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9 2012-08-30 00:18:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: I cant think of a test case which exercises that code path
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13 2012-08-30 00:19:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: which?
14 2012-08-30 00:19:29 <BlueMatt> the reorg postpone
15 2012-08-30 00:20:02 <sipa> it occurs, and you don't understand why, or you want to build a testcase for it?
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17 2012-08-30 00:20:35 <BlueMatt> I understand it, I wrote the same thing in bitcoinj, but I cant figure out a test case which will trigger it
18 2012-08-30 00:20:45 <BlueMatt> or...I have test cases which should and it doesnt seem to be
19 2012-08-30 00:21:28 <sipa> well it's something that can't occur in normal operation
20 2012-08-30 00:21:35 <BlueMatt> ah, well no wonder
21 2012-08-30 00:21:59 <sipa> it requires a all-of-a-sudden new best chain which is a lot longer than the old active one
22 2012-08-30 00:22:14 <sipa> well, actually, it can happen
23 2012-08-30 00:22:46 <sipa> in a tree: root block A, two children B and B', and then further C, D, E, ... from B
24 2012-08-30 00:23:12 <sipa> first have A, send B' to it, then send D,E,F,G,H,... to it but skipping C
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26 2012-08-30 00:23:18 <sipa> and then suddenly send C?
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28 2012-08-30 00:23:38 <BlueMatt> why does b12 not trigger it: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/FullBlockTestGenerator.java ?
29 2012-08-30 00:23:41 <sipa> actually, even then I think they are connected one by one
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31 2012-08-30 00:24:04 <BlueMatt> b5, b6, b13 based on b12, b14 based on b13, then b12 based on b5
32 2012-08-30 00:24:35 <BlueMatt> yea, so I really dont think it will ever get triggered in normal op because b13 and 14 are orphans
33 2012-08-30 00:24:36 <sipa> nope, even with orphans you shouldn't be able to trigger it
34 2012-08-30 00:24:54 <BlueMatt> yea, thought so
35 2012-08-30 00:25:03 <BlueMatt> no wonder I couldnt think of why i couldnt do it
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37 2012-08-30 00:25:08 <sipa> it needs something like a corrupted block chain db, or changed block validity rules
38 2012-08-30 00:25:29 <BlueMatt> well, in that case, I have pretty much full line coverage of the block acceptance except for one todo and some of the MoneyRange checks
39 2012-08-30 00:26:09 <sipa> nice!
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45 2012-08-30 00:28:13 <BlueMatt> hopefully i can get it mined tomorrow and put it in a data-driven format
46 2012-08-30 00:28:37 <BlueMatt> though it does check some of the network handling as is, so putting it in test_bitcoin may be difficult
47 2012-08-30 00:32:32 * sipa -> bed
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49 2012-08-30 00:33:00 <BlueMatt> gnight
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85 2012-08-30 01:20:04 <osmosis> trying to use decoderawtransaction fail http://dpaste.com/793426/
86 2012-08-30 01:20:41 <gmaxwell> osmosis: er, whatever that is you're giving it, it's not the right input.
87 2012-08-30 01:20:56 <gmaxwell> The raw transaction data is hex. that looks like base64?
88 2012-08-30 01:21:08 <gmaxwell> oh a second line.
89 2012-08-30 01:21:26 <osmosis> gmaxwell, im using tx's from https://mtgox.com/api/0/bitcoin_tx.php
90 2012-08-30 01:21:35 <gmaxwell> welp, I have no clue what it outputs.
91 2012-08-30 01:22:11 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
92 2012-08-30 01:22:14 <gmaxwell> what txid is that supposted to be?
93 2012-08-30 01:22:47 <osmosis> im just grabbing any random one from that url. none of them work
94 2012-08-30 01:23:05 <gmaxwell> osmosis: "then stop using that url"
95 2012-08-30 01:23:22 <gmaxwell> osmosis: if you want one you can get the raw transaction for any txid w/ getrawtransaction
96 2012-08-30 01:23:32 <gmaxwell> if you need some txids, try a getblock
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104 2012-08-30 01:44:54 <sebicas> I am getting this error 'Expected type obj, got str' from sendmany & createrawtransaction
105 2012-08-30 01:45:02 <sebicas> Any ideas?
106 2012-08-30 01:45:45 <gmaxwell> add more {}
107 2012-08-30 01:46:13 <sebicas> I try both '{"1AACtZp65EtF4mZ2fDHC2Fj5h1dGc8zu91":5000000}'
108 2012-08-30 01:46:17 <sebicas> And {"1AACtZp65EtF4mZ2fDHC2Fj5h1dGc8zu91":5000000}
109 2012-08-30 01:46:27 <sebicas> If I try '{"1AACtZp65EtF4mZ2fDHC2Fj5h1dGc8zu91":5000000}'
110 2012-08-30 01:46:27 <gmaxwell> what platform?
111 2012-08-30 01:46:31 <sebicas> Python
112 2012-08-30 01:46:48 <gmaxwell> oh in python you shoul be sending a dict
113 2012-08-30 01:47:52 <sebicas> I am using https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
114 2012-08-30 01:48:28 <sebicas> Yes <type 'dict'>
115 2012-08-30 01:49:00 <sebicas> Still getting value is type str, expected obj
116 2012-08-30 01:49:09 <sebicas> Debug Post Data: {"version": "1.1", "params": [["{\"txid\":\"4abe438bbdea5d367dac3f58d9f9b6551d86568c5d5e02b81d76ce17bb8f11a8\",\"vout\":0}"], {"1AACtZp65EtF4mZ2fDHC2Fj5h1dGc8zu91": 5000000}], "method": "createrawtransaction", "id": 1}
117 2012-08-30 01:49:49 <gmaxwell> worry about the sendmany first.
118 2012-08-30 01:50:27 <sebicas> Well if the same thing..
119 2012-08-30 01:50:37 <sebicas> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp#L1136
120 2012-08-30 01:50:42 <sebicas> if (strMethod == "sendmany" && n > 1) ConvertTo<Object>(params[1]);
121 2012-08-30 01:50:47 <sebicas> if (strMethod == "createrawtransaction" && n > 1) ConvertTo<Object>(params[1]);
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123 2012-08-30 01:51:49 <gmaxwell> you should work with the sendmany first.
124 2012-08-30 01:52:20 <gmaxwell> e.g. a={} a["1AACtZp65EtF4mZ2fDHC2Fj5h1dGc8zu91"]=5000000 and then using a as that argument should work
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127 2012-08-30 01:54:11 <sebicas> Still "value is type str, expected obj"
128 2012-08-30 01:54:36 <gmaxwell> sebicas: putting in the account twice or something?
129 2012-08-30 01:54:41 <sebicas> It work from command line..
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131 2012-08-30 01:54:48 <gmaxwell> pastebin your actual pyhton code.
132 2012-08-30 01:56:04 <sebicas> http://pastebin.com/CGeTenh8
133 2012-08-30 01:57:16 <gmaxwell> sebicas: Was I unclear when I asked you to work with sendmany first?
134 2012-08-30 01:57:33 <sebicas> Ok.. I will try that one then..
135 2012-08-30 01:57:36 <gmaxwell> In that case you've made a vector of strings for a, it probably needs to be a vector of dicts.
136 2012-08-30 01:58:02 <BlueMatt> alright, well afaict, I have every line which can actually occur in normal operation in the block connection logic covered except for tx.IsFinal and MoneyRange stuff, if someone wants MoneyRange, they can do it themselves...
137 2012-08-30 01:58:12 <gmaxwell> But the python json might actually be broken for createrawtransaction, I've never tested it with that; thats why I was suggesting sendmany, which I've used.
138 2012-08-30 01:58:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Is testing moneyrange even possible without patching?
139 2012-08-30 01:58:46 <sebicas> Ok, will try sandmany⦠give me a sec
140 2012-08-30 01:58:47 <BlueMatt> sure
141 2012-08-30 01:59:08 <BlueMatt> you probably couldnt hit all of them, but a few of them are easy with negative/unrealistic values
142 2012-08-30 01:59:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm, well I do think they're important to test.
143 2012-08-30 02:00:27 <BlueMatt> meh, spending a few days writing test after test kinda sucks your energy...
144 2012-08-30 02:01:13 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: well no rush, but it would make sense to complete it before bothering to mine it. How many blocks does it take?
145 2012-08-30 02:01:42 <BlueMatt> currently its at 61
146 2012-08-30 02:03:29 <BlueMatt> should probably check coverage of bitcoinj while Im at it, but...meh, I still need to go back and put in some infrastructure to get this bloom/block-as-v<tx hash> stuff done
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148 2012-08-30 02:06:34 <sebicas> Yes, it worked fine with send many
149 2012-08-30 02:06:35 <sebicas> https://gist.github.com/734c130decbb8f63bcfd
150 2012-08-30 02:07:16 <sebicas> BlueMatt: but still not working with createrawtransaction
151 2012-08-30 02:07:41 <sebicas> At least for one address as output
152 2012-08-30 02:08:10 <gmaxwell> sebicas: okay does it work if you have a vector of dictionaries instead of a vector with a string in it?
153 2012-08-30 02:09:07 <sebicas> Let me check..
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158 2012-08-30 02:12:42 <sebicas> gmaxwell: Is this correct? b = {'1AACtZp65EtF4mZ2fDHC2Fj5h1dGc8zu91':2000000, '17GsLk2Um9cZWaJSFeM7EpT4yYxtcB7SN5':2000000}
159 2012-08-30 02:13:10 <sebicas> With that I still get "value is type str, expected obj"
160 2012-08-30 02:13:16 <gmaxwell> I was referring to the first argument.
161 2012-08-30 02:13:31 <sebicas> Ahh.ok
162 2012-08-30 02:13:44 <sebicas> First works ok..
163 2012-08-30 02:13:52 <sebicas> The problem is with the second argument..
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165 2012-08-30 02:14:30 <sebicas> If I change the first argument..
166 2012-08-30 02:14:40 <sebicas> It tell me that is expecting an array
167 2012-08-30 02:15:18 <sebicas> At first I was sending an String, but worked fine when I replace with with a list
168 2012-08-30 02:16:09 <sebicas> Here is the code: https://gist.github.com/322b66dadd0b3a620d55
169 2012-08-30 02:16:52 <kreal> "Internal HTTP server is now thread-per-connection, rather than a single-threaded queue that would stall on network I/O." <-- Me liky.
170 2012-08-30 02:18:06 <BlueMatt> the locks are still global in all methods
171 2012-08-30 02:18:31 <gmaxwell> sebicas: I realize thats an RFC1918 address, but you really should avoid pastebinning your rpcpassword. FWIW.
172 2012-08-30 02:18:57 <Luke-Jr> XD
173 2012-08-30 02:19:03 <gmaxwell> sebicas: your first argument is ['string'] this is almost certantly wrong.
174 2012-08-30 02:19:23 <sebicas> ok
175 2012-08-30 02:19:31 <gmaxwell> it should probably be a = [{"txid":"4abe438bbdea5d367dac3f58d9f9b6551d86568c5d5e02b81d76ce17bb8f11a8","vout":0}]
176 2012-08-30 02:19:34 <kreal> I fear the "smart" times for transactions a bit though. But lets see how it works out on my dev.
177 2012-08-30 02:20:06 <gmaxwell> kreal: really easy to OOM yourself that way by spinning up a zillion threads.
178 2012-08-30 02:20:38 <BlueMatt> oh, we merged the block timestamp tx stuff? nice!
179 2012-08-30 02:20:42 <BlueMatt> ive been waiting for that
180 2012-08-30 02:20:56 <BlueMatt> no to go find an old wallet and rescan up instead of having rescan times for all my txn...
181 2012-08-30 02:20:57 <kreal> gmaxwell, sorry a bit tired, did not comprehend that.
182 2012-08-30 02:21:17 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
183 2012-08-30 02:21:44 <gmaxwell> kreal: for i in {1..1000} ; do bitcoind listtransactions 2
184 2012-08-30 02:21:58 <gmaxwell> >/dev/null & ); done
185 2012-08-30 02:22:00 <BlueMatt> may need a few more than 1000
186 2012-08-30 02:22:06 <BlueMatt> while [ true ]; ...
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188 2012-08-30 02:22:34 <gmaxwell> er I messed that up.. for i in {1..1000} ; do ( bitcoind listtransactions >/dev/null & ); done will cause about 5gb memory usage.
189 2012-08-30 02:22:38 <kreal> gmaxwell right
190 2012-08-30 02:23:16 <BlueMatt> wait...we actually use that much mem per request? that sounds like something is fairly broken...
191 2012-08-30 02:23:40 <kreal> FYI, had to give walletbit 12GB ram.
192 2012-08-30 02:23:43 <gmaxwell> well, vm, it's from thread stacks.
193 2012-08-30 02:24:05 <BlueMatt> still...5mb/thread (not incl the other stuff)
194 2012-08-30 02:24:16 <BlueMatt> that still sounds very broken...
195 2012-08-30 02:24:23 <kreal> used: 5382 free: 6635 aww not so bad afterall.
196 2012-08-30 02:25:00 <gmaxwell> kreal: bitcoin's memory usage shouldn't be anywhere near that high.
197 2012-08-30 02:25:33 <kreal> with 1000 users on one instance of bitcoind, and 1000 on another ?
198 2012-08-30 02:25:49 <gmaxwell> kreal: what is a user?
199 2012-08-30 02:25:59 <sebicas> BlueMatt: Thxs! It worked!
200 2012-08-30 02:26:23 <kreal> gmaxwell a user is a script doing JSON-RPC getbalance for instance.
201 2012-08-30 02:26:42 <BlueMatt> sebicas: why do you keep tagging me?
202 2012-08-30 02:26:51 <kreal> simplified
203 2012-08-30 02:26:52 <gmaxwell> kreal: all those should have been serialized before. hm. odd.
204 2012-08-30 02:27:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: because you have Blue in your name, it makes you sound more helpful than me.
205 2012-08-30 02:27:20 <BlueMatt> uhhh...ok?
206 2012-08-30 02:27:20 <sebicas> I was just thanking you⦠sorry
207 2012-08-30 02:27:43 <BlueMatt> sebicas: its no big deal, I just found it odd, its not even a tab-complete
208 2012-08-30 02:28:11 <kreal> well to extend, it also implies doing sendfrom, getnewaddress and so on.
209 2012-08-30 02:28:16 <sebicas> I am new in IRC
210 2012-08-30 02:28:37 <kreal> whatever an ewallet does.
211 2012-08-30 02:28:50 <gmaxwell> sebicas: bluematt is confused because it was me helping you, I think.
212 2012-08-30 02:29:07 <gmaxwell> kreal: sure sure.. perhaps its just the wallet stuff.
213 2012-08-30 02:29:12 <gmaxwell> I wish we had a heap profiler.
214 2012-08-30 02:29:27 <sebicas> Sorry! :)
215 2012-08-30 02:29:42 <sebicas> lol Thx gmaxwell!
216 2012-08-30 02:29:50 * gmaxwell wonders what massif would do with bitcoin
217 2012-08-30 02:29:54 <kreal> gmaxwell, 0.6.3 helped alot on mem usage.
218 2012-08-30 02:30:01 <kreal> cannot wait to try 0.7.0
219 2012-08-30 02:30:29 <gmaxwell> kreal: 0.7.0 should help except for multithreading potentially increasing it.
220 2012-08-30 02:30:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: a ton, Id think
221 2012-08-30 02:30:56 <gmaxwell> depends on how many connections you have.
222 2012-08-30 02:32:02 <kreal> gmaxwell the reason for my bitcoind's mem usage could very well be because of the cron job running every minute, checking for new deposits.
223 2012-08-30 02:32:22 <kreal> so 5GB is very good.
224 2012-08-30 02:32:53 <kreal> in retrospect
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226 2012-08-30 02:35:21 <Luke-Jr> â¦
227 2012-08-30 02:35:39 <gmaxwell> Well, it's managable in any case.
228 2012-08-30 02:35:44 <gmaxwell> kreal: how big are your wallet files?
229 2012-08-30 02:36:13 <kreal> sec
230 2012-08-30 02:36:19 <Luke-Jr> [02:13:41] <kreal> I fear the "smart" times for transactions a bit though. But lets see how it works out on my dev. <-- so don't use them, the blocktime and timereceived are still there
231 2012-08-30 02:36:29 <kreal> Luke-Jr, ok good
232 2012-08-30 02:37:01 <kreal> gmaxwell they are 30MB and up.
233 2012-08-30 02:37:09 <gmaxwell> hm. yea, 5gb is broken then.
234 2012-08-30 02:37:41 <gmaxwell> once I figure out how to get good heap profiles of bitcoin I might ask you to collect a bit of data. Though I suppose it would be interesting to hear what happens after you go to 0.7.0
235 2012-08-30 02:37:53 <gmaxwell> kreal: do they grow at all ? e.g. is it obviously leaking?
236 2012-08-30 02:38:14 Joric has joined
237 2012-08-30 02:38:14 <kreal> they do, around 1MB a day now a days.
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240 2012-08-30 02:39:12 <gmaxwell> yea, hm. It would be good to kill that leak if it isn't already dead. Though 1mb/day doesn't explain 5gGB.
241 2012-08-30 02:39:32 <BlueMatt> nothing explains 5g, thats a pretty big leak!
242 2012-08-30 02:39:39 <BlueMatt> s/big/huge/
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244 2012-08-30 02:39:55 <kreal> wouldnt know, I did not make bitcoind neither do I contribute to it's development because I not that good at c++ or c
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246 2012-08-30 02:40:03 <kreal> I'm*
247 2012-08-30 02:40:20 <gmaxwell> kreal: Thats what were here for. You keep running it and reporting weird behavior, and we'll fix it sooner or later.
248 2012-08-30 02:40:41 <gmaxwell> Finding the problems is half the work.
249 2012-08-30 02:40:42 <kreal> always, while promoting bitcoin to the general public.
250 2012-08-30 02:40:43 <kreal> :)
251 2012-08-30 02:41:35 <kreal> oh and more information, I had to point debug.log to /dev/null it was eating my space in hours.
252 2012-08-30 02:42:18 <gmaxwell> kreal: any idea which entries were killing you? We log on some of the RPCs which is probably why.
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254 2012-08-30 02:42:30 <kreal> no sorry.
255 2012-08-30 02:42:35 <kreal> just needed a quick fix
256 2012-08-30 02:42:47 <gmaxwell> We support proper rotation now. You can mv debug.log debug.log.1 then kill -HUP bitcoind and it will make a new debug.log
257 2012-08-30 02:43:08 <kreal> gmaxwell ok awesome.
258 2012-08-30 02:43:15 <kreal> never shutdown bitcoind though.
259 2012-08-30 02:43:35 <kreal> probably one of the reasons for the insane mem usage.
260 2012-08-30 02:43:37 <gmaxwell> so you could rotate out your logs every hour and then at least you'd have some record if it blows up. And if you identify the overly chatty messages it may be something we can shut up easily.
261 2012-08-30 02:43:46 <gmaxwell> kreal: kill -HUP doesn't shut it down.
262 2012-08-30 02:44:04 <gmaxwell> It makes it create a new debug.log after the old one has been moved out of the way.
263 2012-08-30 02:44:21 <kreal> ok then.
264 2012-08-30 02:44:33 <kreal> great, I'
265 2012-08-30 02:44:42 <kreal> I'll see if I can provide some more info later.
266 2012-08-30 02:46:05 <gmaxwell> kreal: also, if you're setup to compile bitcoind it's very easy to turn off overly chatty log messages yourself. I can walk you through it.
267 2012-08-30 02:46:59 <kreal> thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
268 2012-08-30 02:47:17 <kreal> I know a bit c/c++ but am mostly C#
269 2012-08-30 02:47:57 <kreal> I also need to find time to try and move wallet.dat from Berkeley DB to MySQLi just for the fun of it.
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273 2012-08-30 02:48:59 <gmaxwell> kreal: there is almost enough interface in the RPC now to reasonably implement a wallet externally and just use bitcoind for speaking the protocol and tracking the blockchain.
274 2012-08-30 02:49:17 <gmaxwell> We'll probably need a few more things to make that work well... but that might be an option for you in the future.
275 2012-08-30 02:50:30 <kreal> indeed
276 2012-08-30 02:51:11 skeledrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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278 2012-08-30 02:54:20 <kreal> hmm
279 2012-08-30 02:54:28 <kreal> how much Ghash you think a bitcoind can handle?
