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7 2012-08-02 00:22:46 <jgarzik> ChainDb: height 191872, block 0000000000000107e3f58f9db25f78d44662555db4b6480ad2ad008181415863
8 2012-08-02 00:22:46 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 3, neverseen 1, poolsz 745
9 2012-08-02 00:23:02 <jgarzik> 3 txs (including coinbase) is all you could muster, you pathetic miner?
10 2012-08-02 00:23:12 <jgarzik> when the mempool size is approaching 750?
11 2012-08-02 00:23:35 * luke-jr hides
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24 2012-08-02 01:05:10 <BlueMatt> oh, hey, scripts dont support negative numbers
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29 2012-08-02 01:14:41 <BlueMatt> oops, thats a 4 not a 3, damn openssl
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33 2012-08-02 01:24:18 <sipa> ?
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37 2012-08-02 01:28:58 <BlueMatt> (I shouldnt be coding a scripting engine at 3am, ignore my babbling)
38 2012-08-02 01:44:23 <amiller> yesssss ballot theorem! final piece in my puzzle
39 2012-08-02 01:46:14 <gmaxwell> amiller: the entropy of the beta prior on a bernoulli trial?
40 2012-08-02 01:48:08 <amiller> i had previously worked out that a 49% adversary can't fork the network after X blocks, but i hadn't ruled out the possibility that it could always get the block of its choice
41 2012-08-02 01:48:34 <amiller> for example, if it wanted to delay a transaction forever
42 2012-08-02 01:49:02 <amiller> but actually the worst-case expected number of blocks until a transaction is included is also roughly X
43 2012-08-02 01:49:31 Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
44 2012-08-02 01:50:32 <amiller> i'm submitting my paper with a few bitcoin proofs to the NDSS conference, deadline is next monday, i'll also put it up on the cryptology preprint server
45 2012-08-02 01:51:03 <amiller> basically i'm just formalizing the little argument about poisson processes from the satoshi paper
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48 2012-08-02 01:55:23 <amiller> also, everything works out alright if you set a total-cost for the attacker rather than a rate like 49%
49 2012-08-02 01:55:35 <amiller> for example if they have a $1million gift card to moxie's password cracking service
50 2012-08-02 01:55:56 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
51 2012-08-02 01:56:01 <amiller> we'd just wait proportionally longer
52 2012-08-02 01:56:29 <gmaxwell> amiller: have you also formalized how latency matters?
53 2012-08-02 01:57:07 <amiller> yeah
54 2012-08-02 01:57:28 <amiller> all you have to do is set the difficulty hard enough that on average, the 51% find a block _and_ propagate it faster than the attacker can find a block
55 2012-08-02 01:57:53 <gmaxwell> That sounds exactly right to me! I look forward to seeing that spelled out.
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115 2012-08-02 06:47:24 <finway> I can run bitcoin-qt, but i can't run bitcoind, on ubuntu, what's the problem?
116 2012-08-02 06:47:42 <finway> Both under root account
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128 2012-08-02 07:09:18 <wumpus> you shouldn't run bitcoin as root
129 2012-08-02 07:09:38 <bonks> he left
130 2012-08-02 07:09:54 <wumpus> oh, right, stupid leavers :)
131 2012-08-02 07:10:05 <bonks> he didn't even give any info
132 2012-08-02 07:10:28 <bonks> but my usual mistake on different boxes is, running 64bit on 32bit :x
133 2012-08-02 07:11:33 <wumpus> yeah better do it the other way around
134 2012-08-02 07:12:02 <wumpus> but at least that will give a kind of clear error message
135 2012-08-02 07:12:21 <wumpus> or not, some ELF blablalblba
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138 2012-08-02 07:14:39 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1649 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1649>
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157 2012-08-02 08:16:22 <finway> sourceforge.net has been WALLED in China.
158 2012-08-02 08:16:39 <finway> So Chinese people can't download Bitconi Ref Client now.
159 2012-08-02 08:17:01 <finway> Are there other Download link ?
160 2012-08-02 08:17:18 <wumpus> is github also wallet? at least you could get the source
161 2012-08-02 08:17:22 <wumpus> walled*
162 2012-08-02 08:17:47 <finway> walled - can't access
163 2012-08-02 08:17:59 <finway> walled - blocked
164 2012-08-02 08:19:37 <wumpus> also, sourceforge has many mirrors, I wonde rif they blocked them all
165 2012-08-02 08:20:34 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: Diapolo opened pull request 1650 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1650>
166 2012-08-02 08:21:28 <wumpus> try this, direct link to the german mirror: http://194.95.248.253/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.6.3/bitcoin-0.6.3-win32-setup.exe
167 2012-08-02 08:22:39 t7 has joined
168 2012-08-02 08:23:23 <finway> thanks
169 2012-08-02 08:23:25 <wumpus> the czech one: http://193.1.193.66/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.6.3/bitcoin-0.6.3-win32-setup.exe
170 2012-08-02 08:24:23 <wumpus> replace filename with bitcoin-0.6.3-linux.tar.gz for the linux one, and bitcoin-0.6.3-macosx.dmg for macosx
171 2012-08-02 08:24:33 <finway> yeah
172 2012-08-02 08:24:49 <finway> there are only 10K bitcoin fans in China.
173 2012-08-02 08:24:56 <finway> But it's growing fast.
174 2012-08-02 08:25:21 <t7> bloody china
175 2012-08-02 08:25:36 <t7> human rights violators
176 2012-08-02 08:26:00 <finway> Governments are evil, more or less.
177 2012-08-02 08:28:41 * t7 is gonna try implementing ecc dsa today :3
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197 2012-08-02 09:24:51 <yellowhat> are there chinese laws forbidding bitcoin acutally? or is it just censor all-ask-questions-later?
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202 2012-08-02 09:41:36 <Joric> yellowhat, heard in china you may get landed just for receiving a package from ebay
203 2012-08-02 09:43:15 <c_k> FedEx asked me for an invoice to prove the value of my goods, I gave them one in Bitcoin values and they seemed clarification on what the exchange rate was for btc -> USD hehe
204 2012-08-02 09:43:56 <MagicalTux> c_k: already had this kind of issue in the past
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208 2012-08-02 10:02:12 <t7> ECC is much more complicated than RSA :(
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219 2012-08-02 10:41:18 <sturles> That's some transaction: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/14303137/9151f499a421583b8c27461e8d5cc8663f241d1a85d46f72748e07e134eb9239
220 2012-08-02 10:41:53 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
221 2012-08-02 10:42:09 <sturles> A load of 0.00000001 BTC inputs and a 0.015 BTC fee.
222 2012-08-02 10:43:37 <sturles> For each few of those 0.00000001 BTC an additional 0.005 BTC fee was needed, so the 0.00000001 BTC ended up costing more BTC to spend than their total value.
223 2012-08-02 10:43:40 etotheipi_ has joined
224 2012-08-02 10:44:32 <sipa> well, bitcoin is not fit for microtransactions
225 2012-08-02 10:44:44 <sipa> and this certainly qualifies as micro
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227 2012-08-02 10:45:38 <etotheipi_> sipa, how much do you know about bitcoind plans to use leveldb?
228 2012-08-02 10:49:26 <sipa> if it's up to me, we switch in 0.8
229 2012-08-02 10:50:07 <epscy> from bdb?
230 2012-08-02 10:50:18 <sipa> yes, for the block/tx index
231 2012-08-02 10:50:51 <sipa> etotheipi_: why?
232 2012-08-02 10:52:01 <wumpus> so bdb will be wallet-only?
233 2012-08-02 10:52:24 <sipa> unless by the time there is some replacement for that too, i guess
234 2012-08-02 10:52:39 <wumpus> yeah, but we'll have to remain compatible with old wallets likely forever
235 2012-08-02 10:52:40 <etotheipi_> sipa, I'm wondering what and how leveldb will be used and if there's a way for Armory to share the DB
236 2012-08-02 10:53:04 <etotheipi_> it looks like no (because it looks like multiple processes cannot share a DB), but I wanted to get the details
237 2012-08-02 10:53:14 <sipa> etotheipi_: indeed
238 2012-08-02 10:53:50 <etotheipi_> right now I'm investigating how to use it for myself... it's not only easy, it's damned fast
239 2012-08-02 10:53:58 <sipa> wumpus: or provide a separate migration tool that has the old bdb wallet code
240 2012-08-02 10:54:08 <sipa> and which is invoked automatically
241 2012-08-02 10:54:43 <etotheipi_> why not add old wallet addresses as imported addresses in the new wallets? it's not like the old ones are deterministic
242 2012-08-02 10:54:56 <sipa> that's not the problem
243 2012-08-02 10:55:23 <sipa> but i'd like to rid the codebase of bdb
244 2012-08-02 10:55:25 <wumpus> right, migration that's just a matter of implementation, but IMO we should remain out-of-the-box compatible with old wallets, not that people have to download some obscure program to port their keys over, that's asking for trouble
245 2012-08-02 10:55:54 <sipa> anyway, keeping the old bdb code is certainly easier
246 2012-08-02 10:56:03 <wumpus> even if it's in 10 years and someone kept a wallet in a safe place
247 2012-08-02 10:57:57 <sipa> etotheipi_: also, i hope to get "my" ultrapruned merged around the same time, which would mean the database layout would change significantly as well (though the blk000*.dat files will remain, have the same format, but be smaller and more numerous)
248 2012-08-02 10:58:11 <wumpus> which makes bdb a very bad choice, I guess, as the format even changes between BDB versions, it's a heavy legacy to carry
249 2012-08-02 10:58:20 <sipa> exactly
250 2012-08-02 10:58:26 <etotheipi_> sipa, I'm sure you already know this, but on Linux 64-bit, I did a raw transfer of blk0001.dat to a leveldb database (txhash->rawtx), and was able to scan the entire thing for balance information in 8.9s
251 2012-08-02 10:58:37 <etotheipi_> super impressive
252 2012-08-02 10:58:44 <wumpus> just make sure we don't make the same mistake again, for a new wallet format
253 2012-08-02 10:58:59 <wumpus> make sure all the code to handle it is in in our own control
254 2012-08-02 10:58:59 <sipa> etotheipi_: wait, scan?
