1 2012-08-17 00:00:04 ultrixx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2 2012-08-17 00:02:22 <sipa> the second-most-expensive thing is the database updates, and you can't avoid those
3 2012-08-17 00:03:00 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4 2012-08-17 00:03:53 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
5 2012-08-17 00:03:57 Joric has quit ()
6 2012-08-17 00:03:58 <sipa> anyway, the key to be able to do it in several iterations, is fetching the relevant transactions in a cache first, and then processing them until you have a list of database updates
7 2012-08-17 00:04:15 <sipa> and then write them back at once
8 2012-08-17 00:04:57 <amiller> the most difficult part in my opinion is defining the rules for balancing, since there are many potential ways to do it and one of them must be authoritatively selected
9 2012-08-17 00:07:55 <sipa> ?i think if i'd implement it, it'd be like this: have a map (int -> node), that just keeps tree nodes indexed by a global (but local to the database) counter
10 2012-08-17 00:08:42 <sipa> transactions get in addition to their coins info, extra field (id_parent, am_i_left_or_right_child)
11 2012-08-17 00:09:53 <sipa> then the nodes themselves get a (id_parent, bitsequence_skipped, am_i_left_or_right_child, hash_left_child, hash_right_child)
12 2012-08-17 00:10:13 <sipa> and when tx's get updated, you can follow the parent pointers to find nodes to update
13 2012-08-17 00:10:23 <sipa> (binary patricia tree)
14 2012-08-17 00:11:07 <sipa> wait, you don't even need to left or right child info; that's just always the last bit of their (implied) hash
15 2012-08-17 00:11:31 <sipa> s/hash/key (= truncated hash)/
16 2012-08-17 00:13:27 <amiller> interesting
17 2012-08-17 00:13:37 <amiller> balancing operations would only affect a few bits in each affected node
18 2012-08-17 00:14:04 <amiller> i think you've just described an in-memory patricia trie implementation that eventually results in updates to a balanced hash tree
19 2012-08-17 00:14:21 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
20 2012-08-17 00:14:31 <sipa> as an optimization, you could try storing a serialized subtree per database entry, instead of a single node
21 2012-08-17 00:14:31 <sipa> but that becomes a lot more complex
22 2012-08-17 00:14:57 pecket has joined
23 2012-08-17 00:16:06 <sipa> actually, the nodes just need (id_parent, number_of_bits_to_drop, hash_left, hash_right)
24 2012-08-17 00:16:18 <jgarzik> ah hah.
25 2012-08-17 00:16:22 <sipa> wait, maybe you need more
26 2012-08-17 00:16:25 * jgarzik finds python's compiler.ast module.
27 2012-08-17 00:17:59 <sipa> amiller: to delete an entry, you need to update the other branch, but i suppose you could delay that until that other branch is effective accessed, while maintaining a deterministic hash
28 2012-08-17 00:18:36 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
29 2012-08-17 00:21:20 MC-Eeepc has joined
30 2012-08-17 00:22:16 minimoose has joined
31 2012-08-17 00:22:48 caedes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
32 2012-08-17 00:23:17 caedes has joined
33 2012-08-17 00:23:45 minimoose_ has joined
34 2012-08-17 00:24:51 `2Fast2BCn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
35 2012-08-17 00:26:05 rdponticelli_ has joined
36 2012-08-17 00:26:36 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
37 2012-08-17 00:26:36 janfrech has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
38 2012-08-17 00:26:44 janfrech has joined
39 2012-08-17 00:27:11 minimoose has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
40 2012-08-17 00:27:11 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
41 2012-08-17 00:27:12 minimoose_ is now known as minimoose
42 2012-08-17 00:27:31 DaQatz has joined
43 2012-08-17 00:27:42 `2Fast2BCn has joined
44 2012-08-17 00:31:25 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
45 2012-08-17 00:32:51 BTCTrader has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
46 2012-08-17 00:33:06 BTCTrader has joined
47 2012-08-17 00:34:11 BLZbubba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
48 2012-08-17 00:36:06 sgornick_ has joined
49 2012-08-17 00:36:13 AlexWaters1 has joined
50 2012-08-17 00:36:25 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
51 2012-08-17 00:36:33 ahbritto__ has joined
52 2012-08-17 00:36:38 graingert has joined
53 2012-08-17 00:37:05 AlexWaters has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
54 2012-08-17 00:37:05 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
55 2012-08-17 00:37:06 ahbritto has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
56 2012-08-17 00:37:09 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
57 2012-08-17 00:38:35 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
58 2012-08-17 00:39:16 vegard has joined
59 2012-08-17 00:39:39 vegard is now known as Guest66761
60 2012-08-17 00:40:06 BLZbubba has joined
61 2012-08-17 00:41:23 one_zero has joined
62 2012-08-17 00:42:41 dstien_ has joined
63 2012-08-17 00:43:36 sirk3901 has joined
64 2012-08-17 00:44:41 AlexWaters1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
65 2012-08-17 00:44:45 dstien has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
66 2012-08-17 00:44:46 sirk390 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
67 2012-08-17 00:44:47 bdcs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
68 2012-08-17 00:44:55 bdcs has joined
69 2012-08-17 00:46:02 fpgaminer has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
70 2012-08-17 00:46:10 fpgaminer has joined
71 2012-08-17 00:46:33 Guest82021 has quit (Changing host)
72 2012-08-17 00:46:33 Guest82021 has joined
73 2012-08-17 00:47:17 Guest82021 is now known as MrTiggr
74 2012-08-17 00:47:50 bdcs is now known as Guest74706
75 2012-08-17 00:48:34 RainbowDashh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
76 2012-08-17 00:56:38 bitcoinbulletin has joined
77 2012-08-17 01:02:14 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
78 2012-08-17 01:02:58 Apexseals has joined
79 2012-08-17 01:10:31 vampireb_ has joined
80 2012-08-17 01:14:06 vampireb_ has quit (Client Quit)
81 2012-08-17 01:14:56 vampireb_ has joined
82 2012-08-17 01:16:54 phantomcircuit has joined
83 2012-08-17 01:18:44 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
84 2012-08-17 01:20:00 vampireb_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
85 2012-08-17 01:20:25 graingert has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
86 2012-08-17 01:20:41 vampireb_ has joined
87 2012-08-17 01:22:01 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
88 2012-08-17 01:22:49 vampireb_ is now known as vampireb
89 2012-08-17 01:27:43 luncht1me has joined
90 2012-08-17 01:29:21 meLon has joined
91 2012-08-17 01:29:22 meLon has quit (Changing host)
92 2012-08-17 01:29:22 meLon has joined
93 2012-08-17 01:29:43 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
94 2012-08-17 01:42:55 minimoose has joined
95 2012-08-17 01:45:50 vampireb has quit (Quit: leaving)
96 2012-08-17 01:53:55 Joric has joined
97 2012-08-17 01:54:21 vampireb has joined
98 2012-08-17 01:58:41 vampireb has quit (Client Quit)
99 2012-08-17 01:59:40 vampireb has joined
100 2012-08-17 02:01:52 user__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
101 2012-08-17 02:09:51 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
102 2012-08-17 02:09:52 rcorreia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
103 2012-08-17 02:10:24 meLon has joined
104 2012-08-17 02:10:29 meLon has quit (Changing host)
105 2012-08-17 02:10:29 meLon has joined
106 2012-08-17 02:11:16 rcorreia has joined
107 2012-08-17 02:12:09 BTCTrader_ has joined
108 2012-08-17 02:12:09 BTCTrader_ has quit (Changing host)
109 2012-08-17 02:12:09 BTCTrader_ has joined
110 2012-08-17 02:14:22 BTCTrader has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
111 2012-08-17 02:14:22 BTCTrader_ is now known as BTCTrader
112 2012-08-17 02:19:46 eoss has joined
113 2012-08-17 02:19:46 eoss has quit (Changing host)
114 2012-08-17 02:19:46 eoss has joined
115 2012-08-17 02:31:16 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
116 2012-08-17 02:34:46 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
117 2012-08-17 02:38:38 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
118 2012-08-17 02:47:25 Gladamas has joined
119 2012-08-17 02:47:45 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
120 2012-08-17 02:48:10 osmosis has joined
121 2012-08-17 02:51:12 unclemantis has joined
122 2012-08-17 02:52:27 root2 has joined
123 2012-08-17 02:54:43 da2ce7_d is now known as da2ce7
124 2012-08-17 03:03:26 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
125 2012-08-17 03:07:39 Z0rZ0rZ0r__ has joined
126 2012-08-17 03:07:53 paul0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
127 2012-08-17 03:08:44 paul0 has joined
128 2012-08-17 03:09:31 phantomcircuit has joined
129 2012-08-17 03:09:48 Z0rZ0rZ0r_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
130 2012-08-17 03:15:38 onefourone has joined
131 2012-08-17 03:15:57 Gladamas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
132 2012-08-17 03:18:57 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
133 2012-08-17 03:19:25 <Perlboy> what's the easiest way to calculate transaction fee size without submitting a transaction?
134 2012-08-17 03:20:02 <Perlboy> i note it comes to the transaction size itself do I just length( my hash and add a bit?
135 2012-08-17 03:20:09 <Perlboy> looking for something a bit more specific
136 2012-08-17 03:20:21 <gmaxwell> It's not possible to do that.
137 2012-08-17 03:20:32 <gmaxwell> You don't know the transaction size without knowing the inputs used.
138 2012-08-17 03:20:46 <gmaxwell> The inputs used aren't known until it actually builds the transaction.
139 2012-08-17 03:20:47 <Perlboy> i know all the inputs except the ones derived from bitcoind/p2p itself.
140 2012-08-17 03:21:07 <Perlboy> ie. ones that occur on distribution.
141 2012-08-17 03:21:21 <gmaxwell> By "inputs" I mean the specific transactions, not the numbers you are plugging in.
142 2012-08-17 03:21:41 <Perlboy> ah the tx id?
143 2012-08-17 03:21:49 <Perlboy> or rather, when the tx id gets generated?
144 2012-08-17 03:21:57 <Perlboy> any ideas of a 'safe bet' ?
145 2012-08-17 03:22:18 <Perlboy> can i just do like 0.1% and block tx with calculated fee lower than 0.005 ?
146 2012-08-17 03:22:39 <gmaxwell> The default fee is zero, unless the transaction is low priority, in which case it's 0.0005 BTC/KB, and a maximum of 0.05 BTC (because it won't make more than a 100 KB transaction)
147 2012-08-17 03:22:39 <Perlboy> oops tx calculated value.
148 2012-08-17 03:22:56 <gmaxwell> The value of the transaction has very little to do with it.
149 2012-08-17 03:23:19 <Perlboy> hmm, i don't fully understand how a transaction is generated
150 2012-08-17 03:23:25 <Perlboy> is it used as inputs to the miners? i assume so...
151 2012-08-17 03:23:27 <gmaxwell> (The value of the payments you've been recieving, on the other hand are quite important)
152 2012-08-17 03:23:56 <gmaxwell> There is a page on the wiki about transaction fees, its at least somewhat informative; though IIRC some parts are a bit outdated.
153 2012-08-17 03:24:01 <Perlboy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
154 2012-08-17 03:24:07 <Perlboy> i've been reading that.
155 2012-08-17 03:24:22 <gmaxwell> What are you actually trying to accomplish/resolve?
156 2012-08-17 03:24:47 <Perlboy> pay appropriate fees without landing myself in a hole as I transfer funds around.
157 2012-08-17 03:25:09 <gmaxwell> The client won't let you send a transaction which won't work for sure.