280 2012-08-30 02:55:11 <kreal> was thinking at trowing 160Ghash at it
281 2012-08-30 02:55:15 <gmaxwell> mining directly? er. it behaves poorly with more than a few. the mining rpcs are not reentrant without patches (unless that slipped in while I wasn't looking)
282 2012-08-30 02:55:26 <kreal> I have this idea that it would make transactions quicker.
283 2012-08-30 02:55:45 <gmaxwell> Just about everyone run a front end poolserver daemon with it, even when mining solo.
284 2012-08-30 02:55:54 <kreal> yes
285 2012-08-30 02:56:52 ThomasV_ has joined
286 2012-08-30 02:57:28 <kreal> bad idea then :)
287 2012-08-30 02:58:01 <gmaxwell> If you want faster transactions you can make a deal with an existing pool to priortize yours.
288 2012-08-30 02:58:13 <gmaxwell> Luke has provides such arrangements.
289 2012-08-30 02:58:14 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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291 2012-08-30 02:58:32 <kreal> yes I read about that.
292 2012-08-30 02:58:43 <kreal> and wondered why I did not already do that.
293 2012-08-30 02:58:45 <gmaxwell> We have a patch in the pipeline to make it easiy for a miner to priority boost single transactions. It didn't quite make it in for 0.7.0.
294 2012-08-30 02:58:52 ThomasV has joined
295 2012-08-30 02:59:06 <kreal> probably because I'm not the best in the world at talking with people.
296 2012-08-30 02:59:12 <gmaxwell> kreal: I get the impression that many pool operators are not that actively engaged; other than basic upkeep its passive income.
297 2012-08-30 02:59:30 <gmaxwell> oh why you. Sorry thought you were asking why more pools didn't have facilities for that.
298 2012-08-30 02:59:45 <gmaxwell> I expect it'll be more common once the basic feature is official.
299 2012-08-30 03:02:38 ivan`_ is now known as ivan`
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303 2012-08-30 03:11:53 <kreal> the only ones I know are Luke-Jr and Jine anyhow.
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306 2012-08-30 03:14:07 <gmaxwell> kreal: I'm hoping that once the API means no patching is required someone will setup a brokering service.
307 2012-08-30 03:14:48 <kreal> oh you just invented a new service model :)
308 2012-08-30 03:15:09 <kreal> business model *
309 2012-08-30 03:15:49 <gmaxwell> I doubt its much of a money maker.
310 2012-08-30 03:16:15 <kreal> true.
311 2012-08-30 03:17:07 Guest42714 has joined
312 2012-08-30 03:17:44 keverw has joined
313 2012-08-30 03:18:49 <kreal> 2843 MB/min pretty good for my new tape library I reckon.
314 2012-08-30 03:19:07 <keverw> Hey! Does anyone know of a client side Javascript Library to validate Bitcoin and Testnet addresses? I found one and changing Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion = 0x00 to Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion = 0x6F; // testnet didn't seem to work⦠Any well known good ones?
315 2012-08-30 03:19:59 <kreal> don't know of anyone sorry. I just use rpc.
316 2012-08-30 03:20:21 DrHaribo has joined
317 2012-08-30 03:20:34 <keverw> Yeah I would use rpc but I don't know the address sent to the server. Saving it as a cookie
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320 2012-08-30 03:21:19 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
321 2012-08-30 03:22:50 <kreal> can you look what blockchain.info does maybe?
322 2012-08-30 03:23:50 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.)
323 2012-08-30 03:24:46 <gmaxwell> presumably there is code in bitcoinjs for this.
324 2012-08-30 03:24:49 <keverw> I'm looking at http://pastebin.com/B5r3P5Ny this code btw
325 2012-08-30 03:24:53 rdponticelli has joined
326 2012-08-30 03:26:27 <keverw> says "<!-- taken from bitcoinjs almost verbatim -->"
327 2012-08-30 03:27:51 <gmaxwell> keverw: what happens if you take out the version test?
328 2012-08-30 03:28:05 <keverw> not sureâ¦.
329 2012-08-30 03:29:56 <keverw> I'm calling check_address('moto6bxC99T4ZSj7F77izS1YrmpWQKxnGk');
330 2012-08-30 03:30:59 <keverw> not 100% sure how to remove the checkâ¦. but I kinda wish it worked. I was going to do something like isTestnet = true or false so I can switch back and forth between dev and production
331 2012-08-30 03:31:28 <gmaxwell> keverw: just comment out the part of the code that rejects it if the version doesn't match.
332 2012-08-30 03:31:33 <gmaxwell> and see if that passes.
333 2012-08-30 03:31:44 <keverw> if (version != 0) ?
334 2012-08-30 03:32:02 <keverw> that and the throw?
335 2012-08-30 03:32:15 <keverw> yep. did it returning true now
336 2012-08-30 03:32:26 <keverw> and check_address('moto6bxC99T4ZSj7F77izS1YrmpWQKxnGs'); is false
337 2012-08-30 03:32:31 <keverw> check_address('moto6bxC99T4ZSj7F77izS1YrmpWQKxnGk'); is true
338 2012-08-30 03:32:59 <Joric> keverw, if version != 111 i believe
339 2012-08-30 03:33:03 <keverw> so seems to just be the version check! Not sure how to fix thatâ¦. any idea? Would prefer that it worked⦠depending on what Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion is set to
340 2012-08-30 03:33:24 <Joric> the address version of testnet is 111 instead of 0
341 2012-08-30 03:33:31 <gmaxwell> As joric says, testnet is 111, so put that in with a switch to trigger it.
342 2012-08-30 03:33:36 bonks_ is now known as bonks
343 2012-08-30 03:33:44 <lianj> keverw: moto6bxC99T4ZSj7F77izS1YrmpWQKxnGs is false for me too
344 2012-08-30 03:33:48 <Joric> also, this is my pastebin
345 2012-08-30 03:33:52 <keverw> it's meant to :)
346 2012-08-30 03:33:54 <gmaxwell> though that code is a bummer, it doesn't correctly support p2sh addresses. You really ought to fix that.
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350 2012-08-30 03:35:09 <Joric> gmaxwell, are there any clients that still doesnt support p2sh?
351 2012-08-30 03:35:16 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
352 2012-08-30 03:35:33 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
353 2012-08-30 03:35:37 <keverw> if (version != Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion) seems like a possible fix also
354 2012-08-30 03:35:41 <keverw> doing some more testing.
355 2012-08-30 03:35:42 TheSeven has joined
356 2012-08-30 03:35:47 <Luke-Jr> send-to-p2sh is implemented in 0.4.8rc1 fwiw
357 2012-08-30 03:36:07 <gmaxwell> Joric: I'm sure. It's more important that services implement it however.
358 2012-08-30 03:36:45 <keverw> Sweet! The version checking seems fixed!
359 2012-08-30 03:37:20 <keverw> http://pastebin.com/mD3Y8y6b
360 2012-08-30 03:37:49 <keverw> if (version != Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion) seems to work insead of a hardcoded 0 or 111.
361 2012-08-30 03:38:18 <gmaxwell> now make 2MxKEf2su6FGAUfCEAHreGFQvEYrfYNHvL7 pass for testnet
362 2012-08-30 03:38:26 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
363 2012-08-30 03:38:29 <keverw> is that a p2sh address?
364 2012-08-30 03:39:25 <gmaxwell> and 3NJZLcZEEYBpxYEUGewU4knsQRn1WM5Fkt on mainnet.
365 2012-08-30 03:39:26 <gmaxwell> Yes.
366 2012-08-30 03:40:28 <keverw> oh⦠how? I This stuff is kinda advance for me :) I just found this on the forums. Could someone help me? Plus others can use this same code.
367 2012-08-30 03:41:28 <gmaxwell> base58.h: * Public-key-hash-addresses have version 0 (or 111 testnet).
368 2012-08-30 03:41:29 <gmaxwell> base58.h: * Script-hash-addresses have version 5 (or 196 testnet).
369 2012-08-30 03:41:45 <lianj> if (version != Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion) || (version != Bitcoin.Address.p2shVersion)
370 2012-08-30 03:41:57 <gmaxwell> Behold, the power of OR. :)
371 2012-08-30 03:42:12 <Luke-Jr> ⦠except it should be INSIDE the parenthesis :P
372 2012-08-30 03:42:51 <Joric> what is this sorcery!
373 2012-08-30 03:43:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: just add more parens. It's like pasta! more is always good!
374 2012-08-30 03:43:18 <Luke-Jr> lol
375 2012-08-30 03:43:49 <freewil> parenthesis always make comprehension easier
376 2012-08-30 03:44:16 <Joric> ppl started to bitch about bw https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104390
377 2012-08-30 03:44:42 <weex> Joric: thought bw meant bandwidth, not brainwallet
378 2012-08-30 03:44:50 <keverw> p2sh works with bit coin qt?
379 2012-08-30 03:44:51 * Luke-Jr too
380 2012-08-30 03:44:57 <Luke-Jr> keverw: not really
381 2012-08-30 03:45:16 <sebicas> Made a mistake by sending http://blockchain.info/tx-index/18514628/fddec3a75b7dd7293b1c1dc68d0daf528da5be8ee2bb5e98a9241bc9d01bada1
382 2012-08-30 03:45:17 <Joric> i actually wanted to make it like wolfram-alpha for bitcoin but it's useless without https and github pages don't support https at all
383 2012-08-30 03:45:17 <keverw> oh⦠my software uses BitcoinQT/the BitcoinDâ¦..
384 2012-08-30 03:45:20 <Luke-Jr> technically, "yes, to an extent", but for practical purposesâ¦
385 2012-08-30 03:45:23 <sebicas> Will it confirm?
386 2012-08-30 03:45:28 <Luke-Jr> keverw: bitcoind is workable with 0.7+
387 2012-08-30 03:45:40 <keverw> oh. ok so I guess I could support it
388 2012-08-30 03:45:51 <Luke-Jr> sebicas: likely. why wouldn't it?
389 2012-08-30 03:45:54 <weex> sebicas: probably quite quickly
390 2012-08-30 03:46:00 <weex> lots of fees
391 2012-08-30 03:46:07 <Luke-Jr> keverw: well, sending TO p2sh is easy, and should work everywhere..
392 2012-08-30 03:46:21 <sebicas> Because the input amount is more than the output
393 2012-08-30 03:46:31 <weex> sebicas: the rest will be spent as fees
394 2012-08-30 03:46:31 <sebicas> Shouldn't both be the same?
395 2012-08-30 03:46:35 <Joric> wolfram alpha should add support for bitcoin already )
396 2012-08-30 03:46:40 <sebicas> Ahh..
397 2012-08-30 03:46:42 <Luke-Jr> sebicas: no, excess is what makes transaction fees
398 2012-08-30 03:46:59 <weex> that is kind of tricky
399 2012-08-30 03:47:12 <keverw> http://pastebin.com/GbEudm8E
400 2012-08-30 03:47:17 <sebicas> So I gave 3.5BTC by mistake.
401 2012-08-30 03:47:24 <sebicas> Thanks
402 2012-08-30 03:47:26 <keverw> the p2shVersion seems to not work⦠hmm
403 2012-08-30 03:47:33 <Luke-Jr> sebicas: no, thank you!
404 2012-08-30 03:47:35 <weex> sebicas: how did you built that tx?
405 2012-08-30 03:47:56 <weex> second time i've heard of this in the last week
406 2012-08-30 03:47:58 <sebicas> Yep, I am testing the new sendrawtransaction in 0.7.0
407 2012-08-30 03:48:43 <sebicas> It should be a warning on the documentation..
408 2012-08-30 03:48:53 <sebicas> I was lucky is just 3.5BTC
409 2012-08-30 03:49:00 <weex> sebicas: which documentation would you have been checking?
410 2012-08-30 03:49:22 <sebicas> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
411 2012-08-30 03:50:36 <keverw> maybe it has something to do with this.version = Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion;â¦. hmm
412 2012-08-30 03:52:01 <keverw> any ideas?
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416 2012-08-30 03:57:20 <keverw> added isTestnet var just missing p2shVersion now. http://pastebin.com/1QcMyHdX
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428 2012-08-30 04:26:05 <freewil> gmaxwell, are all addresses including p2sh 25 bytes
429 2012-08-30 04:27:00 <gmaxwell> freewil: no.
430 2012-08-30 04:29:25 <freewil> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
431 2012-08-30 04:29:36 <freewil> step 8 - this is the 25-byte binary address
432 2012-08-30 04:31:10 <gmaxwell> freewil: oh you mean the base 58 decoded. Yes. All current ones at least.
433 2012-08-30 04:31:32 <freewil> ok thank you
434 2012-08-30 04:42:01 MrTiggr is now known as MrTiggr_
435 2012-08-30 04:46:03 <Luke-Jr> hahahahaha
436 2012-08-30 04:46:12 <Luke-Jr> "Funds are on their way (bitcoin transaction: cf41fc6f26dc8973b9fa5650da64cc26bbbb60d09b0a80c0cc0be62abc6948a8) i sent0.2 i know it not to much but this all i got"
437 2012-08-30 04:46:27 <Luke-Jr> change for that transaction: 24 BTC
438 2012-08-30 04:47:37 <gmaxwell> hahah
439 2012-08-30 04:47:41 <gmaxwell> could be a webwallet. :)
440 2012-08-30 04:48:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I kinda doubt it.
441 2012-08-30 04:48:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: this is someone who I have strong evidence is operating a botnet
442 2012-08-30 04:48:33 <Luke-Jr> and the fool sent me his postal address
443 2012-08-30 04:49:06 <Luke-Jr> I told him I would only help him build a CPU miner if he confirmed his address by me sending him mail
444 2012-08-30 04:49:08 <Luke-Jr> lol
445 2012-08-30 04:49:26 <gmaxwell> Did you get a picture of him with a shoe on his head too?
446 2012-08-30 04:49:42 <Luke-Jr> no
447 2012-08-30 04:49:46 <gmaxwell> aww
448 2012-08-30 04:49:48 <Luke-Jr> why won't Coin Control work? :/
449 2012-08-30 04:49:53 <Luke-Jr> I want to quarantine this coin
450 2012-08-30 04:50:23 <Luke-Jr> Error: Transaction creation failed.
451 2012-08-30 04:51:09 <keverw> back. Should I worry about adding p2sh to that or ??? I'm sorta a noob when adding it.
452 2012-08-30 04:51:57 <gmaxwell> keverw: you should add it, its easy.
453 2012-08-30 04:52:12 <keverw> oh⦠how? http://pastebin.com/1QcMyHdX
454 2012-08-30 04:52:13 <gmaxwell> it's an OR and another version for each master and testnet.
455 2012-08-30 04:52:23 <keverw> I think two parts need change⦠not sure.
456 2012-08-30 04:52:41 <keverw> like this.version = Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion;
457 2012-08-30 04:52:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what would be an easy way to use the raw tx stuff to quarantine it?
458 2012-08-30 04:52:50 <keverw> and if (version != Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion)
459 2012-08-30 04:53:37 <gmaxwell> if ((version != Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion)&&(version != Bitcoin.Address.p2shVersion))
460 2012-08-30 04:54:09 <keverw> ok. cool. what about this.version = Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion; also?
461 2012-08-30 04:54:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: there is no quarantine. The only way to 'quarantine' it using rawtx is to spend it to something outside your wallet.
462 2012-08-30 04:54:23 <keverw> in the Bitcoin.Address = function (bytes) { it says that
463 2012-08-30 04:54:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that'd be fine
464 2012-08-30 04:55:47 <keverw> check_address('3NJZLcZEEYBpxYEUGewU4knsQRn1WM5Fkt'); is true! on main
465 2012-08-30 04:55:50 <gmaxwell> keverw: you can just take that out if your caller doesn't use it.
466 2012-08-30 04:56:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: listunspent [addr] to find it. createrawtx [it] [where-you-want-it]
467 2012-08-30 04:56:30 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: then sign and send.
468 2012-08-30 04:57:35 <keverw> okay. deleting that line seems to be no diff. Sweet!
469 2012-08-30 04:57:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ironically, my listunspent is too old for the address argument, but using coin control's filter it only shows it >_<
470 2012-08-30 04:58:08 <keverw> http://pastebin.com/1JRcD5TN
471 2012-08-30 04:58:12 <keverw> seems great?
472 2012-08-30 04:58:13 <Luke-Jr> ugh, I don't have createrawtx either
473 2012-08-30 04:58:15 <Luke-Jr> :/
474 2012-08-30 04:59:05 <gmaxwell> keverw: yea that line just set a version field on the returned address object.
475 2012-08-30 04:59:08 <keverw> you know Bitcoin.Address.p2shVersion = 5; and Bitcoin.Address.p2shVersion = 196; can those be converted to hex? like 0x6F and 0x00 so they can be constant with the Bitcoin.Address.networkVersion ones?
476 2012-08-30 04:59:21 <gmaxwell> more useful than version would be a isP2SH field, but even that isn't important.
477 2012-08-30 04:59:35 <gmaxwell> 196 in hex is 0xc4
478 2012-08-30 04:59:46 <gmaxwell> 5 in hex is 0x05
479 2012-08-30 05:00:08 <keverw> dang. Thanks! How are you guys so dang smart?
480 2012-08-30 05:00:20 <kreal> They stole it!
481 2012-08-30 05:00:22 <Luke-Jr> is there a web tx decompiler? <.<\
482 2012-08-30 05:00:24 <gmaxwell> It's the beard.
483 2012-08-30 05:00:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: web? fwh. decoderawtransaction
484 2012-08-30 05:00:38 <Luke-Jr> >_<
485 2012-08-30 05:00:47 <kreal> I'm not allowed to grow my beard, because of my gf... so I'm not so smart.
486 2012-08-30 05:00:52 <kreal> she says it iches...
487 2012-08-30 05:00:58 <Luke-Jr> â¦
488 2012-08-30 05:01:05 <gmaxwell> my girlfriend likes mine, and has kept me from removing it when I would have otherwise.
489 2012-08-30 05:01:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did the raw tx stuff get in using BTC units? -.-
490 2012-08-30 05:01:20 <kreal> meh.
491 2012-08-30 05:01:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: bleh
492 2012-08-30 05:01:35 <keverw> thanks guys! This is like prefect.
493 2012-08-30 05:01:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well, thats a mixed bag.
494 2012-08-30 05:01:53 * Luke-Jr facepalms
495 2012-08-30 05:02:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: IIRC our formating is always such that you can get the integer by .replace('.','')
496 2012-08-30 05:02:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no library is going to allow that..
497 2012-08-30 05:02:54 <Luke-Jr> sigh
498 2012-08-30 05:07:04 MrTiggr_ is now known as MrTiggr
499 2012-08-30 05:08:42 <devrandom> sipa: great
500 2012-08-30 05:09:20 <gmaxwell> oh crap. devrandom is caught in a time vortex. Run away!
501 2012-08-30 05:11:06 <Luke-Jr> lol
502 2012-08-30 05:13:21 <devrandom> !ton ma I
503 2012-08-30 05:13:22 <BCBot2`> devrandom: Error: "ton" is not a valid command.
504 2012-08-30 05:13:22 <gribble> Error: "ton" is not a valid command.
505 2012-08-30 05:14:30 <gmaxwell> crap, if he is conjugate as well as time reverse we're hosed!
506 2012-08-30 05:15:27 <devrandom> ?sdrawkcab gnipyt ydobyreve si yhw
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510 2012-08-30 05:20:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, in case you missed it:
511 2012-08-30 05:20:06 <Luke-Jr> [22:18:54] <Luke-Jr> -rw-r--r-- 1 bitcoinpool bitcoinpool 118G Aug 29 22:18 debug.log
512 2012-08-30 05:20:25 <kreal> hehe my point :)
513 2012-08-30 05:20:27 <gmaxwell> hehe I saw earlier.
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529 2012-08-30 06:06:27 <MC-Eeepc> ok so guys
530 2012-08-30 06:06:52 <MC-Eeepc> if everyone moves to ultraprune because its awesome
531 2012-08-30 06:07:02 <MC-Eeepc> who exactly has the actual real chain anymore
532 2012-08-30 06:07:16 <kreal> I'll ultrapurge you if you want.
