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 28 2012-08-25 00:46:43 <sipa> according to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules, a transaction must be at least 100 bytes
 29 2012-08-25 00:46:50 <sipa> i can't find any such check
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 31 2012-08-25 00:48:19 <gmaxwell> hm. You could make a coinbase smaller than that I suspect. E.g. if it was anyone-redeemable.
 32 2012-08-25 00:49:17 setkeh` is now known as setkeh
 33 2012-08-25 00:52:07 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #36: FAILURE in 5 hr 1 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/36/
 34 2012-08-25 00:52:43 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: think my connection to you (onion) is inbound if you care ;p
 35 2012-08-25 00:55:36 <sipa> wow, i have 8 inbound onion connections
 36 2012-08-25 00:55:42 <sipa> but no outbound ones
 37 2012-08-25 00:56:01 sebicas has joined
 38 2012-08-25 00:56:47 <sipa> kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion is my address
 39 2012-08-25 00:58:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm connected out to you.
 40 2012-08-25 00:58:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: you won't have outbounds though, because peer selection treats all onion as one group.
 41 2012-08-25 00:58:58 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i'm also connected to you
 42 2012-08-25 00:59:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: it doesn't
 43 2012-08-25 00:59:04 <gmaxwell> well, maybe one, but that seems unlikely.
 44 2012-08-25 00:59:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh? hm. darn, I thought it did.
 45 2012-08-25 00:59:13 <jrmithdobbs> but ya, I noticed it doesn't ever really pick onion outbounds
 46 2012-08-25 00:59:21 <jrmithdobbs> unless onion only
 47 2012-08-25 01:00:04 <sipa> there are 16 onion groups
 48 2012-08-25 01:00:07 <sipa> apparently
 49 2012-08-25 01:00:31 <gmaxwell> ah, based on what.. some byte in the onion addresses?
 50 2012-08-25 01:00:49 <sipa> yeah, so it's basically freely choosable
 51 2012-08-25 01:01:04 <sipa> but i wanted to prevent just making one outbound onion connection
 52 2012-08-25 01:01:17 <sipa> maybe 4 onion groups would be better
 53 2012-08-25 01:02:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, perhaps it should depend on if you were onlynet onion.
 54 2012-08-25 01:02:17 <sipa> meh.
 55 2012-08-25 01:02:20 <gmaxwell> yea.
 56 2012-08-25 01:02:34 <sipa> in combination with peer rotation this would be less of an issue
 57 2012-08-25 01:02:35 <gmaxwell> but does kinda suck if you're onlynet onion and you only get four connections out.
 58 2012-08-25 01:03:10 <gmaxwell> well, I suppose not that bad; someone who is onlynet onion will probably manually pin some peers.
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 64 2012-08-25 01:22:13 <sebicas> Can somebody give me a hand with this https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/issues/6
 65 2012-08-25 01:22:24 <sebicas> I am stuck since a couple of hours
 66 2012-08-25 01:26:21 <Joric> not quite sure about using sha256 hiword as a random number, does it really give uniform distribution?
 67 2012-08-25 01:26:23 <Joric> 'One problem is that we don't know that SHA-256 has a
 68 2012-08-25 01:26:23 <Joric> uniform distribution of outputs for any random set of inputs
 69 2012-08-25 01:26:46 <Joric> ;) i guess it's random... enough
 70 2012-08-25 01:27:53 <amiller> it's close enough
 71 2012-08-25 01:28:07 <amiller> it's impossible to make a hash function that's truly random and withstands all conceivable "randomness" tests
 72 2012-08-25 01:28:38 <sipa> i believe that if you're able to find an non-random set of inputs which has a demonstratably non-random distribution of output, you already have a chance at getting a paper published in some crypto journal :)
 73 2012-08-25 01:28:41 <amiller> on the other hand, if anyone could produce a test that sha256 failed at, it would be considered a big failure
 74 2012-08-25 01:32:49 <gmaxwell> amiller: perform enough tests and all data fails... correction for multiple comparisons and all that jazz.
