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  6 2012-09-02 00:34:39 <jgarzik> more posting from Hal, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67508.msg1153102#msg1153102
  7 2012-09-02 00:37:38 <Diablo-D3> hrm
  8 2012-09-02 00:38:00 <Diablo-D3> Who is hal anyhow?
  9 2012-09-02 00:38:32 <Diablo-D3> because hes an idiot
 10 2012-09-02 00:38:36 <Diablo-D3> he can get ntp
 11 2012-09-02 00:39:33 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: bitcoin user #2 and a very smart cookie
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 13 2012-09-02 00:39:42 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 14 2012-09-02 00:39:49 <Diablo-D3> so why doesnt he already know about ntp?
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 19 2012-09-02 00:49:51 <freewil> Diablo-D3, he addresses that in the 3rd paragraph
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 31 2012-09-02 01:11:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: did you manage to reproduce gavin's valgrind complaints?
 32 2012-09-02 01:11:58 one_zero has joined
 33 2012-09-02 01:13:10 <gmaxwell> (I see you fixed it, but I'm trying to figure out if there is something wrong with my instrumentation build preventing me from getting the valgrind complaint or if it was just luck of the draw)
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 36 2012-09-02 01:18:03 <Diablo-D3> freewil: no he doesnt
 37 2012-09-02 01:18:50 <freewil> "A couple of other potential sources of secure time: the network time protocol..."
 38 2012-09-02 01:18:54 <Diablo-D3> if he needs end to end mitm proof sockets, he can use spipe (ssh -L without the overhead of the rest of ssh) to pipe it to a server he controls that runs ntp
 39 2012-09-02 01:19:06 <Diablo-D3> freewil: yeah, but he didnt go with it automatically
 40 2012-09-02 01:19:12 <Diablo-D3> its pretty hard to mitm ntp as it is
 41 2012-09-02 01:19:17 <Diablo-D3> its designed as a secure time source
 42 2012-09-02 01:19:53 <Diablo-D3> (well, v3 and 4 are)
 43 2012-09-02 01:19:57 <freewil> ok, so he does mention it
 44 2012-09-02 01:20:15 <Diablo-D3> yeah he mentions it but doesnt seem to know anything about it
 45 2012-09-02 01:20:23 <Diablo-D3> I find it very odd someone who understands crypto doesnt understand ntp
 46 2012-09-02 01:20:38 <freewil> i dont know much about it but that he seems pretty hardcore
 47 2012-09-02 01:20:54 <freewil> i dont think it would be uncommon for someone like that to be unfamiliar with something common-day like ntp
 48 2012-09-02 01:21:02 <freewil> ive seen it plenty in professors
 49 2012-09-02 01:21:18 <gmaxwell> NTP's crypto doesn't provide real security though except in poin to point use.
 50 2012-09-02 01:21:19 <Diablo-D3> teaching is for people who dont do.
 51 2012-09-02 01:21:30 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: yes, which I said above he can spipe out
 52 2012-09-02 01:21:56 <gmaxwell> part of the reason that ntp crypto is oddball is because there are timing considerations.
 53 2012-09-02 01:22:13 <Diablo-D3> timing considerations in a time protocol
 54 2012-09-02 01:22:14 <Diablo-D3> lawls
 55 2012-09-02 01:22:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, I didn't try.
 56 2012-09-02 01:22:49 <gmaxwell> (also, if you want secure time, you can pull time securely from any ssl webserver: SSL leaks the server time)
 57 2012-09-02 01:23:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: K. I'll bug gavin then for his operating enviroment.
 58 2012-09-02 01:23:43 Obsi has joined
 59 2012-09-02 01:23:50 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: (google for tlsdate)
 60 2012-09-02 01:25:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, this is what he suggested the first time
 61 2012-09-02 01:25:55 <Diablo-D3> BUT
 62 2012-09-02 01:26:03 <Diablo-D3> you're limited to servers who you know always have the right time
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 65 2012-09-02 01:33:09 <kreal> anyone hardcore to nginx, and can answer me if I can rewrite a subdirectory on a domain to a different IP, imagine like a subdomain.
 66 2012-09-02 01:34:34 <kreal> making using some form of alias.
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 69 2012-09-02 01:38:56 <ageis> use a vhost bro
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 72 2012-09-02 01:39:38 <kreal> I'm not your bro, friend. ;) But I cannot make a vhost like  walletbit.com/responsepay
 73 2012-09-02 01:39:41 <kreal> otherwise a good idea.
 74 2012-09-02 01:41:20 <ageis> well i don't see why not mang
 75 2012-09-02 01:41:50 <kreal> it's hard to explain.
 76 2012-09-02 01:42:45 <kreal> but basically I want  https://domain.com/subdomain/ to act like https://subdomain.domain.com/
 77 2012-09-02 01:43:27 <kreal> with some clever rewriting.
 78 2012-09-02 01:46:07 <ageis> have you tried it?
 79 2012-09-02 01:47:33 <kreal> trying a few things, not working out.
 80 2012-09-02 01:47:46 <kreal> might look at nginx source next.
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 82 2012-09-02 01:50:05 <ageis> I think it should work
 83 2012-09-02 01:50:13 <ageis> rewrite  ^/subdomain/$ https://subdomain.domain.com/$;
 84 2012-09-02 01:50:37 <kreal> hmm
 85 2012-09-02 01:52:51 <ageis> you can also use $scheme instead of https
 86 2012-09-02 01:54:20 <kreal> but this will send the user to https://subdomain.domain.com/$; right
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 88 2012-09-02 02:01:25 <ageis> $ is whatever requested within/after the subdir
 89 2012-09-02 02:01:29 <ageis> could be nothing
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 91 2012-09-02 02:01:36 <ageis> represents end of string in rewrite
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103 2012-09-02 02:20:45 <kreal> ageis, made it work with proxy_pass
104 2012-09-02 02:20:48 <kreal> thanks.
