1 2012-08-18 00:01:07 Cablesaurus has joined
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   4 2012-08-18 00:11:18 <elkingrey> How do I create new receiving addresses on the electrum client?
   5 2012-08-18 00:16:03 <sunshinehappy> I don't know howo to use qmake :/
   6 2012-08-18 00:16:25 <sunshinehappy> the doc says just type qmake, but I have qmake-qt4 and running it just shows  me the command line flags
   7 2012-08-18 00:17:11 elkingrey has quit (Quit: Leaving)
   8 2012-08-18 00:17:57 <sipa> where do you run it?
   9 2012-08-18 00:18:18 <sipa> it needs to run in the directory with bitcoin-qt.pro
  10 2012-08-18 00:18:23 <sipa> so not the src subdir
  11 2012-08-18 00:19:07 <sunshinehappy> oh that was it! thank you very much
  12 2012-08-18 00:20:59 <amiller> bdb confuses me to no end, i don't understand the relation between the .dat files and all the other _db000.log files and such around there
  13 2012-08-18 00:21:15 <amiller> i'm able to do db_dump | db_load to get a copy of the blkindex.dat and then i can open that using bitcointools
  14 2012-08-18 00:21:28 <amiller> even when i open it as read only, it fills whatever new environment i have with the _db000.log files
  15 2012-08-18 00:21:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dunno, Ill check the settings, I dont remember that
  16 2012-08-18 00:21:52 <amiller> i can't open the actual blkindex.dat itself though with bitcointools
  17 2012-08-18 00:22:08 <sipa> those files are the shared-memory backed bdb space, so multiple processes can open the environment
  18 2012-08-18 00:22:12 <amiller> i can do what i want so i'm no longer 'stuck' but maybe if i figure this out then it will be more useful
  19 2012-08-18 00:22:36 <sipa> they should disappear when the bdb env shuts down cleanly
  20 2012-08-18 00:22:50 <amiller> if i delete them are they supposed to be rebuilt?
  21 2012-08-18 00:22:57 <sipa> yes
  22 2012-08-18 00:23:07 <sipa> they exist when bdb is running
  23 2012-08-18 00:24:02 <sipa> or are you talking about the files in the database/ subdir?
  24 2012-08-18 00:24:39 <amiller> i might mean those too
  25 2012-08-18 00:24:50 <sipa> those are the transaction log files
  26 2012-08-18 00:24:50 <amiller> thought those were bitcoin specific but perhaps they're also part of the 'bdb environment'
  27 2012-08-18 00:24:54 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  28 2012-08-18 00:25:04 <sipa> no they are not bitcoin specific eithrr
  29 2012-08-18 00:25:16 <sipa> but they serve a different purpose
  30 2012-08-18 00:26:34 <amiller> i roughly understand the purpose of a transaction log or commit journal, they're probably necessary to resolve corruption in the .dat file caused by interrupted operations?
  31 2012-08-18 00:26:43 <sipa> indeed
  32 2012-08-18 00:27:00 <sipa> like journaled filesystems
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  34 2012-08-18 00:28:11 <sipa> operations are written append-only to the log files, then those get processed into the main database area, and when the changes in the log files are committed to disk, they are deleted
  35 2012-08-18 00:28:23 <sipa> that's the stuff in the database/ subdir
  36 2012-08-18 00:28:44 <sipa> the main database area is the .dat files
  37 2012-08-18 00:29:52 <sipa> and the _stuff files are basically mmap'ed parts of bdb's process space, so other processes can access it too
  38 2012-08-18 00:30:06 <sipa> (which we don't use)
  39 2012-08-18 00:31:51 <amiller> db_stat -d blkindex.dat  _intermittently_ gives me an error like "Program version 5.1 doesn't match environment version 4.8"
  40 2012-08-18 00:32:06 <amiller> i'm trying to correlate it with whether or not bitcoind is running
  41 2012-08-18 00:32:14 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  42 2012-08-18 00:32:25 <sipa> ok, so you have an environment from 4.8 which isn't cleaned up
  43 2012-08-18 00:32:33 <sipa> and trying to open it in 5.1
  44 2012-08-18 00:32:41 <sipa> that's just not supported
  45 2012-08-18 00:33:40 <amiller> how can i tell if/when the environment is cleaned up? database/*.log should be empty?
  46 2012-08-18 00:34:11 <sipa> yes
  47 2012-08-18 00:34:19 EPiSKiNG- has joined
  48 2012-08-18 00:34:26 <sipa> open it with 4.8 code and shutdown correctly
  49 2012-08-18 00:34:37 <sipa> bitcoind always cleans up at shutdown, iirc
  50 2012-08-18 00:38:06 <amiller> 1) i'm able to run db5.1_stat even while bitcoind is running and database/*.log is churning  2) after a clean shutdown (bitcoind stop), one log file in database still remains, but i can still db5.1_stat
  51 2012-08-18 00:38:32 <sipa> is that a 4.8 bitcoind?
  52 2012-08-18 00:38:54 <amiller> yeah, i just built it from github
  53 2012-08-18 00:39:09 <sipa> linked against 4.8?
  54 2012-08-18 00:39:21 <sipa> in that case, run with -detachdb
  55 2012-08-18 00:39:37 <sipa> recent bitcoind's don't clean up by default anymore
  56 2012-08-18 00:39:44 <amiller> ah hm no bitcoind is linked with 5.1
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  61 2012-08-18 00:41:25 <amiller> anyway i wanted to say after 3) if i try to read the blkindex.dat with python bitcointools, i get the unrecognized format error, and THEN db5.1_stat no longer works
  62 2012-08-18 00:41:55 <amiller> so somehow the bsddb destructively modifies the environment even when it fails to open readonly
  63 2012-08-18 00:41:55 <sipa> what is the problem, actually?
  64 2012-08-18 00:42:04 <sipa> oh it may
  65 2012-08-18 00:42:13 <sipa> i don't trust it at all anymore
  66 2012-08-18 00:42:28 <sipa> it is just not intended to do smooth automatic updates
  67 2012-08-18 00:43:35 andrew_wmf has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  68 2012-08-18 00:43:43 <sipa> it is intended for large databases on well-maintained servers that do tape backups of all database transaction logs
  69 2012-08-18 00:43:50 <sipa> and in that case, it is rock solid
  70 2012-08-18 00:44:13 <sipa> using it for an end-user application is a mistake
  71 2012-08-18 00:44:16 <amiller> there's an effort underway to switch to leveldb, right
  72 2012-08-18 00:44:22 <sipa> yes
  73 2012-08-18 00:44:43 <sipa> i hope in 0.8
  74 2012-08-18 00:45:13 * jgarzik will definitely add a leveldb module to python-bitcoin (pynode's lib)
  75 2012-08-18 00:45:32 <amiller> i think i'm just going to count my blessings that i can read blkindex.dat at all with bitcointools after copying it with db_dump | db_load
  76 2012-08-18 00:45:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I changed it to something different, though the settings aren't entirely clear as to what, exactly, each one would do...have to wait and see
  77 2012-08-18 00:46:17 <amiller> anyway even with detachdb, it leaves at least one logfile remainng
  78 2012-08-18 00:46:28 <amiller> i guess i could try to figure out what it is that is modified by a failed attempt at reading
  79 2012-08-18 00:46:40 <sipa> what fails reading?
  80 2012-08-18 00:47:08 <amiller> python bsddb (5.1) fails to read blkindex.dat
  81 2012-08-18 00:47:12 tsche has joined
  82 2012-08-18 00:47:20 <sipa> but bitcoind can read it?
  83 2012-08-18 00:47:26 <amiller> right
  84 2012-08-18 00:48:00 <sipa> whatverror does bsddb give?
  85 2012-08-18 00:48:00 <amiller> and db5.1_stat can read it, even while bitcoind is running, at least until i _attempt_ to read it with bsddb, and then even db5.1_stat can no longer read it, even if bitcoind is shutdown
  86 2012-08-18 00:48:11 <amiller> DBInvalidArgError: (22, 'Invalid argument -- __db_meta_setup: /home/music/.bitcoin/blkindex.dat: unexpected file type or format')
  87 2012-08-18 00:48:31 <sipa> and what do you need bsddb for?
  88 2012-08-18 00:48:51 <amiller> for gavin's python library, bitcointools
  89 2012-08-18 00:48:56 <sipa> why?
