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  44 2012-09-14 01:20:43 <whitenissan> does anyone have any idea why bitcoins that i know have been sent have not been recieved in 8 hours?
  45 2012-09-14 01:21:17 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: how are you defining recieved? and how many confirmations do you see for the tx?
  46 2012-09-14 01:22:32 <whitenissan> well what happened is my bitcoin wallet kept having problems over and over and over. eventually the only way to fix it was to delete wallet.dat and get bitcoins sent to the new address.
  47 2012-09-14 01:22:48 <whitenissan> I have ordered bitcoins off the site multiple times, with no problems
  48 2012-09-14 01:24:04 ErnestoJuarell has joined
  49 2012-09-14 01:24:08 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: er. if you're having to delete your wallet then something is ver wrong.
  50 2012-09-14 01:24:16 <gmaxwell> er very
  51 2012-09-14 01:25:22 <whitenissan> well it was crashing. then I deleted everything but wallet.dat because that's the only fix i could find on the forums, so after that it worked but before it even confirmed my bitcoins it would crash
  52 2012-09-14 01:25:53 <whitenissan> so I came on here, and someone gave me the great idea to delete wallet.dat saying i wouldnt lose my bitcoins...
  53 2012-09-14 01:26:01 <midnightmagic> lol troll?
  54 2012-09-14 01:26:20 <whitenissan> already out 400 dollars there, now another 300 for the ones i just bought.
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  56 2012-09-14 01:29:50 <whitenissan> I feel like 90% of the people in this chat shouldnt be, and the ones that should be are AFK so they can't help anyone.
  57 2012-09-14 01:30:08 <gmaxwell> I'm currently searching my logs to see what happened before.
  58 2012-09-14 01:30:36 <midnightmagic> wauugh brutal denisx didn't clarify after spoonfeeding you
  59 2012-09-14 01:31:46 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: jesus. okay. your previously deleted bitcoins may not be unrecoverable.
  60 2012-09-14 01:31:48 <midnightmagic> whitenissan: Sorry for the troll comment. There are a lot of them that come in here causing trouble with problems similar to yours. Please accept my apologies.
  61 2012-09-14 01:32:13 <midnightmagic> "here" being IRC in general.
  62 2012-09-14 01:32:18 <whitenissan> i'm more worried about the ones i just ordered
  63 2012-09-14 01:32:32 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: how many blocks does your client say it has?
  64 2012-09-14 01:33:03 <whitenissan> currently says 98k remaining
  65 2012-09-14 01:33:12 <gmaxwell> oh well thats why you don't see them. Expected.
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  67 2012-09-14 01:33:27 <whitenissan> but usually when it has low blocks the bitcoins would say unconfirmed, am i wrong?
  68 2012-09-14 01:33:33 <gmaxwell> Now before you do anything else, shut down, and make a backup of wallet.dat to external media.
  69 2012-09-14 01:33:44 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  70 2012-09-14 01:33:51 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: no it won't show it at all if the blocks the coin is based on have not been accepted yet.
  71 2012-09-14 01:34:07 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: and then you should run this tool: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25091.0
  72 2012-09-14 01:34:26 <BlueMatt> arg...my ecdsa impl may be 5x faster than bouncycastle, but its still 5x slower than hal's openssl-based ecdsa and 4x slower than stock openssl...
  73 2012-09-14 01:34:40 <gmaxwell> which will make a wallet file with everything on your harddrive that looks like a bitcoin private key; which may recover what you lost.
  74 2012-09-14 01:35:14 <BlueMatt> either I'm missing something obvious, or the openjdk jit isnt as good as it should be...
  75 2012-09-14 01:36:10 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: what denisx _meant_ was that he was asking if you've tried moving the wallet.dat out of the way. E.g. not deleting it. I'm sorry I wasn't around at that second.. usually when anyone mentions doing anything with anything the advice is backup backup backup before anything.
  76 2012-09-14 01:36:32 <midnightmagic> whitenissan: Your wallet.dat contains your keys: bitcoin uses that information to determine whether bitcoins are yours or not. Therefore, your wallet is the most important file you have. Don't delete it. And don't listen to anyone who seems to be telling you to delete it.
  77 2012-09-14 01:36:35 eb3kk has joined
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  79 2012-09-14 01:37:24 <gmaxwell> the message you were getting was because your wallet.dat was corrupted, probably as a result of deleting the database/ directory while they wallet was either actively being written or immediatly after bitcoin crashed while writing to the wallet.
  80 2012-09-14 01:37:28 <whitenissan> I have absolutely no idea why i never checked this before, but i found it in the recycle bin. so i made a backup of the one I got the bitcoins sent to and then restored it to check. but it crashed in the same way
  81 2012-09-14 01:37:35 <gmaxwell> But that kind of corruption isn't irrepariable.
  82 2012-09-14 01:38:03 <denisx> I never said deleting
  83 2012-09-14 01:38:03 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: thats okay, the tool in that thread can extract the keys out of it and make a new wallet.dat which is not corrupted and has the same keys.
  84 2012-09-14 01:38:27 <midnightmagic> denisx: I know you didn't. But you spoonfed him and didn't follow-up. :(
  85 2012-09-14 01:38:41 <midnightmagic> denisx: Honest mistake IMO.
  86 2012-09-14 01:39:09 <whitenissan> but yes, that must have been what happened. If i use that tool will it keeps the address i just recently got coins sent to?
  87 2012-09-14 01:39:26 <denisx> midnightmagic: I said "did you try without wallet.dat" he did not answer that and then left the channel
  88 2012-09-14 01:39:32 <gmaxwell> denisx: you didn't; indeed. But surely you can see how someone not knoweldgable might have done something daft... I'm not faulting you. Bad communication happens.
  89 2012-09-14 01:40:13 <midnightmagic> denisx: 30 seconds after you said that, he asked, "I have not done that. but would that not delete my current infomation causing me to lose my current address?"
  90 2012-09-14 01:40:42 <midnightmagic> it *appears* he inferred you meant him to delete his wallet.dat file.
  91 2012-09-14 01:40:54 <denisx> ops, that was not my intention
  92 2012-09-14 01:40:57 <whitenissan> let's not cause an argument here, I misunderstood.
  93 2012-09-14 01:40:58 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: if you use that tool it will create a new wallet.dat file with the content of all wallets it finds.
  94 2012-09-14 01:41:01 <denisx> I'm sorry
  95 2012-09-14 01:41:11 <gmaxwell> (though it takes a long time to sweep your whole disk.
  96 2012-09-14 01:41:12 <gmaxwell> )
  97 2012-09-14 01:41:34 <gmaxwell> if you run it just on a single wallet file it will make a new wallet file with just the stuff in that single input.
  98 2012-09-14 01:41:50 <gmaxwell> You can switch between multiple wallets by shutting down and swapping out the files. Just take care while doing it.
  99 2012-09-14 01:41:54 <whitenissan> alright, thanks for all the help
 100 2012-09-14 01:41:56 <gmaxwell> And as always backup backup backup.
 101 2012-09-14 01:42:14 <midnightmagic> whitenissan: Good luck. We would like to hear whether you managed to successfully recover any keys.
 102 2012-09-14 01:42:33 <gmaxwell> make backups on a usb key of all wallets before doing anything tricky. make periodic backups. as you go. Good luck. If you get stuck please feel free to ask more questions.
 103 2012-09-14 01:43:13 <gmaxwell> never overwrite a backup copy just make more backups. :)
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 105 2012-09-14 01:44:18 <whitenissan> anyone know if that tool can be run on DSL (damn small linux)
 106 2012-09-14 01:44:29 <midnightmagic> whitenissan: It's obvious it was just a simple misunderstanding, I don't mean to imply I blame anyone. This sort of thing happens all the time, and I sympathize a lot with you and denisx both.
