1 2012-09-10 00:00:39 <jrmithdobbs> if this builds and tests pass on my wheezy box i'll put in a pull req to at least get it buildable on freebsd
2 2012-09-10 00:06:12 <jrmithdobbs> awesome, didn't break build of bitcoind on wheezy. good sign. waiting for test_bitcoin to build now.
3 2012-09-10 00:08:20 <jrmithdobbs> so restore it
4 2012-09-10 00:10:45 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: fwiw, we don't accept connections during a loadblock it seems. (I know your issue was ipv6 related...)
5 2012-09-10 00:11:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't think we accept connections during a "load block from network" either :/
6 2012-09-10 00:12:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: actually, there was two different issues (one is the v6 issue you mention) ... the funnier one being that was a horrible box to be testing on because it's the same box i've been testing openbsd's rdomain stuff on
7 2012-09-10 00:12:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: with the way that stuff works you can't have a pass all rule for loopbacks, so the port wasn't open (even after -rpcbind=127.0.0.1
8 2012-09-10 00:13:41 <jrmithdobbs> and .... test_bitcoin just passed on that wheezy box
9 2012-09-10 00:13:48 <jrmithdobbs> let me get this pushed to github
10 2012-09-10 00:14:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: accept connections: yes; accept requests: no (cs_main lock)
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13 2012-09-10 00:15:46 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i'm also not really sure the v6 is a bug but more a feature request
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15 2012-09-10 00:16:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: since on dualstack hosts rpcbind only listens on :: by default and not :: *and* 0.0.0.0
16 2012-09-10 00:17:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: except the p2p is all in a single thread that blocks during any command from any nodeâ¦
17 2012-09-10 00:17:33 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: which is pretty irrelevent as long as you're basically stuck on the first node you request from until it stops responding anyways for now
18 2012-09-10 00:17:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's about RPC, not P2P
19 2012-09-10 00:20:23 <Luke-Jr> oh
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22 2012-09-10 00:23:03 <jrmithdobbs> goddamn it github did you fuck up my ssh keys again?
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26 2012-09-10 00:23:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: i hate parallel sig checking... now i can't use my computer during benchmarks :(
27 2012-09-10 00:24:38 <BlueMatt> heh, yea...thats always a pain
28 2012-09-10 00:25:02 <edcba> use a vm !
29 2012-09-10 00:25:08 <BlueMatt> how does that help?
30 2012-09-10 00:25:19 <sipa> BlueMatt: didn't you get brainwashed yet?
31 2012-09-10 00:25:24 root2 has joined
32 2012-09-10 00:25:27 <sipa> VM's *always* help
33 2012-09-10 00:25:27 <BlueMatt> ?
34 2012-09-10 00:25:30 <BlueMatt> ahhh
35 2012-09-10 00:25:31 <edcba> dunno but that's my favourite answer of moment
36 2012-09-10 00:25:40 <edcba> sipa: exactly !
37 2012-09-10 00:25:44 <sipa> virtualization, cloud computing, scalable enterprise solutions, web 2.0, ...
38 2012-09-10 00:25:46 <BlueMatt> I would have gone with "use the cloud"!
39 2012-09-10 00:25:48 <sipa> anything i'm missing?
40 2012-09-10 00:25:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: youre missing a ton...
41 2012-09-10 00:26:11 <sipa> clearly i don't work in marketing
42 2012-09-10 00:26:21 <jrmithdobbs> anyone see anything overtly objectionable here before i open a pull req?
43 2012-09-10 00:26:23 <jrmithdobbs> https://github.com/jrmithdobbs/bitcoin/commit/a461c138e36120dac662e6bf600f9137813be17c
44 2012-09-10 00:26:24 <edcba> let's form a synergy to improve that !
45 2012-09-10 00:26:32 <sipa> edcba: proactively!
46 2012-09-10 00:26:41 <sipa> by thinking outside the box
47 2012-09-10 00:27:02 <edcba> fuck now i remember my chief using the word proactively
48 2012-09-10 00:27:10 <edcba> it's beginning at work !!!
49 2012-09-10 00:27:28 <edcba> it's been a while we used virtualization in fact...
50 2012-09-10 00:27:30 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: why does swapping the bdb and boost libs help?
51 2012-09-10 00:28:12 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: looks sane to me, didn't test
52 2012-09-10 00:28:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: if boost is in /usr/local on openbsd and you have the db46 port/package installed it wont find the right one otherwise no matter how many times you yell at it
53 2012-09-10 00:28:48 <jrmithdobbs> heh
54 2012-09-10 00:29:05 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: so ya, that really isn't an accident, in other words
55 2012-09-10 00:29:42 setkeh has joined
56 2012-09-10 00:29:47 <edcba> i still don't understand why lib order changes anything
57 2012-09-10 00:29:52 <jrmithdobbs> I can confirm it doesn't break anything building on debian, at least, and freebsd builds and all tests pass (that weirdness on the openbsd tests is being hard to track down)
58 2012-09-10 00:29:53 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
59 2012-09-10 00:30:28 <jrmithdobbs> I'll write up a short build doc for both of them (and disclaim the openbsd wallet thing very clearly) as a sep pull
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62 2012-09-10 00:32:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: validationthreads=N ?
63 2012-09-10 00:32:05 <jrmithdobbs> oh, i need to add one more thing to the clean target
64 2012-09-10 00:32:14 <gmaxwell> where did the bot that reports new pull requests go
65 2012-09-10 00:32:18 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1814
66 2012-09-10 00:32:18 <jrmithdobbs> glad i was double checking before submitting the pull ;p
67 2012-09-10 00:33:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: gribble is here, dunno why he stopped tho
68 2012-09-10 00:33:34 <Luke-Jr> changed about when github started emailing me them tho
69 2012-09-10 00:33:35 <edcba> so yes the VM thingy was to limit cpu
70 2012-09-10 00:33:55 <edcba> of course if you have still only 1 core it won't help
71 2012-09-10 00:35:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its pretty delayed
72 2012-09-10 00:35:33 <BlueMatt> (uses github rss, which is some rarely-running batch job)
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76 2012-09-10 00:39:44 <BlueMatt> or...maybe it is dead
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91 2012-09-10 00:53:34 <jrmithdobbs> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1815 ;p
92 2012-09-10 00:55:06 tower has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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94 2012-09-10 00:55:58 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: can you test that building like this (make sure you have deve/boost-all and databases/db48 installed): BOOST_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/local/include BOOST_LIB_PATH=/usr/local/lib BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/local/include/db48 BDB_LIB_PATH=/usr/local/lib/db48 gmake -f makefile.unix -j8 USE_UPNP= bitcoind test_bitcoin
95 2012-09-10 00:56:11 <jrmithdobbs> devel/boost-all*
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98 2012-09-10 01:01:13 <jrmithdobbs> ;;later denisx https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1815
99 2012-09-10 01:01:13 <gribble> Error: The "Later" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "denisx" in it. Try "list Later" to see the commands in the "Later" plugin.
100 2012-09-10 01:01:22 <jrmithdobbs> ;;later tell denisx https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1815
101 2012-09-10 01:01:22 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
102 2012-09-10 01:01:29 <denisx> Iam here!
103 2012-09-10 01:02:07 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: haha, hi, i put the build example in the pull req in a more readable format ;p
104 2012-09-10 01:02:49 <denisx> jrmithdobbs: this is for HEAD?
105 2012-09-10 01:03:16 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: ya i always rebase onto head
106 2012-09-10 01:06:59 <jrmithdobbs> denisx: git remote add jrmithdobbs git://github.com/jrmithdobbs/bitcoin.git; git fetch jrmithdobbs; git checkout -b 0.7-bsd-build-fixes jrmithdobbs/0.7-bsd-build-fixes
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108 2012-09-10 01:10:48 <Luke-Jr> hmm
109 2012-09-10 01:10:51 <Luke-Jr> Deepbit's doing something fishy
110 2012-09-10 01:11:10 <BlueMatt> discouraging non-deepbit blocks?
111 2012-09-10 01:11:14 <Luke-Jr> dunno
112 2012-09-10 01:11:28 <Luke-Jr> they're giving work based on some prevblock other than the recentmost 23
113 2012-09-10 01:11:30 <Luke-Jr> 2*
114 2012-09-10 01:11:44 <BlueMatt> oh, thats not fishy, thats just stupid
115 2012-09-10 01:11:46 <Luke-Jr> 000000019737a8d3d33152c35c00a6a261f7
116 2012-09-10 01:11:57 <Luke-Jr> I don't know what that block is
117 2012-09-10 01:11:58 one_zero has joined
118 2012-09-10 01:13:33 <Luke-Jr> looks like that happened twice in the last 2 hours with different hashes
119 2012-09-10 01:15:15 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: sounds like a bug/service problem not malicious?
120 2012-09-10 01:15:25 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: hard to tell intention
121 2012-09-10 01:15:30 <denisx> Luke-Jr: now you know why he needs 10% ;)
122 2012-09-10 01:15:40 <Luke-Jr> denisx: I do?
123 2012-09-10 01:15:58 <denisx> Luke-Jr: because he must have alot of invalids this way
124 2012-09-10 01:15:58 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: what can he do with that maliciously? I'm not seeing it (other than screwing his own miners)
125 2012-09-10 01:16:15 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: double spending attempts?
126 2012-09-10 01:16:36 <Luke-Jr> or at least orphaning the network block
127 2012-09-10 01:16:40 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: that alone isn't enough to indicate that, pretty big leap
128 2012-09-10 01:16:56 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: it's one possibility.
129 2012-09-10 01:17:04 <sipa> do not ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence?
130 2012-09-10 01:17:09 <jrmithdobbs> it is weird though, really wish he hadn't decided to opt out of talking to anything about anything
131 2012-09-10 01:17:17 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: especially in this context, heh
132 2012-09-10 01:17:22 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: he talks here pretty often
133 2012-09-10 01:17:29 <Luke-Jr> well, not as often as most of usâ¦
134 2012-09-10 01:17:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I didn't ascribe malice. Just said it was fishy :p
135 2012-09-10 01:17:41 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: i haven't seen him in quite a while and he's not always joined like he used to be
136 2012-09-10 01:17:51 <Luke-Jr> which it is so long as malice is a significant possibility
137 2012-09-10 01:18:11 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: oh, his client is connected, he's just not in here
138 2012-09-10 01:18:27 <denisx> what could be malice until he has 51%?
139 2012-09-10 01:20:14 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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145 2012-09-10 01:27:02 <jrmithdobbs> freakazoid: joepie91 not 92
146 2012-09-10 01:27:10 <freakazoid> WHAT!!!
147 2012-09-10 01:27:11 <jrmithdobbs> jfyi
148 2012-09-10 01:27:24 <freakazoid> no way
149 2012-09-10 01:27:30 root2 has joined
150 2012-09-10 01:27:31 <freakazoid> hang on I have to go find his pastebin again
151 2012-09-10 01:27:33 <jrmithdobbs> goddamn it, i shouldj ust /part #bitcoin so i stop doing that
152 2012-09-10 01:28:24 <freakazoid> oh you're right. http://pastebin.com/NW0LfRCq
153 2012-09-10 01:28:39 <freakazoid> so his evidence was even thinner than I thought
154 2012-09-10 01:28:42 <sipa> ?
155 2012-09-10 01:28:49 coblee has joined
156 2012-09-10 01:31:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: did your awesome miner santity checking catch that?
157 2012-09-10 01:31:28 devrandom has joined
158 2012-09-10 01:31:33 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: have both #bitcoin and -dev in the same irssi window and like to respond to mesages in one in the other on accident ;p
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167 2012-09-10 01:40:25 <jrmithdobbs> freakazoid: joe
168 2012-09-10 01:40:46 <jrmithdobbs> fuck
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171 2012-09-10 01:53:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: have we figured out what deepbit is doing now and have they stopped?
172 2012-09-10 01:53:07 <MC-Eeepc> that pastebin is fuckin rediculous
173 2012-09-10 01:53:16 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: it's also totally offtopic.
174 2012-09-10 01:53:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and can we get any estimate of how long the fork is?
175 2012-09-10 01:53:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and if it hits 5 blocks should I call gavin and have him send out an alert?
176 2012-09-10 01:53:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it only lasted a few seconds
177 2012-09-10 01:54:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and yes, BFGMiner caught it
178 2012-09-10 01:54:13 <gmaxwell> okay, well thats sounds like it was just momentary brokenness.
179 2012-09-10 01:54:20 <gmaxwell> And BFG miner is awesome.
180 2012-09-10 01:54:32 <Luke-Jr> by "a few", I mean enough for me to type it up on IRC :P
181 2012-09-10 01:54:43 <Luke-Jr> it's the 3rd time today tho
182 2012-09-10 01:54:48 <Luke-Jr> and I never noticed it before today
183 2012-09-10 01:54:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i moved #bitconi to a different window so i stop that, my bad
184 2012-09-10 01:55:09 <jrmithdobbs> totally my fault
185 2012-09-10 01:55:10 Guest15547 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
186 2012-09-10 01:55:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and you can't find evidence of that prev anywhere?
187 2012-09-10 01:56:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I couldn't, no. I didn't check all my nodes though
188 2012-09-10 01:56:13 <gmaxwell> did you check blockchain.info? they store orphans
189 2012-09-10 01:56:16 <Luke-Jr> yes
190 2012-09-10 01:56:43 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, the first one was 000000015b91f96deb67e322e4471c776709
191 2012-09-10 01:56:48 <Luke-Jr> and 2nd was 0000000184a78ce57d0a2adbe7222caca22e
192 2012-09-10 01:57:40 SomeoneWeird_ has joined
193 2012-09-10 01:57:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: whats the whole hash?
194 2012-09-10 01:57:50 <Luke-Jr> I don't know :<
195 2012-09-10 01:58:01 <Luke-Jr> I suppose that's a bug in BFGMiner XD
196 2012-09-10 01:58:05 <jrmithdobbs> meh, i'm done looking at gdb to try and figure out why these tests are failing for now, i'll dig into the openbsd issue further later ;p
197 2012-09-10 01:58:27 <Luke-Jr> hmm
198 2012-09-10 01:58:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actually, I think this would only be caught if BFGMiner had seen the block somewhere beforeâ¦
199 2012-09-10 01:59:08 * Luke-Jr ponders what circumstances would lead to that
200 2012-09-10 02:00:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it mining on a fork.
