1 2012-08-24 00:00:05 <copumpkin> ?
   2 2012-08-24 00:00:28 <gmaxwell>     {
   3 2012-08-24 00:00:29 <gmaxwell>         "account" : "",
   4 2012-08-24 00:00:29 <gmaxwell>         "address" : "mgrxrEzVVvf5TDt4PVc3EpiJrJGt52RXfZ",
   5 2012-08-24 00:00:29 <gmaxwell>         "category" : "send",
   6 2012-08-24 00:00:29 <gmaxwell>         "amount" : -100.00000000,
   7 2012-08-24 00:00:31 <gmaxwell>         "fee" : 50.00000000,
   8 2012-08-24 00:00:33 <gmaxwell>         "confirmations" : 12357,
   9 2012-08-24 00:00:36 <gmaxwell>         "blockhash" : "000000000a1c221d4b202487d100272fdbb86de1a5f088af7c8b35f8e3965f82",
  10 2012-08-24 00:00:39 <gmaxwell>         "blockindex" : 1,
  11 2012-08-24 00:00:42 <gmaxwell>         "blocktime" : 1338181040,
  12 2012-08-24 00:00:44 <gmaxwell>         "txid" : "61ce7f9afc444907f9dc5521dfbaf0e004fd44f9a54777d60796625a164a6ec4",
  13 2012-08-24 00:00:47 <gmaxwell>         "time" : 1343512094,
  14 2012-08-24 00:00:50 <gmaxwell>         "timereceived" : 1343512094
  15 2012-08-24 00:00:52 <gmaxwell>     },
  16 2012-08-24 00:00:55 <gmaxwell> This is a transaction where my wallet only has one of the two 50 btc inputs.
  17 2012-08-24 00:00:58 <gmaxwell> the wallet code, somewhat insanely shows: "fee" : 50.00000000,
  18 2012-08-24 00:01:05 <gmaxwell> Fee is _normally_ negative; but here its calling the "missing input" fee.
  19 2012-08-24 00:01:32 <gmaxwell> thats one of the weirdnesses you can get from exportwallet/importwallet ; but you can also get it with rawtransactions.
  20 2012-08-24 00:02:13 <Luke-Jr> ew
  21 2012-08-24 00:03:45 <gmaxwell> well, without it, the wallet's accounting doesn't zero sum.
  22 2012-08-24 00:04:04 <gmaxwell> I suppose there should be a "wtf" : 50.0, there.
  23 2012-08-24 00:04:13 <gmaxwell> instead of fee. :)
  24 2012-08-24 00:04:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: ACK
  25 2012-08-24 00:05:31 <Eliel> gmaxwell: yes, "wtf" : 50.0 is much better than "fee": 50.0 :D
  26 2012-08-24 00:06:01 <Luke-Jr> nice
  27 2012-08-24 00:06:33 <gmaxwell> I don't recall if there was any other reasons the import/export were unsafe, beyond the dangers that dump/import have.
  28 2012-08-24 00:07:28 one_zero has joined
  29 2012-08-24 00:09:44 <Eliel> gmaxwell: although, really, perhaps the better fix is to show "amount": -50.0
  30 2012-08-24 00:09:58 <Eliel> the other 50.0 is coins from outside the wallet so it does not need to be there.
  31 2012-08-24 00:10:40 MC-Eeepc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  34 2012-08-24 00:14:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nope, not my patch
  35 2012-08-24 00:14:35 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  36 2012-08-24 00:15:25 <midnightmagic> i love the wtf idea. screw the confusion, I'd use that just for the awesomeness
  37 2012-08-24 00:15:30 <copumpkin> whee, I haz my own (debug) build of bitcoin-qt for mac os now
  38 2012-08-24 00:15:47 <sipa> R-E-S-T-E-C-P
  39 2012-08-24 00:16:16 <midnightmagic> copumpkin: that was quick, how did you get the qt prereq into your os/x box?
  40 2012-08-24 00:16:22 <copumpkin> I installed it!
  41 2012-08-24 00:16:27 <midnightmagic> lol
  42 2012-08-24 00:16:31 <copumpkin> >_>
  43 2012-08-24 00:16:45 <midnightmagic> fink?
  44 2012-08-24 00:16:55 <copumpkin> nah, graphical installer
  45 2012-08-24 00:16:58 <copumpkin> it's linked from the readme
  46 2012-08-24 00:18:01 <copumpkin> whee, I haz debug window
  47 2012-08-24 00:19:47 <sipa> tonikt: what did you do again to fix the boost-win32.yml?
  48 2012-08-24 00:19:51 <copumpkin> how can I pass the key pool size to bitcoind from the debug window in -qt?
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  50 2012-08-24 00:20:00 <sipa> copumpkin: -keypool=N
  51 2012-08-24 00:20:11 <sipa> ah, debug window?
  52 2012-08-24 00:20:14 <copumpkin> yeah
  53 2012-08-24 00:20:20 <sipa> not possible, i'm afraid
  54 2012-08-24 00:20:24 <copumpkin> I don't really get to pass cmd line args to a graphical program in Mac OS
  55 2012-08-24 00:20:28 denisx_ has joined
  56 2012-08-24 00:20:34 <copumpkin> not easily, anyway
  57 2012-08-24 00:20:38 <sipa> ?
  58 2012-08-24 00:20:50 <sipa> you can also put keypool=N in bitcoin.conf
  59 2012-08-24 00:21:05 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  60 2012-08-24 00:21:07 <sipa> but either you're running bitcoin-qt, or you're running bitcoind
  61 2012-08-24 00:21:19 <copumpkin> well, I have 0.7 and a debug window
  62 2012-08-24 00:21:21 <sipa> it's not that the debug windows is an interface to some underlying bitcoind
  63 2012-08-24 00:21:23 <copumpkin> to type commands into
  64 2012-08-24 00:21:24 <copumpkin> ah
  65 2012-08-24 00:21:35 <sipa> it's just an RPC client, just like bitcoind is as well
  66 2012-08-24 00:22:07 <sipa> some command to change some run-time parameters would be nice maybe
  67 2012-08-24 00:22:10 <copumpkin> can I ask it to reload bitcoin.conf?
  68 2012-08-24 00:22:12 <copumpkin> or must I restart?
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  70 2012-08-24 00:22:19 <sipa> restart
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  75 2012-08-24 00:24:32 <copumpkin> can I ask what the keypool size is to make sure it noticed my bitcoin.conf?
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  77 2012-08-24 00:26:01 <copumpkin> looks like it's working
  78 2012-08-24 00:26:05 <copumpkin> cause keypoolrefill is now taking a while
  79 2012-08-24 00:28:09 <copumpkin> okay, wallet backed up :)
  80 2012-08-24 00:28:14 wizkid057 has joined
  81 2012-08-24 00:28:18 <copumpkin> should I avoid using my custom build and go back to the released one?
  82 2012-08-24 00:30:24 <copumpkin> I assume the older one is still compatible
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  84 2012-08-24 00:34:20 <midnightmagic> 100 is the default copumpkin
  85 2012-08-24 00:34:30 <copumpkin> I set 1000 and it took a bit
  86 2012-08-24 00:36:01 <copumpkin> but there's no risk if I open 0.6.2 after running 0.7, right?
  87 2012-08-24 00:36:08 <copumpkin> or head, or whatever the current dev version is called
  88 2012-08-24 00:36:31 <Luke-Jr> there's always risk with unreleased software
  89 2012-08-24 00:36:35 <Luke-Jr> and even the releases are beta
  90 2012-08-24 00:36:35 <copumpkin> :)
  91 2012-08-24 00:36:45 <copumpkin> you know what I'm asking
  92 2012-08-24 00:36:53 <copumpkin> are there any known issues with opening a 0.7 wallet with 0.6.2?
  93 2012-08-24 00:37:05 <BlueMatt> there are no known bugs which would cause an issue
  94 2012-08-24 00:37:07 <BlueMatt> (afaik)
  95 2012-08-24 00:37:09 <copumpkin> okay, thanks
  96 2012-08-24 00:37:25 <BlueMatt> (which, btw, isnt very far)
  97 2012-08-24 00:37:29 <copumpkin> :)
  98 2012-08-24 00:37:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: want to fix gitian builds? :P
  99 2012-08-24 00:38:09 <BlueMatt> you mean the @@ thing?
 100 2012-08-24 00:38:59 <Luke-Jr> the patch to add a #define isn't indented like gitian expects
 101 2012-08-24 00:39:10 <Luke-Jr> and really should be moved to the bitcoin sources imo
 102 2012-08-24 00:39:27 <BlueMatt> someone yesterday? was saying it crashed gitian because that patch had an @@ that ruby was parsing
 103 2012-08-24 00:39:38 <Luke-Jr> sounds like the same problem
 104 2012-08-24 00:40:05 <BlueMatt> he said he would send a patch...but he didnt...
 105 2012-08-24 00:40:13 <Luke-Jr> >_<
 106 2012-08-24 00:40:16 <BlueMatt> anyway, patches welcome, it wfm, so I cant really fix it...
 107 2012-08-24 00:40:27 <Luke-Jr> it couldn't possibly wfy O.o
 108 2012-08-24 00:40:47 <BlueMatt> has the patch changed sine 0.6?
 109 2012-08-24 00:41:19 <Luke-Jr> … it wasn't merged until after 0.6
 110 2012-08-24 00:42:08 <BlueMatt> oh...well meh...Ill fix it if no one else does in a day or two
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 113 2012-08-24 00:45:52 <Perlboy> Hey network related question since I don't know all the ports bitcoind does comms on, multiple active bitcoind's behind NAT, is there possible problems?
 114 2012-08-24 00:46:14 <Perlboy> and how many connections per bitcoind can one expect
 115 2012-08-24 00:46:17 <Perlboy> 100s? 1000s?
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 136 2012-08-24 01:43:29 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: maximum by default is 125.
 137 2012-08-24 01:43:30 da2ce7 has joined
 138 2012-08-24 01:44:01 <gmaxwell> if you have multiple ones behind nat, you can probably only expect inbound connections on one of them. that shouldn't be a problem.
 139 2012-08-24 01:44:37 <gmaxwell> 17:04 < Eliel> gmaxwell: although, really, perhaps the better fix is to show "amount": -50.0
 140 2012-08-24 01:44:40 <gmaxwell> 17:04 < Eliel> the other 50.0 is coins from outside the wallet so it does not need to be there.
 141 2012-08-24 01:45:00 <gmaxwell> but thats confusing too, because then I'll think the value of transaction 61ce7f9afc444907f9dc5521dfbaf0e004fd44f9a54777d60796625a164a6ec4 was 50 BTC.
