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  20 2012-08-08 00:46:09 <denisx> what is the name of the Diablominer coder?
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  22 2012-08-08 00:47:54 <BlueMatt> woo, pull-tester seems to be working well, Ill start it up testing all existing pulls when #1658  gets merged (otherwise all pulls will fail, and issues in the bitcoin-qt_test suite will not be identified)
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  24 2012-08-08 00:48:17 <copumpkin> denisx: probably Diablo-D3?
  25 2012-08-08 00:48:32 <denisx> ah, ok. simply not online right now
  26 2012-08-08 00:51:49 <denisx> is cgminer the only client which supports the midstate X-Mining-Extension
  27 2012-08-08 00:51:49 <denisx> ?
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  33 2012-08-08 01:04:32 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: pulled, get cracking ;-)
  34 2012-08-08 01:05:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: will do...wait a few days and you should get results ;)
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  50 2012-08-08 01:28:21 <Graph_Theory> I am looking for moderators and administrators for a new Bit Coin community. http://www.bitcoinfans.com Please register on the forum if you are interested. Pay is possible for admins in the future.
  51 2012-08-08 01:28:52 <Gladamas> What's the difference between that and Bitcointalk?
  52 2012-08-08 01:29:03 <BlueMatt> anyone happen to have a serialized version of 4005d6bea3a93fb72f006d23e2685b85069d270cb57d15f0c057ef2d5e3f78d2 lying around (the now-famous invalid p2sh tx that continuously forks old miners)
  53 2012-08-08 01:29:05 <Graph_Theory> bitcointalk is just a forum
  54 2012-08-08 01:29:08 <Graph_Theory> this is a whole community
  55 2012-08-08 01:29:12 <Graph_Theory> it will have a market
  56 2012-08-08 01:29:13 <Graph_Theory> blog
  57 2012-08-08 01:29:14 ivan` has joined
  58 2012-08-08 01:29:15 <Graph_Theory> forum
  59 2012-08-08 01:29:18 <Graph_Theory> news updates
  60 2012-08-08 01:29:24 <Graph_Theory> scripts
  61 2012-08-08 01:29:37 <Graph_Theory> Motto: Everything about Bit Coins!
  62 2012-08-08 01:29:43 <Graph_Theory> this is not just a forum
  63 2012-08-08 01:29:46 <Graph_Theory> it is only a forum to start with
  64 2012-08-08 01:29:52 <Graph_Theory> so i need members to make it more
  65 2012-08-08 01:31:11 <edcba> bitcointalk is just a forum while your forum will be a community :)
  66 2012-08-08 01:31:32 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  67 2012-08-08 01:31:47 <Graph_Theory> it will not just be a forum
  68 2012-08-08 01:31:51 <Graph_Theory> the forum is only one page of it
  69 2012-08-08 01:32:01 <Gladamas> ah
  70 2012-08-08 01:32:03 <Graph_Theory> im just forwarding main page to forum
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  72 2012-08-08 01:32:11 <edcba> if the really only thing differentitating will be a blog it won't be very different
  73 2012-08-08 01:32:20 <Gladamas> i could join, but i probably wouldn't be on it much
  74 2012-08-08 01:33:04 <Graph_Theory> as many things different as possible
  75 2012-08-08 01:33:08 <Graph_Theory> marketplace
  76 2012-08-08 01:33:11 <Graph_Theory> forums
  77 2012-08-08 01:33:13 <Graph_Theory> blog
  78 2012-08-08 01:33:16 <Graph_Theory> scripts
  79 2012-08-08 01:33:23 <Graph_Theory> and thats just what i can think of right now
  80 2012-08-08 01:33:27 <Graph_Theory> please join and tell ppl
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  84 2012-08-08 01:34:02 <dub> I'll join if you refuse to allow anyone with more than 100 bitcointalk posts to join
  85 2012-08-08 01:34:04 <Graph_Theory> directory
  86 2012-08-08 01:34:34 <Graph_Theory> dub > unfortunately, i cannot do that. but i can come up with other rules that will shut them up
  87 2012-08-08 01:35:13 <Graph_Theory> this is a democratic forum
  88 2012-08-08 01:35:15 <Graph_Theory> http://www.bitcoinfans.com/forums/
  89 2012-08-08 01:35:20 <Graph_Theory> everyone can petition to be moderator
  90 2012-08-08 01:35:29 <Graph_Theory> and u can suggest categories and forums
  91 2012-08-08 01:41:14 Graph_Theory has left ()
  92 2012-08-08 01:41:20 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/blk0001.dat.bz2 might have some invalid P2SH in there
  93 2012-08-08 01:43:09 <BlueMatt> thanks Ill search it
  94 2012-08-08 01:43:18 <BlueMatt> or...meh, maybe Ill just make one
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  97 2012-08-08 01:46:53 <lianj> jgarzik: did you try to run 3a17dace09ffb919ed627a93f1873220f4c975c1248558b18d16bce25d38c4b7 ?
  98 2012-08-08 01:47:28 <jgarzik> lianj: run?  you mean verify with pynode?  if that is a tx in testnet3 or mainnet, yes.
  99 2012-08-08 01:47:58 Graph_Theory has joined
 100 2012-08-08 01:48:01 <Graph_Theory> http://www.bitcoinfans.com/forums/
 101 2012-08-08 01:48:07 <Graph_Theory> I wanna see some members
 102 2012-08-08 01:48:08 <Graph_Theory> and proposals
 103 2012-08-08 01:48:39 <BlueMatt> Graph_Theory: starting a new community is fine, promoting it some is fine, but please dont keep going on, this is a development channel, and its fairly off-topic
 104 2012-08-08 01:49:18 <Graph_Theory> alright got ya
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 128 2012-08-08 03:25:16 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #6: STILL FAILING in 2 hr 8 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/6/
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 130 2012-08-08 03:36:07 <luke-jr> jgarzik: ping
 131 2012-08-08 03:41:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: pong
 132 2012-08-08 03:42:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it has come to my attention that AMD's ADL SDK (for reading temperatures etc from AMD GPUs) is incompatible with the GPL, and I have been distributing binaries built linking originally-cpuminer code combined with it
 133 2012-08-08 03:42:42 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I wanted to request a re-issuance of the license to the cpuminer code; I have removed the ADL SDK dependency
 134 2012-08-08 03:43:00 <luke-jr> (by replacing it with interface-only headers which are not copyrightable)
 135 2012-08-08 03:43:42 <jgarzik> luke-jr: what is a re-issuance of a license?
 136 2012-08-08 03:44:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: permission to use the code under the GPL again, since I infringed on it (unknowingly)
 137 2012-08-08 03:44:35 <luke-jr> actually, I guess the GPLv3 has the cure clause… which brings up another question: did you agree to the change of license to GPLv3?
 138 2012-08-08 03:47:23 <luke-jr> ok, sorry, did my homework… cpuminer said GPLv2-or-later, so I guess I'm ok
 139 2012-08-08 03:47:48 <midnightmagic> that partly depends on whether it's gplv2 pure (in which case it says "or at your option any later version blah")
 140 2012-08-08 03:48:53 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: yeah, I looked up the last git revision Jeff committed to, and it has the "or at your option…" clause in the headers
 141 2012-08-08 03:50:15 <lianj> jgarzik: if verify with pyhone means runnning the script and verify the signatures then yes
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 146 2012-08-08 04:03:10 <Ferroh> so can't Electrum just not bother with keystretching (hashing 100000 times), and instead just add 4 characters to the password (making it millions of times harder to crack)?
 147 2012-08-08 04:03:34 <Ferroh> or does hashing 100k times actually make it more than millions of times stronger?
 148 2012-08-08 04:05:00 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: electrum uses words to make the password easier to remember.
 149 2012-08-08 04:05:09 maqr has joined
 150 2012-08-08 04:05:14 <Ferroh> s/password/seed
 151 2012-08-08 04:05:27 <Ferroh> to crack an electrum wallet, you only need to start generating seeds
 152 2012-08-08 04:05:28 <gmaxwell> Four easily memorable characters do no increase the entropy that much.
 153 2012-08-08 04:05:41 <Ferroh> the seed is a random sequence of lowercase letters and numbers
 154 2012-08-08 04:05:45 <Ferroh> and is 32 chars long
 155 2012-08-08 04:06:16 <Ferroh> to generate an electrum bitcoin address, you hash the seed 100k times to get the master public key, then you do a couple more hashes
 156 2012-08-08 04:06:32 <Ferroh> so what im asking is
 157 2012-08-08 04:06:35 <gmaxwell> Yes, I know.
 158 2012-08-08 04:06:37 <Ferroh> why bother hashing the seed 100k times
 159 2012-08-08 04:06:47 <Ferroh> isnt it just as good to make the seed a few chars longer?
 160 2012-08-08 04:07:06 <gmaxwell> Because it increases the work an attacker must do— e.g. when attacking a partially disclosed or insecurely derrived seed.
 161 2012-08-08 04:07:15 <Ferroh> so does increasing the seed by 3 chars
 162 2012-08-08 04:07:21 <gmaxwell> And the 100k iterations should take about 100ms, it's effectively free.
 163 2012-08-08 04:07:30 <Ferroh> it takes ~2000ms
 164 2012-08-08 04:07:32 <Ferroh> in python
 165 2012-08-08 04:07:37 <gmaxwell> Then your software is crap. :)
 166 2012-08-08 04:07:43 <Ferroh> it is python :)
 167 2012-08-08 04:08:16 <gmaxwell> Ferroh: because increasing the seed by any N characters does not help if its insecurely generated or partially disclosed, and the increases result in more to memorize when encoded as recovery words.
 168 2012-08-08 04:08:38 <Ferroh> okay I guess that makes sense
 169 2012-08-08 04:10:10 <Ferroh> sigh, the python argparse module is almost 3000 lines of code :/
 170 2012-08-08 04:10:15 <Ferroh> apparently it is very hard to parse an argument
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 179 2012-08-08 04:26:30 <Ferroh> Does someone know the minimum possible length of a BTC address?
 180 2012-08-08 04:26:56 <Ferroh> (that is accepted natively by the bitcoind client)
 181 2012-08-08 04:28:42 <luke-jr> yes
 182 2012-08-08 04:28:53 <Ferroh> are you that someone?
 183 2012-08-08 04:29:46 <luke-jr> a lot of people are, it's a fairly easy calculation
 184 2012-08-08 04:30:06 <Ferroh> Since I don't know how to do said easy calculation,
 185 2012-08-08 04:30:13 <Ferroh> can you tell me what the minimum length is?
 186 2012-08-08 04:30:38 <luke-jr> >>> len(b58encode('\0'*(160/8+1)+'\xff\xff\xff\xff'))
 187 2012-08-08 04:30:39 <luke-jr> 27
 188 2012-08-08 04:30:46 <Ferroh> awesome, thank you
 189 2012-08-08 04:30:59 <Ferroh> how about the max? :)
 190 2012-08-08 04:31:35 RainbowDashh has joined
 191 2012-08-08 04:31:42 <luke-jr> >>> len(b58encode('\x05'+'\xff'*(160/8+4)))
 192 2012-08-08 04:31:43 <luke-jr> 34
 193 2012-08-08 04:32:00 <Ferroh> thanks again luke-jr :)
 194 2012-08-08 04:32:29 <luke-jr> 35 if you want to accept testnet
 195 2012-08-08 04:32:36 <Ferroh> i dont
 196 2012-08-08 04:32:47 <luke-jr> also note that addresses do not all start with 1
 197 2012-08-08 04:32:58 <Ferroh> .. they dont?
 198 2012-08-08 04:33:00 <luke-jr> newer ones start with 3
 199 2012-08-08 04:33:12 <Ferroh> wtf
 200 2012-08-08 04:33:13 <luke-jr> eg 3P14159f73E4gFr7JterCCQh9QjiTjiZrG
 201 2012-08-08 04:33:51 <Ferroh> er
 202 2012-08-08 04:34:01 <Ferroh> lots of people have written validation that will dail on that then
 203 2012-08-08 04:34:03 <Ferroh> *fail
 204 2012-08-08 04:34:07 <Ferroh> e.g. electrum:
 205 2012-08-08 04:34:07 <Ferroh>     ADDRESS_RE = re.compile('[1-9A-HJ-NP-Za-km-z]{26,}\\Z')
 206 2012-08-08 04:34:08 <Ferroh>     if not ADDRESS_RE.match(addr): return False
 207 2012-08-08 04:34:08 <luke-jr> they should fix it :P
 208 2012-08-08 04:34:17 <Ferroh> oh
 209 2012-08-08 04:34:19 <luke-jr> well, clients need to know *how* to send to it too
 210 2012-08-08 04:34:19 <Ferroh> that actually passes
 211 2012-08-08 04:34:24 <Ferroh> "1-9"
 212 2012-08-08 04:34:27 <luke-jr> :p\
 213 2012-08-08 04:37:39 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes you have permission to use GPL code once again :)
 214 2012-08-08 04:40:00 <luke-jr> jgarzik: thanks ☺
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 225 2012-08-08 06:05:30 <forrestv> "PUSH 129" encodes to "020081", right? and "PUSH -5" to "0185"?