533 2012-08-30 06:07:34 <kreal> ;)
534 2012-08-30 06:08:09 <MC-Eeepc> wat
535 2012-08-30 06:08:53 B0g4r7_ has joined
536 2012-08-30 06:09:09 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: whoever doesn't delete blocks
537 2012-08-30 06:09:13 <MC-Eeepc> how is a new nodes supposed to prune the chain itself if no one has the fat chain anymore
538 2012-08-30 06:09:27 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: ultraprune doesn't delete the chain
539 2012-08-30 06:10:02 <MC-Eeepc> yes it does, rplaces it with something smaller
540 2012-08-30 06:10:08 B0g4r7__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
541 2012-08-30 06:10:25 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: just the index
542 2012-08-30 06:10:43 <MC-Eeepc> eh?
543 2012-08-30 06:10:56 <MC-Eeepc> but the index isnt the huge file
544 2012-08-30 06:11:34 <Luke-Jr> the huge file is split up, and you can delete some of them
545 2012-08-30 06:12:03 <MC-Eeepc> yeah its essentially lossy compression
546 2012-08-30 06:12:12 <Luke-Jr> â¦no
547 2012-08-30 06:12:13 <MC-Eeepc> so who has the full file anymore
548 2012-08-30 06:12:31 <Luke-Jr> everyone who doesn't manually delete any parts of it
549 2012-08-30 06:13:16 <MC-Eeepc> if you do not then you get no benefits of ultraprune
550 2012-08-30 06:13:54 <Luke-Jr> wrong
551 2012-08-30 06:13:58 <Luke-Jr> the main benefits are the pruned index
552 2012-08-30 06:13:59 <MC-Eeepc> the data is gone, thats the point
553 2012-08-30 06:16:40 <gmaxwell> ultraprune is not lossy.
554 2012-08-30 06:17:00 <gmaxwell> it's blind people arguing about the colors of flowers.
555 2012-08-30 06:17:08 <gmaxwell> Ultraprune removes _no_ information.
556 2012-08-30 06:17:33 <gmaxwell> It's structured in a way that information can be removed, but thats not implemented and probably won't be soon.
557 2012-08-30 06:17:45 <gmaxwell> It gets big performance improvements due to reducing the working set size.
558 2012-08-30 06:18:40 <gmaxwell> (by avoiding a bunch of redundant, needless data in the index)
559 2012-08-30 06:18:59 <MC-Eeepc> but not database size currently?
560 2012-08-30 06:19:05 <MC-Eeepc> the blk dats
561 2012-08-30 06:19:16 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: In english?
562 2012-08-30 06:19:34 torsthaldo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
563 2012-08-30 06:19:45 <MC-Eeepc> can you sync a full node from an ultraprune node
564 2012-08-30 06:20:09 <gmaxwell> Yes.
565 2012-08-30 06:20:23 <gmaxwell> A ultraprune node _IS_ a full node.
566 2012-08-30 06:20:30 <gmaxwell> And it can bootstrap new ones.
567 2012-08-30 06:20:40 <MC-Eeepc> oh, well thats good
568 2012-08-30 06:21:04 <gmaxwell> It's functionally identical (er, well except for looking up not-yours txn randomly at least right now), just a ton faster.
569 2012-08-30 06:21:26 <MC-Eeepc> ok so how do i put this
570 2012-08-30 06:21:31 <MC-Eeepc> whats the catch?
571 2012-08-30 06:22:19 <gmaxwell> The code is new, largely untested, and almost certantly buggy.
572 2012-08-30 06:22:57 <MC-Eeepc> ok but thats not a huge problem
573 2012-08-30 06:23:13 <gmaxwell> It's also in theory less robust against disk corruption, at least as written now. Although the current code has basically no corruption robustness although it could.
574 2012-08-30 06:23:17 <gmaxwell> It is a huge problem.
575 2012-08-30 06:23:44 <gmaxwell> And ultimately it may prevent ultraprune from actually being available for people for a long time.
576 2012-08-30 06:23:51 <MC-Eeepc> ok its not a small problem but its fixable eventually
577 2012-08-30 06:25:29 <MC-Eeepc> i mean whats the catch in terms of the bitcoin network itself, how it operates etc. Does it reduce decentralisation in some way
578 2012-08-30 06:25:37 <gmaxwell> Well everything is fixable. But bugs in chain handling have enormous risk to the network. It probably can not be adopted without more rigorous testing than we've had for anything else, and even then it will be risky: because _fixing_ chain handling bugs has risks too; so the fact that it fixes something the old code got wrong may burn us.
579 2012-08-30 06:26:17 <Joric> that major announcement in september is it still secret?
580 2012-08-30 06:26:19 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: Do you get the impression that I'd be advocating anything that reduces decentralization?
581 2012-08-30 06:26:51 <gmaxwell> (esp after I've driven TD and justmoon absolutely nuts in here by dogmatically arguing against any behavior that hurts decentralization...)
582 2012-08-30 06:26:54 <MC-Eeepc> well no, but there is much talk of compromises and stuff
583 2012-08-30 06:27:20 <MC-Eeepc> if it doesnt then thats great
584 2012-08-30 06:27:29 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: the end goal is to have nodes that work before being complete, but still eventually complete
585 2012-08-30 06:28:07 <MC-Eeepc> ok
586 2012-08-30 06:28:22 <MC-Eeepc> wouldnt that impinge somewhat on the zero trust model?
587 2012-08-30 06:29:03 <Luke-Jr> temporarily
588 2012-08-30 06:29:38 <Luke-Jr> besides, you can never have *complete* zero trust in that sense: if you reject the accepted history, nobody will do business with you who does
589 2012-08-30 06:30:03 <MC-Eeepc> ah theres the catch
590 2012-08-30 06:30:08 <MC-Eeepc> but it dosnt sound too bad
591 2012-08-30 06:30:22 <Luke-Jr> so eventually, no matter what anyone does, you *have* to trust that the ancient history of the blockchain is legit
592 2012-08-30 06:30:28 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: what are you talking about?
593 2012-08-30 06:30:32 <Luke-Jr> because to not do so, means you're not using the same Bitcoin as everyone else
594 2012-08-30 06:31:04 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: that's the case today, even if you can prove the ancient history took place a certain way
595 2012-08-30 06:31:11 <Luke-Jr> you still don't have a real choice but to accept it
596 2012-08-30 06:31:18 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: what luke is talking about has nothing to do with ultraprune.
597 2012-08-30 06:31:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I suspect ultraprune wasn't really ever the topic :p
598 2012-08-30 06:32:02 <MC-Eeepc> um yes it was
599 2012-08-30 06:32:48 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: well half of what you're saying has nothing to do with it. There is no "talk of compromises" with ultraprune.
600 2012-08-30 06:34:18 <Luke-Jr> nor any significant disk space reduction
601 2012-08-30 06:34:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the the index is enormously smaller.
602 2012-08-30 06:35:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: now you're confusing me too :P
603 2012-08-30 06:35:20 <gmaxwell> The blocks could be smaller too, if it compressed them, but for right now people wanted binary compatiblity of the blockfiles 'meh'.
604 2012-08-30 06:36:36 pjorrit has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
605 2012-08-30 06:36:47 <MC-Eeepc> so ultraprune doesnt reduce disk space usage that much?
606 2012-08-30 06:37:23 pjorrit has joined
607 2012-08-30 06:37:33 <Luke-Jr> MC-Eeepc: if you mean blk000n.dat files, not as-is today; if you mean blkindex.dat, somewhat.
608 2012-08-30 06:37:51 <gmaxwell> It makes the about a 100 megs instead of a gig.
609 2012-08-30 06:37:56 <gmaxwell> er the index.
610 2012-08-30 06:38:39 <gmaxwell> and it makes the software enormously faster because that 100 megs is all it needs to access in normal operation.
611 2012-08-30 06:38:47 <Joric> i badly want index by addresses... just in case
612 2012-08-30 06:38:56 <gmaxwell> (the blk files are only used for reorgs and for feeding peers)
613 2012-08-30 06:39:08 <Luke-Jr> Joric: just in case of ⦠what? O.o
614 2012-08-30 06:39:58 <Joric> for graphs )
615 2012-08-30 06:40:06 <gmaxwell> well I want that too, to support external wallets mostly. But I'm waiting for etotheipi to port armory to the rpc and say he needs it before I start trying to convince everyone else that its worth the space.
616 2012-08-30 06:40:15 <gmaxwell> Joric: dumb reason for a default behavior.
617 2012-08-30 06:40:20 <MC-Eeepc> well, the main purpose of the blk files it to keep everyone else honest and with no power to take over the netowrk is it not
618 2012-08-30 06:40:56 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: the purpose of the blk files is to store the blocks. geesh.
619 2012-08-30 06:41:02 <Luke-Jr> LOL
620 2012-08-30 06:42:27 <gmaxwell> ulra prune just makes is so that the regular operations isn't constantly accessing them or constantly accessing a huge index... this decreases the working set size, so everything ends up cached and its very fast.
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622 2012-08-30 06:45:59 <MC-Eeepc> The working set can be cached in ram then?
623 2012-08-30 06:48:26 <MC-Eeepc> and initial sync from blk 0 times will be much reduced right?
624 2012-08-30 06:48:34 <osmosis> does the USE_QRCODE compile flag apply to bitcoind?
625 2012-08-30 06:48:41 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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628 2012-08-30 07:01:03 <Luke-Jr> osmosis: bitcoind doesn't use qr codes
629 2012-08-30 07:02:19 <osmosis> Luke-Jr, correct...ive updated build-unix.txt accordingly https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1755
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639 2012-08-30 07:37:23 <libcoin> Strange Transaction: bd1715f1abfdc62bea3f605bdb461b3ba1f2cca6ec0d73a18a548b7717ca8531 in block 196294
640 2012-08-30 07:37:46 <libcoin> scriptPubKey: OP_HASH160 ce5e5d5792ff236e8b6bc52e1702b6906ba459dd OP_EQUAL
641 2012-08-30 07:37:53 <libcoin> scriptSig: OP_FALSE
642 2012-08-30 07:38:15 <libcoin> so Hash160(0x00) == ce5e5d5792ff236e8b6bc52e1702b6906ba459dd
643 2012-08-30 07:38:20 drazak_ has joined
644 2012-08-30 07:38:39 <libcoin> Problem is that I cannot get it to evaluate to this ...
645 2012-08-30 07:39:08 <libcoin> Seems like there is something fishy in the Solver script
646 2012-08-30 07:39:12 <libcoin> Thoughts ?
647 2012-08-30 07:43:04 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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660 2012-08-30 08:18:44 <libcoin> Sorry - Hash160(vector_of_size_0) - but it still does not evaluate correctly
661 2012-08-30 08:18:45 Diablo-D3 has joined
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663 2012-08-30 08:32:40 bit2012 has joined
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665 2012-08-30 08:42:25 <sipa> libcoin: doesnt OP_FALSE push the empty byte sequence?
666 2012-08-30 08:43:11 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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670 2012-08-30 08:46:16 <libcoin> sipa: yes
671 2012-08-30 08:46:28 <libcoin> vector_of_size_0 as I corrected it to
672 2012-08-30 08:46:46 <libcoin> but still it does not evaluate to ce5e5d5792ff236e8b6bc52e1702b6906ba459dd
673 2012-08-30 08:46:57 <libcoin> but b472a266d0bd89c13706a4132ccfb16f7c3b9fcb
674 2012-08-30 08:47:40 <libcoin> and my libcoin daemon hangs on block 196294 due to a verifysignature
675 2012-08-30 08:47:47 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
676 2012-08-30 08:48:30 <libcoin> as I see it from blockchain.info: http://blockchain.info/tx-index/18479989/bd1715f1abfdc62bea3f605bdb461b3ba1f2cca6ec0d73a18a548b7717ca8531
677 2012-08-30 08:48:53 <libcoin> it should indeed not verify
678 2012-08-30 08:48:55 ByronJohnson has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
679 2012-08-30 08:49:36 TD has joined
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681 2012-08-30 08:52:09 <libcoin> (beginning to think it is the output from blockchain that is buggy...)
682 2012-08-30 08:52:52 <sipa> that is certainly possible
683 2012-08-30 08:53:20 <sipa> i'll have a look later today
684 2012-08-30 08:53:34 <TD> hey
685 2012-08-30 08:54:32 <libcoin> sipa: thanks
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702 2012-08-30 09:15:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: i should really change ultraprune's name; for some odd reason everyone seems to think that it prunes!
703 2012-08-30 09:15:32 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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722 2012-08-30 09:18:20 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: please try it, it should be significanly faster yes
723 2012-08-30 09:19:53 tsche has joined
724 2012-08-30 09:19:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: not entirely far to compare ultraprune's disk usage by comparing chain.dat + coins.dat to blkindex.dat; you also need the undo data from blocks
725 2012-08-30 09:24:41 <MC-Eeepc> i would like to try it
726 2012-08-30 09:25:09 <MC-Eeepc> waiting on a windows build
727 2012-08-30 09:25:47 Maccer has joined
728 2012-08-30 09:28:26 <sipa> if you follow the link posted by bluematt's build tester on the pull request, you should find a .exe
729 2012-08-30 09:29:12 <sipa> otherwise i can do you a deterministic build with gpg signed checksums (like official releases)
730 2012-08-30 09:32:33 <libcoin> sipa: debugging so far: blockchain.info buggy - signature is not OP_FALSE - debugging continues...
731 2012-08-30 09:33:19 <sipa> libcoin: bitcoind 0.7 has a getrawtransaction
732 2012-08-30 09:33:38 <sipa> libcoin: shouldn't be hard to get the real txin that way
733 2012-08-30 09:35:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: undo data plus chain.dat plus coins.dat is already 450 MB or so
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736 2012-08-30 09:43:09 <MC-Eeepc> i have no idea what you said sipa
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745 2012-08-30 09:52:07 <ErnestoJuarell> Was that new wallet breaking format before 8/2011?
746 2012-08-30 09:54:03 <ErnestoJuarell> I guess testnet doesn't require a new wallet like the real client?
747 2012-08-30 09:56:44 <TD> sipa: i'm running two nodes now on two different machines, one ultraprune and one leveldb
748 2012-08-30 09:57:29 <TD> oh, i patched ultraprune to give the tx/sec rate in ProcessBlock. receiving single blocks doesn't seem much different in speed, oddly, but leveldb was really slow to sync the last part of the chain
749 2012-08-30 09:57:47 * TD should have added more instrumentation
750 2012-08-30 09:58:09 has_many has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
751 2012-08-30 09:58:58 <sipa> TD: with sig checking disabled or not?
752 2012-08-30 09:59:15 <TD> nope, not disabled. it's just regular copies of the branches, downloading from the network
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755 2012-08-30 09:59:27 <TD> the rate calculated in ProcessBlock is obviously not inclusive of network time
756 2012-08-30 09:59:32 <TD> it's a per block rate
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762 2012-08-30 10:15:13 <libcoin> sipa: fixed - had left a check for transactions bigger than 200 in IsPushOnly and was now hit by that :/
763 2012-08-30 10:15:37 <sipa> libcoin: i c
764 2012-08-30 10:17:06 <libcoin> but there was indeed a bug in blockchain.info showing a multisig signature as OP_FALSE
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769 2012-08-30 10:20:39 <sipa> TD: i noticed that at the end of the chain, the messages about committing changed transactions to the database tended to take longer than actually processing the blocks
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776 2012-08-30 10:40:23 <eennaam> i can only ask if nobody is here?
777 2012-08-30 10:40:58 <Joric> no meta-asking
778 2012-08-30 10:41:15 <eennaam> ah , i read it wrong
779 2012-08-30 10:48:49 quellhorst has joined
780 2012-08-30 10:49:24 <quellhorst> does anyone know of code that i can use to check when a transfer has completed?
781 2012-08-30 10:49:28 <quellhorst> like i want to make a website where i take bitcoin payments and activate accounts once payment is recvd
782 2012-08-30 10:50:32 <sipa> quellhorst: listtransactions RPC with a specificied minimum number of confirmations?
783 2012-08-30 10:51:04 <quellhorst> sipa: ok, then what about making a new unique address for people to send the deposit to?
784 2012-08-30 10:51:13 <sipa> of course
785 2012-08-30 10:51:31 <sipa> otherwise you won't know which transaction corresponds to which payment
786 2012-08-30 10:51:45 <quellhorst> is it possible to do this from a system that doesn't have the wallet?
787 2012-08-30 10:51:52 <quellhorst> for security
788 2012-08-30 10:51:57 <ErnestoJuarell> yes
789 2012-08-30 10:52:00 <sipa> you can encrypt the wallet
790 2012-08-30 10:52:13 <sipa> and not bring the passphrase to the systen that checks for incoming payment
791 2012-08-30 10:52:17 <quellhorst> didn't know that was wallet encryption now
792 2012-08-30 10:52:27 <ErnestoJuarell> the site can run on a web server while the wallet is on another server (or even ur home computer)
793 2012-08-30 10:52:35 <quellhorst> ErnestoJuarell: that is what i was thinking
794 2012-08-30 10:52:54 <sipa> don't do that
795 2012-08-30 10:53:03 <quellhorst> so i just need to run bitcoind and send rpc to it?
796 2012-08-30 10:53:04 <quellhorst> sipa: why?
797 2012-08-30 10:53:20 <sipa> because that means an attacker which gets access to your web server, gets access to your wallet
798 2012-08-30 10:53:32 <quellhorst> how so?
799 2012-08-30 10:53:37 <quellhorst> if the wallet isn't even on the server
800 2012-08-30 10:53:45 <ErnestoJuarell> They can get the rpc login
801 2012-08-30 10:53:47 <sipa> as the webserver gets RPC access to the node with the wallet
802 2012-08-30 10:53:54 <sipa> they can use it to send money too
803 2012-08-30 10:54:02 <sipa> of course you can filter the RPC connection
804 2012-08-30 10:54:06 <sipa> that's one viable way
805 2012-08-30 10:54:12 <quellhorst> ok, so back to my first question
806 2012-08-30 10:54:20 <sipa> but imho it's easier to copy the wallet without passphrase to the server
807 2012-08-30 10:54:25 <sipa> as that is perfectly safe
808 2012-08-30 10:54:28 <quellhorst> how do i check without a wallet on the server that i have the right number of confirmations?
809 2012-08-30 10:54:35 <ErnestoJuarell> use rpc
810 2012-08-30 10:54:43 <sipa> don't use RPC, unless you filter it
811 2012-08-30 10:54:53 <quellhorst> right, so rpc to a different bitcoind than has my wallet?
812 2012-08-30 10:54:53 <sturles> df
813 2012-08-30 10:54:57 <sturles> Bah.
814 2012-08-30 10:55:00 <sipa> you put the wallet on the web server, but don't ever transfer the passphrase to the webserver
815 2012-08-30 10:55:05 <sipa> so it cannot ever send money
816 2012-08-30 10:55:12 <sipa> but it can observe incoming transactions
817 2012-08-30 10:55:24 <quellhorst> but if they get the wallet.dat they could try to brute force it?
818 2012-08-30 10:55:28 <sipa> yes
819 2012-08-30 10:55:35 <sipa> so use a strong randomly-generated passphrase
820 2012-08-30 10:56:00 <sipa> if it has 256 bits of entropy, it's as good as the encryption algorithm itself
821 2012-08-30 10:56:03 <quellhorst> i don't see why you can't check confirmations on transactions without even having a wallet
822 2012-08-30 10:56:11 <quellhorst> they blockchain and confirmations are public
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824 2012-08-30 10:56:18 <ErnestoJuarell> you could modify bitcoind as well to increase safety
825 2012-08-30 10:56:20 <sipa> you HAVE the wallet
826 2012-08-30 10:56:34 <quellhorst> should also be able to make a big list of addresses for deposits and store those
827 2012-08-30 10:56:41 <sipa> yup
828 2012-08-30 10:56:54 <sipa> we don't have support for watch-only addresses yet, unfortunately
829 2012-08-30 10:57:03 <quellhorst> so then... that would be much more secure
830 2012-08-30 10:57:10 <quellhorst> no wallet.dat to get on the server to crack
831 2012-08-30 10:57:37 logger__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
832 2012-08-30 10:57:45 <sipa> well wallet.dat is addresses+keys+transactions
833 2012-08-30 10:57:54 <sipa> you want the addresses+transactions part, without the key
834 2012-08-30 10:58:05 <sipa> but the keys are encrypted, in an encrypted wallet
835 2012-08-30 10:58:13 <sipa> so without the decryption key, it's equivalent
836 2012-08-30 10:58:15 <ErnestoJuarell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Lazy_API
837 2012-08-30 10:58:20 <ErnestoJuarell> No wallet needed?
838 2012-08-30 10:58:33 <ErnestoJuarell> uses blockexplorer
839 2012-08-30 10:58:51 <sipa> do you want to rely on BBE for checkinging incoming payments?
