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  5 2012-08-04 00:06:24 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you think pynode is slow, wait till you see bitcoinj verifying signatures! (its even java all the way down, implementing ecdsa using java's BigInteger...)
  6 2012-08-04 00:06:44 <BlueMatt> its slow as can be, and its even doing multithreaded sig checking
  7 2012-08-04 00:07:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: how many ecdsa verifications/sec?
  8 2012-08-04 00:07:54 <BlueMatt> I havent checked
  9 2012-08-04 00:08:12 <BlueMatt> back of the envelope: 100?
 10 2012-08-04 00:08:24 <jgarzik> time to figure out [v]fExec and OP_IF...  bleh
 11 2012-08-04 00:08:35 <jgarzik> are we there yet Papa Smurf?
 12 2012-08-04 00:08:46 <BlueMatt> it looks bad, but if you stare at it for like 30 seconds its actually quite simple
 13 2012-08-04 00:09:28 * jgarzik wonders why the hell OP_AND and friends are disabled???
 14 2012-08-04 00:10:02 <jgarzik> surely OP_ADD is just as "dangerous" as OP_AND
 15 2012-08-04 00:10:04 <luke-jr> jgarzik: because the "fix" to that exploit was to disable every opcode not in use -.-
 16 2012-08-04 00:10:22 <luke-jr>       3 60001 "/Snoopy:0.1/ETH Zurich/PlanetLab/" unknown <-- wtf is this?
 17 2012-08-04 00:10:24 <BlueMatt> I wondered why half of the disabled opcodes are disabled
 18 2012-08-04 00:10:47 <BlueMatt> looks like a research data-gatherer
 19 2012-08-04 00:10:54 <BlueMatt> at eth zurich
 20 2012-08-04 00:11:18 <BlueMatt> probably at the planetlab ;) http://www.csg.ethz.ch/research/planetlab_at_ETH/
 21 2012-08-04 00:11:56 <sipa> i figure by the time they were disabled, satoshi didn't consider backward-incompatible updates to be a problem
 22 2012-08-04 00:12:32 <BlueMatt> s/by/at/ ?
 23 2012-08-04 00:12:47 <Eliel> has there ever been any cases of someone managing a doublespend after just two confirmations?
 24 2012-08-04 00:13:01 <BlueMatt> hard to say
 25 2012-08-04 00:13:15 <BlueMatt> maybe blockchain.info would/should have that daya?
 26 2012-08-04 00:13:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: yeah
 27 2012-08-04 00:13:17 <BlueMatt> data
 28 2012-08-04 00:13:46 <BlueMatt> sipa: afaik (and I dont know much here) satoshi never really did, but then he didnt have the user count we do today
 29 2012-08-04 00:14:36 <sipa> he must have realized that re-enabling those opcodes would be a backward-incompatible update
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 32 2012-08-04 00:20:58 <BlueMatt> Im sure he did, but Im sure he didnt care too much
 33 2012-08-04 00:21:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, Im running about 100 verifies/sec including  block/tx verification connection, etc
 34 2012-08-04 00:21:37 <sipa> yeah, that's what i mean; i'm sure he realized it, but didn't consider it a problem to do some backward-incompatible update at some point in the future
 35 2012-08-04 00:21:53 <BlueMatt> yep
 36 2012-08-04 00:22:09 <BlueMatt> god...100/sec its gonna take days to get the chain on tmpfs
 37 2012-08-04 00:23:07 <BlueMatt> well, bitcoinj now has a full scripting engine, its just entirely worthless
 38 2012-08-04 00:25:23 minimoose has joined
 39 2012-08-04 00:25:47 <sipa> well, i suppose you can disable sig checking by default
 40 2012-08-04 00:26:08 <sipa> although that makes it a non-full-node again
 41 2012-08-04 00:26:29 <sipa> how about trying to write the cpu-intensive parts in C, and link to it using JNI?
 42 2012-08-04 00:26:38 <BlueMatt> yea, ofc all the full-node stuff is disabled by default
 43 2012-08-04 00:26:53 <BlueMatt> yea, Im considering looking into just importing openssl and making it do sig checking
 44 2012-08-04 00:27:16 <BlueMatt> (nearly all of the cpu usage when I looked earlier was in various ecdsa stuff)
 45 2012-08-04 00:27:45 <sipa> i can imagine
 46 2012-08-04 00:28:19 <BlueMatt> well all that means is I (surprising as it is) didnt do anything incredulously stupid somewhere
 47 2012-08-04 00:29:24 <BlueMatt> though, honestly, Im kinda surprised the jvm cant jit compile a few of the BigInteger methods and get decent performace
 48 2012-08-04 00:29:37 <BlueMatt> for small, tight methods like that you'd think it could do ok
 49 2012-08-04 00:30:06 <sipa> well, it's all dynamic memory
 50 2012-08-04 00:31:02 <BlueMatt> yea...
