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15 2012-08-13 00:59:13 <luke-jr> comments on https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/6ad494d2083ad1c4f4c5593128daa0f9d30d40f9 plz
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79 2012-08-13 04:54:07 <luke-jr> sigh
80 2012-08-13 04:54:21 <luke-jr> I think fastblockrelay won't make 0.7
81 2012-08-13 04:54:42 <luke-jr> looks like making it actually work will require a rewrite of the networking code
82 2012-08-13 04:54:50 <luke-jr> or significant refactor, anyhow
83 2012-08-13 04:56:22 <luke-jr> I suppose making a thread per p2p connection isn't acceptable? :x
84 2012-08-13 05:00:40 <amiller> who here mentioned kademlia before, has anyone made a custom-DHT for bitcoin
85 2012-08-13 05:00:52 <amiller> the simplest functionality would be you query for a block by hash, it gives you the block data
86 2012-08-13 05:01:36 <amiller> this would be the ideal way to 'bittorrent' the blockchain to yourself, and it would also be a useful component for building the various merkle tree things on the docket
87 2012-08-13 05:03:43 <amiller> i'm sure that there are people seeding the blockchain data using bittorrent, but that's not what i mean, since you might not know which chunk corresponded to a particular block - what's important to me is that you're able to download just a particular block, or blocks in any order you want
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89 2012-08-13 05:06:40 <amiller> if anyone here is working on such a p2p library / tool / network, i'm going to give you a big donation.
90 2012-08-13 05:07:07 <amiller> i wouldn't be surprised if someone ends up making something like that as part of the supporting infrastructure for a mining pool
91 2012-08-13 05:10:08 <nanotube> amiller: there are existing kademlia libraries...
92 2012-08-13 05:10:28 <amiller> someone would basically have to organize some bootstrap information, right?
93 2012-08-13 05:10:30 <amiller> it's probably not very hard to use
94 2012-08-13 05:10:41 <amiller> i bet it's comparable to launching sks servers
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96 2012-08-13 05:17:00 <amiller> one (or several) community DHT networks would be a critically useful part of the bitcoin ecosystem, this is one of the things that is naturally scalable and requires zero-trust (since it's just query-by-hash)
97 2012-08-13 05:18:58 <amiller> i suppose it duplicates some of the functionality of the bitcoin gossip network, but it would do so in a generalizable way, possibly it would be faster and easier to extend
98 2012-08-13 05:19:47 <amiller> i can imagine it would start small, but it's something light clients might be able to benefit from joining
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100 2012-08-13 05:20:31 <amiller> the main technical difference between kademlia and the bitcoin gossip layer (i think) is "routing", your requests travel in several hops
101 2012-08-13 05:20:57 <amiller> nodes with less storage than a full-node could still be useful here
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103 2012-08-13 05:28:23 <luke-jr> sipa: did you get to look at gmp_bip?
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135 2012-08-13 07:32:59 <luke-jr> FWIW, next (not next-test) builds up at http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoind/next/20120813/
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153 2012-08-13 08:33:24 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #10: STILL FAILING in 2 hr 6 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/10/
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232 2012-08-13 10:52:02 <Diablo-D3> bleh
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239 2012-08-13 11:21:41 <denisx> Diablo-D3: why you are not supporting the midstate mining-extension?
240 2012-08-13 11:22:04 kiceek has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
241 2012-08-13 11:23:47 <Diablo-D3> denisx: because no one sent me a patch for it.
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245 2012-08-13 11:29:26 <kish> hi i get this
246 2012-08-13 11:29:39 <kish> ************************
247 2012-08-13 11:29:39 <kish> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
248 2012-08-13 11:29:39 <kish> Db::open: Invalid argument
249 2012-08-13 11:29:39 <kish> bitcoin in AppInit()
250 2012-08-13 11:29:39 <kish> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'DbException' what(): Db::open: Invalid argument
251 2012-08-13 11:29:49 <kish> and bitcoind exits
252 2012-08-13 11:29:54 <kish> how do i fix that?
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254 2012-08-13 11:33:13 <Diablo-D3> sounds like one of your dbs are corrupt
255 2012-08-13 11:33:16 <Diablo-D3> but ask sipa or gmaxwell
256 2012-08-13 11:34:06 <kish> ;(
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286 2012-08-13 13:40:11 <jgarzik> hah!
287 2012-08-13 13:40:26 <jgarzik> justmoon reinvents my suggestion (list services)!
288 2012-08-13 13:40:43 <BlueMatt> I was thinking that when I read it
289 2012-08-13 13:41:10 <BlueMatt> did we merge the list methods thing?
290 2012-08-13 13:41:14 <jgarzik> no
291 2012-08-13 13:41:24 <BlueMatt> ah
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293 2012-08-13 13:56:20 <gmaxwell> "Meh"
294 2012-08-13 13:59:02 <gmaxwell> amiller: I think a comment of yours solved a concern I've had for a while: As the subsidy goes down the cost of some attacks (e.g. short forks, finney attacks) goes down. If blocks were required to have at least 50 BTC in the coinbase, even once the subsidy was 25. It would mean that attempted blocks would have to pony up enough transaction fees (potentially provided by the miner)... fees that would be taken if the block was orphaned. Interes
295 2012-08-13 13:59:22 <gmaxwell> amiller: too bad it's too far out (and also has an economic tuning parameter :( ) to actually implement in bitcoin.
296 2012-08-13 14:01:21 <BlueMatt> TD/others interested in bloom filters: I reimplemented the matching stuff, you can see the new algorithm at https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/blob/bloom/src/bloom.cpp#L116 comments?
297 2012-08-13 14:06:39 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: good stuff
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309 2012-08-13 14:22:30 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: Monday poke about 0.7 release ACKs
310 2012-08-13 14:22:51 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: Maybe we should just release git HEAD at 0.7rc1? ACK energy seems low.
311 2012-08-13 14:23:18 <jgarzik> It has been 2 weeks since "0.7 release planning" was posted.
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314 2012-08-13 14:31:01 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I went through an bumped 0.7 flags onto things I thought would still make it in, Luke has built bitcoin next with all those things. I feel like most of the things which haven't been pulled yet have minor issues, or at least a good potential of them.
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316 2012-08-13 14:31:18 <jgarzik> ok
317 2012-08-13 14:32:13 <gmaxwell> In my mind addnoderpc is blocked by your dislike for the info API. (I can't say I love it either; but I think I'd rather have it than not, and we could rip and replace later)
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322 2012-08-13 14:33:25 <gmaxwell> I wanted to see Pieter's opinion on getblocktemplate, I _think_ luke addressed all the concerns and the code looked okay to me but sipa had a number of useful opinions last time.
323 2012-08-13 14:34:01 <gmaxwell> In any case, this is the useful tracking page: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?milestone=5&state=open
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327 2012-08-13 14:35:10 <TD> BlueMatt: cool! looking good
328 2012-08-13 14:35:17 <TD> BlueMatt: typo in name of IsTransactionRelvantToContainedHash
329 2012-08-13 14:35:29 <TD> shouldn't BloomFilterContains just be an overload of ::contains() ?
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332 2012-08-13 14:36:19 <TD> BlueMatt: also what's with the last check? going from inputs to connected outputs and checking that too?
333 2012-08-13 14:36:26 <BlueMatt> TD: heh, good catch; in terms of overload...yea, making that a separate function was because it was late and I wanted to go to sleep...
334 2012-08-13 14:36:41 <TD> ok
335 2012-08-13 14:36:56 TD_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
336 2012-08-13 14:37:10 <TD> btw i think to force inlining the method has to be static, or declared as part of the class definition
337 2012-08-13 14:37:52 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, because relayers (should) always be verifying txes, they will have the prevouts, I think it makes sense to also check the prevout scriptsPubKeys as well
338 2012-08-13 14:38:14 <TD> isn't it redundant with the first set of checks?
