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  41 2012-08-22 01:44:59 <sebicas> What is the best Linux distro & python version for Bitcoind development?
  42 2012-08-22 01:47:33 <weex> sebicas: debian-based is program going to be easier than redhat/centos
  43 2012-08-22 01:47:53 <sebicas> will Ubuntu work?
  44 2012-08-22 01:48:03 <weex> yeah pretty sure
  45 2012-08-22 01:48:22 <weex> i don't think python version matters that much at least for interacting with bitcoind
  46 2012-08-22 01:48:55 <sebicas> I am having a problem with  Boost 1.40+
  47 2012-08-22 01:49:01 <sebicas> sudo apt-get install libboost-all-dev
  48 2012-08-22 01:49:43 <sebicas> Looks like is working now..
  49 2012-08-22 01:49:51 <sebicas> Just updated apt-get
  50 2012-08-22 01:50:07 <gmaxwell> weex: fedora works just fine for bitcoin development, arguably easier, since e.g. you're not forced onto unsupported libdb versions.
  51 2012-08-22 01:50:55 <weex> sebicas: are you working on the bitcoind codebase or building around it?
  52 2012-08-22 01:51:38 <sebicas> Around it..
  53 2012-08-22 01:51:43 <sebicas> I need to make this work.
  54 2012-08-22 01:51:44 <sebicas> https://github.com/tcatm/supybot-BTCMonitor
  55 2012-08-22 01:52:16 <sebicas> Need a plug-in that publish Blocks & Transaction Events to Amazon SNS
  56 2012-08-22 01:52:28 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  57 2012-08-22 01:53:13 <weex> 2 years old?
  58 2012-08-22 01:53:42 <sebicas> Yep.. didn't find a better one..
  59 2012-08-22 01:53:46 <sebicas> Any ideas?
  60 2012-08-22 01:53:48 <weex> you might want to look at pynode since jgarzik is actively developing it https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94645.0
  61 2012-08-22 01:55:20 <sebicas> Does pynode works on their own or with bitcoind?
  62 2012-08-22 01:55:26 <weex> libbitcoin was another thing that might worth looking at http://bitcoinmedia.com/libbitcoin-first-500-blocks/
  63 2012-08-22 01:55:30 <weex> on it's own
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  69 2012-08-22 01:58:36 <sebicas> weex: Does dynode verify Blocks & Transactions in some way?
  70 2012-08-22 01:59:41 <weex> i have no idea
  71 2012-08-22 02:00:28 <weex> looks like it, check out that thread
  72 2012-08-22 02:00:40 <weex> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94645.msg1079802#msg1079802
  73 2012-08-22 02:01:23 EPiSKiNG- has joined
  74 2012-08-22 02:02:44 <lianj> although i dont see it verifies https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#.22block.22_messages
  75 2012-08-22 02:04:50 darksk1ez has joined
  76 2012-08-22 02:06:23 <weex> best thing about it, it has no issues. https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/issues
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  78 2012-08-22 02:06:59 <lianj> weex: oO because its new ;)
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  82 2012-08-22 02:35:51 <jgarzik> lianj: pynode does the vast majority of that list
  83 2012-08-22 02:36:08 <jgarzik> sebicas: pynode works on its own
  84 2012-08-22 02:36:35 <sebicas> but doesn't work to send transactions, correct?
  85 2012-08-22 02:36:42 <jgarzik> sebicas: pynode verifies everything except scripts by default.  verifying scripts is a separate process, testscript.py
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  87 2012-08-22 02:36:55 <jgarzik> sebicas: correct.  pynode does not create or send transactions.
  88 2012-08-22 02:37:18 <jgarzik> it passively watches and verifies block chain information, and serves blockchain data to other nodes
  89 2012-08-22 02:37:22 <sebicas> So I guess I can't have both..
  90 2012-08-22 02:38:07 <sebicas> The problem is that I will need to have both a pynode & bitcoind
  91 2012-08-22 02:38:21 <sebicas> Both will need to download block chain, etc
  92 2012-08-22 02:38:32 <jgarzik> sebicas: yes
  93 2012-08-22 02:38:37 <sebicas> So is like a waste of resources
  94 2012-08-22 02:38:43 <jgarzik> sebicas: though if you have bitcoind, you probably do not need pynode?
  95 2012-08-22 02:39:02 <sebicas> Yes, I am thinking in compile bitcoind myself
  96 2012-08-22 02:39:25 <sebicas> And add some code that will publish the Block & Txs events to Amazon SNS
  97 2012-08-22 02:39:53 <sebicas> It would be great to have kind of plugins for bitcoind to make it easy for add-ons like this
  98 2012-08-22 02:40:25 <jgarzik> sebicas: ah!  well pynode can be run without a blockchain database, if you _disable_ verification
  99 2012-08-22 02:40:48 <jgarzik> sebicas: then you have bitcoind->pynode, and you may use pynode to send notifications when new blocks or tx's occur
 100 2012-08-22 02:41:04 <jgarzik> that's one of pynode's purposes: monitoring the network
 101 2012-08-22 02:41:09 <sebicas> So dynode will use the bitcoind database… right?
 102 2012-08-22 02:41:15 <sebicas> pynode
 103 2012-08-22 02:41:41 <jgarzik> sebicas: of a sort.  if pynode connects to a trusted bitcoind that you run, it does not need to query any database.  it simply trusts its input.
 104 2012-08-22 02:43:07 <sebicas> So basically I said to pynode… only connect to my node, nothing else, listen to events and once you ear something publish it to AmazonSNS
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 109 2012-08-22 02:46:39 <jgarzik> sebicas: yep
 110 2012-08-22 02:47:07 <jgarzik> sebicas: it's more a choice of programming language..  if you are comfortable modifying bitcoind, no need for pynode.  but some might find it easier to write monitoring and glue code in python.
 111 2012-08-22 02:47:44 <jgarzik> sebicas: note that bitcoind runs an executable or script for each block, with -blocknotify
 112 2012-08-22 02:48:01 <sebicas> Yes, but doesn't give me transactions...
 113 2012-08-22 02:48:04 <sebicas> Thx
 114 2012-08-22 02:48:15 <jgarzik> nod
 115 2012-08-22 02:48:47 <sebicas> The good thing about using pynode is that I can upgrade bitcoind and not worrying about my changes..
 116 2012-08-22 02:49:00 <jgarzik> sebicas: transactions are contained within a block, so you get transactions too.  you don't get zero-confirmation live transactions with -blocknotify, no.
 117 2012-08-22 02:49:07 <jgarzik> sebicas: yep
 118 2012-08-22 02:49:15 <sebicas> If I code in inside bitcoind every time there is a new real ease I will have to re-code it to upgrade..
 119 2012-08-22 02:50:22 <jgarzik> sebicas: for something super-simple, you might even look at pynode's early history: https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/tree/99af958516e9af246d35360ca8802c2bfd58c2e3
 120 2012-08-22 02:50:39 <jgarzik> sebicas: e.g. https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/blob/99af958516e9af246d35360ca8802c2bfd58c2e3/node.py
 121 2012-08-22 02:51:24 <jgarzik> sebicas: all one file, just change code near the bottom where message.command=="tx" and message.command=="block"
 122 2012-08-22 02:51:27 <sebicas> Great! Yes nice..
 123 2012-08-22 02:51:40 <sebicas> Will need to add transactions events
 124 2012-08-22 02:51:53 <jgarzik> sebicas: that's message.command=="tx"
 125 2012-08-22 02:52:14 <jgarzik> sebicas: after the tx.is_valid() check
 126 2012-08-22 02:53:33 <sebicas> Great! Thanks what is great!
 127 2012-08-22 02:53:46 <sebicas> Thanks so much jgarzik!
 128 2012-08-22 02:55:28 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 130 2012-08-22 03:09:56 <Luke-Jr> now that CVE-2012-2459 is disclosed… anyone recall which 0.6.1 RC was the real fix? :P
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 134 2012-08-22 03:20:12 <Luke-Jr> someone should probably update http://bitcoin.org/dos
 135 2012-08-22 03:21:16 <Someguy123> Luke-Jr, "latest version: 0.6.2. "
 136 2012-08-22 03:21:19 <gmaxwell> or just change it to a pointer to the CVE page for now.
 137 2012-08-22 03:21:22 <Someguy123> yeah... maybe they should
 138 2012-08-22 03:21:30 <Someguy123> atleast update the latest version
 139 2012-08-22 03:21:35 <gmaxwell> pull requests accepted.
 140 2012-08-22 03:27:21 <forrestv> Luke-Jr, git describe be8651d -> v0.6.1rc2
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 156 2012-08-22 03:54:56 <doublec> Luke-Jr: so eloipool had improvements bsaed on your inside knowledge of CVS-2012-2459 ?
 157 2012-08-22 03:55:21 <doublec> that's a compelling reason for people to be using your pool
 158 2012-08-22 03:55:28 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 159 2012-08-22 03:55:29 <doublec> faster security fixes
 160 2012-08-22 03:55:37 Cablesaurus has joined
 161 2012-08-22 03:55:58 <Luke-Jr> doublec: well, if it was *really* important to patch the pool end, it would have been shared with all poolserver authors I'm sure
 162 2012-08-22 03:57:11 <gmaxwell> I laughted at luke's silly little workaround. I don't think it mattered.
 163 2012-08-22 03:58:00 <gmaxwell> But with all the paranoia about orphan blocks and such, I can't blame anyone from worrying.
 164 2012-08-22 04:02:20 maqr has joined
 165 2012-08-22 04:04:20 <jgarzik> wonder what orphan situation is like these days?
 166 2012-08-22 04:04:29 <jgarzik> anything beyond anecdotal evidence?
 167 2012-08-22 04:05:30 <doublec> I see a few people complain of nodes getting that WARNING message. Are they on old versions?