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 227 2012-08-08 06:06:18 <forrestv> ah, this is in the intro on the Script page, nvm
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 337 2012-08-08 11:19:03 <epscy> how can i get a list of all addresses i have used from bitcoind
 338 2012-08-08 11:19:21 <epscy> getaddressesbyaccount only gives me 45 addresses
 339 2012-08-08 11:19:29 <epscy> i am sure i have used more than that
 340 2012-08-08 11:21:43 nickrb has joined
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 343 2012-08-08 11:25:36 <spitteler> writing a php script for Silver and Gold prices to BTC but i have an error somewhere and could use another set of eyes.  I can pastebin the code if any php guru can give me a few moments of their time :)
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 351 2012-08-08 11:45:23 <SomeoneWeird> spitteler, join #coinabul and type @gold
 352 2012-08-08 11:45:24 <SomeoneWeird> :)
 353 2012-08-08 11:46:11 <coingenuity> spitteler: http://coinabul.com/api.php
 354 2012-08-08 11:46:12 <coingenuity> ;)
 355 2012-08-08 11:47:04 <spitteler> Someone looking to add it to my own website, i have it mostly working but for some reason line 89 is giving me trouble (incorrect output)  http://pastebin.com/JmZE0hSZ    i added line 74 and 75 to debug, but that is giving me the corect output
 356 2012-08-08 11:47:11 <spitteler> not sure exactly whats wrong
 357 2012-08-08 11:47:23 <SomeoneWeird> your own site?
 358 2012-08-08 11:47:23 <SomeoneWeird> for?
 359 2012-08-08 11:49:10 <spitteler> purchasing silver :)
 360 2012-08-08 11:49:22 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
 361 2012-08-08 11:49:31 <SomeoneWeird> got some competition coingenuity :P
 362 2012-08-08 11:49:54 <coingenuity> lol SomeoneWeird
 363 2012-08-08 11:50:14 ThomasV has joined
 364 2012-08-08 11:50:34 <Goilio> Code works fine for me on my system...
 365 2012-08-08 11:50:55 <spitteler> for me it shows..   1oz Gold: $1,606.11
 366 2012-08-08 11:50:55 <spitteler> 1oz Gold = 0.0913 BTC
 367 2012-08-08 11:51:08 <coingenuity> lmfao
 368 2012-08-08 11:51:12 <spitteler> 0.09 BTC is cheap for gold ;)
 369 2012-08-08 11:51:14 <Goilio> Yep, just realised I made a mistake...
 370 2012-08-08 11:51:19 <Goilio> Need to read more.
 371 2012-08-08 11:51:39 <SomeoneWeird> spitteler, ill buy at that price
 372 2012-08-08 11:51:41 <SomeoneWeird> sorry coingenuity
 373 2012-08-08 11:51:42 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
 374 2012-08-08 11:51:43 <spitteler> but the debug lines for 74 and 75 ouput  "146.6767" which is correct
 375 2012-08-08 11:52:15 <spitteler> Someone, my site is the opposite of Coinbul, i want to buy silver for btc  (unless he does that too)
 376 2012-08-08 11:52:21 <Diablo-D3> !ticker
 377 2012-08-08 11:52:22 <gribble> Best bid: 11.01831, Best ask: 11.01832, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 11.01831, 24 hour volume: 47073, 24 hour low: 10.7, 24 hour high: 11.14999
 378 2012-08-08 11:52:36 <coingenuity> spitteler: yep, they do that
 379 2012-08-08 11:53:07 <Goilio> $BitcoinAu = number_format(($MtGoxAVG/$GoldUSD), 4);
 380 2012-08-08 11:56:43 <spitteler> Goilio, it can't be.. it needs to be gold/btc to get the rate of oz gold in bitcoins
 381 2012-08-08 11:57:25 <Goilio> Yeah I know. I just noticed. You also shouldn't be rounding everything until you do your output.
 382 2012-08-08 12:00:14 <Goilio> Fixed
 383 2012-08-08 12:00:23 <Goilio> Putting it up now
 384 2012-08-08 12:00:37 <spitteler> removed and even doing just $BitcoinAu = ($GoldUSD/$MtGoxAVG);  i get 1oz Gold = 0.0913242009132 BTC
 385 2012-08-08 12:01:10 <spitteler> thank you soo much!
 386 2012-08-08 12:01:51 <Goilio> http://pastebin.com/3fJqGksy
 387 2012-08-08 12:03:49 <Goilio> Do not use the number_format on data you are going to manipulate. It should only be used for output formatting.
 388 2012-08-08 12:04:21 <spitteler> thank you, and good to know for the future :)
 389 2012-08-08 12:04:22 * nsh hopes somebody who sells gold uses spitteler's code
 390 2012-08-08 12:04:33 <nsh> could do with an ounce for 0.1BTC
 391 2012-08-08 12:05:08 <Goilio> I would even take off all the round functions I have done on those variables and only putting the round on the actual output.
 392 2012-08-08 12:05:55 <spitteler> yes, i will do that from now on
 393 2012-08-08 12:06:41 <Goilio> I got an oz of silver today for $8 ;)
 394 2012-08-08 12:07:36 <spitteler> awesome! my latest score was much higher at 26 per oz for 20 AES
 395 2012-08-08 12:08:31 <spitteler> estate sale last saturday,  got a 1/10 oz GAE for $160 (so about spot except its 22kt)
 396 2012-08-08 12:08:46 <Goilio> nice
 397 2012-08-08 12:10:00 <Goilio> Now back to my coding :P
 398 2012-08-08 12:10:11 <spitteler> thanks again for the help :)
 399 2012-08-08 12:10:37 <Goilio> No problem :)
 400 2012-08-08 12:10:55 <Goilio> I saw PHP and couldn't resist :P
 401 2012-08-08 12:11:43 <spitteler> lol, now to store them in a db so i dont consistently overwhelm someone elses server (it's the polite thing to do)
 402 2012-08-08 12:11:53 minimoose has joined
 403 2012-08-08 12:13:53 <Goilio> Just have a cron job that runs every 5-15 minuites that updates it to the DB. Don't forget to round them first ;)
 404 2012-08-08 12:14:28 <Goilio> I use emoticons far too much...
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 408 2012-08-08 12:21:57 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1655  < can I get a non-bot second set of eyes on this? (its pretty trivial but I don't like to pull my own work unless its totally trivial or I know it has had some review)
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 417 2012-08-08 13:06:47 <roconnor> TIL CVE-2012-1909
 418 2012-08-08 13:08:27 cande has joined
 419 2012-08-08 13:09:06 <sipa> roconnor: yes?
 420 2012-08-08 13:09:32 <roconnor> I didn't realise a CVE was made
 421 2012-08-08 13:09:43 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures
 422 2012-08-08 13:10:17 <sipa> ah, i didn't know the meaning of "TIL"
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 434 2012-08-08 13:49:19 <t7> i hope people dont stop mining immediately after the reward drops
 435 2012-08-08 13:49:39 <t7> otherwise it will be very slow for 2 weeks worth of blocks
 436 2012-08-08 13:49:46 <slush> t7: With rising price it will be stillprofitable
 437 2012-08-08 13:50:07 <slush> t7: actually with current difficulty and FPGA miners, the 25BTC/block will be still profitable
 438 2012-08-08 13:50:38 denisx has joined
 439 2012-08-08 13:53:43 <jeremias> unless asics arrive, and then we will see probably huge difficulty increases
 440 2012-08-08 13:55:36 ByteUnits has joined
 441 2012-08-08 13:56:30 <t7> im gonna make an ASIC with some old logic gates i found in the warehouse
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 446 2012-08-08 14:11:34 <Ferroh> "<luke-jr> 27"
 447 2012-08-08 14:11:38 <Ferroh> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
 448 2012-08-08 14:11:46 <Ferroh> states " Mainline addresses can be 25-34 characters in length "
 449 2012-08-08 14:13:31 Turingi has joined
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 451 2012-08-08 14:21:33 <sipa> yes!
 452 2012-08-08 14:22:09 <sipa> ultraprune database extracted from stock bitcoind database exactly matches database constructed by ultraprune itself
 453 2012-08-08 14:23:41 * freewil gives thumbs up
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 456 2012-08-08 14:31:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: congrats!
 457 2012-08-08 14:36:26 nickrb has joined
 458 2012-08-08 14:36:37 Graph_Theory has joined
 459 2012-08-08 14:37:55 <Graph_Theory> is anyone interested in developing php marketplace script
 460 2012-08-08 14:38:52 nickrb- has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 461 2012-08-08 14:39:12 <epscy> is anyone interested in developing a facebook clone for bitcoin users?
 462 2012-08-08 14:39:47 <jeremias> there already is one, was it coinconnect or something...
 463 2012-08-08 14:39:56 <jeremias> I personally see no need for such a site
 464 2012-08-08 14:40:39 <sipa> if even google can't build something that challenges the network effect of facebook, i really doubt the bitcoin community can :)
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 470 2012-08-08 14:49:00 <denisx> Diablo-D3: why are you not supporting the midstate mining-extension?
 471 2012-08-08 14:49:33 <denisx> I thought you said you had the best miner in the world? ;)
 472 2012-08-08 14:50:54 <iddo> i did txn that sent 300 bitcoins from one address to someone else, but i see that it also sent 20 BTC from another address in my wallet to a new address in my wallet, why?
 473 2012-08-08 14:51:16 <denisx> iddo: thats the change
 474 2012-08-08 14:51:49 <denisx> iddo: you had 320 initially
 475 2012-08-08 14:51:54 i256 has joined
 476 2012-08-08 14:51:59 <i256> $./bitcoin-qt
 477 2012-08-08 14:51:59 <i256> ./bitcoin-qt: /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.11' not found (required by ./bitcoin-qt)
 478 2012-08-08 14:52:32 <i256> is possible to compile bitcoin into old systems?
 479 2012-08-08 14:52:42 <BlueMatt> yes, but you would have to compile ityourself
 480 2012-08-08 14:53:16 <i256> I can not
 481 2012-08-08 14:53:39 <iddo> denisx: i had in my wallet 300 under one address and 20 under another address, it send the 300 to someone else (not in my wallet) as i specified, and the 20 to a new address in my wallet
 482 2012-08-08 14:53:40 <i256> old client already has stopped working
 483 2012-08-08 14:53:56 <BlueMatt> what error do you get, or is there some other reason?
 484 2012-08-08 14:53:59 <i256> please help me
 485 2012-08-08 14:54:18 <i256> ./bitcoin-qt: /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.11' not found (required by ./bitcoin-qt)
 486 2012-08-08 14:54:30 <BlueMatt> no, what error do you get when you try to compile it yourself?
 487 2012-08-08 14:54:57 <i256> I can not compile
 488 2012-08-08 14:55:04 nickrb has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 489 2012-08-08 14:55:11 <i256> it is difficult
 490 2012-08-08 14:55:21 <sipa> what operating system is that?
 491 2012-08-08 14:55:28 <sipa> /distro
 492 2012-08-08 14:55:53 <i256> ubuntu 9.04
 493 2012-08-08 14:56:28 <i256> my 0.3.21 client dont working/connecting/mining
 494 2012-08-08 14:56:33 <BlueMatt> why cant you upgrade, that release has been unmaintained for a long time
 495 2012-08-08 14:56:43 <BlueMatt> also, 0.3.21 is vulnerable to a number of security issues
 496 2012-08-08 14:56:58 <sipa> and slow
 497 2012-08-08 14:57:05 <i256> I have a loot of programs this is not possible
 498 2012-08-08 14:57:22 <i256> new version not working
 499 2012-08-08 14:57:22 <SphericalCow> upgrade, at least to 10.04
 500 2012-08-08 14:57:28 <BlueMatt> (and other clients will reject connections from 0.3.21 because it is unable to act as a reasonable client on the network)
 501 2012-08-08 14:57:52 <i256> SphericalCow, not working  troubkle with library
 502 2012-08-08 14:58:19 <i256> please compile to my old system
 503 2012-08-08 14:58:30 <SphericalCow> it's inadvisable to store your money on an operating system which hasn't received security updates for almost 2 years
 504 2012-08-08 14:58:54 <i256> my english is not good
 505 2012-08-08 14:59:06 <i256> i'm not undestod what you typing
 506 2012-08-08 14:59:26 <BlueMatt> dont store your money on an old os that hasnt received security updates for 2 years
 507 2012-08-08 14:59:41 <SphericalCow> shall I try my polish?
 508 2012-08-08 15:00:32 <i256> Yes I use Polish
 509 2012-08-08 15:00:42 * i256 cieszy sie ze rozumiesz po polsku
 510 2012-08-08 15:01:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: in the shortened versions of the pull request comments your bot makes, you can't see whether they passed or not
 511 2012-08-08 15:01:19 <SphericalCow> heh, now I have to think
 512 2012-08-08 15:01:39 <sipa> can you change it to just be "Automatic testing: passed" or "Automatic testing: failed", and maybe some more explanation or just a link after that?
 513 2012-08-08 15:01:44 <SphericalCow> nie przychowywac twoj pieniadze na stary OS
 514 2012-08-08 15:01:48 <SphericalCow> rozumiesz?
