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   8 2012-09-06 00:11:24 <shamoon> are tx fees in the block header?
   9 2012-09-06 00:11:30 <sipa> no
  10 2012-09-06 00:11:36 <shamoon> so how do i get the fees for a block?
  11 2012-09-06 00:11:38 <sipa> transactions are transactions
  12 2012-09-06 00:11:52 <sipa> sum the fees of all transactions in it
  13 2012-09-06 00:11:54 <shamoon> so i need to add all the fees for a transaction?
  14 2012-09-06 00:11:54 <shamoon> got it
  15 2012-09-06 00:12:13 <shamoon> thanks sipa
  16 2012-09-06 00:13:38 <shamoon> does getrawtransaction give me the fee?
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  18 2012-09-06 00:14:58 <sipa> no, it cannot
  19 2012-09-06 00:15:07 <shamoon> hmmm - then how do i get a fee for a transaction?
  20 2012-09-06 00:15:22 <sipa> actually, let me check
  21 2012-09-06 00:16:04 <shamoon> i don't see it in there
  22 2012-09-06 00:16:21 <sipa> then you need to check the transaction inputs
  23 2012-09-06 00:16:53 <shamoon> okay, i found the input
  24 2012-09-06 00:16:58 <shamoon> and i check that tx
  25 2012-09-06 00:17:05 <shamoon> and it has 2 vout's
  26 2012-09-06 00:17:37 <sipa> the input mentions which #output is consumed
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  30 2012-09-06 00:19:22 <shamoon> right
  31 2012-09-06 00:19:29 <shamoon> so i found tht
  32 2012-09-06 00:19:30 <shamoon> but no fee
  33 2012-09-06 00:21:15 <sipa> fee is just sum(outputs) - sum(inputs)
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  48 2012-09-06 00:56:19 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: hah!, nice...well hopefully they will just switch to op_drop then
  49 2012-09-06 01:00:18 <gmaxwell> hopefully they will stop packing @#$@ messages into the blockchain at all.
  50 2012-09-06 01:00:35 <sipa> i'm writing a mail
  51 2012-09-06 01:01:24 <gmaxwell> I suppose it's inevitable now that most of the coin creation is behind us that we're going to see increasing activity from people trying to make a quick buck without concern for the long term success of the system; lets hope it doesn't inspire a great big race to the bottom.
  52 2012-09-06 01:01:25 <BlueMatt> tell them to make us a cool payment protocol :)
  53 2012-09-06 01:03:33 one_zero has left ()
  54 2012-09-06 01:04:52 <sipa> am i
  55 2012-09-06 01:05:00 <sipa> s/am i/i am/
  56 2012-09-06 01:12:10 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: hopefully they will stop trying to pollute the coin chain
  57 2012-09-06 01:12:23 <BlueMatt> well obv thats preferable
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  61 2012-09-06 01:20:51 <jaxtr> coin chain a comin down!
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  78 2012-09-06 02:10:14 <sipa> it seems leveldb batch writes aren't fully atomic
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  83 2012-09-06 02:12:47 <kjj_> that's not entirely surprising
  84 2012-09-06 02:13:33 <sipa> well, they are introduced in the documentation under "atomic updates"
  85 2012-09-06 02:13:47 <kjj_> heh.  atomic is easier to write than to do
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  88 2012-09-06 02:24:35 <sipa> it's very unfortunate, though
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 121 2012-09-06 04:27:12 <gmaxwell> I'm baffled by this:
 122 2012-09-06 04:27:13 <gmaxwell> -rw-------. 1 testnet01 testnet01 504283136 Jul 27 02:55 wallet.dat
 123 2012-09-06 04:27:24 <gmaxwell> especially since this wallet hasn't been used for any crazy stunts.
 124 2012-09-06 04:32:34 <jgarzik> -rw------- 1 jgarzik jgarzik   172032 Sep  6 04:21 wallet.dat
 125 2012-09-06 04:33:01 <jgarzik> that's one CPU core, testnet3 wallet
 126 2012-09-06 04:34:10 <gmaxwell> $ ~/bitcoin/src/bitcoind listtransactions "*" 100000 | grep txid | wc -l
 127 2012-09-06 04:34:10 <gmaxwell> 6707
 128 2012-09-06 04:34:22 <gmaxwell> (most of them generations)
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 130 2012-09-06 04:34:56 <gmaxwell> 352 orphan
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 132 2012-09-06 04:35:35 <jgarzik> 129 here, for listtransactions||
 133 2012-09-06 04:36:28 <jgarzik> seems like your wallet.dat should be ~8MB not ~500MB
 134 2012-09-06 04:36:35 <gmaxwell> right.
 135 2012-09-06 04:38:15 B0g4r7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 136 2012-09-06 04:38:23 <gmaxwell> gah. okay nevermind. that _is_ the wallet that has a lot of crap in it.
 137 2012-09-06 04:50:39 <gmaxwell> so why is it that getinfo/getbalance  give different results than getbalance "*"  ?
 138 2012-09-06 04:52:14 <gmaxwell> and why the heck is getinfo reserving a keypool address?
 139 2012-09-06 04:52:15 midnightmagic is now known as tempmagic
 140 2012-09-06 04:56:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yeah the '*' stuff was always a mess
 141 2012-09-06 04:57:25 <jgarzik> keypool behavior is expected too, though I don't recall why
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 143 2012-09-06 04:58:17 <gmaxwell> I'm remembering '*' being goofy (I know it calculates it entirely differently) but I can't remember why it gives a different result.
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 147 2012-09-06 05:01:50 <gmaxwell> summing listunspent gives me yet another value. But I think thats some difference in how the number of confirmations test is applied wrt immature inputs.
 148 2012-09-06 05:03:22 <jgarzik> getinfo's balance ignores the accounts system
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 150 2012-09-06 05:05:51 <gmaxwell> and I thought '*' was also, effectively supposted to do that?
 151 2012-09-06 05:11:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: in theory, but practice differs
 152 2012-09-06 05:13:50 <jgarzik> blank account names and '*' as an account name wildcard were awful choices, too, given their usage from the shell
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 280 2012-09-06 09:04:40 siefca has joined
 281 2012-09-06 09:04:48 <siefca> hi guys
 282 2012-09-06 09:05:16 <siefca> Is the relaying fee implemented or it's just on the Wiki?
 283 2012-09-06 09:05:29 tucenaber has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 284 2012-09-06 09:05:33 <siefca> I'm trying to understand the statement from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 285 2012-09-06 09:05:38 <siefca> "Relay a transaction to other Bitcoin hosts: 0.0001 BTC"
 286 2012-09-06 09:06:21 <siefca> How it's done (if it is implemented)?
 287 2012-09-06 09:06:23 <Luke-Jr> siefca: the relayer doesn't get it, but yes
 288 2012-09-06 09:06:35 <Luke-Jr> transactions aren't relayed by default unless that fee is met
 289 2012-09-06 09:06:46 <siefca> Oh I see
 290 2012-09-06 09:06:58 <siefca> So that's some kind of spam protection, a limit
 291 2012-09-06 09:07:08 <siefca> Not a reward for being a proxy
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 316 2012-09-06 09:55:07 <amiller> what's a unit of computation
 317 2012-09-06 09:56:04 <amiller> a flops? a hash? a "bit"?
 318 2012-09-06 09:56:04 <coingenuity> 1cBit
 319 2012-09-06 09:56:07 <amiller> i want to say a bit
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 323 2012-09-06 09:58:31 <Diablo-D3> amiller: you mean a hash?
 324 2012-09-06 09:58:46 <Diablo-D3> or rather, mhash, no one uses any smaller prefix
 325 2012-09-06 09:58:59 <Diablo-D3> mhash, ghash, thash, etc
 326 2012-09-06 09:59:31 Fanquake has joined
 327 2012-09-06 09:59:46 <amiller> what's the closest physical quantity it's associated with
 328 2012-09-06 09:59:49 <amiller> probably a joule
 329 2012-09-06 10:00:04 <Diablo-D3> joule/watt
 330 2012-09-06 10:00:10 <Diablo-D3> or dollar
 331 2012-09-06 10:00:40 <amiller> two people working together with a delay in between them have more of it than either of them separately
 332 2012-09-06 10:00:45 <Diablo-D3> anyone who does serious financial math does calculations in both mhash/dollar and mhash/watt
 333 2012-09-06 10:01:03 spaola has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 334 2012-09-06 10:01:11 <Diablo-D3> if you're not getting enough mhash for your TCO then you have a problem
 335 2012-09-06 10:02:32 Fanquake has left ()
 336 2012-09-06 10:03:44 <amiller> two women can't have a baby in 4.5 months
 337 2012-09-06 10:03:57 <AEonCIpher> adoption
 338 2012-09-06 10:04:20 molecular has joined
 339 2012-09-06 10:04:59 <edcba> ok 0.5 baby in 5 monts ?
 340 2012-09-06 10:05:02 <edcba> months
 341 2012-09-06 10:11:25 <TD> BlueMatt: yt?
 342 2012-09-06 10:13:10 <AEonCIpher> wait
 343 2012-09-06 10:13:28 <AEonCIpher> are you asking for 0.5 bitcoins for a baby to be delivered in 5 months?
 344 2012-09-06 10:15:07 <Varan> I'm trying too parse http://blockchain.info/tx/b57168c6b9bafe1a7a14ffdd3e4069d88e77f5ef41b931d25205b96c309526cf using https://github.com/znort987/blockparser but the last output key cannot be decomrpressed
 345 2012-09-06 10:15:18 <Varan> does anyone know what is up with that output?
 346 2012-09-06 10:17:53 <TD> it's just a pay-to-pubkey output
 347 2012-09-06 10:17:59 <TD> instead of pay-to-address
 348 2012-09-06 10:19:07 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 349 2012-09-06 10:26:02 <siefca> In transactions, each input must be signed to ulock funds, is the whole transaction also signed?
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 362 2012-09-06 10:43:57 <_dr> siefca: the sig in the input is a signature of the transaction (well, of a hash of the tx)
 363 2012-09-06 10:44:05 <_dr> siefca: I think :)
 364 2012-09-06 10:44:49 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 365 2012-09-06 10:49:39 <Joric> it's complicated ) it involves making a copy of the original TX, and modifying/hashing/signing input scripts
 366 2012-09-06 10:50:01 <Joric> tx itself is not signed just double hashed
 367 2012-09-06 10:55:33 neofutur has joined
 368 2012-09-06 10:55:44 <neofutur> just added an rss price feed tool in the bitcoin simple php tools
 369 2012-09-06 10:55:49 <neofutur> example : http://p.b.gw.gd/pricefeed/bitcoin_price_feed.php discussion on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68205.msg1164417#msg1164417
 370 2012-09-06 10:55:55 <neofutur> comments welcome
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 376 2012-09-06 11:01:25 <Joric> siefca, or rather, it's signed several times, once for each input )
 377 2012-09-06 11:01:53 <sipa> TD: it's not a pay-to-pubkey but a blockchain.info transaction message
 378 2012-09-06 11:02:47 osxorgate has joined
 379 2012-09-06 11:04:40 <siefca> Thx guys :)
 380 2012-09-06 11:05:45 osxorgat_ has joined
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 384 2012-09-06 11:11:04 <Varan> sipa, oke ... because the blockparser tool assumed it to be a compressed pub key ... does that look similar?
 385 2012-09-06 11:11:43 <Varan> do you have any info on this transaction message stuff?
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 395 2012-09-06 11:31:53 <TD> sipa: ?
 396 2012-09-06 11:32:04 <TD> it's a string?
 397 2012-09-06 11:32:09 <TD> "This is a test message."
 398 2012-09-06 11:32:24 <TD> that's a stupid feature
 399 2012-09-06 11:32:30 * TD shakes his head at piuk
 400 2012-09-06 11:32:43 <TD> what's wrong with a good old txid->msg database?
 401 2012-09-06 11:35:59 testnode9 has joined
 402 2012-09-06 11:38:52 <sipa> TD: i've already mailed him
 403 2012-09-06 11:39:04 <TD> i didn't get anywhere when i mailed him about his broken qrcodes
 404 2012-09-06 11:39:49 <sipa> gavin and matt complained on the forum about it, too
 405 2012-09-06 11:44:02 <Varan> sipa, do you have a forum link?
 406 2012-09-06 11:45:33 <Varan> http://blockexplorer.com/searchgo/b57168c6b9bafe1a7a14ffdd3e4069d88e77f5ef41b931d25205b96c309526cf blockexplorer also cannot handle it
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 412 2012-09-06 11:50:17 <Joric> look what he sent to me! https://blockchain.info/tx/3d29f43a3278281192943276049c15e5f0d8c7e75d4d99a4cd6693113a948f48
 413 2012-09-06 11:50:27 da2ce7 has joined
 414 2012-09-06 11:55:21 <sipa> TD: by the way, it seems leveldb batch writes aren't entirely atomic?