 142 2012-08-24 01:46:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that would be a bad assumption :P
 143 2012-08-24 01:47:44 <gmaxwell> but there is then no way for someone to see the output value of the transaction.
 144 2012-08-24 01:48:06 <gmaxwell> getrawtransaction won't tell you, generally, because it doesn't identify change outputs.
 145 2012-08-24 01:48:48 Clipse has joined
 146 2012-08-24 01:59:41 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1716 look good to you?
 147 2012-08-24 01:59:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: can you test as well? ^
 148 2012-08-24 02:02:24 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 149 2012-08-24 02:10:38 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: is there a reason there is a change on gitian-win32.yml with (apparently) no change?
 150 2012-08-24 02:10:49 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: 1_47 to 1_49
 151 2012-08-24 02:10:58 <Luke-Jr> two instances of it IIRC
 152 2012-08-24 02:11:04 <BlueMatt> does that still build?
 153 2012-08-24 02:11:10 <BlueMatt> or does it need it?
 154 2012-08-24 02:11:15 <Luke-Jr> it does after the change. it doesn't build at all right now.
 155 2012-08-24 02:12:04 <BlueMatt> iirc BOOST_INTERPROCESS_HAS_WINDOWS_KERNEL_BOOTTIME was broken < 1.49
 156 2012-08-24 02:12:30 <Luke-Jr> hmm
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 158 2012-08-24 02:13:03 <Luke-Jr> so we should do #if defined(WIN32) && BOOST_VERSION == 104900 ?
 159 2012-08-24 02:13:06 <BlueMatt> also, Im not a big fan of doing it that way - too easy to mess up later, and its possible something else in boost includes interprocess/... and messes it up (maybe not in current version...)
 160 2012-08-24 02:13:34 <BlueMatt> I have no problem moving it out of the gitian build file, but I still prefer to patch boost directly
 161 2012-08-24 02:13:42 <BlueMatt> maybe add a .patch and make gitian apply it?
 162 2012-08-24 02:13:44 <gmaxwell> Make a boost version wrapper?
 163 2012-08-24 02:13:49 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: how does that work for native buidls?
 164 2012-08-24 02:13:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hows that help someone who is using a system provided boost?
 165 2012-08-24 02:13:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that sounds ok
 166 2012-08-24 02:14:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no one uses a system provided boost to build for win32
 167 2012-08-24 02:14:18 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: everyone building on win32 does afaik
 168 2012-08-24 02:14:22 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: for native builds, it doesnt work, but I just fell like its more likely to break as-is
 169 2012-08-24 02:14:33 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: you still have to build it yourself, it doesnt come with anything
 170 2012-08-24 02:14:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: #include "boost_ipc_workaround.h" ?
 171 2012-08-24 02:14:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: and I would, if I ever bothered to do my own windows builds (fedora mingw has boost)
 172 2012-08-24 02:14:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the problem is that IPC could be added in a file without adding that. :(
 173 2012-08-24 02:15:02 da2ce740 has joined
 174 2012-08-24 02:15:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh, thats right, I did know that...
 175 2012-08-24 02:15:29 <gmaxwell> (though it also has _current_ boost, so it's not an issue there, I guess)
 176 2012-08-24 02:15:47 <gmaxwell> but in general, we should avoid patching boost if we can, and it seems like we can here.
 177 2012-08-24 02:15:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Diapolo said current boost adds yet another library for IPC
 178 2012-08-24 02:16:22 <BlueMatt> alright, lets just upgrade to boost 1.51
 179 2012-08-24 02:16:37 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no big deal, we probably already build it anyway
 180 2012-08-24 02:16:39 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 181 2012-08-24 02:16:49 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: more to break/test/etc
 182 2012-08-24 02:16:50 <BlueMatt> (btw, I believe we can cut down the number of libs we build when we build boost by...a ton)
 183 2012-08-24 02:16:51 * Luke-Jr shrugs
 184 2012-08-24 02:17:02 <BlueMatt> better than patching boost in the first place
 185 2012-08-24 02:17:09 <BlueMatt> (though that patch is really very harmless)
 186 2012-08-24 02:17:39 <Luke-Jr> updating to 1.50+ sounds like more work that I really wanted to put into it tho
 187 2012-08-24 02:18:37 toffoo has joined
 188 2012-08-24 02:19:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can you figure out how this hunk fell out of the pack when you split up the pull? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/898#issuecomment-7980120
 189 2012-08-24 02:20:23 da2ce740 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 190 2012-08-24 02:20:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the original pull was one big giant commit with everything, so I had to pretty much re-patch it by hand. it's possible I simply missed it :/
 191 2012-08-24 02:20:49 <gmaxwell> (and in particular, why are the unit tests passing without that change?)
 192 2012-08-24 02:20:53 <gmaxwell> hm.
 193 2012-08-24 02:21:17 <BlueMatt> now that we have those ProcessBlock unit tests, can we add a real chain?
 194 2012-08-24 02:21:28 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ?
 195 2012-08-24 02:21:46 <BlueMatt> I thought we now did unit tests that ran ProcessBlock with a memory-backed bdb?
 196 2012-08-24 02:21:50 <Luke-Jr> yes
 197 2012-08-24 02:21:55 <BlueMatt> can we add a real test chain import to the test cases
 198 2012-08-24 02:22:01 <Luke-Jr> it does…
 199 2012-08-24 02:22:12 <BlueMatt> ie one that exercises things like MAX_BLOCK_SIZE MAX_BLOCK_SIGOPS, etc, etc, etc
 200 2012-08-24 02:22:17 <Luke-Jr> o
 201 2012-08-24 02:22:24 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I'm pretty sure it does that
 202 2012-08-24 02:23:05 copumpkin is now known as dishonestbob
 203 2012-08-24 02:23:09 <BlueMatt> I see one instance of ProcessBlock in src/test
 204 2012-08-24 02:23:30 <BlueMatt> (its in a loop, but the block is essentially constant)
 205 2012-08-24 02:23:59 dishonestbob is now known as copumpkin
 206 2012-08-24 02:24:23 <BlueMatt> and then it checks like 2 things using CreateNewBlock, but I mean direct tests
 207 2012-08-24 02:24:24 <Luke-Jr> CreateNewBlock runs ConnectBlock
 208 2012-08-24 02:24:35 <BlueMatt> and more, blocks can fail in more than 2 ways
 209 2012-08-24 02:24:49 <Luke-Jr> i c
 210 2012-08-24 02:24:55 <Luke-Jr> sounds like good tests to add
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 214 2012-08-24 02:27:37 <BlueMatt> actually, who has lots o' mining power, I have the blocks, just need them mined?
 215 2012-08-24 02:27:39 <BlueMatt> doesnt gmaxwell?
 216 2012-08-24 02:27:52 <BlueMatt> or Luke-Jr, ofc
 217 2012-08-24 02:28:14 <Luke-Jr> I think gmaxwell has more than me, actually
 218 2012-08-24 02:28:42 * BlueMatt is sitting here with his...cpu
 219 2012-08-24 02:28:44 <Luke-Jr> do you have a poolserver we can just point our miners at maybe?
 220 2012-08-24 02:29:10 <BlueMatt> I'd have to write something, all I have is a bitcoinj script that makes fun blocks using a diff target of like 0x8fff....
 221 2012-08-24 02:30:19 <BlueMatt> meh, Ill write more blocks first, then maybe Ill (eventually) have time to write a getwork server and Ill get this stuff mined into something that doesnt require a low diff target
 222 2012-08-24 02:31:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: there is a specific test case for what he's asking about, but it doesn't fail.
 223 2012-08-24 02:31:38 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: to make the miner tests, I hacked up bitcoind to make easily-calculable blocks; might be worth looking at
 224 2012-08-24 02:31:41 bonks has joined
 225 2012-08-24 02:31:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dead code? is it possible something else takes care of it sooner?
 226 2012-08-24 02:32:41 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: I dont really wanna rewrite all the blocks I already wrote...
 227 2012-08-24 02:33:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hmm, this is weird - the diff for #898 shows it being removed!
 228 2012-08-24 02:34:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: see my revised response to him: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/898#issuecomment-7990483
 229 2012-08-24 02:34:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: in fact, I *don't* see that code in master..
 230 2012-08-24 02:35:10 <Luke-Jr> ..yeah
 231 2012-08-24 02:36:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: IMO, someone should purge the non-master branches off github; the 0.6.2/3 ones at least seem to confuse people
 232 2012-08-24 02:36:23 <Luke-Jr> freenode-verf I presume is not needed anymore, and blockheaders is I presume very stale
 233 2012-08-24 02:36:57 <gmaxwell> I doubt thats his problem. I suspect that he modified his checkout of master at some point, and been git pulling which merged something somewhere without conflict.
 234 2012-08-24 02:37:35 <Luke-Jr> ah
 235 2012-08-24 02:37:37 <Luke-Jr> probably
 236 2012-08-24 02:37:46 <Luke-Jr> but it has been a problem for others at least
 237 2012-08-24 02:37:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sorry for bugging you about that. I didn't even look at it before asking you because I assumed you'd have some idea why you left that change out. :)
 238 2012-08-24 02:38:22 <Luke-Jr> I just assumed dooglus knew what he was talking about >_<
 239 2012-08-24 02:38:39 <gmaxwell> Yea, me too! well, git can be tricky. :)
 240 2012-08-24 02:38:58 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I think I used to do that occasionally
 241 2012-08-24 02:39:04 <Luke-Jr> before I learned to never commit to tracking branches <.<
 242 2012-08-24 02:41:38 <gmaxwell> I wonder if we should change the makefiles to build bitcoin-test by default and to run it at build time.
 243 2012-08-24 02:41:50 <gmaxwell> unless you make bitcoind-notest or something.
 244 2012-08-24 02:42:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my GNUmakefile does that :p
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 330 2012-08-24 06:37:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sorry!
 331 2012-08-24 06:37:11 Maged has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 332 2012-08-24 06:37:28 <wumpus> lol, no problem
 333 2012-08-24 06:37:40 CodesInChaos has joined
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 335 2012-08-24 06:37:57 <gmaxwell> (I'm indifferent to the weird rules; I have a code base (not mine) at work that does that one line thing, so I didn't pay it any attention)
 336 2012-08-24 06:38:25 <wumpus> I'm usually not obessing over coding style either, but this is really really ugly imo
 337 2012-08-24 06:38:40 <wumpus> I'm all for breaking lines if they are too long, but htis is just nonsense
 338 2012-08-24 06:39:54 <gmaxwell> there are a number of other cases of it in the source it seems.