255 2012-08-02 10:59:14 <wumpus> (that doesn't we should have written it, just that it's part of the codebase)
256 2012-08-02 10:59:17 <sipa> without an address->tx index?
257 2012-08-02 10:59:24 <etotheipi_> sipa, yes and no
258 2012-08-02 10:59:36 <etotheipi_> I was able to to collect all txouts in 7 seconds
259 2012-08-02 11:00:22 <etotheipi_> but when I added txins (maintaining a set<OutPoint> to quickly identify txins), I ran into the problem that the DB was iterating out of order
260 2012-08-02 11:00:33 <sipa> right
261 2012-08-02 11:00:49 <etotheipi_> so at the moment, it will take about 18s to do two scans
262 2012-08-02 11:01:18 <etotheipi_> but I'm looking into using a separate, ordered memory map to try accessing in order
263 2012-08-02 11:01:27 <etotheipi_> to see if I can get something in between
264 2012-08-02 11:01:42 <etotheipi_> with one scan
265 2012-08-02 11:01:58 <etotheipi_> either way, 18s is not bad at all for a tremendously simple implementation
266 2012-08-02 11:02:02 <sipa> i'm pondering about adding two optional indexes to ultraprune; one for finding arbitrary tx's based on txid (yes, it doea not need this!), and one based on address
267 2012-08-02 11:03:09 <sipa> but first things first :)
268 2012-08-02 11:03:12 <epscy> sipa: are you working on pruning?
269 2012-08-02 11:03:27 <sipa> well, ultraprune is nit exactly pruning
270 2012-08-02 11:03:36 <sipa> but it supports removing old blocks
271 2012-08-02 11:03:53 <etotheipi_> I'm planning out right now how I want to support my own pruning idea
272 2012-08-02 11:03:55 <epscy> is it possible to reduce teh size of the blockchain without sacraficing security?
273 2012-08-02 11:04:01 <sipa> yes
274 2012-08-02 11:04:05 <epscy> cool
275 2012-08-02 11:04:08 <etotheipi_> or rather, dual support: full node, pruned node, or light node... all in one scheme
276 2012-08-02 11:04:10 <sipa> a lot
277 2012-08-02 11:04:32 <epscy> i think that would be helpful
278 2012-08-02 11:04:49 <sipa> the principal idea is that block archiving and normal validation are two separate operations
279 2012-08-02 11:04:58 <sipa> and you can choose to do either, independently
280 2012-08-02 11:05:04 <etotheipi_> sipa, has there been any discussion/recommendations about the ideas I proposed? I haven't been on IRC at all...
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282 2012-08-02 11:05:37 <sipa> etotheipi_: you mean the sidechain with index, that coinbase commits to?
283 2012-08-02 11:05:52 <etotheipi_> I am wondering if it's something the devs want to support it, even in spirit in anyway
284 2012-08-02 11:06:05 <etotheipi_> or if I'm on my own... or why it should or should not be done
285 2012-08-02 11:06:15 <etotheipi_> sipa, yes, the alt-chain
286 2012-08-02 11:06:31 <sipa> to me, the first, and essential step is to change the mode of operation to one that keeps blocks and the tzout set
287 2012-08-02 11:06:31 <etotheipi_> err.. sidechain
288 2012-08-02 11:06:40 <sipa> instead of one big blop
289 2012-08-02 11:06:54 <etotheipi_> right, that's why I'm looking into maintaining a separate txout store
290 2012-08-02 11:07:07 <sipa> that is what ultraprune is all about
291 2012-08-02 11:07:24 <etotheipi_> sipa, is that using leveldb?
292 2012-08-02 11:07:43 <sipa> it adds an extra index with all txout data in very compact form
293 2012-08-02 11:08:18 <sipa> the backend is not relevant, i already have an std::map backend, bdb backend, and mempool-provided backend
294 2012-08-02 11:08:40 <sipa> and all validation operations just use this set of coins
295 2012-08-02 11:09:03 <etotheipi_> well the backend is slightly relevant, because I'm trying to base the design on something that works well with leveldb access efficiency (or rather, fits well into map<string,string> format)
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297 2012-08-02 11:10:01 <sipa> the current bdb backend stores a txid -> very compactly serialized list of txouts map
298 2012-08-02 11:10:57 <etotheipi_> so it stores (key,value) = (txid, serializedtxoutmap) ?
299 2012-08-02 11:11:08 <sipa> yes
300 2012-08-02 11:11:25 <sipa> the next step would be maintaining a merkle tree of this data (or other authenticated data structure), which can be committed to in the coinbase
301 2012-08-02 11:12:01 <sipa> and even as gmaxwell noted, committing against the block undo data
302 2012-08-02 11:12:18 <sipa> (whuch is just a list of txouts removed by a block)
303 2012-08-02 11:12:50 <etotheipi_> so then, are you looking towards similar functionality as I proposed? allowing trust-less light node access? or just efficeint storage ?
304 2012-08-02 11:13:04 <sipa> right now, storage and efficiently
305 2012-08-02 11:13:42 <sipa> but as soon as we can commit this data in coinbases, extensions can be provided that allow nodes to get an authenticated lookup in this datastructure
306 2012-08-02 11:14:13 <sipa> at that point, i wouldn't mind some people maintaining another index that is address-based instead of txid-based
307 2012-08-02 11:14:41 <sipa> but i don't think that is essential to operating bitcoin
308 2012-08-02 11:15:05 <etotheipi_> I think it is
309 2012-08-02 11:15:17 <sipa> i know you do :)
310 2012-08-02 11:15:27 minimoose has joined
311 2012-08-02 11:15:58 <etotheipi_> I can't think of anything better for Bitcoin than new users being able to download a client, and operate with the speed of a lite client, without actually sacrificing much
312 2012-08-02 11:16:19 <etotheipi_> of course, I need a proof-of-concept first...
313 2012-08-02 11:16:25 <sipa> when we get tx filtering, SPV nodes should be as fast
314 2012-08-02 11:16:47 <sipa> with the same security
315 2012-08-02 11:17:01 <etotheipi_> I am not familiar with what you're talking about
316 2012-08-02 11:17:07 <sipa> ih, ok
317 2012-08-02 11:17:46 <sipa> so, an SPV node would send to its peer "i am only interested in transactions that match some pattern X"
318 2012-08-02 11:18:14 <sipa> after that, it would start fetching the chain from the creation point of its own wallet on
319 2012-08-02 11:18:30 <sipa> (for the history before that, only headers suffices)
320 2012-08-02 11:18:57 <etotheipi_> right
321 2012-08-02 11:19:31 <sipa> and it would receive blocks that are filtered, but contain merkle paths to prove that they are indeed in said block
322 2012-08-02 11:20:14 <etotheipi_> so it allows a way for the light node to request the minimal amount of information needed for this, and the peer does the filtering for you
323 2012-08-02 11:20:21 <sipa> indeed
324 2012-08-02 11:21:25 <etotheipi_> my only issue with this is that it feels like it will work well for 90% of users... but any wallet with any older addresses or unknown, have to retrieve from the beginning
325 2012-08-02 11:21:54 <etotheipi_> though, if it's filtered, I guess it's not that bad
326 2012-08-02 11:22:22 <etotheipi_> and you're trusting the peer to give you everything
327 2012-08-02 11:22:24 <sipa> the nice thing is that this only requires a dumb archive node to provide the data
328 2012-08-02 11:22:32 <sipa> no, you don't
329 2012-08-02 11:22:40 <sipa> oh, right, yes!
330 2012-08-02 11:23:16 <sipa> yes, that is the weakness, you cannot be sure a transaction must really be filtered
331 2012-08-02 11:23:28 <etotheipi_> I don't think it's a huge deal... you really only need one honest full node
332 2012-08-02 11:23:38 <sipa> indeed
333 2012-08-02 11:23:56 <sipa> moreover: only an honest archive node
334 2012-08-02 11:24:30 <sipa> (which does not necessarily keep the txout set)
335 2012-08-02 11:25:42 <etotheipi_> wow! updated timing
336 2012-08-02 11:25:57 <etotheipi_> I just did two full scans of blk0001.dat in leveldb
337 2012-08-02 11:26:23 <sipa> what di you mean by full scan?