 515 2012-08-08 15:02:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: which shortened version? there are only two versions, either it passed or it didnt
 516 2012-08-08 15:02:22 <sipa> BitcoinPullTester commented on pull request 1648 on bitcoin/bitcoin an hour ago
 517 2012-08-08 15:02:25 <sipa> The following is an automatic comment from the Bitcoin Pull Tester. If you believe it is in error, please contact jenkins@bluematt.me This pull pas…
 518 2012-08-08 15:02:29 <i256> rozumiem, ale dlaczego. Ja mam bardzo dużo oprogramowania które działa na tej wersji. Nie moge zmienić systemu.
 519 2012-08-08 15:02:30 <SphericalCow> ubuntu 9.04 nie mial "updates" od 2009
 520 2012-08-08 15:02:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's what you see in the summary
 521 2012-08-08 15:02:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, you mean it cuts off, ok yea, I can do that
 522 2012-08-08 15:02:46 <sipa> and it's not very useful :)
 523 2012-08-08 15:03:02 <BlueMatt> I didnt realize there was a summary for comments...
 524 2012-08-08 15:03:03 <i256> SphericalCow, ale ten system i tak nie ma bezpośredniego dostępu do internetu
 525 2012-08-08 15:03:34 <SphericalCow> ok, ale ciagle nie dobry idea
 526 2012-08-08 15:03:42 <i256> Wystarczy skompilowac program na starsza wersje
 527 2012-08-08 15:03:45 <SphericalCow> you see how bad my polish is :) sorry
 528 2012-08-08 15:03:52 <i256> nie moge obliczac bitcoins
 529 2012-08-08 15:04:13 <sipa> i256: either upgrade or compile bitcoin yourself
 530 2012-08-08 15:04:23 <sipa> i256: we won't distribute a version for an outdated operating system
 531 2012-08-08 15:04:25 <i256> please compile the new client into old stdlib
 532 2012-08-08 15:05:01 <i256> sipa, to nie jest zbyt uprzejme. Mysle, ze warto dbac o uzytkowników
 533 2012-08-08 15:05:22 <BlueMatt> sipa:  should I just delete the "The following...please contact..." part?
 534 2012-08-08 15:05:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'd just turn it into "Automatic testing: [RESULT]" and a link
 535 2012-08-08 15:06:10 <SphericalCow> i256, ubuntu 9.04 jest nieobslugiwany
 536 2012-08-08 15:06:34 <i256> szkoda
 537 2012-08-08 15:06:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: fair enough, though I kinda like the explanation of possible reasons for failure
 538 2012-08-08 15:07:17 <sipa> ok, put them after the result?
 539 2012-08-08 15:07:28 bitllc_ has joined
 540 2012-08-08 15:07:40 <BlueMatt> will do
 541 2012-08-08 15:07:49 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 542 2012-08-08 15:08:18 bitllc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 543 2012-08-08 15:08:44 <SphericalCow> i256, compile new version of glibc
 544 2012-08-08 15:08:49 <SphericalCow> then compile bitcoin linking to that version of glibc
 545 2012-08-08 15:08:53 <SphericalCow> it can be done I guess
 546 2012-08-08 15:09:19 i256 has quit (Quit: Idę)
 547 2012-08-08 15:09:32 <SphericalCow> another satisfied customer.
 548 2012-08-08 15:10:01 <BlueMatt> yea, I kinda hate to give that response, but encouraging people to run such an old os...
 549 2012-08-08 15:10:19 <SphericalCow> he was offended that nobody would compile it for him
 550 2012-08-08 15:10:45 <jgarzik> *yawn*
 551 2012-08-08 15:10:50 <jgarzik> is it 11am already?
 552 2012-08-08 15:10:55 <sipa> no, 5pm
 553 2012-08-08 15:11:54 <BlueMatt> ok, the passed version is now "Automatic sanity-testing: PASSED, see " + linkUrl + "for binaries and test log."
 554 2012-08-08 15:12:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: thanks!
 555 2012-08-08 15:13:15 <BlueMatt> also, does someone wanna fix the util_DateTimeStrFormat tests which cause this failure: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/6/console
 556 2012-08-08 15:14:40 <sipa> %x yields a 2-digit year?
 557 2012-08-08 15:15:05 <BlueMatt> apparently
 558 2012-08-08 15:15:20 <sipa> which is not a problem
 559 2012-08-08 15:15:29 <BlueMatt> I would think not
 560 2012-08-08 15:15:50 <sipa> date/time strings are platform-dependent, so a unit-test that checks it being equal to a fixed string seems pointless
 561 2012-08-08 15:16:20 <BlueMatt> agreed
 562 2012-08-08 15:20:00 <sipa> or at least %s is platform-dependent
 563 2012-08-08 15:20:18 <jgarzik> many strftime possibilities are platform-independent
 564 2012-08-08 15:20:28 <jgarzik> speaking generally it depends on the code
 565 2012-08-08 15:22:18 <sipa> yes, so the unit test should only test for independent strings
 566 2012-08-08 15:22:53 <Edward_Black> A quick question, what is current "average" block propagation time for the entire net ?
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 573 2012-08-08 15:39:29 <helo> it's probably tough to know the delay from when a block is sent to when most of the nodes have seen it, unless you run a pool
 574 2012-08-08 15:40:06 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: I don't think anyone is paying much attention to the average.
 575 2012-08-08 15:40:22 <helo> each node must receive it, validate it, and then broadcast it to its peers?
 576 2012-08-08 15:40:34 <gmaxwell> (the longer outliers are more interesting)
 577 2012-08-08 15:40:47 <gmaxwell> helo: Yes, but the fanout is exponential.
 578 2012-08-08 15:41:50 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 579 2012-08-08 15:42:33 <Edward_Black> Well, okay, wich is the "longest time it took a block to propagate, to date" ?
 580 2012-08-08 15:43:05 <epscy> propagate from where to where?
 581 2012-08-08 15:43:13 leotreasure has joined
 582 2012-08-08 15:43:17 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: Well a node which has been offline for a year takes a year to get the latest block...
 583 2012-08-08 15:43:37 <gmaxwell> Edward_Black: to what you're actually meaning to ask, we've seen multiminute skews.
 584 2012-08-08 15:43:56 <gmaxwell> E.g. 2+ minutes from hearing it to relatively complete propagation.
 585 2012-08-08 15:44:53 nickrb has joined
 586 2012-08-08 15:45:42 <BlueMatt> I still think a bitcoin backbone with a few public nodes for solo/p2pool miners would solve a large portion of the issues
 587 2012-08-08 15:46:05 <BlueMatt> at least for miners, which is really all that significantly matters here
 588 2012-08-08 15:47:35 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 589 2012-08-08 15:52:18 <helo> so if you want to mess stuff up, you know where to direct your attacks?
 590 2012-08-08 15:53:56 devrandom has joined
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 593 2012-08-08 15:55:16 <helo> i guess as long as the delay is acceptable, it's better to keep everything as distributed and faceless as possible
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 595 2012-08-08 15:57:32 <BlueMatt> yea, if you dos the crap out of the backbone, it will go down and everything keeps functioning, going back to the way it is now
 596 2012-08-08 15:57:39 <BlueMatt> otherwise, you get lower latency
 597 2012-08-08 15:58:59 <helo> unless resources were diverted non-backbone nodes to create the backbone
 598 2012-08-08 15:59:12 <helo> diverted *from
 599 2012-08-08 15:59:26 <BlueMatt> but they wouldnt
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 601 2012-08-08 16:00:37 <gmaxwell> "meh"  It's good to see efforts to maintain healthy nodes.
 602 2012-08-08 16:01:19 <helo> i could see people running permanent fast nodes right now adding them to the backbone
 603 2012-08-08 16:01:30 <gmaxwell> "adding"
 604 2012-08-08 16:01:52 <gmaxwell> helo: I think you should think more concretely about that.. what does it even mean?
 605 2012-08-08 16:02:32 <helo> it means you put your node's ip on the list of nodes to DOS
 606 2012-08-08 16:03:06 <BlueMatt> we already have a fallback nodes  list, but a backbone is something different entirely
 607 2012-08-08 16:03:08 <gmaxwell> helo: but if you had a fast public node that anyone could find it would already be on such a list were it competently constructed.
 608 2012-08-08 16:03:20 <BlueMatt> and would use trusted nodes, not random people
 609 2012-08-08 16:04:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Again, "meh". Trusted nodes cloud the understanding of the security model. (also, its weak indeed without authenticated addnode)
 610 2012-08-08 16:04:47 <BlueMatt> well, doesnt need to be incredibly trusted, just trusted enough that sites like mtgox would be willing to give them their ip and not get dos'd by them
 611 2012-08-08 16:05:44 <helo> it would be neat if someone would fund a group to run a backbone of nodes
 612 2012-08-08 16:05:53 cande has joined
 613 2012-08-08 16:06:07 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: is working on it, but is kinda busy with the $dayjob to work on it much
 614 2012-08-08 16:06:31 <luke-jr> Ferroh: I think 25 is a theoretical impossibility ;)
 615 2012-08-08 16:06:52 <luke-jr> Ferroh: the only way to get 27 afaik is with the zero pubkey; and the checksum of that isn't zero too
 616 2012-08-08 16:07:00 <helo> should fast nodes pretend to be not-so-fast as long as the network is functioning well without them?
 617 2012-08-08 16:08:36 <BlueMatt> helo: what?
 618 2012-08-08 16:08:44 <helo> a weird idea
 619 2012-08-08 16:09:05 <BlueMatt> if they are getting dos'd, maybe...but I have yet to hear anything about any nodes getting dos'd
 620 2012-08-08 16:09:23 <Ferroh> pretty silly to dos random nodes
 621 2012-08-08 16:09:31 <BlueMatt> yep
 622 2012-08-08 16:09:41 <BlueMatt> it really wouldnt do anything
 623 2012-08-08 16:10:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: pools are routinely DOS attacked by extortionists.
 624 2012-08-08 16:10:10 <BlueMatt> pool sure, but random nodes
 625 2012-08-08 16:10:45 <Ferroh> pretending to be "not fast" isnt a defense against getting DOSed anyway?
 626 2012-08-08 16:11:18 <helo> if the most capable nodes acted exactly like average nodes most of the time, it would be harder to build a node hit list
 627 2012-08-08 16:12:10 <helo> if you have a high capacity node, you could proxy its functionality across enough hosts so that it appears as "15" average nodes, or something... but that's getting pretty desperate
 628 2012-08-08 16:12:31 <BlueMatt> I dont see how building a node hit list would do anything, which is why I fail to see the use
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 630 2012-08-08 16:13:32 <helo> it's along the same lines as being resilient against attacks because of a lack of structure
 631 2012-08-08 16:14:41 <BlueMatt> is there any reason an attacker would work to make a hit list?
 632 2012-08-08 16:14:54 <BlueMatt> ie what is their target, and how would that help?
 633 2012-08-08 16:15:58 <helo> the goal could be to reduce confidence in bitcoin's reliability
 634 2012-08-08 16:18:09 <BlueMatt> how would dos'ing a specific list accomplish that more than dos'ing random nodes, or, probably even better specifically targeting low-resource nodes
 635 2012-08-08 16:18:15 <BlueMatt> easier and you get more total node count
 636 2012-08-08 16:20:56 <helo> dunno :)
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 644 2012-08-08 16:39:49 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt
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 648 2012-08-08 16:41:01 <devrandom> I don't know if you are watching the gitian repo - I added a workaround for vmbuilder so it doesn't have to be patched manually
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 654 2012-08-08 16:53:45 <devrandom> BlueMatt: also, perhaps bitcoin should make use of https://www.updateframework.com/ or http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/03/thandy-secure-update-for-tor.html
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 656 2012-08-08 16:54:24 <MC-Eeepc> autoupdate is bad
 657 2012-08-08 16:58:07 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: and its that blanket attitude that has led to severe upgrade apathy among bitcoin users, which results in worse network-wide security
 658 2012-08-08 16:58:30 <BlueMatt> auto-update, done properly, and allowing the user to say no, is a good thing
 659 2012-08-08 16:59:11 <BlueMatt> devrandom: how would those updaters fit into gitian?