840 2012-08-30 10:59:01 <quellhorst> it isn't about being lazy, it is about being safe
841 2012-08-30 10:59:04 <sipa> what if they are down, or when they lie to you?
842 2012-08-30 10:59:06 <quellhorst> no, i can't trust that
843 2012-08-30 10:59:21 <quellhorst> i'd rather setup my own block explorer type webservice
844 2012-08-30 11:00:02 <ErnestoJuarell> just do the secure wallet way.
845 2012-08-30 11:00:18 <ErnestoJuarell> Because of all the features u get with interacting with the wallet
846 2012-08-30 11:00:38 <quellhorst> thanks for the suggestion
847 2012-08-30 11:00:55 <quellhorst> maybe 2 wallets
848 2012-08-30 11:01:08 <quellhorst> hot and cold storage
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850 2012-08-30 11:01:25 <quellhorst> hot wallet would have max BTC and transfer to the cold one
851 2012-08-30 11:01:35 <quellhorst> both with encryption
852 2012-08-30 11:03:19 <ErnestoJuarell> u could also make ur own limited RPC like service
853 2012-08-30 11:03:47 <sipa> yes, filtering the RPC connection is also possible
854 2012-08-30 11:03:52 <sipa> there are tools for that, afaik
855 2012-08-30 11:04:18 <ErnestoJuarell> pre-generate a bunch of deposit addresses offline. The site has that list and will show 1 to the user.
856 2012-08-30 11:04:48 <ErnestoJuarell> then informs wallet via and waits for a confirmation count response.
857 2012-08-30 11:05:30 iocor has joined
858 2012-08-30 11:09:36 <Joric> if only bitcoind supported callbacks...
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900 2012-08-30 12:44:07 <gmaxwell> 02:48 < ErnestoJuarell> I guess testnet doesn't require a new wallet like the real client?
901 2012-08-30 12:44:26 <gmaxwell> er, the mainnet doesn't require a new wallet either.
902 2012-08-30 12:44:35 <ErnestoJuarell> Why not tho? Isn't it the same client with a diff chain?
903 2012-08-30 12:44:42 <gmaxwell> So I'm not sure what you're asking about.
904 2012-08-30 12:44:48 <ErnestoJuarell> I thought it did. It forced migration
905 2012-08-30 12:45:01 <ErnestoJuarell> Had to make a new 1 to support the passphrase
906 2012-08-30 12:45:43 <gmaxwell> Mirgration â yes, if you're using encryption it rebuilds the wallet in order to correct the leaked private key bug.
907 2012-08-30 12:46:01 <gmaxwell> but thats just to get leaked private keys out of the wallet.
908 2012-08-30 12:46:46 npouillard has quit (Quit: leaving)
909 2012-08-30 12:47:31 <gmaxwell> (and testnet and mainnet are no different in their wallet handling)
910 2012-08-30 12:49:02 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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920 2012-08-30 13:40:18 <JFK911> how did we leak private keys
921 2012-08-30 13:40:28 <gmaxwell> huh?
922 2012-08-30 13:40:54 <JFK911> 16:39 <@gmaxwell> ....to correct the leaked private key bug.
923 2012-08-30 13:41:35 <gmaxwell> JFK911: because bdb doesn't actually delete records when you delete them. So if you encrypted a preexisting wallet (some of) the unencrypted keys could remain in the file.
924 2012-08-30 13:41:48 <JFK911> Oh okay.
925 2012-08-30 13:41:56 oneb has left ()
926 2012-08-30 13:42:03 <JFK911> I was almost angry that private keys were once available via network connections and I didn't get any.
927 2012-08-30 13:42:16 <gmaxwell> ...
928 2012-08-30 13:44:49 one_zero has quit ()
929 2012-08-30 13:50:23 <sipa> ?
930 2012-08-30 14:01:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: Almostâ https://people.xiph.org/~greg/bitcoin_coverage/coverage3/coverage/home/gmaxwell/src/bcm/bax/src/script.cpp.gcov.html see line 289/291.
931 2012-08-30 14:02:30 <gmaxwell> (also the pubkey failures are untested)
932 2012-08-30 14:03:24 <sipa> hmm, strange
933 2012-08-30 14:03:42 <gmaxwell> Is the case you intended to hit that really failing at the initial length perhaps?
934 2012-08-30 14:04:17 <gmaxwell> oh look at the failure counts.
935 2012-08-30 14:04:51 <sipa> 9 times too short...?
936 2012-08-30 14:04:58 <sipa> eh, 5 times
937 2012-08-30 14:05:11 <sipa> and 1 S misplaced
938 2012-08-30 14:05:39 <sipa> i should weaken that S len misplaced test just to make sure the later one gets tested :)
939 2012-08-30 14:07:25 * helo is disappointed that he deleted his blocks trying to get around 0.7rc1 'DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery'
940 2012-08-30 14:08:21 <gmaxwell> helo: deleted? :( you could have used loadblock to recover, at a minimum. Although, how'd you end up in that state? Did you cleanly shut down before upgrading?
941 2012-08-30 14:09:00 <helo> i closed the old bitcoin-qt, and then waited until the process was gone, did a 'sync', and then started 0.7rc1
942 2012-08-30 14:09:15 <sipa> did you build either yourself?
943 2012-08-30 14:09:19 <helo> nope
944 2012-08-30 14:09:26 <sipa> what OS?
945 2012-08-30 14:09:34 <helo> i have a backup of my ~/.bitcoin i can retrieve
946 2012-08-30 14:09:35 gfinn has joined
947 2012-08-30 14:09:52 <helo> ubuntu 12.04
948 2012-08-30 14:10:22 <sipa> you may need to use -detachdb before upgrading
949 2012-08-30 14:10:25 <sipa> god i hate BDB
950 2012-08-30 14:10:30 <helo> yeah, apparently
951 2012-08-30 14:11:14 <gmaxwell> it would be quite helpful to know if this is reproducable, and for the sake of getting you goingâ on the copy with the deleted blockchain, if you totally delete the chain and index then ./bitcoin(-qt) -loadblock=/path/to/good/blk000.dat it will rapidly import the chain.
952 2012-08-30 14:11:47 <helo> it will be unfun for people using apt to learn they should have ran -detachdb before upgrading
953 2012-08-30 14:11:57 <sipa> indeed
954 2012-08-30 14:11:59 <helo> let me grab the backup
955 2012-08-30 14:12:20 <sipa> even if ultraprune doesn't get into the next release, i really want to get rid of BDB
956 2012-08-30 14:12:20 <kinlo> isn't there an pre-install script
957 2012-08-30 14:12:36 <kinlo> apt-packages should use the pre-install script to detach
958 2012-08-30 14:12:42 <sipa> kinlo: nope
959 2012-08-30 14:12:47 <sipa> as the database is stored in user data
960 2012-08-30 14:12:53 <sipa> not in a system location
961 2012-08-30 14:13:06 <kinlo> mmmz, true, which marks the 2nd problem
962 2012-08-30 14:13:16 <kinlo> not every user should have their own copy of the blockchain
963 2012-08-30 14:13:20 <sipa> indeed
964 2012-08-30 14:13:32 <kinlo> something setgroupid and a shared location
965 2012-08-30 14:13:39 <sipa> ideally, blockchain/node service running system-wide
966 2012-08-30 14:13:41 <kinlo> I know, it sounds scary :p
967 2012-08-30 14:13:47 <sipa> and wallet services connecting to it
968 2012-08-30 14:14:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm wondering if we shouldn't perhaps do a release cycle which is advertised 'for clients only, not miners or services' which has leveldb+ultraprune; ... chain corruption risk is not that big a deal for end clients.
969 2012-08-30 14:14:32 <kinlo> the ultraprune - besides making your client unable to bootstrap other clients - what will be the disk savings?
970 2012-08-30 14:14:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: i wouldn't mind doing that
971 2012-08-30 14:14:45 <sipa> kinlo: a few hundred MB at least
972 2012-08-30 14:15:00 <sipa> kinlo: after actual pruning is implemented... a lot
973 2012-08-30 14:15:02 <gmaxwell> kinlo: ultraprune does not making your client unable to bootstrap other clients.
974 2012-08-30 14:15:19 <kinlo> oh, the ultrapruning is just to prune indexes?
975 2012-08-30 14:15:27 <sipa> not really
976 2012-08-30 14:15:44 <gmaxwell> it replaces the index with something which is always pruned and which is by itself sufficient to validate blocks.
977 2012-08-30 14:16:06 <gmaxwell> (but not reord or serve old blocks; but it keeps blocks and undo logs which allow these things)
978 2012-08-30 14:16:06 <sipa> it still needs full blocks, but only for serving/rescanning/reorganising
979 2012-08-30 14:16:09 <kinlo> I'd like to see pruning implemented by just deleting all blocks that are older then 1KK blocks, much easier
980 2012-08-30 14:16:21 <sipa> kinlo: that's exactly what ultraprune supports
981 2012-08-30 14:16:37 <kinlo> but that would radically change the way bitcoin works
982 2012-08-30 14:16:38 <gmaxwell> Except for the whole absolutely no network support for that yet.
983 2012-08-30 14:17:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: how do you mean?
984 2012-08-30 14:17:30 <gmaxwell> in any case, I don't think disk storage is the major concern right now; almost everyone who has complained about it has either done so in the context of sync times, or because they're trying to put the chain on a truecrypt volume or usb stick.
985 2012-08-30 14:17:41 <kinlo> sipa: so you would also delete valid unspended transactions? or was my "just delete all blocks older then" not clear?
986 2012-08-30 14:17:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: I mean if you take ultraprunt and delete old blocks, and do this on many nodes you'll break everything.
987 2012-08-30 14:18:08 <sipa> kinlo: ultraprune effectively stores unspent txouts twice
988 2012-08-30 14:18:22 <sipa> kinlo: once in the blocks it keeps, and once in the txout database
989 2012-08-30 14:18:26 <kinlo> oic
990 2012-08-30 14:18:35 <kinlo> well, I was talking about just deleting all of it
991 2012-08-30 14:18:47 <kinlo> transactions not spent in 10 years will probably never be spent at all
992 2012-08-30 14:18:56 <sipa> i might add that the txout set database is 88 Mib right now
993 2012-08-30 14:19:04 <kinlo> it is?
994 2012-08-30 14:19:18 <kinlo> only 88Mib for all unspent transactions?
995 2012-08-30 14:19:20 <sipa> in BDB format is it's twice that, but it contains 88 MB of useful data
996 2012-08-30 14:19:28 <sipa> yes
997 2012-08-30 14:19:37 <kinlo> hmmmz, a lot less then I was expecting
998 2012-08-30 14:19:53 <sipa> in a custom specifically-designed-to-be-compact format
999 2012-08-30 14:20:24 <kinlo> hmmmz, every database format is not going to be compact, if one spends a transaction, there will be a gap
1000 2012-08-30 14:20:45 <kinlo> and unless you re-write the file, or have a new transaction that exactly fills the gap...
1001 2012-08-30 14:20:50 <sipa> yes but the database takes care of that
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1005 2012-08-30 14:21:19 <kinlo> you'll need to rewrite stuff then
1006 2012-08-30 14:21:23 <sipa> yes but the database takes care of that
1007 2012-08-30 14:21:33 <kinlo> you said custom-format :)
1008 2012-08-30 14:21:43 <sipa> the data in the database is custom
1009 2012-08-30 14:21:52 <kinlo> ic
1010 2012-08-30 14:22:02 <kinlo> did you guys choose a database already?
1011 2012-08-30 14:22:11 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1012 2012-08-30 14:22:16 <kinlo> I've seen some discussion about the google bigtables and so on
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1015 2012-08-30 14:23:23 <gmaxwell> kinlo: leveldb unless it turns out to not work out.
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1021 2012-08-30 14:24:36 <gmaxwell> We have patches implementing leveldb now, from TD, but ultraprune is not yet integrated with that.
1022 2012-08-30 14:24:36 <kinlo> ic
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1024 2012-08-30 14:26:05 <TD> sipa is rebasing leveldb on top of ultraprune, i think
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1027 2012-08-30 14:28:41 <t7> ultraprune; immediate relief from constipation
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1030 2012-08-30 14:30:10 <gmaxwell> I hate it when I titter at sophmoric jokes like that, but 'tehe'.
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1032 2012-08-30 14:31:51 <helo> boo, my backup is not in a good state :/
1033 2012-08-30 14:32:12 <helo> good for me, bad for reproducing my error
1034 2012-08-30 14:32:33 <gmaxwell> bad in what way? you can't change the location of the database unless you first ran with detatch.
1035 2012-08-30 14:33:06 <helo> loading up the old client using the backup gives "Db::get: DB_PAGE_NOTFOUND: Requested page not found", and then terminate called after throwing an instance of 'boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<boost::lock_error> >'
1036 2012-08-30 14:34:07 <gmaxwell> helo: are you trying to load it with the same FS path as it originally had?
1037 2012-08-30 14:34:46 <helo> yes. i think the problem is that the backup was made while bitcoin-qt was running
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1041 2012-08-30 14:40:56 <gmaxwell> oh. yea, can't do that.
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1043 2012-08-30 14:43:26 <helo> i should probably quit bitcoin-qt before i leave for the weekend, so it won't be running when my unattended backup runs
1044 2012-08-30 14:44:20 <helo> but i like to think i'm helping the network a little by leaving it up all the time
1045 2012-08-30 14:45:52 Cryo has joined
1046 2012-08-30 14:47:05 <gmaxwell> helo: you probably are. Perhaps make your backup script shut it down?
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1051 2012-08-30 14:51:52 <helo> not a bad idea
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1056 2012-08-30 14:59:47 <Cryo> Diablo-D3, is there a way that -g would also apply to the retry delay if a server drops connection? I'm getting 5 per second reconnect attempts which is probably blacklisting me
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1067 2012-08-30 15:15:26 <Diablo-D3> Cryo: the server shouldnt drop a connection
1068 2012-08-30 15:15:38 <Cryo> it's down :)
1069 2012-08-30 15:15:46 <Diablo-D3> and this is also the behavior every other miner uses
1070 2012-08-30 15:15:50 <Diablo-D3> also, setup a backup pool
1071 2012-08-30 15:15:57 <Diablo-D3> theres zero reason why you dont have one
1072 2012-08-30 15:16:18 <sipa> helo: or use the backupwallet RPC
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1074 2012-08-30 15:19:27 <Cryo> yeh, just that 5x/s * huge number of clients makes socket build/destroy on a server sad, just because the miner port is disconnecting
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1076 2012-08-30 15:20:43 <Cryo> I get not wasting cycles on the client part, just seems rude doing a ddos-like hammer.
1077 2012-08-30 15:23:15 <Diablo-D3> Cryo: well thats the problem
1078 2012-08-30 15:23:17 <Diablo-D3> if the pool is down
1079 2012-08-30 15:23:22 <Diablo-D3> then no connection is actually made
1080 2012-08-30 15:23:31 <Diablo-D3> and you must have several gpus to do 5x/s
1081 2012-08-30 15:25:12 <Cryo> http://pastebin.com/ZUsdwQXu
1082 2012-08-30 15:25:35 <Cryo> try not to laugh too hard at the card. it's sensitive.
1083 2012-08-30 15:25:41 <Diablo-D3> thats just 3 a second
1084 2012-08-30 15:25:47 <Diablo-D3> thats normal
1085 2012-08-30 15:26:42 <Diablo-D3> Cryo: but yes, trying to change the timeout is wrong
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1087 2012-08-30 15:27:20 <Diablo-D3> what you really need to do is just choose a second pool and set it as your backup
1088 2012-08-30 15:28:18 <Diablo-D3> if the server is actually down, then theres no server load you have to worry about
1089 2012-08-30 15:28:23 <Diablo-D3> you just have to worry about lost mining
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1091 2012-08-30 15:30:01 <Cryo> ok. what is -g for then?
1092 2012-08-30 15:30:34 <Diablo-D3> delay between getworks.... but its ignored on any pool that uses longpoll
1093 2012-08-30 15:30:44 <Diablo-D3> including mtred
1094 2012-08-30 15:31:07 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: see http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/ultraprune/0.7.0rc1-25-gef6d9e2/ -> ultraprune builds for windows; warning: use at your own risk; the database format is incompatible, so it will work as if no blockchain was downloaded before, though you can use -loadblock to import the old blk0001.dat file
1095 2012-08-30 15:31:17 <Cryo> ok. thanks
1096 2012-08-30 15:33:04 <Eliel> sipa: I think I'll test that as well. I'm not using my windows system for bitcoin otherwise :)
1097 2012-08-30 15:33:25 <sipa> Eliel: there's a linux build there too, and obviously you can build from source
1098 2012-08-30 15:34:37 enquirer has joined
1099 2012-08-30 15:34:58 <Eliel> it's running :)
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1102 2012-08-30 15:43:32 <keverw> "left the chat room. (*.net *.split)" ??? Everyroom i am in got like 20 of those...
1103 2012-08-30 15:46:00 <Eliel> sipa: it's a netsplit, those happen sometimes.
1104 2012-08-30 15:46:02 <BlueMatt> just means one of the irc servers on the network split off, they'll rejoin eventually
1105 2012-08-30 15:46:07 <Eliel> oops, not sipa, keverw
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1107 2012-08-30 15:46:40 <keverw> o
1108 2012-08-30 15:47:13 <Eliel> first 70k blocks took 12 minutes :)
1109 2012-08-30 15:47:33 <gmaxwell> Eliel: er, thats really slow
1110 2012-08-30 15:47:41 <gmaxwell> Are you syncing from some random peer?
1111 2012-08-30 15:47:55 <Eliel> random peers, yes
1112 2012-08-30 15:48:05 <gmaxwell> s/peers/peer/ it only pulls from one.
1113 2012-08-30 15:48:08 <gmaxwell> OKAY.
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1115 2012-08-30 15:48:49 <Eliel> it does advertise 8 connections though.
1116 2012-08-30 15:49:04 <gmaxwell> Sure.
1117 2012-08-30 15:49:11 <BlueMatt> working on it
1118 2012-08-30 15:49:12 <Eliel> only pulls from one of them? can I switch it on the fly?
1119 2012-08-30 15:49:16 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1120 2012-08-30 15:49:26 <BlueMatt> no
1121 2012-08-30 15:49:33 <BlueMatt> well, yes and no
1122 2012-08-30 15:49:46 <BlueMatt> only one; cant switch
1123 2012-08-30 15:49:48 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it only pulls from one. No, you can't switch. (and if that one goes away it will stop completely until it gets triggered by the next block)
1124 2012-08-30 15:50:02 <Eliel> it seems to be accelerating :P
1125 2012-08-30 15:50:14 <Eliel> 100k blocks done now
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1129 2012-08-30 15:57:52 <Eliel> sipa: I closed it while it was syncing and it crashed on shutdown.
1130 2012-08-30 15:59:40 RV__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1131 2012-08-30 16:00:23 <gmaxwell> hm. crap. I might have seen a crash on shutdown in rc1 while I was chasing the plussed port problem, and ignored it due to tunnel vision on the issue I was chasing.
1132 2012-08-30 16:00:42 <Eliel> well, I saved the debug.log from the run
1133 2012-08-30 16:00:49 jgarzik has joined
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1135 2012-08-30 16:01:14 <Eliel> EnvShutdown exception: DbEnv::close: Invalid Argument (22)
1136 2012-08-30 16:01:34 <Eliel> (this is a build from sipa's link)
1137 2012-08-30 16:01:45 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1138 2012-08-30 16:03:00 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1139 2012-08-30 16:03:27 <gmaxwell> okay that sounds like it would be something new.
1140 2012-08-30 16:05:52 <Eliel> ok, it happened again. Same error, this time with fresh db (I wiped it before restart) and no blocks downloaded (I think I typoed the -connect parameter)
1141 2012-08-30 16:07:10 <Eliel> ok, restarted from a node on my LAN now.
1142 2012-08-30 16:07:17 <Eliel> going to time this :)
1143 2012-08-30 16:07:59 <Eliel> by the way, is 0.7 going to get ultraprune or is this just testing everything works out with other 0.7 changes?
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1150 2012-08-30 16:16:53 <Eliel> doesn't seem noticeably faster even from a local node.
