1 2012-08-19 00:00:51 <sipa> any idea of what kind of bandwidth they have on the connection from/to curiosity?
2 2012-08-19 00:01:22 <Zarutian> jgarzik: if you want to know what it feels like not to do that properly ask the head developer at Kaon (a South Korean company that makes digital descramblers) how it felt to have to replace a flashchip by hand in 15 thousand units or so.
3 2012-08-19 00:03:15 <sipa> 128 Kbit/s from Curiosity to earth, it seems
4 2012-08-19 00:03:33 <sipa> welcome to ISDN speed :)
5 2012-08-19 00:03:45 <Zarutian> sipa: depends if they are using the IPN or direct transmission to earth
6 2012-08-19 00:03:53 ForceMajeure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
7 2012-08-19 00:04:11 <Zarutian> sipe: what with ten minute or more ping?
8 2012-08-19 00:05:08 ForceMajeure has joined
9 2012-08-19 00:05:45 <sipa> i suppose
10 2012-08-19 00:06:04 <sipa> i doubt they are using TCP/IP over that
11 2012-08-19 00:07:25 <Zarutian> most likely the dtn bundle protocol or perhaps something simpler
12 2012-08-19 00:08:38 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
13 2012-08-19 00:10:20 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
14 2012-08-19 00:13:26 Gladamas has quit (Quit: GTG dinner)
15 2012-08-19 00:17:54 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
16 2012-08-19 00:18:32 Diablo-D3 has joined
17 2012-08-19 00:19:44 <sunshinehappy> how do I query my blockchain info I have saved?
18 2012-08-19 00:21:08 roconnor has joined
19 2012-08-19 00:21:27 _flow_ has joined
20 2012-08-19 00:21:34 <sunshinehappy> I want to offline
21 2012-08-19 00:27:40 rdponticelli_ has joined
22 2012-08-19 00:28:31 rdponticelli has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23 2012-08-19 00:35:42 zveda has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
24 2012-08-19 00:37:12 enquirer has quit (Quit: back soon)
25 2012-08-19 00:39:01 MiningBuddy- is now known as MiningBuddy
26 2012-08-19 00:43:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: fortunately the limited access to 70m dishes reduces the number of psychopaths who might try to disrupt it.
27 2012-08-19 00:46:08 <amiller> sunshinehappy, if you'd like to use python, i'd recommend bitcointools and/or pynode
28 2012-08-19 00:46:22 RainbowDashh has joined
29 2012-08-19 00:49:30 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
30 2012-08-19 00:52:24 <sunshinehappy> it just says
31 2012-08-19 00:52:32 <sunshinehappy> ERROR:root:Couldn't open blkindex.dat/main. Try quitting any running Bitcoin apps.
32 2012-08-19 00:53:17 <sunshinehappy> does that mean I'm screwed?
33 2012-08-19 00:55:09 mmoya has joined
34 2012-08-19 00:55:30 <sunshinehappy> :(
35 2012-08-19 00:58:47 <jgarzik> sunshinehappy: first the dumb questions (sorry!)... does blkindex.dat exist in the specified directory? is bitcoin or bitcoind running?
36 2012-08-19 00:59:18 <sunshinehappy> well blkindex.dat is in ~/.bitcoin
37 2012-08-19 00:59:25 <sunshinehappy> shouldI copy it into bitcointools?
38 2012-08-19 00:59:45 <jgarzik> sunshinehappy: are you running bitcointools from inside ~/.bitcoin ?
39 2012-08-19 00:59:50 <sunshinehappy> no
40 2012-08-19 01:00:01 <sunshinehappy> should I do that instead?
41 2012-08-19 01:01:09 <sunshinehappy> that gives the same error
42 2012-08-19 01:01:48 <jgarzik> sunshinehappy: is bitcoin or bitcoind running?
43 2012-08-19 01:01:52 <sunshinehappy> no
44 2012-08-19 01:03:18 <jgarzik> sunshinehappy: not sure then, sorry :( just looked at bitcointools code, and your usage sounds correct. I wonder if it is differing Berkeley DB compile versions, between your python and your bitcoin build
45 2012-08-19 01:03:36 robocoin has joined
46 2012-08-19 01:03:37 <sunshinehappy> oh that's a good idea, I'll try to find out if that's the case
47 2012-08-19 01:03:47 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
48 2012-08-19 01:08:43 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
49 2012-08-19 01:14:57 <sunshinehappy> $ db_verify blkindex.dat
50 2012-08-19 01:14:57 <sunshinehappy> db_verify: BDB1538 Program version 5.2 doesn't match environment version 4.8
51 2012-08-19 01:14:57 <sunshinehappy> db_verify: DB_ENV->open: BDB0091 DB_VERSION_MISMATCH: Database environment version mismatch
52 2012-08-19 01:15:55 phantomcircuit_ has joined
53 2012-08-19 01:16:13 <jgarzik> sunshinehappy: ok so your blkindex.dat was written by 4.8, which is normal. db_verify was compiled with 5.2, which python -may- have been compiled with also.
54 2012-08-19 01:16:29 <sunshinehappy> I see
55 2012-08-19 01:16:41 <sunshinehappy> I just ran db_recover a couple times
56 2012-08-19 01:16:56 Silverion has joined
57 2012-08-19 01:17:08 <sunshinehappy> and now I am trying to db_verify blkindex.dat again, and since it's taking a long time (rather than instantly ttelling me it's wrong) I guess this is helping
58 2012-08-19 01:18:18 <sunshinehappy> it's taking so long :(
59 2012-08-19 01:19:13 <sunshinehappy> I want to C-c it but I better not
60 2012-08-19 01:20:32 RV___ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
61 2012-08-19 01:20:35 Jezzz has quit (Excess Flood)
62 2012-08-19 01:21:41 <sunshinehappy> bsddb.db.DBRunRecoveryError: (-30974, 'DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery -- unable to join the environment')
63 2012-08-19 01:21:48 Guest76022 has joined
64 2012-08-19 01:21:50 <sunshinehappy> I get this now when running the python script :D
65 2012-08-19 01:21:57 <sunshinehappy> but db recovery doesn't help
66 2012-08-19 01:23:00 <amiller> hey sunshinehappy i just ran through this yesterday so i'l help
67 2012-08-19 01:23:06 <amiller> i had to copy my blkindex.dat to a different directory
68 2012-08-19 01:23:16 <amiller> i was unable to make it work otherwise
69 2012-08-19 01:23:29 <amiller> i used db_dump blkindex.dat | db_load newdirectory/bklindex.dat
70 2012-08-19 01:23:39 Guest76022 is now known as Jezzz
71 2012-08-19 01:24:09 Jezzz is now known as Guest35142
72 2012-08-19 01:26:10 <amiller> the 4.8 vs 5.2 stuff is probably a red herring and that occurs when there are __db00.log files in the directory because of a failed read that didn't clean up after itself, it's probably not actually about the db versions
73 2012-08-19 01:26:27 <sunshinehappy> im sorry my cursor stopped working so I had to go get a mouse :(
74 2012-08-19 01:26:34 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
75 2012-08-19 01:26:40 <jgarzik> newer versions should be able to read older versions
76 2012-08-19 01:26:44 <jgarzik> though log files are incompatible
77 2012-08-19 01:26:49 <sunshinehappy> db_dump blkindex.dat | db_load newdirectory/bklindex.dat
78 2012-08-19 01:26:55 <sunshinehappy> run this whole command?
79 2012-08-19 01:27:04 <amiller> yup that's what's been working for me
80 2012-08-19 01:27:11 <amiller> mkdir newdirectory/ first of course
81 2012-08-19 01:31:25 <amiller> also i ended up switching out all the bsddb to bsddb3
82 2012-08-19 01:32:00 <sunshinehappy> ok but what do I do after that command?
83 2012-08-19 01:32:21 <amiller> use bitcointools but tell it to use newdirectory instead
84 2012-08-19 01:32:21 denisx has joined
85 2012-08-19 01:33:00 <sunshinehappy> oh that still says ERROR:root:Couldn't open blkindex.dat/main. Try quitting any running Bitcoin apps.
86 2012-08-19 01:33:00 <sunshinehappy> :(
87 2012-08-19 01:33:45 <amiller> let me give you a gist that has just the bsddb commands and not the rest
88 2012-08-19 01:34:13 <sunshinehappy> oh wait
89 2012-08-19 01:34:21 <sunshinehappy> let's try it with blk instead of bkl
90 2012-08-19 01:34:57 Guest35142 is now known as Jezzz
91 2012-08-19 01:35:09 Jezzz has quit (Changing host)
92 2012-08-19 01:35:09 Jezzz has joined
93 2012-08-19 01:35:18 Maccer has joined
94 2012-08-19 01:36:03 <amiller> https://gist.github.com/f0f0e18242a3c2711fe7
95 2012-08-19 01:36:15 <amiller> that's the shortest bsddb proof of concept (no bitcointools required)
96 2012-08-19 01:36:27 <amiller> it will give you (slightly) more useful error messages
97 2012-08-19 01:36:36 <sunshinehappy> thank you
98 2012-08-19 01:36:48 <sunshinehappy> I really wish there was a blockchain thing which wasn't 2GB!
99 2012-08-19 01:37:06 <amiller> there is: ultraprune!
100 2012-08-19 01:37:18 <sunshinehappy> :o
101 2012-08-19 01:37:26 <amiller> also the result of dump | load should be only 800MB
102 2012-08-19 01:37:36 <sunshinehappy> yeah
103 2012-08-19 01:38:03 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
104 2012-08-19 01:41:17 <sunshinehappy> yay! I can get the blk summary now! thanks very much
105 2012-08-19 01:41:22 <amiller> you're welcome! i'll give you a bitcoin if you summarize everything we did and post it to the forum
106 2012-08-19 01:41:26 <amiller> look for an existing thread on bitcointools i suppose
107 2012-08-19 01:41:59 <sunshinehappy> I was actually planning on doing that for everything I've learned up to this point
108 2012-08-19 01:42:27 <amiller> :]
109 2012-08-19 01:43:22 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
110 2012-08-19 01:45:22 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
111 2012-08-19 01:46:10 BCBot has joined
112 2012-08-19 01:47:01 <sunshinehappy> but I can't do: db_dump blk0002.dat | db_load ~/foo/blk0002.dat
113 2012-08-19 01:47:35 Gladamas has joined
114 2012-08-19 01:48:00 <amiller> ah, those aren't bdbs
115 2012-08-19 01:48:08 <amiller> those are flat files with a pretty simple format
116 2012-08-19 01:48:18 <sunshinehappy> oh great
117 2012-08-19 01:48:21 <sunshinehappy> I'll just ln them
118 2012-08-19 01:48:23 <amiller> you can probably just copy or symlink them
119 2012-08-19 01:48:23 <amiller> ya
120 2012-08-19 01:49:59 knotwork has joined
121 2012-08-19 01:55:24 vampireb has joined
122 2012-08-19 01:57:39 vampireb has quit (Client Quit)
123 2012-08-19 02:08:46 hnz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
124 2012-08-19 02:09:29 vampireb has joined
125 2012-08-19 02:13:42 hnz_ has joined
126 2012-08-19 02:27:11 Gladamas has quit (Quit: GTG)
127 2012-08-19 02:28:17 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
128 2012-08-19 02:32:27 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
129 2012-08-19 02:34:18 user has quit (Quit: Leaving)
130 2012-08-19 02:34:23 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
131 2012-08-19 02:34:40 Apexseals has joined
132 2012-08-19 02:34:50 RainbowDashh has joined
133 2012-08-19 02:35:08 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
134 2012-08-19 02:40:08 bdcs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
135 2012-08-19 02:42:42 RainbowD_ has joined
136 2012-08-19 02:43:16 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
137 2012-08-19 02:43:16 RainbowD_ is now known as RainbowDashh
138 2012-08-19 02:44:49 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
139 2012-08-19 02:44:55 bdcs has joined
140 2012-08-19 02:45:18 bdcs is now known as Guest18476
141 2012-08-19 02:45:52 robocoin has joined
142 2012-08-19 02:47:13 BCBot has joined
143 2012-08-19 02:49:43 Guest18476 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
144 2012-08-19 02:50:19 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space)
145 2012-08-19 02:54:32 Guest18476 has joined
146 2012-08-19 02:57:43 sgstair has quit (Quit: .«UPP»Â.)