 660 2012-08-08 16:59:13 <MC-Eeepc> upgrade apathy or the apathy that lends people to cede control over the bitcoin that runs on thier machines to a central authority (you guys)
 661 2012-08-08 16:59:15 <MC-Eeepc> pick one
 662 2012-08-08 16:59:26 <BlueMatt> neither
 663 2012-08-08 16:59:37 <MC-Eeepc> how
 664 2012-08-08 16:59:50 <BlueMatt> you can say no, and it only asks you to update
 665 2012-08-08 17:00:07 <MC-Eeepc> dude you know people just hammer yes as fast as possible
 666 2012-08-08 17:00:20 <BlueMatt> and, its not a single central authority, it requires acks from a number of devs
 667 2012-08-08 17:00:44 <MC-Eeepc> irrelevant
 668 2012-08-08 17:01:23 <MC-Eeepc> not to mention the security risk of a non legit autoupdate going out somehow
 669 2012-08-08 17:01:26 <BlueMatt> well Id rather people upgrade to secure versions than just sit around and get around to it later or not even see that there is an update
 670 2012-08-08 17:01:30 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: running unpatched versions is stupid
 671 2012-08-08 17:01:43 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: if you want to break the software monopoly, support other clients
 672 2012-08-08 17:01:56 <luke-jr> but always run the a supported version of whatever client you choose
 673 2012-08-08 17:02:03 <MC-Eeepc> one would hope that getting hacked to shit is an incentive to upgrade
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 675 2012-08-08 17:02:27 <BlueMatt> but, for most bitcoin users, its apparently not (probably many of them dont realize there is an update available)
 676 2012-08-08 17:02:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: to users, "a number of devs" is central
 677 2012-08-08 17:02:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: we do have an alert system
 678 2012-08-08 17:02:43 <MC-Eeepc> well
 679 2012-08-08 17:02:53 <MC-Eeepc> maybe there could be an upgrade alert sure
 680 2012-08-08 17:03:03 <MC-Eeepc> just a link to the site maybe
 681 2012-08-08 17:03:24 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: and thats what it does, but it also makes it easier to upgrade, and significantly more secure than a link to a download url
 682 2012-08-08 17:03:38 <MC-Eeepc> but at this point most remaining nodes are prob bitcoind right, mining away all alone
 683 2012-08-08 17:03:44 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: the idea for autoupgrade is, let the user click a single button to update when it's available, rather than find the current wbesite etc
 684 2012-08-08 17:04:09 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: miners use pools these days, often not using bitcoind at all
 685 2012-08-08 17:04:21 <luke-jr> and any bitcoind older than April won't even mine valid blocks anymore
 686 2012-08-08 17:04:29 <MC-Eeepc> well the pools then, who are too fucking lazy to upgrade
 687 2012-08-08 17:04:40 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: only some pools ;)
 688 2012-08-08 17:04:52 <MC-Eeepc> on thier heads be it
 689 2012-08-08 17:04:53 <luke-jr> and often for good reason (bitcoind refuses to support features they need)
 690 2012-08-08 17:04:54 <BlueMatt> pools generally do upgrade, at least pull important patches
 691 2012-08-08 17:05:19 <devrandom> BlueMatt: I am thinking of approaching them to integrate gitian
 692 2012-08-08 17:05:21 <MC-Eeepc> as i said what if a miscreant got inside the autoupdate system or something
 693 2012-08-08 17:05:29 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: also, you could use 0.4.x without running an unmaintained version; 0.4.7 is fully patched
 694 2012-08-08 17:05:36 <BlueMatt> devrandom: nice, that would be quite nice
 695 2012-08-08 17:05:52 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: then the update wouldnt get enough sigs and you'd be fine
 696 2012-08-08 17:06:01 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: the autoupdate system verifies PGP signatures from 3+ devs before it proposes an update
 697 2012-08-08 17:06:16 <luke-jr> as in, the clients doing the update
 698 2012-08-08 17:06:18 <MC-Eeepc> what if you all lose your mind and conspire
 699 2012-08-08 17:06:27 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: then you need to switch to another client
 700 2012-08-08 17:06:28 <BlueMatt> then you'd be fucked anyway
 701 2012-08-08 17:06:30 <MC-Eeepc> 3 people could take the network
 702 2012-08-08 17:06:40 <MC-Eeepc> or be coerced to take it
 703 2012-08-08 17:07:14 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: so help the client economy by usign other implementations
 704 2012-08-08 17:07:26 <BlueMatt> or 1 person could be coerced to push a windows-update than stole wallet.dats, bitcoin being compromised should really be the least of your worries if you are worried about people being bribed/coerced
 705 2012-08-08 17:07:37 <MC-Eeepc> sure, but for now the reference client is by far the most used
 706 2012-08-08 17:08:10 <MC-Eeepc> which means that the 3 crazy devs could fuck the network regardless of any other clients
 707 2012-08-08 17:08:43 <MC-Eeepc> if official bitcoin was below a third of the network or whatever, then ok
 708 2012-08-08 17:08:44 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: that's already true
 709 2012-08-08 17:09:06 <luke-jr> if tcatm went crazy, he could one-man replace the links on bitcoin.org
 710 2012-08-08 17:09:22 <luke-jr> having your own client verify PGP signatures *improves* the situation
 711 2012-08-08 17:09:25 <BlueMatt> among others
 712 2012-08-08 17:09:32 <MC-Eeepc> fuck
 713 2012-08-08 17:09:51 <luke-jr> it may not be perfect, but it is a signfiicant improvement
 714 2012-08-08 17:10:02 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I dont know, how much does tuf or thandy provide over just implementing a simple gitian-updater wrapper (already done for bitcoin-qt)
 715 2012-08-08 17:10:15 <MC-Eeepc> whats the numbers on old client usage?
 716 2012-08-08 17:10:22 <BlueMatt> they arent pretty
 717 2012-08-08 17:10:39 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: as in, older branches, or maintained vs unmaintained/exploitable?
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 719 2012-08-08 17:10:54 <MC-Eeepc> isnt there a secret message broadcast thing tht can be used to tell people to get off their ass and upgrade
 720 2012-08-08 17:10:58 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 721 2012-08-08 17:11:06 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html <-- updated/testing/vulnerable
 722 2012-08-08 17:11:14 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html <-- branches
 723 2012-08-08 17:11:37 <MC-Eeepc> wait, there is more than one branch....
 724 2012-08-08 17:11:43 <MC-Eeepc> wat
 725 2012-08-08 17:11:56 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: there's one master branch, and a couple of stable backport branches that I maintain
 726 2012-08-08 17:12:09 <MC-Eeepc> why?
 727 2012-08-08 17:12:24 <luke-jr> for people who can't/won't upgrade to bleeding edge
 728 2012-08-08 17:12:25 <devrandom> BlueMatt: yes, I'm not sure how much it buys for bitcoin.  I'll dig into them
 729 2012-08-08 17:12:38 <luke-jr> since bleeding edge often introduces new bugs too
 730 2012-08-08 17:12:58 <luke-jr> (though I'm working on getting 0.6.3 promoted to stable for Gentoo)
 731 2012-08-08 17:13:28 <MC-Eeepc> bitcoin *is* bleeding edge
 732 2012-08-08 17:13:45 <MC-Eeepc> the whole thing is supposed to be an experiment
 733 2012-08-08 17:13:49 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: supposed to be
 734 2012-08-08 17:13:50 <BlueMatt> devrandom: thanks, Ill look at them a bit too, but Id be really happy to see gitian being used for non-bitcoin projects (esp tor)
 735 2012-08-08 17:13:54 <MC-Eeepc> seems like its got far too much interial for that now
 736 2012-08-08 17:14:04 <luke-jr> but it's attained value before being ready
 737 2012-08-08 17:14:15 <luke-jr> so we have to deal with it
 738 2012-08-08 17:14:23 Gladamas has joined
 739 2012-08-08 17:14:40 <luke-jr> not everyone is as big as MtGox and can write their own implementation :p
 740 2012-08-08 17:14:58 <MC-Eeepc> ok well what about the super secret broadcast key gavin has got or whatever
 741 2012-08-08 17:15:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: your binaries link is dead :P
 742 2012-08-08 17:15:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: for which pull?
 743 2012-08-08 17:15:20 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: what about it?
 744 2012-08-08 17:15:23 pusle has joined
 745 2012-08-08 17:15:25 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: 1647
 746 2012-08-08 17:15:41 <MC-Eeepc> send a message out "upgrade you fuckers"
 747 2012-08-08 17:16:02 <luke-jr> I think he did
 748 2012-08-08 17:16:08 <luke-jr> at least for the bigger exploits
 749 2012-08-08 17:16:17 <MC-Eeepc> ive never seen one :(
 750 2012-08-08 17:16:53 <MC-Eeepc> that pie chart says 75% of the netowrk is current
 751 2012-08-08 17:17:01 <MC-Eeepc> doesnt seem too bad
 752 2012-08-08 17:17:06 <luke-jr> no, 75% run 0.6.x :p
 753 2012-08-08 17:17:15 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html shows current ;)
 754 2012-08-08 17:17:21 <luke-jr> only 38%
 755 2012-08-08 17:17:24 <MC-Eeepc> yeah thats reasonably current
 756 2012-08-08 17:17:43 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: every branch except 0.3.x has a current ;)
 757 2012-08-08 17:18:06 <MC-Eeepc> 60% have a known exploit?
 758 2012-08-08 17:18:09 <luke-jr> yes
 759 2012-08-08 17:18:22 <MC-Eeepc> shit
 760 2012-08-08 17:18:38 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs has pie charts linked for each exploit individually
 761 2012-08-08 17:19:07 <MC-Eeepc> cool
 762 2012-08-08 17:19:17 <luke-jr> looks like CVE-2012-2459 might hit 77% before the fall after all
 763 2012-08-08 17:19:28 <MC-Eeepc> well maybe this autoupdate thing is cool then
 764 2012-08-08 17:19:40 <MC-Eeepc> but 3 devs seems too low plurality
 765 2012-08-08 17:19:57 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: unfortunately, even finding 3 devs is difficult at times
 766 2012-08-08 17:20:09 <MC-Eeepc> if you do not underestimate bitcoins potential importance, its too low
 767 2012-08-08 17:20:12 <luke-jr> find more people to dev Bitcoin, and we can increase it ;)
 768 2012-08-08 17:20:28 <MC-Eeepc> not nessecarily devs
 769 2012-08-08 17:20:34 <luke-jr> it has to be devs.
 770 2012-08-08 17:20:46 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thanks, fixed
 771 2012-08-08 17:20:47 <luke-jr> non-devs lack the technical capability of ensuring the builds aren't compromised
 772 2012-08-08 17:21:11 <MC-Eeepc> what about the bigger players?
 773 2012-08-08 17:21:22 <MC-Eeepc> you said gox does code
 774 2012-08-08 17:21:51 <luke-jr> Gox doesn't use bitcoind at all
 775 2012-08-08 17:21:53 <MC-Eeepc> at the very least, lets not have the 3 signers under the same legal juristiction.....
 776 2012-08-08 17:21:58 <luke-jr> and MagicalTux is very busy
 777 2012-08-08 17:22:14 <luke-jr> hmm
 778 2012-08-08 17:22:27 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: I don't know any way for software to determine where the signer is
 779 2012-08-08 17:22:55 <MC-Eeepc> humans do that, before anyone gets 'gotten to'
 780 2012-08-08 17:23:02 <MC-Eeepc> not after
 781 2012-08-08 17:23:51 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: how do humans do it?>
 782 2012-08-08 17:23:59 <MC-Eeepc> im just saying, what if you put out a call for interested and competent parties/stakeholders to have a role in ensuring nothing bad goes out over the new autoupdate system and fucks everyones investment
 783 2012-08-08 17:24:06 <BlueMatt> yes because humans never fly to other jurisdictions
 784 2012-08-08 17:24:36 <MC-Eeepc> well im just throwing things out here
 785 2012-08-08 17:24:41 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: please do run a campaign to find more devs :p
 786 2012-08-08 17:25:02 <gmaxwell> Hell... just more people testing would be very very helpful.
 787 2012-08-08 17:25:07 <MC-Eeepc> as i said not necessarily devs, competent stakeholders
 788 2012-08-08 17:25:17 <luke-jr> …
 789 2012-08-08 17:25:22 <luke-jr> that makes no sense, MC-Eeepc
 790 2012-08-08 17:25:30 <gmaxwell> (I mean, real testing, not just starting up next-text and noticing it crash but then just waiting for the next update)
 791 2012-08-08 17:25:32 <BlueMatt> there was discussion about allowing certain people to nak releases without being able to support them
 792 2012-08-08 17:25:32 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: yes, but not for the topic :p
 793 2012-08-08 17:25:41 <gmaxwell> Oh, sorry, just tuning in.
 794 2012-08-08 17:25:47 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: next-test doesn't crash ;)
 795 2012-08-08 17:25:51 <luke-jr> the current one at least
 796 2012-08-08 17:25:54 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: go talk to midnightmagic
 797 2012-08-08 17:26:03 <MC-Eeepc> peple with large incentive to ensure nothing bad goes out on autoupdate, like bad code that spends everyones coins to oblivion or something
 798 2012-08-08 17:26:09 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I talk to him fairly often
 799 2012-08-08 17:26:23 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: he's been saying that its crashing for him.
 800 2012-08-08 17:26:54 <luke-jr> the current one? O.o
 801 2012-08-08 17:27:00 * luke-jr pokes midnightmagic
 802 2012-08-08 17:27:14 <MC-Eeepc> if reference bitcoin is the vast majority of the network, and mot of those mash 'yes' on the update screen, the chain could be at risk like that right?
 803 2012-08-08 17:27:41 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: only if 3 devs were compromised
 804 2012-08-08 17:27:53 <MC-Eeepc> only 3 devs
 805 2012-08-08 17:27:58 <MC-Eeepc> probably all in america
 806 2012-08-08 17:28:01 <luke-jr> hmm
 807 2012-08-08 17:28:03 <MC-Eeepc> right
 808 2012-08-08 17:28:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: what if the upgrade thing showed the list of signers?
 809 2012-08-08 17:28:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so users could wait until they see a specific name, or more signers?