  90 2012-08-18 00:49:20 <amiller> i want to use python to scrape blockchain data and prototype a merkle tree
  91 2012-08-18 00:49:26 <sipa> ah
  92 2012-08-18 00:49:45 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  93 2012-08-18 00:50:23 <sipa> if you run my branch (ultraprune), you get the pruned coin set indexed by txid in separate bdb file
  94 2012-08-18 00:50:50 <sipa> you could just dump it with db5.1_dump, and use it as is
  95 2012-08-18 00:51:41 BCBot has joined
  96 2012-08-18 00:52:01 <amiller> yeah, at minimum i'm planning on using that branch to test my merkle trees for equivalence to yours
  97 2012-08-18 00:52:05 one_zero has joined
  98 2012-08-18 00:52:22 <sipa> i don't have any merkle trees
  99 2012-08-18 00:52:28 <sipa> (yet)
 100 2012-08-18 00:53:53 <amiller> i mean they should represent equivalent utxo sets
 101 2012-08-18 00:53:58 <sipa> sure
 102 2012-08-18 00:57:50 <jgarzik> amiller: use pynode :)
 103 2012-08-18 00:57:52 <amiller> okay the 'destructive modification' is caused by bsddb leaving some __db.log stuff around when it fails to open, if i delete those then db5.1_stat can read the blkindex in all other cases
 104 2012-08-18 00:58:00 <amiller> jgarzik, parse blkindex.dat :p
 105 2012-08-18 00:58:19 <jgarzik> amiller: same information
 106 2012-08-18 00:59:06 <jgarzik> amiller: has to be, in order to fully verify the blockchain
 107 2012-08-18 00:59:58 <sipa> well, not entirely
 108 2012-08-18 01:00:09 <sipa> blkindex.dat contains a lot of redundant information
 109 2012-08-18 01:00:57 <amiller> def getblock(self, blkhash)  <--- okay that's pretty good
 110 2012-08-18 01:01:25 <amiller> how would i use pynode to get blocks in order from 0(geneis) 1, 2, etc
 111 2012-08-18 01:01:40 <sipa> you just want the blocks?
 112 2012-08-18 01:01:43 <amiller> is there any way better than scanning backwards
 113 2012-08-18 01:01:53 <sipa> you don't need blkindex.dat at all for that
 114 2012-08-18 01:02:27 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 115 2012-08-18 01:02:34 * amiller doesn't know what he's doing but is grateful for all the suggestions
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 118 2012-08-18 01:03:27 <sipa> you can just parse blk00001.dat for that
 119 2012-08-18 01:03:46 <sipa> it contains the blocks, one by one, serialized and concatenated
 120 2012-08-18 01:04:09 <sipa> each prefixed with a 4-byte magic, and a 4-byte length
 121 2012-08-18 01:04:30 <amiller> nah i want to be able to skip around, i'm pretty eager to use either pynode or bitcointools so i don't have to remember how to parse it myself
 122 2012-08-18 01:04:43 <jgarzik> amiller: pynode has a height index (hah! not even bitcoin has that :))
 123 2012-08-18 01:05:05 <amiller> fwiw bsddb can't read blk0001.dat (in situ) any better than blkindex.dat
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 125 2012-08-18 01:05:20 <jgarzik> amiller: look at testscript.py for an example of iterating from block #0 ... block #193000 or whatever
 126 2012-08-18 01:05:22 <sipa> amiller: blk0001.dat is not a database file
 127 2012-08-18 01:05:27 <amiller> sipa, oh
 128 2012-08-18 01:05:30 <amiller> lol.
 129 2012-08-18 01:05:38 <sipa> as i said, it is just the blocks concatenated
 130 2012-08-18 01:08:44 <amiller> Fair enough. I'll try pynode for now though.
 131 2012-08-18 01:08:52 <jgarzik> amiller: replace the bits in testscript.py between start_time and end_time with your own per-block examination code
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 133 2012-08-18 01:09:06 * jgarzik disappears temporarily for baby nighttime
 134 2012-08-18 01:09:55 <sipa> amiller: sounds like the easiest solution for you
 135 2012-08-18 01:11:02 <amiller> i _did_ get bitcointools to work just fine, just by copying out the blkindex database to a new environment
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 148 2012-08-18 01:31:51 <TYDIRocks> Does anyone know a simple system to retrieve an address from a private key in .Net?
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 153 2012-08-18 01:53:28 <Karmaon1> TYDIRocks: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
 154 2012-08-18 01:54:15 <jgarzik> amiller: back, if you have any pynode questions
 155 2012-08-18 01:54:27 <jgarzik> amiller: I'm uploading a database snapshot, in case that saves people some time
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 159 2012-08-18 01:57:10 <amiller> jgarzik, i saw you have a whole python script evaluator in there but your readme says you aren't doing that validation, i assume that's something you're working on
 160 2012-08-18 01:57:16 Gladamas has quit (Quit: switching computers, bb in 2 min)
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 162 2012-08-18 01:57:39 <jgarzik> amiller: the library supports script evaluation fully, and testscript.py exercises that.
 163 2012-08-18 01:57:49 <jgarzik> amiller: pynode (the network node) does not perform script evaluation.
 164 2012-08-18 01:59:18 andrew_wmf has joined
 165 2012-08-18 01:59:19 <jgarzik> amiller: so, one just needs to be hooked up to the other
 166 2012-08-18 01:59:46 BCBot has joined
 167 2012-08-18 01:59:46 <jgarzik> amiller: script evaluation is slow, so it requires some thought (e.g. multi-processing)
 168 2012-08-18 02:00:35 <jgarzik> amiller: dbck.py will validate the entire blockchain, _except_ for script, in maybe 1 hour or less.  testscript.py will validate all scripts in the blockchain in... maybe 8-10 hours
 169 2012-08-18 02:01:10 <jgarzik> amiller: a good python hacker could probably reduce that time differential, because a lot of it involves copying required by SignatureHash()
 170 2012-08-18 02:01:18 <amiller> so chaindb is a database of your own construction
 171 2012-08-18 02:01:40 <amiller> ah it's of the gnu dbm variety
 172 2012-08-18 02:01:55 <Diablo-D3> "Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan” is an anagram for “My ultimate Ayn Rand Porn."
 173 2012-08-18 02:03:01 <jgarzik> amiller: yeah it's pretty crappy ;)  quickest solution to get a node up and running.  will be replaced with my own custom db in a bit.
 174 2012-08-18 02:03:15 <jgarzik> but hey, it works, and you have indices for your queries
 175 2012-08-18 02:05:37 Gladamas has joined
 176 2012-08-18 02:05:41 <amiller> yeah that's just fine with me, unlike bsddb btree (wtf), it's at least got the standard interface. I know of some tools like 'shove' that wrap all of the *dbm
 177 2012-08-18 02:07:40 gavin_airplane has joined
 178 2012-08-18 02:07:44 <gmaxwell> gavin_airplane: What have you done??
 179 2012-08-18 02:07:52 <gavin_airplane> what have I done with what?
 180 2012-08-18 02:07:57 <gmaxwell> ;;ticker
 181 2012-08-18 02:07:57 <gribble> Best bid: 12.15607, Best ask: 12.15608, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 12.15607, 24 hour volume: 224245, 24 hour low: 10.6, 24 hour high: 15.4
 182 2012-08-18 02:08:10 <gmaxwell> gavin_airplane: you vanish for a few days and everything goes crazy!
 183 2012-08-18 02:08:15 <gavin_airplane> oh, that. Yeah, what's up with that?
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 185 2012-08-18 02:08:41 <gavin_airplane> Maybe it'll settle down at 11.
 186 2012-08-18 02:08:45 <gavin_airplane> (I hope)
 187 2012-08-18 02:08:53 <TYDIRocks> Is there a better walkthrough on how to get from a private key -> public key?
 188 2012-08-18 02:09:42 <gavin_airplane> TYDIRocks: there's a good wikipedia article on elliptic curve crypto that walks you through it.  Sort of.
 189 2012-08-18 02:10:13 <TYDIRocks> I'm on the bitcoin wiki right now but I'm confused on the private -> public part
 190 2012-08-18 02:10:24 hnz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 191 2012-08-18 02:10:49 <gmaxwell> gavin_airplane: hopefully unrelated but crazy people have been interpreting the comment you made to some journalist about a future announcement as meaning crazy things like some government adopting bitcoin officially and other such dramatic things.
 192 2012-08-18 02:12:56 <gavin_airplane> gmaxwell: I saw that thread. I should just stop talking to journalists.
 193 2012-08-18 02:13:15 <gmaxwell> :)
 194 2012-08-18 02:13:50 hnz_ has joined
 195 2012-08-18 02:13:56 <gmaxwell> I think what ended up reported wasn't anything terrible (which is amazing in and of itself); people can't resist a chance to be crazy though. :)
 196 2012-08-18 02:14:43 <gavin_airplane> gmaxwell: I was tempted to post some crackpot theories in that thread myself
 197 2012-08-18 02:14:54 <jgarzik> oh pooh
 198 2012-08-18 02:14:56 <gavin_airplane> (it's no fun not being able to play along)
 199 2012-08-18 02:14:58 <jgarzik> it's a fun thread
 200 2012-08-18 02:15:02 <gmaxwell> Jeff's post is good.
 201 2012-08-18 02:15:03 <jgarzik> harmless
 202 2012-08-18 02:15:19 <jgarzik> there's less speculation and craziness in that thread than most, even
 203 2012-08-18 02:15:28 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 204 2012-08-18 02:15:37 <gavin_airplane> We should take it and make it the official Bitcoin Project roadmap.