 168 2012-08-22 04:06:20 <Luke-Jr> doublec: there's an annoying amount of stuck nodes just from disk corruption :/
 169 2012-08-22 04:06:51 <jgarzik> bitcoind should validate a random block every hour ;)
 170 2012-08-22 04:07:02 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I haven't done any analysis of myself in a few weeks, but I hear people are still noticing half-minute validation times
 171 2012-08-22 04:07:36 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: you probably have the skills needed to get block relaying done in realtime, want to give it a shot? :P
 172 2012-08-22 04:07:46 dvide has quit ()
 173 2012-08-22 04:08:06 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: find me some ECDSA hardware and I'll write a driver
 174 2012-08-22 04:08:08 <jgarzik> :)
 175 2012-08-22 04:08:23 <Luke-Jr> haha, that won't do much good unless it's on most nodes tho >_<
 176 2012-08-22 04:09:12 <Luke-Jr> IMO it'd be good enough if nodes relayed blocks in a more torrent-like fashon (ie, not waiting until you're done downloading, before starting to upload)
 177 2012-08-22 04:09:12 <jgarzik> I should write a cnode client, based on pynode :)
 178 2012-08-22 04:09:19 <jgarzik> just a "block router" and nothing else
 179 2012-08-22 04:09:32 * Luke-Jr would be interested to see a Bitcoin-Qt based on pynode, but that's another subject really
 180 2012-08-22 04:09:42 darksk1ez has joined
 181 2012-08-22 04:10:35 <jgarzik> pull reqs accepted...
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 183 2012-08-22 04:15:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: hopefully after this ASIC stuff is over I'll have more time ☺
 184 2012-08-22 04:15:43 olp has joined
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 186 2012-08-22 04:18:40 <jgarzik> ha!  just thought of a fun optimization for the C version of pynode:
 187 2012-08-22 04:18:44 andrew_wmf has joined
 188 2012-08-22 04:18:56 <jgarzik> store blk????.dat data as serialize block messages, not just serialized blocks
 189 2012-08-22 04:19:08 <jgarzik> then you may sendfile(2) the entire message from disk
 190 2012-08-22 04:19:22 <jgarzik> a C router doing that would hum...
 191 2012-08-22 04:20:42 <Luke-Jr> :D
 192 2012-08-22 04:21:02 <jgarzik> rip through pagecache with zero copying, straight to network
 193 2012-08-22 04:21:28 <jgarzik> of course, pynode could do that too, but C makes it easier to do things with minimal buffer copying
 194 2012-08-22 04:22:03 <jgarzik> sipa gmaxwell: ^^  bitcoind could do this
 195 2012-08-22 04:22:26 <jgarzik> incompatible with existing blk????.dat format sadly
 196 2012-08-22 04:23:42 <Luke-Jr> windows even has an equivalent: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms740565(v=vs.85).aspx
 197 2012-08-22 04:24:07 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: couldn't you just send the message header and still use sendfile?
 198 2012-08-22 04:24:09 <jgarzik> of course.  they invented TSO
 199 2012-08-22 04:24:34 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: yes, you send header with MSG_MORE... but there is the annoying checksum at the end
 200 2012-08-22 04:24:42 <jgarzik> it's also more syscalls and context switches
 201 2012-08-22 04:24:48 <Luke-Jr> ah right
 202 2012-08-22 04:25:16 <Luke-Jr> I suppose we could cache block checksums to some degree
 203 2012-08-22 04:25:26 <jgarzik> hmmm
 204 2012-08-22 04:25:45 <jgarzik> I think you could add a checksum trailer without breaking file format compat
 205 2012-08-22 04:26:02 <jgarzik> should get ignored
 206 2012-08-22 04:26:55 <jgarzik> ChainDb: height 195092, block 000000000000050df9f6189625cdd504924d221f6682b7fa507b478487b2cfd6
 207 2012-08-22 04:26:56 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 1, neverseen 1, poolsz 1317
 208 2012-08-22 04:27:02 <jgarzik> hrmph
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 210 2012-08-22 04:28:58 <jgarzik> SIGH
 211 2012-08-22 04:29:03 * jgarzik bangs head on brick wall
 212 2012-08-22 04:29:10 <jgarzik> ppcoin did not change pchMessageStart
 213 2012-08-22 04:29:19 <gmaxwell> yup.
 214 2012-08-22 04:29:22 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yes, I noticed that
 215 2012-08-22 04:29:30 <Luke-Jr> are PPCoin nodes getting banned now? XD
 216 2012-08-22 04:30:04 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 217 2012-08-22 04:30:09 <gmaxwell> Hey, I suggested that the screwyness of testnet was a good reason to actually make things suck less with respect to that. :)
 218 2012-08-22 04:31:46 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 219 2012-08-22 04:32:43 <jgarzik> isn't there a Dummies Guide to Creating An Alt Coin at this point?
 220 2012-08-22 04:32:52 <jgarzik> even the scammers got that detail right
 221 2012-08-22 04:33:28 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 222 2012-08-22 04:33:46 <jgarzik> and my, my.  poold.py seems to be popping up all over, too.
 223 2012-08-22 04:35:58 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 224 2012-08-22 04:37:14 <copumpkin> not very helpful message :( http://snapplr.com/h4yx
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 231 2012-08-22 04:46:09 * jgarzik reads http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/08/inside-the-grum-botnet/ and wonders what is the smallest (source code size) useful encryption system that a botnet could use for secure communications.  anything smaller than AES?
 232 2012-08-22 04:46:25 agricocb has joined
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 234 2012-08-22 04:47:17 <jgarzik> I always have imagined working on an autonomous agent that was composed of many "cells" -- each a program running on a host -- that communicated together to form a narrow AI hive mind
 235 2012-08-22 04:47:38 agricocb has joined
 236 2012-08-22 04:49:08 * jgarzik looked at Parrot (parrot.org) as a candidate for such an agent.  A simple VM, which can download crypto-signed updates of its "brain" / "DNA" and update itself, possibly JIT'ing along the way
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 238 2012-08-22 04:49:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hey, on newer processeors AES is really small! :)
 239 2012-08-22 04:49:30 <jgarzik> hehehe
 240 2012-08-22 04:50:08 <gmaxwell> "You're telling me that ... the phonenumber I dialed ... overflowed a buffer and encrypted my system and is now holding it for randsom????"
 241 2012-08-22 04:50:15 MC-Eeepc has joined
 242 2012-08-22 04:51:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: truly antonomous would be interesting
 243 2012-08-22 04:51:28 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: Eligius's final DDoS was some pretty complicated botnet stuff tho
 244 2012-08-22 04:51:42 <Luke-Jr> I don't think the FBI ended up getting anywhere with it :/
 245 2012-08-22 04:51:45 <doublec> jgarzik: how about wasp list?
 246 2012-08-22 04:51:50 <doublec> s/list/lisp/
 247 2012-08-22 04:51:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: You mean the ... attack of the flying HP printers? :)
 248 2012-08-22 04:52:02 <jgarzik> I despise lisp with a passion ;p
 249 2012-08-22 04:52:12 <doublec> https://sites.google.com/site/waspvm/
 250 2012-08-22 04:52:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, but those were just masking the real bots :P
 251 2012-08-22 04:52:57 <doublec> it was used to build mosref. A penetration testing framework where you have a master console that sends out drones to hosts
 252 2012-08-22 04:53:03 <doublec> and sends compiled lisp code to the drones
 253 2012-08-22 04:53:19 <doublec> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2009/11/28/using-wasp-lisp-secure-remote-injection.html
 254 2012-08-22 04:53:50 <doublec> drones talk to the console via an encrypted channel using the salsa20 stream cipher
 255 2012-08-22 04:54:42 * jgarzik wonders... does TEA live up to its acronym?  :)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Encryption_Algorithm
 256 2012-08-22 04:54:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ask msft?
 257 2012-08-22 04:55:01 <gmaxwell> (asn't TEA what got the first gen xboxes compromised?
 258 2012-08-22 04:55:02 <gmaxwell> )
 259 2012-08-22 04:55:12 <jgarzik> according to WP yes :)
 260 2012-08-22 04:56:08 <jgarzik> but there are inevitable fixes and extensions
 261 2012-08-22 04:59:03 <jgarzik> ChainDb: height 195096, block 00000000000007a142b00794b462423707e94137c9232b31967445dded82616d
 262 2012-08-22 04:59:03 <jgarzik> MemPool: blk.vtx.sz 32, neverseen 32, poolsz 665
 263 2012-08-22 04:59:41 <Diablo-D3> vat is that
 264 2012-08-22 05:00:26 <jgarzik> a miner not contributing to the network
 265 2012-08-22 05:00:57 <Diablo-D3> vhy not?
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 268 2012-08-22 05:01:14 <Diablo-D3> and vhy am I talking in such a ridiculous german accent
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 285 2012-08-22 05:31:51 <dust-otc> blockchain.info having problems?
 286 2012-08-22 05:32:10 <dust-otc> last block 1hr 30min ago?
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 288 2012-08-22 05:33:35 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,tslb
 289 2012-08-22 05:33:35 <gribble> Time since last block: 30 seconds
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 291 2012-08-22 05:33:48 <gmaxwell> "Haha"
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 300 2012-08-22 05:46:35 <Lilliana> Hey. I'm very interested in bitcoin development and curious, partly to learn what it's all about and what it means. And mostly the actual code that goes into it.
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 303 2012-08-22 05:47:01 <Lilliana> So question #1 what is the purpose behind bitcoin and what are bitcoins. I have a friend who's always going on about it but he leaves details out and doesn't entirely seem to know what it is/about.
 304 2012-08-22 05:47:13 <Lilliana> Question #2 What language is it being developed in, depending on my skills.
 305 2012-08-22 05:47:16 <Lilliana> I can offer some help.
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 314 2012-08-22 05:51:17 <gjs278> Lilliana it's c++ and it's for sending money to people through computers and avoiding central authorities
 315 2012-08-22 05:51:48 <Lilliana> I just watched the video.
 316 2012-08-22 05:51:51 meLon has joined
 317 2012-08-22 05:52:04 <midnightmagic> TD[gone]: hey, your bitcoin-leveldb managed to corrupt itself (possibly with the host machine's help) and can no longer read the blockindex.
 318 2012-08-22 05:52:41 <Lilliana> Ok, I'm curious about one thing. How does the bitcoin mining work and how is the limit set? I guess I shouldn't be asking this here. How is the market value exchange of bitcoins determined? As comparable to any other currency?