147 2012-08-19 03:00:18 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
148 2012-08-19 03:01:24 BCBot has joined
149 2012-08-19 03:01:33 sgstair has joined
150 2012-08-19 03:02:55 Gladamas has joined
151 2012-08-19 03:04:59 user has joined
152 2012-08-19 03:08:39 user has quit (Client Quit)
153 2012-08-19 03:12:50 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
154 2012-08-19 03:15:54 enquirer has joined
155 2012-08-19 03:16:22 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
156 2012-08-19 03:25:34 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
157 2012-08-19 03:25:38 [7] has joined
158 2012-08-19 03:26:07 rdponticelli_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
159 2012-08-19 03:26:16 vampireb has joined
160 2012-08-19 03:29:47 Siskiyou has joined
161 2012-08-19 03:40:31 Joric has quit ()
162 2012-08-19 03:40:49 Goilio has joined
163 2012-08-19 03:40:54 gasteve has joined
164 2012-08-19 03:40:54 gasteve has quit (Changing host)
165 2012-08-19 03:40:54 gasteve has joined
166 2012-08-19 03:44:26 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
167 2012-08-19 03:45:08 Guest18476 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
168 2012-08-19 03:48:26 leotreasure has joined
169 2012-08-19 03:49:42 Guest18476 has joined
170 2012-08-19 03:50:13 dvide has joined
171 2012-08-19 04:00:38 rdponticelli has joined
172 2012-08-19 04:01:08 Siskiyou has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
173 2012-08-19 04:05:54 leotreasure has quit (Quit: leotreasure)
174 2012-08-19 04:12:20 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
175 2012-08-19 04:15:04 sunshinehappy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
176 2012-08-19 04:17:54 Joric has joined
177 2012-08-19 04:42:58 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
178 2012-08-19 04:43:33 da2ce7 has joined
179 2012-08-19 04:45:23 robocoin has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
180 2012-08-19 04:45:32 da2ce772 has joined
181 2012-08-19 04:53:01 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
182 2012-08-19 04:53:22 da2ce7 has joined
183 2012-08-19 04:55:16 gfinn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
184 2012-08-19 04:57:52 da2ce772 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
185 2012-08-19 04:59:20 hahuang65 has joined
186 2012-08-19 05:03:59 copumpkin has joined
187 2012-08-19 05:06:45 gfinn has joined
188 2012-08-19 05:09:20 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
189 2012-08-19 05:09:43 da2ce7 has joined
190 2012-08-19 05:23:16 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
191 2012-08-19 05:27:36 <amiller> are all addresses 160 bits, including pay to hash?
192 2012-08-19 05:29:01 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
193 2012-08-19 05:33:02 yellowhat has joined
194 2012-08-19 05:34:11 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
195 2012-08-19 05:37:08 <lianj> amiller: ?
196 2012-08-19 05:37:49 <amiller> every txout is associated with an address, right
197 2012-08-19 05:37:52 <amiller> hrm, or a scriptpubsig
198 2012-08-19 05:39:20 brizzo_ has joined
199 2012-08-19 05:39:20 <amiller> i'm trying to understand txouts, since i'm writing my merkle tree format now
200 2012-08-19 05:39:29 <amiller> mostly i'm following this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:TxBinaryMap.png
201 2012-08-19 05:39:39 <lianj> every txout is associated with a output script
202 2012-08-19 05:40:01 <amiller> the output script is potentially large
203 2012-08-19 05:40:05 <amiller> is there a hash of the output script perhaps?
204 2012-08-19 05:40:16 <lianj> no
205 2012-08-19 05:40:27 <amiller> that's bullshit
206 2012-08-19 05:40:34 <amiller> okay i'm just gonna hash that then
207 2012-08-19 05:41:16 <lianj> its not bullshit. but have fun
208 2012-08-19 05:41:22 <amiller> i'm going to support the "query merkle tree for all the spendable outputs concerning an address" mode
209 2012-08-19 05:41:29 <amiller> but there's no efficient way to do that with arbitrary size scripts
210 2012-08-19 05:42:09 <amiller> so instead i'm going to support searching by a particular hash of an output script - if you want to search for 'standard transactions' matching a particular address, then you can do that
211 2012-08-19 05:44:18 <amiller> actually i was misreading this diagram, i'm only concerned with the Standard TXOUT and CoinBase TXOUT i think
212 2012-08-19 05:44:34 <amiller> those are either 25 bytes or 67 bytes?
213 2012-08-19 05:44:53 <amiller> yeah either way i'm just gonna take the hash of that
214 2012-08-19 05:46:14 <amiller> H(scriptPubKey) -> 32 bytes
215 2012-08-19 05:47:46 <lianj> you sir have a merkle obsession :P
216 2012-08-19 05:48:13 <amiller> you can smoke trees, and you can smoke hash, but i'm the only one that seems to get high on hash trees
217 2012-08-19 05:54:44 <amiller> nvm i'd rather make it just for addresses for standard transactions, 20 bytes then
218 2012-08-19 05:55:03 <amiller> non-standard transactions won't have an entry placed in the address-lookup part of the merkle tree
219 2012-08-19 05:58:22 B0g4r7__ has joined
220 2012-08-19 05:58:38 coingenuity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
221 2012-08-19 06:02:08 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
222 2012-08-19 06:02:08 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
223 2012-08-19 06:03:12 <brizzo_> so how do you get an invite into bitcoin politics IRC? anyone know?
224 2012-08-19 06:06:33 coingenuity has joined
225 2012-08-19 06:06:41 <Ukto> no reason to go there
226 2012-08-19 06:06:47 <Ukto> its just a small grp of ppl joking around
227 2012-08-19 06:07:36 <jeremias> kik
228 2012-08-19 06:07:40 <jeremias> lol
229 2012-08-19 06:07:45 <amiller> that doesn't answer the question though does it
230 2012-08-19 06:07:56 <amiller> if you don't know...
231 2012-08-19 06:15:58 brizzo_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
232 2012-08-19 06:20:58 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
233 2012-08-19 06:28:37 <jgarzik> w00t
234 2012-08-19 06:28:42 <jgarzik> just finished implementing chain reorg
235 2012-08-19 06:29:17 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
236 2012-08-19 06:33:10 dust-otc has joined
237 2012-08-19 06:34:35 justmoon has joined
238 2012-08-19 06:38:15 Raccoon` has joined
239 2012-08-19 06:38:24 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
240 2012-08-19 06:38:39 Raccoon` is now known as Raccoon
241 2012-08-19 06:40:58 att has joined
242 2012-08-19 06:43:46 RazielZ has joined
243 2012-08-19 06:55:24 Joric has quit ()
244 2012-08-19 06:58:14 yellowhat has joined
245 2012-08-19 07:00:57 stejin has joined
246 2012-08-19 07:02:35 <amiller> i can't figure out, using bitcointools, how to find the txouthash for a given txout
247 2012-08-19 07:02:53 <amiller> or i guess what i need is the transaction hash
248 2012-08-19 07:03:13 Raziel_ has joined
249 2012-08-19 07:05:57 tonikt has joined
250 2012-08-19 07:06:13 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
251 2012-08-19 07:06:25 [Tycho] has joined
252 2012-08-19 07:18:28 ovidiusoft has joined
253 2012-08-19 07:18:42 <amiller> i suppose the txhash is simply the hash of all the tx data
254 2012-08-19 07:20:15 <Diablo-D3> that'd b e too simple
255 2012-08-19 07:22:47 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
256 2012-08-19 07:24:44 sirk390 has joined
257 2012-08-19 07:24:59 Marf has joined
258 2012-08-19 07:25:51 CodesInChaos has joined
259 2012-08-19 07:27:13 Raziel__ has joined
260 2012-08-19 07:27:21 stejin has left ()
261 2012-08-19 07:28:13 OneFixt_ has joined
262 2012-08-19 07:30:18 <amiller> yeah it seems like it is too simple
263 2012-08-19 07:30:25 Raziel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
264 2012-08-19 07:31:11 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
265 2012-08-19 07:32:08 <amiller> how do i compute the hash of the very first transaction, how many bytes are in it? 134?
266 2012-08-19 07:32:14 leotreasure has joined
267 2012-08-19 07:32:39 <justmoon> are you trying to get the transaction hash or the hashForSignature?
268 2012-08-19 07:32:50 <amiller> tx_id
269 2012-08-19 07:32:53 <amiller> transaction hash
270 2012-08-19 07:32:57 <justmoon> then it's just the hash of all the data
271 2012-08-19 07:33:03 <justmoon> maybe endian of the hash tripping you up?
272 2012-08-19 07:33:06 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
273 2012-08-19 07:33:20 <justmoon> also it's two rounds of sha256 don't forget
274 2012-08-19 07:33:21 <amiller> i tried all four endians i could think of
275 2012-08-19 07:33:23 <amiller> oh shit
276 2012-08-19 07:34:33 <amiller> perfect, thanks!
277 2012-08-19 07:34:58 <justmoon> nw
278 2012-08-19 07:36:31 <amiller> gonna have a whole merkle tree prototype within a few hours, will run through the UTXO database for every block in the chain
279 2012-08-19 07:36:39 leotreasure has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
280 2012-08-19 07:37:11 <justmoon> cool, let me know how it goes!
281 2012-08-19 07:37:13 RainbowDashh has joined
282 2012-08-19 07:38:15 tsukino has joined
283 2012-08-19 07:38:43 <[Tycho]> ЧÑо-Ñо ÑÑÐ¾Ñ 2012 на аÑÑо поÑ
ож
284 2012-08-19 07:39:03 <[Tycho]> Wrong channel, sorry :)
285 2012-08-19 07:39:28 <justmoon> Я не говоÑÑ Ð½Ð° ÑÑÑÑком, ÑÑвак.