338 2012-08-02 11:26:27 <etotheipi_> scanned for all txouts first... stored them in a map<OutPoint,uint64_t>, then rescanned for txins searching that map
339 2012-08-02 11:26:43 <etotheipi_> so it did a full traversal of every blk0001.dat transaction
340 2012-08-02 11:26:58 <etotheipi_> and constructed the balance & UTXO out list for 4 addresses
341 2012-08-02 11:27:06 <etotheipi_> 11.9s
342 2012-08-02 11:27:11 <sipa> nice!
343 2012-08-02 11:28:35 <etotheipi_> that's using just leveldb::Iterator
344 2012-08-02 11:28:43 <etotheipi_> and walking through every stored tx
345 2012-08-02 11:28:47 <etotheipi_> (twice)
346 2012-08-02 11:29:02 <sipa> but your db is kept in RAM, i suppose?
347 2012-08-02 11:29:21 <etotheipi_> umm... kind of
348 2012-08-02 11:29:30 <sipa> or at least cached by the OS
349 2012-08-02 11:29:31 <etotheipi_> that 11.9s is from the time the process starts until it ends
350 2012-08-02 11:30:03 <etotheipi_> so the OS could be caching, but that is from a cold start
351 2012-08-02 11:30:09 <etotheipi_> not just the scan
352 2012-08-02 11:30:17 <sipa> SSD?
353 2012-08-02 11:30:50 <etotheipi_> no SSD
354 2012-08-02 11:31:05 <etotheipi_> that's why I'm so impressed
355 2012-08-02 11:31:27 <etotheipi_> I turned on compression, but of course it wasn't compressed much...
356 2012-08-02 11:31:43 <etotheipi_> it must just do near-optimal forward caching/pre-fetching
357 2012-08-02 11:32:16 <etotheipi_> I'm sure it wouldn't be that fast if I was iterating over all the key-value pair using the keys....
358 2012-08-02 11:32:18 <sipa> btw, not sure you saw the numbers, but the total serialized size of the txout set in ultraprune was 70 MB, a few weeks ago
359 2012-08-02 11:32:28 <etotheipi_> oh, that's pretty good!
360 2012-08-02 11:32:40 <sipa> with BDB overhead, 110
361 2012-08-02 11:33:23 <etotheipi_> leveldb overhead for storing all of blk0001.dat is about 10%
362 2012-08-02 11:33:35 <sipa> that's good
363 2012-08-02 11:33:43 <etotheipi_> blk0001.dat is 2.0 GB, the leveldb directory holding all the same info is 2.2GB
364 2012-08-02 11:33:45 <sipa> really good, even
365 2012-08-02 11:34:23 <etotheipi_> I'm tremendously impressed
366 2012-08-02 11:34:23 <sipa> looking forward to combining leveldb and ultraprune :)
367 2012-08-02 11:34:38 <etotheipi_> haha, I would be, too
368 2012-08-02 11:35:09 <etotheipi_> I spent a lot of timing trying ti implement my own caching/pre-fetching/memorymapping/etc....
369 2012-08-02 11:35:18 <etotheipi_> and didn't come close to that
370 2012-08-02 11:35:28 <yellowhat> what is the most convinient way to get the hex encoded transaction (manually) for a given tx id? is there a blockexplorer that can give me the hex encoded binary instead of a json?
371 2012-08-02 11:36:06 <sipa> though, full import took (at some point a few weeks ago, without sig checking) 7 minutes on disk, 6 minutes when on tmpfs, and 5 minutes when using an std::map backend
372 2012-08-02 11:36:18 <sipa> so i'm not sure how much there is left to gain
373 2012-08-02 11:36:26 <etotheipi_> what do you mean full import?
374 2012-08-02 11:36:38 <sipa> sync the blockchain from scratch
375 2012-08-02 11:36:40 <lianj> yellowhat: of a json or the real transaction?
376 2012-08-02 11:37:09 <sipa> (the blk0001.dat file being imported from already in OS cache beforehand)
377 2012-08-02 11:37:15 tonikt has joined
378 2012-08-02 11:37:25 <yellowhat> of a real transaction, e8ac451e7f47d566d4dd822a67fea2181ecfa7c7ba96d9faa63e2f6b26e55fd3
379 2012-08-02 11:38:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: though i used some tricks, like combining multiple small block updates into a single db commit
380 2012-08-02 11:38:51 <lianj> yellowhat: ruby -ropen-uri -e 'puts open("https://coinbase.com/network/tx/e8ac451e7f47d566d4dd822a67fea2181ecfa7c7ba96d9faa63e2f6b26e55fd3.bin").read.unpack("H*")[0]'
381 2012-08-02 11:39:02 <sipa> at least for bdb, that helps a lot
382 2012-08-02 11:39:41 <yellowhat> thanks linaj, binary is fine too :)
383 2012-08-02 11:40:04 <lianj> yellowhat: then skip the .unpack("H*")[0] ;)
384 2012-08-02 11:40:28 <etotheipi_> sipa, do you know a way to get a real "cold start" for my timing?
385 2012-08-02 11:40:33 <etotheipi_> can I somehow clear the cache?
386 2012-08-02 11:40:45 <sipa> etotheipi_: reboot :p
387 2012-08-02 11:40:50 <yellowhat> i don't have ruby installed, but i fetched the file which i can load directly then.
388 2012-08-02 11:40:57 <sipa> (read: no idea)
389 2012-08-02 11:40:58 <etotheipi_> maybe mv the directory?
390 2012-08-02 11:41:10 <sipa> that won't move the data
391 2012-08-02 11:41:17 <lianj> yellowhat: ok, have fun
392 2012-08-02 11:41:23 <sipa> and the cache is at the blockdev level
393 2012-08-02 11:41:28 <etotheipi_> gah...
394 2012-08-02 11:41:29 <sipa> not the fs level
395 2012-08-02 11:41:59 <sipa> put it on a USD disk, and unplug it :p
396 2012-08-02 11:42:18 <etotheipi_> okay, too much effort :)
397 2012-08-02 11:43:33 <etotheipi_> moving on...
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414 2012-08-02 12:25:37 <etotheipi_> sipa, indeed caching must be going on... because I'm pretty sure I'm hitting all 2.2 GB of leveldb data, but non-cached HDD reads (hdparm) is only 107 MB/s
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416 2012-08-02 12:32:10 <gmaxwell> 03:47 < wumpus> yeah, but we'll have to remain compatible with old wallets likely forever
417 2012-08-02 12:32:24 <gmaxwell> We _could_ make an external wallet converter utility potentially.
418 2012-08-02 12:33:03 <wumpus> yes, we could... but as sipa said, it needs to trigger automatically (to not upset users), so it needs to be packaged anyway
419 2012-08-02 12:33:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: maybe you want to comment: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74581.msg1072950#msg1072950
420 2012-08-02 12:34:42 PhantomSpark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
421 2012-08-02 12:35:26 <OneEyed> Anyone from bitmarket.eu here?
422 2012-08-02 12:35:39 PhantomSpark has joined
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424 2012-08-02 12:36:56 <gmaxwell> 04:35 < etotheipi_> can I somehow clear the cache?
425 2012-08-02 12:37:07 PhantomSpark has joined
426 2012-08-02 12:37:09 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
427 2012-08-02 12:37:17 <sipa> ah, good to know
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437 2012-08-02 13:13:32 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell, what is drop_caches? what do I do with it?
438 2012-08-02 13:13:44 <etotheipi_> it doesn't appear to be a script
439 2012-08-02 13:14:05 <gmaxwell> echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
440 2012-08-02 13:14:35 <gmaxwell> "Does what it says" the number is how hard to drop the caches, 3 is the hardest IIRC.
441 2012-08-02 13:15:48 <sipa> 1: free page cache
442 2012-08-02 13:15:55 <sipa> 2: dentries and inodes
443 2012-08-02 13:16:02 <sipa> 3: both
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445 2012-08-02 13:16:51 <etotheipi_> oh yeah... that just destroyed the scan speed
446 2012-08-02 13:16:55 <etotheipi_> probably 10x
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454 2012-08-02 13:57:48 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: shocking ;)
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459 2012-08-02 14:03:01 <jgarzik> I wish there was some way to filter out the idiots on bitcointalk.org, so that only useful people showed up in a thread. MagicalTux still posts there etc,. but it is tough to find sane people through all the trolls.
460 2012-08-02 14:03:13 <jgarzik> clicking 'ignore' on each one is not scalable
461 2012-08-02 14:03:51 <jgarzik> forrestv: ping
462 2012-08-02 14:04:44 <MagicalTux> jgarzik: that'd reduce most of those 50+ pages threads to a couple of pages
463 2012-08-02 14:05:05 <jgarzik> pretty much :)
464 2012-08-02 14:05:35 [\\\] has joined
465 2012-08-02 14:05:45 <epscy> the forums are boring
466 2012-08-02 14:05:48 Joric has joined
467 2012-08-02 14:06:00 <MagicalTux> epscy: you don't have enough popcorn
468 2012-08-02 14:06:26 <MagicalTux> I'm pretty sure this could turn into a nice drama
469 2012-08-02 14:06:36 <gmaxwell> "Hey what happened with $X??" "No one knows yet." "Oh. okay." [end]
470 2012-08-02 14:06:39 <epscy> MagicalTux: which thread?