201 2012-09-10 02:00:14 <gmaxwell> then switching off, then switching back
202 2012-09-10 02:00:18 <Luke-Jr> hmm
203 2012-09-10 02:00:20 <gmaxwell> perhaps due to loadbalancing?
204 2012-09-10 02:00:24 <Luke-Jr> ah, maybe
205 2012-09-10 02:00:42 <gmaxwell> e.g. bitcoind nodes on seperate forks, and a loadbalancer that doesn't know or care.
206 2012-09-10 02:00:44 <Luke-Jr> that could explain why it's only Deepbit
207 2012-09-10 02:00:55 <Luke-Jr> I doubt most pools run loadbalancing
208 2012-09-10 02:01:11 <gmaxwell> it's inefficient too...
209 2012-09-10 02:01:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ya i'm pretty sure it's something like that because i know that's how tycho runs it
210 2012-09-10 02:01:45 freakazoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
211 2012-09-10 02:02:20 <Luke-Jr> I guess I need to fix that someday too
212 2012-09-10 02:02:29 <Luke-Jr> BFGMiner doesn't like working with pools on different chains
213 2012-09-10 02:02:58 <gmaxwell> well, thats a forking attack sort of by definition. It just may be one that is happening innocently.
214 2012-09-10 02:03:42 <gmaxwell> it's still bad for users of bitcoin, because it means that what they consider the best block may be overwritten .. all from the effort of the one pool they're connected to.
215 2012-09-10 02:04:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I was thinking bitcoin+namecoin, but I guess it's probably safe to assume any future legitimate chain will be merge-mined
216 2012-09-10 02:05:24 <gmaxwell> yea, thats an odd enough case that you might as well have a switch to allow it... if you even do that.
217 2012-09-10 02:05:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you'd think he'd have it sorted out by now how to keep them from diverging but then deepbit
218 2012-09-10 02:06:18 <phantomcircuit> http://metaexch.com:8000/login
219 2012-09-10 02:06:27 <phantomcircuit> that now does everything but clear trades
220 2012-09-10 02:06:34 <phantomcircuit> uber fast
221 2012-09-10 02:06:35 <phantomcircuit> lawl
222 2012-09-10 02:07:03 <MC-Eeepc> >deepbit
223 2012-09-10 02:08:10 <copumpkin> phantomcircuit: kinda slow to log in and register
224 2012-09-10 02:08:25 <copumpkin> SWEET
225 2012-09-10 02:08:27 <copumpkin> I HAVE $1000
226 2012-09-10 02:08:38 <copumpkin> whoa, I can keep doing this
227 2012-09-10 02:08:40 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, it's the single threaded debug server
228 2012-09-10 02:08:49 <copumpkin> man, I'm gonna be riiiich
229 2012-09-10 02:08:52 <phantomcircuit> the slowest part is logging it
230 2012-09-10 02:08:53 <phantomcircuit> in*
231 2012-09-10 02:09:37 <MC-Eeepc> shit i have 1000btc
232 2012-09-10 02:09:43 <MC-Eeepc> withdraw withdraw
233 2012-09-10 02:10:46 <Luke-Jr> â¦
234 2012-09-10 02:10:55 <phantomcircuit> and no withdrawals
235 2012-09-10 02:11:16 <copumpkin> :(
236 2012-09-10 02:11:17 firelegend has left ()
237 2012-09-10 02:11:56 Evilmax has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
238 2012-09-10 02:12:00 <MC-Eeepc> i dont even know what im doing
239 2012-09-10 02:12:46 <copumpkin> look at them fancy order types
240 2012-09-10 02:12:58 <copumpkin> and massive UUID account IDs
241 2012-09-10 02:13:54 Evilmax has joined
242 2012-09-10 02:14:38 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, accounts can be labelled
243 2012-09-10 02:14:45 <copumpkin> phantomcircuit: I b0rked it
244 2012-09-10 02:14:47 <phantomcircuit> it's the only polish i have put on this
245 2012-09-10 02:15:27 <copumpkin> now I can see part of your database schema, though
246 2012-09-10 02:15:28 <copumpkin> whee
247 2012-09-10 02:15:39 <copumpkin> wow, this is a very detailed stack trace
248 2012-09-10 02:16:10 <phantomcircuit> it's probably got like
249 2012-09-10 02:16:13 <phantomcircuit> all the codez
250 2012-09-10 02:16:18 <copumpkin> omgz
251 2012-09-10 02:16:20 <copumpkin> hax
252 2012-09-10 02:16:31 <doublec> good idea then when people get a stack trace they can fix it
253 2012-09-10 02:16:32 * copumpkin l33thax
254 2012-09-10 02:16:33 <phantomcircuit> here let me change that
255 2012-09-10 02:16:39 <phantomcircuit> doublec, hehe
256 2012-09-10 02:16:47 <copumpkin> phantomcircuit: imma fix it 4 u
257 2012-09-10 02:16:51 * copumpkin logs in
258 2012-09-10 02:17:30 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: help me figure out dis unit test wonkiness
259 2012-09-10 02:17:55 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, mayybee
260 2012-09-10 02:18:08 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: see pastebin link at bottom of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1815
261 2012-09-10 02:19:10 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, i'll give you a clue
262 2012-09-10 02:19:25 <phantomcircuit> the root password starts with zg9FU
263 2012-09-10 02:19:42 <copumpkin> you mean it _did_
264 2012-09-10 02:19:44 <copumpkin> it doesn't anymore
265 2012-09-10 02:19:48 <phantomcircuit> oh knowz
266 2012-09-10 02:19:53 * copumpkin runs off with the seeekrirz
267 2012-09-10 02:20:29 * sipa wonders where to find the libbitcoin source
268 2012-09-10 02:20:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, gitorious iirc
269 2012-09-10 02:21:06 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: genjix's or that guy that forked and wont maintain and switched everything to gpl3 like an asshole?
270 2012-09-10 02:21:17 SomeoneWeird_ is now known as SomeoneWeird
271 2012-09-10 02:21:46 <jrmithdobbs> (genjix's is agplv3 but it's mostly his code so not an asshole for it)
272 2012-09-10 02:21:47 SomeoneWeird is now known as Guest87177
273 2012-09-10 02:21:48 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: libcoin != libbitcoin
274 2012-09-10 02:21:59 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: genjix's; the other is libcoin, and he offered to switch the license to MIT
275 2012-09-10 02:22:02 <jrmithdobbs> yes i'm trying to remember which is which, hence, question
276 2012-09-10 02:22:34 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: it's on gitorious
277 2012-09-10 02:22:56 <sipa> yeah, found it
278 2012-09-10 02:23:03 <sipa> libbitcoin.org seems down, though
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287 2012-09-10 02:41:46 <MC-Eeepc> We had a kernel panic within the MD layer of the linux kernel. Service will be restored within the next 7 days.
288 2012-09-10 02:41:46 <MC-Eeepc> In the meantime, you could assume the price to be either $0.01 or $100 so we can see some interesting rallies and have fun until you can look at boring numbers again :)
289 2012-09-10 02:41:49 <MC-Eeepc> oh shit what
290 2012-09-10 02:42:31 <xisalty> what
291 2012-09-10 02:42:46 <MC-Eeepc> bitcoin charts
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303 2012-09-10 03:03:43 <JFK911> !ticker
304 2012-09-10 03:03:44 <gribble> Best bid: 11.07, Best ask: 11.10878, Bid-ask spread: 0.03878, Last trade: 11.10878, 24 hour volume: 13397, 24 hour low: 10.92452, 24 hour high: 11.14288
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322 2012-09-10 04:03:05 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, http://metaexch.com/
323 2012-09-10 04:03:39 <copumpkin> phantomcircuit: http://snapplr.com/4yec
324 2012-09-10 04:03:44 <copumpkin> when I try to create an order
325 2012-09-10 04:03:50 <copumpkin> not even trying to break it!
326 2012-09-10 04:04:39 <phantomcircuit> huh
327 2012-09-10 04:04:40 <phantomcircuit> weird
328 2012-09-10 04:06:41 <phantomcircuit> not logging the error either
329 2012-09-10 04:06:55 eoss has joined
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333 2012-09-10 04:07:25 <phantomcircuit> oh lol i know
334 2012-09-10 04:08:25 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, nginx is lying to django tell it that it's using https
335 2012-09-10 04:10:01 <phantomcircuit> thar
336 2012-09-10 04:11:21 e0s_ has joined
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340 2012-09-10 04:12:26 <copumpkin> nope
341 2012-09-10 04:13:06 <phantomcircuit> works for me
342 2012-09-10 04:13:09 <phantomcircuit> clear cookies
343 2012-09-10 04:15:11 <copumpkin> nope
344 2012-09-10 04:15:15 <copumpkin> cleared and it still don't work
345 2012-09-10 04:15:31 <copumpkin> http://snapplr.com/587s
346 2012-09-10 04:16:48 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, trying to create an order?
347 2012-09-10 04:16:54 <copumpkin> yup
348 2012-09-10 04:17:25 <copumpkin> I take my $1000 USD account, try to sell 1000 usd at a rate of 10 btc each (that's how I interpret it, anyway)
349 2012-09-10 04:17:27 <copumpkin> and then I get that
350 2012-09-10 04:18:32 <phantomcircuit> huh weird
351 2012-09-10 04:19:00 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, well first off quantity is always btc
352 2012-09-10 04:19:02 <phantomcircuit> never used
353 2012-09-10 04:19:03 <phantomcircuit> usd
354 2012-09-10 04:19:09 <copumpkin> oh
355 2012-09-10 04:19:18 <copumpkin> well originally it was telling me that I didn't have enough in my account
356 2012-09-10 04:19:26 <copumpkin> and then I adjusted it and it stopped bitching
357 2012-09-10 04:19:30 <copumpkin> and then gave me this error instead
358 2012-09-10 04:19:36 <phantomcircuit> also debugging isn't logging things right
359 2012-09-10 04:19:37 <phantomcircuit> :|
360 2012-09-10 04:21:44 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, and now?
361 2012-09-10 04:22:06 <copumpkin> http://snapplr.com/fqt6
362 2012-09-10 04:22:07 <copumpkin> same inut
363 2012-09-10 04:22:08 <copumpkin> input
364 2012-09-10 04:22:40 BitcoinBaltar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
365 2012-09-10 04:22:40 bitcoinz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
366 2012-09-10 04:23:05 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, http://metaexch.com:8080/
367 2012-09-10 04:23:34 <copumpkin> http://snapplr.com/y599
368 2012-09-10 04:23:38 <phantomcircuit> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'handler500'
369 2012-09-10 04:23:39 <phantomcircuit> wat
370 2012-09-10 04:24:06 <copumpkin> probably you throw an error and it's looking for a 500 page?
371 2012-09-10 04:24:11 <copumpkin> or some designated handler for it
372 2012-09-10 04:24:18 BitcoinBaltar has joined
373 2012-09-10 04:24:27 <copumpkin> one of those "exception while trying to throw an exception" things, maybe
374 2012-09-10 04:24:32 * copumpkin shrugs, doesn't do python :)
375 2012-09-10 04:26:46 <phantomcircuit> it's something weird about django
376 2012-09-10 04:27:12 <phantomcircuit> although weirder im not triggering it
377 2012-09-10 04:27:39 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, try again
378 2012-09-10 04:28:04 <copumpkin> nope, same error
379 2012-09-10 04:28:20 <copumpkin> http://snapplr.com/5y07 is my input, btw
380 2012-09-10 04:29:38 <phantomcircuit> bleh
381 2012-09-10 04:29:46 <phantomcircuit> the meta exception is fixed now
382 2012-09-10 04:29:55 <phantomcircuit> should at least give an intelligible error
383 2012-09-10 04:30:43 <copumpkin> w00t, http://snapplr.com/5bej
384 2012-09-10 04:30:44 <copumpkin> :P
385 2012-09-10 04:31:25 <phantomcircuit> weird
386 2012-09-10 04:31:34 <phantomcircuit> some how you avoided the form validation for the expires field
387 2012-09-10 04:31:48 <phantomcircuit> which i doubt you were even trying to do
388 2012-09-10 04:32:42 e0s__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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391 2012-09-10 04:32:45 <copumpkin> has that been around for a while?
392 2012-09-10 04:32:51 <tcatm> FYI bitcoincharts is online again.
393 2012-09-10 04:32:52 <copumpkin> because I was submitting the form in a new tab
394 2012-09-10 04:33:07 <copumpkin> so if you added additional validation to the form, then I didn't reload it
395 2012-09-10 04:33:43 <phantomcircuit> thar
396 2012-09-10 04:33:47 <phantomcircuit> thar
397 2012-09-10 04:33:55 kreal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
398 2012-09-10 04:34:01 <phantomcircuit> now if you dont specify an expires time it will give you an error
399 2012-09-10 04:34:09 <copumpkin> w00t, http://snapplr.com/0tjw
400 2012-09-10 04:34:12 <copumpkin> nice ;)
401 2012-09-10 04:34:25 <phantomcircuit> i actually had required=False
402 2012-09-10 04:34:41 <phantomcircuit> i was going to specify a default expire time of 90 days but i didn't actually do that
403 2012-09-10 04:34:42 <copumpkin> what's the format for the expires field, especially when I have a good till cancelled?
404 2012-09-10 04:34:48 <copumpkin> if I want no expiry?
405 2012-09-10 04:34:58 <phantomcircuit> you need an expire time
406 2012-09-10 04:35:04 <phantomcircuit> but it coudl be the year 3000
407 2012-09-10 04:35:11 <copumpkin> is it a timestamp?
408 2012-09-10 04:35:15 <copumpkin> or some formatted date?
409 2012-09-10 04:35:20 <phantomcircuit> https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/ref/forms/fields/#datetimefield
410 2012-09-10 04:35:25 <phantomcircuit> all the formats will work
411 2012-09-10 04:36:04 <copumpkin> the problem with formats is that they vary by country, so you should tell people you expect the US order :P
412 2012-09-10 04:36:13 <copumpkin> (for the slashy ones)
413 2012-09-10 04:36:24 <phantomcircuit> well this is obviously not polished
414 2012-09-10 04:36:35 <copumpkin> w00t, my order is on the book!