 810 2012-08-08 17:28:44 <MC-Eeepc> 3 devs could all get national security letters telling them to fuck bitcoin, and they would never legally be allowed to tell anyone
 811 2012-08-08 17:29:05 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: nobody likes that possibility, but there's nothing better right now
 812 2012-08-08 17:29:23 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: right now, it doesnt download the gitian zip at all until you initiate upgrade, but if you wanna write support for 2-part process into gitian-downloader, Id surely upgrade it in bitcoin-qt
 813 2012-08-08 17:29:26 <MC-Eeepc> jacob applebaum has gotten an NSL, but he cant say why
 814 2012-08-08 17:29:36 <MC-Eeepc> prob about tor or wikileaks
 815 2012-08-08 17:29:52 <BlueMatt> no doubt wikileaks
 816 2012-08-08 17:29:58 <MC-Eeepc> prob
 817 2012-08-08 17:30:13 <MC-Eeepc> but thats why im saying at least keep the 3 signers in different juristictions
 818 2012-08-08 17:30:25 <MC-Eeepc> preferrably with one outside of The West all together
 819 2012-08-08 17:30:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: shouldn't the binaries include the final gitian outputs?
 820 2012-08-08 17:31:01 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: as much as I love being secure against weird things like corrupt gov'ts, I think you are going a bit far on the conspiracy theory stuff here
 821 2012-08-08 17:31:06 <MC-Eeepc> in fact, look at the root key model for dnssec
 822 2012-08-08 17:31:24 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: I'm not sure we have ANY active devs outside the west…
 823 2012-08-08 17:31:30 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: huh?
 824 2012-08-08 17:31:39 <MC-Eeepc> BlueMatt it may seemt that way, but consider the potential of bitcoin to usurp
 825 2012-08-08 17:31:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the autobuilds
 826 2012-08-08 17:31:45 <BlueMatt> Im not sure we have any active devs outside of the eu+us
 827 2012-08-08 17:32:18 <MC-Eeepc> and stranger things have happened int he last ten years
 828 2012-08-08 17:33:01 <luke-jr> MC-Eeepc: the only way to improve the security more than BlueMatt's proposal, is to drastically increase the pool of developers contributing
 829 2012-08-08 17:33:11 <luke-jr> the only way to do that effectively, is to increase hte pool of testers
 830 2012-08-08 17:33:30 <MC-Eeepc> its just that every thime i see a nexus point of control anywhere in the system, im all like yeah we should try and smooth that back down
 831 2012-08-08 17:33:35 <MC-Eeepc> its all i talk about really
 832 2012-08-08 17:33:51 <BlueMatt> thats great, but thats also what the current auto-update proposal does ;)
 833 2012-08-08 17:34:22 <MC-Eeepc> well im convinced about the autoupdates
 834 2012-08-08 17:34:39 <MC-Eeepc> but it should be spectacularly hard to put out malware via it
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 836 2012-08-08 17:34:51 <MC-Eeepc> even for state actors
 837 2012-08-08 17:35:02 <MC-Eeepc> perhaps especially for state actors
 838 2012-08-08 17:35:37 <MC-Eeepc> maybe a bit tinfoil, but just consider this sytems potential
 839 2012-08-08 17:36:10 <MC-Eeepc> then again the whole codebase has never had a proper audit as it is eh
 840 2012-08-08 17:36:22 <BlueMatt> currently, all you need to do is convince github and/or sourceforge to put some crap up
 841 2012-08-08 17:36:41 <MC-Eeepc> yeah that troubles me
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 869 2012-08-08 17:44:48 <osmosis> im getting core dumps and exceptions for upgrading wallet using bitcoin-qt 0.6.3. Im going to post an issue on github.
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 874 2012-08-08 17:47:49 <MC-Eeepc> why is deployment at 77% before details of a sploit get released?
 875 2012-08-08 17:47:55 <MC-Eeepc> why 77%
 876 2012-08-08 17:48:49 * TheSeven just sneaks into everything :P
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 882 2012-08-08 17:52:21 <Eliel> MC-Eeepc: I expect someone just liked the number :)
 883 2012-08-08 17:52:49 <osmosis> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1663
 884 2012-08-08 17:52:55 <osmosis> core dump on wallet upgrade
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 886 2012-08-08 17:53:02 <Eliel> MC-Eeepc: and of course, it's roughly high enough that impact on the network would be small enough.
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 889 2012-08-08 17:55:58 <gigabird> Hi, I just read a miner source code (the one in the cotrib folder of bitcoin wallet called pyminer) and i saw that it was trying the nonce's in a sequential way, my q is that would checking the nonce's in a random-like way increase the our luck? how is this job done in modern miners like phoenix?
 890 2012-08-08 17:56:06 <BlueMatt> osmosis: error looks like a corrupted wallet
 891 2012-08-08 17:56:08 MobiusL has joined
 892 2012-08-08 17:56:40 <gmaxwell> gigabird: in an actually random way would decrease performance. In a randomly ordered way would make no difference (other than the overhead from looking up the ordering rather than adding)
 893 2012-08-08 17:57:22 gfinn has joined
 894 2012-08-08 17:57:28 <osmosis> BlueMatt, it came out of a encrypted archive with no decoding errors, so i doubt thats the case
 895 2012-08-08 17:58:02 <gmaxwell> Db::open: Invalid argument
 896 2012-08-08 17:58:06 <gmaxwell> it wasn't a clean backup.
 897 2012-08-08 17:58:18 <gmaxwell> It's failing to open the database log files.
 898 2012-08-08 17:58:22 <BlueMatt> maybe the block index is corrupt
 899 2012-08-08 17:58:36 <gmaxwell> (assuming the error is wallet related at all)
 900 2012-08-08 17:58:41 <osmosis> uhmm...i thought this was just about the wallet.dat
 901 2012-08-08 17:58:56 <gmaxwell> osmosis: "this"?
 902 2012-08-08 17:58:57 <gigabird> gmaxwell: thank you. so what if we learn from previous nonces? are they alike or completely random?
 903 2012-08-08 17:59:02 <Eliel> osmosis: was the backup made by copying wallet.dat while bitcoin was running?
 904 2012-08-08 17:59:03 <osmosis> this error
 905 2012-08-08 17:59:09 <osmosis> the rest of the data files load fine with other wallet
 906 2012-08-08 17:59:22 <osmosis> Eliel, i dont recall
 907 2012-08-08 17:59:41 <Eliel> osmosis: if it was, that has a high chance to corrupt the wallet file.
 908 2012-08-08 18:00:01 <Eliel> (the backup)
 909 2012-08-08 18:00:13 <BlueMatt> gigabird: the result is effectively random based on the nonce (it is a cryptographic hash, after all)
 910 2012-08-08 18:00:14 <gmaxwell> gigabird: They are completely radom.
 911 2012-08-08 18:00:39 <Eliel> osmosis: I suggest trying wallet recovery tools
 912 2012-08-08 18:00:45 <gmaxwell> osmosis: as I said— it sounds like you managed to make a backup uncleanly (e.g. of a node that was running or not cleanly shut down)
 913 2012-08-08 18:00:58 <gmaxwell> And its trying to use the db recovery logs, which you don't have.
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 915 2012-08-08 18:01:06 <BlueMatt> did you make the backup without the -detachdb option on a fairly-recent bitcoin?
 916 2012-08-08 18:01:19 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you don't need detachdb for the wallet.
 917 2012-08-08 18:01:22 <BlueMatt> (it would be really nice if we could just detach the wallet)
 918 2012-08-08 18:01:28 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought you did...nevermind
 919 2012-08-08 18:01:45 <gmaxwell> er. I really thought we did. crap. Now you have me doubting it!
 920 2012-08-08 18:01:47 <gigabird> gmaxwell, BlueMatt: mmm.. i see..
 921 2012-08-08 18:02:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I wouldnt know, I was just guessing
 922 2012-08-08 18:02:08 <gmaxwell> Well I will coninue to believe we do, because I would have really opposed that change if it didn't.
 923 2012-08-08 18:02:16 <osmosis> there are no coins in the wallet, so recovering this is just a drill
 924 2012-08-08 18:02:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, makes sense, I would think others would have too
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 928 2012-08-08 18:07:44 <gigabird> is there any charts or graphs for founded nonces?
 929 2012-08-08 18:09:12 <osmosis> Is there a known bug that when upgrading wallets, many transaction dates are replaced with the import date?  Thats what I am seeing.
 930 2012-08-08 18:10:09 <sipa> gmaxwell, BlueMatt: wallet is always detached
 931 2012-08-08 18:10:33 <MC-Eeepc> its funny cos whre i live, nonce is slang for a pederast
 932 2012-08-08 18:10:50 <osmosis> transaction id on blockchain.info show  2012-01-08,  transaction in wallet import (different one this time), is show 8 Aug 2012.  No errors on -upgradewallet
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 937 2012-08-08 18:14:32 <gmaxwell> osmosis: the times on transactions show the time your node learned about the transaction.
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 939 2012-08-08 18:15:35 <osmosis> gmaxwell, is that information not saved in the wallet.dat? or only in newer wallet.dat's ?
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 943 2012-08-08 18:17:41 <gmaxwell> osmosis: it's in the wallets, but— was that wallet saved before thos txn existed?
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 945 2012-08-08 18:18:06 <osmosis> gmaxwell, yes it was
 946 2012-08-08 18:18:32 <gmaxwell> Well there you go then!
 947 2012-08-08 18:19:14 <luke-jr> gigabird: generally, miners don't do them sequentially anymore
 948 2012-08-08 18:19:30 <luke-jr> gigabird: often many nonces are tried in parallel
 949 2012-08-08 18:19:58 <luke-jr> gigabird: also, most nonces found are lower, but not because lower has better chances
 950 2012-08-08 18:20:09 <luke-jr> instead, it's because lower nonces get tested more ;)
 951 2012-08-08 18:20:25 <gmaxwell> s/more/first/ really.
 952 2012-08-08 18:26:01 <gigabird> luke-jr: thank you, What do you mean by 'because they get tested more' ?
 953 2012-08-08 18:27:26 <osmosis> gmaxwell, actually..these are mostly transactions that were sent from the wallet. They are all missing their address label as well. wallet is from aug2011
 954 2012-08-08 18:27:28 <luke-jr> gigabird: since miners start with 0 and go forward, lower numbers get tried sooner
 955 2012-08-08 18:27:31 <Gladamas> gigabird: because the lower hash rate people mine only the first few nonces before they get more work
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 957 2012-08-08 18:29:27 <gigabird> luke-jr, Gladamas : oh, yes, you're right.. but luke-jr said founded nonce are lower. i dont get this why?
 958 2012-08-08 18:29:47 <Gladamas> founded nonce?
 959 2012-08-08 18:30:04 <Gladamas> found nonce?
 960 2012-08-08 18:30:04 <Gladamas> oh
 961 2012-08-08 18:30:08 <gmaxwell> osmosis: if the wallet is from aug2011 then you won't know about transactions and labels from after that.
 962 2012-08-08 18:30:25 <Gladamas> Because for the same reason, more low nonces are tested, so more blocks are found with a low nonce
 963 2012-08-08 18:30:48 <Gladamas> every nonce has an equal chance of being a block
 964 2012-08-08 18:30:54 <osmosis> gmaxwell, these are transactions that were sent from this actual wallet.
 965 2012-08-08 18:33:26 <gmaxwell> osmosis: Yes, sent _after_ your backup was created.
 966 2012-08-08 18:33:30 <gmaxwell> It isn't psychic!
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 971 2012-08-08 18:40:35 <osmosis> if I use bitcoin-0.5.4rc3-linux, wallet upgrade goes without an issue. No exception, no Db::open: Invalid argument, no core dump.
 972 2012-08-08 18:43:02 <luke-jr> osmosis: at least use 0.5.6
 973 2012-08-08 18:43:13 <devrandom> gmaxwell: BlueMatt: how should gitian NAKs work?  it seems that they should be retrieved from a source other than the main download site, since the people posting on the main site would have an incentive to exclude the NAKs
 974 2012-08-08 18:43:23 <gmaxwell> osmosis: great, go bisect now and find the change that break it. :)
 975 2012-08-08 18:44:11 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: you can't bisect 0.5.4rc3 with master :P
 976 2012-08-08 18:44:15 <luke-jr> unless 0.5.6 is broken too? O.o
 977 2012-08-08 18:44:30 <osmosis> luke-jr, 0.5.4 is what is available on http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/
 978 2012-08-08 18:44:36 <gmaxwell> devrandom: what we talked about was just having it poll all of N sites, and merge the results. Thats generally a good idea not considering NAKs in any case. To complete the security it would be useful if the threshold let you specify that N of M sites needed to respond.
 979 2012-08-08 18:44:52 <osmosis> should I be pulling from github instead?
 980 2012-08-08 18:45:03 <luke-jr> osmosis: well, nanotube should upload 0.5.6 <.<
 981 2012-08-08 18:45:28 <gmaxwell> osmosis: I thought you started off reporting against git?
 982 2012-08-08 18:45:29 <luke-jr> osmosis: if you can build from source, latest 0.5.x branch would be nice
 983 2012-08-08 18:45:50 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: if he can reproduce with 0.5.x, it'll be easier to bisect
 984 2012-08-08 18:46:06 <luke-jr> osmosis: git clone git://gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable.git -b 0.5.x
 985 2012-08-08 18:46:07 <osmosis> gmaxwell, was just using bitcoin-0.6.3 before
 986 2012-08-08 18:46:28 <gmaxwell> ah, sorry. My suggestion was based on assuming you were setup to build it already.
