
112 2012-08-01 03:40:34 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: so you prefer to disclose when it would mean the end of Bitcoin?
113 2012-08-01 03:42:05 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: would you be any happier, if it was disclosed to identified security experts (with public credentials/experience)?
114 2012-08-01 03:42:44 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I think you're also confused about levels of disclosures. Bad responsivness means things like vendors taking months to disclose the existance of a bug and/or provide a fix.
115 2012-08-01 03:42:53 <gmaxwell> We've disclosed its existance, provided fixes.
116 2012-08-01 03:43:19 da2ce718 has joined
117 2012-08-01 03:43:25 <gmaxwell> We've just not given you the scriptkiddy kit to go reproduce it yourself. For the vast majority of security announcements no such thing ever exists.
118 2012-08-01 03:44:41 <lordcirth> Does bitcoin-qt have a QR code generator?
119 2012-08-01 03:44:54 <luke-jr> lordcirth: since 0.6, yes
120 2012-08-01 03:44:57 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: I'm pretty sure it wouldn't mean the end of bitcoin. More confirmations would indeed be better, unless independent security experts aren't actually verifying the fix.
121 2012-08-01 03:45:20 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: maybe it does. we don't know the extent of the exploit.
122 2012-08-01 03:45:37 <luke-jr> even Gavin and forrestv probably don't
123 2012-08-01 03:45:48 da2ce718 is now known as da2ce774
124 2012-08-01 03:46:32 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: and as gmaxwell pointed out, you know it exists: you could always use only offline wallets until the detail disclosure
125 2012-08-01 03:46:37 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I'm not interested in script kiddy exploits. However, they do speed the process of verification. All I'm after is un-obfuscated details. Cripes, openssl vulnerabilities have more details in them than the 0.6.3 bug, and that's software that banks rely on.
126 2012-08-01 03:47:08 * luke-jr wonders how OpenSSL handled the last major exploit that could be abused easily for huge damage
127 2012-08-01 03:47:15 <luke-jr> (surely it's happened?)
128 2012-08-01 03:48:02 <midnightmagic> http://www.openssl.org/news/vulnerabilities.html
129 2012-08-01 03:48:24 <midnightmagic> http://www.openssh.org/security.html
130 2012-08-01 03:50:28 <gmaxwell> I can't fathom how you find that to be more detailed than what we've disclosed.
131 2012-08-01 03:50:46 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: I'm having a hard time finding a vuln there that is actually harmful in a major way
132 2012-08-01 03:51:25 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that's true too - they don't seem to have *any* details for even the oldest of these
133 2012-08-01 03:51:37 da2ce774 is now known as da2ce718
134 2012-08-01 03:51:59 <da2ce718> *love shack, baby, love shack*
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136 2012-08-01 03:52:28 <gmaxwell> certantly by word count we disclosed more.
137 2012-08-01 03:54:46 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Combine it with fix check-ins, and the exploit often becomes obvious. They identify the specific vulnerability; competent programmers can reconstruct the bug. If competent programmers are beneath the "must be this tall" threshold then how is that helpful? we're at devs, and blackhats' mercy.
138 2012-08-01 03:55:26 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: For a reasonable definition of "competent." I'm not talking Matt Dillon or Theo deRaadt. They're above competent.
139 2012-08-01 03:56:33 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: these advisories don't tell you the fix checkin either
140 2012-08-01 03:57:20 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: yeah they do.
141 2012-08-01 03:57:45 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: PM
142 2012-08-01 03:58:04 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: where?
143 2012-08-01 03:59:16 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: The CVE has a "fixed in" version and most often it's very clear where the fix was committed.
144 2012-08-01 03:59:42 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: note that the last non-trivial Bitcoin exploit before these (CVE-2010-5139) required a blockchain rewrite/fork to deal with; that was before Bitcoin had any value - we couldn't reasonably do that today
145 2012-08-01 03:59:53 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: our CVEs have fixed in versions too
146 2012-08-01 04:00:16 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2012-2459
147 2012-08-01 04:00:19 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: The fixes are obfuscated.
148 2012-08-01 04:00:44 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: In any case, I can't even argue with you effectively now. You're incorrect on some things you're saying but we can't fairly discuss it without getting closer to the details than I'm willing to go, just for risk that I say something that ought to better be in a coordinated statement.
149 2012-08-01 04:01:18 <luke-jr> ^
150 2012-08-01 04:01:40 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I grok that, that's why I'm not asking for them.
151 2012-08-01 04:01:42 <gmaxwell> (I'm not blaming you for that, it simply is)
152 2012-08-01 04:01:46 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: are they? which of the fixes for past (already disclosed) CVEs are obfuscated?
153 2012-08-01 04:03:15 <luke-jr> hmm, maybe I'm wrong
154 2012-08-01 04:03:56 <luke-jr> the only one that seems like a similar case is CVE-2012-1910; I guess
155 2012-08-01 04:04:06 * luke-jr wonders what that looked like in git
156 2012-08-01 04:04:37 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: And by obfuscated, I simply mean deliberately not fully explained with the intent to ensure that it is not easily reversible from the given information until such time as someone deems it safe to do so.
157 2012-08-01 04:04:54 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: theres nothing wrong with that
158 2012-08-01 04:05:07 <Diablo-D3> if its really easy to trigger, it should be very hard to know about without reading the source
159 2012-08-01 04:05:25 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Seriously, that description also applies just as well to almost every overflow exploit out there... and as well to all the recent openssl ones you pointed to.
160 2012-08-01 04:05:38 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: And when the fix is changing the build-against lib to a multi-threaded one? That could be anywhere in the source.
161 2012-08-01 04:05:56 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: I dont see that being CVE related
162 2012-08-01 04:06:12 <Diablo-D3> how is that a security problem?
163 2012-08-01 04:06:16 <gmaxwell> I think our current level of disclosure is roughly compariable. We want to and should disclose more because we're working with some new kinds of vulnerabilities and there is a lot to be learned.
164 2012-08-01 04:06:35 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well
165 2012-08-01 04:06:41 <Diablo-D3> have a disclosure timer.
166 2012-08-01 04:06:49 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: we do!
167 2012-08-01 04:06:55 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it's scheduled to be disclosed at 77% of the network being secure against it
168 2012-08-01 04:06:58 <gmaxwell> it's based on the number of fixed nodes!
169 2012-08-01 04:07:07 <Diablo-D3> okay
170 2012-08-01 04:07:09 <luke-jr> we're at 75% now
171 2012-08-01 04:07:12 <Diablo-D3> thats about what I was going to suggest
172 2012-08-01 04:07:15 <Diablo-D3> but I would have done it at 90
173 2012-08-01 04:07:35 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: not even BIP 16 has 90% deployment
174 2012-08-01 04:07:48 <luke-jr> heck, not even CVE-2012-1909 does
175 2012-08-01 04:08:00 <gmaxwell> My impression is that things serious enough to justfiy 90% probably shouldn't be done then unless exploited. :(
176 2012-08-01 04:08:45 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: or when we hardfork
177 2012-08-01 04:08:48 <gmaxwell> We also have an oddness that we rightfully consider issues vulnerabilties that basically nothing else would due to the whole distributed algorithim dealing with digital-cash-that-wants-to-be-stolen.
178 2012-08-01 04:09:01 <luke-jr> O.o
179 2012-08-01 04:09:04 <luke-jr> Bitcoin has a will?
180 2012-08-01 04:09:19 <gmaxwell> It sure seems like it wants to be stolen to me! :)
181 2012-08-01 04:09:30 <gmaxwell> It certantly doesn't want to stay still.