339 2012-08-13 14:38:19 <BlueMatt> TD: otherwise you get into some nastyness trying to make sure you keep your filter up-to-date and dont miss a tx in a block between changing the filter and pushing it
340 2012-08-13 14:38:55 <BlueMatt> for a regular pay-to-pubkey, you can only match the output being spent (for this-tx-spent-one-of-mine)
341 2012-08-13 14:39:20 <TD> ah yes
342 2012-08-13 14:39:29 <TD> might want to explain this in the comments
343 2012-08-13 14:39:34 <BlueMatt> will do
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368 2012-08-13 15:42:38 <sipa> jgarzik: how much discussion has there been about the mempool P2P command?
369 2012-08-13 15:46:31 osxorgate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
370 2012-08-13 15:48:42 ASukharev3318 is now known as asuk
371 2012-08-13 15:50:23 <jgarzik> sipa: not much more than what you have seen. It arose out of a basic SPV client sketch on IRC from TD
372 2012-08-13 15:50:39 <jgarzik> sipa: secondary uses are diagnostic and miners (slurp current x's)
373 2012-08-13 15:50:42 <jgarzik> *tx's
374 2012-08-13 15:50:51 <sipa> sure, i'm in favor of it
375 2012-08-13 15:51:04 <sipa> i just don't feel confortable with unilaterally adding a command and changing the protocol version number anymore :)
376 2012-08-13 15:51:42 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
377 2012-08-13 15:52:23 user_ has joined
378 2012-08-13 15:52:45 <user_> tes
379 2012-08-13 15:53:14 <jgarzik> sipa: one minor protocol note... part of this bit is changing 'getdata' behavior, so I think this particular change does need a "blessed by satoshi client" stamp early-on. 'getdata' behavior is rather specific, so I think we need to be the leaders here.
380 2012-08-13 15:53:57 <jgarzik> sipa: so in general I agree with you, but I think this ordering is reasonably appropriate given what is changing (specific historical getdata behaviors in the satoshi client)
381 2012-08-13 15:54:51 <jgarzik> sipa: I myself raised the point in IRC, though, that this may be usefully advertised with a NODE_SPV bit in nServices... but we wanted to wait on NODE_SPV until more features were available (bloom filters) to advertise.
382 2012-08-13 15:55:03 <jgarzik> so, a slight protover bump, itis
383 2012-08-13 15:55:21 <sipa> sure, i'm all for it
384 2012-08-13 15:55:32 <jgarzik> (alternative versioning suggestions still welcome, of course)
385 2012-08-13 15:55:47 <sipa> i think a version bump, an extra command, and the slight semantics change for getdata are the right approach imho
386 2012-08-13 15:56:13 <sipa> but i'd just mail the dev list at least once about it specifically, including the suggestion to change the protocol version for it, and ask for comments
387 2012-08-13 15:56:50 <jgarzik> I thought I already did. I will do so, if not...
388 2012-08-13 15:57:03 <sipa> i only found a mail about some upcoming changes for SPV clients
389 2012-08-13 15:57:07 <sipa> which mentioned it
390 2012-08-13 15:57:25 <user_> Hi, why I don't see logs of day 13 here: www.bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/08
391 2012-08-13 15:57:34 pecket has joined
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394 2012-08-13 15:58:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: what would the purpose of a NODE_SPV be?
395 2012-08-13 15:58:14 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
396 2012-08-13 15:58:32 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: advertise support for mempool + filter commands
397 2012-08-13 15:58:49 <BlueMatt> ah NODE_SUPPORT_SPV
398 2012-08-13 15:58:57 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yeah. I could imagine some nodes might not support filter*
399 2012-08-13 15:59:02 <BlueMatt> fair enough
400 2012-08-13 15:59:15 <jgarzik> anyway, bike time
401 2012-08-13 16:02:19 <BlueMatt> user_: ask cdecker
402 2012-08-13 16:02:22 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
403 2012-08-13 16:02:24 <BlueMatt> (who is very rarely online)
404 2012-08-13 16:03:25 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
405 2012-08-13 16:03:45 <Jezzz> how does one find the generation IP of a block?
406 2012-08-13 16:03:59 <Jezzz> don't see it in getblock(blockhash)
407 2012-08-13 16:04:08 <luke-jr> there is none
408 2012-08-13 16:04:24 roconnor_ has joined
409 2012-08-13 16:04:27 <BlueMatt> you attempt to peer with as many nodes as possible and assume the first node you got it from is the generator, but its a very bad assumption and is, more often than not, wrong
410 2012-08-13 16:05:41 <Jezzz> how do the various websites that report block stats do it?
411 2012-08-13 16:05:48 <Jezzz> they seem to be markedly accurate
412 2012-08-13 16:05:48 <BlueMatt> what I just said
413 2012-08-13 16:05:55 <Jezzz> k
414 2012-08-13 16:05:58 <BlueMatt> they really arent
415 2012-08-13 16:06:38 <BlueMatt> blockchain.info does a decent job identifying pools because they have spent time researching specific ips for those pools, but for other blocks, they really dont do a good job
416 2012-08-13 16:06:51 <luke-jr> jgarzik: pretty much anything that implies changes to interoperability of clients, really needs a BIP imo
417 2012-08-13 16:07:06 danbri has joined
418 2012-08-13 16:07:07 <Jezzz> thanks BlueMatt
419 2012-08-13 16:07:33 <luke-jr> otoh, it is currently-uncharted stuff, so *shrug*
420 2012-08-13 16:07:50 <sipa> well, technically i'd say the mempool P2P command and corresponding getdata change also needs a BIP, but I somehow hope that people can "just agree" that it's a good idea when suggested :)
421 2012-08-13 16:08:14 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, I don't see any reason for argument over it, but it's still better if it gets documented :p
422 2012-08-13 16:08:34 <BlueMatt> since when have we documented anything? ;P
423 2012-08-13 16:08:52 * luke-jr tries. :p
424 2012-08-13 16:09:01 <sipa> well, i don't think there have been protocol changes since some time without BIPs
425 2012-08-13 16:11:01 <Ferroh> listsinceblock() doesnt show transactions with 0 confirms does it?
426 2012-08-13 16:11:51 <sipa> about #1526... there is already some part of it merged?
427 2012-08-13 16:12:07 <sipa> i saw some code testing for block versions and warning if more than 50% upgraded
428 2012-08-13 16:12:41 <jgarzik> sipa: yes, that's in
429 2012-08-13 16:12:50 <jgarzik> sipa: just the height-in-coinbase needs pulling
430 2012-08-13 16:13:19 <jgarzik> tx-version and block-version testing and upgrade code is in
431 2012-08-13 16:13:39 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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434 2012-08-13 16:16:17 <sipa> luke-jr: in BIP22, why is coinbaseaux an Object and not an Array?
435 2012-08-13 16:16:46 <luke-jr> sipa: for unique identifiers on bits of data, such as merged mining
436 2012-08-13 16:18:10 <sipa> hmm, ok
437 2012-08-13 16:18:10 t7 has joined
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439 2012-08-13 16:19:30 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: do the coinbase arguments force the data to be pushed onto the script and not added as-is?
440 2012-08-13 16:19:48 <BlueMatt> and, if not, can you do that?
441 2012-08-13 16:20:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that is outside the scope of BIP22 IMO
442 2012-08-13 16:20:16 iocor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
443 2012-08-13 16:20:21 <sipa> well BIP22 does specify coinbase data which must be included
444 2012-08-13 16:20:27 <sipa> seems reasonable to specify how
445 2012-08-13 16:21:33 <sipa> is several encodings for the coinbase still necessary?
446 2012-08-13 16:21:41 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I dont mind not requiring it, but I would kinda like to see a note that "not pushing could result in the creation of invalid blocks with too many sigops, if you dont count sigops in your coinbase" in the docs
447 2012-08-13 16:21:42 <luke-jr> I see that as more of a block rule; so long as coinbase scriptSig isn't serialized in blocks, I don't know why it should require that?
448 2012-08-13 16:21:46 <luke-jr> sipa: ?
449 2012-08-13 16:22:10 <sipa> BIP22 specifies coinbasetxn whose format is given by a "tx:cb" parameter
450 2012-08-13 16:22:15 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that makes sense; do you want me to add it?
