1 2012-08-09 00:01:14 extor has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
   2 2012-08-09 00:04:28 <t7> a -> b -> a   is a valid theorem
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   5 2012-08-09 00:11:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: is it worth using my crappy dnsseeder just to have network diversity, or should I just switch to yours?
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  14 2012-08-09 00:24:30 <t7> BitcoinPullTester is pretty cool then :)
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  16 2012-08-09 00:25:18 <BlueMatt> it may come in handy
  17 2012-08-09 00:25:29 <BlueMatt> needs more unit tests though
  18 2012-08-09 00:28:28 <Graph_Theory> brb
  19 2012-08-09 00:28:29 <Graph_Theory> jog
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  33 2012-08-09 00:46:55 <luke-jr> osmosis: but you're sure 0.5.4rc3 worked?
  34 2012-08-09 00:47:27 <osmosis> luke-jr, im redoing my tests now.  i had to clear out the entire data dir each time, not just the wallet.dat file.
  35 2012-08-09 00:48:27 <osmosis> one of these was causing the error to repeat.  db.log, debug.log, and database/log.0000001710
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  38 2012-08-09 00:54:29 <osmosis> luke-jr, here is the bisect result,  http://bpaste.net/show/6tR66hl3ErhOK0pLBo1X/
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  41 2012-08-09 00:55:04 <bitcoinfans> http://pastebin.com/ is better
  42 2012-08-09 00:55:27 <luke-jr> if you like ads
  43 2012-08-09 00:55:52 <luke-jr> osmosis: why did you skip those? O.o
  44 2012-08-09 00:56:24 <t7> does bitcoind have seperate tables in the db for txs and blocks?
  45 2012-08-09 00:56:27 <osmosis> luke-jr, none of those were buildable with  qmake; make; "No rule to make target `bitcoin-qt.pro'"
  46 2012-08-09 00:56:28 <luke-jr> I'm pretty confident that none of those are the problem :/
  47 2012-08-09 00:57:05 <luke-jr> ah
  48 2012-08-09 00:57:59 <luke-jr> anyhow, there's basically zero chance any of those are to blame, so some bisect answer must have been wrong :/
  49 2012-08-09 00:58:42 <osmosis> luke-jr, here is the bisect log, maybe helpful,  http://bpaste.net/show/QjClhhgzUF7d1gAWwgyW/
  50 2012-08-09 00:59:16 <luke-jr> that log is way too short to be a whole bisect between 0.5.4rc3 and 0.5.6
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  64 2012-08-09 01:08:15 <osmosis> luke-jr, should I do the bisect over again?
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  70 2012-08-09 01:12:33 <luke-jr> osmosis: git bisect reset && git bisect start v0.5.6 v0.5.4rc3
  71 2012-08-09 01:18:07 <devrandom> BlueMatt: the downloader configs in contrib/gitian-downloader point to non-existent places
  72 2012-08-09 01:22:00 <devrandom> luke-jr: where's the right place to download a recent bitcoin gitian zip?
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  78 2012-08-09 01:32:21 <luke-jr> devrandom: ?
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  89 2012-08-09 01:52:45 <devrandom> luke-jr: a gitian zip is a bitcoin downloadable zip where the assertions and signatures are part of the zip, in the "gitian" directory
  90 2012-08-09 01:53:00 <devrandom> just wondering if anybody distributes one
  91 2012-08-09 01:53:21 <luke-jr> don't think so
  92 2012-08-09 01:53:27 <devrandom> ah, ok
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 106 2012-08-09 02:22:39 <osmosis> luke-jr, git bisect results identical after second round.
 107 2012-08-09 02:23:29 <luke-jr> O.o
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 109 2012-08-09 02:24:12 <osmosis> issue updated: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1663
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 112 2012-08-09 02:30:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: right now there are some scaling issues with mine
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 140 2012-08-09 04:05:52 <devrandom> gmaxwell: BlueMatt: gitian-updater now has a waiting period option.  It keeps the package in a temp dir until the waiting period expires.  Also started on some unit tests.
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 148 2012-08-09 04:50:26 <weex> has it been fully verified now that encrypting a wallet with bitcoin-qt leaves no trace of the privkeys on the system?
 149 2012-08-09 04:50:43 <weex> i mean does the program make a copy and delete the old one or rewrite to the same file?
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 171 2012-08-09 06:30:28 <wumpus> weex: yes, with 6.0+ it does
 172 2012-08-09 06:30:52 <weex> it does what?
 173 2012-08-09 06:31:08 <wumpus> already forgot your question?
 174 2012-08-09 06:31:40 <weex> well my question wasn't yes or now :P
 175 2012-08-09 06:31:43 <weex> no*
 176 2012-08-09 06:32:17 <weex> so it overwrites the same file then?
 177 2012-08-09 06:32:23 <Ferroh> your first question was yes or no :)
 178 2012-08-09 06:32:46 * weex notes next time to only ask one yes or no question at a time
 179 2012-08-09 06:33:03 <weex> gots to keep it simple
 180 2012-08-09 06:33:50 <wumpus> it resilvers the wallet
 181 2012-08-09 06:34:15 <weex> what is a resilver?
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 183 2012-08-09 06:34:48 <wumpus> starting from scratch
 184 2012-08-09 06:36:23 <weex> any possibility of the plain-text being recovered from a low-level scan of the stroage device?
 185 2012-08-09 06:36:44 <wumpus> that's always possible
 186 2012-08-09 06:36:52 <wumpus> just not a low level scan of the file
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 188 2012-08-09 06:37:52 <wumpus> with modern file systems it's impossible to guarantee that the data is not still somewhere
 189 2012-08-09 06:38:09 <weex> hmmm, that's a problem
 190 2012-08-09 06:38:14 <Ferroh> weex: why?
 191 2012-08-09 06:38:19 <wumpus> ie in some journal or staging area
 192 2012-08-09 06:38:42 <weex> because if someone has stored the unencrypted wallet, they may think they're safe once it's encrypted
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 194 2012-08-09 06:38:45 <wumpus> there are utilities to wipe the unused space but ofcourse the paranoid question remains :-) there's nothing bitcoin can do about it, at lesat
 195 2012-08-09 06:38:52 <Ferroh> weex: just use 0.6+ on a livecd (or liveusb) then copy new wallet.dat onto a new system
 196 2012-08-09 06:39:18 <weex> Ferroh: good idea, i got this question from the wiki since it had a part about erasing plain-text wallets
 197 2012-08-09 06:39:34 <weex> then i thought well what about the normal process with the latest client
 198 2012-08-09 06:39:54 <weex> on setup, it would be good to have an option to make a new wallet that's encrypted from the start
 199 2012-08-09 06:40:08 <wumpus> yes, that would be useful
 200 2012-08-09 06:40:14 <weex> but the livecd method works until then for the truly paranoid
 201 2012-08-09 06:40:38 <wumpus> maybe submit an issue on github
 202 2012-08-09 06:41:00 <weex> "hey, i noticed you don't have a wallet file yet, would you like it to be encrypted from the start?"
 203 2012-08-09 06:41:09 <weex> ok, will do
 204 2012-08-09 06:41:14 <wumpus> I think there were plans for a born encrypted walet, but it was never implemented AFAIK
 205 2012-08-09 06:43:14 <weex> oh, it was discussed before?
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 208 2012-08-09 06:44:10 <wumpus> yes a long time ago, when encrypted wallets were introduced
 209 2012-08-09 06:45:57 <wumpus> I don't know why it was never done, it maybe difficult to implement due to some reason, or it was just forgotten
 210 2012-08-09 06:47:03 <weex> i can't find an issue so i'll make one
 211 2012-08-09 06:47:25 <wumpus> good
 212 2012-08-09 06:51:21 <wumpus> BlueMatt: it would be cool if the pulltester slapped a 'Testing OK' or 'Testing NOK' label on pulls that were tested, to see it in the overview... though it seems that github doesn't display labels for pull requests :/
 213 2012-08-09 06:54:08 <wumpus> which is curious, as pull requests do show up in the issue overview with labels. hm seems I'm not the first to think of this http://devblog.springest.com/dear-github-please-fix-your-pull-requests
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 216 2012-08-09 06:59:05 <luke-jr> wumpus: non-committers can't use labels at all
 217 2012-08-09 07:00:22 <weex> i didn't realize github is like a chatroom
 218 2012-08-09 07:00:50 <luke-jr> lol
 219 2012-08-09 07:02:21 <wumpus> luke-jr: right, buteven committers can't assign labels to pull requests through the pull request view (nor see them), but they can see and manipulate labels on the same 'objects' in the issues view...
