1 2012-08-06 00:00:53 <Joric> the flight itself took just about 8 months not so long after all
   2 2012-08-06 00:01:10 <amiller> okay so
   3 2012-08-06 00:01:15 <amiller> imagine we keep a merkle tree of the blockchain itself
   4 2012-08-06 00:01:28 <amiller> it doesn't have to be the fancy balancing kind, it can be just the kind where you add to the end and create a new head node when you pass 2^x
   5 2012-08-06 00:01:49 <amiller> you'd be able to efficiently estimate the size of an arbitrary sized fork
   6 2012-08-06 00:01:58 <amiller> if the fork is truly bigger, you will have to iterate through it all to validate it
   7 2012-08-06 00:02:52 <amiller> but if it's actually smaller, you'd get a better estimate of size as you went from the top of the tree down counting
   8 2012-08-06 00:03:25 <amiller> you still have to check a linear amount of work, which isn't any worse
   9 2012-08-06 00:04:17 <amiller> it gets much better when you use a skip list based on the number of zero bits in the hash, such that the most impressive work is to the top
  10 2012-08-06 00:04:35 <gmaxwell> amiller: I fear you are counting angels on the heads of pins.
  11 2012-08-06 00:04:58 <amiller> not so: from a single high-value hash, you can estimate of the total work
  12 2012-08-06 00:05:01 <amiller> it's not a very precise estimate
  13 2012-08-06 00:05:09 <amiller> as you go down, you get an increasingly better estimate
  14 2012-08-06 00:05:14 <amiller> if it's actually work-deficient, you'll find out quickly
  15 2012-08-06 00:05:15 <gmaxwell> amiller: even doing thousands of sha256 operations is totally trivial... and if you have competing forks thousands of blocks long something is very wrong.
  16 2012-08-06 00:05:54 <gmaxwell> a random cheap desktop CPU can run sha256 several million times per second.
  17 2012-08-06 00:06:47 <amiller> it's better for widespread adoption if there is a straightforward rule for how to cope with edge cases, even extremely rare ones
  18 2012-08-06 00:07:16 <amiller> it will be nice if what to do in the case of thousands of blocks long is at least defined
  19 2012-08-06 00:07:26 <gmaxwell> amiller: Just do the linear time check.
  20 2012-08-06 00:07:29 <gmaxwell> It's already defined.
  21 2012-08-06 00:07:32 <amiller> right
  22 2012-08-06 00:08:02 <amiller> so you can do it faster than linear with a skip list
  23 2012-08-06 00:08:34 <amiller> if you store links going backwards to the most recent interesting hashes at each level of rarity
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  48 2012-08-06 01:09:44 <gmaxwell> https://gitorious.org/electrum/server/blobs/master/patches/bitcoin-0.6.2.diff Wtf is the electrum server patch doing to createnewblock?!
  49 2012-08-06 01:10:29 <copumpkin> luke-jr: any luck with those mac builds, btw?
  50 2012-08-06 01:10:49 <luke-jr> copumpkin: some! but nothing usable resulting yet
  51 2012-08-06 01:10:53 <copumpkin> ah, okay
  52 2012-08-06 01:11:01 * copumpkin just wants a coincontrol mac build :D
  53 2012-08-06 01:11:13 <copumpkin> got too many nefarious things to do to not be able to control my sources
  54 2012-08-06 01:11:21 * copumpkin rubs his hands in evil glee
  55 2012-08-06 01:11:32 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  56 2012-08-06 01:11:38 <copumpkin> (of the sort only a follower of steve jobs could muster)
  57 2012-08-06 01:11:53 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: don't do it. Make him go maintain it if he wants it!
  58 2012-08-06 01:11:58 <copumpkin> lol
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  66 2012-08-06 01:27:41 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, he did donate quite a bit toward it..
  67 2012-08-06 01:28:01 <luke-jr> oh, the coincontrol bit..
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  69 2012-08-06 01:31:53 <copumpkin> it's really not that big of a priority, but I would like to get that option at some point
  70 2012-08-06 01:32:07 <copumpkin> my main annoyance right now is that nanotube added bitcoin auth to gribble
  71 2012-08-06 01:32:16 <copumpkin> so I made an address as my auth address, never intending to use it
  72 2012-08-06 01:32:40 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: so never use it.
  73 2012-08-06 01:32:42 <copumpkin> then imsaguy went and send me some coin to that address, just to be an asshole, and now I have no way of preventing the coins from that address from getting mixed in with the rest
  74 2012-08-06 01:32:49 <gmaxwell> ah.
  75 2012-08-06 01:32:56 <copumpkin> I did some acrobatics to get rid of the coin in it
  76 2012-08-06 01:32:59 <copumpkin> but anyone could do that at any point
  77 2012-08-06 01:33:10 <copumpkin> and as pious and honest as I am
  78 2012-08-06 01:33:25 <copumpkin> I'd really prefer people not being able to associate my gribble identity with actual transactions on the blockchain
  79 2012-08-06 01:33:28 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: sounds like you want this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1637
  80 2012-08-06 01:33:47 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: perhaps you could pay luke to write it, it would be excellent to have on 0.7. :)
  81 2012-08-06 01:33:50 <Joric> 'send me some coin to that address' oh thats just mean
  82 2012-08-06 01:34:05 <copumpkin> I thought luke-jr was ideologically opposed to that kind of feature
  83 2012-08-06 01:34:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: interesting. looks like they take all transactions, then?
  84 2012-08-06 01:35:09 <Joric> a whole 0.92 btc
  85 2012-08-06 01:35:18 <copumpkin> Joric: yeah
  86 2012-08-06 01:35:55 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: freezing inputs isn't necessarily important, either, as long as I can keep it distinct from the rest of my inputs in transactions
  87 2012-08-06 01:36:22 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: freezing that would accomplish that. When you want to spend it you'd unfreeze it and spend it manually.
  88 2012-08-06 01:36:27 <copumpkin> fair enough
  89 2012-08-06 01:36:44 <Joric> copumpkin, i wrote that verification code for gribble :D well, mostly compressed keys support
  90 2012-08-06 01:36:51 <copumpkin> oh, cool
  91 2012-08-06 01:37:14 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: how likely is the coincontrol stuff to make it into mainline?
  92 2012-08-06 01:40:35 <nanotube> (and who do we pay off to do that and how much would they want? :) )
  93 2012-08-06 01:41:34 <copumpkin> I'd certainly be willing to contribute to a bounty to get source control features in
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  95 2012-08-06 01:44:18 <luke-jr> copumpkin: as of right now, there is zero chance of Coin Control getting into mainline
  96 2012-08-06 01:44:20 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: Zero at the moment.
  97 2012-08-06 01:44:28 <luke-jr> to change that, a human has to step up to clean it up
  98 2012-08-06 01:44:48 <gmaxwell> I think even the ship has sailed on that.
  99 2012-08-06 01:44:52 <copumpkin> boo
 100 2012-08-06 01:45:34 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: well, there's always 0.8
 101 2012-08-06 01:45:46 <gmaxwell> rawtxn basically replaces coincontrol or at least will with a couple extra features. So I think at this point we'd instead want the couple features and a GUI to it instead.
 102 2012-08-06 01:46:02 <luke-jr> GUI for rawtxn is IMO the same thing as coincontrol cleaned up
 103 2012-08-06 01:46:12 <gmaxwell> Okay, we're on basically the same page then.
 104 2012-08-06 01:47:28 <gmaxwell> Right now rawtxn is missing the ability to freeze inputs/addresses; and the ability to filter listunspent by addresses;  and the address group part which I have a pull request on, and will pull once I figure out if listunspent should change or it.
 105 2012-08-06 01:47:35 <gmaxwell> And then, missing a GUI, of course.
 106 2012-08-06 01:47:53 <copumpkin> so who do we bribe to get that done?
 107 2012-08-06 01:48:12 <gmaxwell> Do you care about the GUI?
 108 2012-08-06 01:49:03 <gmaxwell> (keeping in mind that 0.7 makes the CLI/RPC accessible from the GUI)
 109 2012-08-06 01:49:48 <copumpkin> hmm, maybe not then
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 111 2012-08-06 01:56:48 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened issue 1653 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1653>
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 124 2012-08-06 02:27:18 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened issue 1654 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1654>
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 130 2012-08-06 02:52:49 <amiller> another advantage of that skip list thing is that if someone wanted to prove that a supposed fork had an invalid work somewhere, it would be easy provide a proof of exactly where that occurs
 131 2012-08-06 02:52:51 xorgate has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 132 2012-08-06 02:54:02 <amiller> yeah i'm splitting hairs at this point... i'm pretty much done with this whole train of thought since i found what i wanted.
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 146 2012-08-06 03:12:00 <Diablo-D3> Curiosity coverage starts on NASA TV in 24 minutes: http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv
 147 2012-08-06 03:12:23 <Diablo-D3> Curiosity lands on Mars in 2 hours and 24 minutes.
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 151 2012-08-06 03:21:42 <Joric> what's so special it's just the 13th artificial object on mars
 152 2012-08-06 03:22:03 <jgarzik> neat.  my by-height index makes finding the common root of two chains trivial.
 153 2012-08-06 03:22:12 <jgarzik> that makes reorg pretty easy
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 162 2012-08-06 04:00:51 * roconnor 's priority search queue makes reorg unnecessary.
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 165 2012-08-06 04:04:44 <amiller> roconnor, go on?
 166 2012-08-06 04:08:53 <roconnor> amiller: Oh; I store blocks in an off the shelf priority search queue. The priority of a block is the total work it builds on, the search key is the block Id.
 167 2012-08-06 04:09:16 <roconnor> amiller: therefor the block with the most work is alway at the top of the priority queue
 168 2012-08-06 04:09:39 <amiller> i see
 169 2012-08-06 04:09:43 <roconnor> each block stores its previous block
 170 2012-08-06 04:10:02 <amiller> are you talking about actually building that structure into the block protocol
 171 2012-08-06 04:10:04 <roconnor> so you can pull the latest n blocks by lookup up each previous block
 172 2012-08-06 04:10:06 <amiller> meaning that structure gets hashed
 173 2012-08-06 04:10:48 <amiller> the 'block chain' is just the bottom row of a skip list
 174 2012-08-06 04:10:59 <roconnor> no; I'm just talking about how purecoin represents the blocks it knows about internally
 175 2012-08-06 04:11:03 <amiller> each level of the skip list is for another of difficulty
 176 2012-08-06 04:11:04 <amiller> oh okay
 177 2012-08-06 04:11:14 <roconnor> there is no "reorg" code in purecoin
 178 2012-08-06 04:11:26 <amiller> it's just a pure function
 179 2012-08-06 04:11:44 <roconnor> the priority queue gives access to the block with the most work automatically.
 180 2012-08-06 04:12:01 <amiller> you can bisect search to find a fork point then
 181 2012-08-06 04:12:08 <roconnor> no matter how it got there.