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 988 2012-08-08 18:47:59 <devrandom> gmaxwell: should polling be by HTTPS?  should we pin a specific certificate for each site?
 989 2012-08-08 18:48:43 rdponticelli has joined
 990 2012-08-08 18:48:50 <gmaxwell> devrandom: That sounds like a very useful _option_. e.g. let the specification pin the cert if used.
 991 2012-08-08 18:49:12 * luke-jr wonders if it might make sense to distribute the update announcement via the alert mechanism
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 994 2012-08-08 18:50:07 <gmaxwell> Someone connected with the tor project wrote a long academic paper on more secure automatic updates that addresses a lot of this stuff, I wish I could remember the name of the darn paper.
 995 2012-08-08 18:50:10 <Parrot> hi there
 996 2012-08-08 18:50:37 <Parrot> i checked the bitcoin api and cannot find the command to create a new bitcoin account in jsonrpc
 997 2012-08-08 18:51:14 <gmaxwell> Parrot: getnewaddress [account] or assign an existing address to it.
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 999 2012-08-08 18:51:49 <Parrot> okay and [account] will be the new account name right ? and it will automatically create a new address then ?
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1003 2012-08-08 18:52:10 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: maybe its linked somewhere here? http://www.cs.arizona.edu/stork/packagemanagersecurity/papers.html
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1005 2012-08-08 18:52:44 <gmaxwell> right, you don't 'create' accounts, you attach addresses to them— either an existing address or a new one you've just created.
1006 2012-08-08 18:53:15 <Parrot> another question. How can I delete an account with balance 0.00 ?
1007 2012-08-08 18:53:52 <Parrot> attach all adresses to a new account ?
1008 2012-08-08 18:53:59 <sipa> if you really have to
1009 2012-08-08 18:54:11 <sipa> but the effect is almost nihil
1010 2012-08-08 18:54:38 <Parrot> will these accounts still show up with a listaccounts command ?
1011 2012-08-08 18:54:45 <Parrot> for now it's a real mess
1012 2012-08-08 18:55:04 <sipa> i suppose they will
1013 2012-08-08 18:55:34 <Parrot> ok this is just cosmetic but rather annoying when you have played with the api
1014 2012-08-08 18:55:44 <devrandom> gmaxwell: sounds good
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1016 2012-08-08 18:56:11 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1017 2012-08-08 18:57:04 <gmaxwell> devrandom: basically the idea is that even if ninjas assult the bitcoin developers conference and take sipa and gavin hostage and thats a critical mass for updates, that other people can kill the update before it does any/much damage.
1018 2012-08-08 18:57:31 <gmaxwell> (or more realistically, exploits all the core devs by submitting a pull request with a malware makefile that we run before we notice it)
1019 2012-08-08 18:57:42 <Parrot> now something strange i don't understand , when I list all the addresses of an account with "getaddressesbyaccount" and use "getaccountaddress" on this account , the latter does not show up in the getaddressesbyaccount list. How come ?
1020 2012-08-08 18:58:34 <devrandom> gmaxwell: right
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1024 2012-08-08 18:59:21 <Graph_Theory> Hey
1025 2012-08-08 18:59:29 guruvan has joined
1026 2012-08-08 18:59:32 <Graph_Theory> I am trying to get a Marketplace on bitcoinfans.com
1027 2012-08-08 18:59:41 guruvan has quit (Client Quit)
1028 2012-08-08 18:59:42 <Graph_Theory> where people can list items and servicces
1029 2012-08-08 18:59:46 <Graph_Theory> and others can buy them
1030 2012-08-08 18:59:52 <Graph_Theory> pay with bitcoins
1031 2012-08-08 18:59:55 <Graph_Theory> then leave feedback
1032 2012-08-08 19:00:19 <osmosis> following qt build instructions for unix, during make I get  src/headers.h:39:20: fatal error: db_cxx.
1033 2012-08-08 19:00:32 <sipa> osmosis: install libdb++4.8-dev
1034 2012-08-08 19:00:39 <sipa> or libdb++5.1-dev
1035 2012-08-08 19:01:08 <Parrot> ok ignore my last question
1036 2012-08-08 19:01:24 <luke-jr> osmosis: and then set BDB_INCLUDE_PATH to something useful
1037 2012-08-08 19:01:30 <Parrot> what's annoying is that there is no way to remove unused accounts
1038 2012-08-08 19:01:43 <Parrot> anyone here ?
1039 2012-08-08 19:01:50 <sipa> no, sorry
1040 2012-08-08 19:01:52 <osmosis> sipa, maybe libdb4.8-dev  on ubuntu 12.04
1041 2012-08-08 19:02:02 <luke-jr> Parrot: if it were unused, it wouldn't be there in the first place
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1043 2012-08-08 19:02:25 <sipa> osmosis: libdb5.1++-dev
1044 2012-08-08 19:02:36 <sipa> sorry, i swapped the 5.1 and the ++
1045 2012-08-08 19:02:40 guruvan has joined
1046 2012-08-08 19:02:41 <luke-jr> osmosis: the Bitcoin PPA should have 4.8
1047 2012-08-08 19:03:00 <Parrot> luke well I "played" with the thing and created accounts that I do not need.
1048 2012-08-08 19:03:19 <Parrot> now i want to clear things up
1049 2012-08-08 19:03:47 <osmosis> luke-jr, is it better I use the PPA then then libdb5.1++-dev ?
1050 2012-08-08 19:04:11 <luke-jr> osmosis: 4.8 is what everything is tested with, and required for compatibility with other clients
1051 2012-08-08 19:06:39 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1053 2012-08-08 19:09:14 <Parrot> i tried to assign the existing address of an account to another account but the account is still there
1054 2012-08-08 19:09:20 Graph_Theory has left ()
1055 2012-08-08 19:09:26 <Parrot> should i edit wallet.dat ?
1056 2012-08-08 19:10:42 <sipa> if you have to, you can
1057 2012-08-08 19:12:55 <Parrot> or shouls i create a new wallet.dat and transfer my funds to a new clean wallet.dat with only one account
1058 2012-08-08 19:13:12 <sipa> that's possible too, but you'll lose the receive addresses in the new wallet
1059 2012-08-08 19:13:13 <Parrot> it seems lame to me
1060 2012-08-08 19:13:19 <sipa> unless you dump and re-import them
1061 2012-08-08 19:13:59 <Parrot> if i make a new transfer i will lose some funds right
1062 2012-08-08 19:14:04 <Parrot> the fees
1063 2012-08-08 19:16:10 <sipa> if you have many small or recent coins
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1065 2012-08-08 19:17:55 <Parrot> what a mess
1066 2012-08-08 19:21:00 Gladamas is now known as ozbot_
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1070 2012-08-08 19:34:18 <devrandom> gmaxwell: I just realized, you can't NAK a specific version, because the bad ninjas will keep releasing new versions and it will be difficult to keep up
1071 2012-08-08 19:34:56 <devrandom> so what we really need is an "disable auto-updates" alert that is not version specific
1072 2012-08-08 19:35:02 <devrandom> BlueMatt: ^^
1073 2012-08-08 19:35:20 Gladamas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1074 2012-08-08 19:35:25 <gmaxwell> devrandom: Hm? No, you'll just keep naking them.
1075 2012-08-08 19:35:45 <gmaxwell> Presumably if it's a real issue people will figure out how to be persistant with the naking.
1076 2012-08-08 19:37:00 <gmaxwell> devrandom: probably where your problem is coming from is that you're not quarentining a new release? It should. e.g. mandatory X hour wait after the first seen ACK, to give time for the naks.
1077 2012-08-08 19:38:06 <devrandom> I see
1078 2012-08-08 19:38:49 <devrandom> what if bad ninjas serve different versions to different IPs?
1079 2012-08-08 19:39:04 <gmaxwell> quarantining*
1080 2012-08-08 19:40:22 <gmaxwell> Interesting thought. They put the keys online and every user gets a 'different' bad version.
1081 2012-08-08 19:41:15 <BlueMatt> I still prefer to just require a higher % of sigs
1082 2012-08-08 19:41:33 <BlueMatt> it simplifies it all and there are way fewer complicated attack scenarios
1083 2012-08-08 19:42:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thats really orthorgonal. You can do both. The thinking with naks is "automatic updates should not be less secure than what we currently have"
1084 2012-08-08 19:43:18 <devrandom> I'll bbl
1085 2012-08-08 19:43:23 <gmaxwell> And right now one property of what we currently have is that 100% of the developers can be evil, put out a bad update... then before almost anyone deploys it— because deployment is slow— one diligent independant reviewer  can sound the alarm and prevent all or almost all of the harm.
1086 2012-08-08 19:44:09 * BlueMatt just realized he is the only one that could break that (for ubuntu users)
1087 2012-08-08 19:44:10 <BlueMatt> damn
1088 2012-08-08 19:44:20 <BlueMatt> that should not be
1089 2012-08-08 19:44:47 <BlueMatt> anyway...yea I agree the nak idea is certainly a cool one, and certainly makes sense in the way updates actually work
1090 2012-08-08 19:46:11 <gmaxwell> NAKs also help with some kind of extortion.  "We've kiddnapped luke-jr and will kill him if all the developers don't sign our evil version" "Well, we can sign it, but there are 200 people who can kill the release, and we don't even know how to contact all of them"
1091 2012-08-08 19:46:52 <BlueMatt> theres also the issue of rolling out releases that one person/group highly disagrees with
1092 2012-08-08 19:46:55 <BlueMatt> (see: BIP16)
1093 2012-08-08 19:47:00 <gmaxwell> "and besides, if we tell 200 people not to nak, and even if they all agree, it will leak and people will manually disable the autoupdater"
1094 2012-08-08 19:47:35 <gmaxwell> I think BIP16 is actually a counter example for that concern.
1095 2012-08-08 19:47:59 <gmaxwell> And the worst case is, of course, someone kills the autoupdate.. so a manual update is required for people to go forward. Not the end of the world.
1096 2012-08-08 19:48:18 <BlueMatt> but maybe just a ton more transparency in the update window also solves some of the issues: list who has signed the given release, etc
1097 2012-08-08 19:48:35 <BlueMatt> +do your peers have this update
1098 2012-08-08 19:49:38 Syloq has quit (Quit: Everybody hates me because I'm so universally liked.)
1099 2012-08-08 19:49:46 <gmaxwell> Also, randomly delaying it.. e.g. minimum 24 hour delay, up to X days delay randomly.. so even if a version is a trap there is time for the news to spread and people to abort the update.  I guess these things don't depend on NAKs being formally supported.
1100 2012-08-08 19:49:56 <BlueMatt> yea
1101 2012-08-08 19:51:10 <gmaxwell> though, yea, they would do better with a high threshold shut off updates killswitch.. because sometimes people are asleep at the switch. Maybe just a new update kills any pending ones and restarts the timer.
1102 2012-08-08 19:51:51 <gmaxwell> So if there is a fight between keyholders (e.g. due to a compromised key) they can delay updates for as long as it takes to get people to manually update to an non-compromised keyset.
1103 2012-08-08 19:52:20 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: IceChat - Keeping PC's cool since 2000)
1104 2012-08-08 19:53:30 <sipa> who had the alert key apart from satoshi and gavin?
1105 2012-08-08 19:53:40 <sipa> was it theymos or tcatm?
1106 2012-08-08 19:55:14 <BlueMatt> theymos
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1108 2012-08-08 19:57:20 <sipa> what i thought
1109 2012-08-08 19:59:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: even stupidly large delays like 1-2 weeks are way better than having no autoupdate.
1110 2012-08-08 19:59:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but I dont think that would be the way to go...
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1114 2012-08-08 20:01:05 <BlueMatt> devrandom: anyway, the first step to a few of these updates is to do an intermediate step in gitian-downloader: first download-only and check sigs, then popup the update window then actually update
1115 2012-08-08 20:01:30 <BlueMatt> could do it manually in bitcoin, but its cleaner to let gitian-updater do that imho
1116 2012-08-08 20:01:31 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Conservative is good.  There is really no hope of using something like this for a warhol warm type situation— it wouldn't be fast enough to help, and making the updates very fast has a lot of risk.
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1118 2012-08-08 20:02:20 <BlueMatt> absolutely, but for other issues, it should be reasonably fast enough
1119 2012-08-08 20:04:03 <BlueMatt> so I guess in the intermediary, until more thought is pured into formal nak support, updates should be quarantined, and the update process should be made more verbose
1120 2012-08-08 20:04:41 <gmaxwell> Well— whats the purpose of autoupdates?  I'd still generally prefer users update manually when they're willing and able: They'll give better issue feedback that way, an update is less likely to catch them by surprise and interupt their operations.   My thinking is that there are two purposes:
1121 2012-08-08 20:05:01 <gmaxwell> (1) get users who are updating manually cryptographically authenticated copies to install.
1122 2012-08-08 20:05:18 <gmaxwell> (2) not leave the network running old versions in large numbers for months/years.