 75 2012-08-25 01:33:27 one_zero has joined
 76 2012-08-25 01:34:11 <sipa> discard my previous claim
 77 2012-08-25 01:35:02 <Joric> 8 minutes to the all-time-high difficulty
 78 2012-08-25 01:35:14 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
 79 2012-08-25 01:35:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 195550 | Current Difficulty: 2190865.9701029 | Next Difficulty At Block: 195551 | Next Difficulty In: 1 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 8 minutes and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2443235.01955486 | Estimated Percent Change: 11.5191459859
 80 2012-08-25 01:35:32 <Luke-Jr> Joric: … you're predicting the next block? :p
 81 2012-08-25 01:35:48 <Joric> estimated ofc
 82 2012-08-25 01:36:39 <Joric> well, yes, the next block
 83 2012-08-25 01:37:17 <Joric> it's usually delayed
 84 2012-08-25 01:38:19 <gmaxwell> My favorate safe random technique is to take my random data and split in two parts. Subject half to randomness tests. If it passes xor the two halves and output. If it fails save the data to be xored with the next unit of randomness.
 85 2012-08-25 01:38:23 <Joric> 195550 is already 23 minutes old
 86 2012-08-25 01:39:35 <sebicas> I was able to get a hash160 in hexa that math with address hash160 by doing binascii.hexlify(self.scriptPubKey)[6:46]
 87 2012-08-25 01:42:06 <sipa> sebicas: sure?
 88 2012-08-25 01:42:14 <sipa> that [6:46] looks very strange
 89 2012-08-25 01:42:18 <sebicas> Yes, I know..
 90 2012-08-25 01:42:26 <sebicas> But is working..
 91 2012-08-25 01:42:33 <sebicas>  - Valid TX: 4f9d614b0b9efd9ff6c5e2b4a6d79b1eac332fbaa24b02c3b9253c9fe04349cf
 92 2012-08-25 01:42:33 <sebicas>      c392812e8b3068075694e760f73e4066008d6286 for 0.00000001
 93 2012-08-25 01:42:34 <sebicas>      4b0cd95c47a62748491e6852ec021a755bd8ddb6 for 0.09949999
 94 2012-08-25 01:43:03 <sebicas>  - Valid TX: da8b7bc80c397143d9a559067d574caa426e0a64ae5f188868ed091481d38033
 95 2012-08-25 01:43:03 <sebicas>      45f39c8a46091ee413bb61fb135cc4d6012783b7 for 4.40796560
 96 2012-08-25 01:43:04 <sebicas>      b59e762d0942056a49d95fe46d1e4847203045dd for 4.50061332
 97 2012-08-25 01:43:18 <amiller> i always have to reverse the string inside my hexlify to match bitcoin's hash functions
 98 2012-08-25 01:43:20 <sipa> you don't need to spam the channel
 99 2012-08-25 01:43:36 <sebicas> Sorry, didn't meant to spam..
100 2012-08-25 01:43:43 <sebicas> Just to send a valid transaction
101 2012-08-25 01:43:49 <sebicas> Since the first wasn't valid
102 2012-08-25 01:45:02 <sipa> sebicas: what happens if you don't put that [6:46] there?
103 2012-08-25 01:45:26 <sipa> oooh i get it
104 2012-08-25 01:45:37 <sebicas> ?
105 2012-08-25 01:45:39 <sipa> you just take bytes 3-22 of the scriptpubkey
106 2012-08-25 01:45:47 <sebicas> Ahh ok..
107 2012-08-25 01:46:11 <sebicas> So this is because I shouldn't convert it to hexa
108 2012-08-25 01:46:13 <sipa> yes those do indeed contain the hash160 of the pubkey, but only in the case of a standard send-to-pubkeyhash address
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111 2012-08-25 01:53:15 <sebicas> sipa: Isn't scriptPubKey[3:23]?
112 2012-08-25 01:53:38 <sipa> yes, that's bytes 3-22 (inclusive), no?
113 2012-08-25 01:56:51 <sebicas> Well, is working with scriptPubKey[3:23]
114 2012-08-25 01:56:57 <sebicas> But not with scriptPubKey[3:22]
115 2012-08-25 01:57:27 <sebicas> Now I need a way to convert from 06f1b66ffe49df7fce684df16c62f59dc9adbd3f to bit coin key
116 2012-08-25 01:58:11 <Joric> all three new blocks relayed by 'unknown'. suspicious!
117 2012-08-25 01:58:26 <sipa> sebicas: scriptPubKey[3:23] *means* bytes number 3 through 22
118 2012-08-25 01:58:40 <sebicas> Thx sipa!
119 2012-08-25 01:59:08 <Joric> 195551 is orphaned
120 2012-08-25 02:00:22 <Joric> looks like an attack of some sort
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214 2012-08-25 06:38:36 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
215 2012-08-25 06:38:37 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #37: FIXED in 3 hr 7 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/37/
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218 2012-08-25 06:53:19 <Varan> lol
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367 2012-08-25 13:54:11 <Joric> Luke-Jr, do you drop satoshidice transactions?