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 52 2012-08-04 00:35:00 <sipa> i suppose that manages to interrupts any tight loop badly
 53 2012-08-04 00:35:04 <sipa> -s
 54 2012-08-04 00:35:54 <BlueMatt> I would have thought it could do it better, but apparently, yea...could also be the ecdsa lib in use is really inefficient
 55 2012-08-04 00:36:42 <sipa> i suppose it could use pre-allocated int or long integer arrays, and do everything without dynamic allocation
 56 2012-08-04 00:37:06 <phantomcircuit> dynamic allocation in a tight loop?
 57 2012-08-04 00:37:07 <sipa> not too easy to write, but quite certainly you'd get some decent performance out of that
 58 2012-08-04 00:37:08 <phantomcircuit> bad news
 59 2012-08-04 00:37:25 <BlueMatt> yea, that would be a hellova ugly program
 60 2012-08-04 00:37:31 <sipa> oh hell yes
 61 2012-08-04 00:37:56 <sipa> i suppose you'd even want some kind of compiler to write it for you, or at least a macro processor
 62 2012-08-04 00:38:25 <BlueMatt> heh, while we're at it, lets compile the java to c
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 64 2012-08-04 00:38:31 <BlueMatt> save me some headache
 65 2012-08-04 00:39:29 <sipa> haha
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 79 2012-08-04 01:36:01 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: 100/sec?  time for threading :)
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 81 2012-08-04 01:39:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: that is threaded
 82 2012-08-04 01:40:19 <BlueMatt> to be fair, its running ~150/sec now that its a bit later in the chain and the sig:block verification cost ratio have changed a bit
 83 2012-08-04 01:40:40 <BlueMatt> still slower than molasses this one
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 91 2012-08-04 01:55:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: haha -- I did think about compiling python to C
 92 2012-08-04 01:55:40 <jgarzik> or to LLVM bitcode
 93 2012-08-04 01:57:22 <BlueMatt> there we go
 94 2012-08-04 01:57:25 <BlueMatt> does llvm do java?
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 96 2012-08-04 01:59:22 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yep
 97 2012-08-04 01:59:26 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: "partial support"
 98 2012-08-04 01:59:38 <BlueMatt> there we go
 99 2012-08-04 02:00:48 <BlueMatt> anyone have a link to a multisig tx on bbe that has >1 sig?
100 2012-08-04 02:04:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: This is what you need :)   https://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/java/trunk/docs/java-frontend.txt   "The Java frontend translates Java bytecode (.class files) into LLVM bytecode."
101 2012-08-04 02:06:30 <BlueMatt> wow, that + lto may actually be worth something here...
102 2012-08-04 02:06:59 <BlueMatt> I may have to look into that after I get these damn corner-case test-cases done and get jenkins back up and...
103 2012-08-04 02:08:32 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: static compilation of java is always fun
104 2012-08-04 02:09:13 bitllc has joined
105 2012-08-04 02:09:16 * jgarzik worked for a firm that produced "TowerJ", at the time the fastest Java in the world.  It did a ton of static analysis, then translated to C.
106 2012-08-04 02:10:41 <BlueMatt> heh, nice
107 2012-08-04 02:10:52 <Diablo-D3> hah
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111 2012-08-04 02:16:11 <BlueMatt> hmm...well to write a proper test-case for FindAndDelete I need a valid sig that happens to be preceded by its own size...
112 2012-08-04 02:16:23 <BlueMatt> hows that for a specific request?
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115 2012-08-04 02:33:32 * jgarzik wonders if he's stumbled upon gmaxwell's choke-a-horse blocks at height 4033 on testnet3
116 2012-08-04 02:33:47 <Diablo-D3> lol
117 2012-08-04 02:39:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: 4033 isn't _that_ bad.
118 2012-08-04 02:39:47 <gmaxwell> 4033     "size" : 389681,
119 2012-08-04 02:39:54 <gmaxwell> the horse pill is 4110:
120 2012-08-04 02:39:55 <gmaxwell> 4110     "size" : 999238,
121 2012-08-04 02:40:42 <Diablo-D3> "doc, how am I supposed to swallow that, its huge!" "you don't swallow it."
