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   8 2012-08-15 00:35:20 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD added basic block-as-header+coinbase tx+vector<tx hash> support (see github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/compare/0086931...bloom), tweaked matching algo, emailed ml, Ill be on a plane most of tomorrow, but Ill see responses when I land
   9 2012-08-15 00:35:21 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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  12 2012-08-15 00:46:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: good stuff
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  22 2012-08-15 01:27:37 <gmaxwell> theymos: any p2sh plans? https://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/35cdf0594ef0890703a8ede92f6fc80272d0b0b73d19d2a9af80dd17c11e188c
  23 2012-08-15 01:28:56 <gmaxwell> (FWIW, getrawtransaction decodes those file)
  24 2012-08-15 01:28:59 <gmaxwell> er fine.
  25 2012-08-15 01:30:11 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: blockexplorer.com gets my old getblock patch, so that's probably additional coding to use getrawtx
  26 2012-08-15 01:30:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ('getblock' RPC provides a full JSON dump for a block, including full per-TX dump, in case you're not familiar with it)
  27 2012-08-15 01:30:50 <jgarzik> plus, it probably requires an older version to patch in
  28 2012-08-15 01:32:10 * gmaxwell cues luke to comment on getblock that provides full per-TX dump :)
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  48 2012-08-15 02:42:49 <theymos> Is this possible? http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4436 The first transaction isn't eligible for free tx status and the min fee was decided based on tx size. The second transaction must have fewer inputs, so how can the fee be higher?
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  70 2012-08-15 04:00:14 <luke-jr> theymos: the inputs are newer
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  92 2012-08-15 05:03:00 <jgarzik> thread title: "Bitcoin client upload saturating my DSL connection. (No bandwidth throttling ?)"
  93 2012-08-15 05:10:22 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I think there's a bug on that topic too
  94 2012-08-15 05:10:48 <jgarzik> The poster is correct that bitcoin client can and will max out your upstream
  95 2012-08-15 05:12:14 <luke-jr> that applies to most programs that upload afaik
  96 2012-08-15 05:14:33 <jgarzik> most programs that are peer-to-peer, online 24/7, and upload have bandwidth controls
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 118 2012-08-15 06:28:44 <midnightmagic> if I had a shorter chain but which represented more actual work, but still had the checkpoints as a base, would it cause a reorg to my shorter chain?
 119 2012-08-15 06:29:13 <luke-jr> yes
 120 2012-08-15 06:29:29 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, that's actually not possible
 121 2012-08-15 06:29:36 <phantomcircuit> wait
 122 2012-08-15 06:29:38 <phantomcircuit> maybe it is
 123 2012-08-15 06:29:40 <midnightmagic> thanks. i knew it didn't go the other way (less work, longer chain)
 124 2012-08-15 06:29:41 <phantomcircuit> yes it is
 125 2012-08-15 06:30:10 <luke-jr> hmm
 126 2012-08-15 06:30:14 <luke-jr> I wonder if that's exploitablre
 127 2012-08-15 06:30:20 <phantomcircuit> of course it would require a 50% attack
 128 2012-08-15 06:30:21 <midnightmagic> i'd just have to magically mine at a much higher difficulty for a while in secret.
 129 2012-08-15 06:30:25 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: yes, it will reorg to a shorter chain, if the shorter chain's total work is > the longer chain
 130 2012-08-15 06:30:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: no?
 131 2012-08-15 06:30:36 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, im not sure
 132 2012-08-15 06:30:41 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: thanks, i like triangulation
 133 2012-08-15 06:30:51 <luke-jr> get the difficulty on your chain high enough to counter the current chain with 1 block
 134 2012-08-15 06:30:54 <luke-jr> then hope you get lucky
 135 2012-08-15 06:31:08 <luke-jr> 64% chance you'll find it with the same work as the main chain would take to get there…
 136 2012-08-15 06:31:19 <midnightmagic> it would be similarly as likely as just mining a longer chain normally wouldn't it?
 137 2012-08-15 06:31:31 <phantomcircuit> actually
 138 2012-08-15 06:31:31 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no, it would just be amazingly lucky
 139 2012-08-15 06:31:35 <midnightmagic> (presuming identical work)
 140 2012-08-15 06:31:36 <phantomcircuit> i guess you could do it
 141 2012-08-15 06:31:45 <phantomcircuit> by screwing with the timestamps in your chain
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 143 2012-08-15 06:32:01 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: 64% chance you could get away with less actual work
 144 2012-08-15 06:32:07 <phantomcircuit> but you would need to either be ridiculously lucky or have WAY more processing power than the main network
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 146 2012-08-15 06:32:27 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but you'd only need to be lucky ONCE
 147 2012-08-15 06:32:37 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: .. I have go explain in brush strokes bitcoin to someone, i'll be back later. I'd really like to know how you arrived at the 64% figure.
 148 2012-08-15 06:32:53 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: 64% of blocks are found with less than average shares
 149 2012-08-15 06:32:54 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, well you'd probably need to be lucky for 2016 blocks
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 151 2012-08-15 06:33:21 <phantomcircuit> since the target recalculation only happens on the boundary and blocks with the wrong target are rejected
 152 2012-08-15 06:33:25 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: maybe.
 153 2012-08-15 06:33:32 <midnightmagic> or you just wait for teh 2016th
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 155 2012-08-15 06:33:35 <phantomcircuit> (work is calculated from the target not the actual hash)
 156 2012-08-15 06:33:49 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: then you're limited to how much you can change it
 157 2012-08-15 06:33:57 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, the recalculation takes into account all the blocks in the last group
 158 2012-08-15 06:34:04 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: no, it doesn't
 159 2012-08-15 06:34:08 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't?
 160 2012-08-15 06:34:09 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: it's last - first
 161 2012-08-15 06:34:12 <phantomcircuit> oh
 162 2012-08-15 06:34:23 <luke-jr> but you can't set your block's timestamp more than the median of the last N blocks
 163 2012-08-15 06:34:25 <midnightmagic> except.. hrm. 2016th timestamp is ignored in retarget
 164 2012-08-15 06:34:27 <luke-jr> s/more/before
 165 2012-08-15 06:34:48 <midnightmagic> anyway doesn't matter. bbl
 166 2012-08-15 06:35:20 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, basically you'd be trying to skyrocket the target by screwing with block timestamps and then getting lucky with a single ridiculously low target block
 167 2012-08-15 06:35:38 <phantomcircuit> i suspect if you worked out the numbers you'd find a 51% attack to be easier
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 209 2012-08-15 08:03:50 <denisx> rpc calls to bitcoind (like getinfo or getwork) from 127.0.0.1 don't require authentication, right?
 210 2012-08-15 08:08:47 setkeh has joined
 211 2012-08-15 08:13:16 <weex> they require that an rpcuser and rpcpassword be set in bitcoin.conf
 212 2012-08-15 08:13:34 <weex> if you're using bitcoind to to do the calling
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 214 2012-08-15 08:13:44 <weex> from php does require those credentials denisx
 215 2012-08-15 08:13:58 <denisx> ok
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 256 2012-08-15 10:13:01 zveda has joined
 257 2012-08-15 10:13:04 <zveda> hi
 258 2012-08-15 10:13:32 <zveda> is there a discussion somewhere of the timeline for the upcoming hard fork ?
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 261 2012-08-15 10:22:08 <sipa> zveda: there is no hard fork planned
 262 2012-08-15 10:22:34 <zveda> sipa, but I read in the 'scaling bitcoin' discussions
 263 2012-08-15 10:22:39 <epscy> sipa: is there a plan to increase the block size so the chain can handle more transactions?
 264 2012-08-15 10:22:46 <zveda> yes the block size
 265 2012-08-15 10:23:11 <zveda> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Current_bottlenecks
 266 2012-08-15 10:23:26 <zveda> "Once those limits are lifted, the maximum transaction rate will go up significantly. "
 267 2012-08-15 10:23:34 <zveda> Seems to imply that the fork is imminent .. ?
 268 2012-08-15 10:24:08 <epscy> zveda: i don't think the wiki is neccessarily up to date
 269 2012-08-15 10:24:21 <epscy> someone may have wrote that a couple of years ago
 270 2012-08-15 10:24:35 <zveda> hm I see
 271 2012-08-15 10:24:38 <zveda> so what's the plan now
 272 2012-08-15 10:24:45 <zveda> to deal with the block size?
 273 2012-08-15 10:24:50 <zveda> or just leave things be ?