 415 2012-09-06 11:55:27 <TD> they aren't?
 416 2012-09-06 11:55:45 <TD> i think "batch write" means the data gets appended to the log file in one go
 417 2012-09-06 11:56:21 <sipa> TD: i'm not completely sure, but i've done some tests with kill -KILL'ing bitcoind while importing blocks, and every 10 tries or so, i end up with a state where the "best block" is not updated, but some of the inputs are already spent
 418 2012-09-06 11:57:00 <TD> hmm. that's odd.
 419 2012-09-06 11:57:02 <sipa> (and that is always done in one batch
 420 2012-09-06 11:57:38 <sipa> if i use smaller batches, the problem occurs less frequently, but still
 421 2012-09-06 11:58:38 denisx has joined
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 423 2012-09-06 11:59:33 <sipa> that's not a problem, however; i'm going to try writing the best block first, and at the end a "block update complete" marker, so i can recover from a partial write by using the undo data
 424 2012-09-06 12:00:00 <TD> ok. it does sound bogus though
 425 2012-09-06 12:00:28 <sipa> well, i may have a programming error too, of course
 426 2012-09-06 12:00:47 <sipa> but i don't see how that can cause what i observe
 427 2012-09-06 12:01:18 <TD> the api is pretty straightforward. hard to imagine how such a bug could occurr
 428 2012-09-06 12:01:20 <TD> occur
 429 2012-09-06 12:01:42 <denisx> anybody have seen this? http://pastebin.com/1j1yzQ9S
 430 2012-09-06 12:02:32 <edcba> has someone paid ?
 431 2012-09-06 12:02:42 <sipa> denisx: assumed to be a hoax
 432 2012-09-06 12:03:03 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 433 2012-09-06 12:03:48 JZavala has joined
 434 2012-09-06 12:03:50 <TD> sipa: have you tried with paranoid_checks=true?
 435 2012-09-06 12:04:52 <sipa> hmm, no
 436 2012-09-06 12:05:15 <sipa> should try that first
 437 2012-09-06 12:06:15 <TD> http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=87
 438 2012-09-06 12:06:26 <TD> you might also want to try that test
 439 2012-09-06 12:07:58 <sturles> Hehe, the full release is currently leading. :-)
 440 2012-09-06 12:08:24 <sipa> sturles: ?
 441 2012-09-06 12:11:05 att has joined
 442 2012-09-06 12:14:24 <sipa> TD: paranoid_checks doesn't seem to help
 443 2012-09-06 12:14:34 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 444 2012-09-06 12:15:20 <sturles> sipa: I was refering to the link from denisx.
 445 2012-09-06 12:15:36 <sturles> Both addresses have received payments.
 446 2012-09-06 12:16:22 <sipa> bah
 447 2012-09-06 12:16:54 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 449 2012-09-06 12:18:37 <TD> sipa: yeah i don't see any obvious problems with your code.
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 452 2012-09-06 12:19:13 <TD> looking at how leveldb is implemented, i don't see any obvious way it can be non-atomic either. writebatches are appended to the log as (simplifying) <length><records> and then applied to the memtable when the log is read back under a lock
 453 2012-09-06 12:19:30 <TD> even if somehow only half a writebatch gets sent to the OS (not possible?) it should be detected
 454 2012-09-06 12:20:29 <TD> it's definitely not possible that mapCoins contains a mix of  coins?
 455 2012-09-06 12:21:22 <sipa> hmm, i could test shutting down cleanly after a writebatch, and see if it still occurs
 456 2012-09-06 12:21:42 <TD> that's a good idea
 457 2012-09-06 12:22:19 <sipa> then again, recovery code that is able to go back to a known-good state may be useful for other occassions as well
 458 2012-09-06 12:23:17 da2ce7 has joined
 459 2012-09-06 12:23:44 <TD> yes but it's still worth investigating this
 460 2012-09-06 12:24:49 <sipa> indeed
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 469 2012-09-06 12:32:25 <TD> sipa: i can raise the matter with sanjay if you can boil down the issue to a standalone test case. leveldb writes are clearly meant to be atomic from the docs and the code
 470 2012-09-06 12:32:44 <sipa> TD: good, but i'll investigate further firs
 471 2012-09-06 12:32:49 <TD> thanks
 472 2012-09-06 12:34:47 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 473 2012-09-06 12:34:59 <denisx> how do I explain what a bitcoin address is? it is a base58 encoded public key from a public/private keypair?
 474 2012-09-06 12:35:20 <kjj_> base58 encoded hash of a public key
 475 2012-09-06 12:36:28 <lianj> with a version and checksum
 476 2012-09-06 12:37:53 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 477 2012-09-06 12:38:19 <kjj_> transactions are signed using the private key.  to redeem them, the public key must be provided to verify the signature, and the hash of that public key must match the hash in the address so that we know the key pair belongs to the intended recipient
 478 2012-09-06 12:40:35 <kjj_> it gets more complicated in P2SH.  in P2SH, the address is the hash of the script, which hopefully includes one or more public key hashes
 479 2012-09-06 12:40:58 <upb> why are the roles of public and private keys switched tho?
 480 2012-09-06 12:41:03 <upb> whats the rationale
 481 2012-09-06 12:41:07 <kjj_> what do you mean?
 482 2012-09-06 12:41:09 <sipa> switched?
 483 2012-09-06 12:41:16 <kjj_> the private keys are kept private
 484 2012-09-06 12:41:35 <sipa> and the public keys are public :)
 485 2012-09-06 12:41:40 <kjj_> the public keys are kept private for as long as possible too, only released when needed
 486 2012-09-06 12:41:48 <upb> 'to redeem them, the public key must be provided to verify the signature'
 487 2012-09-06 12:41:56 <sipa> well, yes
 488 2012-09-06 12:42:04 <sipa> but primarily, the signature must be provided
 489 2012-09-06 12:42:18 <upb> ahhh
 490 2012-09-06 12:42:20 <upb> ok
 491 2012-09-06 12:42:22 <sipa> the public key is just added as a convenience, because the verified might not yet know it
 492 2012-09-06 12:42:27 <sipa> *verifier
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 494 2012-09-06 12:49:25 <sipa> TD: light evidence that writebatch is indeed atomic; i write the new latest block twice, once before and once after editing the transactions, and they always result in the same, yet the problem remains
 495 2012-09-06 12:49:55 <sipa> the second one is even written in a separate batch, and even that one matches
 496 2012-09-06 12:50:08 <sipa> so i assume a problem in my code
 497 2012-09-06 12:50:08 <TD> "they always result in the same"?
 498 2012-09-06 12:50:10 <TD> hm, ok
 499 2012-09-06 12:50:13 <TD> good :)
 500 2012-09-06 12:50:21 <kjj_> sipa: what is the problem?  my scrollback doesn't go deep enough to catch up
 501 2012-09-06 12:50:59 <sipa> TD: my assumption was that if a partial write occurred, the first best block would be the new one, but the second one would still be the old one
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 505 2012-09-06 12:53:19 <denisx> the first transaction to the hoax adress are bitvalues and says "prove it" ;)
 506 2012-09-06 12:54:01 ErnestoJuarell has joined
 507 2012-09-06 12:54:11 <TD> bitvalues?
 508 2012-09-06 12:54:30 <kjj_> I assume ASCII after the decimal point
 509 2012-09-06 12:56:01 <sipa> TD: text encoded in the txout amounts
 510 2012-09-06 12:56:39 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Client Quit)
 511 2012-09-06 12:58:21 <kjj_> ugh.  so many people on the forums trying to make services that assume that return to sender is possible
 512 2012-09-06 12:58:57 <TD> is it possible, if people don't use shared wallets
 513 2012-09-06 12:59:05 <TD> and i think that's a very basic thing that people need to get nailed into their heads
 514 2012-09-06 12:59:23 <sipa> even without a shared wallet
 515 2012-09-06 12:59:37 <kjj_> that is assuming a whole bunch of other stuff doesn't exist
 516 2012-09-06 12:59:39 <sipa> the fact that i send coins from a particular address doesn't mean i accept payments back there
 517 2012-09-06 12:59:53 <TD> it means you have the private keys
 518 2012-09-06 12:59:56 <sipa> so?
 519 2012-09-06 12:59:58 <kjj_> exactly.  that's what needs to get drilled into peoples heads
 520 2012-09-06 12:59:59 <TD> it may not be convenient for you
 521 2012-09-06 13:00:06 <TD> but you can certainly re-claim the new outputs
 522 2012-09-06 13:00:23 <sipa> ?agree
 523 2012-09-06 13:00:26 <sipa> -?
 524 2012-09-06 13:00:34 <sipa> but that doesn't mean it's the right way to do a payment
 525 2012-09-06 13:01:25 balrog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 528 2012-09-06 13:03:57 <TD> sure, it's not ideal, but in practice as long as people don't share wallets it will work with todays setup
 529 2012-09-06 13:03:57 <TD> in future a payment protocol is the right fix, as we all seem to have consensus on
 530 2012-09-06 13:03:57 <sipa> right
 531 2012-09-06 13:03:57 <sipa> i think it's just a bad thing that people build infrastructure that depends on payint back to sender addresses
 532 2012-09-06 13:03:57 <sipa> *paying
 533 2012-09-06 13:03:57 <sipa> but indeed; payment protocol
 534 2012-09-06 13:07:47 Karmaon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 535 2012-09-06 13:11:32 theorbtwo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 536 2012-09-06 13:14:55 <gmaxwell> 05:53 < TD> but you can certainly re-claim the new outputs
 537 2012-09-06 13:15:14 <gmaxwell> Even that is iffy, — you might have just deleted that wallet.dat after emptying it.
 538 2012-09-06 13:15:45 <kjj_> or my favorite, you pay a bill from dividends by directing your brokerage to send coins to an address
 539 2012-09-06 13:16:07 <TD> i knew you were going to say that
 540 2012-09-06 13:16:13 <gmaxwell> kjj_: sure thats the 'shared wallet' TD mentioned above.
 541 2012-09-06 13:16:14 <TD> if you just emptied the wallet there's no point in deleting it
 542 2012-09-06 13:16:16 <kjj_> I know, it is pretty much a shared wallet
 543 2012-09-06 13:16:32 <TD> i can't think of any reason to ever delete a wallet, actually. unless you're doing software development
 544 2012-09-06 13:16:59 <kjj_> I agree, there is no reason to ever delete keys that are out there
 545 2012-09-06 13:17:15 <gmaxwell> TD: You say this, but I know people do it. I have dozens of the damn things and I'm currently going through what feels like a herculean effort to go gather up all their damn private keys and merge them.
 546 2012-09-06 13:17:39 <kjj_> gmaxwell: infrastructure will spring up around bitcoin, lots of it will act like shared wallets.  safe or not, they are here to stay
 547 2012-09-06 13:17:59 <sipa> if the infrastructure had been built with a payment protocol, without the assumption that every pubkeyhash ever used by someone implies that's an address they accept payments at, there would not be any reason to keep keys and wallets around forever
 548 2012-09-06 13:17:59 <TD> i'm not saying nobody does it. i'm saying they shouldn't :) and yes i know, "return to sender" only works as long as people basically don't do unexpected things that deviate too much from the core design
 549 2012-09-06 13:18:10 <TD> i think it was satoshi who said "why would anyone ever delete a wallet?"
 550 2012-09-06 13:18:15 <TD> and in normal usage, you never would
 551 2012-09-06 13:18:30 <kjj_> gmaxwell: I agree on the wallet management.  it is very easy to end up with a messy tangle of wallets
 552 2012-09-06 13:18:51 <kjj_> but again, in time, utilities will spring up to manage keys.
 553 2012-09-06 13:18:59 <sipa> the necessity to keep keys and wallets alive, and keep scanning every transaction in the world for things that may credit some ancient key, is a major burden
 554 2012-09-06 13:19:24 <gmaxwell> TD: or when someone is forming joint-author transactions for anonymization purposes?