415 2012-09-10 04:36:36 <phantomcircuit> will add some loverly js calendar thingie
416 2012-09-10 04:36:38 <copumpkin> quick quick
417 2012-09-10 04:36:40 <copumpkin> buy buy buy
418 2012-09-10 04:36:56 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, lol there isn't a display of the orderbook
419 2012-09-10 04:37:05 <phantomcircuit> what rate did you specify
420 2012-09-10 04:38:22 <phantomcircuit> copumpkin, executed
421 2012-09-10 04:42:51 <copumpkin> w00t
422 2012-09-10 04:43:57 <phantomcircuit> lol
423 2012-09-10 04:44:02 <phantomcircuit> look at the account history
424 2012-09-10 04:44:16 <phantomcircuit> the ledger entry balances are all wrong
425 2012-09-10 04:44:20 <phantomcircuit> woops
426 2012-09-10 04:45:40 <phantomcircuit> OH
427 2012-09-10 04:45:44 <phantomcircuit> they're not ordered right
428 2012-09-10 04:45:45 <phantomcircuit> derp
429 2012-09-10 04:48:10 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
430 2012-09-10 04:49:42 <phantomcircuit> default '2012-08-29 17:48:05.180842-04'::timestamp with time zone
431 2012-09-10 04:49:45 <phantomcircuit> lol
432 2012-09-10 04:49:48 <phantomcircuit> that explains that
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443 2012-09-10 05:53:14 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/pybond
444 2012-09-10 05:53:25 <Luke-Jr> wow, that was fast :D
445 2012-09-10 05:53:31 <jgarzik> just a skeleton right now with zero bond-market-related stuff (but a working skeleton!)
446 2012-09-10 05:56:43 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
447 2012-09-10 05:58:14 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: That's pretty awesome.
448 2012-09-10 06:02:00 <amiller> i see, it's a skeleton in that it doesn't have anything bond specific yet, but it's a client with protobuf rpc and some boilerplate, similar to how pynode works
449 2012-09-10 06:02:09 Varan has joined
450 2012-09-10 06:05:24 <jgarzik> protobuf P2P. HTTP+JSON RPC will be a trivial bolt-on from pynode.
451 2012-09-10 06:06:00 <jgarzik> since the bond stuff is protobuf, wanted to make sure those bits were working
452 2012-09-10 06:06:29 <amiller> it's a pretty cool technique for building p2p clients in python
453 2012-09-10 06:07:28 <jgarzik> yep. once pynode's http server (a recipe copied from some py cookbook) is bolted on, it is a nice generic p2p+rpc node for experimentation.
454 2012-09-10 06:07:49 <jgarzik> then bond market stuff should be all "business logic", with little crapola code left to write
455 2012-09-10 06:10:59 DaQatz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
456 2012-09-10 06:12:54 * Luke-Jr wonders why jgarzik must use old-Python :<
457 2012-09-10 06:13:17 <amiller> er, pybond is a bit different than pynode in that pybond seems to listen for open p2p connections whereas pynode doesn't do that - pynode's interface to the p2p network is through bitcoin
458 2012-09-10 06:15:05 <jgarzik> amiller: pybond connects out and listens. pynode connects out, does not listen.
459 2012-09-10 06:16:04 <jgarzik> amiller: so "is through bitcoin" is mainly a matter of semantics ;p
460 2012-09-10 06:16:18 <jgarzik> pynode talks with any bitcoin p2p node
461 2012-09-10 06:17:54 * jgarzik needs to switch to twisted (dependency++), or decide to fix decade-old asyncore.
462 2012-09-10 06:18:17 <jgarzik> pynode becoming a connect-out, listen-in full P2P node is blocked on python stupidity, sadly
463 2012-09-10 06:18:28 <jgarzik> pybond has the same problem
464 2012-09-10 06:18:58 <amiller> i recommend twisted and asking tahoe-lafs for help somehow
465 2012-09-10 06:19:01 <Luke-Jr> or upgrade to Python3
466 2012-09-10 06:19:07 <Luke-Jr> Twisted = garbage
467 2012-09-10 06:19:18 <amiller> i don't know wtf about asyncore though
468 2012-09-10 06:19:33 <Luke-Jr> asyncore does suck too :/
469 2012-09-10 06:19:45 <amiller> twisted's better than any alternative, i'm not sure what you'd use in python3
470 2012-09-10 06:20:05 <Luke-Jr> amiller: for what? for writing unreadable code?
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472 2012-09-10 06:21:03 <jgarzik> asyncore is acceptable for servers, but it has a bug that throws uncaught exceptions, when connections-out fail
473 2012-09-10 06:22:04 <Luke-Jr> amiller: with Python3, you could use Eloipool's NetworkServer, HTTPServer, or JSONRPCServer ;)
474 2012-09-10 06:22:17 <jgarzik> asyncore also uses select/poll, which is not as efficient for large numbers of fd's, or for long running connections. twisted is a bit more opaque, but does not have these bugs, and does support epoll.
475 2012-09-10 06:22:33 <wumpus> asyncore is more like a proof of concept
476 2012-09-10 06:22:41 <jgarzik> ...written in 1996
477 2012-09-10 06:22:56 * amiller is about to enjoy reading Luke-Jr's highly readable code
478 2012-09-10 06:23:07 <wumpus> yep... it's not a good library to base something serious on
479 2012-09-10 06:26:30 <amiller> eloipool uses asynchat uses asyncore
480 2012-09-10 06:27:05 <amiller> but i don't think that matters too much, it could be swapped out with anything better
481 2012-09-10 06:27:18 <wumpus> well if you say it's different in python 3.0... I only know the 2.x one
482 2012-09-10 06:27:44 <amiller> Luke-Jr, what i'm looking to see is whether or not your code is "simpler than twisted" because every command is handled synchronously
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486 2012-09-10 06:30:27 <Luke-Jr> amiller: Eloipool uses a few functions from asynchat/asyncore, but I had to reimplement a lot of it :p
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488 2012-09-10 06:31:05 <Luke-Jr> amiller: individual commands are synchronous
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490 2012-09-10 06:31:18 <Luke-Jr> except for longpolls
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492 2012-09-10 06:31:51 <amiller> genjix wrote a whole elaborate tutorial on asynchronous programming in c++ for libbitcoin using a crazy boost library, in python the closest match to that library is twisted
493 2012-09-10 06:32:16 <amiller> otherwise you have to hack in your own longpolls at some point
494 2012-09-10 06:33:37 <jgarzik> a multi-threaded, asynchronous HTTP JSON-RPC server in C++: https://github.com/jgarzik/rpcsrv
495 2012-09-10 06:33:59 <jgarzik> uses boost.asio. genjix has been spotted on the boost.asio list in the past, so I'm guessing that is the "crazy boost library" ;p
496 2012-09-10 06:34:10 coblee_ has joined
497 2012-09-10 06:34:13 <amiller> yup
498 2012-09-10 06:34:22 <wumpus> yes boost::asio is pretty neat
499 2012-09-10 06:34:24 <amiller> hrm hrm
500 2012-09-10 06:34:42 <amiller> jgarzik, since you've worked with both now, how do they stack up to each other
501 2012-09-10 06:34:51 <amiller> using boost.asio vs python asyncore, vs twisted if you've looked into it?
502 2012-09-10 06:35:20 <jrmithdobbs> boost::* works worse than all of the above
503 2012-09-10 06:35:27 <jgarzik> boost.asio is barely industrial strength. asyncore is a toy. twisted is opaque but solid in production.
504 2012-09-10 06:35:29 <jrmithdobbs> you can tell because it has boost in the name
505 2012-09-10 06:35:34 <jgarzik> serious C/C++ wants libevent
506 2012-09-10 06:35:46 <wumpus> well twisted provides this whole framework with pre-implemented protocols and handlers and such, it's not really comparable unless you only use the base features
507 2012-09-10 06:36:27 <amiller> python gevent is pretty swell for getting libevent
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510 2012-09-10 06:37:06 <jrmithdobbs> libevent really is better than all of the above
511 2012-09-10 06:37:22 <jrmithdobbs> thats not just linux bigotry
512 2012-09-10 06:37:26 <wumpus> pff depends on what you need
513 2012-09-10 06:37:31 <jrmithdobbs> it really doesn't
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515 2012-09-10 06:45:25 <phantomcircuit> twisted is a ridiculous mess
516 2012-09-10 06:46:27 <amiller> so is boost
517 2012-09-10 06:46:40 <phantomcircuit> true
518 2012-09-10 06:46:48 <wumpus> async code always looks like a spaghetti mess
519 2012-09-10 06:47:24 darkee has joined
520 2012-09-10 06:47:43 ThomasV has joined
521 2012-09-10 06:48:14 <jgarzik> all these OOP I/O layers were written circa 1992
522 2012-09-10 06:48:26 <ThomasV> tcatm: virwox was removed from bitcoincharts?
523 2012-09-10 06:48:28 <jgarzik> asyncore is a toy... but it sure does get me up and running fast, so there's its value
524 2012-09-10 06:48:38 <jgarzik> easy enough to switch out
525 2012-09-10 06:48:39 <wumpus> unless you use some coroutine stuff like gevent, but the monkey patching has its own issues
526 2012-09-10 06:49:19 <wumpus> yes, I suppose that's the reason for leaving it in the python library, it's easy for quick hacks
527 2012-09-10 06:49:22 <phantomcircuit> ThomasV, im guessing his data set is screwed up
528 2012-09-10 06:49:47 <wumpus> if you only have 10 clients you really don't care about 10000 socket scalability
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530 2012-09-10 06:50:42 <amiller> wumpus, yeah coroutine style is the only one that actually is easier to read
531 2012-09-10 06:51:10 <amiller> the problem isn't scalability in number of clients, but scalability in more features added
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533 2012-09-10 06:52:19 <wumpus> lightweight threads is really what you're trying to achieve anyway, but it usually comes at the cost of having to write explicit state machines and control flow all over the place
534 2012-09-10 06:52:54 <wumpus> right, otherwise you end up implementing the more complex libraries anyway, usually in a bad way :)
535 2012-09-10 06:53:28 <wumpus> speaking of that, I think it'd be nice to replace the hand-rolled select loop and winsock wrapper in the bitcoin P2P code with something like boost::asio or gevent
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537 2012-09-10 06:54:00 <wumpus> eh libevent
538 2012-09-10 06:54:55 <ThomasV> phantomcircuit: probably
539 2012-09-10 06:55:06 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
540 2012-09-10 06:55:18 <jrmithdobbs> haha winsock
541 2012-09-10 06:55:49 <jgarzik> new_connection_.reset(new connection(io_service_, request_handler_));
542 2012-09-10 06:55:50 <jgarzik> acceptor_.async_accept(new_connection_->socket(), new_connection_->peer,
543 2012-09-10 06:55:50 <jgarzik> boost::bind(&server::handle_accept, this,
544 2012-09-10 06:55:50 <jgarzik> boost::asio::placeholders::error));
545 2012-09-10 06:56:03 <jgarzik> otherwise known as "start async accept"
546 2012-09-10 06:56:13 <jgarzik> boost is full of such long crud
547 2012-09-10 06:56:16 <jrmithdobbs> that is ugly as fuck
548 2012-09-10 06:56:23 <wumpus> that's... C++
549 2012-09-10 06:56:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol i had a very simple irc client i wrote around boost::asio
550 2012-09-10 06:56:35 <wumpus> it's ugly as fuck, but so is life
551 2012-09-10 06:56:35 <jrmithdobbs> no that's boost
552 2012-09-10 06:56:39 <phantomcircuit> it was really fast
553 2012-09-10 06:56:46 <phantomcircuit> but a ridiculous amount of code
554 2012-09-10 06:56:52 <jgarzik> exactly
555 2012-09-10 06:57:19 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: you wrote pushpool with libevent, and that turned out to be the biggest problem with itâ¦
556 2012-09-10 06:57:23 <wumpus> yes that's the thing with template based code, it gets optimized very well, but it's terrifying to write
557 2012-09-10 06:58:05 <jgarzik> terrifying to debug, terrify to attempt decoding compiler messages, ...
558 2012-09-10 06:58:17 <wumpus> and templates are boost's conception of 'modern c++', whether you agree or not...
559 2012-09-10 06:58:34 <Luke-Jr> I hear clang has nice template error messages
560 2012-09-10 06:58:36 <wumpus> with clang the compiler messages are pretty nice even for templated code
561 2012-09-10 06:58:38 <wumpus> yep Luke-Jr
562 2012-09-10 06:58:45 <wumpus> readable and colorful
563 2012-09-10 06:59:45 <wumpus> and super-fast compilation, though gcc also is very fast these days
564 2012-09-10 07:01:49 root2 has joined
565 2012-09-10 07:01:50 <wumpus> clangs static analysis framework is also promising, though it's currently mainly aimed at objective C not C++
566 2012-09-10 07:05:48 <amiller> jgarzik, can you give me an example of how to use this skeleton
567 2012-09-10 07:05:55 <amiller> i think what i should do is create two config files that each know to connect to each other
568 2012-09-10 07:05:57 <amiller> and run two instances
569 2012-09-10 07:06:32 <amiller> actually nvm one should be a test script
570 2012-09-10 07:06:42 <jgarzik> amiller: http://pastebin.com/CwxJB3nJ
571 2012-09-10 07:06:56 <jgarzik> amiller: that's a two node config, one listens, one connects
572 2012-09-10 07:07:13 <amiller> okay thanks
573 2012-09-10 07:09:27 <jgarzik> amiller: pushed that as example*.cfg in pybond.git
574 2012-09-10 07:10:59 <amiller> okay and what i really want is to be watching the debug log for the respective things, not the stderr
575 2012-09-10 07:11:41 <jgarzik> amiller: yes. tail -f $logfile
576 2012-09-10 07:12:17 <jgarzik> amiller: from "log=/your/log/file.log" line in your configuration file
577 2012-09-10 07:12:19 <amiller> jgarzik, your config files with /spare/tmp/bonddb1 need to be changed, what if you just do ./examples/bonddb1 or something and include those
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581 2012-09-10 07:13:07 <jgarzik> amiller: pathnames are expected to be changed before deployment, I tend to think
582 2012-09-10 07:16:12 <amiller> k, with pynode i wasn't sure how what i should modify and what i should create before deploying
583 2012-09-10 07:17:25 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: is there a reason submitblock is disabled in safe mode? :/
584 2012-09-10 07:21:40 <amiller> jgarzik, i'm going to try to make a gevent version that's protocol compliant with what you have now
585 2012-09-10 07:21:56 <amiller> jgarzik, would you take whatever you'd call your 'skeleton' and tag it as a commit somewhere so i can continue to compare against it
586 2012-09-10 07:22:06 <amiller> (before it gets more complicated than this)
587 2012-09-10 07:23:38 LightRider has joined
588 2012-09-10 07:24:08 <LightRider> What is code -22?