158 2012-08-17 03:25:25 <Perlboy> yeah but once it's submitted, i pay whatever fee it calculates
159 2012-08-17 03:25:28 <gmaxwell> (well for sureâ eventually at least; I mean it won't send a transaction which is sure to fail)
160 2012-08-17 03:25:48 <Luke-Jr> Perlboy: I had a pullreq to allow you to micromanage that, but jgarzik closed it -.-
161 2012-08-17 03:25:50 <Perlboy> i'm comfortable with that but submission without revocation means I need to make sure i don't lose fees in the transaction itself.
162 2012-08-17 03:25:54 <gmaxwell> The fee it calculatesâ when you have your fees set to zeroâ are the minimum fees that particular transaction will be forwaded with.
163 2012-08-17 03:26:38 <Luke-Jr> Perlboy: also, it's important to realize that if you have a shared wallet, it isn't fair to simply pass the fees on to the users directly
164 2012-08-17 03:26:46 <gmaxwell> 'don't lose fees in the transaction itself', could you clarify it?
165 2012-08-17 03:26:46 <Luke-Jr> since it's possible for them to interact
166 2012-08-17 03:27:05 <Perlboy> luke-jr: i know, and that's why to the user it's my fixed % fee
167 2012-08-17 03:27:17 <Perlboy> just gotta make sure that i don't bleed through transaction charges
168 2012-08-17 03:27:29 <Luke-Jr> Perlboy: I wouldn't do a %
169 2012-08-17 03:27:48 <gmaxwell> If you're worried about losing fundsâ then as I said above the most you could ever pay is 0.05 BTC. Though _normally_ they're much smaller if not zero, unless you're getting lots of very tiny inputs you need to spend.
170 2012-08-17 03:27:58 <Perlboy> luke-jr: with no way of calculating how much bitcoin net is going to bill me i'm kinda forced to
171 2012-08-17 03:28:07 <gmaxwell> Thats BS.
172 2012-08-17 03:28:10 <Luke-Jr> Perlboy: what others have done, is do a flat per transaction fee well enoguh to cover things, then "rebate" the difference overall every month
173 2012-08-17 03:28:36 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: Considering that the fees as most certantly not a percentage in _any_ case, and percentage you charge is goin to be out of wack.
174 2012-08-17 03:29:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, the real problem is that the ones creating the highest fees will be the lowest %-wise
175 2012-08-17 03:29:18 <Perlboy> luke-jr: like who? flexcoin is 0.01 or 0.5% whatever larger
176 2012-08-17 03:29:27 <Luke-Jr> Perlboy: I forget who
177 2012-08-17 03:29:33 <Perlboy> gmaxwell: well there's other elements too
178 2012-08-17 03:29:33 <gmaxwell> that has shit to do with transaction fees.
179 2012-08-17 03:29:55 <gmaxwell> Sure, if you're going to earn income from taking a cut thats fineâ but don't claim that bitcoin is making you do it.
180 2012-08-17 03:29:57 <Luke-Jr> you could probably run your rebates weekly too if you want
181 2012-08-17 03:30:21 <Perlboy> gmaxwell: i'm not claiming that. what so ever.
182 2012-08-17 03:30:30 <gmaxwell> The bitparking exchange charges 0.001 per withdraw.
183 2012-08-17 03:30:30 onefourone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
184 2012-08-17 03:30:33 <doublec> gmaxwell: you're being a bit unfair. When a site is sending transactions it's hard to cater for fees.
185 2012-08-17 03:30:38 <Perlboy> but i can't optimise it without knowing the likely charge i'm looking to pay.
186 2012-08-17 03:30:41 root2 has joined
187 2012-08-17 03:30:52 <doublec> gmaxwell: at least, I've not seen a good solution.
188 2012-08-17 03:30:55 <Perlboy> after all, unlike some, i'm actually willing to factor in network fees.
189 2012-08-17 03:31:01 <Luke-Jr> Perlboy: if you just want to cover transaction fees, charge a flat 0.05 BTC per transaction, then total it up and rebate the difference every week. if you find you're constantly rebating at least <x> per tx, reduce your flat fee if you feel like it
190 2012-08-17 03:31:02 <gmaxwell> doublec: you have a good solution.
191 2012-08-17 03:31:16 <doublec> gmaxwell: yeah but people complain about that too :)
192 2012-08-17 03:31:25 <gmaxwell> doublec: send them to me, I'll yell at them. :)
193 2012-08-17 03:31:28 <doublec> hehe
194 2012-08-17 03:33:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: thats high, and rebates are a pita.
195 2012-08-17 03:33:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe, but it gives him a guarantee he won't get ripped off
196 2012-08-17 03:34:08 <gmaxwell> I mean,.... if someone manages to rip you off with 0.05 BTC transactions because they figured out how to make you consistently genrate them; come to me and I'll pay for your losses. (hah within reason!)
197 2012-08-17 03:34:28 <gmaxwell> and then we can fix the software so it's not easy to trigger idiotic behavior like that accidentally. :)
198 2012-08-17 03:34:54 <gmaxwell> (it shouldn't be possible to maliciously cause you to pay high fees without paying even higher fees yourself)
199 2012-08-17 03:36:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: at least one mining pool is doing stupid stuff like that
200 2012-08-17 03:36:41 <Luke-Jr> someone was complaining about a week ago, about some stupidly high fee
201 2012-08-17 03:36:50 <Luke-Jr> because his pool paid him in cBTC or something
202 2012-08-17 03:36:50 unclemantis has quit ()
203 2012-08-17 03:37:35 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
204 2012-08-17 03:37:37 <gmaxwell> bleh.
205 2012-08-17 03:37:38 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
206 2012-08-17 03:37:45 [7] has joined
207 2012-08-17 03:37:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we do need to improve the coin selection logic.
208 2012-08-17 03:38:06 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
209 2012-08-17 03:38:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I did the part that was important to me in early 2011. your turn :P
210 2012-08-17 03:39:21 <Luke-Jr> actually, coin selection confuses me
211 2012-08-17 03:39:40 <gmaxwell> I was thinking it might be fun to have a public contest.
212 2012-08-17 03:39:47 <Luke-Jr> it makes me think "there should be a way to find an optimal solution without bruteforcing!", but I don't know how
213 2012-08-17 03:40:07 <Luke-Jr> maybe I'm just expecting too much from computers; I hear FPGA compiling requires bruteforcing optimizations
214 2012-08-17 03:40:18 <Luke-Jr> that sounds like a good idea
215 2012-08-17 03:40:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hah. Well, it's a combintoric problem with a non-linear objective (if you include fees)... this is generall hard.
216 2012-08-17 03:41:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I can only imagine what it will be like to do it with copumpkin's group-transaction idea integratedâ¦
217 2012-08-17 03:41:40 <gmaxwell> so my thought was to use a powerful solver for this kind of problem to find (near) optimal solutions.. then have some kind of contest where the mergable code that performs closest to the external solver wins.
218 2012-08-17 03:41:41 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
219 2012-08-17 03:41:41 <Luke-Jr> or maybe that would make it easier since it gives a bigger input selection
220 2012-08-17 03:41:44 <copumpkin> i had an idea?
221 2012-08-17 03:41:46 <Joric> damnit, justmoon just got 10 btc for js signing/verifying code, i wrote it a week ago and didn't get shit should read forum more often
222 2012-08-17 03:41:53 user has joined
223 2012-08-17 03:41:57 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: I thought gmaxwell said it was yours; did I misattribute?
224 2012-08-17 03:42:00 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that was coinginuity.
225 2012-08-17 03:42:02 <Luke-Jr> ah
226 2012-08-17 03:42:04 <Luke-Jr> oops
227 2012-08-17 03:42:11 <Joric> maybe it's worth to create a special bounty section on bitcointalk
228 2012-08-17 03:42:16 <gmaxwell> In any case, solvers for this stuff use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_and_cut
229 2012-08-17 03:42:46 sirk3901 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
230 2012-08-17 03:43:14 <gmaxwell> and I wrote an AMPL representation of the problem (well, a problemâ you can select coins optimizing for multiple things), that can be fed to existing solver tools: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/coin_selection
231 2012-08-17 03:43:29 <Luke-Jr> nice
232 2012-08-17 03:44:05 <copumpkin> Luke-Jr: I knew it couldn't have been me cause I don't know anything
233 2012-08-17 03:44:24 <copumpkin> well, except for the fact that I knew it wasn't me
234 2012-08-17 03:44:49 <Luke-Jr> lol
235 2012-08-17 03:44:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: generally more inputs makes finding a good solution easier, but an exact solution impossible.
236 2012-08-17 03:45:07 <gmaxwell> (exactly optimal I mean)
237 2012-08-17 03:45:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what if the peers don't want to share info about their inputs?
238 2012-08-17 03:47:02 <gmaxwell> they could use something like the a zero knoweldge proof for the Millionaires' problem to figure out if they'd like each others inputs before disclosing them I guess.
239 2012-08-17 03:47:25 <Luke-Jr> hm
240 2012-08-17 03:47:27 <gmaxwell> hm. I'd have to think about how that would work.
241 2012-08-17 03:48:42 <gmaxwell> that would be a fun optimization problem, you need inputs totatling at least each output from each set.
242 2012-08-17 03:49:22 <doublec> volunteer to host icfp next year and use that as your task :)
243 2012-08-17 03:49:34 <Luke-Jr> lol
244 2012-08-17 03:49:43 <doublec> they once had an "optimize this xml into the smallest possible form" task
245 2012-08-17 03:49:58 <doublec> or something like that
246 2012-08-17 03:50:46 <Luke-Jr> anyone know: can uint64_t be made to be just as fast as uint32_t on 32-bit x86 today?
247 2012-08-17 03:51:15 <doublec> http://cristal.inria.fr/ICFP2001/prog-contest/task.html
248 2012-08-17 03:51:17 <gmaxwell> 64bit is actually quite fast on 32 bit systems too, because there is hardware support for the carries.
249 2012-08-17 04:05:54 leotreasure has joined
250 2012-08-17 04:06:37 <Joric> seems bitcoinstats.com doesn't write local logs anymore, stopped since 08-14
251 2012-08-17 04:13:16 toffoo has joined
252 2012-08-17 04:22:12 luncht1me has quit (Quit: âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ 3.3 (November '11))
253 2012-08-17 04:24:11 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
254 2012-08-17 04:25:35 user has quit (Quit: Leaving)
255 2012-08-17 04:29:59 someone42 has joined
256 2012-08-17 04:37:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think the problem with "open for read+write but position at start" is that it's impossible to tell the file size without seeking to the end first :P
257 2012-08-17 04:39:28 ivan\ has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
258 2012-08-17 04:43:04 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: wrong
259 2012-08-17 04:43:11 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: fstat
260 2012-08-17 04:43:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I mean for FILE* directly :p
261 2012-08-17 04:44:01 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: fstat(fileno(file))
262 2012-08-17 04:47:20 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
263 2012-08-17 04:56:16 felipelalli has joined
264 2012-08-17 04:56:28 <felipelalli> hi ppl!
265 2012-08-17 04:56:32 <felipelalli> i have a big problem with lib http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/
266 2012-08-17 04:56:39 <felipelalli> is here a good place to talk about it?