1123 2012-08-08 20:05:30 <BlueMatt> agreed
1124 2012-08-08 20:06:22 <sipa> i suppose we can have a policy not to push/publish the autoupdate data until 1 week after the actual release
1125 2012-08-08 20:06:54 <gmaxwell> Neither of these need automatic updates to self-apply quickly. E.g. XXX hours hidden from the user, then one to two weeks  of manually triggered only would hit those points.
1126 2012-08-08 20:07:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: if we don't then many users will manually download from sourceforge and get insecure versions.
1127 2012-08-08 20:07:20 <gmaxwell> because they won't bother with the gpg sig checking.
1128 2012-08-08 20:07:26 <sipa> right
1129 2012-08-08 20:07:46 <gmaxwell> (We know for a fact that they don't already)
1130 2012-08-08 20:07:49 <Eliel> you could also just have the old version show a notice of the new version and a short description of the changes once the new version has enough signatures (and add a warning if someone has nacked it)
1131 2012-08-08 20:08:03 <BlueMatt> you would have that problem either way if you delay the update
1132 2012-08-08 20:08:05 <Eliel> along with a button to download and install it if desired.
1133 2012-08-08 20:08:08 <BlueMatt> (in-client or in policy)
1134 2012-08-08 20:08:20 <gmaxwell> You'd make it available but give no notice.
1135 2012-08-08 20:09:00 <Eliel> since bitcoin already has ecdsa encryption built-in, it would make sense to use that.
1136 2012-08-08 20:09:10 <gmaxwell> Then after a delay you give a notice, make it more obviously available for manual update.. Then after another delay you install automatically. (if that isn't disabled)
1137 2012-08-08 20:09:16 <sipa> ecdsa is not encryption :)
1138 2012-08-08 20:09:32 <Eliel> sipa: just signatures?
1139 2012-08-08 20:09:36 <sipa> yes
1140 2012-08-08 20:09:51 <Eliel> ok, I stand corrected. But that's all this needs :)
1141 2012-08-08 20:10:08 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I'm so dead :<
1142 2012-08-08 20:10:10 <BlueMatt> we already use gitian for build process, there is no reason not to use it for updates
1143 2012-08-08 20:10:17 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: hahah
1144 2012-08-08 20:11:04 <sipa> luke-jr: as soon as you claim to have given up your beliefs, we know you're held hostage ;)
1145 2012-08-08 20:11:18 <luke-jr> sipa: I would never do that.
1146 2012-08-08 20:11:34 <sipa> that's why :)
1147 2012-08-08 20:11:48 <luke-jr> sipa: even if I were held hostage.
1148 2012-08-08 20:11:58 <sipa> ok
1149 2012-08-08 20:12:08 Graph_Theory has joined
1150 2012-08-08 20:12:10 <Graph_Theory> hey guys
1151 2012-08-08 20:12:29 <luke-jr> sipa: it's possible you'd hear about me being killed for refusal to do that though :p
1152 2012-08-08 20:12:36 <luke-jr> (but not likely I hope)
1153 2012-08-08 20:13:13 <nanotube> luke-jr: is 0.5.6 out, and gitian-signed by several builders?
1154 2012-08-08 20:13:37 <luke-jr> nanotube: well, it's just the last RC renamed :P
1155 2012-08-08 20:13:44 <Graph_Theory> can anyone in here mod a php marketplace
1156 2012-08-08 20:13:49 <Graph_Theory> for it to accept bitcoins
1157 2012-08-08 20:13:59 <Graph_Theory> instead of regular paymetn
1158 2012-08-08 20:14:00 <luke-jr> nanotube: shall I re-zip it for uploading?
1159 2012-08-08 20:14:02 <Graph_Theory> *payment
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1163 2012-08-08 20:16:08 <sipa> Graph_Theory: ask in #bitcoin-otc or in the marketplace
1164 2012-08-08 20:16:36 <Graph_Theory> thanks
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1179 2012-08-08 20:50:36 <Graph_Theory> anyone in here interested in being admin and helping set up the forum
1180 2012-08-08 20:50:36 <Graph_Theory> http://www.bitcoinfans.com/forums/
1181 2012-08-08 20:50:47 <midnightmagic> sipa: at one point you had a wallet dumper which dumped even unseen addresses from a wallet into a format which could then be imported. currently I only see per-address dump and import. Was there a reason why the full wallet-dump wasn't brought in also? Or am I just missing the option and all I need is a wildcard somewhere?
1182 2012-08-08 20:50:50 <Graph_Theory> im also looking for admins
1183 2012-08-08 20:50:51 <Graph_Theory> for http://www.bitcoinfans.com/forums/
1184 2012-08-08 20:50:59 <Graph_Theory> and ppl who can suggest categories they want to see
1185 2012-08-08 20:51:22 <BlueMatt> Graph_Theory: seriously? you dont need to advertise every couple hours, and you dont need to fill everyone's screen with 5 lines each time
1186 2012-08-08 20:51:49 <luke-jr> lol
1187 2012-08-08 20:54:02 <sipa> midnightmagic: there were some problems with it still, at the time
1188 2012-08-08 20:54:30 <sipa> midnightmagic: and i kinda neglected finishing it afterwarfs
1189 2012-08-08 20:55:05 <midnightmagic> sipa: doh.
1190 2012-08-08 20:55:28 <sipa> i suppose i still have a branch lying around
1191 2012-08-08 20:55:48 <midnightmagic> sipa: What were the issues if you recall?
1192 2012-08-08 20:56:09 lukas has joined
1193 2012-08-08 20:56:31 <sipa> it had some logic to avoid rescanning too much, but at some point i realized therr were some cases where it would fail
1194 2012-08-08 20:56:40 <midnightmagic> sipa: I seem to recall there was at one point a bit of a rough edge on different forms of keys, compressed and so on but I thought you fixed that. Was someone complaining about whether other wallet information should also be dumped or something?
1195 2012-08-08 20:56:44 <midnightmagic> ah I see..
1196 2012-08-08 20:57:03 <sipa> i can't remember the details, but i suppose i'd simplify things now if i would finish it
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1208 2012-08-08 21:23:55 <Graph_Theory> I set up software discussion board on http://bitcoinfans.com/forums/
1209 2012-08-08 21:24:16 <Graph_Theory> Wanna see a particular category or forum? Register and let us know!
1210 2012-08-08 21:24:21 <t7> are there any articles criticising the bitcoin source code/implementation?
1211 2012-08-08 21:25:43 <luke-jr> t7: #bitcoin-dev isn't enough? :P
1212 2012-08-08 21:26:56 <denisx> luke-jr: do you know if the patch from crypticmonkey for getworkex is compatible with getmemorypool?
1213 2012-08-08 21:27:36 <jgarzik> denisx: <interested> what is getworkex? url?
1214 2012-08-08 21:28:13 <denisx> jgarzik: https://github.com/CryptoManiac/pushpool/commit/980161e1b7e420d61e4b491adf0df5035dfcb658
1215 2012-08-08 21:28:40 <denisx> jgarzik: he uses getworkex, but bitcoind has no getworkex
1216 2012-08-08 21:28:48 <denisx> and his repos are all 404
1217 2012-08-08 21:29:11 <denisx> his bitcoind clones
1218 2012-08-08 21:31:16 <denisx> uh, his name is cryptomaniac and not crypticmonkey ;)
1219 2012-08-08 21:34:03 <makomk> jgarzik: I think getworkex is one of my bits of code. It's another way to allow mining pools to modify the coinbase transaction that's designed to be relatively similar to getwork.
1220 2012-08-08 21:34:24 <denisx> makomk: good to know
1221 2012-08-08 21:34:54 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1222 2012-08-08 21:34:55 <makomk> Basically you get the coinbase transaction and the merkle branch leading up to it and can submit a modified coinbase transaction with your block.
1223 2012-08-08 21:35:45 <denisx> makomk: with getmemorypool?
1224 2012-08-08 21:36:00 Lyspooner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1226 2012-08-08 21:37:35 <makomk> denisx: nope, with getworkex. getmemorypool gives you a list of transactions and expects you to build your own coinbase transaction, make a block out of the transactions, and submit the entire block.
1227 2012-08-08 21:38:05 <denisx> makomk: is there something compatible to getworkex in bitcoind?
1228 2012-08-08 21:38:18 <denisx> I also have no problem with patching bitcoind
1229 2012-08-08 21:38:28 <sipa> getworkex could be written on top of getmemorypool
1230 2012-08-08 21:38:51 <denisx> is there some page describing getworkex?
1231 2012-08-08 21:38:55 rdponticelli has joined
1232 2012-08-08 21:40:19 <luke-jr> denisx: what uses getworkex? :p
1233 2012-08-08 21:40:33 <denisx> luke-jr: the link above from me
1234 2012-08-08 21:40:35 <luke-jr> bitcoind doesn't really work for mining
1235 2012-08-08 21:41:18 <denisx> luke-jr: for me it does
1236 2012-08-08 21:41:20 <luke-jr> looks kinda like getworkex is some non-standard alternate for getmemorypool and BIP22
1237 2012-08-08 21:41:54 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
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1239 2012-08-08 21:42:43 <denisx> luke-jr: I mean I use a pushpoold which gets the work from bitcoind
1240 2012-08-08 21:42:58 <denisx> I use bitcoind not directly for mining
1241 2012-08-08 21:44:43 <osmosis> luke-jr, for the build from your 0.5.6 tree, an exception does occurs for the older wallet import.
1242 2012-08-08 21:45:16 <luke-jr> osmosis: OK, are you familiar with git bisect?
1243 2012-08-08 21:45:59 <osmosis> nope
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1246 2012-08-08 21:47:12 <luke-jr> osmosis: git bisect start v0.5.6 v0.5.4rc3
1247 2012-08-08 21:47:25 <luke-jr> osmosis: git will pick out a version for you to test; build and test it
1248 2012-08-08 21:47:36 <luke-jr> when you are 100% certain whether it works or not, use "git bisect good" or "git bisect bad"
1249 2012-08-08 21:47:41 lukas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1250 2012-08-08 21:47:42 <luke-jr> git will give you another one to test
1251 2012-08-08 21:47:56 <luke-jr> repeat until it's happy, then it will tell you what caused the bug
1252 2012-08-08 21:48:03 <osmosis> ok
1253 2012-08-08 21:48:14 RainbowDashh has joined
1254 2012-08-08 21:50:11 <makomk> denisx: I keep meaning to port the pushpool version that uses getworkex to getmemorypool, but...
1255 2012-08-08 21:52:14 <denisx> makomk: yes, but?
1256 2012-08-08 21:52:30 <luke-jr> but why not just use Eloipool? :P
1257 2012-08-08 21:52:59 <denisx> luke-jr: because I have my own pool
1258 2012-08-08 21:53:07 <luke-jr> denisx: and?
1259 2012-08-08 21:53:49 <denisx> luke-jr: your pool is in python?
1260 2012-08-08 21:53:59 lukas has joined
1261 2012-08-08 21:54:03 <luke-jr> denisx: yes
1262 2012-08-08 21:54:05 <luke-jr> for now
1263 2012-08-08 21:54:07 <makomk> But time, effort, debugging, spectacular disorganisational skills...
1264 2012-08-08 21:54:09 <luke-jr> might port to C++ someday
1265 2012-08-08 21:54:10 <denisx> too slow for me
1266 2012-08-08 21:54:17 <luke-jr> denisx: Python isn't that slow :p
1267 2012-08-08 21:54:26 <luke-jr> performs far better than pushpool at least
1268 2012-08-08 21:54:31 <luke-jr> or rather, bitcoind
1269 2012-08-08 21:55:13 <denisx> luke-jr: I don't think so
1270 2012-08-08 21:55:39 <luke-jr> denisx: I only wrote it because pushpool/bitcoind wasn't keeping up :p
1271 2012-08-08 21:56:05 <denisx> luke-jr: how many getworks can your eloipool handle per second?
1272 2012-08-08 21:56:06 <osmosis> hmm..appears im on a revision where qmake/make  doesnt work anymore
1273 2012-08-08 21:56:25 <luke-jr> denisx: depends on CPU
1274 2012-08-08 21:57:02 slush has joined
1275 2012-08-08 21:57:34 <luke-jr> denisx: I have Eligius configured for up to 0x20000 bursts
1276 2012-08-08 21:57:43 <denisx> makomk: is there some docu where I can see how getworkex looks like?
1277 2012-08-08 21:58:05 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1278 2012-08-08 21:58:58 <denisx> luke-jr: 131072 getworks/sec?
1279 2012-08-08 21:59:15 <luke-jr> denisx: that's the burst I have configured, yes
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1281 2012-08-08 21:59:35 <sipa> 131072 getworks, or per second?
1282 2012-08-08 21:59:36 <luke-jr> looks like the server finishes it in about 0.6 seconds
1283 2012-08-08 21:59:56 <denisx> without delivering it I assume?