451 2012-08-13 16:22:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats why I asked ;)
452 2012-08-13 16:22:47 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: well, as opposed to you adding it :p
453 2012-08-13 16:22:52 <BlueMatt> well, ok...
454 2012-08-13 16:22:57 <luke-jr> sipa: that needs fixing, it was moved
455 2012-08-13 16:23:17 <luke-jr> actually, it was removed*
456 2012-08-13 16:23:24 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: Ill let you add it, I cant say Im particularly familiar with every part of bip22
457 2012-08-13 16:25:37 <sipa> luke-jr: one very minor nitpick: for "depends" in BIP22, you say other transactions that must also be present in the block; i assume that implies being present in the block, before this transaction
458 2012-08-13 16:26:05 <luke-jr> sipa: I can clarify that, sure.
459 2012-08-13 16:26:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: "It is advisable to encode values inside "PUSH" opcodes, so as to not inadvertantly expend SIGOPs." ?
460 2012-08-13 16:27:22 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: + "(which are counted in coinbases, despite the scripts not being executed)"
461 2012-08-13 16:27:35 <BlueMatt> or just which are counted in coinbases
462 2012-08-13 16:28:55 <luke-jr> ok, all updates made
463 2012-08-13 16:29:16 <BlueMatt> thanks
464 2012-08-13 16:31:11 sgornick has joined
465 2012-08-13 16:38:52 <luke-jr> hmm, I wonder where those two /Satoshi:0.6.0.9/Eligius:12/ are
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479 2012-08-13 16:55:24 <grondilu> My bitcoin client is currently synchronising and it's pretty slow :( I notice that it never connects to more than 8 nodes, why is that?
480 2012-08-13 16:55:48 <helo> your router probably doesn't support upnp
481 2012-08-13 16:55:53 <helo> or it isn't enabled
482 2012-08-13 16:56:35 <grondilu> oh, I'll look at it.
483 2012-08-13 16:56:37 <helo> if upnp is enabled, you should get a lot more than 8... although the network may not be the bottleneck.
484 2012-08-13 16:57:15 weather is now known as BeTep
485 2012-08-13 16:58:23 <grondilu> hum yet it seems that Upnp *is* activated :/
486 2012-08-13 16:59:02 guruvan_ is now known as guruvan-
487 2012-08-13 16:59:32 <luke-jr> sipa: so.. good to merge now? :P
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489 2012-08-13 17:01:07 <gmaxwell> grondilu: connecting to more nodes wont make it faste.r
490 2012-08-13 17:01:10 <BlueMatt> grondilu: more than 8 nodes will not speed up the download (though enabling upnp and getting more nodes allows you to contribute in a positive way to the network)
491 2012-08-13 17:01:23 <gmaxwell> helo: also, a new node won't get any inbound until its synchronized.
492 2012-08-13 17:01:35 <helo> ahhh, didn't know that
493 2012-08-13 17:01:41 DashhSleeps has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
494 2012-08-13 17:01:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: since when?
495 2012-08-13 17:01:54 bitllc has joined
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497 2012-08-13 17:02:16 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Since we stopped doing the inital announcement unles it is caught up to at least the highest checkpoint and only if its listening.
498 2012-08-13 17:02:48 <BlueMatt> oh, I forgot about that...sorry
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502 2012-08-13 17:04:10 <grondilu> gmaxwell: BlueMatt: ok, noticed.
503 2012-08-13 17:04:10 guruvan_ has joined
504 2012-08-13 17:06:59 <luke-jr> haha, looks like adding grey=abandoned to my next/next-test post helps a little
505 2012-08-13 17:07:10 <luke-jr> "Coin control is abandoned? Just for the next version or for good?"
506 2012-08-13 17:08:36 <sipa> luke-jr: why is coinbasetxn not specified as mutation in bip_gmp?
507 2012-08-13 17:08:59 <BlueMatt> heh, re: you can tweak transactions to make a new, valid copy, with a different hash, maybe we should fix that...yea, there are about 100 ways to do that
508 2012-08-13 17:11:12 <BlueMatt> (esp with p2sh
509 2012-08-13 17:11:12 <BlueMatt> )
510 2012-08-13 17:11:23 <luke-jr> sipa: you mean "coinbase"? it's implied if "coinbasetxn" is omitted from the template
511 2012-08-13 17:12:01 <luke-jr> sipa: and bitcoind would need to forego the caching to supply a unique "coinbasetxn"
512 2012-08-13 17:12:04 <sipa> BIP22 only mentions longpoll, coinbasetxn, coinbasevalue, proposal, serverlist, workid
513 2012-08-13 17:12:28 <luke-jr> sipa: those are capabilities, indicated by the client
514 2012-08-13 17:12:34 <sipa> oh, right
515 2012-08-13 17:13:16 <luke-jr> I don't think bitcoind needs to care about those
516 2012-08-13 17:13:33 gavinandresen has joined
517 2012-08-13 17:13:39 <luke-jr> maybe if someone comes along and wants to ask for coinbasetxn
518 2012-08-13 17:13:42 gavinandresen is now known as gavininacar
519 2012-08-13 17:14:32 <sipa> luke-jr: coinbasetxn can still be both a string or an object?
520 2012-08-13 17:14:46 <luke-jr> sipa: ? it's always an object
521 2012-08-13 17:15:02 <sipa> the type column says String or Object
522 2012-08-13 17:15:40 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
523 2012-08-13 17:18:03 <luke-jr> fixed
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537 2012-08-13 17:36:20 <gavininacar> Who runs bitcoinstats.com ? Do they know that the IRC logs are stuck?
538 2012-08-13 17:37:14 <gmaxwell> gavininacar: I just emailed them a few minutes ago.
539 2012-08-13 17:37:25 <gavininacar> spiffy
540 2012-08-13 17:37:59 <gavininacar> I was worried y'all were secrely plotting mutiny while I was on vacation
541 2012-08-13 17:37:59 <sipa> gavininacar, gmaxwell, jgarzik: are we fine with the backward-incompatible change that #1409 brings? ("from" : "generation" istead of "category" : "generation") ?
542 2012-08-13 17:38:09 <sipa> i don't mind, but maybe some users will complain
543 2012-08-13 17:38:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm fine with them. The risk isn't complaints, it's people not upgrading when they otherwise could.
544 2012-08-13 17:39:06 <gmaxwell> There isn't that much in 0.7 network wise that I really feel that people need to urgently deploy.
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548 2012-08-13 17:39:50 <sipa> if they are relying on watching coinbases, they are probably a mining pool, and i suppose they review the changes anyway
549 2012-08-13 17:41:22 toffoo has joined
550 2012-08-13 17:42:55 <gavininacar> ... so generation is { "category" : "receive", "from" : "generation" } and non-generation is { "category" : "receive" } ?
551 2012-08-13 17:43:15 <luke-jr> right
552 2012-08-13 17:43:31 <luke-jr> alternative suggestions welcome of course
553 2012-08-13 17:43:38 <gavininacar> I don't like "from" as a key, i think it'll be confusing. Maybe { "category" : "receive", "generated" : true/false }
554 2012-08-13 17:43:52 <luke-jr> sounds good to me
555 2012-08-13 17:44:02 <sipa> fine by me
556 2012-08-13 17:44:48 BCBot has joined
557 2012-08-13 17:44:51 <luke-jr> gavininacar: to clarify: can "generated" be omitted, or do we need to specify false for every normal tx?
558 2012-08-13 17:45:07 <sipa> i'd omit it for non-generation
559 2012-08-13 17:45:12 <user_> hi, this transaction will be uncorfirmed forever?: www.blockchain.info/address/13AFvadrSnsAzSXTSguFRCJB6j5nzcAQ7i
560 2012-08-13 17:45:23 <luke-jr> user_: unlikely
561 2012-08-13 17:46:11 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: before answering look at its ancestors.
562 2012-08-13 17:46:27 <luke-jr> ah
563 2012-08-13 17:46:38 <luke-jr> odd, blockchain.info used to warn if there was even a chance of double spend
564 2012-08-13 17:47:06 <luke-jr> wait, nm
565 2012-08-13 17:47:10 da2ce7 has joined
566 2012-08-13 17:47:11 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what about its ancestors?