 107 2012-09-14 01:44:33 <gmaxwell> whitenissan: the binary is static, should work on any linux.
 108 2012-09-14 01:44:53 <whitenissan> alright thanks for all the help
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 111 2012-09-14 01:46:42 <denisx> but maybe his wallet.dat is already corrupt, because it did not work with it yesterday before he deleted it
 112 2012-09-14 01:47:22 <midnightmagic> gah poor guy
 113 2012-09-14 01:47:32 <gmaxwell> denisx: what I expect happened was that he probably had addr.dat corruption after an unclean shutdown, which is a frequent problem in versions with addr.dat.
 114 2012-09-14 01:47:55 <gmaxwell> And that made his client not start. Also his wallet was in an unclean state due to the unclean shutdown.
 115 2012-09-14 01:47:56 lggr has joined
 116 2012-09-14 01:48:05 <gmaxwell> Forum advice was to delete everything except the wallet.
 117 2012-09-14 01:48:22 <gmaxwell> But then the software was unable to read the wallet because the db logs had been deleted and the wallet was unclean.
 118 2012-09-14 01:48:43 <gmaxwell> Fortunately, that wallet recovery tool will rescue the keys from a wallet in that state (so long as they're not encrypted).
 119 2012-09-14 01:49:01 <gmaxwell> There are some bdb tools that would probably fix it too.
 120 2012-09-14 01:50:02 <midnightmagic> db_dump | db_recover might do it: what are the chances that it was failing on a keygen
 121 2012-09-14 01:50:22 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: db_dump will probably refuse to read it too.. though there might be some arguments to make it go.
 122 2012-09-14 01:51:30 <gmaxwell> but the recovery tool is pretty good.. it just doesn't worry about reading the database.. it matches bytes looking for things that look like the seralized private keys.
 123 2012-09-14 01:51:35 <MC-Eeepc> rc3 changelog?
 124 2012-09-14 01:51:55 <midnightmagic> db_dump is way more robust than I thought it was. -R and -r are the beasties to pull data.
 125 2012-09-14 01:52:01 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: posted in the thread, kinda, but ... use the git luke. :)
 126 2012-09-14 01:52:12 <midnightmagic> yeah the recovery tool is probably way mor thorough.
 127 2012-09-14 01:52:29 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it actually found some coins on my system that I didn't know I'd lost. :-/
 128 2012-09-14 01:52:44 <MC-Eeepc> can i have a quick link to the git page please
 129 2012-09-14 01:52:44 <denisx> did he say something about the amount of bitcoins in his wallet?
 130 2012-09-14 01:52:50 <gmaxwell> and also about 5k LTC.
 131 2012-09-14 01:52:53 <midnightmagic> awesome.  I'm always paranoid about that, which is why I so sorely miss dumpwallet and importwallet.
 132 2012-09-14 01:53:09 <midnightmagic> denisx: A few hundred dollars, and then a few hundred more.
 133 2012-09-14 01:53:22 <midnightmagic> whatever that means.
 134 2012-09-14 01:53:26 <gmaxwell> denisx: well just now he said he lost $400. But I expect he'll recover them all.
 135 2012-09-14 01:53:51 ZephyrVoid has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 136 2012-09-14 01:53:53 <gmaxwell> (he found the fine he 'deleted' in the recycle bin)
 137 2012-09-14 01:55:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 138 2012-09-14 01:56:46 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I think we just need to make a habbit of hitting every single person in here that asks a question with "Have you made a wallet.dat backup lately?" even if they're asking just how signmessage works.
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 141 2012-09-14 01:58:26 <midnightmagic> I hadn't made a backup in weeks, even post wallet upgrade, until last night. I should probably be automating it or something.
 142 2012-09-14 01:58:48 <MC-Eeepc> why doesnt the client bput a backup away itself periodically
 143 2012-09-14 01:59:02 <MC-Eeepc> i mean it took microsoft 10 years to learn that lesson with office.........
 144 2012-09-14 01:59:04 <midnightmagic> MC-Eeepc: Because then it's doing something surprising with a sensitive file.
 145 2012-09-14 01:59:19 <midnightmagic> and deleting wallet.dat might not be deleting it, secure wipe or not.
 146 2012-09-14 01:59:29 <MC-Eeepc> more surprising than "surprise you just lost $400"
 147 2012-09-14 02:00:26 <MC-Eeepc> couldnt it just dump wallet.dat.backup in the very same folder
 148 2012-09-14 02:00:32 <MC-Eeepc> just incase the real one gets munged
 149 2012-09-14 02:00:47 <midnightmagic> wallet.dat.1 wallet.dat.2 wallet.dat.3 wallet.dat.4
 150 2012-09-14 02:01:00 <midnightmagic> MC-Eeepc: Create a pull request. :)
 151 2012-09-14 02:01:40 lggr has joined
 152 2012-09-14 02:01:41 <MC-Eeepc> a pull request is something im only used to doing in bars and clubs
 153 2012-09-14 02:03:25 <MC-Eeepc> implying i regularly go to bars and clubs anymore, who am i kidding
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 155 2012-09-14 02:07:49 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: we've discussed that in here before, I have the impression that it was varriously opposed, but I don't recall specifics so I could be imagining that.
 156 2012-09-14 02:08:00 <gmaxwell> The obvious problem is what midnightmagic says...
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 158 2012-09-14 02:08:41 <MC-Eeepc> i suspect the people who will have thier ass saved by an auto backup wont have much concept of wallet.dat anyway
 159 2012-09-14 02:08:46 <MC-Eeepc> or even know where it is
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 162 2012-09-14 02:09:48 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: sure, but... it's not useful unless default, and a default feature impacts more people than the one it saves.
 163 2012-09-14 02:09:49 ErnestoJuarell has joined
 164 2012-09-14 02:09:57 <gmaxwell> But stop.. I don't want to argue with you. I think we should do that too.
 165 2012-09-14 02:10:11 <MC-Eeepc> oh, cool
 166 2012-09-14 02:10:56 <MC-Eeepc> perhaps an elective screen on first run
 167 2012-09-14 02:11:01 <gmaxwell> Backup every 90 address generations. or one a week, whichever is more often. number them and keep 10 or something.  Encryption needs to be taught to delete the backups.
 168 2012-09-14 02:11:23 <gmaxwell> nah, protective things need to be default really, if we can't make it sufficiently safe we shouldn't offer it, and if it is it should be default.
 169 2012-09-14 02:11:24 <denisx> fuck, where is the wallet.dat on a mac?
 170 2012-09-14 02:11:40 <copumpkin> ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin
 171 2012-09-14 02:12:16 <gmaxwell> Generally it's bad design to ask the user anything we don't absolutely have to.  Asking them basically just has the advantage of letting us blame the victim down the road when they get screwed after picking the 'wrong' option.
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 173 2012-09-14 02:12:38 <copumpkin> gmaxwell++
 174 2012-09-14 02:13:51 <gmaxwell> (also, telling them that we're 'backing it up' may discourage real backups and then a hdd crash kills them, I'd rather it be a pleasent surprise after corruption.)
 175 2012-09-14 02:14:07 ZenInTexas has joined
 176 2012-09-14 02:14:27 <MC-Eeepc> something to remind a user to export to external sotrage or something?
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 178 2012-09-14 02:14:50 <MC-Eeepc> every 90 keygens or whatever
 179 2012-09-14 02:14:59 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: yea, thats been more recently suggested... the only issue with that is we can't tell if a backup was done manually, so it could be annoying.