105 2012-09-02 02:20:52 <ageis> ahh
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228 2012-09-02 09:24:35 <L00P> Hello
229 2012-09-02 09:25:17 <L00P> Is theae any tool that allows ro repair damaged blockchain in orginal bitcoin client?
230 2012-09-02 09:26:15 drazak_ has joined
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232 2012-09-02 09:26:52 <Ernesto_Juarell> does the verify command do it?
233 2012-09-02 09:27:11 <L00P> Due to system failure i damaged blockchaim, most probably the last part so I'd like to delete last ~1000 blocks to restore it
234 2012-09-02 09:27:26 <L00P> I'll try
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241 2012-09-02 09:33:18 <L00P> I got "Bitcoin: Error loading blkindex.dat"
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248 2012-09-02 09:44:27 <Eliel> L00P: blkindex.dat most likely doesn't survive if you cut something out from blk000x.dat files.
249 2012-09-02 09:44:48 <Eliel> or, more like, survives but the data no longer matches
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254 2012-09-02 09:56:55 <Varan> Does anyone know why i get this NullPointerException using bitcoinj: http://pastebin.com/Wa7WYuse
255 2012-09-02 09:57:20 <Varan> I just try to do peer discovery using dns and downloading the chain
256 2012-09-02 10:02:54 <L00P> Thx Eliel
257 2012-09-02 10:03:04 <L00P> I've been afk
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278 2012-09-02 10:55:07 <YasminOmar> hi
279 2012-09-02 10:55:46 <YasminOmar> I am willing to developm based on Bitcoin I want to know how to start new alternative bloackchain
280 2012-09-02 10:56:02 <YasminOmar> what is the simplest way to start doing that?
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282 2012-09-02 10:58:29 <FabianB> YasminOmar: what's wrong with btc?
283 2012-09-02 10:58:50 <YasminOmar> I need to develop somthing similar
284 2012-09-02 10:59:09 <YasminOmar> I need to fork from Bitcoin like namecoin
285 2012-09-02 10:59:44 <YasminOmar> I have read a lot about alternative block chains but dunno from where to start
286 2012-09-02 11:00:25 <FabianB> YasminOmar: different economics?
287 2012-09-02 11:01:02 <YasminOmar> different currency
288 2012-09-02 11:01:19 <YasminOmar> mmm () related to green-cards some-how
289 2012-09-02 11:02:38 <FabianB> YasminOmar: did you look at the source code yet?
290 2012-09-02 11:03:13 <sipa> why do you need a different currency?
291 2012-09-02 11:03:29 <YasminOmar> Yes , do you mean Bitcoin code? yes i worked on it last year as trial to port it from c++ to c
292 2012-09-02 11:03:53 <YasminOmar> and I compiled it recently under windows the Qt version
293 2012-09-02 11:04:50 <YasminOmar> sipa lets say I need to do new trading platform that keeps traders privacy
294 2012-09-02 11:05:29 <sipa> there have been people thinking about such things
295 2012-09-02 11:06:14 <YasminOmar> mmm I am supposed to use this in feild that till now not so much people explored
296 2012-09-02 11:06:19 <erska> YasminOmar: instructions at end of the thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=10278.0
297 2012-09-02 11:06:25 <YasminOmar> its my master thesis now
298 2012-09-02 11:06:27 <sipa> but you'll need a bit more infrastructure than just bitcoin
299 2012-09-02 11:06:44 <YasminOmar> like what?
300 2012-09-02 11:08:10 <YasminOmar> what are the other infrastructure look like?
301 2012-09-02 11:08:18 <YasminOmar> thanx erska
302 2012-09-02 11:10:32 <wumpus> don't forget to take a look at opentransactions
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305 2012-09-02 11:12:34 <YasminOmar> wumpus .. Can you give me a useful link about open transactions?
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308 2012-09-02 11:15:57 <Diapolo> wumpus: What about replacing all Q_WS_ occurances by Q_OS_ as Qt5 removes Q_WS_ while Q_OS_ will also work with 4.X.
309 2012-09-02 11:16:22 btctrader22 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
310 2012-09-02 11:17:50 <Diapolo> this could be done juzt after 0.7 and is of no harm I guess
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313 2012-09-02 11:19:19 <Diapolo> it's all Q_WS_MAC special casing for UI stuff ... I greatly dislike that parts anyway ^^
314 2012-09-02 11:19:32 <wumpus> re:opentransactions, I know what they're doing in global terms but I don't know anything about the details
315 2012-09-02 11:20:04 <wumpus> Diapolo: yes, if you can increase 5.0 compatibility without breaking anything for 4.x that's always good
316 2012-09-02 11:20:37 <wumpus> but a big point of ot is private anonymous trades/transactions, they have a irc channel here too #opentransactions
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323 2012-09-02 11:28:30 <Diapolo> wumpus: Did you read my last comment on my Reset pull? Even if it's not for 0.7, I would like to know how we can achieve a consensus with it :).
324 2012-09-02 11:39:17 <wumpus> Diapolo: I haven't really had time to think about that yet
325 2012-09-02 11:40:26 <wumpus> anyway I think any solution that doesn't change the behavior of OptionsModel::data from the current one is preferable
326 2012-09-02 11:41:11 <Diapolo> that's okay, I'm out for now
327 2012-09-02 11:41:24 <Diapolo> ^^
328 2012-09-02 11:41:30 Diapolo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
329 2012-09-02 11:43:15 babalu has joined
330 2012-09-02 11:43:19 <babalu> Hi
331 2012-09-02 11:43:51 <babalu> I've a problem using bitcoind api with php
332 2012-09-02 11:44:02 <babalu> because if i use this command to get balance $bitcoin->getbalance($username, 6); print_r($user_balance." ฿");
333 2012-09-02 11:44:15 <babalu> it return just an integer 0
334 2012-09-02 11:44:41 <babalu> while the real balance is 0.005
335 2012-09-02 11:45:30 <babalu> any suggest on how to solve this?