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 323 2012-08-22 05:54:10 <midnightmagic> Lilliana: what limit?
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 325 2012-08-22 05:56:22 <Lilliana> In the video it said something about limiting how many bitcoins could be produced or something, to balance bitcoin value.
 326 2012-08-22 05:59:12 <jgarzik> Lilliana: this is offtopic for #bitcoin-dev.  try #bitcoin...  To answer your question, the market value is determined by ... the market :)  There is a free exchange at all times between buyers and sellers.
 327 2012-08-22 05:59:41 <jgarzik> Lilliana: also https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ
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 332 2012-08-22 06:03:33 <Lilliana> Alright here's a better question. How can I help with development of the bit coin system?
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 343 2012-08-22 06:08:11 <gjs278> first you must understand it
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 345 2012-08-22 06:08:19 <gjs278> then you have to think of a feature you want that doesnt exist
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 348 2012-08-22 06:19:04 <Lilliana> Right now i'm reading the paper. Some interesting math, not all of it I understand.
 349 2012-08-22 06:19:37 <gmaxwell> 23:02 < gjs278> then you have to think of a feature you want that doesnt exist
 350 2012-08-22 06:19:59 <gmaxwell> actually, then you must use it a bunch and find all the bugs in the many features we already have! :)
 351 2012-08-22 06:19:59 <Lilliana> I can see though that the assumed cpu power required to over ride or pull the wool over the rest of the network's eyes , is so great the odds are basically none for faults.
 352 2012-08-22 06:20:22 <gjs278> I only have one successful pull request, it was for a new feature, but yes, you could fix the existing ones
 353 2012-08-22 06:20:26 <Lilliana> I also like how the blocks are encrypted so that it actually takes alot of cpu work to re-work the hashes.
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 357 2012-08-22 06:23:31 <Lilliana> It's interesting. =p =p
 358 2012-08-22 06:23:41 <Lilliana> I just finished reading the paper.
 359 2012-08-22 06:32:08 <amiller> gmaxwell, what would it take to 'merge mine' on two forks while also reducing your payout proportionally?
 360 2012-08-22 06:32:32 <amiller> for example, if your threshold calculation is based on the sum of the difficulties
 361 2012-08-22 06:32:34 <gmaxwell> A coin that could mergemine with itself.
 362 2012-08-22 06:32:52 <amiller> that way you would be able to split your bet across two forks if you aren't sure what will be chosen
 363 2012-08-22 06:33:39 <gmaxwell> e.g. if it accepted two block types, a mergmined block and a direct block.  You'd direct mine one, mergemine the other(s). but you might be interested in a post I _Just_ made, where I basically argue against that kind of dillution.
 364 2012-08-22 06:33:39 <amiller> something that wins in one fork would need to be mutually exclusive to a winner in the other fork
 365 2012-08-22 06:33:49 <gmaxwell> amiller: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102355
 366 2012-08-22 06:33:52 <amiller> er, yeah, i meant to reference that post
 367 2012-08-22 06:33:55 <gmaxwell> ah hah.
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 369 2012-08-22 06:34:58 <amiller> its a waste of your effort not to validate both of them
 370 2012-08-22 06:36:23 <gmaxwell> a waste, but getting good convergence requires that you're not validating everything.  At a minimum a viable scheme has to make it cost you something to spread yourself out. E.g. half your reward.
 371 2012-08-22 06:36:44 <amiller> what if you validate two chains in parallel
 372 2012-08-22 06:36:45 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 373 2012-08-22 06:36:49 <amiller> and bet on them in proportion to how far along in your validation
 374 2012-08-22 06:37:01 <amiller> work first
 375 2012-08-22 06:37:53 <amiller> only strong proof of work could make you waste time validating a transaction, and by 66% assumption there isn't a longer chain than _both_ the ones you're validating
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 378 2012-08-22 06:42:37 <amiller> someone who gets a block in one of the chains is effectively documenting the existence of the other fork
 379 2012-08-22 06:43:10 <Lilliana> kay guys this computational theory talk is really making me excited. I love this type of stuff.
 380 2012-08-22 06:51:20 <gmaxwell> amiller: I do generally like the ideas where you are incentivized to expose people to forks... simply because it aligns a consensus-incentive with the consensus-requirement of information availablity.
 381 2012-08-22 06:51:35 <gmaxwell> amiller: but I do not like the bandwidth consequences.
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 383 2012-08-22 06:52:47 <amiller> can you isolate what bandwidth consequences we'd run into?
 384 2012-08-22 06:53:12 <amiller> i'm trying to split the worry into two parts, transaction validation and work validation at least
 385 2012-08-22 06:53:26 <amiller> the worst case with transaction validation is that you might get stuck with missing data
 386 2012-08-22 06:54:43 <amiller> you might be looking at a fork that you cannot make progress in validating
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 388 2012-08-22 06:55:04 <gmaxwell> amiller: right if you only passed some header, then you're not really making the fork available to me.
 389 2012-08-22 06:55:38 <gmaxwell> So that benefit I mentioned doesn't exist. someone who wants to isolate you and feed you a shorter chain could refuse to let you validate the longer one but still benefit from it.
 390 2012-08-22 06:56:51 <amiller> if he can't isolate you forever then you'll eventually switch, and you'll have put at most half of your power on an invalid chain
 391 2012-08-22 06:57:07 <amiller> someone who isolates you can't trick you into double-working
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 393 2012-08-22 06:57:46 <amiller> he can't get you to put all of your mining in one invalid chain as long as you're aware of the second's headers
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 402 2012-08-22 07:04:50 <amiller> eventually we're going to want to have users demand a minimum difficulty in order for the fees to be valid, and this sort of balancing act is going to what keeps it stable
 403 2012-08-22 07:06:07 <amiller> if the fees are cheap to win, then you'll have more miners splitting their work on forks, and your transactions risk getting forked
 404 2012-08-22 07:06:52 <amiller> by increasing your minimum-difficulty demand for your fees, when you get included in a block it's less likely you'll be forked
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 480 2012-08-22 10:03:13 <sipa> jgarzik: well, it's still possible to use sendfile to send the actual block data after sending some headers the normal way, no?
 481 2012-08-22 10:04:20 <sipa> and isn't the checksum in front instead of at the end?
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 499 2012-08-22 11:00:24 <denisx> [7]: biste schon fertig mit ppcoin?
 500 2012-08-22 11:00:36 <denisx> ops, fc
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 513 2012-08-22 12:00:20 <sipa> wow, we have already >600 commits since v0.6.0 (excluding merges)
 514 2012-08-22 12:00:32 <sipa> between v0.5.0 and v0.6.0 there were 292
 515 2012-08-22 12:01:01 <sipa> between v0.4.0 and v0.5.0 there were 454
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 517 2012-08-22 12:04:50 <wumpus> wow
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 519 2012-08-22 12:06:06 <sipa> between v0.3.19 (+- when gavin took over) and v0.4.0, there were 536
 520 2012-08-22 12:07:15 <sipa> maybe size of diffs is a more accurate metric
 521 2012-08-22 12:07:56 danbri has joined
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 523 2012-08-22 12:10:08 <JyZyXEL> in bitcoin wiki it says nonce is only a 32-bit field, wouldn't that be much too fast to go trough? and what if none of those values produces a hash that is acceptable?
 524 2012-08-22 12:10:43 <sipa> JyZyXEL: then you ask for more work
 525 2012-08-22 12:10:49 <JyZyXEL> and in blockexplorer.com for nonce the description says "When generating, Bitcoin starts this number at 1 and increments for each hash attempt.", wouldn't that mean the fastest hasher always wins
 526 2012-08-22 12:10:52 <sipa> and search the nonce for another block
 527 2012-08-22 12:11:07 <sipa> no, because every miner searches a different range
 528 2012-08-22 12:11:20 <sipa> they are just not working on the same block
 529 2012-08-22 12:11:39 mrtn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 530 2012-08-22 12:14:49 <JyZyXEL> so you keep adding transactions to the block your working on?
 531 2012-08-22 12:15:32 <sipa> no, but you can change the coinbase transaction
 532 2012-08-22 12:15:51 <sipa> 1) by changing who to pay to (which differs already for every miner)
 533 2012-08-22 12:16:09 <sipa> 2) by changing the coinbase input (up to 100 bytes which are otherwise completely ignored)
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 535 2012-08-22 12:18:00 <JyZyXEL> what controls then how many transactions there are in the block?
 536 2012-08-22 12:19:30 <sipa> the miner
 537 2012-08-22 12:21:36 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 538 2012-08-22 12:22:06 <t7> and the network wont accept it?
 539 2012-08-22 12:22:10 setkeh has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 540 2012-08-22 12:22:14 <t7> if its over 1 meg or whatever
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 543 2012-08-22 12:29:41 <sipa> wumpus: apart from the the few very recent commits, anything you think is still wanted/viable for 0.7.0rc1?
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 545 2012-08-22 12:31:22 <sipa> i'd say: 1700, 1699, 1698, 1694, 1672, 1670, 1409
 546 2012-08-22 12:32:00 <wumpus> let me go over the list
 547 2012-08-22 12:32:28 <JyZyXEL> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
 548 2012-08-22 12:32:44 <sipa> t7: they still have to produce *valid* blocks of course
 549 2012-08-22 12:32:50 <JyZyXEL> "extraNonce"
 550 2012-08-22 12:33:00 <sipa> JyZyXEL: that's what i called coinbase input before
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 552 2012-08-22 12:33:24 <JyZyXEL> the table doesn't even list those as belonging in the block header
 553 2012-08-22 12:33:30 <sipa> they don't
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 555 2012-08-22 12:33:49 <t7> its time for bitcoin 2.0
 556 2012-08-22 12:33:59 <t7> with simpler protocol
 557 2012-08-22 12:34:00 <sipa> the coinbase input is part of the coinbase (=the first transaction in a block), which only influences the block header indirectly via the merkle root of the transaction list
 558 2012-08-22 12:34:18 <t7> written in coq
 559 2012-08-22 12:34:22 <sipa> t7: be my guest
 560 2012-08-22 12:34:30 <wumpus> sipa: I agree on those
 561 2012-08-22 12:34:40 <JyZyXEL> oh i see
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 563 2012-08-22 12:35:08 <wumpus> yes, let's make a client in yet another programming language, that will teach them!