122 2012-08-04 02:41:00 * jgarzik appears to be spinning on 95ea61f319ed0d2b28e94cb0164396b4024bc6ad624fcb492c5c87a088592e81 for quite a while
123 2012-08-04 02:41:13 <gmaxwell> "You chew it. ... What? Why are you looking at me like that?"
124 2012-08-04 02:42:13 <gmaxwell> well, I'd look at it and tell you something about it... except I don't know how many zeros go on the front...
125 2012-08-04 02:42:19 * luke-jr is finding a lot of people don't want to file Issues because it requires registering on GitHub :|
126 2012-08-04 02:42:36 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: s/ on GitHub//
127 2012-08-04 02:42:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: not all bug trackers require registration
128 2012-08-04 02:43:11 <BlueMatt> define "a lot"
129 2012-08-04 02:43:14 <gmaxwell> 'omg I have to register is a problem for anything that does'.. the debian stuff doesn't but then it's 'omg I have to send email.
130 2012-08-04 02:43:15 <jgarzik> <BlockChain.info's piuk> Hi Dusty, I currently have no plans to add Testnet support the site is aimed more at end users rather than developers. Blockexplorer.com has good support for testnet.
131 2012-08-04 02:43:17 <jgarzik> sigh
132 2012-08-04 02:43:20 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: pretty much anyone using BFGMiner :P
133 2012-08-04 02:43:46 <luke-jr> jgarzik: *2
134 2012-08-04 02:43:49 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ...
135 2012-08-04 02:43:56 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Well, one more site that I can tell people not to use.
136 2012-08-04 02:44:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: his My Wallet make incompatible priv keys IIRC too
137 2012-08-04 02:44:10 <jgarzik> can anybody dump testnet3 TX 95ea61f319ed0d2b28e94cb0164396b4024bc6ad624fcb492c5c87a088592e81 to JSON for me?
138 2012-08-04 02:44:10 <luke-jr> makes*
139 2012-08-04 02:44:13 <jgarzik> still chewing on it
140 2012-08-04 02:44:30 <jgarzik> wait, I think bitcoind can do it now, right?
141 2012-08-04 02:44:33 <luke-jr> jgarzik: you don't want to use blockchain.info for looking at tx anyway - they really mess it up sometimes
142 2012-08-04 02:44:38 <jgarzik> including scripts, I mean
143 2012-08-04 02:44:41 <gmaxwell> hahah
144 2012-08-04 02:45:37 <gmaxwell> getrawtransaction 95ea61f319ed0d2b28e94cb0164396b4024bc6ad624fcb492c5c87a088592e81 | wc -c
145 2012-08-04 02:45:40 <gmaxwell> 778813
146 2012-08-04 02:46:02 <gmaxwell> 400k transaction. :)
147 2012-08-04 02:46:14 <luke-jr> O.O
148 2012-08-04 02:46:42 <jgarzik> bash: /spare/repo/bitcoin/src/bitcoind: Argument list too long
149 2012-08-04 02:46:44 <jgarzik> SIGH
150 2012-08-04 02:47:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no freaking wonder ;-)  This is taking pynode several minutes to chew on
151 2012-08-04 02:47:16 <gmaxwell> the json is 2.6 mbytes.
152 2012-08-04 02:47:26 <jgarzik> excellent test, though
153 2012-08-04 02:47:35 <jgarzik> proves you need to verf this stuff in another thread
154 2012-08-04 02:47:52 PhantomSpark has joined
155 2012-08-04 02:48:49 <jgarzik> probably giving python's deepcopy a heart attack
156 2012-08-04 02:49:00 <gmaxwell> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/bigtxn.txt.xz
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158 2012-08-04 02:49:42 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
159 2012-08-04 02:50:23 <gmaxwell> It has 3387 inputs and 100 outputs.
160 2012-08-04 02:51:04 <jgarzik> heh, I think that's 3387 deepcopies
161 2012-08-04 02:51:23 <luke-jr> is that really that much? O.o
162 2012-08-04 02:51:49 <gmaxwell> Welp thats why I put stuff like that in the testnet chain. Better to blow up on that then when someone puts something like it in the real chain.
163 2012-08-04 02:52:08 <BlueMatt> shhh
164 2012-08-04 02:52:08 <gmaxwell> I was kinda bummed that I couldn't find anything that broke bitcoind through sheer bloatyness.