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416 2012-08-25 16:31:35 <MC-Eeepc> hot damn cve 20122459 was a doozy
417 2012-08-25 16:32:19 <MC-Eeepc> is that the first real protocol break or what
418 2012-08-25 16:32:36 <MC-Eeepc> apart from the time someone gave themselves 70 gorrilion coins
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420 2012-08-25 16:36:49 <Eliel> I don't think it's of a level where you could call it a protocol break. Especially since it was fixable without a protocol change.
421 2012-08-25 16:37:28 <Eliel> granted, in hindsight, pretty crappy design decision there.
422 2012-08-25 16:38:16 <lianj> Eliel: is the same tx included in a block twice allowed anyway?
423 2012-08-25 16:38:17 <kjj> took 3 years to notice the problem.
424 2012-08-25 16:38:46 <Eliel> lianj: no, not anymore.
425 2012-08-25 16:39:41 sebicas has joined
426 2012-08-25 16:45:25 <TD> it was never allowed
427 2012-08-25 16:45:33 <TD> the only issue was the point at which the checks occurred
428 2012-08-25 16:45:42 <TD> it's a bug, not a design or protocol issue
429 2012-08-25 16:45:44 <MC-Eeepc> from what i read, i wonder if someone coul deliberately do this attack now to make lazy assholes on 0.3 still upgrade
430 2012-08-25 16:45:47 <TD> (was)
431 2012-08-25 16:45:57 <MC-Eeepc> now that its not so dangerous
432 2012-08-25 16:46:41 <MC-Eeepc> it just mongs all unpatched nodes so i read
433 2012-08-25 16:49:08 enquirer has quit (Quit: back soon)
434 2012-08-25 16:53:00 <kjj> MC-Eeepc: the network won't rebroadcast the attack, so you'd need to specifically target the old client you want to mess with
435 2012-08-25 16:54:28 <lianj> thanks easy :D
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472 2012-08-25 18:29:50 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #38: ABORTED in 9 hr 52 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/38/
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499 2012-08-25 19:26:11 <grondilu> On https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_bitcoind I can read:
500 2012-08-25 19:26:27 <grondilu> « By default, Bitcoin (or bitcoind) will look for a file named 'bitcoin.conf' in the bitcoin data directory, but both the data directory and the configuration file path may be changed using the -datadir and -conf command-line arguments. »
501 2012-08-25 19:26:36 <grondilu> Isn't that a bit circular?
502 2012-08-25 19:26:52 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
503 2012-08-25 19:27:06 <grondilu> How can it find bitcoin.conf if its location is defined in bitcoin.conf?
504 2012-08-25 19:27:47 <gmaxwell> 'command-line arguments'
505 2012-08-25 19:27:52 <grondilu> Oh sorry.
506 2012-08-25 19:28:04 [\\\] has joined
507 2012-08-25 19:28:47 <grondilu> I mean, is there a way to specify the datadir option for good, without having to use it as command-line argument each time?
508 2012-08-25 19:30:08 <gmaxwell> No, as you point out— that would be circular.
509 2012-08-25 19:30:09 <gmaxwell> Unless you feel like editing the source to change the default. :)
510 2012-08-25 19:30:09 <grondilu> Well, configuration and datadir should be two different things.  There should be a .bitcoinrc file.
511 2012-08-25 19:30:38 <gmaxwell> So, you want a configuration file to store the location of the configuration file. Am I following you?
512 2012-08-25 19:30:58 <grondilu> No, I want a configuration file to store the location of the data directory.
513 2012-08-25 19:31:29 cheako has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
514 2012-08-25 19:31:34 <grondilu> This is quite common on *nix.
515 2012-08-25 19:32:43 <gmaxwell> grondilu: Er, you already have that.
516 2012-08-25 19:33:05 <gmaxwell> You can put the datadir setting in the configuration file in the default datadir, and it will do the right thing.
517 2012-08-25 19:33:41 <grondilu> will it?  I'll try.
518 2012-08-25 19:34:03 <gmaxwell> It will.
519 2012-08-25 19:35:54 <grondilu> Oh yes indeed.  Sweet.
520 2012-08-25 19:36:22 <grondilu> I thought I had tried it already.  I guess not.
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529 2012-08-25 20:27:59 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #39: ABORTED in 1 hr 57 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/39/
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531 2012-08-25 20:33:14 <Raccoon> Btw.  I think there's something wrong with the systray icon double-click.  ie, it doesn't work.