 274 2012-08-15 10:25:02 <epscy> i think it is to leave things be
 275 2012-08-15 10:25:05 <justmoon> I think for now most people are focusing on improving scalability and performance
 276 2012-08-15 10:25:06 <epscy> for the time being
 277 2012-08-15 10:25:14 <justmoon> we need to be ready to deal with larger blocks before we allow them
 278 2012-08-15 10:25:29 <sipa> in case the transaction rate goes up even more, space in blocks will become more expensive
 279 2012-08-15 10:25:44 <sipa> so at that point, tx fees may become more relevant
 280 2012-08-15 10:25:46 <epscy> gmaxwell has written about how bitcoin doesn't need to scale to visa levels of transactions, it can be used as a clearing house
 281 2012-08-15 10:26:02 <sipa> yes, bitcoin is a currency, not a payment processor
 282 2012-08-15 10:26:32 <justmoon> sipa: I disagree with gmaxwell (and many others) on that
 283 2012-08-15 10:26:37 <sipa> it can be used as a simple payment processor directly, but it is slow and hard to use as one
 284 2012-08-15 10:26:42 <sipa> justmoon: i know
 285 2012-08-15 10:26:46 <justmoon> by the same token you could make a micropayment network and use paypal as a "clearing house"
 286 2012-08-15 10:27:07 <justmoon> the benefit comes from having a common standard for transaction directly
 287 2012-08-15 10:27:27 <epscy> zveda: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Scalability#Response_from_Gregory_Maxwell
 288 2012-08-15 10:27:48 <sipa> sure, i think bitcoin has many advantages over other currencies, when you want to build an electronic payment processor on top of it
 289 2012-08-15 10:28:49 <zveda> I see thx
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 291 2012-08-15 10:31:03 <justmoon> sipa: the price of payment processors doesn't come from their clearing costs, but from their market position. if bitcoin is used merely in the background, then the payment processors with the best adoption will still be able to charge high premiums
 292 2012-08-15 10:31:49 <epscy> justmoon: i think the difference is that getting set up with a visa merchant account can be a costly and time consuming process
 293 2012-08-15 10:31:57 <epscy> this is not true of bitcoin
 294 2012-08-15 10:32:29 <epscy> so if any payment processor acts too "evil" the barrier to entry for a competitor is very low
 295 2012-08-15 10:32:57 grondilu has joined
 296 2012-08-15 10:33:31 <grondilu> I run "bitoind help" and I get a "error:  couldn't connect to server".  ??
 297 2012-08-15 10:33:37 <justmoon> epscy: I'm not arguing that bitcoin wouldn't still be an improvement over the status quo - it just wouldn't as big of one
 298 2012-08-15 10:33:59 <epscy> and it would be difficult for one bitcoin payment processor to prevent users from moving to another
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 300 2012-08-15 10:34:30 <justmoon> epscy: not necessarily, since payments from processor to processor would be more expensive then internal payments
 301 2012-08-15 10:34:35 <epscy> justmoon: the problems you identify aren't technical, they are economic and social
 302 2012-08-15 10:35:01 <justmoon> epscy: yes, I think there is no technical reason to limit the scale of bitcoin only economic and social ones
 303 2012-08-15 10:35:04 <epscy> justmoon: if the user can withdraw btc then i don't see the problem
 304 2012-08-15 10:35:46 <justmoon> epscy: if you switch payment processors you can still transact with the people using that payment processor, it'll just cost more
 305 2012-08-15 10:36:04 <justmoon> it'll be more like the banking system we have now, or like the mobile phone market
 306 2012-08-15 10:36:30 <epscy> justmoon: i think there are technical limits to bitcoins ability to scale
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 310 2012-08-15 10:36:43 <epscy> look at the problems we have with the size of the blockchain already
 311 2012-08-15 10:37:11 <justmoon> that's because currently there is no way to distribute verification work across multiple nodes that don't trust one another
 312 2012-08-15 10:37:19 <epscy> justmoon: also it would be different from the current system, in that you can send btc directly to people
 313 2012-08-15 10:37:28 <epscy> in theory that should keep the PP honest
 314 2012-08-15 10:38:29 <justmoon> you can also send money using other methods to people today, that only keeps western union "honest" to the extent that this other method is competitive price-wise
 315 2012-08-15 10:38:42 <justmoon> remember our premise is that bitcoin transactions get relatively expensive
 316 2012-08-15 10:38:58 cdecker has joined
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 318 2012-08-15 10:40:06 <epscy> yeah
 319 2012-08-15 10:40:13 <justmoon> epscy: all I'm asking is that we assume that the existing tasks a bitcoin node performs can be decentralized and that if we introduce new features that are mandatory for mining nodes that these features fulfill the same criterion
 320 2012-08-15 10:40:19 <epscy> i don't believe bitcoin will ever be the only currency used
 321 2012-08-15 10:40:58 <epscy> but bitcoins low barrier to entry and openness will hopefully encourage other financial services to compete more fairly
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 323 2012-08-15 10:41:36 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 324 2012-08-15 10:42:04 <zveda> why does there need to be a hard limit on block size anyway. couldnt the miners artificially decide on a limit?
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 326 2012-08-15 10:42:55 <epscy> i guess it would be too easy to create huge blocks and dmamage the blockchain
 327 2012-08-15 10:43:03 <epscy> spam essentially
 328 2012-08-15 10:43:18 <justmoon> epscy: there is a strong disincentive to create blocks other miners won't accept
 329 2012-08-15 10:43:18 Clipse has joined
 330 2012-08-15 10:43:22 <epscy> this is the problem bitcoin has with satoshidice
 331 2012-08-15 10:43:24 <justmoon> namely your work will be entirely wasted
 332 2012-08-15 10:43:41 <zveda> if somebody creates a really big block, the other miners could orphan it
 333 2012-08-15 10:43:43 <grondilu> what about the head-only client?  Wouldn't that solve the problem of the size of the blockchain?
 334 2012-08-15 10:44:00 <zveda> we can leverage the democracy of bitcoin more perhaps
 335 2012-08-15 10:44:17 <justmoon> grondilu: currently verification requires a dataset which is ultimately O(n) for n transactions
 336 2012-08-15 10:44:46 <justmoon> grondilu: to fundamentally change the scalability properties without giving up on decentralization we need untrusted nodes to cooperate on verification
 337 2012-08-15 10:45:39 <justmoon> for that you need a protocol that makes it impractical for somebody to create an invalid transaction and get all the verification assigned to himself
 338 2012-08-15 10:45:45 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 339 2012-08-15 10:45:51 <grondilu> a single client does not have to know the whole dataset.  It only has to know transactions of the blocks where comes incoming paiements.
 340 2012-08-15 10:46:37 <justmoon> ? can you rephrase I didn't understand that sentence
 341 2012-08-15 10:46:55 <grondilu> a single client does not have to know the whole dataset.  It only has to know transactions of the blocks where come incoming paiements.
 342 2012-08-15 10:47:06 <zveda> lol
 343 2012-08-15 10:47:09 <justmoon> ^^
 344 2012-08-15 10:47:15 <justmoon> the s wasn't the problem :)
 345 2012-08-15 10:47:21 <grondilu> did I write soething silly?
 346 2012-08-15 10:47:41 <justmoon> so to verify transactions you need to know that the outputs they are spending haven't been spent
 347 2012-08-15 10:47:58 <justmoon> right now the only way to know for sure is if you have seen all transactions
 348 2012-08-15 10:48:02 <grondilu> oh.  Indeed.
 349 2012-08-15 10:48:27 <epscy> i think you guys are underestimating the likelihood of people trying to disrupt bitcoin
 350 2012-08-15 10:48:36 <epscy> mining still isn't that expensive
 351 2012-08-15 10:49:07 <epscy> and if someone was motivated enough they could really grow the blockchain
 352 2012-08-15 10:49:08 <zveda> bitcoin decentralization is already kind of compromised since most clients are not mining. Since we trust the miners with including and excluding transactions, why not trust them to set the blocksize as well ?