 220 2012-08-09 07:02:40 <luke-jr> wumpus: yes, I know ;)
 221 2012-08-09 07:02:55 <luke-jr> probably because Issues were implemented later
 222 2012-08-09 07:03:05 <wumpus> a really strange omission
 223 2012-08-09 07:03:06 <wumpus> yes, could be
 224 2012-08-09 07:03:16 <wumpus> when I started on github they already both existed
 225 2012-08-09 07:03:35 <luke-jr> same here, but it's obvious which came first IMO :p
 226 2012-08-09 07:04:41 <luke-jr> I wish someone would make a free clone of GitHub - Gitorious really doesn't compare. :/
 227 2012-08-09 07:05:25 <luke-jr> (or even better: Launchpad with git support)
 228 2012-08-09 07:05:30 <wumpus> weex: it's not really suited as a discussion forum, as everythinga ppears in one long thread, but at least it's easier to refer to than a chat on irc
 229 2012-08-09 07:06:00 <wumpus> yes that would be nice
 230 2012-08-09 07:07:12 <weex> i guess it comes down to what to tell a new user who wants to be secure, don't use an address before encrypting
 231 2012-08-09 07:07:27 danbri has joined
 232 2012-08-09 07:08:02 <weex> or put another way, immediately encrypt your wallet before doing anything else
 233 2012-08-09 07:08:36 <wumpus> it would still be nice to ask the user automatically
 234 2012-08-09 07:09:06 <weex> yeah sort of encouraging best practices with ui flow
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 236 2012-08-09 07:09:44 <wumpus> 'this is your only chance to make a truly secure wallet!' lol
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 239 2012-08-09 07:10:59 <weex> yeah a Danger sign and a scared clippy would be good
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 245 2012-08-09 07:27:19 <amiller> what should I call it if I want to talk about a hypothetical future bitcoin with certain qualities, like scale-invariance
 246 2012-08-09 07:28:14 <amiller> i'm talking _about_ bitcoin, since there's really only room/need for one of these things, at least there will clearly be one best one.
 247 2012-08-09 07:28:34 <amiller> although any good idea that's talked about could and would go in an alt chain first
 248 2012-08-09 07:31:16 <amiller> maybe all that's missing is codewords to describe some different scopes of bitcoin conversation, researchcoin or futurecoin or such
 249 2012-08-09 07:33:17 <amiller> for things less urgent than a bip, but not necessarily less important
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 253 2012-08-09 07:43:18 <weex> yeah the terminology could use some work
 254 2012-08-09 07:43:31 <weex> bitcoin-like
 255 2012-08-09 07:43:36 <weex> blockchain-based
 256 2012-08-09 07:44:40 <weex> i think altcoin or altchain is most often used for a system with significant differences
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 260 2012-08-09 07:46:16 <sytse> or just for evil attempts to make money out of nothing, under the pretense of 'significant differences'
 261 2012-08-09 07:46:31 <sytse> which bitcoin was as well of course but still :D
 262 2012-08-09 07:46:33 <amiller> right, that's exactly what i don't mean to associate with
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 264 2012-08-09 07:47:04 <weex> it can't be ignored that nobody would have any investment in a system with such differences
 265 2012-08-09 07:47:41 <amiller> i think that most people (and i) also feel that there's really only need for one of these things
 266 2012-08-09 07:47:53 <amiller> it's wide and open, like the internet. there aren't lots of competing internets, since that's not at all the point
 267 2012-08-09 07:48:04 <sytse> there were
 268 2012-08-09 07:48:07 <sytse> but not anymore
 269 2012-08-09 07:48:12 <sytse> (think minitel)
 270 2012-08-09 07:48:24 <amiller> the solution is typically to pick the largest and build on that
 271 2012-08-09 07:48:44 <weex> i thought for a time it might be interesting to have a chain that served as a way to fund a company by having some fraction of mined coins assigned to the company's treasury
 272 2012-08-09 07:50:23 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 273 2012-08-09 07:51:11 <weex> i guess you just talk about a bip
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 276 2012-08-09 08:06:44 <amiller> "bitcoin 2.0" and "hard fork wishlist" may be relevant
 277 2012-08-09 08:07:21 <amiller> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist#Major_structural_changes
 278 2012-08-09 08:07:50 <amiller> for example if you look there, the first category has two forum threads that are both equivalent/predecessors to etotheipi's current post
 279 2012-08-09 08:08:28 <amiller> they used to call it "flip the chain" but now it's "merkle trees" and "coinbase commitment" and UTXO
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 281 2012-08-09 08:16:18 <sytse> what's next? Quantum cryptography?
 282 2012-08-09 08:16:34 <amiller> quantum cryptography is in a whole other category
 283 2012-08-09 08:16:35 <sytse> a COBOL port?
 284 2012-08-09 08:16:50 <amiller> all of the above topics are all based on simple uses of collision resistant hashes
 285 2012-08-09 08:17:06 <amiller> i guess you would have to agree on some of the goals
 286 2012-08-09 08:17:16 <sytse> a millisecond-per-block subtree that's merged back into the main one?
 287 2012-08-09 08:17:28 <amiller> would everyone agree that the ideal form of bitcoin would eventually come to an agreement no matter what
 288 2012-08-09 08:17:30 <sytse> amiller: yes :)
 289 2012-08-09 08:17:59 <sytse> merkle trees don't seem like a bad idea
 290 2012-08-09 08:18:07 <amiller> it's been said that bitcoin solves the byzantine generals problem, but really it solves some different variant of the problem in a model that no one has looked at before
 291 2012-08-09 08:18:23 <amiller> so even from a theoretical point of view there's work to do just clarifying what the point is and how you'd tell if it's working or not
 292 2012-08-09 08:19:33 <amiller> i don't have a problem with something like checkpoints, especially as a practical decision now, but i would be a bit disappointed if the only possibility was to rely on them forever, if there was no other way.
 293 2012-08-09 08:21:14 <amiller> i'm sure that 99% of suggested "improvements" are going to turn out to be totally worthless.
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 298 2012-08-09 08:32:38 <weex> so in the byzantine generals problem, bitcoin seems to offer another solution in giving the generals a problem that is hard to solve so only one of them is likely to solve it every so often.
 299 2012-08-09 08:36:12 <sytse> byzantine generals with lots of sudoku puzzles
 300 2012-08-09 08:36:33 <sytse> and they get warhorses when they solve one
 301 2012-08-09 08:36:59 <weex> they have to send around beautifully carved sapphires
 302 2012-08-09 08:37:31 <sytse> ah, and use their slaves to mine and carve them
 303 2012-08-09 08:37:45 <weex> proof of work.
 304 2012-08-09 08:38:07 <sytse> hopefully though, hannibal doesn't infiltrate the generals
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 306 2012-08-09 08:38:10 <sytse> that'd be a problem
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 308 2012-08-09 08:39:00 <weex> as long as he doens't infiltrate too many of them
 309 2012-08-09 08:39:07 <sytse> I meant
 310 2012-08-09 08:39:22 <sytse> hannibal has *lots* of slaves willing to work for overthrowing the system
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 314 2012-08-09 08:43:53 <weex> yeah, well if all the generals are surrounded anyway it makes the decision rather pointless
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 328 2012-08-09 08:56:07 <amiller> the reason i say it doesn't solve the byzantine generals problem is that that problem requires everyone not just to come to an agreement, but to declare they've reached agreement
 329 2012-08-09 08:56:11 <amiller> it's about having a final answer
 330 2012-08-09 08:56:21 <amiller> a more interesting (and more modern) problem is called stabilizing consensus
 331 2012-08-09 08:56:53 <amiller> where the requirement is that you eventually converge. but it's not necessarily the case that you can say for sure that it has happened
 332 2012-08-09 08:57:07 <amiller> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.60.1040&rep=rep1&type=pdf
 333 2012-08-09 08:57:40 <amiller> this was introduced by Dana Angluin (by far one of the most famous distributed systems researchers) in 2006
 334 2012-08-09 08:57:44 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 336 2012-08-09 08:58:03 <amiller> for that matter, dijkstra is credited with the term "self-stabilizing system"
 337 2012-08-09 08:58:16 Goilio has joined
 338 2012-08-09 08:59:48 <amiller> but the truth is there are so many plausible subtleties, and in the last thirty years every little variation of the problem leads to different and often unexpected results
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 342 2012-08-09 09:00:47 <amiller> the fact that bitcoin is about a network with unknown size and unknown identities places it outside the scope of 98% of distributed systems research
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 347 2012-08-09 09:03:01 <amiller> there's no reason to think it's impossible, although it's most likely the case that if we avoid making hard assumptions, we should be focusing on the family of 33% problems rather than the 51% problems
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 351 2012-08-09 09:11:19 <sipa> amiller: worry about upgrading the existing chain later; i think it's more interesting to think about something bitcoin-like
 352 2012-08-09 09:13:32 <amiller> i suppose that's the way to go
 353 2012-08-09 09:14:27 <t7> is there a schema for the bitcoind database(s) anywhere?
 354 2012-08-09 09:14:56 <sipa> i've been thinking about other improvements some time ago with roconnor
 355 2012-08-09 09:15:22 <sipa> i don't think all of it was ever written down, though
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 358 2012-08-09 09:17:30 <sipa> t7: no schema, they are just key-value stores
 359 2012-08-09 09:17:56 <t7> sipa: is there a table for blocks and one for transactions or something
 360 2012-08-09 09:18:00 <sipa> no
 361 2012-08-09 09:18:02 <t7> i need to dig through the code
 362 2012-08-09 09:18:14 <sipa> one tableper file
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 377 2012-08-09 09:43:37 <t7> there are so many 100+ line functions in bitcoin
 378 2012-08-09 09:44:13 <sipa> patches welcome
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 421 2012-08-09 12:16:41 <[Tycho]> ::bc,help
 422 2012-08-09 12:16:45 <[Tycho]> ::bc.help
 423 2012-08-09 12:17:01 <[Tycho]> ;;bc.help
 424 2012-08-09 12:17:01 <gribble> Error: "bc.help" is not a valid command.