 555 2012-09-06 13:19:43 gavinandresen has joined
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 557 2012-09-06 13:20:06 <kjj_> I'm thinking that a utility for archiving keys would be great.  rather than delete the wallet, you feed it to the tool, it sucks out the keys, dumps the rest.  then, once a week or whenever, it scans the chain and sweeps anything it finds into an active address
 558 2012-09-06 13:20:20 <TD> those transactions that rely on theoretical non-existent software? :)
 559 2012-09-06 13:20:27 <TD> as i said, i'm not against a real solution like a payment protocol
 560 2012-09-06 13:20:29 freewil has joined
 561 2012-09-06 13:20:46 <TD> just pointing out that it's not a bad way to do returns today, if only people didn't insist on letting other people munge their wallets together with other people
 562 2012-09-06 13:21:03 <gmaxwell> TD: you can make them by hand with the reference client, I've done some on testnet now with people.
 563 2012-09-06 13:21:10 <gmaxwell> They're just not currently automated.
 564 2012-09-06 13:21:19 theorbtwo has joined
 565 2012-09-06 13:22:13 <sipa> it's certainly an easy solution in the current setting
 566 2012-09-06 13:24:09 * TD gives up :)
 567 2012-09-06 13:24:53 * gmaxwell continues beating TD's horse
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 569 2012-09-06 13:27:08 <kjj_> you guys fighting scared off pumpkin.  :(
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 571 2012-09-06 13:29:17 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@host-72-2-137-170.csinet.net|PiZZaMaN2K
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 576 2012-09-06 13:36:32 <shamoon> when building bitcoin (master), i get fatal error: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory
 577 2012-09-06 13:36:38 <shamoon> but i already installed miniupnpc
 578 2012-09-06 13:36:47 <sipa> which OS?
 579 2012-09-06 13:37:07 <shamoon> ubuntu
 580 2012-09-06 13:38:01 <kjj_> how did you install miniupnpc?  package, or source?
 581 2012-09-06 13:38:09 <shamoon> downloaded it
 582 2012-09-06 13:38:09 <sipa> you need libminiupnpc-dev
 583 2012-09-06 13:38:10 <shamoon> and hit make
 584 2012-09-06 13:38:23 <kjj_> did you follow up with "make install" ?
 585 2012-09-06 13:38:24 <sipa> you install the package
 586 2012-09-06 13:38:33 <shamoon> how do i install after make install?
 587 2012-09-06 13:38:57 <kjj_> sipa and I are telling you two different ways.  he is saying just grab the dev package.  it'll be easiest
 588 2012-09-06 13:42:18 <shamoon> done
 589 2012-09-06 13:42:19 <shamoon> thanks guys
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 593 2012-09-06 13:51:53 <sipa> TD: strange evidence: the transaction that fails to connect is always the last tx in the last block that was part of the previous batch write...
 594 2012-09-06 13:52:00 <Evilmax> cresci btc, cresci! ahahahahaha
 595 2012-09-06 13:52:29 shamoon has left ()
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 601 2012-09-06 14:19:54 <shamoon> ++: internal compiler error: Killed (program cc1plus)
 602 2012-09-06 14:19:56 <shamoon> new error
 603 2012-09-06 14:19:58 <shamoon> when compiling
 604 2012-09-06 14:20:19 <BlueMatt> oom?
 605 2012-09-06 14:20:32 <shamoon> ubuntu
 606 2012-09-06 14:20:35 <shamoon> bitcoin - master
 607 2012-09-06 14:20:37 <BlueMatt> out of memory?
 608 2012-09-06 14:20:41 <kjj_> out of memory?
 609 2012-09-06 14:20:52 <shamoon> perhaps
 610 2012-09-06 14:20:58 <shamoon> how would i know if that's it?
 611 2012-09-06 14:21:03 <kjj_> dmesg
 612 2012-09-06 14:21:17 <sipa> how much RAM do you have?
 613 2012-09-06 14:21:23 <kjj_> if you see a bunch of stuff about the oom-killer, that's what happened
 614 2012-09-06 14:21:26 <shamoon> Mem:    604356k total
 615 2012-09-06 14:21:47 <kjj_> no swap?  yeah, that's not enough to compile bitcoin, hasn't been for a few releases now
 616 2012-09-06 14:21:59 <shamoon> Swap:        0k
 617 2012-09-06 14:22:14 <kjj_> set up some swap, but it'll be painful.
 618 2012-09-06 14:22:24 <BlueMatt> I would have thought 0.7 with the rpc slit stuff would have helped a bit more...
 619 2012-09-06 14:22:25 <shamoon> how do i set up swap?
 620 2012-09-06 14:22:40 <kjj_> I got more than a day into a compile on my old 512 MB box before I drove in to the colo to add another DIMM
 621 2012-09-06 14:22:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: for the most part it just makes the high memory usage happen N times. :P
 622 2012-09-06 14:23:02 <kjj_> shamoon: is this a normal box with a hard drive?
 623 2012-09-06 14:23:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok, so split it further (and dont #include everything this time...)
 624 2012-09-06 14:23:21 <shamoon> it's an amazon AMI
 625 2012-09-06 14:23:41 <gmaxwell> shamoon: you're probably best off compiling someplace else and copying it over.
 626 2012-09-06 14:23:58 <shamoon> just copying bitcoind over?
 627 2012-09-06 14:24:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: A lot of it appears to be the template based json library.
 628 2012-09-06 14:24:09 <BlueMatt> yea, amazon ec2/ami stuff is incredibly slow
 629 2012-09-06 14:24:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ahhh
 630 2012-09-06 14:24:15 <kjj_> I'd throw you a copy of my statically linked bitcoind, but I don't use UPNP
 631 2012-09-06 14:24:42 <gmaxwell> well if you just want a binary without changes; you can use the official ones.
 632 2012-09-06 14:24:45 <kjj_> then again, I'm not sure if you need that at all on amazon
 633 2012-09-06 14:24:54 <shamoon> i want 0.7
 634 2012-09-06 14:25:02 <BlueMatt> so grab the official rcs
 635 2012-09-06 14:25:11 <shamoon> there's rc's out already?
 636 2012-09-06 14:25:11 <shamoon> nice
 637 2012-09-06 14:25:14 <BlueMatt> (is rc2 uploaded yet?)
 638 2012-09-06 14:25:20 <gmaxwell> shamoon: sure, there are official binaries of that.
 639 2012-09-06 14:25:28 <shamoon> oh sweet
 640 2012-09-06 14:25:50 <gmaxwell> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.0/test/   though the rc2 binaries aren't all up yet.
 641 2012-09-06 14:26:19 <sipa> i did an rc2 build, but didn't compare checksums with anyone
 642 2012-09-06 14:26:33 <BlueMatt> Im assuming wumpus' matched mine since they were pushed?
 643 2012-09-06 14:26:45 <shamoon> thanks gmaxwell
 644 2012-09-06 14:30:34 <sipa> TD: ok, reproduced the error with a clean shutdown; definitely a bug in my code
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 646 2012-09-06 14:30:59 <gmaxwell> whew.
 647 2012-09-06 14:33:13 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 649 2012-09-06 14:34:58 <gavinandresen> sipa : thanks for building rc2.
 650 2012-09-06 14:35:11 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt : can you gitian build 0.7.0rc2 ?
 651 2012-09-06 14:35:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: did it last night
 652 2012-09-06 14:35:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: cool, output matched sipa?
 653 2012-09-06 14:35:43 <BlueMatt> sipa hasnt pushed his yet afaik
 654 2012-09-06 14:36:03 <sipa> now i did
 655 2012-09-06 14:36:28 <gavinandresen> I uploaded osx rc2 images last night, but can't gitian build right now
 656 2012-09-06 14:36:37 <gavinandresen> sipa: are you building using lxc ?
 657 2012-09-06 14:36:40 <sipa> yes
 658 2012-09-06 14:36:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: Did you happen to record how you got that working?
 659 2012-09-06 14:36:55 <sipa> my windows build matches wumpus', but not BlueMatt's
 660 2012-09-06 14:37:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: where does it fail?
 661 2012-09-06 14:37:19 <sipa> i had a few problems, but those were from not following the FAQ
 662 2012-09-06 14:37:25 <sipa> s/FAQ/README/
 663 2012-09-06 14:37:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: Something about mounting devices, I don't know— haven't tried for a while.
 664 2012-09-06 14:37:50 <gavinandresen> I'm seeing if I can get lxc running inside a VirtualBox on my mac.... (while I wait for a new hard drive for my kvm machine)
 665 2012-09-06 14:38:14 Varan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 666 2012-09-06 14:38:25 <BlueMatt> sipa: thats not what I see...
 667 2012-09-06 14:38:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: how so?
 668 2012-09-06 14:39:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: nevermind
 669 2012-09-06 14:39:11 <BlueMatt> can I ask why anyone pushed sigs that dont match?
 670 2012-09-06 14:39:32 <sipa> i push whatever i get
 671 2012-09-06 14:39:58 <BlueMatt> (seems to me like no one cares about protocol for gitian stuff...)
 672 2012-09-06 14:40:24 <sipa> what is the protocol for?
 673 2012-09-06 14:40:34 <BlueMatt> ie dont push sigs that dont match
 674 2012-09-06 14:40:37 <BlueMatt> wait for 3 sigs, etc
 675 2012-09-06 14:40:39 <sipa> why not?
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 677 2012-09-06 14:41:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: can you try again? i may recognize some of the errors i got
 678 2012-09-06 14:42:13 <BlueMatt> sipa: it breaks gverify and if there is a problem, it should be fixed, not just push stuff that doesnt match and move on...
 679 2012-09-06 14:42:59 <sipa> hmm, ok; i don't use gverify really
 680 2012-09-06 14:43:31 <sipa> and if everyone pushes their sigs it's much easier to see whose build deviates
 681 2012-09-06 14:43:57 <gavinandresen> yes, pushing non-matching sigs seems like the right thing to do.  Fixing problems then pusing AGAIN also seems like the right thing to do
 682 2012-09-06 14:44:04 <sipa> if you push first, and wumpus and me get the same hashes that differ from yours, we'll both think we have a problem
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 685 2012-09-06 14:45:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: let me know how lxc works out
 686 2012-09-06 14:45:07 <BlueMatt> ok, so apparently my build (which .bash_history indicates was built with the correct tag) used an old copy of src to build...
 687 2012-09-06 14:45:10 <gavinandresen> Seems to me correct protocol is:  push what you got.  If there's a mismatch, fix it, then push again with a commit message that explains what caused the mismatch.
 688 2012-09-06 14:46:26 <BlueMatt> Jun 20 18:12:14 <BlueMatt>	sipa: please dont push sigs to gitian.sigs if they dont match, it freaks gverify out
 689 2012-09-06 14:46:26 <BlueMatt> Jun 20 18:12:24 <sipa>	BlueMatt: ok
 690 2012-09-06 14:46:33 <BlueMatt> knew that existed somewhere
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 692 2012-09-06 14:47:39 <BlueMatt> yea...building with -c bitcoin=0.7.0rc2 built 0.7.0rc1....
 693 2012-09-06 14:48:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: i use a script that just dumps the correct source tree into gitian, and uses that
 694 2012-09-06 14:48:40 <sipa> oh.. maybe you need -c bitcoin=*v*0.7.0rc2 ?
 695 2012-09-06 14:48:47 <BlueMatt> hmm? no
 696 2012-09-06 14:49:19 <sipa> that is the tagname, no?
 697 2012-09-06 14:49:46 <BlueMatt> yea, but devrandom broke git reset in 74652f1881c662a0343ed37635bc3ad09bc55d2d
 698 2012-09-06 14:50:15 <BlueMatt> git checkout -q #{remote["commit"]} && git reset -q --hard to just git reset -q --hard && git clean -q -f -d
 699 2012-09-06 14:50:34 <sipa> i'm sure he likes pull requests :)
 700 2012-09-06 14:53:11 Bwild has joined
 701 2012-09-06 14:53:35 <gavinandresen> what package is vmbuilder in ?
 702 2012-09-06 14:53:49 <BlueMatt> python-vbuilder or something like that iirc
 703 2012-09-06 14:53:57 <BlueMatt> (just type vmbuilder in bash and it should tell you)
 704 2012-09-06 14:54:00 <sipa> python-vm-builder
 705 2012-09-06 14:54:13 <sipa> TD, gmaxwell: ok, bug found and fixed; i can't easily break things by kill -KILL'ing during loadblocks
 706 2012-09-06 14:54:15 <gavinandresen> thanks.  I'll submit a pull against the gitian-builder/README.md about that....
 707 2012-09-06 14:54:29 <TD> yay
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 710 2012-09-06 14:56:42 <sipa> gmaxwell's idea of a log-structure blockdev to check consistency at arbitrary points in time during a sync would be nice as a test, though
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 721 2012-09-06 15:06:40 <BlueMatt> sipa/gavinandresen: my point is less dont push your sigs if they seem wrong, my point is... before pushing check your sigs, and compare them to whats already there...if there is a problem diff it and actually look for the issue instead of pushing and not doing anything about it
 722 2012-09-06 15:08:22 <gavinandresen> I agree with the "look for the issue" bit.  There should be a "troubleshooting.txt" file in gitian.sigs that tells us non-gitian-experts how to do that.