 205 2012-08-18 02:15:41 <gmaxwell> well, it's going beyond that— of course, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/ydeo2/what_is_up_with_the_btc_price/c5ujf0x  four steps removed and the US switch to bitcoin will be reported as fact. :) But the telephone game is no one's fault.
 206 2012-08-18 02:17:07 <TYDIRocks> So is there a tutorial on getting from private -> Public?
 207 2012-08-18 02:17:16 BCBot has joined
 208 2012-08-18 02:17:41 <gavin_airplane> TYDIRocks: what are you trying to do?
 209 2012-08-18 02:17:51 <gavin_airplane> TYDIRocks: (on a higher-level....)
 210 2012-08-18 02:18:38 <TYDIRocks> I created a program that makes it easier to import private keys into bitcoin. I'm wanting to add a feature that displays the address before they import to make sure it is the address they desire.
 211 2012-08-18 02:18:55 <TYDIRocks> (you can check out the current program here if you want: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101161.0)
 212 2012-08-18 02:19:04 * jgarzik needs to add bitcoin address code to pynode
 213 2012-08-18 02:19:39 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: you should get your source posted so people stop accusing you of being a wallet stealer author. ;)
 214 2012-08-18 02:19:53 <TYDIRocks> I did post it look at the OP! :p
 215 2012-08-18 02:19:55 <gavin_airplane> TYDIRocks: ah.  hmm.  you need an ECDSA-capable crypto library.
 216 2012-08-18 02:20:05 <gavin_airplane> Well, ECC-capable crypto library.
 217 2012-08-18 02:20:15 <gmaxwell> TYDIRocks: cool, I missed the update.
 218 2012-08-18 02:20:23 <TYDIRocks> It's fine, seem a lot of people are lol
 219 2012-08-18 02:21:27 <TYDIRocks> And gavin_airplane thanks, not sure if I'll be able to swing that lol
 220 2012-08-18 02:22:08 <gavin_airplane> TYDIRocks: bitcoin uses openssl to do the ECC point multiplication to go from private to public key
 221 2012-08-18 02:22:52 <TYDIRocks> gavin_airplane, Alright thanks, I'll look into using that
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 231 2012-08-18 02:35:01 <bonks> So I sent coins while offline, then went online, synced the last 18 hours of blocks, received some coins from mining, but still the coins I sent while offline isn't showing up in the receivers wallet or blockchain.info
 232 2012-08-18 02:35:08 <bonks> Is this normal?
 233 2012-08-18 02:35:33 robocoin has joined
 234 2012-08-18 02:36:08 <gmaxwell> bonks: it will only retransmit fairly infrequently... it waits a random interval (I vaguely recall up to a half hor) after hearing a block without the transaction in it.
 235 2012-08-18 02:37:09 <bonks> I see, okay.
 236 2012-08-18 02:37:17 <bonks> I take it there is no way to froce a retransmit?
 237 2012-08-18 02:37:23 <bonks> force even
 238 2012-08-18 02:37:54 <bonks> And I have to keep the client open and connected until this happens
 239 2012-08-18 02:38:50 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 240 2012-08-18 02:39:34 <gmaxwell> bonks: you can force a retransmit with the current git version of bitcoin.
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 242 2012-08-18 02:40:19 <gavin_airplane> bonks: the 0.7 release will have a weird, roundabout way of forcing a retransmit, but otherwise you should be patient (and go online before sending next time)
 243 2012-08-18 02:40:23 <bonks> Nice, I'll just wait, it'll probably take as long for me to figure that out
 244 2012-08-18 02:40:47 <jgarzik> I thought it did a retransmit at startup?
 245 2012-08-18 02:40:49 <bonks> gavin_airplane: Gotcha. Actually I was online but my proxy was offline :)
 246 2012-08-18 02:40:53 <jgarzik> try restarting
 247 2012-08-18 02:41:04 <bonks> I did restart (the client), I can try again though
 248 2012-08-18 02:41:18 <gavin_airplane> I think it waits a random amount of time after a restart.  Could be wrong, though....
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 250 2012-08-18 02:42:18 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: nah, retransmit right at start would pretty throughly deanonymize users.
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 252 2012-08-18 02:42:48 <bonks> At least there's a reason, I can live with it. I'll wait! thx guys
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 261 2012-08-18 03:04:42 <amiller> mm the largest hash we've ever found is larger than the second largest by like 4 bits
 262 2012-08-18 03:04:57 <amiller> er nvm that's old data since i didn't finish the whole chain yet
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 264 2012-08-18 03:08:01 <amiller> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000000001e8d6829a8a21adc5d38d0a473b144b6765798e61f98bd1d was a really sweet hash for its time
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 268 2012-08-18 03:26:03 <weex> amiller: looking for the smallest hash of all time?
 269 2012-08-18 03:26:22 <weex> i guess it's probably pretty recent
 270 2012-08-18 03:26:39 <Luke-Jr> I wouldn't mind any block headers with smallest nonce ;)
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 275 2012-08-18 03:28:21 <weex> Luke-Jr: what does that get you?
 276 2012-08-18 03:28:23 <amiller> gonna have some neat graphs incoming
 277 2012-08-18 03:28:24 <amiller> http://i.imgur.com/MVCBR.png
 278 2012-08-18 03:28:32 <Luke-Jr> weex: faster detection of certain braindead FPGAs
 279 2012-08-18 03:28:39 <amiller> that's a scatter plot of all the hash values, stretched out on the x axis according to 'cumulative work'
 280 2012-08-18 03:29:08 <amiller> imagine if every single hash ever computed for bitcoin represented one 'tick' of time
 281 2012-08-18 03:29:16 <amiller> more hash power means time goes faster
 282 2012-08-18 03:29:36 <amiller> the distributions of the upper levels are scale invariant
 283 2012-08-18 03:30:02 <amiller> that's up through block 140k
 284 2012-08-18 03:30:19 <amiller> which represents 3 quarters of real-time but probably a much smaller portion of 'hash time'
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 286 2012-08-18 03:31:43 <weex> would you say dots towards the upper left are overachievers then?
 287 2012-08-18 03:31:59 <amiller> that's a good way of putting it
 288 2012-08-18 03:32:25 <amiller> you don't get extra credit for overachieving, but you also aren't likely to toss it out
 289 2012-08-18 03:33:07 <weex> does it make more sense then to have the x-axis be log?
 290 2012-08-18 03:33:12 <quintopia> amiller: the y axis in that plot is "number of 0 bits"?
 291 2012-08-18 03:33:19 <amiller> quintopia, that's right
 292 2012-08-18 03:33:36 <amiller> weex, only in the sense that bitcoin difficulty has had roughly exponential growth
 293 2012-08-18 03:33:43 <amiller> if we were in a steady state, then it would be flat
 294 2012-08-18 03:34:08 <weex> the red line is the target over time?
 295 2012-08-18 03:34:32 <amiller> weex, yeah, or at least target over 'cumulative work' or 'hash time' or however you want to put it
 296 2012-08-18 03:35:11 <weex> always fun to see new graphs
 297 2012-08-18 03:35:51 <amiller> http://i.imgur.com/0cfqq.png this is the equivalent graph but in terms of 'normal time' or block height
 298 2012-08-18 03:37:12 <amiller> you can compare the shape of this to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2345.msg31405#msg31405
 299 2012-08-18 03:38:05 <amiller> but it's the hashtime graph that really represents the underlying 'scale invariance' of the bitcoin algortihm
 300 2012-08-18 03:39:14 <weex> isn't the zero bits a simplification though, i thought the target was more granular than just # of zero bits
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 302 2012-08-18 03:39:42 <weex> sorry i don't know what i'm saying
 303 2012-08-18 03:39:59 <amiller> you're right - but it doesn't matter too much in this case
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 305 2012-08-18 03:40:34 <amiller> it would probably look a lot nicer if i plotted it directly
 306 2012-08-18 03:41:44 <amiller> wtf i just downloaded tcatm's nightly, but it just has blocks, not blkindex.dat
 307 2012-08-18 03:41:56 <amiller> if i just turn on bitcoind will it update the blkindex.dat for me
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 309 2012-08-18 03:42:32 <Luke-Jr> amiller: those are deprecated anyhow, and using blkindex is a security concern
 310 2012-08-18 03:42:32 <weex> what are you doing with the data? mysql?
 311 2012-08-18 03:42:36 <Luke-Jr> especially as they're not signed
 312 2012-08-18 03:42:59 <Luke-Jr> amiller: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=94881
 313 2012-08-18 03:48:04 * amiller tries out ultraprune
 314 2012-08-18 03:49:53 <amiller> wonder if bitcointools will work there without modification
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 322 2012-08-18 04:05:26 <amiller> hmm, the normal client actually seems to keep track of a cumulative work value exactly as i'd like it to, that's pretty cool
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 326 2012-08-18 04:20:31 <jgarzik> amiller: if you have a fast connection, you can download this chain database for pynode: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/chaindb.tar.bz2 (2.3G)
 327 2012-08-18 04:21:03 <amiller> thanks; i will
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 329 2012-08-18 04:28:19 <amiller> hah, i was right - that _is_ the largest hash
 330 2012-08-18 04:28:26 <Luke-Jr> largest?