 564 2012-08-22 12:35:29 <t7> maybe seeded with the original blockchain.... but still everyone would have to move at once, and i don't think everyone will
 565 2012-08-22 12:35:40 bitzero has joined
 566 2012-08-22 12:35:55 <wumpus> let's first try to make everyone on earth jump at once
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 569 2012-08-22 12:37:55 <t7> maybe just another *coin then :(
 570 2012-08-22 12:38:32 <sipa> there are many potential improvements that have been discovered since its creation, which would improve bitcoin in theory
 571 2012-08-22 12:38:38 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 572 2012-08-22 12:38:44 <sipa> but few of them solve an actual problem for now
 573 2012-08-22 12:38:52 <JyZyXEL> what does it mean when it says the Merkle root is updated when "a transaction is accepted"
 574 2012-08-22 12:39:08 <sipa> JyZyXEL: you understand the merkle tree?
 575 2012-08-22 12:39:11 <JyZyXEL> yeah
 576 2012-08-22 12:39:17 <wumpus> yes, most is busywork
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 579 2012-08-22 12:39:59 <sipa> JyZyXEL: so everytime a new transaction is accepted to the memory pool, new blocks constructed are based on the modified merkle root of the accepted transactions
 580 2012-08-22 12:40:13 <sipa> hi there gavin; i just said to wumpus:
 581 2012-08-22 12:40:20 <sipa> wumpus: apart from the the few very recent commits, anything you think is still wanted/viable for 0.7.0rc1?
 582 2012-08-22 12:40:24 <sipa> i'd say: 1700, 1699, 1698, 1694, 1672, 1670, 1409
 583 2012-08-22 12:40:35 <JyZyXEL> who accepts these new transactions, based on what and where do they come from?
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 585 2012-08-22 12:42:01 <wumpus> I also don't think simplifying the protocol is a goal in itself, though it'd be nice to not let it become even more byzantine
 586 2012-08-22 12:42:20 <sipa> JyZyXEL: anyone accepts transactions to their memory pool, which 1) do not conflict with the blockchain 2) do not conflict with what is already in their mempool
 587 2012-08-22 12:42:30 <sipa> JyZyXEL: miners use the mempool to create blocks from
 588 2012-08-22 12:42:41 <sipa> others use it as a list of transactions with 0 confirmations
 589 2012-08-22 12:42:54 <sipa> oh, 3) are otherwise valid
 590 2012-08-22 12:43:23 <JyZyXEL> well im guessing these transactions just somehow spread in the network?
 591 2012-08-22 12:43:26 <sipa> yes
 592 2012-08-22 12:43:32 <sipa> it's a gossip network
 593 2012-08-22 12:43:40 <sipa> nodes tell eachother what they know
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 595 2012-08-22 12:48:51 <JyZyXEL> ok so solo mining seems pretty straight forward then
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 597 2012-08-22 12:50:05 <gavinandresen> we need to do something nice for BlueMatt... I'm LOVING BitcoinPullTester automatic pull testing!
 598 2012-08-22 12:50:20 * sipa too
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 603 2012-08-22 13:02:05 <wumpus> yes it's very useful
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 630 2012-08-22 13:37:35 <yesyesja> can anybody help me with bit-pay?
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 643 2012-08-22 14:18:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm happy to see so many people misreading your patch; proves people are actually reading all these things (if not all that carefully)
 644 2012-08-22 14:18:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed!
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 652 2012-08-22 14:21:46 <roconnor> sipa: *ping*
 653 2012-08-22 14:21:52 <sipa> roconnor: yes?
 654 2012-08-22 14:22:49 <roconnor> sipa: since duplicate transactions are disallowed, don't we need a TXO database rather than an UTXO database?  If you don't keep (some information) about spent transactions you won't know if there is a duplicate or not.
 655 2012-08-22 14:24:07 <sipa> roconnor: BIP30 explicitly allows a duplicate transaction if the original one was fully spent already
 656 2012-08-22 14:24:14 <roconnor> ah
 657 2012-08-22 14:24:20 <sipa> (specifically in order not to prevent pruning in the future)
 658 2012-08-22 14:24:25 <roconnor> right
 659 2012-08-22 14:24:26 <roconnor> thanks
 660 2012-08-22 14:25:04 <sipa> we're now adding a new rule even, to include the height in coinbases
 661 2012-08-22 14:25:14 <sipa> which would guarantee full uniqueness
 662 2012-08-22 14:25:23 <roconnor> good
 663 2012-08-22 14:25:31 <roconnor> it will be useful for other things too I think
 664 2012-08-22 14:25:52 <sipa> the uniqueness is good, but i'm not sure it's actually useful
 665 2012-08-22 14:28:07 <gmaxwell> well, it's useful in that it avoids making things that think txid is unique vulnerable to varrious attacks!
 666 2012-08-22 14:28:08 <sipa> (in my implementation of the UTXO set, i even keep heights of each tx(output) separately)
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 670 2012-08-22 14:39:41 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I didn't mean to imply we shouldn't do the mlock improvemens; good work. I was just pouting about the fact that it isn't nearly enough.
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 672 2012-08-22 14:41:12 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I think we can protect jsonrpc (except for the network path, maybe over SSL it could be fully protected).. qt, however, will become difficult, I don't know of any "secure input" initiatives
 673 2012-08-22 14:42:14 <gmaxwell> wumpus: for -qt the possibility there would be for fork+exec a input getting process and mlockall the thing. Then have it feed the key to json rpc, assuming thats a solved problem.
 674 2012-08-22 14:42:25 <gmaxwell> Though making jsonrpc a solved problem sounds hard to me.
 675 2012-08-22 14:42:59 <wumpus> I wonder what will be the impact of only using securestring in jsonrpc :-)
 676 2012-08-22 14:43:06 <gmaxwell> ugh.
 677 2012-08-22 14:43:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think to be remotely viable we'd have to go back to your option (1); though perhaps not boost pool.. but at least some other external malloc.
 678 2012-08-22 14:43:48 <wumpus> or maybe add an additional layer of encryption on the password as it goes through jsonrpc
 679 2012-08-22 14:43:55 <gmaxwell> mlock is _slow slow slow_ on some systems.
 680 2012-08-22 14:45:00 <gmaxwell> I have some Linux/amd64 system were it takes multiple milliseconds (presumably due to TLB flushes)
 681 2012-08-22 14:45:18 <gavinandresen> instead of spending lots of time trying to make the single-compromised-machine case secure, I'd rather we spent lots of time getting a multi-device solution running
 682 2012-08-22 14:45:20 <wumpus> well at least my patch reduces the number of mlock/munlock calls a lot
 683 2012-08-22 14:45:46 <wumpus> but yeah using it for all the string handling in jsonrpc would be a joke
 684 2012-08-22 14:46:28 <wumpus> jsonrpc performance is already a pain point for some
 685 2012-08-22 14:46:33 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: what, you're not expecting grandma to do raw transaction api mediated offline wallets as soon as 0.7 is out??  ( my first draft of a walkthrough: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt )
 686 2012-08-22 14:47:15 <gavinandresen> I saw the walkthrough, nice!
 687 2012-08-22 14:47:31 <gmaxwell> But fair point. Further hardening there is less important than other things we could do, like offline wallets, multisign devices, wallet process seperation, paper encryption backups, etc.
 688 2012-08-22 14:47:52 <gavinandresen> much, much, much less important IMHO
 689 2012-08-22 14:48:38 <gavinandresen> keyloggers are a much bigger worry for me than "I found your private key in swap space on that hard disk you threw away..."
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 691 2012-08-22 14:49:10 <gmaxwell> (in fact with wallet process seperation... it might even by viable to mlock the whole wallet process, if its memory usage can be gotten low enough, so maybe an improvement here comes almost for free later)
 692 2012-08-22 14:49:30 <gavinandresen> or we could just tell people to run with whole-disk encryption.
 693 2012-08-22 14:49:45 <gmaxwell> Good advice generally.
 694 2012-08-22 14:50:18 <gmaxwell> (I once got a HDD RMA replaced that came back with only the first few sectors zeroed, the rest had someone elses data on it)
 695 2012-08-22 14:50:35 <gmaxwell> (You can't erase a failed disk, so I encrypt all my disks now)
 696 2012-08-22 14:50:50 <wumpus> at least mlock/munlock is now working as it was supposed to, I'll leave it at there, next is getting that fstack-protector-all working on mingw
 697 2012-08-22 14:51:24 <wumpus> yes, good point
 698 2012-08-22 14:51:35 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Did you see that post to pidgin-otr by Jacob that I linked to?
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 700 2012-08-22 14:51:53 <gavinandresen> I worked out my Mac build environment issues, so am ready to build 0.7rc1 whenever we colletively decide it is good enough.
 701 2012-08-22 14:52:36 <gavinandresen> (hmmm, before 0.7 final we should get a signing certificate from Apple...)
 702 2012-08-22 14:53:46 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, he got it to work with even more hardening options... I'm trying with a newer version of mingw, I'm almost sure that will solve the problem
 703 2012-08-22 14:54:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think I mentioned before, but I had no issues building C stuff with SSP on mingw; well no issues beyond the need to explicitly link libssp; but this was on quite new mingw.
 704 2012-08-22 14:55:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: heh, thanks
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 706 2012-08-22 14:55:31 <gmaxwell> At some point we do need to advance our build enviroment, e.g. we'll get things like LTO in new GCC will make smaller and faster binaries; mingw thats less buggy, etc.
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 708 2012-08-22 14:56:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: Ive been xcompiling on my system using mingw-w64 (a significantly newer version), we could probably reasonable switch to that (though I have yet to test it with ssp stuff)
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 711 2012-08-22 14:58:33 <wumpus> yes I'm also using mingw-w64 (in 32 bit mode) now
 712 2012-08-22 14:58:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what GCC version is that?