286 2012-08-19 07:40:19 <amiller> here's the entire MerkleTree format https://github.com/amiller/redblackmerkle/blob/master/utxo_merkle.py
287 2012-08-19 07:40:52 usagi has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
288 2012-08-19 07:41:54 one_zero has joined
289 2012-08-19 07:46:40 Gladamas has quit (Quit: switching proxies)
290 2012-08-19 07:47:15 Gladamas has joined
291 2012-08-19 07:50:04 cande has joined
292 2012-08-19 07:51:48 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
293 2012-08-19 07:53:14 <cande> Safe mode: WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
294 2012-08-19 07:53:25 <cande> what is this?
295 2012-08-19 07:53:43 <justmoon> cande: which version are you running?
296 2012-08-19 07:54:08 <cande> 60300
297 2012-08-19 07:54:55 <justmoon> that looks like a protocol version, I meant client version
298 2012-08-19 07:55:20 <cande> protocol is 60001
299 2012-08-19 07:55:37 <justmoon> so I'm guessing 60300 means 0.6.3
300 2012-08-19 07:56:05 <justmoon> that should be latest version, so I don't know about the warning, sorry
301 2012-08-19 07:56:43 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
302 2012-08-19 07:56:56 <cande> hm
303 2012-08-19 07:57:00 <cande> thx anyway
304 2012-08-19 07:58:53 <justmoon> based on the code it looks like the warning shows if you know about invalid blocks that are about six blocks ahead of your best chain
305 2012-08-19 07:59:08 <justmoon> can you do a getinfo and tell me what block height you're on?
306 2012-08-19 07:59:27 <justmoon> cande ^
307 2012-08-19 07:59:51 <cande> sure
308 2012-08-19 08:00:26 <cande> 194374
309 2012-08-19 08:00:42 <justmoon> ;;bc,blocks
310 2012-08-19 08:00:42 <gribble> 194583
311 2012-08-19 08:00:46 <justmoon> yeah, you're behind
312 2012-08-19 08:01:02 <justmoon> might be some database issue I'm guessing
313 2012-08-19 08:01:24 <justmoon> I don't know if there is an easier way to fix it, but redownloading the chain should do it definitely
314 2012-08-19 08:01:36 <cande> hm
315 2012-08-19 08:01:41 ThomasV has joined
316 2012-08-19 08:01:54 <cande> is there a command for that?
317 2012-08-19 08:01:57 Karmaon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
318 2012-08-19 08:02:20 <justmoon> just stop the client and delete the blk????.dat files and the blkindex.dat
319 2012-08-19 08:02:27 <justmoon> don't delete the wallet.day obv :P
320 2012-08-19 08:02:30 <justmoon> dat*
321 2012-08-19 08:03:10 <cande> 2,5 gbytes
322 2012-08-19 08:04:12 <justmoon> yeah, it'll take quite a while to catch back up - you can choose to wait here in case somebody shows up who knows a better method
323 2012-08-19 08:09:35 <cande> :-)
324 2012-08-19 08:16:47 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
325 2012-08-19 08:17:01 tower has joined
326 2012-08-19 08:17:51 tsukino is now known as usagi
327 2012-08-19 08:18:11 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
328 2012-08-19 08:19:43 Raziel__ is now known as RazielZ
329 2012-08-19 08:20:00 RainbowDashh has joined
330 2012-08-19 08:21:26 zebedee_ has joined
331 2012-08-19 08:25:23 <amiller> hmmm i just found a duplicate txout
332 2012-08-19 08:26:12 <justmoon> yes, coinbases can have the same hash
333 2012-08-19 08:26:47 <amiller> so when a coinbase is spent, how do you know which one it was?
334 2012-08-19 08:26:58 <amiller> or is the correct response to just void the previous one?
335 2012-08-19 08:27:14 <amiller> i'm pretty sure this is roconnor's bug
336 2012-08-19 08:27:23 <justmoon> yes it is
337 2012-08-19 08:27:55 <justmoon> it's also the motivation for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034
338 2012-08-19 08:28:00 paraipan has joined
339 2012-08-19 08:28:32 <amiller> i don't understand how that transaction was handled, did he simply get credit for both?
340 2012-08-19 08:28:43 <justmoon> no, one of them is void
341 2012-08-19 08:28:44 <amiller> (not roconnor, but whoever mined that junk)
342 2012-08-19 08:28:50 <amiller> okay so the voiding is the correct repsonse
343 2012-08-19 08:30:13 <justmoon> I believe a node remembers all coinbase hashes and treats duplicates a certain way
344 2012-08-19 08:30:22 <justmoon> damn, I can't believe I already forget the exact rules again
345 2012-08-19 08:30:23 <gmaxwell> justmoon: no.
346 2012-08-19 08:30:54 <gmaxwell> roconnor's issue was a more subtle take on the same situation, that you could duplicate has been long known.
347 2012-08-19 08:31:03 <Luke-Jr> amiller: the more recent one overwrites the old one
348 2012-08-19 08:31:15 <gmaxwell> We don't allow duplicates to be introduced of any unspent transaction, including coinbases anymore.
349 2012-08-19 08:31:19 <Luke-Jr> amiller: until BIP 34
350 2012-08-19 08:31:29 toffoo has quit ()
351 2012-08-19 08:31:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, technically only coinbases
352 2012-08-19 08:31:44 <Luke-Jr> we just assume it's impossible for any others
353 2012-08-19 08:32:25 <amiller> okay, since i'm not trying to do any novel validation myself here, i'll just ignore-if-duplicate
354 2012-08-19 08:32:50 <Luke-Jr> â¦
355 2012-08-19 08:32:54 <Luke-Jr> that's dangerous
356 2012-08-19 08:34:58 <amiller> nah
357 2012-08-19 08:35:26 <Luke-Jr> amiller: the duplicate coinbase clears the "spent" flags
358 2012-08-19 08:36:14 <amiller> if i have a set of (txid, index)
359 2012-08-19 08:37:01 <amiller> and the set already contains an unspent (d5d27987d2a3dfc72,0), then someone creates an additional unspent (d5d27987d2a3dfc72,0), then the result is still just one instance of (d5d27987d2a3dfc72,0), right?
360 2012-08-19 08:37:16 phantomcircuit has quit (Disconnected by services)
361 2012-08-19 08:37:19 <justmoon> gmaxwell: that's nitpicking, what I meant was that roconnor's bug was related to the duplicate coinbase issue (I did run into it when implementing bitcoinjs, so I'm well aware it's been known for a long time)
362 2012-08-19 08:37:44 phantomcircuit_ has joined
363 2012-08-19 08:38:06 phantomcircuit has joined
364 2012-08-19 08:38:18 <gmaxwell> justmoon: My comment to you was regarding "a node remembers all coinbase hashes and treats duplicates a certain way"
365 2012-08-19 08:38:28 <gmaxwell> justmoon: this isn't true, it would break pruning, and it isn't what we do.
366 2012-08-19 08:38:51 <justmoon> gmaxwell: ah, ok so the wiki is wrong then
367 2012-08-19 08:38:53 <justmoon> "Use the previous block hash as an explicit or implicit prev_in in coinbases when hashing them to make it ~impossible to get a duplicate coinbase, thus removing the need for a pruning node to remember coinbase hashes to prevent duplicates consistently with the rest of the network "
368 2012-08-19 08:39:10 <justmoon> (from Hardfork Wishlist)
369 2012-08-19 08:39:41 <gmaxwell> justmoon: it's not wrong either.
370 2012-08-19 08:40:32 <sipa> amiller, justmoon: read bip30
371 2012-08-19 08:40:45 <gmaxwell> justmoon: We do not prevent duplicate coinbases; we do prevent overwrites of unspents though. The latter is done without remembering coinbase hashes though, as it just consults the txout set.
372 2012-08-19 08:41:16 <justmoon> the txout set constitutes remembering coinbase hashes >.<
373 2012-08-19 08:41:27 <gmaxwell> justmoon: No! jesus
374 2012-08-19 08:42:13 <gmaxwell> justmoon: There isn't any special case remembering done. It just prevents the transaction overwriting thats it. Duplicates can still be created.
375 2012-08-19 08:42:24 <justmoon> I'm not saying there is any special case remembering
376 2012-08-19 08:42:33 <justmoon> I'm saying the txout set is indexed by transaction hash
377 2012-08-19 08:42:46 <justmoon> i.e. you are remembering the hash of the coinbase transaction
378 2012-08-19 08:43:15 <gmaxwell> Okay, I misunderstood you when you said 'treats duplicates a special way', because it's not acting on duplicates (as that would break pruning)
379 2012-08-19 08:43:42 denisx has joined
380 2012-08-19 08:44:24 <justmoon> ahh, no, that statement didn't really have any information content, I just meant to say I don't know exactly how duplicate coinbases are handled
381 2012-08-19 08:44:47 <justmoon> only that there exists some defined behavior for them that amiller should take care to get right
382 2012-08-19 08:45:01 <amiller> drop drop it like its hot
383 2012-08-19 08:46:42 <sipa> amiller: before bip30, a duplicate coinbase tx was valid, and the tx in the txindex was overwritten by it
384 2012-08-19 08:47:27 <amiller> since i'm only working with the set of (txid,idx) itself, it doesn't end up concerning me, that's only up to how someone interprets that set
385 2012-08-19 08:47:28 <sipa> so any unspent txouts of the former coinbase become unspendable at that point
386 2012-08-19 08:48:05 <sipa> that happe ed a few times
387 2012-08-19 08:48:23 <amiller> the zero-optimization uncompressed size of the utxout merkle trees is no more than 150MB at any time, at least up through block 120k
388 2012-08-19 08:48:36 <amiller> looking forward to getting up to the satoshidice era
389 2012-08-19 08:52:54 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
390 2012-08-19 08:54:02 vampireb has joined
391 2012-08-19 08:54:57 vampireb has quit (Client Quit)
392 2012-08-19 08:55:29 pickett has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
393 2012-08-19 08:56:18 pickett has joined
394 2012-08-19 08:57:19 <Eliel> amiller: does that 150MB include the txout data?
395 2012-08-19 08:59:26 <amiller> (i'm pretty much jammed up at around block 130k, with 400MB)
396 2012-08-19 09:00:25 <amiller> it doesn't include any txout data, just a balanced binary tree of hashes where the leaves are (txid,index)
397 2012-08-19 09:00:28 iocor has joined
398 2012-08-19 09:01:54 <sipa> amiller: i can put txids + txout data in 80 MiB
399 2012-08-19 09:02:10 <sipa> serialized, without tree
400 2012-08-19 09:02:50 <amiller> when does the peak occur, do you know offhand?
401 2012-08-19 09:03:01 <amiller> i'd assume it's sometime post-satoshidice
402 2012-08-19 09:03:42 <sipa> now
403 2012-08-19 09:04:46 <amiller> i suppose if you are actually storing the whole utxo yourself, then you don't even need to compute any of the tree hashes, so it probably matches yours closely
404 2012-08-19 09:08:09 <amiller> so i'm simulating right now the worst case scenario for computation, which is a smart card client that stores absolutely nothing
405 2012-08-19 09:10:51 vampireb has joined
406 2012-08-19 09:13:50 <justmoon> gmaxwell: are you sure the statement from the wiki is correct? any pruning node will remember unspent outputs and that seems enough information to enforce BIP 30 - what am I missing?