165 2012-08-04 02:52:22 <gmaxwell> though it's pretty slow on some of these blocks.
166 2012-08-04 02:53:15 * jgarzik restarts, with time(1)
167 2012-08-04 03:01:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: fetched url, incase you want to delete
168 2012-08-04 03:01:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: tnx
169 2012-08-04 03:04:30 <jgarzik> ...still processing that tx...
170 2012-08-04 03:04:48 <jgarzik> let's race, pynode vs. bitcoinj
171 2012-08-04 03:05:01 <Diablo-D3> bah
172 2012-08-04 03:05:25 <jgarzik> I bet if I used pure-python pkg python-ecdsa, it would be slower
173 2012-08-04 03:05:28 <luke-jr> vs /Snoopy:0.1/ETH Zurich/PlanetLab/
174 2012-08-04 03:05:58 <luke-jr> jgarzik: btw, why don't i see pynode on the client list yet? ;)
175 2012-08-04 03:06:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr: because it does nothing and is not yet verified functional
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177 2012-08-04 03:08:33 <jgarzik> I missed TX processing finish
178 2012-08-04 03:08:47 <jgarzik> time(1) says choke-a-horse TX took <= 15 minutes
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184 2012-08-04 03:19:16 <jgarzik> yeah, this stupid thing is spending all its time in deepcopy, not ecdsa or sha256
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187 2012-08-04 03:25:29 <jgarzik> har!  googling yields the following advice:  pickle+unpickle is faster than deepcopy
188 2012-08-04 03:25:56 <gmaxwell> ugh.
189 2012-08-04 03:29:47 <Diablo-D3> and I believe it
190 2012-08-04 03:30:01 <Diablo-D3> python is that shitty
191 2012-08-04 03:30:07 <luke-jr> >_<
192 2012-08-04 03:30:38 <jgarzik> deepcopy apparently "must" be slow, in order to deal with all sorts of complex, cyclic data structures that pickle cannot handle
193 2012-08-04 03:31:18 <jgarzik> however, if you don't need the complexity, cPickle's pickle+unpickle is faster, it sounds like.
194 2012-08-04 03:33:03 <jgarzik> the big dogs:
195 2012-08-04 03:33:05 <jgarzik> Scanned 942 tx, height 4033 (0 failures), 847.59 sec
196 2012-08-04 03:33:05 <jgarzik> Scanned 943 tx, height 4087 (0 failures), 21.49 sec
197 2012-08-04 03:33:05 <jgarzik> Scanned 3529 tx, height 4110 (0 failures), 8.13 sec
198 2012-08-04 03:33:05 <jgarzik> Scanned 10857 tx, height 4145 (0 failures), 30.83 sec
199 2012-08-04 03:33:05 <jgarzik> Scanned 10858 tx, height 4181 (0 failures), 18.73 sec
200 2012-08-04 03:33:07 maaku has joined
201 2012-08-04 03:33:46 <jgarzik> pynode now validates all of mainnet and testnet3, save for these testnet3 tx's:
202 2012-08-04 03:33:48 <jgarzik>   0x9aa3a5a6d9b7d1ac9555be8e42596d06686cc5f76d259b06c560a207d310d5f5L : True,
203 2012-08-04 03:33:48 <jgarzik>   0xc5d4b73af6eed28798473b05d2b227edd4f285069629843e899b52c2d1c165b7L : True,
204 2012-08-04 03:33:49 <jgarzik>   0xe335562f7e297aadeed88e5954bc4eeb8dc00b31d829eedb232e39d672b0c009L : True,
205 2012-08-04 03:33:49 <jgarzik>   0x74ea059a63c7ebddaee6805e1560b15c937d99a9ee9745412cbc6d2a0a5f5305L : True,
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210 2012-08-04 03:42:47 <jgarzik> hmmm.  with signature cache...  that means that miners who publish neverseen transactions are at a disadvantage.  Their blocks will be slower to verify, as their TX's will not be in the signature cache.
211 2012-08-04 03:43:27 <jgarzik> (which is just fine... not saying there is anything wrong with that)
212 2012-08-04 03:45:19 <luke-jr> jgarzik: no, it isn't just fine. :p
213 2012-08-04 03:45:28 <luke-jr> but it's not the root problem either
214 2012-08-04 03:45:47 <luke-jr> so long as transaction download/verification doesn't hold up relaying, none of that matters much
215 2012-08-04 03:46:12 <gmaxwell> it's most likely a fairly small bias in any case.