267 2012-08-17 04:58:49 felipelalli has quit (Client Quit)
268 2012-08-17 04:59:56 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
269 2012-08-17 05:01:58 ivan\ has joined
270 2012-08-17 05:09:48 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
271 2012-08-17 05:16:43 ArchMint has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
272 2012-08-17 05:16:56 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
273 2012-08-17 05:32:11 <Joric> blockchain.info now supports signing / verifying messages (receive money > more actions / information icon)
274 2012-08-17 05:36:01 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
275 2012-08-17 05:40:39 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
276 2012-08-17 05:42:07 <copumpkin> a cool feature on bitcoin-qt might be to have a "pregen X addresses for me and spit them out in a text box/fiel"
277 2012-08-17 05:42:16 <copumpkin> so I can give them out en masse
278 2012-08-17 05:46:02 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
279 2012-08-17 05:47:51 phantomcircuit has joined
280 2012-08-17 05:49:12 ovidiusoft has joined
281 2012-08-17 05:56:09 RazielZ has joined
282 2012-08-17 05:56:44 B0g4r7__ has joined
283 2012-08-17 06:00:36 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
284 2012-08-17 06:00:37 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
285 2012-08-17 06:06:45 root2 has quit ()
286 2012-08-17 06:08:05 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
287 2012-08-17 06:20:12 CodesInChaos has joined
288 2012-08-17 06:20:20 Gladamas has joined
289 2012-08-17 06:26:36 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
290 2012-08-17 06:31:05 inlikeflynn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
291 2012-08-17 06:32:44 inlikeflynn has joined
292 2012-08-17 06:33:42 devrandom has quit (Quit: leaving)
293 2012-08-17 06:33:43 <Perlboy> copumpkin: that's quite easy if you have the native bitcoind
294 2012-08-17 06:34:21 devrandom has joined
295 2012-08-17 06:35:20 <Perlboy> call getnewaddress 500 times and you'll have your list.
296 2012-08-17 06:35:46 Gladamas has quit (Quit: Got to go, or client issues.)
297 2012-08-17 06:50:16 gravypod has joined
298 2012-08-17 06:50:29 <gravypod> Hello
299 2012-08-17 06:50:50 <gravypod> |help
300 2012-08-17 06:50:50 <SuprTiggr> gravypod: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
301 2012-08-17 06:50:56 <gravypod> :/
302 2012-08-17 06:51:05 <gravypod> Well anyway hello
303 2012-08-17 06:52:27 CodesInChaos has joined
304 2012-08-17 06:54:35 yellowhat has joined
305 2012-08-17 06:57:41 gravypod has quit (Quit: LIKE A G....POD!!!)
306 2012-08-17 07:00:17 inlikeflynn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
307 2012-08-17 07:01:25 inlikeflynn has joined
308 2012-08-17 07:09:56 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
309 2012-08-17 07:10:23 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
310 2012-08-17 07:10:35 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
311 2012-08-17 07:10:47 sirk390 has joined
312 2012-08-17 07:12:44 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
313 2012-08-17 07:13:22 BCBot has joined
314 2012-08-17 07:15:51 chrisb__ has joined
315 2012-08-17 07:20:42 Marf has joined
316 2012-08-17 07:26:34 <usagi> Is there anyone here who can do custom modifications of bitcoind for me? I have need of some specific features which aren't in the main branch.
317 2012-08-17 07:26:53 <usagi> Not sure if it pays well enough but we could discuss it
318 2012-08-17 07:30:46 <tcatm_> What kind of modifications would that be? Maybe others have use for it, too.
319 2012-08-17 07:33:43 sgornick_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
320 2012-08-17 07:36:19 <usagi> Well I essentially need to encrypt individual private keys.
321 2012-08-17 07:36:25 <usagi> Multi wallet would be another solution,
322 2012-08-17 07:36:42 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
323 2012-08-17 07:36:47 <usagi> But a more complex one, I assume
324 2012-08-17 07:37:01 <usagi> Both of these ideas have received favor from the devs or so I hear
325 2012-08-17 07:37:18 <usagi> I've identified a way it could be done but I just don't have the skills
326 2012-08-17 07:38:00 <usagi> The use case is that an encrypted wallet is a single point of failure and goes against the spirit of having accounts.
327 2012-08-17 07:38:09 <usagi> Ineed a way to enable a customer to encrypt his account.
328 2012-08-17 07:38:44 <usagi> The wallet can still pull coins from any unencrypted key. Not all keys would be encrypted. But we can't allow someone to break in and steal the wallet.dat file because the wallet password needs to be stored in a script file
329 2012-08-17 07:41:26 paraipan has joined
330 2012-08-17 07:44:08 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
331 2012-08-17 07:46:13 <usagi> Anyways yeah tcatm I wouldn't mind if these changes eventually made it into the official bitcoind, I just want to know if I can donate money or hire someone to do it a little faster :>
332 2012-08-17 07:47:04 RainbowDashh has joined
333 2012-08-17 08:04:09 cosurgi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
334 2012-08-17 08:05:07 ThomasV has joined
335 2012-08-17 08:06:20 cosurgi has joined
336 2012-08-17 08:08:50 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
337 2012-08-17 08:11:35 m00p has joined
338 2012-08-17 08:13:49 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
339 2012-08-17 08:17:08 sgornick has joined
340 2012-08-17 08:17:19 iocor has joined
341 2012-08-17 08:17:41 curiositi has joined
342 2012-08-17 08:20:02 apex-alt has joined
343 2012-08-17 08:20:05 Guest74706 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
344 2012-08-17 08:20:06 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
345 2012-08-17 08:20:06 Guest74706 has joined
346 2012-08-17 08:21:03 <curiositi> Hi all! I have q about mining. This is what I understand from it: making a hash with 2 inputs, another hash and a nonce. The output hash must have 13 zeros at the beginning to be a proof of work. Am I right?
347 2012-08-17 08:21:51 Marf has joined
348 2012-08-17 08:22:38 <weex> curiositi: the # of zeros can change but that's the rough idea yeah
349 2012-08-17 08:24:04 <weex> you might look at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Blocks
350 2012-08-17 08:25:47 <curiositi> thank you weex, the thing I don't understand is that why is it so hard?! I mean i checked on blockchain.info and realised that the nonce is somthing like 1 billion or so.. I have an power of 160MH/s. It must take like 7 seconds to get to that point. what am I missing?!
351 2012-08-17 08:26:18 <weex> it's hard because you have a to sum up all the power from the entire network
352 2012-08-17 08:26:27 <weex> then that network should only find one solution per 10 minutes
353 2012-08-17 08:26:29 <weex> on average
354 2012-08-17 08:27:21 <weex> where is this 1 billion nonce?
355 2012-08-17 08:27:33 <curiositi> What do you mean by sum up all the power from network?
356 2012-08-17 08:27:42 <curiositi> http://blockchain.info/block-index/261219/000000000000055a729df9af5317699fa454d5d0bd2ed96a5ed5af50e07141da
357 2012-08-17 08:27:52 <curiositi> check the nonce section
358 2012-08-17 08:28:45 <weex> ahh, that's definitely not taking the other inputs into account
359 2012-08-17 08:29:17 <weex> each of which changes with time i think but definitely with the specific transactions in the block
360 2012-08-17 08:29:45 <curiositi> so what are the other inputs?
361 2012-08-17 08:30:15 <weex> the other hash, is a hash of the transaction hashes...i get fuzzy on the details there
362 2012-08-17 08:30:20 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
363 2012-08-17 08:30:44 <weex> lemme see if there's another wiki page that addresses that
364 2012-08-17 08:31:03 <curiositi> thank you :)
365 2012-08-17 08:31:05 BCBot has joined
366 2012-08-17 08:31:23 <weex> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification is the best i can find
367 2012-08-17 08:31:40 <weex> specifically https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification#Block_Headers
368 2012-08-17 08:32:39 <curiositi> thanks again, I'll read it.
369 2012-08-17 08:32:53 <lianj> curiositi: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Generation 'extraNonce'
370 2012-08-17 08:34:00 <weex> oooh extraNonce, fancy
371 2012-08-17 08:34:26 <weex> is that missing from the protocol specification or somehow already included
372 2012-08-17 08:34:30 Anduck has joined
373 2012-08-17 08:35:14 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
374 2012-08-17 08:35:29 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
375 2012-08-17 08:35:54 <curiositi> lianj: it's a place that when the original nonce gets too big they put the extra there? correct?
376 2012-08-17 08:36:05 <lianj> its not really related to the protocol specification. more like, how to write a miner and what is commonly used if you overflow your nonce field (which happens fast)
377 2012-08-17 08:36:15 <lianj> curiositi: right
378 2012-08-17 08:36:58 <lianj> "arbitrary-precision "extraNonce" number there, which increments every time the Nonce field in the block header overflows." but you could do/put whatever you want in there
379 2012-08-17 08:38:00 <curiositi> but I don't get the relation.. why is this so hard? :D
380 2012-08-17 08:38:07 <lianj> it will change the (your) coinbase transaction and thus change the merkle root and thus change the block header and then gives you another change on finding a good hash
381 2012-08-17 08:38:15 <lianj> what is so hard?
382 2012-08-17 08:39:25 <curiositi> lainj: finding a block.
383 2012-08-17 08:40:01 <curiositi> lianj: so merkle root hash is also an input?
384 2012-08-17 08:40:20 <amiller> what do you mean by hard?
385 2012-08-17 08:40:40 <amiller> how many hashes do you expect to have to compute before finding a winning block?
386 2012-08-17 08:41:03 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
387 2012-08-17 08:41:43 <curiositi> amiller: the count of the nonce we checked. for example for the last block 476661304
388 2012-08-17 08:42:07 <amiller> nonces don't need to go in order, you may pick at random or according to any algorithm you wish
389 2012-08-17 08:42:24 <amiller> it's like flipping a coin, each one has an equal chance of winning regardless of how many you've done before
390 2012-08-17 08:42:38 <amiller> the correct way to calculate the expected number of hashes is simply 2^(number of bits of zeros)
391 2012-08-17 08:43:39 <curiositi> so it's something like 2^(13*8) ?
392 2012-08-17 08:43:53 CodesInChaos has joined
393 2012-08-17 08:43:56 <amiller> it's probably 2^(13*4) since each character in a hex string is 4 bits
394 2012-08-17 08:44:17 <amiller> it looks like it should take you on average 1 year to find a block with 140MH/s
395 2012-08-17 08:45:17 <lianj> 0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff / current_target
396 2012-08-17 08:45:25 OneFixt_ has joined
397 2012-08-17 08:46:12 <curiositi> and where does this "2^(number of bits of zeros)" come from? I mean why! :D why do we have to calculate this many hashes?
398 2012-08-17 08:46:22 datagutt has joined
399 2012-08-17 08:46:45 <amiller> curiositi, i'm not totally sure which part of your question to focus on but i'll help you bisect to find it...
400 2012-08-17 08:47:00 <curiositi> lianj: this is the current number of zeros we must find? it's a lot of zeros!
401 2012-08-17 08:47:06 <amiller> the difficulty (the required number of zero bits) is adjusted to get 10 minutes on average in between blocks
402 2012-08-17 08:47:48 <weex> it's a result of there being a ton of hashing power working on the problem
403 2012-08-17 08:48:02 <weex> ~25TH/s
404 2012-08-17 08:48:14 <curiositi> amiller: thank you :)
405 2012-08-17 08:48:17 <amiller> it's set to 10 minutes because that is slow enough that it gives the network time to propagate the answers but fast enough to be tolerable
406 2012-08-17 08:48:38 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
407 2012-08-17 08:49:03 <weex> what hashrate did Satoshi start with all by his lonesome?
408 2012-08-17 08:49:17 <lianj> curiositi: not sure, but maybe this helps https://pastee.org/u6nxx
409 2012-08-17 08:49:21 <kinlo> that would be something in the kilohashes :)
410 2012-08-17 08:49:30 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
411 2012-08-17 08:49:49 <amiller> what is the prevhash field in the genesis block
412 2012-08-17 08:49:52 <amiller> is it a random string
413 2012-08-17 08:50:11 <kinlo> all 0's
414 2012-08-17 08:50:15 <amiller> i like to pretend that there's more blocks underneath that hash and it's just that no one knows the preimage so none of us can tell
415 2012-08-17 08:50:21 <amiller> oh. well that's more unlikely then
416 2012-08-17 08:50:48 <kinlo> uhmz
417 2012-08-17 08:50:50 <kinlo> or isn't it
418 2012-08-17 08:50:55 <kinlo> I assumed it was all 0's
419 2012-08-17 08:50:55 <curiositi> amiller: ok. how is this done? I mean how is it set to be 10 minutes?