567 2012-08-13 17:47:31 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yea, I can't make sense of this. It looks like a double spend? but perhaps the UI is just confusing.
568 2012-08-13 17:47:56 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I think the unconfirmed txn is the spend
569 2012-08-13 17:48:36 <gmaxwell> In any case, its a member of a really long unconfirmed chain.
570 2012-08-13 17:48:45 <luke-jr> yeah
571 2012-08-13 17:48:52 jurov is now known as away!xzbnxup@84.245.71.31|jurov
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573 2012-08-13 17:49:21 <gmaxwell> someone @!#!@ doesn't know how to use sendmany.
574 2012-08-13 17:49:26 <luke-jr> user_: whoever sent this to you seems to be a spammer
575 2012-08-13 17:49:52 <user_> was coinbase.com
576 2012-08-13 17:50:01 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: way way back, there is a real double spend
577 2012-08-13 17:50:07 <luke-jr> user_: no, it will never confirm
578 2012-08-13 17:50:13 <luke-jr> the alternate chain has 101 confirms now
579 2012-08-13 17:50:22 <luke-jr> so yours is basically -101
580 2012-08-13 17:50:30 <user_> they sent me 0.1 to register and confirm account
581 2012-08-13 17:50:41 <gmaxwell> There unconfirmed stub is 45 transactions long.
582 2012-08-13 17:50:48 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: ah.
583 2012-08-13 17:51:38 <user_> i tried withdraw the 0.1 and never confirm
584 2012-08-13 17:51:45 <gmaxwell> man. really need negative confirmation support, this was a PITA to figure out. Would have been much easier if user_ said "my client says -101 confirmations!"
585 2012-08-13 17:52:38 <user_> yes, but i'm not using any client
586 2012-08-13 17:52:43 <luke-jr> sounds like maybe someone is exploiting coinbase.com, and coinbase.com is a spammer :P
587 2012-08-13 17:52:55 <user_> the key was genersted from bitaddress
588 2012-08-13 17:53:06 rdponticelli has joined
589 2012-08-13 17:53:15 <user_> maybe
590 2012-08-13 17:53:39 <gmaxwell> This is the losing doublespend: http://www.blockchain.info/tx-index/15496811/5340cb0f203d6ee57e96742e01af7991fc625f33429b5e17542a58004df5a567
591 2012-08-13 17:53:45 <gmaxwell> it was a real pain to find on blockchain.info.
592 2012-08-13 17:53:59 <freewil> luke-jr, does #1409 allow the client to receive sent coinbase txs for example from eligius?
593 2012-08-13 17:54:03 <copumpkin> isn't coinbase that ycombinator-backed company that was on the news recently?
594 2012-08-13 17:54:15 <sipa> copumpkin: it is
595 2012-08-13 17:54:21 <copumpkin> okay
596 2012-08-13 17:54:23 <luke-jr> gavininacar: sipa: listtx_generate_fold updated to use "generated":true
597 2012-08-13 17:54:34 <luke-jr> freewil: pretty much, yes
598 2012-08-13 17:55:27 <grondilu> !facts
599 2012-08-13 17:55:28 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
600 2012-08-13 17:55:54 grondilu has left ()
601 2012-08-13 17:55:54 <freewil> luke-jr, nice +1
602 2012-08-13 17:56:03 kiceek has quit (Quit: home)
603 2012-08-13 17:56:10 <sipa> gavininacar: i wonder if we should base the 75%/95% decision not just on nVersion==2, but on (nVersion==2 && has_height_in_coinbase), excluding people who think they are doing it right, but have a incorrect implementation (which seems to exist?)
604 2012-08-13 17:56:31 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: btw, in case you missed it: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=100390
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609 2012-08-13 17:58:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh that sounds prudent to me.
610 2012-08-13 17:58:52 <sipa> maybe an incorrect nVersion==2 block can even count negatively, as it is evidence of people who will be hurt by the switchover
611 2012-08-13 17:59:04 <gavininacar> sipa: that makes the counting code more complicated... is it worth it to make things easier for incorrect implementations?
612 2012-08-13 17:59:57 <gavininacar> Right now the counting code doesn't have to fetch any transactions, which is a nice property.
613 2012-08-13 18:00:21 <sipa> hmm, also true
614 2012-08-13 18:00:36 <luke-jr> could always flag in the block index whether it was correct
615 2012-08-13 18:01:03 <sipa> i'm only suggesting it because there seem to be people with incorrect implementations?
616 2012-08-13 18:01:48 <luke-jr> would be nice to just find out who/what it is :/
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621 2012-08-13 18:07:47 <sipa> luke-jr: why "processing" after 2 confirmations (my intuition says 1)
622 2012-08-13 18:08:56 <luke-jr> sipa: 1 could easily be an ordinary orphan race
623 2012-08-13 18:09:08 <luke-jr> if orphans are 2 deep, chances are both chains contain your txn at least
624 2012-08-13 18:09:25 <luke-jr> (real reason: I stole the rules from Spesmilo)
625 2012-08-13 18:09:30 Zarutian has joined
626 2012-08-13 18:10:22 <sipa> right, but says "validating" at 1 is strange; if it has a confirmation (even with some chance of reversal), it is certainly valid
627 2012-08-13 18:10:53 <sipa> (i'm nitpicking because the ">=2 confirmations" point was never special before)
628 2012-08-13 18:13:13 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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633 2012-08-13 18:15:00 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't have any strong feelings toward those tiers; if a change is wanted, just say how :p
634 2012-08-13 18:16:30 <luke-jr> the only reason it's part of this pullreq is so there is a type-independent way to tell the status of a transaction regardless of whether it's a normal one or generated
635 2012-08-13 18:18:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: could that also be a way to have depth independant safty intelligence? E.g. not showing txn as fully confirmed at 6 deep if you've wittnessed a double spend?
636 2012-08-13 18:19:00 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: possibly, though that is definitely outside the scope of that pullreq lol
637 2012-08-13 18:19:05 <gmaxwell> sure.
638 2012-08-13 18:20:21 gavininacar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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641 2012-08-13 18:21:20 <gmaxwell> oh! blockexplorer is on testnet3!
642 2012-08-13 18:22:03 <gmaxwell> it thinks all the coinbases are strange?
643 2012-08-13 18:22:09 <gmaxwell> I guess its confused by compressed public keys?
644 2012-08-13 18:23:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: can you setup a version of your difficulty charts on testnet?
645 2012-08-13 18:26:51 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
646 2012-08-13 18:27:25 <gmaxwell> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/000000007dacb5d4d071404703e73839b0f47fc82f912d75fab7933bf5306735 < look at the last transaction. Someone's using FLOAT.
647 2012-08-13 18:28:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: a fee of 100k tnBTC?
648 2012-08-13 18:28:16 <sipa> looks quite deliberate to me
649 2012-08-13 18:28:29 Diablo-D3 has joined
650 2012-08-13 18:28:32 <gmaxwell> Oh, actually it really was 100000.99999999. I don't remember that.
651 2012-08-13 18:28:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yea, the transaction is mine, but I thought it was an even 100k.
652 2012-08-13 18:29:29 <gmaxwell> (I did that so if someone wanted to do a TN3-IN-A-BOX they could fork the chain there and mine that block to have a supply of a lot of coins without a lot of mining)
653 2012-08-13 18:30:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, i'll set up a testnet version (someday...)
654 2012-08-13 18:30:59 <gmaxwell> No worries, I'll periodically nag. ;)
655 2012-08-13 18:31:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: by the way, it seems that I2P actually has 256-bit addresses and not 80-bit ones
656 2012-08-13 18:31:56 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
657 2012-08-13 18:31:57 <sipa> the garlicat thing needs some resolver service still
658 2012-08-13 18:32:30 Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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662 2012-08-13 18:33:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: which makes me want to propose a protocol change, to accomodate other network addresses explicitly
663 2012-08-13 18:33:50 <sipa> because with I2P and CJDNS and whatnot, there's no clean way to map everything into IPv6
664 2012-08-13 18:34:15 jarpiain_ has joined
665 2012-08-13 18:34:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: If we were to do that, I wonder if we should also make it distribute authentication public keys.