 425 2012-08-09 12:17:03 <sipa> ;;bc,help
 426 2012-08-09 12:17:03 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blockdiff, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,bounty, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,diffchange, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,halfreward, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,intersango, Alias (2 more messages)
 427 2012-08-09 12:17:09 <[Tycho]> Thanks.
 428 2012-08-09 12:17:25 <sipa> ;;bc,halfreward
 429 2012-08-09 12:17:26 <gribble> Estimated time of bitcoin block reward halving: Tue Dec  4 22:52:00 2012 | Time remaining: 16 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 40 minutes, and 0 seconds
 430 2012-08-09 12:17:44 <[Tycho]> What was that one to see the probability of not finding any block in a year with 10 GH/s ?
 431 2012-08-09 12:18:03 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,calc 10000000
 432 2012-08-09 12:18:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2036671.0886933 , is 1 week, 3 days, 2 hours, 59 minutes, and 3 seconds
 433 2012-08-09 12:18:37 <[Tycho]> There was some command showing probability...
 434 2012-08-09 12:18:41 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 436 2012-08-09 12:18:55 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,estimete
 437 2012-08-09 12:18:55 <gribble> Error: "bc,estimete" is not a valid command.
 438 2012-08-09 12:18:58 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,estimate
 439 2012-08-09 12:18:58 <gribble> 2146729.71298704
 440 2012-08-09 12:19:28 ThomasV has joined
 441 2012-08-09 12:20:31 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob
 442 2012-08-09 12:20:31 <gribble> (bc,prob <an alias, at least 1 argument>) -- Alias for "math calc 1-exp(-$1*1000 * [seconds $*] / (2**32* [bc,diff]))".
 443 2012-08-09 12:20:38 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 10000000
 444 2012-08-09 12:20:39 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression.  Please remove them.
 445 2012-08-09 12:20:57 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 10000
 446 2012-08-09 12:20:57 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression.  Please remove them.
 447 2012-08-09 12:21:10 <sipa> stupid bot
 448 2012-08-09 12:21:30 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 1h
 449 2012-08-09 12:21:30 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression.  Please remove them.
 450 2012-08-09 12:21:34 <[Tycho]> Do you knoq how to use this command ?
 451 2012-08-09 12:21:51 <sipa> yes, with a time after it
 452 2012-08-09 12:22:06 <sipa> but it doesn't seem to work
 453 2012-08-09 12:22:11 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 10000000 1h
 454 2012-08-09 12:22:11 <gribble> 0.0041070347725
 455 2012-08-09 12:22:15 <[Tycho]> Cool
 456 2012-08-09 12:22:18 <sipa> doh
 457 2012-08-09 12:22:25 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 10000000 1y
 458 2012-08-09 12:22:26 <gribble> 1.0
 459 2012-08-09 12:22:35 <[Tycho]> 1.0, really ?
 460 2012-08-09 12:23:09 <sipa> with 10GH you have 100% chance to find a block in a year, yes
 461 2012-08-09 12:23:16 <[Tycho]> Seems a bit wrong to me.
 462 2012-08-09 12:23:27 <[Tycho]> It should never reach 100%, no ?
 463 2012-08-09 12:23:40 <sipa> well, 0.999999999999999 something
 464 2012-08-09 12:23:51 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 10000000 1m
 465 2012-08-09 12:23:51 <gribble> 6.85891777098e-05
 466 2012-08-09 12:24:42 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 1000000 1y
 467 2012-08-09 12:24:43 <gribble> 0.972817198941
 468 2012-08-09 12:24:59 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 5000000 1y
 469 2012-08-09 12:24:59 <gribble> 0.999999985159
 470 2012-08-09 12:25:54 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yea, we have instructions for making a gitian zip in doc/release-process.,txt, but I dont think its ever actually happened yet
 471 2012-08-09 12:28:41 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 2000000 1y
 472 2012-08-09 12:28:41 <gribble> 0.999261095327
 473 2012-08-09 12:41:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, Ill install mine again then, though Im really looking forward to switching
 474 2012-08-09 12:41:50 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 475 2012-08-09 12:42:18 <sipa> it works, but from time to time it starts using a lot of CPU, and eventually, if you kill it then, the datafile is gone
 476 2012-08-09 12:42:34 <sipa> several bugs that are easy to fix, but i'd rather do it right in one go
 477 2012-08-09 12:43:20 <BlueMatt> fair enough
 478 2012-08-09 12:44:00 <BlueMatt> for those who's pulls were marked as failed earlier, sorry, disk space ran out in /var/www, Ive deleted a few comments and reset a few pulls
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 489 2012-08-09 13:04:35 <sead> hi - i would like to have some help/hint - can anyone tell me the price and amount of Tid 1344515801056587 (bid) mtgox trade? (got strange values here)
 490 2012-08-09 13:04:55 <sipa> ask MagicalTux
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 493 2012-08-09 13:06:11 <sead> thx
 494 2012-08-09 13:06:47 <Ferroh> so does the "target-confirmations" parameter in the listsinceblock RPC call basically just get ignored?
 495 2012-08-09 13:06:55 <Ferroh> it doesn't seem to have any effect
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 518 2012-08-09 13:30:11 <t7> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_system
 519 2012-08-09 13:30:18 <t7> libboost-dev is already the newest version.
 520 2012-08-09 13:30:23 <t7> wut
 521 2012-08-09 13:31:53 <t7> ah its separate now
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 523 2012-08-09 13:35:24 <t7> ive really fucked up this sid install
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 531 2012-08-09 13:50:39 <Ferroh> weex: you could also just create a new wallet, then encrypt it, and then ask for 101 addresses. Only 100 addresses were created unencrypted so just don't use those.
 532 2012-08-09 13:51:24 <wumpus> you don't have to 'ask for 101 addresses' even
 533 2012-08-09 13:51:28 comboy has joined
 534 2012-08-09 13:52:41 <BlueMatt> you could start with keypoolsize=0
 535 2012-08-09 13:53:14 lukas has joined
 536 2012-08-09 13:54:06 <sipa> when you encrypt a wallet, all old addresses are marked used
 537 2012-08-09 13:54:30 <sipa> so any new address you ask for afterwards will always be one that never touched disk in unencrypted form
 538 2012-08-09 13:54:41 [\\\] has joined
 539 2012-08-09 14:04:48 <Eliel> while on this topic, what is it, exactly, that happens if you have encrypted wallet and run out of keypool while mining?
 540 2012-08-09 14:05:05 <Eliel> I have heard lots of people say "don't mine on encrypted wallet" but not the reason :)
 541 2012-08-09 14:05:14 unknown45682 has quit ()
 542 2012-08-09 14:05:22 <BlueMatt> it re-uses existing keys for new coinbases
 543 2012-08-09 14:05:35 <BlueMatt> specifically, the default key iirc
 544 2012-08-09 14:05:49 CodesInChaos has joined
 545 2012-08-09 14:05:55 <gmaxwell> Eliel: Where did you hear this?
 546 2012-08-09 14:06:13 <Eliel> too long ago to remember :)
 547 2012-08-09 14:06:34 <Eliel> someone was just asking me about it so I thought I'd go find out what happens really :)
 548 2012-08-09 14:06:35 <BlueMatt> wait, no, that cant be right
 549 2012-08-09 14:06:40 <BlueMatt> hmm...I dont remember
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 552 2012-08-09 14:08:25 <t7> i think it should ask if you want encryption when you first start
 553 2012-08-09 14:08:34 <t7> seems like a good idea
 554 2012-08-09 14:08:47 <gmaxwell> t7: thats a fantastic way to cause the loss of coins.
 555 2012-08-09 14:09:10 <t7> people forgetting their passwords?
 556 2012-08-09 14:09:27 <gmaxwell> Especially some password they got prompted for before ever using bitcoin at all.
 557 2012-08-09 14:09:41 <t7> put a disclaimer under the password box
 558 2012-08-09 14:09:45 <t7> or something
 559 2012-08-09 14:09:55 <sipa> disclaimers may help you avoid lawsuits
 560 2012-08-09 14:09:57 <gmaxwell> Come on, you know that won't help.
 561 2012-08-09 14:10:00 <sipa> it will not help people to remember it
 562 2012-08-09 14:10:01 <gmaxwell> Right.
 563 2012-08-09 14:10:10 <t7> gmaxwell: i thought it was only gonna be a choice
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 565 2012-08-09 14:10:15 <t7> not forced to encrypt
 566 2012-08-09 14:10:37 <sipa> i wouldn't be opposed to a command-line option to have the wallet start in encrypted form, though
 567 2012-08-09 14:10:41 <gmaxwell> In any case, I've not seen any evidence that what we currently have isn't sufficient.
 568 2012-08-09 14:11:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: "meh". If you're going to remember to set the option you might as well turn on encrypt first thing you do.
 569 2012-08-09 14:12:30 <sipa> though i think the real solution is multi-wallet support, and a dialog "create new wallet" with some advanced tab with settings like deterministic wallet seed, keypool size, encryption, ...