 723 2012-09-06 15:08:58 <BlueMatt> diff .../bitcoin-build.assert .../bitcoin-build.assert | grep -v deb | grep -v "^< $"
 724 2012-09-06 15:10:11 <gavinandresen> what does that second grep do?
 725 2012-09-06 15:10:19 <BlueMatt> get rid of annoying blank lines
 726 2012-09-06 15:10:52 <BlueMatt> may need a grep -v "^> $" too, but thats just the command I used a minute ago
 727 2012-09-06 15:11:28 <gavinandresen> So a difference is found (I assume...)  ... then what?
 728 2012-09-06 15:11:42 <BlueMatt> look at the file, if its a binary, do more digging
 729 2012-09-06 15:11:43 <gavinandresen> (and don't tell me, put it in a troubleshooting.txt and commit it)
 730 2012-09-06 15:11:50 RainbowDashh has joined
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 732 2012-09-06 15:11:53 <BlueMatt> ...
 733 2012-09-06 15:12:36 <BlueMatt> aside from if its a *.h/cpp, which it just was, the answer would be "do more digging"
 734 2012-09-06 15:12:38 <sipa> 1) verify the source is actually identical
 735 2012-09-06 15:12:58 <sipa> 2) check whether there are maybe installed packages whose version differs
 736 2012-09-06 15:13:02 <gavinandresen> make sure you've got the lastest gitian-builder
 737 2012-09-06 15:13:17 <gavinandresen> (ooh, last-est, I kinda like that)
 738 2012-09-06 15:13:27 <sipa> last-est?
 739 2012-09-06 15:13:32 <sipa> ah!
 740 2012-09-06 15:13:33 <gavinandresen> instead of latest
 741 2012-09-06 15:13:59 <sipa> the autocorrect function in my visual cortex didn't even emit a warning about that!
 742 2012-09-06 15:14:09 <Eliel> :D
 743 2012-09-06 15:14:12 <sipa> (read: i missed it)
 744 2012-09-06 15:14:31 <BlueMatt> that may be the most convoluted way to say I missed it ive ever seen
 745 2012-09-06 15:14:48 * sipa will try to be more convoluted next time
 746 2012-09-06 15:15:01 <kjj_> BlueMatt: you don't read bash.org, do you?
 747 2012-09-06 15:15:09 <BlueMatt> kjj_: ok...point taken
 748 2012-09-06 15:16:09 <sipa> BlueMatt: when I was a student, we did this play called 'revue', in which the characters were parodies of the professors... one typical type of joke was giving them very long lines to say something trivial
 749 2012-09-06 15:16:25 <BlueMatt> heh
 750 2012-09-06 15:18:07 <sipa> like "in addition, we also can't entirely exclude the possibility that there is a chance for ..." instead of "that's possible"
 751 2012-09-06 15:18:19 <BlueMatt> yep
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 753 2012-09-06 15:19:20 TwilightSparklee is now known as _Y_U_NO_BTC
 754 2012-09-06 15:19:30 <gavinandresen> all right, one make-base-vm done, one to go...
 755 2012-09-06 15:19:34 <Diablo-D3> sipa: heh
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 759 2012-09-06 15:30:19 <TD> tx propagation seems like at least 30 seconds at the moment :(
 760 2012-09-06 15:30:30 <TD> at least for a tx i just sent to go from my laptop to my server node (ie two random nodes)
 761 2012-09-06 15:31:45 <MC-Eeepc> thats not good
 762 2012-09-06 15:32:53 <TD> gavinandresen: how long do you anticipate turnaround time on 0.8 might be?
 763 2012-09-06 15:32:55 <MC-Eeepc> not good at all
 764 2012-09-06 15:33:12 <MC-Eeepc> perhaps something to do with a dearth of connectable nodes?
 765 2012-09-06 15:33:42 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: no, actually, that would probably help (depending on a number of factors)
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 768 2012-09-06 15:34:41 <MC-Eeepc> how? more connections = less hops to everywhere
 769 2012-09-06 15:34:57 <gavinandresen> TD: I dunno... I'd like it to be quicker than the 0.6-0.7 turnaround
 770 2012-09-06 15:35:01 <kjj_> I was thinking of making a high speed relay node.  little or no checking, just accept connections and pass messages around
 771 2012-09-06 15:35:22 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: depending on a number of factors, yes
 772 2012-09-06 15:35:22 <gmaxwell> kjj_: Your node will rapidly be blacklisted by all the other nodes.
 773 2012-09-06 15:35:35 <kjj_> yeah, that's why I haven't actually done it yet
 774 2012-09-06 15:35:42 <BlueMatt> kjj_: you cant relay if you dont check
 775 2012-09-06 15:35:51 <gavinandresen> you can, but you shouldn't
 776 2012-09-06 15:36:03 <BlueMatt> well, you can do anything, but protocol says no
 777 2012-09-06 15:36:27 <gmaxwell> TD: Whatever component of that delay is due to slow validation on spinning disk nodes should be greatly improved by ultraprune decreasing the working-set size.
 778 2012-09-06 15:36:31 olp has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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 780 2012-09-06 15:36:42 <gavinandresen> I was thinking about probabilistic checking/relaying this morning....
 781 2012-09-06 15:36:58 <BlueMatt> ehhh...bitcoin backbone
 782 2012-09-06 15:37:05 <BlueMatt> payment protocols
 783 2012-09-06 15:37:12 <BlueMatt> etc, etc
 784 2012-09-06 15:37:21 <gavinandresen> ... a rule like "If I've heard about this transaction from lots of my peers, then increase the chance of relaying without checking" might work nicely.
 785 2012-09-06 15:37:29 <BlueMatt> why?
 786 2012-09-06 15:37:52 <gmaxwell> 'meh'. I mean it might, but I don't think we really need it.
 787 2012-09-06 15:37:58 <kjj_> gavinandresen: the problem is that by the time you hear about it from lots of your peers, the less useful it is for you to pass it on
 788 2012-09-06 15:37:59 <gavinandresen> no, we don't need it yet
 789 2012-09-06 15:38:23 <BlueMatt> I'd argue we dont need it at all if we fix issues like lack of payment protocols
 790 2012-09-06 15:38:28 <gmaxwell> I am a bit fond of luke's 'preview' relaying; where you peer explicitly tells you that they didn't check it.
 791 2012-09-06 15:38:32 <TD> kjj_: that doesn't help at all. it'd just add latency.
 792 2012-09-06 15:38:35 <gavinandresen> kjj_ : if all the peers are doing probabilistic checking, then you get lots of checking at first then less and less....
 793 2012-09-06 15:38:43 <gavinandresen> (as it relays across the network)
 794 2012-09-06 15:38:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: bitcoin backbone
 795 2012-09-06 15:38:59 <TD> i think the ultraprune stuff would likely help
 796 2012-09-06 15:39:10 <TD> and just generally offloading signature checking to other cpus
 797 2012-09-06 15:39:13 <gmaxwell> TD: I'll eat my hat if it doesn't. :)
 798 2012-09-06 15:39:29 <gavinandresen> sure, there are plenty of optimizations to be done first
 799 2012-09-06 15:39:39 <BlueMatt> TD: what like threaded sig checking...someone implemented that...oh...
 800 2012-09-06 15:39:47 <gmaxwell> Also, node rotation will help, especially if peer performance is included in the decision of what peers get kept.
 801 2012-09-06 15:40:08 <gmaxwell> Right now we very likely have nodes that are horribly slow with 124 peers... while there are superfast nodes with just 20 peers.
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 806 2012-09-06 15:43:04 <TD> it would be useful if a node could push back and say "i'm going to drop you but try peer X"
 807 2012-09-06 15:43:13 <TD> and then peers would announce their current load in their addr broadcasts, maybe
 808 2012-09-06 15:43:18 <TD> so it can help to load balance the network more evenly
 809 2012-09-06 15:46:22 <gmaxwell> At least announcing 'overloaded' might be helpful. It's important to avoid making it possible for an attacker to make their peers much more attractive.
 810 2012-09-06 15:46:28 <TD> i'm seeing a ton of transactions in my log with insufficient fees
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 813 2012-09-06 15:47:07 <gmaxwell> TD: a couple days ago someone was trying some nanopenny flooding dos attack, might be back now.
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 815 2012-09-06 15:48:16 <TD> it's annoying that the log message doesn't tell you what the txid is of the tx with insufficient fees
 816 2012-09-06 15:48:20 <TD> (afaict)
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 819 2012-09-06 15:54:32 <jgarzik> indeed
 820 2012-09-06 15:55:02 * jgarzik was thinking the other day that should really log the txid
 821 2012-09-06 15:55:25 <jgarzik> as well as the fees -we- think it should have included
 822 2012-09-06 15:55:29 <gmaxwell> I suspect we want an in-memory circular buffer for detailed logging (avoiding privacy and space issues)
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 824 2012-09-06 15:58:17 <jgarzik> we log problem txids for other error situations, so it seems reasonable in the main debug.log here
 825 2012-09-06 15:58:55 <jgarzik> problem transactions are the sort of information we should prefer to log
 826 2012-09-06 15:59:21 <jgarzik> network anomaly detection
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 829 2012-09-06 16:11:55 <TD> even at hundreds of blocks per second syncing an entire chain is a drag
 830 2012-09-06 16:12:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: did you actually implement parallel signature checking within one block/transaction?
 831 2012-09-06 16:12:20 devrandom has joined
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 834 2012-09-06 16:14:42 Turingi has joined
 835 2012-09-06 16:14:52 <jgarzik> TD: I think downloading blk*.dat + reindexing will be nicer
 836 2012-09-06 16:15:04 <TD> i'm syncing an SPV wallet actually
 837 2012-09-06 16:15:08 <jgarzik> TD: sipa mentioned working on a reindexing solution
 838 2012-09-06 16:15:11 <jgarzik> ah
 839 2012-09-06 16:15:17 <TD> it's still annoyingly slow. because i have keys in the wallet that don't have an associated creation time
 840 2012-09-06 16:15:19 * TD grumbles
 841 2012-09-06 16:15:32 Turingi has left ()
 842 2012-09-06 16:16:33 <jgarzik> that's an interesting observation...  I could see how knowing ctime would help
 843 2012-09-06 16:21:34 <TD> it uses getheaders to scan up to the earliest key creation time faster
 844 2012-09-06 16:21:49 <TD> but obv if you have imported any keys without specifying a creation time, it has to start from scratch
 845 2012-09-06 16:25:01 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 846 2012-09-06 16:28:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: it was only per-block, but abstracting it to txes as well would have been pretty easy (throwing tx processing in a callback would have taken 10 seconds)
 847 2012-09-06 16:28:59 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: in-memory circular buffer is a great idea, along with an RPC command to dump it....
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 849 2012-09-06 16:32:27 <gavinandresen> sipa: is it normal to get WARNING: kvm not loaded, this will probably not work out   ... when doing a gbuild with USE_LXC=1   ?
 850 2012-09-06 16:32:51 <sipa> i suppose i didn't get the warning, as i did have kvm loaded
 851 2012-09-06 16:32:58 <sipa> so i can't comment
 852 2012-09-06 16:33:01 <gavinandresen> ok
 853 2012-09-06 16:33:23 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: new ultraprune+leveldb build ready
 854 2012-09-06 16:33:29 bonks has joined
 855 2012-09-06 16:34:03 <TD> gitian seems extremely complicated for what it does. is the VM really necessary?
 856 2012-09-06 16:34:12 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 857 2012-09-06 16:34:20 <sipa> TD: if you use LXC, no
 858 2012-09-06 16:34:44 <MC-Eeepc> sipa changelog?
 859 2012-09-06 16:37:00 <MC-Eeepc> its pretty well faster than normal bitcoin up to about 150k then starts choking for me
 860 2012-09-06 16:37:11 tempmagic is now known as midnightmagic
 861 2012-09-06 16:41:20 agricocb has joined
 862 2012-09-06 16:44:02 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: mostly a fix that should make it more robust when crashing (or disk unplugging)
 863 2012-09-06 16:44:11 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: also, maybe try using -dbcache=150
 864 2012-09-06 16:44:37 <MC-Eeepc> what does that do
 865 2012-09-06 16:46:28 <BlueMatt> devrandom: manuall pull-request: my master branch on github (the website wont update...)