532 2012-08-25 20:33:33 <Raccoon> must right-click to select Show/Hide Bitcoin
533 2012-08-25 20:33:55 <Raccoon> WinXP
534 2012-08-25 20:35:58 <Luke-Jr> Raccoon: it's a single click.
535 2012-08-25 20:36:39 <Raccoon> Single click doesn't work either.
536 2012-08-25 20:37:09 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
537 2012-08-25 20:37:11 <Raccoon> Double-click should be inherent with single click, too, when fixed
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559 2012-08-25 21:15:22 <MC-Eeepc> bit bitcoin moves to the new database
560 2012-08-25 21:15:38 <MC-Eeepc> will it convert the ld format to the new
561 2012-08-25 21:15:49 <MC-Eeepc> or will people have to sync again
562 2012-08-25 21:16:29 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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564 2012-08-25 21:18:16 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: we will have a migration at startup. It will make your first startup with the new version take a long time as it copies from one to the other.
565 2012-08-25 21:18:45 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
566 2012-08-25 21:19:16 <MC-Eeepc> so its like syncing but from a local database
567 2012-08-25 21:19:47 <gmaxwell> Right.
568 2012-08-25 21:20:09 <gmaxwell> And faster, simply because the new stuff is faster.
569 2012-08-25 21:20:21 <MC-Eeepc> umm, wont that be even worse than syncing from the network, due to two databases thrashing at once
570 2012-08-25 21:20:44 <MC-Eeepc> and create an incentive for everyone to delete thier blockchain at once to speed it up..........
571 2012-08-25 21:21:06 <gmaxwell> No.
572 2012-08-25 21:21:13 <gmaxwell> I like you, you ask easy questions.
573 2012-08-25 21:21:27 <MC-Eeepc> :)
574 2012-08-25 21:22:00 <MC-Eeepc> so your saying olddb + newdb < olddb alone?
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576 2012-08-25 21:22:57 <MC-Eeepc> two DBs thrashin from the same storage medium, i mean
577 2012-08-25 21:23:19 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: reading is not the same as writing, and technically its not even using the old database, it's just reindexing the blocks.
578 2012-08-25 21:23:48 <MC-Eeepc> okie dokie
579 2012-08-25 21:23:48 <gmaxwell> and the blocks are just a simple sequential append only file, super cheap to both read and write.
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595 2012-08-25 21:53:18 <Raccoon> Is there a graph of block data size over time?
596 2012-08-25 21:54:43 <Raccoon> And would it be possible to extrapolate some prediction of download size at a future block number
597 2012-08-25 21:55:00 <Raccoon> then adjust the % complete based on that predicted size, and not based on block number
598 2012-08-25 21:55:02 <sipa> we can give an upper bound
599 2012-08-25 21:55:07 <sipa> 144 MB per day
600 2012-08-25 21:55:16 <Raccoon> hmm?
601 2012-08-25 21:55:25 <Raccoon> is that a hard bound?
602 2012-08-25 21:55:48 <sipa> 1440 minutes per day, 1 block per 10 minutes, 144 blocks per day, max 1 MB per block
603 2012-08-25 21:56:06 <Raccoon> i didn't know there was a 1 MB max
604 2012-08-25 21:56:19 <Raccoon> Have we ever maxed out yet?
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607 2012-08-25 21:56:52 <Eliel> Raccoon: I think there are some blocks that hit the max.
608 2012-08-25 21:57:01 <Raccoon> that's not good.
609 2012-08-25 21:57:11 <Raccoon> especially if we're calling Bitcoin "young"
610 2012-08-25 21:57:22 <Raccoon> hasn't even reached Point Of Sale
611 2012-08-25 21:57:29 <Eliel> it's a temporary measure
612 2012-08-25 21:57:34 <Eliel> will be lifted eventually.
613 2012-08-25 21:57:41 <sipa> that will be a hard fork
614 2012-08-25 21:57:43 <Raccoon> how can it be lifted
615 2012-08-25 21:57:55 <Raccoon> old clients would start complaining
616 2012-08-25 21:58:02 <sipa> it will have to be planned a long time in advance
617 2012-08-25 21:58:03 <Raccoon> rejecting blocks
618 2012-08-25 21:58:05 <sipa> probably years
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622 2012-08-25 21:58:41 <Eliel> Raccoon: look here for an idea of how big the blocks usually are https://blockchain.info/blocks
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626 2012-08-25 22:00:02 <Raccoon> so there's no easy way to trend the growing size of blocks into a simple equation
627 2012-08-25 22:00:18 <Raccoon> that would help the progress bar look more realistic
628 2012-08-25 22:00:25 <Raccoon> estimate time to completoin sync
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631 2012-08-25 22:01:16 <Raccoon> what about a protocol extension that reports total size to a requesting client?