336 2012-09-02 11:45:54 <denisx> maybe an integer problem?
337 2012-09-02 11:46:04 <denisx> test it with more than 1 bitcoin
338 2012-09-02 11:46:25 Marf has joined
339 2012-09-02 11:46:36 <babalu> lol i don't have one bitcoin :/
340 2012-09-02 11:49:01 <babalu> ah
341 2012-09-02 11:49:02 <babalu> solved
342 2012-09-02 11:49:06 <babalu> my fault
343 2012-09-02 11:49:28 <babalu> just have to settype($user_balance, "float");
344 2012-09-02 11:49:56 <denisx> yeah, thought so
345 2012-09-02 11:50:34 <babalu> is there a type better than float that should i use?
346 2012-09-02 11:51:34 <denisx> I don't know php, but in c there is also double which is more precise than float
347 2012-09-02 11:53:29 <babalu> denisx: using double now
348 2012-09-02 11:53:32 <babalu> Thank you :)
349 2012-09-02 11:53:49 keverw has joined
350 2012-09-02 11:54:53 <keverw> Hey! I noticed gettransaction does not show a from address. :/ Is it possible to get this? Not sure if the new 0.7 might have it...
351 2012-09-02 11:59:43 <kreal> with php and/or mysql always use decimal
352 2012-09-02 11:59:47 <kreal> 15,8
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355 2012-09-02 12:07:13 <keverw> Is there a BitcoinQT 0.7 yet? I want to install on my TestNet VM and see if the raw tx api will do want I need.
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362 2012-09-02 12:18:35 <sipa> keverw: there is a release candidate
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366 2012-09-02 12:23:53 <wumpus> in general, there is no 'from address' for bitcoin transactions
367 2012-09-02 12:25:03 L00P has left ()
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369 2012-09-02 12:25:43 <sipa> keverw: bitcoin transactions do not have a from address; they have previous outputs being spent, and one or more of those previous outputs may have a recognizable address they were previously sent to, but there is no guarantee that the sender of a transaction accepts coins there (or even that it belongs to him)
370 2012-09-02 12:26:56 <keverw> hmm. Well I know that one dice game does it this way… Would the RawTX api tell me that or would I need a third party?
371 2012-09-02 12:27:24 <keverw> PS. I'm not making a dice game. Working on something that's accountless so want to pay the same way.
372 2012-09-02 12:31:39 hsy has joined
373 2012-09-02 12:33:43 <sipa> keverw: what do you need an input address for? for refunds?
374 2012-09-02 12:34:09 <keverw> refunds and some other things.
375 2012-09-02 12:34:55 <Joric> what's the reason of satoshidice if you may martingale it? 0.001 to 250 it's 19 orders of magnitude
376 2012-09-02 12:34:56 sturles has joined
377 2012-09-02 12:35:00 <Joric> i believe satoshidice now effectively works as a self-sustaining ddos machine
378 2012-09-02 12:35:00 <keverw> and I put a disclaimer to only use wallets that allow you to receive bit coins from the same address.
379 2012-09-02 12:36:48 <keverw> hmm, maybe I should build a wallet system in to my software… kinda don't want to but I could I guess.
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383 2012-09-02 12:44:55 <sipa> keverw: just ask customer for a refund address
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418 2012-09-02 14:21:40 <MC-Eeepc> why is it called ultratrune if its not about pruning
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425 2012-09-02 14:37:36 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: it is about using a pruned database for block validation
426 2012-09-02 14:37:56 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: (and it supports pruning, but that's not implemented yet)
427 2012-09-02 14:40:26 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
428 2012-09-02 14:50:12 <OneEyed> Did Eligius get its logic wrong? 1024 transactions in the last block (http://blockchain.info/block-index/277197/000000000000019e0f9e773f119845416707852e9080eaf1f836e386a81107d0) and only 0.001 in transaction fees :/
429 2012-09-02 14:56:49 <MC-Eeepc> this ultraprune is choking like a $15 whore on this last 4000 blocks
430 2012-09-02 14:59:33 MathCampbell has quit (Quit: MathCampbell)
431 2012-09-02 14:59:43 <MC-Eeepc> did some sort of horriffic new chain spam start in the last month or so
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439 2012-09-02 15:11:52 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: after the last checkpoint (at block 193000), signature verification is enabled
440 2012-09-02 15:12:20 <sipa> perhaps that's what you notice?
441 2012-09-02 15:12:37 <MC-Eeepc> i dont know whatthat means
442 2012-09-02 15:12:59 <sipa> after block 193000, signatures are verified (and this uses more cpu)
443 2012-09-02 15:13:29 <MC-Eeepc> what are verified signatures
444 2012-09-02 15:13:37 <sipa> before block 193000, signature are not verified (and this uses less cpu)
445 2012-09-02 15:14:14 <sipa> bitcoin transaction contain a cryptographic signature to prove that it is the owner of a coin that sends it
446 2012-09-02 15:14:29 <sipa> full nodes verify those signatures
447 2012-09-02 15:14:52 <sipa> but the software contains checkpointed blocks, and before the last checkpoint, signatures are not verified
448 2012-09-02 15:15:14 <MC-Eeepc> but verifying signatures sounds important
449 2012-09-02 15:15:22 <sipa> it is
450 2012-09-02 15:15:41 <MC-Eeepc> and checkpoints are the will of  a handful of guys, and not the hashpower
451 2012-09-02 15:16:01 <sipa> partially true, but the chain is still verified
452 2012-09-02 15:17:09 <MC-Eeepc> wait so if sig verifying was turned on all the way, ultraprun would be no faster?