 866 2012-09-06 16:46:51 <BlueMatt> (for gitian-builder)
 867 2012-09-06 16:47:25 graingert has joined
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 869 2012-09-06 16:49:02 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: use a larger memory cache for the coin db
 870 2012-09-06 16:49:11 <sipa> so it doesn't need to read from disk
 871 2012-09-06 16:49:22 CodeInChaos is now known as CodesInChaos
 872 2012-09-06 16:50:14 <MC-Eeepc> link?
 873 2012-09-06 16:50:22 ThomasV_ has quit (Client Quit)
 874 2012-09-06 16:50:39 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: https://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/ultraprune
 875 2012-09-06 16:51:01 <sipa> oh, http, not https
 876 2012-09-06 16:51:04 ThomasV has joined
 877 2012-09-06 16:51:50 <MC-Eeepc> oki
 878 2012-09-06 16:54:04 t7 has joined
 879 2012-09-06 16:54:09 <Joric> i only can open http not https
 880 2012-09-06 16:54:15 <sipa> yes, same
 881 2012-09-06 16:54:33 <sipa> i probably never configured an https server
 882 2012-09-06 16:54:58 <t7> i have done IIS with https ... :(
 883 2012-09-06 16:55:08 <BlueMatt> t7: oh gawd...
 884 2012-09-06 16:55:28 <t7> it was at work, not out of choice
 885 2012-09-06 16:55:45 <BlueMatt> have to configure IIS -> I would quit
 886 2012-09-06 16:55:51 <Joric> hope github pages will get https support i'd even buy a cert... it's rather dangerous to host sites there for now
 887 2012-09-06 16:56:12 <BlueMatt> iirc its possible, but you have to use some weird alternate url
 888 2012-09-06 16:57:22 <gmaxwell> Joric: IMHO the danger of it has very little to do with it supporting https or not.  For all you know even the janitor at github would have access to the server holding those customer supplied certs. Security is more than a URL. :P
 889 2012-09-06 16:59:03 graingert has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 890 2012-09-06 16:59:20 <t7> if its got that little padlock in the browser then its unhackable
 891 2012-09-06 16:59:25 graingert has joined
 892 2012-09-06 16:59:40 <sipa> haha
 893 2012-09-06 16:59:44 <BlueMatt> hehe
 894 2012-09-06 16:59:55 <graingert> hoho
 895 2012-09-06 17:01:06 <gmaxwell> (If anything, not using HTTPS means we avoid overstating the security of the site)
 896 2012-09-06 17:01:15 <t7> but i thought all the major cert authorities were giving keys to FBI etc?
 897 2012-09-06 17:01:43 <graingert> are downloads still served off of freenode?
 898 2012-09-06 17:01:50 <t7> i dont know why i think that. Maybe i read it somewhere
 899 2012-09-06 17:01:52 <graingert> http://bitcoin.org/ is down?
 900 2012-09-06 17:01:59 <gmaxwell> t7: they don't have to; every major government (and quite a few not so major ones) has their own browser-trusted CA.
 901 2012-09-06 17:02:03 <BlueMatt> graingert: yea, ddc me and Ill send you "the official binaries"
 902 2012-09-06 17:02:11 <gmaxwell> graingert: freenode? 0_o
 903 2012-09-06 17:02:12 <graingert> BlueMatt: y down?
 904 2012-09-06 17:02:14 <BlueMatt> always remember: the Chinese post office has a ca in your system....
 905 2012-09-06 17:02:25 <graingert> sorry
 906 2012-09-06 17:02:30 <graingert> I meant urm
 907 2012-09-06 17:02:38 <graingert> github crap edition
 908 2012-09-06 17:02:39 <t7> gmaxwell: does that mean they can snoop on me?
 909 2012-09-06 17:02:46 <graingert> *sourceforge
 910 2012-09-06 17:02:56 <t7> github slow edition
 911 2012-09-06 17:03:21 <t7> bitbucket looks really cool i need to check it out one day
 912 2012-09-06 17:03:45 olp has joined
 913 2012-09-06 17:04:21 <Joric> sipa, your ultraprune isn't going to prune my blockchain right away, is it? how to run it?
 914 2012-09-06 17:04:27 <graingert> gmaxwell: download packages on github are super nice: https://github.com/downloads/bitcoin/bitcoin/testnet3.zip
 915 2012-09-06 17:05:07 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 916 2012-09-06 17:05:43 <gavinandresen> Yay! LXC-inside-VirtualBox gitian build worked!
 917 2012-09-06 17:05:56 <MC-Eeepc> theres a question about this here in the UK right now
 918 2012-09-06 17:06:08 <MC-Eeepc> the govt wants to store everything for 12 months
 919 2012-09-06 17:06:12 <gmaxwell> t7: it means they can engage in active mitm attacks, same as they could do if your own CA was trecherous.
 920 2012-09-06 17:06:29 <MC-Eeepc> the question is are they going to "compell" CAs to make certs for them for gmail and stuff
 921 2012-09-06 17:06:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: perhaps ultraprune needs to be renamed.
 922 2012-09-06 17:07:07 <t7> if i got the cert from the site themselves, then im safe, right? you never give a private key to the CA?
 923 2012-09-06 17:07:58 <t7> MC-Eeepc: im gonna max out my bandwidth from random.org
 924 2012-09-06 17:08:05 <t7> fucking government
 925 2012-09-06 17:08:35 <gmaxwell> t7: right. At least until someone copies the private key off the server and then decrypts the traffic they logged from you months ago.
 926 2012-09-06 17:08:44 <gmaxwell> (Almost no one uses the DHE ciphersuites with SSL)
 927 2012-09-06 17:08:47 <MC-Eeepc> yeh the tories were dead against it when labour was in and it was called IMP
 928 2012-09-06 17:08:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: except google
 929 2012-09-06 17:09:02 <MC-Eeepc> now tories are in and hey suprise, its called CCDP and theyre all for it
 930 2012-09-06 17:09:32 <t7> i guess this is about money rather than actually wanting to monitor comms
 931 2012-09-06 17:09:45 <MC-Eeepc> points to shady actors in the security establishment making thier desires known to whatever govt gets in
 932 2012-09-06 17:09:49 <t7> same contractor has MPs in his pockets
 933 2012-09-06 17:09:52 <MC-Eeepc> IE people we cannot vote out
 934 2012-09-06 17:10:09 <gavinandresen> graingert: github https:// redirects to non-SSL http://cloud.github.com/....
 935 2012-09-06 17:10:49 <MC-Eeepc> its about money to the DPI box contractors who have made a killing in the middle east and asia, and are now looking to open up a domestic market
 936 2012-09-06 17:11:22 <graingert> gavinandresen: well that's dangerous
 937 2012-09-06 17:11:30 <graingert> gavinandresen: I still get bluebar
 938 2012-09-06 17:11:37 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 939 2012-09-06 17:11:54 <graingert> *greenbar
 940 2012-09-06 17:13:07 <gavinandresen> graingert: github should fix their redirects, I think.  They're using Amazon's cloudfront, which does support https.  I think.
 941 2012-09-06 17:13:10 <kjj_> the sooner the insane SSL PKI/CA model dies, the better.
 942 2012-09-06 17:13:40 <BlueMatt> kjj_: go write a 15th anti-ca standard to help the process along ;)
 943 2012-09-06 17:13:53 <BlueMatt> (xkcd #927)
 944 2012-09-06 17:14:13 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 945 2012-09-06 17:15:15 <graingert> it's all about namecoinsec
 946 2012-09-06 17:15:18 <MC-Eeepc> trustcoin?
 947 2012-09-06 17:16:16 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
 948 2012-09-06 17:18:03 <TD> no block for 40 minutes? :(   poolsize 2735
 949 2012-09-06 17:18:37 <TD> Joric: no it does not free up any disk space, indeed
 950 2012-09-06 17:18:46 <TD> Joric: or not much anyway. leveldb is more efficient on-disk than bdb, it seems
 951 2012-09-06 17:19:53 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 952 2012-09-06 17:21:14 <TD> it looks like the network is now constantly falling behind
 953 2012-09-06 17:21:20 <Joric> seems it created blktree/blocks/coins subdirectories must be it
 954 2012-09-06 17:21:21 <TD> blocks are only including a few hundred transactions
 955 2012-09-06 17:21:29 <TD> but the mempool routinely contains thousands
 956 2012-09-06 17:23:19 <MC-Eeepc> thats sounds bad
 957 2012-09-06 17:23:32 <gmaxwell> meh, depends on what the transactions are.
 958 2012-09-06 17:26:30 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 959 2012-09-06 17:27:57 <TD> ok, that block just cleared 1000
 960 2012-09-06 17:28:01 <TD> but the pool still has 2000 in it :(
 961 2012-09-06 17:28:29 <MC-Eeepc> why cant they all go in
 962 2012-09-06 17:29:15 <MC-Eeepc> oh wait each miner mines what it wants
 963 2012-09-06 17:29:19 <TD> yes
 964 2012-09-06 17:29:27 <MC-Eeepc> as long as its under the hash target
 965 2012-09-06 17:29:29 <TD> i guess most pools by now have artificially limited block size
 966 2012-09-06 17:29:33 gfinn has joined
 967 2012-09-06 17:29:43 <TD> unless the issue is the limited free-tx space
 968 2012-09-06 17:29:54 <TD> i don't recall the exact rules for tx inclusion, gavin tweaked them for 0.7 anyway
 969 2012-09-06 17:30:12 <MC-Eeepc> when propagation times are 30 seconds, isnt there an incentive to leep your blocks small so that you win a race
 970 2012-09-06 17:30:12 <BlueMatt> we need a bitcoin-backbone
 971 2012-09-06 17:30:21 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: yes
 972 2012-09-06 17:30:55 <MC-Eeepc> if bitcoin backbone is what i think it is you can stuff it
 973 2012-09-06 17:30:57 <TD> 30 seconds for a _single transaction_
 974 2012-09-06 17:30:59 <TD> it's larger for blocks
 975 2012-09-06 17:31:04 <TD> which is why pools are throttling the block size
 976 2012-09-06 17:31:07 <TD> so they win races ....
 977 2012-09-06 17:31:23 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: then you dont understand the purpose
 978 2012-09-06 17:31:31 <TD> lol
 979 2012-09-06 17:31:35 <TD> the backbone makes technical sense
 980 2012-09-06 17:32:05 <MC-Eeepc> why does the entire winning block have to be passed around, why not just transmit what txns make the block that everyone already has in the mempool
 981 2012-09-06 17:32:16 <BlueMatt> Ive seen too many people say "but it ruins the p2p nature of bitcoin!!!111one"
 982 2012-09-06 17:32:35 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: Ive got a branch for that...if you want to finish it
 983 2012-09-06 17:32:46 <kjj_> MC-Eeepc: not everyone has the same transactions.  there isn't "a mempool", each node has a potentially different pool
 984 2012-09-06 17:32:50 <TD> BlueMatt: what needs to be finished?
 985 2012-09-06 17:33:01 <BlueMatt> TD: its horribly non dos-resistant
 986 2012-09-06 17:33:08 <TD> how so?
 987 2012-09-06 17:33:28 <BlueMatt> TD: Ive been thinking Ill probably rip out the block as v<tx hash> stuff and deal with that later so the bloom stuff can get in quicker
 988 2012-09-06 17:33:44 <TD> or leave the code in but just disabled, with a comment explaining why?
 989 2012-09-06 17:33:58 <MC-Eeepc> well if a node cant make the block because he lacks txns, just request the full thing from one that can
 990 2012-09-06 17:33:59 <BlueMatt> TD: it doesnt take into account nodes sending you blocks and not giving you the txes, etc, etc
 991 2012-09-06 17:34:07 <TD> MC-Eeepc: the issue isn't bandwidth at the moment, it's the disk IO, that's why sipa has been working on it
 992 2012-09-06 17:34:12 <MC-Eeepc> even then it should help
 993 2012-09-06 17:34:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes; how about "turbo_edition" ?
 994 2012-09-06 17:34:14 <TD> BlueMatt: oh, i see.
 995 2012-09-06 17:34:19 <BlueMatt> TD: but I was gonna go back and fix the block downloading stuff big-time while I was at it, so...I got distracted
 996 2012-09-06 17:34:30 <TD> MC-Eeepc: that's what matts work does. it's a good idea and already thought of
 997 2012-09-06 17:34:32 <BlueMatt> (deuplicate block requests, etc)
 998 2012-09-06 17:34:44 <MC-Eeepc> goddammnit i will never have an original idea
 999 2012-09-06 17:34:48 <TD> :)
1000 2012-09-06 17:34:49 <TD> no you will
1001 2012-09-06 17:34:54 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: welcome to the club ;)
1002 2012-09-06 17:35:07 <TD> you're getting very close to the cutting edge ;)
1003 2012-09-06 17:35:23 * BlueMatt doesnt think he's ever had an original idea when it came to bitcoin...