 180 2012-09-14 02:15:18 <gmaxwell> "fuck you, it's already backed up"
 181 2012-09-14 02:15:27 <denisx> then backup and don't tell
 182 2012-09-14 02:15:28 <MC-Eeepc> i thought manual backups were a bit dangerous anyway
 183 2012-09-14 02:15:38 <gmaxwell> denisx: you can't do external backups without telling.
 184 2012-09-14 02:15:48 <denisx> gmaxwell: not external
 185 2012-09-14 02:15:48 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: you just need to shut down cleanly first, then they're fine.
 186 2012-09-14 02:16:05 <gmaxwell> denisx: yes sure we were just talking about that. I agree. but the user still needs external backups.
 187 2012-09-14 02:16:11 <MC-Eeepc> yeah i didnt know that the first few times
 188 2012-09-14 02:16:37 <MC-Eeepc> i was unaware wallet.dat was a database, or that databases are mounted and unmounted
 189 2012-09-14 02:16:39 <gmaxwell> Ultimately the switch to determinstic wallets will greatly reduce the concern here.
 190 2012-09-14 02:17:06 <denisx> yeah, like apple is offering to save the pw for the WDE. but I don't use that either
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 192 2012-09-14 02:18:14 <MC-Eeepc> could the client have an option to automatically crypt up the wallet good and FTP it somewhere safe
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 194 2012-09-14 02:18:35 <MC-Eeepc> market for wallet assurance providers or somethng?
 195 2012-09-14 02:22:52 <gmaxwell> possibly. Once we have determinstic wallets the user should only really need one backup ever. And it should be small enough to print too.
 196 2012-09-14 02:24:36 <MC-Eeepc> oh you are do HD wallets cool
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 198 2012-09-14 02:25:27 <gmaxwell> MC-Eeepc: yea, why do you think sipa wrote the BIP?
 199 2012-09-14 02:25:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: hey, you want another 5 pages of how merkle trees work? ;p
 200 2012-09-14 02:26:11 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: you could explain pointers in C to me perhaps?
 201 2012-09-14 02:26:17 <MC-Eeepc> havent looked at the bips in a while
 202 2012-09-14 02:26:36 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: haha, did I miss another hilarious thread?
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 204 2012-09-14 02:26:41 <MC-Eeepc> looked at the bittorrent ones though, DHT is still draft lol
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 277 2012-09-14 05:35:38 <btcguy> hey, my bitcoin client has stopped downloading blocks. i'm waiting for a transaction, but it has been stuck at 93.35% for 20 minutes
 278 2012-09-14 05:39:38 lggr has joined
 279 2012-09-14 05:39:58 <sturles> Try restarting it.
 280 2012-09-14 05:40:51 <sturles> I've seen this as well.  It wakes up again eventually, but it can take a very long time.
 281 2012-09-14 05:42:41 <btcguy> i restarted it, but now the progress bar isn't showing up. I noticed that i didn't have a transaction that was sent this morning, noticed the blocks stopped so i read up on it. deleted the blocks, and let it redownload. stuck right around the same spot
 282 2012-09-14 05:43:28 <btcguy> I'll have to try restarting my computer
 283 2012-09-14 05:45:54 <weex_> btcguy: was it downloading before that 20 minutes?
 284 2012-09-14 05:46:20 <btcguy> yeah, it downloaded all the way up to that point. and then just stopped at 85 days ago
 285 2012-09-14 05:46:23 <BitcoinBaltar> how many active connections do you have?
 286 2012-09-14 05:46:33 <btcguy> 12
 287 2012-09-14 05:46:38 <weex_> how's your disk space?
 288 2012-09-14 05:47:05 <btcguy> 85 gigs free
 289 2012-09-14 05:47:36 <BitcoinBaltar> which version of the software is it?
 290 2012-09-14 05:48:37 <btcguy> umm one second
 291 2012-09-14 05:48:46 <btcguy> 0.6.3
 292 2012-09-14 05:49:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 293 2012-09-14 05:49:05 <btcguy> I haven't really had any problems with my bitwallet until recently
 294 2012-09-14 05:50:27 <weex_> you could check your debug.log
 295 2012-09-14 05:50:39 lggr has joined
 296 2012-09-14 05:50:59 <BitcoinBaltar> you could try added some other nodes to your bitcoin.conf file, here is a site that lists the longest running nodes by country - http://nodes.bitcoin.st
 297 2012-09-14 05:51:31 <btcguy> thanks i'll try both
 298 2012-09-14 05:51:36 <weex_> weird it doesn't show anything later than 0.6.0
 299 2012-09-14 05:52:00 <BitcoinBaltar> I think that is the network version and not client version.
 300 2012-09-14 05:52:30 Varan has joined
 301 2012-09-14 05:52:57 <weex_> ahh
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 305 2012-09-14 05:54:02 <xisalty> >fsf
 306 2012-09-14 05:54:09 <xisalty> as in the free software foundation ?
 307 2012-09-14 05:54:11 <btcguy> de-bug doesnt say much about it
 308 2012-09-14 05:54:41 <weex> who me?
 309 2012-09-14 05:55:05 * weex is a member
 310 2012-09-14 05:55:23 <xisalty> Yes
 311 2012-09-14 05:55:30 <xisalty> bretty good xD
 312 2012-09-14 05:55:46 <weex> yeah i believe to some extent in user freedom
 313 2012-09-14 05:56:01 <xisalty> Nice
 314 2012-09-14 05:56:59 <btcguy> nevermind, i closed my bitcoin wallet and it showed up.
 315 2012-09-14 05:58:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 316 2012-09-14 06:00:05 <btcguy> oh, i restarted it again and it finally started up again thanks for trying to help guys
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 318 2012-09-14 06:01:55 <weex> i aim to try
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 344 2012-09-14 07:10:05 <prietus> hi, i have troubles using diablominer, complaints about C  [libc.so.6+0x1174ff]  __nss_hosts_lookup+0x78bf , here is http://paste.debian.net/189772/
 345 2012-09-14 07:10:46 <Diablo-D3> erp nvidia
 346 2012-09-14 07:10:52 <prietus> yes Diablo-D3
 347 2012-09-14 07:10:57 <Diablo-D3> you're on the newest driver, right?