453 2012-09-02 15:18:25 <MC-Eeepc> ive been impressed with the speed so far but it depends on the compromises made
454 2012-09-02 15:18:31 <MC-Eeepc> which ive been told are not a big deal
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473 2012-09-02 15:57:56 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: to reproduce the error in valgrind, you need a 'move' transaction, then listtransaction ''
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491 2012-09-02 16:37:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok, the script that runs is at https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts/blob/master/build-script.sh if you wanna give running valgrind a try
492 2012-09-02 16:41:05 <BlueMatt> or gmaxwell if you wanted to do lcov
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514 2012-09-02 17:44:35 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #53: STILL FAILING in 41 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/53/
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521 2012-09-02 17:57:22 <Joric> is it possible to encrypt/decrypt message using address keypair?
522 2012-09-02 17:59:20 <gmaxwell> Joric: do you mean to ask 'a pair of addresses' ?
523 2012-09-02 17:59:21 TheSeven has joined
524 2012-09-02 17:59:33 <Joric> well, or that
525 2012-09-02 17:59:36 <gmaxwell> If so, the answer is no.
526 2012-09-02 18:00:38 <BlueMatt> is it possible to encrypt/decrypt anything with ecdsa? -> no
527 2012-09-02 18:01:39 <Joric> 'encrypt-decrypt in ECC can be done using El Gamal Encryption over an Elliptic Curve'
528 2012-09-02 18:02:21 <BlueMatt> if you want to take your private key and re-purpose it for an entirely different algorithm...have fun, but...well thats just stupid
529 2012-09-02 18:02:48 root2 has joined
530 2012-09-02 18:03:54 <BlueMatt> but, note, I doubt there would be a way to go from ecdsa pubkey associated with a given privkey -> el gamal pubkey from the same priv key
531 2012-09-02 18:12:08 <sipa> Joric: yeah, El Gamal over EC can be used for encryption, but for some reason that's rarely used, afaik
532 2012-09-02 18:12:35 <sipa> ECDH + AES is more common (which uses AES with an ephmeral key to do the actual encryption)
533 2012-09-02 18:12:46 <gmaxwell> Joric: This is why insisted on the address clarification.
534 2012-09-02 18:12:55 <gmaxwell> Joric: You can not do any of these things using _addresses_
535 2012-09-02 18:13:17 JudgeTheDude has joined
536 2012-09-02 18:14:15 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: well you have to trust the source code anyway, no? or at least have faith that people do look at the source, and do verify that the distributed binaries are built from that source (and you _can_ verify this, through gitian)
537 2012-09-02 18:15:07 <gmaxwell> 08:11 < MC-Eeepc> wait so if sig verifying was turned on all the way, ultraprun would be no faster?
538 2012-09-02 18:15:18 <gmaxwell> Ultraprue and regular bitcoin are identical in this respec.
539 2012-09-02 18:15:21 <gmaxwell> re resepect.
540 2012-09-02 18:15:52 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: the checkpoints are similar, but even weaker, as all they can do is prevent you from accepting the right chain; they can't make your node accept a false chain (though making you go accept a valid fork is possible)
541 2012-09-02 18:16:15 agricocb has joined
542 2012-09-02 18:17:19 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: and indeed, as gmaxwell says: the "no sig checks before last checkpoint rule" was added somewhere in 0.5 iirc; that's not where ultraprune gets its speed advantage
543 2012-09-02 18:17:38 apex-alt is now known as Apexseals
544 2012-09-02 18:17:52 <Joric> what's that major september's announcement? not finished yet?
545 2012-09-02 18:17:53 killerstorm has joined
546 2012-09-02 18:19:29 <MC-Eeepc> so there has been no true self verification of chain since .5?
547 2012-09-02 18:20:22 <MC-Eeepc> how long would that take at this point
548 2012-09-02 18:20:52 <sipa> on my laptop, around 1 hour of extra CPU time
549 2012-09-02 18:21:16 <sipa> (i7-2670QM 2.2GHz)
550 2012-09-02 18:21:33 <killerstorm> I can haz testcoins? moEaekk95oJrdH6JWb7KYEtJEyksKy7Hs1
551 2012-09-02 18:21:39 <MC-Eeepc> i jsut realised bitcoin depends on intel and AMD not going out of business
552 2012-09-02 18:21:42 <gmaxwell> killerstorm: you're running testnet3?
553 2012-09-02 18:22:00 <killerstorm> yup
554 2012-09-02 18:22:12 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: "no true self verification" please don't hype things.
555 2012-09-02 18:22:19 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: It's going to earn you a /ignore from me.
556 2012-09-02 18:22:38 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: bitcoin does all the verification to prevent inflation on install.
557 2012-09-02 18:22:55 <sipa> well he has a point; the deeply buried part of the chain history has not been _completely_ verified by recent clients for a while
558 2012-09-02 18:23:07 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: it's just skipping the ecc sig checks on the deep chain, because they're cpu expensive and not needed to prevent inflation.
559 2012-09-02 18:23:09 <MC-Eeepc> dont get touchy
560 2012-09-02 18:23:12 <kjj_> but it still couldn't change because of the hashes
561 2012-09-02 18:23:28 <gmaxwell> kjj_: yes, but it's not a self validation.
562 2012-09-02 18:23:46 <sipa> indeed, so we've marginally given up zero-trust for SPV-trust regarding the signatures in a deeply buried part of the chain history
563 2012-09-02 18:23:48 <kjj_> agreed
564 2012-09-02 18:24:04 <gmaxwell> kjj_: But It's also irrelevant to inflation.
565 2012-09-02 18:24:44 <gmaxwell> e.g. I'm a new node, I care very much that the rules were followed so that magic coins didn't come out of thin air in the past. I don't care if other people got robbed in the past.