 182 2012-08-06 04:12:14 <roconnor> nope
 183 2012-08-06 04:12:24 <roconnor> no fork points needed
 184 2012-08-06 04:12:34 <jgarzik> well "reorg" is only necessary if you are maintaining a tx-spent index for only a single chain
 185 2012-08-06 04:13:07 <jgarzik> if you don't care about tx-spent or you index multiple forks, no reorg necessary
 186 2012-08-06 04:13:19 <roconnor> jgarzik: that's true; purecoin keeps a tx-spend index for every chain which I admit is a huge waste.
 187 2012-08-06 04:13:53 <amiller> even a tx spend index has mostly redundant data if you store it as a tree
 188 2012-08-06 04:14:54 <jgarzik> roconnor: that is arguably superior to satoshi client behavior, which simply gets stuck if it meets a block containing spent tx's during reorg.
 189 2012-08-06 04:15:06 <amiller> hrm
 190 2012-08-06 04:15:29 <jgarzik> it gets un-stuck when a stronger chain comes along, of course
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 203 2012-08-06 04:32:42 <amiller> okay so i used to hate on merged mining
 204 2012-08-06 04:32:52 <amiller> this new work-gobbling stuff has great implications for merged mining
 205 2012-08-06 04:34:15 <amiller> if a subset of miners are interested in a merged chain, even if the main chain pulls them in by recommitting their transactions in a different block
 206 2012-08-06 04:34:41 <amiller> there will be a record in the main chain of the merging-event, which will include the alt-chain-specific proofs of work
 207 2012-08-06 04:34:56 <gmaxwell> um. That isn't making sense to me.
 208 2012-08-06 04:35:14 <gmaxwell> Merged mining isn't.
 209 2012-08-06 04:35:37 <gmaxwell> (The 'merged' chains don't read the main chain at all)
 210 2012-08-06 04:37:24 <amiller> so merged chains rely on the blockchain to function as a general purpose timestamp service
 211 2012-08-06 04:37:34 <amiller> the blockchain might also function as a general purpose work-validation service
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 213 2012-08-06 04:38:43 <amiller> meh it probably has no practical use
 214 2012-08-06 04:46:23 <luke-jr> amiller: "merged mining" amounts to "proof of work is not SHA256(SHA256(block header)), but SHA256(SHA256(80 bytes with 36-68 being a merkle root with index 0 containing the hash of this block's header))"
 215 2012-08-06 04:46:35 <gmaxwell> 21:32 < amiller> so merged chains rely on the blockchain to function as a general purpose timestamp service
 216 2012-08-06 04:46:38 <gmaxwell> no. no timestamping
 217 2012-08-06 04:47:08 <gmaxwell> Which is important, because it means that some merged chain can implement your crazy ideas while still sharing work with bitcoin.
 218 2012-08-06 04:47:22 theymos has joined
 219 2012-08-06 04:48:15 <amiller> i suppose that's the greater relief.
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 221 2012-08-06 04:50:01 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: gmaxwell opened pull request 1655 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1655>
 222 2012-08-06 04:50:27 <gmaxwell> The telemetry visualizer for the mars landing looks like bzflag. 0_o
 223 2012-08-06 04:50:35 <amiller> you said that merged chains don't read the blockchain
 224 2012-08-06 04:50:47 <gmaxwell> They don't.
 225 2012-08-06 04:50:49 <amiller> what happens if someone gets an alt-chain header into a block and no one notices
 226 2012-08-06 04:50:57 <amiller> but later it is revealed that it came first
 227 2012-08-06 04:51:17 <amiller> or it has absolutely nothing to do with the blockchain
 228 2012-08-06 04:51:19 <gmaxwell> amiller: what happens if you mine a bitcoin block and forget to announce it until later? Same thing.
 229 2012-08-06 04:51:27 <gmaxwell> Absolutely nothing.
 230 2012-08-06 04:51:29 <amiller> there can be a different logical order then
 231 2012-08-06 04:51:53 <gmaxwell> It really has nothing to do with the blockchain. See what luke said above.
 232 2012-08-06 04:52:08 <amiller> so it shares work but absolutely nothing else
 233 2012-08-06 04:52:17 <amiller> hmm okay i always thought there was something more complicated going on
 234 2012-08-06 04:53:04 <gmaxwell> bitcoin's POW is sha256^2(header), merged chain's POW is sha256^2(bunch of ignored garbage... tree root.. garbage), and the real header is committed in the tree root.
 235 2012-08-06 04:53:46 <amiller> it still bugs me that a bunch of main-chain miners could decide they dislike a merged chain and wage war on it without even interfering with their profit on the main chain
 236 2012-08-06 04:54:19 <amiller> if you want to attack a chain, there should be an opportunity cost
 237 2012-08-06 04:55:26 <theymos> Alt chains could require a small fixed proof-of-work of their own in addition to merged mining.
 238 2012-08-06 04:55:52 <gmaxwell> amiller: the opportunity cost is the cost of defecting from legit behavior on the merged chain. Or as theymos says— it could be a staged POW.
 239 2012-08-06 04:55:56 <amiller> theymos, then there's no use of being merged unless there's some other benefit, such as logical time stamping or work checking
 240 2012-08-06 04:56:10 <amiller> gmaxwell, but it's legit behavior on the merged chain
 241 2012-08-06 04:56:32 <amiller> er it's legit behavior on the main chain
 242 2012-08-06 04:56:59 <amiller> it's antagonistic fork-ing or black-out behavior only to the merged chain
 243 2012-08-06 04:57:05 <gmaxwell> amiller: they lose the benefit of particpating on the merged chain— of course' it's _also_ possible for a merged chain to use things like time from the main chain to prevent some attacks.
 244 2012-08-06 04:57:09 <gmaxwell> P2pool does that.
 245 2012-08-06 04:57:30 <amiller> then you are using the main-chain's logical order for something
 246 2012-08-06 04:57:53 <gmaxwell> Yes, indeed. Thats the tradeoff.
 247 2012-08-06 04:58:02 <gmaxwell> The way namecoin uses it is maximally independant.
 248 2012-08-06 04:58:19 <amiller> so it would be considered invalid in the merge chain if you had a block that went logically backwards in the main chain
 249 2012-08-06 04:58:20 <gmaxwell> Which has perks including e.g. if the main chain fails it doesn't hurt merged chains at all.
 250 2012-08-06 04:58:31 <amiller> but you would have to monitor the main-chain in order to see that
 251 2012-08-06 04:58:56 <gmaxwell> amiller: well, only the minimum data required to achieve that. E.g. if you're only taking the time then you already have that data.
 252 2012-08-06 05:00:05 <jgarzik> theymos: any chance you could update http://blockexplorer.com/testnet to git HEAD?
 253 2012-08-06 05:00:31 <theymos> jgarzik: OK, I'll do it tomorrow.
 254 2012-08-06 05:00:53 <jgarzik> theymos: thanks
 255 2012-08-06 05:02:37 <gmaxwell> theymos: Thanks!
 256 2012-08-06 05:03:06 <gmaxwell> theymos: you might want to set aside a bit of time to fix bugs that it'll trigger in your software. :)
 257 2012-08-06 05:03:20 <theymos> What bugs will it trigger?
 258 2012-08-06 05:04:52 <gmaxwell> Who knows!
 259 2012-08-06 05:05:02 <gmaxwell> theymos: there are a lot of testcases in the testnet3 chain however.
 260 2012-08-06 05:05:18 <gmaxwell> Including a bunch of strange transactions, maximum sized blocks, etc.
 261 2012-08-06 05:06:46 <theymos> I use Bitcoin's internal data structures directly and its own toString stuff, so I think bugs are unlikely. Maybe I'll be surprised, though. :)
 262 2012-08-06 05:07:01 <gmaxwell> Good then.
 263 2012-08-06 05:07:22 <gmaxwell> theymos: some of your patches may not be needed anymore too, which should be nice.
 264 2012-08-06 05:07:24 OpenOcean is now known as Mad7Scientist
 265 2012-08-06 05:09:47 <luke-jr> (but you'll need to learn JSON-RPC 2.0 batching…)
 266 2012-08-06 05:10:51 <copumpkin> we're landing on mars soon!
 267 2012-08-06 05:11:02 <copumpkin> I hear the probe has a bitcoin client on it
 268 2012-08-06 05:11:09 <copumpkin> but the blockchain sync will take forever
 269 2012-08-06 05:11:18 <theymos> gmaxwell: Yeah, I saw that getblock was changed to be more complete. Pretty nice. Patches have always been a pain.
 270 2012-08-06 05:12:23 <gmaxwell> theymos: so, in theory you should be able to work now with an entirely unpatched bitcoind, but I may be missing something.
 271 2012-08-06 05:12:53 <gmaxwell> (but as far as I know we have the complete blockexplorer functionality internally— except index-by-address and the balance sheets that go with it)
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 275 2012-08-06 05:15:13 * luke-jr thinks it'd be swell if someone wrote a Bitcoin-Qt popup window with the full Block Explorer functionality <.<
 276 2012-08-06 05:15:43 <copumpkin> you'd need way more database on disk though
 277 2012-08-06 05:15:48 <copumpkin> or a very slow UI :)
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 280 2012-08-06 05:17:35 <theymos> gmaxwell: I think it is enough for the current functionality. In the future I was hoping to add pages for memory pool transactions and detailed info on addresses, alerts, etc. Patches will probably be necessary for this stuff.
 281 2012-08-06 05:17:51 <gmaxwell> theymos: we can dump the memory pool too.
 282 2012-08-06 05:18:20 <gmaxwell> Alerts .. yea, don't get detailed information... though I think we'd take a getalerts upstream if someone wanted to offer one.
 283 2012-08-06 05:19:04 <gmaxwell> (in particular you getrawmempool then getrawtransaction [id] 1 on each thing it returns)
 284 2012-08-06 05:20:00 <theymos> Ah, cool. Might be nice for bitcoind to send each new memory pool transaction somewhere for immediate processing, though.
 285 2012-08-06 05:23:10 <luke-jr> it already does…
 286 2012-08-06 05:23:12 <luke-jr> all its peers
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 307 2012-08-06 05:32:39 <amiller> the coolest thing about bitcoin is that the hard part is related to consensus, the conceptually easier part is the whole gossip network
 308 2012-08-06 05:32:45 <amiller> i just found this neat paper about anonymous publish/subscribe
 309 2012-08-06 05:32:46 <amiller> http://enstb.org/~gsimon/Resources/ipdps03-pubsub.pdf
 310 2012-08-06 05:32:50 MrTiggr- has joined
 311 2012-08-06 05:33:01 <amiller> it basically functions as a directed acyclic graph, which is exactly what all of these chains and trees and skip lists are
 312 2012-08-06 05:33:26 nickrb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 313 2012-08-06 05:33:32 <amiller> full nodes basically have all of their storage
 314 2012-08-06 05:34:00 nickrb has joined
 315 2012-08-06 05:34:00 <amiller> but it would be really efficient and scalable to distributed the storage and if you wanted to download e.g. the whole blockchain, you could automatically load balance kind of like in bittorrent
 316 2012-08-06 05:36:27 <amiller> bitcoin is totally prepared for interplanetary information dissemination.