471 2012-08-02 14:08:18 <MagicalTux> epscy: all, more or less
472 2012-08-02 14:08:33 <MagicalTux> right now, especially all about Bitcoinica
473 2012-08-02 14:08:48 <epscy> oh yeah, just saw Tihan's thread
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486 2012-08-02 14:51:09 Ferroh_ is now known as Ferroh
487 2012-08-02 14:51:25 <Ferroh> !seen genjix
488 2012-08-02 14:51:25 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 2 days, 19 hours, 55 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <genjix> are you really such a burnt up bitter person inside?
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494 2012-08-02 15:05:39 <Lolcust> Hello! Since ABE site is offline, does anyone know a different place where I could look up average coin age in BTC ?
495 2012-08-02 15:08:34 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
496 2012-08-02 15:16:35 <etotheipi_> sipa, random thought: is it required to use the smallest var_int possible for blockchain serializations? It seems like such a small thing, but it seems that if you start storing pieces of blocks/txs and expect to reconstruct them later, someone who used a var_int 0xff0000000000000001 to represent the number 1 would be valid but produce a different hash
497 2012-08-02 15:18:27 <etotheipi_> could cause all sorts of heartache...
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500 2012-08-02 15:19:36 <etotheipi_> something very small but significant to consider... someone could start serializing blocks using the 8byte version of every var_int and really throw off all the clients that may accidentally replace that data with smaller var_ints
501 2012-08-02 15:21:26 <t7> nice little DOS ?
502 2012-08-02 15:22:53 <jgarzik> har!
503 2012-08-02 15:23:02 <jgarzik> someone brought SatoshiDice to litecoin
504 2012-08-02 15:23:14 <etotheipi_> it may be nothing, but it also wouldn't surprise me if weird things start happening if I start creating transactions using 8byte var_ints for numTxIn and numTxOut
505 2012-08-02 15:23:28 ThomasV has joined
506 2012-08-02 15:24:00 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: we never re-build from scratch
507 2012-08-02 15:24:05 <sipa> etotheipi_: i have no idea what you're talking about
508 2012-08-02 15:24:29 <etotheipi_> sipa, I was focusing on your comment about storing unspent txouts using maps
509 2012-08-02 15:24:36 <sipa> ok?
510 2012-08-02 15:24:41 <etotheipi_> so you store a tx by its txid, and a list of txouts
511 2012-08-02 15:24:53 <etotheipi_> but you don't store the exact serialization of those txouts
512 2012-08-02 15:24:58 <jgarzik> sipa: if someone sends bitcoin transaction X, constructed sub-optimally, he worries that we internally reconstruct the tx optimally, thereby changing its serialization and thus hash value
513 2012-08-02 15:25:03 <sipa> yes, in a special compact representation
514 2012-08-02 15:25:06 <jgarzik> sipa: but I don't think we ever do that
515 2012-08-02 15:25:09 <etotheipi_> err.. you store the exact txouts, but not the tx itself
516 2012-08-02 15:25:26 <etotheipi_> then if you need to verify the hash, you reconstruct the tx from the TxOuts
517 2012-08-02 15:25:29 <etotheipi_> but you don't get the right hash
518 2012-08-02 15:25:43 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: no, we don't reconstruct
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520 2012-08-02 15:25:45 <sipa> the mapping is 1-to-1
521 2012-08-02 15:25:47 <etotheipi_> because the original creator of the tx used an 8-byte var_int
522 2012-08-02 15:26:02 <sipa> it reencodes the serialized data
523 2012-08-02 15:26:30 <sipa> byte for byte
524 2012-08-02 15:26:48 <sipa> not just its semantics
525 2012-08-02 15:28:20 <jgarzik> CastToBigNum() is fun
526 2012-08-02 15:29:00 <jgarzik> its purpose is to make canonical bignums that might have a ton of extra data (leading zeroes), somewhat analagous to what etotheipi_ is worrying about with varint
527 2012-08-02 15:29:32 <jgarzik> bitcoin has its own unique little endian bignum encoding, too, sigh
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529 2012-08-02 15:31:07 <etotheipi_> like I said, it's probably nothing... but it wouldn't surprise me to see someone create such a tx in the far future, and something important couldn't deal with it
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532 2012-08-02 15:31:56 <etotheipi_> I wasn't sure if it was a possibility with sipa's idea for storing not-exactly-serialized transactions for pruning purposes
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534 2012-08-02 15:34:47 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: (hash,n) is pretty static, regardless of how it is passed around
535 2012-08-02 15:37:22 <etotheipi_> jgarzik, what do you mean "(hash,n)"
536 2012-08-02 15:37:23 <sipa> well i do have a special serializer for amounts
537 2012-08-02 15:37:46 <sipa> that gains you 6 bytes per txout
538 2012-08-02 15:37:48 <etotheipi_> sipa, didn't you say that for pruned tx data, you were storing (txid, mapTxOut)
539 2012-08-02 15:37:57 <sipa> yes
540 2012-08-02 15:38:14 <sipa> listUnspentTxOut, really
541 2012-08-02 15:38:21 <etotheipi_> I'm envisioning that for a full node... that map holds *all* of the txOuts
542 2012-08-02 15:38:25 <etotheipi_> for that tx
543 2012-08-02 15:38:27 <sipa> no
544 2012-08-02 15:38:35 <sipa> only unspent ones
545 2012-08-02 15:38:57 <sipa> if you need the full tx, use the one in blk0001.dat
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547 2012-08-02 15:39:45 <etotheipi_> okay... I was just trying to highlight a situation where it could be an issue... but it sounds like a non-issue for you
548 2012-08-02 15:41:38 <sipa> i used the entire blockchain as test set
549 2012-08-02 15:42:14 <sipa> serializing every txout list in my format, deserializing it, and comparing it to the original
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551 2012-08-02 15:44:08 <etotheipi_> sipa, I don't expect there to be any blocks that do this
552 2012-08-02 15:44:37 <sipa> do what, precisely?
553 2012-08-02 15:44:37 <etotheipi_> I just wanted you to consider the possibility that I start creating all transactions using 8-byte var_ints for script sizes and #txin & #txout
554 2012-08-02 15:45:01 <etotheipi_> make sure this doesn't cause your code to fail
555 2012-08-02 15:45:34 <sipa> how can it? the original tx is never reconstructed
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557 2012-08-02 15:45:46 <sipa> only the txouts are used
558 2012-08-02 15:46:14 <sipa> anyway, good that you notice the potential problem
559 2012-08-02 15:46:23 <sipa> i must say i didn't consider it
560 2012-08-02 15:46:45 <etotheipi_> got it
561 2012-08-02 15:48:56 <sipa> (i did pay attention - and i'm quite sure i can guarantee - that ever txout on itself is reconstructed byte-for-byte identically)
562 2012-08-02 15:49:01 <sipa> *every
563 2012-08-02 15:49:55 <sipa> i suppose i should write the specification for the compact serialization down somewhere, as there are quite some special cases (all of which are already tested)
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568 2012-08-02 16:05:05 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened pull request 1651 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1651>
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571 2012-08-02 16:13:34 <luke-jr> sipa: we seriously just save orphans in RAM? that could explain some IBD issues
572 2012-08-02 16:14:08 <sipa> yes
573 2012-08-02 16:14:46 <luke-jr> in that case, maybe it's semi-important to fix the out-of-order IBD clients get thrown into when their download peer gets a new blockâ¦
574 2012-08-02 16:15:19 <sipa> i have recently seen strange long series of blocks being downloaded out-of-order, so it may be becoming an issue indeed
575 2012-08-02 16:17:04 <luke-jr> sipa: in my experience, if your download peer gets a new block, it starts sending you backward from that'
576 2012-08-02 16:17:13 <luke-jr> forgetting about the chronological download
577 2012-08-02 16:18:59 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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579 2012-08-02 16:19:38 <sipa> that's very strange, as your node should request getdata's in order
580 2012-08-02 16:19:48 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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583 2012-08-02 16:21:20 <jgarzik> sipa: I see a lot of such strangeness on my public nodes as well
584 2012-08-02 16:21:51 <jgarzik> sipa: you're welcome to the debug.log files now or in the future, if correlation is ever needed. I've no wallets or anything private on them. gmaxwell, you too.
585 2012-08-02 16:22:43 <jgarzik> sipa: I also see
586 2012-08-02 16:22:45 <jgarzik> getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
587 2012-08-02 16:22:56 <jgarzik> sipa: when 'getpeerinfo' shows all nodes with starting height > 190000
588 2012-08-02 16:23:55 <sipa> that's very strange
589 2012-08-02 16:24:06 <sipa> do you happen to know which versions?
590 2012-08-02 16:24:34 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: when in doubt, mine a few transactions on testnet3 with your strange behavior. point people to those tx's.