420 2012-08-17 08:51:08 <kinlo> but it appears not to be?
421 2012-08-17 08:51:14 <amiller> curiositi, every 2016 blocks, the difficulty is updated
422 2012-08-17 08:51:26 <lianj> curiositi: Bitcoin.decode_compact_bits(486604799) => "00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000"
423 2012-08-17 08:51:31 <amiller> curiositi, the difficulty is updated based on the average time it took to find that many blocks
424 2012-08-17 08:51:43 <kinlo> oh, no it is. The block header is all 0's. the hash of that isn't 0 ofcourse
425 2012-08-17 08:51:45 <lianj> that was the current_target (difficulty) of the first block
426 2012-08-17 08:51:52 <weex> http://james.lab6.com/2012/01/12/bitcoin-285-bytes-that-changed-the-world/ says all 0s
427 2012-08-17 08:52:16 <kinlo> lianj: that's just the minimum diff, as far as I know, mainnet cannot go below 1
428 2012-08-17 08:54:05 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
429 2012-08-17 08:54:53 <amiller> curiositi, the average time is based on the self reported timestamps included in the blocks, and those timestamps are rejected by miners if it disagrees with their own clocks by more than a couple hours
430 2012-08-17 08:55:05 <lianj> kinlo: right, thats the minimum diff, thats also where satoshi started his first block
431 2012-08-17 08:58:13 <amiller> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L893 curiositi, this is the section of code that adjusts the difficulty
432 2012-08-17 08:58:33 <amiller> int64 nActualTimespan = pindexLast->GetBlockTime() - pindexFirst->GetBlockTime();
433 2012-08-17 08:58:56 <amiller> bnNew *= nActualTimespan / nTargetTimespan;
434 2012-08-17 08:59:23 MC-Eeepc has joined
435 2012-08-17 08:59:57 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
436 2012-08-17 09:00:10 <weex> does the initial target look like it was set from satoshi's hashrate to yield 10 min blocks from the start?
437 2012-08-17 09:00:29 copumpkin has joined
438 2012-08-17 09:01:22 <amiller> i posed an experiment in one of my shitty threads, about if you took all the hashes ever and looked at the number of bits
439 2012-08-17 09:01:48 <amiller> my guess (based on benfords law) is that if you find the largest number of zeros in any hash, and then look at the number of hashes that have that number, then there's probably exactly 1 of them
440 2012-08-17 09:02:59 <kinlo> weex: the first blocks were not generated at one every 10 minutes
441 2012-08-17 09:03:14 <amiller> i'll give 0.5 bitcoin to the first person to do that
442 2012-08-17 09:03:29 <kinlo> weex: every 10 minutes means 2016 for 14 days
443 2012-08-17 09:03:41 <kinlo> weex: first 2016 blocks took 24 days, that's 10 days more...
444 2012-08-17 09:03:53 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
445 2012-08-17 09:03:59 <weex> kinlo: ahha, didn't know where to find that information quickly
446 2012-08-17 09:04:45 <amiller> what's the best way to parse blockchain data using python
447 2012-08-17 09:04:46 <amiller> pynode?
448 2012-08-17 09:05:00 <kinlo> weex: just surf to blockexplorer.com/b/2016 and you'll see the date :)
449 2012-08-17 09:05:35 <weex> oh, /b/ is nice
450 2012-08-17 09:09:16 iocor has joined
451 2012-08-17 09:10:41 <kinlo> put the full url, people will think you're referring to 4chan :)
452 2012-08-17 09:10:54 <lianj> ;)
453 2012-08-17 09:11:26 <weex> what's a 4 chan :P
454 2012-08-17 09:14:20 <kinlo> weex: it's the dark side of the internet
455 2012-08-17 09:14:37 <kinlo> now jedi, stay with us, stay on the good side of the force!
456 2012-08-17 09:15:07 <weex> i'll have to remember blockexplorer/b/ is all i meant
457 2012-08-17 09:15:14 <kinlo> :)
458 2012-08-17 09:17:28 <amiller> it's too bad blockexplorer.com/b/random doesn't give you a random block
459 2012-08-17 09:18:28 <weex> report this bug to theymos at once!
460 2012-08-17 09:18:37 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
461 2012-08-17 09:19:48 <lianj> bug? more like add this useless feature please ^^
462 2012-08-17 09:20:45 TAiS46 has joined
463 2012-08-17 09:21:31 <weex> anyway i'm sure amiller can code a random number into a wget or whatev
464 2012-08-17 09:21:33 <amiller> ah i guess gavin's bitcointools is what i should be using for my little experiment
465 2012-08-17 09:22:30 <amiller> wevget: downloads random files from the internet usage: "wevget whatever"
466 2012-08-17 09:26:37 ThomasV has joined
467 2012-08-17 09:32:46 newUser has joined
468 2012-08-17 09:33:07 <newUser> Hi all
469 2012-08-17 09:34:42 <newUser> can anyone tell me why installation of electrum (bitcoin client) says "ImportError: No module named aes" in linux mint 13? python-crypto is installed ...
470 2012-08-17 09:43:04 <newUser> WITHDRAWN: following commands did it: apt-get install easy_install; easy_install slowaes; easy_install ecdsa
471 2012-08-17 09:47:06 newUser has quit (Quit: Page closed)
472 2012-08-17 09:51:14 chrisb__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
473 2012-08-17 09:52:20 <Raccoon> $15!
474 2012-08-17 09:53:08 <Raccoon> oh wait, that's only the shitty exchanges being artificial.
475 2012-08-17 09:53:14 <Raccoon> they need to get delisted.
476 2012-08-17 09:54:23 * amiller fusses for over 30 minutes just trying to open blkindex.dat with bitcointools "ERROR:root:Couldn't open blkindex.dat/main. Try quitting any running Bitcoin apps." no really, nothing's running and the file isn't held open
477 2012-08-17 10:05:13 knotwork has joined
478 2012-08-17 10:10:21 <genjix> ;;later tell justmoon what about instead of long namespace names, people just use prefixes for extension commands? 2 letter prefixes worked fine in the old C/C++ (e.g csArray, qErrorMessage, vrs_unpack, ...) - i don't see 12 bytes neccessarily being a huge limitation and if it is then we can always expand that (for old clients, clip the field if message name > 12)
479 2012-08-17 10:10:21 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
480 2012-08-17 10:11:25 <genjix> ;;later tell newUser there's a #electrum channel here
481 2012-08-17 10:11:25 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
482 2012-08-17 10:14:24 chrisb__ has joined
483 2012-08-17 10:15:53 LuaKT has joined
484 2012-08-17 10:15:54 LuaKT has quit (Changing host)
485 2012-08-17 10:15:54 LuaKT has joined
486 2012-08-17 10:18:31 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
487 2012-08-17 10:28:30 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
488 2012-08-17 10:28:55 dlb76 has joined
489 2012-08-17 10:37:31 iocor has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
490 2012-08-17 10:53:16 chrisb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
491 2012-08-17 10:59:02 apex-alt is now known as Apexseals
492 2012-08-17 11:05:30 LuaKT has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
493 2012-08-17 11:06:47 iocor has joined
494 2012-08-17 11:06:57 chrisb__ has joined
495 2012-08-17 11:07:52 chrisb__ has quit (Client Quit)
496 2012-08-17 11:11:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: well, in my case i don't care for the filesize
497 2012-08-17 11:13:45 minimoose has joined
498 2012-08-17 11:13:47 <Joric> yahoo! blockchain.info paid me 2 btc for the sigining/verifying code *cheer* *party* *dance*
499 2012-08-17 11:15:02 ForceMajeure_ has joined
500 2012-08-17 11:15:06 <kinlo> 2 btc, that's like one hour of work at extreamly cheap rates
501 2012-08-17 11:15:16 <kinlo> are you cheap joric? :)
502 2012-08-17 11:15:31 <Joric> extremely
503 2012-08-17 11:15:43 LuaKT has joined
504 2012-08-17 11:15:46 <kinlo> can you program something for me ? :p
505 2012-08-17 11:16:00 <Joric> that was a typo correction
506 2012-08-17 11:16:11 <Joric> :D
507 2012-08-17 11:16:40 <kinlo> hehe :p
508 2012-08-17 11:16:44 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
509 2012-08-17 11:17:00 <kinlo> exploit the fact that english isn't my native language
510 2012-08-17 11:17:21 <kinlo> now I'm stuck without cheap workforce
511 2012-08-17 11:17:31 <lianj> Joric: in what language is the (which) code?
512 2012-08-17 11:17:58 <kinlo> :)
513 2012-08-17 11:18:07 <kinlo> since it is blockchain, I'd asume javascript
514 2012-08-17 11:19:27 <Joric> lianj, javascript, signing/verifying message with bitcoin address, see blockchain.info > wallet > receive money > more actions / information icon
515 2012-08-17 11:19:36 <lianj> oh ha, makes sense though :D
516 2012-08-17 11:19:49 p0s has joined
517 2012-08-17 11:20:16 <lianj> hour rates in javascript must include the pain factor
518 2012-08-17 11:21:48 vampireb has joined
519 2012-08-17 11:22:40 <kinlo> why is that?
520 2012-08-17 11:22:42 <Joric> actually justmoon submitted it, i wrote a similar code few days before, we worked independently, i got 2 just for the sake of it
521 2012-08-17 11:22:55 <kinlo> javascript is a cool language
522 2012-08-17 11:23:15 <kinlo> if you need pain-money, there are many more languages more eligible for that
523 2012-08-17 11:24:34 <sipa> try INTERCAL
524 2012-08-17 11:27:49 <kinlo> sounds like fun :)
525 2012-08-17 11:34:58 Motest031 has joined
526 2012-08-17 11:35:48 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
527 2012-08-17 11:39:27 jine_ is now known as jine
528 2012-08-17 11:48:45 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
529 2012-08-17 11:49:46 Blitzboom has joined
530 2012-08-17 11:49:54 Blitzboom has left ()
531 2012-08-17 11:58:11 ForceMajeure_ is now known as ForceMajeure
532 2012-08-17 12:02:36 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
533 2012-08-17 12:03:36 Fanquake has joined
534 2012-08-17 12:13:00 toffoo has quit ()
535 2012-08-17 12:19:33 tsche has joined
536 2012-08-17 12:19:41 t7 has joined
537 2012-08-17 12:20:10 tsche has quit (Client Quit)
538 2012-08-17 12:20:18 tsche has joined
539 2012-08-17 12:20:25 tsche has quit (Client Quit)
540 2012-08-17 12:21:19 tsche has joined
541 2012-08-17 12:21:29 <sipa> can gribble store quotes?
542 2012-08-17 12:21:31 <sipa> nanotube?
543 2012-08-17 12:24:52 tsche has quit (Client Quit)
544 2012-08-17 12:26:09 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
545 2012-08-17 12:32:59 curiositi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
546 2012-08-17 12:34:23 LuaKT has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
547 2012-08-17 12:37:56 LuaKT has joined
548 2012-08-17 12:37:57 LuaKT has quit (Changing host)
549 2012-08-17 12:37:57 LuaKT has joined
550 2012-08-17 12:40:30 agricocb has joined
551 2012-08-17 12:44:40 <nanotube> sipa: there's a plugin for it but it's not loaded. why?