 348 2012-09-14 07:11:33 <Diablo-D3> DM should be working fine for you, even if you are on nvidia
 349 2012-09-14 07:11:34 <prietus> mmm, i think so
 350 2012-09-14 07:11:40 <Diablo-D3> btw, nvidia mining is seriously not worth it
 351 2012-09-14 07:11:53 <Diablo-D3> but theres no reason why DM shouldnt work
 352 2012-09-14 07:12:30 <prietus> im on linux x64 debian wheezy
 353 2012-09-14 07:12:51 <Diablo-D3> weird, I use sid, but Im on a radeon
 354 2012-09-14 07:13:32 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 355 2012-09-14 07:13:39 <Diablo-D3> that traceback makes zero sense
 356 2012-09-14 07:13:44 <Diablo-D3> its crashing in nss
 357 2012-09-14 07:13:54 <prietus> yes
 358 2012-09-14 07:13:55 <Diablo-D3> thats the dns stuff inside libc
 359 2012-09-14 07:14:08 <Diablo-D3> I dont think its a driver bug at all now that I think of it
 360 2012-09-14 07:14:21 <prietus> agreed
 361 2012-09-14 07:15:31 <Diablo-D3> bring it up with the debian java team
 362 2012-09-14 07:15:45 <Diablo-D3> because either they screwed up, or the glibc team screwed up something that java is hitting
 363 2012-09-14 07:16:07 <prietus> with java sun i have the same error
 364 2012-09-14 07:16:18 <prietus> exactly the same error
 365 2012-09-14 07:16:26 <Diablo-D3> hrm, not the java team then
 366 2012-09-14 07:16:26 soaring_eagle has joined
 367 2012-09-14 07:16:30 <Diablo-D3> and I really doubt its glibc
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 369 2012-09-14 07:16:55 <Diablo-D3> you can always try upgrading to sid
 370 2012-09-14 07:17:08 <Diablo-D3> thats fixed quite a few random bugs that didnt make sense for some debian users
 371 2012-09-14 07:17:08 <prietus> yes im thinking about
 372 2012-09-14 07:17:53 <prietus> do you use debian opencl? Diablo-D3
 373 2012-09-14 07:18:05 <prietus> i mean debian packages
 374 2012-09-14 07:18:12 <Diablo-D3> yes
 375 2012-09-14 07:18:15 <Diablo-D3> debian packages fglrx as well
 376 2012-09-14 07:18:30 <Diablo-D3> on both amd and nvidia, NEVER use their installer
 377 2012-09-14 07:18:34 lggr has joined
 378 2012-09-14 07:18:34 <Diablo-D3> always use debian's own debs
 379 2012-09-14 07:18:48 <prietus> as i do
 380 2012-09-14 07:19:01 <prietus> im going to sid
 381 2012-09-14 07:19:12 <Diablo-D3> good luck because I'm going to bed =P
 382 2012-09-14 07:19:21 <prietus> lol thanks a lot
 383 2012-09-14 07:19:23 RazielZ has joined
 384 2012-09-14 07:19:25 <Diablo-D3> if going to sid doesnt fix it, bring it up on the DM thread in the forum
 385 2012-09-14 07:19:40 <prietus> sure thanks again
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 387 2012-09-14 07:20:46 <prietus> bye
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 434 2012-09-14 08:26:53 <prietus> hey Diablo-D3 update to sid and mining is ok
 435 2012-09-14 08:27:09 <prietus> *updated
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 457 2012-09-14 09:08:42 <prietus> ERROR: Invalid solution 539 from GeForce GT 520M (#1), possible driver or hardware issue, may be because of high temperature?
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 462 2012-09-14 09:19:34 <c_k> prietus: #bitcoin-mining
 463 2012-09-14 09:19:48 Varan has joined
 464 2012-09-14 09:19:57 <andyrossy> solve
 465 2012-09-14 09:20:15 <prietus> ok c_k
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 551 2012-09-14 12:23:00 Milkman has joined
 552 2012-09-14 12:23:04 <Milkman> hey
 553 2012-09-14 12:23:13 <Milkman> is there anyway i can make bitcoins to buy drugs on the internet?
 554 2012-09-14 12:23:28 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
 555 2012-09-14 12:23:37 <edcba> you can make bitcoins
 556 2012-09-14 12:23:46 <Milkman> lol
 557 2012-09-14 12:23:48 <edcba> now the buying drugs...
 558 2012-09-14 12:23:55 <edcba> maybe
 559 2012-09-14 12:23:56 <Milkman> how do you make bitcoins?
 560 2012-09-14 12:24:04 <edcba> you download bitcoin client
 561 2012-09-14 12:24:10 <edcba> and that's all
 562 2012-09-14 12:24:14 <edcba> then you wait
 563 2012-09-14 12:24:14 <Milkman> is there anyway to dupe bitcoins?
 564 2012-09-14 12:24:17 <edcba> waaaait
 565 2012-09-14 12:24:35 <edcba> Milkman: being very very very very very lucky
 566 2012-09-14 12:24:45 <JFK911> cloning bitcoins is not something you will ever learn for free
 567 2012-09-14 12:24:50 <edcba> if we could nobody would use it :)
 568 2012-09-14 12:25:23 <jeremias> just copy & paste the bitcoins and you got more of them
 569 2012-09-14 12:25:26 <jeremias> easy as cake
 570 2012-09-14 12:25:31 <edcba> haha
 571 2012-09-14 12:25:35 <edcba> nice
 572 2012-09-14 12:25:38 <JFK911> i can help you, but chances are you have no money at all because you can't buy your own bitcoins
 573 2012-09-14 12:26:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 574 2012-09-14 12:27:06 <edcba> Milkman: realistic way to get bitcoins anonymously is to use your graphic card to generate them with help of a pool
 575 2012-09-14 12:27:20 <edcba> or if you are really paranoid without pool
 576 2012-09-14 12:27:45 <edcba> but without pool you'll have to wait like months to get something like $500
 577 2012-09-14 12:28:10 lggr has joined
 578 2012-09-14 12:28:28 tastynaysty has joined
 579 2012-09-14 12:28:38 <edcba> months with your computer graphic card runnig at full speed...
 580 2012-09-14 12:29:14 datagutt has joined
 581 2012-09-14 12:29:19 <edcba> so maybe you can grow some canabis with heat generated too
 582 2012-09-14 12:31:36 <gmaxwell> This doesn't sound like a conversation for bitcoin-dev, or freenode in general.
 583 2012-09-14 12:33:04 <edcba> yeah goto #bitcoin
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 692 2012-09-14 15:46:44 <Tril_> is my 0.7.0rc3 supposed to say version v0.6.1-...?
 693 2012-09-14 15:47:37 <gmaxwell> Tril_: did you build it yourself?
 694 2012-09-14 15:47:38 <lianj> ?
 695 2012-09-14 15:47:45 <Tril_> gmaxwell: yes
 696 2012-09-14 15:47:57 <gmaxwell> Tril_: it does that if you build from git and haven't managed to pull the updated tags.
 697 2012-09-14 15:48:03 <gmaxwell> see if git pull --tags   does anything
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 699 2012-09-14 15:51:47 <epscy> if you converted a bitcoin private key to a number, how many digits would that number be?
 700 2012-09-14 15:52:05 <sipa> in decimal?
 701 2012-09-14 15:52:10 <epscy> yeah
 702 2012-09-14 15:52:28 <sipa> 77 or 78
 703 2012-09-14 15:52:43 <sipa> not more than 78
 704 2012-09-14 15:52:49 <epscy> thanks
 705 2012-09-14 15:53:07 <epscy> i assume a bitcoin address would be less
 706 2012-09-14 15:53:25 <lianj> sipa: but it can be for example the number 23?
 707 2012-09-14 15:53:32 <Tril_> gmaxwell: pull --tags worked, thanks
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 709 2012-09-14 15:57:57 <sipa> lianj: yes, that is a valid secret
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 711 2012-09-14 16:02:39 <sipa> every number between 1 and 2^256-2^128+something
 712 2012-09-14 16:03:31 <Tril_> make clean doesn't remove bitcoin-qt, is this desired?
 713 2012-09-14 16:03:59 <sipa> Tril_: never noticed, strange indeed
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 731 2012-09-14 16:32:31 <gavinandresen> speaking of tags... rc3 looks sane, has a few dozen downloads, should we tag/build 0.7.0 final today or Monday ?
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 733 2012-09-14 16:33:50 <MC-Eeepc> whats the git page gavinandresen ?
 734 2012-09-14 16:34:04 <gavinandresen> git page ???
 735 2012-09-14 16:34:14 <MC-Eeepc> the url
 736 2012-09-14 16:34:19 <gavinandresen> url for what ?