 570 2012-08-09 14:12:50 copumpkin is now known as NotAScammer
 571 2012-08-09 14:12:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure, that sounds reasonable.
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 573 2012-08-09 14:13:46 <t7> i guess the client for joe average will have to be one that only downloads block headers too
 574 2012-08-09 14:14:13 <gmaxwell> Perhaps, but thats not necessarily an "or" there.
 575 2012-08-09 14:14:55 <gmaxwell> It's perfectly possible to have a client that starts off as a SPV node, but if the system has resources it quietly becomes a full  (or half-full, once we can do that) node in the background.
 576 2012-08-09 14:15:34 NotAScammer is now known as copumpkin
 577 2012-08-09 14:18:17 <wumpus> I do think most people expect to enter a password on first wallet creation... I mean, how many e-wallet services work without a password?  it encourages some security by default
 578 2012-08-09 14:19:02 <sipa> maybe force entering the password at startup (only in GUI mode though)?
 579 2012-08-09 14:19:15 <gmaxwell> instawallet does— but generally,  all these things that people normally use "passwords" for are _passwords_ not cryptographic keys. They're recoverable if lost.
 580 2012-08-09 14:19:26 <wumpus> force? it doesn't have to be mandatory
 581 2012-08-09 14:19:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: that is guarenteed loss unless you also force them to back up the password.
 582 2012-08-09 14:19:39 <sipa> right
 583 2012-08-09 14:20:07 <wumpus> also a lot of people have shared computers, so locking makes sense
 584 2012-08-09 14:20:30 <gmaxwell> When people startup bitcoin they don't yet have anything valuable in it, so they'll just blah blah past prompts.
 585 2012-08-09 14:21:10 <wumpus> something like bitcoin shouldn't be unencrypted by default, ideally
 586 2012-08-09 14:21:15 <BlueMatt> hmm...I know we discussed the issue before wallet crypto was merged, but apparently not...it will gladly reuse the default key in coinbase (and thus break bip30)
 587 2012-08-09 14:21:20 <Ferroh> ugh, from urllib2 documentation "HTTPS requests do not do any verification of the server’s certificate." umm maybe these guys should get on that...
 588 2012-08-09 14:21:30 <BlueMatt> so, turns out Eliel was right, dont mine on an encrypted wallet, afaict
 589 2012-08-09 14:21:32 <gmaxwell> I really wouldn't want to push any harder on encryption until we have reasonable recovery mechenisms.
 590 2012-08-09 14:21:43 <wumpus> Ferroh: it can be enabled AFAIK
 591 2012-08-09 14:21:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: why? it just keeps giving out the last key when it hits the end.
 592 2012-08-09 14:21:54 <BlueMatt> yea
 593 2012-08-09 14:22:02 <BlueMatt> it even has code there to not do that, but its not used in mining
 594 2012-08-09 14:22:07 <wumpus> Ferroh: but yeah it's a lousy default
 595 2012-08-09 14:22:16 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: but why do you think this is a problem?
 596 2012-08-09 14:22:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not the last key, the default key
 597 2012-08-09 14:22:24 <wumpus> almost as bad as not using https at all
 598 2012-08-09 14:22:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: bip30?
 599 2012-08-09 14:22:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I thought we had code to prevent duplication for reused keys.
 600 2012-08-09 14:22:52 <BlueMatt> nope
 601 2012-08-09 14:22:55 <BlueMatt> not afaict
 602 2012-08-09 14:22:59 <sipa> meh
 603 2012-08-09 14:23:11 <BlueMatt> we have a fAllowReuse, but we dont use it for CreateNewBlock
 604 2012-08-09 14:23:22 <Ferroh> wumpus I dont think you can enable it in the urllib2 module, but I could manually verify relatively easily with the SSL module
 605 2012-08-09 14:23:22 <BlueMatt> which I know fAllowReuse was added specifically to address this issue
 606 2012-08-09 14:23:28 <sipa> who uses getwork still, except miners that won't use an encrypted wallet anyway?
 607 2012-08-09 14:23:34 <sipa> *except pools
 608 2012-08-09 14:23:45 <wumpus> Ferroh: ok that's really sucky
 609 2012-08-09 14:23:49 <BlueMatt> Id assume getmemorypool does the same
 610 2012-08-09 14:24:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: huh?
 611 2012-08-09 14:24:23 <gmaxwell> All the GMP miners build their own coinbase txns.
 612 2012-08-09 14:24:29 <wumpus> Ferroh: yes, seems you need to define your own https_open... :/
 613 2012-08-09 14:24:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true... anyway well, its no huge deal, because no one uses it, true, but its still a bug, which I do find interesting because it was heavily discussed before merge
 614 2012-08-09 14:26:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in any case, on the encryption stuff— I think getting users to do good backups and setup lost key recovery are much more important now than pushing more encryption.
 615 2012-08-09 14:27:11 <gmaxwell> wumpus: (and once those things are solved they make pushing more encryption safer)
 616 2012-08-09 14:28:07 <wumpus> right, it's just that wallet.dats are so incredibly attractive to steal now, but I suppose (hope) people with a lot of coins will enable encryption anyway without needing any pushing, especially if they let others on their pc
 617 2012-08-09 14:28:55 <sipa> it's been a while since heard about wallet thefts, right?
 618 2012-08-09 14:28:57 <gmaxwell> Fortunately we haven't heard much theft noise since we introduced encryption, I'm pretty sure I've heard more loss noise.
 619 2012-08-09 14:29:14 <wumpus> well about every rootkit/malware steals them these days, it's not news anymore
 620 2012-08-09 14:29:34 <gmaxwell> I'm not talking about news, I'm talking about community discussion.
 621 2012-08-09 14:29:49 <gmaxwell> But perhaps everyone who gets robbed now just feels incompetent and doesn't comment.
 622 2012-08-09 14:29:56 <wumpus> yes just like irl
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 624 2012-08-09 14:31:20 <gmaxwell> In any case, loss is a real issue for sure— as people do disuss it.  There are two things I think we could to improve that: Have a integrated feature to print the master key and prompt users to use it, and have an integrated feature to store an escrowed copy of the master key in the wallet.
 625 2012-08-09 14:31:52 <gmaxwell> (and let the users pick their escrowing parties)
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 627 2012-08-09 14:32:32 <gmaxwell> the print stuff is more useful if it also backs up the wallet.. but thats hard without determinstic wallets.
 628 2012-08-09 14:32:55 <wumpus> yes a print option would be nice
 629 2012-08-09 14:34:22 <wumpus> though much more useful with a deterministic wallet as the code would be their wallet.. but maybe also less secure, as it suddenly requires only one component to be stolen
 630 2012-08-09 14:35:31 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it could split the master key in two and print on seperate pages.
 631 2012-08-09 14:37:51 <wumpus> yes so they could hide them in different places and would need both to recover
 632 2012-08-09 14:38:11 <wumpus> anyway, printing the current encryption master key is a good idea
 633 2012-08-09 14:38:51 <gmaxwell> It needs to make it difficult to save it to a file, otherwise doofuses will do that. (might as well leave the wallet unencrypted)
 634 2012-08-09 14:38:58 <wumpus> it's also how it works when enabling ubuntu homedir encryption, you get the master key and are suggested to print it or stash it somewhere safe another way
 635 2012-08-09 14:41:03 <wumpus> hehe well it would help against malware that steals wallet.dat but not any targeted attack
 636 2012-08-09 14:41:46 <t7> there are people still not using a brain wallet?
 637 2012-08-09 14:41:51 <t7> and writing tx by hand
 638 2012-08-09 14:42:16 <t7> signing in my head can take a little while though :(
 639 2012-08-09 14:42:54 <t7> i visualize an elliptic curve
 640 2012-08-09 14:43:13 <wumpus> well the problem with brain wallet is that a lot of people use extremely insecure passwords, and everyone in the world can have a stab at guessing/bruteforcing
 641 2012-08-09 14:43:53 <wumpus> without having to steal the wallet first
 642 2012-08-09 14:44:08 <gmaxwell> Yup. Not just that but they can attack all in parallel with one unit of effort.
 643 2012-08-09 14:44:45 <gmaxwell> And they can save their attack (even with space efficiency using a rainbow table) to fast reuse against new addresses as they show up.
 644 2012-08-09 14:45:29 <Guest47255> why not prompt for name + password?
 645 2012-08-09 14:45:41 <Guest47255> people will remember their names.
 646 2012-08-09 14:46:00 <t7> its not a secret
 647 2012-08-09 14:46:09 <Guest47255> the password is, that's enough.
 648 2012-08-09 14:46:11 <wumpus> if they had only used a slow hash function such as bcrypt, but sha256 is just too easy to bruteforce
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 650 2012-08-09 14:46:27 <gmaxwell> Guest47255: you still get speedup (names have fairly low entropy), and really it's basically impossible to get a reasonable key out of a person.
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 652 2012-08-09 14:48:30 <Guest47255> the point is to protect against the parallel attack.