552 2012-08-17 12:46:25 <sipa> would be a nice quote: < kinlo> are you cheap joric? :) < Joric> extremely
553 2012-08-17 12:46:37 <sipa> i know, context and stuffs...
554 2012-08-17 12:47:13 <kinlo> sipa: a good quote is indeed totally out of context. And a quote bot does bring some live to the channels :)
555 2012-08-17 12:50:02 rdponticelli has joined
556 2012-08-17 12:52:10 curiositi has joined
557 2012-08-17 12:59:11 curiositi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
558 2012-08-17 13:03:05 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
559 2012-08-17 13:04:28 iocor has joined
560 2012-08-17 13:05:00 mmoya has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
561 2012-08-17 13:06:39 Fanquake has left ()
562 2012-08-17 13:10:04 tsche has joined
563 2012-08-17 13:12:10 danbri has joined
564 2012-08-17 13:21:30 mmoya has joined
565 2012-08-17 13:32:07 ThomasV has joined
566 2012-08-17 13:42:49 user_ has joined
567 2012-08-17 13:43:15 CodeInChaos has joined
568 2012-08-17 13:45:11 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
569 2012-08-17 13:48:12 Raccoon has quit (Disconnected by services)
570 2012-08-17 13:48:13 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
571 2012-08-17 13:49:18 Raccoon has joined
572 2012-08-17 13:51:28 one_zero has quit ()
573 2012-08-17 13:52:39 tonikt has joined
574 2012-08-17 13:52:50 darkskiez has joined
575 2012-08-17 13:52:51 darkskiez has quit (Changing host)
576 2012-08-17 13:52:51 darkskiez has joined
577 2012-08-17 13:57:02 [\\\] has joined
578 2012-08-17 13:57:50 RainbowDashh has joined
579 2012-08-17 13:57:58 Joric has quit ()
580 2012-08-17 13:59:12 Raccoon has quit (Disconnected by services)
581 2012-08-17 14:00:19 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
582 2012-08-17 14:00:54 CodeInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
583 2012-08-17 14:01:51 Raccoon has joined
584 2012-08-17 14:02:25 meLon has quit (Changing host)
585 2012-08-17 14:02:25 meLon has joined
586 2012-08-17 14:03:34 imsaguy has joined
587 2012-08-17 14:03:34 imsaguy has quit (Changing host)
588 2012-08-17 14:03:34 imsaguy has joined
589 2012-08-17 14:06:23 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
590 2012-08-17 14:08:11 Clipse has joined
591 2012-08-17 14:15:56 tower has joined
592 2012-08-17 14:16:57 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
593 2012-08-17 14:19:23 tonikt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
594 2012-08-17 14:22:28 MC-Eeepc has joined
595 2012-08-17 14:23:27 Dyaheon- has quit ()
596 2012-08-17 14:24:51 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
597 2012-08-17 14:27:08 curiositi has joined
598 2012-08-17 14:29:23 ultrixx has joined
599 2012-08-17 14:30:45 Raccoon has quit (Excess Flood)
600 2012-08-17 14:31:20 Raccoon has joined
601 2012-08-17 14:44:53 tonikt has joined
602 2012-08-17 14:45:00 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
603 2012-08-17 14:46:37 Cablesaurus has joined
604 2012-08-17 14:48:06 copumpkin has joined
605 2012-08-17 14:48:20 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
606 2012-08-17 14:56:52 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
607 2012-08-17 15:03:46 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #14: STILL FAILING in 2 hr 26 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/14/
608 2012-08-17 15:04:50 Fanquake has joined
609 2012-08-17 15:15:00 [\\\]_d has joined
610 2012-08-17 15:15:02 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
611 2012-08-17 15:15:30 [\\\]_d is now known as [\\\]
612 2012-08-17 15:15:30 Fanquake has quit (Quit: Fanquake)
613 2012-08-17 15:15:54 Dyaheon has joined
614 2012-08-17 15:16:48 danbri_ has joined
615 2012-08-17 15:19:15 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
616 2012-08-17 15:26:17 vampireb has joined
617 2012-08-17 15:33:31 iocor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
618 2012-08-17 15:37:41 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
619 2012-08-17 15:41:57 ASukharev3318 has joined
620 2012-08-17 15:46:01 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
621 2012-08-17 15:47:38 vampireb has joined
622 2012-08-17 15:49:07 [\\\] has joined
623 2012-08-17 15:49:19 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
624 2012-08-17 15:53:01 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
625 2012-08-17 15:53:45 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
626 2012-08-17 15:54:12 iocor has joined
627 2012-08-17 15:56:40 Internet13 has joined
628 2012-08-17 15:59:04 t7 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204])
629 2012-08-17 15:59:49 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
630 2012-08-17 16:03:04 RazielZ has joined
631 2012-08-17 16:04:14 Raziel_ has joined
632 2012-08-17 16:04:21 pickett has joined
633 2012-08-17 16:05:13 p0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
634 2012-08-17 16:05:43 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
635 2012-08-17 16:07:15 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
636 2012-08-17 16:07:27 iocor has joined
637 2012-08-17 16:08:23 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
638 2012-08-17 16:09:50 Raziel_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
639 2012-08-17 16:10:08 RazielZ has joined
640 2012-08-17 16:10:14 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
641 2012-08-17 16:10:58 DamascusVG has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
642 2012-08-17 16:11:25 <gmaxwell> I can't help but worry that this idea of users running external applications to create fancy transactions via the raw API isn't going to burn us.
643 2012-08-17 16:11:38 <gmaxwell> (1) create fancy transaction tool
644 2012-08-17 16:11:43 <gmaxwell> (2) release windows binaries for it
645 2012-08-17 16:11:52 <gmaxwell> (3) Profit! (by stealing everyon'e wallets)
646 2012-08-17 16:14:27 copumpkin has joined
647 2012-08-17 16:18:26 <MC-Eeepc> beyond the obvious shit like the the unpleasantness that happened before the keypool
648 2012-08-17 16:19:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I suspect promoting that would be a bad idea..
649 2012-08-17 16:19:21 <MC-Eeepc> should you be babying bitcoin users every step? I thought bitcoin was about taking money back by taking responsibility back, both of which have been delegated
650 2012-08-17 16:19:40 <Luke-Jr> at the very least, normal users should be shown a "this is the effect on your wallet" GUI to use with webapps
651 2012-08-17 16:20:02 <MC-Eeepc> throw up a huge red waring box with THIS WILL FULL GRANT ACCESS TO YOUR WALLET Y/N
652 2012-08-17 16:20:12 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: â¦
653 2012-08-17 16:20:31 iocor has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
654 2012-08-17 16:20:37 <MC-Eeepc> what
655 2012-08-17 16:21:10 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: right, see, you're proving my point.
656 2012-08-17 16:21:23 <Luke-Jr> lol
657 2012-08-17 16:21:37 <MC-Eeepc> ?
658 2012-08-17 16:22:50 <gmaxwell> I'm all for people taking responsiblity for themselves. But security is _HARD_ even experts screw it up, and presumably you have other things to worry about than being a computer geek ninja. (The fact that we have windows users at all is proof that people are worried about other things than securityâ¦) We should generally try to avoid situations that set people up to fail.
659 2012-08-17 16:23:32 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: As far as why you're proving my pointâ your suggestion is totally pointless. The second you execute the potentially dangerous code on your system its game over. There is no point in bitcoin asking for permission because only a non-evil app would go along with it.
660 2012-08-17 16:23:35 <MC-Eeepc> yes thats what i said
661 2012-08-17 16:23:53 <gmaxwell> An evil app will go scrape the private keying material right out of the process memory of bitcoin.
662 2012-08-17 16:24:00 <MC-Eeepc> why have an API in the program at al then
663 2012-08-17 16:24:53 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: um. Because there is a big difference between having an api and constantly telling people to go pull obsecure tools of unknown provenance to use with it.
664 2012-08-17 16:24:56 <MC-Eeepc> and i thought modern os disallowed a random program looking all over the memory anymore
665 2012-08-17 16:25:54 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: nope, they just have to ask the right permission of the OS, and if they're running as the same user they can get it. Someone like _me_ could probably isolate things, but I even wouldn't bother; too much work. I just don't keep non-trivial amounts of coin online at all.
666 2012-08-17 16:26:10 <weex> gmaxwell: isn't every application on a system a potential worry?
667 2012-08-17 16:26:22 <weex> like some unzipper or screensaver
668 2012-08-17 16:26:44 <MC-Eeepc> well shit
669 2012-08-17 16:26:46 <gmaxwell> weex: Absolutely, the distinction there is that making bitcoin applets gives you an impressively targeted audience.
670 2012-08-17 16:27:28 <weex> yeah, i think don't store more in your computer than the cost of the OS license
671 2012-08-17 16:27:48 <weex> or your irl wallet equivalent
672 2012-08-17 16:29:56 <lianj> i guess, bitcoin wallet shouldnt be your irl wallet equivalent
673 2012-08-17 16:30:46 tonikt has joined
674 2012-08-17 16:31:00 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
675 2012-08-17 16:31:36 <weex> lianj: somehow users have to develop a feel for risk and everyone's differnt in terms of how much cash they'd carry on their person
676 2012-08-17 16:31:41 <weex> or keep in their home or office
677 2012-08-17 16:31:54 <weex> so that is a useful level to reference
678 2012-08-17 16:32:15 danbri_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
679 2012-08-17 16:32:59 <helo> it should be trivial for a user to create and restore a secure offline backup using the main client
680 2012-08-17 16:33:24 <helo> then we say "never have more money than you need online"
681 2012-08-17 16:33:25 <gmaxwell> helo: if you have to put it online to spend from it it's not much more secure than keeping it online.
682 2012-08-17 16:33:30 <gmaxwell> The malware will happily lurk.
683 2012-08-17 16:33:51 <gmaxwell> It's _possible_ to keep your private keys entirely offline, but it's not currently easy with the reference client.
684 2012-08-17 16:33:56 danbri has joined
685 2012-08-17 16:34:25 <gmaxwell> (well, it's not even possible with the reference client prior to git master from about two weeks ago)
686 2012-08-17 16:34:36 <helo> i guess computer security just isn't where it needs to be for sane usability and protection
687 2012-08-17 16:34:55 <lianj> weex: so what do you suggest? keep only little in on your home computer and store the rest in an online wallet, or cold wallet? or has bitcoin failed and shouldnt be used to store money at all?
688 2012-08-17 16:35:09 <helo> i.e. "please install a blank copy of windows from installation media, and create your wallet, and make a offline backup BEFORE you connect to the internet."
689 2012-08-17 16:35:12 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
690 2012-08-17 16:35:16 <gmaxwell> Here is an example of doing offline signing using the reference client: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt
691 2012-08-17 16:35:44 <helo> i just use pywallet for offline transactions
692 2012-08-17 16:36:04 <weex> lianj: i didn't say anything failed, i'm just saying if you wanted to use it as a store of value, it's good to partition it
693 2012-08-17 16:36:26 <weex> and the relative value of those partitions should match the lengths gone to secure them
694 2012-08-17 16:36:39 <helo> i guess it's important not to just have an offline backup on paper or a thumb drive, but on some offline device that can do offline signing
695 2012-08-17 16:36:49 <weex> so an online wallet, an instawallet, a home wallet, a paper wallet...all good for their own purposes
696 2012-08-17 16:37:31 <helo> disconnected android devices would make good offline signers
697 2012-08-17 16:37:38 <gmaxwell> helo: I'm guessing you haven't actually done what you say, because AFAIK you can't actually use pyallet for offline transactions.