 713 2012-08-22 14:59:01 <wumpus> 4.7
 714 2012-08-22 14:59:06 <BlueMatt> on my system, 4.6.3
 715 2012-08-22 14:59:28 <wumpus> oh ,right
 716 2012-08-22 14:59:40 <BlueMatt> same on precise, but its probably newer in experimental
 717 2012-08-22 14:59:49 <gmaxwell> okay, well 4.6 and later is IIRC where LTO is actually useful.
 718 2012-08-22 15:01:14 <BlueMatt> but, yea, lto is hugely useful for bitcoin
 719 2012-08-22 15:01:30 <BlueMatt> (at least in my brief tests)
 720 2012-08-22 15:02:10 <gmaxwell> (though, ... I bet I can't actually compile bitcoin with LTO on my laptop; at least not without going deep into swap)
 721 2012-08-22 15:02:47 <BlueMatt> works fine here with 8g
 722 2012-08-22 15:02:53 <BlueMatt> (and no swap)
 723 2012-08-22 15:03:08 <sipa> gmaxwell, gavinandresen, wumpus, BlueMatt: what do you guys think about removing the random-number-of-stack frames created for new threads?
 724 2012-08-22 15:03:18 <sipa> i believe there was evidence that GCC even optimized that away
 725 2012-08-22 15:03:25 <wumpus> I really dispise that code
 726 2012-08-22 15:03:55 <sipa> in combination with hardening flags, i doubt it adds anything at all
 727 2012-08-22 15:03:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: dunno, gdb has always seemed to indicate that it works
 728 2012-08-22 15:04:03 <gmaxwell> 'meh'. I'd rather fix it than remove it if it's being optimized away.  Is it really a nussance?  (well, other than we now miss it on some threads...)
 729 2012-08-22 15:04:10 <gavinandresen> I wrote a replacement a while ago as part of a "use boost::thread" branch that I never finished....
 730 2012-08-22 15:04:30 <wumpus> I somehow remember the code wasn't even thread safe
 731 2012-08-22 15:04:49 <gavinandresen> another not-a-high-priority-to-fix, I think
 732 2012-08-22 15:04:51 <sipa> wumpus: indeed, i remember that too, though i forget the details
 733 2012-08-22 15:04:58 <sipa> well, it's trivial to remove :)
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 736 2012-08-22 15:06:29 <gavinandresen> I'd vote to keep it.  Doesn't hurt anything, might help.
 737 2012-08-22 15:07:19 <wumpus> sipa: btw, do you really need to use a cryptologically secure random number generator in addrman? it was using a lot of CPU time to choose the same node every time here :-)
 738 2012-08-22 15:07:25 <gavinandresen> (no reason for every new use of threads to use it, though)
 739 2012-08-22 15:07:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's certantly less important when coupled with the other hardening; when it actually works; though it doesn't today one windows.
 740 2012-08-22 15:07:43 <gmaxwell> s/one/on
 741 2012-08-22 15:08:25 <sipa> wumpus: for picking addresses to connect to, it doesn't matter
 742 2012-08-22 15:09:28 <wumpus> maybe the looping patch fixes that, though, haven't tried yet
 743 2012-08-22 15:09:58 <wumpus> but GetRand is really, really slow
 744 2012-08-22 15:10:20 <sipa> yeah, maybe we need a GetRand and GetRandSecure
 745 2012-08-22 15:11:24 <gmaxwell> I think there are relatively few non-secure rand uses in bitcoin, at least if we're being fairly paranoid.
 746 2012-08-22 15:12:02 <gmaxwell> (though yea, peer selection ... but then again peer selection should consume fairly little random data)
 747 2012-08-22 15:12:38 <wumpus> maybe call them GetRand and GetRandInsecure 
 748 2012-08-22 15:13:02 <wumpus> :p
 749 2012-08-22 15:13:22 <wumpus> also a plain old rand() is used in ApproximateBestSubset in wallet.cpp
 750 2012-08-22 15:14:17 <wumpus> that one uses a lot of random data and doesn't need to be secure
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 752 2012-08-22 15:18:10 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: darn, we never made the non-canonical signatures non-standard? I thought that got done a while ago.
 753 2012-08-22 15:20:04 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: never implemented.  I think I've got a piece of paper on my desk somewhere with the openssl calls to do encode(decode()) to check for canonical-ity
 754 2012-08-22 15:21:05 <gmaxwell> though encode(decode()) doesn't save us from "openssl is exploitable".
 755 2012-08-22 15:21:37 <sipa> i'd rather have a very well-defined rule for which byte sequences are valid as signatures and pubkeys
 756 2012-08-22 15:21:46 <sipa> that doesn't depend on an OpenSSL call
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 758 2012-08-22 15:22:23 <gavinandresen> Are DER-encoded signatures always fixed length?
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 760 2012-08-22 15:22:41 <gmaxwell> These things are not mutually exclusive. E.g. it could do both a simple sanity check as well as the encode(decode())
 761 2012-08-22 15:22:51 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: i dont believe so
 762 2012-08-22 15:23:07 <sipa> gavinandresen: no, but someone in that thread describes the exact format
 763 2012-08-22 15:23:14 <BlueMatt> (at least due to the negative-as-positive bug)
 764 2012-08-22 15:23:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well, we should make those non-standard too.
 765 2012-08-22 15:23:41 <BlueMatt> absolutely
 766 2012-08-22 15:24:25 <gavinandresen> this is why I haven't implemented it yet, I haven't had time to get the nitty-gritty details of exactly what's in a signature....
 767 2012-08-22 15:24:51 <sipa> also, prevent extra bytes at the end (or before the sighashtype byte in signatures)
 768 2012-08-22 15:25:10 <sipa> not allowing zeroes in front of r and s in signatures
 769 2012-08-22 15:25:22 <sipa> hybrid pubkey encodings
 770 2012-08-22 15:25:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: unless [0] & 0x80
 771 2012-08-22 15:25:38 <gavinandresen> encode(decode()) would catch all that, right?  Not a negative r or s (can they be negative?)
 772 2012-08-22 15:25:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: right
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 774 2012-08-22 15:25:50 <sipa> whatever type pubkey encodings openssl invents in the future
 775 2012-08-22 15:25:58 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: dunno about negative, depends on openssl's encodings in biginteger
 776 2012-08-22 15:28:53 <gavinandresen> I'm headed to NYC soon for the big meetup tonight.  sipa, any chance you can take a crack at an IsCanonicalSignature() function?
 777 2012-08-22 15:29:50 <sipa> i'll see what i can do
 778 2012-08-22 15:30:34 <gavinandresen> A  CScript.IsCanonical() would be nifty, too (check for things like using OP_PUSHDATA1 to push a small constant)
 779 2012-08-22 15:31:58 <sipa> that feels wrong
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 781 2012-08-22 15:32:13 <sipa> ideally, scripts are either valid or invalid with nothing in between
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 783 2012-08-22 15:32:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: IsStandard has to come first...by a lot
 784 2012-08-22 15:32:42 <sipa> we have isstandard now as a countermeasure, but i hope we don't need that forever
 785 2012-08-22 15:33:18 <sipa> an iscanonical does fit within the template-matching stuff, were it can return "this is a standard template, but there is something weird with it"
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 787 2012-08-22 15:35:48 <gavinandresen> I'm still worried about changing transaction ids by tweaking scriptSigs before relaying
 788 2012-08-22 15:35:57 <gavinandresen> ... so I'd like to make that harder to do.
 789 2012-08-22 15:36:18 <BlueMatt> meh, wallets should be aware of the issue
 790 2012-08-22 15:36:33 <jgarzik> sipa: (1) yep, you're right, message checksum is at the front.   (2) yes, you send the message header with MSG_MORE, to tell the kernel to _not_ flush the header out of the buffer.  then you use sendfile(2).
 791 2012-08-22 15:36:44 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 0.7 rc1 today?
 792 2012-08-22 15:36:47 <gavinandresen> it just 'feels' like the kind of thing that could be leveraged with something else into an attack.
 793 2012-08-22 15:36:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: i think it's quite important to fix, maybe not for now
 794 2012-08-22 15:37:18 <sipa> but any scheme that relies on sending signed messages directly to a receiver would easily break if people can do this
 795 2012-08-22 15:37:19 <BlueMatt> eventually...sure, but its not excruciatingly high priority
 796 2012-08-22 15:37:21 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I won't have time to spin mac binaries before I head out today (but I'll be back tomorrow)
 797 2012-08-22 15:37:40 <sipa> s/signed messages/signed transactions/
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 801 2012-08-22 15:42:01 <eb3fu> can a script force an input's script to be the same or access it somehow to compare
 802 2012-08-22 15:42:18 <eb3fu> through any tricky mechanism?
 803 2012-08-22 15:42:24 <BlueMatt> not directly
 804 2012-08-22 15:42:27 <sipa> it can only access the stack which is left by the input script
 805 2012-08-22 15:42:59 <BlueMatt> (well, ignoring p2sh)
 806 2012-08-22 15:43:14 <eb3fu> is there any technical reason why a script shouldn't be able to access the input script
 807 2012-08-22 15:43:48 <eb3fu> i was thinking it would be useful for creating a blockchain based security which could be split and exchanged, if you received it you would know that all of the previous inputs were the same, and that they were all derived from one transaction
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 810 2012-08-22 15:49:06 <sipa> how about this: we add a boolen flag to EvalScript "fStrictEncodings", which, if true, does not accept non-canonical signatures or public keys
 811 2012-08-22 15:50:16 <sipa> which is for now only enabled for the memory pool
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 814 2012-08-22 15:51:18 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK
 815 2012-08-22 15:51:44 <sipa> you need a bit more for also checking send-to-pubkey outputs, but that's it
 816 2012-08-22 15:51:52 <sipa> oh, and maybe multisig things
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 826 2012-08-22 16:08:05 <CodeLion> Hey I asked this question yesterday but forgot to bookmark the link I was given. Where can I learn about the non-network bitcoin functions such as generating an address? And also where can I learn about the network related ones, such as sending and recieving coins? I ask it as 2 questions because either will be good to get me starte while I await the next
 827 2012-08-22 16:09:03 <BlueMatt> en.bitcoin.it
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 830 2012-08-22 16:12:02 <CodeLion> BlueMatt ^_^ I know, could you supply the more specific page please? My disorder makes it difficult to find stuff. Especially when I might have to crawl 3 or 4 pages before I find the right one....