1151 2012-08-30 16:17:08 <Eliel> for the first 70k blocks that is
1152 2012-08-30 16:17:32 <Eliel> well, ok, 3 minutes faster
1153 2012-08-30 16:22:39 usagi has joined
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1166 2012-08-30 16:45:57 <sipa> Eliel: hmm, that shouldn't happen
1167 2012-08-30 16:46:18 setkeh has quit (Quit: Love Linux ?? Come Join us at #linuxdistrocommunity on freenode)
1168 2012-08-30 16:47:18 setkeh has joined
1169 2012-08-30 16:48:19 <sipa> Eliel: a crash is quite possible if you don't have a clean database env before start, though
1170 2012-08-30 16:48:22 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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1175 2012-08-30 16:49:24 <Eliel> sipa: the first run was started on top a data dir left behind by 0.6.3 I think.
1176 2012-08-30 16:49:35 <Eliel> the second one from an empty directory
1177 2012-08-30 16:51:04 setkeh has quit (Client Quit)
1178 2012-08-30 16:51:14 setkeh has joined
1179 2012-08-30 16:51:36 <sipa> Eliel: how long did it take for 70k blocks?
1180 2012-08-30 16:52:18 <sipa> the first blocks are very cheap, so there's little to be gained compared to network overhead
1181 2012-08-30 16:53:22 <sipa> i always test from an empty directory; compatibility/upgrading from the old database scheme is for later
1182 2012-08-30 16:53:29 <sipa> though i would have expected it to work
1183 2012-08-30 16:54:03 t7 has joined
1184 2012-08-30 16:55:11 <sipa> Eliel: here it takes 37s to import 70k blocks, so i wouldn't expect any noticable speedup when network downloading already takes minutes
1185 2012-08-30 16:56:48 <Eliel> sipa: around 9 minutes downloading them from LAN
1186 2012-08-30 16:57:12 <Eliel> this is the windows version on a Win XP system
1187 2012-08-30 16:57:48 <MC-Eeepc> thanks sipa
1188 2012-08-30 16:57:54 <MC-Eeepc> this should be good
1189 2012-08-30 17:00:09 * helo finds the 0.7 console window :D :D
1190 2012-08-30 17:00:25 <helo> very slick Info/Console
1191 2012-08-30 17:00:57 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1192 2012-08-30 17:04:02 Diapolo has joined
1193 2012-08-30 17:07:57 <MC-Eeepc> hm ok this isnt as fast as i had envisaged
1194 2012-08-30 17:08:58 <MC-Eeepc> oh cool this debug window
1195 2012-08-30 17:09:01 <MC-Eeepc> boss
1196 2012-08-30 17:10:03 <Eliel> it's been running for an hour now. 165k blocks done
1197 2012-08-30 17:12:01 <MC-Eeepc> i think this usb drive is just really ahit for running bitcoin off and theres no getting around that
1198 2012-08-30 17:12:34 <MC-Eeepc> is coins.dat the new index
1199 2012-08-30 17:12:36 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1200 2012-08-30 17:13:28 Obsi has joined
1201 2012-08-30 17:13:37 <Eliel> kind of
1202 2012-08-30 17:15:10 <Diapolo> Can someone give me a working Bitcoin Proxy address for testing something?
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1206 2012-08-30 17:16:16 <Diapolo> jgarzik: have you a working BC proxy address by hand I could use for some tests?
1207 2012-08-30 17:16:22 TD has joined
1208 2012-08-30 17:17:16 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: except that it's not an index, but the actual data
1209 2012-08-30 17:17:35 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: chain.dat is the index for the block chain files, but it contains much less than blkindex.dat did
1210 2012-08-30 17:18:02 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1211 2012-08-30 17:19:23 ernest_ has joined
1212 2012-08-30 17:20:01 <MC-Eeepc> ok lets try it with the ssd
1213 2012-08-30 17:21:41 <Diapolo> found one
1214 2012-08-30 17:22:37 [\\\] has joined
1215 2012-08-30 17:23:11 <MC-Eeepc> so whats this new blk00.dat and rev.dat
1216 2012-08-30 17:23:18 ThomasV has joined
1217 2012-08-30 17:23:34 <jgarzik> Diapolo: I have no idea what you're talking about :)
1218 2012-08-30 17:24:15 <Diapolo> jgarzik: I was seeking a proxy server for testing bitcoin-qt via proxy
1219 2012-08-30 17:24:25 <sipa> Diapolo: tor, for example?
1220 2012-08-30 17:24:50 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: blk*.dat contains the blocks, rev*.dat contains undo data for the corresponding blocks
1221 2012-08-30 17:25:15 <Diapolo> sipa: any IPv4 SOCKS Proxy, which is known to work with bitcoin
1222 2012-08-30 17:25:29 <weex> undo data?
1223 2012-08-30 17:25:29 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: install tor. :) You should do that anyways.
1224 2012-08-30 17:25:30 <jgarzik> Diapolo: I never mess around with proxies. I'm too impatient for their slowness.
1225 2012-08-30 17:25:43 <weex> there is no undo in btc
1226 2012-08-30 17:25:48 <sipa> weex: sure there is
1227 2012-08-30 17:26:00 <MC-Eeepc> so what is chain.dat
1228 2012-08-30 17:26:17 <weex> ctrl-z?
1229 2012-08-30 17:26:30 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I just need a working one for doing some tests ^^. But for privacy of course Tor is the way to got, but for now thats overkill.
1230 2012-08-30 17:27:15 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: you'll need tor to test the seperate tor proxy field in any case.
1231 2012-08-30 17:27:36 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: indeed but that tests are way before Tor tests :)
1232 2012-08-30 17:27:56 <sipa> weex: in case of reorganisation, we need to undo the effects of a block on the database state
1233 2012-08-30 17:27:59 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: generally open socks proxies are hard to find because they get abused. :)
1234 2012-08-30 17:28:30 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: too bad ^^ do you know how hard it is to setup Tor in the Windows world?
1235 2012-08-30 17:28:31 <sipa> weex: blkindex.dat had enough data to be able to revert by itself, but coins.dat in ultraprune doesn't
1236 2012-08-30 17:28:52 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: chain.dat is the block chain index
1237 2012-08-30 17:29:05 <weex> oh ok, one more thing to learn a bit about
1238 2012-08-30 17:29:53 <weex> as long as wallet.dat being the only file needed to be backed up to prevent coin loss is still true
1239 2012-08-30 17:30:01 <weex> then that's cool
1240 2012-08-30 17:30:24 <sipa> sure
1241 2012-08-30 17:31:29 nsh has joined
1242 2012-08-30 17:31:29 <sipa> Diapolo: tor will potentially even be faster than an arbitrary open socks proxy you find on the internet
1243 2012-08-30 17:32:32 <weex> bitcoin's speed of development (code and culture) reminds me of an approximation made in plasma physics... electrons move so fast, atoms/ions can be assumed to be static
1244 2012-08-30 17:32:35 <jgarzik> sipa: would you say our walletdb involves a lot of -rewriting- BDB records? or mainly appending new records?
1245 2012-08-30 17:32:44 * jgarzik reviews walletdb.cpp
1246 2012-08-30 17:33:26 <sipa> jgarzik: maybe appending
1247 2012-08-30 17:33:27 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1248 2012-08-30 17:33:30 <sipa> *mainly appending
1249 2012-08-30 17:33:50 MC-Eeepc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1250 2012-08-30 17:33:54 <sipa> only updating the spent bitvector of transactions happens afterwards
1251 2012-08-30 17:34:02 <jgarzik> ok
1252 2012-08-30 17:34:17 <Diapolo> How long are you core devs participating here?
1253 2012-08-30 17:35:20 <sipa> Diapolo: wrote my first patch in februari 2011, joined the dev team in may 2011
1254 2012-08-30 17:36:03 <Diapolo> sometimes I have the impression you guys were there, when the BTC laws were set in stone the first time by god ^^
1255 2012-08-30 17:36:21 Cablesaurus has joined
1256 2012-08-30 17:36:27 <sipa> TD was around very early
1257 2012-08-30 17:36:33 <weex> Diapolo: it's surprising to see how many have come and gone
1258 2012-08-30 17:36:51 <TD> the laws of bitcoin just appeared one day and were set in stone on that day
1259 2012-08-30 17:36:58 <weex> also early on i think hoarding wasn't considered as much as many detractors now assume
1260 2012-08-30 17:37:00 <TD> i happened to find bitcoin by chance a few months after it was released
1261 2012-08-30 17:37:17 <TD> but i didn't have any impact on its development back then
1262 2012-08-30 17:38:35 MC-Eeepc has joined
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1265 2012-08-30 17:39:50 <Diapolo> TD: did I got that straight, you are the google guy?
1266 2012-08-30 17:39:56 <weex> from the logs -dev used to be much more of a chatroom, now it's very technical
1267 2012-08-30 17:39:57 <TD> just a google guy
1268 2012-08-30 17:40:00 <TD> there are more than one of us
1269 2012-08-30 17:40:36 <Diapolo> ^^ surprising
1270 2012-08-30 17:40:50 <gavinandresen> he's being modest, when you type something in to google TD handles it.
1271 2012-08-30 17:41:06 <TD> devrandom is also a googler
1272 2012-08-30 17:41:09 <Diapolo> that's a nice picture in my mind now
1273 2012-08-30 17:41:43 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1274 2012-08-30 17:41:47 <MC-Eeepc> ddg ftw
1275 2012-08-30 17:41:50 <weex> google's dirty little secret: still cpu mining
1276 2012-08-30 17:42:10 <Diapolo> weex: but with their whole datacenters ;)?
1277 2012-08-30 17:42:12 agricocb has joined
1278 2012-08-30 17:44:12 * jgarzik found bitcoin thanks to the initial slashdotting in... 2009? 2010? Jed (of MtGox fame) found it around the same time.
1279 2012-08-30 17:44:27 <jgarzik> July of $YEAR
1280 2012-08-30 17:45:13 * jgarzik doesn't think he's heard the "how gavin discovered bitcoin" story
1281 2012-08-30 17:45:34 <gavinandresen> Really? I'll find the link....
1282 2012-08-30 17:45:36 <weex> 2010 July
1283 2012-08-30 17:46:58 <gavinandresen> May of 2010 I read this article: http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/open-source-innovation-the-cutting-edge-582?page=0,2
1284 2012-08-30 17:47:11 <gavinandresen> .. then got sucked in
1285 2012-08-30 17:47:29 chrisb__ has joined
1286 2012-08-30 17:47:57 da2ce7_d has joined
1287 2012-08-30 17:48:12 <weex> had a used car been actually sold by then for btc?
1288 2012-08-30 17:48:53 <gmaxwell> weex: I tried to sell one a while back and didn't find a buyer, I assumed someone would have by now.
1289 2012-08-30 17:49:03 <jgarzik> there's the new pizza, sold for 10,000 BTC
1290 2012-08-30 17:49:21 <jgarzik> and I've personally given away over 15,000 BTC in bounties
1291 2012-08-30 17:49:50 <jgarzik> (and regret it... those devs did not stick around)
1292 2012-08-30 17:50:02 <Diapolo> jgarzik: I found that kernel development and tweaking was never a good bussiness ^^
1293 2012-08-30 17:50:31 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1294 2012-08-30 17:51:25 <weex> i wonder why devs would ever leave... bitcoin seems to have it all in terms of tech
1295 2012-08-30 17:51:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it seems to me that motivating people with money just really doesn't work. Unless you're going to pay enough to house and feed them the money just encourages a short term 'mercenary' approach.
1296 2012-08-30 17:52:01 <gmaxwell> And so people who would have contributed just for fun stop when the money stops. So weird.
1297 2012-08-30 17:52:16 <sipa> there's this theory even, that paying people to do things moves them from the mindset of "doing it because i like it" to "doing it because i'm paid for it"
1298 2012-08-30 17:52:23 <sipa> except of course when people do need the money
1299 2012-08-30 17:53:02 <jgarzik> yep
1300 2012-08-30 17:53:21 <weex> at least there is the bounty option, it's been fun for small amounts
1301 2012-08-30 17:53:34 <sipa> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
1302 2012-08-30 17:53:55 <jgarzik> bounties definitely don't work, in the bitcoin community
1303 2012-08-30 17:54:26 <gavinandresen> although the weusecoins video was successful. I wonder if justmoon would have done it without a bounty...
1304 2012-08-30 17:54:35 <jgarzik> big bounties work once, then the devs disappear. small bounties are simply too small to be motivating... you wind up getting paid ~$0.50/hour for your work, or something tiny like that.
1305 2012-08-30 17:54:44 <Diapolo> Shouldn't every f___ing open single SOCKS4 proxy allow me to connect somehow to the network?
1306 2012-08-30 17:54:46 <jgarzik> for complex work
1307 2012-08-30 17:54:52 <gavinandresen> I agree bounties don't work for developing features
1308 2012-08-30 17:55:05 <Diapolo> for cgminer they seem to work
1309 2012-08-30 17:55:24 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i suspect they would if they became large enough
1310 2012-08-30 17:55:38 <phantomcircuit> the issue would of course be deciding whether a specific patch was acceptable
1311 2012-08-30 17:55:44 <weex> i've done a couple for getting bitcoind to build on centos and there's a lack of support post-win that probably wouldn't have been a problem if they were just scratching their itch
1312 2012-08-30 17:55:47 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: but the trouble is most things that are worth doing need ongoing care and feeding
1313 2012-08-30 17:55:50 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: 'work' as jeff says, they work once.
1314 2012-08-30 17:56:21 <gmaxwell> You put up a big bounty. You get a patch that at least meets the minimum criteria for the bounty (better set it carefully) then the person goes away.
1315 2012-08-30 17:56:21 <phantomcircuit> not everything
1316 2012-08-30 17:56:30 <phantomcircuit> there's probably a ton of stupid ui things people want done
1317 2012-08-30 17:56:31 <gavinandresen> the ongoing care and feeding is something a lot of techies ignore, and I think we've seen that with a lot of bitcoin projects that don't have a sustainable business model behind them
1318 2012-08-30 17:57:35 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: a lot of those stupid UI thingsâ if done as one shot eventsâ are really just a half hour of work. So you end up with an insane 50 BTC bounty, and sure it gets done. But, meh.
1319 2012-08-30 17:57:36 <Diapolo> Really, has any of you a known-to-work proxy IP (non Tor) I can try to connect to the BC net?
1320 2012-08-30 17:58:02 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: you could have installed tor about 20 times by now.
1321 2012-08-30 17:58:40 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: if you have ssh you can use it as a socks proxy. ssh remotehost -D mysockport
1322 2012-08-30 17:58:49 <Diapolo> <- Windows
1323 2012-08-30 17:59:08 <weex> Diapolo: putty something or other can do that
1324 2012-08-30 17:59:27 <weex> actually just putty
1325 2012-08-30 18:00:00 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: and you don't have cygwin installed? How do you live man?????
1326 2012-08-30 18:00:41 <jgarzik> (RE ongoing care and feeding) indeed. One thing that is so fantastic about bitcoin -- making it really easy to set up a web service that handles money -- is also a curse. Any programmer above the level of "dolt" can write a web service that accepts bitcoins. But maintenance and security are costly, time-wise, and often given little attention.
1327 2012-08-30 18:00:55 <Diapolo> It seems I'm from a very different planet ^^. And I feel so damn stupid for not finding a working proxy address -_-.
1328 2012-08-30 18:01:05 <jgarzik> that's why we see so many hacks of bitcoin websites
1329 2012-08-30 18:01:12 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: don't feel stupid; as I said before people don't leave proxies available.
1330 2012-08-30 18:01:28 <jgarzik> it's easy to set up a web service. far more difficult to secure to the level needed to deter thieves.
1331 2012-08-30 18:01:35 <Diapolo> alright lather this evening I need to look into Tor
1332 2012-08-30 18:01:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well, and the costs are all externalized. You setup some site, it passively poops a reasonable income stream at you as long as you don't maintain it... and when it gets hacked you leave your customers holding the bag.
1333 2012-08-30 18:01:59 <weex> it helped a lot for me to do a reddit post when announcing exchangebitcoins.com, spent several hours hardening after that
1334 2012-08-30 18:02:06 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: it's like.. a two click install, I'm sure. :)
1335 2012-08-30 18:03:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: plus you have the "fools rush in effect", clueful people know how hard doing something well is.. they do the prepwork and analysis and they realize it's not profitable enough to bother.
1336 2012-08-30 18:03:23 <jgarzik> hehehe, true
1337 2012-08-30 18:04:53 <weex> so is that an argument against making deployment of bitcoin-handling websites easier?
1338 2012-08-30 18:04:58 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: next questions will rise in ~3 hours then ^^
1339 2012-08-30 18:05:07 <gmaxwell> weex: Huh?
1340 2012-08-30 18:05:25 <freewil> yes all that combined with the fact that bitcoin service fees are extremely low
1341 2012-08-30 18:05:27 <sipa> Diapolo: install tor browser bundle, check which port it runs on, bitcoind -proxy=127.0.0.1:<thatport>
1342 2012-08-30 18:05:28 <weex> like say i make a framework, a bitcoin-handling website in a box
1343 2012-08-30 18:05:32 <sipa> Diapolo: that's one minute
1344 2012-08-30 18:05:32 <jgarzik> though admittedly sometimes the fools have a point: there is a sweet spot between "it must be perfect before launch!" and "it's easily hacked" sometime syou just have to get it going, get momentum, and fix things after launch.
1345 2012-08-30 18:05:35 <freewil> so if you want to say compete with mt gox you need massive volume
1346 2012-08-30 18:05:42 <weex> you just add your own tables and forms and voila
1347 2012-08-30 18:05:49 <weex> your won custom ones i mean
1348 2012-08-30 18:05:52 <weex> own*
1349 2012-08-30 18:05:54 <Diapolo> sipa: I dl'ded the packake, but it's tv time now ^^
1350 2012-08-30 18:06:00 <sipa> have fun
1351 2012-08-30 18:06:12 <Diapolo> thx :)
1352 2012-08-30 18:06:14 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1353 2012-08-30 18:06:15 <sipa> no idea what a packake is, some sort of cake?
1354 2012-08-30 18:06:19 <sipa> ah, package :D
1355 2012-08-30 18:06:38 <gmaxwell> weex: I have no opinion on that, it's already quite trivial to do it poorly. I don't see how making it any easier could make anything worse.
1356 2012-08-30 18:07:11 <freewil> we need one click e-wallet deploy to heroku ;)
1357 2012-08-30 18:07:26 <weex> ostensibly it would be done with better than average security practies but anyway, i'm not going there personally
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1366 2012-08-30 18:22:29 <Eliel> sipa: the last 8000 blocks appears to be going at a speed of around 2-3 blocks per second.
1367 2012-08-30 18:22:56 <sipa> which block are you at now?
1368 2012-08-30 18:25:21 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1369 2012-08-30 18:25:36 molecular has joined
1370 2012-08-30 18:26:34 <Eliel> block 185541
1371 2012-08-30 18:27:24 CodesInChaos has joined
1372 2012-08-30 18:28:48 keverw has quit (Quit: keverw)
1373 2012-08-30 18:43:35 <MC-Eeepc> well 50000 block and still going strong
1374 2012-08-30 18:43:46 <MC-Eeepc> i wonder if this will keep up once i hit the real shit
1375 2012-08-30 18:44:21 random_cat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1376 2012-08-30 18:44:21 <MC-Eeepc> it does appear to stall for about 3 seconds now and again though
1377 2012-08-30 18:44:38 <sipa> that's probably when it's committing to disk
1378 2012-08-30 18:45:06 <MC-Eeepc> right
1379 2012-08-30 18:45:52 random_cat_ has joined
1380 2012-08-30 18:46:10 eian has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1381 2012-08-30 18:46:25 eian has joined
1382 2012-08-30 18:47:53 <Eliel> coins.dat looks to be 137Mb so far.
1383 2012-08-30 18:48:01 <Eliel> 4444 blocks left :)
1384 2012-08-30 18:48:13 <Eliel> (well, obviously outdated info the moment I said it but :P)
1385 2012-08-30 18:48:22 <sipa> it's 166 MB here (fully synced up)
1386 2012-08-30 18:48:23 <MC-Eeepc> oh damn what happened to the ability to send a message with a txn
1387 2012-08-30 18:48:23 <Eliel> it was a nice "round" number
1388 2012-08-30 18:48:33 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: never existed
1389 2012-08-30 18:48:49 <sipa> unless for send-to-IP transactions
1390 2012-08-30 18:49:12 <MC-Eeepc> oh
1391 2012-08-30 18:49:13 lordcirth has joined
1392 2012-08-30 18:49:20 <MC-Eeepc> thats gone now right
1393 2012-08-30 18:49:34 <sipa> it's been disabled for a long time already
1394 2012-08-30 18:49:42 <MC-Eeepc> thats a shame
1395 2012-08-30 18:49:46 <sipa> and in the Qt GUI it was never implemented
1396 2012-08-30 18:49:50 <sipa> yes and no
1397 2012-08-30 18:49:57 <MC-Eeepc> imagine sending coins directly to merchant.com
1398 2012-08-30 18:49:57 <sipa> it was unsafe, the way it was implemented
1399 2012-08-30 18:50:06 <lordcirth> Just installed bitcoind on Gentoo, emerged fine but crashes immediately on start.