 353 2012-08-15 10:49:41 <freewil> well we dont just "trust" them to include txs
 354 2012-08-15 10:49:44 <freewil> thats what fees are for
 355 2012-08-15 10:49:51 <justmoon> zveda: I with you, I do think miners should set the block size
 356 2012-08-15 10:49:57 <justmoon> I'm* with you
 357 2012-08-15 10:50:02 <zveda> they can still decide to ignore any tx's they want
 358 2012-08-15 10:50:03 paraipan has joined
 359 2012-08-15 10:50:10 <zveda> yes justmoon I realised I said pretty much same thing as you lol
 360 2012-08-15 10:50:37 <epscy> well you could always start your own altcoin
 361 2012-08-15 10:50:50 <epscy> if you think that would be a significant advantage
 362 2012-08-15 10:51:24 <justmoon> epscy: scalability is only an advantage if capacity is a problem
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 364 2012-08-15 10:51:33 <epscy> i suspect you would end in a tradgedy of the commons type situation though
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 368 2012-08-15 10:52:52 <grondilu> well, since miner can chose to exclude or include transactions anyway, it's pretty much the same as if they can decide the blockside already, isn't it?
 369 2012-08-15 10:53:20 <epscy> grondilu: not exactly
 370 2012-08-15 10:53:35 <epscy> they can't create blocks bigger than the block size
 371 2012-08-15 10:53:52 <epscy> but yes some miners do put a single tx in a block
 372 2012-08-15 10:53:57 <justmoon> the block size would be bigger than the block size?
 373 2012-08-15 10:54:13 <epscy> justmoon: yes the block size limit
 374 2012-08-15 10:54:18 <justmoon> ah, well good!
 375 2012-08-15 10:54:31 <justmoon> we want them to process as many transactions as is technically feasible
 376 2012-08-15 10:54:38 <sipa> justmoon: i'd fully agree with miners setting the block sise, if miners weren't the only ones that get paid
 377 2012-08-15 10:54:57 <justmoon> sipa: who else should be paid?
 378 2012-08-15 10:55:10 <sipa> everyone running a node
 379 2012-08-15 10:55:23 <justmoon> why? they don't have to process full blocks
 380 2012-08-15 10:56:09 <sipa> well, those who want to validate transactions do
 381 2012-08-15 10:56:19 <justmoon> why would I want to validate transactions if I'm not mining?
 382 2012-08-15 10:56:34 <sipa> if you want to accept payments, for example
 383 2012-08-15 10:56:43 <justmoon> I don't care how I get attacked, and validation doesn't protect me against double spends
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 385 2012-08-15 10:57:34 <sipa> well, in a situation where only miners run full nkdes, i'm sure that others would want to too, just to be prudent and that what they get is reasonable
 386 2012-08-15 10:57:35 <epscy> justmoon: the fact that the blockchain can be downloaded from multiple nodes, not all them mining, but all independently validating helps prevent people from taking over the network
 387 2012-08-15 10:57:52 <sipa> meh, blockchain archival is a different problem
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 390 2012-08-15 10:58:39 <justmoon> hmm, so the worry is that miners would conspire?
 391 2012-08-15 10:58:43 kish has joined
 392 2012-08-15 10:58:50 <sipa> point remains that miners are the gatekeepers to the network, and all others that want to participate (for whatever reason)
 393 2012-08-15 10:59:00 <sipa> are affected by their decision
 394 2012-08-15 10:59:14 <justmoon> miners want to be able to spend their mining revenue
 395 2012-08-15 10:59:17 janfrech has joined
 396 2012-08-15 10:59:21 <zveda> originally didn't satoshi envisage that every node is also a miner
 397 2012-08-15 10:59:24 <justmoon> so they already have an incentive that the network is working
 398 2012-08-15 10:59:24 <sipa> yes
 399 2012-08-15 10:59:35 <sipa> they have to keep the network running for them
 400 2012-08-15 11:00:09 <epscy> zveda: yeah, as smart as he was he failed to predict mining pools and mining companies
 401 2012-08-15 11:00:12 <sipa> but they have all incentive to make mining (and running full nodes) as centralized as possible
 402 2012-08-15 11:00:35 cande has joined
 403 2012-08-15 11:00:36 <epscy> litecoin seems to have failed to use scrypt to work as satoshi intended
 404 2012-08-15 11:00:43 kiceek has joined
 405 2012-08-15 11:01:18 <sipa> and eventually you end may end up with a system where mining is controlled by a cartel, and the rest just runs SPV nodes
 406 2012-08-15 11:01:47 <sipa> which may also work (economically), but it is surely not what i'd like bitcoin to be
 407 2012-08-15 11:02:08 <justmoon> firstly, historically, we know that cartels are unstable and self-destruct, because everyone in the cartel has a strong incentive to cheat
 408 2012-08-15 11:02:15 <zveda> it would be pretty easy to challenge these cartels
 409 2012-08-15 11:02:15 <justmoon> secondly how does verification help you against a cartel
 410 2012-08-15 11:02:24 <epscy> miners are like congressmen, the protocol is the supreme court
 411 2012-08-15 11:02:24 <justmoon> they can just squeeze you on fees
 412 2012-08-15 11:02:39 <justmoon> epscy: we all know how great that worked :P
 413 2012-08-15 11:02:43 <sipa> agree, these are separate issues
 414 2012-08-15 11:03:13 <zveda> perhaps the miners need to follow a protocol too
 415 2012-08-15 11:03:35 <sipa> the P2P network does very different things
 416 2012-08-15 11:03:53 <sipa> it is used to bootstrap full nodes (download historic block data)
 417 2012-08-15 11:03:55 <epscy> justmoon: yeah lets just get rid of all the checks and balances
 418 2012-08-15 11:03:56 <justmoon> sipa: ironically the most realistic scenario for miners to actually corner the market is by getting a network-wise block size limit accepted :)
 419 2012-08-15 11:04:04 <epscy> instead of trying to fix them
 420 2012-08-15 11:04:15 <grondilu> is it possible to type something such as: "bitcoind backupwallet - |gpg -c |mail -s backup myself@somewhere.com" ?
 421 2012-08-15 11:04:28 <justmoon> the harder the limit the harder it is for individual miners to cheat and include transactions more cheaply
 422 2012-08-15 11:04:30 <sipa> grondilu: no, you'll need a temp file
 423 2012-08-15 11:04:38 <grondilu> too bad, imho
 424 2012-08-15 11:04:54 <zveda> it would be nice if I could send my transaction only to a certain miner
 425 2012-08-15 11:04:56 <zveda> to reward them
 426 2012-08-15 11:05:00 <zveda> for being good
 427 2012-08-15 11:05:02 <epscy> justmoon: also i think you need to study history again, natural monopolies and cartels can and have lasted longer than a human lifetime
 428 2012-08-15 11:05:09 <zveda> that would enhance the democracy
 429 2012-08-15 11:05:11 <sipa> zveda: you can, just ask them how they want it
 430 2012-08-15 11:05:34 <zveda> sipa, what do you mean ?
 431 2012-08-15 11:05:44 <zveda> can I avoid 'broadcasting' my transaction ?
 432 2012-08-15 11:05:53 <justmoon> epscy: a natural monopoly is something very very different from a cartel
 433 2012-08-15 11:05:56 <sipa> just connect to them directly
 434 2012-08-15 11:06:07 <zveda> oh ok
 435 2012-08-15 11:06:08 <zveda> well then
 436 2012-08-15 11:06:10 <sipa> -connect miners.ip.address
 437 2012-08-15 11:06:19 <zveda> the mining cartels will have no clout
 438 2012-08-15 11:06:35 <zveda> if there's any minor competitor, people will just connect to them.. and wait a bit longer
 439 2012-08-15 11:06:51 <zveda> but much lower fees
 440 2012-08-15 11:06:52 <epscy> justmoon: from the point of view of people being oppressed it usually isn't
 441 2012-08-15 11:08:10 <epscy> i lean libertarian but this whole free market without regulation is dumb, demonstrably so by any good history book
 442 2012-08-15 11:08:46 <zveda> hey what if we have say.. 10 grades of mining pools.. grade 1 the biggest and finds the most blocks, but charges the highest fees, down to 10 as the slowest and lowest fees. so you have 10 blocks being worked on constantly. you can get your transaction included in a block being worked on much faster.. tho it wont make it into the blockchain any faster
 443 2012-08-15 11:08:54 <justmoon> epscy: how would you distinguish regulation from having a cartel?