632 2012-08-25 22:01:19 <sipa> well if satoshidice stops tomorrow, blocks will be significantly smaller again (i suspect_
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636 2012-08-25 22:01:29 <Raccoon> heh
637 2012-08-25 22:01:47 <Eliel> Raccoon: if the 1MB limit starts being hit often, you can still get high priority transactions through by paying a bit more fee.
638 2012-08-25 22:01:48 <yellowhat> guess what will happen after the IPO is finished :)
639 2012-08-25 22:02:00 <Eliel> IPO?
640 2012-08-25 22:02:11 <yellowhat> satoshidice ipo
641 2012-08-25 22:02:22 <Eliel> more tx volume?
642 2012-08-25 22:02:51 <Raccoon> how hard would a protocol extension be?
643 2012-08-25 22:03:18 <sipa> Raccoon: to get a better progressbar?
644 2012-08-25 22:03:19 <sipa> nothing
645 2012-08-25 22:03:30 <sipa> we can already do that, but it's not implemented
646 2012-08-25 22:04:31 <Raccoon> eg:  ClientA -> ClientB: "TotalBlockSize?", ClientB -> ClientA: "1234567890"
647 2012-08-25 22:04:40 <sipa> Raccoon: clients already do that
648 2012-08-25 22:04:57 <sipa> but there is no guarantee that your peers have all blocks
649 2012-08-25 22:05:01 <sipa> and they can lie
650 2012-08-25 22:05:12 <Raccoon> So the progress bar can already be set to display by download left?
651 2012-08-25 22:05:41 <Raccoon> just go by the most common number reported
652 2012-08-25 22:05:41 <sipa> wait, you're talking about block sizes
653 2012-08-25 22:05:46 <sipa> not block numbers
654 2012-08-25 22:05:51 <Raccoon> i'm talking about the total database size
655 2012-08-25 22:05:54 <Raccoon> how many gigs
656 2012-08-25 22:06:11 <sipa> but the size is not the problem
657 2012-08-25 22:06:15 <Raccoon> then ClientA looks at his total size, subtracted from the reported size
658 2012-08-25 22:06:21 <Raccoon> knows what size is left
659 2012-08-25 22:06:24 <Raccoon> size is the proble
660 2012-08-25 22:06:26 <Raccoon> m
661 2012-08-25 22:06:27 <sipa> it's the number of modifications to the database
662 2012-08-25 22:06:39 <sipa> larger blocks need more changes written
663 2012-08-25 22:06:56 <Raccoon> larger blocks are physically larger in bytes
664 2012-08-25 22:07:01 Mephisto has joined
665 2012-08-25 22:07:03 <sipa> yes, but that's not the problem
666 2012-08-25 22:07:09 <Raccoon> so what is
667 2012-08-25 22:07:11 <sipa> it's the fact that they are harder to process
668 2012-08-25 22:07:16 <Raccoon> yes
669 2012-08-25 22:07:22 <sipa> and that depends on the number of txins, mostly
670 2012-08-25 22:07:26 <Raccoon> so difficulty is representable in bytes
671 2012-08-25 22:07:34 <sipa> no
672 2012-08-25 22:07:38 <jaxtr> anyone built bitcoin-qt on win8
673 2012-08-25 22:07:48 <sipa> but bytes i a already a better estimator than just the constant we have now
674 2012-08-25 22:07:53 <Raccoon> larger it is, more changes
675 2012-08-25 22:08:02 <Raccoon> right
676 2012-08-25 22:08:11 <sipa> yes, but later blocks are still slower than earlier blocks, even if they'd be the same size
677 2012-08-25 22:08:13 enquirer has joined
678 2012-08-25 22:08:22 <Raccoon> they wouldn't be the same size
679 2012-08-25 22:08:26 <sipa> *sigh*
680 2012-08-25 22:08:41 <Raccoon> size matters :)
681 2012-08-25 22:08:41 <sipa> we still have small blocks now, sometimes
682 2012-08-25 22:08:53 <sipa> even those are slower than older blocks of the same size
683 2012-08-25 22:08:59 <Raccoon> really?  why?
684 2012-08-25 22:09:07 <sipa> because the database is larger now
685 2012-08-25 22:09:24 <sipa> and maintaining a larger database is slower, as fewer parts of it fit in cache
686 2012-08-25 22:09:45 <Raccoon> so back to consolidating the database every so often.