1004 2012-09-06 17:35:33 <MC-Eeepc> bro i barely know how this shit works anyway and ive been here 2 years
1005 2012-09-06 17:35:54 <TD> ideas are cheap. implementations are expensive.
1006 2012-09-06 17:36:15 <MC-Eeepc> what is this backbone then
1007 2012-09-06 17:36:27 * TD -> home
1008 2012-09-06 17:36:42 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: it is what you are thinking, but its only there to help propagation times and ensure stability for big miners/merchants
1009 2012-09-06 17:36:57 <BlueMatt> they will still be a part of the p2p network, and that will still exist as an important part of bitcoin
1010 2012-09-06 17:37:33 <MC-Eeepc> im not enthralled
1011 2012-09-06 17:38:00 da2ce7_d has joined
1012 2012-09-06 17:38:06 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1013 2012-09-06 17:38:09 <MC-Eeepc> then you have a bitcoi that will turn to shit if said backbone disappers
1014 2012-09-06 17:38:26 <BlueMatt> nope, thats why the p2p network still exists
1015 2012-09-06 17:38:29 <MC-Eeepc> then you have a group of actors with more influence then anyone else
1016 2012-09-06 17:38:35 <BlueMatt> think of it as simply short-circuiting the p2p network to increase propagation times ie making it easy for miners to get direct connections to each other
1017 2012-09-06 17:39:01 <MC-Eeepc> if huge miners want to directly peer thats thier business
1018 2012-09-06 17:39:03 <BlueMatt> I work under the assumption that the backbone would have public-facing nodes (providing they dont get too much ddos) for p2pool/etc miners
1019 2012-09-06 17:39:09 <MC-Eeepc> whats that got to do with devs
1020 2012-09-06 17:39:36 <BlueMatt> not much, but it would be nice if someone with no/little vested interest ran it (ie a dev)
1021 2012-09-06 17:39:38 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1022 2012-09-06 17:39:46 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: well apparently the pools are too convinced that their competition is going to DDOS them or whatever, and so they're not actually able to cooperate it seems.
1023 2012-09-06 17:39:46 <BlueMatt> (and someone who had a ton of bitcoin experience)
1024 2012-09-06 17:39:59 <gmaxwell> But otherwise it doesn't; it's just another thing that can exist in the ecosystem.
1025 2012-09-06 17:40:15 <MC-Eeepc> ok
1026 2012-09-06 17:40:37 <MC-Eeepc> matt made it sound like devs getting involved in network topology
1027 2012-09-06 17:41:08 <BlueMatt> its just us encouraging more direct connection between large actors
1028 2012-09-06 17:41:17 <BlueMatt> s/us/anyone/
1029 2012-09-06 17:41:24 <MC-Eeepc> it sunds like something they could do already with addnode etc, except for the whle game theory shit
1030 2012-09-06 17:42:03 <BlueMatt> thats why devs make a "backbone" to encourage it
1031 2012-09-06 17:42:14 <BlueMatt> also, a backbone means it is possible for p2pool miners to get in on it
1032 2012-09-06 17:42:24 <BlueMatt> otherwise they would be locked out of such direct peering agreements
1033 2012-09-06 17:42:58 <MC-Eeepc> i just dont like it
1034 2012-09-06 17:43:10 <gmaxwell> Don't like what?
1035 2012-09-06 17:43:13 <MC-Eeepc> pools are not meant to be around forever
1036 2012-09-06 17:43:26 <gmaxwell> They're not 'meant' to be around at all.
1037 2012-09-06 17:43:39 <gmaxwell> But good luck with that!
1038 2012-09-06 17:43:41 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: great, so the backbone would connect p2pool miners more directly then
1039 2012-09-06 17:43:59 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: it would also connect in large merchants who are concerned about being cut off the network
1040 2012-09-06 17:44:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think I missed why you're talking about this?
1041 2012-09-06 17:44:48 <BlueMatt> the propagation times came up again
1042 2012-09-06 17:44:53 <MC-Eeepc> if you can work out a way for this backbone to set itself up automatically based on node quality/bandwidth/whatever then fine
1043 2012-09-06 17:45:01 <MC-Eeepc> if someoone has the keys, fuck that shit
1044 2012-09-06 17:45:08 <BlueMatt> (and, as always, I bitched and moaned that we should do stuff like a backbone to see if we need other further fixes first)
1045 2012-09-06 17:45:45 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: I think bluematt has managed to confuse you. 'has the keys' makes no sense in the context of what bluematt is talking about.
1046 2012-09-06 17:46:05 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: he's talking about some people setting up some well maintained nodes, and prodding major sites to add node them. Thats pretty much it.
1047 2012-09-06 17:46:33 <MC-Eeepc> yeah, how is tht the business of devs?
1048 2012-09-06 17:46:52 <BlueMatt> its not, its the business of "someone"
1049 2012-09-06 17:46:53 <gmaxwell> (And doing so should make the average bitcoin propagation time lower because it will improve connectivity)
1050 2012-09-06 17:46:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: are you talking about jgarzik's backbone?
1051 2012-09-06 17:47:01 Maccer has joined
1052 2012-09-06 17:47:10 <BlueMatt> sipa: or a backbone, but jgarzik is the furthest along on the planning afaik
1053 2012-09-06 17:47:48 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: its the business of whomever wants to work on it; preferably someone who's avoided other conflicts of interest, however.
1054 2012-09-06 17:47:54 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: specifically, its the business of someone with little/no vested interest in a particular pool/merchant/etc and who knows a lot about bitcoin...
1055 2012-09-06 17:47:58 rdponticelli has joined
1056 2012-09-06 17:48:13 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: as it turns out, that description matches many of the devs pretty closely
1057 2012-09-06 17:48:31 <MC-Eeepc> so you would pay no thought to perhaps getting some holepunching in there to improve interconnectedness in general, and whatver other net wide optimisations to keep the prop time down, like the mempool block build thing
1058 2012-09-06 17:48:50 <BlueMatt> whole punching wouldn't help
1059 2012-09-06 17:48:55 <BlueMatt> again, we have plenty of listening nodes now
1060 2012-09-06 17:49:17 * sipa punches BlueMatt wholly
1061 2012-09-06 17:49:27 <BlueMatt> sorry...
1062 2012-09-06 17:49:30 <sipa> :p
1063 2012-09-06 17:50:11 <Joric> most routers don't support hole punching nowadays, fucking iptables - port restricted nat
1064 2012-09-06 17:50:18 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: can you please refrain from instantly resorting to the accusatory tone?  _We're constantly discussing techical performance improvements in here, you must know this if you're reading at all_
1065 2012-09-06 17:50:50 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: Fortunately multiple things can happen at once.
1066 2012-09-06 17:51:04 <BlueMatt> (and if we did whole punching, the level of complaints over anonymity would be /HUGE/)
1067 2012-09-06 17:51:20 <MC-Eeepc> sorry
1068 2012-09-06 17:51:27 <gmaxwell> Well we _do_ do a kind of hole punching, thats what UPNP does.
1069 2012-09-06 17:51:44 <BlueMatt> well, I was thinking udp/tcp hole punching
1070 2012-09-06 17:51:51 <MC-Eeepc> but i dont know if some of you guys realise what you hold in your hands sometimes
1071 2012-09-06 17:52:00 <BlueMatt> in the more traditional sense of udp hole punching (which is also somewhat possible with tcp)
1072 2012-09-06 17:52:07 <MC-Eeepc> just saying, direct peering etc is what got us the present global money system
1073 2012-09-06 17:52:13 <gmaxwell> And yea, I don't think I've seen evidence that we need more listening nodes at the moment. There is a large base of broken/delayed listening nodes.
1074 2012-09-06 17:52:50 <gmaxwell> and I wish we knew why.
1075 2012-09-06 17:53:22 * BlueMatt constantly wishes we could add a nice little "send details about my system back to bitcoin.org" feature in bitcoin-qt/bitcoind...
1076 2012-09-06 17:53:34 <BlueMatt> (obv we cant, before someone yells at me...)
1077 2012-09-06 17:53:40 <MC-Eeepc> bittorrent makes a bloody good job of the hole punching stuff, to the point where no one bothers forwarding ports and it makes no difference
1078 2012-09-06 17:53:59 <MC-Eeepc> it was worse at it than FTP to begin with
1079 2012-09-06 17:54:05 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1080 2012-09-06 17:54:15 <BlueMatt> its hard to be worse than ftp when it comes to port forwarding/hole punching...
1081 2012-09-06 17:54:31 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: You got that press contact under control?
1082 2012-09-06 17:54:42 altamic has joined
1083 2012-09-06 17:54:46 <MC-Eeepc> the first torrent client i treid demanded an open port for every single torrent
1084 2012-09-06 17:55:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: happily, she's already reported everthing I told her (I didn't tell her anything beyond "something interesting will happen")
1085 2012-09-06 17:56:21 <MC-Eeepc> i jsut kind of wonder if bitcoin could be globally managing its connetions in a more intelligent way
1086 2012-09-06 17:56:29 <MC-Eeepc> than pretty much random
1087 2012-09-06 17:56:34 agricocb has joined
1088 2012-09-06 17:56:36 <gavinandresen> no, impossible, it is perfect as it is right now.
1089 2012-09-06 17:57:06 <Joric> tested udp punchthrough in my game - 2/3 players weren't be able to connect with each other, mostly iphone users then ppl behind iptables
1090 2012-09-06 17:57:18 <gavinandresen> I keep saying I want to see a bitcoin fork that uses a completely different network protocol to pop up (and interconnect)
1091 2012-09-06 17:57:41 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: you puzzle me. :P You freak out because BlueMatt mentions some people running stable nodes; and then you go on to propose that there should be some kind of global master control of the overall topology. :P
1092 2012-09-06 17:57:56 <MC-Eeepc> nothing of the sort
1093 2012-09-06 17:58:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I have a node connected over RS232 at home now, using basically the raw transactions API.
1094 2012-09-06 17:58:41 <MC-Eeepc> some sort of algorithm in each client which selects good nodes out of the thousands it may try, and keeps them around
1095 2012-09-06 17:58:42 <gmaxwell> I guess I should publish the shim programs for that.
1096 2012-09-06 17:58:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: cool.  Now you just need to run RS232 wires to all the major exchanges and miners....
1097 2012-09-06 17:59:02 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: "I know! we could use bluetooth!"
1098 2012-09-06 17:59:10 * sipa proposes RFC 1149 links
1099 2012-09-06 17:59:17 <MC-Eeepc> perhaps when added up, this effect would automatically create a backbone out of whats already out there
1100 2012-09-06 17:59:22 <gavinandresen> 1149 is pigeons?  Good idea!
1101 2012-09-06 17:59:31 <MC-Eeepc> centralisation in a comletely decentralisd and uncontrollable way
1102 2012-09-06 17:59:36 <MC-Eeepc> and people are still free to addnode and shit
1103 2012-09-06 17:59:55 <sipa> so, how is that different from what we have?
1104 2012-09-06 18:00:19 <MC-Eeepc> i dont know, nodes are random right now right?
1105 2012-09-06 18:00:27 <sipa> not really random
1106 2012-09-06 18:00:41 <sipa> i mean: yes, really random, but far from uniformly random
1107 2012-09-06 18:01:03 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: ok...that may beat it
1108 2012-09-06 18:01:16 <gmaxwell> Weird looking node in the seeds list: 46.166.138.142:9901     100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 88.69%  39.86%  3883    60002 "/Satoshi:0.6.3/"
1109 2012-09-06 18:01:22 <MC-Eeepc> BlueMatt ??
1110 2012-09-06 18:01:42 <gmaxwell> 188.165.73.246:9901     100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 88.62%  39.77%  3888    60002 "/Satoshi:0.6.3/"
1111 2012-09-06 18:02:10 <BlueMatt> MC-Eeepc: the torrent/ftp comparison
1112 2012-09-06 18:02:11 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: in other words: if you use an algorithm that deterministically maximizes optimal connectivity, i think your network becomes a lot more prone to sybil/dos attacks
1113 2012-09-06 18:02:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: hey, I bet those are PPCOIN nodes. I sure hope your seeder filters by height now.
1114 2012-09-06 18:02:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how is that weird?
1115 2012-09-06 18:02:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: no
1116 2012-09-06 18:02:33 <sipa> 0.6.3 is 60001 no, not 60002?