 317 2012-08-06 05:36:35 <amiller> it's so sexy
 318 2012-08-06 05:38:00 <Diablo-D3> CURIOSITY HAS LANDED
 319 2012-08-06 05:38:01 <amiller> we'll be able to tweak it and scale it past any challenge you could throw at it.
 320 2012-08-06 05:38:08 <amiller> man i wish there was a bitcoin miner on mars
 321 2012-08-06 05:38:14 <amiller> that is so gonna be a kickstarter soon
 322 2012-08-06 05:38:22 <amiller> that would be a nice awareness-raiser
 323 2012-08-06 05:38:32 <amiller> you could put a bitcoin miner on mars
 324 2012-08-06 05:38:35 <amiller> and it pays itself bitcoins
 325 2012-08-06 05:38:40 <amiller> eventually when astronauts get to mars
 326 2012-08-06 05:38:46 <amiller> they'll be able to take the private key and buy porn with it
 327 2012-08-06 05:38:55 <amiller> or drugs
 328 2012-08-06 05:39:44 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 329 2012-08-06 05:39:44 <gmaxwell> amiller: dude CURIOSITY HAS LANDED. stop with your drug key worries!
 330 2012-08-06 05:40:43 <amiller> anyway the last time a mining operation began on mars it didn't end so well http://free.pages.at/hbredel/dateien/Descent.gif
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 332 2012-08-06 05:48:23 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 333 2012-08-06 05:48:26 <Joric> mining operation? )
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 337 2012-08-06 06:02:16 <jgarzik> Scanned 942 tx, height 4033 (0 failures), 143.89 sec
 338 2012-08-06 06:02:35 ForceMajeure has joined
 339 2012-08-06 06:02:52 <jgarzik> replace deepcopy with a manual copy, bringing script eval time down to 144 sec, from ~820 sec or so
 340 2012-08-06 06:04:20 <jgarzik> still painful for large numbers of inputs
 341 2012-08-06 06:04:43 <jgarzik> For 3,000 inputs, SignatureHash winds up creating 3,000 CTransaction copies, each with 3,000 inputs
 342 2012-08-06 06:05:38 <copumpkin> is Maged able to view private messages on the forum?
 343 2012-08-06 06:05:50 <copumpkin> as a global moderator?
 344 2012-08-06 06:06:25 <Maged> No. Only theymos can, and only in specific circumstances.
 345 2012-08-06 06:06:32 <copumpkin> ah, okay
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 357 2012-08-06 06:37:20 <weex> with 14 mins of delay between earth and mars, how many blocks per day would you set for an earth-mars coin so as not too have too many orphans/mining waste?
 358 2012-08-06 06:38:09 <amiller> weex, what matters is that no more than half of your work gets wasted on orphaned forks
 359 2012-08-06 06:38:14 Gladamas has joined
 360 2012-08-06 06:38:53 <amiller> of course that's easy to do - it happens when the average time to find a block is at least 14 minutes
 361 2012-08-06 06:39:19 <weex> oh so it doesn't have to be 1 blk per day or anything that slow
 362 2012-08-06 06:39:24 <amiller> not at all
 363 2012-08-06 06:39:42 <amiller> it could even be faster if you were willing to tolerate only a 20% attacker instead of 33% or something
 364 2012-08-06 06:39:56 <amiller> of course we're running bitcoin right now as though we were already spread out half way to mars :3
 365 2012-08-06 06:41:01 <weex> lol, nice
 366 2012-08-06 06:41:05 <amiller> our computers are so fast that we keep the difficulty high just because we don't even have enough transactions to warrant going faster so there's actually plenty of slack for the network to get worse
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 370 2012-08-06 06:42:30 <gmaxwell> amiller: validation takes a lot of time on top of propagation.
 371 2012-08-06 06:42:55 <gmaxwell> amiller: we're seeing e.g. 2 minute propagation times in practice.
 372 2012-08-06 06:43:13 <amiller> we'll eventually be able to validate while we propagate
 373 2012-08-06 06:43:19 <amiller> since validation only requires local information
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 375 2012-08-06 06:43:46 <amiller> validation and propagation both essentially scale
 376 2012-08-06 06:43:56 <amiller> but yeah if propagation is 2 minutes then i suppose you add that to the 14 minutes
 377 2012-08-06 06:44:38 <gmaxwell> amiller: also if you're at the edge of latency you'll sometimes have big reorgs from races if the hashrate is well split.
 378 2012-08-06 06:45:08 <weex> so gmaxwell you say less blocks per day?
 379 2012-08-06 06:46:19 <amiller> as long as the difficulty to propagation ratio is at least 1:1 then basically there's a 50/50% chance that the next block will be found and propagated before the second bock is found
 380 2012-08-06 06:46:30 <amiller> so reorgs still resolve exponentially quick
 381 2012-08-06 06:47:21 <weex> is that 2 min propogation time from miners who seem not to be updated or from some other measurement?
 382 2012-08-06 06:47:26 <gmaxwell> amiller: something like 1 in 100 race events would result in a six block reorg in that case.
 383 2012-08-06 06:47:54 <amiller> yeah
 384 2012-08-06 06:48:07 <amiller> well i suppose it's always safer to set the difficulty as high as you can tolerate
 385 2012-08-06 06:48:43 <gmaxwell> actually 2.25% would be 6 or longer, at the mean = propagation, and 50% on each side.
 386 2012-08-06 06:48:51 paul0 has joined
 387 2012-08-06 06:49:18 <amiller> i bet we can super streamline propagation
 388 2012-08-06 06:50:06 <gmaxwell> Yes, working on it.. but you can't streamline the speed of light.. so you really do need a healty margin over the part you can't improve. :)
 389 2012-08-06 06:50:11 <amiller> mm
 390 2012-08-06 06:50:13 <amiller> yeah
 391 2012-08-06 06:50:14 <gmaxwell> (pratically, to make the system sanely usable... )
 392 2012-08-06 06:51:31 <amiller> well i wonder at what point it's preferable just to wait for more blocks and cope with the reorgs
 393 2012-08-06 06:51:53 <amiller> like you can't double the difficulty and then trust 3 block confirmations
 394 2012-08-06 06:52:26 <amiller> if you want the most safety in the fastest time
 395 2012-08-06 06:52:27 <amiller> you'll hit 1:1
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 399 2012-08-06 06:58:29 <gmaxwell> amiller: True, but I think the question people are usually asking there is "how long must I wait to consider a transaction settled".
 400 2012-08-06 06:58:45 <gmaxwell> And certantly including mars makes that a honking big number.
 401 2012-08-06 06:59:06 <amiller> yeah. definitely that time will increase quite a bit
 402 2012-08-06 06:59:28 <amiller> so it's misleading for me to say 'oh you just increase the difficulty a bit' because more than that changes too
 403 2012-08-06 07:00:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's a hard technical question but a relatively easy economic question
 404 2012-08-06 07:00:09 <weex> people have a concept that a confirmation is a confirmation is a confirmation
 405 2012-08-06 07:00:26 <amiller> i've changed my focus from 'byzantine consensus' to 'self stabilizing systems'
 406 2012-08-06 07:00:31 <amiller> it eventually converges
 407 2012-08-06 07:00:47 <amiller> but it's not totally defined how long that will take
 408 2012-08-06 07:01:03 <amiller> the odds get exponentially better in your favor the longer you wait
 409 2012-08-06 07:01:10 <amiller> i think there will ultimately end up being some kind of risk analysis to do
 410 2012-08-06 07:01:21 <amiller> maybe you'll be able to purchase fork insurance
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 413 2012-08-06 07:11:30 <midnightmagic> well it isn't hard to calculate the odds of a tx being overwritten. it's right there in satoshi's paper. mapping your comfort level to the calculation is a bit harder..
 414 2012-08-06 07:13:32 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: we're talking about attacker free reorg risks when the network is split in half with a communication delay equal to mean block time.
 415 2012-08-06 07:13:47 <midnightmagic> like perfectly in half?
 416 2012-08-06 07:13:54 <gmaxwell> sure. Thats the worst case.
 417 2012-08-06 07:14:36 <gmaxwell> e.g. if half the hashpower is on mars, 14 lightminutes away, and the mean block time is 14 minutes.
 418 2012-08-06 07:14:57 <midnightmagic> you mean amiller's research topics?
 419 2012-08-06 07:15:43 <gmaxwell> weex asked about block times for mining on mars.
 420 2012-08-06 07:15:49 <Gladamas> Libertarians talking about how a NASA Mars rover can mine their digital currency... what has this world come to?
 421 2012-08-06 07:15:57 <amiller> :>
 422 2012-08-06 07:16:11 <weex> oh, i never thought about the rover itself mining
 423 2012-08-06 07:16:17 <weex> nice Gladamas
 424 2012-08-06 07:16:28 <Gladamas> lol
 425 2012-08-06 07:16:31 <amiller> imagine if we prepare a little colony on mars
 426 2012-08-06 07:16:31 <weex> maybe at night
 427 2012-08-06 07:16:32 <Gladamas> lmao
 428 2012-08-06 07:16:35 <amiller> and we esatablish its economy first
 429 2012-08-06 07:16:44 <gmaxwell> Gladamas: I'm not a libertarian. Or rather, I might be, but I'm certantly not what most of the crazy internet people calling themselves libertarians are.
 430 2012-08-06 07:16:58 <amiller> we're all cypherpunks
 431 2012-08-06 07:17:01 <amiller> better living through cryptography
 432 2012-08-06 07:17:05 <Gladamas> No offense intended to anyone.
 433 2012-08-06 07:17:21 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: LOL
 434 2012-08-06 07:19:03 <weex> oh, the delay to mars varies from 8-42 minutes!
 435 2012-08-06 07:19:24 <amiller> oh shit.
 436 2012-08-06 07:19:27 <amiller> i forgot about the darkside!
 437 2012-08-06 07:19:36 <amiller> and the elliptical orbit
 438 2012-08-06 07:19:43 <weex> i think we're assuming a global network over there first
 439 2012-08-06 07:19:54 <Diablo-D3> there isnt one
 440 2012-08-06 07:19:58 <gmaxwell> yea, I gave all these figures in #bitcoin a few days ago.