 737 2012-09-14 16:34:33 <MC-Eeepc> the github page for the project
 738 2012-09-14 16:34:50 <gavinandresen> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
 739 2012-09-14 16:35:06 <MC-Eeepc> thank you
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 741 2012-09-14 16:38:40 <MC-Eeepc> shit i cant see anything about a changelog here
 742 2012-09-14 16:40:11 <gavinandresen> MC-Eeepc: poke the Commits tab
 743 2012-09-14 16:41:22 <MC-Eeepc> oh thats cool
 744 2012-09-14 16:41:32 <MC-Eeepc> can you view by version number
 745 2012-09-14 16:41:39 <MC-Eeepc> ie between 7rc2 an rc3
 746 2012-09-14 16:42:52 <gavinandresen> MC-Eeepc: yes:  see https://github.com/blog/612-introducing-github-compare-view
 747 2012-09-14 16:43:02 <gavinandresen> MC-Eeepc:  e.g.    https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/v0.7.0rc2...v0.7.0rc3
 748 2012-09-14 16:43:18 lggr has joined
 749 2012-09-14 16:45:11 <MC-Eeepc> ok
 750 2012-09-14 16:49:36 michaelmclees has joined
 751 2012-09-14 16:49:57 <michaelmclees> quick question, i have a client running on my machine
 752 2012-09-14 16:50:10 <michaelmclees> on the same network, i have a new client that is downloading the blockchain
 753 2012-09-14 16:50:22 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 754 2012-09-14 16:50:29 <michaelmclees> i have done an addnode to the old computer
 755 2012-09-14 16:50:42 <michaelmclees> and they are talking to each other
 756 2012-09-14 16:50:52 <michaelmclees> but the blockchain download is still awfully slow
 757 2012-09-14 16:51:01 <michaelmclees> on the same router, i would think it would be blazing fast
 758 2012-09-14 16:51:05 <michaelmclees> what's the deal?
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 762 2012-09-14 16:56:24 <MC-Eeepc> its limited by i/o and cpu
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 764 2012-09-14 16:57:59 <wumpus> gavinandresen: I'd say tag it monday, so we still have the weekend to see if issues show up
 765 2012-09-14 16:58:02 <michaelmclees> would a slow computer limit it to 500 bytes ps?
 766 2012-09-14 16:58:29 topi` has joined
 767 2012-09-14 16:58:41 <wumpus> yes, the validation is pretty expensive
 768 2012-09-14 16:58:55 <gavinandresen> wumpus: ACK, Monday it is.
 769 2012-09-14 16:59:15 <michaelmclees> thank you guys, always very helpful and fast, guess i'll just continue to wait
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 772 2012-09-14 17:00:23 <Eliel> michaelmclees: in your case, it'd most likely make more sense to copy the already synced database over.
 773 2012-09-14 17:00:43 <michaelmclees> i tried that without success
 774 2012-09-14 17:00:58 <michaelmclees> would it matter if im copying from windows and pasting to linux?
 775 2012-09-14 17:01:16 <Eliel> you need to run the synced node with -detachdb parameter once and shut it down properly before it'll work
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 777 2012-09-14 17:01:52 <Eliel> otherwise it'll leave the database in a "broken" state that won't work copied to another system.
 778 2012-09-14 17:02:02 <michaelmclees> ahh, well that explains it
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 780 2012-09-14 17:03:56 <michaelmclees> im almost at the end of blk001, should i wait until it naturally starts 002 and then copy and paste that?
 781 2012-09-14 17:04:13 <michaelmclees> along with blkindex
 782 2012-09-14 17:04:23 <Eliel> I don't understand your question.
 783 2012-09-14 17:04:49 <michaelmclees> well, on the new machine, my blk0001 file is at 1.9 gb
 784 2012-09-14 17:05:01 <Eliel> just run the synced node with -detachdb parameter, then gracefully shut it down, wait until it's fully shut down.
 785 2012-09-14 17:05:20 <Eliel> then copy blk* over to the other system's bitcoin's data folder.
 786 2012-09-14 17:05:27 <Eliel> replacing any blk* files in there.
 787 2012-09-14 17:05:49 <michaelmclees> can i run it with that parameter by checking the box in the client
 788 2012-09-14 17:06:21 <Eliel> if that's found in the options, I guess so.
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 790 2012-09-14 17:07:09 <Eliel> as long as you're running the same version on both, it should work.
 791 2012-09-14 17:08:14 <michaelmclees> both 6.3, one windows, other linux, will that conflict?
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 793 2012-09-14 17:13:38 <Tril_> possbile bug - Win7, Bitcoin-qt 0.7.0rc3, I'm running -onlynet=ipv6 and went to console and typed "peerinfo", I got "Method not found (code -32601)"
 794 2012-09-14 17:14:48 <Tril_> I also have v6 port 8333 open and can connect remotely but have only 8 peers (after about 10 minutes - maybe ok)
 795 2012-09-14 17:15:57 <Tril_> nevermind the former, it's getpeerinfo, duh
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 845 2012-09-14 18:36:41 <Mysticsam> Hi everyone I have found a bug in 0.6.3
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 853 2012-09-14 18:42:00 <Mysticsam> I had my client offline for a couple of days. I was getting bitcoin just before i was starting the client. When i was startingthe client it started to download blocks. It did also get the bitcoin tranfer from judt minutes before the client was started . The thing is that it comfired that tranfer with block that was older then the transfer itself.
 854 2012-09-14 18:43:12 <Mysticsam> so the tranfer the was just 2-4 minutes old got 50 cinfirmes
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 857 2012-09-14 18:51:51 <JFK911> you have to rescan the blockchain now
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 862 2012-09-14 18:58:01 <daedeloth> hi there
 863 2012-09-14 18:58:10 <daedeloth> I'm working on a very simple API to accept bitcoins in my game
 864 2012-09-14 18:58:14 <daedeloth> (docs at http://bitcoin.catlab.eu/)
 865 2012-09-14 18:58:35 <daedeloth> Main goal is to use it myself, but if others want to use it, I want that to be possible as well
 866 2012-09-14 18:58:56 <daedeloth> So, as for implementation I was thinking the following
 867 2012-09-14 18:59:05 <daedeloth> and I would like to hear your feedback/thoughts
 868 2012-09-14 18:59:42 <daedeloth> when a CLIENT (= an API user) registers, I create an account for him
 869 2012-09-14 18:59:43 * t7 is reading it
 870 2012-09-14 19:00:20 <t7> "...our server contacts your server." how
 871 2012-09-14 19:00:41 <daedeloth> when a USER (end user) initiates a payment, CLIENT requests a new address. I give him an address from a rotating set of "income accounts"
 872 2012-09-14 19:00:49 <daedeloth> t7: simple POST HTTP request
 873 2012-09-14 19:01:04 <t7> ah so i just set up a url somewhere
 874 2012-09-14 19:01:18 <daedeloth> so, when the bitcoins arrive in this incoming account, I MOVE the bitcoins to the address of CLIENT
 875 2012-09-14 19:01:34 <daedeloth> and once a day, I send the complete content of the CLIENT account to the CLIENT "end address"
 876 2012-09-14 19:01:47 <daedeloth> t7: yea provide it with the /v1/request call
 877 2012-09-14 19:02:03 <t7> daedeloth: i think rather than sending a key your should require the requests to be signed
 878 2012-09-14 19:02:13 <t7> someone could MITM and get the key
 879 2012-09-14 19:03:05 <daedeloth> t7: yes, it's possible, but then they would also have to do a DNS hack on the CLIENT server in order to fake the response from the validate call
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 881 2012-09-14 19:03:27 <daedeloth> the validationcode in itself is useless
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 883 2012-09-14 19:04:27 <daedeloth> well, what I'm basically wondering about, creating this "many" accounts: is it bad?