591 2012-08-02 16:24:47 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: after 30 days, post a couple on mainnet
592 2012-08-02 16:24:47 <sipa> as there have been a few fixes for the stuck block issue that overreacted
593 2012-08-02 16:25:06 <sipa> i can't remember exactly, but maybe some older buggy fix causes this
594 2012-08-02 16:25:21 <jgarzik> sipa: sorry, you know how our logging is... I know (a) I received that getdata and (b) [$these] are my list of peers
595 2012-08-02 16:26:10 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: the best test for anything like this is putting it on testnet3, and letting people beat on it with their software
596 2012-08-02 16:26:32 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: gavin put as many 'weird script' cases into testnet3 chain as he could
597 2012-08-02 16:26:53 <jgarzik> etotheipi_: please do spam the testnet3 chain with strange ideas and experiments
598 2012-08-02 16:28:31 sytse has joined
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602 2012-08-02 16:38:11 <gmaxwell> There was someone in here reporting a few particular nodes with high initial heights slamming him with unresonable looking getblocks.
603 2012-08-02 16:42:32 agricocb has joined
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605 2012-08-02 16:52:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: might have been me
606 2012-08-02 16:52:34 <OneEyed> Shit, the child-pays-for-parent will ruin my plans of becoming rich by not paying TX feesâ¦
607 2012-08-02 16:53:23 <jgarzik> wumpus: any chance you could make a pass through the pull requests, and take-or-close UI-related ones?
608 2012-08-02 16:54:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: No, zevus.
609 2012-08-02 16:54:10 RainbowDashh has joined
610 2012-08-02 16:54:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: interesting
611 2012-08-02 16:54:18 <gmaxwell> (I mean, you mentioned it too, but I was talking about zevus.)
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613 2012-08-02 16:56:28 jurov is now known as away!~jurov@rini17.broker.freenet6.net|jurov
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620 2012-08-02 17:24:23 <helo> has there been any discussion to extend the URI to allow transaction payloads (ideally signed or unsigned)?
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645 2012-08-02 18:10:30 <jgarzik> Gavin ack'd 0.7-rc1 while he's absent
646 2012-08-02 18:11:50 <luke-jr> what does "Encore on the name." mean? :/
647 2012-08-02 18:12:05 sirk390 has joined
648 2012-08-02 18:12:42 <OneEyed> "Encore" means "Again" in French, if that helps
649 2012-08-02 18:13:02 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: jgarzik opened pull request 1652 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1652>
650 2012-08-02 18:13:38 aq83 has joined
651 2012-08-02 18:14:59 <luke-jr> 1: a demand for repetition or reappearance made by an audience
652 2012-08-02 18:15:00 <luke-jr> 2a : a reappearance or additional performance demanded by an audience b : a second achievement especially that surpasses the first
653 2012-08-02 18:16:33 * luke-jr wonders if it's an autocomplete typo
654 2012-08-02 18:17:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: can you interpret?
655 2012-08-02 18:20:52 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I think he means the name is fine as it is. Regardless, it costs little to proceed with that interpretation, and change the name later.
656 2012-08-02 18:22:25 <luke-jr> "as it is"? :P
657 2012-08-02 18:22:34 <luke-jr> so can we go with "blockmining"? <.<
658 2012-08-02 18:23:43 <jgarzik> luke-jr: getblocktemplate
659 2012-08-02 18:23:55 <luke-jr> meh, whatever
660 2012-08-02 18:28:21 <luke-jr> jgarzik: OK, updated the pullreq metainfo; will rebase longpolling when the first is pulled
661 2012-08-02 18:28:59 Marf has joined
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664 2012-08-02 18:43:34 <jgarzik> luke-jr: do you have an updated doc for getblocktemplate anywhere?
665 2012-08-02 18:43:51 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0022 ?
666 2012-08-02 18:50:53 <jgarzik> luke-jr: you updated it already? good.
667 2012-08-02 18:52:57 rdponticelli has joined
668 2012-08-02 18:53:07 <luke-jr> yeah
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679 2012-08-02 19:46:50 <BlueMatt> does it seem to anyone else that Script.FindAndDelete could be implemented better?...seems like requiring that the script chunk be pushed the same way (same OP_PUSHDATA/etc) could cause a problem somewhere...
680 2012-08-02 19:47:33 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
681 2012-08-02 19:50:30 <BlueMatt> (or maybe I'm complaining because it makes re-implementing it harder with the way bitcoinj does its script parsing)
682 2012-08-02 19:52:25 <Ferroh> so I know this is a little off topic
683 2012-08-02 19:52:48 <Ferroh> I am implementing an API for this site, and I realized that I could make site.com/account/history the usual page that you visit to see your account history
684 2012-08-02 19:53:07 <Ferroh> but if you POST a var "api" to that page, then it could return JSON data only
685 2012-08-02 19:53:14 <Ferroh> OR I could do what we typically see,
686 2012-08-02 19:53:28 <Ferroh> and make users visit site.com/api/account/history to get that JSON data
687 2012-08-02 19:53:53 <Ferroh> do you guys think it would be bad to just tell users to go to the usual pages and POST "api" to the page to see what api data it will give you?
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693 2012-08-02 19:56:07 <Ferroh> whatever i'll just make an API URL, i can always change it
694 2012-08-02 19:56:30 ForceMajeure is now known as Guest92613
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699 2012-08-02 20:01:50 <grondilu> anyone has managed to compile bitcoin on fedora?
700 2012-08-02 20:02:06 <Ferroh> probably a lot of people :P
701 2012-08-02 20:02:22 <Ferroh> you are probably missing a dependency
702 2012-08-02 20:02:25 <Ferroh> what is the error
703 2012-08-02 20:02:36 Maged has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
704 2012-08-02 20:02:47 <Ferroh> the readme says all the dependencies you need to install
705 2012-08-02 20:02:57 <Ferroh> on fedora do you apt-get stuff? just pretend it's ubuntu in that case
706 2012-08-02 20:03:09 <Ferroh> i havent used fedora in like 5 years
707 2012-08-02 20:03:26 <BlueMatt> grondilu: you have to compile your own openssl
708 2012-08-02 20:03:26 <grondilu> at some point I lacked boost/thread.hpp so I installed boost141 and boost141-dev but it seems the header is still not found.
709 2012-08-02 20:03:44 <grondilu> BlueMatt: really?
710 2012-08-02 20:03:46 <BlueMatt> oh, boost, well I dunno
711 2012-08-02 20:03:50 <Ferroh> do you know the location of the boost headers?
712 2012-08-02 20:03:58 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
713 2012-08-02 20:04:19 <BlueMatt> grondilu: last I heard fedora still removed the ecdsa stuff we use for copyright reasons
714 2012-08-02 20:04:32 <BlueMatt> so you had to compile your own, I wouldnt know the current status though
715 2012-08-02 20:05:31 <grondilu> Ferroh: /usr/include/boost141/boost/thread.hpp
716 2012-08-02 20:05:44 <Ferroh> BOOST_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include/boost141/ makefile -f makefile.unix -j2
717 2012-08-02 20:05:48 <Ferroh> try building using that then
718 2012-08-02 20:05:59 <grondilu> ok
719 2012-08-02 20:08:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: s/copyright/patent/
720 2012-08-02 20:08:32 <BlueMatt> yea, sorry
721 2012-08-02 20:08:36 <grondilu> I get a lot of errors
722 2012-08-02 20:09:26 <grondilu> lots of "#error "Boost threads unavailable on this platform"
723 2012-08-02 20:09:43 <gmaxwell> grondilu: it's trivial to complile bitcoin on fedora, other than the openssl it works out of the box with the right arguments
724 2012-08-02 20:10:26 <gmaxwell> for bitcoind, BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX='-mt' make -j4 -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP=
725 2012-08-02 20:10:42 <gmaxwell> For the GUI, qmake-qt4 USE_UPNP=- BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX=-mt
726 2012-08-02 20:11:15 <gmaxwell> I have openssl builds at http://people.xiph.org/~greg/openssl/ though I'm a version behind and need to update them.
727 2012-08-02 20:11:41 <gmaxwell> (also, if you use my binaries instead of just making your own based on my changes in the spec be sure to validate the signatures)
728 2012-08-02 20:11:54 <grondilu> gmaxwell: src/util.h:21:28: fatal error: boost/thread.hpp: No such file or directory
729 2012-08-02 20:12:26 <grondilu> and I did exactly 'qmake-qt4 USE_UPNP=- BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX=-mt'
730 2012-08-02 20:12:30 <gmaxwell> grondilu: what version of fedora are you on?
731 2012-08-02 20:12:36 <grondilu> F17
732 2012-08-02 20:13:07 <gmaxwell> Sounds like you've screwed up your boost install then.
733 2012-08-02 20:13:26 <gmaxwell> do you have boost-devel-1.48.0-13.fc17 installed?
734 2012-08-02 20:14:54 <grondilu> I did install boost141-devel. I guess that's my mistake.
735 2012-08-02 20:15:16 <gmaxwell> just yum install boost-devel
736 2012-08-02 20:15:59 * grondilu is doing that
737 2012-08-02 20:16:01 <gmaxwell> you'll probably need some qt-devel if you don't already have it.
738 2012-08-02 20:17:20 <grondilu> yeah I installed this one already
739 2012-08-02 20:23:50 <BlueMatt> Im disappointed no one seems to care about win32 auto-update, I would argue thats addresses a decently major issue (people having upgrade apathy) that results in a number of other issues
740 2012-08-02 20:26:20 <gmaxwell> But it brings with it other issues.