 339 2012-08-24 06:40:14 <wumpus> let me guess, all caused by a certain person 
 340 2012-08-24 06:40:58 <gmaxwell> nope
 341 2012-08-24 06:40:59 <gmaxwell> e3bc5698 (Jeff Garzik 2012-08-21 10:38:57 -0400   26) void
 342 2012-08-24 06:40:59 <gmaxwell> e3bc5698 (Jeff Garzik 2012-08-21 10:38:57 -0400   27) EnsureWalletIsUnlocked()
 343 2012-08-24 06:41:13 <gmaxwell> hm, well perhaps 2012-08-21 was just code motion.
 344 2012-08-24 06:41:30 <Guest95728> gmaxwell: return type should not be on a line by itself
 345 2012-08-24 06:41:41 <wumpus> we know Guest95728 :p
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 349 2012-08-24 06:42:16 * jgarzik_ kicks freenode
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 354 2012-08-24 06:50:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: "@luke-jr also wants to change that, to show mined transactions at depth 1 instead of depth 2." <-- I do?
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 357 2012-08-24 06:57:51 <yellowhat> i think i just had a DOS attack on my bitcoin-qt. i had a single tcp connection which was sucking 5Megabytes/sec from me
 358 2012-08-24 06:58:14 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: sounds like a node pulling the blockchain from you, not a dos attack.
 359 2012-08-24 06:58:55 <yellowhat> well, i never get 5 megabytes/sec when downloading the blockchain :)
 360 2012-08-24 06:59:20 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: well now that guy won't either, if you punted him!
 361 2012-08-24 06:59:48 _flow_ has joined
 362 2012-08-24 07:00:51 <yellowhat> the thing is, my upstream was saturated because of that
 363 2012-08-24 07:01:10 <yellowhat> i should configure better qos on my router then
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 367 2012-08-24 07:07:03 <Luke-Jr> yellowhat: blockchain downloads tend to be bursty, since it's processing-bound
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 383 2012-08-24 07:33:57 <fiesh> a dos attack over a single tcp connection is nonsense...
 384 2012-08-24 07:34:35 <Luke-Jr> fiesh: no, maybe you're confusing DoS with DDoS
 385 2012-08-24 07:35:42 <fiesh> no i'm not
 386 2012-08-24 07:35:53 <fiesh> you have to send data over the tcp connection in order to saturate anythign
 387 2012-08-24 07:36:14 <fiesh> whatever, good night
 388 2012-08-24 07:36:26 <Luke-Jr> …
 389 2012-08-24 07:36:37 <Luke-Jr> how is that supposed to mean it isn't a DoS?
 390 2012-08-24 07:36:57 <fiesh> because a dos typically sends lots of data, over udp packets or plenty SYN tcp packets
 391 2012-08-24 07:37:07 <fiesh> or otherwise tries to exhauste the capacities of the server
 392 2012-08-24 07:37:12 <Luke-Jr> that's ONE kind of DoS.
 393 2012-08-24 07:37:27 <Luke-Jr> yes, and that *could* have been one that exhausts the upstream bandwidth..
 394 2012-08-24 07:37:36 <fiesh> ... and hwo exactly would it do that?
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 396 2012-08-24 07:38:03 <Luke-Jr> if there was a vulnerability that caused Bitcoin-Qt to just send data on a connection nonstop forever
 397 2012-08-24 07:38:32 <fiesh> oh yes, that would be a tremendous bug
 398 2012-08-24 07:38:49 <fiesh> but hardly a dos attack, just having one tcp connection sending data
 399 2012-08-24 07:39:10 <fiesh> any second tcp connection would still have half the bandwidth
 400 2012-08-24 07:39:31 <fiesh> anyhow, good night
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 404 2012-08-24 07:56:41 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: where the 2#$@#@$@#$#@ is your socks patch?
 405 2012-08-24 07:56:56 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I opened this, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1558  and now I don't remeber what its about. (doh)
 406 2012-08-24 07:58:17 RainbowDashh has joined
 407 2012-08-24 08:03:52 <gmaxwell> for extreme fun; for i in {0..1000} ; do echo $i ; ( ./bitcoind listtransactions > /dev/null &) ; done  on 32bit and watch it fall over when you hit 2GB of vm space (or on 64 bit see it hit numbers like 5GB of vm space)
 408 2012-08-24 08:06:58 <iddo> gmaxwell: could you reply in proof-of-stake thread about ECC math-related signing key delegation ?
 409 2012-08-24 08:07:12 <iddo> i thought about it and i don't think it can be done, without linkages in the blockchain
 410 2012-08-24 08:10:22 <iddo> seems like you'd need some wonderful homomorphic OWF f, pk2=f(pk1)=f(sk1 * G)=f(sk1)f(G)
 411 2012-08-24 08:10:44 <iddo> which probably doesnt make since because sk1 is integer and G is point on the curve
 412 2012-08-24 08:11:18 <iddo> and couldn't guarantee that f(G) would have high order
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 414 2012-08-24 08:12:58 <iddo> f needs to be OWF because given the signing key sk2=f(sk1) you shouldnt be able to find sk1
 415 2012-08-24 08:13:28 <iddo> so maybe you meant something else by ECC math-related keys?
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 417 2012-08-24 08:18:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think that was fixed already?
 418 2012-08-24 08:18:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: b19811d5f4140281f99f4eea5e69d9d670f4d549
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 424 2012-08-24 08:34:55 <iddo> gmaxwell: what we'd really want is OWF on integers f, and an efficient function on curve points g, with g(n*G)=f(n)*G
 425 2012-08-24 08:36:05 <iddo> maybe if those functions f,g exist then ECDSA is broken, i don't know
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 427 2012-08-24 08:38:16 <iddo> or the OWF is broken, i don't know
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 431 2012-08-24 08:54:51 <tonikt> sipa: I did not fix boost-win32.yml, just went around the issue by removinf the problemating echo + patch. And I patched the file manually in the archive (the one that you place in the input folder before building boost)
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 475 2012-08-24 11:44:53 <xz> is the bitcoin protocol specified? if so, where?
 476 2012-08-24 11:45:15 <justmoon> xz: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
 477 2012-08-24 11:45:17 <lianj> ;;google bitcoin protocol
 478 2012-08-24 11:45:18 <gribble> Protocol specification - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification>; Protocol rules - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules>; Bitcoin: <https://bitcoin.it/>
 479 2012-08-24 11:45:28 <xz> that page seems incomprehensible to me
 480 2012-08-24 11:45:43 <sipa> it only describes the protocol
 481 2012-08-24 11:45:52 <sipa> i doubt that that is enough to write a functional client
 482 2012-08-24 11:46:23 <sipa> unfortunately, a large part of the specification is "how the reference client behaves"
 483 2012-08-24 11:46:38 <xz> right, ok that's what I suspected, and wanted to make sure
 484 2012-08-24 11:46:51 <xz> has there been much interest in writing a proper specification?
 485 2012-08-24 11:46:58 <lianj> xz: but the links gribble gave are a good start
 486 2012-08-24 11:47:15 <sipa> sounds like a very hard job
 487 2012-08-24 11:47:16 <xz> I would be interested in working on that, (as a prerequisite to happily writing a lightweight client)
 488 2012-08-24 11:48:04 <lianj> better write it after you implemented two clients :)
 489 2012-08-24 11:48:32 <xz> surely someone here has implemented one or two clients..
 490 2012-08-24 11:48:34 <xz> ?
 491 2012-08-24 11:48:47 <xz> perhaps they could be persuaded to work on a protocol specification
 492 2012-08-24 11:49:01 <sipa> i don't think any completely-full client exits except for the reference client
 493 2012-08-24 11:49:05 <sipa> *exists
 494 2012-08-24 11:49:15 <justmoon> sipa: oh this again...
 495 2012-08-24 11:49:16 <sipa> bitcoin-JS is probably closest?
 496 2012-08-24 11:49:38 <lianj> sipa: why are the two wiki pages to bad? the first describes the protocol wire messages, the second the protocol rules to check before accepting a block/tx
 497 2012-08-24 11:49:38 <justmoon> sipa: I guess we need a specification of what constitutes a "full client" :P
 498 2012-08-24 11:50:09 <sipa> justmoon: right, if you're just talking about block validation, purecoin, bitcoin-js, and pynode qualify, i assume
 499 2012-08-24 11:50:27 <justmoon> bitcoinj too now, no? didn't matt implement full verification?
 500 2012-08-24 11:50:30 <xz> lianj: it doesn't define what any of those things mean, for one thing (i.e. the overall framework)
 501 2012-08-24 11:50:35 <sipa> justmoon: oh yes
 502 2012-08-24 11:50:40 <xz> lianj: and a lot of stuff is missing on the wiki pages
 503 2012-08-24 11:50:47 <justmoon> and pretty sure libbitcoin and libcoin have full verification
 504 2012-08-24 11:51:37 <lianj> xz: read the paper and some other wiki pages on there
 505 2012-08-24 11:51:38 <sipa> libcoin certainly, but maybe a bit outdated
 506 2012-08-24 11:51:48 <sipa> libbitcoin no idea, to be honest
 507 2012-08-24 11:52:39 <xz> lianj: I have read the paper and a lot of the wiki. Even if _I_ can come to understand what's going on by a lot of hard work (which probably must include reading the reference cilent's source), it would still be good for there to be a complete easy-to-read specification for any future client implementers
 508 2012-08-24 11:52:47 <justmoon> sipa: libbitcoin has a reimplementation of the script interpreter and amir did want to add the data-driven tests, that much I know
 509 2012-08-24 11:53:20 <sipa> the paper certainly doesn't describe anything operational
 510 2012-08-24 11:53:21 <lianj> xz: true, but its not like undoable right now. some have done it
 511 2012-08-24 11:53:23 <sipa> just some ideas
 512 2012-08-24 11:53:37 <xz> lianj: it's not obvious that they have done anything correctly :P
 513 2012-08-24 11:53:47 <justmoon> xz: I'm two minds about that - when it came to implementing bitcoinjs, the wiki was mostly a false friend - what specification there was, was the stuff that later turned out to be buggy
 514 2012-08-24 11:54:03 <xz> justmoon: what was the friend? the satoshi source?
 515 2012-08-24 11:54:04 <justmoon> the stuff I ported directly from the reference client code is the stuff I've had the least amount of problems with
 516 2012-08-24 11:54:15 <lianj> xz: well, write tests with real network data fixtures etc
 517 2012-08-24 11:54:36 <justmoon> xz: false friend meaning the wiki information seemed helpful, but had errors which ended up costing me more time than it saved
 518 2012-08-24 11:55:05 <xz> justmoon: I know what you meant. I was asking what was a true friend if the wiki was a false one.