687 2012-08-25 22:09:53 <Raccoon> my so-called "super blocks" idea.
688 2012-08-25 22:09:56 <sipa> that already happens
689 2012-08-25 22:10:01 <sipa> super blocks gain you nothing
690 2012-08-25 22:10:42 <Raccoon> if everyone consolidates the database exactly the same, say each year or each 100,000 blocks
691 2012-08-25 22:10:50 <sipa> how can you consolidate it?
692 2012-08-25 22:10:54 <Raccoon> they can safely "forget" empty blocks
693 2012-08-25 22:11:13 <Raccoon> er empty transaction codes and empty addresses
694 2012-08-25 22:11:25 <sipa> bitcoin internally doesn't know addresses
695 2012-08-25 22:11:28 <Raccoon> they could still be accessed in the "archive"
696 2012-08-25 22:11:46 <Raccoon> but wouldn't sit at the top of the database
697 2012-08-25 22:12:12 <sipa> i'm working on changing the block validation engine to use an "unspent coin set database", plus un-indexed block files
698 2012-08-25 22:12:30 <sipa> instead of using an index block database for everything
699 2012-08-25 22:12:31 <Raccoon> that'd be awesome
700 2012-08-25 22:12:53 <sipa> i can import 185000 blocks into it, in 9 minutes
701 2012-08-25 22:13:32 <sipa> plus, it supports block pruning (but that's not implemented yet)
702 2012-08-25 22:13:51 <Raccoon> trick is, could we ever mark a fixed point in time where everything before than can be easily validated by a simple file hash?
703 2012-08-25 22:14:02 <Raccoon> instead of hashing every transaction?
704 2012-08-25 22:14:11 <Raccoon> *before then
705 2012-08-25 22:14:13 <sipa> sure, that hash is called the block hash
706 2012-08-25 22:14:20 <sipa> it depends on the entire history of everything before it
707 2012-08-25 22:14:23 <sipa> and we checkpoint it
708 2012-08-25 22:14:31 <Raccoon> but a super-block hash
709 2012-08-25 22:14:43 <Raccoon> right, a checkpoint every month or something
710 2012-08-25 22:14:49 <MC-Eeepc> thats onlylike 3000 txn a block
711 2012-08-25 22:14:56 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
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713 2012-08-25 22:15:45 <sipa> Raccoon: the real solution is keeping the validation database in a huge merkle tree, and storing the merkle root of it in the coinbase of blocks
714 2012-08-25 22:16:06 <sipa> Raccoon: if that happens, you can just download a database from someone, and validate it by looking at the blockchain
715 2012-08-25 22:16:16 <sipa> instead of needing the working through all history
716 2012-08-25 22:16:51 <sipa> the only disadvantage is that you lose the zero-trust property that bitcoin has, as you're going to trust the longest chain without validation that that longest chain is actually valid
717 2012-08-25 22:17:41 <amiller> Raccoon, i think you asked your question backwards (but the answer is merkle trees)
718 2012-08-25 22:18:07 <MC-Eeepc> how feasible will it be for how long for a person with fairly average hardware to run a full node
719 2012-08-25 22:18:19 <amiller> if you mark a fixed point in time as a checkpoint, the question isn't how you validate eveyrthing before it - you have to assume that everything before it is already valid
720 2012-08-25 22:18:30 <amiller> the question is, how long does it take you, relative to how far back the checkpoint is, to validate everything else forwards
721 2012-08-25 22:18:32 <MC-Eeepc> if they really wanted to, convieniece aside
722 2012-08-25 22:18:51 <amiller> this comes up if you keep backups for yourself of just the head node every so often (once a month for example)
723 2012-08-25 22:19:01 <amiller> but you have a data catastrophe and lose all your hard drives in a fire
724 2012-08-25 22:20:26 <amiller> even if you made the checkpoint yourself (and therefore it still counts as zero trust, maybe you signed it too), you would need the merkle tree commitments in order to download a new database and validate it, without having to revalidate everything (including the stuff before your checkpoint)
725 2012-08-25 22:20:28 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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728 2012-08-25 22:26:28 <Eliel> sipa: did the person who requested this http://piratepad.net/e931wLGDJE get back to you yet?
729 2012-08-25 22:26:43 <sipa> no
730 2012-08-25 22:26:52 <Eliel> (there were a couple of questions from him added in the document, I answered them just now)
731 2012-08-25 22:27:27 <Eliel> I think this document is worth finishing, whether or not he shows up again :)
732 2012-08-25 22:30:01 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
733 2012-08-25 22:30:10 <Luke-Jr> so what happen with 0.7rc1?