589 2012-09-10 07:24:42 <LightRider> I'm trying to send a raw transaction and I get this error.
590 2012-09-10 07:28:03 Varan has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
591 2012-09-10 07:28:04 <jgarzik> amiller: that sounds more appropriate to a local tag on your side...
592 2012-09-10 07:28:41 <jgarzik> amiller: I would have to call the branch "amiller-preferred-branchpoint" otherwise ;p
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596 2012-09-10 07:29:15 <amiller> heh yeah i guess you're right there
597 2012-09-10 07:29:33 * jgarzik finds a libevent C++ wrapper, http://www.llucax.com.ar/proj/eventxx/
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600 2012-09-10 07:33:59 <LightRider> TX rejected (code -22)
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606 2012-09-10 07:42:13 <jgarzik> amiller: if -gevent turns out well, certainly would be an improvement over asyncore
607 2012-09-10 07:42:59 <amiller> i want to avoid wasting my time on a strawman, but i want to make as little of a change as possible vs what you have to make easy comparison
608 2012-09-10 07:43:03 <jgarzik> amiller: I am planning to keep pybond in 'skeleton' state for another 24 hours at least. Have to add the DHT, don't ya know.
609 2012-09-10 07:43:21 <amiller> that's enough of a time window for me :p
610 2012-09-10 07:43:59 <amiller> difficulty = work / time, eh
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612 2012-09-10 07:51:52 <wumpus> error code -22, is, well, error code -22... we don't define any constants for RPC the error codes
613 2012-09-10 07:52:28 <wumpus> I suppose the debug log tells more
614 2012-09-10 07:55:23 <wumpus> jgarzik: I'm a bit skeptical about C++ wrappers around C code usually, as it's mostly a matter of style, though here it's nice that it adds member functions-as-callback
615 2012-09-10 07:55:47 <jgarzik> wumpus: I have no idea if it's useful for not
616 2012-09-10 07:56:05 <jgarzik> I know that my libevent programming has led me to create C++-like objects in C ;p
617 2012-09-10 07:57:05 <wumpus> even boost cannot do that for boost::signal... you end up either writing a static wrapper function that calls the c++ method, or manual remapping of the *this argument with boost::bind
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621 2012-09-10 08:08:20 <jgarzik> the benefits of code reuse... it took me all of 20 minutes to add RPC server to pybond
622 2012-09-10 08:10:53 <wumpus> heh
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632 2012-09-10 08:34:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: fwiw, the errors I got earlier were printing prevblock very wrong; looks like Deepbit was sending the next block via normal getwork early, then the old one via normal getwork again, then the longpoll finally solved it altogether
633 2012-09-10 08:34:53 <Luke-Jr> definitely smells like a load balancing issue
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642 2012-09-10 09:00:38 <amiller> hey jgarzik, check this out https://github.com/amiller/pybond/blob/gevent/gnode.py
643 2012-09-10 09:00:45 Obsi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
644 2012-09-10 09:00:53 <amiller> i made a gnode.py that is 4-way compatible with your node.py
645 2012-09-10 09:01:18 <amiller> (meaning you can run any combination as client or server, thanks to how awesome protobuf is)
646 2012-09-10 09:01:46 <amiller> i removed your ad hoc state machine
647 2012-09-10 09:02:07 has_many has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
648 2012-09-10 09:02:48 <amiller> it's arguably easier to read and understand this way
649 2012-09-10 09:03:10 <amiller> basically we have substituted the magic of the asyncore dispatcher for the magic of gevent's monkeypatched cooperative sockets
650 2012-09-10 09:04:12 has_many has joined
651 2012-09-10 09:11:13 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/pybond/commit/66d399f4d6c6e6de2462c1a11d85e476be2c4b93
652 2012-09-10 09:15:35 <amiller> the result of this experiment is that it's even simpler to use gevent than asyncore (e.g., measured in number of state machines!), let alone the fact that gevent is more stable than asyncore
653 2012-09-10 09:19:27 LightRider has joined
654 2012-09-10 09:21:21 <_dr> where in the source can i find the function that generated sig for transaction inputs?
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690 2012-09-10 10:53:48 <Joric> sipa, can you make something like that but for bitcoins? http://internet-map.net
691 2012-09-10 10:58:27 Evilmax has joined
692 2012-09-10 10:58:53 <Joric> 350k+ sites, 2m links, rebalancing takes several weeks, uploading 30m tiles (256x256) takes two days
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698 2012-09-10 11:05:56 <Diablo-D3> sipa, gmaxwell: those changes that made syncing faster... when do I get those?
699 2012-09-10 11:08:13 <Joric> maybe that http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/ultraprune/
700 2012-09-10 11:09:26 <Diablo-D3> its not merged into mainline though
701 2012-09-10 11:10:53 slush2 has joined
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707 2012-09-10 11:17:15 <wumpus> if you help testing it, it may make it into mainline faster
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711 2012-09-10 11:26:00 <ThomasV> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg10ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv <-- it looks like the 10 days chart is not updating anymore...
712 2012-09-10 11:36:42 leotreasure has joined
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728 2012-09-10 12:28:15 <tcatm> Why does a database break, when the RAID1 below it is consistent?!
729 2012-09-10 12:28:32 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
730 2012-09-10 12:28:39 <edcba> why mentioning RAID1 at all ?
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737 2012-09-10 12:31:21 <sipa> tcatm: raid1 guarantees per-block consistency between the two devices
738 2012-09-10 12:31:27 Rollyvan has joined
739 2012-09-10 12:31:33 Rollyvan is now known as Evilmax
740 2012-09-10 12:31:34 <sipa> (well, in the optimal case_
741 2012-09-10 12:31:36 Evilmax has quit (Changing host)
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743 2012-09-10 12:32:00 <sipa> even then, it's no guarantee a crashed application can't cause corruption w.rt. its own consistency rules
744 2012-09-10 12:32:12 <sipa> Diablo-D3: 0.8 hopefully
745 2012-09-10 12:32:47 <sipa> Joric: feel free to make something like that? :)
746 2012-09-10 12:36:33 <Joric> naa he pays $3k for hosting )
747 2012-09-10 12:37:17 agricocb has joined
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749 2012-09-10 12:41:16 <Evilmax> why when I start the bitcoin client (wallet) for a moment I get a balance of 123 btc?
750 2012-09-10 12:41:58 theorbtwo has joined
751 2012-09-10 12:48:07 egecko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
752 2012-09-10 12:49:18 <sipa> Evilmax: GUI problem; fixed in 0.7.0
753 2012-09-10 12:51:05 egecko has joined
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756 2012-09-10 12:59:17 Clipse has quit (Quit: Clipse)
757 2012-09-10 13:02:32 <Evilmax> ok
758 2012-09-10 13:02:37 Clipse has joined
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772 2012-09-10 13:44:17 <Diablo-D3> sipa: 0.8? thats like 2016
773 2012-09-10 13:44:20 <Diablo-D3> :<
774 2012-09-10 13:44:38 t7_ has joined
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778 2012-09-10 13:47:19 <epscy> 123 free btc?
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795 2012-09-10 14:06:46 <gavinandresen> anybody awake?
796 2012-09-10 14:07:15 Nesetalis has joined
797 2012-09-10 14:10:11 <epscy> zzz
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800 2012-09-10 14:12:21 <kinlo> I am :)
801 2012-09-10 14:12:33 <kinlo> which reminds me, I need to still reply your mail
802 2012-09-10 14:12:38 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
803 2012-09-10 14:13:55 <copumpkin> anyone know what the deal is with the public notes?
804 2012-09-10 14:14:06 <copumpkin> http://snapplr.com/dty7
805 2012-09-10 14:14:31 <copumpkin> http://snapplr.com/rg5w
806 2012-09-10 14:15:43 Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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808 2012-09-10 14:18:25 <gavinandresen> copumpkin: sure, it was a neat idea, badly implemented. I think we've convinced Ben to hold off until it can be implemented better.
809 2012-09-10 14:18:35 <copumpkin> oh
810 2012-09-10 14:18:39 <copumpkin> so that's actually in the blockchain?
811 2012-09-10 14:19:04 <Diablo-D3> what?
812 2012-09-10 14:19:31 <sipa> depends; he originally had notes just in a txid->message database, but then decided to store them in a phony txout in the actual transactions
813 2012-09-10 14:19:46 <sipa> he switched back to a txid->message database after complaints
814 2012-09-10 14:19:57 <Diablo-D3> what are we talking about?
815 2012-09-10 14:20:05 <sipa> blockchain.info transaction messages
816 2012-09-10 14:20:34 <Diablo-D3> oh, whatever happened to that?
817 2012-09-10 14:20:49 <sipa> read back two lines
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820 2012-09-10 14:21:10 <gavinandresen> sipa: do you understand what's going on with the IPv6-doesn't-work reports in the rc2 thread ?
821 2012-09-10 14:21:27 tonikt has joined
822 2012-09-10 14:21:41 <sipa> gavinandresen: that's the crazy ipv6 rpc stuff; i don't know anything about that
823 2012-09-10 14:21:58 <sipa> (it's independent from my p2p ipv6 code)
824 2012-09-10 14:22:01 <gavinandresen> sipa: who does? jgarzik ?
825 2012-09-10 14:22:09 <sipa> "muggenhor" wrote it
826 2012-09-10 14:22:20 <gavinandresen> mmmm.....
827 2012-09-10 14:22:23 <sipa> (i did merge it, though, i think...)
828 2012-09-10 14:23:46 DiabloD3 has joined
829 2012-09-10 14:23:49 <gavinandresen> I just can't tell if it is a 0.7.0 final showstopper
830 2012-09-10 14:24:37 <sipa> github seems down?
831 2012-09-10 14:25:04 <gavinandresen> https://status.github.com/
832 2012-09-10 14:25:16 <gavinandresen> they failed over
833 2012-09-10 14:25:32 <DiabloD3> damnit
834 2012-09-10 14:25:36 <DiabloD3> no one heard me I guess
835 2012-09-10 14:25:50 <DiabloD3> [10:16:16] <Diablo-D3> PANIC
836 2012-09-10 14:25:50 <DiabloD3> [10:16:19] <Diablo-D3> GITHUB IS DOWN
837 2012-09-10 14:26:04 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
838 2012-09-10 14:26:28 <sipa> that was before you even joined this channel...
839 2012-09-10 14:26:31 MC-Eeepc has joined
840 2012-09-10 14:27:40 <DiabloD3> sipa: I pinged out
841 2012-09-10 14:27:56 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: fyi, that database/ dir could be as important as wallet.dat to keep sometimes
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844 2012-09-10 14:28:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: i haven't looked at it in too much detail, but seems that it fails trying to bind to the ipv6 any address if no ipv6 stack is present
845 2012-09-10 14:28:34 <sipa> gavinandresen: so i guess it's just a matter of catching an exception and ignoring it
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849 2012-09-10 14:36:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: if that's the case, i'd say it's a dealbreaker for 0.7.0, but easily fixed
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853 2012-09-10 14:38:12 <gavinandresen> ok... can you easily fix it?
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857 2012-09-10 14:42:43 <jgarzik> amiller: very cool. will check it out.
858 2012-09-10 14:43:01 tastynaysty has joined
859 2012-09-10 14:43:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen sipa: it sounds like there is sufficient build support for IPv6 in some cases, but it fails at runtime. Just need an additional check for failure, then re-bind with AF_INET
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864 2012-09-10 14:51:53 <jgarzik> amiller: you removed the send buffer.... hmmm
865 2012-09-10 14:52:41 <jgarzik> amiller: without pausing the message processing or other measures, that means the OS will drop (and/or truncate) messages once the send buffer fills up
866 2012-09-10 14:53:03 <jgarzik> amiller: which was largely the reason for the send buffer in the first place ;p
867 2012-09-10 14:54:24 <jgarzik> rofl
868 2012-09-10 14:54:32 <jgarzik> spam in my inbox: "Meetups this week with: IBD Enthusiasts, Zumbalicious, Tennis Players, and others"
869 2012-09-10 14:54:54 * jgarzik never knew that IBD enthusiasts existed. Guess some people _like_ long, slow downloads!
870 2012-09-10 14:55:02 setkeh` has quit (Quit: Love Linux ?? and Sharing Experience ?? Come Join us on Freenode at #linuxdistrocommunity)
871 2012-09-10 14:55:10 <gmaxwell> Irritable bowel disease enthusiasts?
872 2012-09-10 14:55:11 setkeh has joined
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889 2012-09-10 15:50:43 * ne0futur looking for partners and coders to build a free and open source, long lasting public service around bitcoin, for now for the price and feed tools on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68205 and later with also graphing tools and mor
890 2012-09-10 15:52:32 <kreal> what is endorse?
891 2012-09-10 15:52:47 <kreal> endorsecount
892 2012-09-10 15:54:35 osxorgate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
893 2012-09-10 15:55:10 <ne0futur> ah forget it
894 2012-09-10 15:55:10 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
895 2012-09-10 15:55:23 <kreal> ok
896 2012-09-10 15:55:34 <ne0futur> its from http://coderwall.com/
897 2012-09-10 15:55:41 <kreal> just though it was maybe similar to https://bitcoinspeech.com/trust
898 2012-09-10 15:55:45 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
899 2012-09-10 15:56:02 PK has joined
900 2012-09-10 15:56:28 <ne0futur> my codereall team : http://coderwall.com/team/neoskills
901 2012-09-10 15:57:05 <ne0futur> just some kind of coder social network based on your github achievements
902 2012-09-10 15:57:35 <ne0futur> http://coderwall.com/neofutur
903 2012-09-10 15:57:45 <kreal> ohrighty.
904 2012-09-10 15:58:23 <kreal> well if you pay my food, I'll be more then happy to help me.
905 2012-09-10 15:58:28 <kreal> you probably know what I can do.
906 2012-09-10 15:58:39 <kreal> s/me/you
907 2012-09-10 15:58:42 <ne0futur> eh I paid 20 btc for https://github.com/Trasp/GoxCLI
908 2012-09-10 15:59:17 <ne0futur> and a few btcs to zapsoda for his work on https://github.com/neofutur/MyBestBB
909 2012-09-10 15:59:47 <kreal> well then.