 441 2012-08-06 07:20:01 <Diablo-D3> we really need two or three communications sats
 442 2012-08-06 07:20:07 <Diablo-D3> well, really, spy sats
 443 2012-08-06 07:20:15 <amiller> is it easy to compute in space
 444 2012-08-06 07:20:27 <Diablo-D3> amiller: no
 445 2012-08-06 07:20:32 <amiller> heat sinks don't work well do they
 446 2012-08-06 07:20:32 <Diablo-D3> well, "yeS"
 447 2012-08-06 07:20:36 <Diablo-D3> but you cant dump heat
 448 2012-08-06 07:20:36 <amiller> space doesn't conduct heat away very well
 449 2012-08-06 07:20:42 <amiller> damn
 450 2012-08-06 07:20:44 <Diablo-D3> its not that they dont work well... its that they dont work at all
 451 2012-08-06 07:21:03 <amiller> that's a pretty big problem
 452 2012-08-06 07:21:21 <amiller> maybe you'd have to wrap your gpu in a giant heat diaper and then occasionally send someone out to change the warm diaper
 453 2012-08-06 07:21:57 <amiller> maybe you can collect space debris and just pour heat into it
 454 2012-08-06 07:22:04 <midnightmagic> or just long threads of copper spread out wide to maximize thermal radiation
 455 2012-08-06 07:22:15 <weex> c'mon let's be serious, there are no repairmen in space!
 456 2012-08-06 07:22:16 <midnightmagic> giant infrared heat sinks.
 457 2012-08-06 07:22:23 <amiller> that's interesting
 458 2012-08-06 07:22:30 <midnightmagic> with a shield on the sun side.
 459 2012-08-06 07:22:30 <amiller> you could easily spread wire out in all dimensions
 460 2012-08-06 07:22:47 <weex> yeah black body radiation is pretty much all you've got out there
 461 2012-08-06 07:23:05 <amiller> what an interesting set of problems.
 462 2012-08-06 07:23:47 <amiller> there's gotta be a spacecoin bounty
 463 2012-08-06 07:24:01 * luke-jr wonders if you can shoot off heat without an object attached
 464 2012-08-06 07:24:02 <midnightmagic> there's someone out one step from someone I know who apparently wants to launch millions of small foil-looking compute cluster devices into orbit for solar supercomputing.
 465 2012-08-06 07:24:05 <weex> new rule: thin clients only, in space
 466 2012-08-06 07:24:22 <luke-jr> weex: those probably would work even worse
 467 2012-08-06 07:24:30 <luke-jr> weex: just as long as no miners in space, should be fine
 468 2012-08-06 07:24:31 <amiller> actually
 469 2012-08-06 07:24:37 <amiller> space would be a great place to put the propagation network
 470 2012-08-06 07:24:46 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: like an infrared laser or something?  only if you could convert the heat into energy really really efficiently.
 471 2012-08-06 07:24:52 <amiller> you can gossip efficiently using minimal cpu power
 472 2012-08-06 07:25:04 <amiller> that way when the data gets to mars it's already sorted and indexed for quick traversal
 473 2012-08-06 07:25:09 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: like how heat gets from Sol to everywhere else
 474 2012-08-06 07:25:21 <amiller> space sucks for mining, any mining operation is going to be consolidated on the planets
 475 2012-08-06 07:25:36 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: But if you could convert heat efficiently into energy you could just use it as a power-assist..
 476 2012-08-06 07:25:36 <Gladamas> Guys, convection and conduction doesnt work well, so you have to BEAM the infrared rays away! derp
 477 2012-08-06 07:26:04 <amiller> if you could convert heat efficiently into energy you could unwind the entire universe and uninstall god
 478 2012-08-06 07:26:13 <luke-jr> no
 479 2012-08-06 07:26:14 <amiller> or at least fork before god
 480 2012-08-06 07:26:26 <luke-jr> there is no such thing as before God
 481 2012-08-06 07:26:40 <Gladamas> uninstall god lol. like someone ever did sudo apt-get install god
 482 2012-08-06 07:26:47 <amiller> luke-jr, of course you're right, but only because we can't convert heat efficinetly
 483 2012-08-06 07:27:16 <amiller> luke-jr, you might like the following thought
 484 2012-08-06 07:27:22 <Gladamas> If we could create electricity out of excess heat, we could solve the world's energy crisis AND global warming.
 485 2012-08-06 07:27:42 <midnightmagic> well, we can convert heat into electricity actually.
 486 2012-08-06 07:27:44 <amiller> the reason why it's possibel to have bitcoin between here and mars is that we are basically keeping time by rare events such that one of them occurs on earth and news of it travels before mars finds a redundant block
 487 2012-08-06 07:27:49 <midnightmagic> just not super efficiently
 488 2012-08-06 07:27:52 <luke-jr> Gladamas: nah, global warming can't be solved by non-political means
 489 2012-08-06 07:27:55 <amiller> in a way we're marking time by partitioning it according to rare events
 490 2012-08-06 07:28:03 <amiller> the most well established thing like this in civilization is how we indicate time by bc/ad
 491 2012-08-06 07:28:16 <gmaxwell> http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v108/i9/e097403 < it needs lots of these.
 492 2012-08-06 07:28:19 <midnightmagic> millions of foil compute satellites could reduce solar radiation and help cool the planet.
 493 2012-08-06 07:28:29 <amiller> jesus being reincarcerated is the most rare event that we can all pretty much agree on which side of it we live
 494 2012-08-06 07:28:34 <amiller> not reincarcerated, something else
 495 2012-08-06 07:28:37 [\\\] has quit ()
 496 2012-08-06 07:29:15 <midnightmagic> "Above unit efficiency"?!
 497 2012-08-06 07:29:43 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it pumps its internal heat away into light.
 498 2012-08-06 07:29:43 <weex> let's have a block more often than every 2012 years please
 499 2012-08-06 07:29:53 <gmaxwell> amiller: "byzantine consensus by immaculate conception"
 500 2012-08-06 07:30:04 <amiller> damn straight
 501 2012-08-06 07:30:21 <amiller> that's pretty much equivalent to the 'common random string' assumption in non-interactive zero knowledge proofs
 502 2012-08-06 07:30:42 <amiller> the genesis block was immaculately conceived
 503 2012-08-06 07:30:44 <amiller> no parents
 504 2012-08-06 07:30:50 <gmaxwell> amiller: tell those people to please stop adding jibberish to the blockchain for their stupid voting systems.
 505 2012-08-06 07:31:25 <amiller> i like to think that there's a block chain out there underneath satoshi's genesis block
 506 2012-08-06 07:31:42 <amiller> someday a huge fork will come down and we will have to unwind all of our blocks to yield to the superior fork
 507 2012-08-06 07:31:45 <amiller> it will be the bitcoin rapture
 508 2012-08-06 07:31:46 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Yeah, but "above unity efficiency"?!
 509 2012-08-06 07:32:07 osxorgate has joined
 510 2012-08-06 07:32:34 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: because it steals its own heat. It's not really above unity efficiency. It's above unity if you have an accounting problem due to only counting the electrical input.
 511 2012-08-06 07:32:50 <weex> amiller: that huge fork would need to surpass "ours" cumultaive difficulty though right?
 512 2012-08-06 07:33:08 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Where does the extra heat energy come from except the wall plug?
 513 2012-08-06 07:33:08 [\\\] has joined
 514 2012-08-06 07:33:37 <amiller> and behold, god did invert the prophet satoshi's truly random and pure genesis block, and the miners did succumb to the blinding and indisputable light of the fork larger than any mortal machines could ever compute
 515 2012-08-06 07:33:58 <amiller> god doesn't play satoshidice
 516 2012-08-06 07:34:59 <midnightmagic> booo! hiss!
 517 2012-08-06 07:35:04 <amiller> midnightmagic, the point is you can fill that think up with head
 518 2012-08-06 07:35:20 <amiller> and then power it with electricity and it actually radiates your heat outwards
 519 2012-08-06 07:35:27 <midnightmagic> ah "A heated semiconductor light-emitting diode"
 520 2012-08-06 07:35:42 <amiller> so it's dissipating your waste heat for you
 521 2012-08-06 07:35:47 <midnightmagic> stupid slow internet.
 522 2012-08-06 07:36:10 <amiller> you're losing energy in the process so it's not overunity production, but it is more efficient than blockbody radiation
 523 2012-08-06 07:36:12 <amiller> that's pretty cool
 524 2012-08-06 07:36:31 <gmaxwell> thats why I said you need it for your space miners.
 525 2012-08-06 07:36:37 <amiller> do you think it's viable?
 526 2012-08-06 07:36:42 <gmaxwell> For that? no.
 527 2012-08-06 07:36:59 <amiller> disappointing :( why not?
 528 2012-08-06 07:37:43 <gmaxwell> I mean— perhaps something could be made.. but there is a lot of enegineering along the way.
 529 2012-08-06 07:38:27 <weex> maybe we should add something to the Bitcoin system requirements: an atmosphere
 530 2012-08-06 07:38:39 <amiller> hah
 531 2012-08-06 07:38:48 meelu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 532 2012-08-06 07:40:10 * midnightmagic slowly downloads that research pdf..
 533 2012-08-06 07:41:06 nickrb- has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 534 2012-08-06 07:41:35 nickrb has joined
 535 2012-08-06 07:49:20 <Gladamas> FTFY: -*- midnightmagic slowly downloads that research pdf from the Odyssey probe.
 536 2012-08-06 07:50:38 Gladamas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 537 2012-08-06 07:50:49 <midnightmagic> "Black-body radiation with extra dimensions"
 538 2012-08-06 08:02:55 <midnightmagic> Ah cool! "Thermal radiation
 539 2012-08-06 08:02:55 <midnightmagic> Peter von Böckh and Thomas Wetzel
 540 2012-08-06 08:02:56 <midnightmagic> 2012, Heat Transfer, Pages 189-213"
 541 2012-08-06 08:03:23 <midnightmagic> "Emission coefficients of technical surfaces" table!
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 564 2012-08-06 09:09:43 <ageis> interesting discussion, guys
 565 2012-08-06 09:09:58 <mistfpga> hopefully so...
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 575 2012-08-06 09:50:14 <diki> After a few hours I was finally able to create a bitcoin address generator for Android(not sure if others exist).
 576 2012-08-06 09:51:15 <diki> Although at this point it is fairly limited, till I port PCRE and allow for regex.
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 628 2012-08-06 12:42:06 <BlueMatt> does rawtxn creation stuff let you play with non-SIGHASH_ALL txn?
 629 2012-08-06 12:42:19 <gmaxwell> Yes.