1400 2012-08-30 18:50:08 <MC-Eeepc> fuck you paypal
1401 2012-08-30 18:50:35 <gmaxwell> lordcirth: does it output anything? whats at the end of debug.log? what version is this?
1402 2012-08-30 18:51:16 <lordcirth> gmaxwell: It installed 0.5.6_rc2
1403 2012-08-30 18:51:36 <gmaxwell> 0_o
1404 2012-08-30 18:51:46 * sipa pokes Luke-Jr
1405 2012-08-30 18:51:52 <lordcirth> gmaxwell: I just ran emerge, that's what it chose
1406 2012-08-30 18:51:56 <Luke-Jr> ?
1407 2012-08-30 18:52:13 <sipa> why is 0.5.6_rc2 a default install in gentoo?
1408 2012-08-30 18:52:14 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1409 2012-08-30 18:52:58 <lordcirth> gmaxwell: debug.log http://bpaste.net/show/42885/
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1413 2012-08-30 18:53:33 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: pastebin env?
1414 2012-08-30 18:53:50 <lordcirth> sipa: It has 0.6.0.9 and 0.6.3, but they're masked as unstable
1415 2012-08-30 18:54:23 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: they should be ~arch (testing) at least
1416 2012-08-30 18:54:41 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: http://bpaste.net/show/42886/
1417 2012-08-30 18:54:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: dunno, we asked the arch testers to stabilize 0.6.3 back on Aug 31
1418 2012-08-30 18:55:01 <Luke-Jr> looks like they're twiddling thumbs
1419 2012-08-30 18:55:01 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: Yes, that's what I meant, is testing and unstable different?
1420 2012-08-30 18:55:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: right
1421 2012-08-30 18:55:23 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: I'd consider unstable to be full masked, but meh
1422 2012-08-30 18:55:41 <Luke-Jr> I should get 0.7.0_rc1 up there for testing..
1423 2012-08-30 18:56:09 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: So should I just install 0.6.3, and see if that works?
1424 2012-08-30 18:56:17 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: what do you think of Jan's "marker address" proposal: http://www.bitcoinmonitor.com/static/paper/marker-addresses.pdf Might be a good way of getting both green addresses and a 'return to sender' address....
1425 2012-08-30 18:56:34 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: either way, 0.5.x should be fixed
1426 2012-08-30 18:56:35 <lordcirth> I only need bitcoind for Armory, btw
1427 2012-08-30 18:56:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: you may want to read the forum feedback on it
1428 2012-08-30 18:56:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I think it's horiffic crap. :P
1429 2012-08-30 18:56:49 <gavinandresen> link?
1430 2012-08-30 18:57:18 <gmaxwell> (no disrespect to his writupâ which is fine, but the idea of adding signatures to the blockchain for identification purposes is terrible)
1431 2012-08-30 18:57:47 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: test 0.6.3 just to confirm it has the same problem; also, what boost ver?
1432 2012-08-30 18:58:23 <Luke-Jr> https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/4688 suggests there was such a bug fixed with boost 1.47
1433 2012-08-30 18:58:27 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: What's boost?
1434 2012-08-30 18:58:32 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: a dependency
1435 2012-08-30 18:59:07 <gavinandresen> re: link: never mind, found it (and skimmed it before, I just forgot)
1436 2012-08-30 18:59:20 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: [I] dev-libs/boost 1.48.0-r2
1437 2012-08-30 18:59:24 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1438 2012-08-30 18:59:35 <gmaxwell> Another way of looking at is that with pervasive use marker addreses ~halve the scalability of Bitcoin while simultaniously breaking the transactional privacy.
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1441 2012-08-30 19:00:18 <gmaxwell> We do very much need standard mechenisms for the stated goals though.
1442 2012-08-30 19:00:21 hattorihanzo has joined
1443 2012-08-30 19:00:41 <gavinandresen> Agreed. And we need it soon, or people will start using marker addresses....
1444 2012-08-30 19:00:44 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: did you see my totally crazy detached signature with javascript verification exampl in the thread.
1445 2012-08-30 19:00:56 <gmaxwell> s/\./\?/
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1448 2012-08-30 19:02:19 hattorihanzo has joined
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1452 2012-08-30 19:02:35 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I followed the xiph.org link, how to I see the "guaranteed" javascript?
1453 2012-08-30 19:03:21 <gavinandresen> oh, wait, I see it, hiding under the Hash:
1454 2012-08-30 19:03:41 bitfoo has quit (Excess Flood)
1455 2012-08-30 19:03:56 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8
1456 2012-08-30 19:03:59 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: did you set that?
1457 2012-08-30 19:04:23 <Luke-Jr> I'm not sure why there would be a space in LANG :/
1458 2012-08-30 19:04:47 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: I just uncommented it and ran locale-gen
1459 2012-08-30 19:05:03 * Luke-Jr facepalms
1460 2012-08-30 19:05:12 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: so the idea there is that you can get an 'extended transaction ID' (which might be a url) which also has a signature that you can use for marker purposes.. Then we just need a way to get those signatures to the relevant parties. One way that works for some usage is just just manually shuttle them around.
1461 2012-08-30 19:06:33 bitfoo has joined
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1465 2012-08-30 19:09:13 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: if we can combine it with an only-recipient-can-read-encrypted-message feature than I think that would be a killer feature that would be adopted extremely rapidly.
1466 2012-08-30 19:10:00 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
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1468 2012-08-30 19:10:27 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: actually, there are three features that I want it to solve: 0-confirmation-transaction acceptance. A return-to-sender bitcoin address. And associate-a-message-with-a-transaction.
1469 2012-08-30 19:10:36 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: so that fixed it?
1470 2012-08-30 19:11:10 <gmaxwell> Right, so I think we can do all three of these with a two part solution: "Extended transaction IDs" and "some way to communicate the extended transaction IDs where they need to go"
1471 2012-08-30 19:11:46 <gmaxwell> p2p broadcasting for the latter is not private unless we have addresses which specify a public key to use to encrypt the messagess. :(
1472 2012-08-30 19:11:57 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: while I'm wishing for ponies, I'd like it to work in the push model we have now, where sender and receiver don't have to be both online at the same time.
1473 2012-08-30 19:12:19 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: What, LANG or 0.6.3? Just installed 0.6.3, it crashes with a slightly different error, and no log
1474 2012-08-30 19:12:28 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: LANG
1475 2012-08-30 19:12:56 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: in particular, was it missing from your locale.gen, and did adding it there fix it?
1476 2012-08-30 19:13:02 <gmaxwell> A payment protocol has online problems, and was vigorously disliked by some because they felt it would remove their willful ignorance of the parties being paid.
1477 2012-08-30 19:13:33 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: There is no LANG variable in my /etc/locale.gen
1478 2012-08-30 19:14:01 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: your LANG is set to 'en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8' - is 'en_US.UTF-8' listed (uncommented) in locale.gen?
1479 2012-08-30 19:14:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: how about a bitcoin payment URL, with a field that can specify a public key used ad the destination of extended transaction IDs. Then use p2p flooding for those... open question then being how to prevent it from being a DOS vector.
1480 2012-08-30 19:14:41 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: I uncommented the first 2, "en_US ISO-8859-1" and "en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8"
1481 2012-08-30 19:15:07 <gmaxwell> As far as offline, the way I'd handle is is that when you come online you ask nodes for any messages for you. If they've forgotten it, oh well. If it's being used for 0-confirm then N blocks later it won't matter in any case.
1482 2012-08-30 19:15:22 <gmaxwell> And manually shuttling over the extended transaction id would still work.
1483 2012-08-30 19:15:23 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: ok, and (after locale-gen ran) did that help?
1484 2012-08-30 19:16:00 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: No
1485 2012-08-30 19:16:26 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: your LANG is set to 'en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8' - did you set that yourself somewhere, or did Gentoo?
1486 2012-08-30 19:17:21 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: This is a new install, and I don't remember setting it. I might have during install
1487 2012-08-30 19:17:30 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: try this (exactly on one line): LANG='en_US.UTF-8' bitcoin-qt
1488 2012-08-30 19:17:41 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: bitcoind* ?
1489 2012-08-30 19:17:51 <Luke-Jr> sure, if that's what you were using..
1490 2012-08-30 19:18:12 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: Its running
1491 2012-08-30 19:18:59 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: OK, I don't think spaces are valid in LANG. it might make sense to figure out how that extra " UTF8" got on yours and report a bug with whatever did that (or made you think you should)
1492 2012-08-30 19:19:16 <TD> gmaxwell, gavinandresen: all those use cases are indeed better solved with a real transaction submission protocol
1493 2012-08-30 19:19:16 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: Where is the var set? I forget
1494 2012-08-30 19:19:21 <TD> which we need for many other reasons anyway
1495 2012-08-30 19:19:36 <TD> "buyer broadcasts" doesn't make sense longer term
1496 2012-08-30 19:19:46 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1 seems to suggest it be set in /etc/env.d/02locale
1497 2012-08-30 19:20:45 <TD> where is this proposal thread?
1498 2012-08-30 19:20:48 <gavinandresen> TD: yeah, probably makes sense to solve the "merchant is online 24/7/365" problem first
1499 2012-08-30 19:21:06 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: Right, I followed that guide, I probably typoed
1500 2012-08-30 19:21:07 <gavinandresen> TD: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102517.0
1501 2012-08-30 19:21:17 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: The section right above is similar but different syntax, guess I switched them. Thx
1502 2012-08-30 19:21:24 <TD> nothing stops you emailing somebody a payment. that way you get identity for free anyway
1503 2012-08-30 19:21:25 <Luke-Jr> lordcirth: i c
1504 2012-08-30 19:21:40 <gmaxwell> TD: I'm still not sure how to solve the 'buyer doesn't want to know the identity of the merhant' case... not without going the p2pool messaging network route which is painful.
1505 2012-08-30 19:22:15 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I hate to say this, but a DHT indexed by txid, with entries only allowed if signed by one of the parties involved in the transaction and strictly limited in size, might be a good solution for storing etxids
1506 2012-08-30 19:22:20 <TD> how can you buy from somebody with some kind of identity?
1507 2012-08-30 19:22:28 <TD> you have to contact them, after all
1508 2012-08-30 19:23:15 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: you shouldn't hate to say it. It's sutiable for that sort of thing... though I'm skeptical about DOS resistance, but I could consider that largely someone elses problem.
1509 2012-08-30 19:23:51 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I don't know nuthin about making DoS-resistant DHT's.... is it a problem in practice for (for example) BitTorrent?
1510 2012-08-30 19:24:24 <lordcirth> Luke-Jr: Cool, it works now. thx
1511 2012-08-30 19:24:32 <gmaxwell> TD: Consider the case of a bank. They have a low opinion of their customers and assume that their customers are probably buying a lot of illicit tropical fish. They don't want to know about this when processing payments for cutomers, so they don't want customers plugging in illicittropicalfish.com into a destination box.
1512 2012-08-30 19:24:58 <TD> the point of bitcoin is you don't need banks, so i don't find an argument based on their needs to be very persuasive :-)
1513 2012-08-30 19:25:04 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: they're not generally dos resistant... like all our past dos issues that were never a problem, it all works well primarily because no one attacks. :)
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1515 2012-08-30 19:25:41 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, but when certan bank like services are a major driver for adoption of bitcoin practices its a bit problematic.
1516 2012-08-30 19:25:46 <sipa> TD: well, if they don't support such proposals, they may not get adopted at all in sufficient degree to become widespread
1517 2012-08-30 19:25:48 <TD> at any rate, that bank could just require people to provide addresses
1518 2012-08-30 19:25:53 <TD> or .onion nodes or whatever
1519 2012-08-30 19:26:27 <TD> i guess i don't see what the problem with just POSTing a nice protocol buffer to an SSL endpoint is
1520 2012-08-30 19:26:37 <Luke-Jr> TD: there is no "point" of Bitcoin - it is many things to many people
1521 2012-08-30 19:27:09 <Luke-Jr> widespread adoption requires including people who have many different goals - including people who only want to use webwallets
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1523 2012-08-30 19:29:34 <TD> if you're processing payments on the behalf of somebody else nothing stops you requiring certain level of ID from merchants as well. like not allowing onion addresses as destinations.
1524 2012-08-30 19:30:40 <TD> anyway, seems there's mostly consensus (on the forum) that a protocol is a better solution
1525 2012-08-30 19:30:41 <Luke-Jr> TD: in practice, I think MtGox wants to allow withdrawl to Silk Road but without knowing it
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1527 2012-08-30 19:31:53 <gmaxwell> In any case solving the online merchant thing is the easiest first step. After thats solved a seperate DHT network for communicating ExTxIDs out of band could be used for cases where the merchant is not always online.
1528 2012-08-30 19:32:08 <TD> yeah or just email attachments :-)
1529 2012-08-30 19:32:10 * TD is a big fan of email
1530 2012-08-30 19:33:00 <sipa> o_O
1531 2012-08-30 19:33:05 <sipa> did gmaxwell just suggest using a DHT?
1532 2012-08-30 19:34:05 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: RE: DoS-resistance in an ETxID DHT (ooh! look at all those acronyms!)
1533 2012-08-30 19:34:17 <midnightmagic> O.o
1534 2012-08-30 19:34:28 <TD> email - ubiquitous, private, open, mostly authenticated. only a ~33% size hit!
1535 2012-08-30 19:34:35 <TD> those aren't deals they're steals
1536 2012-08-30 19:34:37 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: if the entries must all be non-double-spent transactions, then you could piggyback somewhat on bitcoin's existing spam-resistance
1537 2012-08-30 19:34:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: mostly in an effort to make it someone elses problem. :)
1538 2012-08-30 19:34:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: haha!
1539 2012-08-30 19:35:45 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'd prefer not to, if we want to use bitcoin for spam resistance I'd prefer to require a low difficulty mining share to add data. The reason for this is we don't want the surprise result of people creating junk transactions just so they can inject messages to use that dht as an IM network. :)
1540 2012-08-30 19:36:33 <gmaxwell> (or at least an either OR so they won't _have_ to create junk txn to send IMs over it)
1541 2012-08-30 19:37:16 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: true...
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1545 2012-08-30 19:39:01 <gmaxwell> in any case, if we have a direct SSL push method, and a standard message format.. then some preexisting dht could be employed by users that ssl push and manual don't work for... and perhaps it doesn't have to solve DOS /spam resistance because it's not worth attacking because it's only one option out of three.
1546 2012-08-30 19:41:49 <gavinandresen> a DHT that required proof-of-work to enter items would be spiffy. (more proof-of-work could mean longer expiration time for data....)
1547 2012-08-30 19:42:34 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1548 2012-08-30 19:42:46 <Luke-Jr> side note: when people suggest proof-of-work to get transactions confirmed, we usually suggest "that's what fees are"
1549 2012-08-30 19:42:53 <gmaxwell> yea, and with bitcoin you can have a dual-value proof of work. e.g. you get the value of anti-spam as well as the value of adding security to the bitcoin network.
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1551 2012-08-30 19:45:08 <MC-Eeepc> did someone say DHT
1552 2012-08-30 19:45:12 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's all about the oppturnity cost of what you've got available. paying 0.0005 btc in fee is not the same thing as doing 0.0005 woth of mining.
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1559 2012-08-30 19:56:05 * jgarzik needs to get around to adding support for HTTP Digest authentication, and make that the default in the cli
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1563 2012-08-30 20:01:47 <amiller> sweet, DHTs
1564 2012-08-30 20:01:51 ernest_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1565 2012-08-30 20:02:07 <sipa> haha
1566 2012-08-30 20:04:09 <TD> huh
1567 2012-08-30 20:04:23 <TD> in java, InetAddress.getAllByName() with sipas dns seed returns a mix of v4 and v6 addresses
1568 2012-08-30 20:04:26 <TD> weird
1569 2012-08-30 20:04:42 <TD> i wonder if there's any way to tell if there's working ipv6 on the box, quickly
1570 2012-08-30 20:04:55 <sipa> try listening on ::1 ?
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1572 2012-08-30 20:05:11 <sipa> meh, that'll just tell you if there's an IPv6 stack
1573 2012-08-30 20:05:15 <sipa> not connectivity
1574 2012-08-30 20:05:34 <Dagger2> try to connect, if it fails try the next address in the list
1575 2012-08-30 20:06:03 <Dagger2> the system will typically sort v4 addresses above v6 addresses if it has no v6 connectivity anyway
1576 2012-08-30 20:06:48 <Dagger2> and you have to have a mechanism to handle unconnectable hosts already, to handle the case of one of the v4 hosts being down
1577 2012-08-30 20:07:25 <TD> sure
1578 2012-08-30 20:07:32 <TD> obviously it's not causing problems
1579 2012-08-30 20:07:39 <TD> it's just weird. and i guess could be a slowdown
1580 2012-08-30 20:07:44 <TD> if I use "dig" i don't see any
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1582 2012-08-30 20:08:10 <Dagger2> that's because dig queries for an A record by default; add AAAA to the command line and it will
1583 2012-08-30 20:08:13 <Dagger2> or use `host`
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1589 2012-08-30 20:09:12 <Luke-Jr> Gentoo bitcoin overlay updated with 0.7.0_rc1
1590 2012-08-30 20:09:51 mad7scientist is now known as Mad7Scientist
1591 2012-08-30 20:11:20 <sipa> TD: use dig -t ANY
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1596 2012-08-30 20:15:20 <jgarzik> or just 'dig dns.name. any'
1597 2012-08-30 20:16:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: while you're add it, you should make it autofill the auth configuration if there isn't one already. (daemons like bind and chrony do this IIRC)
1598 2012-08-30 20:16:59 <gmaxwell> There was some reason why this was somewhat hard that I can't remember now. :-/
1599 2012-08-30 20:18:10 * Luke-Jr uses: dig ANY dns.name
1600 2012-08-30 20:18:12 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1601 2012-08-30 20:20:49 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1602 2012-08-30 20:21:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: define autofill
1603 2012-08-30 20:22:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: setup auth keys on initial startup if there are none.
1604 2012-08-30 20:23:14 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: thoughts on building another RC somewhat soon? The progressive port problem patch that went in (testnet is almost unusable right now) and wumpus' quoting fix in 1758 are mildly important fixes.
1605 2012-08-30 20:23:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: we already generate a sample rpcuser/pass combo if none exists (but admittedly the user must then create/edit bitcoin.conf with that data)
1606 2012-08-30 20:23:57 <gmaxwell> yea, I added the code to do that.
1607 2012-08-30 20:24:13 * jgarzik isn't sure he wants to tread into the realm of bitcoin.conf updating
1608 2012-08-30 20:24:52 <sipa> we could have a "Seems you don't have authentication info in bitcoin.conf. Running with this temporary username/password: ...."
1609 2012-08-30 20:25:00 <gmaxwell> also, I was momentarily stupid and thought that digest auth was going to mean having a non-plaintext key in the config, thus complicating setting it up.. So ignore me.
1610 2012-08-30 20:25:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: but then the next invocation of bitcond wouldn't work. kinda confusing.
1611 2012-08-30 20:26:08 <sipa> or use a unix socket by default
1612 2012-08-30 20:26:12 LolcustBackup has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1613 2012-08-30 20:26:46 <sipa> at least on non-Redmont OS'es
1614 2012-08-30 20:27:39 <gmaxwell> six months from now we'll have reinvented xauth. ;)
1615 2012-08-30 20:28:10 <sipa> let's just run as a ssh server
1616 2012-08-30 20:28:24 LolcustBackup has joined
1617 2012-08-30 20:28:41 osmosis has joined
1618 2012-08-30 20:28:52 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: RE: rc2: agreed, an rc2 fairly soon is a good idea. Maybe Monday (give weekend warriors a chance to upgrade/test)
1619 2012-08-30 20:29:42 <sipa> bah again a report of a corrupted bdb
1620 2012-08-30 20:29:59 michaelmclees has joined
1621 2012-08-30 20:30:33 <michaelmclees> suppose the network hash rate were 250TH, is there a formula to find difficulty?