182 2012-08-01 04:09:46 Gladamas has joined
183 2012-08-01 04:09:50 <luke-jr> dunno, my paper wallet seems pretty still
184 2012-08-01 04:10:36 <gmaxwell> yea, it's still once you make it not digital!
185 2012-08-01 04:10:51 <gmaxwell> They don't call it dead tree for nothing.
186 2012-08-01 04:11:32 <luke-jr> I thought it was called dead tree because it was made from a … dead tree ._.
187 2012-08-01 04:13:07 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: "integer underflow". "corrected in 1.0.1c". In source, that's tag OpenSSL_1_0_1c:1.1481.2.56.2.103. cvs -d /v2/mirrors/cvs/openssl co openssl ; cd openssl ; cvs  diff -rOpenSSL_1_0_1b -rOpenSSL_1_0_1c|less  likely candidates d1_enc.c and t1_enc.c diffs. There, fix obvious.
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189 2012-08-01 04:17:29 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Specified in fix revision; and in documents like NetBSD pkg-vulnerabilities, with the nature of the bug being described explicitly. Occasionally the vendors believe that describing the bug explicitly is fail. Those fixes I can't verify because it requires duplicating the security researcher's efforts.
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191 2012-08-01 04:20:18 <midnightmagic> I just got tired of grovelling through stack dumps and slowly divining proper alignment of noop slides in 1998.. :/
192 2012-08-01 04:22:55 <gmaxwell> You only consider that a disclosure because you're intimately familar what that class of vulnerability and how it's exploited.
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194 2012-08-01 04:30:24 <midnightmagic> You are suffering from confirmation bias at the moment.
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201 2012-08-01 04:35:01 <midnightmagic> And I hardly think a threaded-safe-lib rebuild is a fix for a new class of exploit.
202 2012-08-01 04:39:13 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: we've fixed the thing, described what we were fixing. Disclosed there was a fix, decribed the nastyness that could happen and where (something openssl doesn't do) and a nearby release tag. Which all sounds pretty compariable to me.
203 2012-08-01 04:43:24 <midnightmagic> How does CVE-2012-2333 not describe the nastiness that could happen?
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205 2012-08-01 04:44:07 <midnightmagic> or -0027?
206 2012-08-01 04:46:03 <gmaxwell> and others don't.
207 2012-08-01 04:46:05 <gmaxwell> "A flaw in the fix to CVE-2011-4108 can be exploited in a denial of service attack. Only DTLS applications are affected."
208 2012-08-01 04:46:17 <midnightmagic> Who cares whether I tell someone with an exploit to publish it on his own schedule? We're *damned* lucky this guy isn't a Luigi Auriemma.
209 2012-08-01 04:47:34 <midnightmagic> CVE-2011-3210: "OpenSSL server code for ephemeral ECDH ciphersuites is not thread-safe, and furthermore can crash if a client violates the protocol by sending handshake messages in incorrect order."
210 2012-08-01 04:48:10 <gmaxwell> I .. don't? Well perhaps I do. I thought my message was good: Do whats right to protect people from harm, whatever that is...  Regardless, my don't fault the people here for not following some timeline that exists in your head.
211 2012-08-01 04:48:52 <midnightmagic> No, because it's the same timeline that exists in YOUR head.
212 2012-08-01 04:49:35 <gmaxwell> er regardless, my complaint with your possition is that you're complaining about what we've established here, in cooperation with the people reporting issues. No one is dragging their feet, the plan is all public, and you've not commented on it until a long delay to complain that we're delaying when we're not. :(
213 2012-08-01 04:50:00 <midnightmagic> I comment every time; and we've had this discussion three times now.
214 2012-08-01 04:50:07 <gmaxwell> Every time what?
215 2012-08-01 04:50:31 <midnightmagic> Every time a new obfuscated patch release comes out that we're all supposed to upgrade to but nobody really knows why.
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217 2012-08-01 04:54:51 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: not a single one of these OpenSSL vulns is anywhere near as serious as Bitcoin bugs could be
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219 2012-08-01 04:56:19 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: That's..  a bit aggrandized.
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221 2012-08-01 04:57:51 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: show me one OpenSSL exploit listed that has potential to have permanent financial loss
222 2012-08-01 04:58:05 <luke-jr> afaict, the worst here are DoS
223 2012-08-01 04:58:33 <gmaxwell> any code execution one does.
224 2012-08-01 04:58:43 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I didn't see any code execution one
225 2012-08-01 04:59:52 <luke-jr> in fact, it looks like they wait until there's 5-10 of these before they even release the fixes
226 2012-08-01 05:00:16 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: CVE-2009-3245. CVE-2007-5135.
227 2012-08-01 05:00:45 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: http://www.openssl.org/news/secadv_20030930.txt (remote root shell)
228 2012-08-01 05:00:59 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: http://www.openssl.org/news/secadv_20020730.txt (remote root shell)
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232 2012-08-01 05:05:43 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: I can't clearly see how those were handled
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235 2012-08-01 05:31:53 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: You just wanted one OpenSSL exploit which has the potential to have permanent financial loss, I quoted 5 in less than 3 minutes of casual searching. If you tell me you won't be convinced they divulged exploitable bugs until I write one based on a CVE, that's a rock I'm not going to lift.
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270 2012-08-01 08:21:07 <OneEyed> blognewb: what would be wrong with getting even? It's better than losing money
271 2012-08-01 08:21:13 <OneEyed> Grmpf, sorry, wrong window
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294 2012-08-01 09:37:35 <yellowhat> what is the preferred way to build bitcoin-qt in windows? any recommondations on IDE?
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299 2012-08-01 09:50:13 <sipa> yellowhat: there are few people building on windows
300 2012-08-01 09:50:44 <sipa> the official wiblndows builds are created on ubuntu
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384 2012-08-01 14:25:39 <jgarzik> 08/01/12 14:03:17 REORGANIZE
385 2012-08-01 14:25:40 <jgarzik> 08/01/12 14:03:17 REORGANIZE: Disconnect 1 blocks; 000000000000056f1bc3..000000000000073335b2
386 2012-08-01 14:25:40 <jgarzik> 08/01/12 14:03:17 REORGANIZE: Connect 2 blocks; 000000000000056f1bc3..000000000000047a70dd
387 2012-08-01 14:25:40 <jgarzik> whee
388 2012-08-01 14:26:11 <sipa> pynode reorganizes?
389 2012-08-01 14:26:31 <jgarzik> it is very close
390 2012-08-01 14:26:38 <jgarzik> but the above is bitcoind
391 2012-08-01 14:26:54 <jgarzik> pynode stores multiple chain forks now.  Just need to add the switching code for the reorg case.
392 2012-08-01 14:27:28 <t7> you wrote a node in python?
393 2012-08-01 14:30:35 D34TH has joined
394 2012-08-01 14:30:55 <jgarzik> t7: yes
395 2012-08-01 14:31:34 <t7> why python?
396 2012-08-01 14:32:00 <sipa> language flamewar go go go
397 2012-08-01 14:32:12 <t7> i guess it has lots of libraries ready to go
398 2012-08-01 14:32:17 pusle has joined
399 2012-08-01 14:32:59 <jgarzik> t7: FYI, vi is far better than emacs
400 2012-08-01 14:34:03 <sipa> oh please
401 2012-08-01 14:34:06 <sipa> just use edlin
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403 2012-08-01 14:35:19 <t7> i can appreciate there are tasks that python (or any dynamically typed language) is good for but this didnt seem like one of them.