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 645 2012-08-06 13:34:01 <sipa> TD: did a benchmark yesterday for importing 188k blocks with sigchecking enabled and disabled; 5m40s vs 1h35m21s
 646 2012-08-06 13:34:20 <TD> cool
 647 2012-08-06 13:34:23 <sipa> which corresponds to a sig check speed of 1735/s, in practice
 648 2012-08-06 13:34:47 <sipa> on one core of my i7 2670 at 2.2GHz
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 650 2012-08-06 13:35:58 <sipa> there are some 9-10 million sig checks in the main chain right now
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 652 2012-08-06 13:39:01 <jgarzik> pynode can load a chain in maybe 1 hour, sans sigchecks
 653 2012-08-06 13:39:18 <jgarzik> my database setup is awful, so that slows it down a bit
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 655 2012-08-06 13:40:58 <TD> sipa: that's very good indeed
 656 2012-08-06 13:41:15 <TD> i feel that 0.8 should have all the perf improvements we can do merged as a matter of priority and then released
 657 2012-08-06 13:41:28 <TD> so we can get transactions and blocks flowing smoothly again
 658 2012-08-06 13:41:31 one_zero has quit ()
 659 2012-08-06 13:42:35 <sipa> if we'd have multithreaded sig verification, a lot more can be gained
 660 2012-08-06 13:43:08 <sipa> but upon re-import of an existing blk0001.dat/blkindex.dat, you can walk the existing best chain with sigchecking disabled
 661 2012-08-06 13:43:17 <sipa> contrary to normal -loadblock
 662 2012-08-06 13:43:22 <TD> yes
 663 2012-08-06 13:43:48 <TD> the leveldb pull req adds a conversion path with progress updates in the gui and disabled sig checking for the whole process
 664 2012-08-06 13:44:06 <sipa> oh, didn't know that
 665 2012-08-06 13:44:08 <sipa> nice
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 667 2012-08-06 13:44:45 <TD> pull it and try it out ;)
 668 2012-08-06 13:49:14 <gmaxwell> On the subject of performance: the long chain scanning times on startup are somewhat out of control.
 669 2012-08-06 13:49:24 <TD> the re-validation?
 670 2012-08-06 13:49:25 <TD> yes
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 672 2012-08-06 13:50:00 <TD> it's only strictly necessary after upgrades, right
 673 2012-08-06 13:50:19 <gmaxwell> The revalidation part is only a few seconds, at least in my test, but the reading in the index is much of the time.
 674 2012-08-06 13:50:32 <sipa> without PoW check on startup, you can do really nasty things if someone trusts you enough to accept a forged blkindex.dat file
 675 2012-08-06 13:50:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: there's a very simple fix for that
 676 2012-08-06 13:50:56 <sipa> store multiple blocks in one index entry
 677 2012-08-06 13:50:57 <gmaxwell> TD: ironically the revalidation doesn't check deeply enough to matter for upgrades.
 678 2012-08-06 13:51:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: that also allows reduction of the block index by a factor 3 or so
 679 2012-08-06 13:51:28 <sipa> in size
 680 2012-08-06 13:51:59 <gmaxwell> The revalidation would be useful for unclean shutdowns leaving torn blocks or such, but it's not because we'll just fall over if any part of the index points past the end of the blockfile.
 681 2012-08-06 13:52:19 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: random question time
 682 2012-08-06 13:52:31 <Diablo-D3> whats the fastest malloc impl for highly threaded apps out there
 683 2012-08-06 13:52:45 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: don't malloc if you want fast, of course.
 684 2012-08-06 13:53:02 <Diablo-D3> yes, thus my question
 685 2012-08-06 13:53:15 <Diablo-D3> cant allocate everything on the stack ;)
 686 2012-08-06 13:53:18 <sipa> tcmalloc?
 687 2012-08-06 13:53:43 <Diablo-D3> facebook claims very specific usage of jemalloc is
 688 2012-08-06 13:53:44 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you can just allocate a big hunk of heap to begin with though! Without knowing what you're doing I can't say more.
 689 2012-08-06 13:53:47 <TD> Diablo-D3: tcmalloc is designed for that
 690 2012-08-06 13:54:03 <Diablo-D3> well, an engineer at facebook
 691 2012-08-06 13:54:07 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yes, but you have to manage it
 692 2012-08-06 13:54:13 <TD> gmaxwell: i don't see any way to avoid reading all the block headers. possibly, inserting the headers into the database and iterating over them is faster than seeking over all of blk0000?.dat
 693 2012-08-06 13:54:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: thus supplying your own malloc impl
 694 2012-08-06 13:54:36 <Diablo-D3> https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-engineering/scalable-memory-allocation-using-jemalloc/480222803919
 695 2012-08-06 13:54:44 <Diablo-D3> also, why the fuck does facebook use such a useless font size
 696 2012-08-06 13:54:53 <sipa> TD: reading a few megabytes of data from a db shouldn't take long
 697 2012-08-06 13:54:55 <Diablo-D3> Im not a facebook user, but Im even gladder Im not
 698 2012-08-06 13:55:01 <gmaxwell> TD: It's all of 15 megs of data or so— so there should be some way of making it fast.
 699 2012-08-06 13:55:04 <gmaxwell> :)
 700 2012-08-06 13:55:11 <Diablo-D3> scroll to the graph at the bottom
 701 2012-08-06 13:55:17 <Diablo-D3> tcmalloc isnt the fastest, although its close
 702 2012-08-06 13:55:30 <Diablo-D3> Im just trying to figure out if theres anything else I should pay attention to
 703 2012-08-06 13:55:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: it fits in less than 10 MiB, with some tricks
 704 2012-08-06 13:55:51 <TD> oh, ignore me
 705 2012-08-06 13:56:01 <TD> the headers are already in the database. in fact, i converted that very code to use leveldb.
 706 2012-08-06 13:56:04 <TD> apparently i'm not awake yet
 707 2012-08-06 13:56:21 <TD> sipa: try the leveldb branch and see if it's any faster. i don't know if it would be or not, but at least the code is different
 708 2012-08-06 13:56:31 <TD> otherwise later i'll try comparing the times on my own builds
 709 2012-08-06 13:56:58 * Diablo-D3 will probably see if he can bash together tcmalloc and jemalloc]
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 713 2012-08-06 14:01:14 <Diablo-D3> oh damnit TD
 714 2012-08-06 14:01:22 <Diablo-D3> TD is an asshole.
 715 2012-08-06 14:01:28 <Diablo-D3> guess who wrote tcmalloc
 716 2012-08-06 14:01:29 <Diablo-D3> google
 717 2012-08-06 14:01:33 <Diablo-D3> guess what TD is
 718 2012-08-06 14:01:36 <Diablo-D3> a googlite.
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 720 2012-08-06 14:04:55 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: really those results suggest to me that faster malloc isn't worth worrying about... they're only showing a little better than 2x performance from what is probably a best case example. Maybe the overhead win is bigger.
 721 2012-08-06 14:05:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, I told you about lugh, right?
 722 2012-08-06 14:05:25 <Diablo-D3> its supposed to make writing highly complex massive applications in C easier
 723 2012-08-06 14:05:40 <Diablo-D3> something that you can write failsafeness in
 724 2012-08-06 14:05:48 <gmaxwell> (I mean, obviously worth it for them, as they've probably optimized everything else... but not generally)
 725 2012-08-06 14:05:49 <Diablo-D3> without just going to erlang and ending it all
 726 2012-08-06 14:06:11 bitllc has joined
 727 2012-08-06 14:06:18 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: link?
 728 2012-08-06 14:06:22 <Diablo-D3> isnt one yet.
 729 2012-08-06 14:06:37 <Diablo-D3> and the only part of that really exists is the stm impl
 730 2012-08-06 14:07:20 <Diablo-D3> the rest of it is either dummy framework or stuff I havent committed because its crap
 731 2012-08-06 14:07:39 bitllc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 732 2012-08-06 14:08:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: see pm, but dont show other people
 733 2012-08-06 14:08:41 <Diablo-D3> the license obviously doesnt prohibit you, but I want to show the world when its done and I github it
 734 2012-08-06 14:10:40 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: its kind of shit code in places though
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 745 2012-08-06 14:26:18 * sipa wonders how efficient a scrypt implementation in javascript would be
 746 2012-08-06 14:27:22 * jgarzik is curious about the level internal design
 747 2012-08-06 14:27:25 <jgarzik> *leveldb
 748 2012-08-06 14:27:43 <jgarzik> doc/table_format.txt says it is a list of sorted blocks
 749 2012-08-06 14:27:48 <jgarzik> *always-sorted
 750 2012-08-06 14:28:00 <jgarzik> wonder how often that file gets rewritten?
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 753 2012-08-06 14:31:11 <jgarzik> it sounds similar to a database engine I once pondered writing:  maintain an always-ordered flat file F1, plus a log L1 of changes.  at log-flush time (once every 24 hours or whatever), open a new log L2, freeze L1, write new flat file F2 from scratch using background thread, such that F2==F1+L1
 754 2012-08-06 14:31:38 <jgarzik> the question -- will the rewrite traffic be more costly than the win gained from locality?
 755 2012-08-06 14:31:43 <sipa> jgarzik: did you read the leveldb paper?
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 757 2012-08-06 14:31:49 <sipa> eh, bigtable
 758 2012-08-06 14:32:10 <jgarzik> sipa: I read bigtable-osdi06.pdf
 759 2012-08-06 14:32:15 <Diablo-D3> >bigtable
 760 2012-08-06 14:32:18 <sipa> yeah, thatone
 761 2012-08-06 14:32:20 <jgarzik> sipa: if there are others, would like to read them
 762 2012-08-06 14:32:27 <Diablo-D3> see, people worry that google will take over the world
 763 2012-08-06 14:32:30 <Diablo-D3> their fears are unfounded
 764 2012-08-06 14:32:35 <Diablo-D3> google already did.
 765 2012-08-06 14:32:38 <Diablo-D3> >_>
 766 2012-08-06 14:32:40 <sipa> :D
 767 2012-08-06 14:33:39 <jgarzik> sipa: at the time I read the paper, I thought to myself that google's data needs tended to be such that a rewrite-entire-db scheme would not be overly costly.  They have big data generation processes, then their data sits largely static after that.
 768 2012-08-06 14:33:44 <jgarzik> kinda like bitcoin :)
 769 2012-08-06 14:33:53 <Diablo-D3> I have to admit one thing
 770 2012-08-06 14:34:03 <Diablo-D3> bigtable's optimizations are somewhat clever
 771 2012-08-06 14:36:59 <sipa> 16:26:32 < jgarzik> the question -- will the rewrite traffic be more costly than the win gained from locality?    -->  i doubt many databases *constantly* saturate the write throughput
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 775 2012-08-06 14:38:01 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yes they do.
 776 2012-08-06 14:38:24 <Diablo-D3> trust me, add mysql to any forum or blog
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 778 2012-08-06 14:38:27 <jgarzik> sipa: agreed, but _rewrite_ also means you might saturate your own write throughput, if you have a lot of static data to rewrite, e.g. rewriting the block chain database every night, for example
 779 2012-08-06 14:40:30 prahanormal has quit ()
 780 2012-08-06 14:41:30 <jgarzik> interesting: "Transactions are not supported. Writes (including batches) are atomic.  Consistency is up to you.  There is limited isolation support.  Durability is a configurable option.  Full blown ACID transactions require a layer on top of LevelDB"
 781 2012-08-06 14:41:59 * jgarzik presumes TD[gone] does all the writing for one SetBestChain in one batch
 782 2012-08-06 14:42:37 <jgarzik> ah hah, this is how they avoid rewriting many gigabytes: "LevelDB keeps a separate file for every couple of MB of data, and these are all in one directory.  Depending on the underlying file system, this might start causing trouble at some point."