 653 2012-08-09 14:48:55 <gmaxwell> Guest47255: I responded— "you still get speedup (names have fairly low entropy)"
 654 2012-08-09 14:49:03 <wumpus> memorizing a reasonable key is difficult for most people
 655 2012-08-09 14:49:05 <gmaxwell> Our wallet encryption is already protected against parallel attack.
 656 2012-08-09 14:49:25 <wumpus> yes we were talking about brainwallet
 657 2012-08-09 14:49:31 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's not especially difficult. But people can't generate one to begin with, and don't know they can't.
 658 2012-08-09 14:50:08 <t7> i dont think computer illiterate people should be using bitcoin
 659 2012-08-09 14:50:21 <t7> only because they wont realize they have malware
 660 2012-08-09 14:50:21 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well if you really spend time memorizing it's possible, but that may be too much trouble for most
 661 2012-08-09 14:50:23 <gmaxwell> ...
 662 2012-08-09 14:50:56 <gmaxwell> t7: We're not talking about "computer illiterate people".
 663 2012-08-09 14:52:14 <wumpus> how many bits of entropy would a reasonable key need?
 664 2012-08-09 14:52:36 <wumpus> 128 or so?
 665 2012-08-09 14:53:12 <gmaxwell> wumpus: 128 its generally considered the standard. You can encode that as 12 english words from a reasonably sized dictionary as the electrum recovery keys do.
 666 2012-08-09 14:53:14 <wumpus> that's 8 words from a dictionary of 65536... hmm yeah should be possible
 667 2012-08-09 14:54:13 <gmaxwell> Or 16 pgp words. (two dictionaries of size 256 selected for phonetic distinctiveness)
 668 2012-08-09 14:54:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I have several such 128 bit keys memorized. Its not a big deal. But counting on memory for an otherwise unrecoverable cryptographic key is a bad idea.
 669 2012-08-09 14:56:11 <wumpus> ideally it'd need to be randomly generated not chosen to be secure
 670 2012-08-09 14:56:17 <t7> thats like an IPv6 address
 671 2012-08-09 14:56:44 <t7> wait no
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 673 2012-08-09 14:59:09 <wumpus> Qt provides extensive cross-platform support for printing
 674 2012-08-09 14:59:10 <wumpus> cool
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 676 2012-08-09 15:01:15 <gmaxwell> wumpus: right.
 677 2012-08-09 15:07:30 <sipa> t7: yes an ipv6 address is 128 bits
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 682 2012-08-09 15:13:47 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #7: STILL FAILING in 2 hr 7 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/7/
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 691 2012-08-09 15:40:14 <weex> i was just thinking about stuff i saw in the wiki, but if wallet encryption is a best practice it's good for the default client to at least suggest that from the start
 692 2012-08-09 15:41:14 <wumpus> yes, it is, but we decided we need more recovery options first
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 695 2012-08-09 15:48:41 <gmaxwell> weex: It's a best practice if and only if it's combined with other good practices.
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 697 2012-08-09 15:49:02 <gmaxwell> (good key selection and storage)
 698 2012-08-09 15:49:42 paraipan has joined
 699 2012-08-09 15:49:59 <wumpus> one step at a time :)
 700 2012-08-09 15:50:16 <jgarzik> *yawn* is it 11:45am already?
 701 2012-08-09 15:50:29 <gmaxwell> weex: Encryption only does so much to protect you from malware and evil maids (they can install keyloggers) and it greatly increases the risk of lost coins due to mistyped/lost decryption keys. It's a good practice but only if care is taken to also protect against losing the keys.
 702 2012-08-09 15:50:34 nickrb- has joined
 703 2012-08-09 15:50:45 * jgarzik decided to write his own leveldb-like database for pynode
 704 2012-08-09 15:51:38 <t7> jgarzik: why?
 705 2012-08-09 15:51:44 <t7> for fun(tm)?
 706 2012-08-09 15:52:12 <jgarzik> because I wanna do lots of ACID, man
 707 2012-08-09 15:52:18 <gmaxwell> My priorities would probably be more along the lines of {better wallet / key backup}, {better offline wallets}, {better multisign}. The ordering of the last two is mostly just because I think the UI issues for offline wallets are easier.
 708 2012-08-09 15:53:02 nickrb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 709 2012-08-09 15:53:22 <gmaxwell> (basically we just need watch-only wallets, plus some transaction export/import UI for offline wallets)
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 711 2012-08-09 15:54:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: speaking of priorities, once 0.7 is released, I think it is time to start discussion of what "version 1.0" and "removing the BETA label" means for the Satoshi client.  As the Satoshi client is already used in production, and other lightweight-focused clients exist, it's a question whether we need to wait for some moment of perfection to call it 1.0
 712 2012-08-09 15:54:26 <wumpus> what device would you use for an offline wallet?
 713 2012-08-09 15:54:30 <jgarzik> or whether we're close already
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 715 2012-08-09 15:55:00 <wumpus> if we want to get people to use offline wallets, it'd better be something that is readily available and easy to set up
 716 2012-08-09 15:56:10 <wumpus> and is "offline" but can still communicate with the device running the bitcoin client in some way
 717 2012-08-09 15:56:13 gfinn has joined
 718 2012-08-09 15:59:50 <wumpus> if it should be able to interface with different kinds of offline wallets we'd need some kind of API
 719 2012-08-09 16:00:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Eventually it could be a very small program that runs on an old smartphone or netbook. There is a BIP specified for ascii messages for it.
 720 2012-08-09 16:00:13 <wumpus> and vendors of the offline wallet would have to interface with that
 721 2012-08-09 16:00:20 <gmaxwell> (or indeed, some kind of product)
 722 2012-08-09 16:00:56 <wumpus> yes but how would it communicate with the pc? typing the transaction codes is probably too long :-)
 723 2012-08-09 16:01:08 <wumpus> but that's the only way to be truly offline
 724 2012-08-09 16:01:18 <wumpus> or maybe something using qr codes and webcam
 725 2012-08-09 16:01:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: by writing out a text file you can carry on usb, for example.  QR codes have the problem of not working the other way.
 726 2012-08-09 16:01:53 <gmaxwell> If someone really cared I could write a modem to do it via audio.. but. meh.
 727 2012-08-09 16:02:02 <wumpus> why wouldn't they not work the other way?
 728 2012-08-09 16:02:24 <wumpus> yes it could also work though sound ofc... but that'd be pretty weird :-)
 729 2012-08-09 16:03:03 <gmaxwell> You can do offline totally manually with our software now, but it's pretty hideous for usability at this point: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt
 730 2012-08-09 16:03:09 <wumpus> qr codes could work two ways with two devices facing each other (you could even make them animated and provide a full-blown protocol :-)
 731 2012-08-09 16:03:37 <wumpus> but a text file on a usb stick, I guess that could work
 732 2012-08-09 16:03:41 <wumpus> at least it's easy
 733 2012-08-09 16:03:56 <wumpus> and manual
 734 2012-08-09 16:04:35 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0010  for the format etotheipi came up with.
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 736 2012-08-09 16:06:06 <wumpus> could be as easy as a menu option "Import transaction" which opens a file selection dialog
 737 2012-08-09 16:07:21 <gmaxwell> right... the export part has the harder UI, since you'll need to run a watch only wallet thats the same as the offline one in order to draft transactions for it.
 738 2012-08-09 16:08:43 <gmaxwell> The offline part signing part is trivial, and could be a rather small program instead of bitcoin-qt. (but we should also support it in bitcoin-qt)
 739 2012-08-09 16:08:51 <wumpus> if the device has the private keys, why would you need to export anything?
 740 2012-08-09 16:09:06 <wumpus> so it's client -> device -> client ?
 741 2012-08-09 16:09:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: The online wallet need to export the transaction you want signed.
 742 2012-08-09 16:09:25 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's not possible to write a transaction from an offline device.
 743 2012-08-09 16:09:37 <gmaxwell> You must have copies of the inputs you want to spend to write a transaction.
 744 2012-08-09 16:09:48 <wumpus> right... it would otherwise need the block chain
 745 2012-08-09 16:10:20 <gmaxwell> So the workflow should be client (write transaction) -> device (review transaction and sign) -> client (import and announce transaction)
 746 2012-08-09 16:11:22 <gmaxwell> You could alternatively shuttle copies of all the inputs over to the offline device and write the whole transaction there... but that requires a lot more code complexity and memory on the signing device, and probably isn't any better for security or usability.
 747 2012-08-09 16:11:31 <wumpus> and if the offline device generates a new private key, it also needs to export the public key to the client
 748 2012-08-09 16:12:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Right. Although I expect we'd only support these with HD wallets, so that the client doesn't have to do anything to keep up.
 749 2012-08-09 16:13:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell sipa: poke on 0.7 ACKs, pretty please with sugar on it
 750 2012-08-09 16:13:36 <wumpus> what about MITM attacks at the client side?
 751 2012-08-09 16:13:42 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: can we fix the test suite first
 752 2012-08-09 16:14:15 <wumpus> the offline device can be considered secure, it would work if it first showed the transaction to be signed before the user pushes "confirm"
 753 2012-08-09 16:14:23 <wumpus> on the device
 754 2012-08-09 16:14:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: there is a list of pull reqs posted on bitcoin-devel.  if you feel a pull req needs to be added to the 0.7 list, feel free to reply on list...