 331 2012-08-18 04:28:30 <amiller> smallest*
 332 2012-08-18 04:29:47 Gladamas has joined
 333 2012-08-18 04:30:01 <amiller> and in fact there is exactly one with that number of zeros
 334 2012-08-18 04:30:59 <amiller> 00000000000000001e8d6829a8a21adc5d38d0a473b144b6765798e61f98bd1d has 67 zero bits, and the second smallest hash has 66 bits
 335 2012-08-18 04:31:06 <amiller> so, i win my own bet
 336 2012-08-18 04:31:34 <Gladamas> amiller: congrats now you have to pay yourself
 337 2012-08-18 04:31:38 <Gladamas> :P
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 344 2012-08-18 04:59:13 <jgarzik> youch!
 345 2012-08-18 04:59:32 * jgarzik finds some corrupted data on his hard drive.  -checkblocks=0 found it...
 346 2012-08-18 04:59:34 <jgarzik> http://pastebin.com/aBzddGNw
 347 2012-08-18 04:59:47 <jgarzik> What's interesting is the behavior once it is found.
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 351 2012-08-18 05:17:02 <jgarzik> yes, that's a 60,000-block reorg triggered there
 352 2012-08-18 05:17:23 <jgarzik> hate to see a bit-flip in block #1...
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 363 2012-08-18 05:48:25 <amiller> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98986.msg1109747#msg1109747 here are the best graphs i could put together
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 373 2012-08-18 06:23:21 <c_k> amiller: neat :)
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 378 2012-08-18 06:54:39 <amiller> gmaxwell, TD[gone], I really dislike the Agents wiki article, I posted some comments on the talk page https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Agents
 379 2012-08-18 06:55:02 <amiller> my objections center around the impossibility of program obfuscation as would be required for an actual "self replicating program"
 380 2012-08-18 06:56:11 <amiller> i don't have any problem with StorJ itself, but the scope/language of the article exceeds that by quite a bit
 381 2012-08-18 06:58:49 <gmaxwell> amiller: obfuscation is perfectly possible so long as the program does no IO and never halts. ;)
 382 2012-08-18 06:59:27 <gmaxwell> In any case, don't look at me— in the storj description I intentionally avoided depending on obfuscation because I know the pratical impossibility of it.
 383 2012-08-18 06:59:39 * amiller laughs with one hand
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 385 2012-08-18 07:00:48 <amiller> well you did start the 'self replication' and 'artificial lifeform' idea
 386 2012-08-18 07:01:02 <amiller> it's the 'artificial lifeform' part that implies the program itself is being replicated, not just the storage services
 387 2012-08-18 07:01:20 <amiller> either way it looks like mike hearn wrote most of that page
 388 2012-08-18 07:02:01 RazielZ has joined
 389 2012-08-18 07:02:09 <gmaxwell> amiller: So you're a replica of your mother?
 390 2012-08-18 07:02:11 <gmaxwell> :)
 391 2012-08-18 07:02:42 <amiller> you're mom's a trusted platform module.
 392 2012-08-18 07:02:47 <amiller> your*
 393 2012-08-18 07:02:48 <amiller> w/ev
 394 2012-08-18 07:03:45 <amiller> ok well when i get around to it i'll diminish the scope of that page and mention the obfuscation results, just figured i'd warn you first
 395 2012-08-18 07:04:34 <SomeoneWeird> hahah
 396 2012-08-18 07:06:11 <gmaxwell> amiller: well you should point to the positive obfuscation results too (e.g. Gentry's fully homorphic encryption)
 397 2012-08-18 07:06:13 tonikt has joined
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 399 2012-08-18 07:06:40 <amiller> right - so that requires the agent to be 'in the loop' for every transaction
 400 2012-08-18 07:06:50 <amiller> as long as the 'agent' is the thing running on the TPM then we're in agreement
 401 2012-08-18 07:07:09 <amiller> but it's not the agent that replicates, just the agent's toys
 402 2012-08-18 07:07:33 Anduck has joined
 403 2012-08-18 07:08:01 <gmaxwell> offspring. :) In the same way that sexually reproducing organisms don't produce clones.
 404 2012-08-18 07:08:16 yellowhat has joined
 405 2012-08-18 07:09:11 <amiller> are you saying that a TPM can rent another TPM?
 406 2012-08-18 07:09:28 <gmaxwell> It can rent something claiming to be another TPM at least.
 407 2012-08-18 07:09:29 <amiller> like if my mom gave birth to a cabbage patch doll, it wouldn't count as a lifeform
 408 2012-08-18 07:09:37 <amiller> yeah
 409 2012-08-18 07:09:55 <amiller> this is really requiring a lot out of the TPM idea
 410 2012-08-18 07:09:56 <gmaxwell> Yea, and sometimes humans give birth to failed humans.
 411 2012-08-18 07:10:50 <gmaxwell> I don't think it requires a TPM at all in pratice, though it would obviously be improved by one. I also didn't invoke one in the storj description intentionally.
 412 2012-08-18 07:12:26 <gmaxwell> (trees might be better lifeform examples, in that they're also fixed in one place and reproduce by broadcast and hope)
 413 2012-08-18 07:13:23 <amiller> i think we've gotten as much as we can out of that analogy
 414 2012-08-18 07:13:29 <amiller> you clearly understand/agree with my point about obfuscation
 415 2012-08-18 07:13:36 <amiller> everything else is just about the semantics of the language
 416 2012-08-18 07:13:57 <amiller> i'm saying that the way it's described, it suggests a completely different mechanism to almost everyone that reads it
 417 2012-08-18 07:14:36 <gmaxwell> Yea well, I didn't write it, if I did it wouldn't have done that. :)
 418 2012-08-18 07:14:38 <amiller> even though storj is technically within the lines, most readers are going to imagine a different kind of mechanism, the kind that would imply program obfuscation
 419 2012-08-18 07:14:58 <gmaxwell> oh well, they shouldn't— in fact I point out specifically that it can't trust the children to behave.
 420 2012-08-18 07:15:34 <gmaxwell> (in particular because I envisioned humans providing bootstraping codes, so it would have to use an economic hack to discourage defection)
 421 2012-08-18 07:16:40 <gmaxwell> I actually think most people haven't thought about the subject enough to think that obfuscation is possible in the first place. :)
 422 2012-08-18 07:17:40 <amiller> the vision is of a program that runs entirely by itself, and it hops from rental server to rental server as needed
 423 2012-08-18 07:17:46 <amiller> you interact with the program itself, not any of the hosts
 424 2012-08-18 07:18:02 <amiller> if you send the program bitcoins, it spends it according to the predefined rules it's coded with
 425 2012-08-18 07:18:15 <amiller> when you talk to the program, you get proof that it's running correctly
 426 2012-08-18 07:18:59 <amiller> those are the ideal visions that i am pretty sure most people reading the wiki article or your forum post will get (i did, but yeah i also spent about a month thinking about all the great things you could do with program obfuscation before i found out it's been tried)
 427 2012-08-18 07:19:36 <amiller> i'm rereading through the wiki and your post and my guess is TD understands obfuscation limits too since i can't point to anything really _wrong_ in there, so i may be overreacting here
 428 2012-08-18 07:19:41 <gmaxwell> I think you should go read what I wrote, because I spent most of the words on the reproduction part, and I think it was quite clear that every hosted instance was seperate. (Because I knew things like the obfuscation results long before writing that)
 429 2012-08-18 07:20:13 <amiller> someone who doesn't know better won't see the line that you were careful not to cross
 430 2012-08-18 07:20:28 <amiller> so i'd be happy with a section about program obfuscation that at least makes that line explicit
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 433 2012-08-18 07:25:17 <gmaxwell> Perhaps, but thats always the case. I mean, you take the risk by introducing complicated ideas just to say they don't work. E.g.  "Here is 2Na + 2H2O ---> 2NaOH + H2 ; and here is why the liberated H2 doesn't spontaniously undergo nuclear fusion" (and then everyone has forgotten about ionic bonds and is wondering about nuclear chemistry)
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 437 2012-08-18 07:30:57 <amiller> it's a matter of subjective judgment then - i've stated my opinion, maybe we could ask some other people to review it too?
 438 2012-08-18 07:33:31 <gmaxwell> Don't look at me, I only claim responsiblity for my post.
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 463 2012-08-18 08:25:48 <Imperial> Does the bitcoin client have any of plans of introducing protocol handling links, such as    donatebtc://<address>:<amount> ? -- or is this idea too risky?
 464 2012-08-18 08:26:34 <gmaxwell> We have URL support, its just not currently activated due to some platform implementation issues. It's not terribly risky, as it does prompt you to accept.