1622 2012-08-30 20:31:30 <sipa> 250*10^12 hashes per second, means 1.5*10^17 hashes per 10 minutes
1623 2012-08-30 20:31:49 <sipa> difficulty 1 corresponds to 2^32 hashes per block, and we want one block per 10 minutes
1624 2012-08-30 20:32:06 <sipa> so 250*10^12 * 600 / 2^32
1625 2012-08-30 20:32:12 <gmaxwell> 35 million.
1626 2012-08-30 20:32:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Monday? working on Labor Day should be a crime
1627 2012-08-30 20:32:24 <jgarzik> ;p
1628 2012-08-30 20:32:25 <gmaxwell> am I right?
1629 2012-08-30 20:32:28 <sipa> yes
1630 2012-08-30 20:32:32 <gmaxwell> woot.
1631 2012-08-30 20:32:34 <michaelmclees> perfect. thank you
1632 2012-08-30 20:32:51 <sipa> 34924064
1633 2012-08-30 20:33:04 <sipa> assuming a steady state (which won't be the case)
1634 2012-08-30 20:33:13 davout has joined
1635 2012-08-30 20:33:13 davout has quit (Changing host)
1636 2012-08-30 20:33:13 davout has joined
1637 2012-08-30 20:33:42 <MC-Eeepc> thousands of gpu miners just got chills
1638 2012-08-30 20:34:02 <michaelmclees> i made an order for some butterfly asics
1639 2012-08-30 20:34:28 <michaelmclees> im assuming when i get them, the network will look like 250TH at the worst
1640 2012-08-30 20:34:34 <kjj_> I almost did. decided not to float them a loan for 2 months and wait until they are ready to ship
1641 2012-08-30 20:35:15 <kjj_> michaelmclees: their Mhash/sec per dollar is ~30 times what you can get out of a GPU. I'd target difficulty for about 70 million, not 35
1642 2012-08-30 20:35:18 Maccer has joined
1643 2012-08-30 20:35:37 <MC-Eeepc> im surprised that confirmed orders arnt being resold for like 6x value
1644 2012-08-30 20:35:48 <gmaxwell> kjj_: but we'll also lose rate by removing botnets and most casual miners.
1645 2012-08-30 20:36:02 <MC-Eeepc> given the coin to be made from being the first to switch on an asic rig
1646 2012-08-30 20:36:07 <midnightmagic> And most likely all of the low- to mid-range GPU miners.
1647 2012-08-30 20:36:12 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: don't overestimate the value of a BFL preorder.
1648 2012-08-30 20:36:34 <kjj_> gmaxwell: I don't see how we lose more than the total network hashing power that we have right now if those people drop out.
1649 2012-08-30 20:36:39 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: what happens if they have flawed masks and their first asic spin is non-viable, leaving them bankrupt?
1650 2012-08-30 20:37:03 Diapolo has joined
1651 2012-08-30 20:37:13 <kjj_> and that would put the difficulty at ~67.5 million, still far north of 35
1652 2012-08-30 20:37:13 <MC-Eeepc> lots of people lose lots of money
1653 2012-08-30 20:37:19 <MC-Eeepc> welcome to bitcoin
1654 2012-08-30 20:37:41 <midnightmagic> lol 500TH..
1655 2012-08-30 20:37:48 Diapolo has quit (Client Quit)
1656 2012-08-30 20:37:59 Diapolo has joined
1657 2012-08-30 20:38:08 <MC-Eeepc> i was hoping jalapenos would replace the casual miners :(
1658 2012-08-30 20:38:08 <kjj_> my numbers are probably high. that is intentional. I don't want to get caught short
1659 2012-08-30 20:38:12 <gmaxwell> kjj_: some fraction of the current will drop out, some other fraction will upgrade. The upgrading fraction may get your 30x boost, but the other fraction goes to zero. You can only guess at the fractions, you can set it to get almost any number.
1660 2012-08-30 20:38:48 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: I'm just saying, there are factors that complicate the ROI analysis which are why someone wouldn't buy a preorder at some multiple.
1661 2012-08-30 20:38:49 <michaelmclees> but even at 500TH, their little jalepeno will still pay for itself in less than a year right?
1662 2012-08-30 20:38:53 <Diapolo> <- made aTor Proxy connection to the network *arrr*
1663 2012-08-30 20:39:06 <michaelmclees> assuming $ to BTC stays the same
1664 2012-08-30 20:39:08 <sipa> aight matey
1665 2012-08-30 20:39:12 <michaelmclees> or you pay with BTC today
1666 2012-08-30 20:39:14 <jgarzik> michaelmclees: mining provides rapidly diminishing returns, in practice
1667 2012-08-30 20:39:21 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1668 2012-08-30 20:39:23 <michaelmclees> sure
1669 2012-08-30 20:39:27 <jgarzik> sipa: "matey"? so you _are_ pirateat40 after all
1670 2012-08-30 20:39:37 pnicholson has joined
1671 2012-08-30 20:39:43 <sipa> *woops*
1672 2012-08-30 20:39:46 <kjj_> gmaxwell: true, but I won't risk much money unless the numbers still work near the upper bound of my estimate.
1673 2012-08-30 20:39:55 <michaelmclees> but with 500TH, is difficulty about 70 million?
1674 2012-08-30 20:39:59 <midnightmagic> michaelmclees: Not at current prices.
1675 2012-08-30 20:40:29 <jgarzik> I think the network stable-state will settle at slightly-unprofitable for miners
1676 2012-08-30 20:40:41 <sipa> really?
1677 2012-08-30 20:40:43 <sipa> i doubt that
1678 2012-08-30 20:40:49 <midnightmagic> That hasn't been the historical case.
1679 2012-08-30 20:40:53 <sipa> at least, for some miners
1680 2012-08-30 20:40:59 <jgarzik> in pure terms of hardware purchase vs. payback, at least
1681 2012-08-30 20:41:19 <jgarzik> other incentives will exist -- a "bitcoin bank" would want some mining capacity, even at a slight loss, for example
1682 2012-08-30 20:41:21 jercos has joined
1683 2012-08-30 20:41:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's mostly been hovering at midly profitable for reasonably efficient miners and thats _with_ the participation of botnets. Which is almost a bit puzzling because the anticipation of increased coin value would justify closer to non-profitablity.
1684 2012-08-30 20:41:47 <michaelmclees> according to the calculator, if you buy a jalepeno and you get it when the difficulty is already at 70 million, you'll make 1.53BTC per month
1685 2012-08-30 20:41:47 <jgarzik> their gain is the ability to publish their own transactions, and other peripheral mining attributes
1686 2012-08-30 20:41:50 <jgarzik> that have value
1687 2012-08-30 20:41:52 <midnightmagic> That might be the case for miners just entering; not for longer-term miners.
1688 2012-08-30 20:42:01 <kjj_> michaelmclees: I don't thave the ratio of hashrate to difficulty at hand. I don't pay much attention to the hash rate, just the difficulty
1689 2012-08-30 20:42:15 <jgarzik> Because the value of being a miner may be > purely your BTC income from mining
1690 2012-08-30 20:42:28 <jgarzik> other bitcoin entities will find value in a strong network, even at a BTC-loss
1691 2012-08-30 20:42:59 <sipa> kjj_: easy rule: network hash speed in MH/s divided by 7
1692 2012-08-30 20:43:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think that the fact that mining can pay is too mentally distorting for people to find value in anything else.
1693 2012-08-30 20:43:11 <jgarzik> GPUMAX-like entities may be > 100% for special features or targeted hashing
1694 2012-08-30 20:43:12 <midnightmagic> michaelmclees: It's easier than that. (3.5GH/500TH)*3600(coins/day)*30.5(days/month)*$11USD
1695 2012-08-30 20:43:19 <midnightmagic> michaelmclees: That calculator is assuming current reward.
1696 2012-08-30 20:43:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: right now, agreed. 3+ years in the future, not so much
1697 2012-08-30 20:43:56 <MC-Eeepc> i think long term mining will pretty much end up in Iceland
1698 2012-08-30 20:44:00 <kjj_> sipa: thanks, good to know. that fits with the very approximate number I had in mind for hashrate
1699 2012-08-30 20:44:07 <MC-Eeepc> dat cold climate, dat geothermal
1700 2012-08-30 20:44:13 <jgarzik> MC-Eeepc: with ASICs, heat is less an issue
1701 2012-08-30 20:44:14 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: e.g. when people show up and say they'd like to try out mining and don't care if it makes them any money people are absolutely brutal towards them for considering cpu mining.
1702 2012-08-30 20:44:49 <MC-Eeepc> asics can put out the same heat as a gpu, but with many more hases to show for it
1703 2012-08-30 20:45:33 <MC-Eeepc> i want radiators for my house that are basically just 3 square meters of mining asics
1704 2012-08-30 20:45:40 <osmosis> or a large entity could corner the market with superior hashing technology they keep to themselves.
1705 2012-08-30 20:45:47 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: more of the total lifetime cost of those devices is paying back the initial NRE that went into building them, as they're not sold in millions quantities like gpus.
1706 2012-08-30 20:45:58 <gmaxwell> osmosis: there is no such duck really.
1707 2012-08-30 20:46:11 <midnightmagic> osmosis: That would destroy confidence and thus value, and whatever roi calculations they did would fail.
1708 2012-08-30 20:46:12 <Diapolo> sipa: when using a SOCKS5 proxy, how does a node get addresses to connect to? via DNS Seeds?
1709 2012-08-30 20:46:31 <gmaxwell> osmosis: at least once the bridge to standard cell asics on current process is crossed only the regular cadance of silicon improvements really makes any difference.
1710 2012-08-30 20:46:33 <MC-Eeepc> thats what i mean could asics become so cheap as to be ubiquitous
1711 2012-08-30 20:47:17 * jgarzik finds it interesting that GPUMAX has suspended payouts
1712 2012-08-30 20:47:32 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: I'd hypothesized that someday your drier would be the most powerful computer in your home. Though mining switching to specialized hardware sort of takes it out of a factor for my on demand computing thinking.
1713 2012-08-30 20:47:34 <jgarzik> for a while, I seriously considered setting up a GPUMAX-like service
1714 2012-08-30 20:47:47 <jgarzik> if run by a non-shady entity, it has value
1715 2012-08-30 20:48:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: because finney attacks aren't cheap enough currently? :-/
1716 2012-08-30 20:48:08 <TD> the point of mining is to vote
1717 2012-08-30 20:48:21 <TD> it's bad for the same reason vote buying is bad in a democrac
1718 2012-08-30 20:48:29 <amiller> do you think some people will mine because of the thrill and uncertainty? it's a bit like a lottery, depending on how you play it
1719 2012-08-30 20:48:44 <amiller> even if on average it's sub-profitable or nearly-breakeven
1720 2012-08-30 20:48:50 <gmaxwell> amiller: thats why pirate claimed in here gpumax was for. for people to buy mining to gamble.
1721 2012-08-30 20:48:53 <MC-Eeepc> better than slots....
1722 2012-08-30 20:48:57 <sipa> Diapolo: same way as otherwise (-addnode, hardcoded seednodes, peer exchange, irc if enabled), but instead of doing a DNS lookup of the seed host name, it connects directly P2P-wise to the DNS hostname via the proxy, requests peers, and disconnects
1723 2012-08-30 20:49:23 <amiller> it's the responsibility of whoever purchases the mining 'lotto tickets' to do the verification
1724 2012-08-30 20:49:25 <sipa> s/DNS hostname/seed hostname/
1725 2012-08-30 20:49:41 <Diapolo> sipa: alright, so the basic Tor proxy version seems to work now for me
1726 2012-08-30 20:50:17 <sipa> Diapolo: try -connect=kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion ?
1727 2012-08-30 20:50:48 <Diapolo> sipa: sure and can you take a look at https://github.com/Diapolo/bitcoin/commit/93a5906948d96538af021eecf8971460dc619715
1728 2012-08-30 20:50:53 <Diapolo> sipa: test or main?
1729 2012-08-30 20:50:56 <sipa> main
1730 2012-08-30 20:50:56 Obsi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1731 2012-08-30 20:51:31 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1732 2012-08-30 20:51:40 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: if my onion node is both test and main: 6hgmaxwellgpv2oe.onion
1733 2012-08-30 20:53:58 <Diapolo> I can -connect= to both, right?
1734 2012-08-30 20:54:20 <sipa> yes
1735 2012-08-30 20:54:37 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1736 2012-08-30 20:55:14 <Diapolo> seems like I'm online
1737 2012-08-30 20:55:29 <sipa> hmm, my vps node seems to have canonical checks enforced for mempool transactions
1738 2012-08-30 20:55:44 <sipa> and it continuously bans peers for it :S
1739 2012-08-30 20:55:51 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I'm connected, getpeerinfo shows this
1740 2012-08-30 20:55:55 <sipa> Diapolo: nice
1741 2012-08-30 20:56:02 <Diapolo> sipa: you are the 0.6.99 node? ^^
1742 2012-08-30 20:56:27 <sipa> going to restart my node now
1743 2012-08-30 20:56:36 <Eliel> ooh, 55 blocks left
1744 2012-08-30 20:56:39 <Eliel> almost synced!
1745 2012-08-30 20:56:55 <Eliel> speed is down to block per second now
1746 2012-08-30 20:57:02 <Eliel> if even that
1747 2012-08-30 20:58:36 <sipa> Eliel: is your CPU maxed out?
1748 2012-08-30 20:59:11 <Diapolo> sipa: how can that be, now the subver string is gone?
1749 2012-08-30 20:59:25 <sipa> Diapolo: ?
1750 2012-08-30 20:59:43 <Diapolo> "addr" : "kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion","services" : "00000000","lastsend" : 1346359963,"lastrecv" : 1346359963,"conntime" : 1346359963,"version" : 0,"subver" : "","inbound" : false,"releasetime" : 0,"startingheight" : -1,"banscore" : 1
1751 2012-08-30 20:59:54 <Eliel> sipa: no, not even close.
1752 2012-08-30 21:00:10 <sipa> Eliel: good
1753 2012-08-30 21:00:19 <sipa> Eliel: means there is room for improvement :)
1754 2012-08-30 21:00:29 <sipa> Diapolo: still?
1755 2012-08-30 21:00:45 <Eliel> after the sync started slowing down. That is, after around 150k blocks, CPU usage was less and less.
1756 2012-08-30 21:00:55 <Diapolo> sipa: "addr" : "kjy2eqzk4zwi5zd3.onion","services" : "00000001","lastsend" : 1346360070,"lastrecv" : 1346360073,"conntime" : 1346359999,"version" : 60002,"subver" : "/Satoshi:0.7.0/","inbound" : false,"releasetime" : 0,"startingheight" : 7898,"banscore" : 0
1757 2012-08-30 21:00:57 <Eliel> in the beginning it was close to maxed out constantly
1758 2012-08-30 21:01:14 <Eliel> which I found strange, considering it was only processing 100 blocks per second, on average
1759 2012-08-30 21:01:17 <sipa> Diapolo: so you just did the getpeerinfo right when you connected to me, but before version messages had been exchanges
1760 2012-08-30 21:01:50 <Diapolo> sipa: I used getpeerinfo 3 times, the first was 0.6.99 then 0 and now 0.7.0 did you do a rolling upgrade ^^?
1761 2012-08-30 21:02:12 <sipa> Diapolo: i shut down, upgraded, and started again
1762 2012-08-30 21:02:18 <sipa> and you automatically reconnected
1763 2012-08-30 21:02:21 <Diapolo> sipa: that explains it ^^
1764 2012-08-30 21:02:52 <sipa> the version information you see in getpeerinfo is just what's exchanged at connection time anyway
1765 2012-08-30 21:03:15 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
1766 2012-08-30 21:04:04 <Diapolo> so it is not a live query?
1767 2012-08-30 21:04:05 <Eliel> sipa: now it went out of sync again. Keeps saying 1 block left but doesn't seem to be doing anything.
1768 2012-08-30 21:04:22 <sipa> Diapolo: no
1769 2012-08-30 21:04:49 <sipa> Eliel: hmm
1770 2012-08-30 21:04:58 eennaam has left ()
1771 2012-08-30 21:05:11 <sipa> i think bitcoin-qt just says out of sync if the latest block is more than half an hour old or something
1772 2012-08-30 21:05:14 <sipa> or maybe longer
1773 2012-08-30 21:05:16 <sipa> ;;bc,tslb
1774 2012-08-30 21:05:17 <gribble> Time since last block: 8 minutes and 17 seconds
1775 2012-08-30 21:05:23 michaelmclees has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1776 2012-08-30 21:05:52 <Eliel> sipa: it's also one block behind compared to my other node running 0.6.3
1777 2012-08-30 21:07:31 <sipa> Eliel: wait till next block, i guess
1778 2012-08-30 21:08:14 <Eliel> also, we need stable builds with the debug window thing :) it's too useful not to have :P Well, mostly on windows. I can use bitcoind commandline even with bitcoin-qt on linux easily.
1779 2012-08-30 21:09:01 ovidiuso1t has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1780 2012-08-30 21:09:08 <sipa> Eliel: as soon as 0.7.0 is out of RC, sure
1781 2012-08-30 21:10:39 <Diapolo> out of sync warning is shown until blocks we have is >= blocks medium of other nodes claim to have
1782 2012-08-30 21:13:25 <Eliel> Diapolo: it vanished for a while, then returned
1783 2012-08-30 21:13:44 <Eliel> so, it was synced for a little while.
1784 2012-08-30 21:14:02 <Diapolo> yeah, when a new block is on the network, which you don't yet have downloaded for example
1785 2012-08-30 21:14:23 <gmaxwell> that doesn't sound right.
1786 2012-08-30 21:14:27 <Diapolo> or if you connect to more / other nodes, which have more blocks, than you have
1787 2012-08-30 21:14:41 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: why?
1788 2012-08-30 21:14:44 <gmaxwell> the ' other nodes claim to have' only happens at connect time. So you can't fall behind relative to that.
1789 2012-08-30 21:14:53 <gmaxwell> (except by changing all your peers)
1790 2012-08-30 21:15:13 chrisb__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1791 2012-08-30 21:15:36 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1792 2012-08-30 21:15:59 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: at least the estimated number of blocks value changes, I didn't know my first thing is false, because it only happens on initial connection, so sorry
1793 2012-08-30 21:17:41 <gmaxwell> I wonder why Eliel hasn't pulled the missing blocks however.
1794 2012-08-30 21:20:26 <Diapolo> is it possible to connect to IPv6 peers via the Tor Proxy?
1795 2012-08-30 21:21:01 <sipa> no
1796 2012-08-30 21:21:12 <sipa> (afaik)
1797 2012-08-30 21:21:28 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: no, tor can't do that yet.
1798 2012-08-30 21:22:02 <Diapolo> I saw that in the Tor logs, that a connect to "2001:838:328:1:224:7eff:fe6a:9a6c" failed ...
1799 2012-08-30 21:23:11 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: tor is just starting on ipv6 support, it supports ipv6 for client<>bridge links, but doesn't yet support conencting to v6 remote hosts.
1800 2012-08-30 21:23:54 <Diapolo> Are you alway and only using Tor with Bitcoin (for the everyday use not while developing)?
1801 2012-08-30 21:23:57 <Diapolo> +s
1802 2012-08-30 21:24:32 iocor has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1803 2012-08-30 21:25:42 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: I use tor and regular IPv4.
1804 2012-08-30 21:26:25 <sipa> my vps is reachable via tor, ipv4 and ipv6, but has no wallet
1805 2012-08-30 21:26:51 <sipa> at home, mostly just ipv4
1806 2012-08-30 21:28:23 <gmaxwell> I would generally recommend anyone that wants privacy to use tor exclusively for normal operations.
1807 2012-08-30 21:30:19 <Eliel> sipa: the node is now 4 blocks behind, still saying out of sync.
1808 2012-08-30 21:30:30 <Eliel> it knows there's 4 blocks it's missing though
1809 2012-08-30 21:30:50 <Eliel> so it's syncing but not syncing :)
1810 2012-08-30 21:30:50 Obsi has joined
1811 2012-08-30 21:31:18 <gmaxwell> Eliel: whats the debug log say?