407 2012-08-19 09:14:53 <gmaxwell> justmoon: The wiki is not talking about BIP 30.
408 2012-08-19 09:15:09 <justmoon> "the need for a pruning node to remember coinbase hashes to prevent duplicates consistently with the rest of the network"
409 2012-08-19 09:15:14 <gmaxwell> "to prevent duplicates consistently with the rest of the network" BIP 30 does not prevent duplicates.
410 2012-08-19 09:15:19 <gmaxwell> BIP 30 prevents overwriting.
411 2012-08-19 09:15:33 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
412 2012-08-19 09:15:53 <justmoon> I see, so what are they referring to?
413 2012-08-19 09:16:09 <justmoon> i.e. what do pruning nodes need to remember coinbase hashes for?
414 2012-08-19 09:16:15 <gmaxwell> Duplicate transaction IDs, which are desirable to prevent even if there is no overwriting.
415 2012-08-19 09:16:19 <amiller> well this is taking way too long so i'm gonna need to try to optimize even the "do it the hard-way" reference implementation before I announce it
416 2012-08-19 09:16:26 <amiller> still, these two files are very nice: https://github.com/amiller/redblackmerkle/blob/master/utxo_merkle.py
417 2012-08-19 09:16:32 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/redblackmerkle/blob/master/merkle_scan.py
418 2012-08-19 09:16:48 <gmaxwell> justmoon: They _don't_ need to remember the coinbase hashes because they do not prevent duplication.
419 2012-08-19 09:16:48 <amiller> in particular, utxo_merkle.py defines the serialization format for merkle tree nodes
420 2012-08-19 09:17:45 <gmaxwell> justmoon: but if they were to prevent duplication (wishlist, remember) they would need to remember the hashes... orâ as the text suggestsâ use another way of making it very likely that all coinbases will be unique.
421 2012-08-19 09:18:26 <justmoon> ah I see, ok, I'm gonna have to call the wording on the wiki misleading
422 2012-08-19 09:18:33 <justmoon> "removing the need" sounds like there is one currently
423 2012-08-19 09:20:10 <gmaxwell> justmoon: yea, fair enoughâ I suspect that was also written at a time right before bip30 when people were arguing for it to prevent duplication completely.
424 2012-08-19 09:20:31 <gmaxwell> It doesn't really belong on the page at all, because it can be done without a hardfork.
425 2012-08-19 09:21:43 <justmoon> yeah, it's easy to confuse a new rule with a hardfork
426 2012-08-19 09:21:51 <justmoon> I myself did so just the other day
427 2012-08-19 09:23:07 <justmoon> I just noticed today that the IRC logs are a couple days behind - is that intentional?
428 2012-08-19 09:23:35 <justmoon> http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2012/08
429 2012-08-19 09:25:38 <Eliel> I expect that's because sensitive information needs to be removed from them before publishing, if there's any.
430 2012-08-19 09:25:52 <Eliel> (like conversations about security problems in the code)
431 2012-08-19 09:27:13 <amiller> who reviews them?
432 2012-08-19 09:27:29 <Eliel> (notice, I'm just guessing)
433 2012-08-19 09:28:25 <gmaxwell> No, it probably broke again.
434 2012-08-19 09:28:33 <gmaxwell> It broke last week and I prodded and they fixed.
435 2012-08-19 09:28:56 <justmoon> hope I didn't break it with my stupidity :/
436 2012-08-19 09:29:01 <justmoon> ;)
437 2012-08-19 09:29:22 <justmoon> "Error, cannot handle self contradictory logic *fizzle*"
438 2012-08-19 09:29:24 <gmaxwell> The relevant email address is decker.christian@gmail.com ... someone elses turn to prod this time. :)
439 2012-08-19 09:29:31 <justmoon> I'll do it
440 2012-08-19 09:29:37 <justmoon> I have to email him anyway regarding the DHT
441 2012-08-19 09:30:16 <justmoon> (he helped review my protocol draft)
442 2012-08-19 09:31:55 <justmoon> gmaxwell: sent
443 2012-08-19 09:34:26 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
444 2012-08-19 09:41:09 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
445 2012-08-19 09:41:39 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
446 2012-08-19 09:42:04 iddo has joined
447 2012-08-19 09:47:36 <Eliel> amiller: the readme in this redblackmerkle repository hints that this proof-of-efficiency could replace Bitcoin's proof-of-work. I can't quite see why. It doesn't even prove the same thing.
448 2012-08-19 09:48:42 <amiller> the only 'necessary' property for the proof-of-work scheme is that it produces graphs of the sort i posted recently in the Hash-Value-Highway thread
449 2012-08-19 09:49:27 <Eliel> can you link to the post?
450 2012-08-19 09:49:31 <amiller> other than that, the 'ideal' properties for the proof-of-work scheme is that it incentivizes investment in whatever infrastructure is the scalability bottleneck, which in this case is the DHT
451 2012-08-19 09:49:43 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
452 2012-08-19 09:49:45 <amiller> in other words the ability of the network to store and propagate hashpreimages
453 2012-08-19 09:50:12 <amiller> Eliel, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98986.msg1109747#msg1109747
454 2012-08-19 09:53:00 <amiller> but i need to move that stuff out of the redblackmerkle repo since it's really much less important
455 2012-08-19 09:55:37 vampireb has quit (Quit: leaving)
456 2012-08-19 09:59:07 vampireb has joined
457 2012-08-19 09:59:28 <Eliel> amiller: the description of the algorithm there is a bit vague so I'm left wondering if it'll also keep the property of being fast to check but slow to find?
458 2012-08-19 10:00:31 <Eliel> ah, wait, yes it does.
459 2012-08-19 10:00:43 <amiller> Eliel, yeah it will, although it's possible the ratio would get worse by a factor of log(N) where N is something... either the number of blocks or the number of utxos
460 2012-08-19 10:02:02 <Eliel> there's one nice property in this kind of proof-of-work scheme. You can't do it without the merkle tree.
461 2012-08-19 10:03:37 Joric has joined
462 2012-08-19 10:03:38 Joric has quit (Changing host)
463 2012-08-19 10:03:38 Joric has joined
464 2012-08-19 10:03:58 <Eliel> the flipside, though, is that verifying transactions uses up the proof-of-work "power"
465 2012-08-19 10:04:35 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
466 2012-08-19 10:04:43 <amiller> no matter what, verifying transactions uses up "cost"
467 2012-08-19 10:04:56 <amiller> unless of course you skip it
468 2012-08-19 10:05:03 <amiller> the real interesting thing is the consequences this would have for mining pools
469 2012-08-19 10:05:47 <amiller> you wouldn't want the minimum-entry requirement to be "store all the blockchain data"
470 2012-08-19 10:06:05 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
471 2012-08-19 10:06:07 <amiller> but, if a mining pool basically sharded the blockchain data among its participants, then a pool could work together as long as everyone combined had it all
472 2012-08-19 10:06:22 <Eliel> wouldn't that slow down the random walks?
473 2012-08-19 10:06:27 <amiller> it would
474 2012-08-19 10:06:43 datagutt has joined
475 2012-08-19 10:06:50 <amiller> but it would be a measure of how well you could work together
476 2012-08-19 10:07:08 <amiller> it would make botnet mining impossible
477 2012-08-19 10:07:19 MobiusL has joined
478 2012-08-19 10:07:26 RainbowDashh has joined
479 2012-08-19 10:07:49 <Eliel> it would move the bottleneck from raw processing power to the speed of storage.
480 2012-08-19 10:08:53 <Eliel> I can't see a feasible way to introduce this to bitcoin. It'd have to be a new chain.
481 2012-08-19 10:09:08 <Eliel> or well, rather, it's a guaranteed fork if you try.
482 2012-08-19 10:09:14 <Eliel> split the network into 2
483 2012-08-19 10:10:16 <amiller> i think i'm mostly working on things for the next hard fork :/
484 2012-08-19 10:10:36 <Eliel> this is a very interesting idea :)
485 2012-08-19 10:11:22 <amiller> just wait till you see how far bitcoin can be pushed
486 2012-08-19 10:11:26 <Eliel> but I need to ponder on the incentive side a bit. since transaction processing and proof-of-work would be sharing the same resource pool.
487 2012-08-19 10:12:06 <amiller> Eliel, think of it this way, right now you pay for the storage of the UTXO, and the mining equipment
488 2012-08-19 10:12:07 <Eliel> as in what would it do to the transaction fees and miners' incentive to verify transactions.
489 2012-08-19 10:12:13 <amiller> when you aren't processing transactions, the UTXO is idle
490 2012-08-19 10:12:26 yellowhat has joined
491 2012-08-19 10:12:35 <amiller> simplify your concern about the incentives by supposing that you're actually "renting" mining power
492 2012-08-19 10:12:53 <amiller> like you pay a miner for each hash he computes with the coinbase going to your address
493 2012-08-19 10:13:08 <Eliel> ok, that sounds like a PPS pool now.
494 2012-08-19 10:13:12 <amiller> right!
495 2012-08-19 10:13:49 <sipa> it is
496 2012-08-19 10:14:11 danbri has joined
497 2012-08-19 10:14:23 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
498 2012-08-19 10:14:51 Anduck has joined
499 2012-08-19 10:15:21 <amiller> so of course you'll be observing shares to see that the miner is actually mining a valid block
500 2012-08-19 10:15:28 <amiller> obviously you aren't going to pay for invalid blocks
501 2012-08-19 10:16:27 <amiller> so the miner at worst just has to charge you for the cost of a "transaction validation run" the same as it would be for an extra hash attempt
502 2012-08-19 10:17:01 <amiller> so that has a really predictable cost, related to a single proof of work attempt
503 2012-08-19 10:18:37 sirk390 has left ()
504 2012-08-19 10:19:57 leotreasure has joined
505 2012-08-19 10:20:35 <Eliel> maximum k-parameter for the proof-of-work attempt would make the proof-of-work cost equal to transaction verification.
506 2012-08-19 10:21:22 <Eliel> (well, unless you add the extra rule that k can be higher than the depth of the tree by returning to the root when you hit the leaf.
507 2012-08-19 10:21:26 leotreasure has quit (Client Quit)
508 2012-08-19 10:21:37 <amiller> so i'm leaning now towards thinking it should be over the blockchain history
509 2012-08-19 10:21:41 <amiller> rather than the UTXO database
510 2012-08-19 10:21:55 <amiller> the reason why is that you need to be able to prove you're prepared and willing to validate forks
511 2012-08-19 10:22:19 <amiller> the hash-value-highway leads to a simple way of sampling randomly from the blockchain history
512 2012-08-19 10:22:32 <amiller> it's like a giant plinko board
513 2012-08-19 10:23:34 <Eliel> wouldn't that be a problem for pruning nodes?