 831 2012-08-22 16:12:41 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC) <-- local api
 832 2012-08-22 16:13:16 <BlueMatt> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification <-- p2p net spec
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 834 2012-08-22 16:17:32 <CodeLion> Thanks bluematt
 835 2012-08-22 16:17:44 <CodeLion> Let me look through those and see if they cover everything
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 837 2012-08-22 16:18:33 <CodeLion> JSON eh? w00t that should be easy
 838 2012-08-22 16:19:25 <CodeLion> Wait that looks like interacting with a local server? Can anyone clarify?
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 842 2012-08-22 16:21:31 <lianj> CodeLion: yes
 843 2012-08-22 16:23:07 <CodeLion> Lianj: hmm. I'm trying to write a program in python, at the moment I am implementing a function to generate a new bitcoin privatekey/address pair.
 844 2012-08-22 16:23:19 <CodeLion> I would assume you don't need networking for that, right?
 845 2012-08-22 16:23:45 <CodeLion> Or does there have to be an instance of this "server" mentioned running on wherever you are running the python?
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 848 2012-08-22 16:24:14 <lianj> right, you can just use some pure python lib that does it already
 849 2012-08-22 16:26:08 <CodeLion> hm
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 851 2012-08-22 16:26:17 <CodeLion> There isn't a wiki page about it?
 852 2012-08-22 16:26:28 <CodeLion> I was going to write it myself, thats half the fun
 853 2012-08-22 16:27:28 <lianj> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
 854 2012-08-22 16:27:32 <lianj> train your google-fu ;)
 855 2012-08-22 16:28:44 <CodeLion> Lianj: I try, but I quickly forget names and identifiers on stuff I read... god how to explain this? Give me a moment, what I just said it utterly inadequet
 856 2012-08-22 16:30:12 <CodeLion> For example: suppose I read: "Cat: a four legged animal with hair. Often domesticated, likes fish." On a webpage, then follow a link to a different, related piece of info. I will remember the deffinition but not the name. So I remember 4 legs etc, but not the word "cat"
 857 2012-08-22 16:30:22 <CodeLion> So when I try to find stuff online,
 858 2012-08-22 16:30:29 <CodeLion> I lose track of stuff quickly
 859 2012-08-22 16:30:42 <CodeLion> do you follow that at all?
 860 2012-08-22 16:31:29 <CodeLion> However thank you very much for the 3rd link
 861 2012-08-22 16:31:39 <CodeLion> I'll go to work on my code now. :D
 862 2012-08-22 16:31:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm not being too much of a dick on that marker address thread, am I?
 863 2012-08-22 16:32:38 bonks has joined
 864 2012-08-22 16:33:11 <lianj> btw thats a damn ugly ruby example on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
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 866 2012-08-22 16:35:53 <BlueMatt> lianj: its a wiki, fix it ;)
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 871 2012-08-22 16:52:16 <lianj> BlueMatt: no account, can you edit it please? https://pastee.org/fv2pm
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 875 2012-08-22 17:04:14 <lianj> BlueMatt: or better this version: https://pastee.org/ct88s  (uses only stdlib, so no extra gem/lib to install)
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 878 2012-08-22 17:08:26 <jgarzik> come on, mainnet
 879 2012-08-22 17:08:29 <jgarzik> orphan, damn you
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 881 2012-08-22 17:08:35 <jgarzik> I want to test my reorg code
 882 2012-08-22 17:08:50 <jgarzik> maybe I should switch to testnet3 and enlist gmaxwell's help
 883 2012-08-22 17:08:57 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: find a miner vuln to CVE-2012-2459 ;p
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 885 2012-08-22 17:17:52 <jgarzik> I really should compare pynode's merkle code to bitcoin and bitcoinj's code
 886 2012-08-22 17:18:12 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/blob/master/bitcoin/core.py#L263
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 893 2012-08-22 17:20:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: i expected you to react :p
 894 2012-08-22 17:22:00 <phantomcircuit> i sort of wonder about the use of RIPEMD160
 895 2012-08-22 17:22:16 <lianj> jgarzik: isnt something like `return nil if tx != tx.uniq` at the top enough?
 896 2012-08-22 17:22:21 <phantomcircuit> it's not nearly as well understood as the other cryptographic primitives used in the protocol
 897 2012-08-22 17:23:09 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: use of RIPEMD160 where specifically?  address, script or other?
 898 2012-08-22 17:23:17 <phantomcircuit> address
 899 2012-08-22 17:23:36 <phantomcircuit> there are so many layers of sha256 i doubt it's really an issue
 900 2012-08-22 17:23:42 <phantomcircuit> but it just seems odd
 901 2012-08-22 17:29:07 * jgarzik ponders prediction markets, and forgiveness vs. permission
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 907 2012-08-22 17:34:53 <lianj> jgarzik: ?
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 955 2012-08-22 17:50:48 <jine_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=24792 <-- Anyone in here that knows what that dude IRCs under?
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 961 2012-08-22 17:52:22 <copumpkin> jine_: I'm not sure he does
 962 2012-08-22 17:52:40 denisx_ has joined
 963 2012-08-22 17:52:45 <jine_> Crap, thanks for the answer tho
 964 2012-08-22 17:52:54 <jine_> I have some serious questions for wtf he talks about in the forums
 965 2012-08-22 17:53:00 Raccoon has joined
 966 2012-08-22 17:53:01 <jine_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102407 to be more precise.
 967 2012-08-22 17:53:37 <jine_> He mentioned me by name, and made some REALLY strange connection between "Tom Williams"(?) or "pireat40" to me, cause i own piratekopiera.com
 968 2012-08-22 17:53:43 <jine_> Make no fucking sense.
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 974 2012-08-22 17:58:57 <Joric> does bitcoin-qt try to build a changeless transaction first?
 975 2012-08-22 17:59:51 <CodeLion> Hey I have a question which depending on the anwer could be a suggestion: Any chance that a future version of the client will support specifying a location to load/save the waller from? I'd like to be able to use a truecrypt-like USB drive I built without having to transfer the wallet file around all the time... that just scares me
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1004 2012-08-22 18:37:26 <bonks> Any microsoft .net reverse engineers? pm me for a small job, paid with btc
1005 2012-08-22 18:44:59 <tonikt> .net is lame, man :)
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1008 2012-08-22 18:54:30 <wumpus> CodeLion--Away: yes, opening wallets in other locations is planned for multiple wallet support
1009 2012-08-22 18:55:17 CodeLion--Away is now known as CodeLion
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1018 2012-08-22 19:07:31 <jgarzik>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S PU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
1019 2012-08-22 19:07:31 <jgarzik> 11119 jgarzik   39  19  911m 137m 3604 S  0.7  3.5   9:41.02 bitcoind
1020 2012-08-22 19:07:31 <jgarzik> 11162 jgarzik   20   0  233m  42m 3628 S  0.0  1.1   0:49.57 node.py
1021 2012-08-22 19:07:40 <jgarzik> I like it.
1022 2012-08-22 19:11:28 <spitteler> sendfrom 	<fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment] [comment-to]
1023 2012-08-22 19:11:45 <spitteler> how do i get the fromaccount information for the sendfrom command
1024 2012-08-22 19:12:19 <jgarzik> spitteler: listaccounts ?
1025 2012-08-22 19:12:57 <Joric> jgarzik, does bitcoin-qt try a changeless transaction first?
1026 2012-08-22 19:13:51 <jgarzik> Joric: don't recall.  coin selection is full of hueristics.
1027 2012-08-22 19:15:11 <Joric> k i guess the oldest coins go first anyway
1028 2012-08-22 19:15:20 <gmaxwell> er. no thats not how it works.
1029 2012-08-22 19:16:28 sirk390 has joined
1030 2012-08-22 19:16:42 <gmaxwell> Joric: it tries for an exact 1:1 match first, then it goes through its solver which attempts to reduce inputs. Then it decides if it needs change or not.
1031 2012-08-22 19:16:55 davout has joined
1032 2012-08-22 19:17:05 <gmaxwell> It doesn't try to use the oldest coins, except in so far as it does its first past considering only coins with >=6 confirms.
1033 2012-08-22 19:17:17 <gmaxwell> Then if that fails it tries >=1 confirms.
1034 2012-08-22 19:17:40 <gmaxwell> Joric: (and your own change is special cased)
1035 2012-08-22 19:17:41 <Joric> but... oldest coins have more priority
1036 2012-08-22 19:17:50 nanotube is now known as cleancat
1037 2012-08-22 19:17:51 <gmaxwell> Joric: yes, and it doesn't give a shit. It's fee blind.
1038 2012-08-22 19:18:03 cleancat is now known as nanotube
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1057 2012-08-22 20:08:02 <Joric> great startup, deserves its own domain https://vanitypool.appspot.com
1058 2012-08-22 20:09:03 <Joric> heh http://vanitypool.com already taken in 2000
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1066 2012-08-22 20:22:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: your rpc split changed it from having one file that took forever to compile to having several files that take forever.
1067 2012-08-22 20:22:25 <gmaxwell> (forever; each)
1068 2012-08-22 20:27:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: make -sj9 wall clock time increases?
1069 2012-08-22 20:27:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it's the fscking json_spirit stuff
1070 2012-08-22 20:29:26 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
1071 2012-08-22 20:29:56 <Diapolo> I saw there is a newer version of json_spirit available, why are we using external code there?
1072 2012-08-22 20:30:43 <jgarzik> I think there is an option for compiling templates
1073 2012-08-22 20:31:47 <gmaxwell> it also looks like it enormously bloated the binary.
1074 2012-08-22 20:31:53 <gmaxwell> checking now.
1075 2012-08-22 20:32:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: try -flto, too
1076 2012-08-22 20:32:29 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: no way do I have enough ram for that on my binary.
1077 2012-08-22 20:32:32 <gmaxwell> er laptop.
1078 2012-08-22 20:34:00 <jgarzik> There are two ways to use the library:
1079 2012-08-22 20:34:01 <jgarzik>     Build and link in the JSON Spirit an object library.