1812 2012-08-30 21:31:34 <sipa> weird, my vps is syncing from scratch now
1813 2012-08-30 21:31:47 <sipa> and it gets long chains of blocks downloaded twice
1814 2012-08-30 21:32:02 <sipa> which shouldn't ever happen
1815 2012-08-30 21:32:12 <Diapolo> Isn't there a problem, when a node I'm downloading from goes away... so if that is the case here!?
1816 2012-08-30 21:36:09 cheako has joined
1817 2012-08-30 21:36:20 <Diapolo> Btw. is gribble sleeping?
1818 2012-08-30 21:36:33 <sipa> ;;are you asleep?
1819 2012-08-30 21:36:33 <gribble> Error: "are" is not a valid command.
1820 2012-08-30 21:36:37 <Luke-Jr> ^ no
1821 2012-08-30 21:38:52 <Eliel> sipa: http://pastebin.com/BdyQBrv1
1822 2012-08-30 21:39:47 <Diapolo> Luke-Jr: Where is my thank you for splitting the 1stclass removal pull ^^?
1823 2012-08-30 21:40:23 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: thanks for trying âº
1824 2012-08-30 21:41:13 <Diapolo> Eliel: I get that socket select error 10022 very often too.
1825 2012-08-30 21:43:43 iocor has joined
1826 2012-08-30 21:45:06 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1827 2012-08-30 21:45:27 * Luke-Jr stabs 15yTy2CYLk1EEzAzUkTUR2HghPwPLWivGP
1828 2012-08-30 21:45:53 <gmaxwell> hm?
1829 2012-08-30 21:46:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: they're flooding 0.25 BTC txns
1830 2012-08-30 21:47:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sounds like a case for the duplicate output rate limiting.
1831 2012-08-30 21:47:40 <gmaxwell> holy crap there are a lot of these.
1832 2012-08-30 21:48:32 <sipa> it's been so long since I did a full block sync over network, that i forgot how terrible our procedure is
1833 2012-08-30 21:49:15 <sipa> oh reverse header sync, how i long for thee
1834 2012-08-30 21:49:21 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1835 2012-08-30 21:49:56 <Diapolo> But the number of transactions for that address is not considered DoS like or?
1836 2012-08-30 21:50:17 Guest21064 has joined
1837 2012-08-30 21:50:25 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: I imagine it is
1838 2012-08-30 21:50:30 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: the system ignores that, because it assumes that dos attackers won't be so stupid as to just reuse an output.
1839 2012-08-30 21:51:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: even still, I imagine it's hitting the free tx relay limits in place
1840 2012-08-30 21:52:18 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104630.new < here is the cause.
1841 2012-08-30 21:52:43 <sipa> i really don't get it, i'm continuously seeing duplicate blocks, orphan blocks, stalls, ...
1842 2012-08-30 21:52:56 <sipa> i'm sure being patient would suffice
1843 2012-08-30 21:53:13 <sipa> but it's certainly not syncing as cleanly as it should be
1844 2012-08-30 21:53:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC what happens is that a new block on the network happens while you sync and then you go off trying to fetch from that..
1845 2012-08-30 21:53:17 <freewil> Think of it as a lottery where the edge is on your favor. <-- sounds legit
1846 2012-08-30 21:53:29 <midnightmagic> satoshidiceclonespam
1847 2012-08-30 21:53:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: interesting
1848 2012-08-30 21:54:08 [\\\] has joined
1849 2012-08-30 21:54:35 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: its yet another outsourced blockchain dos attack. :(
1850 2012-08-30 21:54:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I was googling the origin coins >_<
1851 2012-08-30 21:54:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: think you can edit the post?
1852 2012-08-30 21:55:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I ... actually went to the gambling forum to look for a top post.
1853 2012-08-30 21:55:09 <midnightmagic> wtf dooglus
1854 2012-08-30 21:55:09 <Luke-Jr> lol
1855 2012-08-30 21:55:50 <sipa> midnightmagic: ?
1856 2012-08-30 21:56:00 * midnightmagic considers an rpc interface for tx match banning
1857 2012-08-30 21:56:02 <gmaxwell> Now if only y'all hadn't poopooed my notion of ratelimiting duplicated txins/txouts.
1858 2012-08-30 21:56:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104630.msg1147512#msg1147512
1859 2012-08-30 21:56:25 <midnightmagic> sipa: He put a script suggestion on how to spam out 0.25 txn.
1860 2012-08-30 21:57:01 denisx has joined
1861 2012-08-30 21:57:13 <Luke-Jr> do I really need to write a "blockaddress" RPC? -.-
1862 2012-08-30 21:57:54 <Diapolo> even if it's not all that nice from dooglus, it's no magic code to DoS us ...
1863 2012-08-30 21:58:02 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: really, this pattern calls for the duplicated txin/txout rate limiting; its much more elegant than some kind of lossly blacklisting.
1864 2012-08-30 21:58:11 <midnightmagic> no, I just didn't think dooglus was the pro-satoshidice type.
1865 2012-08-30 21:58:32 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you haven't been following his painstaking satoshidice analysis?
1866 2012-08-30 21:58:38 <TD> sipa: yeah i've seen that a lot too
1867 2012-08-30 21:58:39 <midnightmagic> apparently not.
1868 2012-08-30 21:58:44 <TD> sipa: the orphan blocks during download
1869 2012-08-30 21:59:11 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Well I think I saw it, but I obviously didn't read close enough to learn he would willingly participate in it.
1870 2012-08-30 21:59:35 <TD> "The main reason we are doing this is to test our system."
1871 2012-08-30 21:59:38 <TD> wut
1872 2012-08-30 22:00:07 <gmaxwell> td: it's probably a flash HYIP. Bitcoin innovates yet again!
1873 2012-08-30 22:00:29 <gmaxwell> Taking the time for scamming down from months to minutes.
1874 2012-08-30 22:01:16 <Diapolo> Well this is far to easy, what if an old from-the-beginning user had millions of coins he could use and offers such a thing. Send 0.1 and get 0.11 ... this was forseen such a thing is possible, right?
1875 2012-08-30 22:02:07 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: irrelevant question.
1876 2012-08-30 22:02:35 <gmaxwell> The hypothetical millionare could sell as many coins as he wanted. The loss is equal either way.
1877 2012-08-30 22:02:55 <TD> sipa: the orphan blocks are just blocks downloaded out of sequence i think. not sure.
1878 2012-08-30 22:02:58 <TD> chain download == pita
1879 2012-08-30 22:03:15 <gmaxwell> and no, our anti-dos rules did not forsee crowdsourced dos attacks.
1880 2012-08-30 22:03:19 <jrmithdobbs> yes, they're downloaded out of sequence as far as I can tell
1881 2012-08-30 22:03:40 <jrmithdobbs> i've seen the same
1882 2012-08-30 22:04:01 <gmaxwell> there is no out of sequence if you pull between a pair of isolated nodes IIRC.
1883 2012-08-30 22:04:08 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I didn't want to offend here, but I guess bitcoin needs a DoS-prevention-evolution or at least inovation.
1884 2012-08-30 22:04:24 <jrmithdobbs> Diapolo: they're aware
1885 2012-08-30 22:04:46 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: well, the important thing in general is to be able to handle the heightened load, which is far from trivial :/
1886 2012-08-30 22:04:47 <jrmithdobbs> but it's not that bad off really, it's just amazing how stupid people will do stupid shit for no reason some time ;p
1887 2012-08-30 22:06:07 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: there isn't much that can be done against economically irrational dos attackers who have very large bankrolls.
1888 2012-08-30 22:06:22 <Diapolo> How do banks handle this? If 10000s of people would spam the inter-banking network with 0,1 Cent transactions for example? Is there a DoS prevention or is their system that scalable?
1889 2012-08-30 22:06:43 <jrmithdobbs> Diapolo: they have a very easy fix
1890 2012-08-30 22:06:51 <jrmithdobbs> Diapolo: they batch their xfers
1891 2012-08-30 22:06:55 <jrmithdobbs> not applicable here
1892 2012-08-30 22:07:03 <Diapolo> you are of course right ...
1893 2012-08-30 22:07:13 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: there is pretty ruthless rate limiting of ACH at the consumer level too.
1894 2012-08-30 22:07:15 <jrmithdobbs> you asked ;p
1895 2012-08-30 22:07:29 <jrmithdobbs> ya, ACH is a shitty broken system
1896 2012-08-30 22:08:11 sirk390 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1897 2012-08-30 22:09:04 <jrmithdobbs> Diapolo: it's an age old problem that's become new again because of how the p2p net works
1898 2012-08-30 22:10:16 <Diapolo> at least I love to learn exiting new thing everyday I'm in this chan
1899 2012-08-30 22:10:25 Pasha is now known as Cory
1900 2012-08-30 22:11:01 <TD> docs! http://plan99.net/~mike/bitcoinj/0.6/com/google/bitcoin/core/package-summary.html
1901 2012-08-30 22:11:09 <gmaxwell> Oh god, I think I helped this jackass find the source addresses of his @#$@ dos attack transactions.
1902 2012-08-30 22:11:11 <TD> only a few classes missing decent docs now
1903 2012-08-30 22:11:27 <gmaxwell> I will _never_ again help some idiot on IRC find the prior destination for a txn input.
1904 2012-08-30 22:11:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ?
1905 2012-08-30 22:11:47 <TD> tsk
1906 2012-08-30 22:12:05 <TD> "dos attack". if people want to give away free money bitcoin should support that
1907 2012-08-30 22:12:25 <jrmithdobbs> TD: give it away in bigger chunks damn it ;p
1908 2012-08-30 22:12:52 <Luke-Jr> dooglus replied to me -.-
1909 2012-08-30 22:13:32 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1911 2012-08-30 22:13:40 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=15672.msg1131615#msg1131615 weee
1912 2012-08-30 22:13:58 <sipa> TD: yes, and the only real solution is doing headers-first, i think
1913 2012-08-30 22:14:23 <sipa> TD: but i'd rather not tackle that before doing some cleanups/refactoring of the main.cpp code
1914 2012-08-30 22:14:23 <TD> or just moving users onto multibit ;)
1915 2012-08-30 22:14:47 <sipa> meh ;)
1916 2012-08-30 22:14:54 <jrmithdobbs> isn't multibit the one that doesn't actually verify anything?
1917 2012-08-30 22:15:08 <gmaxwell> it's a SPV client.
1918 2012-08-30 22:15:09 <jrmithdobbs> because that's like the opposite of a solution
1919 2012-08-30 22:15:18 <gmaxwell> Electrum is the one that doesn't verify _anything_.
1920 2012-08-30 22:15:35 <TD> jrmithdobbs: read satoshis paper and it'll become clear what it does
1921 2012-08-30 22:15:48 <TD> also, yay for URI handling. finally.
1922 2012-08-30 22:16:01 * TD wants to see a lot of URIs on the forum in the next 6 months
1923 2012-08-30 22:16:07 <jrmithdobbs> TD: ... i know how spv clients work, i couldn't remember which of the clients it was that did zero validation ;p
1924 2012-08-30 22:16:38 <TD> right, electrum and bitcoinspinner rely on the server to provide them with things to sign
1925 2012-08-30 22:17:03 <TD> eventually all end-users will be on SPV or lower
1926 2012-08-30 22:17:08 <TD> so it may as well be SPV
1927 2012-08-30 22:17:18 <TD> not that multi-bit is exactly a perfect replacement for bitcoin-qt .....
1928 2012-08-30 22:18:12 <Diapolo> TD: bitcoin-qt lacks developers that prefer GUI over console ^^
1929 2012-08-30 22:18:27 <TD> you're doing a great job with the gui
1930 2012-08-30 22:18:56 <Diapolo> TD: thanks :) that's where I feel comfortable ... I'm lost in the core BTC code
1931 2012-08-30 22:19:16 <TD> it needs a lot of gui love (as does multi-bit, neither client is exactly beautiful yet)
1932 2012-08-30 22:19:22 <sipa> wallet/ui-wise, i think armory and electrum are the better ones
1933 2012-08-30 22:19:25 <Diapolo> networking, files, paths okay ... but the protocoll or P2P logic holy fuck no ^^
1934 2012-08-30 22:19:38 <TD> core bitcoin is somewhat complicated yes
1935 2012-08-30 22:19:57 <TD> sipa: armory is quite intimidating to look at, imo. electrum isn't so bad
1936 2012-08-30 22:19:59 <Diapolo> ... and not all that well commented btw.
1937 2012-08-30 22:20:18 tower has joined
1938 2012-08-30 22:20:33 <TD> no. well, that's one thing i've tried to fix with bitcoinj
1939 2012-08-30 22:20:40 <sipa> TD: they have different audiences for sure
1940 2012-08-30 22:21:19 <Diapolo> I dislike java, that's why in never liked diablominer too ^^. But in terms of documentation your work looks pretty good.
1941 2012-08-30 22:21:19 <TD> tcatm had some pretty mockups for a gui redesign
1942 2012-08-30 22:21:43 <Diapolo> I saw his initial idea, but disliked some aspects of it.
1943 2012-08-30 22:21:47 <sipa> yes, wonder what happened to them
1944 2012-08-30 22:22:17 <Diapolo> but I'm sure a simple face lift would add much value to bitcoin-qt
1945 2012-08-30 22:22:38 <TD> absolutely. though until SPV mode is implemented, it will remain problematic for new users
1946 2012-08-30 22:22:49 <Diapolo> remove splash screen, rework overview and harmonise the other layours
1947 2012-08-30 22:22:51 <TD> i'm not sure how "SPV in bitcoin-qt" vs "alternative clients" will play out
1948 2012-08-30 22:22:51 <Diapolo> layouts
1949 2012-08-30 22:23:56 <Eliel> sipa: I'm not sure what happened but it synced just now.
1950 2012-08-30 22:24:04 <Diapolo> btw. what about having code names for releases ^^? I like how other companies are calling their stuff.
1951 2012-08-30 22:24:29 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: come on, don't we have enough to argue over?
1952 2012-08-30 22:24:31 <gmaxwell> :P
1953 2012-08-30 22:24:36 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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1955 2012-08-30 22:24:42 <sipa> ok, 0.7.0 will be Altruistic Alpaca
1956 2012-08-30 22:24:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: not Pouncing Ponzis?
1957 2012-08-30 22:24:58 <Diapolo> sounds cool what is an Altruistic Alpaca?
1958 2012-08-30 22:25:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: haha
1959 2012-08-30 22:25:57 <Diapolo> TD: how does google chose codenames? I like the Android ones btw.
1960 2012-08-30 22:26:14 <TD> android was the name of the company we acquired. it was called that because andy rubin likes robots
1961 2012-08-30 22:26:18 <TD> most of our code names are rather pedestrian
1962 2012-08-30 22:26:23 <TD> bigtable, mapreduce, etc
1963 2012-08-30 22:26:38 <TD> sci-fi references and puns are quite common too
1964 2012-08-30 22:27:08 <Diapolo> We could use planet names from Star Trek ^^.
1965 2012-08-30 22:27:36 <freewil> somehow i doubt this will help bitcoin become mainstream
1966 2012-08-30 22:27:39 <TD> lol
1967 2012-08-30 22:27:41 <TD> understatement
1968 2012-08-30 22:27:48 <sipa> wait, is mainstream what we aim for?
1969 2012-08-30 22:27:57 <sipa> ok, let's set up bitcoincentralserver.com
1970 2012-08-30 22:28:17 <freewil> i dont know thats a vague word
1971 2012-08-30 22:28:24 <freewil> id like to promote it to actual legit businesses
1972 2012-08-30 22:28:47 <freewil> ie not bitcoin hunger games or satoshi dice
1973 2012-08-30 22:29:00 <TD> heh
1974 2012-08-30 22:29:09 <TD> gambling is a legal, regulated business in many parts of the world
1975 2012-08-30 22:29:14 Karmaon1 has joined
1976 2012-08-30 22:29:19 <TD> though i'm not sure a game in which you always win is gambling, exactly
1977 2012-08-30 22:29:35 Guest21064 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1978 2012-08-30 22:29:36 <TD> anyway, go look at bitmit.com and donate to it, if you want
1979 2012-08-30 22:29:38 <Diapolo> 0.7 Ronara Prime - 0.8 Galorndon Core ... I guess it's time for me, before I get banned
1980 2012-08-30 22:30:11 <TD> might as well name them after famous central bankers
1981 2012-08-30 22:30:17 <TD> 1.0 Bernanke
1982 2012-08-30 22:30:18 ForceMajeure_ has joined
1983 2012-08-30 22:30:32 <Diapolo> 1.0 Trichet
1984 2012-08-30 22:30:46 <Diapolo> good ol Europe :-P
1985 2012-08-30 22:30:53 <weex> 1.0 Mickey Mouse
1986 2012-08-30 22:31:07 <TD> we solve this problem at google by not using version numbers for most of our software
1987 2012-08-30 22:31:11 cheako has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1988 2012-08-30 22:31:18 <TD> if there are no versions there are no release code names to argue about :-)
1989 2012-08-30 22:31:32 agricocb has joined
1990 2012-08-30 22:31:36 <Diapolo> i'm out ^^ have fun doing something productive now :-P
1991 2012-08-30 22:32:19 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1992 2012-08-30 22:32:24 <gmaxwell> ... Quantitative Quail, Rational Rooster, Scamming Snake, Trading Turtle, Underinsurred Unicorn, Variance Vulture, W-4 Wallaby, X-efficient Xantus, Yield Yak, Z-Tranche Zorilla.
1993 2012-08-30 22:33:30 <TD> maybe each version could be a new prime
1994 2012-08-30 22:33:37 <TD> v1 followed by v3
1995 2012-08-30 22:34:23 <gmaxwell> TD: so development versions would be subprime then?
1996 2012-08-30 22:34:41 <TD> highly risky investments? sounds about right to me
1997 2012-08-30 22:35:02 <sipa> Busy Blockchain, Crunchy Coinbase, Daring Datadir, Easy Extranonce, Fancy Fork, Ghosty Genesis, Hacky Hash, ...
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2013 2012-08-30 23:15:46 <BlueMatt> sipa: Im all for naming each release ubuntu-style
2014 2012-08-30 23:16:02 <BlueMatt> ;)
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2021 2012-08-30 23:22:10 <theorbtwo> Idiodic Invention, Just Jingoisim, Killer Klown..
2022 2012-08-30 23:22:32 <Luke-Jr> anyone have a patch to block 15yTy2CYLk1EEzAzUkTUR2HghPwPLWivGP cooked up yet? <.<
2023 2012-08-30 23:24:54 <phantomcircuit> wats dat
2024 2012-08-30 23:26:09 <freewil> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104630.0
2025 2012-08-30 23:29:25 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: #bitcoin-watch :P
2026 2012-08-30 23:30:47 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2027 2012-08-30 23:35:03 <dooglus> midnightmagic: I'm neither pro nor anti saqtoshidice. a bash while loop is hardly secret knowledge though. if "lack of knowledge of bash" is all that's protecting us from a DOS-ing then we're in trouble
2028 2012-08-30 23:36:17 <Luke-Jr> dooglus: that doesn't mean you should teach script kiddies to do it
2029 2012-08-30 23:36:42 <dooglus> I guess
2030 2012-08-30 23:37:30 <dooglus> I should have left them to write it in PHP like they did with the SD martingale bots :)
2031 2012-08-30 23:38:07 <weex> should have showed them in lisp or perl at least
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2037 2012-08-30 23:43:21 <midnightmagic> dooglus: Yes, I know that. But look at who you responded to: someone who didn't think to run it in a loop. You're optimizing their DDoS. Thanks.
2038 2012-08-30 23:46:35 * jgarzik reads scrollback, finds evidence of bikeshedding, and backs away slowly
2039 2012-08-30 23:49:22 * D34TH follows jgarzik because he has a fresh plate of bacon
2040 2012-08-30 23:52:41 <dooglus> midnightmagic: I removed the offending script
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2044 2012-08-30 23:58:15 <helo> ok, now that i'm home, running 0.7rc1 gives the same error i had earlier: DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
2045 2012-08-30 23:58:49 <helo> when bitcoin upgrades via apt, will it loudly prompt users to run -detachdb?
2046 2012-08-30 23:59:03 <sipa> that shouldn't be necessary, actually
2047 2012-08-30 23:59:10 <sipa> only if the bdb library changed
2048 2012-08-30 23:59:12 <dooglus> helo: I find that running the old version with -detachdb the last time I use it prevents such problems
2049 2012-08-30 23:59:46 <sipa> but I really hope 0.7 is the last bitcoin version to use BDB for the blockchain...