734 2012-08-25 22:31:00 <sipa> i hope we'll have 0.7rc1 tomorrow
735 2012-08-25 22:31:22 <Luke-Jr> I was expecting it yesterday. o.o;
736 2012-08-25 22:33:14 <Mephisto> c'è qualche italiano?
737 2012-08-25 22:33:35 <sipa> Raccoon: actually, your comments about estimating block download more precisely made me thing: as soon as we have initial headers-only mode, we can *know* (and not just guess) what the total number of transactions in the chain is
738 2012-08-25 22:34:19 <Raccoon> there we go :)
739 2012-08-25 22:34:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we can? headers don't tell you…
740 2012-08-25 22:34:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: they do!
741 2012-08-25 22:34:52 <Luke-Jr> where?
742 2012-08-25 22:35:01 <sipa> the answer to getheaders includes block headers + tx counts
743 2012-08-25 22:35:05 <Luke-Jr> o
744 2012-08-25 22:35:11 <Raccoon> now another thing
745 2012-08-25 22:35:15 <Eliel> is the patch that allows checking for txs related to any address in the blockchain going to be in 0.7rc1?
746 2012-08-25 22:35:22 <Raccoon> I know that zero trust is important
747 2012-08-25 22:35:32 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: no such thing exists. perhaps you mean any transaction
748 2012-08-25 22:35:33 <sipa> Eliel: not to any address, but you can query any transaction
749 2012-08-25 22:35:37 <Raccoon> but not all users can stay online for very long, especially with mobile devices
750 2012-08-25 22:35:38 <Raccoon> so
751 2012-08-25 22:35:53 <Raccoon> can we offer a rush download, and offline validation?
752 2012-08-25 22:36:02 <sipa> Raccoon: you mean Electrum?
753 2012-08-25 22:36:10 <Raccoon> unfamiliar with that
754 2012-08-25 22:36:18 <sipa> oh, you mean client-side validation?
755 2012-08-25 22:36:21 <Raccoon> right
756 2012-08-25 22:36:55 <Raccoon> download at full throttle, go offline, validate on battery power w/o internet
757 2012-08-25 22:37:01 <Eliel> sipa: how about the patch that allows launching arbitrary shell script on every block or tx received?
758 2012-08-25 22:37:13 <sipa> Eliel: we already have that (for blocks)
759 2012-08-25 22:37:16 <sipa> since 0.6 or so
760 2012-08-25 22:37:20 <sipa> -blocknotify
761 2012-08-25 22:37:57 <sipa> Raccoon: if you don't mind doing it a bit manually, you can download the blk000* files yourself, and import them while offline
762 2012-08-25 22:38:09 has_many has joined
763 2012-08-25 22:38:12 <Raccoon> right now it's not uncommon to take 16 hours for an average laptop to validate after a few months between using bitcoin
764 2012-08-25 22:38:22 <Eliel> sipa: but not for new transactions?
765 2012-08-25 22:38:38 <sipa> Eliel: not for new mempool transactions, no
766 2012-08-25 22:38:39 <Raccoon> sipa: couldn't the client grab-all?
767 2012-08-25 22:39:06 <Raccoon> I'm also afraid that people might be able to track users by rating their download speed
768 2012-08-25 22:39:34 <Raccoon> collecting metrics based on user's system profile (hdd speed)
769 2012-08-25 22:39:34 <sipa> Raccoon: in theory
770 2012-08-25 22:39:45 <sipa> Raccoon: such things will be easier with initial header-only, i suspect
771 2012-08-25 22:40:03 <Raccoon> so all clients should be downloading at full throttle
772 2012-08-25 22:40:08 <sipa> as that makes block processing a much more pipelined thing with several independent steps
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794 2012-08-25 23:40:51 <Luke-Jr> evoorhees owner of SatoshiDice is in #bitcoin-assets if anyone wants to flame him..
795 2012-08-25 23:41:22 <sipa> evoorhees is owner of SD? :o
796 2012-08-25 23:42:20 <Luke-Jr> apparently
797 2012-08-25 23:45:41 JohnSmith777 has joined
798 2012-08-25 23:49:23 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, I suggested that if he isn't actually trying to kill Bitcoin, he might consider hiring some Bitcoin developer to fix the problem (that is, the impact transactions have on block relaying), so he might join the channel later looking
799 2012-08-25 23:49:54 <Luke-Jr> likely fixing it requires reworking the p2p networking code completely
800 2012-08-25 23:50:04 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
801 2012-08-25 23:50:04 <Luke-Jr> since it's all too synchronous right now
802 2012-08-25 23:52:02 <Matt_von_Mises> Luke-Jr: What is the problem exactly? Bigger block sizes?