 783 2012-08-06 14:42:43 <jgarzik> makes sense
 784 2012-08-06 14:43:54 * jgarzik reads http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/8/10/leveldb-fast-and-lightweight-keyvalue-database-from-the-auth.html
 785 2012-08-06 14:49:03 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, all writes in one batch
 786 2012-08-06 14:49:28 <sipa> and reads read from the batch being constructed
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 791 2012-08-06 14:59:41 <t7> is the database code abstracted now?
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 803 2012-08-06 15:08:42 <OneEyed> The mixer at blockchain.info generates so many fee-less 0 confirmation transactions that getting a confirmation on an outgoing transaction takes *hours*
 804 2012-08-06 15:10:24 <gmaxwell> OneEyed: why would it do that when they're charging 1.5% _plus_ 2x the actual minfee?
 805 2012-08-06 15:11:43 drizztbsd has joined
 806 2012-08-06 15:13:15 <OneEyed> gmaxwell: they're not charging anything right now, they're even offering a 0.5% chargeback because they need fresh coins
 807 2012-08-06 15:14:34 <OneEyed> ed262adf56566c5454e54079277daf867bb27de2c791a38679315f74e562ba35 has been generated almost 3 hours ago, and it belongs to a chain of 2-0-0-0 confirmations
 808 2012-08-06 15:14:53 <gmaxwell> OneEyed: My understanding is thats only because they have a surplus of people who have already paid 1.5% and they need fresh suckers to take the crime connected outputs they have in excess.
 809 2012-08-06 15:15:47 <OneEyed> gmaxwell: yes, I agree, they do make money. I wonder why they don't include a fee.
 810 2012-08-06 15:16:10 <gmaxwell> It's not bad news though—
 811 2012-08-06 15:16:29 <gmaxwell> I'm happy they don't simply because it means these mixer transactions aren't getting priority over people who have provided a fee.
 812 2012-08-06 15:16:43 <gmaxwell> I think its fairly reasonable that these would take a while to confirm.
 813 2012-08-06 15:17:30 <gmaxwell> kinda unfortunate they're making redundant transactions apparently to resize inputs.
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 815 2012-08-06 15:18:52 <OneEyed> gmaxwell: and the proposed change to bitcoind which takes the previous transaction cost into account will not help this chaining to go forward without transaction fees
 816 2012-08-06 15:19:37 <yellowhat> feature request: it freaks me totally out if i am starting up bitcoin-qt and it is not fully loaded. it displays 0 BTC and 0 transactions. it would be much better if it said nothing.
 817 2012-08-06 15:20:00 <yellowhat> shall i file an issue on github on this one?
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 820 2012-08-06 15:25:37 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: Sure.
 821 2012-08-06 15:25:47 <gmaxwell> I didn't think it did that.
 822 2012-08-06 15:26:36 <gmaxwell> (I thought both the RPC and gui were unresponsive until the wallet was loaded)
 823 2012-08-06 15:27:04 <yellowhat> it is unresponsive it just renders the UI already
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 825 2012-08-06 15:28:05 <yellowhat> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1656
 826 2012-08-06 15:28:18 <gmaxwell> Thanks!
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 832 2012-08-06 15:31:23 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: apetersson opened issue 1656 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1656>
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 834 2012-08-06 15:35:21 <t7> whats the advantage of a finite number of bitcoin?
 835 2012-08-06 15:35:38 <BlueMatt> generates early adoption
 836 2012-08-06 15:35:41 <quintopia> ^
 837 2012-08-06 15:39:07 <gmaxwell> s/early //  basically it removes one whole degree of freedom from my 'is bitcoin worth messing with' formula, also removes a degree of freedom from the potential unadjustable economic parameters.
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 840 2012-08-06 15:41:15 <BlueMatt> s/early /pre-max-hit /
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 846 2012-08-06 16:01:54 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: apetersson opened issue 1656 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1656> || gmaxwell opened pull request 1655 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1655>
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 851 2012-08-06 16:41:02 <BlueMatt> TD[gone]: in the bitcoinj block gen + compare acceptance results to bitcoind tool, it requires a very minimal patch to bitcoind (different genesis block, lower mindiff/etc), do you mind if I check that patch into bitcoinj?
 852 2012-08-06 16:49:09 <OneEyed> I witnessed a funny bug with armory, where one of my unconfirmed incoming transaction was included in a block that went orphaned later. Armory lost any trace of the transaction altogether. That's surprising :)
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 862 2012-08-06 17:25:31 <Joric> blockchain.info just added brainwallet support at my request :P i close the ticket
 863 2012-08-06 17:26:46 <Joric> see https://blockchain.info/wallet import section
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 872 2012-08-06 17:42:13 <gmaxwell> Joric: Thats unfortunate.
 873 2012-08-06 17:43:06 <Joric> not HD just sha256 of the passphrase
 874 2012-08-06 17:43:16 <gmaxwell> Yes, thats what makes it unfortunate.
 875 2012-08-06 17:43:53 <gmaxwell> Did you disclose that your first development related to brainwallets was performing a dictionary attack and then taking the resulting coins?
 876 2012-08-06 17:45:55 <gmaxwell> Or that the developers of every other piece of client software have avoided implementing the functionality have intentionally omitted this functionality because of the extreme insecurity, the difficulty for users to assess the insecurity, and that alternative methods are significantly more secure?
 877 2012-08-06 17:46:01 <Joric> no! it's unethical! (unless it's a sha256 of 'fuckyou') i only tried 5 mln of most used passwords without permutations
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 879 2012-08-06 17:46:34 <Joric> didn't really get anything, like literally, 0 except this 'fuckyou' passphrase :)
 880 2012-08-06 17:46:55 <sipa> how many coins did it have?
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 882 2012-08-06 17:47:05 <Joric> 0.025
 883 2012-08-06 17:48:39 <gmaxwell> Seriously, SHA256 of some user provided string is a joke.  People call websites incompetent for having password hashing which is 500x stronger than that and their hashed password's aren't published for the world or directly valuable.
 884 2012-08-06 17:49:20 <gmaxwell> Most password advice, even good advice, isn't accounting for attackers which can do millions of attempts per second.
 885 2012-08-06 17:49:23 <TD> somebody did a dictionary attack and found 7btc
 886 2012-08-06 17:50:04 <gmaxwell> And certantly isn't for attackers that get huge precomputation and multiple-unsalted-target speedup.
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 888 2012-08-06 17:50:21 <Joric> TD, where?
 889 2012-08-06 17:50:21 <Tykling> TD: what, by just generating new addresses until they found one that had some btc on it ?
 890 2012-08-06 17:50:25 <TD> yes
 891 2012-08-06 17:50:28 <Tykling> lol
 892 2012-08-06 17:50:28 <TD> it was on the forums
 893 2012-08-06 17:50:50 <gmaxwell> Tykling: No, by generating addresses based on 'passwords'.
 894 2012-08-06 17:50:50 <sipa> not uniformly random addresses, i suppose
 895 2012-08-06 17:51:04 <gmaxwell> (thus "dictionary")
 896 2012-08-06 17:51:13 <BlueMatt> TD: in the bitcoinj block gen + compare acceptance results to bitcoind tool, it requires a very minimal patch to bitcoind (different genesis block, lower mindiff/etc), do you mind if I check that patch into bitcoinj?
 897 2012-08-06 17:51:32 <TD> not at all
 898 2012-08-06 17:51:42 <TD> you mean put a .patch file into git?
 899 2012-08-06 17:51:46 <Tykling> gmaxwell: I dont understand, based on passwords how ?
 900 2012-08-06 17:51:46 <BlueMatt> yea
 901 2012-08-06 17:52:12 <Joric> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97147.0 <- Results of dictionary attack on SHA256 hashed keys
 902 2012-08-06 17:52:40 <TD> sure
 903 2012-08-06 17:52:54 <gmaxwell> Tykling: joric and some others promote people genrating private keys based on SHA256 of some user provided passwords/phrases. Most people aren't aware of how powerful the attacks against this sort of thing are.
 904 2012-08-06 17:53:58 <TD> it's less risky if you use a very intense hash, like a 5 second scrypt run
 905 2012-08-06 17:54:01 <TD> but still risky
 906 2012-08-06 17:54:24 <TD> especially if there's nothing beyond the user-chosen password
 907 2012-08-06 17:54:25 <Tykling> what lol, that seems pretty dumb given, well, what you said
 908 2012-08-06 17:54:26 <jgarzik> TD: is there a leveldb architecture or design paper anywhere?
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 910 2012-08-06 17:54:40 <jgarzik> TD: I've read bigtable-osdi06.pdf, but that's about it.
 911 2012-08-06 17:54:48 <TD> http://leveldb.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/impl.html
 912 2012-08-06 17:55:02 <gmaxwell> TD: yes, something like a 5 second scrypt run should be the minimum. Unforunately, thats incompatible with goofy JS tools.
 913 2012-08-06 17:55:05 <TD> yeah there are some format docs
 914 2012-08-06 17:55:15 <TD> for general design thoughts the bigtable paper is the right thing
 915 2012-08-06 17:55:16 <gmaxwell> because that 5 second scrypt run is either uselessly weak, or it takes an hour.
 916 2012-08-06 17:55:25 <TD> leveldb is just a "core of tabletserver in a library" more or less
 917 2012-08-06 17:55:29 <Joric> i proposed a scary warning like one on bitaddress.org but puik didn't really add anything about password strength
 918 2012-08-06 17:55:59 <Joric> well, it's 15 chars min
 919 2012-08-06 17:56:00 <TD> Joric: fail.
 920 2012-08-06 17:56:07 <gmaxwell> 15 chars min doesn't make it secure.
 921 2012-08-06 17:56:11 <TD> it helps
 922 2012-08-06 17:56:21 <TD> but not if the 15 char password is a word, or something
 923 2012-08-06 17:56:31 <TD> brute forcing all possibilities with video cards starts to break at about 8-9 iirc
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 925 2012-08-06 17:57:00 <gmaxwell> It doesn't really help much— because users are quite likely to repeat a short password twice to meet the criteria.
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 928 2012-08-06 18:00:04 <BlueMatt> heh, yay! bitcoin-qt unit tests are faling on master and no one noticed, guess jenkins might just have been good for something
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 930 2012-08-06 18:02:00 <TD> jgarzik: ok, it's not exactly tabletserver in a box. tablet servers have no concept of levels
 931 2012-08-06 18:02:28 <TD> their tablet structure is a little simpler
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 933 2012-08-06 18:03:32 <jgarzik> TD: one of my long term projects/desires is for an embedded table API, of which key/value may be a common case subset.  multi-column, index any columns you like with hash or btree, etc.