698 2012-08-17 16:37:48 <weex> what we need are minimal tools that are as easy as possible to verify
699 2012-08-17 16:38:03 <helo> i used the pywallet-web fork to insert the raw transactions
700 2012-08-17 16:39:30 <helo> i.e. pywallet dump on offline machine after sending the transaction on the offline machine, and then run pywallet-web on my online machine to add them to that wallet, and then start bitcoin
701 2012-08-17 16:40:18 <gmaxwell> helo: How do you create the transaction on the offline machine. It's not possible to spend inputs you don't have.
702 2012-08-17 16:40:32 <helo> right, i have to copy the blockchain there first
703 2012-08-17 16:40:44 <gmaxwell> Yea, that works. You are a patient man. :)
704 2012-08-17 16:41:00 <weex> he just uses rsy...doh!
705 2012-08-17 16:41:30 <gmaxwell> In 0.7 you can create txn manually without having the chain, so long as you copy over the required information from the inputs.
706 2012-08-17 16:41:36 denisx has joined
707 2012-08-17 16:42:01 <gmaxwell> But what we really need is the ability to load the public keys without the private keys on the online wallet, so the online wallet can easily write the txn.
708 2012-08-17 16:42:02 <helo> not exactly convenient, but i wanted to get the process down to be confident in my ability to secure large amounts of coin, should i ever acquire it
709 2012-08-17 16:42:52 <helo> gmaxwell: yes, that...
710 2012-08-17 16:43:32 <helo> although, malware could replace the destination address with their own
711 2012-08-17 16:43:49 <gmaxwell> Right, though the offline wallet should show you the destination.
712 2012-08-17 16:44:30 <gmaxwell> In theory you could also carry over a copy of the destination address signed by a cert to give it a human readable name; but thats a lot more potentially vulnerable code on the signing device.
713 2012-08-17 16:45:02 t7 has joined
714 2012-08-17 16:45:52 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
715 2012-08-17 16:45:53 <gmaxwell> E.g. the transaction to be signed could include extra data for 'proof of identity'. Which could be a copy of a SSL Cert + CA chain + a signature of the destination address using it.
716 2012-08-17 16:45:55 <helo> an offline signing android device would be able to use a qr-code to import the transaction payload from bitcoin-qt directly. the hard part is getting the signature back to bitcoin-qt
717 2012-08-17 16:46:01 TheSeven has joined
718 2012-08-17 16:46:09 TD has joined
719 2012-08-17 16:46:30 <gmaxwell> helo: uh, thats not hard at all anymore.
720 2012-08-17 16:46:37 <gmaxwell> oh you mean the data.
721 2012-08-17 16:46:39 <gmaxwell> Yea.
722 2012-08-17 16:47:02 <gmaxwell> (I was going to say 'sendrawtransaction' gets it back in, but you have to get the data there)
723 2012-08-17 16:47:27 <gmaxwell> I was pondering writing a crazy free space audio modem .. since more PCs have mics than webcams.
724 2012-08-17 16:47:31 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
725 2012-08-17 16:47:37 <helo> i guess a pair of android devices... one offline signing, and one online monitoring and transaction generating
726 2012-08-17 16:47:50 <helo> but that removes bitcoin-qt from the loop entirely
727 2012-08-17 16:48:25 <gmaxwell> Thats fine too.
728 2012-08-17 16:48:49 <gmaxwell> though, I'm not sure how well screen displayed QR codes will work, it ends up being a fair amount of data in a lot of cases.
729 2012-08-17 16:49:23 <MC-Eeepc> so scale of 1 to were doomed
730 2012-08-17 16:49:38 <MC-Eeepc> how hard is making bitcoin reasonably secure on joe randoms machine
731 2012-08-17 16:49:41 <lianj> gmaxwell: "We need to provide the scriptpubkey of the inputs we're signing so our offline wallet knows which of its keys to use." * and is able to create the right signature hash with is then signed
732 2012-08-17 16:50:05 Marf has joined
733 2012-08-17 16:50:38 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: you don'tâ you get joe random to get some pocket sized bitcoin wallet hardware. Which connects to his PC via USB and has a little screen to confirm transactions on it and sign.
734 2012-08-17 16:50:56 <helo> usb stack exploits :(
735 2012-08-17 16:50:59 <epscy> MC-Eeepc: it's about as hard as any piece of software
736 2012-08-17 16:51:09 <gmaxwell> helo: yes, and you design it so there is ~no risk of that.
737 2012-08-17 16:51:12 <MC-Eeepc> like that bitcoin card thing?
738 2012-08-17 16:51:43 <MC-Eeepc> tamper proof hardware, encrypted memory etc
739 2012-08-17 16:51:45 <gmaxwell> helo: e.g. you have a usb stack on a chip that only has an rs232 interface to the microcontroller, and the µc software is written to be super-paranoid robust about its input.
740 2012-08-17 16:52:08 <epscy> the truth is authentication is hard whatever you are doing
741 2012-08-17 16:52:19 <gmaxwell> (fortunately, we're talking about 2k LOC of C or so, tops, so it's not terribly hard to make it quite hardened)
742 2012-08-17 16:52:26 <epscy> if your facebook account gets hacked, that can be very annoying
743 2012-08-17 16:52:42 <epscy> if your bank gets hacked that can be disastrous
744 2012-08-17 16:53:05 <epscy> and the bitcoin client is a bit like running your own bank
745 2012-08-17 16:53:49 <epscy> i'm not certain bitcoin should have general clients at all, we probably need certified hardware
746 2012-08-17 16:53:54 <epscy> to hold a wallet
747 2012-08-17 16:53:58 tsche has quit ()
748 2012-08-17 16:54:08 <gmaxwell> epscy: good luck getting anyone to use that system.
749 2012-08-17 16:54:44 <helo> the general client's convenience is worth it for smaller amounts
750 2012-08-17 16:54:46 <gmaxwell> It's really a non-issue for small amounts of funds.
751 2012-08-17 16:54:56 <epscy> well yeah, we are in current position because this is the only way to get bitcoin adopted
752 2012-08-17 16:55:16 <gmaxwell> someone stealing 1 BTC from you would actually be great newsâ cheapest security audit EVER. :)
753 2012-08-17 16:55:46 <epscy> but hypothetically, forget windows, i wouldn't want to store a large amount of coin on a PC running any consumer OS
754 2012-08-17 16:56:11 <epscy> mac os or ubuntu either
755 2012-08-17 16:56:11 <helo> it would be neat if anti-virus software included the private key for 0.5 bitcoin :)
756 2012-08-17 16:57:10 <gmaxwell> epscy: the OS is irrelevant, if the system with the large amount is offline your security is pretty good.
757 2012-08-17 16:58:42 <weex> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security
758 2012-08-17 17:01:25 <epscy> gmaxwell: well it seems like one problem is broadcasting the transaction
759 2012-08-17 17:01:42 <epscy> at that point you are vulnerable
760 2012-08-17 17:02:08 <epscy> it would good if you could have a device that you literrally just plug into the network, hit send, then uplug
761 2012-08-17 17:02:34 <weex> epscy: there are many facets to security, what protects that device?
762 2012-08-17 17:02:48 <epscy> err certification?
763 2012-08-17 17:02:55 <epscy> there is money to be made here
764 2012-08-17 17:02:58 <weex> Perception of security can also increase objective security when it affects or deters malicious behavior, as with visual signs of security protections, such as video surveillance, alarm systems in a home, or an anti-theft system in a car such as a vehicle tracking system or warning sign.
765 2012-08-17 17:02:59 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
766 2012-08-17 17:03:03 <epscy> maybe not now, but eventually
767 2012-08-17 17:03:28 <weex> this bitcoin wallet protected by ADT
768 2012-08-17 17:03:34 <gmaxwell> epscy: huh?
769 2012-08-17 17:03:42 <gmaxwell> epsc09:55 < epscy> gmaxwell: well it seems like one problem is broadcasting the transaction
770 2012-08-17 17:03:46 <gmaxwell> what are you talking about there?
771 2012-08-17 17:03:47 paraipan has joined
772 2012-08-17 17:04:08 <epscy> being vulnerable to malware at the point when you need to be online
773 2012-08-17 17:04:23 <gmaxwell> epscy: Your offline wallet is _never_ online.
774 2012-08-17 17:04:29 <helo> epscy: i've been running under the assumption that qt code scanning is a safe way to transfer data to/from an offline signing device
775 2012-08-17 17:04:38 <helo> err qr code
776 2012-08-17 17:05:09 <gmaxwell> epscy: it writes the signed transaction out, and you shuttle it over to the online wallet in some way (file, QR code+webcam, crazy audio modem), and the online system does the announcement.
777 2012-08-17 17:05:28 <epscy> what if the online system is comprimised?
778 2012-08-17 17:05:41 <gmaxwell> epscy: What if? All it can do is a denial of service.
779 2012-08-17 17:05:41 <epscy> admittedly, I am no security expert
780 2012-08-17 17:05:57 <epscy> it can't steal coins?
781 2012-08-17 17:06:02 tsche has joined
782 2012-08-17 17:06:06 <gmaxwell> No, it doesn't have access to the private keys.
783 2012-08-17 17:06:12 <helo> the offline signing machine displays the destination address and amount, which the user can verify out-of-band
784 2012-08-17 17:06:22 <epscy> hmmmm, ok
785 2012-08-17 17:06:54 <helo> doesn't have any blockchain access, or knowledge of how bitcoin works aside from parsing out transaction payload details and signing
786 2012-08-17 17:07:24 <helo> then it boils down to the encryption on teh offline device, and entering the key to decrypt the private keys before signing
787 2012-08-17 17:07:34 Joric has joined
788 2012-08-17 17:09:41 Diapolo has joined
789 2012-08-17 17:09:47 Diapolo has left ()
790 2012-08-17 17:10:18 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker
791 2012-08-17 17:10:18 <gribble> Best bid: 15.1, Best ask: 15.15, Bid-ask spread: 0.05000, Last trade: 15.1, 24 hour volume: 86570, 24 hour low: 13.2, 24 hour high: 15.2
792 2012-08-17 17:10:30 m00p has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
793 2012-08-17 17:11:28 luncht1me has joined
794 2012-08-17 17:13:03 luncht1me has quit (Client Quit)
795 2012-08-17 17:13:05 maqr has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to nap.)
796 2012-08-17 17:15:21 vampireb has quit (Quit: leaving)
797 2012-08-17 17:15:29 vampireb has joined
798 2012-08-17 17:16:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yeah, nuts
799 2012-08-17 17:17:44 luncht1me has joined
800 2012-08-17 17:17:56 MiningBuddy- is now known as MiningBuddy
801 2012-08-17 17:18:08 * jgarzik looks at http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/mtgoxUSD.html
802 2012-08-17 17:18:15 ThomasV has joined
803 2012-08-17 17:18:53 <helo> parabolic since june...
804 2012-08-17 17:18:56 <jgarzik> http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/mtgoxUSD_depth.html
805 2012-08-17 17:19:13 <gmaxwell> helo: oh god, not graph chickenbones.
806 2012-08-17 17:19:26 <vampireb> ;;gpg auth vampire
807 2012-08-17 17:19:27 <gribble> Request successful for user vampire, hostmask vampireb!~vampireb@blood.vampire.ro. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:1a10e752bf3cd9bd19d92b9be9c5f07d5a7aa6c76251c9d7fdbb5ed7
808 2012-08-17 17:19:46 <gmaxwell> vampireb: er, please do that auth stuff in private.