216 2012-08-04 03:46:23 osmosis has joined
217 2012-08-04 03:47:33 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: probably nodes should prefer to relay to other nodes they know have bigger pipes too, IMO
218 2012-08-04 03:48:48 <gmaxwell> this really only matters for the first hop or two, beyond that the fanout is enormous.
219 2012-08-04 03:49:02 <jgarzik> random datum:  pynode should be 100% endian-safe for all platforms, BE or LE, 32- or 64-bit
220 2012-08-04 03:52:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: where is the current pynode code, I'll try it on BE right now.
221 2012-08-04 03:52:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode
222 2012-08-04 03:55:03 <luke-jr> too bad we don't have a proper GUI abstraction in place so we can use Bitcoin-Qt with pynode :P
223 2012-08-04 03:55:29 Gladamas has joined
224 2012-08-04 03:55:48 <jgarzik> Example mainnet and testnet3 configuration files (simple key=value text files): https://gist.github.com/3254183
225 2012-08-04 03:56:46 <jgarzik> README contains useful details
226 2012-08-04 03:57:51 <gmaxwell> :-/
227 2012-08-04 03:57:51 <gmaxwell>     from Crypto.Hash import SHA256, RIPEMD160
228 2012-08-04 03:57:51 <gmaxwell> ImportError: cannot import name RIPEMD160
229 2012-08-04 03:59:19 <jgarzik> python-crypto-2.3-6.fc16.x86_64 here has it
230 2012-08-04 03:59:57 <jgarzik> rpm -qi says upstream is http://www.pycrypto.org/
231 2012-08-04 04:00:32 <gmaxwell> sadly not so in debian unstable, which is what my resident BE linux box is blighted with.
232 2012-08-04 04:03:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: how does python behave with this input?    import hashlib ; h = hashlib.new('ripemd160')
233 2012-08-04 04:03:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: should puke a ValueError if 'ripemd160' is not known
234 2012-08-04 04:03:51 <gmaxwell> In [1]: import hashlib ; h = hashlib.new('ripemd160')
235 2012-08-04 04:03:51 <gmaxwell> In [2]: h
236 2012-08-04 04:03:51 <gmaxwell> Out[2]: <ripemd160 HASH object @ 0x10a9a318>
237 2012-08-04 04:05:47 <gmaxwell> Not the result I expected.
238 2012-08-04 04:07:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: something like this patch should get you past that: https://gist.github.com/3254322
239 2012-08-04 04:08:00 Shaded_ has joined
240 2012-08-04 04:08:09 <jgarzik> (might be whitespace mangled)
241 2012-08-04 04:08:15 <gmaxwell> yup
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244 2012-08-04 04:09:58 <gmaxwell> connecting to 127.0.0.1 even though something else is specified
245 2012-08-04 04:10:39 <gmaxwell> oh just whitespace in the config
246 2012-08-04 04:11:03 <jgarzik> yeah the config parser is pretty dumb
247 2012-08-04 04:11:18 <gmaxwell> is there a way to make this verbose? how do I know that its working?
248 2012-08-04 04:12:00 <gmaxwell> well.. blocks.dat is growing slowly
249 2012-08-04 04:12:35 <gmaxwell> up to block 30k on mainnet.
250 2012-08-04 04:12:43 <gmaxwell> So yep, works on BE Linux.
251 2012-08-04 04:16:23 <gmaxwell> Is this thing validating signatures? its faster than I expected.
252 2012-08-04 04:16:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: there is a debug log, log=FILE in config
253 2012-08-04 04:16:41 <gmaxwell> Yea, I found it.
254 2012-08-04 04:16:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: set debugnet=True in node.py for per-message extra verbosity
255 2012-08-04 04:16:56 <gmaxwell> up to 114000.
256 2012-08-04 04:17:52 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no, not verifying signatures.  That's what testscript.py does: loops through existing database, verifying each sig.  Code exists, but is not yet hooked up to node.py's blockchain database
257 2012-08-04 04:18:48 <jgarzik> just got through proving the signature stuff worked in unit testing mere hours ago ;)
258 2012-08-04 04:19:14 <jgarzik> kudos to ArtForz for writing endian-correct serialization code
259 2012-08-04 04:22:29 <jgarzik> http://docs.python.org/library/hashlib.html specifically uses ripemd160 as an example, accompanied by the text "Using new() with an algorithm provided by OpenSSL"
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267 2012-08-04 04:49:31 <Shaded> Can anyone help me to compile the vanitygen on Mac?