 884 2012-09-14 19:04:44 <t7> daedeloth: no, but pool them after they are finished
 885 2012-09-14 19:04:55 <t7> that way you dont have a 100 megabit wallet
 886 2012-09-14 19:05:00 <t7> or worse
 887 2012-09-14 19:05:07 <daedeloth> yea, I can do that for the incoming accounts
 888 2012-09-14 19:05:09 <t7> pool the addresses
 889 2012-09-14 19:05:11 <daedeloth> but not for the client accounts
 890 2012-09-14 19:05:18 <daedeloth> but then again, that won't be that many
 891 2012-09-14 19:05:57 <daedeloth> actually I don't really need the client accounts
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 901 2012-09-14 19:33:09 <denisx> any news from the guy with the deleted wallet?
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 910 2012-09-14 19:49:50 <Joric> did anyone manage to write blockchain analyzer already? i.e. to determine the shortest path between two arbitrary addresses
 911 2012-09-14 19:50:48 <Diablo-D3> no, but sounds easy with erlang
 912 2012-09-14 19:51:27 <Joric> hehe erlang =) i'd rather suggest patching bitcoind
 913 2012-09-14 19:52:02 <Joric> at least add indexing by addresses
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 917 2012-09-14 19:59:53 <eian> joric, I got disconnected before you asked something
 918 2012-09-14 20:00:14 <eian> joric, were you asking about clustering of some sort?
 919 2012-09-14 20:01:11 <Joric> eian, determining the shortest path between two arbitrary addresses
 920 2012-09-14 20:02:10 <eian> I don't see an ultra reliable way to do that
 921 2012-09-14 20:02:20 <eian> how would you determine if there is a path?
 922 2012-09-14 20:02:37 <Joric> eian, consequent transactions
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 924 2012-09-14 20:03:12 <eian> do you mean subsequent?
 925 2012-09-14 20:03:51 <Joric> well, or that
 926 2012-09-14 20:04:25 lggr has joined
 927 2012-09-14 20:04:41 <eian> I've tried clustering in every way I know how
 928 2012-09-14 20:04:48 <eian> but yeah
 929 2012-09-14 20:05:02 <eian> I've went through the entire block chain and clustered via inputs
 930 2012-09-14 20:05:37 <eian> but gmaxwell made it aware that this is not entirely correct, since it is possible for inputs to come from multiple people
 931 2012-09-14 20:06:32 <eian> although that is rare
 932 2012-09-14 20:08:17 <gavinandresen> creating a trust-free peer-to-peer input mixing service would be a fun little project.
 933 2012-09-14 20:09:27 <eian> gmaxwell was saying multiperson tx's would be more common in 0.7 - I didn't catch why
 934 2012-09-14 20:09:34 sgornick has joined
 935 2012-09-14 20:09:38 <eian> I've been lazying abour reading the source :P
 936 2012-09-14 20:09:40 <eian> about*
 937 2012-09-14 20:09:49 <gmaxwell> Because they're easy to create by hand now.
 938 2012-09-14 20:09:52 <gavinandresen> raw transactions API makes it a lot easier to create the transactions
 939 2012-09-14 20:10:08 <eian> ah I see
 940 2012-09-14 20:10:18 <gmaxwell> you don't need to dork with the source. I've got a howto written up, along with several others that I'll publish when 0.7 comes out.
 941 2012-09-14 20:10:35 <eian> great :) Look forward to reading it
 942 2012-09-14 20:10:50 <gavinandresen> so if somebody was to create a trust-free p2p mixing service... what would be the best decentralized place to publish "I've got an input I want to combine, who wants to join me" messages ?
 943 2012-09-14 20:11:13 <Joric> i'm too lazy to finish the tx editor :) though i have a slightly better version in development
 944 2012-09-14 20:11:14 <eian> irc?
 945 2012-09-14 20:11:32 <gmaxwell> how to use raw txn for fully offline wallets, how to use it for joint party transactions, how to use it for N-way escrow transactions and redemption.
 946 2012-09-14 20:11:40 <gavinandresen> irc would work, except contributing more irc traffic seems anti-social
 947 2012-09-14 20:12:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: so far IRC has worked for me. I've done a whole bunch of these transactions with varrous people. :P  But I assume you mean automatic.
 948 2012-09-14 20:12:15 <gavinandresen> yes, I mean automatic
 949 2012-09-14 20:12:21 sebicas has joined
 950 2012-09-14 20:12:33 <gmaxwell> If you want a service I suppose you'd run a private irc server as a hidden service.
 951 2012-09-14 20:12:46 <gmaxwell> but thats not decenteralized.
 952 2012-09-14 20:13:05 <gavinandresen> yeah, I'm wondering if there are decentralized, anonymous broadcast mechanisms.
 953 2012-09-14 20:13:14 <gmaxwell> sure, the bittorrent DHT.
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 955 2012-09-14 20:14:02 <gavinandresen> I'll have to look deeper into how that works.  Could we use it for our bootstrapping ?
 956 2012-09-14 20:14:03 <Joric> the only i know so far is http://blockchain.info/pushtx http://bitsend.rowit.co.uk went offline
 957 2012-09-14 20:14:35 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: then you just have a meta bootstrapping issue.
 958 2012-09-14 20:14:38 <eian> jorc, that site is neat :)
 959 2012-09-14 20:14:54 <gmaxwell> the only fully decenteralized bootstrapping mechnism I know of is scanning the internet. :P
 960 2012-09-14 20:15:02 <gmaxwell> which doesn't work so hot for ipv6.
 961 2012-09-14 20:15:08 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: how does bittorrent's DHT bootstrap ?
 962 2012-09-14 20:15:08 <Joric> eian, http://brainwallet.org/#tx uses it
 963 2012-09-14 20:15:17 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hardcoded seednodes.
 964 2012-09-14 20:15:27 <gmaxwell> IIRC, been a long time since I looked at it.
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 966 2012-09-14 20:16:11 <eian> gmaxwell, have time to look at a more recent report? it's 5 pages (with pretty pictures!)
 967 2012-09-14 20:16:24 <gmaxwell> eian: I will tonight.
 968 2012-09-14 20:16:29 <eian> ok, thanks
 969 2012-09-14 20:16:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: also, I think running a bittorrent DHT node might give us some of the same problems IRC gave us; misdetection by varrious bits of naughty behavior detection stuff.
 970 2012-09-14 20:17:12 <gmaxwell> instead of "zomg botnet"  you'd get "zomg p2p file trading"
 971 2012-09-14 20:17:25 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yeah....
 972 2012-09-14 20:18:35 <eian> I tried running some code that connects to IRC on www.softlayer.com and the told me it was against their AUP (acceptable use policy)
 973 2012-09-14 20:18:52 <eian> I believe it is a common restriction
 974 2012-09-14 20:19:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: multicast!
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 977 2012-09-14 20:28:35 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I was thinking about Emergency Wallet Backup Recovery today... do you think we could come up with a scheme that is "safe enough" even if the user chooses a weak passphrase, if recovering the backed up wallet takes on the order of a day or two if you know the passphrase?
 978 2012-09-14 20:28:41 rdponticelli_ has joined
 979 2012-09-14 20:29:45 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: wouldn't that just be encrypting with the result of 1 GH (or so) of SHA256 on the passphrase?
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 982 2012-09-14 20:30:39 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: hmm?  The scheme I was thinking of was encrypt with (passphrase + randomness).  Then throwing away the randomness, so to decrypt you have to brute-force.
 983 2012-09-14 20:31:05 <Luke-Jr> I suppose that could work too
 984 2012-09-14 20:31:24 <wizkid057> interesting...  a sanctioned brute force recovery setup
 985 2012-09-14 20:31:25 <gavinandresen> ... and scaling the brute-force so it takes an average computer a day or two of 100% CPU time.