741 2012-08-02 20:26:46 <gmaxwell> Also, we are short on windows using technical contributors in general.
742 2012-08-02 20:28:41 <Eliel> auto-update brings more danger than benefits IMO
743 2012-08-02 20:29:00 jurov is now known as jurov|away
744 2012-08-02 20:29:03 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
745 2012-08-02 20:29:03 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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747 2012-08-02 20:29:17 <gmaxwell> Eliel: there are ways to address the dangers.
748 2012-08-02 20:29:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: which other issues?
749 2012-08-02 20:30:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok, but we are heavy windows users in general, which means we should have auto-update for them...
750 2012-08-02 20:31:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the security problem of potentially being able to push a rooted (private key stealing) bitcoin out to an enormous number of users near instantly.
751 2012-08-02 20:31:45 <gmaxwell> (and the fud connected to people promoting that risk)
752 2012-08-02 20:31:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: gitian?
753 2012-08-02 20:31:59 <gmaxwell> Yes. thus "there are ways to address the dangers"
754 2012-08-02 20:32:01 <BlueMatt> the fud I agree, but the actual risk is pretty low
755 2012-08-02 20:32:07 <BlueMatt> oh, missed that
756 2012-08-02 20:32:33 <gmaxwell> I think it should happen, I don't think you should worry that it hasn't happened yet.
757 2012-08-02 20:32:54 <BlueMatt> Im not worried, Im just commenting on the lack of interest
758 2012-08-02 20:37:06 guruvan_ has joined
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762 2012-08-02 20:40:25 <Eliel> well, if it's ever done, it should only happen if the new version has signatures from several different developers.
763 2012-08-02 20:41:04 <wumpus> which is what the gitian updater does isn't it...
764 2012-08-02 20:41:12 MobiusL has joined
765 2012-08-02 20:41:18 <BlueMatt> yes, thats how it is in the current implementation
766 2012-08-02 20:41:22 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
767 2012-08-02 20:41:31 <wumpus> I'm also surprised, many people with comments but no one bothers looking at the actual pull :p
768 2012-08-02 20:41:40 darkee has joined
769 2012-08-02 20:41:42 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, sounds like work
770 2012-08-02 20:41:51 <phantomcircuit> that's not allowed around here
771 2012-08-02 20:42:38 <gmaxwell> Eliel: thats exactly what gitian is for... I also asked for the ability to have NAK votes, dunno if that got in yet.
772 2012-08-02 20:42:52 <gmaxwell> Eliel: so e.g. you could give out keys to veto a release a bit more liberally than to approve it.
773 2012-08-02 20:43:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm...how would that be implemented in a mitm scenario?
774 2012-08-02 20:44:14 <wumpus> I also think windows auto updating is important (or at least make it easier to do, like bluematt's pull does), but I'm not a windows developer myself so there's not that much I can do
775 2012-08-02 20:44:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: by pulling signatures from multiple places and not updating until it can get them from more than one.
776 2012-08-02 20:45:08 <wumpus> for linux and mac etc it's unsubstantial, those operating systems have their own sw updating methods, it's just imporant for windows
777 2012-08-02 20:45:11 <BlueMatt> and if the ones which are providing negative sigs are blocked by the mitm?
778 2012-08-02 20:45:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Then you fail. Thats okay. It can't be perfect and doesn't have to be.
779 2012-08-02 20:46:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thresholds can be set so that you have to compromise a bunch of things instead of a few to get a bad update out and installed; thats the most we could hope to achieve.
780 2012-08-02 20:46:45 <c_k> any of you guys using OS X 10.8?
781 2012-08-02 20:46:47 <BlueMatt> that seems overly brittle...I agree it would be nice to have a nak method, but it seems like you could accomplish something similar with differing levels of key values
782 2012-08-02 20:47:00 <c_k> bit coin won't run without disabling approved apps in system settings ...
783 2012-08-02 20:47:15 <BlueMatt> (as gitian is, each signer gets a score, and you have to have a min score)
784 2012-08-02 20:47:18 <c_k> there is also something about OK'd developers that will let the app run without having to do that
785 2012-08-02 20:47:39 <c_k> you guys should investigate getting the approved developer thing, what ever it is
786 2012-08-02 20:47:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you can, but you can't cap a signer to only provide nakness.
787 2012-08-02 20:47:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: seems like for liberal allocation of otherwise nak signers you could give them a low score and get something sort-of similar wihout the mitm ugliness
788 2012-08-02 20:48:14 <BlueMatt> c_k: there has been recent discussion of doing that
789 2012-08-02 20:48:29 <c_k> ah yeah, I just looked at the mailing list after I said it and saw it :S
790 2012-08-02 20:49:59 sgornick has joined
791 2012-08-02 20:50:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: in any case, indifference to a new release is normal. You don't want to have a high score. And you also don't want a bunch of useless "ran for me +1s" that can be undone by someone a few hours later "-1000 found remote root exploit in code audit"
792 2012-08-02 20:51:44 osmosis has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
793 2012-08-02 20:52:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it seems to me like the major-bug-found-after-release issue isnt really addressed well by a nak system either
794 2012-08-02 20:52:52 <BlueMatt> if you mean maliciously-added-major-bug-found-after-release then I dont know that a nak system necessarily solves that either
795 2012-08-02 20:52:55 <gmaxwell> Fedora's release process has this problem in fact, rpms go into testing first and people can +1 one and enough trigger updates to go out. Sometimes you'll see +1 works for me +1 didn't crash -1 corrupts hdd after 24 hours and the release pushes.
796 2012-08-02 20:53:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: sure it does, because the updates should quarantine releases in any case.
797 2012-08-02 20:53:57 <BlueMatt> Im not concerned about major-bug-found-after-release, for that a new release can be pushed really quick and the buggy one can be removed immediately
798 2012-08-02 20:54:08 <gmaxwell> Some people connected with tor project folks wrote a very long paper on autoupdates exploring all these issues, it's a little sad that this research is just being ignored.
799 2012-08-02 20:54:36 <gmaxwell> especially because we have all the security concerns they have and then some.
800 2012-08-02 20:54:44 <sipa> luke-jr: i interpret "encore" as +1
801 2012-08-02 20:55:07 <BlueMatt> I agree it would absolutely be nice to do something like naks, but I just dont see a way to implement it well that doesnt make the update system a bit brittle to server issues but also is useful against mitm attacks
802 2012-08-02 20:55:32 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
803 2012-08-02 20:55:47 <BlueMatt> though Im probably just being dense
804 2012-08-02 20:56:10 <BlueMatt> in any case, adding it to gitian after auto-update is added to bitcoin isnt hard :)
805 2012-08-02 20:56:35 <sipa> just have a tuple (name,key,maxposscore,minnegscore) for all developers
806 2012-08-02 20:56:53 <sipa> and several urls to fetch signatures from
807 2012-08-02 20:57:03 <BlueMatt> and mitm attacks?
808 2012-08-02 20:57:11 <sipa> like?
809 2012-08-02 20:57:27 <BlueMatt> which blocks urls which are providing negative sigs
810 2012-08-02 20:57:31 deeone has joined
811 2012-08-02 20:57:35 <BlueMatt> or maybe a ddos against those servers
812 2012-08-02 20:57:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think you're overestimating the sever concerns. If N servers can't be kept up we have other problems. Also: Here is a method: Must have enough abs(score), thus making it much harder to filter out naks.
813 2012-08-02 20:57:52 <sipa> that's why there are several urls
814 2012-08-02 20:57:57 <sipa> in multiple legislations
815 2012-08-02 20:58:02 <sipa> on multiple servers
816 2012-08-02 20:58:10 <sipa> by multiple hosts/providers
817 2012-08-02 20:58:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: he's concerned that you'll be not allowed to connect to ANY of the honest ones.
818 2012-08-02 20:58:35 <gmaxwell> And I say just solve that by requring at lest N servers. Which he thinks makes the process brittle.
819 2012-08-02 20:59:16 <sipa> hmm, could be
820 2012-08-02 20:59:24 <gmaxwell> Or instead of abs(score), just require N people where perhaps many people give 0 scores because they didn't review it... they're just signing as evidence that the list is complete and hasn't been nak filtered.
821 2012-08-02 20:59:27 <BlueMatt> meh, maybe Im just being overly risk-sensitive, still Im not a huge fan of the implementation
822 2012-08-02 21:00:01 <BlueMatt> that works a bit better
823 2012-08-02 21:00:31 <sipa> hey let's build a block chain with signatures!
824 2012-08-02 21:00:34 <gmaxwell> hahah.
825 2012-08-02 21:00:42 <BlueMatt> better yet, a DHT
826 2012-08-02 21:00:49 <sipa> oh yes!
827 2012-08-02 21:00:59 <gmaxwell> There is a point here, we could merge mine a gitian signature table.
828 2012-08-02 21:01:12 <gmaxwell> Makes it hard to provide a nak filtered table then.
829 2012-08-02 21:01:31 <sipa> overkill...
830 2012-08-02 21:01:42 <BlueMatt> yea...just 0-value sigs would work too
831 2012-08-02 21:01:47 <BlueMatt> is devrandom on, btw?
832 2012-08-02 21:02:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well could I filter out naks while leaving 0-value sigs in? (because they're currently independant)?