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270 2012-08-04 05:00:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hmm.. seems to be stuck at 187654
271 2012-08-04 05:01:54 <gmaxwell> ah
272 2012-08-04 05:01:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: gdbm fatal: write error
273 2012-08-04 05:01:59 <gmaxwell> -rw-r--r-- 1 gmaxwell gmaxwell 2.0G Aug  4 04:55 blocks.dat
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281 2012-08-04 05:20:46 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hum.  must have hit a 32-bit signed limit inside gdbm.
282 2012-08-04 05:21:35 <gmaxwell> PPC64 here, but the python binary is 32bit.
283 2012-08-04 05:22:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: even a 32bit binary should be able to do large files
284 2012-08-04 05:22:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: probably a compile flag screwup, building gdbm
285 2012-08-04 05:24:22 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: even so, you could try dbck.py, which iterates through height, hash-checking each block found.  if that does not bomb out, testscript.py will perform the same iteration, but checking scripts
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422 2012-08-04 17:03:16 <abracadabra> meh
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426 2012-08-04 17:07:01 <acemeister> hey
427 2012-08-04 17:07:58 <acemeister> When I install the latest bitcoin client and try to run it says "Error Loading blkindex.dat" how do I install and open a functional client/
428 2012-08-04 17:12:47 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
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431 2012-08-04 17:14:17 <weex> acemeister: what platform you running on, uprading from what version?
432 2012-08-04 17:15:53 <acemeister> im running vista
433 2012-08-04 17:16:03 <acemeister> and im not upgrading im just trying to install the client fresh
434 2012-08-04 17:19:00 <weex> check out https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54718.0
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439 2012-08-04 17:24:49 <OneEyed> Will the miners (or at least some of them) include transactions with non-standard scripts?
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443 2012-08-04 17:47:34 <amiller> okay so like
444 2012-08-04 17:47:42 <amiller> my little difficulty gain thing needs to be a bit asymmetric
445 2012-08-04 17:48:02 <amiller> if you place down a block with zero runners-up, then the difficulty should be decreased by multiplying it by a gain
446 2012-08-04 17:48:11 <amiller> that way it converges exponentially if the difficulty is too hard and it takes too long to find blocks
447 2012-08-04 17:48:42 <amiller> on the other hand if you place a block with 10 stale annotations, you should increase the difficulty by multiplying it by 10*gain
448 2012-08-04 17:48:52 <amiller> rather than gain^10 like i had thought
449 2012-08-04 17:49:41 <amiller> it has the same stationary point because a block with one stale annotation will leave the difficulty unchanged
450 2012-08-04 17:50:42 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
451 2012-08-04 17:50:54 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
452 2012-08-04 17:51:19 <OneEyed> In https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG, why in the example does the *input* use OP_CHECKSIG (in addition to the outputs)?
453 2012-08-04 17:52:07 maaku has joined
454 2012-08-04 17:53:13 <amiller> er clearly multiplying by 10*gain isn't right... what do i mean here
455 2012-08-04 17:53:24 <OneEyed> This is a typo, it looks like the "output 1" script has been copied into the input
456 2012-08-04 17:54:09 <amiller> 1 + 1/(x-1) or something or something maybe
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461 2012-08-04 18:21:14 <OneEyed> I've fixed the wiki page
462 2012-08-04 18:23:24 Turingi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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465 2012-08-04 18:26:11 <weex> i've updated the main page description of bitcoin to the one from bitcoin.org, it's hart to see how being created in 2009 and by satoshi nakamoto are the most important pieces of info a new user should learn about Bitcoin
466 2012-08-04 18:26:31 <weex> plus presumably people are ok with the bitcoin.org one
467 2012-08-04 18:29:28 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
468 2012-08-04 18:30:06 <OneEyed> weex: which page?
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470 2012-08-04 18:32:33 <weex> OneEyed: the main page
471 2012-08-04 18:32:35 <weex> on the wiki
472 2012-08-04 18:32:52 <OneEyed> weex: I see no change today…
473 2012-08-04 18:32:58 <OneEyed> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=history
474 2012-08-04 18:33:15 <weex> yeah, well you have to do some hunting to find that actual text
475 2012-08-04 18:33:22 <weex> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Template:MainPage_Intro
476 2012-08-04 18:33:32 <weex> the main page links other pages in
477 2012-08-04 18:33:57 <OneEyed> Oh, ok, it includes others :)
478 2012-08-04 18:34:39 <weex> probably helps to cut down on abuse that there's no direct link to edit that text
479 2012-08-04 18:35:10 <OneEyed> Looks fine indeed
480 2012-08-04 18:36:44 <weex> i'm going through the wiki and making some text cleanups, not moving anything as i have no desire to get into larger structure
481 2012-08-04 18:36:58 <weex> it's just that new users will find some odd text in there in places
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490 2012-08-04 18:59:20 <acemeister> I tried what you reccomended and then attempted to open bitcoin it said "A fatal error has occured bitcoin can no longer continue and will quit"
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492 2012-08-04 19:02:21 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
493 2012-08-04 19:02:31 <weex> can you create a file in the listed appdata directory with your user?