 519 2012-08-24 11:55:06 <sipa> especially in things like the block sync mechanism, i think you can easily get non-working code
 520 2012-08-24 11:55:06 <justmoon> so any specification better be absolutely 100% perfect - and like sipa said that's quite hard
 521 2012-08-24 11:55:11 <sipa> it's quite intricate
 522 2012-08-24 11:55:19 <xz> lianj: how do you test when you don't know the expected behaviour?
 523 2012-08-24 11:55:30 <justmoon> xz: yeah the reference client was a true friend, especially their unit tests
 524 2012-08-24 11:55:34 <xz> justmoon: the specification should become normative
 525 2012-08-24 11:55:53 <justmoon> in the bitcoin network the majority of miners is normative in a sense
 526 2012-08-24 11:56:02 <sipa> depends for what
 527 2012-08-24 11:56:06 <justmoon> yeah
 528 2012-08-24 11:56:07 <sipa> for some things, every full node is
 529 2012-08-24 11:56:14 <sipa> for others, just miners
 530 2012-08-24 11:56:25 <justmoon> but I mean you can write a normative specification, but that won't mean much if clients don't behave that way
 531 2012-08-24 11:56:37 <xz> is it possible for there to be a parallel independent bitcoin network?
 532 2012-08-24 11:56:41 <justmoon> sure
 533 2012-08-24 11:56:47 <xz> do they exist?
 534 2012-08-24 11:56:52 <sipa> there is a test network
 535 2012-08-24 11:56:57 <sipa> there are some forks "altcoins"
 536 2012-08-24 11:56:59 <justmoon> there are a few forks also, like litecoin
 537 2012-08-24 11:57:34 <sipa> if you write a specification that deviates from how the reference nodes behave in a subtle way, you may end up with a split network at some point
 538 2012-08-24 11:57:35 <xz> is there much provision in existing clients for knowing what protocol version they are using and switching to upgraded protocol?
 539 2012-08-24 11:58:02 <sipa> xz: not sure what you mean
 540 2012-08-24 11:58:03 <xz> "reference node" = node using satoshi client?
 541 2012-08-24 11:58:06 <sipa> yes
 542 2012-08-24 11:58:22 <xz> what if the majority of nodes one day were not using that client?
 543 2012-08-24 11:58:38 <justmoon> that's when things get interesting ^^
 544 2012-08-24 11:58:38 <sipa> depends on what kind of change we're talking
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 546 2012-08-24 11:58:55 <sipa> but in the worst case, it's still a permanent split
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 550 2012-08-24 11:59:29 <xz> so this is basically a popularity contest, and you bet your coins on being in the network everyone will end up in
 551 2012-08-24 12:00:06 <justmoon> yes, like any standard that is a strong incentive for spontaneous agreement
 552 2012-08-24 12:00:07 <sipa> in general: there is a permanent split when two code versions disagree about the validity of a block, and the majority of the miners is on the code with weaker rules
 553 2012-08-24 12:00:12 <justmoon> there* is
 554 2012-08-24 12:00:39 <justmoon> there would be little point in me making a non-compatible client, unless I wanted to create an altcoin
 555 2012-08-24 12:00:51 <xz> sipa: you mean the majority of miners say the block is valid?
 556 2012-08-24 12:01:23 <sipa> xz: well there will be one specific blocks where the majority of miners agree about, and a minority disagrees
 557 2012-08-24 12:01:32 <xz> well I would want to make a client that implements the specification (which currently doesn't exist), and to write the specification so that it is as faithful to the satoshi client as possible without comprimising clarity too much
 558 2012-08-24 12:01:46 <sipa> xz: please do
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 561 2012-08-24 12:02:01 <sipa> but i doubt it's an easy task
 562 2012-08-24 12:02:09 <lianj> xz: again, gribbles like are no bad start
 563 2012-08-24 12:02:13 <xz> what would be so difficult?
 564 2012-08-24 12:02:16 <xz> I mean
 565 2012-08-24 12:02:20 <justmoon> I still thing out best bet are more and better test cases, but I certainly applaud anyone willing to take on the task of writing a spec
 566 2012-08-24 12:02:24 <justmoon> thnk*
 567 2012-08-24 12:02:25 <xz> I agree it's not going to be easy, intuitively
 568 2012-08-24 12:02:26 <justmoon> think*
 569 2012-08-24 12:02:34 <xz> but what specifically do you think is going to be the hard stuff
 570 2012-08-24 12:03:00 <justmoon> openssl's encoding of big integers would have to be part of the standard
 571 2012-08-24 12:03:09 <justmoon> it's way of doing big integer math (how it's rounding etc.)
 572 2012-08-24 12:03:16 <xz> isn't that already standardised?
 573 2012-08-24 12:03:38 <justmoon> well the openssl code specifies it
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 575 2012-08-24 12:03:54 <sipa> xz: currently, signatures in transactions are encoded in DER, but openssl accepts more than just the DER specification
 576 2012-08-24 12:03:55 <justmoon> if you use libgmp, you get different and incompatible behavior
 577 2012-08-24 12:04:00 <xz> ssl and tsl are specified, I thought
 578 2012-08-24 12:04:08 <sipa> we don't use SSL or TLS
 579 2012-08-24 12:04:09 <justmoon> sipa: DER is standardized though
 580 2012-08-24 12:04:15 <xz> right ok
 581 2012-08-24 12:04:15 <sipa> justmoon: absolutely
 582 2012-08-24 12:04:18 <sipa> very strictly
 583 2012-08-24 12:04:22 <justmoon> sipa; which is more than you can say about the big integer stuff
 584 2012-08-24 12:04:30 <sipa> really?
 585 2012-08-24 12:04:47 <sipa> can you give an example of something that differs between implementations?
 586 2012-08-24 12:04:53 <sipa> (just curious)
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 588 2012-08-24 12:05:11 <xz> so the bitcoin spec could just say that you have to use der as already specified
 589 2012-08-24 12:05:14 <justmoon> yes, division with negative integers differs between gmp and openssl
 590 2012-08-24 12:05:19 <justmoon> one rounds towards zero
 591 2012-08-24 12:05:23 <justmoon> the other towards neg infinity
 592 2012-08-24 12:05:33 <sipa> but i don't think bitcoin every uses negative integers?
 593 2012-08-24 12:05:34 <xz> does bitcoin make necessary use of the extra stuff openssl accepts?
 594 2012-08-24 12:05:55 <justmoon> sipa: certainly it does :D
 595 2012-08-24 12:06:10 <sipa> justmoon: negative *big* integers
 596 2012-08-24 12:06:12 <sipa> where?
 597 2012-08-24 12:06:29 <sipa> oh, i suppose inside scripts it's possible to use them
 598 2012-08-24 12:06:37 <justmoon> well OP_1 OP_5 OP_SUB for example
 599 2012-08-24 12:06:47 <justmoon> OP_5 OP_NEGATE
 600 2012-08-24 12:06:52 <xz> supposing more than one person might be interested in a specification (do you think so?), do there exist any good places (e.g. mailing list) to have this discussion and get started on it?
 601 2012-08-24 12:06:57 <justmoon> there are demo transactions on testnet
 602 2012-08-24 12:07:14 <justmoon> or at least there were on the old testnet
 603 2012-08-24 12:07:24 <justmoon> that how I found the bug in the first place
 604 2012-08-24 12:07:28 <sipa> testnet3 is "preloaded" with tons of special transactions
 605 2012-08-24 12:07:54 <justmoon> yeah, I'm pretty sure there are test cases in the data driven tests too
 606 2012-08-24 12:07:58 <justmoon> that would detect this difference
 607 2012-08-24 12:08:14 <sipa> xz: there have been some attempts at an "explaining" some parts of the protocol by someone who was quite thorough at it
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 609 2012-08-24 12:08:36 <sipa> see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41718.0
 610 2012-08-24 12:09:17 <xz> sipa: thanks that looks quite useful
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 613 2012-08-24 12:12:07 <xz> is there a high-level overview (perhaps slightly more detailed than the paper) anywhere?
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 615 2012-08-24 12:13:08 <sipa> overview of what?
 616 2012-08-24 12:13:20 <xz> bitcoin protocol and network
 617 2012-08-24 12:13:58 <xz> I feel like there's also room to take the basic cryptocurrency idea and do it better
 618 2012-08-24 12:13:58 <sipa> not really, i think, but you're certainly free to ask questions here
 619 2012-08-24 12:14:23 <xz> (where better basically means good documentation from the start :))
 620 2012-08-24 12:14:59 <xz> (which might require changing/simplifying the protocol in some cases)
 621 2012-08-24 12:15:05 <sipa> if you just describe the protocol (p2p messages, encoding rules, interpretation of values, ...), you don't necessary have touched things like how a node's idea of the current best chain is determined
 622 2012-08-24 12:15:48 <xz> but the latter information is necessary to explain how the network implements a currency, right?
 623 2012-08-24 12:15:55 <sipa> sure, it's crucial
 624 2012-08-24 12:16:10 <xz> so, what I really mean is an overview that includes that as well
 625 2012-08-24 12:16:15 <sipa> agree
 626 2012-08-24 12:16:52 <xz> the idea is to explain what a currency is, from this limited perspective, and how it is implemented, so that someone who wants to participate can be confident in what's going on, and someone who wants to write a client can do so with ease
 627 2012-08-24 12:16:53 <lianj> but you need to start somewhere. to implementing the p2p messages etc is a good and not so hard start
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 630 2012-08-24 12:17:59 <xz> if a new network used the same proofs-of-work, could existing bitcoin miners reuse their coins cheaply there?
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 632 2012-08-24 12:18:20 <xz> because they'd have done the work already (presuming they kept the hashes or whatever around)
 633 2012-08-24 12:18:39 <sipa> no, because the data being hashes will almost certainly be different
 634 2012-08-24 12:18:53 <xz> i mean the coins at the start of chains, though
 635 2012-08-24 12:19:01 <xz> the original proofs of work
 636 2012-08-24 12:19:18 <sipa> what you hash in the proof of work, is a block header
 637 2012-08-24 12:19:35 <sipa> this block header depends on the hash of the previous block in the chain
 638 2012-08-24 12:19:44 <xz> what about the start of the chain?
 639 2012-08-24 12:19:53 <sipa> you mean the genesis block?
 640 2012-08-24 12:20:00 <xz> is there only one genesis block?
 641 2012-08-24 12:20:02 <sipa> yes
 642 2012-08-24 12:20:06 <xz> so it's a dag?
 643 2012-08-24 12:20:09 <sipa> no
 644 2012-08-24 12:20:19 <t7> whats a dag?