514 2012-08-19 10:24:41 <amiller> nodes can prune whatever they want, all they need is a single block hash from the head of the chain, and access to a complete DHT
515 2012-08-19 10:24:56 <amiller> anything else they have in addition to that is just caching
516 2012-08-19 10:25:01 <amiller> (or mining)
517 2012-08-19 10:28:29 <amiller> also notice that when i say sampling, i don't mean sampling uniformly according to block-number, but according to cumulative difficulty
518 2012-08-19 10:29:43 <amiller> it's tricky to think about all of this at once, but i followed it to its logical conclusion once a few weeks ago and it results in a beautiful set of self-stabilizing incentives
519 2012-08-19 10:29:55 ovidiusoft has joined
520 2012-08-19 10:31:05 <amiller> basically bitcoin users will be afraid to have bitcoins in 'low difficulty' blocks, since those are more vulnerable to being forked _and_ to being ignored by miners
521 2012-08-19 10:31:11 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
522 2012-08-19 10:31:25 DiabloD3 has joined
523 2012-08-19 10:36:40 sirk390 has joined
524 2012-08-19 10:36:50 sirk390 has left ()
525 2012-08-19 10:39:20 <sipa> amiller: right, you'll use the sum of the difficulties of blocks they are confirmed in, rather than their number
526 2012-08-19 10:39:41 <amiller> sipa, did you look at my cool graphs
527 2012-08-19 10:39:46 <sipa> not yet!
528 2012-08-19 10:40:44 <amiller> when i saw how clearly uniform the "cumulative work" chart looks, i flipped out a bit
529 2012-08-19 10:41:11 roxx has joined
530 2012-08-19 10:45:32 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
531 2012-08-19 10:48:16 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
532 2012-08-19 10:48:38 denisx has joined
533 2012-08-19 10:49:18 BCBot has joined
534 2012-08-19 10:49:49 denisx_ has joined
535 2012-08-19 10:53:06 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
536 2012-08-19 10:53:06 denisx_ is now known as denisx
537 2012-08-19 10:54:58 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
538 2012-08-19 10:57:13 BCBot has joined
539 2012-08-19 10:59:36 roxx has quit (Quit: roxx)
540 2012-08-19 11:00:07 iddo has quit (Changing host)
541 2012-08-19 11:00:07 iddo has joined
542 2012-08-19 11:02:25 eb3fu has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
543 2012-08-19 11:06:04 <amiller> it takes no more than 3gigs to store ALL the merkle trees for the first 100k transactions
544 2012-08-19 11:06:32 <amiller> that's what you'd need to immediately begin validating an arbitrary length fork, so that's basically what would need to be in a DHT
545 2012-08-19 11:06:59 <amiller> to store all the merkle trees in history is basically N log N
546 2012-08-19 11:07:10 <amiller> but storage is easy
547 2012-08-19 11:08:56 <Joric> samr7 wrote a distributed vanitygen yesterday https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25804
548 2012-08-19 11:08:58 Marf has joined
549 2012-08-19 11:11:59 BCBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
550 2012-08-19 11:12:44 BCBot has joined
551 2012-08-19 11:12:56 tsche has joined
552 2012-08-19 11:13:23 cdecker has joined
553 2012-08-19 11:14:08 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
554 2012-08-19 11:24:39 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
555 2012-08-19 11:25:02 BCBot has joined
556 2012-08-19 11:28:00 BCBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
557 2012-08-19 11:28:21 LuaKT has joined
558 2012-08-19 11:31:51 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
559 2012-08-19 11:35:10 Motest003 has joined
560 2012-08-19 11:35:14 Motest031 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
561 2012-08-19 11:35:51 BCBot has joined
562 2012-08-19 11:38:44 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
563 2012-08-19 11:39:55 BCBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
564 2012-08-19 11:40:42 BCBot has joined
565 2012-08-19 11:56:40 tsche has quit ()
566 2012-08-19 11:59:56 Turingi has joined
567 2012-08-19 12:06:32 edcba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
568 2012-08-19 12:07:36 edcba has joined
569 2012-08-19 12:10:39 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
570 2012-08-19 12:11:09 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
571 2012-08-19 12:12:07 aq83 has joined
572 2012-08-19 12:12:16 tsche has joined
573 2012-08-19 12:13:33 Detritus has joined
574 2012-08-19 12:15:02 vampireb has joined
575 2012-08-19 12:15:23 yellowhat has joined
576 2012-08-19 12:21:21 Goilio has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
577 2012-08-19 12:28:38 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
578 2012-08-19 12:44:03 D34TH has joined
579 2012-08-19 12:44:03 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
580 2012-08-19 12:44:03 D34TH has joined
581 2012-08-19 12:49:17 ThomasV has joined
582 2012-08-19 12:53:20 enquirer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
583 2012-08-19 12:55:42 bitzero has joined
584 2012-08-19 12:59:29 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
585 2012-08-19 13:02:54 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
586 2012-08-19 13:04:45 Ashbentiel has joined
587 2012-08-19 13:04:58 eco_ has joined
588 2012-08-19 13:07:19 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
589 2012-08-19 13:07:33 cdecker has joined
590 2012-08-19 13:20:59 robocoin has joined
591 2012-08-19 13:27:33 tsche has quit ()
592 2012-08-19 13:31:22 one_zero has quit ()
593 2012-08-19 13:37:05 Gladamas has joined
594 2012-08-19 13:40:17 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
595 2012-08-19 13:42:40 robocoin has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
596 2012-08-19 13:53:51 nhodges has joined
597 2012-08-19 13:58:08 darkee has quit (!~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee|Remote host closed the connection)
598 2012-08-19 13:59:04 darkee has joined
599 2012-08-19 14:07:41 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
600 2012-08-19 14:08:42 rdponticelli has joined
601 2012-08-19 14:14:10 sirk390 has joined
602 2012-08-19 14:15:47 nhodges has quit (Changing host)
603 2012-08-19 14:15:47 nhodges has joined
604 2012-08-19 14:15:48 skeledrew has joined
605 2012-08-19 14:19:11 tucenaber has quit (Quit: Bye)
606 2012-08-19 14:21:35 leotreasure has joined
607 2012-08-19 14:22:34 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
608 2012-08-19 14:25:13 enquirer has joined
609 2012-08-19 14:26:33 <denisx> jgarzik: do I understand it correctly that the histtable to check for duplicates in pushpoold grows until it reaches 10000 and then it stays there?
610 2012-08-19 14:28:05 Zarutian has joined
611 2012-08-19 14:30:10 torsthaldo has joined
612 2012-08-19 14:32:12 eco_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
613 2012-08-19 14:32:28 <amiller> alright, merkle tree protocol specification and reference implementation is up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101734.0
614 2012-08-19 14:36:40 malaimo has joined
615 2012-08-19 14:37:48 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
616 2012-08-19 14:42:49 <Eliel> amiller: one thought occurred to me about this UTXO merkle tree. Couldn't you cut the size needed to store the merkle tree by 50% by not storing the leaf hashes? Those can always by recalculated O(1)
617 2012-08-19 14:43:02 <amiller> yup
618 2012-08-19 14:43:44 minimoose has joined
619 2012-08-19 14:44:06 * Eliel wonders how many levels you could leave out without making a big impact on operations.
620 2012-08-19 14:46:18 <Eliel> does ultrapune database contain the UTXO list sorted by txid?
621 2012-08-19 14:48:14 <amiller> yes
622 2012-08-19 14:50:39 <Eliel> ok, that potentially makes reading neighboring txs fast, so you could maybe get away with not storing up to 3-levels of the merkle tree without an IO penalty on a harddrive.
623 2012-08-19 14:50:44 roconnor has joined
624 2012-08-19 14:51:37 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
625 2012-08-19 14:51:44 <Eliel> that'd drop the space requirement for the merkle tree by 87.5% (assuming all nodes take equal space)
626 2012-08-19 14:52:47 <Eliel> ah wait, I'm over-optimistic here
627 2012-08-19 14:52:53 <Eliel> you can't drop all the data, just the hashes
628 2012-08-19 14:53:58 vampireb has joined
629 2012-08-19 14:55:32 user has joined
630 2012-08-19 14:56:05 <amiller> also full validation requires recomputing the all the new hashes at least for each block
631 2012-08-19 14:56:14 <amiller> for example you never need to compute the intermediate root hash in between transactions within a block
632 2012-08-19 14:56:39 <amiller> but you'd have to compute the root hash after the last block
633 2012-08-19 14:57:01 <amiller> you'd be able to cut out some constant fraction of the hash computations this way
634 2012-08-19 14:57:57 <Eliel> how big does the merkle tree get? excluding the UTXO database itself?
635 2012-08-19 15:00:17 <amiller> i don't know, it got up to 2 gigabytes before block 140k, according to 'top' when I ran it, but that's with python's overhead for nested tuples, and no compression at all (the keys are mostly redundant)
636 2012-08-19 15:03:22 <Eliel> python's overhead can be rather massive.
637 2012-08-19 15:07:30 <amiller> my guess is that the storage requirements for the UTXO will be an order of magnitude greater than in ultraprune, but the tradeoff is that even a full-validation node doesn't even need to store the whole thing
638 2012-08-19 15:07:46 <amiller> storage is the relatively easy part
639 2012-08-19 15:08:11 <Joric> 'standard Satoshi bitcoin client (...) To do this, select Help -> Debug Window, and in the window, on the bottom line, enter importprivkey <privatekey>' what is this sorcery? 0.7? is there a win32 build of that?
640 2012-08-19 15:08:13 <amiller> since this proposal only involves untrusted data, it's easy to imagine bittorrenting everything
641 2012-08-19 15:09:05 <Joric> or maybe there is a command line key for enabling the debug window
642 2012-08-19 15:10:01 <Eliel> amiller: I'd think it's relatively easy to estimate the size.
643 2012-08-19 15:10:44 <amiller> sure, the total number of nodes is 2*N, and so that's the number of unique node hashes
644 2012-08-19 15:10:53 <Eliel> amiller: is 4 bytes enough for the index?
645 2012-08-19 15:10:56 <amiller> the leaf nodes are already hashes of keys so that includes it
646 2012-08-19 15:11:06 <amiller> not only is 4 bytes enough, but you could like, delta compress them
647 2012-08-19 15:11:21 <amiller> lets just say we say they're amortized zero and try to lower-bound it
648 2012-08-19 15:11:40 <amiller> 2*N*32 bytes
649 2012-08-19 15:12:05 <amiller> What's N? sipa said that the peak UTXO count occurs right now (i think that's probably true)
650 2012-08-19 15:12:22 <amiller> how many UTXO's are there right now?
651 2012-08-19 15:12:52 <Eliel> we don't need that. N should cancel itself out if we calculate the relative size
652 2012-08-19 15:13:00 <amiller> the relative size isn't fixed
653 2012-08-19 15:13:36 <Eliel> why not? transaction size variance?