833 2012-08-02 21:03:10 <BlueMatt> true, but you could merge them in some way without merged-mining (just a sig chain?)
834 2012-08-02 21:03:12 deeone has left ()
835 2012-08-02 21:03:30 <gmaxwell> Sure.
836 2012-08-02 21:04:02 <gmaxwell> The value of the merged mining is that you can validate that there was a bunch of computation behind the sigset.
837 2012-08-02 21:04:19 <BlueMatt> I dont see how that is entirely relevant here?
838 2012-08-02 21:04:20 <sipa> wow
839 2012-08-02 21:04:37 <BlueMatt> I dont care how big the computers the devs have?
840 2012-08-02 21:04:40 <sipa> btc/usd > 10 :o
841 2012-08-02 21:04:43 <BlueMatt> I care that they have sigs
842 2012-08-02 21:04:50 <BlueMatt> again?
843 2012-08-02 21:04:52 <BlueMatt> dammit
844 2012-08-02 21:06:32 <BlueMatt> what we need is some super-rich billionare who wants to make a very small % to invest in bitcoin and fix the price within a range
845 2012-08-02 21:06:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it has nothing to do with how much computing power the devs have. It tells you that someone couldn't have maliciously filtered the tally without either great cost or control of significant computing power... but yes, not really necessary.. just lots of 0-value sigs confirming the whole set makes sense.
846 2012-08-02 21:07:27 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: ACK troll for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1526 - gavin's height in coinbase
847 2012-08-02 21:07:51 <cande> g'night fokes
848 2012-08-02 21:07:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I like the idea of making sure the tally isnt maliciously edited, but I dont see how an independent 0-work "blockchain" that requires each block to be from a dev (with a sig) doesnt work just as well?
849 2012-08-02 21:08:18 <BlueMatt> that said, I dont see which problem that is necessarily addressing
850 2012-08-02 21:08:19 <cande> fyi, bitcoin just hit 11$
851 2012-08-02 21:08:21 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: why octet on 1526 and not last _bit_ ?
852 2012-08-02 21:08:59 <Ferroh> jesus:
853 2012-08-02 21:09:02 <Ferroh> " I need to find the highest number from 3 different numbers. The only thing I've found is max() but you can only use 2 numbers. "
854 2012-08-02 21:09:05 <Ferroh> /sigh
855 2012-08-02 21:09:15 <gmaxwell> ...
856 2012-08-02 21:09:18 <BlueMatt> wow
857 2012-08-02 21:09:38 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: send them to this to really blow their minds: http://pages.ripco.net/~jgamble/nw.html
858 2012-08-02 21:09:57 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
859 2012-08-02 21:10:08 <grondilu> db_cxx.h is provided by three different packages, which one should I install? db4-devel, libdb-devel or compat-db-headers?
860 2012-08-02 21:10:36 osmosis has joined
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862 2012-08-02 21:11:09 <BlueMatt> if you have malicious dev(s) they just ignore naks and build their chain without them, if you dont, I dont see why a release would be pushed with any naks at all? If a dev is nak'ing a release, chances are the release would be delayed (or the nak is for political/disagreement issues, in which case its all moot)
863 2012-08-02 21:11:13 <gmaxwell> grondilu: db4-devel
864 2012-08-02 21:11:43 <BlueMatt> if the nak comes after release (SECURITY BUG FOUND OMGGG) then the malicious mitm attacker just provides the first part of the chain and poof
865 2012-08-02 21:12:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: because you require the chain to be sufficiently long that it would be hard for devs to get a long enough chain without would-be-nakers participating.
866 2012-08-02 21:12:24 <sipa> right, but what if everyone already positively signed
867 2012-08-02 21:12:28 <BlueMatt> I dont really see that working, are we now expecting all devs to have mining rigs?
868 2012-08-02 21:12:29 <sipa> and then a flaw is found?
869 2012-08-02 21:12:59 <BlueMatt> (otherwise the devs with bigger rigs could be the malicious ones...)
870 2012-08-02 21:13:13 <BlueMatt> and now we are weighting devs sig value by their hash power?
871 2012-08-02 21:13:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: you have people who can add [-100,0] on good releases they put in 0. You require enough participants that you always have evidence that nakers had a chance.
872 2012-08-02 21:13:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: _STOP_
873 2012-08-02 21:13:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you're being stupid. no one said anything like "weighting devs sig value by their hash power"
874 2012-08-02 21:14:04 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
875 2012-08-02 21:14:12 <gmaxwell> Whenever someone you know isn't a complete idiot says something you think is insanely stupid you need to step back and ask if you misunderstood.
876 2012-08-02 21:14:14 <BlueMatt> no, you dont weight them, but now the hash power matters directly in the ability to avoid attack
877 2012-08-02 21:14:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: No, it doesn't at all. I'm trying to figure out where your misunderstanding is.
878 2012-08-02 21:15:15 <gmaxwell> ah.. are you thinking I meant long in terms of computation?? No I mean long in terms of numbers of participants.
879 2012-08-02 21:15:38 <BlueMatt> oh, hey we are saying the same thing
880 2012-08-02 21:15:42 <BlueMatt> sorry
881 2012-08-02 21:16:31 <BlueMatt> wait, didnt you say merged-mined?
882 2012-08-02 21:16:33 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
883 2012-08-02 21:16:38 <BlueMatt> that requires hash power does it not?
884 2012-08-02 21:16:42 rdponticelli has joined
885 2012-08-02 21:16:57 <sipa> yes, but not necessarily your own
886 2012-08-02 21:17:09 <gmaxwell> I did earlier, but I was talking about someting else. And yes, I expect it would just be timestamped by some pool or another.
887 2012-08-02 21:17:11 <sipa> or not necessarily be people who influence the signatures
888 2012-08-02 21:17:30 <BlueMatt> oh, Im not a big fan of that...now we are trusting both devs + big miners
889 2012-08-02 21:17:35 <gmaxwell> Just some evidence that this is the real, complete, list.
890 2012-08-02 21:17:54 <BlueMatt> big miners would likely be much easier to convince to join a malicious group, and now it gets easier for them
891 2012-08-02 21:17:58 <sipa> well, it does at least function as timestamping
892 2012-08-02 21:18:04 <sipa> but why do you need that?
893 2012-08-02 21:18:13 <sipa> you dont risk a fake signature
894 2012-08-02 21:18:14 <gmaxwell> It's not needed, I agree. I think using just acks are fine.
895 2012-08-02 21:18:20 <sipa> you risk an old signature
896 2012-08-02 21:18:33 <sipa> so you want the newest set of signatures always
897 2012-08-02 21:18:34 <BlueMatt> anyway, back to my earlier point, I dont think we are addressing an actual issue with this branch of discussion
898 2012-08-02 21:18:34 bitllc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
899 2012-08-02 21:18:41 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
900 2012-08-02 21:18:54 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> if you have malicious dev(s) they just ignore naks and build their chain without them, if you dont, I dont see why a release would be pushed with any naks at all? If a dev is nak'ing a release, chances are the release would be delayed (or the nak is for political/disagreement issues, in which case its all moot) <-- still stands
901 2012-08-02 21:19:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: No, we're not we're addressing a pointless obsession about not having to poll multiple servers by boiling the oceans.
902 2012-08-02 21:19:13 <BlueMatt> ofc if the nak comes after release, meh
903 2012-08-02 21:19:47 <gmaxwell> Because the release should be quarantined.
904 2012-08-02 21:20:08 <BlueMatt> ok, let me rephrase, Im probably wrong, but afaict, this actually doesnt remove the requirement of multiple servers for address any real attack scenario
905 2012-08-02 21:20:40 <gmaxwell> (You hit critical mass sigs for install (probably at time 0) then you wait another 24+random hours before installing; NAKs come before you install)
906 2012-08-02 21:21:37 d4de has joined
907 2012-08-02 21:21:46 <BlueMatt> ok...that addresses the issues with non-malicious devs, but in that case, maybe we should require a release wait 24 hours before pushing to gitian update files?
908 2012-08-02 21:22:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the multiple signatures do reduce/remove the need for mulple servers. Considerâ say your required sig length is everyone with an accepted signing key. Clearly a nak could not be filtered.
909 2012-08-02 21:22:30 <BlueMatt> agreed, but that can be implemented with the current gitian
910 2012-08-02 21:22:37 <sipa> surely people can change their sig?
911 2012-08-02 21:22:49 <sipa> i mean, go from positive to negative
912 2012-08-02 21:23:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it must be enforced by the clients, because you can't just assume devs are non-malicious.
913 2012-08-02 21:24:27 PhantomSpark has joined
914 2012-08-02 21:24:59 <gmaxwell> Its just an extension of the thinking that holding a key that lets you autoupdate on your own is basically proof that you're not competent to hold one to a group rather than a single person. (because you're too attractive a target)
915 2012-08-02 21:25:06 <BlueMatt> absolutely, but I (am probably being dense) dont see how any of this has solved any real attack scenarios with malicious devs in a way that cant be done with current gitian?
916 2012-08-02 21:25:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, but...that goes back to how to implement it...
917 2012-08-02 21:26:01 <gmaxwell> It can only be fixed in current gitian by requiring a lot of scores and giving a lot of people keys which increases risks.