 444 2012-08-15 11:09:57 <sipa> anyway, the p2p protocol today: 1) download historic blocks for bootstrapping full nodes 2) communication channel between senders and receivers of transactions 3) broadcast communication channels for transactions to miners 4) blockchain status synchronisation (new recent blocks)... 1) can be moved to a different protocol, 2) is just stupid, 3) may get replaced over time
 445 2012-08-15 11:10:29 <justmoon> the only people involved in the day-to-day operations of a regulatory agency are the people being regulated, the difference between a regulatory agency and a cartel is that I can choose to cheat the cartel and make more money, thereby destroying the cartel
 446 2012-08-15 11:10:42 <justmoon> if I try that with a regulatory agency I will get fined / go to jail
 447 2012-08-15 11:11:29 <zveda> regulatory agencies are also a kind of cartel
 448 2012-08-15 11:14:13 <epscy> justmoon: if you are suggesting that the government is a cartel then you may be right
 449 2012-08-15 11:14:29 <epscy> but at least it is a cartel that the average person has some influence over
 450 2012-08-15 11:14:36 <justmoon> I'm not suggesting anything other than what I'm outright saying :)
 451 2012-08-15 11:14:50 <epscy> though I don't believe western democracy is participatory enough
 452 2012-08-15 11:15:00 <epscy> i think politics should be more local
 453 2012-08-15 11:15:52 <justmoon> I strongly agree with that
 454 2012-08-15 11:17:33 <justmoon> but I'm worried you might have set yourself up for a self-contradiction
 455 2012-08-15 11:17:58 <justmoon> if you believe regulation is good, but government should be local, aren't you worried that companies will dodge regulation by moving?
 456 2012-08-15 11:19:19 <epscy> nope
 457 2012-08-15 11:19:27 <epscy> i mean they will
 458 2012-08-15 11:19:38 <epscy> but it's not a big problem
 459 2012-08-15 11:20:00 <zveda> so if I can interject for a second guys; so the block size limit doesn't limit the number of 0-confirmation transactions right ?
 460 2012-08-15 11:20:26 <epscy> i can see lots of nearby localites adopting the same regulations, effectively having a treaty with each other
 461 2012-08-15 11:20:26 <zveda> I mean I can potentially accept a >8 0-conf tps ?
 462 2012-08-15 11:20:58 <epscy> the point is a single one should be able to opt out if the people there feel it is no longer in their interests
 463 2012-08-15 11:20:58 <sipa> zveda: yes
 464 2012-08-15 11:21:21 <epscy> if the regulation is bad, other localities will follow suit
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 466 2012-08-15 11:21:35 <zveda> so really this block size limit doesn't affect micro transactions much.. since presumably they are fince to accept 0-conf
 467 2012-08-15 11:21:42 <zveda> fine*
 468 2012-08-15 11:21:46 <epscy> we should probably take the politics elsewhere
 469 2012-08-15 11:22:40 <sipa> zveda: but those microtransactions could never end up in a block
 470 2012-08-15 11:22:51 <sipa> or it will take longer and longer to get in
 471 2012-08-15 11:22:52 <justmoon> epscy: yeah, I'm happy to end on that note, a pluralistic world like you describe is fine with me, what I'm worried about are those who want a global government
 472 2012-08-15 11:22:55 <zveda> btw I can tell you guys are americans with all your regulations.. the world needs more 'unwritten rules' imho.
 473 2012-08-15 11:23:16 <zveda> sipa, well eventually they should get in tho right? isn't there some sort of queue for low-fee transactions.. ?
 474 2012-08-15 11:23:59 <justmoon> zveda: for the record I'm german :]
 475 2012-08-15 11:24:49 <zveda> my naive point of view: in sports where you have a million rules and 5+ referees and a few video referees etc, you still have just as much if not more cheating, plus everything is more complicated
 476 2012-08-15 11:25:41 <zveda> sipa, perhaps this queue could be put on the web somewhere
 477 2012-08-15 11:25:44 <sipa> zveda: you just contradicted yourself
 478 2012-08-15 11:25:59 <zveda> I did ?
 479 2012-08-15 11:26:21 <sipa> if there is a limited queue, and you send more in than what can be mined, the queue will overflow
 480 2012-08-15 11:26:29 <justmoon> zveda: "could be put on the web somewhere" <- blockchain.info shows a list of the unconfirmed transactions
 481 2012-08-15 11:26:36 <sipa> and you to drop things from it
 482 2012-08-15 11:27:22 <zveda> sipa, ah true good point
 483 2012-08-15 11:27:33 <zveda> justmoon, yes, but I mean I'd like to see the place in the queue
 484 2012-08-15 11:27:39 <sipa> also, if you talk aboit accepting 0-conf, you're using the p2p network as a communication channel between senders and receivers of transactions, and that is imho a usage that should disappear over time
 485 2012-08-15 11:28:08 <sipa> it's useful for personal payments, and anonymous donations
 486 2012-08-15 11:28:42 <justmoon> zveda: the place in the queue would be represented by what's called the priority - I believe there is some way to query the bitcoin client to get it to tell you the priority for a transaction
 487 2012-08-15 11:29:12 <sipa> zveda: also, every node can have a different idea about that queue
 488 2012-08-15 11:29:30 <zveda> well it's the miner's queue isnt it
 489 2012-08-15 11:29:37 <zveda> the miner decides
 490 2012-08-15 11:29:39 <sipa> there are many miners :)
 491 2012-08-15 11:29:56 <zveda> yes
 492 2012-08-15 11:30:09 <sipa> and they will most certainly not always agree
 493 2012-08-15 11:30:20 <sipa> (if they always did, we already have a cartel)
 494 2012-08-15 11:30:41 <justmoon> you guys are throwing the c word around a bit too lightly ^^
 495 2012-08-15 11:30:42 <zveda> that's what I meant when I was talking about before.. if you have a tiered miners system.. where your fee level determines your tier.. then you'll know which queue you are in
 496 2012-08-15 11:31:09 <sipa> justmoon: haha
 497 2012-08-15 11:31:25 <sipa> would you prefer me to use the word monopoly in this case?
 498 2012-08-15 11:32:04 <sipa> zveda: there are aleady such tiers: the different priorities within each's mempool
 499 2012-08-15 11:32:21 <sipa> but you cannot have any global consensus about a single queue
 500 2012-08-15 11:32:32 <sipa> that's just not possible theoretically
 501 2012-08-15 11:32:40 <zveda> sipa, right, but I meant if each mempool would have a website with their queue
 502 2012-08-15 11:32:51 <zveda> so you know when your transaction is being worked on
 503 2012-08-15 11:32:54 <sipa> each node has such a queue
 504 2012-08-15 11:33:26 <sipa> i think what you're aiming for is feedback from miners about their queue policies
 505 2012-08-15 11:33:33 <zveda> yes
 506 2012-08-15 11:33:38 <justmoon> sipa: well, I was going to say that simply because all miners use the same rules doesn't mean that there is a formal agreement between them (for example in the earliest days of bitcoin all miners would have been using the exact same rules and it wasn't because of a cartel)
 507 2012-08-15 11:33:39 <sipa> so you can efficiently determine which fee you need for what.service
 508 2012-08-15 11:33:44 <justmoon> maybe I'm too nitpicky :P
 509 2012-08-15 11:33:53 <sipa> justmoon: that's not what i meant
 510 2012-08-15 11:34:31 <sipa> justmoon: agreeing about the rules is not necessarily agreeing about the actual queue at a given point in time; the latter requires coordination between miners
 511 2012-08-15 11:34:48 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 512 2012-08-15 11:34:57 <justmoon> sipa: you win this round *goes back to nerd lair*
 513 2012-08-15 11:34:58 MC-Eeepc has joined
 514 2012-08-15 11:36:21 <sipa> justmoon: anyway, i heard you might go to the hackaton before the conference?
 515 2012-08-15 11:36:46 <justmoon> yes, mike and I are flying in on the 12th
 516 2012-08-15 11:36:53 <sipa> oh, nice
 517 2012-08-15 11:37:16 <justmoon> I'll be at the hackathon and he'll be dropping in when he isn't hanging with the people he's visiting
 518 2012-08-15 11:37:35 <sipa> i suppose i can come early as well
 519 2012-08-15 11:39:45 <justmoon> nah, we're just gonna do some programming, eating fast food and debating overly ambitious bitcoin standards - you wouldn't like it
 520 2012-08-15 11:39:51 <justmoon> :P
 521 2012-08-15 11:40:08 <sipa> *books flight*
 522 2012-08-15 11:40:18 <sipa> wait, train!
 523 2012-08-15 11:42:57 <justmoon> brb, I'm needed in the kitchen to attend to a "instant noodle incident"
 524 2012-08-15 11:44:17 TD has joined
 525 2012-08-15 11:44:46 <justmoon> TD: speak of the devil - hi! :)
 526 2012-08-15 11:45:08 <TD> hi
 527 2012-08-15 11:45:15 <sipa> justmoon: i win, again! i accidentally my instant noodles a few minutes ago
 528 2012-08-15 11:45:33 <TD> what happens if i force push a branch that has an open pull req?