566 2012-09-02 18:25:01 Evilmax has joined
567 2012-09-02 18:26:07 <kjj_> add a flag or RPC call to do a full verify?
568 2012-09-02 18:26:23 <sipa> i wouldn't mind having such a flag, actually
569 2012-09-02 18:26:37 <sipa> (though i'd make it a config option)
570 2012-09-02 18:26:48 <gmaxwell> an RPC call doesn't make much sense.
571 2012-09-02 18:26:51 <kjj_> I think I'd rather have it as a RPC call
572 2012-09-02 18:27:07 <sipa> you can't do an RPC call before the node is fully running
573 2012-09-02 18:27:16 <sipa> and at that time, you'll already have downloaded blocks most likely
574 2012-09-02 18:27:24 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
575 2012-09-02 18:27:29 <kjj_> then again, I'd also like a RPC call that quiesces the databases for a copy without having to shut down the node
576 2012-09-02 18:27:45 <gmaxwell> What I tried to get gavin to do initially was just may it randomized. E.g. check 1 in N blocks at random. N could be set high enough that there is basically no performance impact.
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579 2012-09-02 18:29:44 <sipa> at least providing the ability to set the software in a mode that fully verifies history would give some extra confidence in the chosen checkpoints, imho
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581 2012-09-02 18:30:16 <sipa> of course, if one can mess with the checkpoints, one can mess with the software too
582 2012-09-02 18:30:26 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #54: STILL FAILING in 40 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/54/
583 2012-09-02 18:30:42 <kjj_> sipa: I agree that most people's needs would be met by just checking at startup.
584 2012-09-02 18:31:06 <gmaxwell> kjj_: I think you're confused about something but I'm not sure what.
585 2012-09-02 18:31:11 <kjj_> sipa: but I'd rather keep my node running and issue a RPC call once a week or month or whenever to check everything
586 2012-09-02 18:31:33 <gmaxwell> oh! you want a checkblocks rpc?
587 2012-09-02 18:31:46 <sipa> kjj_: that's technically not possible really; re-checking would mean resetting the index and re-importing it again
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590 2012-09-02 18:32:13 <sipa> the only point at which you can do a completely full validation is when blocks get connected
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592 2012-09-02 18:32:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: well it is possible just insanely expensive. E.g. You spin up a background tasks that builds a new index. And when it catches up you compare them.
593 2012-09-02 18:32:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: sure, it's a technical problem, not a theoretical one
594 2012-09-02 18:33:03 <sipa> with the current database layout it would actually be possible to re-connect
595 2012-09-02 18:34:06 <MC-Eeepc> what about that thing where you said you wee shooting for a cleint thats usable right away, but brings itself up to speed gradually too
596 2012-09-02 18:34:45 <sipa> initial headers-only mode? yeah that'd be ncie
597 2012-09-02 18:35:30 <MC-Eeepc> would it be possible to have some sort of hybrid client thats starts out thin, and gradually turns itself into full in the background. And uses a random other full node in the network as its chainserver in the meantime
598 2012-09-02 18:35:39 <MC-Eeepc> or even several at once
599 2012-09-02 18:36:22 <MC-Eeepc> so it starts off not zero trust but usable, but with a random P2P server
600 2012-09-02 18:36:40 <MC-Eeepc> then gradualy becomes zero trust and in turn does the same for other brand new nodes
601 2012-09-02 18:36:41 <kjj_> if we wander very far down this road we end up with three parts, the blockchain daemon, the network daemon, and the wallet/UI process
602 2012-09-02 18:36:55 <sipa> that's a possibility, but i don't think that's what i'd like the reference code to be
603 2012-09-02 18:37:15 <MC-Eeepc> is it a stupid idea tho
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605 2012-09-02 18:38:15 <MC-Eeepc> i think it would only work with majority deployment in the network, not a handful of niche clients
606 2012-09-02 18:38:58 <sipa> kjj_: make that blockchain server (store blocks and serve them), verification server (validate and relay transactions and blocks, keep txouts and chain data), wallet process
607 2012-09-02 18:39:29 <kjj_> sipa: I'd want the verification closer to the storage
608 2012-09-02 18:39:35 <sipa> why?
609 2012-09-02 18:39:45 <sipa> they are almost entirely independent
610 2012-09-02 18:40:04 <kjj_> I want the software that stores blocks to check them first
611 2012-09-02 18:40:23 <sipa> well the chain server could be put behind a validation server
612 2012-09-02 18:40:58 <sipa> but there's for example no need for every node inside a trusted network of a large organisation to store blocks; one big block server suffices
613 2012-09-02 18:40:59 <kjj_> I don't want the chain server to trust anything.  if the validation server gives it gargage, it should be ignored
614 2012-09-02 18:41:19 <sipa> not sure what you mean
615 2012-09-02 18:42:07 <kjj_> well, what you said wasn't a full description of the protocol between the parts, but it sorta suggests that the storage server accepts whatever is given to it
616 2012-09-02 18:42:49 <sipa> i'd say it stores any block with valid PoW and connectable to the block tree (just like bitcoin does right now, by the way)
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620 2012-09-02 18:43:22 <kjj_> it also has to enforce the system's other rules
621 2012-09-02 18:43:29 <sipa> what for?