910 2012-09-10 15:59:52 <ne0futur> concerning the public service on p.b.gw.gd you ll just get partners links
911 2012-09-10 16:00:11 <kreal> I'l return in 10 days.
912 2012-09-10 16:00:13 <ne0futur> SEO and traffic, and possibly donations
913 2012-09-10 16:00:28 <kreal> currently building a mobile site for a hotel chains.
914 2012-09-10 16:00:30 <kreal> meh work.
915 2012-09-10 16:01:12 <kreal> just finished their new site.
916 2012-09-10 16:01:17 <kreal> http://www.arp-hansen.dk/ <-- pretty neat no ?
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921 2012-09-10 16:05:16 sebicas has joined
922 2012-09-10 16:05:34 <ne0futur> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arp-hansen.dk%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
923 2012-09-10 16:05:42 [\\\] has joined
924 2012-09-10 16:05:49 <ne0futur> kreal: not so bad, I seens much worst validation
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931 2012-09-10 16:22:45 <amiller> hey jgarzik
932 2012-09-10 16:22:59 <amiller> there are three behaviors you might want for this, i'll show you all three of them if you like
933 2012-09-10 16:23:01 <jgarzik> amiller: Whoops, sorry for the drop-out. 2.5 yo caused a cascading home networking failure ;p I may have missed messages.
934 2012-09-10 16:23:18 <amiller> nah i buffered indefinitely and waited for your return :p
935 2012-09-10 16:23:33 <jgarzik> amiller: ok shoot
936 2012-09-10 16:23:45 <amiller> so i meant to replace my 'send' with 'sendall' and that's the one i think with the best semantics
937 2012-09-10 16:23:53 <amiller> what happens is that the thread will block if the os buffer is full
938 2012-09-10 16:24:14 <amiller> but it won't interfere with any other threads
939 2012-09-10 16:24:39 <amiller> the alternative (the way you did it before) is to buffer unboundedly in ram
940 2012-09-10 16:25:22 <amiller> we can also make a potentially large ram buffer and then throw an exception if the buffer fills up (but you may as well just use the os buffer for that)
941 2012-09-10 16:25:53 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
942 2012-09-10 16:26:34 <amiller> so it's 1) if send doesn't complete because buffer is full, then through an exception 2) block the thread if the os buffer is full or 3) build an arbitrarily large external buffer
943 2012-09-10 16:26:36 <amiller> i like 2)
944 2012-09-10 16:26:46 <kreal> ne0futur, didn't make the html, just the booking form :)
945 2012-09-10 16:27:10 slush1 has joined
946 2012-09-10 16:27:23 <BlueMatt> does matthew mitchell come on here/is he here?
947 2012-09-10 16:28:05 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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949 2012-09-10 16:31:49 <kreal> _ma
950 2012-09-10 16:31:50 <kreal> no
951 2012-09-10 16:33:41 devrandom has joined
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956 2012-09-10 16:45:24 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: your auto test thing is p cool, first time i've submitted a pull since you set that up
957 2012-09-10 16:51:14 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: thanks, still need to do the github integration stuff... https://github.com/blog/1227-commit-status-api
958 2012-09-10 16:51:53 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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960 2012-09-10 16:54:30 <jgarzik> amiller: Well the simple solution is RAM buffer + simply disconnect if the peer is misbehaving, and somehow (by bug, network misfortune or design) causing the buffer to grow too large
961 2012-09-10 16:54:48 <jgarzik> amiller: or stall read, another popular solution
962 2012-09-10 16:54:54 <jgarzik> standard flow control
963 2012-09-10 16:55:19 <jgarzik> amiller: but blocking is just fine, too. I merely did not see handling in the code.
964 2012-09-10 16:55:48 <jgarzik> amiller: looked like the code was directly calling the OS syscall, in a non-blocking mode
965 2012-09-10 16:55:59 <amiller> yeah, that was my mistake - it is there now (send vs sendall)
966 2012-09-10 16:57:01 <jgarzik> amiller: ok
967 2012-09-10 16:57:14 <jgarzik> amiller: I would like to make your greenlets version the official pybond
968 2012-09-10 16:57:28 <jgarzik> amiller: need to figure out how to do http serving for JSON-RPC though
969 2012-09-10 16:57:43 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
970 2012-09-10 16:58:26 <amiller> jgarzik, sure, it should be mostly orthogonal
971 2012-09-10 16:58:59 <amiller> i'll help you make the greenlet version of whichever http thing you're willing to use
972 2012-09-10 17:00:46 <jgarzik> amiller: check out git HEAD of pybond
973 2012-09-10 17:01:21 <jgarzik> amiller: that imported pynode's httpsrv recipe, which is asyncore-based. pynode's RPC code is tested to be compliant with bitcoin's JSON-RPC, so it would be useful to reuse, if possible.
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980 2012-09-10 17:07:59 <amiller> jgarzik, okay interesting, async_chat uses most of the python SimpleHTTPRequestHandler framework
981 2012-09-10 17:08:09 <amiller> as far as i know gevent can do that, for example in this test http://gevent.googlecode.com/hg/greentest/test_ssl.py
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983 2012-09-10 17:09:05 <amiller> how should i test httpsrv?
984 2012-09-10 17:09:44 <jgarzik> amiller: curl --user user --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "getinfo", "params": [] }' http://127.0.0.1:10301/
985 2012-09-10 17:10:08 <jgarzik> amiller: --user, password and port parameters come from settings{}
986 2012-09-10 17:14:32 RazielZ has joined
987 2012-09-10 17:15:56 <amiller> jgarzik: i get the following from line 263: AttributeError: 'cStringIO.StringO' object has no attribute 'len'
988 2012-09-10 17:19:07 Arnavion has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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990 2012-09-10 17:20:20 <jgarzik> amiller: hmmm, I don't see where it looks at len directly
991 2012-09-10 17:20:24 <jgarzik> amiller: are you using python3?
992 2012-09-10 17:20:43 <amiller> oh - no, python2.7
993 2012-09-10 17:20:46 <amiller> i don't think you are either though
994 2012-09-10 17:21:19 <amiller> https://github.com/jgarzik/pybond/blob/master/httpsrv.py#L263
995 2012-09-10 17:22:02 Arnavion has joined
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997 2012-09-10 17:23:14 <jgarzik> amiller: appears to be return SimpleHTTPServer.SimpleHTTPRequestHandler.send_head(self) ?
998 2012-09-10 17:23:45 <amiller> line 263: size = f.len
999 2012-09-10 17:24:14 <jgarzik> amiller: yes... but what is f ?
1000 2012-09-10 17:24:40 <amiller> i'm on commit aeb095d5, is that most recent?
1001 2012-09-10 17:25:10 <amiller> (apparently, f is a cstringio.stringio)
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1007 2012-09-10 17:27:47 <jgarzik> amiller: aeb095d50d88ce564181de97756077ad331d6fb3 is most recent, yes
1008 2012-09-10 17:27:53 <jgarzik> amiller: maybe I am blind and not reading the code
1009 2012-09-10 17:27:56 bonks has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1010 2012-09-10 17:28:25 <jgarzik> amiller: f = self.send_head()
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1012 2012-09-10 17:28:48 <jgarzik> amiller: and self.send_head() returns the value returned by SimpleHTTPServer.SimpleHTTPRequestHandler.send_head(self), yes?
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1014 2012-09-10 17:29:47 <amiller> jgarzik, i agree with all that yes
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1019 2012-09-10 17:30:22 <jgarzik> amiller: and SimpleHTTPServer creates f with "f = open(path, 'rb')"
1020 2012-09-10 17:30:29 <jgarzik> amiller: thus, I do not see how it can be a cStringIO
1021 2012-09-10 17:33:30 <jgarzik> amiller: and, hmmm, besides... I am overriding that particular method
1022 2012-09-10 17:33:51 <jgarzik> amiller: so perhaps your problem is only seen when testing httpsrv.py directly, rather than via rpc.py?
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1025 2012-09-10 17:34:05 <amiller> jgarzik, that could be, i am definitely just running httpsrv directly
1026 2012-09-10 17:35:11 <jgarzik> amiller: I think that might be it. There are some rpc-specific hacks in httpsrv's do_POST, and rpc overrides handle_data very intentionally, because the default httpsrv does not work
1027 2012-09-10 17:35:21 <jgarzik> amiller: default httpsrv assumes file serving, which we do not do
1028 2012-09-10 17:36:03 <jgarzik> amiller: our httpsrv assumes we can gobble up all POST data into a memory buffer
1029 2012-09-10 17:36:42 <jgarzik> amiller: which is fine... HTTP requests should never be > 16MB or something large like that. HTTP(JSON-RPC) responses might be large.
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1031 2012-09-10 17:37:41 <amiller> jgarzik, i think i would prefer to use bottle.py rather for this part rather than trying to port httpsrv
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1033 2012-09-10 17:38:12 <jgarzik> amiller: feel free to replace httpsrv in its entirety.
1034 2012-09-10 17:38:14 <amiller> bottle.py is the lightest weight of the lightweight frameworks, it is literally one file https://github.com/defnull/bottle/blob/master/bottle.py
1035 2012-09-10 17:38:14 <amiller> okay
1036 2012-09-10 17:38:42 <amiller> jgarzik, well my reservations are that i'm probably going to mess up the buffer semantics the first few times and i'm not totally sure how to test this stuff thoroughly
1037 2012-09-10 17:38:44 <jgarzik> amiller: the main requirement is http 1.1 keepalive/pipelining
1038 2012-09-10 17:40:01 <jgarzik> amiller: as long as you preserve JSON-RPC 2.0 batch support and standard JSON-RPC, HTTP/1.1 keepalive, the remaining underlying details are unimportant to me.
1039 2012-09-10 17:42:09 <amiller> jgarzik, hrm, pipelining seems not to work with gevent, or with libevent generally
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1041 2012-09-10 17:42:33 <jgarzik> amiller: bosh, sure it does
1042 2012-09-10 17:43:06 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1043 2012-09-10 17:43:36 <jgarzik> amiller: it will queue up in the OS buffers, if nothing else
1044 2012-09-10 17:44:17 <jgarzik> amiller: pipelining is simply sending requests 1, 2, 3, and then looking for responses 1, 2, 3.
1045 2012-09-10 17:44:47 <jgarzik> amiller: and keepalive is merely some state machine logic, to reset HTTP parsing rather than closing the connection after data transmit
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1050 2012-09-10 17:50:12 <jgarzik> amiller: proxies, web frameworks and WSGI tend to continually reset the connection between the client and JSON-RPC server (pynode/pybond). Certainly that can be coded-around, but it becomes a huge pain, making it simpler to simply embed an http server.
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1056 2012-09-10 17:54:55 <amiller> ah, gevent.pywsgi supports HTTP 1/1 keepalive because it doesn't use as much of libevent's server
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1062 2012-09-10 17:58:26 <jgarzik> amiller: oh, libevent's server. yeah, that sucks ;p
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1064 2012-09-10 17:58:54 <jgarzik> amiller: wholly inadequate
1065 2012-09-10 17:59:02 <jgarzik> libevent's event framework is just fine
1066 2012-09-10 17:59:15 <jgarzik> the http server is basically a cheap demo, not industrial strength, however
1067 2012-09-10 17:59:28 <amiller> gevent.pywsgi is the way to go then
1068 2012-09-10 17:59:45 <jgarzik> amiller: does that require a separate wsgi server?
1069 2012-09-10 18:00:02 <jgarzik> amiller: I rather prefer a single-process design
1070 2012-09-10 18:00:25 <jgarzik> well, single "binary". it can fork or thread all it wants.
1071 2012-09-10 18:00:56 <amiller> nah single process
1072 2012-09-10 18:01:48 <jgarzik> ok, good
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1088 2012-09-10 18:32:15 <gavinandresen> sipa wumpus jgarzik gmaxwell : I organized some thoughts on OP_DROP at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108423
1089 2012-09-10 18:32:27 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1090 2012-09-10 18:33:03 <gavinandresen> TD might be interested, too....
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1099 2012-09-10 18:47:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: colored coins are an interesting concept
1100 2012-09-10 18:47:35 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: but as you say in the post, I don't see anything as reliable or secure as simply signing with the transaction
1101 2012-09-10 18:47:40 Marf has joined
1102 2012-09-10 18:50:58 <gmaxwell> meh. For a basic bond all you need is coloring. There are cases you can construct where you need bound data. I'm still generally not in the fan of speculative enablement. God knows if you'll actually get the required stuff correct, and there is a risk from unintended applications.
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1106 2012-09-10 18:52:20 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: speculative design is good, though, right? First step: talk about. Then implement it. Then test it. Then roll it out to production ....
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1108 2012-09-10 18:52:37 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sure but you should be talking about the applications, not the blockchain behavior.
1109 2012-09-10 18:52:46 <gmaxwell> Then the applications will tell you what the behavior needs to be.
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1111 2012-09-10 18:52:55 <gavinandresen> Ok: I want refund addresses with my transactions. There's the application.
1112 2012-09-10 18:53:24 <gavinandresen> (note that is already being done via hacks, aka SatoshiDice's extra txout with a specific value trick)
1113 2012-09-10 18:53:31 <kakobrekla> hmm, i dont see "File", "Settings" and "Help" option on ubuntu like on windows?
1114 2012-09-10 18:53:36 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: you just posted the correct way to handle that in that recent thread. Adding that as auxilory data is inferior becuase it gums of the privacy model.
1115 2012-09-10 18:54:07 <gmaxwell> If you're having a transaction then you _must_ already have a communications channel, so you can provide a refund address.
1116 2012-09-10 18:54:24 B0g4r7 has joined
1117 2012-09-10 18:55:18 <kakobrekla> seriously, how do i encrypt my wallet via gui on ubuntu
1118 2012-09-10 18:55:30 usagi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1119 2012-09-10 18:55:54 <gmaxwell> kakobrekla: did ubuntu's crazy gui move everything to the ubuntu button or something? (like mac?)
1120 2012-09-10 18:55:56 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: mmm... yes, if there's a secure communication channel between me and the entity I'm paying then that works. I think.