 986 2012-09-14 20:31:27 <Luke-Jr> question is whether you want to depend on the entropy source or SHA256 being uncrackable
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 988 2012-09-14 20:33:00 <Luke-Jr> probably worth considering too: which one is harder for GPUs/FPGAs to bruteforce?
 989 2012-09-14 20:33:02 <gavinandresen> That led me to start thinking about whether or not there is a way to tell the user "You chose a weak passphrase."
 990 2012-09-14 20:33:35 <gavinandresen> (re: GPU/FPGAs :  could use scrypt with very high memory/cpu work factors for the "takes a day to brute force")
 991 2012-09-14 20:34:03 <BlueMatt> yuck, can we stick with hd?
 992 2012-09-14 20:34:12 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: other than too short to possibly be non-weak it's hard to do fair weakness checking. Because the checking itself reduces entropy.
 993 2012-09-14 20:34:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I don't generally like the needs a password bit much though, simply because the user forgetting the password is one of the useful cases to backup against.
 994 2012-09-14 20:35:01 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: well, that led me to thinking it'd be spiffy if there was a web service with rainbow tables of all the known passwords/phrases to check against....
 995 2012-09-14 20:35:07 <gmaxwell> (and often seriously underestimated by the user)
 996 2012-09-14 20:35:40 <gavinandresen> Ideally, I'd love to submit a SHA256 of my master passphrase along with my email address, and then get told by the web service if/when anybody in the world thought of the same passphrase.
 997 2012-09-14 20:35:41 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: ya, sure just send your password to the password search engine.. doh. :P
 998 2012-09-14 20:36:03 graingert has joined
 999 2012-09-14 20:36:21 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: if the service stored nothing but hashes it'd be safe...
1000 2012-09-14 20:36:56 <BlueMatt> again, doesnt it make more sense to encourage hd wallet use and have people print out unencrypted copies as backup instead of doing complicated make-wallet-security-weaker encryption?
1001 2012-09-14 20:36:58 <freewil> would it be safer to submit a hash of the hash?
1002 2012-09-14 20:37:01 <gavinandresen> ... seed it with all of the common/hacked password databases that are already out there....
1003 2012-09-14 20:37:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: nah, ... because mtgox users with all hashed passwords were safe? :P
1004 2012-09-14 20:37:58 <gmaxwell> (the problem is the service or someone who cracked them could just run bruteforcing against the recieved password)
1005 2012-09-14 20:38:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: all the secure passwords are
1006 2012-09-14 20:38:01 <wizkid057> crappy passwords will always be a weakness
1007 2012-09-14 20:38:26 <Luke-Jr> I doubt my old MtGox password can be found
1008 2012-09-14 20:38:30 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: they're not a weakness if the attacker can't use them (lacking the hundreds of bits of private keying material)
1009 2012-09-14 20:38:32 <wizkid057> lol
1010 2012-09-14 20:38:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: how many digits is it?
1011 2012-09-14 20:38:45 <wizkid057> my mtgox password is 6 characters :P
1012 2012-09-14 20:38:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think 8 or so
1013 2012-09-14 20:38:54 <Luke-Jr> but I used a random maker program
1014 2012-09-14 20:39:00 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: then it can be found.
1015 2012-09-14 20:39:11 <wizkid057> they'll never find mine...
1016 2012-09-14 20:39:22 <gmaxwell> You can do something like 1B/cryptmd5/s on a fairly modest gpu cluster. IIRC.
1017 2012-09-14 20:39:33 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: sure, I suppose you'd have to trust that the service would actually notify you if it managed to brute-force your password instead of trying the password somewhere...
1018 2012-09-14 20:39:34 <BlueMatt> 8char ascii is pretty close to rainbow-table territory
1019 2012-09-14 20:40:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I have md5 rainbow tables for with 12 characters of alphanum.
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1022 2012-09-14 20:41:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, thats why you dont use alphanum ;)
1023 2012-09-14 20:41:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: RE: hd wallets and printing out to backup:  yeah, probably that's the right way to go, it is simpler.
1024 2012-09-14 20:42:07 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... although I think printers will get more and more rare as we all get iPads and iPhones
1025 2012-09-14 20:42:12 <gavinandresen> ... and kindles and....
1026 2012-09-14 20:42:41 <wizkid057> gavinandresen: i dont think there will be a lack of printers in our lifetimes
1027 2012-09-14 20:43:01 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well, thats true, but I suppose most people will have printer access for a long time now (though keeping people from printing to pdf and storing their seed on their desktop in pdf form is a whole 'nother story...)
1028 2012-09-14 20:43:06 <gavinandresen> I dunno, I don't use my printer very much.
1029 2012-09-14 20:43:14 <BlueMatt> but you still have one ;)
1030 2012-09-14 20:43:17 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
1031 2012-09-14 20:43:28 <gavinandresen> Yes, but I'm a geek
1032 2012-09-14 20:43:31 <BlueMatt> or your office has one, or your neighbor has one (worst case) or...
1033 2012-09-14 20:43:43 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: another option is multiparty excrowed backups. Licensed attornies (subject to professional standards; less subject to legal intimidation) with the decryption keys offline in multiple jurisdictions who don't even know what customers they have because you only pay to get data back from them.
1034 2012-09-14 20:43:44 <gavinandresen> printing private keys on a shared printer is scary
1035 2012-09-14 20:43:58 <gmaxwell> esp with printers that save recent printouts. :(
1036 2012-09-14 20:44:01 <gavinandresen> yes
1037 2012-09-14 20:44:19 <gavinandresen> heck, printing private keys on a network-connected printer is scary
1038 2012-09-14 20:44:26 <wizkid057> doesnt that go against the whole decentralized theme?
1039 2012-09-14 20:44:28 <eian> indeed: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-6412439.html
1040 2012-09-14 20:44:51 <helo> Bitcoin Safe Printer (tm)
1041 2012-09-14 20:44:52 <gmaxwell> wizkid057: then don't use it.
1042 2012-09-14 20:45:07 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: true...but Id say its a fairly minor risk (its rarely researched, though there were some great probes into custom printer firmwares that did fun things a few years back)
1043 2012-09-14 20:45:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I mean _stock_ printer behavior on many highend multifunctions maintains past jobs so you can reprint from them.
1044 2012-09-14 20:45:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. I can walk up to the printer nearest to me in my office and print any of the last ~100 jobs that went through it.
1045 2012-09-14 20:46:12 <gmaxwell> But this doesn't worry me much at all. Wrong threat model.
1046 2012-09-14 20:46:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but, again, its probably pretty rare that people will be searching through your printer (hopefully its only physically accessible except to a rare one or two people...)
1047 2012-09-14 20:46:30 <gmaxwell> someone who can get to your printer can copy your disk and/or install a keyboard wedge.
1048 2012-09-14 20:46:39 <BlueMatt> yep
1049 2012-09-14 20:46:47 lggr has joined
1050 2012-09-14 20:47:14 <gavinandresen> multi-device transaction authorization makes all of this much safer, assuming there are good backup solutions for both devices
1051 2012-09-14 20:47:15 <eian> My company rented a $30k multifunction laser printer - I'm sure we had sensitive stuff still on the hard drive when our lease expired
1052 2012-09-14 20:47:16 <gmaxwell> I think the risk of data loss enormously trumps the marginal risk of a local leak.. if bitcoin becomes a lot more popular that might change.
1053 2012-09-14 20:47:39 <gmaxwell> eian: there are now standards for dealing with that.