622 2012-09-02 18:43:45 <kjj_> so that it doesn't store a double spend, for example
623 2012-09-02 18:43:56 <sipa> that's almost inevitable
624 2012-09-02 18:44:00 <sipa> we DO that right now even
625 2012-09-02 18:44:07 <sipa> such a block won't get served, obviously
626 2012-09-02 18:44:26 <sipa> as it won't become part of the active blockchain
627 2012-09-02 18:44:47 <sipa> maybe i shouldn't call the first component "blockchain server" but "block server"
628 2012-09-02 18:45:01 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
629 2012-09-02 18:45:06 <MC-Eeepc> mfw no one gives a fuck about my idea :(
630 2012-09-02 18:45:09 <kjj_> if it is just storing arbitrary blocks, that makes more sense
631 2012-09-02 18:45:34 <kjj_> MC-Eeepc: it is hard to do.  and people will ignore the warnings that their node is unsafe
632 2012-09-02 18:45:52 <freewil> MC-Eeepc, it sounds like a good idea, but i just dont think it's high priority right now
633 2012-09-02 18:46:02 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: sure people do; a client that does lightweight/SPV/full/archive in stages would be very nice; i'm just saying that i don't think it's what the reference client should be
634 2012-09-02 18:46:04 <freewil> bitcoinjs started doing this, a bunch of separate modules/processes
635 2012-09-02 18:46:25 <freewil> exitnode, p2p, wallet
636 2012-09-02 18:46:45 <MC-Eeepc> ha i came up with a good idea for once
637 2012-09-02 18:47:07 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: it's been suggested before
638 2012-09-02 18:47:33 <kjj_> the fun part is that with a split client, the backend block or chain server could do other things, like ask 8 peers for the same block and if they agree, pass it to the next layer
639 2012-09-02 18:47:33 <sturles> When db.log says: PANIC: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
640 2012-09-02 18:47:38 <sturles> Is that even possible?
641 2012-09-02 18:47:42 <MC-Eeepc> would it be that unsafe considering using multiple totally random p2p nodes as chainservers during the lite phase
642 2012-09-02 18:47:44 <kjj_> sturles: which database?
643 2012-09-02 18:48:01 <sturles> blockhain, I suppose.
644 2012-09-02 18:48:05 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: all depends on which attack model you use
645 2012-09-02 18:48:07 <MC-Eeepc> unles someone knows an IP is about to fire up a new client and surrounds it, but that sounds unlikely
646 2012-09-02 18:48:07 <kjj_> MC-Eeepc: not totally unsafe, but less safe than the current model.  and safety is important here
647 2012-09-02 18:48:11 just4dos has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
648 2012-09-02 18:48:34 <kjj_> MC-Eeepc: it isn't that unlikely when you consider that an attacker may, in many situations, be able to force that to happen
649 2012-09-02 18:48:38 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: but if you assume the longest chain is always valid anyway, you don't need more than an SPV client
650 2012-09-02 18:49:02 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: the reason to run a full node is exactly because you want to be able to prevent even cases where that assumption is wrong, however unlikely they are
651 2012-09-02 18:49:52 <kjj_> MC-Eeepc: for example, my cable company could totally fuck with all of my home node's bitcoin peer connections
652 2012-09-02 18:49:54 rdponticelli has joined
653 2012-09-02 18:50:10 <MC-Eeepc> yes then its all about the non zero trust risk window
654 2012-09-02 18:50:22 <kjj_> MC-Eeepc: and they might not know that I'm going to run bitcoin, but they could safely assume that someone on their network will
655 2012-09-02 18:51:19 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
656 2012-09-02 18:54:40 <MC-Eeepc> yeah your ISP dicking with you is a harse threat model
657 2012-09-02 18:54:56 <MC-Eeepc> by ISP i suppose we really mean the govenment
658 2012-09-02 18:55:31 <kjj_> that's actually the weakest threat, something a bored network admin would do to pass time on a slow day
659 2012-09-02 18:57:02 <MC-Eeepc> someone doesnt want thier job anymore
660 2012-09-02 18:57:36 <MC-Eeepc> no wait comcast did it to bittorrent and bothing happened
661 2012-09-02 18:57:43 <MC-Eeepc> well tey stopped when people found out
662 2012-09-02 19:04:46 <maaku> did they? i thought that was still a persistent problem
663 2012-09-02 19:04:48 just4dos has joined
664 2012-09-02 19:04:54 <maaku> one of the reasons for net neutrality and all that
665 2012-09-02 19:05:53 <MC-Eeepc> yeah they stopped because it was blatant
666 2012-09-02 19:06:05 <MC-Eeepc> forging fucking reset packets
667 2012-09-02 19:06:13 <MC-Eeepc> how is that not wiretapping
668 2012-09-02 19:06:22 <MC-Eeepc> but others still throttle and shit
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692 2012-09-02 19:54:47 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: care to explain https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104647.msg1146476#msg1146476 ??
693 2012-09-02 19:54:51 darkski3z has joined
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695 2012-09-02 19:55:11 <ThomasV> "value could be understated" <- what do you mean?
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701 2012-09-02 20:05:33 FabianB has left ("Ogg said /part")
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703 2012-09-02 20:05:40 enmaku2 is now known as enmaku
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705 2012-09-02 20:19:03 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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709 2012-09-02 20:21:21 <MC-Eeepc> any way to work out the total number of hashes expended on the chain
710 2012-09-02 20:21:28 <MC-Eeepc> since blk0
711 2012-09-02 20:22:09 <sipa> it's written to debug.log
712 2012-09-02 20:22:27 <sipa> search for 'work='
713 2012-09-02 20:22:50 enmaku2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
714 2012-09-02 20:23:19 <MC-Eeepc> i dont even hae a client thats up to date here lol
715 2012-09-02 20:23:31 enmaku2 has joined
716 2012-09-02 20:24:01 enmaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
717 2012-09-02 20:25:10 <MC-Eeepc>  height=193389  work=423645534661737495844  tx=5838875
718 2012-09-02 20:25:11 enmaku has joined
719 2012-09-02 20:25:12 <MC-Eeepc> welp
720 2012-09-02 20:25:22 <MC-Eeepc> is that really in hashes
721 2012-09-02 20:25:37 enmaku2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
722 2012-09-02 20:26:07 <sipa> yes
723 2012-09-02 20:26:18 <sipa> measured in expected number of double SHA256's
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728 2012-09-02 20:26:45 <MC-Eeepc> im gonna call that 42 gorrillian hashes
729 2012-09-02 20:26:55 <Luke-Jr> …
730 2012-09-02 20:27:11 rdponticelli has joined
731 2012-09-02 20:28:14 <sipa> it's 42 quintillion, according to wikipedia
732 2012-09-02 20:28:17 <Luke-Jr> it's already 423 exahash
733 2012-09-02 20:28:24 <sipa> no, 42
734 2012-09-02 20:28:28 <sipa> oh, wait!