1080 2012-08-22 20:34:01 <jgarzik>     Just include the relevant header files, i.e., "header only" use.
1081 2012-08-22 20:34:05 <jgarzik> </json spirit website>
1082 2012-08-22 20:34:17 <jgarzik> we need to do the former
1083 2012-08-22 20:34:33 zooko has joined
1084 2012-08-22 20:34:43 <jgarzik> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/20027/JSON-Spirit-A-C-JSON-Parser-Generator-Implemented
1085 2012-08-22 20:34:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: your change only added 2MB (to the 42MB binary).
1086 2012-08-22 20:35:06 <gmaxwell> In the last couple months we've grown a bunch.
1087 2012-08-22 20:35:46 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd src]$ ls -l bitcoind
1088 2012-08-22 20:35:46 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik 15249732 Aug 21 12:24 bitcoind
1089 2012-08-22 20:35:50 <jgarzik> that's with debug info
1090 2012-08-22 20:35:54 <jgarzik> Fedora 16, x86-64
1091 2012-08-22 20:36:15 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd src]$ size bitcoind
1092 2012-08-22 20:36:15 <jgarzik>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
1093 2012-08-22 20:36:15 <jgarzik> 1794993	   6840	  12224	1814057	 1bae29	bitcoind
1094 2012-08-22 20:36:54 <gmaxwell> e.g. I have a may 3rd bitcoind which is 27mb, and a Jun 17th which is 36MB
1095 2012-08-22 20:37:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: os?  it's quite larger
1096 2012-08-22 20:38:01 <gmaxwell> Fedora 17
1097 2012-08-22 20:38:16 <gmaxwell> All these sizes are nuts; we have something like 35kloc.
1098 2012-08-22 20:38:40 <gmaxwell> too much more and source + compiler will be smaller than our binaries. ;)
1099 2012-08-22 20:38:59 <jgarzik> I included json_spirit in another C++ mini-project of mine (rpcsrv), and it bloated the .o files to 40MB each
1100 2012-08-22 20:39:23 <sipa> what's the verdict?
1101 2012-08-22 20:39:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I blame template insanity
1102 2012-08-22 20:39:37 <gmaxwell> does json_spirit include a virtual machine and a copy of firefox inside it for json parsing? :)
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1105 2012-08-22 20:40:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, just a universal turing machine implemented in the type system
1106 2012-08-22 20:40:14 <gmaxwell> I blame the C abstract machine for making the memory hierarchy of real machines invisible to developers. :)
1107 2012-08-22 20:40:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: see that link above...  there are four defined we can tweak to perhaps slim that down a bit
1108 2012-08-22 20:40:23 <jgarzik> but really... we need json_spirit lib mode
1109 2012-08-22 20:40:27 <jgarzik> not #include template mode
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1111 2012-08-22 20:40:54 <jgarzik> without -flto, big difference from above:
1112 2012-08-22 20:40:55 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd src]$ ls -l bitcoind ; size bitcoind
1113 2012-08-22 20:40:55 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik 43872636 Aug 22 16:34 bitcoind
1114 2012-08-22 20:40:55 <jgarzik>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
1115 2012-08-22 20:40:55 <jgarzik> 2409310	   7412	  12160	2428882	 250fd2	bitcoind
1116 2012-08-22 20:41:01 <jgarzik> that tells the tale...
1117 2012-08-22 20:41:46 <jgarzik> it is all symbol info...
1118 2012-08-22 20:41:48 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd src]$ strip bitcoind ; ls -l bitcoind
1119 2012-08-22 20:41:48 <jgarzik> -rwxrwxr-x 1 jgarzik jgarzik 2421656 Aug 22 16:35 bitcoind
1120 2012-08-22 20:42:04 <jgarzik> as size(1) told us above, of course
1121 2012-08-22 20:42:21 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
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1145 2012-08-22 20:48:46 <sipa> wth happenned?
1146 2012-08-22 20:48:59 <gmaxwell> fking freenode services were down.
1147 2012-08-22 20:49:10 <gmaxwell> (because of a power outage at OSUOSL, I suppose)
1148 2012-08-22 20:49:26 <gmaxwell> When they came back up they punted all users that had a must-register-to-use-this-name
1149 2012-08-22 20:49:31 zooko has joined
1150 2012-08-22 20:49:58 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik: standard makefile build: 40.8 -> 2.4 MB by stripping; with -O3 -flto: 2.6 -> 1.8 MB
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1153 2012-08-22 20:50:36 <copumpkin> amiller: that is a sight I want to see
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1168 2012-08-22 20:57:23 <Diapolo> sipa: -O3 causes errors with Boost, at least it does on Windows with MinGW and Boost 1.50 ;).
1169 2012-08-22 20:57:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: sounds like I was chickenlittleing a bit over the binary size then.
1170 2012-08-22 20:57:39 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: compile errors?
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1176 2012-08-22 21:02:25 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I can't remember exactly what it was, but I prevented me to create a valid build.
1177 2012-08-22 21:02:31 <Diapolo> I = it
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1182 2012-08-22 21:10:19 <sebicas> Quick questions… how I do know the Block # from a Raw Block?
1183 2012-08-22 21:10:23 <sebicas> I am using pynode
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1186 2012-08-22 21:12:26 <sipa> sebicas: a raw block does not contain that information
1187 2012-08-22 21:12:51 <sebicas> sipa: And how can I get it?
1188 2012-08-22 21:12:51 <sipa> if its prevhash refers to a block that has height N, it itself has height N+1
1189 2012-08-22 21:13:07 <sipa> no idea, i don't know the pynode code
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1191 2012-08-22 21:13:10 <sipa> jgarzik: ^
1192 2012-08-22 21:13:12 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: Plenty of such messages raise with -O3: ...\build\addrman.o:-1: Fehler:duplicate section `.data$_ZGVN5boost12interprocess9ipcdetail31unrestricted_permissions_holderILi0EE12unrestrictedE[guard variable for boost::interprocess::ipcdetail::unrestricted_permissions_holder<0>::unrestricted]' has different size
1193 2012-08-22 21:14:04 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1194 2012-08-22 21:14:20 <sebicas> sipa: ok great! Thx!
1195 2012-08-22 21:14:24 gavin_train has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1196 2012-08-22 21:14:44 <Diapolo> Related to interprocess and spirit it seems.
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1199 2012-08-22 21:15:17 <sebicas> sipa: what do I do when I have 2 blocks with the same prevhash
1200 2012-08-22 21:15:33 <sebicas> How do I know wich one is the correct?
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1202 2012-08-22 21:15:37 <sebicas> http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
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1204 2012-08-22 21:16:09 <gmaxwell> sebicas: the correct one is the one which is a member of the longest completely valid chain.
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1207 2012-08-22 21:17:13 <sebicas> gmaxwell: But for example in http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
1208 2012-08-22 21:17:27 <sebicas> There are 2 blocks for 195043
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1211 2012-08-22 21:18:13 <sebicas> And the valid has only 12 tx and the invalid 905, and was even broadcasted earlier
1212 2012-08-22 21:18:18 <denisx> sebicas: there can be only one! ;)
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1214 2012-08-22 21:18:39 <amiller> if it's invalid, it doesn't count at all
1215 2012-08-22 21:18:56 <sebicas> denisx: Yes I know what… I need to know how to chose the correct one
1216 2012-08-22 21:18:59 <sipa> sebicas: i'm sure that pynode keeps a nice block database/index, which you can query for the height
1217 2012-08-22 21:19:06 <sipa> but i haven't ever looked at its source
1218 2012-08-22 21:19:15 <denisx> sebicas: the longest chain wins
1219 2012-08-22 21:19:18 <sebicas> sipa: No, I am using pynode with bitcoind
1220 2012-08-22 21:19:34 <sipa> you're using both?
1221 2012-08-22 21:19:37 <sebicas> Yes
1222 2012-08-22 21:19:44 <sipa> why?
1223 2012-08-22 21:19:58 <sebicas> I am creating a new library..
1224 2012-08-22 21:20:10 <sipa> what for?
1225 2012-08-22 21:20:12 <sebicas> That will monitor events on bitcoind
1226 2012-08-22 21:20:34 <sipa> pynode can do that just fine for you
1227 2012-08-22 21:20:45 <sebicas> Yes, but can't send transactions
1228 2012-08-22 21:20:52 <sebicas> I need both
1229 2012-08-22 21:21:11 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1230 2012-08-22 21:21:17 <sipa> ok, so oyu have both
1231 2012-08-22 21:21:21 <Guest67990> jgarzik, i'd suggest hashlib instead of Crypto.Hash, the latter is mostly not installed
1232 2012-08-22 21:21:34 <sipa> so you can use either to find the height of blocks
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1237 2012-08-22 21:22:19 <sebicas> Well I got the raw block info on pynode,
1238 2012-08-22 21:22:27 <gmaxwell> sebicas: if you're trying to figure out for yourself which block is in the chain, I suspect you're going to get yourself into trouble.
1239 2012-08-22 21:22:27 <sipa> raw block info is not what you need
1240 2012-08-22 21:22:31 <sebicas> I can just ask bitcoind for the block #
1241 2012-08-22 21:22:36 <sipa> yes
1242 2012-08-22 21:22:38 <gmaxwell> sebicas: yes, you can.
1243 2012-08-22 21:22:47 <sipa> the 'getblock' RPC call
1244 2012-08-22 21:22:51 <sebicas> Yes, I just didn't want to do it like that..
1245 2012-08-22 21:23:09 <gmaxwell> getblockhash 1234   will get you the hash of a particular block, then getblock on that hash to get the details.
1246 2012-08-22 21:23:10 <sebicas> I wanted to see if I can just figure it out from the raw block
1247 2012-08-22 21:23:10 <sipa> well, i'm sure pynode can tell you that just fine too
1248 2012-08-22 21:23:24 <sipa> the raw block simply does not contain that information
1249 2012-08-22 21:23:29 <sipa> you need a block index for that
1250 2012-08-22 21:23:36 <sebicas> sipa: I am using a very early version of pynode
1251 2012-08-22 21:23:37 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1252 2012-08-22 21:23:50 <sipa> then use a more up-to-date one, or use bitcoind
1253 2012-08-22 21:24:18 <sebicas> sipa: no the new one has all the building database, etc.. and I don't like to have that..