 529 2012-08-15 11:45:42 <TD> i'm going to fix up the leveldb branch a bit this afternoon
 530 2012-08-15 11:45:44 <TD> at least that's the plan
 531 2012-08-15 11:45:45 <sipa> the pull req gets updated
 532 2012-08-15 11:45:52 <TD> yeah but do i lose the comments or anything?
 533 2012-08-15 11:45:58 <sipa> no
 534 2012-08-15 11:46:15 <TD> cool
 535 2012-08-15 11:46:15 <sipa> only comments on the actual previous code
 536 2012-08-15 11:46:49 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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 539 2012-08-15 11:50:48 <TD> how does one run the unit tests? i can't find the test_bitcoin binary anywhere
 540 2012-08-15 11:52:34 <sipa> you build it like you build bitcoind
 541 2012-08-15 11:52:55 <sipa> cd src; make -f makefile.unix test_bitcoin
 542 2012-08-15 11:53:49 <TD> ah
 543 2012-08-15 11:53:54 <TD> thanks
 544 2012-08-15 11:54:00 <TD> i figured it'd be built by default
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 546 2012-08-15 11:56:21 <TD> justmoon: i booked rooms in the Z. i'll stay with my brother the first two days
 547 2012-08-15 11:56:27 <TD> may or may not drop in on the hackathon
 548 2012-08-15 11:56:40 <justmoon> kewl, sipa is coming to the hackathon
 549 2012-08-15 11:56:47 <sipa> what's the Z?
 550 2012-08-15 11:57:00 <justmoon> Z Victoria
 551 2012-08-15 11:57:01 <justmoon> a hotel
 552 2012-08-15 11:57:09 <sipa> ok, lemme check it out
 553 2012-08-15 11:57:15 <sipa> j
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 563 2012-08-15 12:07:38 <TD> the test suite opens the production/locally installed txdb!
 564 2012-08-15 12:07:58 <sipa> it shouldn't
 565 2012-08-15 12:08:04 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:src hearn$ ./test_bitcoin
 566 2012-08-15 12:08:04 <TD> CDBEnv::MakeMock()
 567 2012-08-15 12:08:05 <TD> Opening LevelDB in /Users/hearn/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/txleveldb
 568 2012-08-15 12:08:05 <TD> Test setup error: std::runtime_error: CDB(): error opening database environment IO error: lock /Users/hearn/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/txleveldb/LOCK: Resource temporarily unavailable
 569 2012-08-15 12:08:16 <TD> looks like i need to update it then :)
 570 2012-08-15 12:08:32 <sipa> it should open a memory-backed one
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 584 2012-08-15 12:38:04 <TD> what a pita
 585 2012-08-15 12:38:13 <TD> the in-memory environment is not a part of the main leveldb build
 586 2012-08-15 12:38:15 <TD> ugh
 587 2012-08-15 12:39:59 <sipa> tlleveldb has a memory-only version?
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 589 2012-08-15 12:40:40 <justmoon> TD: good thing we include the source then - should be a simple change to the makefile no?
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 597 2012-08-15 12:48:48 <TD> sipa: yes
 598 2012-08-15 12:48:56 <TD> justmoon: yep. another patch. luke will love us :)
 599 2012-08-15 12:50:14 <justmoon> I might want to port that one too - bitcoinjs right now just does unit tests in /tmp
 600 2012-08-15 12:50:37 <justmoon> although some part of me prefers that - what if the memory table behaves differently?
 601 2012-08-15 12:51:56 <justmoon> (note I said some part of me, it's not the part that understands that unit tests shouldn't try to test upstream libraries :) )
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 604 2012-08-15 13:01:56 <OneEyed> I just packaged Electrum and its dependencies for Arch Linux. Once the pull request I sent for the missing package is merged, Arch users can install Electrum in one command
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 607 2012-08-15 13:15:18 <TD> does anyone know how to add code that runs on qmake clean?
 608 2012-08-15 13:15:50 <TD> QMAKE_CLEAN += ?
 609 2012-08-15 13:17:08 <sipa> http://www.qtforum.org/article/33381/qmake-how-to-tell-makefile-that-i-like-to-remove-also-directories-not-only-files-using-qmake-clean-parameter.html?s=c1a2620f60d7b4e347f938fc69cda72471818c43#post107506 ?
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 655 2012-08-15 15:27:30 <zveda> hey guys
 656 2012-08-15 15:27:37 <zveda> I has another question
 657 2012-08-15 15:27:49 <zveda> when is lightweight, head-only mode coming ? :D
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 661 2012-08-15 15:30:37 <t7> in n days
 662 2012-08-15 15:30:52 <t7> where n is up to you
 663 2012-08-15 15:30:58 <t7> the fate is in your hands sir
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 665 2012-08-15 15:31:56 <sipa> zveda: the long-term plan is to move to a system where the client starts in header-only, and then synchronizes the chain
 666 2012-08-15 15:32:28 <zveda> ok THX
 667 2012-08-15 15:32:43 <sipa> when... no idea
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 669 2012-08-15 15:35:20 <TD> zveda: there already are some
 670 2012-08-15 15:35:24 <TD> zveda: i mean, clients
 671 2012-08-15 15:35:41 <TD> zveda: if you mean explicitly, mode of bitcoin-qt, then yeah, not yet. but multibit and friends already are lightweight
 672 2012-08-15 15:37:33 <Herodes> coinbase.com could be checked out as welll.
 673 2012-08-15 15:37:34 <Herodes> :)
 674 2012-08-15 15:38:02 <sipa> does coinbase.com have a client?
 675 2012-08-15 15:38:04 <justmoon> Herodes: hosted clients are heresy, people have been quartered for less
 676 2012-08-15 15:39:39 <Herodes> sipa: I didn't try it yet, just heard it was an easy way to get started with bitcoin.
 677 2012-08-15 15:39:53 <Herodes> justmoon: :)
 678 2012-08-15 15:40:01 <Herodes> for small amounts I don't see the big problem.
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 680 2012-08-15 15:40:15 <Herodes> operator has to be trusted obv.
 681 2012-08-15 15:40:24 <sipa> i'm sure they provide an e-wallet, but i doubt that's what zveda means where asks about header-only mode in a client
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 683 2012-08-15 15:40:30 <Herodes> but one should never put more money in such a service than can be tolerated to lose
 684 2012-08-15 15:40:42 <sipa> s/where/when he/
 685 2012-08-15 15:40:43 <Herodes> sipa: obv.
 686 2012-08-15 15:41:05 <Herodes> i've read some discussions of it in the dev part of bitcointalk forum.
 687 2012-08-15 15:41:16 <Herodes> obv block chain is getting big, and something has to be done about it.
 688 2012-08-15 15:41:18 <justmoon> sipa: how come people call it an ewallet? it's not like other clients aren't electronic
 689 2012-08-15 15:41:46 localhost has joined
 690 2012-08-15 15:41:49 <sipa> justmoon: good question!
 691 2012-08-15 15:41:55 <justmoon> ^^
 692 2012-08-15 15:42:02 <sipa> Herodes: there are lots of things that can be done about it :)
 693 2012-08-15 15:42:42 localhost has quit (Client Quit)
 694 2012-08-15 15:42:59 <Herodes> sipa: yes, i have no worries in that regard.
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 696 2012-08-15 15:51:19 <zveda> I just worry about the tps
 697 2012-08-15 15:51:22 <zveda> tho I probably shouldnt
 698 2012-08-15 15:51:36 <zveda> do you guys worry about it ?
 699 2012-08-15 15:51:45 <helo> tps reports?
 700 2012-08-15 15:51:51 <zveda> yes
 701 2012-08-15 15:51:55 <sipa> transactions/second
 702 2012-08-15 15:52:13 <zveda> yes
 703 2012-08-15 15:52:22 <sipa> i think with some further optimizations we can easily deal with the load the current max block size allows
 704 2012-08-15 15:53:13 <zveda> what about beyond that
 705 2012-08-15 15:53:43 <sipa> whatever comes after that, is inevitably years ago, and we don't know what the bitcoin landscape will look like at that point
 706 2012-08-15 15:53:48 <sipa> s/ago/away/
 707 2012-08-15 15:53:54 <helo> it's kind of weird... to get people to use bitcoin, lots of vendors need to accept it. but if everybody used bitcoin for all of their transactions with vendors, there woulnd't be enough block space
 708 2012-08-15 15:54:50 <sipa> they need to accept bitcoin-the-currency; that's not necessary the same as use-payments-that-are-mapped-1:1-to-bitcoin-transactions
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 713 2012-08-15 15:57:09 * jgarzik is amused by these sites that offer a brain wallet generator... online
 714 2012-08-15 15:57:36 <jgarzik> otherwise known as "snarf your privkey, while pretending to offer a more-secure, disconnected solution"
 715 2012-08-15 15:57:56 * jgarzik definitely hopes wumpus, Diapolo and friends add some paper wallet options
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 717 2012-08-15 15:59:29 <jeremias> like brainwallet.org ?