 645 2012-08-24 12:20:21 <sipa> blocks form a tree
 646 2012-08-24 12:20:23 <xz> directed acyclic graph
 647 2012-08-24 12:20:24 <lianj> one for every network (mainnet,testnet,testnet3,namecoin)
 648 2012-08-24 12:20:28 <xz> fair enough - every tree is a dag :)
 649 2012-08-24 12:20:46 <sipa> and there is one path through the tree which is 'active'
 650 2012-08-24 12:20:50 <xz> so even newly mined coins depend on the genesis block
 651 2012-08-24 12:20:52 <t7> i sometimes wonder why its a 'block chain' not a 'block tree'
 652 2012-08-24 12:21:07 <sipa> t7: it is a block tree
 653 2012-08-24 12:21:16 <sipa> just the active part of the tree is a chain
 654 2012-08-24 12:21:20 <xz> the active path is th elongest path?
 655 2012-08-24 12:21:38 <t7> i have never seem someone write block tree
 656 2012-08-24 12:21:51 <xz> so if there are two equally long paths, there is a race to see which one will be active next? (and there are temporarily multiple active paths)...?
 657 2012-08-24 12:21:52 <sipa> t7: check the source code :)
 658 2012-08-24 12:22:03 <sipa> xz: the path with the most PoW in it, consisting purely of blocks which are valid, is considered active
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 660 2012-08-24 12:22:27 <xz> sipa: might it also contain invalid blocks?
 661 2012-08-24 12:23:11 <xz> my question about the race still stands, if you substitute "length" for "number of active blocks"
 662 2012-08-24 12:23:12 <sipa> since no miner will accept any invalid block, noone will build upon one, and it should very quickly become the non-best chain if it's invalid
 663 2012-08-24 12:23:32 <sipa> the total PoW is much more precise than just number of active blocks
 664 2012-08-24 12:23:43 <xz> but is it guaranteed that the active chain doesn't contain invalid blocks?
 665 2012-08-24 12:23:44 <sipa> it takes into account how hard it was to create every block
 666 2012-08-24 12:23:49 <xz> fair enough
 667 2012-08-24 12:23:59 <sipa> by definition, no full node will every accept an invalid block
 668 2012-08-24 12:24:02 <xz> substitute length for amount of pow then :)
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 670 2012-08-24 12:24:16 <sipa> so, according to any full node, no invalid block will ever be in its idea of the active chain
 671 2012-08-24 12:24:37 <sipa> SPV nodes however may be tricked into (temporarily) thinking an invalid block is the current best
 672 2012-08-24 12:25:10 <sipa> and there can be a draw - where there are two tips that have the same amount of PoW behind them - in which case nodes consider the first one they saw to be active
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 674 2012-08-24 12:26:56 <xz> is it reasonable to think of there being a "real" tree somewhere, and nodes all try to get a picture of it and simultaneously maintain it? or is it better to be more precise and only talk about each node's tree? hmm they use p2p to try to sustain the same picture by all nodes...
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 678 2012-08-24 12:27:15 <sipa> well certainly not every node will have the same idea of the tree
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 680 2012-08-24 12:27:38 <sipa> some side-branches may be missing
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 682 2012-08-24 12:28:21 <xz> but can the tree be defined solely in terms of all nodes' local trees (i.e. local views of "the tree")?
 683 2012-08-24 12:29:02 <xz> another way to ask this: is there a canonical reference for what the tree really is?
 684 2012-08-24 12:29:08 <xz> like some priviliged node
 685 2012-08-24 12:30:06 <sipa> i think i'd start by explaining transactions (txins, txouts, ECDSA signatures) first, then blocks (merkle tree, block header, PoW), then the block tree (blocks whose ancestry is known to the genesis), then how a best chain in the tree is maintained (best proof of work), then how that chain defines the unspent-txout-set, then how that set is updated as blocks are added and removed from the current active chain
 686 2012-08-24 12:30:46 <sipa> at that point, i think you can move to the P2P protocol to explain the mechanisms for synchronising block and tx data, and mention the memory pool
 687 2012-08-24 12:31:01 <xz> cool!
 688 2012-08-24 12:31:16 <xz> on irc or do you want to write it up elsewhere first then link?
 689 2012-08-24 12:31:19 <sipa> then maybe something about mining, which uses the block chain tip + the memory pool to build a new block, letting miner code iterate through many nonces
 690 2012-08-24 12:31:33 <sipa> i have logs :)
 691 2012-08-24 12:32:09 <xz> i know there are logs, but irc might not be the best medium for writing this - what about an etherpad-like thing, so we can go back and edit things?
 692 2012-08-24 12:32:25 <sipa> and at that point, you may be ready to start explaining how a wallet works
 693 2012-08-24 12:32:27 <xz> (also I need to leave soon, but I really want that explanation plan you wrote above to be carried out over time :))
 694 2012-08-24 12:33:09 <xz> alternatively if you're happy to talk to the void, just start by explaining transactions and proceed...
 695 2012-08-24 12:33:18 <xz> (the void = the logs)
 696 2012-08-24 12:33:30 <sipa> haha, i'm not going to explain every single detail now
 697 2012-08-24 12:34:07 <xz> ok well make a start here http://piratepad.net/e931wLGDJE
 698 2012-08-24 12:34:11 <sipa> but i don't mind someone trying to make a nice write-up of a summary, and explain unclarities
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 702 2012-08-24 12:35:25 <xz> I've started the summary at that link
 703 2012-08-24 12:35:35 <xz> but I need you to at least start filling in some bits - you don't have to do it right now
 704 2012-08-24 12:35:40 <xz> but soon hopefully
 705 2012-08-24 12:38:07 <xz> can you see it?
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 750 2012-08-24 14:08:54 Clipse has joined
 751 2012-08-24 14:21:33 zapsoda has joined
 752 2012-08-24 14:21:42 <zapsoda> Wanna make your Bitcoins piece of history? Spend some of them at ThousandBitcoins.com to buy advertising slots from the 100*100 slot map or do what ever you like with your slots!
 753 2012-08-24 14:21:51 <zapsoda> Sorry wrong channel for that ^
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 760 2012-08-24 14:31:59 <upb> lol
 761 2012-08-24 14:32:08 <upb> stealing an idea ?:P
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 764 2012-08-24 14:38:45 <lianj> oO
 765 2012-08-24 14:40:15 <zapsoda> upb, what do you mean?
 766 2012-08-24 14:42:58 <lianj> http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/ ?
 767 2012-08-24 14:43:55 <zapsoda> Thats not for BTC
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 773 2012-08-24 14:52:11 <chmod755> http://www.forbes.com/sites/abegarver/2012/08/24/bitcoin-mastercard-everywhere-you-shouldnt-be/ << yay
 774 2012-08-24 15:00:00 roconnor has joined
 775 2012-08-24 15:03:01 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: huh? it was like a one line change? it was merged before .7?
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 777 2012-08-24 15:04:52 <sipa> jrmithdobbs, gmaxwell: indeed, fixed already
 778 2012-08-24 15:04:59 <sipa> i closed the issue
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 784 2012-08-24 15:16:07 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: yea, explains why I swapped out that knoweldge. :)
 785 2012-08-24 15:16:17 <gmaxwell> I just saw the longering issue.
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 791 2012-08-24 15:25:56 <jgarzik> <stretch>
 792 2012-08-24 15:26:08 <jgarzik> typical day!  wake up, delete all Bitcoin-Qt-related emails, continue
 793 2012-08-24 15:26:43 <jgarzik> and BitcoinPullTester emails
 794 2012-08-24 15:26:54 <jgarzik> I like the pull tester commenting, but dislike all the email spam
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 796 2012-08-24 15:30:00 <gmaxwell> I also dislike that it bumps the order-by-updated. It's worth it, but a bit unfortunate.
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 798 2012-08-24 15:33:36 <jgarzik> indeed
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 804 2012-08-24 15:59:01 <jgarzik> hrm, still some bugs in pynode's chain reorg, I think.  node got stuck last night.  re-downloading chain (including full script verf, whee!) worked just fine.
 805 2012-08-24 16:00:12 <lianj> jgarzik: but pynode doesnt check the protocol rules for blocks and tx before storing it right?
 806 2012-08-24 16:00:40 <jgarzik> lianj: yes
 807 2012-08-24 16:00:45 <gmaxwell> it would be interesting to have a test rig that causes all possible reorgs for a sent of blocks that contains forks.
 808 2012-08-24 16:00:56 <jgarzik> lianj: er
 809 2012-08-24 16:01:08 <jgarzik> lianj: to be clear, pynode DOES check the protocol rules for blocks and tx before storing it
 810 2012-08-24 16:01:12 <jgarzik> just like bitcoin
 811 2012-08-24 16:01:20 <lianj> can you point me to the code?
 812 2012-08-24 16:01:33 <gmaxwell> (and for each possiblity it eventually reorgs onto the real chain, and then computes a hash of the txout set at the end, to make sure all paths give the same result)
 813 2012-08-24 16:01:34 <jgarzik> lianj: https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode
 814 2012-08-24 16:01:50 <lianj> jgarzik: no, the lines that follow https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
 815 2012-08-24 16:02:07 <jgarzik> lianj: it's spread all over, just like with bitcoin
 816 2012-08-24 16:02:18 <jgarzik> lianj: ChainDb.py and node.py are the main ones
 817 2012-08-24 16:02:38 <jgarzik> but bitcoin/script*.py has the script rules, etc.
 818 2012-08-24 16:02:56 <lianj> i read them, didnt see much of the steps checked
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 820 2012-08-24 16:04:03 <jgarzik> lianj: they're there, or don't apply (e.g. pynode does not have a wallet)
 821 2012-08-24 16:06:30 <jgarzik> for the purposes of last night's failure, though, that does not matter.  pynode is behind a trusted node here, so I know the data sent is good.
 822 2012-08-24 16:06:44 <jgarzik> helps to isolate bugs
 823 2012-08-24 16:09:05 <lianj> in putoneblock i dont see the steps checked from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#.22block.22_messages for example
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 825 2012-08-24 16:14:35 <lianj> sounds like im bitching, sorry. but it is doing full script verification but not full block/tx verification/validation
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 833 2012-08-24 16:26:06 <jgarzik> lianj: that's because not all those steps are in putoneblock(), as stated earlier.  some are in connect-block logic, some are in CTransaction object logic, some are in CBlock object logic, etc.
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 835 2012-08-24 16:26:52 <jgarzik> lianj: if you have a specific step in that list you're interested in finding, name a number
 836 2012-08-24 16:27:01 <jgarzik> lianj: for example, the merkle tree checks are in CBlock
 837 2012-08-24 16:27:15 <lianj> 13 Reject if timestamp is before the median time of the last 11 blocks
 838 2012-08-24 16:27:25 <jgarzik> not implemented
 839 2012-08-24 16:27:26 <lianj> 6 First transaction must be coinbase
 840 2012-08-24 16:27:37 <jgarzik> that's checked... somewhere
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 843 2012-08-24 16:28:25 <Abcdef> hi, is it possible send bitcoins to an address but the coins will only be sent if the receiver prove have the private key?