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1124 2012-09-10 18:56:53 <kakobrekla> http://shrani.si/f/3L/AU/3pn4rV5i/wtf.png
1125 2012-09-10 18:57:14 <kakobrekla> i dont know how to open settings :(
1126 2012-09-10 18:57:40 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if there wasn't you couldn't have gotten their address to pay to securely. And, even if you go down the 'but its one way' route, you could sign a message with all the input addresses in your txn and send a 'refund here for txn1234' via p2p network (if we allowed that), and still avoid adding any data in the blockchain.
1127 2012-09-10 18:58:09 <gmaxwell> (and I do think it's an excellent tradeoff to carry more p2p cruft, esp if nodes could opt out, in order to avoid the same cruft in the chain where it must be stored forever)
1128 2012-09-10 18:58:55 <gmaxwell> In the refund case you don't care if there could be multiple messages (non-uniqueness), since you can just pick any if they create more thain one.
1129 2012-09-10 18:59:02 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'm still worried about the "I sign transaction" .... time passes ... "I sign metadata" gap. Gaps like that are where protocols are broken.
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1131 2012-09-10 18:59:29 <gavinandresen> (and reversing the order of operations doesn't help)
1132 2012-09-10 18:59:30 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: then make a new on the wire transaction format that sends both as a unit but doesn't put the metadata in the blockchain.
1133 2012-09-10 19:00:32 <gmaxwell> Doing TXN metadata via p2p but not in the chain sounds like an excellent compromise to keep things out of the chain that don't really need to be in it. .. though meh on the privacy implications of doing this via p2p.. since you can't encrypt for the recipent only.
1134 2012-09-10 19:00:51 <gmaxwell> (unless we define a new address type that packs in a public key for messaging)
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1137 2012-09-10 19:02:09 <gmaxwell> (in that case it's easy, you do ECDH with the two public keys (one from a scriptsig and the one in the address) and use that to encrypt the extended-address, and privacy is preserved because you don't even mention what remote public key you're using)
1138 2012-09-10 19:02:34 <gmaxwell> (the extended address' pubkey wouldn't even be the same as the addresses' it would just be asscoiated)
1139 2012-09-10 19:02:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I don't see how an on-the-wire transaction format helps. If the transaction can be extracted separately from the metadata, then the transaction can be spent without the metadata being recorded anywhere... which is an attack I want to avoid.
1140 2012-09-10 19:02:49 <jgarzik> Ultimately there are use cases where the most natural, simple, reliable and secure method is to bundle the data and metadata together in a signed package. All these other solutions are more work and more complexity to achieve the same thing. So look at the long term programmer incentives, too...
1141 2012-09-10 19:02:52 <gmaxwell> sipa, if he were active right now, would point out that a simple direct payment protocol covers all this even more simply.
1142 2012-09-10 19:03:08 <justmoon> gavinandresen: I posted an idea here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108423.0
1143 2012-09-10 19:03:11 <gavinandresen> I agree 100% that we should implement a direct payment protocol.
1144 2012-09-10 19:03:33 <kakobrekla> gmaxwell, fuck yeah its on the top of the screen thanks
1145 2012-09-10 19:03:52 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: a metadata hash in the txn doesn't provide that 'you don't have the metadata' property eitherâ¦
1146 2012-09-10 19:04:04 <gmaxwell> er 'you must have the metadata'
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1148 2012-09-10 19:04:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the simplest thing is whatever is implemented already; otherwise there would be no talk of this blockchain gibberish. Working with the blockchain is by far one of the most complicated ways of doing messaging ever devised. It's 'easy' because the software is already there.
1149 2012-09-10 19:05:24 <gavinandresen> justmoon: ACK, reading...
1150 2012-09-10 19:06:05 <amiller> gmaxwell, this payment protocol that has a communications channel - it has to be an authenticated communications channel unless you have a hash in the blockchain
1151 2012-09-10 19:06:28 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea I thought of mentioning that above, and bytecoin (IIRC) has written a bunch about basically that. (ECDH pairing for pubkeys) but it prevents multisig, forces pubkey disclosure, etc.
1152 2012-09-10 19:07:02 <gmaxwell> amiller: no, it doesn't.
1153 2012-09-10 19:07:35 <gmaxwell> amiller: first (1) you already have one or your wouldn't have an address to pay to.. ignoring that (2) you sign the metadata with the same key that signed the transaction, so you know the author of the metadata is the same as the transaction.
1154 2012-09-10 19:08:05 <gmaxwell> amiller: which does leave the possiblity that you don't happen to recieve the metadata. Though thats also possible if the only thing in the chain is a metadata hash.
1155 2012-09-10 19:08:29 <gmaxwell> If you put the metadata directly in the chain, then we go down the slippery slope of large amounts of non-txn data...
1156 2012-09-10 19:09:01 <amiller> let me pick apart one of those
1157 2012-09-10 19:09:22 <gavinandresen> justmoon: nice, that works.
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1159 2012-09-10 19:10:16 <MC1984> you cant make slippery slope arguments, thats my job
1160 2012-09-10 19:10:19 <amiller> gmaxwell, gavin pointed out that the property you want for that metadata is that it's 'immutable', written once. You're saying you can replace that with 'identity' based cryptography and signatures
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1162 2012-09-10 19:10:24 <amiller> but it's not the same goal at all
1163 2012-09-10 19:10:35 <gmaxwell> amiller: Gavin gave an application. A refund address.
1164 2012-09-10 19:11:20 <gavinandresen> refund address may be a bad example. a multisig contract, with multiple parties committing to some contract language that can be independently verified is probably better.
1165 2012-09-10 19:12:19 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: you can use key agreement for that, like justmoon suggested. Effectively you make the hash of the contract part of (one of) the payment keys.
1166 2012-09-10 19:12:42 <gmaxwell> That doesn't work for multisig generally because you want the keys to all be secret from each other.. but the contract wouldn't be secret.
1167 2012-09-10 19:12:44 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: cool, so lets make that happen.
1168 2012-09-10 19:14:22 <gmaxwell> eroding my position somewhat, I should perhaps point out that using compressed public keys in scriptsig basically saves enough space to fit in a hash and still be the same size as a regular transaction.
1169 2012-09-10 19:15:41 <gmaxwell> (I'm generally much less negative about adding aux data in scriptsigs than scriptpubkeys; but still strongly of the view that we should be careful that we don't indirectly encourage bloating the chain out of ignorance or lazyness when superior non-bloating alternatives are possible; the choices we make here will have an impact for as long as bitcoin exists)
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1174 2012-09-10 19:16:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. most cases for "I want to attach data to a txn" don't require that the data be unique, only that it be provably from the same author of the txn, and most would strongly benefit from making that data private.
1175 2012-09-10 19:17:00 <amiller> gmaxwell, "forward integrity" is the reason why you shouldn't use a signature when what you really want is a hash
1176 2012-09-10 19:17:31 <gmaxwell> amiller: For the return address forward integrity is not required or even especially desirable.
1177 2012-09-10 19:18:09 <gmaxwell> and key agreement for contract terms gives you forward integrity. (the terms are effectively baked into the address the funds were sent to)
1178 2012-09-10 19:18:25 <gavinandresen> Well, if the merchant sends to the user-provided refund address they probably DO care about forward integrity, they don't want users to be able to claim "that's not MY refund address"
1179 2012-09-10 19:18:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: they have a copy of the data they used, so they can _prove_ to anyone that it was a valid return address.
1180 2012-09-10 19:19:30 <gmaxwell> "if you don't want the sender picking and choosing where they return, don't write multiple binding messages for a single transaction" ... besides, the problem exists even when its bound so long as the transactions happen before confirmation.
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1182 2012-09-10 19:20:04 <gmaxwell> E.g. you write two payments (a double spend), the recipents returns based on the first.. but the second is what actually ends up in the chain. (e.g. presuming they returned instantly because you sent the wrong amount)
1183 2012-09-10 19:20:09 <gavinandresen> ok, so lets say we go the key agreement route. What code do we need to write?
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1187 2012-09-10 19:23:01 <gmaxwell> An interface mostly. The key agreement itself is just multiplying two ECDSA points, which is just a call to the existing functions. The idea is that you have a message, which gets combined with an existing key.. which creates a new key/address. Anyone can perform the same operations, and to redeem you need the message.
1188 2012-09-10 19:23:24 <gmaxwell> I guess figuring out the interface would require fleshing out the application some.
1189 2012-09-10 19:23:34 <gavinandresen> right. So you're sending me bitcoins with some metadata. What does bitcoind on our two machines do?
1190 2012-09-10 19:24:03 <gavinandresen> (lets start getting specific about where the metadata is stored, how communication happens, etc)
1191 2012-09-10 19:24:59 <gavinandresen> I'm pushing because if we don't get a good solution, people will say "fuck it, here's an OP_DROP transaction with 800 bytes of metadata, I'll pay the frickin fee to Eligius and be done."
1192 2012-09-10 19:25:06 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: re reject reasons: how about reject(strReason, nDoS, strDebugLogDetails, â¦) ?
1193 2012-09-10 19:25:25 <amiller> gmaxwell, suppose i make a purchase using my hot-wallet address A, but I want my refund to go to cold-wallet address B, and my key for B is offline
1194 2012-09-10 19:25:35 <amiller> this is an example where forward integrity is crucial
1195 2012-09-10 19:25:41 <gmaxwell> amiller: ... no it isn't.
1196 2012-09-10 19:26:03 <amiller> what i want is that if my hot-wallet privkey A gets stolen, my refund is still safe at B
1197 2012-09-10 19:26:03 <gmaxwell> amiller: you sign with the key that makes the transaction, which is by definition online, thats how you know its bound.
1198 2012-09-10 19:26:23 <gmaxwell> Ah, interesting point.
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1200 2012-09-10 19:27:15 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I tell you about it, via some out of band channel (there are lots of choices), you addmetadataaddr address/pubkey "metadata" (or metadata hash). Keep in mind I said the keyagreemnt was useful for the contract case. I don't think it's the right thing for return addresses.
1201 2012-09-10 19:28:23 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: "fuck it, here's an OP_DROP transaction with 800 bytes of metadata," eligius won't mine that (or at least it won't if it happens more than once). And of course, avoiding the 'fuck it, I'll op_drop' is why I'm encouraging being very conservative in making op_drop standard... so people don't widely deploy features that depend on it in stupid ways.
1202 2012-09-10 19:28:49 <gmaxwell> A single party making an effort to peer with or agree with a miner isn't a big deal. Blockchain.info just putting it into their webclient is.
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1204 2012-09-10 19:31:36 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ok. A concrete straw-man proposal is what I'm looking for.
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1207 2012-09-10 19:34:05 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: For which application, though? We need to be concrete about the application first, because different applications have different ideal solutions.
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1209 2012-09-10 19:36:39 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'd say the applications that we've already seen people hacking around: providing a refund address if you're using a shared wallet. And attaching a public message to a transaction.
1210 2012-09-10 19:37:31 <jgarzik> attaching a hash to a transaction
1211 2012-09-10 19:37:34 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'd like it to be generic enough that lots of interesting applications can be built, like private messages between sender and receiver.
1212 2012-09-10 19:38:05 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ... and I think those interesting applications CAN be built if we can get an immutable hash attached to a transaction, as jgarzik says
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1214 2012-09-10 19:39:19 <gavinandresen> (e.g. private message from receiver back to sender can easily be done if the metadata includes my public gpg key and, maybe, my email address)
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1216 2012-09-10 19:39:42 <gavinandresen> (private message the other way can be done if we've got a payment protocol so I get the recipients public key, etc etc)
1217 2012-09-10 19:39:45 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: That doesn't work unless you have a cannel to get the metadata to the other end. If you have that you can just send the same metadata signed with the scriptsig's keys.
1218 2012-09-10 19:40:22 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: hmm? gpg key plus email address is enough to send me a private message.
1219 2012-09-10 19:41:04 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: encrypt that bit of metadata with the recipient's public key and that opens up secure, private communication
1220 2012-09-10 19:41:38 <gmaxwell> You don't have the recipents public key, not with any existing address type.
1221 2012-09-10 19:41:49 <gavinandresen> right, I agree we need a payment protocol.
1222 2012-09-10 19:42:29 <gmaxwell> And what did this buy? If instead you have a minor addition to signmessage that lets you pick a transaction as the 'address' to sign with, you can use that same communication channel to do the binding.
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1224 2012-09-10 19:43:04 <gmaxwell> And it's been widely used for thisâ it's how eligius updates user preferences.
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1228 2012-09-10 19:43:51 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: as amiller says, it buys forward integrity
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1230 2012-09-10 19:45:18 <gmaxwell> which doesn't matter for any of the example applications, ± amiller's refund address, but the binding doesn't buy forward integrity in what is probably the most common refund caseâ zero confirm refundsâ which will only become more common as confirmation times increase.
1231 2012-09-10 19:45:47 <jgarzik> it rather nicely ties together bond and payment ;p
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1235 2012-09-10 19:46:18 <gmaxwell> (And you can use the key agreement for forward integrity where required)
1236 2012-09-10 19:46:45 <gmaxwell> As far as how that works, you'd have an addkey function that takes an existing address/pubkey and the message that you're binding.
1237 2012-09-10 19:46:57 <gmaxwell> The sender would send to pubkey+message.
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1239 2012-09-10 19:47:28 <gavinandresen> ... and somehow tell the recipient message. Lets figure out the somehow.
1240 2012-09-10 19:47:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: you have to have a communication channel in the committed case too. There isn't any escaping that.
1241 2012-09-10 19:48:14 <gavinandresen> Right, that's the hard bit that is making people use the blockchain as the communication channel. Lets fix that.
1242 2012-09-10 19:48:40 <gmaxwell> It's either a payment protocol or something p2p. In the case of the key-agreement, you have the recipents pubkey, so we can actually do the p2p securely.
1243 2012-09-10 19:49:36 <amiller> gmaxwell, it's okay to handwave over a p2p thing if the p2p thing consists strictly of: get(hash(x)) -> x
1244 2012-09-10 19:49:57 <gavinandresen> Ok, so do we do the payment protocol first or the p2p? p2p has the advantage of working if you're firewalled.
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1246 2012-09-10 19:50:14 <gmaxwell> So, I think sipa would keep pointing to a payment protocol. But to be honest here, there are just too many bitcoin users who want to particpate at arms length with criminal activities and won't directly connect to anyone.
1247 2012-09-10 19:50:22 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/pybond does P2P :)
1248 2012-09-10 19:51:02 <gavinandresen> p2p disadvantage is DoS vulnerability... are there any other advantages/disadvantages ?