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 719 2012-08-15 15:59:59 <wumpus> that wil be difficult unless we have determinstic wallet support, sure it's possible to print and scan 100+ private keys but...
 720 2012-08-15 16:01:00 <sipa> brainwallet.org uses browser javascript, but it wouldn't be hard to turn it into a site that sends the private keys somewhere...
 721 2012-08-15 16:01:38 <jeremias> I guess you can just download the html file and use it offline?
 722 2012-08-15 16:01:45 <wumpus> I think the difficult part will be scanning them back in, qt has decent printing support but cross platform scanning is a wholly different beast
 723 2012-08-15 16:02:27 <jeremias> I trust the creators of bitaddress.org and brainwallet.org
 724 2012-08-15 16:02:50 <wumpus> maybe, but do you also trust everyone that (inadvertently) has access to their servers?
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 727 2012-08-15 16:03:57 <sipa> i trust them too, but i prefer a solution that doesn't require me trusting whatever site operator
 728 2012-08-15 16:04:01 <jeremias> I trust they to handle the basic security stuff, and usually people don't share access to their servers
 729 2012-08-15 16:04:35 <jeremias> yeah I prefer not trusting as well, but I choose to use my time for other things than thinking all the time about minimizing trusts
 730 2012-08-15 16:04:42 <Herodes> jeremias: true, unless there exist rogue operators.
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 732 2012-08-15 16:04:46 <Herodes> Linode comes to mind.
 733 2012-08-15 16:05:00 <wumpus> basic security stuff might not be enough, remember that even linode got hacked for bitcoins
 734 2012-08-15 16:05:01 <jeremias> people lose money on bitcoinica and stuff
 735 2012-08-15 16:05:25 <Herodes> that's an insider job.
 736 2012-08-15 16:07:05 <wumpus> in the scheme of things, inside or outside job doesn't really matter, somehow someone gains access to the server and poof are your coins
 737 2012-08-15 16:07:37 <wumpus> sure of course it's a small issue if you use it only for a few coins for fun...
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 739 2012-08-15 16:08:04 <Herodes> wumpus: right.
 740 2012-08-15 16:10:46 <wumpus> but arguably it's indeed somewhat more effort to steal your coins than with a straight-up online wallet
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 754 2012-08-15 16:40:20 <TD> i think it's inevitable that the bitcoin community will start to demand low-trust/high-security setups from operators
 755 2012-08-15 16:40:36 <TD> there have been too many clever hacks and the financial incentives to do those hacks are too great
 756 2012-08-15 16:40:47 <TD> you basically have to assume you will get hacked, no matter what, and build your systems accordingly
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 758 2012-08-15 16:40:55 <TD> the main problem today is we lack the technology to do a good job of this
 759 2012-08-15 16:40:56 <Herodes> good point
 760 2012-08-15 16:40:58 <TD> but it will come with time
 761 2012-08-15 16:41:25 <TD> eg, supervisor systems, LaGrande style sealed/TPM-protected VMs, watching wallets, multisigs and so on
 762 2012-08-15 16:41:55 <TD> i am basically waiting for the first case in which somebody compromises an upstream dependency and manages to backdoor websites via it
 763 2012-08-15 16:42:08 <TD> anyway
 764 2012-08-15 16:42:16 <TD> time to go
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 766 2012-08-15 16:43:42 <Eliel> jgarzik: brainwallet.org and bitaddress.org work just fine if you save the html file and use them on an offline system to generate the wallet.
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 775 2012-08-15 17:00:38 <p0s> whats the reason for the bitcoin official ubuntu package still being at 0.3.24 while the bitcoin team provides its own ubuntu package? can't the maintainers of those just help the ubuntu team to get the official package up to date?
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 779 2012-08-15 17:01:36 <Herodes> p0s: ask them directly ?
 780 2012-08-15 17:01:38 <sipa> p0s: last i heard, they refuse 0.4.x because it fails unit tests on some (for bitcoin) unsupported platforms
 781 2012-08-15 17:01:50 <sipa> while 0.3.24 just didn't have unit tests...
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 784 2012-08-15 17:07:43 <justmoon> does somebody know the exact semantics of bitcoin's "sign message" feature? does it just sign the raw UTF-8 encoded string?
 785 2012-08-15 17:09:02 <justmoon> nevermind, found it: https://github.com/nanotube/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/blob/master/GPG/local/bitcoinsig.py#L146
 786 2012-08-15 17:09:31 <nanotube> justmoon: :)
 787 2012-08-15 17:09:40 <justmoon> you're the man :D
 788 2012-08-15 17:10:09 <p0s> BlueMatt: whats the reason for the bitcoin official ubuntu package still being at 0.3.24 while the bitcoin team provides its own ubuntu package? can't the maintainers of that one just help the ubuntu team to get the official package up to date?
 789 2012-08-15 17:10:16 <nanotube> justmoon: well, that code was lifted mostly-verbatim from electrum, and i got some help from joric on the compressed keys too. ;) so i don't deserve the credit.
 790 2012-08-15 17:10:17 <p0s> Herodes: done
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 793 2012-08-15 17:14:49 <justmoon> bitcoin! the beauty of at least applying your odd conventions consistently!
 794 2012-08-15 17:15:10 <sipa> http://xkcd.com/927/
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 796 2012-08-15 17:15:34 <justmoon> :D
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 802 2012-08-15 17:21:19 <sep332> i'm running a rpcminer-opencl on a single card and it's reporting 20 GH/s
 803 2012-08-15 17:21:27 <sep332> and no accepted shares. i think it's broken
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 828 2012-08-15 18:00:32 <nanotube> sipa: thanks :) i'll keep that in mind if i ever need longer messages. :
 829 2012-08-15 18:00:32 <nanotube> )
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 924 2012-08-15 20:10:48 <LuaKT> Any otc ops around?
 925 2012-08-15 20:14:36 <jgarzik> LuaKT: nanotube maybe?
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 928 2012-08-15 20:15:49 <LuaKT> I messaged him a while ago, seems afk
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 941 2012-08-15 20:52:02 <CodeLion> In the bitcoin protocol,  what is involved in incrementing extraNonce? is that done locally or does it require a server connection?
 942 2012-08-15 20:53:48 <sipa> depends which protocol you use
 943 2012-08-15 20:54:02 <sipa> getwork does not permit local changes to the coinbase
 944 2012-08-15 20:54:13 <sipa> the newer getmemorypool/getblocktemplate does
 945 2012-08-15 20:55:44 <CodeLion> hmm... I guess my question becomes... what is the simplest way to increment the extraNonce? If I understand the protocol correctly, you incremement Nonce until it equals 0xFFFFFFFF or w/e then increment extraNonce
 946 2012-08-15 20:56:29 <sipa> which protocol?
 947 2012-08-15 20:56:50 <CodeLion> not the protocol... the algorithm. Sorry I mispoke
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 949 2012-08-15 20:57:23 <sipa> when the block nonce range is exhausted, you need a new block header to work with
 950 2012-08-15 20:57:29 <CodeLion> Ah ok
 951 2012-08-15 20:57:32 <CodeLion> so then you getwork?
 952 2012-08-15 20:57:34 <sipa> how you create the new header doesn't matter
 953 2012-08-15 20:58:06 <sipa> in case of the getwork protocol, yes you do a new getwork, or if rollntime is supported by the server, you can also try incrementing the timestamp
 954 2012-08-15 20:58:26 <CodeLion> ok thanks sipa
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 975 2012-08-15 21:31:15 * jgarzik has come to dislike 'getwork' a great deal, while implementing it ;)
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 981 2012-08-15 21:45:42 <user> The Bitcoin Project will be making a major announcement in September that should contribute some stability, [Gavin] said.
 982 2012-08-15 21:46:23 <user> What will be?