 934 2012-08-06 18:03:50 <TD> ok. sounds like sqlite
 935 2012-08-06 18:03:50 <jgarzik> _not_ SQL, which imposes data type and other unwanted constraints
 936 2012-08-06 18:04:19 <TD> ok
 937 2012-08-06 18:04:23 <jgarzik> TD: I might be able to hack leveldb into something like what I want, which is neat
 938 2012-08-06 18:04:26 <TD> bigtable supports indexes and other things in later versions
 939 2012-08-06 18:04:40 <TD> so i guess it's possible. it supports write batches that are atomically committed
 940 2012-08-06 18:04:42 <jgarzik> TD: yeah... basically a bit like an embedded bigtable.
 941 2012-08-06 18:04:43 <TD> so i guess you'd do it that way
 942 2012-08-06 18:05:58 <gribble> New news from bitcoinrss: TheBlueMatt opened issue 1657 on bitcoin/bitcoin <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1657>
 943 2012-08-06 18:06:23 <Joric> even 'I l0ve Bitcoin soo0 very much!!!1' is very vulnerable i guess, not really sure though
 944 2012-08-06 18:08:46 <Joric> maybe not, if 'correct horse battery staple' considered secure
 945 2012-08-06 18:10:26 <BlueMatt> 'correct horse battery staple' is considered secure for a remote website assuming brute forcing over http, if you get the db, correct horse battery staple really isnt all that secure
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 955 2012-08-06 18:26:04 <Cryo> ooh invoked xkcd
 956 2012-08-06 18:28:34 <gmaxwell> Joric: it's "considered secure" assuming an attacker bounded at something like 1000 requests per second. (and assuming an RNG picked the words, not the user)
 957 2012-08-06 18:28:58 <gmaxwell> For an offline attack that can run at a billion attempts per second you'd find one from that space in a couple of hours.
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 965 2012-08-06 18:37:02 <Joric> with a trilion attempts (new BFL rig?) it'd be 7 seconds ;)
 966 2012-08-06 18:37:02 <gmaxwell> I'm fixing a bunch of stuff in listaddressgroupings.
 967 2012-08-06 18:37:29 <gmaxwell> It currently ignores unconfirmed transactions. I'm thinking it shouldn't do this. Thoughts?
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 997 2012-08-06 19:15:55 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I agree
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1003 2012-08-06 19:26:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/shatest/test.html
1004 2012-08-06 19:26:17 <sipa> that's the algorithm we've been discussion with etotheipi
1005 2012-08-06 19:26:47 <sipa> but lower complexity than proposed (10,11,12,13,... bits instead of 16,18,20,...)
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1010 2012-08-06 19:46:42 <roconnor> sipa: every passphrase I've tried there is invalid
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1013 2012-08-06 19:51:33 <sipa> roconnor: that's intentional
1014 2012-08-06 19:51:42 <sipa> they are not to be generated by humans
1015 2012-08-06 19:51:50 <sipa> intended
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1019 2012-08-06 19:55:49 <roconnor> sipa: passphrases are not intended to be generated by humans?
1020 2012-08-06 19:56:17 <roconnor> ah
1021 2012-08-06 19:56:19 <roconnor> I see
1022 2012-08-06 19:56:22 <roconnor> there is a generate button
1023 2012-08-06 19:57:07 <jgarzik> w00t!  pynode full validates mainnet and testnet3 chains.
1024 2012-08-06 19:57:12 <jgarzik> *fully
1025 2012-08-06 19:57:16 <roconnor> sipa: BTW, diceware recommends not having spaces in a passphrase because the space bar usually makes a disctinctive click on keyboards.
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1027 2012-08-06 19:57:36 <roconnor> sipa: the loss of entropy due to losing spaces is persumably very small.
1028 2012-08-06 19:57:41 <ersi> jgarzik: Yay! Good job!
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1030 2012-08-06 19:59:42 <sipa> roconnor: it's intended to have the iterations compensate the loss of entropy entirely
1031 2012-08-06 20:00:05 <sipa> so at 10 bit strength, the "checksum" is 5 bits, and one passphrase in 32 is valid
1032 2012-08-06 20:00:22 <sipa> but there will also be 32 iterations before finding out whether it's correct
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1034 2012-08-06 20:00:36 <roconnor> sipa: okay; but the larger point is that passphrases shouldn't have spaces.
1035 2012-08-06 20:01:09 <roconnor> or at least the spaces shouldn't count when deriving the key material
1036 2012-08-06 20:01:29 <sipa> roconnor: i suppose i'll make it space and case insensitive
1037 2012-08-06 20:02:00 <roconnor> :)
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1043 2012-08-06 20:17:53 <sipa> roconnor: there is some math behind it though, if you're interested (very dense, i fear): https://gist.github.com/2731997
1044 2012-08-06 20:20:34 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: congrats, well done
1045 2012-08-06 20:21:22 <sipa> jgarzik: nice one, indeed!
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1048 2012-08-06 20:26:51 <luke-jr> someone want to pull gmp_bip finally? -.-
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1081 2012-08-06 21:34:07 <OneEyed> This is the address corresponding to private key 1 (in hexa): http://blockchain.info/address/1EHNa6Q4Jz2uvNExL497mE43ikXhwF6kZm
1082 2012-08-06 21:34:19 <OneEyed> I'm surprised that noone played with it before January 2012 :)
1083 2012-08-06 21:34:40 <sipa> that's not hexadecimal
1084 2012-08-06 21:34:47 <OneEyed> 0000000…0001
1085 2012-08-06 21:35:00 <sipa> oooh; apologies, i misunderstood
1086 2012-08-06 21:35:19 <OneEyed> And to put 0.0666 BTC, I guess this was not someone who stumbled upon it by chance :)
1087 2012-08-06 21:35:41 <BlueMatt> OneEyed: that doesnt indicate people playing with it, it indicates coding issues
1088 2012-08-06 21:35:47 <BlueMatt> (at least one of them my fault)
1089 2012-08-06 21:35:53 <BlueMatt> (though not my coins)
1090 2012-08-06 21:36:14 <BlueMatt> oh, wait, no that was pubkeyhash 1
1091 2012-08-06 21:36:19 <BlueMatt> or pubkey 1
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1095 2012-08-06 21:36:27 <BlueMatt> anyway, I bet those are coding errors
1096 2012-08-06 21:36:32 <OneEyed> BlueMatt: and it was fixed in 9 blocks (time between deposit and withdrawal)?
1097 2012-08-06 21:37:02 <BlueMatt> having a coding issue which adds 1 to your wallet doesnt mean you cant spend it
1098 2012-08-06 21:37:21 <OneEyed> Oh, sure
1099 2012-08-06 21:37:30 <OneEyed> But I know I was going to play with this address if it had been empty :)
1100 2012-08-06 21:37:39 <OneEyed> So I guess someone must have done so too.
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1106 2012-08-06 21:44:08 <Joric> "<gmaxwell> For an offline attack that can run at a billion attempts per second you'd find one from that space in a couple of hours." how many ecdsa keys per second you may get?
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1108 2012-08-06 21:45:23 <Joric> i just tried got less than 1000 keys per second on my celeron, and the only operation is EC_POINT_mul from openssl
1109 2012-08-06 21:46:39 <BlueMatt> a gpu could run pretty significantly faster
1110 2012-08-06 21:46:58 <BlueMatt> or a custom fgpa
1111 2012-08-06 21:47:09 <luke-jr> or a standard fpga <.<
1112 2012-08-06 21:47:09 <BlueMatt> s/custom fgpa/fpga/
1113 2012-08-06 21:47:31 <BlueMatt> wrote custom asic, then ^H'd to fpga...
1114 2012-08-06 21:47:47 <sipa> iirc, vanitygen does several million per second
1115 2012-08-06 21:47:57 <sipa> but it only does an EC_POINT_add
1116 2012-08-06 21:48:08 <sipa> multiplying is several hundred adds
1117 2012-08-06 21:48:16 <Joric> yeah, the point is it's really not that easy
1118 2012-08-06 21:48:41 <sipa> easy doesn't really matter; only one person needs to implement it
1119 2012-08-06 21:48:43 <Joric> thousands, not billions/trillions
1120 2012-08-06 21:48:57 <BlueMatt> and a thousand separate computers in a botnet?
1121 2012-08-06 21:49:12 <BlueMatt> or a thousand computers of a thousand individuals doing their own tests?
1122 2012-08-06 21:49:18 <sipa> still, using human-generated passphrases as seed for keys is looking for trouble
1123 2012-08-06 21:49:49 <jgarzik> sipa: that compromise is and always will be present and inevitable
1124 2012-08-06 21:49:57 <BlueMatt> "what, 'Th1$I$$3cure' isnt a secure passphrase?"
1125 2012-08-06 21:50:01 <jgarzik> sipa: you're working with humans, and it's fundamentally a human UI
1126 2012-08-06 21:50:19 <sipa> and?
1127 2012-08-06 21:50:35 <jgarzik> if blah is computer-generated passphrase, then the human has to put in extra work to store it
1128 2012-08-06 21:51:19 <BlueMatt> there are cases where its a fair compromise, and there are cases where it doesnt make that much sense
1129 2012-08-06 21:51:30 <sipa> sure some people know enough about information theory to come up with secure seeds
1130 2012-08-06 21:52:14 <sipa> but if you allow human-generated passphrases, you're exposing them to attacks
1131 2012-08-06 21:52:32 <sipa> you can't prevent people from being stupid, but you can make it hard to do so
1132 2012-08-06 21:53:17 <gmaxwell> It's all a question of setting the right paths of least resistance.
1133 2012-08-06 21:53:45 <gmaxwell> Joric: With GPU code here I get 14 million per second per 5830.
1134 2012-08-06 21:54:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: if that's vanitygen, it's only doing an EC addition + hashing per key
1135 2012-08-06 21:54:17 <Joric> gmaxwell, 14 million bignum multiplications a second? really?
1136 2012-08-06 21:54:36 <gmaxwell> Ah, as sipa points out it only periodically does the increments.
1137 2012-08-06 21:54:38 <sipa> and EC multiplications are a few hundred times slower
1138 2012-08-06 21:55:02 <Joric> gmaxwell, yeah, i just tried that in the wild, got 1000 keys/s on CPU
1139 2012-08-06 21:55:20 <gmaxwell> But it's still irrelevant because an FPGA implementation can do the EC multiply with less gatecount than sha256 assuming routing doesn't hate it for so many xors.
1140 2012-08-06 21:55:59 <sipa> still, i expect a GPU to easily do 20k keys/s
1141 2012-08-06 21:56:42 <Joric> i have a really lousy cpu here though, celeron 550, 1 core
1142 2012-08-06 21:57:36 <meelu> anyone know how to setup bitcoind on ubuntu, i couldn't find no make file :S
1143 2012-08-06 21:57:40 <gmaxwell> Joric: right, and an attacker can potentially buy resources cheaply to build nice rainbow tables for this function... because the databases are reusable.