404 2012-08-01 14:35:30 <jgarzik> maybe nano should be considered, though
405 2012-08-01 14:35:54 <sipa> xkcd 378 comes to mind
406 2012-08-01 14:38:03 <jgarzik> hehehe
407 2012-08-01 14:38:33 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
408 2012-08-01 14:38:57 <jgarzik> sipa: btw, trying to answer a forum question.  RPC getbalance returns balance for...  how many confirmations?  0? 1? 6?
409 2012-08-01 14:39:02 <jgarzik> I think it's 1-conf
410 2012-08-01 14:39:08 <jgarzik> but I'm buried in wallet.cpp
411 2012-08-01 14:39:26 <sipa> 1 for external transactions, 0 for change or send-to-self ones
412 2012-08-01 14:41:57 <jgarzik> thanks
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415 2012-08-01 15:03:32 <gmaxwell> '0 for change or send-to-self ones' so long as their parents are change/send-to-self or confirmed, all the way up the stack.
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422 2012-08-01 15:20:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen sipa gmaxwell: currently leaning towards the opinion that we should release git HEAD, prior to any "big features" like leveldb at this point
423 2012-08-01 15:21:01 <jgarzik> git HEAD is currently a large collection of small, useful things
424 2012-08-01 15:21:05 <jgarzik> a release would be a useful checkpoint
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429 2012-08-01 15:22:30 <sipa> jgarzik: there are some todo's left in git HEAD, but i'm in favor of releasing before any big further changes now
430 2012-08-01 15:23:17 <jgarzik> sipa: what are the todo's, in your mind?
431 2012-08-01 15:23:39 <jgarzik> we should probably make a pass over gavin's raw tx api
432 2012-08-01 15:23:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell has a good point about locking txouts, I think
433 2012-08-01 15:24:57 <sipa> hmm, i just get that impression from the huge list of pull requests, i suppose
434 2012-08-01 15:25:20 <jgarzik> ok
435 2012-08-01 15:26:07 <sipa> if anything, that list should be reduced (either by closing or merging)... most things are not big changes
436 2012-08-01 15:27:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I was already assuming any futher big things like leveldb would be next version.
437 2012-08-01 15:27:52 <gmaxwell> There are still a lot of small things and bits of polish needed, things like the locking.. or finishing off some of the new peer management stuff (e.g. I'd like to get bluematt's management rpc in to go with your status rpcs)
438 2012-08-01 15:28:07 <gmaxwell> there are also a bunch of more or less dead pulls.
439 2012-08-01 15:32:17 * jgarzik looks at the end of the pullreq list
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453 2012-08-01 16:01:22 <luke-jr> jgarzik: do you really need to do the useless closing of open issues?
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455 2012-08-01 16:03:04 <jgarzik> luke-jr: if you convince one of the other devs to reopen, that's fine -- because then it reflects that the action was against consensus
456 2012-08-01 16:03:52 <luke-jr> #570 had a consensus that it was needed, but that proper handling of stuck transactions was needed first
457 2012-08-01 16:06:06 <luke-jr> jgarzik: there is a generally acknowledged problem of lack of reviewing for pullrequests in general creating a backlog of them; closing them for lack of reviews doesn't help fix it
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460 2012-08-01 16:07:29 <sipa> i do think pullrequests stay open for too long, both ones that should be merged and ones that should be closed
461 2012-08-01 16:07:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: So, the original version of the pull request had behavior that I think you would have also agreed was bad/risky. Maybe you fixed that in your update? But you didn't say what you did— so I don't even know if I read the update. :(
462 2012-08-01 16:08:05 <jgarzik> sipa: yes
463 2012-08-01 16:08:36 <jgarzik> IMNSHO pull requests are for ready-to-go stuff, and stuff that stays open too long should just be closed
464 2012-08-01 16:08:48 <jgarzik> --but--
465 2012-08-01 16:08:58 <jgarzik> we should signal that we encourage people to open or reopen pull requests
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467 2012-08-01 16:09:21 <sipa> can a non-admin reopen a pull request that was closed by an admin, actually?
468 2012-08-01 16:09:24 <sipa> s/admin/dev/
469 2012-08-01 16:09:35 <jgarzik> easy-to-close, easy-to-open is a good policy
470 2012-08-01 16:09:37 <gmaxwell> Right, I think reopening for retries is okay too, so long as there is some backoff.
471 2012-08-01 16:09:49 <jgarzik> sipa: reopen == resubmit, for that reason
472 2012-08-01 16:09:51 <gmaxwell> I think for reopens some should just be new pull requests (that mention theod ones)
473 2012-08-01 16:10:11 <luke-jr> jgarzik: a lot of pull requests that just sit open IS ready-to-go
474 2012-08-01 16:10:22 <jgarzik> reopens will be new pull requests by necessity, because it takes a dev to do it manually
475 2012-08-01 16:10:23 <gmaxwell> in particular, to avoid wading through a bunch of no longer applicable discussion.
476 2012-08-01 16:10:25 <jgarzik> otherwise
477 2012-08-01 16:10:45 * luke-jr finds it rather annoying to have the same functionality/change with multiple pullreq ids
478 2012-08-01 16:12:13 * jgarzik finds one full of acks.
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480 2012-08-01 16:15:57 <gmaxwell> I do wish there were more levels of workflow in this stuff. E.g. to sort out the believe to be pull ready vs we're discussing it.
481 2012-08-01 16:16:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell sipa: coin control go/no-go.  We either need to drop this or carry it to the finish line.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1359
482 2012-08-01 16:17:19 <jgarzik> _presuming_ it is mergeable (it is not ATM), need an ACK/NAK.
483 2012-08-01 16:17:25 <jgarzik> and especially need gavin input I think
484 2012-08-01 16:17:39 <sipa> as i said, i really don't like a single wallet variable that defines coin selection
485 2012-08-01 16:18:00 <sipa> that's very incompatible with multi-client RPC, for example
486 2012-08-01 16:18:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we're going to drop it; because the advanced user functionality is replaced by the raw txn stuff. Though we need to pull in group finding rpc out, and add private key hiding to totally replace it.
487 2012-08-01 16:18:05 <jgarzik> from a project management standpoint, this commit has become a thread :)
488 2012-08-01 16:18:41 <sipa> but the raw txn functionality is not available in the gui
489 2012-08-01 16:18:51 <sipa> it's not the same thing
490 2012-08-01 16:19:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I'm having trouble understanding/parsing "we need to pull in group finding rpc out"
491 2012-08-01 16:19:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's available in the gui console.  The gui interface on coin control is confusing and shouldn't be kept in any case.
492 2012-08-01 16:19:29 <sipa> ok, i only tested the gui part briefly
493 2012-08-01 16:19:34 <jgarzik> yeah, GUI console for RPC was a nifty idea
494 2012-08-01 16:20:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: one of the things that patch does is finds the sets of inputs which have been used in common in transactions (groups).  With that you can accomplish the same goals (though a little harder) using raw transactions.
495 2012-08-01 16:20:09 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: bitcoind features IMO can never replace Bitcoin-Qt features ;P
496 2012-08-01 16:20:22 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: they can when the GUI sucked in any case.
497 2012-08-01 16:20:46 <luke-jr> not saying to pull CC's GUI, just that rawtx doesn't really replace it
498 2012-08-01 16:20:53 <gmaxwell> Also, it's not a "bitcoind feature" as we have the gui console. Though I do generally agree that rpc commands don't replace gui, this hardly had one.
499 2012-08-01 16:21:21 <gmaxwell> I don't mean that the rawtxn stuff doesn't replace a _future_ coin control gui. But I think it replace this one.