1249 2012-09-10 19:51:10 <gmaxwell> I think both should be done. But I think only p2p will get sufficent adoption in terms of deflecting people from blockchain storage.
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1253 2012-09-10 19:52:27 <gmaxwell> If the p2p goes hand in hand with our existing transactions it could be made dos resistant that way. E.g. each p2p push requires a valid transaction going with it. (identified by a common pubkey in the message and scriptsig)
1254 2012-09-10 19:54:42 <gmaxwell> I think the p2p might look like... flooded, with filtering by leaf nodes. and the message would be txid:in_point, dest pubkeyhash, Encrypt(message, ecdh(destpubkey,txid:in_point's first pubkey))
1255 2012-09-10 19:54:43 <justmoon> the scheme I described could be extended where you calculate q = HASH(E(M)) and then send to P_Q_ = P_M_ * q, give the DHT node P_M_ and E(M) and it will know that the ciphertext you've given it is associated with that transaction
1256 2012-09-10 19:55:06 <justmoon> E() is an encryption function based on ECDH presumably
1257 2012-09-10 19:55:15 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: cool, that's the type of concrete straw-man-proposal I was hoping to see
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1259 2012-09-10 19:55:33 <gmaxwell> (If someone wants to talk about a DHT, be my guest, but I'm less clear how to make it robust and reliable as blockchain communications)
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1261 2012-09-10 19:56:41 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: so before I send you bitcoins, I need your full public key. So either there's a new type of bitcoin address or a payment protocol for that.
1262 2012-09-10 19:57:05 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: right, you need a pubkey for this. I don't know a way around that. :(
1263 2012-09-10 19:57:30 <gmaxwell> you can do things without it, but not encrypted things, and not forward integrity.
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1265 2012-09-10 19:57:49 <justmoon> well, if we assume a DHT the mapping pubkeyhash -> pubkey could be stored in there, it could also be part of the blockchain if the address has been used before
1266 2012-09-10 19:57:51 <gmaxwell> I think any proposal that uses public communications for metadata is very important to have encrypted for legal stupidity: I really don't want someone's explicit drug transaction memos in cleartext on my disk.
1267 2012-09-10 19:58:13 <justmoon> gmaxwell: agreed
1268 2012-09-10 19:58:14 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: well, I think we should move to hierarchical determistic keys anyway, so either there's a new bitcoin address for those or a payment protocol for those....
1269 2012-09-10 19:58:41 <gmaxwell> justmoon: we should not generally encourage address reuse, and really what I'd prefer is an address that has a regular [hash address, p2sh, etc]+pubkey and the pubkey is only used for messaging.
1270 2012-09-10 19:59:00 <justmoon> gmaxwell: the address won't be reused
1271 2012-09-10 19:59:12 <gmaxwell> justmoon: that was in reference to "it could also be part of the blockchain"
1272 2012-09-10 19:59:22 <justmoon> my point stands
1273 2012-09-10 19:59:27 <gmaxwell> But in general we don't want to break people's p2sh multisign security just to get messages.
1274 2012-09-10 19:59:38 <justmoon> sure, that's true
1275 2012-09-10 19:59:55 <justmoon> although I would say, it's not impossible that there will be shared secret based multisig
1276 2012-09-10 20:00:44 <gmaxwell> but we don't have to. The address could be a payment address plus a pubkey for the messages. It could also potentially be encoded in a URL for direct payments.
1277 2012-09-10 20:00:58 <justmoon> as for "no address reuse" - what I suggested is using the address once to "initialize it" the actual transactions are later dependent on the metadata hash, as long as that's hard to guess the transactions can't be associated with the address
1278 2012-09-10 20:01:21 <gmaxwell> justmoon: you are not helping my goal of not adding excess immortal data to the blockchain. :P
1279 2012-09-10 20:01:42 <justmoon> true
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1282 2012-09-10 20:02:18 <gmaxwell> and not exposing the pubkey has security properties that I'd rather not break. (it makes bitcoin have a degree of resistance to high complexity ECDSA breaks)
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1285 2012-09-10 20:04:21 <justmoon> the pubkey that is actually used to send money wouldn't be exposed
1286 2012-09-10 20:04:31 <justmoon> until the money is respent of course
1287 2012-09-10 20:04:58 <justmoon> I'm starting to talk about several different schemes now though
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1289 2012-09-10 20:05:38 <justmoon> this statement was regarding the version where the pubkey is communicated to the sender via some private channel
1290 2012-09-10 20:06:00 <gmaxwell> justmoon: Ah I follow. Still fails for "why the @#$ are you adding monetary irrelevant immortal data to the chain, for what is really an ephemeral communication"
1291 2012-09-10 20:07:08 <justmoon> agreed
1292 2012-09-10 20:07:27 <justmoon> maybe the solution lies with the aliases type proposals
1293 2012-09-10 20:07:47 <gmaxwell> justmoon: Why don't you like just embedding the data in an 'address'?
1294 2012-09-10 20:08:12 <gmaxwell> other than, I suppose, the addresses getting a big long.
1295 2012-09-10 20:08:17 <gmaxwell> s/big/bit/
1296 2012-09-10 20:08:41 <justmoon> I'm personally fine with that, was just brainstorming if we can avoid introducing a new address type
1297 2012-09-10 20:09:19 <justmoon> @aliases: those proposals aimed at hiding long ugly bitcoin address from the end user, what is the current opinion on those proposals?
1298 2012-09-10 20:09:23 <Eliel> hmm... there could be an universal return address scheme based on justmoon's idea. use the txid of the transaction to be returned to create a return address with the pubkeys used to sign the transaction originally.
1299 2012-09-10 20:10:50 <gmaxwell> Eliel: no better than sending to that address.
1300 2012-09-10 20:11:02 <gmaxwell> (Except perhaps you know what is being returned...)
1301 2012-09-10 20:11:25 <gmaxwell> the case it solve there is, e.g. a shared wallet.
1302 2012-09-10 20:11:29 <Eliel> gmaxwell: it is, even mixing webwallets can then easily detect whose money is coming in.
1303 2012-09-10 20:11:39 <gmaxwell> oh.
1304 2012-09-10 20:11:41 <gmaxwell> point!
1305 2012-09-10 20:11:55 <gmaxwell> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
1306 2012-09-10 20:12:08 <Eliel> they can even add an invisible deposit address on each send to the user.
1307 2012-09-10 20:12:13 <Eliel> for the return
1308 2012-09-10 20:12:26 <Eliel> and that's all it'd take
1309 2012-09-10 20:13:03 <gmaxwell> that has an elegance to it for sure!
1310 2012-09-10 20:13:07 <justmoon> I'll leave you guys to it, good night all!
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1312 2012-09-10 20:13:15 <gavinandresen> Eliel: good idea.
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1315 2012-09-10 20:16:04 <gmaxwell> Eliel: makes it really really important to make txids non-malleable.
1316 2012-09-10 20:16:16 <Eliel> aren't they already?
1317 2012-09-10 20:16:26 <gmaxwell> No. :'(
1318 2012-09-10 20:16:34 <gmaxwell> we're slowly working on that.
1319 2012-09-10 20:16:44 <Eliel> ah, then it should be based on only the parts of the tx that are.
1320 2012-09-10 20:17:02 <gavinandresen> Instead of using the txid could use hash(transaction with input scriptSigs emptied)
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1322 2012-09-10 20:18:34 <BlueMatt> need to think about clearing scriptPubKeys for non-SIGHASH_ALL
1323 2012-09-10 20:20:03 <Eliel> it'll need some careful thinking how to do it with multisig or multiparty txs I guess :)
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1327 2012-09-10 20:22:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: true.
1328 2012-09-10 20:23:08 <gmaxwell> Eliel: yea, thats one problem with implicit behavior.
1329 2012-09-10 20:23:16 <gmaxwell> And there are multiparty txn in the chain now.
1330 2012-09-10 20:23:29 <gmaxwell> (I've been making them with people, if no one else)
1331 2012-09-10 20:23:43 <gavinandresen> "I sent you the refund" "I never got it" "What version are you running?" .... is the other problem with added implicit behavior
1332 2012-09-10 20:24:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: txn version... to flag it?
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1334 2012-09-10 20:24:58 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yeah, could do... although the "please send any refunds to my cold wallet" is nice feature if it is explicit
1335 2012-09-10 20:26:01 <gmaxwell> yes, though much better if that address is encrypted.
1336 2012-09-10 20:26:37 <gmaxwell> which then goes back to that sketch of what we were talking about above.
1337 2012-09-10 20:27:06 wood has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1338 2012-09-10 20:27:25 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes. What do we still need to figure out to make the sketch a reality?
1339 2012-09-10 20:28:09 freakazoid has joined
1340 2012-09-10 20:28:24 <gmaxwell> whats an accepeable way to encode these extended addresses that have a [normal addr][pubkey][perhaps some optinal flags like how much you should [ay] e.g. payment protocol lite.
1341 2012-09-10 20:28:57 <Eliel> also, an added bonus for this implicit method is that you can get nice statistics about how often funds get returned :)
1342 2012-09-10 20:29:22 <gmaxwell> Eliel: thats bad not good. hurts privacy.
1343 2012-09-10 20:29:38 ThomasV has joined
1344 2012-09-10 20:29:39 <gmaxwell> perhaps acceptable but not a good thing.
1345 2012-09-10 20:30:31 Diapolo has left ()
1346 2012-09-10 20:31:09 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: it feels like HD wallets aught to be used-- e.g. I get a public key + chaincode, then send payment to that address M and encode metadata with M/something ...
1347 2012-09-10 20:32:24 <phantomcircuit> HD Wallets?
1348 2012-09-10 20:32:26 <gmaxwell> right, this is really a special case of hdwallets... where the chaincode is replaced or suplimented by the message hash. Oh crap. right the forward integrity isnt compatible with p2sh outputs.
1349 2012-09-10 20:32:32 <phantomcircuit> feels like dirty advertising
1350 2012-09-10 20:32:34 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
1351 2012-09-10 20:32:39 <phantomcircuit> should rename bitcoin HD MONEY!!
1352 2012-09-10 20:32:46 <gmaxwell> e.g. we can do messages + any payment address but no forward integrity.
1353 2012-09-10 20:33:06 <gmaxwell> or forward integrity but it must be a pay to address. (or pubkey, I suppose)
1354 2012-09-10 20:33:07 <phantomcircuit> neat
1355 2012-09-10 20:33:27 <gmaxwell> will need to ponder a bit.
1356 2012-09-10 20:35:11 <phantomcircuit> thought
1357 2012-09-10 20:35:21 <phantomcircuit> why define the branching logic like this
1358 2012-09-10 20:35:35 <phantomcircuit> instead of simply having a new chain and having the client handle that?
1359 2012-09-10 20:36:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: as a way to hand off branches without invalidating backups. also to just formally define what is possible... I don't know that we'd bother implementing creating all those cases.
1360 2012-09-10 20:37:05 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1361 2012-09-10 20:37:11 <phantomcircuit> i guess that would be useful
1362 2012-09-10 20:37:34 kiceek has joined
1363 2012-09-10 20:37:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. it would be useful to give a pubkey branch to anyone who is paying you often.
1364 2012-09-10 20:39:51 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1365 2012-09-10 20:40:05 <jgarzik> amiller: any luck with httpsrv replacements?
1366 2012-09-10 20:41:21 Clipse has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1368 2012-09-10 20:46:40 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1369 2012-09-10 20:47:22 jdnavarro has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1370 2012-09-10 20:48:05 <Eliel> what's the average size of a transaction?
1371 2012-09-10 20:48:28 <Eliel> ah, nevermind, blockexplorer knows
1372 2012-09-10 20:48:28 wonderous has joined
1373 2012-09-10 20:49:55 <Eliel> except it doesn't work :/
1374 2012-09-10 20:53:05 rlifchitz has joined
1375 2012-09-10 20:53:06 rlifchitz has quit (Changing host)
1376 2012-09-10 20:53:06 rlifchitz has joined
1377 2012-09-10 20:54:09 <gmaxwell> Eliel: a 1 in 2 out from a coinbase is something like 192 bytes.
1378 2012-09-10 20:54:21 dlb76 has joined
1379 2012-09-10 20:54:45 <gmaxwell> this is why I'm spazzy about adding 'just' 64 bytes of transaction irrelevant opdrop. It's a 1/3rd increase.
1380 2012-09-10 20:58:59 <gmaxwell> 226 for spending from a compressed pubkey keyhash.
1381 2012-09-10 20:59:48 <gmaxwell> obviously it's smaller with one output.
1382 2012-09-10 20:59:58 asoltys has quit (Quit: leaving)
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1385 2012-09-10 21:02:16 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1386 2012-09-10 21:03:58 <gmaxwell> (and if the op_drop is in the scriptpubkey thats 64 bytes op_drop added on top of ~22 bytes of txout set)
1387 2012-09-10 21:05:44 <gmaxwell> so for a future txout tree full mode we're talking about something like 2.5x the storage (ignoring overhead) if OP_DROP in pubkeys were used in half the ouputs.
1388 2012-09-10 21:06:22 xisalty has joined
1389 2012-09-10 21:06:43 <gmaxwell> almost 5x if used in all outputs.
1390 2012-09-10 21:07:39 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: by the by, sipa's leveldb ultraprune branch does indeed load the entire blockchain inside of about 3 hours on my slow machines.
1391 2012-09-10 21:08:11 <helo> single core?
1392 2012-09-10 21:08:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: off network?
1393 2012-09-10 21:08:29 <midnightmagic> quad-core, from a -connect=n.n.n.n
1394 2012-09-10 21:08:38 <midnightmagic> (LAN address)
1395 2012-09-10 21:08:44 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: were you testing the threaded version?
1396 2012-09-10 21:09:23 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: whats slow about that quad core?
1397 2012-09-10 21:09:25 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Not unless it's threaded by default as of commitid 81cca96a8c14c93000f32b5186ccd94e1fe9831a (Sep 4)
1398 2012-09-10 21:09:46 <gmaxwell> yea no, thats not threaded.
1399 2012-09-10 21:09:47 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: It takes something like 2 days to rebuild normally
1400 2012-09-10 21:10:03 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: 0_o .. drum memory?
1401 2012-09-10 21:10:07 <gmaxwell> punchcard disk?