666 2012-08-13 18:34:49 <luke-jr> *gasp* IPv6 doesn't have enough address space? :p
667 2012-08-13 18:35:05 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: not for I2P. I2P addresses are like a billion bits.
668 2012-08-13 18:35:19 <luke-jr> why don't Tor and I2P have multicast capabilities? -.-
669 2012-08-13 18:35:19 <gmaxwell> well, 512.. same as a billion.
670 2012-08-13 18:35:32 <sipa> no, 256, not 512 (afaik)
671 2012-08-13 18:35:55 TD has joined
672 2012-08-13 18:36:02 <sipa> and CJDNS has 120-bit addresses basically
673 2012-08-13 18:36:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: you want to do host authentication?
674 2012-08-13 18:37:09 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
675 2012-08-13 18:37:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: right now a local network MITM can invisibly isolate you even if you have a good set of peer addresses, so I think I do. I dont think I'd want to do much with them.
676 2012-08-13 18:38:12 QbY has joined
677 2012-08-13 18:38:18 <sipa> right, just some initial challenge-response in the handshake perhaps
678 2012-08-13 18:39:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: really what it should be is a ECDH exchange authenticated by an ID key, which then adds a negoiated secret to the 'checksum'.
679 2012-08-13 18:39:13 <sipa> oh yes!
680 2012-08-13 18:39:31 <gmaxwell> (this is one of the reasons I like our 'checksum' even though everyone else hates it. :) )
681 2012-08-13 18:40:18 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
682 2012-08-13 18:40:43 <sipa> and you could specify trusted peers with their "host address", and be safe from MitM
683 2012-08-13 18:40:56 <gmaxwell> Then your peer count can be, "x peers, y authenticated, z trusted" and default to not showing any transactions confirmed unless you have Q authenticated peers. (or, if the users specfies R trusted peers)
684 2012-08-13 18:41:06 <gmaxwell> Exactly.
685 2012-08-13 18:42:34 BCBot has joined
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687 2012-08-13 18:43:12 Diablo-D3 has joined
688 2012-08-13 18:44:25 <sipa> you'd probably want a separate host key per network you're connected to
689 2012-08-13 18:45:06 <sipa> luke-jr: not a NAK, but i'd prefer processing from 1 confirmation on
690 2012-08-13 18:45:47 sirk390 has joined
691 2012-08-13 18:45:53 <luke-jr> sipa: I don't really care. If you're saying "change it to 1 and I'll merge it now", I'll do it now :p
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702 2012-08-13 18:53:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yeah, I poked theymos the other day, and he said he would update blockexplorer to testnet3 in the (then) next day or two
703 2012-08-13 18:53:17 <jgarzik> so, kudos theymos
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707 2012-08-13 19:01:13 <sipa> hmm, maybe 0x06/0x07 pubkeys non-IsStandard is not that trivial, as you need to check the sigScript's pushes
708 2012-08-13 19:07:57 <gavininacar> sipa: yes, non-trivial... also non-trivial is making transactions that put extra junk on the stack non-standard, and I want to do that, too.
709 2012-08-13 19:08:45 <luke-jr> gavininacar: I thought you already did?
710 2012-08-13 19:08:55 <gavininacar> ... and make non-DER-encoded signatures and scripts that use PUSHDATA4 when they don't need to...
711 2012-08-13 19:09:17 <gavininacar> luke-jr: might have, I tend to have a bad memory for what I've already done did.
712 2012-08-13 19:09:42 <sipa> the number of arguments is already checked
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714 2012-08-13 19:09:58 <sipa> sigScripts that push more than necessary are considered non-standard
715 2012-08-13 19:10:11 D34TH has joined
716 2012-08-13 19:12:08 <BlueMatt> gavininacar: PUSHDATA4 is easy - just make anything that uses PUSHDATA4 or PUSHDATA2 non-standard
717 2012-08-13 19:12:34 <BlueMatt> eh...no PUSHDATA2 is ok
718 2012-08-13 19:12:43 <sipa> for?
719 2012-08-13 19:12:51 IveBeenBit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
720 2012-08-13 19:12:57 <BlueMatt> use in general, if you use PUSHDATA4 you did something wrong
721 2012-08-13 19:13:04 <BlueMatt> (you cant push more than 520 bytes)
722 2012-08-13 19:14:02 <sipa> but for the currently-valid standard scripts, no push can ever be more than 72 bytes, right?
723 2012-08-13 19:14:15 <BlueMatt> well, that too
724 2012-08-13 19:14:28 <BlueMatt> gavininacar: note that all those things only close some of the ways to make tx change hash but stay valid
725 2012-08-13 19:14:51 <gavininacar> Closing some of them is better than changing none of them.
726 2012-08-13 19:15:02 <gavininacar> The general principle is to remove degrees of freedom when possible
727 2012-08-13 19:15:02 <BlueMatt> fair enough
728 2012-08-13 19:15:12 <BlueMatt> also consider blocking putting extra bytes in a sig at pos n - 2
729 2012-08-13 19:15:30 <sipa> n-2 ?
730 2012-08-13 19:15:40 <BlueMatt> length - 2, sorry
731 2012-08-13 19:15:59 <gavininacar> You mean the extra OP_CHECKMULTISIG bug workaround push?
732 2012-08-13 19:15:59 MiningBuddy- has joined
733 2012-08-13 19:16:11 <BlueMatt> no, I mean modifying the actual signature push
734 2012-08-13 19:16:27 <sipa> between the DER-encoded signature and the sigtype byte, right?
735 2012-08-13 19:16:27 <BlueMatt> you can throw any bytes you want at position length - 2 (or duplicate the last byte as many times as you want)
736 2012-08-13 19:16:30 <BlueMatt> yea
737 2012-08-13 19:16:48 <sipa> yeah that'd fall under checking the signature format
738 2012-08-13 19:16:51 <BlueMatt> oh, and you can change the sigtype byte to anything other than a valid value if its SIGHASH_ALL
739 2012-08-13 19:16:53 <gavininacar> Got it. Yes, ack
740 2012-08-13 19:17:00 <BlueMatt> oh, was that mentioned? sorry
741 2012-08-13 19:17:20 <sipa> gavin mentioned checking the DER encoding; this is an extension of that
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744 2012-08-13 19:19:27 <BlueMatt> that said, is it really worth it? its not a straightforward process - it adds the possibility of way more corner cases, and probably for nothing - the ability to change the hash of a tx will quite possibly persist
745 2012-08-13 19:20:58 <sipa> what other ways to change the tx without influencing the sighash do you know?
746 2012-08-13 19:21:16 <sipa> apart from using a weak sighash type
747 2012-08-13 19:21:50 <BlueMatt> Id have to look again, Im not sure if I saw any others
748 2012-08-13 19:24:41 <BlueMatt> plus, you dont change too much, making it non-standard blocks one of your peers who is particularly well-connected, but it doesnt block miners doing crap
749 2012-08-13 19:24:57 <BlueMatt> so wallets still have to (decently) gracefully handle such cases
750 2012-08-13 19:25:16 <BlueMatt> and, correct me if Im wrong, you wont see the change unless its in a block anyway
751 2012-08-13 19:25:33 <BlueMatt> so a peer cant just flood you with 1000 copies of a tx
752 2012-08-13 19:26:33 <sipa> right, but nonstandard can be a first step towards invalid
753 2012-08-13 19:26:55 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #11: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 50 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/11/
754 2012-08-13 19:27:16 <BlueMatt> that just further complicates the protocol...now we have even more special-case txn which are valid because they happened before N
755 2012-08-13 19:27:26 gavininacar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
756 2012-08-13 19:27:40 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
757 2012-08-13 19:27:45 <BlueMatt> (we already have a few of the cases mentioned earlier)
758 2012-08-13 19:27:48 <gmaxwell> 0_o
759 2012-08-13 19:27:49 <gmaxwell> test/util_tests.cpp(106): error in "util_DateTimeStrFormat": check DateTimeStrFormat("%x %H:%M:%S", 0) == "01/01/70 00:00:00" failed [01/01/1970 00:00:00 != 01/01/70 00:00:00]
760 2012-08-13 19:28:06 <sipa> yah, that test should be removed
761 2012-08-13 19:28:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: not really, because you can write an implementation which just doesn't validate txn below some checkpointed point with the now invalid crap.