735 2012-09-02 20:28:31 <Luke-Jr> …
736 2012-09-02 20:28:32 <sipa> yes, you're right
737 2012-09-02 20:29:09 slush has joined
738 2012-09-02 20:31:22 <sipa> 4 hectoquintillion bihashes!
739 2012-09-02 20:32:28 JStoker has quit (Excess Flood)
740 2012-09-02 20:34:58 <Diapolo> wtf ^^
741 2012-09-02 20:35:49 * sipa will stick to 4*10^20 hashes for now
742 2012-09-02 20:35:59 <Luke-Jr> 4e20 is nicer at least
743 2012-09-02 20:36:03 <Luke-Jr> <.<
744 2012-09-02 20:36:37 <sipa> still, 4 hectoquintillion bihashes sounds more impressive
745 2012-09-02 20:36:40 <Luke-Jr> :p
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759 2012-09-02 20:50:06 <Diapolo> sipa: For which not limited networks is SetNameProxy(addrProxy, 5); allowed? I mean onlynet=IPv4, IPv6, Tor ...
760 2012-09-02 20:50:42 <sipa> Diapolo: that's independent from the network
761 2012-09-02 20:51:19 <sipa> it's just for hosts which are reached by name; the resolution is left to the proxy for them, so it's not relevant or known which network they belong
762 2012-09-02 20:51:46 <Diapolo> okay, but to understand the sense of e.g. -onlynet=IPv6 I think that should disable IPv4 and Tor proxies, right?
763 2012-09-02 20:51:55 <denisx> my bitcoind is running with ipv6, but how can I test if it really works?
764 2012-09-02 20:52:27 <sipa> Diapolo: i wouldn't ever let -onlynet influence the name proxy
765 2012-09-02 20:52:43 <Diapolo> sipa: that is fine, but the other proxies
766 2012-09-02 20:53:10 <sipa> denisx: try to connect to it?
767 2012-09-02 20:53:18 <Diapolo> Is that a true condition:
768 2012-09-02 20:53:18 <Diapolo> if (!IsLimited(NET_IPV4))
769 2012-09-02 20:53:18 <Diapolo>     SetProxy(NET_IPV4, addrProxy, nSocksVersion);
770 2012-09-02 20:53:39 <denisx> sipa: shouldnt simply some other bitcoin daemons connect to it?
771 2012-09-02 20:53:45 <denisx> the port is open
772 2012-09-02 20:53:57 <sipa> denisx: maybe, but there are almost no ipv6 nodes on the network compared to ipv4 ones
773 2012-09-02 20:54:12 <Diapolo> denisx: try to add -onlynet="IPv6" as command-line parameter and see if it connects ^^
774 2012-09-02 20:54:25 <sipa> Diapolo: not sure -onlynet should prevent setting proxies
775 2012-09-02 20:54:31 <sipa> Diapolo: it won't harm
776 2012-09-02 20:54:48 <sipa> and what if you do -onlynet=ipv6 -proxy=blabla -addnode=<someipv4address>
777 2012-09-02 20:55:02 <sipa> i think the reasonable expextation is that that addnode happens through the specified proxy
778 2012-09-02 20:55:16 <Diapolo> sipa: I think it's a matter of consisteny, but I want to be sure ... that's why I ask
779 2012-09-02 20:55:40 <denisx> Diapolo: cool, that worked
780 2012-09-02 20:55:55 <Diapolo> sipa: which options is higher in priority
781 2012-09-02 20:56:00 <sipa> denisx: -onlynet controls which networks the P2P peer selection mechanism connects to and listens on by default
782 2012-09-02 20:56:03 <sipa> eh, Diapolo
783 2012-09-02 20:56:20 <sipa> but there may be other connections, if they are requested explicitly
784 2012-09-02 20:56:21 usagi has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
785 2012-09-02 20:56:24 <denisx> sipa: and what is the default?
786 2012-09-02 20:56:38 <sipa> denisx: default for what?
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788 2012-09-02 20:56:53 <denisx> sipa: when I don't use onlynet
789 2012-09-02 20:57:04 <sipa> then all networks are acceptable
790 2012-09-02 20:57:57 <Diapolo> sipa: well I would expect that a blocked network should not be reached, because that is why I blocked it by hand?
791 2012-09-02 20:58:18 <sipa> well it's a matter of opinion, i guess
792 2012-09-02 20:58:26 <sipa> and it would be a confusing example no matter what
793 2012-09-02 20:59:28 <Diapolo> indeed ... it seems I'm currently network-part interessted and work there ^^
794 2012-09-02 20:59:47 <Diapolo> there are quite many possible combinations
795 2012-09-02 21:00:09 <sipa> i'd prefer not to have onlynet influence proxies
796 2012-09-02 21:00:50 <sipa> best case: someone uses -proxy X, and -onlynet=Y, so SetProxy gets called for the blocked networks, and nothing further happens because no connections to those networks are attempted anyway
797 2012-09-02 21:01:09 <sipa> worst case: people expect an error, and instead they get a connection through the proxy
798 2012-09-02 21:01:57 <Diapolo> could there be a privacy problem when leaving things as they are? leak of IPs or something
799 2012-09-02 21:02:49 <sipa> we're talking about the case where someone says "no connections to network X", and then manually specifies a connection to network X
800 2012-09-02 21:03:18 <Diapolo> so -onlynet=x really prevents network traffic to network x but allows an manual override
801 2012-09-02 21:04:49 Obsi has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
802 2012-09-02 21:05:29 <Diapolo> Okay, I'll not include any IsLimited() checks for proxy settings :).