500 2012-08-01 16:21:54 <sipa> i think ideally we'd have an expert mode view, where you can see individual coins, instead of the aggregate derived ledger view
501 2012-08-01 16:22:14 <sipa> because coincontrol inherently assumes you are aware of the underlying representation anyway
502 2012-08-01 16:22:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: In particular, I think what you're describing is a expert-transaction-constructor view.. basically a GUI on top of rawtxn.
503 2012-08-01 16:22:49 <sipa> actually, yes
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505 2012-08-01 16:23:04 <sipa> but not only creator
506 2012-08-01 16:23:18 <sipa> also a viewer for the current transactions, which show the actual outputs and inputs
507 2012-08-01 16:23:45 <gmaxwell> A gui for decoderawtransaction / gettransaction verbose.
508 2012-08-01 16:24:40 <jgarzik> OK
509 2012-08-01 16:24:44 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: did we ever bust the tests out of coin control and the other non-cc changes?
510 2012-08-01 16:24:56 <luke-jr> sipa: actually worse, coin control misrepresents the underlying representation and adds to the confusion :P
511 2012-08-01 16:25:10 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: yes, those are merged
512 2012-08-01 16:25:13 <gmaxwell> great.
513 2012-08-01 16:26:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it adds potentially interesting rpc 'listaddressgroupings'
514 2012-08-01 16:26:25 <gmaxwell> 09:15 < gmaxwell> jgarzik: one of the things that patch does is finds the sets of inputs which have been used in common in  transactions (groups).  With that you can accomplish the same goals (though a little harder) using raw  transactions.
515 2012-08-01 16:26:32 <gmaxwell> Thats what I'm talking about.
516 2012-08-01 16:26:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: your ultimatum on gmp_bip is not practical.
517 2012-08-01 16:26:36 <gmaxwell> I think we should pull that part.
518 2012-08-01 16:27:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik: DM_HEX is required to be backward compatible, and DM_OBJ is required to deal with a bug
519 2012-08-01 16:27:28 <jgarzik> GMP backward compatibility is a low priority
520 2012-08-01 16:27:33 <luke-jr> ok
521 2012-08-01 16:27:38 <jgarzik> pick one, write it into the BIP
522 2012-08-01 16:27:54 <jgarzik> we only want one way of doing things
523 2012-08-01 16:27:55 <luke-jr> should I just remove all backward compat from it then?
524 2012-08-01 16:28:20 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I've no objection, but I cannot speak for other devs
525 2012-08-01 16:28:37 <gmaxwell> hm. thats a point. backwards compat isn't actually a terribly big deal as the caller can adapt.
526 2012-08-01 16:28:37 <jgarzik> I think we're too young to accumulate a bunch of backward compat cruft at this point
527 2012-08-01 16:28:46 <jgarzik> _especially_ in RPC land
528 2012-08-01 16:28:56 * jgarzik has been actively removing deprecated RPC stuff in the past year
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530 2012-08-01 16:30:22 <sipa> at this point, i don't mind GMP doing a backward-incompatible change
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532 2012-08-01 16:30:58 <gmaxwell> hmph. It's quite a pain to use listunspent to get unspent txn connected to particular addresses.
533 2012-08-01 16:31:25 <sipa> actually, if we're breaking it anyway, can we rename it to getblocktemplate?
534 2012-08-01 16:31:35 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK
535 2012-08-01 16:31:42 <jgarzik> ^2
536 2012-08-01 16:32:06 <sipa> that is also easier for callers that have to support both
537 2012-08-01 16:32:12 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
538 2012-08-01 16:32:14 <jgarzik> yes
539 2012-08-01 16:32:15 <gmaxwell> very very slightly.
540 2012-08-01 16:32:28 <gmaxwell> But sure, if it's broken, renaming it is fine.
541 2012-08-01 16:32:35 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: do you hate that name?
542 2012-08-01 16:32:48 <luke-jr> I'd prefer something shorter, but I don't really care that much.
543 2012-08-01 16:33:15 <gmaxwell> gBlkTmpl_impl
544 2012-08-01 16:33:19 <gmaxwell> ;)
545 2012-08-01 16:33:38 <luke-jr> plzno
546 2012-08-01 16:34:07 <sipa> fortran style naming conventions!
547 2012-08-01 16:34:13 <gmaxwell> I wonder if there is a reason that gavin didn't make listunspent take any other filter arguments than confirmations.
548 2012-08-01 16:34:13 <luke-jr> getblocktemplate it is then? :P
549 2012-08-01 16:34:28 <gmaxwell> The obvious missing filters are address sets and value.
550 2012-08-01 16:34:43 <luke-jr> forrestv: that OK with you?
551 2012-08-01 16:35:23 <sipa> i don't mind a shorter name if there is a suggestion
552 2012-08-01 16:35:59 <luke-jr> getblocktmpl? :P
553 2012-08-01 16:36:59 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
554 2012-08-01 16:37:01 <luke-jr> jgarzik: any objection if I remove DM_HASH (at least for now) too?
555 2012-08-01 16:39:25 <jgarzik> luke-jr: make it as simple as possible... go for it
556 2012-08-01 16:39:49 <sipa> the obj decomposition offers everything, right?
557 2012-08-01 16:40:51 <jgarzik> it should, though IIRC gmaxwell was grumping about some issue related to separate RPC decomp steps?
558 2012-08-01 16:40:56 tusle is now known as pusle
559 2012-08-01 16:41:12 <sipa> ah, right
560 2012-08-01 16:45:07 osmosis has joined
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562 2012-08-01 16:48:22 <luke-jr> sipa: yes
563 2012-08-01 16:48:33 <luke-jr> getblocktemplate or getblocktmpl or ?
564 2012-08-01 16:48:46 <luke-jr> and I'm *replacing* getmemorypool, right?
565 2012-08-01 16:50:03 * luke-jr pokes jgarzik/sipa
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569 2012-08-01 16:54:01 <jgarzik> luke-jr: getblocktemplate
570 2012-08-01 16:54:16 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes, delete getmemorypool, add getblocktemplate IMO
571 2012-08-01 16:57:47 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened pull request 1642 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1642>
572 2012-08-01 16:58:39 bitllc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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574 2012-08-01 16:59:24 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: ty
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576 2012-08-01 16:59:58 <helo> it would be pretty handy if the client could show how many peers a transaction has been sent to...
577 2012-08-01 17:00:13 <luke-jr> helo: it does O.o
578 2012-08-01 17:00:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: See my comments there: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1642
579 2012-08-01 17:00:50 <helo> oh, well carry on ;)
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582 2012-08-01 17:03:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: perhaps it's enough to let listunspent take a list of addresses to filter by?
583 2012-08-01 17:04:00 spitteler has joined
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585 2012-08-01 17:04:27 <spitteler> wondering if there is an easier way to get the sender address of a known transactionid (rather then parsing from http://blockchain.info/tx-index/14187265/28a1976b68b6ab4b5bbe723ab7289d4352da9afdedee022b6b47348a57f3f181)
586 2012-08-01 17:04:29 prahanormal has joined
587 2012-08-01 17:04:44 bitllc has joined
588 2012-08-01 17:05:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: maybe. I don't personally care about Coin Control stuff <.<
589 2012-08-01 17:05:57 <luke-jr> spitteler: Bitcoin doesn't have sender addresses
590 2012-08-01 17:07:20 <gmaxwell> spitteler: To elaborate on Luke's comment. There is no from address in bitcoin, you can get the prior transaction and look at its to address and _hope_ its the same party, and hope you can even parse the to address.. but you can't be at all sure its the same party.
591 2012-08-01 17:08:42 bitllc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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593 2012-08-01 17:09:12 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sipa: back to BIP22 method name again - maybe "blocktemplate" is more appropriate since we're overloading the submission on it?