762 2012-08-13 19:29:54 AlexWaters has joined
763 2012-08-13 19:30:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, you can do that, but verifying new implementations and people who do want to verify the chain have to special-case each one or have to spend time looking into what this particular tx isnt valid by the new rules
764 2012-08-13 19:31:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that, and I just really am not a big fan of making particular script types invalid for little gain
765 2012-08-13 19:32:10 <BlueMatt> (I dont see having to handle a duplicate of one of your txn in wallets as a big issue)
766 2012-08-13 19:35:40 BlueMatt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
767 2012-08-13 19:36:05 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: things like limiting the encodings of signatures are important. Right now people can potentally create network forks based just on the functionality in underlying cryptographic libraries.
768 2012-08-13 19:40:15 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
769 2012-08-13 19:40:21 <jgarzik> heh, simple leveldb clone in python, 2100 LoC
770 2012-08-13 19:40:49 <jgarzik> let's see if it improves pynode's performance...
771 2012-08-13 19:40:59 MC-Eeepc has joined
772 2012-08-13 19:43:13 <gmaxwell> thats a fairly large amount of python code! :)
773 2012-08-13 19:47:55 <TD> jgarzik: there's a python binding to c++ leveldb, btw
774 2012-08-13 19:49:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: mmap'd transactional key/value databases will be such :) and that's not even with the checkpointing code in another thread...
775 2012-08-13 19:49:33 <jgarzik> TD: yeah, but it is not as much fun as writing my own ;p
776 2012-08-13 19:50:31 <TD> i'm disappointed how many news outlets are claiming bitcoinica was a currency exchange
777 2012-08-13 19:50:39 <TD> journalists never cease to amaze me with their lazyness
778 2012-08-13 19:52:15 <helo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoinica begins "Was an exchange..."
779 2012-08-13 19:53:07 OneEyed has joined
780 2012-08-13 19:53:18 <gmaxwell> helo: Not anymore.
781 2012-08-13 19:53:26 <helo> :D
782 2012-08-13 19:54:09 <jgarzik> heh
783 2012-08-13 19:54:28 <jgarzik> once pagedb is stable in python, it will get translated to C
784 2012-08-13 19:55:10 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
785 2012-08-13 19:55:30 MC-Eeepc has joined
786 2012-08-13 19:56:23 <sipa> New features in Linux 3.8: - In-kernel key-value store implementation
787 2012-08-13 19:56:56 xtor_ has joined
788 2012-08-13 19:57:52 <gmaxwell> TuxTablesâ¢
789 2012-08-13 19:58:08 <copumpkin> lol
790 2012-08-13 19:58:30 <sipa> actually, we already have several
791 2012-08-13 19:58:48 <sipa> ext3, reiserfs, btrfs, ...
792 2012-08-13 19:59:20 <copumpkin> omg
793 2012-08-13 20:01:04 extor has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
794 2012-08-13 20:01:10 <luke-jr> sipa: when do we get gitfs? :/
795 2012-08-13 20:01:29 <sipa> ha!
796 2012-08-13 20:02:09 * luke-jr actually has a "gitfs" implemented with inotify
797 2012-08-13 20:08:09 DashhSleeps has joined
798 2012-08-13 20:08:35 <copumpkin> there's a gitfs on fuse
799 2012-08-13 20:08:40 <copumpkin> I haven't used it though
800 2012-08-13 20:09:26 DashhSleeps is now known as RainbowDashh
801 2012-08-13 20:10:02 <user_> newbie questions: on future i'll be able to generate/restore a private key from for example an email address plus a password?
802 2012-08-13 20:10:20 <sipa> do you want that?
803 2012-08-13 20:10:22 <user_> or two email address
804 2012-08-13 20:10:26 Gladamas has quit (Quit: Got to go, or client issues.)
805 2012-08-13 20:10:27 <user_> yes
806 2012-08-13 20:10:44 <sipa> do you want anyone who knows your e-mail address, and can try a few billion passwords to get access to your wallet?
807 2012-08-13 20:10:45 <user_> i think is a simple way to memorize
808 2012-08-13 20:11:03 <user_> email address plus a password
809 2012-08-13 20:11:06 <copumpkin> why would it have two components?
810 2012-08-13 20:11:12 <copumpkin> not just a pass phrase that generates a key?
811 2012-08-13 20:11:19 <copumpkin> which you can stick anything you want into
812 2012-08-13 20:11:37 <sipa> user_: there are tools like electrum and armory with determinstic wallet, where the wallet is derived from a seed
813 2012-08-13 20:11:43 <sipa> and this seed can be printed to paper
814 2012-08-13 20:11:49 <sipa> or written down
815 2012-08-13 20:12:04 <user_> i heard people saying insecure passwords can be discovered
816 2012-08-13 20:12:06 <sipa> but to make sure it's hard enough to guess, they don't allow you to make up your own
817 2012-08-13 20:12:28 <user_> but the seed is hard to memorize
818 2012-08-13 20:12:29 <gmaxwell> Passwords are strongly inadvisable; people just have a real hard time at producing acceptably secure ones (when anyone in the world can attack) and much of the advice given is poor.
819 2012-08-13 20:13:09 <gmaxwell> user_: then don't memorize it, if you don't want to. The normal threat model today for most people is entirely remote attackers. Write it down, in multiple parts if you like.
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821 2012-08-13 20:13:15 <user_> two email address is easy to attack?
822 2012-08-13 20:13:17 <gmaxwell> (though its not that hard to memorize an electrum seed)
823 2012-08-13 20:13:29 <copumpkin> just generate a random key and devise a mnemonic to remember it
824 2012-08-13 20:13:35 <copumpkin> if you insist on remembering
825 2012-08-13 20:13:47 <user_> hehe
826 2012-08-13 20:13:53 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: thats basically what electrum does. Gives you a 128 bit value encoded as 12 english words.
827 2012-08-13 20:13:56 <user_> still hard
828 2012-08-13 20:13:58 <jgarzik> :)
829 2012-08-13 20:14:11 <copumpkin> it's safer that way than the other way
830 2012-08-13 20:14:36 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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832 2012-08-13 20:15:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: did you see http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seedgen/test.html by the way?
833 2012-08-13 20:16:04 MC-Eeepc has joined
834 2012-08-13 20:16:22 <user_> so on future you think clients will not give option to generate a private key by some words or password choosem by users
835 2012-08-13 20:16:24 <user_> ?
836 2012-08-13 20:17:04 <sipa> i wouldn't write such a client
837 2012-08-13 20:17:28 <user_> ok
838 2012-08-13 20:17:55 <Joric> isn't ec multiplication enough? it's 1000 times slower than sha256 itself
839 2012-08-13 20:18:10 <user_> what about a program that scan eye plus a password
840 2012-08-13 20:18:12 <user_> ?
841 2012-08-13 20:18:19 <sipa> so your question is: is 1000 sha256 iterations enough?
842 2012-08-13 20:18:20 <user_> dreaming?
843 2012-08-13 20:18:31 <gmaxwell> Joric: 1000x slowdown is really nothing.