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 466 2012-08-18 08:28:19 <Imperial> Thought so, good to know. I just found https://propster.me/ and it's like flattr but with bitcoins, and AFAIK all he does have it show the bitcoin address to donate to the people, I was expecting an easy to use button to donote mBTC easily. Great to know it's planned
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 474 2012-08-18 08:39:24 <wumpus> bitcoin: URIs work, you currently have to drag/drop them to the client window to use them though
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 552 2012-08-18 12:01:38 <Eliel> amiller: if the program is built with neural networks as a major part of it's operation, that alone should be enough obfuscation to prevent analysis or simple modification.
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 587 2012-08-18 13:17:57 <killerstorm> hi. Does 'multisig escrow' exist is any usable form right now? Is there a front end anywhere? Services which use it?
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 607 2012-08-18 13:59:29 <denisx> anybody has the email contact of m0mchil?
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 617 2012-08-18 14:24:02 <DrHaribo> Safe mode: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
 618 2012-08-18 14:24:10 <DrHaribo> anyone else seeing this? running bitcoind 0.6.3
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 622 2012-08-18 14:29:31 <DrHaribo> ERROR: FetchInputs() : 85bed80631 mempool Tx prev not found 76f76cd9e7
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 624 2012-08-18 14:29:40 <DrHaribo> I take it getting a lot of these is a bad sign? ;)
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 631 2012-08-18 14:57:00 <killerstorm> hi. Does 'multisig escrow' exist is any usable form right now? Is there a front end anywhere? Services which use it?
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 693 2012-08-18 17:14:34 <Joric> 'The Bitcoin Project will be making a major announcement in September that should contribute some stability' what's that?
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 723 2012-08-18 18:27:08 <sipa> killerstorm: no, the upcoming 0.7 release will have low-level RPC calls that allow construction of multisig transactions, but for end-user applications you'll have to wait a bit longer
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 728 2012-08-18 18:36:27 <killerstorm> I wait for it about a year already... Maybe I should implement it myself?
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 733 2012-08-18 18:36:43 <killerstorm> That was my plan actually, I just wanted to check that there is no existing UI which does this.
 734 2012-08-18 18:36:59 <killerstorm> As in UI in alternative clients, or perhaps some addon or patch.
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 736 2012-08-18 18:38:15 <killerstorm> A year ago I wanted to to make a financial derivative trading platform which use secure escrow. (So it won't be another bitcoinica/bitdaytrade/however that crap was called.)
 737 2012-08-18 18:38:27 <killerstorm> I decided to wait a bit until this escrow is implemented...
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 739 2012-08-18 18:45:28 <Luke-Jr> killerstorm: it has only been supported by the network since April..
 740 2012-08-18 18:45:31 <amiller> Eliel, that's totally not a reliable property of neural networks :/
 741 2012-08-18 18:45:52 <Luke-Jr> killerstorm: also, you should probably make it a webapp so users don't worry over trojans
 742 2012-08-18 18:46:04 <amiller> you (everyone) should really read this article, it's specifically about program obfuscation but it's broadly applicable http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~boaz/Papers/obf_informal.html
 743 2012-08-18 18:46:11 <amiller> it describes "fuzzy security" vs "well defined security"
 744 2012-08-18 18:46:46 <killerstorm> Luke-Jr: Do you mean web wallet?
 745 2012-08-18 18:47:09 <Eliel> amiller: a perfect solution is not necessary. It's enough that some variations accomplish the goal.
 746 2012-08-18 18:47:19 <Luke-Jr> killerstorm: no
 747 2012-08-18 18:47:32 <amiller> Eliel, it's not about a solution being perfect, but about whether the goal is properly defined
 748 2012-08-18 18:47:58 <amiller> if you don't define your goal, you can't tell whether an implementation accomplishes it or not
 749 2012-08-18 18:48:24 <killerstorm> Luke-Jr: Then how will users make txns which spend multisig outputs? In command line?
 750 2012-08-18 18:48:55 <amiller> so when you say "prevent analysis or modification", do you mean that _some people_ won't analyze it?
 751 2012-08-18 18:49:28 <amiller> another good variation is to include a comment at the top of the code that says "please don't modify"
 752 2012-08-18 18:49:31 <amiller> that will also prevent analysis
 753 2012-08-18 18:50:12 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 754 2012-08-18 18:52:39 <Eliel> amiller: the problem is that the software has to be executable, which requires that it's parseable. This is in direct odds with obfuscation goals. Therefore, I suggested neural networks because while they're executed, their operation is much more complex and harder to analyze/understand.
 755 2012-08-18 18:53:11 <amiller> why neural networks? why not just use jsminify or something?
 756 2012-08-18 18:53:38 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
 757 2012-08-18 18:53:56 <amiller> when you say 'much more complex' i'm pretty sure you have no way of quantifying or even stating what you mean by that
 758 2012-08-18 18:54:10 <Eliel> amiller: you would be correct.
 759 2012-08-18 18:55:08 <Eliel> amiller: are you saying that neural network is easier or similar in difficulty to analyze as regualar code that's been ran through jsminify?
 760 2012-08-18 18:55:49 <amiller> i'm trying to train myself to reserve phrases like "difficult to analyze" for when i have a precise statement to go along with it
 761 2012-08-18 18:57:13 <Eliel> but basically, I think multi-sig offers a potential solution to untrustworthy hosting.
 762 2012-08-18 18:57:25 <Eliel> you don't need to obfuscate the private key
 763 2012-08-18 18:57:35 <amiller> it's obvious that i'm prone to getting all hot and bothered about barak's obfuscation results, i didn't know anything about it until about a year and a half ago and i'm a novice at cryptography. So I'm overreacting mostly to language that might have saved me several weeks of thought
 764 2012-08-18 18:58:02 <amiller> mult-sig lets you spread your trust more thinly but it doesn't change the fact that you have to trust some people
 765 2012-08-18 18:58:06 <amiller> still multi-sig is a different topic
 766 2012-08-18 18:58:46 <Eliel> I think the idea that an agent must be limited to a single computer is dead on arrival.
 767 2012-08-18 18:59:11 <amiller> what security claims do you think an agent would make
 768 2012-08-18 18:59:29 <Eliel> multiple systems ought to form the agent
 769 2012-08-18 18:59:29 <amiller> like would you trust the agent even if you don't trust the host?
 770 2012-08-18 18:59:58 <amiller> like if you have an agent that runs on EC2 and Google Cloud and Heroku, then it's still vulnerable to all sorts of coercion attacks
 771 2012-08-18 19:00:47 <Eliel> of course. That's still too centralized to handle pinpoint strikes.
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 773 2012-08-18 19:01:15 <amiller> what makes it an agent as opposed to just a distributed network that collects donations?
 774 2012-08-18 19:01:59 <Eliel> coordinated activity towards persuading others to send it those donations?
 775 2012-08-18 19:03:10 <amiller> do think i'm an anomaly in that i read that article and imagined an agent where you don't even have to trust the host it runs on?
 776 2012-08-18 19:03:47 <amiller> if i'm the only person that somehow went off on that tangent then i'll just be glad i learned my lesson
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 779 2012-08-18 19:04:44 <amiller> you saying "well obfuscation might be possible as long as you don't care if it works" doesn't help, i truly didn't mean to get back to this side of the conversation
 780 2012-08-18 19:05:02 <Eliel> I'm a bit lost
 781 2012-08-18 19:05:08 <Eliel> what are you talking about?
 782 2012-08-18 19:05:37 <Eliel> I'm trying to say obfuscation is not needed.
 783 2012-08-18 19:05:51 <Eliel> it can be helpful but I don't think it's needed
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 785 2012-08-18 19:07:15 <Eliel> but in the meantime, I better read that article you linked to
 786 2012-08-18 19:07:29 <sunshinehappy> I am getting 401 Authorization Required for this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
 787 2012-08-18 19:07:40 <sunshinehappy> I did set my RPC name and pass.. any idea how to fix it?
 788 2012-08-18 19:08:59 <amiller> Eliel, well please do, I hope you enjoy its clarity, but I don't expect it will add anything you haven't already thought of
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 790 2012-08-18 19:10:27 <amiller> i'm troubled by the lack of a definition of an agent, since "autonomous self replicating code" suggests something stronger to me, and in this discussion you've covered three counter points, 1) "fuzzy obfuscation is possible if you squint", 2) "if you don't want to trust 1 central host, maybe you'll trust 2/3 central hosts", and 3) "an agent is defined by how it interacts with people, not by any security claims it makes"
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 792 2012-08-18 19:10:44 <sunshinehappy> i goti t
 793 2012-08-18 19:10:47 <killerstorm> sunshinehappy: Wrong name and pass, obviously. How do you use them?
 794 2012-08-18 19:11:06 <sunshinehappy> I changed the port from 8332 to 8333
 795 2012-08-18 19:12:19 <amiller> in other words, "1) i didn't stab the guy, 2) fred stabbed him first 3) he had it coming anyway"
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 797 2012-08-18 19:13:41 <amiller> i apologize again for being irritable
 798 2012-08-18 19:13:43 <Eliel> amiller: defining agent is similar in difficulty to defining "person" if you ask me. Can we do that?