594 2012-08-01 17:09:40 <gmaxwell> it's shorter!
595 2012-08-01 17:10:05 sytse has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
596 2012-08-01 17:10:46 <spitteler> how then does something as simple as satoshi dice send back winning without entering an address to send it to,  they get the sender address somehow
597 2012-08-01 17:10:52 WannaBeGeekster has quit (Quit: Leaving)
598 2012-08-01 17:11:14 <luke-jr> spitteler: SatoshiDice doesn't care if it works or not - it's just a DoS attack on Bitcoin after all
599 2012-08-01 17:12:01 <spitteler> ok, cause i am trying to add a refund function that will refund a customer if they over/under send coins to the address i give them for a transaction
600 2012-08-01 17:12:37 <spitteler> i guess there is no way to do that without the customer also specifying a return address?
601 2012-08-01 17:12:42 <luke-jr> spitteler: correct
602 2012-08-01 17:14:25 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: was there ever any decision on RPC locking?  pushdown or table-driven?
603 2012-08-01 17:14:41 <jgarzik> I vaguely lean towards table-driven
604 2012-08-01 17:15:25 <sipa> eventually it will have to be pushdown anyway
605 2012-08-01 17:15:39 <luke-jr> table-driven seems safer
606 2012-08-01 17:15:43 sytse has joined
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608 2012-08-01 17:24:18 <jgarzik> OK, pull request pass done.  Babysitting time.
609 2012-08-01 17:24:54 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sipa: back to BIP22 method name again - maybe "blocktemplate" is more appropriate since we're overloading the submission on it?
610 2012-08-01 17:25:14 <luke-jr> ugh, fastblockrelay needs rebasing already? XD
611 2012-08-01 17:27:37 <jgarzik> luke-jr: fine
612 2012-08-01 17:29:06 <jgarzik> luke-jr: but if gavin demands a rename to 'getblocktemplate' don't blame me <grin>
613 2012-08-01 17:29:27 <luke-jr> meh, how about I leave the current draft for review now, and decide a final name when Gavin connects? :P
614 2012-08-01 17:30:03 knotwork_ has joined
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616 2012-08-01 17:32:53 <luke-jr> (current draft = revised with code changes)
617 2012-08-01 17:36:48 rdponticelli has joined
618 2012-08-01 17:39:40 <gmaxwell> I think its fantastic news that the biggest problem is now the name.
619 2012-08-01 17:40:50 Turingi has joined
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621 2012-08-01 17:46:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: :D
622 2012-08-01 17:50:34 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
623 2012-08-01 17:50:49 <sipa> luke-jr: no problem with blocktemplate
624 2012-08-01 17:51:06 <luke-jr> sipa: what do you think of "blockmining"? <.<
625 2012-08-01 17:55:49 <gmaxwell> I like blocktemplate better.
626 2012-08-01 17:56:05 <gmaxwell> then again, blockmining may do better to promote the miner oriented uses of this.
627 2012-08-01 17:56:19 <gmaxwell> Foo Pool, now with extra secure BlockMining™ protocol.
628 2012-08-01 17:58:54 <luke-jr> we seem to be doing some heavy drive-by chatting :P
629 2012-08-01 17:59:54 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: just pushed doc/release-notes.txt, listed user visible stuff in upcoming release.  a glance would be appreciated.
630 2012-08-01 18:00:00 <jgarzik> mainly to spot missing stuff
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633 2012-08-01 18:05:54 <luke-jr> I hate to close opti_getblkhash, but I'm no longer overly interested (I'm done using it) and jgarzik's index-by-height seems the best approach but complicated to get right
634 2012-08-01 18:06:22 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
635 2012-08-01 18:06:56 <luke-jr> jgarzik: you said pynode was more or less a port of the C++ code; is it possible its index could be ported back?
636 2012-08-01 18:07:06 <gmaxwell> index by height seems like more work than its worth.
637 2012-08-01 18:07:22 <gmaxwell> the linear scan is really the important to make fast case.
638 2012-08-01 18:07:31 <gmaxwell> And your patch does that except for the being broken part.
639 2012-08-01 18:08:45 <luke-jr> so just move the func to main and have block changes void the cache?
640 2012-08-01 18:09:18 <gmaxwell> Sounds fine to me.
641 2012-08-01 18:10:04 d4de has joined
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644 2012-08-01 18:10:39 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yeah, to be clear, my comment was in the category of "$this would be easy if..." rather than a suggested direction.  I agree w/ gmaxwell that maintaining index-by-height may be more costly in terms of permanent RAM (or a new db), versus the cost of the loop you already did
645 2012-08-01 18:11:14 <jgarzik> pynode uses it in several places.  bitcoind would only have one user, so costs > benefits there
646 2012-08-01 18:11:37 <luke-jr> safe to assume we only need to void the cache on SetBestChain?
647 2012-08-01 18:19:47 <jgarzik> What is the preference for indicating "mempool" / extended "getdata" behavior?
648 2012-08-01 18:19:59 <jgarzik> The commit bumps the protocol version to 60002, but I actually prefer an nServices bit.
649 2012-08-01 18:20:25 <jgarzik> However...  I am a bit reluctant to add the NODE_SPV_SERVER bit right now, as bloom filter is not yet in
650 2012-08-01 18:20:39 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
651 2012-08-01 18:21:52 <jgarzik> I suppose NODE_SPV_SERVER could mean different things as protocol_version continues to increase...  add it now, then NODE_SPV_SERVER && nVersion > X indicates bloom filter too
652 2012-08-01 18:22:00 <jgarzik> but that seems messy
653 2012-08-01 18:22:43 tower has joined
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655 2012-08-01 18:27:39 <luke-jr> jgarzik: maybe just add it without any version/flag for now, and add a service flag when it's more "complete"?
656 2012-08-01 18:28:56 <jgarzik> yeah, definitely a bit reluctant to add NODE_SPV_SERVER right now
657 2012-08-01 18:28:58 <gmaxwell> ^ I thought that too.
658 2012-08-01 18:29:10 <jgarzik> there is value in advertising it -somehow- though, I think
659 2012-08-01 18:29:23 <jgarzik> thus, 60002
660 2012-08-01 18:29:23 <gmaxwell> also, I'm also not super keen on adding and announcing new message types without a client to poll them.
661 2012-08-01 18:30:00 <gmaxwell> (or even really, pulling the patch without a way to test them)
662 2012-08-01 18:30:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: <shrug> it was tested with a simple pynode script.  I could commit that to pynode/contrib or somesuch.
663 2012-08-01 18:30:20 <luke-jr> jgarzik: why does it need to be advertised?
664 2012-08-01 18:30:46 <jgarzik> luke-jr: how else to know if it may be used?
665 2012-08-01 18:30:58 <luke-jr> try it and see
666 2012-08-01 18:30:59 <luke-jr> :p
667 2012-08-01 18:31:05 terry has joined
668 2012-08-01 18:31:16 <jgarzik> luke-jr: P2P commands don't have 1:1 request:response ratio
669 2012-08-01 18:31:29 <luke-jr> this one does
670 2012-08-01 18:31:40 <jgarzik> nope
671 2012-08-01 18:31:58 <luke-jr> oh, if the mempool is empty..
672 2012-08-01 18:33:38 <luke-jr> meh, if we can do it for ping, we can do it for this XD
673 2012-08-01 18:34:02 <jgarzik> yet another reason why I wanted a "getfeatures" or "listcommands" command
674 2012-08-01 18:34:41 <jgarzik> but oh well.. we only advertise version and service bits
675 2012-08-01 18:36:10 Maged has quit (Disconnected by services)
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678 2012-08-01 18:37:58 <luke-jr> I think my client still has your listcommands in it :P
679 2012-08-01 18:39:55 <jgarzik> I think listcommands is great for minor, optional features
680 2012-08-01 18:40:35 nsh has joined
681 2012-08-01 18:41:19 * gmaxwell grows old waiting for bitcoind to start in valgrind...