1284 2012-08-08 22:00:01 <luke-jr> so about 200,000 max I suppose
1285 2012-08-08 22:00:05 <luke-jr> denisx: yeah, delivery takes a bit
1286 2012-08-08 22:00:11 <denisx> this is only generating
1287 2012-08-08 22:00:25 <luke-jr> 2012-08-08 21:12:00,026 JSONRPCServer   INFO    Longpoll woke up 21308 clients in 7.725 seconds
1288 2012-08-08 22:00:47 <makomk> denisx: I'm afraid the code is the documentation for getworked, which is one reason why no-one uses it. The Bitcoin side's in https://github.com/makomk/bitcoin/tree/poolserv-work-gen
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1293 2012-08-08 22:01:33 <luke-jr> makomk: should update it to use BIP 22, since getmemorypool is about to go away ;p
1294 2012-08-08 22:01:48 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1295 2012-08-08 22:01:52 * makomk sighs
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1302 2012-08-08 22:08:31 <osmosis> luke-jr, not sure how to proceed on older rev, make: *** No rule to make target `bitcoin-qt.pro
1303 2012-08-08 22:09:11 <sipa> which command line do you use to build?
1304 2012-08-08 22:09:33 <luke-jr> osmosis: git bisect skip
1305 2012-08-08 22:09:39 <osmosis> was just using   qmake; make;
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1308 2012-08-08 22:18:04 <Graph_Theory> News of the day: Everyone hates http://www.bitcoinfans.com
1309 2012-08-08 22:18:27 <sipa> can you please stop?
1310 2012-08-08 22:18:59 <sipa> this channel is not for advertizing websites, it is about the development of bitcoin clients
1311 2012-08-08 22:22:23 <t7> no posts at all
1312 2012-08-08 22:23:17 <sipa> i don't object to people linking to interesting stuff, but please don't keep advertizing something
1313 2012-08-08 22:24:10 <t7> sipa am i right in thinking there is less than 1 transaction a second on the network?
1314 2012-08-08 22:24:35 <t7> if so my crappy ECDSA code should be quick enough :)
1315 2012-08-08 22:25:10 <osmosis> luke-jr,   they all failed, never got one that worked.  git returned, 1f56046fd529c0ef9e35d26d68995c497751c54f is the first bad commit
1316 2012-08-08 22:25:17 <BlueMatt> t7: you only get 1/sec?
1317 2012-08-08 22:25:25 <BlueMatt> and I thought bitcoinj was bad
1318 2012-08-08 22:25:30 <t7> no a bit more than that lol
1319 2012-08-08 22:25:39 <sipa> t7: which language?
1320 2012-08-08 22:25:43 <t7> haskell
1321 2012-08-08 22:26:16 <sipa> based on purecoin?
1322 2012-08-08 22:26:21 <t7> i would have used roconner's Purecoin but the code isnt very readable/maintainable
1323 2012-08-08 22:26:32 <t7> nah i implemented from a paper online
1324 2012-08-08 22:26:33 <BlueMatt> its haskell...
1325 2012-08-08 22:26:53 <sipa> haskell can be very readable or very obscure :)
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1330 2012-08-08 22:31:33 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1331 2012-08-08 22:32:10 <osmosis> hmm...appears something else in my data dir got corrupt
1332 2012-08-08 22:32:48 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1333 2012-08-08 22:33:02 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1334 2012-08-08 22:33:18 <BlueMatt> does anyone present have an opinion on how to match bloom filters?
1335 2012-08-08 22:33:35 <BlueMatt> suggestions include: match any arbitrary data block in output scripts
1336 2012-08-08 22:33:45 <BlueMatt> use standard templates and addresses
1337 2012-08-08 22:34:13 LuaKT has quit ()
1338 2012-08-08 22:36:07 <sipa> hell no
1339 2012-08-08 22:36:33 <sipa> just match on the hash of the entire script txout?
1340 2012-08-08 22:36:49 <osmosis> removed  db.log, debug.log, and database/log.0000001710 ... and error has gone away.  DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
1341 2012-08-08 22:37:15 <osmosis> now to redo the git bisect
1342 2012-08-08 22:37:52 <t7> do i get to present a talk somewhere if i get a fully verifying node working?
1343 2012-08-08 22:39:24 Karmaon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1344 2012-08-08 22:39:26 <t7> then i will live on forever on youtube
1345 2012-08-08 22:39:58 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1346 2012-08-08 22:40:09 <sipa> do you want that;
1347 2012-08-08 22:40:12 <sipa> ?
1348 2012-08-08 22:40:32 Karmaon6 has joined
1349 2012-08-08 22:50:57 <t7> yeah i need to start a github with my real name too
1350 2012-08-08 22:53:11 <t7> get some web presence
1351 2012-08-08 22:53:28 <t7> then get a job that isnt windows workstation/server support
1352 2012-08-08 22:53:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: match the entire script of the txout? yuck...so now for each pubkey in your wallet you need 20 entries in the filter?
1353 2012-08-08 22:54:03 <sipa> ??
1354 2012-08-08 22:54:09 BGL has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1355 2012-08-08 22:54:26 <sipa> just one...
1356 2012-08-08 22:54:49 <BlueMatt> one for p2sh, 1 for p2pubkey, 1 for p2address,....
1357 2012-08-08 22:55:03 <sipa> one for each address you accept coins with
1358 2012-08-08 22:55:19 <sipa> and that is typically just one per key
1359 2012-08-08 22:55:42 <BlueMatt> wait, what? so how are you matching the entire script with just the pubkey?
1360 2012-08-08 22:55:58 <sipa> ?
1361 2012-08-08 22:56:18 <sipa> pubkey -> address -> script -> scripthash
1362 2012-08-08 22:56:37 <sipa> and put the scripthash in the filter
1363 2012-08-08 22:56:54 <BlueMatt> ok, so match using standard templates
1364 2012-08-08 22:57:01 <sipa> no
1365 2012-08-08 22:57:13 <sipa> you match on the hash of the script
1366 2012-08-08 22:57:25 <sipa> so you can choose to select for any script
1367 2012-08-08 22:57:28 <BlueMatt> wait, Im clearly very confused
1368 2012-08-08 22:57:43 <sipa> not just standard ones
1369 2012-08-08 22:57:49 <BlueMatt> and now if you get a pay to pubkey instead of pay to pubkey hash?
1370 2012-08-08 22:57:57 <BlueMatt> are both scripts not in the filter?
1371 2012-08-08 22:58:03 <sipa> if you need them to
1372 2012-08-08 22:58:09 <sipa> but you shouldn't
1373 2012-08-08 22:58:36 <BlueMatt> uhh...
1374 2012-08-08 22:58:43 <sipa> if i don't give out my pubkey to anyone, i can't accept a payment to a pubkey
1375 2012-08-08 22:59:15 <sipa> if my client does give out such addresses or info, then yes, it should also include it in the filter
1376 2012-08-08 22:59:15 <BlueMatt> but you could get p2sh payment with only giving out your address
1377 2012-08-08 22:59:34 <sipa> i would consider that incredibly stupid behavior
1378 2012-08-08 22:59:35 <BlueMatt> hmm...yea, I dont like having to put multiple entries per pubkey in a filter
1379 2012-08-08 22:59:53 <sipa> if i don't give out an address, i am not accepting something
1380 2012-08-08 22:59:54 <BlueMatt> I would too, but you know anyone implementing a bloom filter client is gonna throw in everything they think may match
1381 2012-08-08 23:00:05 <sipa> they can
1382 2012-08-08 23:00:21 <BlueMatt> and for something like bitcoinj, you really cant say anything about what the user may/may not have given out
1383 2012-08-08 23:00:32 <sipa> why not?
1384 2012-08-08 23:00:39 <BlueMatt> so now bitcoinj is (at least) tripping the size of each bloom filter
1385 2012-08-08 23:00:59 <sipa> tripping*
1386 2012-08-08 23:01:02 <sipa> ?
1387 2012-08-08 23:01:06 Cablesaurus has joined
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1389 2012-08-08 23:01:19 <BlueMatt> because the bloom filter would be implemented at the library level, whereas control of what the user has seen is higher level?
1390 2012-08-08 23:01:23 <BlueMatt> (damn autocorrect)
1391 2012-08-08 23:01:32 <sipa> i see
1392 2012-08-08 23:01:52 <sipa> so you're forced to include anything the client on top of it can accept?
1393 2012-08-08 23:01:59 <BlueMatt> yea
1394 2012-08-08 23:02:06 <vigilyn> why would someone pay a 25 btc fee on a bogus looking transaction like this: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/14977313/143f1337d202dc06063cf66d1d91081079ee2292622396ee6e07a5a54b0c7cc3
1395 2012-08-08 23:02:09 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1396 2012-08-08 23:02:33 <sipa> meh, i really hate the fact that send-to-address-via-blockchain has become the common transaction form (even the only one...)
1397 2012-08-08 23:02:51 <BlueMatt> agreed
1398 2012-08-08 23:03:04 <BlueMatt> but that doesnt mean we can ignore it ;)
1399 2012-08-08 23:03:11 <sipa> unfortunately
1400 2012-08-08 23:03:28 <Eliel> what's wrong with send-to-address-via-blockchain?
1401 2012-08-08 23:03:40 <sipa> the blockchain is not a communication channel
1402 2012-08-08 23:04:10 <sipa> it is slow, expensive, public, and cannot convey metadata about a transaction
1403 2012-08-08 23:04:55 <Eliel> I'm not sure I understand. What communication?
1404 2012-08-08 23:05:28 <sipa> with send-to-IP (or to URL, or via any other direct protocol), you can just negotiate the script directly, and send the transaction along with any metadata (comments, return address, ...) directly to the receiver
1405 2012-08-08 23:06:09 <sipa> it is so much cleaner than waiting and polling for transactions, and scanning the entire blockchain for it
1406 2012-08-08 23:07:44 <sipa> furthermore, in many cases you are already communicating with the receiver of the transaction anyway (IM, mail, website of a merchant...)
1407 2012-08-08 23:08:24 <sipa> but we still negotiate an address there, broadcast the transaction, hope that it arrives quickly at the destination, ...
1408 2012-08-08 23:09:13 Clipse has quit (Quit: Clipse)
1409 2012-08-08 23:09:27 <sipa> so the burden of getting the transaction accepted by the network is taken by the sender, which is weird
1410 2012-08-08 23:09:43 <sipa> the sender should only care to get his transaction to the receiver
1411 2012-08-08 23:10:06 <sipa> it is the receiver who cares about getting it accepted by the network
1412 2012-08-08 23:10:30 paraipan_ has joined
1413 2012-08-08 23:10:34 <sipa> </rant>
1414 2012-08-08 23:10:50 Clipse has joined
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1417 2012-08-08 23:15:13 <t7> but you can send money to people who are afk
1418 2012-08-08 23:16:36 <t7> on holiday with computer off
1419 2012-08-08 23:17:27 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1422 2012-08-08 23:19:18 <sipa> t7: you can send me a mail too when my computer is off
1423 2012-08-08 23:19:47 <sipa> i can choose a server that i trust which can deal with people that want to pay me
1424 2012-08-08 23:19:55 <sipa> it's trivial to do, really
1425 2012-08-08 23:20:09 <t7> so its not in the chain until you verify it?
1426 2012-08-08 23:20:28 <sipa> the receiver verifies it, and broadcasts it
1427 2012-08-08 23:21:21 gjs278 has joined
1428 2012-08-08 23:21:26 <sipa> and he can choose to accept it immediately (if it doesn't look suspicious and doesn't care about the double-spend risk), or choose to wait before a payment is considered confirmed
1429 2012-08-08 23:21:26 <t7> it would be a nightmare to keep track of what you have spent... unless you put time limit on tx
1430 2012-08-08 23:21:33 <sipa> ?
1431 2012-08-08 23:22:01 <sipa> the moment you send the tx to a receiver, you consider it spemt
1432 2012-08-08 23:22:07 <sipa> spent
1433 2012-08-08 23:22:39 <t7> yeah im overcomplicating it
1434 2012-08-08 23:22:44 lukas has joined
1435 2012-08-08 23:23:04 <sipa> this was originally the way satoshi envisioned transactions, by the way
1436 2012-08-08 23:23:35 <sipa> send-to-address was added later i think, and mostly meant for more anonymous transactions or where thr receiver was offline
1437 2012-08-08 23:23:48 Lolcust has joined
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1444 2012-08-08 23:26:53 <t7> does the client have a way to import txs ?
1445 2012-08-08 23:27:16 <t7> i havnt seen it
1446 2012-08-08 23:28:01 <t7> send to ip is like that
1447 2012-08-08 23:28:06 <Graph_Theory> Wanna hear a joke?
1448 2012-08-08 23:28:07 <Graph_Theory> http://www.bitcoinfans.com
1449 2012-08-08 23:28:26 lukas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1450 2012-08-08 23:30:19 denisx has joined
1451 2012-08-08 23:33:09 lukas has joined
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1453 2012-08-08 23:38:30 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1454 2012-08-08 23:38:41 cheako has joined
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1456 2012-08-08 23:42:49 <MC-Eeepc> someone ban Graph_Theory
1457 2012-08-08 23:44:34 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1458 2012-08-08 23:47:52 <Graph_Theory> lol
1459 2012-08-08 23:48:03 <Graph_Theory> A --> B --> A
1460 2012-08-08 23:48:07 <Graph_Theory> this is a loo
1461 2012-08-08 23:48:09 <Graph_Theory> *loop
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