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498 2012-08-04 19:09:57 <weex> question: should the wiki be making commentary on governmental monetary policy?
499 2012-08-04 19:10:32 Diablo-D3 has joined
500 2012-08-04 19:11:31 <copumpkin> I'd say no, but I'm nobody
501 2012-08-04 19:13:15 <weex> aww c'mon, pseudonymous currency got you down?
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536 2012-08-04 20:16:20 <acemeister> Hey
537 2012-08-04 20:16:32 <acemeister> When I install the latest bitcoin client and try to run it says "Error Loading blkindex.dat" how do I install and open a functional client/
538 2012-08-04 20:16:45 <acemeister> im running from vista and not upgrading im trying to install the client fresh
539 2012-08-04 20:17:11 <acemeister> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54718.0 < - i followed the instructions here and it says to delete everything but wallet.dat then try to fire it up
540 2012-08-04 20:17:44 <acemeister> I did this and tried to run the client and got an error message saying to open bitcoin it said "A fatal error has occured bitcoin can no longer continue and will quit"
541 2012-08-04 20:18:03 <acemeister> any help is appreciated?
542 2012-08-04 20:19:25 Joric has joined
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544 2012-08-04 20:20:42 <weex> acemeister: can you create a file in the listed appdata directory with your user?
545 2012-08-04 20:21:45 Mad7Scientist has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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547 2012-08-04 20:22:04 <weex> if you've receivsd no coins at that wallet or not given out any addresses from it, you can delete that listed appdata folder entirely
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554 2012-08-04 20:33:05 <BTCTrader> are there any bitcoin php developers around?
555 2012-08-04 20:35:04 <upb> yes, phptux is
556 2012-08-04 20:35:15 <upb> php can do anything (tm)
557 2012-08-04 20:36:41 <acemeister> yeah i can create i file
558 2012-08-04 20:36:51 <acemeister> i deleted the folder entirely
559 2012-08-04 20:36:59 <acemeister> even teh wallet. dat i should delete right weex?
560 2012-08-04 20:37:06 <acemeister> then try to run it
561 2012-08-04 20:37:07 <acemeister> ?
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563 2012-08-04 20:37:58 <weex> acemeister: yes if you have taken the precautions mentioned above
564 2012-08-04 20:38:35 <weex> BTCTrader: what do you need?
565 2012-08-04 20:38:44 <acemeister> what file should i create weex?
566 2012-08-04 20:38:59 <acemeister> to get it running on vista
567 2012-08-04 20:39:14 <acemeister> fuck it ill just try another wallet whats a good wallet besides bitcoin qt
568 2012-08-04 20:39:15 <acemeister> ?
569 2012-08-04 20:39:28 <weex> blockchain.info
570 2012-08-04 20:39:45 <luke-jr> acemeister: Electrum
571 2012-08-04 20:41:42 <BlueMatt> woo 170 sigs/sec when I actually leave my cpu alone and get into later blocks
572 2012-08-04 20:41:52 <BlueMatt> oh...wait, that still sucks
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580 2012-08-04 21:14:43 <acemeister> is electrum just as good as bitcoin qt?
581 2012-08-04 21:19:07 <luke-jr> no
582 2012-08-04 21:19:12 <luke-jr> it's better in some ways, worse in others
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606 2012-08-04 22:23:26 <amiller> what's the current stale block rate, does anyone know
607 2012-08-04 22:23:33 <amiller> i guess i can probably check blockchain.info for an estimate
608 2012-08-04 22:24:20 <amiller> http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks sipa does this definition of orphan blocks disagree with what you told me yesterday?
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613 2012-08-04 22:30:35 <luke-jr> amiller: sipa tends to use a different definition of orphan blocks than most others
614 2012-08-04 22:30:58 <luke-jr> mainly because the common definition doesn't fit logically with the word orphan
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616 2012-08-04 22:34:46 <gmaxwell> Sipa's right, of course, but .. meh. hard to go against the established language.