1402 2012-09-10 21:10:18 <jrmithdobbs> haha
1403 2012-09-10 21:10:25 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: lol I've been telling you about this for like 9 months or something now turkey
1404 2012-09-10 21:10:31 <jrmithdobbs> is it a quad prescott?
1405 2012-09-10 21:10:47 <midnightmagic> it is a.. AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 965 Processor
1406 2012-09-10 21:10:54 <gmaxwell> I did 6 full syncs while testing the BIP30 stuff in here the other day.
1407 2012-09-10 21:11:19 <jrmithdobbs> ya i did a full sync to an e3 2650 in <6 hours over internet the other day
1408 2012-09-10 21:11:28 <jrmithdobbs> which is pretty comporable hardware when aes isn't involved
1409 2012-09-10 21:11:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it's really not as painful as it used to be âº
1410 2012-09-10 21:12:00 <jrmithdobbs> nah, it's gotten *much* better so long as you don't get unlucky and pick a pad peer, and if you do you just restart
1411 2012-09-10 21:12:28 drazak_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1412 2012-09-10 21:12:54 <Luke-Jr> hmm, my TNIAB setup doesn't like master :/
1413 2012-09-10 21:13:09 <Luke-Jr> nm, bad luck I guess
1414 2012-09-10 21:13:13 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: whats the storage? my fast syncs are tmpfs. :P
1415 2012-09-10 21:13:24 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: find a peer you can trust to -connect or -addseed with speeds it up tremendously as well
1416 2012-09-10 21:13:27 <gmaxwell> though it's nowhere near that on disk either.
1417 2012-09-10 21:13:42 <jrmithdobbs> (don't even need to trust that it has anything but assloads of bandwidth up to the checkpoint!)
1418 2012-09-10 21:13:44 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I don't have enough empty space for tmpfs, storage is just a single SATA2 7200 blah blah 500GB
1419 2012-09-10 21:14:01 <gmaxwell> hm. what OS/fs?
1420 2012-09-10 21:14:07 <midnightmagic> jrmithdobbs: I run like 10 bitcoind inside my network now, so all I need to do is pick one of them to sync from.
1421 2012-09-10 21:14:09 wonderous has quit ()
1422 2012-09-10 21:14:35 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: nah man, that e3 box is openbsd, slowest/most non-existant fs cache in a modern os and it still took <6 hours (I want to say <4 but I *know* it was less than 6)
1423 2012-09-10 21:14:41 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Linux, Ubuntu 10.10, ext4.
1424 2012-09-10 21:14:51 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but it's disk is an intel 320 so ...
1425 2012-09-10 21:15:22 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: So that's kernel 2.6.35-22-server in x86_64 mode.
1426 2012-09-10 21:15:47 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: did you try it with -connect= to see if that improved it?
1427 2012-09-10 21:15:52 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: so I have a quad core old core2 @2.8ghz with a 7200rpm 2tb raid1 disk... synced last time (About a month ago in a few hours)
1428 2012-09-10 21:15:58 <midnightmagic> jrmithdobbs: That's the only thing I use to rebuild.
1429 2012-09-10 21:16:01 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: also, use -printtoconsole or explicitly set the log to be on a different disk
1430 2012-09-10 21:16:10 <midnightmagic> jesus raid1 and you're faster than I am?
1431 2012-09-10 21:16:12 <midnightmagic> grr
1432 2012-09-10 21:16:22 <jrmithdobbs> (-printtoconsole is the only thing I can think I did much different than "normal")
1433 2012-09-10 21:16:38 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: what libdb version do you have?
1434 2012-09-10 21:16:50 <jrmithdobbs> using 4.8.30 on mine, for comparison
1435 2012-09-10 21:16:56 <midnightmagic> lemme check. 4.7
1436 2012-09-10 21:17:18 <midnightmagic> hrm. I just noticed something..
1437 2012-09-10 21:17:29 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: apt-get install lidb48 or w/e the name is
1438 2012-09-10 21:17:48 <midnightmagic> it's *possible* the cpus were throttled back.
1439 2012-09-10 21:17:59 pusle has quit ()
1440 2012-09-10 21:18:22 <jrmithdobbs> how much? it was only consuming about 40% (average) of a single core for IBD for me
1441 2012-09-10 21:18:45 <midnightmagic> the cpuinfo reports 800MHz
1442 2012-09-10 21:18:48 <jrmithdobbs> LOL
1443 2012-09-10 21:19:00 drazak_ has joined
1444 2012-09-10 21:19:06 <midnightmagic> I'm trying to determine whether it stays that slow and crappy during heavy load
1445 2012-09-10 21:21:00 <midnightmagic> I mean it's not a huge deal, which is why I haven't really bothered to try to fix it. It's just a miner, unimportant in the long run so long as the gpu hashrates are there..
1446 2012-09-10 21:21:18 kiceek has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1447 2012-09-10 21:22:16 <jrmithdobbs> midnightmagic: on my core2 macbook air with FDE with the blockchain (and everything bitcoin related) going into a aes256 disk image *on top of* that, it still takes <18 hours (and it's all bdb thrashing through the disk layers)
1448 2012-09-10 21:22:30 <midnightmagic> sigh
1449 2012-09-10 21:22:46 <midnightmagic> your experience is pretty much universal, that much I'm certain of.
1450 2012-09-10 21:22:59 <midnightmagic> "faster than me"
1451 2012-09-10 21:23:12 <midnightmagic> er.. "faster than I"
1452 2012-09-10 21:27:30 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1453 2012-09-10 21:34:46 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1454 2012-09-10 21:36:09 TD has joined
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1456 2012-09-10 21:41:27 bitcoinz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1458 2012-09-10 21:43:58 bitcoinz has joined
1459 2012-09-10 21:55:35 <md2k7> why does pwalletMain->GetKey(id, key) return false on me? id came from CBitcoinAddress.GetKeyID(), which got an address I received coins to
1460 2012-09-10 21:56:03 <md2k7> does that make sense or am I doing sth the wrong way?
1461 2012-09-10 21:56:42 rdponticelli has joined
1462 2012-09-10 21:59:04 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1463 2012-09-10 21:59:07 <md2k7> http://pastebin.com/LSxbQ6Y6
1464 2012-09-10 21:59:40 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1465 2012-09-10 22:02:38 <amiller> jgarzik, nah i got distracted, i'll probably do it tonight and show you tomorrow morning
1466 2012-09-10 22:08:02 osmosis has joined
1467 2012-09-10 22:08:02 <sipa> amiller: the wallet is encrypted, maybe?
1468 2012-09-10 22:08:29 gjs278 has joined
1469 2012-09-10 22:08:37 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: my record for full blockchain sync is 22 minutes :)
1470 2012-09-10 22:11:16 <sipa> eh
1471 2012-09-10 22:11:19 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1472 2012-09-10 22:11:24 <sipa> md2k7: ^ wallet is encrypted?
1473 2012-09-10 22:14:15 jurov is now known as jurov|away
1474 2012-09-10 22:14:43 <md2k7> sipa: nope
1475 2012-09-10 22:15:36 <md2k7> I'm currently printing out keys I have via pwalletMain->GetKeys(), trying to figure out how to get a bitcoin address from a CPubKey
1476 2012-09-10 22:15:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, RAID1 conventional hdds block chain sync is ~24 hours
1477 2012-09-10 22:16:39 <Luke-Jr> [22:09:44] <Luke-Jr> block?
1478 2012-09-10 22:16:40 <Luke-Jr> [22:09:49] <ljrbot> Blk 000000000000022195d05b0bc9ceac7e13bed1c6e1537dca98c5d7bda5f5f78a: 13q2MtmDwa5SDq35dYmYcWNiJqirfYemYu 7.38471585 BTC, 1Lyx1ggKx2SxbFHkQhtZeEmvvc2fCMFjfs 6.44149297 BTC, 18oh1W4a3WpybAW8CCnBqSVgKBdjgQULr2 6.37240763 BTC, 18rCekv2MYpuZM6tfuj58sq8Z4gyeQz
1479 2012-09-10 22:16:42 <Luke-Jr> fwiw
1480 2012-09-10 22:17:21 <sipa> phantomcircuit: that was with leveldb, ultraprune, a checkpoint at 193k, and parallel sig checking
1481 2012-09-10 22:17:32 <phantomcircuit> ah
1482 2012-09-10 22:17:34 <phantomcircuit> heh
1483 2012-09-10 22:17:57 <phantomcircuit> it takes about an hour to restart the intersango hotwallet at this point
1484 2012-09-10 22:18:05 <sipa> :o
1485 2012-09-10 22:18:08 <phantomcircuit> double that for rescan
1486 2012-09-10 22:19:15 <sipa> md2k7: CBitcoinAddress(pubkey.GetID()).ToString()
1487 2012-09-10 22:20:10 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: kill -9 seems safe a minute after normal kill
1488 2012-09-10 22:20:24 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ?
1489 2012-09-10 22:20:40 <phantomcircuit> no it really does take that long to load the wallet
1490 2012-09-10 22:20:47 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1491 2012-09-10 22:20:51 <md2k7> sipa: thx
1492 2012-09-10 22:20:54 <sipa> how large is that wallet?
1493 2012-09-10 22:20:56 <phantomcircuit> the wallet operations aren't nearly as optimized as other things
1494 2012-09-10 22:20:59 <phantomcircuit> sipa, monster
1495 2012-09-10 22:21:06 <phantomcircuit> like
1496 2012-09-10 22:21:18 <phantomcircuit> every transaction causes a wallet flush
1497 2012-09-10 22:21:22 <phantomcircuit> which takes like 2-3 seconds
1498 2012-09-10 22:21:23 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1499 2012-09-10 22:21:23 <sipa> yeah
1500 2012-09-10 22:21:34 <Luke-Jr> my wallet is 1,697 txns
1501 2012-09-10 22:21:45 <Luke-Jr> and I only noticed a slowdown with the old pre-optimized coin control
1502 2012-09-10 22:21:49 <TD> flushing a bdb is just supposed to fsync the log file, no? why would that take several seconds?
1503 2012-09-10 22:21:56 <Luke-Jr> TD: fsync is slow
1504 2012-09-10 22:22:03 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1505 2012-09-10 22:22:04 <TD> yeah but how often does the wallet mutate?
1506 2012-09-10 22:22:08 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, this is uh
1507 2012-09-10 22:22:10 <Luke-Jr> TD: on Linux, it basically waits for *everything* writing to finish
1508 2012-09-10 22:22:12 <phantomcircuit> significantly more than that
1509 2012-09-10 22:22:17 <sipa> TD: i think it does fsync the log + checkpoint
1510 2012-09-10 22:23:30 * TD wonders how many transactions you can stuff into a protobuf wallet before it enters a performance death spiral
1511 2012-09-10 22:24:39 <sipa> probably close to the same number as the satoshi bdb wallet
1512 2012-09-10 22:24:45 <sipa> and that is pathetic
1513 2012-09-10 22:24:55 <TD> well, my code rewrites the entire wallet each time :)
1514 2012-09-10 22:25:06 <TD> that said, i have no idea how much work bdb does under the hood
1515 2012-09-10 22:25:31 <TD> satoshidice hosts its wallet in an amazon distributed database :)
1516 2012-09-10 22:25:31 <sipa> that's why it's pathetic that the bdb wallets would offer close to the same performance
1517 2012-09-10 22:25:35 <TD> hah
1518 2012-09-10 22:26:19 <phantomcircuit> Flushed wallet.dat 6895ms
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1520 2012-09-10 22:26:40 <TD> yeah that's not great
1521 2012-09-10 22:26:43 <Diablo-D3> hey TD
1522 2012-09-10 22:26:51 <Diablo-D3> do you know any android people?
1523 2012-09-10 22:27:09 <TD> some
1524 2012-09-10 22:27:21 rdponticelli has joined
1525 2012-09-10 22:27:35 <TD> why?
1526 2012-09-10 22:27:38 <Diablo-D3> can you ask them if they'll ever support dvi usb dongles? (the fake 2D video cards in a dongle shit)
1527 2012-09-10 22:28:05 <TD> probably not
1528 2012-09-10 22:28:12 <TD> even if they had such plans, they'd be confidential
1529 2012-09-10 22:28:27 <md2k7> sipa: mhm, I don't know how I came up with that address but seems like it really isn't contained in my wallet
1530 2012-09-10 22:28:32 <Diablo-D3> meh, I wish google had mandated hdmi out on all android devices
1531 2012-09-10 22:29:37 * Luke-Jr wonders who keeps sendmanying TBCs
1532 2012-09-10 22:30:04 <TD> mandates aren't great for competition ...
1533 2012-09-10 22:30:19 <TD> android dominates both low and high end for a reason
1534 2012-09-10 22:30:29 <Luke-Jr> Google should mandate hardware keyboards!
1535 2012-09-10 22:31:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but whats wrong with hdmi everywhere?
1536 2012-09-10 22:32:29 <Luke-Jr> nobody uses HDMI?
1537 2012-09-10 22:32:40 <Luke-Jr> it provides nothing useful over DVI
1538 2012-09-10 22:32:55 <Luke-Jr> and is being replaced already
1539 2012-09-10 22:34:27 Maccer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1540 2012-09-10 22:36:14 daboolez has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1541 2012-09-10 22:36:23 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: I think Diablo-D3 means the physical connector, not the protocol.
1542 2012-09-10 22:36:45 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: which is AFAIK the main complaint people have with HDMI?
1543 2012-09-10 22:36:55 <Diablo-D3> I have Luke-Jr on ignore
1544 2012-09-10 22:36:59 ThomasV has joined
1545 2012-09-10 22:37:51 md2k7 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1549 2012-09-10 22:53:16 grondilu has joined
1550 2012-09-10 22:53:38 <grondilu> the test network still uses IRC to bootstrap, doesn't it?
1551 2012-09-10 22:57:21 <gmaxwell> grondilu: yes.
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1556 2012-09-10 23:04:52 <grondilu> gmaxwell: ok
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1560 2012-09-10 23:07:53 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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1563 2012-09-10 23:18:11 <doublec> Luke-Jr: +1 on hardware keyboards. It's sad they're disappearing.
1564 2012-09-10 23:19:36 ThomasV has joined
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1567 2012-09-10 23:40:55 <osmosis> i need a link to the ubuntu PPA that cointains the bitcoin dbc++ dependency.
1568 2012-09-10 23:41:27 <osmosis> ok, found it.. https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
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