809 2012-08-17 17:19:52 <vampireb> sorry
810 2012-08-17 17:19:59 luncht1me has quit (Client Quit)
811 2012-08-17 17:27:38 rdponticelli has joined
812 2012-08-17 17:29:32 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
813 2012-08-17 17:29:41 Zarutian has joined
814 2012-08-17 17:30:05 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
815 2012-08-17 17:30:47 paul0 has joined
816 2012-08-17 17:32:57 yellowhat has joined
817 2012-08-17 17:33:26 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
818 2012-08-17 17:33:41 BCBot has joined
819 2012-08-17 17:37:31 osmosis has joined
820 2012-08-17 17:39:15 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Pull the pin and count to what?)
821 2012-08-17 17:42:32 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
822 2012-08-17 17:42:33 da2ce7_d has joined
823 2012-08-17 17:42:50 MC-Eeepc has joined
824 2012-08-17 17:45:14 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
825 2012-08-17 17:48:23 graingert has joined
826 2012-08-17 17:48:28 lunchtime has joined
827 2012-08-17 17:50:17 bonks has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
828 2012-08-17 17:51:12 lunchtime has quit (Client Quit)
829 2012-08-17 17:53:10 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
830 2012-08-17 17:53:42 MC-Eeepc has joined
831 2012-08-17 17:55:12 rdponticelli has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
832 2012-08-17 17:55:26 rdponticelli has joined
833 2012-08-17 17:57:00 B0g4r7__ has joined
834 2012-08-17 18:00:11 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
835 2012-08-17 18:00:49 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
836 2012-08-17 18:00:50 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
837 2012-08-17 18:03:40 vampireb has joined
838 2012-08-17 18:06:50 zveda has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
839 2012-08-17 18:07:22 Cablesaurus has joined
840 2012-08-17 18:07:57 zveda has joined
841 2012-08-17 18:07:57 zveda has quit (Changing host)
842 2012-08-17 18:07:57 zveda has joined
843 2012-08-17 18:12:12 graingert has joined
844 2012-08-17 18:13:44 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #15: STILL FAILING in 2 hr 16 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/15/
845 2012-08-17 18:14:27 <Luke-Jr> screw you BlueMattBot
846 2012-08-17 18:14:37 <Luke-Jr> wtf does that commit have to do with me?
847 2012-08-17 18:14:47 bonks has joined
848 2012-08-17 18:15:12 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it nags me too.
849 2012-08-17 18:15:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought it was just supposed to PM those related?
850 2012-08-17 18:15:29 <Luke-Jr> seems random now
851 2012-08-17 18:16:41 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
852 2012-08-17 18:16:42 lunchtime has joined
853 2012-08-17 18:16:53 lunchtime has quit (Client Quit)
854 2012-08-17 18:17:29 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
855 2012-08-17 18:17:49 molecular has joined
856 2012-08-17 18:18:18 lunchtime has joined
857 2012-08-17 18:22:55 luncht1me has joined
858 2012-08-17 18:24:38 lunchtime has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
859 2012-08-17 18:27:16 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
860 2012-08-17 18:28:23 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
861 2012-08-17 18:30:41 ForceMajeure has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
862 2012-08-17 18:34:22 CodesInChaos has joined
863 2012-08-17 18:34:23 curiositi has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120714012003])
864 2012-08-17 18:34:54 d4de has joined
865 2012-08-17 18:34:54 d4de has quit (Changing host)
866 2012-08-17 18:34:54 d4de has joined
867 2012-08-17 18:37:17 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
868 2012-08-17 18:40:09 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
869 2012-08-17 18:41:06 BCBot has joined
870 2012-08-17 18:41:27 freewil has joined
871 2012-08-17 18:43:23 torsthaldo has joined
872 2012-08-17 18:46:13 [1]asa has joined
873 2012-08-17 18:46:55 D34TH has joined
874 2012-08-17 18:47:48 asa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
875 2012-08-17 18:47:48 [1]asa is now known as asa
876 2012-08-17 18:49:04 theymos has joined
877 2012-08-17 18:52:15 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
878 2012-08-17 18:52:18 vampireb has joined
879 2012-08-17 19:00:48 PhantomSpark has joined
880 2012-08-17 19:03:03 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
881 2012-08-17 19:04:18 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
882 2012-08-17 19:04:50 <amiller> i'm still having trouble using gavinandresen's bitcointools to poke around with the blkindex.dat
883 2012-08-17 19:05:08 <amiller> db_stat ~/.bitcoin/blkindex.dat gives: 53162 Btree magic number 9 Btree version number
884 2012-08-17 19:06:14 <amiller> but this line fails: db.open("blkindex.dat", "main", DB_BTREE, DB_RDONLY)
885 2012-08-17 19:06:22 <amiller> DBInvalidArgError: (22, 'Invalid argument -- __db_meta_setup: /home/amiller/.bitcoin/blkindex.dat: unexpected file type or format')
886 2012-08-17 19:06:51 rdponticelli_ has joined
887 2012-08-17 19:07:06 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
888 2012-08-17 19:07:41 toffoo has joined
889 2012-08-17 19:08:17 <amiller> i think i should try to work out which versions of libbdb are being used, since python-bsddb is intended for 4.0-4.8, and i think i read 5.0+ is not backwards compatible
890 2012-08-17 19:11:06 tower has joined
891 2012-08-17 19:16:23 Luke-Jr has joined
892 2012-08-17 19:20:31 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
893 2012-08-17 19:21:40 Isola has joined
894 2012-08-17 19:21:44 jurov is now known as away!xzbnxup@84.245.71.31|jurov
895 2012-08-17 19:22:02 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
896 2012-08-17 19:31:25 ultrixx has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7)
897 2012-08-17 19:39:01 topace has quit (Changing host)
898 2012-08-17 19:39:01 topace has joined
899 2012-08-17 19:40:02 toffoo has quit ()
900 2012-08-17 19:40:20 toffoo has joined
901 2012-08-17 19:40:33 toffoo has quit (Client Quit)
902 2012-08-17 19:41:04 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
903 2012-08-17 19:41:08 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
904 2012-08-17 19:41:20 toffoo has joined
905 2012-08-17 19:42:20 BCB_ has joined
906 2012-08-17 19:42:22 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
907 2012-08-17 19:46:56 <jgarzik> heh
908 2012-08-17 19:47:08 <jgarzik> I wonder if those GLBSE bonds that pay out if pirate disappears will indeed pay out
909 2012-08-17 19:47:56 <jgarzik> I always thought somebody should do an SD-like intrade site. No need for logins or anything, just send to an address to speculate on an event. I think there's one small, crappy, untrustworthy site that does this, but nothing else.
910 2012-08-17 19:48:38 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
911 2012-08-17 19:49:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and multisign addresses... with distributed validation.
912 2012-08-17 19:50:04 elkingrey has joined
913 2012-08-17 19:50:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I have thought seriously about trying to figure out how to do it legally in the US. If you exclude sports and random events (dice etc.), it is a grey area rather than illegal AFAICS
914 2012-08-17 19:50:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, there are a bunch of people who've wanted to do prediction markets but rapidly run into the legal ambiguity.
915 2012-08-17 19:50:54 <jgarzik> University of Iowa operates a prediction market with a $500 limit, under a CFTC(IIRC) cover letter
916 2012-08-17 19:51:35 <gmaxwell> Yup.
917 2012-08-17 19:53:19 ForceMajeure has joined
918 2012-08-17 19:59:14 BCB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
919 2012-08-17 19:59:20 dvide has quit ()
920 2012-08-17 20:06:56 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
921 2012-08-17 20:06:57 hnz_ has joined
922 2012-08-17 20:09:52 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
923 2012-08-17 20:12:25 BCBot has joined
924 2012-08-17 20:17:37 Diablo-D3 has joined
925 2012-08-17 20:18:35 iocor has joined
926 2012-08-17 20:20:14 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
927 2012-08-17 20:24:42 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
928 2012-08-17 20:26:08 gfinn has joined
929 2012-08-17 20:26:15 BCBot has joined
930 2012-08-17 20:30:31 bonks is now known as Guest37150
931 2012-08-17 20:30:59 Guest37150 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
932 2012-08-17 20:33:20 mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
933 2012-08-17 20:33:53 bonks has joined
934 2012-08-17 20:36:54 LuaKTT has joined
935 2012-08-17 20:37:49 md2k7 has joined
936 2012-08-17 20:38:19 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
937 2012-08-17 20:39:09 LuaKT has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
938 2012-08-17 20:39:51 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
939 2012-08-17 20:43:46 BCBot has joined
940 2012-08-17 20:46:45 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
941 2012-08-17 20:48:38 PK has joined
942 2012-08-17 20:49:39 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
943 2012-08-17 20:53:15 BCBot has joined
944 2012-08-17 20:56:22 _W is now known as _W_
945 2012-08-17 20:56:33 BurtyBB has joined
946 2012-08-17 20:58:56 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
947 2012-08-17 20:59:20 pebbles has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
948 2012-08-17 20:59:55 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
949 2012-08-17 21:00:37 tsche has quit ()
950 2012-08-17 21:02:24 BCBot has joined
951 2012-08-17 21:03:44 Guest74706 is now known as bdcs
952 2012-08-17 21:03:51 bdcs has quit (Changing host)
953 2012-08-17 21:03:51 bdcs has joined
954 2012-08-17 21:03:56 coiax has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
955 2012-08-17 21:04:50 coiax has joined
956 2012-08-17 21:07:15 ivan\ has joined
957 2012-08-17 21:08:55 luncht1me has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
958 2012-08-17 21:09:47 jurov is now known as jurov|away
959 2012-08-17 21:10:12 Joric_ has joined
960 2012-08-17 21:12:43 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
961 2012-08-17 21:16:29 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
962 2012-08-17 21:19:01 tsche has joined
963 2012-08-17 21:21:07 justmoon has joined
964 2012-08-17 21:22:36 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
965 2012-08-17 21:27:04 qwebirc120938 has joined
966 2012-08-17 21:27:36 rdponticelli has joined
967 2012-08-17 21:28:09 <qwebirc120938> hey, so I have two transactions from about two hours ago. the first one (298 btc) has 9 confirmations. the second one (355 btc) still has 0 confirmations. it was only sent four minutes after the first. anything to worry about?
968 2012-08-17 21:28:27 gfinn has joined
969 2012-08-17 21:28:32 user_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
970 2012-08-17 21:29:47 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
971 2012-08-17 21:30:07 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr/gmaxwell: it nags anyone with a commit since the last success
972 2012-08-17 21:32:15 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
973 2012-08-17 21:32:26 BCBot has joined
974 2012-08-17 21:33:10 elkingrey has joined
975 2012-08-17 21:36:04 vampireb has joined
976 2012-08-17 21:38:13 Joric_ is now known as Joric
977 2012-08-17 21:39:42 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
978 2012-08-17 21:41:02 BCBot has joined
979 2012-08-17 21:41:30 sirk390 has joined
980 2012-08-17 21:43:02 user_ has joined
981 2012-08-17 21:43:59 asa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
982 2012-08-17 21:44:30 <qwebirc120938> what's up with my transaction that hasn't been confirmed for 2.5 hours?
983 2012-08-17 21:45:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm. on my own jenkins install I thought it only nagged between the last success and first failure.
984 2012-08-17 21:45:33 <gmaxwell> but then again, I don't leave any of its repos failing; so perhaps I wouldn't know.
985 2012-08-17 21:45:38 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
986 2012-08-17 21:46:34 <Eliel> qwebirc120938: if there's no fee in the transaction, that's reasonably likely that it could take a while.
987 2012-08-17 21:46:40 asa has joined
988 2012-08-17 21:47:05 <Eliel> qwebirc120938: if you can provide blockchain.info link to the transaction in question, then we might be able to say more.