918 2012-08-02 21:26:35 <gmaxwell> Vs being able to give out negative to zero only keys which only pose the risk of someone obstructing an update.
919 2012-08-02 21:27:01 <gmaxwell> which is a far far less serious problem.
920 2012-08-02 21:27:15 <BlueMatt> yes, I agree naks would be nice, absolutely
921 2012-08-02 21:27:41 <BlueMatt> but, aside from requiring data from N/M servers, I dont think we have a solution to getting those naks in a reliable way
922 2012-08-02 21:27:47 <gmaxwell> but then you pointed out plain naks can be filtered. So I suggested a participants threshold. And somehow we got more complicated from there. :)
923 2012-08-02 21:28:45 <gmaxwell> Soon we'll reinvent addman. :)
924 2012-08-02 21:29:10 <BlueMatt> another idea: sig groups, instead of naks, require n/m sigs from each of x sig groups. It allows for less risk of a bunch of low-value sigs adding up to push an update?
925 2012-08-02 21:30:26 <gmaxwell> 14:23 < gmaxwell> Soon we'll reinvent addman. :)
926 2012-08-02 21:30:37 <BlueMatt> addman?
927 2012-08-02 21:30:44 <sipa> addrman, i suppose
928 2012-08-02 21:30:46 <gmaxwell> addrman .. lossy r key.
929 2012-08-02 21:30:51 <BlueMatt> ah
930 2012-08-02 21:31:02 <gmaxwell> You can have groups based on where you heard the sig.. groups based on the identy of the sig itself...
931 2012-08-02 21:31:09 <sipa> hehe
932 2012-08-02 21:31:28 <BlueMatt> hah
933 2012-08-02 21:31:31 <BlueMatt> ok, ok
934 2012-08-02 21:31:32 <gmaxwell> but actually.. geo/national groups is an interesting though.
935 2012-08-02 21:32:11 abracadab has joined
936 2012-08-02 21:32:21 <gmaxwell> naks are still good though. They reflect where open source security comes from: It only takes one person to find a problem to sound an alarm that fixes the world.
937 2012-08-02 21:32:22 abracadab is now known as abracadabra
938 2012-08-02 21:32:38 <BlueMatt> absolutely
939 2012-08-02 21:32:56 <BlueMatt> but, in the case of non-malicious devs, its easier to address the issue outside of gitian
940 2012-08-02 21:33:01 <BlueMatt> and in the case of malicious devs...
941 2012-08-02 21:33:38 <BlueMatt> anyway, Im not being helpful here, Im gonna go back to finishing off the bitcoinj script execution engine
942 2012-08-02 21:33:39 <gmaxwell> You shouldn't bother seperating the cases. Just assume a subset are malicious. Thats the threat model you ought to take for this.
943 2012-08-02 21:34:10 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
944 2012-08-02 21:34:15 <gmaxwell> yea.. Later I'll go find that tor related autoupdate paper and bug you to read it(again).
945 2012-08-02 21:34:42 <sipa> let's run bitcoin inside a VM, and distribute update code via signed transactions with a huge txout script
946 2012-08-02 21:34:55 <gmaxwell> 24 hour high: 11
947 2012-08-02 21:35:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: which spends the prior version's txn.
948 2012-08-02 21:35:50 <sipa> yes!!
949 2012-08-02 21:36:38 <gmaxwell> "There can only be one. No really. Our byzantine consensus algorithim makes the possiblity of a conflicting update negligible"
950 2012-08-02 21:39:36 bitllc has joined
951 2012-08-02 21:43:00 <sipa> oh, and you can force a reorg by spending the code tx, and sending it to 000000
952 2012-08-02 21:43:19 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Quit!)
953 2012-08-02 21:43:20 <sipa> then it reorgs back both the code and the chain to an earlier version :)
954 2012-08-02 21:43:36 Maged has joined
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956 2012-08-02 21:43:43 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
957 2012-08-02 21:44:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: hush, solidcoin people might be listening, they may implement these terrible ideas. ;)
958 2012-08-02 21:44:38 <copumpkin> I think they take your disapproval as an indicator of viability
959 2012-08-02 21:44:57 MC-Eeepc has joined
960 2012-08-02 21:44:58 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: so pick lots of other shitty things and tell everyone how much you disapprove of them
961 2012-08-02 21:45:58 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
962 2012-08-02 21:48:03 <jgarzik> IMNSHO Windows auto-update should be a post-0.7 issue
963 2012-08-02 21:48:27 <jgarzik> though I admit I am biased and don't like auto-update in general
964 2012-08-02 21:49:23 <gmaxwell> I think it's a post 0.7 issue now.
965 2012-08-02 21:50:18 rdponticelli has joined
966 2012-08-02 21:52:09 <gmaxwell> (that isn't a statement of what it should or shouldn't beâ it just hasn't had enough attention yet to do it in 0.7; also, I think the problems we have with upgrade reliablity block it anyways)
967 2012-08-02 21:55:33 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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969 2012-08-02 22:00:52 <MC-Eeepc> syncing to this usb stick isnt going well
970 2012-08-02 22:02:00 <sipa> sync to ram, and then copy it to your usb stick :)
971 2012-08-02 22:02:02 <MC-Eeepc> maybe this was a mistake
972 2012-08-02 22:02:12 Maccer has joined
973 2012-08-02 22:02:28 <MC-Eeepc> dont have enough rams on this one
974 2012-08-02 22:03:09 <MC-Eeepc> i even took it back out of the truecrypt container to little effect
975 2012-08-02 22:03:15 <MC-Eeepc> anyway
976 2012-08-02 22:03:19 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
977 2012-08-02 22:03:31 <MC-Eeepc> whats the lastest word of making the chain reasonable
978 2012-08-02 22:03:39 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: writes on most usb sticks are VERY slow.
979 2012-08-02 22:03:44 da2ce781 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
980 2012-08-02 22:03:45 <Gladamas> blockchain pruning
981 2012-08-02 22:03:51 <MC-Eeepc> im reading buzzwords like ultraprune and archive nodes and stuff
982 2012-08-02 22:04:03 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: You asked this something like 24 hours ago.
983 2012-08-02 22:04:13 <sipa> yes, buzzword compliancy is our #1 priority
984 2012-08-02 22:04:23 <MC-Eeepc> did i?
985 2012-08-02 22:07:28 <gmaxwell> I thought so! wasn't it you that was providing the weekly "DHTs solve everything!" ?
986 2012-08-02 22:07:51 <MC-Eeepc> yeah that sounds like me
987 2012-08-02 22:08:16 <sipa> not *just* you...
988 2012-08-02 22:08:30 sirk390 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
989 2012-08-02 22:10:48 grondilu has joined
990 2012-08-02 22:11:10 <grondilu> I get an error during link edition: /usr/bin/ld: /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.a(dso_dlfcn.o): undefined reference to symbol 'dladdr@@GLIBC_2.0'
991 2012-08-02 22:13:44 <gmaxwell> grondilu: you've done something horrible and weird.
992 2012-08-02 22:13:54 <MC-Eeepc> what is the write pattern of a chain sync
993 2012-08-02 22:14:00 <MC-Eeepc> lots of tiny writes?
994 2012-08-02 22:15:56 <grondilu> I've just compiled and installed openssl on /usr/local
995 2012-08-02 22:16:01 darkee has joined
996 2012-08-02 22:16:10 <gmaxwell> grondilu: and you expected that to work? :)
997 2012-08-02 22:16:32 <grondilu> well... yes
998 2012-08-02 22:16:37 <gmaxwell> grondilu: I expect that something someplace needs -ldl but I don't know what where.
999 2012-08-02 22:17:21 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin complies fine against the fedora stock openssl packages modified to not exclude ecdsa, but openssl needs a bunch of options to get a sane build.
1000 2012-08-02 22:19:33 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1001 2012-08-02 22:20:09 <grondilu> ok so I should search a modified fedora stock openssl package
1002 2012-08-02 22:20:30 <gmaxwell> grondilu: like the one I gave you the link to earlier... :)
1003 2012-08-02 22:21:17 <grondilu> could you give it to me again please?
1004 2012-08-02 22:22:13 * grondilu just ran 'make test' in the openssl directory
1005 2012-08-02 22:22:20 <grondilu> yet I get a 'ALL TESTS SUCCESSFUL.
1006 2012-08-02 22:22:20 B0g4r7__ has joined
1007 2012-08-02 22:22:34 <grondilu> ' in openssl. So the build looks fine :/
1008 2012-08-02 22:23:39 <gmaxwell> grondilu: the argument given in the fedora build are like five lines long. There is a bunch of stuff you need to set to get it to correctly build dynamic libraries and such.
1009 2012-08-02 22:24:32 <MagicalTux> grondilu: add -ldl at the end of LIBS
1010 2012-08-02 22:24:49 <MagicalTux> basically you're linking openssl statically, which means you need to also add openssl's dependencies
1011 2012-08-02 22:25:06 <MagicalTux> (linking dynamically would also solve this)
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1014 2012-08-02 22:25:29 <grondilu> ahh unfortunately I have to go now.
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1025 2012-08-02 22:48:06 <galambo> /j #bitcoin
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