 844 2012-08-24 16:28:36 <lianj> hehe im just saying it would be really nice if it was checked at one place and throws/log a nice exception in case one step fails etc. also it makes it easier to really say 'we do all the checks'
 845 2012-08-24 16:29:34 <Abcdef> i wouldn't like someone send me coins to an address that i don't own anymore
 846 2012-08-24 16:29:52 <jgarzik> lianj: <shrug> that's not realistic for software that wants to be performant.  not even the reference client or bitcoinj "has all the checks in one place"
 847 2012-08-24 16:29:53 <Abcdef> resulting in lost money
 848 2012-08-24 16:30:14 <jgarzik> some are in script.h, some are in script.cpp, some are in main.h, some are in main.cpp, ...
 849 2012-08-24 16:30:59 <lianj> ok then how to make sure pynode got them all?
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 852 2012-08-24 16:34:36 <lianj> jgarzik: we have them all in one place. block/tx rules that is. script verification ofcourse is another topic/part
 853 2012-08-24 16:35:14 <jgarzik> lianj: easy counter-example: some tx rules are in script.cpp
 854 2012-08-24 16:35:28 <jgarzik> sigop checks and isstandard check bits
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 856 2012-08-24 16:36:35 <Luke-Jr> is it just me, or is the code for handling commandline arg URIs duplicated in src/qt/bitcoin.cpp?
 857 2012-08-24 16:36:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: BlueMatt: ^
 858 2012-08-24 16:36:51 <lianj> jgarzik: ight, but why not do script.is_standard? and script.sigop_count in your tx rules checking method
 859 2012-08-24 16:37:09 <lianj> s/do/call/
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 862 2012-08-24 16:37:39 <jgarzik> lianj: the conversation heads off into the Land of Taste, from there...
 863 2012-08-24 16:37:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: shouldn't that be the only place?
 864 2012-08-24 16:38:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, it's there twice it seems: once at the very start of main() then again later
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 867 2012-08-24 16:39:02 <lianj> jgarzik: not really, its just a land of easily see if you got all the checks implemented
 868 2012-08-24 16:39:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: wtf
 869 2012-08-24 16:39:22 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: seems you're right... I don't understand the second one
 870 2012-08-24 16:39:59 <jgarzik> lianj: vs. performant and well-organized code
 871 2012-08-24 16:40:02 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: hm I vaguely understand it
 872 2012-08-24 16:40:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the second is to handle URLs that come in when the instance just started
 873 2012-08-24 16:40:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: don't ask me why they're sent through the interprocess queue though :-)
 874 2012-08-24 16:40:33 <jgarzik> All In One Place is organized for human reviewing, not engineering efficiency
 875 2012-08-24 16:41:33 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: hmm, makes sense
 876 2012-08-24 16:43:32 <gmaxwell> Abcdef: just give him the transaction instead of broadcasting it directly. He can broadcast it if he can spend it, otherwise he can ask you to try again.
 877 2012-08-24 16:44:59 <Abcdef> and how i create a transaction without broadcast it?
 878 2012-08-24 16:46:14 <lianj> jgarzik: ok i rest my case. however here is a snipped testsuite output of ours https://pastee.org/56fzc  when for example 13. wasnt implemented it would show up there as pending and crying for someone to make it green. helped us to not forget steps
 879 2012-08-24 16:48:12 <gmaxwell> Abcdef: in bitcoin git (soon to be 0.7rc1) you can use the createtrawtransaction / signrawtransaction commands.
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 882 2012-08-24 16:49:13 <Abcdef> gmaxwell: i'm just a newbie user. will wait a gui for it
 883 2012-08-24 16:50:08 <Abcdef> gmaxwell: so i'll be able to create a link and send to a friend email and he get the coins?
 884 2012-08-24 16:51:04 <gmaxwell> Abcdef: in the future, yes, right now there is no nice interface for it.
 885 2012-08-24 16:51:15 <Abcdef> thanks
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 887 2012-08-24 16:53:04 <Abcdef> gmaxwell: will be possible to specify how much days wait for him to take the coins?
 888 2012-08-24 16:53:29 <Abcdef> if he not take the coins this goes back to me
 889 2012-08-24 16:54:02 <Abcdef> if yes, will be really amazing
 890 2012-08-24 16:54:45 <sipa> Abcdef: if you send him coins, and he doesn't use them, (theoretically) you can just spend the inputs from under him
 891 2012-08-24 16:54:58 <sipa> rendering the transaction you sent him invalid
 892 2012-08-24 16:56:52 <Abcdef> ok sipa
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 907 2012-08-24 17:35:36 <gavinandresen> anybody else getting malloc errors in test_bitcoin with git HEAD?  :  test_bitcoin(5573,0xa00a4540) malloc: *** error for object 0xa0c24dbc: pointer being freed was not allocated
 908 2012-08-24 17:36:12 <gavinandresen> wait, hang on... make clean fixed it
 909 2012-08-24 17:36:27 <gmaxwell> I didn't as of about 11 hours ago.
 910 2012-08-24 17:36:42 <gavinandresen> mmmm.  Wonder if make dependencies got broken....
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 922 2012-08-24 17:58:56 <sebicas>  /msg jgarzik
 923 2012-08-24 17:59:15 <sebicas> jgarzik: Hi, just sent you some pull requests..
 924 2012-08-24 17:59:51 <sebicas> jgarzik: Sorry if I keep adding stuff.. are you ok with the changes so far?
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 947 2012-08-24 18:34:48 <BlueMatt> ignore this:
 948 2012-08-24 18:34:51 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #33: ABORTED in 3 hr 40 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/33/
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 958 2012-08-24 18:56:01 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
 959 2012-08-24 18:56:02 <gribble> 195509
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 963 2012-08-24 19:13:58 <gmaxwell> I think I might have just convinced etotheipi to make armory work as an RPC wallet.
 964 2012-08-24 19:14:50 <midnightmagic> yay
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 966 2012-08-24 19:17:10 <BlueMatt> ignore this:
 967 2012-08-24 19:17:12 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #34: ABORTED in 37 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/34/
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 978 2012-08-24 19:50:10 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #35: ABORTED in 32 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/35/
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 982 2012-08-24 19:53:20 <hasenj> I used to have bitcoint on my ubuntu
 983 2012-08-24 19:53:29 <hasenj> I took a backup of the .bitcoin folder from my home directory
 984 2012-08-24 19:53:32 <hasenj> now I'm on a mac
 985 2012-08-24 19:53:42 <hasenj> how can I access the coins in that wallet?
 986 2012-08-24 19:54:17 <hasenj> or can I run a command line client and point it to that wallet? then use it transfer the coins to my osx wallet?
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 988 2012-08-24 19:56:25 <enquirer> is there a way to associate a SSN with an address?
 989 2012-08-24 19:56:45 <copumpkin> wat
 990 2012-08-24 19:56:59 <enquirer> could be basis  of the bitcoin that gov would love )
 991 2012-08-24 19:58:11 <hasenj> why would you want to do that?
 992 2012-08-24 19:58:46 <enquirer> the gov will embrace bitcoin that way
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 994 2012-08-24 20:00:06 <enquirer> in fact you an just register this in some outside db
 995 2012-08-24 20:00:18 <BlueMatt> enquirer: yea, you just query the central user database for the ssn, easy as pie
 996 2012-08-24 20:02:45 <Eliel> I toyed around for a moment pondering about making a vanity address for myself with my SSN in it but decided it's not really useful for anything :P
 997 2012-08-24 20:02:53 <enquirer> yeah, you want your btc clean - go to gov office, show id and receive registered address
 998 2012-08-24 20:04:05 <BlueMatt> enquirer: no, we already have a db of address->ssns, you dont need to change anything
 999 2012-08-24 20:04:35 <enquirer> really? where is that
1000 2012-08-24 20:04:47 <BlueMatt> its the central user db
1001 2012-08-24 20:05:22 <justmoon> yeah when you install bitcoin it reads out your ssn to generate the keys - bitcoin is an anagram for giant drug honeypot
1002 2012-08-24 20:05:49 <enquirer> you can joke but i think its the way to legitimacy
1003 2012-08-24 20:06:28 <enquirer> some people love anonimity, some quite the opposite ...
1004 2012-08-24 20:06:37 Clipse has joined
1005 2012-08-24 20:06:44 <justmoon> enquirer: if you want a bitcoin address that has your real identity attached, get a mtgox account
1006 2012-08-24 20:06:46 <Luke-Jr> enquirer: how do you propose it be done, considering that: 1) nobody but the IRS or employer is allowed to know your SSN; 2) every transaction uses a new address
1007 2012-08-24 20:06:48 <Luke-Jr> ?
1008 2012-08-24 20:07:50 <enquirer> well only gov that gave you the address knows thye association
1009 2012-08-24 20:08:00 <enquirer> same as bank account
1010 2012-08-24 20:08:30 <enquirer> your bank must know your ssn too
1011 2012-08-24 20:08:51 <Luke-Jr> no, just photo id
1012 2012-08-24 20:09:31 <enquirer> i guess you opened your bank account before 9/2001 )
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1015 2012-08-24 20:11:55 <Eliel> in Finland the use of SSNs is a bit more widespread. my mobile operator has it, my bank has it, my insurance company has it ... probably some more companies to list in addition to this still that I forget right now.
1016 2012-08-24 20:13:56 <midnightmagic> Same in Canada.
1017 2012-08-24 20:14:06 <midnightmagic> A lot of people and companies demand it when they have no right to.
1018 2012-08-24 20:14:32 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: Finland uses (US) SSNs?
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1020 2012-08-24 20:16:21 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: we've had an SSN system for decades.
1021 2012-08-24 20:16:43 <Eliel> everyone gets one assigned at birth.
1022 2012-08-24 20:18:13 <midnightmagic> We call them Social Insurance Numbers
1023 2012-08-24 20:18:15 <midnightmagic> SINs
1024 2012-08-24 20:18:38 <midnightmagic> Assigned at birth, and the province of birth is encoded in it by convention.
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1028 2012-08-24 20:26:10 <BlueMatt> in other news, pull-tester is now testing each pull using a test chain of 53 blocks (incl reorgs and testing most of the ways a block can be invalid, though not really any direct script tests)
1029 2012-08-24 20:27:06 <gmaxwell> Hurrah.
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1031 2012-08-24 20:27:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: is that via bitcoin-test or are you running bitcoind?
1032 2012-08-24 20:27:49 <BlueMatt> bitcoind + bitcoinj
1033 2012-08-24 20:27:51 <BlueMatt> see http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/FullBlockTestGenerator.java
1034 2012-08-24 20:28:12 <gmaxwell> oh thats a neat idea.