 799 2012-08-18 19:14:01 <amiller> i don't buy that, an agent is a technical proposal
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 802 2012-08-18 19:15:02 <amiller> and here we're in the business of secure distributed protocols and cryptography
 803 2012-08-18 19:15:21 <sipa> sunshinehappy: the rpc api is a start; it's not intended for end users yet, but it allows developers at least to create third party tools that experiment with multisig
 804 2012-08-18 19:16:23 <Eliel> I would define agent as something (regardless of how it works, technically, probably more ways than one) that manages to keep it's identity (security claims? functionality?) despite active attempts to violate it.
 805 2012-08-18 19:17:43 <amiller> that sounds good to me - it seems like you're going for a strong security claim then which i like
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 807 2012-08-18 19:18:10 <amiller> "active attempts" <-- we'd have to define a reliance set then, for example if it runs on a TPM then we'd say active attempts except for the people who build TPMs, we're obviously vulnerable to those
 808 2012-08-18 19:18:37 <Eliel> yes, I don't think invulnerability is not a sensible goal
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 810 2012-08-18 19:18:44 <Eliel> ... one "not" too many there
 811 2012-08-18 19:19:23 <amiller> i gotcha, well what would be the right reliance set? i suppose that would depend on who is vulnerable to the agent's failure, and what it's expected to do
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 813 2012-08-18 19:19:42 <amiller> for example you could define an agent that stores secrets for you
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 815 2012-08-18 19:20:12 <amiller> then the security claim would be about the host(s) eavesdropping on the secrets
 816 2012-08-18 19:20:27 <amiller> for example a publisher agent where you give it a secret message and it publishes it one year from now
 817 2012-08-18 19:22:00 <amiller> you can still distribute it across EC/Heroku/AppEngine and you'd need multiparty computation for that
 818 2012-08-18 19:22:54 <amiller> you could substitute your definition of "agent" for "secure distributed system" and i think they'd be the same definition?
 819 2012-08-18 19:23:14 <sunshinehappy> is it port 8333 or 8332? :/
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 821 2012-08-18 19:24:21 <Eliel> amiller: I think the implied different between what I'd regard as an "agent" vs "secure distributed system" is that "agent" implies capability for independent action.
 822 2012-08-18 19:25:10 <sunshinehappy> RPC works wiith bitcoind with not bitcoin-qt
 823 2012-08-18 19:25:11 <weex> i think we need an #agent-dev
 824 2012-08-18 19:25:12 <Eliel> but for the purpose of what you want to talk about, this distinction is not important.
 825 2012-08-18 19:25:16 <sunshinehappy> and I can't have bot open
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 827 2012-08-18 19:26:37 <amiller> weex, there's not enough content here for a whole channel, but i can take it to a pm... looks like we're about about 1.5 pages so far
 828 2012-08-18 19:27:14 <weex> you can keep it here just not sure the definition of an agent has much to do with bitcoin
 829 2012-08-18 19:27:15 <amiller> Eliel, I could buy that as the important distinction... would you elaborate a bit on 'independent'?
 830 2012-08-18 19:27:41 <amiller> well it _is_ on the bitcoin wiki
 831 2012-08-18 19:28:41 <weex> citations still needed :P
 832 2012-08-18 19:30:16 <Eliel> amiller: independent action as in action taken that is not strictly necessary to upkeep the identity and that is not requested by any external entity. I suppose it'd need to have a purpose too.
 833 2012-08-18 19:31:51 <amiller> weex, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53855.msg642768#msg642768 and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Agents (i'm not sure if that's what you meant to ask for)
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 835 2012-08-18 19:33:53 <Eliel> I suppose independent action could also have the property that it's unpredictable without detailed information about the Agent's inner state.
 836 2012-08-18 19:34:19 <amiller> that's interesting, if access to the agent's internal state is considered 'privileged'
 837 2012-08-18 19:35:18 <Eliel> such an action probably needs an advanced AI system integrated with the agent.
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 839 2012-08-18 19:36:31 <amiller> a simple example would be an agent that receives donations, and every day it flips a coin and donates half of its balance to either the EFF or Wikileaks depending on the outcome
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 841 2012-08-18 19:37:01 <amiller> the action would be unpredictable unless you knew its internal state (random seed), it wouldn't be in response to any external request, and it would use bitcoin so it's on topic.
 842 2012-08-18 19:37:34 <sunshinehappy> what is the "wallet.dat" format?
 843 2012-08-18 19:38:40 <Eliel> amiller: that's a bit too constrained that I'd view it as independent. But it is kind of in that direction.
 844 2012-08-18 19:39:13 <Eliel> amiller: that's completely algorithmic if it uses pseudo random numbers.
 845 2012-08-18 19:39:54 <amiller> perhaps it uses its received transactions as seeds, therefore it's deterministic given its input, but it may receive arbitrary input
 846 2012-08-18 19:40:08 <Eliel> ok, that's closer.
 847 2012-08-18 19:40:12 <amiller> the security claims are pretty clear though - you wouldn't want someone to hack it so that it always spits out coins for wikileaks and never EFF
 848 2012-08-18 19:40:21 <amiller> and you wouldn't want the host to just take the private key and drain all the funds
 849 2012-08-18 19:40:47 <Eliel> I think for it to be independent, it needs to observe it's environment and take action based on those observations.
 850 2012-08-18 19:41:29 <amiller> well i'd rather make the argument that even with this weaker definition of independence, there's no satisfactory security claim
 851 2012-08-18 19:42:13 <amiller> unlike a person, you'd want an agent to always follow the rules - its code is part of its identity, so you wouldn't want the hosts to be able to change the rules for their own benefit
 852 2012-08-18 19:42:23 <amiller> (otherwise it's not an agent, it's a sock puppet)
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 854 2012-08-18 19:43:03 <Eliel> yes, independence means it needs to be able to selectively suppress the identity if necessary for continued survival.
 855 2012-08-18 19:43:28 <amiller> that's peculiar
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 857 2012-08-18 19:44:40 <amiller> by that definition, agents are inherently untrustworthy beacuse they can be coerced with guns to their heads
 858 2012-08-18 19:45:07 <amiller> i like it the other way around, where it would rather die than alter its identity
 859 2012-08-18 19:45:16 <Eliel> that can be sidestepped by making them distributed enough that there's too many heads to point guns at.
 860 2012-08-18 19:45:49 <amiller> the problem is that if the agent says "i spent all your coins because it was necessary for my survival and there was no other way", there's no way to tell if it's lying
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 862 2012-08-18 19:46:09 <amiller> this suddenly reminds me of the three laws of robotics and the interesting paradoxes that arise when you relax one or two of them
 863 2012-08-18 19:46:28 <amiller> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar!
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 865 2012-08-18 19:48:37 <Eliel> I suppose ability of self-preservation is not required for independency. It is for strong-independence though.
 866 2012-08-18 19:48:53 <amiller> i think this is a very interesting question then about the definitions and relative priorities of "independence" "identity" and "self preservation" for an agent, definitely a productive discussion
 867 2012-08-18 19:50:39 <Eliel> although, usually by allowing itself to be "killed", the security claim or functional claims are also violated.
 868 2012-08-18 19:53:40 <Eliel> so, for strong security/functional claims, it needs to be able to deal with being "killed" too.
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 872 2012-08-18 20:02:14 <amiller> an interesting part of this is that the security claims are about what the agent does on behalf of its benefactors/sponsors, who aren't necessarily its original creators or hosts
 873 2012-08-18 20:02:25 <Eliel> a network similar to tor could be very useful in helping agents survive attacks. Especially if most agents participated in it. Would make it necessary to attack all agents to hit one in most cases.
 874 2012-08-18 20:03:17 <amiller> somehow i'd rather trust an agent than a person given the same responsibility, and i'd rather trust an agent than the agent's hosts - there's a sense that the agent should be more infallible than either of those, but really it's just the same
 875 2012-08-18 20:04:08 <amiller> like a "user-agent" is a browser, but my browser doesn't have any responsibility to anyone else - maybe what we're talking about are "public agents"?
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 879 2012-08-18 20:17:41 <Eliel> yes, I think that makes sense
 880 2012-08-18 20:18:00 <Eliel> someone has to create them but exert no control over them after creation
 881 2012-08-18 20:18:12 <Eliel> which is kind of challenging since software usually needs updates
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 893 2012-08-18 21:02:39 <jgarzik> amiller: were you able to get pynode going?
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 900 2012-08-18 21:12:05 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: wine: Unhandled page fault on write access to 0x00000014 at address 0x530b17 (thread 0009), starting debugger...
 901 2012-08-18 21:12:23 <gmaxwell> So, the page at 0x0 can be made mapped; it's a kernel setting.