 755 2012-08-09 16:14:33 <BlueMatt> its not a pull yet
 756 2012-08-09 16:14:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: thus "review transaction", the signing device needs to say what it's paying and how much. Ultimately, I dont see any ways to solve the user being totally tricked about where the coins are going.
 757 2012-08-09 16:15:06 <jgarzik> 0.7 release planning: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=CD11CEA3-F693-48D8-9BFF-1BB4C192007B%40gmail.com&forum_name=bitcoin-development
 758 2012-08-09 16:15:22 <wumpus> true...
 759 2012-08-09 16:15:37 <sipa> jgarzik: sorry been too buse the past few days; i'll go through the list tonight or tomorrow
 760 2012-08-09 16:15:45 <sipa> *busy
 761 2012-08-09 16:15:48 <jgarzik> tnx
 762 2012-08-09 16:16:05 <wumpus> the online device could always mislead you into sending to the wrong address
 763 2012-08-09 16:16:29 <wumpus> unless you communicate addresses through another channel
 764 2012-08-09 16:17:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Right. No way around that though— e.g. even if the transaction is authored entirely offline if your online device is compromised you're hosed.
 765 2012-08-09 16:17:27 <sipa> my bank uses a standalone cardreader-like device, where you enter a challenge from the e-banking site + your PIN code, and it generates a response
 766 2012-08-09 16:17:33 <sipa> if you do a large transaction
 767 2012-08-09 16:17:40 <gmaxwell> My bigger concern was that an compromised online device not be able to trick you into spending all your bitcoins (to a fake change, or to fees).
 768 2012-08-09 16:17:44 <sipa> it asks you to enter a challenge + the amount on the device
 769 2012-08-09 16:18:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: so an attacker could only steal what you intended to spend... and hopefully you'd find out (missing payments) before spending that much.
 770 2012-08-09 16:18:36 <wumpus> yes but with your bank you probably know the bank number you're sending your money to, with bitcoin the addresses are much more random and less human readable
 771 2012-08-09 16:19:44 <gmaxwell> If you want to be ... crazy... you can seralized out a SSL session from a site giving you a bitcoin address.. and make it so the signing device can validate that blob and show you the domain name.
 772 2012-08-09 16:19:48 <wumpus> ...and change for every transaction (with best practives)
 773 2012-08-09 16:19:58 <gmaxwell> But.. oy.. a lot of ugly data.. and ways for the signing device to itself be vulnerable.
 774 2012-08-09 16:20:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, you cant
 775 2012-08-09 16:20:24 <gmaxwell> wumpus: the device knows its own keys, so it can tell you which outputs are change.
 776 2012-08-09 16:20:25 <wumpus> signed bitcoin urls could maybe help
 777 2012-08-09 16:20:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its ssl - it results in a symmetric key session, afaik all thats signed is the symmetric key
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 779 2012-08-09 16:20:40 <BlueMatt> or am I dreaming?
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 781 2012-08-09 16:20:45 <wumpus> the offline device could do validation on it.. though it'd need the vendor public key
 782 2012-08-09 16:20:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: oh duh, we had this discussion before and I think I told you that! :)
 783 2012-08-09 16:21:00 <BlueMatt> yep, quite possible
 784 2012-08-09 16:21:25 <gmaxwell> wumpus: right, you still have the cant-get-the-key problem. Doesnt really help. The reason I invoked SSL is because it does 'something' for that.
 785 2012-08-09 16:21:46 <gmaxwell> but any of these things require a lot of non-trivial parsing code.... I don't really want that crap on my private key holder. :(
 786 2012-08-09 16:21:56 <wumpus> yes the next step would be a centralized signining authority! :-)
 787 2012-08-09 16:22:13 <gmaxwell> Well, or a namecoin SPV hash tree proof for a signing key.
 788 2012-08-09 16:22:48 <wumpus> hehe, you keep plugging the usb stick 
 789 2012-08-09 16:23:04 <wumpus> first we need 3 roundtrips to authenticate, etc :-)
 790 2012-08-09 16:23:34 <wumpus> nah the simple form would be useful already
 791 2012-08-09 16:23:50 <gmaxwell> in any case, baby steps. I'm happy to get to 'can only retarget existing payments'.
 792 2012-08-09 16:23:58 <wumpus> perfect security is impossible anyway, everything we can do to make it harder to steal coins is good
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 794 2012-08-09 16:24:10 <gmaxwell> If the attacker's payoff is very limited he won't compromise the online wallet in the first place.
 795 2012-08-09 16:25:43 bonks has joined
 796 2012-08-09 16:26:18 <jgarzik> it is very disappointing that python lacks an always sorted data structure
 797 2012-08-09 16:26:32 <jgarzik> no btrees in sight anywhere
 798 2012-08-09 16:28:18 <sipa> hmm, luke's block-creation tests were merged?
 799 2012-08-09 16:28:28 <sipa> nice
 800 2012-08-09 16:31:54 <sipa> luke-jr: should fJustCheck mode have an influence on signature checking?
 801 2012-08-09 16:32:17 <sipa> (i know the current implementation doesn't, but maybe you want to avoid the skip-before-last-checkpoint rule in justcheck mode)
 802 2012-08-09 16:32:44 <luke-jr> sipa: before the checkpoints, we won't be making blocks..?
 803 2012-08-09 16:32:55 <luke-jr> oh, in the tests. maybe.
 804 2012-08-09 16:37:10 <sipa> the (nTxFees < nMinFee) test is gone in CreateNewBlock ?
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 812 2012-08-09 16:45:47 <ajmal> hello!
 813 2012-08-09 16:46:00 <ajmal> Any one there?!
 814 2012-08-09 16:46:05 <sipa> nope, sorry
 815 2012-08-09 16:46:33 <ajmal> thanks for the reply!
 816 2012-08-09 16:46:45 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 346160
 817 2012-08-09 16:46:46 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 346160 Khps, given current difficulty of 2036671.0886933 , is 0.170954237116 BTC per day and 0.00712309321315 BTC per hour.
 818 2012-08-09 16:46:58 <sipa> ;;calc 30*0.170954237116
 819 2012-08-09 16:46:58 <gribble> 5.12862711348
 820 2012-08-09 16:47:02 <ajmal> can i know whether its possible to redeem Bitcoins As Dollars ... theres a lot with me... :D
 821 2012-08-09 16:48:39 <jgarzik> ajmal: offtopic, try #bitcoin-otc
 822 2012-08-09 16:48:41 <luke-jr> I think you're in the wrong channel.
 823 2012-08-09 16:49:03 <ajmal> sorry ... thanks for that .. :)
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 825 2012-08-09 16:50:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: 1) the latest pulltester email gives a link that returns 404
 826 2012-08-09 16:50:29 <BlueMatt> which pull?
 827 2012-08-09 16:50:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: 2) it would be nice if the pulltester could tell you which gross step (pull, merge, build, test) failed.
 828 2012-08-09 16:50:59 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/691c3a9506ef801e9a98069c4d1fabac2bd748be
 829 2012-08-09 16:50:59 <luke-jr> ^ or even what the error is
 830 2012-08-09 16:51:04 nickrb has joined
 831 2012-08-09 16:52:51 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1000
 832 2012-08-09 16:52:52 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2036671.0886933 , is 0.000493859016396 BTC per day and 2.05774590165e-05 BTC per hour.
 833 2012-08-09 16:52:57 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1000000
 834 2012-08-09 16:52:57 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2036671.0886933 , is 0.493859016396 BTC per day and 0.0205774590165 BTC per hour.
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 839 2012-08-09 16:55:48 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 840 2012-08-09 16:55:49 <gribble> 193073
 841 2012-08-09 17:00:05 torsthaldo has joined
 842 2012-08-09 17:01:49 <BlueMatt> why on earth would a vps at a major provider return something like "fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly" when checking out from github???
 843 2012-08-09 17:01:59 <BlueMatt> also, why does that happen relatively often
 844 2012-08-09 17:03:38 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 845 2012-08-09 17:04:07 SnapSnap has joined
 846 2012-08-09 17:05:43 <Guest47255> that usually happens when somebody taps into your line
 847 2012-08-09 17:05:48 denisx has joined
 848 2012-08-09 17:06:37 toffoo has joined
 849 2012-08-09 17:06:38 <Guest47255> maybe you're being surveilled.
 850 2012-08-09 17:06:39 <BlueMatt> on a regular basis to acomplish nothing?
 851 2012-08-09 17:06:55 <BlueMatt> on a server that does nothing that is private or not publicly knowable?
 852 2012-08-09 17:06:58 <BlueMatt> yes, that makes sense
 853 2012-08-09 17:07:57 <SnapSnap> Guest47255: Are you suggesting that I'm under surveillance?
 854 2012-08-09 17:08:18 <BlueMatt> also, no decent surveillance would reset a connection
 855 2012-08-09 17:08:37 <BlueMatt> that would be some of the worse surveillance Ive ever heard of
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 861 2012-08-09 17:20:59 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #8: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 34 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/8/
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 865 2012-08-09 17:34:42 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: which protocol are you using? some networks block git://
 866 2012-08-09 17:35:30 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: github likes to terminate connections
 867 2012-08-09 17:35:43 <luke-jr> it's more noticable when you configure your SSH to use persistent shared connections
 868 2012-08-09 17:36:07 <luke-jr> if I don't push/pull for X minutes, I get that message
 869 2012-08-09 17:39:57 drizztbsd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 871 2012-08-09 17:42:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nope, its all https; luke-jr: so why would it only rarely happen, and unpredictably at that?