803 2012-08-25 23:52:21 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
804 2012-08-25 23:52:28 <sipa> the problem is just the time it takes for a large block to be validated, imho?
805 2012-08-25 23:52:34 minimoose has quit (Quit: minimoose)
806 2012-08-25 23:52:39 <Luke-Jr> Matt_von_Mises: blocks do not begin upload from peerB to peerC, until peerB has finished his own download and verification
807 2012-08-25 23:52:39 <sipa> not sure how rewriting the p2p code would help too much there
808 2012-08-25 23:52:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right now, it's impossible to be involved in relaying a block to other peers so long as you're downloading it
809 2012-08-25 23:53:01 <Luke-Jr> or verifying it
810 2012-08-25 23:53:07 <Luke-Jr> the p2p code is just frozen during that
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812 2012-08-25 23:53:28 <Luke-Jr> an asynchronous model could begin relaying as soon as the header is validated
813 2012-08-25 23:53:40 <Luke-Jr> so the entire network downloads the block in parallel, and verifies in paralle
814 2012-08-25 23:53:48 <Matt_von_Mises> "since it's all too synchronous right now" Well I've made my cbitcoin network code asynchronous. Asynchronous networking is no doubt better.
815 2012-08-25 23:54:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: well, all that'd be required is instead of doing a ProcessBlock call, is adding it to some queue and have that processed by a separate thread
816 2012-08-25 23:54:55 <sipa> no need to touch the p2p code there at all
817 2012-08-25 23:55:03 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh right, sounds like you meant something different in how the blocks are relayed. Well, I'll probably use a separate thread for block validation.
818 2012-08-25 23:55:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that won't begin upload before download completes
819 2012-08-25 23:55:11 <sipa> no, but is that the problem?
820 2012-08-25 23:55:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: most of the delay is likely from limited upload bandwidth
821 2012-08-25 23:55:16 <Matt_von_Mises> One single thread for networking and another for validation.
822 2012-08-25 23:55:46 <Mephisto> what sites are kptn e btcn?
823 2012-08-25 23:56:14 <Mephisto> what sites are kptn e btcn?
824 2012-08-25 23:56:18 <Luke-Jr> or maybe not, I haven't really timed the upload/verify barrier
825 2012-08-25 23:56:28 <sipa> it would be interesting to know
826 2012-08-25 23:56:45 <sipa> my guess would be that at least on well-connected nodes, verification is the problem mostly
827 2012-08-25 23:56:50 <Luke-Jr> but in any case, the problem is only fixed by parallel distribution; parallel verification only reduces the problem a bit
828 2012-08-25 23:57:11 <Luke-Jr> that is, there's still an impact from larger blocks with the latter
829 2012-08-25 23:57:30 <sipa> right, preview-submitting blocks is one solution
830 2012-08-25 23:57:32 <Matt_von_Mises> Luke-Jr: The way you would do it is start relaying blocks even when they have not been validated and stop if they are invalid later on?
831 2012-08-25 23:57:57 <sipa> but preview-submitting also increases exposure to DOS
832 2012-08-25 23:58:02 <sipa> s/DOS/DoS/
833 2012-08-25 23:58:12 <Luke-Jr> Matt_von_Mises: right, but you really need to start relaying blocks *even before your own download of it is done*
834 2012-08-25 23:58:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not so long as the header is checked first
835 2012-08-25 23:58:25 <sipa> agree
836 2012-08-25 23:58:26 <Luke-Jr> and of sufficient difficulty
837 2012-08-25 23:59:13 <Mephisto> what sites are kptn e btcn?
838 2012-08-25 23:59:24 <sipa> Mephisto: i have no idea what you're asking
839 2012-08-25 23:59:35 <sipa> but you're more likely to find an answer in #bitcoin
840 2012-08-25 23:59:39 <Mephisto> it is an abbreviation of the real name
841 2012-08-25 23:59:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the header download + check is basically constant time; more or less txns in the block is irrelevant to it ☺
842 2012-08-25 23:59:51 <Matt_von_Mises> Luke-Jr: Doesn't bitcoin validate headers after downloading the payload? I thought I saw that. If so the headers need to validated when they are downloaded before the payload.
843 2012-08-25 23:59:57 <Mephisto> yes, i see :))