989 2012-08-17 21:47:18 <qwebirc120938> http://blockchain.info/address/16Qge8ePtomVfXU62be71UAQbtPJ7ehXn6
990 2012-08-17 21:47:28 <qwebirc120938> notice there was another 4 minutes earlier that has 10+ confirmations
991 2012-08-17 21:48:18 <gmaxwell> it was in a block but it got orphaned.
992 2012-08-17 21:50:11 <qwebirc120938> what does that mean?
993 2012-08-17 21:51:44 <Luke-Jr> it's 1.2 KB, but no fee
994 2012-08-17 21:51:57 <Luke-Jr> probably won't get mined until Eligius finds a block or something
995 2012-08-17 21:52:34 <qwebirc120938> hmm okay, i will just wait it out i guess
996 2012-08-17 21:52:51 PK has quit ()
997 2012-08-17 21:53:24 <gmaxwell> qwebirc120938: it got mined once but that block didn't survive, happens a couple percent of the time. Thats a good sign that it will get mined again somewhat soon.
998 2012-08-17 21:54:03 <Luke-Jr> Deepbit might
999 2012-08-17 21:54:38 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1000 2012-08-17 21:55:57 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1001 2012-08-17 21:56:17 _W_ has quit (Excess Flood)
1002 2012-08-17 21:56:36 _W_ has joined
1003 2012-08-17 22:04:54 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1004 2012-08-17 22:07:29 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1005 2012-08-17 22:07:30 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #16: FIXED in 3 hr 53 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/16/
1006 2012-08-17 22:07:57 BCBot has joined
1007 2012-08-17 22:08:45 TAiS46 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1008 2012-08-17 22:11:29 pebbles has joined
1009 2012-08-17 22:15:24 denisx has joined
1010 2012-08-17 22:17:21 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1011 2012-08-17 22:19:51 t2che has joined
1012 2012-08-17 22:21:04 denisx_ has joined
1013 2012-08-17 22:23:19 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1014 2012-08-17 22:24:30 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1015 2012-08-17 22:24:30 denisx_ is now known as denisx
1016 2012-08-17 22:28:34 qwebirc120938 has left ()
1017 2012-08-17 22:34:01 Diapolo has joined
1018 2012-08-17 22:37:51 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1019 2012-08-17 22:39:31 <amiller> hrm, can't open blkindex.dat with python bsddb3 either, although that supports libdb versions 4.x through 5.1
1020 2012-08-17 22:41:20 mtve has joined
1021 2012-08-17 22:41:52 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1022 2012-08-17 22:44:43 lunchtime has joined
1023 2012-08-17 22:48:53 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1024 2012-08-17 22:49:16 <jgarzik> amiller: yeah, I never had any luck with bsddb* either
1025 2012-08-17 22:49:44 <jgarzik> amiller: I was going to add a bdb module to pynode's bitcoin lib, making it easy for everyone to use (a la bitcointools)
1026 2012-08-17 22:49:55 lunchtime has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1027 2012-08-17 22:50:14 <jgarzik> but it was too difficult to ensure that everyone could open bitcoin's databases.
1028 2012-08-17 22:50:29 <jgarzik> distro versions and compilations just varied too widely, and it failed more often than not
1029 2012-08-17 22:51:28 eoss has joined
1030 2012-08-17 22:51:29 eoss has quit (Changing host)
1031 2012-08-17 22:51:29 eoss has joined
1032 2012-08-17 22:52:15 <amiller> that seems very strange to me, i thought bdb was well established
1033 2012-08-17 22:52:32 <amiller> actually the trend is to move towards leveldb soon, isn't it
1034 2012-08-17 22:53:29 <jgarzik> amiller: it's well established, but there are too many format versions out in the wild
1035 2012-08-17 22:54:03 <Joric> windows distribution of python includes bsddb module by default
1036 2012-08-17 22:56:12 LuaKTT has quit ()
1037 2012-08-17 22:57:49 <amiller> jgarzik, if i understand you right, your current stance is to keep blkindex.dat-parsing out of scope for pynode
1038 2012-08-17 22:58:11 md2k7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1039 2012-08-17 22:58:29 <jgarzik> amiller: correct
1040 2012-08-17 22:58:47 <jgarzik> amiller: solely due to this incompatibility issue
1041 2012-08-17 22:59:21 <jgarzik> Joric: bsddb is included in all distros by default. the question is what version of the underlying database lib it was built against...
1042 2012-08-17 22:59:58 <jgarzik> the problem is "module present, cannot open bitcoin .dat files" not "module missing"
1043 2012-08-17 23:00:27 eoss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1044 2012-08-17 23:01:43 <Joric> yeah, well, careful with that! i thought theres a problem with indexes not the db itself
1045 2012-08-17 23:02:33 <jgarzik> huh?
1046 2012-08-17 23:03:47 <Joric> i never had any problems with wallet.dat it should be blkindex.dat
1047 2012-08-17 23:07:53 t2che has quit ()
1048 2012-08-17 23:08:38 <amiller> bsddb.db.version(): (5, 1, 25)
1049 2012-08-17 23:08:56 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1050 2012-08-17 23:09:24 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1051 2012-08-17 23:10:52 <amiller> so that's the same version as the db5.1-util package i'm using, with commands like db_verify and db_stat, which process blkindex.dat just fine
1052 2012-08-17 23:14:07 <amiller> maybe one of those tools will let me read it in and dump it back out again and i can compare version numbers
1053 2012-08-17 23:15:58 Gladamas has joined
1054 2012-08-17 23:19:21 phantomcircuit has joined
1055 2012-08-17 23:21:09 Joric has quit ()
1056 2012-08-17 23:22:33 <denisx> my pool makes payouts with sums ilke 0.234234 BTC
1057 2012-08-17 23:22:47 <denisx> is that more expensive than rounded to 0.23 BTC?
1058 2012-08-17 23:23:14 <denisx> or a problem for the network or the fees and stuff?
1059 2012-08-17 23:23:37 vampireb has joined
1060 2012-08-17 23:24:49 <jgarzik> denisx: well, people wind up spending 0.23 and have 0.004234 hanging around that they never spend
1061 2012-08-17 23:24:56 <Gladamas> denisx: the number of decimal places doesn't matter really at all, just how many inputs/outputs the transaction has makes a difference (also any outputs <0.01 BTC will require a fee)
1062 2012-08-17 23:25:10 ultrixx has joined
1063 2012-08-17 23:25:23 <jgarzik> Gladamas: tiny values do not get spent in practice
1064 2012-08-17 23:25:39 <denisx> Gladamas: but will that produce more outputs because of the fraction?
1065 2012-08-17 23:25:41 <jgarzik> Gladamas: what service give you anything useful for 0.00000001 BTC?
1066 2012-08-17 23:25:56 <jgarzik> denisx: small values produce more outputs _down the road_
1067 2012-08-17 23:26:05 <Gladamas> jgarzik: not necessarily, I spend to the satoshi when making certain payments to GLBSE and stuff
1068 2012-08-17 23:26:57 <amiller> okay so i just did db_dump | db_load on blkindex.dat
1069 2012-08-17 23:27:06 <denisx> question is: makes it more sense to round my payouts to say 2 digits after decimal point
1070 2012-08-17 23:27:14 <amiller> i got a new database that is 600MB instead of 850MB
1071 2012-08-17 23:27:24 <amiller> i'm able to read the new database in python with bitcointools just fine
1072 2012-08-17 23:27:27 [\\\] has joined
1073 2012-08-17 23:27:34 <Gladamas> denisx: thats fine as long as you keep the full decimal value in the db
1074 2012-08-17 23:27:37 <amiller> my guess is i'm using an old shitty version of bitcoind
1075 2012-08-17 23:27:45 <Gladamas> denisx: and dont delete the extra btc's
1076 2012-08-17 23:27:47 <denisx> Gladamas: of course
1077 2012-08-17 23:28:29 <amiller> Bitcoin version 0.3.24-beta
1078 2012-08-17 23:28:33 <amiller> that's not even close to current, is it
1079 2012-08-17 23:29:36 <Gladamas> lol nope
1080 2012-08-17 23:29:40 <Gladamas> 0.6.3 is current
1081 2012-08-17 23:31:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: re 1684 ... the fact that it doesn't remove the file when done means that it's going to keep reloading it on every startup..
1082 2012-08-17 23:34:49 sunshinehappy has joined
1083 2012-08-17 23:35:03 Motest003 has joined
1084 2012-08-17 23:35:30 <sunshinehappy> bitcoin can't find my openssl even though pkg-config can, swhat should I do?
1085 2012-08-17 23:35:54 Motest031 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1086 2012-08-17 23:36:47 <user_> what is the problem with these transactions?: www.blockchain.info/address/13AFvadrSnsAzSXTSguFRCJB6j5nzcAQ7i
1087 2012-08-17 23:36:57 <user_> will be confirmed?
1088 2012-08-17 23:39:37 dvide has joined
1089 2012-08-17 23:40:32 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1090 2012-08-17 23:41:39 <sunshinehappy> please help me
1091 2012-08-17 23:41:45 <sunshinehappy> I'm bad at compiling
1092 2012-08-17 23:42:15 <sipa> amiller: you were using 0.3.24? :o
1093 2012-08-17 23:42:58 <amiller> i use wevget as my package manager
1094 2012-08-17 23:43:22 <sipa> wevget?
1095 2012-08-17 23:43:37 <sipa> sunshinehappy: which os?
1096 2012-08-17 23:44:07 <sunshinehappy> GNU/Linux
1097 2012-08-17 23:45:22 <sunshinehappy> it says fatal error: openssl/bn.h: No such file or directory. but pkg-config --cflags openssl says -I/usr/local/ssl/include and I have /usr/local/ssl/include/openssl/bn.h
1098 2012-08-17 23:45:53 <sipa> i doubt bitcoin's makefile will look there
1099 2012-08-17 23:46:08 <sipa> you may need to change the path in the makefile manually
1100 2012-08-17 23:46:10 <sunshinehappy> oh I can edit the make file
1101 2012-08-17 23:46:12 <sunshinehappy> thank you!
1102 2012-08-17 23:46:27 Herodes has joined
1103 2012-08-17 23:47:08 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: He who laughs last, thinks slowest)
1104 2012-08-17 23:48:18 <sunshinehappy> export OPENSSL_LIB_PATH=/usr/local/ssl/lib ; export OPENSSL_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/local/ssl/include/
1105 2012-08-17 23:48:22 <sunshinehappy> befor running makefile helps
1106 2012-08-17 23:48:29 <sunshinehappy> these paths came from pkg-config output
1107 2012-08-17 23:50:50 skeledrew1 has joined
1108 2012-08-17 23:51:11 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1109 2012-08-17 23:51:40 bakh has joined
1110 2012-08-17 23:53:19 RV___ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1111 2012-08-17 23:53:59 RV___ has joined
1112 2012-08-17 23:54:10 <sunshinehappy> export USE_UPNP=-
1113 2012-08-17 23:54:20 <sunshinehappy> but still it says fatal error: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory
1114 2012-08-17 23:54:21 <sunshinehappy> compilation terminated.
1115 2012-08-17 23:54:27 <sunshinehappy> can't I compile without UPNP?
1116 2012-08-17 23:55:28 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1117 2012-08-17 23:55:35 <sunshinehappy> oh you have to change that variable inside the makefile
1118 2012-08-17 23:56:03 Diapolo has left ()
1119 2012-08-17 23:56:27 <sipa> make USE_UPNP=
1120 2012-08-17 23:56:44 <sipa> or with a - after it; can't remember
1121 2012-08-17 23:57:26 BCBot has joined
1122 2012-08-17 23:57:37 <sunshinehappy> thanks
1123 2012-08-17 23:57:54 sunshinehappy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1124 2012-08-17 23:58:21 sunshinehappy has joined
1125 2012-08-17 23:58:22 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)