682 2012-08-01 18:42:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: just imagine how long it would take to run a human in valgrind…
683 2012-08-01 18:42:51 <midnightmagic> ground-up humans
684 2012-08-01 18:43:02 * ersi grows old waiting for bitcoin-qt to start
685 2012-08-01 18:43:13 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: If we identify a couple pulls which _will_ get merged for 0.7 if they get some more testing, and which _won't_ get merged... do you think you could do a set of builds with them and drive up some actual testing (e.g. from some of the audience that runs next-test)?
686 2012-08-01 18:43:17 * jgarzik grows old waiting for pyminer to mine a block on mainnet
687 2012-08-01 18:43:26 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: in particular I'm thinking about the transaction/accounting time.
688 2012-08-01 18:43:27 <jgarzik> 50 Khps per core, baby
689 2012-08-01 18:43:30 <gmaxwell> But there may be otherones.
690 2012-08-01 18:43:32 * midnightmagic grows old watching everyone else grow old
691 2012-08-01 18:44:36 <jgarzik> I wonder if pyminer has ever mined any blocks other than the couple I did on testnet, to prove it worked ;)
692 2012-08-01 18:44:38 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
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694 2012-08-01 18:50:39 <Joric> jgarzik, back in june 2012 i tried to use google app engine miner written entirely on java - ~2 shares a day on their cpu limits for the free hosting
695 2012-08-01 18:54:41 <Joric> *2011 sorry though it was ~ the same difficulty :)
696 2012-08-01 18:54:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: certainly
697 2012-08-01 18:55:17 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: my 'next' branch already aims to be that, based on puller ACKs - but explicit would help get it just right
698 2012-08-01 18:56:37 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Right, we have things right now with some levels of acks which probably aren't going to go into 0.7. Perhaps I can go over what you have in next and see if there are things I think are dead/deferred which should come out and then we could try to get some push there.
699 2012-08-01 18:59:16 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 1 sec
700 2012-08-01 19:00:51 Lyspooner has joined
701 2012-08-01 19:02:06 <Lyspooner> hello friends. was there any further discussion from the devs about casascius "automatic mixing" idea presented on the forums here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94155.0 ?
702 2012-08-01 19:03:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: 936/gmp_bip, 1431/opt_ipv6, 1514/linker args, 1526/heightincoinbase, 1549/addnoderpc, 1572/optionsmodel_cleanup
703 2012-08-01 19:03:43 <luke-jr> haven't updated since 1595 or so tho
704 2012-08-01 19:04:13 <gmaxwell> Lyspooner: that is something that can be implemented purely externally to bitcoin now, and it should be at least first.
705 2012-08-01 19:04:22 <gmaxwell> Lyspooner: the timed thing is silly though. ::shrugs::
706 2012-08-01 19:05:14 <gmaxwell> Lyspooner: related, I heard that someone is coming out with a mixing service based on multi input transactions that after 0.7 is released. I'd expect it to be more secure due to big anonymity groups. (and also not bloaty)
707 2012-08-01 19:05:40 <Lyspooner> cool, thanks. any links?
708 2012-08-01 19:06:15 <gmaxwell> Lyspooner: Alas, no. I was just asked to review some stuff.
709 2012-08-01 19:06:27 <gmaxwell> (and I did a bunch of transactions testing the transaction behavior in testnet3)
710 2012-08-01 19:07:13 <gmaxwell> we have a spiffy 'bug' (feature?) with those transactions:
711 2012-08-01 19:08:02 <D34TH> there are no bugs
712 2012-08-01 19:08:05 <gmaxwell>         "amount" : -50.00000000,
713 2012-08-01 19:08:05 <gmaxwell>         "fee" : 0.00000000,
714 2012-08-01 19:08:10 <D34TH> ony undocumented features
715 2012-08-01 19:08:13 <gmaxwell> ..        "amount" : -100.00000000,
716 2012-08-01 19:08:13 <gmaxwell>         "fee" : 50.00000000,
717 2012-08-01 19:08:55 <gmaxwell> (fee is normally negative...but here it's postive because it reflects the foreign input!)
718 2012-08-01 19:17:56 minimoose has joined
719 2012-08-01 19:18:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: include pulls that need rebasing in your list, and I'll pester them :P
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722 2012-08-01 19:29:07 <Ukto> gmaxwell: I'll accept that kind of fee :P
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729 2012-08-01 19:55:45 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: dooglus opened issue 1643 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1643>
730 2012-08-01 19:59:03 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: updated next list: 936 gmp_bip, 1431 opt_ipv6, 1526 gavin/heightincoinbase, 1549 matt/addnoderpc, 1355 gmp_longpoll, 1393 refactor_times
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748 2012-08-01 20:31:06 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1644 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1644>
749 2012-08-01 20:31:32 <Diapolo> hey guys, I created a pull with current translations, I hope I didn't miss the build phase ;)?
750 2012-08-01 20:32:12 <sipa> there have not even been release candidates
751 2012-08-01 20:32:25 phungus has joined
752 2012-08-01 20:32:50 <Diapolo> Well I had the impression it was like a rush today ^^. Just wanted to be sure.
753 2012-08-01 20:33:22 <luke-jr> Diapolo: probably getting close
754 2012-08-01 20:34:07 <luke-jr> I'll probably do a next (note: not next-test) build to help get some final testing of some predecided "wanted in 0.7" pulls
755 2012-08-01 20:34:09 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: no, no rush, but we'll probably close to new things somewhat soon.
756 2012-08-01 20:34:31 <luke-jr> as soon as gmaxwell gets me the list, and gavin decides the new name for BIP22
757 2012-08-01 20:34:43 <sipa> translations can be updated right up to the release, imho
758 2012-08-01 20:34:50 <luke-jr> ^ that too
759 2012-08-01 20:35:52 <luke-jr> in fact, probably ideal to wait until immediately before the first RC, to even start merging translations in
760 2012-08-01 20:36:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: can you rebase unlocked-rpc plz?
761 2012-08-01 20:36:51 <Diapolo> luke-jr: the client needs fresh translations, I'll update them over the whole RC phase, but would like to have a good looking translated client for even the first RC :)
762 2012-08-01 20:37:05 <luke-jr> Diapolo: hence "right before"
763 2012-08-01 20:37:12 <luke-jr> immediately*
764 2012-08-01 20:37:54 <Diapolo> now I got it :-P well I'm off for holidays soon, so take it or let it open until RC phase begins :)
765 2012-08-01 20:39:07 <Diapolo> While we are at "wanted in 0.7" any dev here that has Windows and can give my DEP patch a try? Would be sad if that doesn't make it because no one is able to test ^^. It's a pretty simple thing.
766 2012-08-01 20:40:35 <sipa> does it work for you?
767 2012-08-01 20:40:45 <Diapolo> sure
768 2012-08-01 20:40:52 <Diapolo> as seen on the screenshot
769 2012-08-01 20:41:01 <sipa> must have missed that
770 2012-08-01 20:41:31 <sipa> have you tested that it actually prevents executing code on the stack?