654 2012-08-19 15:13:46 <amiller> it's not really about transaction size variance but about number of txoutputs
655 2012-08-19 15:13:49 <amiller> the number of txoutputs varies
656 2012-08-19 15:14:09 <amiller> also the point is that UTXOs get removed from the set once they're spent
657 2012-08-19 15:15:18 <amiller> this is a statistic that should be included in blockchain.info and such! but apparently it's the case that you'd need to be running sipa's ultraprune to even have a shot at calculating that
658 2012-08-19 15:15:37 Matt_von_Mises has joined
659 2012-08-19 15:17:22 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
660 2012-08-19 15:17:27 sirk390 has joined
661 2012-08-19 15:18:44 <Eliel> well, let's see how long this executes :D "select count(a.txout_id) FROM txout a LEFT OUTER JOIN txin b ON (b.txout_id=a.txout_id) WHERE b.txin_id IS NULL"
662 2012-08-19 15:19:40 roxx has joined
663 2012-08-19 15:20:05 roxx has quit (Client Quit)
664 2012-08-19 15:21:28 MC-Eeepc has joined
665 2012-08-19 15:21:34 <amiller> if sipa says 80mb, and an address is roughly 32 bytes, i'd guess there are about 250,000
666 2012-08-19 15:21:35 roxx has joined
667 2012-08-19 15:22:13 <amiller> that's assuming there are on average one outstanding txout per transaction
668 2012-08-19 15:22:56 <amiller> otherwise, sipa's database would be getting an advantage and mine have to count 2*N against the full number of unique txouts, no matter how many are grouped together with a single txid
669 2012-08-19 15:23:25 <Joric> oh cool got that version with debug window here http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoind/next/test/20120813/bitcoin-next-test-20120813-win32.zip
670 2012-08-19 15:27:52 <jgarzik> no orphan chains last night... pynode still up
671 2012-08-19 15:28:49 <amiller> i thought you fixed reorgs!
672 2012-08-19 15:29:59 <Joric> i love debug window ^_^
673 2012-08-19 15:36:15 <Joric> heh i thought gettransaction is a full blown json transaction it's just some really basic information, json-formatted
674 2012-08-19 15:38:14 <Joric> at least getrawtransaction is fine, bw can decode those
675 2012-08-19 15:40:30 <denisx> jgarzik: do I understand it correctly that the histtable to check for duplicates in pushpoold grows until it reaches 10000 and then it stays there?
676 2012-08-19 15:43:17 <jgarzik> denisx: yes
677 2012-08-19 15:44:37 <denisx> jgarzik: I think that list can be cleared when a new block is found
678 2012-08-19 15:44:40 <Eliel> amiller: 2049000 is the count of txouts that haven't been linked to a txin in my bitcoin-abe database.
679 2012-08-19 15:45:48 <amiller> mmm estimation for-the-win, i kind of have a streak going
680 2012-08-19 15:46:11 iocor has joined
681 2012-08-19 15:46:13 iocor has quit (Changing host)
682 2012-08-19 15:46:13 iocor has joined
683 2012-08-19 15:46:36 <amiller> wait i was off by an order of magnitude
684 2012-08-19 15:46:59 <amiller> (so much for my streak) i wonder if that means that many of them are grouped in transactions
685 2012-08-19 15:47:16 <amiller> can you tell me how many unique txout's are represented in there?
686 2012-08-19 15:48:22 <Eliel> you mean unique txouts as in how many of those txouts are the only txout in their txid?
687 2012-08-19 15:49:38 roxx has quit (Quit: roxx)
688 2012-08-19 15:49:49 <amiller> the number of unique txid's that currently have an unspent-txout
689 2012-08-19 15:50:47 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
690 2012-08-19 15:51:31 agricocb has joined
691 2012-08-19 15:51:39 <amiller> this would let me relate the estimated size of the UTXO-tree, which can't take advantage of compressibility when there are few txid's compared to txouts, to the current ultraprune-UTXO, which can
692 2012-08-19 15:51:42 <Eliel> ... ok, let me scratch my head on how to make this into SQL statement first :)
693 2012-08-19 15:51:46 <amiller> :p
694 2012-08-19 15:52:43 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
695 2012-08-19 15:53:56 agricocb has joined
696 2012-08-19 15:55:17 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
697 2012-08-19 15:55:45 MC-Eeepc has joined
698 2012-08-19 15:57:32 pickett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
699 2012-08-19 15:58:32 pickett has joined
700 2012-08-19 16:00:02 <Eliel> it's a shame it's the txin table that references txout table and not the other way around. would be a fast one table query otherwise :)
701 2012-08-19 16:00:06 <Eliel> well, afte adding an index.
702 2012-08-19 16:02:25 <Eliel> amiller: 1027344 txids
703 2012-08-19 16:03:13 <genjix> jgarzik: what do you think about manned mars missions? i think they are the most important goal of the human race, so when i see this, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1601.msg20309#msg20309 , it kills me inside.
704 2012-08-19 16:04:07 <amiller> ohh pff, i _was_ correct with my estimate, i just copied the number wrong - i estimated 2,000,000 uto's based on 80mb ultraprune and my streak is intact.
705 2012-08-19 16:05:33 <amiller> Eliel, here's a simple one - what's the total number of txouts, in history, not just the currently unspent ones?
706 2012-08-19 16:06:08 Marf has joined
707 2012-08-19 16:08:24 <amiller> thanks by the way for running these interesting queries
708 2012-08-19 16:08:53 <amiller> if you were to pm me a bitcoin address i would send it a bitcoin out of gratitude
709 2012-08-19 16:10:32 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
710 2012-08-19 16:11:07 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
711 2012-08-19 16:12:34 <Eliel> amiller: 14072679 total txouts
712 2012-08-19 16:15:27 <Eliel> amiller: these stats are 4 blocks old though at the moment though :)
713 2012-08-19 16:15:52 <amiller> interesting, i know from blockchain.info that there are about 1195159 transactions
714 2012-08-19 16:16:19 <Eliel> the cronjob only runs once an hour to update the database
715 2012-08-19 16:16:39 da2ce7 has joined
716 2012-08-19 16:16:48 <lianj> amiller: more like 6,192,500
717 2012-08-19 16:17:12 <amiller> yeah
718 2012-08-19 16:17:20 <amiller> 16,471,556 actually
719 2012-08-19 16:17:41 <lianj> where does that number come from?
720 2012-08-19 16:17:48 <amiller> http://blockchain.info/tx-index/16471556/32ef4bc10f573fa7ae4ed9ec19ac2bdae688753ea9629970082252244a0916ea
721 2012-08-19 16:18:24 <amiller> maybe i'm misinterpreting that as the actual transaction sequence number, and it's just something blockchain.info uses?
722 2012-08-19 16:18:43 <amiller> 6,192,500 makes much more sense :/
723 2012-08-19 16:18:55 <amiller> an average of 2 txout per tx is what i would expect
724 2012-08-19 16:20:33 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
725 2012-08-19 16:22:03 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
726 2012-08-19 16:22:08 <lianj> definitely more like 6,192,500
727 2012-08-19 16:22:20 Cablesaurus has joined
728 2012-08-19 16:25:52 roxx has joined
729 2012-08-19 16:48:25 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
730 2012-08-19 16:48:34 enquirer has quit (Quit: back soon)
731 2012-08-19 16:49:36 tsche has joined
732 2012-08-19 16:55:07 <Eliel> amiller: that 16,471,556 is likely the database row id number.
733 2012-08-19 16:59:54 <genjix> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101686.msg1113153#msg1113153
734 2012-08-19 17:00:04 <genjix> this post is very confusing to me.
735 2012-08-19 17:01:49 sirk390 has joined
736 2012-08-19 17:02:48 <Eliel> if that's the goal, then it really should be clearly stated on bitcoin.org website.
737 2012-08-19 17:02:58 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Man who run behind car get exhausted)
738 2012-08-19 17:03:38 <Eliel> along with pointers on where to go if you're not a geeky type who knows how to keep their computer secure :P
739 2012-08-19 17:05:53 Cablesaurus has joined
740 2012-08-19 17:06:42 bit01010101 has joined
741 2012-08-19 17:07:45 bitzero has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
742 2012-08-19 17:08:05 Matt_von_Mises has left ()
743 2012-08-19 17:13:22 sunshinehappy has joined
744 2012-08-19 17:14:29 <jgarzik> tcatm_: bitcoinwatch.com block count is wrong
745 2012-08-19 17:17:02 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
746 2012-08-19 17:19:47 <D34TH> question: would it be better to loadblocks 0001 or 0002
747 2012-08-19 17:19:56 <D34TH> i.e. does 0002 chain 0001
748 2012-08-19 17:25:37 <jgarzik> D34TH: blk0002.dat is the continuation of blk0001.dat. You need both, and you want to start at blk0001.dat.
749 2012-08-19 17:27:06 <D34TH> thanks
750 2012-08-19 17:29:35 <jgarzik> genjix: yeah, they are sillyheads. everyone is entitled to their opinions, and everyone has different priorities.... I think we make Earth better by exploring other planets. Other people prefer to spend Earth money on Earth things.
751 2012-08-19 17:30:37 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: is mempool ACK-worthy? after reverting my most recent change, mempool/getdata changes are as you remember them
752 2012-08-19 17:31:10 <jgarzik> sipa: I think genjix' argument convinced me that making mempool part of the mandatory NODE_NETWORK protocol is the best thing to do
753 2012-08-19 17:31:29 <jgarzik> in a year, we will all be glad it was included in the base proto
754 2012-08-19 17:32:56 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
755 2012-08-19 17:41:09 da2ce7_d has joined
756 2012-08-19 17:43:29 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
757 2012-08-19 17:46:33 denisx has joined
758 2012-08-19 17:46:49 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
759 2012-08-19 17:47:27 sunshinehappy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
760 2012-08-19 17:48:17 t2che has joined
761 2012-08-19 17:50:11 ThomasV has joined
762 2012-08-19 17:51:39 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
763 2012-08-19 17:55:53 Guest72702 has joined
764 2012-08-19 17:58:12 <Eliel> jgarzik: I got the impression his beef wasn't with space exploration or science but rather that the money for it is collected by force.
765 2012-08-19 17:58:39 B0g4r7__ has joined
766 2012-08-19 17:58:40 <Eliel> as in, it'd be fine if it was based on voluntary contributions.