1144 2012-08-06 21:58:43 <sipa> meelu: cd src; make -f makefile.unix
1145 2012-08-06 21:59:14 ovidiuso1t has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1146 2012-08-06 21:59:47 <meelu> sipa, thank you so much
1147 2012-08-06 22:01:35 <meelu> sipa
1148 2012-08-06 22:01:36 <meelu> g++: Internal error: Killed (program cc1plus)
1149 2012-08-06 22:01:36 <meelu> Please submit a full bug report.
1150 2012-08-06 22:01:45 <sipa> how much RAM do you have?
1151 2012-08-06 22:01:52 <meelu> 256 :D
1152 2012-08-06 22:02:15 <meelu> mb
1153 2012-08-06 22:02:17 <gmaxwell> Add swap then.
1154 2012-08-06 22:02:24 <gmaxwell> And hopefully you're very patient.
1155 2012-08-06 22:02:50 <meelu> can't add more ram
1156 2012-08-06 22:03:17 <gmaxwell> If you can't add ram and you can't add swap, then you can't compile bitcoin.
1157 2012-08-06 22:03:18 <Joric> that's so cute, just like my celeron
1158 2012-08-06 22:03:52 <meelu> its a little cloud vps im going to order more ram just developing at the moment
1159 2012-08-06 22:04:00 <gmaxwell> meelu: go compile it on another computer. Also, with that small an amount of ram you'll want to limit it to one or two connections.
1160 2012-08-06 22:05:04 <meelu> sudo apt-get install bitcoind
1161 2012-08-06 22:05:06 <meelu> no problems
1162 2012-08-06 22:05:07 <meelu> :D
1163 2012-08-06 22:05:28 <meelu> i hope
1164 2012-08-06 22:06:13 <BlueMatt> meelu: the version of bitcoind in ubuntu and debian is very, very old and vulnerable to several security issues
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1167 2012-08-06 22:06:27 <meelu> how do i check version?
1168 2012-08-06 22:06:43 <BlueMatt> meelu: if you're on ubuntu: apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin; apt-get update; apt-get install bitcoind
1169 2012-08-06 22:06:47 <meelu> Setting up bitcoind (0.6.3-natty2) .
1170 2012-08-06 22:06:50 <meelu> :D not so old
1171 2012-08-06 22:07:03 <BlueMatt> oh, thats the ppa version already
1172 2012-08-06 22:07:40 <meelu> last time i came to this chan about a week ago everyone told me to sod off as its for bitcoin dev, glad i got some help thanks
1173 2012-08-06 22:07:50 <meelu> i thought it was for bitcoin related dev too
1174 2012-08-06 22:07:55 <BlueMatt> thats rare...
1175 2012-08-06 22:08:03 <meelu> maybe i dreamt it
1176 2012-08-06 22:08:18 <BlueMatt> usually you just get ignored if there are there are other discussions going on
1177 2012-08-06 22:08:27 <BlueMatt> or, if not, then you get ignored because no one's here
1178 2012-08-06 22:08:50 <meelu> thanks anyway because i'm working on a big project
1179 2012-08-06 22:09:05 <meelu> lots of bitcoin transactions
1180 2012-08-06 22:09:54 <BlueMatt> please appropriately use sendmulti
1181 2012-08-06 22:10:00 <BlueMatt> dont be another satoshidice
1182 2012-08-06 22:10:23 <meelu> im going to chek that out
1183 2012-08-06 22:10:55 <meelu> oh
1184 2012-08-06 22:10:56 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1185 2012-08-06 22:10:58 <meelu> ok will do
1186 2012-08-06 22:11:11 <BlueMatt> thanks
1187 2012-08-06 22:11:20 <meelu> whats the disadvantage? optimisation?
1188 2012-08-06 22:11:40 <meelu> i mean i should use it for optimisation right
1189 2012-08-06 22:11:42 <meelu> sorry
1190 2012-08-06 22:11:45 <sipa> fewer but larger transactions
1191 2012-08-06 22:11:49 <sipa> and you have to use it
1192 2012-08-06 22:12:01 <BlueMatt> it takes a bit more effort to code for sendmulti, but it puts less load on your personal bitcoind, as well as the entire network
1193 2012-08-06 22:12:36 <meelu> i can't find much info on sendmulti even 9on google
1194 2012-08-06 22:12:37 <luke-jr> sendmany*
1195 2012-08-06 22:12:50 <BlueMatt> eh, yea, sendmany
1196 2012-08-06 22:12:52 <meelu> oh
1197 2012-08-06 22:12:52 <meelu> ok
1198 2012-08-06 22:13:35 <luke-jr> meelu: and if you don't use sendmany, the network will react as if you are attacking ;)
1199 2012-08-06 22:13:56 <meelu> is this for recieving payments
1200 2012-08-06 22:14:01 <BlueMatt> sending
1201 2012-08-06 22:14:02 <luke-jr> for sending
1202 2012-08-06 22:14:18 <meelu> alright, i'l mostly be recieving at the moment till i launch affiliate program
1203 2012-08-06 22:14:27 <meelu> but thanks
1204 2012-08-06 22:14:51 <luke-jr> I like that. "I only receive money, never send it"
1205 2012-08-06 22:14:53 <luke-jr> :p
1206 2012-08-06 22:15:08 <meelu> :D
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1209 2012-08-06 22:17:19 <meelu> is the rpc secure against brute force attacks?
1210 2012-08-06 22:17:33 <sipa> you shouldn't expose your RPC interface to the internet
1211 2012-08-06 22:18:17 <meelu> il use -rpcallowip= for now
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1221 2012-08-06 22:28:39 <luke-jr> meelu: in short, no
1222 2012-08-06 22:29:35 <meelu> no?
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1234 2012-08-06 22:35:07 <midnightmagic> meelu: I guess it depends on your definition of "secure". For most peoples' definitions, the rpc port bitcoind accepts commands on is not "secure" against brute force attacks.
1235 2012-08-06 22:35:25 <BlueMatt> I would hate to call it secure against anything, really
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1237 2012-08-06 22:35:53 <BlueMatt> its not gonna fall over against nothing, but dont expose it to the internet
1238 2012-08-06 22:36:16 <midnightmagic> well it's hard to make blanket statements, so i try to avoid doing that when they've asked a specific question..
1239 2012-08-06 22:36:31 <midnightmagic>  ^authoritatively make^
1240 2012-08-06 22:37:24 <BlueMatt> that wasnt an authoritative statement, I was a statement that Id prefer to not make any positive statements supporting the rpc system's security at all
1241 2012-08-06 22:37:27 <BlueMatt> ;)
1242 2012-08-06 22:38:01 <midnightmagic> no, yea, that's what I mean. We can fairly authoritatively state that it's not secure against brute force "attacks" but it's hard to do the same as a generic statement of security :)
1243 2012-08-06 22:41:13 <meelu> isn't -rpcallowip= safe enough
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1245 2012-08-06 22:41:40 <BlueMatt> better question: why cant you just bind to a local address?
1246 2012-08-06 22:42:37 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: because he wants to access it from another machine obviously :P
1247 2012-08-06 22:42:57 <luke-jr> meelu: be sure to at least enable SSL, and verify the cert on the client end
1248 2012-08-06 22:42:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but that doesnt preclude listening on a local-net address
1249 2012-08-06 22:43:12 <luke-jr> meelu: otherwise, the password can be sniffed by anyone*
1250 2012-08-06 22:43:23 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: there are no local-net addresses anymore ;)
1251 2012-08-06 22:43:23 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
1252 2012-08-06 22:43:44 <BlueMatt> ?
1253 2012-08-06 22:44:01 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: since IPv6, basically all addresses are globally routable
1254 2012-08-06 22:44:06 <luke-jr> IP-based authentication is stupid anyway
1255 2012-08-06 22:44:09 <BlueMatt> uhh...no
1256 2012-08-06 22:44:12 <BlueMatt> fe80?
1257 2012-08-06 22:44:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: link-local doesn't traverse routers, and I don't think bitcoind supports it
1258 2012-08-06 22:44:34 <luke-jr> since you need to specify an interface explicitly
1259 2012-08-06 22:44:43 <BlueMatt> yes, it is, but my point is you shouldnt listen on anything that will pass a router
1260 2012-08-06 22:44:55 <BlueMatt> oh, we cant listen per-address?
1261 2012-08-06 22:45:06 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: per-address isn't enough
1262 2012-08-06 22:45:13 <luke-jr> you need to explicitly bind by the interface
1263 2012-08-06 22:45:17 <luke-jr> eg, eth0 or whatever
1264 2012-08-06 22:45:27 <luke-jr> since the same address is valid on any interface
1265 2012-08-06 22:45:38 <BlueMatt> yes, and we cant do that?
1266 2012-08-06 22:45:48 <luke-jr> not afaik
1267 2012-08-06 22:45:57 <BlueMatt> darn...so use ipv4
1268 2012-08-06 22:45:58 <luke-jr> I'm not sure there's even a platform-independent way to do it yet?
1269 2012-08-06 22:46:39 <Dagger2> there is always the option of using a firewall
1270 2012-08-06 22:48:00 <luke-jr> true
1271 2012-08-06 22:48:23 <luke-jr> but anyhow, I'd guess meelu wants something across the WAN
1272 2012-08-06 22:48:29 <luke-jr> so SSL with client cert check should work
1273 2012-08-06 22:49:02 <meelu> i was actually just going to connect to localhost for now and do stuff later
1274 2012-08-06 22:49:06 <luke-jr> XD
1275 2012-08-06 22:49:13 <BlueMatt> heh, clever, libpng uses DO_NOT_READ_ME, seems like that should get a lot more reads
1276 2012-08-06 22:49:31 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1277 2012-08-06 22:49:51 <Dagger2> there's always IPsec... :)
1278 2012-08-06 22:50:06 <Dagger2> which I discovered is actually fairly easy to use on Linux
1279 2012-08-06 22:50:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm?
1280 2012-08-06 22:50:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: s/README.txt/DO_NOT_README.txt/
1281 2012-08-06 22:50:52 <sipa> ah!
1282 2012-08-06 22:52:35 <meelu> HASH(0x2a27d38) When i output getinfo is this normal?
1283 2012-08-06 22:53:51 <sipa> which language is that?
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1285 2012-08-06 22:54:01 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1286 2012-08-06 22:54:11 <luke-jr> Perl
1287 2012-08-06 22:54:16 <luke-jr> meelu: use Data::Dumper
1288 2012-08-06 22:54:24 <meelu> alright thanks
1289 2012-08-06 22:54:32 B0g4r7 has joined
1290 2012-08-06 22:55:01 <sipa> indeed, you can't print a hash directly in perl
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1293 2012-08-06 23:09:55 <midnightmagic> Data::Dumper, how do I love thee, let me count the ways..
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1295 2012-08-06 23:11:37 <jgarzik> sadly, I think python has won me over from Perl
1296 2012-08-06 23:11:59 <jgarzik> for a decade, anything not in C was written in Perl, here
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