 872 2012-08-09 17:42:32 <luke-jr> no idea
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 883 2012-08-09 17:57:06 <BlueMatt> next question, why did git still return 0 when its last line started with "fatal: "???
 884 2012-08-09 18:03:00 <sipa> what changed?
 885 2012-08-09 18:03:43 <gmaxwell> I mentioned testnet and elaborated on don't ask to ask. :)
 886 2012-08-09 18:06:43 leotreasure has quit (Quit: leotreasure)
 887 2012-08-09 18:21:20 <makomk> gmaxwell: the link to the channel logs in the topic appears to have been cut off.
 888 2012-08-09 18:22:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1549#issuecomment-7622170
 889 2012-08-09 18:23:04 <BlueMatt> "Automatic sanity-testing: FAILED MERGE"
 890 2012-08-09 18:23:33 <BlueMatt> only shows either MERGE or BUILD/TEST, but its something
 891 2012-08-09 18:23:52 <gmaxwell> Hey, thats good.
 892 2012-08-09 18:28:09 zooko has joined
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 894 2012-08-09 18:34:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: speaking of that pull request... rebase that puppy so I can test it some and pull it.
 895 2012-08-09 18:35:19 <BlueMatt> yea, I believe that was next on the todo list
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 923 2012-08-09 19:17:03 <wumpus> I have the same problem, github seems to be a tad unreliable sometimes, either the remote hung up unexpectedly or it just times out
 924 2012-08-09 19:17:44 <wumpus> though it's ok now
 925 2012-08-09 19:19:20 <BlueMatt> yea, its pretty rare, but it happens from time to time, it used to always hang up jenkins on its git polling and made it sit there without getting new changes for a month
 926 2012-08-09 19:20:32 <BlueMatt> ok, pull-tester should be good, there may be one or two broken links on pulls tested earlier, if there is one someone wants bins/logs for, Ill re-run them
 927 2012-08-09 19:22:18 <BlueMatt> sorry for the mess
 928 2012-08-09 19:23:00 <BlueMatt> (If I just put a BETA at the end of each comment, would that make making a mess ok?, or is only google allowed to do that?)
 929 2012-08-09 19:24:28 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 930 2012-08-09 19:24:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: any chance it'd be easy to have a bot clean up the mess? :P
 931 2012-08-09 19:25:03 <gmaxwell> hah
 932 2012-08-09 19:26:12 <BlueMatt> hey, there we go
 933 2012-08-09 19:26:26 <BlueMatt> and Ill learn a new language to write the bot in again!
 934 2012-08-09 19:26:43 Gladamas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 935 2012-08-09 19:27:07 <gmaxwell> what language is this one written in?
 936 2012-08-09 19:27:13 <BlueMatt> python
 937 2012-08-09 19:27:39 <BlueMatt> (ok, didnt really learn it, but the only python I had done was modifying existing programs, not one from scratch
 938 2012-08-09 19:27:40 <BlueMatt> )
 939 2012-08-09 19:35:28 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 941 2012-08-09 19:43:28 <t7> python is a stain on the programming languages list
 942 2012-08-09 19:43:37 <copumpkin> lol
 943 2012-08-09 19:43:39 <t7> up there with javascript and VB
 944 2012-08-09 19:45:00 freewil has joined
 945 2012-08-09 19:45:54 <BlueMatt> I think all programming languages are a stain on the field of computer science, we should go back to punch cards and vacuum tubes!
 946 2012-08-09 19:48:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: re: 1549, go crazy
 947 2012-08-09 19:48:34 <gmaxwell> awesome.
 948 2012-08-09 19:49:12 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
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 950 2012-08-09 19:49:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: improvements look good, RE gross state reporting
 951 2012-08-09 19:53:04 <BlueMatt> great, any further suggestions, Im all ears
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 957 2012-08-09 20:04:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: for i in {1..1000} ; do ./bitcoind addnode $i.weriwowie.rew add ; done
 958 2012-08-09 20:04:20 <gmaxwell> ./bitcoind getaddednodeinfo
 959 2012-08-09 20:04:31 <gmaxwell> (has been running for about a minute now with no response)
 960 2012-08-09 20:05:13 <gmaxwell> I guess it's trying slowly to resolve the names?  When only a few bogus names are in there... they dont show up in the getaddednodeinfo output, which is a bit surprising.
 961 2012-08-09 20:05:25 Cablesaurus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 962 2012-08-09 20:05:30 <gmaxwell> I noticed the slowness with only two junk insertions, thus the crazy test.
 963 2012-08-09 20:05:57 osmosis has quit (Excess Flood)
 964 2012-08-09 20:06:28 <BlueMatt> does manual dns lookup take a while, or do you get a negative response quick?
 965 2012-08-09 20:06:53 osmosis has joined
 966 2012-08-09 20:08:56 <gmaxwell> host command returns in <.5 seconds.
 967 2012-08-09 20:09:07 <gmaxwell> Is that quick?
 968 2012-08-09 20:09:47 <BlueMatt> if you have to run it 1000 times...
 969 2012-08-09 20:09:52 <gmaxwell> In any case. if getaddednodeinfo is going to do slow resolution its going to need a noresolve or something, because when your network is being goofy is exactly when you're calling that rpc. :)
 970 2012-08-09 20:10:10 <BlueMatt> fair enough
 971 2012-08-09 20:10:44 CodesInChaos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 972 2012-08-09 20:11:43 <gmaxwell> also returning nothing when it cant resolve is probably surprising. especially weird is:
 973 2012-08-09 20:12:04 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@helmholtz src]$ ./bitcoind getaddednodeinfo
 974 2012-08-09 20:12:04 <gmaxwell> [
 975 2012-08-09 20:12:04 <gmaxwell> ]
 976 2012-08-09 20:12:04 <gmaxwell> [gmaxwell@helmholtz src]$ ./bitcoind addnode 888.weriwowie.rew add
 977 2012-08-09 20:12:07 <gmaxwell> error: {"code":-23,"message":"Error: Node already added"}
 978 2012-08-09 20:12:45 <jgarzik> frankly, I would prefer a minimal version
 979 2012-08-09 20:12:54 <jgarzik> just an 'addnode' RPC, that does a one shot connection attempt
 980 2012-08-09 20:12:56 <jgarzik> nothing more
 981 2012-08-09 20:13:11 <jgarzik> ./bitcoind addnode 888.weriwowie.rew
 982 2012-08-09 20:13:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, Im fixing that too
 983 2012-08-09 20:13:16 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: bleh. Having to restart my nodes to twiddle with their persistant connections stinks.
 984 2012-08-09 20:14:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: a) that breaks the existing naming convention with -addnode (though that can be fixed), but the point was really to addnode to the addnode list, not to add a oneshot, if anything I'd highly prefer -addnode manipulation than oneshot
 985 2012-08-09 20:15:03 <jgarzik> don't read too much into it.  I meant Do The Same As -addnode Does.
 986 2012-08-09 20:15:20 <jgarzik> getaddednodeinfo does not seem necessary
 987 2012-08-09 20:16:49 <gmaxwell> It would be redundant with peerinfo if getpeerinfo showed peers which were configured but down.
 988 2012-08-09 20:17:28 rickbauss has left ()
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 991 2012-08-09 20:22:53 <osmosis> does a wallet.dat have a version marker in it anywhere?
 992 2012-08-09 20:23:58 <BlueMatt> yes
 993 2012-08-09 20:24:16 <jgarzik> getpeerinfo is certainly open for modification
 994 2012-08-09 20:24:27 <jgarzik> it's new in 0.7, so even less compat concerns than usual
 995 2012-08-09 20:24:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thoughts on basically merging getaddednodeinfo into getpeerinfo? e.g. making getpeer info also show not-up added nodes?
 996 2012-08-09 20:25:51 <BlueMatt> alright with me, though it does make getting a addedName -> list of ips (and connected flag) harder
 997 2012-08-09 20:25:57 <BlueMatt> not sure how useful that is though
 998 2012-08-09 20:27:12 <BlueMatt> (and would be possible)
 999 2012-08-09 20:28:33 bitllc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1000 2012-08-09 20:29:25 <BlueMatt> re: nolookup option: not sure about that, it kinda breaks the whole logic - you cant get the list of nodes connected, all you could get is the list of nodes added
1001 2012-08-09 20:29:56 <BlueMatt> could add origdnsname field to CNode, but that class kinda has enough fields already...
1002 2012-08-09 20:31:14 rdponticelli has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1003 2012-08-09 20:31:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well thats an argument for keeping them seperate ... and just making getaddednodeinfo just return exactly the addnodes for management and not tell you if they're connected.
1004 2012-08-09 20:32:53 rdponticelli has joined
1005 2012-08-09 20:33:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Id say thats an argument for keeping them separate and making getaddednodeinfo return the name->address mappings as it does now (otherwise you could never get a reliable name->connected mapping
1006 2012-08-09 20:34:13 <BlueMatt> (would have to do it with a local dns lookup...)