844 2012-08-13 20:20:57 <gmaxwell> 100000x slowdown is a sane starting point. (and thats still deeply subsecond with fast code)
845 2012-08-13 20:21:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, INSANITY SPEED
846 2012-08-13 20:23:56 <copumpkin> pbkdf2 -> key
847 2012-08-13 20:24:09 <Joric> i just tried bruteforcing got only 400 keys a second using native openssl (guess it's already sse2 optimized)
848 2012-08-13 20:24:15 <copumpkin> still not particularly advisable
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851 2012-08-13 20:26:18 <sipa> Joric: i'm sure that there are FPGA's around that could do close to a million per second
852 2012-08-13 20:26:35 <sipa> or at least 100k/sec
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856 2012-08-13 20:28:08 <TD> user_: it's possible
857 2012-08-13 20:28:59 <user_> TD: good to know
858 2012-08-13 20:30:56 <user_> I was thinking: If all my transactions need multisign, I think i could generate a a key with a simple password and the other with an email address
859 2012-08-13 20:31:26 <user_> someone could take access to one
860 2012-08-13 20:31:41 <gmaxwell> Thats a pretty terrible idea. :(
861 2012-08-13 20:31:41 <user_> but how he will know the other?
862 2012-08-13 20:31:50 <user_> hum
863 2012-08-13 20:31:52 <sipa> that's not better than generating one set of passphrases from both
864 2012-08-13 20:31:55 <copumpkin> how do you ensure that all your transactions are multisign?
865 2012-08-13 20:32:08 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: by using a p2sh address.
866 2012-08-13 20:32:08 <sipa> copumpkin: by only giving out multisig addresses
867 2012-08-13 20:32:09 extor has joined
868 2012-08-13 20:32:22 <gmaxwell> People just have a really poor mental model for how attackers work.
869 2012-08-13 20:32:30 <user_> hehe
870 2012-08-13 20:32:41 gavininacar has joined
871 2012-08-13 20:32:50 <user_> just a newbie making questions
872 2012-08-13 20:32:51 <sipa> that's not particularly funny, imho :)
873 2012-08-13 20:33:09 <user_> sorry
874 2012-08-13 20:33:23 <copumpkin> took me a moment to parse gavininacar
875 2012-08-13 20:33:26 <gmaxwell> user_: what attackers will do is feed millions of likely passwords and known-bitcoin-user email addresses to a key generator, then save all the keys and constantly watch for hits against their database.
876 2012-08-13 20:33:30 <Joric> i remember leaked mtgox hashes got cracked less than in a couple of days :-O
877 2012-08-13 20:33:49 <sipa> Joric: yes, and that was iterated SHA512, no?
878 2012-08-13 20:34:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: cryptmd5 is iterated md5.
879 2012-08-13 20:34:12 <Joric> i don't really remember, some of them were md5
880 2012-08-13 20:34:39 <gmaxwell> (and freebsd crypt is a perfectly reasonable oldschool kdf)
881 2012-08-13 20:34:43 <sipa> right; they changed the algorithm at some point, but people who hadn't changed passwords in a while were still in md5
882 2012-08-13 20:35:05 <gmaxwell> Most of the accounts (80%?) were the new cryptmd5.
883 2012-08-13 20:35:33 xtor_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
884 2012-08-13 20:36:11 <gmaxwell> Ironically the howling "omg md5 is insecure" had MagicalTux replacing it with non-iterated sha512 + constant "secret" "salt", but fortunately he mentioned what he was doing and he was promptly cluesticked.
885 2012-08-13 20:36:36 <copumpkin> lol
886 2012-08-13 20:36:45 <copumpkin> I tried to fight it!
887 2012-08-13 20:36:55 <copumpkin> all over reddit people were saying "omg md5" and I cluesticked them
888 2012-08-13 20:37:11 gavininacar is now known as gavin_in_a_car
889 2012-08-13 20:37:15 <copumpkin> gavin_in_a_car: aha!
890 2012-08-13 20:37:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's impossible simple equalities like MD5==omginsecure are just too sticky.
891 2012-08-13 20:38:03 <gavin_in_a_car> Before my next vacation I need to figure out why LastPass/webirc don't agree on what my IRC username/password is
892 2012-08-13 20:38:29 cdecker has joined
893 2012-08-13 20:38:33 <sipa> gavin_in_a_car: i hope you're not driving right now?
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895 2012-08-13 20:38:57 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: not many crypto algo allow using an external HSM
896 2012-08-13 20:39:30 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: I'm surprised that I haven't seen someone using yubikey in challenge response HMAC mode as a password security measure.
897 2012-08-13 20:39:43 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: because it's too much trouble on client side to setup
898 2012-08-13 20:39:50 <gavin_in_a_car> sipa: no, borrowed TD's self-driving car.
899 2012-08-13 20:39:52 <gavin_in_a_car> (kidding!)
900 2012-08-13 20:39:57 <gmaxwell> I don't mean for clients. I mean for password auth on servers.
901 2012-08-13 20:40:12 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: ?
902 2012-08-13 20:41:05 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: could you elaborate what your thoughts are ?
903 2012-08-13 20:41:40 <sipa> MagicalTux: user sends new password, you give it as challenge to yubikey on your server, and store the response
904 2012-08-13 20:41:49 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: e.g. load hmac secrets offline into yubikeys; plug yubikeys into authentication servers. User provides password. You compute SHA256(salt||password) and pass the value to yubikey. Yubikey does HMAC and returns a response. compare to database.
905 2012-08-13 20:42:06 <MagicalTux> sipa: I guess the YubiHSM does that, except it's more suited for the job
906 2012-08-13 20:42:12 <gmaxwell> Now if someone cracks the system and copies the database.. they can't even attempt to crack passwords. They could only sniff them.
907 2012-08-13 20:42:22 <gmaxwell> And yes, yubihsm can do it too.. but even a plain yubikey can do this.
908 2012-08-13 20:42:46 <MagicalTux> YubiHSM is better in a way because unlike yubikey you don't get to know the actual keys used
909 2012-08-13 20:42:48 <gmaxwell> (or they could stay on the cracked server and use your own yubikey in a cracking attempt; but thats not terribly fast... :) )
910 2012-08-13 20:42:55 <MagicalTux> and if server is physically accessed, the memory is wiped
911 2012-08-13 20:43:00 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: hard to make backups of it that way.
912 2012-08-13 20:43:21 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: the yubikey hmac key can't be extracted by the server.
913 2012-08-13 20:43:33 <MagicalTux> actually it's easy, during the setup part you choose the initial seed/etc, we just do that in a fully offline env and store the secrets encrypted offline
914 2012-08-13 20:43:49 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: someone stealing the server or rebooting the server in rescue mode will be able to use the yubikey
915 2012-08-13 20:44:04 <jgarzik> <justmoon> I'm implementing a DHT, rather than storing the whole blockchain index locally
916 2012-08-13 20:44:05 <jgarzik> DHT!
917 2012-08-13 20:44:09 <gmaxwell> right, you can do that with a regular yubikey. Offline you load hmac keys. Then you cant .. oh right, sure it's still insecure if someone steals the server.! :)
918 2012-08-13 20:44:15 <jgarzik> you're not P2P without a DHT
919 2012-08-13 20:44:16 <MagicalTux> with the yubihsm if the server hosting provider gets hacked and someone reboots the server in rescue mode, they don't have access to that anymore
920 2012-08-13 20:44:37 <MagicalTux> server rebooted in rescue mode is something that happened before (linode hack)
921 2012-08-13 20:44:48 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: okay, fair enough. (I would normally consider server theft to be overkill for password auth security!)
922 2012-08-13 20:45:14 <MagicalTux> plus, the yubihsm has a little more throughtput than a yubikey
923 2012-08-13 20:45:19 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: the only think an attacker with free access to the yubikey could do is a regular (very slow) brute force attack)
924 2012-08-13 20:45:27 <gmaxwell> just a little. :)
925 2012-08-13 20:45:34 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: or dictionary attack, for a start
926 2012-08-13 20:45:56 <gmaxwell> dictionary == bruteforce (it's just more smartly ordered :) )
927 2012-08-13 20:46:06 <gmaxwell> MagicalTux: have you had anyone look into moving your bitcoin signing into an HSM?
928 2012-08-13 20:46:18 <MagicalTux> gmaxwell: it's mostly done already
929 2012-08-13 20:46:23 <gmaxwell> Good.
930 2012-08-13 20:46:33 <MagicalTux> since we have our own bitcoin client, it's easy
931 2012-08-13 20:46:45 <gmaxwell> It's not hard to do in the reference client anymore.