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1036 2012-08-24 20:29:00 <BlueMatt> actually wrote it originally to check my bitcoinj validation updates, but it works pretty well to check bitcoind too
1037 2012-08-24 20:29:00 <gmaxwell> I wonder if it would be useful for testing to have a hidden rpc to force a reorg into a specific block.
1038 2012-08-24 20:29:19 <gmaxwell> E.g. so you could teach it  [block 5a] [block 5b]  force reorg to 5b then back to 5a.
1039 2012-08-24 20:29:38 <BlueMatt> meh, easy enough to do by feeding specific blocks
1040 2012-08-24 20:30:26 <gmaxwell> you can't do what I just described. (make it go to 5b after it learned 5a)
1041 2012-08-24 20:30:33 <gmaxwell> Mostly I'm thinking about how we'll test ultraprune.
1042 2012-08-24 20:30:59 <gmaxwell> I'd like to clock every possible reorg with the blocks we can get through ultraprune and make sure each path reaches the same final state.
1043 2012-08-24 20:31:06 <BlueMatt> well, youd have to extend the chains on either side, but its not a huge difference to do that vs just reorg to that specific block
1044 2012-08-24 20:31:25 <BlueMatt> oh
1045 2012-08-24 20:31:59 bitzero has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1046 2012-08-24 20:32:09 <BlueMatt> well you can still test a ton of different reorg scenarios just with sending a specific block order
1047 2012-08-24 20:32:14 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1048 2012-08-24 20:32:17 <BlueMatt> s/a ton of/most/
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1050 2012-08-24 20:33:01 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: but are Finland's "SSN" equivalent strictly confidential? :p
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1054 2012-08-24 20:37:40 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: I'm not sure what the law says of this but most businesses don't ask for them. Makes me think twice if a random company asks for it.
1055 2012-08-24 20:38:19 <gmaxwell> TD: Do you have any objections on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1718 ? (see the issue if you need some justification)
1056 2012-08-24 20:40:45 <justmoon> BlueMatt: is it possible to turn the thusly generated chain into a data-driven test by exporting it as binary?
1057 2012-08-24 20:41:07 <BlueMatt> justmoon: I would like to do that eventually, yes
1058 2012-08-24 20:41:27 <BlueMatt> justmoon: but Id first like to get way more blocks in there, and then get it mined so it doesnt require patching to change the mindiff
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1060 2012-08-24 20:42:06 <justmoon> BlueMatt: I see, very cool
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1062 2012-08-24 20:43:07 <BlueMatt> justmoon: if you want to use it as-is now to test bitcoinjs, look at http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/ just apply the equivalent patch and then run the jar
1063 2012-08-24 20:45:18 <justmoon> I just connects via bitcoin protocol? localhost:8333?
1064 2012-08-24 20:45:23 <BlueMatt> yep
1065 2012-08-24 20:45:41 mortikia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1066 2012-08-24 20:45:45 <BlueMatt> (and make sure you dont ban it for dos, because it does lots of that ;) 0
1067 2012-08-24 20:46:04 <justmoon> haha, don't worry, bitcoinjs has next to no dos protection rules xD
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1070 2012-08-24 20:53:56 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: re: updating to boost 1.50, meh...thats what rc phase is for, we've never given much non-triviality to updating boost before
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1072 2012-08-24 20:55:39 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: if you want it, probably best to just do it at this point and hope it's pulled in time
1073 2012-08-24 20:56:22 <justmoon> ok, patched bitcoinjs, now I'm gonna try and get this tester to run
1074 2012-08-24 20:56:57 <BlueMatt> (ignore all the various exception messages, just look at the last line)
1075 2012-08-24 20:57:21 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: would be nice if you did so on top of my pullreq tho, so they don't end up conflicting
1076 2012-08-24 20:57:24 <justmoon> well it won't pass, just trying to see how far it gets
1077 2012-08-24 20:57:40 <BlueMatt> justmoon: oh, and make sure the return code is right, I think i got it to return 1 on any errors, but Im not 100% sure
1078 2012-08-24 20:58:00 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: the idea would be that if we upgrade to 1.5, we wont need that mess
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1081 2012-08-24 20:58:11 <BlueMatt> either in patch form or in headers
1082 2012-08-24 20:58:24 <BlueMatt> wait...wtf is the rest of this stuff?
1083 2012-08-24 20:58:43 <BlueMatt> oh, you moved the ipc scan stuff, alright, well thats unrelated but ack
1084 2012-08-24 20:58:56 <justmoon> BlueMatt: hmm: http://pastebin.com/xRxreLdd
1085 2012-08-24 20:59:21 <justmoon> bitcoinjs is sending getblocks but the tester doesn't understand it?
1086 2012-08-24 20:59:30 <BlueMatt> oh, it doesnt expect getblocks when it has no blocks in the version message
1087 2012-08-24 20:59:30 <BlueMatt> yea
1088 2012-08-24 20:59:35 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: just because official builds use 1.50 (1.5 is old!) doesn't mean we shouldn't support 1.49 with a mere 6 lines that don't make conflicts IMO
1089 2012-08-24 20:59:38 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj doesnt know how to handle getblocks yet
1090 2012-08-24 21:00:13 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: Id rather put a #warning or #error in than putting in code we will never maintain
1091 2012-08-24 21:00:33 eb3kk is now known as matthew_imrich
1092 2012-08-24 21:00:35 <BlueMatt> (unless you can show me a distro shipping 1.49 boost for win32 right now)
1093 2012-08-24 21:01:00 <BlueMatt> justmoon: it just sends blocks absent any getblocks or invs
1094 2012-08-24 21:01:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: Gentoo testing? :P
1095 2012-08-24 21:01:23 <BlueMatt> it ships boost-mingw 1.49?
1096 2012-08-24 21:01:40 <justmoon> hmm it sent one block which bitcoinjs accepted and that's it so far
1097 2012-08-24 21:01:52 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: more or less; mingw isn't special on Gentoo
1098 2012-08-24 21:02:01 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I can just i686-pc-mingw32-emerge anything
1099 2012-08-24 21:02:03 <BlueMatt> justmoon: thats odd, its pretty quick for the first ~30 blocks
1100 2012-08-24 21:02:05 <justmoon> BlueMatt: maybe because bitcoinjs didn't respond to the getblocks it sent?
1101 2012-08-24 21:02:26 <BlueMatt> justmoon: no, it just uses the getblocks to make sure bitcoind doesnt have any blocks already
1102 2012-08-24 21:02:31 <BlueMatt> should be safe to ignore that
1103 2012-08-24 21:02:50 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: hmm...are they updating to 1.50 soon?
1104 2012-08-24 21:03:03 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: it's not even in testing
1105 2012-08-24 21:03:09 <BlueMatt> arg
1106 2012-08-24 21:03:25 <Luke-Jr> though packages exist, so maybe there's a plan
1107 2012-08-24 21:03:29 <justmoon> BlueMatt: well it does seem to be waiting for *something* - it sent one block and now it's sitting here with 0 cpu usage
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1109 2012-08-24 21:03:33 <BlueMatt> justmoon: btw, its running this: http://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/test/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/BitcoindComparisonTool.java?spec=svn844f33b44a5999584574451b3e179324adcc93a5&name=fullscripts&r=844f33b44a5999584574451b3e179324adcc93a5
1110 2012-08-24 21:03:33 <Luke-Jr> (they're hard-masked)
1111 2012-08-24 21:03:34 <gmaxwell> poor gentoo; it's such a neat distro, too bad it doesn't have more resources.
1112 2012-08-24 21:03:46 <BlueMatt> justmoon: oh, it needs a response to the second getwork, dur
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1114 2012-08-24 21:04:06 <BlueMatt> (it uses that to check which block bitcoind is on and see if it accepted the block it sent)
1115 2012-08-24 21:04:23 <justmoon> getwork? you mean getheaders?
1116 2012-08-24 21:04:42 <BlueMatt> uhh...yea, getheaders
1117 2012-08-24 21:04:48 <justmoon> ah ok, makes sense
1118 2012-08-24 21:04:55 <BlueMatt> it sends getheaders and then ping and waits for pong
1119 2012-08-24 21:05:12 matthew_imrich is now known as matthew_wig
1120 2012-08-24 21:05:15 * jgarzik shakes his head sadly at the bitcoin protocol
1121 2012-08-24 21:05:17 <justmoon> roman implemented getblocks and getheaders for bitcoinjs recently, going to ping him if he's pull-request-ready
1122 2012-08-24 21:05:21 <justmoon> then gonna try this again
1123 2012-08-24 21:05:27 <jgarzik> it will soon become normal to send ping after EVERY request :(
1124 2012-08-24 21:05:29 <justmoon> thanks though, this tool looks awesome!
1125 2012-08-24 21:06:16 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: 6 lines with basically zero maintenance cost = dirt cheap imo :p
1126 2012-08-24 21:06:19 <BlueMatt> justmoon: if you know of any fun block tests that I'm missing in http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/FullBlockTestGenerator.java please tell me and Ill add them
1127 2012-08-24 21:06:58 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: well, whatever then, I wish we could just drop it, but...if its needed on gentoo, whatever
1128 2012-08-24 21:07:05 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I hope not
1129 2012-08-24 21:07:11 <justmoon> BlueMatt: will do - you're only interested in block tests, i.e. *not* invalid transactions, correct?
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1132 2012-08-24 21:07:37 <justmoon> or more precisely, anything transaction unit tests can't cover
1133 2012-08-24 21:07:39 <BlueMatt> mostly, I kinda prefer keep invalid txes in the data-driven stuff, but I wouldnt mind adding a few to that
1134 2012-08-24 21:07:47 <justmoon> makes sense ok
1135 2012-08-24 21:07:51 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it's the only way to guarantee a response
1136 2012-08-24 21:07:55 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1137 2012-08-24 21:07:55 <jgarzik> and sequencing
1138 2012-08-24 21:08:07 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: maybe we should just plan to drop 1.49 support in 0.8?
1139 2012-08-24 21:08:11 <jgarzik> other protocols are smart enough to build this into the protocol itself
1140 2012-08-24 21:08:17 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ack
1141 2012-08-24 21:08:22 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well, its rare you need to do so
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1143 2012-08-24 21:08:31 <BlueMatt> but...yea
1144 2012-08-24 21:09:07 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: no guarantee the ping will be processed after the earlier command, is there?
1145 2012-08-24 21:09:22 <BlueMatt> well, there is in the reference client, and Id kinda like to keep that
1146 2012-08-24 21:09:30 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: all current implementations guarantee that, yes
1147 2012-08-24 21:09:32 <BlueMatt> (it makes a few things like pings easier)
1148 2012-08-24 21:09:51 <BlueMatt> I suppose we should formalize that in the big standards document that explains all the standards....