1117 2012-09-06 18:02:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: erk.  well I guess the port number keeps them harmless for us.
1118 2012-09-06 18:03:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: height 3883 and proto 60002 + Satoshi:0.6.3
1119 2012-09-06 18:03:16 * sipa food
1120 2012-09-06 18:03:33 <MC-Eeepc> sipa probably, but the same would be true for a backbone created of the will of men, and not algorithmicly right?
1121 2012-09-06 18:03:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok...yea, a bit odd
1122 2012-09-06 18:04:10 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: You should probably forget bluematt mentioned that. It's not something that would exist instead of the normal p2p network.
1123 2012-09-06 18:04:37 <gmaxwell> and yes, any such thing would be astonishingly vulnerable to some kinds of attacks... but only in isolation.
1124 2012-09-06 18:04:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: maybe just a weird commit that we never released as a release?
1125 2012-09-06 18:05:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: there are 83 such nodes.
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1127 2012-09-06 18:05:36 <MC-Eeepc> what about in the future when the backbone is the only way to actually get stuff done, and you can try the general network but good luck mining/running a business on that
1128 2012-09-06 18:05:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok...yea, thats pretty strange...
1129 2012-09-06 18:06:01 <MC-Eeepc> would that not replace the p2p net de facto, for those that actually want to do anything
1130 2012-09-06 18:06:03 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: what about in the future when diabolical aliens insert their mind control probes into your head????? WHAT THEN?
1131 2012-09-06 18:06:26 <MC-Eeepc> thats jsut sily :<
1132 2012-09-06 18:06:39 <ThomasV> that's not future. maybe past
1133 2012-09-06 18:06:56 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's ppcoin.
1134 2012-09-06 18:07:26 <BlueMatt> its...wtf?
1135 2012-09-06 18:07:35 <gmaxwell> genuses didn't change their magic.  Or their version string.
1136 2012-09-06 18:07:43 <BlueMatt> ahh...wow
1137 2012-09-06 18:08:06 Marf has joined
1138 2012-09-06 18:08:09 <MC-Eeepc> sipa was this meant to be faster with dbcache 150 or something?
1139 2012-09-06 18:08:19 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: that was the guess.
1140 2012-09-06 18:09:58 <gmaxwell> I wonder if nodes should stop listening or at least stop announcing if their best block is more than N days old.
1141 2012-09-06 18:11:41 <jgarzik> stop announcing
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1144 2012-09-06 18:12:45 <MC-Eeepc> is there any way to watch the logfile live
1145 2012-09-06 18:12:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: 83 ppcoin nodes?  that's about 10x more than I would've predicted
1146 2012-09-06 18:13:01 <D34TH> tail -f ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
1147 2012-09-06 18:13:15 <MC-Eeepc> on windows
1148 2012-09-06 18:13:33 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I wish we could get that many testnet nodes. :P
1149 2012-09-06 18:13:40 <D34TH> do you have msys?
1150 2012-09-06 18:13:54 <MC-Eeepc> whats that
1151 2012-09-06 18:14:22 da2ce7 has quit (Client Quit)
1152 2012-09-06 18:14:28 <D34TH> MC-Eeepc, http://www.mingw.org/wiki/MSYS
1153 2012-09-06 18:14:35 da2ce7 has joined
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1158 2012-09-06 18:34:15 <sipa> MC-Eeepc: indeed
1159 2012-09-06 18:36:52 <leotreasure_> does bitcoin still connect to other clients via irc?
1160 2012-09-06 18:38:36 <gmaxwell> leotreasure_: Not unless users manually enable it. It never really 'connected to [...] via irc' it just used IRC channel activity to find online nodes which it connected to out of band.
1161 2012-09-06 18:39:21 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1162 2012-09-06 18:39:35 <gmaxwell> leotreasure_: any reason you ask?
1163 2012-09-06 18:39:54 <leotreasure_> i'm giving a talk on Bitcoin next week
1164 2012-09-06 18:40:12 <leotreasure_> wanted to find out a bit more about the technical workings
1165 2012-09-06 18:40:34 <leotreasure_> what is the default method of connecting currently?
1166 2012-09-06 18:40:57 <sipa> it connects to peers it knows
1167 2012-09-06 18:41:01 <BlueMatt> it is, and always has been, to connect to nodes you've previously heard of/connected to
1168 2012-09-06 18:41:04 <jgarzik> leotreasure_: you plumb your local database of known peers
1169 2012-09-06 18:41:13 <jgarzik> leotreasure_: and exchange peers with other connected peers
1170 2012-09-06 18:41:39 <sipa> and it gets them from DNS seeding, from -addnode if specified, from peer exchange, and ultimately (if all else fails) from a hardcoded list
1171 2012-09-06 18:42:08 <leotreasure_> i think i read somewhere that addnode was omitted in the upcoming 0.7.0 version or was that just for ipv6?
1172 2012-09-06 18:42:59 TD has joined
1173 2012-09-06 18:43:18 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@host-72-2-137-170.csinet.net|PiZZaMaN2K
1174 2012-09-06 18:43:19 <gmaxwell> I have no idea what you were reading.
1175 2012-09-06 18:43:35 <BlueMatt> hes thinking of the addnode control via rpc
1176 2012-09-06 18:44:18 <BlueMatt> addnode has been in for a while, controlling the list of addnode entries via rpc...hasnt
1177 2012-09-06 18:44:41 <leotreasure_> ok nm probably not too important for general overview talk
1178 2012-09-06 18:45:17 <leotreasure_> what's the network protocol that bitcoin communicates over please?
1179 2012-09-06 18:45:36 <leotreasure_> or is it bitcoin per se?
1180 2012-09-06 18:45:50 <BlueMatt> ip/tcp/bitcoin
1181 2012-09-06 18:46:01 <jgarzik> leotreasure_: -addnode existed pre-0.7, and continues to work in 0.7+
1182 2012-09-06 18:46:15 <jgarzik> leotreasure_: an addnode RPC has been proposed, but not merged.  it is likely to be merged..
1183 2012-09-06 18:46:35 <leotreasure_> thanks guys
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1186 2012-09-06 18:51:43 <gmaxwell> OH!!!!
1187 2012-09-06 18:51:54 <gmaxwell> thats why he was talking about.
1188 2012-09-06 18:52:13 <BlueMatt> bit of lag time there...
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1190 2012-09-06 18:58:13 <gmaxwell> bitcoind listunspent 1 9999999 | grep 'scriptPubKey' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n    produces some fun output.
1191 2012-09-06 18:58:31 <gmaxwell> apparently I have some txouts with hundreds uses.
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1207 2012-09-06 19:55:54 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD in case you are interested, I went ahead and pulled out the block-as-v<tx hash> stuff and pull requested the rest of the bloom stuff (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1795)
1208 2012-09-06 19:55:55 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1209 2012-09-06 20:06:23 <gavinandresen> 0.7.0rc2 binaries up on sourceforge...
1210 2012-09-06 20:14:23 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: missing linux?
1211 2012-09-06 20:15:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks, uploading now....
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1218 2012-09-06 20:29:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ping
1219 2012-09-06 20:30:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: pong
1220 2012-09-06 20:30:50 <Luke-Jr> 3595b18 Don't force IRC off if not listening, do force it off if IPv4 is off. <-- first part is a bug fix or not?
1221 2012-09-06 20:31:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's a bugfix but not generally an important one. (Its somewhat more important for testnet3, as irc is the only bootstrapping method)
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1223 2012-09-06 20:33:09 <Evilmax> Rumors say the price of bitcoins will rise beyond $ 12: then buy, buy!
1224 2012-09-06 20:33:14 <Evilmax> :)
1225 2012-09-06 20:34:18 <gavinandresen> Evilmax: 11 is my favorite number.
1226 2012-09-06 20:34:25 maqr has joined
1227 2012-09-06 20:34:53 <Evilmax> 11.3
1228 2012-09-06 20:34:55 <Evilmax> better
1229 2012-09-06 20:35:00 <Luke-Jr> +        "  -timeout=<n>           " + _("Specify connection timeout in milliseconds (default: 5000))") + "\n" +
1230 2012-09-06 20:35:03 <gavinandresen> 11.11 would be better.
1231 2012-09-06 20:35:10 <Evilmax> 11.3 eur!
1232 2012-09-06 20:35:12 <Luke-Jr> ^ anyone care to fix the double parenthesis? doesn't seem worth a pullreq
1233 2012-09-06 20:35:12 <Evilmax> i mean
1234 2012-09-06 20:35:32 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: sure
1235 2012-09-06 20:36:59 theorbtwo has joined
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1237 2012-09-06 20:42:36 graingert has joined
1238 2012-09-06 20:43:18 <kjj_> what's wrong with the double parenthesis?  they are nested
1239 2012-09-06 20:44:06 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1240 2012-09-06 20:45:02 <BlueMatt> theres a double in the string
1241 2012-09-06 20:45:23 <BlueMatt> (open 1, close 3; if you count those not in the string)
1242 2012-09-06 20:45:24 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs")
1243 2012-09-06 20:45:28 <BlueMatt> s/1/2/
1244 2012-09-06 20:46:03 <kjj_> ahh, I see it now.  I was moving the initial (" into "( as I read it
1245 2012-09-06 20:46:24 <BlueMatt> (as did I)
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1249 2012-09-06 20:49:24 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: was there a reason the build version was bumped for rc2?
1250 2012-09-06 20:50:19 <gavinandresen> because that's the way we do it?  new code == new build version ....
1251 2012-09-06 20:50:27 <Luke-Jr> hasn't been in the past, but ok
1252 2012-09-06 20:50:40 <Luke-Jr> (before, it only seemed to happen when there was a security fix in between)
1253 2012-09-06 20:51:19 <gavinandresen> before I probably just forgot to bump
1254 2012-09-06 20:51:26 BitcoinBaltar has joined
1255 2012-09-06 20:52:00 <gavinandresen> there will be no bump going from rc2 to final (assuming rc2 IS final), just a new git tag and new binaries.
1256 2012-09-06 20:52:21 graingert has joined
1257 2012-09-06 20:52:35 <Luke-Jr> i c
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1269 2012-09-06 21:08:22 <gavinandresen> wow, that was quick:  http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/06/politics/romney-tax-threat/index.html
1270 2012-09-06 21:09:09 <Luke-Jr> is there any actual evidence of that version being true yet? <.<
1271 2012-09-06 21:09:18 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1272 2012-09-06 21:09:27 <gavinandresen> I don't think so, smells like a hoax to me
1273 2012-09-06 21:10:23 <gmaxwell> Yea, it doesn't make any sense in any case.
1274 2012-09-06 21:11:06 <snapattack> hey folks - I want to use the blockchain (the latest solved hash) as a source of entropy in my web application. Is `bitcoind getmemorypool` the only way to obtain the hash without relying on thirdparty services like BBE and blockchina.info?
1275 2012-09-06 21:11:40 ErnestoJuarell has joined
1276 2012-09-06 21:11:47 <gmaxwell> snapattack: you want getblockhash most likely.
1277 2012-09-06 21:12:10 <gavinandresen> snapattack: you want bitcoind getblockhash `bitcoind getblockcount` I think.  Or is it getblocknumber....
1278 2012-09-06 21:12:20 <gmaxwell> snapattack: though, using the lastest block hash as a sorce of 'entropy' is probably a bad idea.
1279 2012-09-06 21:13:35 <gmaxwell> (because the party producing the block has as much control of the value as they want to buy)
1280 2012-09-06 21:14:56 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1281 2012-09-06 21:15:12 <snapattack> yeah but nobody ever knows what the hash is until it is registered in the blockchain
1282 2012-09-06 21:15:17 <snapattack> let me explain my situtation
1283 2012-09-06 21:15:51 <Luke-Jr> snapattack: sure we do.
1284 2012-09-06 21:16:27 <snapattack> If you knew, you'd win every block
1285 2012-09-06 21:16:34 <Luke-Jr> cool, how do I play?
1286 2012-09-06 21:16:51 <Luke-Jr> win/win sounds good to me
1287 2012-09-06 21:17:10 TD has joined
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1289 2012-09-06 21:17:53 <snapattack> again, let me explain: An online lottery is created and users can enrol. When a user enrols they are given an index. When the lottery closes an index must be chosen. This index is the winner of the lottery. A system where the server decides the index is untrustworthy because they could simply change the outcome. However, If a promised protocol is followed to obtain the solved hash exactly 2 hours from the lottery close and
1290 2012-09-06 21:18:12 <snapattack> entropy source, users are free to verify that it was a legit lottery and that the server did not rig it
1291 2012-09-06 21:18:25 <gmaxwell> thats a cruddy protocol, here is one which is simpler and more secure.