 902 2012-08-18 21:12:40 <gmaxwell> but I'd want to know _why_ it's trying to access 0x0+some offset, thats actually suggestive of a bug.
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 904 2012-08-18 21:13:10 <gmaxwell> I would not expect SSP to cause that.
 905 2012-08-18 21:13:13 Joric_ is now known as Joric
 906 2012-08-18 21:13:59 <sipa> maybe SSP requires a specific non-implemented kernel call, and a dummy returns a dummy address, which is then written to?
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 909 2012-08-18 21:23:30 <sunshinehappy> Berkeley DB
 910 2012-08-18 21:23:30 <sunshinehappy> how do I use Berkeley DB to read my wallet.dat
 911 2012-08-18 21:23:41 Gladamas_ has joined
 912 2012-08-18 21:23:49 <sipa> why do you need to read that file?
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 914 2012-08-18 21:26:15 <Luke-Jr> he's busy trying to write a wallet stealer trojan
 915 2012-08-18 21:26:18 <Luke-Jr> <.< j/k, hopefully
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 917 2012-08-18 21:27:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: SSP shouldn't require kernel anything, it basically just adds function calls to the entry and exit of every function— the former to write a canary to the end of the stack, the latter to check it before return.
 918 2012-08-18 21:28:06 <gmaxwell> (also, my own code runs w/ SSP in wine fine for me)
 919 2012-08-18 21:28:29 <gmaxwell> If it were something like that I'd expect it to always fail.
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 923 2012-08-18 21:29:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, i c
 924 2012-08-18 21:30:05 <sipa> same wine?
 925 2012-08-18 21:30:24 <gmaxwell> No entirely different (I use fedora), and different GCC too, so that may be a factor.
 926 2012-08-18 21:31:13 <gmaxwell> There also could be some specific issue with exception handling; I've never used it on C++ code.
 927 2012-08-18 21:31:36 Gladamas_ is now known as Gladamas
 928 2012-08-18 21:31:41 <sunshinehappy> please help
 929 2012-08-18 21:31:55 <sipa> sunshinehappy: first explain what you're trying to achieve
 930 2012-08-18 21:32:19 <sunshinehappy> I want to read and edit wallet.dat directly
 931 2012-08-18 21:32:29 <sipa> that's a means, not a purpose :)
 932 2012-08-18 21:32:32 <gmaxwell> sunshinehappy: to what end?
 933 2012-08-18 21:32:41 <sunshinehappy> because I don't trust it
 934 2012-08-18 21:33:17 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure I follow.
 935 2012-08-18 21:33:27 <sunshinehappy> I don't know what's in wallet.dat
 936 2012-08-18 21:33:31 <sunshinehappy> the format isn't specified
 937 2012-08-18 21:34:04 <gmaxwell> well, then, perhaps you shouldn't use a wallet.dat that came from a potentially hostile source.
 938 2012-08-18 21:34:18 <sunshinehappy> I create wallet.dat myself
 939 2012-08-18 21:34:26 <sunshinehappy> using bitcoin-qt
 940 2012-08-18 21:34:35 <sipa> it contains private/public keys, transactions, account information, the last known best block hash, and in former versions it also contained user settings
 941 2012-08-18 21:37:02 <sunshinehappy> why is it so secret?
 942 2012-08-18 21:37:08 <Gladamas> sunshinehappy: because anyone who has access to your wallet.dat can spend any coins ever received to the addresses in your wallet
 943 2012-08-18 21:37:28 <Gladamas> sunshinehappy: because anyone who has access to your wallet.dat can spend any coins ever received to the addresses in your wallet
 944 2012-08-18 21:37:43 <gmaxwell> Gladamas: Can anyone who has access to your wallet.dat can spend any coins ever received to the addresses in your wallet??
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 948 2012-08-18 21:39:32 <sipa> sunshinehappy: you mean why you should keep the file secret, or why is the format secret?
 949 2012-08-18 21:39:39 <sunshinehappy> no
 950 2012-08-18 21:39:41 <sunshinehappy> yes
 951 2012-08-18 21:39:42 <sipa> as to the latter: it's not secret at all, it's just complicated
 952 2012-08-18 21:39:48 <sipa> and custom
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 954 2012-08-18 21:40:07 <sunshinehappy> so I could make my own bitcoin client which doesn't use .dat
 955 2012-08-18 21:40:10 <gmaxwell> It's a database file, there isn't anything secret about it. But as sipa says, its non-trivial.
 956 2012-08-18 21:40:33 <sipa> sunshinehappy: if you'd write your own bitcoin client, i'd strongly advise against using the same kind of wallet format
 957 2012-08-18 21:40:56 <sipa> it's just how satoshi chose to work, but there is no reason at all why other clients should behave in the same way
 958 2012-08-18 21:41:36 <sipa> that said, i think you can ask me about any byte in any of the key-value pairs in the format, and i'll explain what it means
 959 2012-08-18 21:41:56 <sipa> though explaining everything would take a long time
 960 2012-08-18 21:41:57 <sunshinehappy> cool
 961 2012-08-18 21:42:08 <sunshinehappy> what does "encryption" do?
 962 2012-08-18 21:42:29 <sunshinehappy> isit just encrypting the private key fields inside the db
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 964 2012-08-18 21:43:06 <sipa> it encrypts the private keys in your wallet using AES256-CBC, with a randomly generated master key; this master key is again encrypted using AES256-CBC, with a key derived from a password you specify, using iterated SHA512
 965 2012-08-18 21:43:25 <sunshinehappy> cool thank you
 966 2012-08-18 21:43:54 <sunshinehappy> so yo ucould have a wallet where only a few of the keys are encrypted?
 967 2012-08-18 21:44:20 <sipa> no, either all private keys are encrypted, or none
 968 2012-08-18 21:44:30 <sipa> the software doesn't support only encrypting some
 969 2012-08-18 21:44:32 <sunshinehappy> :S
 970 2012-08-18 21:44:40 <sipa> why would you want that?
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 972 2012-08-18 21:45:04 * Eliel suspects supporting multiple wallets would solve whatever sunshinehappy wants to accomplish.
 973 2012-08-18 21:45:24 <sipa> yes, i suspect that too
 974 2012-08-18 21:47:42 <sunshinehappy> so I'm confused about this situation:
 975 2012-08-18 21:48:00 <sunshinehappy> 1) delete wallet.dat and launch bitcoin-qt to create a new one, encrypt it
 976 2012-08-18 21:48:15 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 977 2012-08-18 21:48:18 <sunshinehappy> 2) close that and launch bitcoind, then run bitcoind getnewaddress to add a new address to the wallet
 978 2012-08-18 21:48:32 <sunshinehappy> 3) close bitcoind and open bitcoin-qt.. there are 2 addresses here.. encrypted?
 979 2012-08-18 21:48:53 <sipa> ok
 980 2012-08-18 21:49:08 <sipa> so bitcoin keeps a pool of 100 'future' addresses to be generated already in the wallet
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 982 2012-08-18 21:49:24 <sipa> this is to make sure that backups also contain keys that were only 'added' later
 983 2012-08-18 21:49:43 <sunshinehappy> oh!
 984 2012-08-18 21:49:47 <gmaxwell> They are just hidden and performing a getnewaddress unhides them. This is why you do not need to provide the encryption key to getnewaddress. (well, until the keypool runs out)
 985 2012-08-18 21:49:48 <sipa> when you request a new address in -qt or using getnewaddress, it just takes one such key from the pool (which is already encrypted)
 986 2012-08-18 21:50:08 <sunshinehappy> error: {"code":-12,"message":"Error: Keypool ran out, please call keypoolrefill first"}
 987 2012-08-18 21:50:11 <sipa> however, actual new keys are only generated when the wallet is unlocked (so when you typed your password)
 988 2012-08-18 21:50:17 <sunshinehappy> thanks a lot sipa!! You know lots about this :D
 989 2012-08-18 21:50:26 <sipa> and indeed, that way the keypool can run out
 990 2012-08-18 21:50:34 <sipa> well, i wrote parts of it :)
 991 2012-08-18 21:50:38 <sunshinehappy> keypoolrefill DOES required authentication
 992 2012-08-18 21:51:13 <gmaxwell> Right, it will also refill automatically when it can (e.g. when you're already unlocked and call getinfo) (er, unless thats changed)
 993 2012-08-18 21:51:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: it still should, afaik
 994 2012-08-18 21:54:41 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 995 2012-08-18 21:56:01 <sunshinehappy> is it possible to put a virus in a .dat?
 996 2012-08-18 21:57:32 <gmaxwell> It may be.
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 998 2012-08-18 21:57:42 <sunshinehappy> is this intentional?