 983 2012-08-15 21:46:41 jurov is now known as jurov|away
 984 2012-08-15 21:47:46 <sipa> the idea of announcing an announcement typically implies that the latter announcement will not be announced before the date specified in the former announcement :)
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 988 2012-08-15 21:49:27 <user> right
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 990 2012-08-15 21:53:05 <Diablo-D3> whats the latin motto for bitcoin?
 991 2012-08-15 21:53:28 <sipa> vires in numeris?
 992 2012-08-15 21:54:04 <Diablo-D3> hrm, is it?
 993 2012-08-15 21:54:23 <sipa> i've seen it used a few times, and it's really appropriate, imho
 994 2012-08-15 21:54:25 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 995 2012-08-15 21:54:31 <sipa> (strength in numbers)
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 998 2012-08-15 21:57:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think I just created a new one in #bitcoin
 999 2012-08-15 21:57:58 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1000 2012-08-15 21:58:05 <Diablo-D3> novus ordo saeculorum numero valebat
1001 2012-08-15 22:00:45 <jimbit_work_> sipa:   nice announcement about the details of how announcing an announcment go.
1002 2012-08-15 22:00:59 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1003 2012-08-15 22:01:07 <Diablo-D3> novus ordo saeculorum, ex numero valebat
1004 2012-08-15 22:01:16 <Diablo-D3> new order of the ages, strong in number from one
1005 2012-08-15 22:02:06 <sipa> where is the "from one" ?
1006 2012-08-15 22:02:37 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1007 2012-08-15 22:02:39 <Diablo-D3> google translate failed
1008 2012-08-15 22:03:09 <Diablo-D3> novus ordo saeculorum, ab una numero?
1009 2012-08-15 22:03:22 <sipa> what are you trying to say?
1010 2012-08-15 22:03:24 <Diablo-D3> no thats not right either
1011 2012-08-15 22:03:33 <Diablo-D3> sipa: new order of the ages, strong in number from one
1012 2012-08-15 22:03:42 <sipa> from one what?
1013 2012-08-15 22:03:44 <Diablo-D3> technically I should be doing the opposite of e pluribus unum
1014 2012-08-15 22:03:53 <Diablo-D3> (out of many, one)
1015 2012-08-15 22:04:32 phantomcircuit has joined
1016 2012-08-15 22:05:14 <sipa> it won't sound nearly as good as a common old latin proverb, used in a new context :)
1017 2012-08-15 22:05:47 <Diablo-D3> novus ordo saeculorum, e multis?
1018 2012-08-15 22:06:06 <Diablo-D3> new order of the ages from many
1019 2012-08-15 22:06:08 <sipa> new order of the ages, out of many?
1020 2012-08-15 22:06:14 <sipa> i don't get...
1021 2012-08-15 22:06:17 <sipa> *it
1022 2012-08-15 22:06:33 <Diablo-D3> well, it somehow mutated into "new order of the ages produced out of many"
1023 2012-08-15 22:07:00 <sipa> i still don't get what you're trying to say with it
1024 2012-08-15 22:07:32 <Diablo-D3> sipa: okay, so
1025 2012-08-15 22:07:36 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin IS a new order of the ages
1026 2012-08-15 22:08:11 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1027 2012-08-15 22:08:28 <sipa> i doubt that, but for publicity purposes, i'm willing to accept it :)
1028 2012-08-15 22:08:37 <sipa> still, what does the "out of many" mean
1029 2012-08-15 22:08:38 OneFixt has joined
1030 2012-08-15 22:08:55 <Diablo-D3> well, bitcoin is many, and has come out of one
1031 2012-08-15 22:09:27 <sipa> k
1032 2012-08-15 22:09:36 <Diablo-D3> but maybe thats wrong, maybe the new world order should come out of many
1033 2012-08-15 22:09:43 <Diablo-D3> since our motto is strength in numbers
1034 2012-08-15 22:11:41 <Diablo-D3> "qui multis saeculis nova" = "that for many, new"
1035 2012-08-15 22:13:38 <Diablo-D3> "novus ordo saeculorum natus ex pluribus" = "new world order born from many"
1036 2012-08-15 22:14:09 graingert has joined
1037 2012-08-15 22:15:25 <Diablo-D3> "novus ordo saeculorum ex multis" = "new world order of many"
1038 2012-08-15 22:15:35 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1042 2012-08-15 22:16:25 <Diablo-D3> "novam plurium saeculorum"
1043 2012-08-15 22:16:29 <Diablo-D3> oh my
1044 2012-08-15 22:16:35 <Diablo-D3> "new and evermore"
1045 2012-08-15 22:17:10 cande has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1048 2012-08-15 22:19:44 <jimbit_work_> lol, what do you have  latin thesoaurus
1049 2012-08-15 22:20:05 <Diablo-D3> no
1050 2012-08-15 22:20:16 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think I like what I just produced
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1055 2012-08-15 22:26:08 <Diablo-D3> "novus ordo saeculorum a numia" = "new world order of the coin"
1056 2012-08-15 22:27:38 <weex> how about just novus ordo numia?
1057 2012-08-15 22:27:49 <Diablo-D3> new order of the coin?
1058 2012-08-15 22:28:03 <weex> sorry meant new world coin
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1060 2012-08-15 22:28:31 <Diablo-D3> mundus numia
1061 2012-08-15 22:28:53 <Diablo-D3> wait thats not right
1062 2012-08-15 22:29:25 <Diablo-D3> numia novi mundi?
1063 2012-08-15 22:29:36 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1064 2012-08-15 22:29:44 <Diablo-D3> new coin of the world
1065 2012-08-15 22:29:58 <sipa> what does 'numia' mean?
1066 2012-08-15 22:30:09 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1067 2012-08-15 22:30:17 <Diablo-D3> coin, money
1068 2012-08-15 22:30:35 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1069 2012-08-15 22:30:39 <sipa> pecunia, denarium
1070 2012-08-15 22:30:57 <Diablo-D3> numia is the root word for numismatics
1071 2012-08-15 22:31:09 <weex> smackerus
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1073 2012-08-15 22:31:39 <sipa> First attested in English 1829, the word numismatics comes from the adjective numismatic, meaning "of coins", borrowed 1792 from French numismatiques, which derives from Late Latin numismatis, genitive of numisma, a variant of nomisma meaning "coin"
1074 2012-08-15 22:32:10 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
1075 2012-08-15 22:32:13 <sipa> so "new coin of the world" would be 'numisma mundi'
1076 2012-08-15 22:32:36 <Diablo-D3> sipa: no
1077 2012-08-15 22:32:38 moop has joined
1078 2012-08-15 22:33:24 <sipa> why not?
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1080 2012-08-15 22:38:34 <Diablo-D3> nomisma is money
1081 2012-08-15 22:38:36 <Diablo-D3> not coin
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1083 2012-08-15 22:39:24 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: good thing getwork is mostly dead? :
1084 2012-08-15 22:39:26 <Luke-Jr> :p
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1086 2012-08-15 22:40:10 <sipa> Diablo-D3: then point me to a source for the word 'numia'
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1088 2012-08-15 22:40:36 <sipa> i don't know it, and it may well be correct, but at least tell me where you got it
1089 2012-08-15 22:40:44 <Diablo-D3> sipa: numia is not the normal form of it
1090 2012-08-15 22:41:03 <sipa> so?
1091 2012-08-15 22:41:15 <sipa> you must have gotten it somewhere?
1092 2012-08-15 22:41:16 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure what the normal form is
1093 2012-08-15 22:41:35 <Luke-Jr> ask a priest
1094 2012-08-15 22:41:36 <Luke-Jr> :p
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1096 2012-08-15 22:42:05 <sipa> google transate translates nomisma as coin
1097 2012-08-15 22:42:13 <sipa> and numisma as medal
1098 2012-08-15 22:42:22 <sipa> and pecunia as money
1099 2012-08-15 22:42:48 <sipa> and "nomisma mundi" as "coin of the world"
1100 2012-08-15 22:43:13 <Diablo-D3> sipa: there is exonumia
1101 2012-08-15 22:43:24 <Diablo-D3> which is non-money numismatic items
1102 2012-08-15 22:43:37 <sipa> The noun exonumia is derived from two classical roots: exo, meaning "out-of" in Greek, and nummus, meaning "coin" in Latin
1103 2012-08-15 22:43:42 <Diablo-D3> ahh, the normal form is nummus
1104 2012-08-15 22:43:43 <sipa> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonumia
1105 2012-08-15 22:44:16 <sipa> translate.google.com says: "nummus mondi" -> "cent of the world"
1106 2012-08-15 22:45:05 <Diablo-D3> nummus novi mundi lol
1107 2012-08-15 22:45:08 <Diablo-D3> cash is the new world
1108 2012-08-15 22:45:09 <Diablo-D3> lololol
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1111 2012-08-15 22:46:21 <Diablo-D3> nummo novi mundi
1112 2012-08-15 22:46:25 <Diablo-D3> coin of the new world
1113 2012-08-15 22:47:47 <Diablo-D3> nomisma novum ordinem saeculorum
1114 2012-08-15 22:47:52 <Diablo-D3> coin of the new world order
1115 2012-08-15 22:48:14 moop has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1116 2012-08-15 22:48:31 <sipa> why an ablative?