1292 2012-09-06 21:18:33 <Luke-Jr> aww, I don't know that far in advance :<
1293 2012-09-06 21:18:55 <jrmithdobbs> ya, the last hashed block isn't entropy at all
1294 2012-09-06 21:19:11 <jrmithdobbs> it's always going to be <target so easy to precompute
1295 2012-09-06 21:19:39 <gmaxwell> The server picks a large random value (e.g. 128 bits), R. The server then tells all the users H(R) where H is some secure cryptographic hash function.  The user(s) provides their own random value R2.  Later the server announces R, everyone computes H(R||R2)=X  and X tells you who the winner is.
1296 2012-09-06 21:20:28 <jrmithdobbs> R2[0...n-1] but ya
1297 2012-09-06 21:20:50 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well yes, if there are multiple users.
1298 2012-09-06 21:21:14 att has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1299 2012-09-06 21:21:15 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya, i'm just in a pissy/nitpicky mood ;p
1300 2012-09-06 21:21:34 <snapattack> I don't want users to have to submit random values, thats a pain in the ass for enrolment, why is the blockchain method cruddy?
1301 2012-09-06 21:22:14 <Joric> it's not very user friendly ) http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4180/30768852.png
1302 2012-09-06 21:22:40 <gmaxwell> With what you proposed luke or other big pool operator could win big.  They'd entroll a bunch of sockpuppets in your lottery, such that they were half the players.  Then they could impose an additional restriction on blocks that they solve so that the hash results in them being the winner.
1303 2012-09-06 21:23:01 <gmaxwell> Joric: thats your own weird design failure making it unfriendly.
1304 2012-09-06 21:23:41 shamoon has joined
1305 2012-09-06 21:23:57 <shamoon> i'm running getrawtransaction
1306 2012-09-06 21:24:02 <shamoon> and i get vout
1307 2012-09-06 21:24:02 <jrmithdobbs> snapattack: it's cruddy because your lottery can be bought out effectively cheaply
1308 2012-09-06 21:24:06 <shamoon> with scriptpubkey
1309 2012-09-06 21:24:13 <shamoon> and it has addresses
1310 2012-09-06 21:24:17 <gmaxwell> Joric: bitjack21's (the site I originally came up with that for) was perfectly friendly. It uses JS rand to provide the user nonce, unless the user wants to type in their own. It's basically invisible unless the user wants to go looking.
1311 2012-09-06 21:24:18 <shamoon> but there only seems to be one address ever
1312 2012-09-06 21:24:21 <freewil> shamoon, ... chill on the enter
1313 2012-09-06 21:24:21 <shamoon> is there a reason it's an array?
1314 2012-09-06 21:24:23 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1315 2012-09-06 21:24:40 <shamoon> sorry freewil
1316 2012-09-06 21:24:46 <freewil> ;)
1317 2012-09-06 21:24:55 <Luke-Jr> shamoon: you just don't look at enough transactions
1318 2012-09-06 21:25:03 AEonCIpher has joined
1319 2012-09-06 21:25:05 <shamoon> you're probably right
1320 2012-09-06 21:25:16 <Luke-Jr> shamoon: multisig should list all addresses used
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1323 2012-09-06 21:25:38 <jrmithdobbs> snapattack: if you wanted to add some kind of "good faith" indicator that the number was actually chosen after a given height in the blockchain (I phrased that carefully, because it's not a proof) you could modify gmaxwell's to be hmac() using the block hash as the key (though, you probably want to pad the first half with a random number still)
1324 2012-09-06 21:26:16 <shamoon> hmmm
1325 2012-09-06 21:26:39 <shamoon> so i'm trying to trace a transaction
1326 2012-09-06 21:26:44 <shamoon> well.. a series of transactions
1327 2012-09-06 21:26:56 <shamoon> so if i see an address as an input to another address
1328 2012-09-06 21:27:02 <shamoon> i can deduct the balance for that address
1329 2012-09-06 21:27:12 <shamoon> but now it's addresses, so which do i deduct from?
1330 2012-09-06 21:27:39 <Luke-Jr> good luck, tracing isn't that simple.
1331 2012-09-06 21:27:43 <gavinandresen> which did you add to when you saw the payment into the multisig?
1332 2012-09-06 21:27:58 <shamoon> not tracing hte source
1333 2012-09-06 21:28:01 <shamoon> just knowing final balances
1334 2012-09-06 21:28:03 <shamoon> of addresses
1335 2012-09-06 21:28:06 <shamoon> i don't care where it went to
1336 2012-09-06 21:28:25 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1337 2012-09-06 21:28:38 <shamoon> is that possible?
1338 2012-09-06 21:29:36 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1339 2012-09-06 21:29:53 <sipa> addresses don't really have balances
1340 2012-09-06 21:30:04 <gmaxwell> shamoon: who knows? "it doesn't really work that way"
1341 2012-09-06 21:30:12 <shamoon> blockchain.info shows current balnace for addresses
1342 2012-09-06 21:30:24 <sipa> you can calculate them sure, but that doesn't really have meaning
1343 2012-09-06 21:30:31 <Luke-Jr> blockchain.info is increasingly annoying in how it confuses users :/
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1345 2012-09-06 21:30:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: blockexplorer did the same confusing stuff.
1346 2012-09-06 21:31:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, I'm thinking messages, non-standard private keys, firstbits, etc
1347 2012-09-06 21:31:17 <shamoon> the question of "how many bitcoins do i have?" should be relatively simple to answer
1348 2012-09-06 21:31:24 <shamoon> if it's on my own computer, it's easy through the client
1349 2012-09-06 21:31:29 <shamoon> but what about a hosted wallet solution
1350 2012-09-06 21:31:37 <Luke-Jr> shamoon: that question has nothing to do with addresses though
1351 2012-09-06 21:31:43 <gmaxwell> shamoon: well what the client does is that it sums up all the inputs that it can currently spend.
1352 2012-09-06 21:31:59 <shamoon> i can't get unspent inputs of addresses i don't own
1353 2012-09-06 21:32:29 <gmaxwell> Not all inputs have addresses.
1354 2012-09-06 21:32:48 <gmaxwell> shamoon: ignoring that... you can, though the bitcoin reference software doesn't have an address->txid index.
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1356 2012-09-06 21:32:56 <Joric> we hit CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/06/politics/romney-tax-threat/index.html
1357 2012-09-06 21:32:59 <Joric> 'The group demands $1 million worth of the online currency Bitcoins.'
1358 2012-09-06 21:33:07 <shamoon> Joric: "we"?
1359 2012-09-06 21:33:20 BitcoinBaltar has joined
1360 2012-09-06 21:33:27 <shamoon> gmaxwell: so here's my thought process... get all transactions in a block, and for all the vout's per transaction, increase the amount to that address
1361 2012-09-06 21:33:35 <Joric> shamoon, not me!!!
1362 2012-09-06 21:33:45 <shamoon> for all the vin's (theoretically), deduct an amount from the address
1363 2012-09-06 21:33:56 <sipa> yes, that's it
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1367 2012-09-06 21:34:05 <shamoon> the issue i'm having is the vin's
1368 2012-09-06 21:34:12 <gmaxwell> shamoon: yes, that works... until someone write a transaction that can be redeemed by multiple parties.
1369 2012-09-06 21:34:12 <shamoon> because i'm not sure which address to deduct from
1370 2012-09-06 21:34:31 <shamoon> how does one write a transaction that can be redeemed by multiple parties?
1371 2012-09-06 21:35:00 <gmaxwell> shamoon: there are an infinite number of ways. (well, I suppose it's finite but very large since txn can't be infinitely long :P )
1372 2012-09-06 21:35:23 <shamoon> isn't the whole point to send a transaction to one (or more) addresses?
1373 2012-09-06 21:35:37 <gavinandresen> no, addresses are a user-interface thing.
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1376 2012-09-06 21:37:20 <gmaxwell> shamoon: bitcoin itself has no concept of addresses. There is value (bitcoins), and transactions which take value, provide the scriptsigs which permit access to it, and then specify scriptpubkeys which will control access to it in the future.
1377 2012-09-06 21:37:41 <gmaxwell> the whole concept of addresses and balances and such is a layer added on top so that people can use bitcoin like money.
1378 2012-09-06 21:37:44 <snapattack> gmaxwell: can you elaborate on the || operation in H(R||R2)=X ?
1379 2012-09-06 21:38:25 <gmaxwell> snapattack: it's just intended to be concatenation. Or any other non-information losing composition.
1380 2012-09-06 21:38:49 <Joric> concatenation makes it a bit easier to verify
1381 2012-09-06 21:39:03 <shamoon> i see
1382 2012-09-06 21:39:24 <snapattack> and X becomes the seed... hmm
1383 2012-09-06 21:40:53 <snapattack> how to guarantee server didn't modify Rn?
1384 2012-09-06 21:41:33 <Joric> i'm not sure about mapping how to make it more obvious than mod x? i have 20 frames and 3 slots here https://ragecoin.appspot.com
1385 2012-09-06 21:42:30 <gmaxwell> Joric: um. ... are you using % to generate uniform random values when the divisor isn't coprime with the input space?
1386 2012-09-06 21:43:45 gfinn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1387 2012-09-06 21:43:49 <Joric> i'm not using anything so far
1388 2012-09-06 21:44:26 <Joric> coprime you say
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1393 2012-09-06 21:49:56 <gmaxwell> Joric: python -c 'import random; from collections import Counter; print Counter([random.randint(0,8)%7 for x in xrange(0,2000000)]).items()'
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1397 2012-09-06 21:56:58 <snapattack> gmaxwell: thx for your help - I think what I'll do is on the client-side produce a random 128bit string and hide it away under a panel that users CAN modify if they wish, hell, they could put "dog" or "beef jerky" in the field if they wanted. Provided there is a single person who is participating in good faith, the lottery is guarenteed to be random. nice.
1398 2012-09-06 21:57:29 drazak_ has joined
1399 2012-09-06 21:59:18 <lianj> ruby -e 'p (0..2000000).group_by{ rand(8)%7 }.map{|k,a| [k,a.size] }.sort_by(&:first)'
1400 2012-09-06 22:00:05 <gmaxwell> lianj: rand(9) to be completely compariable there.
1401 2012-09-06 22:00:48 <gmaxwell> whos the the lua oneliner for that? :P
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1407 2012-09-06 22:04:49 <Joric> thought all those numbers supposed to be extracted out of the same 32-byte hash
1408 2012-09-06 22:08:11 <gmaxwell> Joric: thats fine and all,... the point you're missing is that you turn some number on the range [0,2^n) into some number on the range [0,not 2^n) using % you will get a non-uniform distribution of the resulting values... regardless of which part of whatever hash you take it from.
1409 2012-09-06 22:08:54 <Joric> bummer
1410 2012-09-06 22:09:34 <gmaxwell> The simplest way to avoid that is to grab ceil(log2(output_range)) bits from the hash, and if the number is too big try again. You can convert your hash into an infinite stream source by appending a counter to the end.
1411 2012-09-06 22:10:37 <gmaxwell> (there are other ways to get uniform numbers from non-power-of-two ranges that are more entropy-efficient, but they're harder to code and understand then just retrying until the number is in range)
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1432 2012-09-06 22:46:04 <sipa> ;;bc,block
1433 2012-09-06 22:46:04 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
1434 2012-09-06 22:46:05 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1435 2012-09-06 22:46:05 <gribble> 197593
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1461 2012-09-06 23:42:30 <MC-Eeepc> hm dbcache 150 seemed to make bitcoin lock up a lot
1462 2012-09-06 23:43:27 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: Shutting Down...)
1463 2012-09-06 23:44:06 <gmaxwell> lock up?
1464 2012-09-06 23:44:14 <BlueMatt> hitting swap lots?
1465 2012-09-06 23:44:33 aq83 has joined
1466 2012-09-06 23:45:46 <MC-Eeepc> bitcoin is not responding etc
1467 2012-09-06 23:46:46 <MC-Eeepc> oh i cnt copypaste out o the debug window :(
1468 2012-09-06 23:46:59 <MC-Eeepc> hm this build is based on 7rc2
1469 2012-09-06 23:48:45 <gmaxwell> Feel free to open an issue on that; I'm sure copy and paste bugs are not something sipa added. :P
1470 2012-09-06 23:49:20 <MC-Eeepc> v0.7.0rc2-32-g81cca96-beta
1471 2012-09-06 23:49:34 <MC-Eeepc> yes i can, im just inaccurete mousing
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