1254 2012-08-22 21:24:33 <sebicas> sipa: I just need a small code that can generate events
1255 2012-08-22 21:24:42 <sipa> ok, good; so use bitcoind :)
1256 2012-08-22 21:24:53 <sebicas> bitcoind can not generate events
1257 2012-08-22 21:24:54 <gmaxwell> sebicas: well, you can't figure it out from the raw block, it's in fact unknowable from it; and in some cases unknowable without future blocks.
1258 2012-08-22 21:25:04 <sebicas> You need to query RCP-JSON
1259 2012-08-22 21:25:09 <gmaxwell> sebicas: it can, thus -blocknotify
1260 2012-08-22 21:25:22 <sebicas> I need transactions also..
1261 2012-08-22 21:25:28 <sipa> sebicas: or use pynode to get events, and then query bitcoind to get the data
1262 2012-08-22 21:25:49 <sebicas> sipa: Yes I guess is going to be my only option..
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1264 2012-08-22 21:26:16 <sipa> why is it a problem?
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1266 2012-08-22 21:27:42 <sebicas> Because I need to had RCP Libraries and I like to keep the code as simple and small as possible
1267 2012-08-22 21:28:04 <sipa> RPC...
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1269 2012-08-22 21:28:06 <sebicas> And also add complexity, etc..
1270 2012-08-22 21:28:16 <sebicas> To query bitcoind
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1272 2012-08-22 21:28:56 <sipa> you already need an RPC library and that complexity in order to ask bitcoind to send payments
1273 2012-08-22 21:29:24 <sebicas> sipa: yes but that is another part of the system..
1274 2012-08-22 21:29:36 <sipa> ok then
1275 2012-08-22 21:29:38 <sebicas> This is a very secure server..
1276 2012-08-22 21:29:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1277 2012-08-22 21:29:51 <sipa> i certainly hope so, if you're doing payments
1278 2012-08-22 21:30:10 <sebicas> With minimal out side interaction as possible.
1279 2012-08-22 21:30:38 ThomasV has joined
1280 2012-08-22 21:30:56 <sebicas> So I didn't want to add another point of possible attack
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1285 2012-08-22 21:36:38 <jgarzik> Joric: yes, I agree hashlib is better
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1288 2012-08-22 21:36:56 <jgarzik> Joric: crypto.hash was chosen for ripemd160, but it turns out hashlib has steal ripemd160 support
1289 2012-08-22 21:37:01 <jgarzik> *stealth
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1304 2012-08-22 21:50:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, gotta specify it as a string
1305 2012-08-22 21:50:17 <phantomcircuit> and it's not always available
1306 2012-08-22 21:50:51 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: for all practical purposes, it is always available
1307 2012-08-22 21:51:06 <phantomcircuit> well you can build python without it
1308 2012-08-22 21:51:08 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
1309 2012-08-22 21:51:13 <phantomcircuit> but yet
1310 2012-08-22 21:51:15 <phantomcircuit> yes*
1311 2012-08-22 21:51:41 <phantomcircuit> a simple
1312 2012-08-22 21:52:15 <phantomcircuit> catch the ValueError and give a nice error
1313 2012-08-22 21:52:18 <phantomcircuit> or not
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1315 2012-08-22 21:53:08 <sipa> hmm, the DER specification says that in an encoded 2's completement integer, the bits of the first byte and the last bit of the second byte shall not be all 0, and shall not be all 1
1316 2012-08-22 21:53:31 <sipa> the first rule i understand, that would be an extra 0 padding byte in front
1317 2012-08-22 21:53:38 <phantomcircuit> yes but who follows the rules?
1318 2012-08-22 21:53:58 <sipa> phantomcircuit: bitcoin does
1319 2012-08-22 21:54:07 <phantomcircuit> lold
1320 2012-08-22 21:54:29 <phantomcircuit> im still waiting for someone to break into metaexch.com
1321 2012-08-22 21:54:38 <phantomcircuit> afaikt nobody has even tried
1322 2012-08-22 21:55:10 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit (or Joric): pynode pull requests welcome ;-)
1323 2012-08-22 21:55:50 <phantomcircuit> lol
1324 2012-08-22 21:55:52 <phantomcircuit> maybe
1325 2012-08-22 21:56:41 * jgarzik needs to steal Joric's base58 stuff
1326 2012-08-22 21:57:21 <phantomcircuit> why did you go with CTransaction instead of just Transaction
1327 2012-08-22 21:58:36 <phantomcircuit> weird
1328 2012-08-22 21:58:38 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: pynode started out from ArtForz' client
1329 2012-08-22 21:58:47 <phantomcircuit> ok well i'll tell you what the flaw in metaexch.com is
1330 2012-08-22 21:58:47 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: and it matches bitcoin
1331 2012-08-22 21:58:51 <phantomcircuit> the root password was password
1332 2012-08-22 21:59:23 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, have you seen the python code i had ?
1333 2012-08-22 21:59:41 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: a while ago, yeah.  I've got a git clone on the local drive somewhere...
1334 2012-08-22 22:00:01 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1335 2012-08-22 22:01:39 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol i like the simple Cache object
1336 2012-08-22 22:02:02 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1338 2012-08-22 22:04:08 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, using bdb?
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1340 2012-08-22 22:05:16 <phantomcircuit> i suspect that a normal sql setup could work if changes were committed in large blocks
1341 2012-08-22 22:05:42 <phantomcircuit> asynchronous networking doesn't lend itself to batched updates very well though
1342 2012-08-22 22:05:58 <phantomcircuit> so you need some sort of marshaller to construct blocks
1343 2012-08-22 22:06:01 <phantomcircuit> which leads to a mess
1344 2012-08-22 22:06:02 <phantomcircuit> heh
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1349 2012-08-22 22:10:03 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: separate gdbm dbs for separate elements.  a non-atomic mess, but should be replaced soon with https://github.com/jgarzik/pagedb (a python k/v database):
1350 2012-08-22 22:10:08 <sipa> k, my IsCanonicalSignature function contains 15 tests
1351 2012-08-22 22:10:22 <sipa> i wonder whether they're correct :)
1352 2012-08-22 22:10:44 <sipa> (yes, i'll compare with just asking OpenSSL to decode+encode)
1353 2012-08-22 22:10:48 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: pagedb should be fine with massive block import
1354 2012-08-22 22:11:25 <phantomcircuit> well it has less to do with the database and more to do with the style of programming
1355 2012-08-22 22:11:34 <phantomcircuit> async with callbacks you tend to process things one at a time
1356 2012-08-22 22:11:51 <phantomcircuit> so you then have to put them back together into blocks
1357 2012-08-22 22:12:25 <phantomcircuit> i started this with a marshaller that ran as a separate thread and would process blocks and push them to the rest of the program and the database every second or so
1358 2012-08-22 22:12:41 <phantomcircuit> the problem with this is initial block chain download there's a 1 second lag between 500 block groups
1359 2012-08-22 22:12:45 <phantomcircuit> so it's a nuisance
1360 2012-08-22 22:12:45 <phantomcircuit> heh
1361 2012-08-22 22:12:52 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: easily handled with pagedb
1362 2012-08-22 22:12:57 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: (which is rather like leveldb)
1363 2012-08-22 22:13:07 <phantomcircuit> how?
1364 2012-08-22 22:13:31 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: checkpoint in a separate thread
1365 2012-08-22 22:13:36 <phantomcircuit> oh
1366 2012-08-22 22:13:53 <phantomcircuit> right but you dont really want to be telling the rest of the program that you have a block before it's out to disk
1367 2012-08-22 22:14:01 <phantomcircuit> although i guess that doesn't really matter
1368 2012-08-22 22:14:10 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: pagedb's data files are all readonly (thus updates are COW).  I think leveldb is the same.
1369 2012-08-22 22:14:16 <phantomcircuit> since your local representation of the block chain is really logically just a cache
1370 2012-08-22 22:14:24 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: indeed.  pagedb is transactional.
1371 2012-08-22 22:14:46 <jgarzik> and one transaction per block is just fine
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1373 2012-08-22 22:15:10 <jgarzik> (technically speaking, one transaction per block + txindex)
1374 2012-08-22 22:15:28 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1375 2012-08-22 22:15:29 <phantomcircuit> well
1376 2012-08-22 22:15:40 <phantomcircuit> trying to connect the block chain in a way that's sane in sql is complicated
1377 2012-08-22 22:15:51 <phantomcircuit> for each relationship you need a separate record
1378 2012-08-22 22:15:56 <phantomcircuit> which gets slow very quickly
1379 2012-08-22 22:16:05 <jgarzik> sounds like it
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1381 2012-08-22 22:16:36 * jgarzik needs to update pagedb to support python-like sets, as well as the standard k/v dictionary
1382 2012-08-22 22:17:02 <jgarzik> after that, multi-column support
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1388 2012-08-22 22:22:02 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: if you want to jumpstart the block download, here is a database snapshot for pynode: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/chaindb.tar.bz2 (2.3G)
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1395 2012-08-22 22:36:26 <tcatm_> Downloading the blockchain on a Pentium 2 with 300MHz is pretty slow :)
1396 2012-08-22 22:36:36 dvide has quit ()
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1398 2012-08-22 22:38:39 <sipa> tcatm_: depends on its network connection ;)
1399 2012-08-22 22:41:01 <tcatm_>  350MBit/s
1400 2012-08-22 22:41:40 <sipa> (i'm being pedantic, but you said downloading, not processing)
1401 2012-08-22 22:41:45 <sipa> nvm :)
1402 2012-08-22 22:43:30 boonies4u has joined
1403 2012-08-22 22:44:07 <boonies4u> anyone else notice you can search blockchain.info with tab in chrome's omnibox?
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1406 2012-08-22 22:46:22 <tcatm_> Is anyone of you coming to frOSCon next weekend?
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1414 2012-08-22 23:01:40 <zooko> #t
1415 2012-08-22 23:01:42 <zooko> oops
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