767 2012-08-19 18:02:21 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
768 2012-08-19 18:02:31 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
769 2012-08-19 18:05:22 jurov is now known as away!xzbnxup@84.245.71.31|jurov
770 2012-08-19 18:13:00 Ashbentiel has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
771 2012-08-19 18:18:46 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
772 2012-08-19 18:19:01 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
773 2012-08-19 18:19:16 agricocb has joined
774 2012-08-19 18:19:20 molecular has joined
775 2012-08-19 18:24:21 RazielZ has joined
776 2012-08-19 18:24:27 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
777 2012-08-19 18:27:32 ovidiusoft has quit (Read error: No route to host)
778 2012-08-19 18:27:56 ovidiusoft has joined
779 2012-08-19 18:28:05 Zarutian has joined
780 2012-08-19 18:32:21 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
781 2012-08-19 18:35:04 phantomcircuit has joined
782 2012-08-19 18:45:17 eb3fu has joined
783 2012-08-19 18:46:41 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
784 2012-08-19 18:47:40 devrandom has joined
785 2012-08-19 18:54:20 BCBot2 has joined
786 2012-08-19 18:54:41 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
787 2012-08-19 18:54:56 BCBot2 has joined
788 2012-08-19 18:58:28 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
789 2012-08-19 19:00:22 BCBot2 has joined
790 2012-08-19 19:00:30 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
791 2012-08-19 19:02:22 BCBot2 has joined
792 2012-08-19 19:02:35 BCBot2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
793 2012-08-19 19:03:35 BCBot2 has joined
794 2012-08-19 19:05:43 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
795 2012-08-19 19:05:59 BCBot2 has joined
796 2012-08-19 19:08:04 RazielZ has joined
797 2012-08-19 19:09:12 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
798 2012-08-19 19:09:26 BCBot2 has joined
799 2012-08-19 19:10:03 Raziel_ has joined
800 2012-08-19 19:10:59 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
801 2012-08-19 19:11:01 sunshinehappy has joined
802 2012-08-19 19:13:59 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
803 2012-08-19 19:14:11 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
804 2012-08-19 19:14:39 BCBot2 has joined
805 2012-08-19 19:17:21 t2che has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
806 2012-08-19 19:19:16 BCBot2 has quit (Client Quit)
807 2012-08-19 19:19:35 BCBot2 has joined
808 2012-08-19 19:20:50 rdponticelli has joined
809 2012-08-19 19:21:52 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
810 2012-08-19 19:22:38 tsche has joined
811 2012-08-19 19:27:30 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
812 2012-08-19 19:33:20 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
813 2012-08-19 19:35:09 roxx has quit (Quit: roxx)
814 2012-08-19 19:37:33 sirk390 has joined
815 2012-08-19 19:37:47 sirk390 has quit (Client Quit)
816 2012-08-19 19:40:30 paraipan has joined
817 2012-08-19 19:43:30 datagutt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
818 2012-08-19 19:45:00 question has joined
819 2012-08-19 19:45:17 <question> hellow
820 2012-08-19 19:45:25 <question> i have got a question
821 2012-08-19 19:45:30 <lianj> ask
822 2012-08-19 19:45:31 <sunshinehappy> hi
823 2012-08-19 19:45:54 <question> when my bitcoin wallet loads there is a message i ave never seen before
824 2012-08-19 19:46:19 <question> it asked me to upgrade or my nodes need to upgrade
825 2012-08-19 19:46:28 <question> i have downloaded the lastest version twice
826 2012-08-19 19:46:41 <question> can anywone help me
827 2012-08-19 19:46:53 <gmaxwell> question: what block number are you on? and is the block count going up?
828 2012-08-19 19:47:05 <question> the block count is stopped
829 2012-08-19 19:47:11 <gmaxwell> Stopped at what?
830 2012-08-19 19:47:13 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
831 2012-08-19 19:47:14 <gribble> 194678
832 2012-08-19 19:47:23 <question> i will tell you when the wallet is finished loading
833 2012-08-19 19:47:30 phantomcircuit has joined
834 2012-08-19 19:48:43 <question> it can take 5 , cpu ! :(
835 2012-08-19 19:49:46 Gladamas has quit (Quit: switching proxies)
836 2012-08-19 19:50:02 Gladamas has joined
837 2012-08-19 19:53:05 <question> the message below in the wallet where normally the block counts : Warning : displayed transactions may not be correct ! you may need to upgrade , or other nodes need to upgrade
838 2012-08-19 19:53:08 <question> the block :
839 2012-08-19 19:53:35 <question> 193745
840 2012-08-19 19:55:58 <question> gmaxwell
841 2012-08-19 19:56:11 RainbowDashh has joined
842 2012-08-19 19:57:24 question has quit (Quit: Page closed)
843 2012-08-19 20:00:39 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
844 2012-08-19 20:01:31 phantomcircuit has quit (Disconnected by services)
845 2012-08-19 20:01:34 phantomcircuit_ is now known as phantomcircuit
846 2012-08-19 20:04:48 asa has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet)
847 2012-08-19 20:04:56 danbri has joined
848 2012-08-19 20:05:05 cande has joined
849 2012-08-19 20:06:00 sirk390 has joined
850 2012-08-19 20:06:01 <cande> i get tons of errors when downloading the block chain
851 2012-08-19 20:06:48 <cande> i'm tailing the logfile
852 2012-08-19 20:07:53 <gmaxwell> cande: some 'errors' are normal and not errors at all.
853 2012-08-19 20:07:56 <gmaxwell> Can you pastebin.
854 2012-08-19 20:08:00 <cande> sure
855 2012-08-19 20:08:13 Siskiyou has joined
856 2012-08-19 20:08:29 <jgarzik> w00t. pynode seems to have survive the bitcoincharts reorganize torture test.
857 2012-08-19 20:08:38 <jgarzik> *survived
858 2012-08-19 20:08:42 <cande> http://pastebin.com/DLrD2xNZ
859 2012-08-19 20:09:06 <cande> gmaxwell ^
860 2012-08-19 20:09:06 <jgarzik> now downloading the rest of the chain, then for some night-long automated verification testing
861 2012-08-19 20:09:26 Raziel_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
862 2012-08-19 20:10:32 <cande> gmaxwell, okej, now it's accepting tons of blocks with very few errors
863 2012-08-19 20:11:01 <gmaxwell> cande: yea, those aren't actual errors. Thats expected.
864 2012-08-19 20:11:15 <gmaxwell> It's just new transactions which you can't yet validate because you aren't caught up yet.
865 2012-08-19 20:11:20 Guest66761 is now known as vegard
866 2012-08-19 20:11:32 <cande> ah
867 2012-08-19 20:11:45 RazielZ has joined
868 2012-08-19 20:14:27 Guest18476 is now known as bdcs
869 2012-08-19 20:15:01 BTCTrader has joined
870 2012-08-19 20:15:01 BTCTrader has quit (Changing host)
871 2012-08-19 20:15:01 BTCTrader has joined
872 2012-08-19 20:15:12 bdcs has quit (Changing host)
873 2012-08-19 20:15:12 bdcs has joined
874 2012-08-19 20:15:46 <cande> gmaxwell, thx
875 2012-08-19 20:16:47 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
876 2012-08-19 20:16:59 Siskiyou has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
877 2012-08-19 20:23:37 leotreasure has quit (Quit: leotreasure)
878 2012-08-19 20:25:21 guruvan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
879 2012-08-19 20:27:28 guruvan_ has joined
880 2012-08-19 20:28:28 Cablesaurus has quit (Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.)
881 2012-08-19 20:30:38 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
882 2012-08-19 20:31:18 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
883 2012-08-19 20:31:43 roxx has joined
884 2012-08-19 20:32:28 RainbowD_ has joined
885 2012-08-19 20:33:55 asa has joined
886 2012-08-19 20:34:46 sirk390 has joined
887 2012-08-19 20:35:01 rdponticelli has joined
888 2012-08-19 20:35:05 RainbowD_ is now known as RainbowDashh
889 2012-08-19 20:37:10 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
890 2012-08-19 20:43:08 ThomasV_ has joined
891 2012-08-19 20:44:12 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
892 2012-08-19 20:44:48 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
893 2012-08-19 20:51:45 graingert has joined
894 2012-08-19 21:01:25 olp has joined
895 2012-08-19 21:01:30 Guest72702 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
896 2012-08-19 21:03:23 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
897 2012-08-19 21:04:03 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, no problems with mempool
898 2012-08-19 21:05:12 toffoo has joined
899 2012-08-19 21:05:59 cdecker has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
900 2012-08-19 21:06:49 <sipa> amiller: an UTXO takes on average 23 bytes in ultraprune
901 2012-08-19 21:07:09 <sipa> but each tx has an overhead of 36 bytes or so
902 2012-08-19 21:08:14 cdecker has joined
903 2012-08-19 21:08:16 <amiller> does your database (i assume bdb still) take advantage of the fact that the txids are only roughly 50% unique?
904 2012-08-19 21:09:34 <sipa> ?
905 2012-08-19 21:09:49 <sipa> it's a txid -> utxo map
906 2012-08-19 21:10:03 <sipa> the data itself does not contain txids
907 2012-08-19 21:10:07 Joric_ has joined
908 2012-08-19 21:10:15 <amiller> er, i skimmed your code and concluded you used a packed format rather than bdb but i'm not too sure
909 2012-08-19 21:10:16 <amiller> hm.
910 2012-08-19 21:10:16 Joric_ has quit (Changing host)
911 2012-08-19 21:10:16 Joric_ has joined
912 2012-08-19 21:10:23 <sipa> i use bdb
913 2012-08-19 21:10:38 <sipa> but CCoins is the utxo's of one tx
914 2012-08-19 21:10:47 <sipa> and that is serialized
915 2012-08-19 21:11:49 Joric has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
916 2012-08-19 21:11:53 <sipa> but the txouts themselves are very cheap, 21 bytes for a normal pay to pubkeyhash script, and 2 bytes for the amount
917 2012-08-19 21:12:07 <sipa> it's the txids that are expensive
918 2012-08-19 21:13:04 Joric_ is now known as Joric
919 2012-08-19 21:13:25 <amiller> fair enough, i'm predicting i'm going to hit 64 bytes or so additional per txout
920 2012-08-19 21:14:20 <amiller> bah, i just realized i forgot to actually implement the "ADDR" index type
921 2012-08-19 21:17:35 danbri has joined
922 2012-08-19 21:17:57 <sipa> amiller: 64 bytes per txout, or per tx?