771 2012-08-01 20:42:05 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
772 2012-08-01 20:42:06 <wumpus> Diapolo: the name of the pull request is wrong btw :p it also changes the DEP bit for bitcoind, not just bitcoin-qt
773 2012-08-01 20:42:19 sytse has joined
774 2012-08-01 20:42:23 <sipa> as it should, i guess
775 2012-08-01 20:42:26 <wumpus> yes
776 2012-08-01 20:42:35 <Diapolo> wumpus: if you want me, I can update :-P
777 2012-08-01 20:43:20 <wumpus> not really important, but just to be sure tat you realized 
778 2012-08-01 20:43:22 <Diapolo> sipa: no I did not provoke a DEP crash, but I'm sure that should be not too hard to trigger
779 2012-08-01 20:44:02 <wumpus> just malloc some memory and jump to it :)
780 2012-08-01 20:44:02 <Diapolo> wumpus: as I never use bitcoind ^^ well thanks
781 2012-08-01 20:44:16 <sipa> i suppose you can write a function with an infinite loop, at run time copy it to a stack-allocated char array, cast the pointer to a function ptr, and call it
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784 2012-08-01 20:44:44 <MMavipc> what's the length of a compressed DER private key supposed to be?
785 2012-08-01 20:44:48 <sipa> wumpus: well, i expect that to crash either way
786 2012-08-01 20:44:52 _W_ has joined
787 2012-08-01 20:44:57 <sipa> MMavipc: 33 bytes
788 2012-08-01 20:45:04 <wumpus> yes, but the type of crash should tell you something
789 2012-08-01 20:45:06 <sipa> wait
790 2012-08-01 20:45:25 <sipa> MMavipc: private keys are not DER encoded
791 2012-08-01 20:45:37 <sipa> MMavipc: and a compressed private key does not exist
792 2012-08-01 20:45:40 <MMavipc> sipa: yes they are, open up your wallet.dat with a hex editor
793 2012-08-01 20:45:41 <makomk> sipa: depending on calling convention, I guess you could just write a single RET instruction to a buffer and call it.
794 2012-08-01 20:46:02 _W_ has quit (Excess Flood)
795 2012-08-01 20:46:10 <sipa> MMavipc: ah, yes, the old encoding for private keys
796 2012-08-01 20:46:11 _W_ has joined
797 2012-08-01 20:46:32 <sipa> MMavipc: iirc, the normal length (279 bytes?) minus 32
798 2012-08-01 20:46:43 <MMavipc> sipa: what's the new?
799 2012-08-01 20:47:16 <sipa> MMavipc: only storing the secret parameter, instead of the entire openssl eckey structure
800 2012-08-01 20:47:28 <MMavipc> sipa: I'm reading 271 bytes out of the berkeley db, normally its 282(3 extra bytes at beginning)
801 2012-08-01 20:47:50 <MMavipc> this is with a 0.6.3 wallet
802 2012-08-01 20:47:57 <sipa> MMavipc: the secret parameter is 32 bytes
803 2012-08-01 20:48:16 <sipa> but on-disk that is only used in encrypted wallets
804 2012-08-01 20:48:22 <MMavipc> sipa: I know this, but where in that 271 bytes are those 32 bytes
805 2012-08-01 20:49:09 <sipa> MMavipc: i'm sure you can find it by comparing a few private key structures
806 2012-08-01 20:49:20 <wumpus> Diapolo: ret is 0xc3 on x86
807 2012-08-01 20:49:28 <sipa> MMavipc: the only varying thing is the pubkey and the secret parameter, iirc
808 2012-08-01 20:51:53 <MMavipc> sipa: do you know of a less-hacky way to do this, rather than just extracting it?
809 2012-08-01 20:52:05 <Diapolo> wumpus: I was looking for an easy way to trigger this without asm
810 2012-08-01 20:52:50 <wumpus> Diapolo: it's only one byte... just put it in a buffer, cast it to a void() function, and call it 
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813 2012-08-01 20:56:28 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 1645 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1645>
814 2012-08-01 20:57:37 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
815 2012-08-01 20:59:08 <Diapolo> wumpus: got it ^^
816 2012-08-01 20:59:18 <wumpus> great 
817 2012-08-01 20:59:38 <Diapolo> wumpus:     typedef void (*MyPtr)();
818 2012-08-01 20:59:38 <Diapolo>      MyPtr p = (MyPtr)1234;     p();
819 2012-08-01 20:59:58 <Diapolo> that triggers it and aborts the application
820 2012-08-01 21:01:19 <wumpus> that will always crash, as address 1234 is probably not mapped... more like http://pastebin.com/11xix2z5
821 2012-08-01 21:02:27 <MMavipc> What's the byte you use instead of 0x80 when converting a secret that corresponds to a compressed public key to wallet import format?
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823 2012-08-01 21:02:29 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
824 2012-08-01 21:02:42 <Diapolo> will try, just a sec
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827 2012-08-01 21:05:02 <Diapolo> wumpus: same result and still aborts bitcoin-qt :)
828 2012-08-01 21:05:03 <Diapolo> Problemereignisname:	BEX
829 2012-08-01 21:05:03 <Diapolo> Anwendungsname:	bitcoin-qt.exe
830 2012-08-01 21:05:03 <Diapolo> Anwendungszeitstempel:	5019987a
831 2012-08-01 21:05:03 <Diapolo> Fehlermodulname:	StackHash_0a9e
832 2012-08-01 21:05:22 <wumpus> can you try without DEP to verify?
833 2012-08-01 21:05:59 <Diapolo> I'll have to reboot then, I'll be back soon.
834 2012-08-01 21:06:02 <wumpus> ok
835 2012-08-01 21:06:06 Diapolo has left ()
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837 2012-08-01 21:09:47 <sipa> MMavipc: version byte is 0x80 in either case, but for keys that correspond to a compressed pubkey, a 0x01 is added
838 2012-08-01 21:12:18 Diapolo has joined
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840 2012-08-01 21:15:54 <Diapolo> LOL I have a hard time disabling DEP ^^ I had it activated in a linker for another thing I was testing ... need to build once more
841 2012-08-01 21:16:03 mb300sd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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844 2012-08-01 21:18:24 <Diapolo> wumpus: alright without DEP it leads to an exception in bitcoin in boost::interprocess, not enough memory.
845 2012-08-01 21:18:39 <wumpus> ok, that's good
846 2012-08-01 21:18:43 balrog has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
847 2012-08-01 21:20:28 <Diapolo> DEP stops the app before any harm can be done with executing code in a data-only memory area
848 2012-08-01 21:20:49 <sipa> yes, that behavior is expected
849 2012-08-01 21:22:50 <Diapolo> and this is what the patch enables for Win ;)
850 2012-08-01 21:23:07 jurov is now known as jurov|away
851 2012-08-01 21:24:05 <Diapolo> sipa: any idea for this issue-ticket? didn't happen again the last days: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1625
852 2012-08-01 21:25:41 balrog has joined
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854 2012-08-01 21:29:35 <sipa> Diapolo: seems to me like there is just some faulty node you're connecting to when in ipv6 mode
855 2012-08-01 21:29:57 <sipa> that's sending inv messages of unknown type
856 2012-08-01 21:30:17 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
857 2012-08-01 21:30:48 <Diapolo> is this "normal"? it only happend via IPv6 ... just wanted to mention, as it triggers an exception
858 2012-08-01 21:31:15 <Diapolo> sorry didn't read the first line of your reply
859 2012-08-01 21:31:21 yellowhat has joined
860 2012-08-01 21:31:33 <Diapolo> shouldn't such a node get banned?