803 2012-09-02 21:05:43 <sipa> there are a few already
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805 2012-09-02 21:06:32 <Diapolo> yes for IPv6
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807 2012-09-02 21:09:24 <Diapolo> oh damn ... yes there ARE already checks in the code for IPv4 AND IPv6, I did a wrong diff ... argh
808 2012-09-02 21:10:09 <Diapolo> sipa: seems like the current default behavior IS to not set a proxy for blocked networks ^^
809 2012-09-02 21:10:13 <sipa> indeed
810 2012-09-02 21:10:15 <sipa> also, i'm beginning to wonder whether -onlynet preventing listening to specified bind addresses is correct
811 2012-09-02 21:10:35 <sipa> i may well want to listen to certain addresses, but not connect to it
812 2012-09-02 21:11:08 <sipa> certainly it should disable listening to default to the blocked network
813 2012-09-02 21:11:22 <denisx> I have never seen a IPv6 connection without onlynet=IPv6
814 2012-09-02 21:11:33 <sipa> i do
815 2012-09-02 21:11:38 <denisx> sipa: ok
816 2012-09-02 21:12:19 <sipa> hmm, only incoming ones though
817 2012-09-02 21:12:42 <sipa> i think it will just be a while before there are sufficient ipv6 addresses being forwarded on the network
818 2012-09-02 21:12:55 <Diapolo> sipa: which line in init.cpp is that code you ware talking about
819 2012-09-02 21:13:15 <sipa> Diapolo: first line of Bind in init.cpp
820 2012-09-02 21:13:48 <denisx> ah, now I see one even without onlynet
821 2012-09-02 21:13:57 <denisx> now I'm relieved ;)
822 2012-09-02 21:14:38 <sipa> denisx: well, having run with -onlynet=ipv6 helped getting your peers.dat filled with recent ipv6 addresses
823 2012-09-02 21:16:20 <Diapolo> sipa: got it, but it's the same discussion for listening or? one could argue onlynet should block and one could say (as you did in your example) I want to listen to that address
824 2012-09-02 21:17:31 <Diapolo> What I like about current behaviour, there is less special casing for things that would be nice to have for <net>, even when I have blocked it.
825 2012-09-02 21:19:41 <denisx> sipa: my daemon is running 24/7 for month now, hope it helps to use ipv6 too
826 2012-09-02 21:22:16 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
827 2012-09-02 21:22:53 <denisx> btw. 0.7rc1 did compile without any change on the source on freebsd
828 2012-09-02 21:24:31 <sipa> oh, nice
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830 2012-09-02 21:28:27 <Diapolo> sipa: another strange thing, when using -onlynet="Tor" the -listen does not work as IsLimited is true for IPv6 and IPv4 then, which prevents us to listen on any address
831 2012-09-02 21:29:57 <sipa> logical result, but not what people expect probably
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833 2012-09-02 21:31:22 <Diapolo> I wanted to test a Paranoid-setup
834 2012-09-02 21:32:20 <sipa> that's probably a good reason to not make -onlynet prevent binding to explicitly specified addresses
835 2012-09-02 21:33:17 <Diapolo> sipa: as Tor is on top of IPv4 / IPv6 it should listen to be usable ... I would expect -onlynet="Tor" to use the (Tor) proxy for in/out connections
836 2012-09-02 21:33:40 <sipa> you can't use a proxy for incoming connections
837 2012-09-02 21:33:53 <Diapolo> damn I always forget that ...
838 2012-09-02 21:34:20 <sipa> the point is that "listening for tor" implies listening on some place where the tor daemon will contact you (127.0.0.1, typically)
839 2012-09-02 21:34:30 <sipa> which is IPv4
840 2012-09-02 21:34:36 <Diapolo> ... for nor
841 2012-09-02 21:34:38 <Diapolo> now
842 2012-09-02 21:34:40 <Diapolo> yes
843 2012-09-02 21:35:57 <sipa> thanks for working on the network-config part, by the way
844 2012-09-02 21:36:05 <sipa> gives me some time to spend on other things :)
845 2012-09-02 21:36:33 <Diapolo> I really love to make things better, I'm no inventer ^^
846 2012-09-02 21:37:23 <Diapolo> inventor
847 2012-09-02 21:43:59 <Diapolo> sipa: To reflect -onlynet="Tor" should allow -listen to Bind() to inaddr_any and I need to take care of the IsLimited() check in the Bind() function, correct?
848 2012-09-02 21:44:48 <sipa> Diapolo: i think that the perfect do-what-i-mean behaviour would be quite complex, and probably hard to explain
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850 2012-09-02 21:45:22 <sipa> i'd say -onlynet=X means: by default, do not listen by default on anything but X
851 2012-09-02 21:45:33 <sipa> but still allow an explciit -bind to listen on it
852 2012-09-02 21:46:11 <Diapolo> sounds good, so I could allow -bind=127.0.0.1 to use Tor hs
853 2012-09-02 21:46:30 <sipa> indeed
854 2012-09-02 21:47:27 <Diapolo> I have my homework for tomorrow and you can work now, as I'm leaving ;).
855 2012-09-02 21:47:37 <sipa> do-what-i-mean would probably imply making -onlynet=tor listen by default on 127.0.0.1, but i think that's a special case too much
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857 2012-09-02 21:49:01 <Diapolo> n8
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