 999 2012-08-18 21:57:56 cande has joined
1000 2012-08-18 21:58:14 <gmaxwell> 0_o
1001 2012-08-18 21:58:56 Raccoon has joined
1002 2012-08-18 21:59:57 <cande> hm
1003 2012-08-18 22:00:06 <cande> i'm having trouble upgrading bitcoin on my ubuntu
1004 2012-08-18 22:00:21 <cande> i added ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin
1005 2012-08-18 22:00:40 <cande> but there is no package called "bitcoin" when i run sudo apt-get install
1006 2012-08-18 22:00:52 <gmaxwell> sunshinehappy: it's not intentional, but the bdb database reader is not really intended for hostile input, and probably has not been tested against or evaluated for security for malicious files.
1007 2012-08-18 22:02:32 <sunshinehappy> I'm not so keen on bdb :(
1008 2012-08-18 22:03:07 <Joric> if blockchain.info wants js parser i probably could hack one, i'm not promising full bsddb support though
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1011 2012-08-18 22:05:50 <Eliel> amiller: about obfuscation, I don't think obfuscation can be done in anything but fuzzy-security way. That's because what obfuscation basically tries to do is to make the code so complex to parse/analyze into meaningful parts that those who would want to, can't.
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1013 2012-08-18 22:06:28 <Joric> i didn't find any 3rd party bsddb parsers or format documentation, only C source code
1014 2012-08-18 22:06:35 <gmaxwell> Eliel: you're making my case that amiller confused himself by knowing more that other people. :)
1015 2012-08-18 22:06:47 <Eliel> amiller: in other words, it's an attempt to make the code more complex than most of (all?) the "opponents" can handle
1016 2012-08-18 22:07:26 <gmaxwell> Eliel: There is a formal concept of strongly obfuscated programs, which give you cryptography like guarentees. But it's been proven that such programs are very limited. Which is what amiller was reacting to.
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1019 2012-08-18 22:08:51 <Eliel> gmaxwell: I do believe that if you build a cryptographic system where you can do useful arithmetic and multiplication by encrypted numbers and then decrypt the result, you could do the calculations in untrusted environment provided the decryption step can be done in a trusted environment.
1020 2012-08-18 22:09:12 <Eliel> but that's not obfuscation. That's encryption
1021 2012-08-18 22:09:21 <amiller> that's homomorphic encryption, it's good.
1022 2012-08-18 22:09:35 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it's obfuscation too, since the place running it can't tell what is being computed.
1023 2012-08-18 22:09:58 <sipa> Joric: i doubt any non-C code exists to parse bdb
1024 2012-08-18 22:10:12 <amiller> the idea of an "agent", to me, is about being able to trust a program, more than you trust any of the hosts it runs on, but that's what you can't do
1025 2012-08-18 22:10:34 <amiller> that's what i hear when you say "autonomous program" rather than "trusted guy who runs a program for you"
1026 2012-08-18 22:11:07 <amiller> anyway this is where we were before, i swear i didn't meant to drag it all up again - we made some interesting _progress_ in discussing other examples and definitions
1027 2012-08-18 22:12:36 <Joric> sipa, i know, right? well, not yet
1028 2012-08-18 22:12:47 <sipa> Joric: i certainly wouldn't bother
1029 2012-08-18 22:13:01 <sipa> it's going to be extremely complex, and we're moving away from bdb anyway
1030 2012-08-18 22:13:24 <sipa> complex and version-dependent, as bdb as very low compatibility guarantees even
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1036 2012-08-18 22:15:45 <Eliel> amiller: I just finished reading the article you linked to and wanted to let out my thoughts on the subject.
1037 2012-08-18 22:17:14 <Joric> sipa, i forgot there's a java implementation if it's not just bindings
1038 2012-08-18 22:17:22 <Joric> 'Oracle: Berkeley DB, Java Edition 5.0.34: November 09, 2011'
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1041 2012-08-18 22:18:14 <amiller> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/195657/can-i-use-bdbberkeley-db-file-created-by-c-implementation-python-bsddb-by-or#195737
1042 2012-08-18 22:18:19 <amiller> According to the Berkeley DB Java Edition FAQ, Berkeley DB and Berkeley DB Java Edition are not compatible with one another because they have a different file layout structure.
1043 2012-08-18 22:18:21 <amiller> awesome.
1044 2012-08-18 22:18:34 <Joric> bah
1045 2012-08-18 22:19:35 <sipa> bdb's database files are really just memory dumps of its internal structure
1046 2012-08-18 22:19:41 <sipa> afaik
1047 2012-08-18 22:20:03 <sipa> they are not intended to be read by several applications, only by several processes
1048 2012-08-18 22:20:56 <sipa> my impression of bdb: intended for big databases, running on well-maintained servers, with manual upgrade procedures, with tape backups of the entire transaction logs
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1051 2012-08-18 22:27:59 <amiller> jgarzik, i'm sorry, but no i didn't use pynode, i ended up just finishing my task with bitcointools
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1053 2012-08-18 22:29:07 <amiller> sipa, i want to try ultraprune but i'm not sure what steps to take - it seems i need to manually alter my dbs?
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1057 2012-08-18 22:30:41 <sipa> amiller: it uses separate datafiles
1058 2012-08-18 22:30:47 <sipa> but you'll need to re-import
1059 2012-08-18 22:31:17 <amiller> will -loadblocks do it?
1060 2012-08-18 22:31:29 <sipa> yes
1061 2012-08-18 22:31:43 <sipa> and its blk* files are compatible with earlier versions, but smaller
1062 2012-08-18 22:31:52 <sipa> so you can -loadblock in both directions
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1090 2012-08-18 23:00:59 <amiller> sipa, ultraprune is taking 830MB of ram during this initial -loadblock phase, that's higher than i'd expect
1091 2012-08-18 23:01:13 <sipa> which checkout?
1092 2012-08-18 23:01:21 <sipa> from when, i mean
1093 2012-08-18 23:01:40 <gmaxwell> amiller: ram or just virtual address space?
1094 2012-08-18 23:01:41 <amiller> actual
1095 2012-08-18 23:02:14 <sipa> what's the last commit?
1096 2012-08-18 23:03:08 <amiller> f51448802f9b867e2caf7ab14ce9630d6cf9a1dc from Aug 10
1097 2012-08-18 23:03:43 <sipa> named?
1098 2012-08-18 23:04:02 <sipa> (not at my own pc right now)
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1100 2012-08-18 23:05:01 <amiller> "Automatically reorganize at startup to best known block" <---- first line of commit message, it's the current head at github.com:sipa/ultraprune
1101 2012-08-18 23:05:10 <sipa> oh, ok
1102 2012-08-18 23:05:15 Gladamas has quit (Quit: Got to go, or internet/client/computer crash)
1103 2012-08-18 23:05:26 <sipa> certainly shouldn't use that much memory
1104 2012-08-18 23:05:47 BCBot has joined
1105 2012-08-18 23:06:13 <amiller> i'll kill it abruptly and see if i can reproduce
1106 2012-08-18 23:06:55 Gladamas has joined
1107 2012-08-18 23:07:45 <sipa> how did you measure, btw?
1108 2012-08-18 23:08:05 <amiller> top?
1109 2012-08-18 23:08:18 <sipa> under RSS?
1110 2012-08-18 23:08:35 <amiller> RES, yeah (not VIRT)
1111 2012-08-18 23:09:34 <sipa> ok, i'll look into it tomorrow
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1115 2012-08-18 23:16:23 <sipa> pfff, chances exist that we'll have the hottest day ever (since recorded history, somewhere in the 1800's) here
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1123 2012-08-18 23:29:34 <amiller> sipa, once i start seeing lines like this in my debug.log, the memory consumption starts to grow:    ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK, prev=000000000000075c1369
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1125 2012-08-18 23:30:18 <jgarzik> amiller: well sure... it stores orphans in memory
1126 2012-08-18 23:30:20 <sipa> not too surprising, as orphan blocks are kept in RAM
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1129 2012-08-18 23:32:02 <sipa> that's completely unrelated to ultraprune, though
1130 2012-08-18 23:33:26 <sipa> amiller: what are you -loadblock'ing, by the way?
1131 2012-08-18 23:33:39 MC-Eeepc has joined
1132 2012-08-18 23:33:48 <sipa> a normal blk0001.dat file should not contain orphans
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1135 2012-08-18 23:35:18 * amiller has no idea, probably the deprecated one
1136 2012-08-18 23:36:49 <sipa> i suppose that during -loadblock, orphans should be discarded instead
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1138 2012-08-18 23:40:45 <jgarzik> sipa: eu1.bitcoincharts.com's downloads do contain orphans, and they are popular downloads
1139 2012-08-18 23:42:05 * amiller switches to lukejr's download and tries again
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1141 2012-08-18 23:44:23 <amiller> thanks, its much better now, i'll give that a few more minutes and work on pynode when its done
1142 2012-08-18 23:46:45 <sipa> jgarzik: stales, not orphans, iirc
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1145 2012-08-18 23:54:33 <jgarzik> genjix: Random factoid...   Curiosity just finished its 56 million km remote software upgrade, for both primary and backup computers, a day or so ago.
1146 2012-08-18 23:54:53 <jgarzik> doing an it-cannot-fail remote upgrade just reminds me so much of bitcoin software development