1117 2012-08-15 22:49:50 <Diablo-D3> hrm?
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1119 2012-08-15 22:50:25 <sipa> why the ablative 'nummo' instead of just the root nummus?
1120 2012-08-15 22:50:33 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1121 2012-08-15 22:50:43 <Diablo-D3> dunno, google translate says something else for nummus
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1123 2012-08-15 22:51:32 <sipa> it's still correct
1124 2012-08-15 22:52:03 <sipa> but it's not a full sentence, so it can be hard to translate
1125 2012-08-15 22:52:06 <BlueMatt> p0s: the debian/ubuntu teams are always behind on versions of everything (that is, after all, their policy)...new releases are getting more up-to-date releases (I believe 12.04 has some 0.6-based bitcoin, as will the next debian)
1126 2012-08-15 22:52:10 <BlueMatt> p0s: I provide a more up to date package because having a constantly up-to-date package is against debian policy
1127 2012-08-15 22:52:19 <BlueMatt> oops, not even online anymore...
1128 2012-08-15 22:52:39 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell p0s I provide a more up to date package because having a constantly up-to-date package is against debian policy
1129 2012-08-15 22:52:39 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1130 2012-08-15 22:52:49 <Diablo-D3> OH FUCK
1131 2012-08-15 22:52:56 <Diablo-D3> "fortis saeculorum novam per numeros"
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1134 2012-08-15 22:53:29 <Diablo-D3> "a new order of the ages through strong numbers" -> that -> "brave new world by the numbers"
1135 2012-08-15 22:54:17 <Diablo-D3> wtf did I do
1136 2012-08-15 22:54:36 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: hopefully Debian/Ubuntu will at least pull stable backports now that they're on 0.6
1137 2012-08-15 22:54:55 TAiS46 has joined
1138 2012-08-15 22:55:10 <TAiS46> hey, dose someone use the mtgox api? i have one question
1139 2012-08-15 22:55:16 [\\\] has joined
1140 2012-08-15 22:55:18 <Luke-Jr> TAiS46: #mtgox
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1144 2012-08-15 22:58:00 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: that would be nice...
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1147 2012-08-15 23:00:06 <Diablo-D3> fortis numeros novum pecuniam -> strong numbers for a new currency
1148 2012-08-15 23:00:43 <BlueMatt> do we need a latin motto?
1149 2012-08-15 23:01:21 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: no
1150 2012-08-15 23:01:23 <Diablo-D3> this is for something else
1151 2012-08-15 23:01:35 <Diablo-D3> and we already ave one
1152 2012-08-15 23:01:38 <BlueMatt> oh, guess I should read scrollback more carefully
1153 2012-08-15 23:01:50 <Diablo-D3> vires in numero? something like that
1154 2012-08-15 23:01:56 <BlueMatt> wait, we do?
1155 2012-08-15 23:02:12 <Diablo-D3> vires in numeris
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1157 2012-08-15 23:02:32 <BlueMatt> when did this happen?
1158 2012-08-15 23:02:42 <Diablo-D3> dunno, Ive seen it on all the artwork
1159 2012-08-15 23:03:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: it's on casascius' physical bitcoins for example
1160 2012-08-15 23:03:29 <sipa> (and i like it :p)
1161 2012-08-15 23:03:32 <BlueMatt> ah, well...guess I need to pay more attention to that too
1162 2012-08-15 23:03:39 <Diablo-D3> novam vim numeri saeculi: number of the new world
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1167 2012-08-15 23:09:56 <Diablo-D3> nummi novi ordinem saeculorum -> money for the new world order
1168 2012-08-15 23:10:37 <sipa> #bitcoin-latin ?
1169 2012-08-15 23:10:49 <Diablo-D3> meh
1170 2012-08-15 23:11:02 <Diablo-D3> sipa: Im trying to create a title for a blog entry that Ill never get around to writing
1171 2012-08-15 23:11:31 <sipa> i think it's quite pointless to come up with a cool-sounding latin phrase if you don't understand it yourself
1172 2012-08-15 23:11:47 <Diablo-D3> latin gets you traffic
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1176 2012-08-15 23:15:16 <Diablo-D3> pecunia novus ordo saeculorum
1177 2012-08-15 23:15:19 <Diablo-D3> money for a new order of ages
1178 2012-08-15 23:16:09 <sipa> ok, how do you with C fopen(): create if it doesn't exist, open for read/write, and position at begin of file
1179 2012-08-15 23:16:34 <Diablo-D3> w+?
1180 2012-08-15 23:16:39 <sipa> that truncates
1181 2012-08-15 23:16:56 <sipa> and r+ doesn't create
1182 2012-08-15 23:17:05 <sipa> and a/a+ position at end of file
1183 2012-08-15 23:17:45 <Diablo-D3> a then seek to the start?
1184 2012-08-15 23:18:00 <Diablo-D3> er a+ then seek
1185 2012-08-15 23:18:45 <sipa> a+ seems to have very strange semantics (the manual says that read pointer is set to the beginning of the file, but the write pointer to the end?_
1186 2012-08-15 23:18:57 <Diablo-D3> sipa: ooh
1187 2012-08-15 23:18:59 <sipa> i don't get it, i must be missing something
1188 2012-08-15 23:19:11 <Diablo-D3>  The  fdopen()  function  associates  a  stream  with  the existing file
1189 2012-08-15 23:19:11 <Diablo-D3>        descriptor, fd.
1190 2012-08-15 23:19:15 <sipa> this seems to me to be the most common way of opening a binary file
1191 2012-08-15 23:19:17 <Diablo-D3> Modes "w" or "w+" do not cause truncation of the  file.
1192 2012-08-15 23:19:38 <sipa> when using fdopen, yes
1193 2012-08-15 23:19:48 <sipa> but want to open a file, not copy a file descriptor
1194 2012-08-15 23:20:16 <Diablo-D3> open and open again?
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1196 2012-08-15 23:21:26 <sipa> aha!
1197 2012-08-15 23:21:28 <sipa> if ((f = fopen(filename, "rb+") == 0) f = fopen(filename, "wb+");
1198 2012-08-15 23:23:14 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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1201 2012-08-15 23:30:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: fseek? :p
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1205 2012-08-15 23:32:34 <sipa> Luke-Jr: of course, i'm using fseek to get to the place i need, but i don't understand why i must either 1) use open() directly, 2) do two calls to fopen, or 3) cause a pointless seek to the end of the file by opening in 'a+'
1206 2012-08-15 23:32:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is there actually a cost to seeking?
1207 2012-08-15 23:33:08 <sipa> probably not, but it feels stupid
1208 2012-08-15 23:33:27 <Luke-Jr> "open for read+write, position at beginning, don't truncate" is a very odd combo IMO
1209 2012-08-15 23:33:58 <sipa> how would you open a binary file in which you're going to make changes?
1210 2012-08-15 23:34:49 <Luke-Jr> a+
1211 2012-08-15 23:37:32 <sipa> what if there is no reason to assume the first write will be at the end?
1212 2012-08-15 23:37:45 <Luke-Jr> still a+ :p
1213 2012-08-15 23:38:15 <Luke-Jr> afaik, it's just a matter of newstruct->pos = do_append ? endoffilepos : 0;
1214 2012-08-15 23:41:56 <sipa> i still don't see why not expecting to be placed at the end of the file is such an odd wish
1215 2012-08-15 23:42:12 <sipa> anyway </rant>
1216 2012-08-15 23:43:06 <Luke-Jr> shoulda said something before C11 was finalized
1217 2012-08-15 23:43:13 <Luke-Jr> now you have to wait 10 more years
1218 2012-08-15 23:43:14 <Luke-Jr> :p
1219 2012-08-15 23:47:02 <phantomcircuit> ,lol
1220 2012-08-15 23:47:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, time between c++ releases is clearly exponential
1221 2012-08-15 23:47:21 <phantomcircuit> s/10/100/
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