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619 2012-08-04 22:36:13 <luke-jr> yeah
620 2012-08-04 22:36:52 <luke-jr> maybe it'd go over easier if there was an alternative term for competing blocks that lost to another at the same height
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628 2012-08-04 22:48:34 <poop_> can anyone help me out with a listsinceblock issue I'm having? I'm using listsinceblock to keep track of transactions relevant to me throughout the blockchain. Sometimes, unexplained repeats show up, and I have no idea why: http://pastebin.com/b4xznhBt
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633 2012-08-04 23:01:40 <gmaxwell> poop_: the first one is unconfirmed.
634 2012-08-04 23:01:40 <gmaxwell> It's not in a block at all.
635 2012-08-04 23:01:40 <gmaxwell> You should be ignoring those.
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637 2012-08-04 23:01:40 <gmaxwell> throw a 1 on the end to keep them out, I guess.
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648 2012-08-04 23:08:17 <poop_> gmaxwell: if that was the case, why don't any more beyond that one show up o_O
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650 2012-08-04 23:10:55 <amiller> hey this idea is changing around a little bit still
651 2012-08-04 23:10:55 <amiller> the problem with my difficulty adjustment scheme is that it still isn't partition tolerant
652 2012-08-04 23:10:55 <amiller> the reason why is that if there's a partition into 33% and 33% and still a 33% attacker
653 2012-08-04 23:10:55 <amiller> the two honest groups will eventually converge to a smaller difficulty
654 2012-08-04 23:10:55 <amiller> if the partition is resolved, they'd still waste a lot of their work
655 2012-08-04 23:10:55 <amiller> unless there's a way that including the dead blocks also counts towards the difficulty score
656 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <amiller> what i'd want to happen is that if there's a partition into 33% and 33%, and suddenly the partition is resolved, then half of them should roll back but the resulting chain should now be really strong
657 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <gmaxwell> well, it will _evenutally_ be really strong, if they keep building on it.
658 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <amiller> if the partition is resolve forever
659 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <amiller> i'm in space bitcoin mode now
660 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <gmaxwell> I know you are.
661 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <gmaxwell> oh _space_ as in outer space? rather than dreamland bitcoin? Okay.
662 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <amiller> mining colony on the dark side of the moon
663 2012-08-04 23:13:09 <amiller> anyway
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665 2012-08-04 23:15:27 <amiller> so i'm proposing now that we include dead blocks in the blockchain as annotations, but also count them at face value for their proofs of work
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671 2012-08-04 23:17:41 <amiller> i guess that's ddosable then because an attacker could simulate being a bunch of fragmented little islands that have tons of low difficulty blocks
672 2012-08-04 23:20:01 <amiller> and it would be cumbersome to account for them all
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674 2012-08-04 23:22:15 <amiller> if the network is shattered into lots of tiny fragments and they keep following the protocol then they're still _doing_ work and producing proofs of work so ideally their total work should still be reflected in whichever fork is chosen
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676 2012-08-04 23:22:15 <gmaxwell> amiller: you could also make it so that all not conflicting transactions must be included in order to include the stubs.
677 2012-08-04 23:22:15 <amiller> yeah
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680 2012-08-04 23:26:49 <gmaxwell> amiller: also creates an economic incentive to try to heal forks beyond the basic system-works-good ones.
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682 2012-08-04 23:26:49 <amiller> if storage was irrelevant, then if you really didn't want to waste _any_ work you would include every hash ever
683 2012-08-04 23:26:49 <amiller> you'd get the full view of how much work was done
684 2012-08-04 23:26:49 <amiller> everything else is just about sampling from the total work
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686 2012-08-04 23:31:25 <amiller> so if you're a big fork and you want to eat up a smaller fork, you should skip all the small values and eat the high value ones
687 2012-08-04 23:36:33 <amiller> at the same time, lots of medium value ones are a more reliable sample than a single high value
688 2012-08-04 23:37:07 <amiller> so there's a tradeoff between storage and sensitivity but that may be manageable
689 2012-08-04 23:37:51 <amiller> this is tricky
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691 2012-08-04 23:48:46 <amiller> so the 33% mining colony on halley's comet passes by and drops off a log of all their data, sorted proof-of-work first
692 2012-08-04 23:49:13 <amiller> we immediately gobble up the proofs of work to get the benefit of their computation
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694 2012-08-04 23:49:29 <amiller> later we gradually commit their transactions
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