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870 2012-08-01 21:38:48 <sipa> i suppose1
871 2012-08-01 21:42:20 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1646 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1646>
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903 2012-08-01 22:52:15 <Bennystacks> hello
904 2012-08-01 22:52:39 Bennystacks has left ()
905 2012-08-01 22:52:44 <sipa> hi there
906 2012-08-01 22:53:05 <luke-jr> lol
907 2012-08-01 22:53:30 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 1647 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1647>
908 2012-08-01 22:53:32 Benniestacks has joined
909 2012-08-01 22:54:32 <Benniestacks> Hello does anyone know how to install bitcoind on centos?
910 2012-08-01 22:54:54 <luke-jr> oh, you're in for some fun
911 2012-08-01 22:54:55 mmoya has joined
912 2012-08-01 22:55:07 <Benniestacks> haha I bet
913 2012-08-01 22:55:08 <Benniestacks> All
914 2012-08-01 22:55:12 <sipa> jgarzik knows
915 2012-08-01 22:55:23 <luke-jr> Benniestacks: if you just want to run it, grab the static binary from SF
916 2012-08-01 22:55:33 <luke-jr> to compile, you'll need to rebuild your OpenSSL
917 2012-08-01 22:55:34 <Benniestacks> All I see  is installs for ubuntu but my server is centos
918 2012-08-01 22:55:36 <sipa> beware that it requires compiling your owm non-neutered openssl
919 2012-08-01 22:55:48 <sipa> or installing a prebuilt version
920 2012-08-01 22:56:01 <luke-jr> Benniestacks: Bitcoin.org links to Linux (tgz, 32/64-bit) ~11MB
921 2012-08-01 22:56:04 <luke-jr> that  might run
922 2012-08-01 22:56:06 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
923 2012-08-01 22:56:46 * luke-jr wonders if he could get away with alphabetizing the OS list on bitcoin.org <.<
924 2012-08-01 22:56:47 <Benniestacks> thanks, I'll check that out
925 2012-08-01 22:56:59 <luke-jr> Linux, Mac OS X, Ubuntu, Windows
926 2012-08-01 22:57:31 Joric has quit ()
927 2012-08-01 22:58:03 <Benniestacks> What I'm trying to do is getting the bitcoind to work with php,html etc... I have it setup on my local ubuntu but would hate to shell out more money to get a ubuntu server.
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934 2012-08-01 23:11:03 <luke-jr> Benniestacks: why would an Ubuntu server cost more? O.o
935 2012-08-01 23:11:53 <sipa> if he does not want to move his services off his existing centos vps, it is the price of two vps's vs. one
936 2012-08-01 23:12:02 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
937 2012-08-01 23:13:52 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: luke-jr opened pull request 1648 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1648>
938 2012-08-01 23:17:02 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
939 2012-08-01 23:21:10 <luke-jr> re fastblockrelay, I'd like to try to improve it a bit - anyone want to discuss it?
940 2012-08-01 23:21:35 _W_ has quit (Excess Flood)
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942 2012-08-01 23:22:04 <luke-jr> my thought is, when we start receiving a block, after the header has arrived, check it immediately (before the txns are done downloading), and if it's good, start relaying to all nodes with height-1 in parallel to our own download
943 2012-08-01 23:27:02 Marf has joined
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946 2012-08-01 23:33:26 <sipa> i fear 0.7 will not be for anytime too soon
947 2012-08-01 23:33:41 <sipa> as gavin is on vacation for a few weeks
948 2012-08-01 23:33:53 [\\\] has joined
949 2012-08-01 23:34:45 <gmaxwell> Thats still fine, we still need to move in the direction of closing things up for it. I think it's clear that nothing more _big_ will go in now (otherwise we'll never get it out)
950 2012-08-01 23:35:24 minimoose has joined
951 2012-08-01 23:37:40 <sipa> indeed
952 2012-08-01 23:38:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: finally continuing reading HPMoR... damn he's ingeniois
953 2012-08-01 23:38:47 <sipa> ingenious
954 2012-08-01 23:41:20 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: IMO, until/unless you significantly rewrite the address grouping RPC, should keep coderrr's name in the Author :P
955 2012-08-01 23:41:32 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
956 2012-08-01 23:41:34 <bonks> hey guys, why is syncing so slow even if I connect= to my fast servers?
957 2012-08-01 23:41:54 <luke-jr> bonks: because as always, bandwidth is not the bottleneck
958 2012-08-01 23:42:19 <bonks> luke-jr: what is the bottleneck?
959 2012-08-01 23:42:26 <sipa> disk i/o
960 2012-08-01 23:42:29 <luke-jr> bonks: CPU time and/or disk IO
961 2012-08-01 23:42:36 <luke-jr> depending on your disk usually
962 2012-08-01 23:42:52 <sipa> it's only cpu bound on ramdrives, really
963 2012-08-01 23:43:04 <luke-jr> ☺
964 2012-08-01 23:43:18 <sipa> maybe on ssd's as well
965 2012-08-01 23:43:32 <bonks> i see
966 2012-08-01 23:43:54 <bonks> what the heck is it doing with the io? simply writing to it shouldn't be slower than the network
967 2012-08-01 23:43:58 <luke-jr> sipa: or Pentium 4s with disk encryption <.<
968 2012-08-01 23:44:03 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: darn, I thought I'd rewritten that before pushing.
969 2012-08-01 23:44:08 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: and zfs. :)
970 2012-08-01 23:44:26 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: -c is handy
971 2012-08-01 23:44:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: in any case, yes, I'll fix..  I just wanted to get it back in the queue.
972 2012-08-01 23:44:46 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: thanks for paying attention.
973 2012-08-01 23:44:52 <luke-jr> I wasn't aware it was out of the queue :P
974 2012-08-01 23:45:05 <luke-jr> ping me when you do, so I can rebase coinbaser on top again
975 2012-08-01 23:45:26 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Well jeff closed coinbaser as discussed.
976 2012-08-01 23:45:36 <sipa> bonks: bdb does many synchronous writes to disk, as it continuously tries to guarantee consistency
977 2012-08-01 23:45:49 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I still need to figure how I'll I'll deal with the impeadance mismatch between it and listunspent.
978 2012-08-01 23:45:50 <sipa> bonks: it writes many times the size of the database itself
979 2012-08-01 23:46:08 <sipa> bonks: the blocks are not the problem, they are written only once
980 2012-08-01 23:46:28 <sipa> (though reread many times)
981 2012-08-01 23:47:06 <bonks> interesting, is there a wiki on this?
982 2012-08-01 23:47:14 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: coinbaser? :P
983 2012-08-01 23:47:15 <bonks> i'd like to learn more why the complexity
984 2012-08-01 23:47:59 <sipa> bonks: we have a 2+ gigabyte of data that is accessed and updated the whole time during block validation
985 2012-08-01 23:48:22 <sipa> that's very unlike just 2+ gigabyte of data written once
986 2012-08-01 23:48:27 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: haha For some reason I can't remember 'coin control' so apparently every c.* feature fits the pattern in my mind.
987 2012-08-01 23:48:38 sytse has joined
988 2012-08-01 23:49:24 <bonks> sipa: alright, good to know! thanks
989 2012-08-01 23:49:35 <gmaxwell> bonks: Bitcoin isn't just downloading the data, every node autonomously enforces all of the systems rules... so as the blocks come in they're all checked for conformance, all transactions checked against duplication, etc.
990 2012-08-01 23:50:03 <sipa> (though we're working on improving performance, but you won't see any of that before 0.8 most likely)
991 2012-08-01 23:50:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: well we've improved the performance in almost every release for the last year.. just in small steps.
992 2012-08-01 23:51:04 <gmaxwell> Bigger ones coming though.
993 2012-08-01 23:51:13 one_zero has joined
994 2012-08-01 23:52:13 <sipa> right, running doing IBD with bitcoin 0.4 now would be a hell