932 2012-08-13 20:46:53 <MagicalTux> :þ
933 2012-08-13 20:47:25 <sipa> i suppose it's never hard in "your own" client
934 2012-08-13 20:47:28 <gmaxwell> The only thing we don't do right now is have an easy way to load addresses without the private keys so that the normal wallet stuff works with remote keys.
935 2012-08-13 20:49:22 <MagicalTux> :)
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940 2012-08-13 20:56:48 <TD> hey MagicalTux
941 2012-08-13 20:57:02 <TD> are you planning on issuing personal identity certificates at some point, a bit like your trusted vendor program?
942 2012-08-13 20:57:19 <TD> seeing as you're doing the AML stuff anyway a signed cert from mtgox.com that contains name/location/photo might be useful for many things
943 2012-08-13 20:59:03 <gmaxwell> That thats a neat idea.
944 2012-08-13 20:59:25 <TD> you could potentially charge a (small!) fee
945 2012-08-13 20:59:42 <TD> or just use it as an incentive to verify :) reduce the complaining a bit
946 2012-08-13 20:59:46 <gmaxwell> Also makes the AML procedure more attractive: I get something out of it.
947 2012-08-13 20:59:52 <gmaxwell> Yup.
948 2012-08-13 21:00:07 <upb> haha, and who is going to accept a GoxID
949 2012-08-13 21:00:27 <gmaxwell> upb: Compared to?
950 2012-08-13 21:00:59 <gmaxwell> upb: if the alternative is nothing, or some random OTC pgp key that anyone can trivially create... whatever its lossyness a GOX id sounds like a big improvement.
951 2012-08-13 21:01:21 <TD> yeah, basically anything where you want to raise the cost for repeat abuse, or make in-person trades more trustable or whatever
952 2012-08-13 21:01:24 <TD> there's all kinds of uses for it
953 2012-08-13 21:01:50 <TD> if you can't reduce trust needed to zero with technical means, believing you could find someone and take them to court ,can help make some transactions possible
954 2012-08-13 21:02:29 <gmaxwell> Might also be interesting if blinded ones were available. E.g. an MTGOX ID number which mtgox promises they only issue one per AMLed identity, and which they will disclose their docs on with a police report, but which doesnt otherwise include your info.
955 2012-08-13 21:03:17 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
956 2012-08-13 21:03:27 <TD> well, or just a regular PGP key that's signed by mtgox, in that case
957 2012-08-13 21:03:29 tower has joined
958 2012-08-13 21:03:34 <TD> if you're gonna issue blinded ID numbers might as well make them keys
959 2012-08-13 21:04:00 <TD> though a cert directly containing ID details like name/photo/residence-city would be useful too, if the format was standardized
960 2012-08-13 21:04:08 <TD> (i have no idea if there is such a standardized format
961 2012-08-13 21:04:26 <TD> (creating a custom one for bitcoin would be easy though - make it a protobuf :)
962 2012-08-13 21:04:37 <gmaxwell> x509 dude.
963 2012-08-13 21:04:55 <TD> yes, i know, but does that support the features i just outlined?
964 2012-08-13 21:04:56 gavin_in_a_car has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
965 2012-08-13 21:05:08 <gmaxwell> TD: well it would be nice (probably not worth implementing) if it were possible for me to get mtgox tokens which proved to a counterparty that e.g. ID 12345 was in the US. But which didn't prove it to anyone else.
966 2012-08-13 21:05:08 <TD> afaik it only supports some very archaic type attributes. i don't know if you can embed a photo into one
967 2012-08-13 21:05:34 <gmaxwell> TD: you can embed images in x509, but I don't think that makes sense for mtgox. They don't check your face. :)
968 2012-08-13 21:06:00 <TD> well, they try to spot fake ID scans. of course i have no idea how well they do that. i'd say if you submit a salute photo at the same time they could do that
969 2012-08-13 21:06:11 <TD> gmaxwell: there is a type of signature that is verifiable only by the intended recipient, by the way
970 2012-08-13 21:06:16 <TD> i never thought of a use for it
971 2012-08-13 21:06:17 <gmaxwell> I know.
972 2012-08-13 21:06:21 <TD> but, could be handy, i guess
973 2012-08-13 21:06:24 <gmaxwell> I just gave you one. :)
974 2012-08-13 21:06:29 <TD> right
975 2012-08-13 21:06:56 <gmaxwell> E.g. I wany to trade with you. I don't want you to know anything about me (you might steal my ID). You only want to trade if I'm in the US. I ask MTGOX to make a token to disclose that only to you. You get the token and are convinced but can't convince anyone else.
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977 2012-08-13 21:07:04 <TD> MagicalTux seems to either not be paying attention or be AFK
978 2012-08-13 21:07:29 <TD> gmaxwell: well that's tough because you can always disclose whatever magic numbers you are using to be "yourself" for the purposes of that interaction
979 2012-08-13 21:07:32 <gmaxwell> There are a bunch of ways to do that. You can ECDH negoiate a key, sign the negoiation, and symmetrically encrypt the token.
980 2012-08-13 21:07:35 <TD> i wonder if you could do an interactive ZKP
981 2012-08-13 21:07:52 <gmaxwell> The way I described allows the recipent to rebind the data at will.
982 2012-08-13 21:08:04 <gmaxwell> (thats basically how OTR's authentication works)
983 2012-08-13 21:08:46 <gmaxwell> (the reciepent of the token knows the remote party is mtgox because of the auth.. but they can replace the symmetrically encrypted part freely, so they can't convince anyone else)
984 2012-08-13 21:09:10 <TD> ah, i see
985 2012-08-13 21:09:44 <gmaxwell> (this is also why we can't use logs of HTTPS pages for non-reputable contract evidence. :( )
986 2012-08-13 21:09:47 <TD> right
987 2012-08-13 21:09:52 <TD> i remember that discussion
988 2012-08-13 21:12:44 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, vouching for the identify of an individual has liability risks
989 2012-08-13 21:13:00 <phantomcircuit> i doubt gox is willing (or even financially able) to do that
990 2012-08-13 21:13:41 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I'd hope they could adequately disclaim that liablity. Because otherwise yea, no one sane would do that, and that would be sad.
991 2012-08-13 21:14:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i doubt any amount of disclosure and disclaimer would protect you really
992 2012-08-13 21:14:17 <TD> they're already doing it
993 2012-08-13 21:14:30 <TD> if they screw up the ID verification for AML purposes, they're already in trouble
994 2012-08-13 21:14:42 <TD> so i don't see why it would increase their liability
995 2012-08-13 21:15:08 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure, anyone can sue you... but whats the marginal risk? would a couple bucks not cover it?
996 2012-08-13 21:15:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, not even close
997 2012-08-13 21:15:45 <phantomcircuit> assume there are 10k users who would use this (ridiculously high estimate)
998 2012-08-13 21:15:50 <phantomcircuit> you charge them say $3
999 2012-08-13 21:15:55 <phantomcircuit> 30k USD total
1000 2012-08-13 21:16:03 <phantomcircuit> that's like one lawsuit
1001 2012-08-13 21:16:08 <phantomcircuit> if you're lucky
1002 2012-08-13 21:16:13 <MagicalTux> TD: we've been thinking about this actually
1003 2012-08-13 21:17:18 <TD> MagicalTux: cool. what are your thoughts on it ?
1004 2012-08-13 21:18:54 <MagicalTux> TD: we'd probably be going progressively with this, as it would increase the incentive to create correct fake documents and could flood us with better fake documents (for example limit that to old verified accounts with deposits & enough activity)
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1006 2012-08-13 21:20:09 <TD> makes sense
1007 2012-08-13 21:21:12 <gmaxwell> Guess I should verify my mtgox account then. ha.
1008 2012-08-13 21:21:53 <TD> yeah .... somehow my account lost its verification. sigh. guess it was during transition from old ad/hoc verification to the new system
1009 2012-08-13 21:21:56 <TD> i should resubmit
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1062 2012-08-13 23:28:14 <jgarzik> heh
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1070 2012-08-13 23:35:27 <sipa> hah?
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