1149 2012-08-24 21:10:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: even the non-satoshi ones that I've never heard of? ;)
1150 2012-08-24 21:11:38 darkee has quit (!~darkee@gateway/tor-sasl/darkee|Remote host closed the connection)
1151 2012-08-24 21:11:43 <Luke-Jr> eg /Snoopy:0.1/ETH Zurich/PlanetLab/
1152 2012-08-24 21:13:01 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1153 2012-08-24 21:13:12 <sipa> ha, Snoopy
1154 2012-08-24 21:13:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you know what that is? :P
1155 2012-08-24 21:13:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh ... did we want to do some hidden service seeds for 0.7?
1156 2012-08-24 21:14:06 <gmaxwell> "update seeds" is still on the 0.7 todo.
1157 2012-08-24 21:14:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: I assume it's those researches who wanted to have their DNS server in the seeds list?
1158 2012-08-24 21:14:37 <sipa> "snoopy" sounds appropriate, as they wanted to snoop traffic, I assume ;)
1159 2012-08-24 21:14:37 <gmaxwell> ETH Zurich seems not.
1160 2012-08-24 21:14:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: doesnt seem related (guessing based on the institution)
1161 2012-08-24 21:14:58 <sipa> that wasn't ETH Zurich?
1162 2012-08-24 21:15:09 <sipa> my memory must be cheated by some spell
1163 2012-08-24 21:15:20 <gmaxwell> It was UMD.
1164 2012-08-24 21:15:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, i haven't tested onion stuff in a while
1165 2012-08-24 21:15:45 <sipa> we probably should remove NET_I2P altogether for now
1166 2012-08-24 21:17:58 <gmaxwell> I keep a normal and testnet node running.  I have several inbound onion connections on my mainnet node.
1167 2012-08-24 21:18:40 <gmaxwell> and one outbound, I assume to you.
1168 2012-08-24 21:18:41 <sipa> i can provide an updated seed list based on what my crawler knows, but its database was reset quite resently
1169 2012-08-24 21:18:44 <gmaxwell> (or jrmithdobbs )
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1171 2012-08-24 21:19:10 <sipa> resently = in the recent past, in a resentful way
1172 2012-08-24 21:19:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, perhaps we should wait until right before the release then, at least that will give you a few weeks of data.
1173 2012-08-24 21:19:55 <Luke-Jr> my dns seed has been stable for a while
1174 2012-08-24 21:20:11 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/seeds.txt
1175 2012-08-24 21:20:20 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: what software do you run on that?
1176 2012-08-24 21:20:24 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: sipa's
1177 2012-08-24 21:20:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i have a script to combine the output from several dumps into a seed list, by the way
1178 2012-08-24 21:21:05 <sipa> as comparison with nanotube's instance has already shown that there can be quite some difference between instances (which is a bit worrying, but i haven't investigated)
1179 2012-08-24 21:21:09 <Luke-Jr> 82.130.102.160:58883	0.00%	0.00%	0.00%	20.63%	33.49%	193806	60001 "/Snoopy:0.1/ETH Zurich/PlanetLab/"
1180 2012-08-24 21:21:26 <Luke-Jr> 82.130.102.160:37049	0.00%	0.00%	0.00%	20.28%	30.97%	0	60001 "/Snoopy:0.1/ETH Zurich/PlanetLab/"
1181 2012-08-24 21:21:32 <Luke-Jr> should they be port-specific? O.o
1182 2012-08-24 21:21:42 <gmaxwell> they're different nodes.
1183 2012-08-24 21:22:22 <gmaxwell> I wonder if they realize that peer selection is going to make their snoopy on a non-standard port pretty ineffective.
1184 2012-08-24 21:22:33 <Luke-Jr> heh
1185 2012-08-24 21:26:17 jurov is now known as jurov|away
1186 2012-08-24 21:27:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: you seen this code? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3238.msg45795#msg45795  It's 20% faster on my laptop (the printing code omits a factor of 100 when displaying 'percent').
1187 2012-08-24 21:28:32 <justmoon> gmaxwell: just implemented this in javascript yesterday ^^: http://jsperf.com/jsbn-vs-sjcl-ecc/4
1188 2012-08-24 21:28:48 <gmaxwell> justmoon: what sort of sppedup did you get in JS
1189 2012-08-24 21:28:53 <justmoon> 30%
1190 2012-08-24 21:28:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: i saw the link, didn't check it yet
1191 2012-08-24 21:28:59 <gmaxwell> oh.. link.
1192 2012-08-24 21:29:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: should give a visible speedup for your ultraprune syncups.
1193 2012-08-24 21:38:18 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
1194 2012-08-24 21:38:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: 20% isn't _that_ much
1195 2012-08-24 21:39:01 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1196 2012-08-24 21:39:02 <sipa> however, i did read something about batch validation resulting in 3-4 times speedup?
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1198 2012-08-24 21:39:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: 'meh' batch validation is somewhat incompatible with the cache, I guess it would be good for initial sync.
1199 2012-08-24 21:40:28 <BlueMatt> txes come in quick enough you could do a batch across 5 seconds or something
1200 2012-08-24 21:40:32 <gmaxwell> one thing about the batch is that you should be able to tradeoff security for speed.
1201 2012-08-24 21:40:45 <gmaxwell> E.g. might be able to get closer to 4x speedup with only 64 bit security.
1202 2012-08-24 21:41:29 <gmaxwell> one of the ed25519 papers describes how to do them.
1203 2012-08-24 21:41:40 <sipa> for ECDSA?
1204 2012-08-24 21:41:54 <gmaxwell> For ed25519, though I assume it's nearly the same.
1205 2012-08-24 21:44:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, if there is a batch validation implemented, you can use it per-transaction still (there are often >1 sigops in a transaction)
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1208 2012-08-24 21:48:55 <justmoon> google wanted faster ecdsa in openssl, it's for x64 only, but it achieves about 3-4 times speedup for verification
1209 2012-08-24 21:49:15 <justmoon> they did it for NIST-P224 first, but have since added NIST-P256
1210 2012-08-24 21:49:35 <justmoon> should be possible to modify for secp256k1 and get a 3-4 times speedup for sig verifications on x64
1211 2012-08-24 21:50:24 <justmoon> paper (for 224 bit): http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/37376.pdf
1212 2012-08-24 21:50:43 <justmoon> code (for 256 bit): google ecp_nistp256.c
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1214 2012-08-24 21:55:50 <BlueMatt> wumpus: let me apologize in advance for the number of incorrect bitcoin-pull-tester fails you will see on #1723, it happens to be the first pull right now and Im still testing the block-testing stuff
1215 2012-08-24 21:55:56 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1216 2012-08-24 21:57:23 <justmoon> (if anybody wants to work - or has worked - on porting the google code for secp256k1, please let me know, so I don't duplicate your work)
1217 2012-08-24 21:57:50 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: can delete them.. :p
1218 2012-08-24 21:57:59 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: he'll still get emails
1219 2012-08-24 21:58:24 <justmoon> email recall - much needed smtp feature ^^
1220 2012-08-24 21:58:25 <Luke-Jr> I suppose
1221 2012-08-24 21:58:32 <BlueMatt> justmoon: heh
1222 2012-08-24 21:58:46 <sipa> justmoon: secp256k1 needs an SMTP feature?
1223 2012-08-24 21:58:49 <sipa> sounds good
1224 2012-08-24 21:58:59 <sipa> oh, other conversation...
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1226 2012-08-24 21:59:11 <justmoon> everything becomes an email client eventually :P
1227 2012-08-24 21:59:21 <BlueMatt> s/email client/web browser/
1228 2012-08-24 21:59:51 <justmoon> you're right, email client is so 1990s
1229 2012-08-24 22:00:13 <BlueMatt> "the java command requires a mounted proc fs (/proc)." fffuuuuuu
1230 2012-08-24 22:00:31 <sipa> is that a problem?
1231 2012-08-24 22:00:54 <BlueMatt> I prefer to not mount my proc in an insecure chroot that runs random unverifiable code
1232 2012-08-24 22:01:05 <BlueMatt> guess I have to though :(
1233 2012-08-24 22:01:56 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: LXC
1234 2012-08-24 22:02:04 <sipa> does the random unverifiable code run with admin privileges?
1235 2012-08-24 22:02:17 <BlueMatt> no, but Im not trusting that it cant get them easily
1236 2012-08-24 22:02:34 * Luke-Jr notes admin privs can probably escape the chroot <.<
1237 2012-08-24 22:02:41 <BlueMatt> true
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1252 2012-08-24 22:35:02 <Eliel> justmoon: especially bitcoin, since sending value is a form of communication anyway :)
1253 2012-08-24 22:35:39 nsh- has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1254 2012-08-24 22:35:50 <Eliel> but I expect it's more likely bitcoin will be integrated into existing browsers rather than bitcoin software becoming a browser :D
1255 2012-08-24 22:36:17 hasenj has joined
1256 2012-08-24 22:36:19 <justmoon> Eliel: hehe
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1283 2012-08-24 23:33:11 <BlueMatt> wow...so java uses /proc to find the location of its current exe, and from there looks for the location of one lib...instead of putting that lib in a standard location
1284 2012-08-24 23:33:18 <BlueMatt> just LD_PRELOAD and it works without /proc
1285 2012-08-24 23:33:41 <BlueMatt> but...who's surprised? its java
1286 2012-08-24 23:34:03 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1287 2012-08-24 23:34:41 <sipa> hey, that's a way that works...
1288 2012-08-24 23:34:45 wasabi1 has joined
1289 2012-08-24 23:35:23 <BlueMatt> depends on how you define "works"
1290 2012-08-24 23:36:50 wasabi1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1291 2012-08-24 23:37:05 <BlueMatt> anywhoo...block test seems to work, see ya'll monday
1292 2012-08-24 23:39:42 <justmoon> BlueMatt: still here?
1293 2012-08-24 23:41:04 <BlueMatt> justmoon: for a minute
1294 2012-08-24 23:41:19 <justmoon> BlueMatt: have a log of a successful test run?
1295 2012-08-24 23:41:30 <BlueMatt> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/9fd537965dd3d1d7fd5815c18af35470964f1400/test.log
1296 2012-08-24 23:41:33 <justmoon> thanks
1297 2012-08-24 23:41:40 <BlueMatt> look for java -jar ....
1298 2012-08-24 23:41:47 <justmoon> have a good weekend!
1299 2012-08-24 23:41:50 <BlueMatt> you too
1300 2012-08-24 23:41:54 <justmoon> thx <3
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