1054 2012-09-14 20:47:45 <gmaxwell> actually interesting question, brb.
1055 2012-09-14 20:47:46 <eian> I'm glad :)
1056 2012-09-14 20:47:58 <wumpus> a lot of companies leave network printers exposed to the open internet, that can be some fun
1057 2012-09-14 20:48:35 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yea, there were some fun custom firmwares a year or two ago that just did dumb shit on the lcds and printed crap...
1058 2012-09-14 20:48:47 <wumpus> almost as much fun as security cameras 
1059 2012-09-14 20:48:47 <BlueMatt> (and the firmware upgrade stuff is usually very non-locked-down)
1060 2012-09-14 20:48:55 <BlueMatt> heh
1061 2012-09-14 20:49:48 drizztbsd has joined
1062 2012-09-14 20:49:51 <wizkid057> there was a not super public bug in some HP laserjet network printers that would let you set the LCD text
1063 2012-09-14 20:50:10 <wizkid057> and some of those printers needed a physical button press to initiate a firmware update...
1064 2012-09-14 20:50:23 osmosis has joined
1065 2012-09-14 20:51:08 <wumpus> in many cases it's the http server on those devices that's vulnerable, not the printing itself, though there have indeed been some exploits through postscript too
1066 2012-09-14 20:51:30 <wizkid057> stop the printer, initiate firmware update, send "PRESS OK TO PRINT" to the screen, and wait for someone to wonder where their document is and press OK to start the firmware update
1067 2012-09-14 20:51:34 <BlueMatt> anyway...I agree with gavinandresen, multi-device/wallet txes helps all of this a ton, and then Id say use hd wallets for both devices, print them both out, and you are pretty well-off
1068 2012-09-14 20:52:05 <daedeloth> the "move" command is instant, right? When I call move, and right after I call "balance", it shows the new balance?
1069 2012-09-14 20:52:08 <gavinandresen> yes.  Print them on different printers.  Or print one and email the other....
1070 2012-09-14 20:52:21 <gavinandresen> daedeloth: yes
1071 2012-09-14 20:52:27 <BlueMatt> or display on screen and make the user copy it down
1072 2012-09-14 20:52:29 <daedeloth> ok thanks :)
1073 2012-09-14 20:52:41 <BlueMatt> (though thats not too good, too many mistakes)
1074 2012-09-14 20:52:46 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: too many dyslexics in the wrlod
1075 2012-09-14 20:52:52 <wizkid057> ...
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1077 2012-09-14 20:53:09 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: multiple printouts has another value, if you're worried about them being stolen you can put them in seperate places.
1078 2012-09-14 20:53:33 * BlueMatt -> food
1079 2012-09-14 20:53:35 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes.  Or the same place if you want your heirs to be able to find them
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1081 2012-09-14 20:54:31 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Yes.  weirdly I think people do better reasoning about that risk than they do about the risks of forgetting an encryption key or heirs not having access to a key in your head.
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1084 2012-09-14 20:56:08 <gmaxwell> I like these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HZ8RN0/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=15467972499  (though obviously I don't use a shaving cream one; one look at a picture of me.. and well that would be a movie plot device.. "But what does HE need shaving cream for???")
1085 2012-09-14 20:56:22 <gavinandresen> I'm still wonder if there is value in the idea of "maybe weak passphrase + randomness" that has to be brute-forced... I don't have a feeling for how large the space of user-memorized passphrases is to know if it is practical.
1086 2012-09-14 20:58:05 <wumpus> I think it's an interesting idea, though it means that if the user types the wrong passphrase they have to wait two days to find that  out :-)
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1088 2012-09-14 20:58:56 <wizkid057> i have an idea
1089 2012-09-14 20:59:02 <wizkid057> how about just not forget your passwords
1090 2012-09-14 20:59:03 <wizkid057> lol
1091 2012-09-14 20:59:15 <gmaxwell> I still think the user forgetting their pass phrase is almost as important a case.
1092 2012-09-14 20:59:23 <gavinandresen> RE: barbasol container:  wonder if we could do something similar... like backup a private key that has a couple bitcoins associated with it.  But, unknown to attackers, add SHA256(passphrase) to that private key and you get your HD wallet master key with lots of bitcoins...
1093 2012-09-14 20:59:29 <MC1984> "beard buster"
1094 2012-09-14 20:59:35 <MC1984> red white n blue can
1095 2012-09-14 20:59:42 <MC1984> really America?
1096 2012-09-14 20:59:57 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's a classic design.
1097 2012-09-14 21:00:00 <gavinandresen> that'd be a good "canary in the coal mine", too, if the couple-of-bitcoins gets spent you know your backup is compromised.
1098 2012-09-14 21:00:17 <wizkid057> whats wrong with red/white/blue?
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1100 2012-09-14 21:00:32 <MC1984> should have thrown some eagles and shit on there too
1101 2012-09-14 21:00:43 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: HD wallets are potentially small enough there are many steganographic options.
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1103 2012-09-14 21:01:39 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the stripes are suppost to reflect barber poles.
1104 2012-09-14 21:01:46 <gmaxwell> MC1984: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole
1105 2012-09-14 21:03:05 <gmaxwell> I don't think the colors have anything to do with america. Though perhaps they did, as I assume many barber shops were operated by immigrants in locations with high immigration.
1106 2012-09-14 21:03:05 <MC1984> only RWB in the states
1107 2012-09-14 21:03:57 <gavinandresen> I guess the real barbasol can analogy would be if you stored an unencrypted backup of a private key that had bitcoins sent to it but had a current balance of zero.  With a HD key derived from it that had the real balance.  "move along, nothing to steal here...."
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1112 2012-09-14 21:06:24 <MC1984> same problem as these cans
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1114 2012-09-14 21:06:28 <denisx> Luke-Jr: regarding your workaround for the ztex duplicates, you don't know where they come from?
1115 2012-09-14 21:06:28 <wizkid057> well, if this were a common thing, then the thief should know that there was a second stash
1116 2012-09-14 21:06:38 <MC1984> everyone usues them and thieves get wise, try and open every can they see
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1120 2012-09-14 21:07:01 <Luke-Jr> denisx: the protocol is very weird; there was already duplicate checking at a more limited scope
1121 2012-09-14 21:07:26 <Luke-Jr> denisx: without any protocol documentation, I'm afraid of breaking older ztex devices :/
1122 2012-09-14 21:08:03 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: from what I can tell the ztex mining firmwares will continue mining the same data (and thus, giving the same results) until given new work or stopped in some fashion... if thats related
1123 2012-09-14 21:08:25 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: I don't think it is
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1125 2012-09-14 21:08:42 <Luke-Jr> there seems to be a legacy "return nonce" and a newer "return nonce array"
1126 2012-09-14 21:08:52 <Luke-Jr> the first time it's in the latter, and then later duplicated in the formr
1127 2012-09-14 21:09:29 <wizkid057> ah right
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1129 2012-09-14 21:10:21 <Joric> did you think about moving client settings from wallet.dat to bitcoin.conf?
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1131 2012-09-14 21:11:31 <gavinandresen> we did move them, but not into bitcoin.conf
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1133 2012-09-14 21:12:34 <gavinandresen> Joric: see http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qsettings.html   for how bitcoin-qt saves the settings now.
1134 2012-09-14 21:12:37 <Joric> oh i see it's in win32 registry now
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1144 2012-09-14 21:19:33 <wumpus> bitcoin.conf is not used to save settings because it should only ever be read only
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1173 2012-09-14 22:00:40 <diki> phew
1174 2012-09-14 22:00:46 <diki> finally ported pushpool to windows
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