923 2012-08-19 21:18:03 <amiller> per txout
924 2012-08-19 21:18:39 <amiller> nothing _additional_ txid i don't think
925 2012-08-19 21:18:42 <amiller> per txid*
926 2012-08-19 21:18:48 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
927 2012-08-19 21:20:26 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
928 2012-08-19 21:23:49 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
929 2012-08-19 21:25:00 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
930 2012-08-19 21:30:57 Cablesaurus has joined
931 2012-08-19 21:30:59 Cablesaurus has quit (Changing host)
932 2012-08-19 21:30:59 Cablesaurus has joined
933 2012-08-19 21:33:03 <amiller> i'm looking into 'camlistore', its an a system for "content addressable storage" camlistore.org
934 2012-08-19 21:34:17 TAiS46 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
935 2012-08-19 21:38:38 rdponticelli has joined
936 2012-08-19 21:44:23 cdecker has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
937 2012-08-19 21:44:54 olp has joined
938 2012-08-19 21:44:58 cdecker has joined
939 2012-08-19 21:47:57 Goilio has joined
940 2012-08-19 21:50:36 cdecker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
941 2012-08-19 21:55:06 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
942 2012-08-19 21:55:11 <amiller> maybe this is a closer fit: http://twistedstorage.sourceforge.net/features.html
943 2012-08-19 21:56:42 <amiller> bah, none of this stuff is widely used
944 2012-08-19 21:57:38 denisx has joined
945 2012-08-19 22:04:32 Goilio has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
946 2012-08-19 22:08:34 jurov is now known as jurov|away
947 2012-08-19 22:10:01 <sipa> amiller: i have no idea what that site is about
948 2012-08-19 22:10:07 <sipa> something about storage of documents
949 2012-08-19 22:11:28 <amiller> i was kind of hoping there would be a simple library that's like a key-value store, except only for when (key,value) = (H(value), value)
950 2012-08-19 22:12:01 <amiller> apache cassandra for example is a great key value store but it has a lot of unnecessary overhead related to collisions/consistency
951 2012-08-19 22:13:07 <amiller> i say
952 2012-08-19 22:13:09 <amiller> er, i say "a lot of overhead" but that might not be justified
953 2012-08-19 22:14:03 BTCTrader has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
954 2012-08-19 22:14:38 <ageis> distributed keystores mmm
955 2012-08-19 22:15:13 <amiller> most of the values are highly redundant, and in fact they overlap with the set of keys too - so if such a library exists, i wouldn't have to worry about it and it would compress it all for me
956 2012-08-19 22:15:33 BTCTrader has joined
957 2012-08-19 22:16:24 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
958 2012-08-19 22:21:55 user has quit (Quit: Leaving)
959 2012-08-19 22:22:16 user has joined
960 2012-08-19 22:24:40 minimoose has joined
961 2012-08-19 22:29:17 TD has joined
962 2012-08-19 22:29:38 agricocb has joined
963 2012-08-19 22:36:02 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
964 2012-08-19 22:38:09 curiositi has joined
965 2012-08-19 22:45:52 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
966 2012-08-19 22:56:27 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
967 2012-08-19 22:57:12 <bdcs> It doesn't really matter, he got every block ; )
968 2012-08-19 22:57:23 <bdcs> nm, was scrolled way up
969 2012-08-19 23:01:12 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
970 2012-08-19 23:02:43 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
971 2012-08-19 23:03:55 <amiller> oh you know what
972 2012-08-19 23:05:07 <amiller> hrm, if you build/store the UTXO-sets as a binary tree with the same balancing algorithm, you really don't need to compute _any_ hashes
973 2012-08-19 23:05:20 <amiller> you can always compute the hashes later, whenever you feel like it
974 2012-08-19 23:05:54 <amiller> that means you could boot strap real fast.
975 2012-08-19 23:06:04 <amiller> and validate probabilistically
976 2012-08-19 23:07:11 <amiller> to validate probabilistically, you would do the full tree balancing procedure at each step, and you would recompute all the hashes at random intervals
977 2012-08-19 23:07:38 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
978 2012-08-19 23:07:45 denisx_ has joined
979 2012-08-19 23:09:06 _W_ has quit (Excess Flood)
980 2012-08-19 23:09:14 _W_ has joined
981 2012-08-19 23:10:21 <amiller> okay, i think i suddenly understand the significance of tries vs balanced trees, but it's subtle :/
982 2012-08-19 23:11:37 <Eliel> amiller: do tell :)
983 2012-08-19 23:11:37 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
984 2012-08-19 23:11:38 denisx_ is now known as denisx
985 2012-08-19 23:12:00 <amiller> the way i implement balanced trees, it's optimally efficient to store all the trees in history at once
986 2012-08-19 23:12:11 <amiller> this is known as a "persistent authenticated dictionary"
987 2012-08-19 23:12:17 <amiller> and it's why this structure would let us fork without reorgs
988 2012-08-19 23:12:57 rdponticelli has joined
989 2012-08-19 23:13:32 <amiller> you wouldn't need to reorg, or at least reorgs would be simpler, you just switch your head pointer and revalidate from ther
990 2012-08-19 23:14:25 gavinandresen has joined
991 2012-08-19 23:14:46 <Eliel> and the difference tries would make?
992 2012-08-19 23:15:31 <denisx> have the asics arrived?
993 2012-08-19 23:15:37 <denisx> the hashrate is exploding
994 2012-08-19 23:15:43 <amiller> erm, maybe tries can do that as well.
995 2012-08-19 23:17:17 <Eliel> denisx: I wouldn't call that exploding just yet.
996 2012-08-19 23:17:22 <Eliel> if it keeps going up, then maybe
997 2012-08-19 23:17:29 <Eliel> but it's still within normal range.
998 2012-08-19 23:17:43 LuaKT has quit ()
999 2012-08-19 23:18:00 <denisx> I think it is to steep for a normal range
1000 2012-08-19 23:18:29 <Eliel> denisx: look at the hashrate growth during last summer. That was steeper
1001 2012-08-19 23:19:18 <denisx> Eliel: I hope youre right! ;)
1002 2012-08-19 23:25:36 <sipa> amiller: that's hiw roconnor implemented it in purecoin
1003 2012-08-19 23:25:45 <sipa> *how
1004 2012-08-19 23:26:12 * amiller should probably look at more of pure coin
1005 2012-08-19 23:26:35 <amiller> i don't remember my link to purecoin, i asked roconnor for it in private but it seemed like he didn't want it out in the open
1006 2012-08-19 23:26:48 <sipa> it's on his darcs repository
1007 2012-08-19 23:27:03 <gmaxwell> darcs http://r6.ca/Purecoin
1008 2012-08-19 23:27:11 LightRider has joined
1009 2012-08-19 23:27:47 <amiller> i'm going to ask him if i can mirror it to github
1010 2012-08-19 23:28:07 <sipa> roconnor: can amiller mirror purecoin on github?
1011 2012-08-19 23:28:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: welcome back, by the way
1012 2012-08-19 23:28:40 <gavinandresen> thanks
1013 2012-08-19 23:28:55 ThomasV_ has joined
1014 2012-08-19 23:31:19 <genjix> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiVnMazRIII
1015 2012-08-19 23:32:37 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1016 2012-08-19 23:33:04 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1017 2012-08-19 23:34:44 <amiller> i should just take the haskell library i used for my specification, cram hashes into it, and check it for equivalence to my current implementation.
1018 2012-08-19 23:35:15 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1019 2012-08-19 23:35:15 Motest031 has joined
1020 2012-08-19 23:35:20 <amiller> i bet haskell's object-graphs are way more efficient
1021 2012-08-19 23:35:48 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1022 2012-08-19 23:36:24 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1023 2012-08-19 23:36:49 <Eliel> amiller: that sounds much better than doing it in python :)
1024 2012-08-19 23:37:24 <amiller> it's either going to have to recompute a ton of hashes, or it's going to have to memoize everything
1025 2012-08-19 23:37:58 <amiller> i wonder if haskell does something intelligent like implement a least-recently-used cache so i can have a huge virtual memory space and it will start putting things on disk
1026 2012-08-19 23:38:25 <Eliel> not without you telling it to do so by using a data structure that does that.
1027 2012-08-19 23:38:58 <Eliel> actually, I'm not sure if what you want to do is possible.
1028 2012-08-19 23:39:54 <Eliel> well, it probably is now that I think about it. No idea if anyone's made a library for it though
1029 2012-08-19 23:40:30 <Eliel> I think the ideal solution is to memoize the more internal hashes and just recompute the rest as needed.
1030 2012-08-19 23:42:03 <Eliel> otherwise you'll need to calculate 2*(2**k) hashes for each update.
1031 2012-08-19 23:42:23 <Eliel> where k is the depth of the tree
1032 2012-08-19 23:42:29 sgornick has joined
1033 2012-08-19 23:42:59 <Eliel> anyway, I better get some sleep. Good night.
1034 2012-08-19 23:45:49 <roconnor> I think it would be a bad idea to put purecoin on github, but I cannot stop anyone from doing so.
1035 2012-08-19 23:45:59 <roconnor> sipa: amiller: I think it would be a bad idea to put purecoin on github, but I cannot stop anyone from doing so.
1036 2012-08-19 23:46:18 <roconnor> which reminds me I need to put an MIT licence on it
1037 2012-08-19 23:46:44 <lianj> roconnor: why bad idea?
1038 2012-08-19 23:47:09 <roconnor> lianj: because it isn't fully compaitble with bitcoin
1039 2012-08-19 23:47:27 <lianj> ah
1040 2012-08-19 23:47:38 <roconnor> and it would be bad if incompatable versions of bitcoin became popular
1041 2012-08-19 23:47:50 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
1042 2012-08-19 23:48:00 <roconnor> granted this is going to happen anyways, so many I shouldn't fret over it
1043 2012-08-19 23:48:27 lunchtime has joined
1044 2012-08-19 23:48:40 <sipa> roconnor: don't worry, it's haskell, it won't be used :)
1045 2012-08-19 23:48:43 <amiller> unless it's a very subtle kind of incompatible, i don't see how someone would be confused into thinking it's compatible if it isn't
1046 2012-08-19 23:48:44 <roconnor> :)
1047 2012-08-19 23:48:45 <lianj> in what sense is it incompatable?
1048 2012-08-19 23:48:49 <lianj> sipa: hihi
1049 2012-08-19 23:49:04 <sipa> "avoid success at all costs"
1050 2012-08-19 23:49:08 <roconnor> lianj: in one of the million subtle ways implementations can be incompataible
1051 2012-08-19 23:49:21 <roconnor> if I knew in which way, I'd fix it
1052 2012-08-19 23:50:04 <roconnor> lianj: one way is that it tramples duplicate coins
1053 2012-08-19 23:50:05 lunchtime is now known as luncht1me
1054 2012-08-19 23:52:00 <Eliel> duplicate unspent txouts are invalid now
1055 2012-08-19 23:52:14 <amiller> i hate to contradict your judgment, but if that's the main thing holding you back - go ahead and put an MIT license on it, and I'll take the heat for unleashing it on the world.
1056 2012-08-19 23:52:22 <roconnor> lianj: I also don't disallow pushing integers larger than 4 bytes
1057 2012-08-19 23:53:04 <roconnor> lianj: and probably other things
1058 2012-08-19 23:53:17 curiositi has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120714012003])
1059 2012-08-19 23:54:34 <roconnor> okay, there should be an MIT licence on it now.
1060 2012-08-19 23:54:59 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
1061 2012-08-19 23:54:59 <roconnor> amiller: I cannot stop you from putting it on github, but I think you should reconsider doing so.
1062 2012-08-19 23:55:21 <roconnor> or at least be aware of the downsides
1063 2012-08-19 23:55:31 BTCTrader has joined
1064 2012-08-19 23:55:41 <amiller> last time, i asked for specific permission to post a particular file, the set of script opcodes
1065 2012-08-19 23:56:00 <amiller> mostly my interest would be in linking to specific parts i think are good/interesting ideas or that i'd use for comparison
1066 2012-08-19 23:56:40 <amiller> so maybe you would prefer if i didn't push the whole thing up there but only the parts i really want to
1067 2012-08-19 23:56:44 <roconnor> pasting bits and pieces is probably quite reasonable. It is helpful to be formal when talking about things.
1068 2012-08-19 23:57:36 <Eliel> you could also express your concerns in a readme file
1069 2012-08-19 23:58:00 <Eliel> github shows the readme, if any, automatically
1070 2012-08-19 23:58:16 <roconnor> maybe that is a good idea