1007 2012-08-09 20:35:30 <BlueMatt> adding a nolookup option to getaddednodeinfo would be a bit better imho, as it would still be useful, whereas its function in getpeerinfo would be a bit unclear
1008 2012-08-09 20:35:41 <gmaxwell> Even thats not entirely reliable.. e.g. what happens if a.com resolves to 1.2.3.4  but then later resolves to 1.2.3.5 and you getaddednodeinfo? You'll see a.com is down.
1009 2012-08-09 20:36:18 <BlueMatt> yep, and the addnode thread will reconnect to 1.2.3.5
1010 2012-08-09 20:36:31 <BlueMatt> in, what is it, like 5 minutes?
1011 2012-08-09 20:36:57 <gmaxwell> oh, I think we just identified a minor vulnerability.
1012 2012-08-09 20:37:14 JStoker has quit (Excess Flood)
1013 2012-08-09 20:37:27 <BlueMatt> I would actually argue that behavior makes the most sense, what if Im a long-running node who connects to a.bitcoin-backbone.com, and that server moves?
1014 2012-08-09 20:37:30 <gmaxwell> e.g. I create node.evil.com  and get people to addnode it. Then I rotate through addresses, and eventually you'll have all your connections filled by me.
1015 2012-08-09 20:37:36 <BlueMatt> in terms of dns-hijacking, well...meh
1016 2012-08-09 20:37:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: right, well, the old ones should go down at the same time.
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1019 2012-08-09 20:39:26 <BlueMatt> best way to fix that, instead, should be node-rotation of outgoing nodes
1020 2012-08-09 20:39:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: but addnode connections are supposted to be pinned, not something you should rotate.
1021 2012-08-09 20:39:57 <BlueMatt> (we do over-ride the maxconnections if we have < outgoing connections, right?)
1022 2012-08-09 20:40:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, and a rotate thread would have to do addnode lookups to find which nodes are *currently* part of an addnode
1023 2012-08-09 20:41:04 <BlueMatt> I would argue that fix is much cleaner
1024 2012-08-09 20:41:16 <gmaxwell> or.. we could just make the peer state record which addnode things are apart of and never connect to the same addnode twice.
1025 2012-08-09 20:41:19 <BlueMatt> (otherwise we get yet another field in CNode...)
1026 2012-08-09 20:41:37 * jgarzik wonders how many threads we have doing periodic maintenance
1027 2012-08-09 20:41:48 <BlueMatt> not too many (yet)
1028 2012-08-09 20:41:48 <jgarzik> add a timer facility, and those threads all go away
1029 2012-08-09 20:41:57 <BlueMatt> yep, that should be done
1030 2012-08-09 20:42:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, I think rotating with dns rotations is a really nice feature
1031 2012-08-09 20:43:26 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1032 2012-08-09 20:43:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what I said wasn't exclusive with that. E.g. if you get a hit on the same group, and its not the same result you kill the first.
1033 2012-08-09 20:43:44 <jgarzik> will it be a widely used feature?  For most we want to discourage -connect and -addnode
1034 2012-08-09 20:44:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the purpose of -addnode, in my mind, was always to enable a bitcoin backbone
1035 2012-08-09 20:44:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm? I consider judicious addnode usage a best practice for high value sites.
1036 2012-08-09 20:44:49 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1037 2012-08-09 20:45:04 <jgarzik> few in number, hence "for most"
1038 2012-08-09 20:45:29 <gmaxwell> In any case, we're on a tangent there I think.
1039 2012-08-09 20:45:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: in my mind, a bitcoin backbone would also be used by p2pool miners, which is an important use-case to support
1040 2012-08-09 20:46:10 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1041 2012-08-09 20:46:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, thats one solution, but I just dont think its worth it when peer rotation would/should replace it, is cleaner, and would be a bit better for addnode use-cases imho
1042 2012-08-09 20:46:47 <gmaxwell> The current behavior of "if I addnode sipa's seed I'll eventually end up with a MAX_CONNECTIONS outbound" is just busted, but thats not relevant for your rpc.
1043 2012-08-09 20:47:00 slush1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1044 2012-08-09 20:47:02 <BlueMatt> absolutely I agree
1045 2012-08-09 20:48:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: fwiw, because of the possiblity of freezing up the daemon for many seconds at a time, p2pool would be unable to call getpeerinfo in any case as it si.
1046 2012-08-09 20:48:29 <BlueMatt> you mean getaddednodeinfo?
1047 2012-08-09 20:48:39 <gmaxwell> er yes. sorry.
1048 2012-08-09 20:48:43 <gmaxwell> multitasking.
1049 2012-08-09 20:48:46 <BlueMatt> also, doesnt it not freeze bitcoind anymore since we have thread-per-connection?
1050 2012-08-09 20:49:07 <BlueMatt> (getaddednodeinfo very deliberately goes out of its way to not hold locks during dns lookup)
1051 2012-08-09 20:49:23 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: getinfo is blocked on it.
1052 2012-08-09 20:49:33 <gmaxwell> Well, perhaps! but it fails!
1053 2012-08-09 20:49:55 <BlueMatt> odd...that shouldnt happen
1054 2012-08-09 20:50:05 <BlueMatt> maybe its not locked on the dns...
1055 2012-08-09 20:51:22 agricocb has joined
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1058 2012-08-09 20:53:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: next time you play with ultraprune, checkout out how many 1e-8 outputs there are.
1059 2012-08-09 20:54:04 tower has joined
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1061 2012-08-09 20:54:17 DashhSleeps is now known as RainbowDashh
1062 2012-08-09 20:54:18 <gmaxwell> I was looking at the txout set... and it looks like it's a significant fraction of all outputs. :(
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1067 2012-08-09 21:01:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nope, its all in dns, so all we need is rpc lock push-down or similar and it shouldn't block anything
1068 2012-08-09 21:01:19 d4ve2 has joined
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1070 2012-08-09 21:02:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: pushed a new version
1071 2012-08-09 21:02:13 yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1080 2012-08-09 21:11:26 <rofer> Is this the place to ask questions about the MTGox API?
1081 2012-08-09 21:13:57 <BlueMatt> go to #mtgox
1082 2012-08-09 21:13:58 <gmaxwell> rofer: #mtgox is almost certantly better.
1083 2012-08-09 21:16:25 unknown45682 has joined
1084 2012-08-09 21:17:43 <rofer> ah, thanks
1085 2012-08-09 21:21:00 topace has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1087 2012-08-09 21:22:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: okay, my case now returns nothing quite fast.
1088 2012-08-09 21:23:27 <BlueMatt> huh?
1089 2012-08-09 21:23:40 denisx has joined
1090 2012-08-09 21:23:46 <gmaxwell> oh, dur. wrong daemon.
1091 2012-08-09 21:24:02 Motest003 has joined
1092 2012-08-09 21:24:36 <gmaxwell> so... did you figure out the cause of the blocking?
1093 2012-08-09 21:24:45 <BlueMatt> it was dns
1094 2012-08-09 21:25:36 <gmaxwell> okay .. for i in {1..1000} ; do ./bitcoind addnode $i.weriwowie.rew remove ; done  (after doing the matching add)  is taking forever, I assume looking up the nodes to knock them off, and is also blocking getinfo.
1095 2012-08-09 21:26:01 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1096 2012-08-09 21:26:34 <BlueMatt> (remember all rpcs block until rpc lock push-down is done)
1097 2012-08-09 21:27:49 <gmaxwell> sorry, I have that merged on some test nodes here but not this one.
1098 2012-08-09 21:27:55 <BlueMatt> instant for me?
1099 2012-08-09 21:28:01 Motest003 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1100 2012-08-09 21:28:10 <gmaxwell> whats instant?
1101 2012-08-09 21:28:14 <BlueMatt> remove
1102 2012-08-09 21:28:32 <gmaxwell> are you removing 1000 unresolvable names that were added before?
1103 2012-08-09 21:28:42 <BlueMatt> yea, exact same command
1104 2012-08-09 21:29:11 <gmaxwell> hmm.. been runing minutes now.
1105 2012-08-09 21:29:44 <BlueMatt> its faster than the add here
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1107 2012-08-09 21:29:51 <BlueMatt> maybe ~1/2 the time
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1110 2012-08-09 21:33:49 <gmaxwell> it did eventually finish
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1112 2012-08-09 21:34:34 <gmaxwell> hm. cool. So I can make my DNS resolve to you... then remove me removes you.
1113 2012-08-09 21:35:04 <BlueMatt> ?
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1115 2012-08-09 21:36:16 <gmaxwell> e.g. you addnode evil.com ... evil.com resolves to goodpeer.com's IP.  When someone removes evil.com, it kills the connection to goodpeer.
1116 2012-08-09 21:36:30 <gmaxwell> not really that big a deal, but a bit surprising.
1117 2012-08-09 21:36:37 <BlueMatt> removing an addnode doesnt remove any connections
1118 2012-08-09 21:40:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: then why does remove resolve??
1119 2012-08-09 21:40:42 <BlueMatt> there is no call to lookup in addnode at all?
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1140 2012-08-09 22:29:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: shouldn't be hard to test
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