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   3 2012-09-19 00:02:39 <MC1984> sipa done any new builds recently?
   4 2012-09-19 00:03:05 <sipa> no, and i'm seeing too many bugs myself currently in my branch
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  16 2012-09-19 00:32:08 <sipa> meh, my code segfaults after downloading a few blocks
  17 2012-09-19 00:32:15 <sipa> except when i compile in debug mode...
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  98 2012-09-19 02:29:52 <jgarzik> is anybody else having problems reaching bitcointalk.org?
  99 2012-09-19 02:31:07 <diki> Works on my end.
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 107 2012-09-19 02:43:59 <kreal> works
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 121 2012-09-19 03:04:40 <jgarzik> seems like there is a problem with 0.7 on Mac OSX, that does not seem present on other platforms
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 132 2012-09-19 03:18:56 <denisx> jgarzik: what problem, I have osx
 133 2012-09-19 03:19:08 <jgarzik> denisx: see the 0.7 announce thread
 134 2012-09-19 03:19:50 <gmaxwell> bitcointalk seems broken for me.
 135 2012-09-19 03:19:53 <gmaxwell> Is it high cpu usage?
 136 2012-09-19 03:19:54 <jgarzik> denisx: Gavin has macosx, and he would not release if macosx is 100% broken
 137 2012-09-19 03:20:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it was dead for me, for two days, until I turned off my Red Hat VPN and restarted Firefox.  Now, right this minute, it is working fine.
 138 2012-09-19 03:20:49 <jgarzik> previous behavior: Firefox just spun on "connecting..." until timeout
 139 2012-09-19 03:20:56 <jgarzik> Fedora 17
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 155 2012-09-19 03:47:43 <Ryan45> Curious if anyone knows of projects that use the bitcoin mining process, but apply it to a gaming system. to generate role playing cards.
 156 2012-09-19 03:47:52 <Ryan45> well, not the bitcoin process
 157 2012-09-19 03:47:54 <Ryan45> but the same concept
 158 2012-09-19 03:47:58 <kjj_> huh?
 159 2012-09-19 03:48:05 <maaku> why?
 160 2012-09-19 03:48:47 <gmaxwell> Ryan45: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash
 161 2012-09-19 03:48:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 162 2012-09-19 03:50:16 <Ryan45> Why? Because it sounds like a facinating way to generate game cards.
 163 2012-09-19 03:50:35 <Ryan45> thanks gmax, looking
 164 2012-09-19 03:50:54 <kjj_> I think you are going to need to clarify what part of bitcoin you are talking about
 165 2012-09-19 03:51:10 <Ryan45> bitcoin mining process
 166 2012-09-19 03:51:24 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 167 2012-09-19 03:51:48 <kjj_> hashing?  like all of the participants agree on a base number, and then try to find a nonce that gives them the least likely output in a set amount of time?
 168 2012-09-19 03:51:51 <Ryan45> Gmax: thanks for the link but that is not exactly what I was talking about
 169 2012-09-19 03:51:52 stamit has quit (Quit: stamit)
 170 2012-09-19 03:52:26 <Ryan45> kjj: sort of just like assigning cards to unique bit coins
 171 2012-09-19 03:52:40 <Ryan45> not the mining process
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 174 2012-09-19 03:54:06 <Ryan45> I'll do some more learning so I can come back and clarify :)
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 179 2012-09-19 04:04:03 <bitfoo> am I a bad person if I cap my bitcoind outbound bandwidth to around 150 kbps?
 180 2012-09-19 04:04:22 <bitfoo> I have around 70 connections usually
 181 2012-09-19 04:04:28 <kjj_> that probably isn't why you are a bad person, no
 182 2012-09-19 04:04:29 <bitfoo> and sometimes my connection gets choked
 183 2012-09-19 04:04:31 <bitfoo> lol
 184 2012-09-19 04:05:04 <kjj_> if you are actually throttling, I'd scale back your connections
 185 2012-09-19 04:05:11 <bitfoo> ok, maybe I should do that
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 187 2012-09-19 04:07:00 <bitfoo> I suppose blocks these days have gotten a lot bigger than they used to be
 188 2012-09-19 04:07:42 <kjj_> I think that you (and the network) would be better off with a smaller number of connections that can run at full speed than
 189 2012-09-19 04:07:58 <bitfoo> yeah, trying to figure the  option to do that
 190 2012-09-19 04:08:03 <bitfoo> if you know it off hand let me know :)
 191 2012-09-19 04:08:05 <kjj_> maxconnections
 192 2012-09-19 04:08:11 <bitfoo> thanks
 193 2012-09-19 04:08:14 <kjj_> in the bitcoin.conf
 194 2012-09-19 04:11:46 <kjj_> I'd just watch your cap and if you see it getting hit, keep cranking down maxconnections.  if maxconnections gets lower than you are comfortable with, think about cranking the cap up
 195 2012-09-19 04:12:25 <gmaxwell> bitfoo: if you're going to cap, just set listen=0  it'll avoid causing problems and also remove most of the bandwidth usage.
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 197 2012-09-19 04:12:43 <bitfoo> ah, maybe I should just do that
 198 2012-09-19 04:12:55 <bitfoo> I suppose I'm not really helping by accepting connections and then sending out blocks slowly
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 200 2012-09-19 04:14:29 <gmaxwell> Right.
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 202 2012-09-19 04:15:07 <bitfoo> I'll still be sending blocks out to my 8 outbound connections though right?
 203 2012-09-19 04:15:34 <gmaxwell> bitfoo: yes, but since you'll only be connecting out, the nodes you connect to should have the complete chain already, so it will only be new blocks.
 204 2012-09-19 04:16:04 <bitfoo> ok, so you're saying that most of the bandwidth is due to ancient nodes catching up and not new blocks
 205 2012-09-19 04:16:15 <gmaxwell> 1MB / 600 seconds is only about 13kbit/sec.. and you don't send a block to someone who already got it elsewhere.... so on average the usage isn't enormous.
 206 2012-09-19 04:16:24 <gmaxwell> bitfoo: correct
 207 2012-09-19 04:16:37 <bitfoo> cool, thanks
 208 2012-09-19 04:17:23 <gmaxwell> catching up peers just pull all they can from the first peer they connect to, so you get great big sustained loads when one picks you
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 210 2012-09-19 04:18:20 <bitfoo> ok, that's probably what I just saw a while ago then.
 211 2012-09-19 04:18:42 <kjj_> that was you?
 212 2012-09-19 04:18:58 <bitfoo> what? me?
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 215 2012-09-19 04:20:40 <kjj_> hmm.  I wonder if the github people will nuke a user account that's been idle for a year
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 218 2012-09-19 04:29:30 <copumpkin> does it have any code? then I'd guess not
 219 2012-09-19 04:29:41 <copumpkin> if it's completely unused, perhaps they'll be more open to it
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 250 2012-09-19 05:07:57 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,tblb 1h
 251 2012-09-19 05:08:00 <gribble> 6 days, 1 hour, 15 minutes, and 22 seconds
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 362 2012-09-19 08:17:19 <_dr> i have what i presume to be a stupid question, but why are spent txn kept by the client?
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 364 2012-09-19 08:18:00 <Joric> _dr, more to say, all txn kept =)
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 366 2012-09-19 08:20:59 <_dr> well, all = spent + unspent, right? unspent are required for several reasons; can't think of a reason for keeping spent txns (but i'm sure there are reasons)
 367 2012-09-19 08:21:02 <Joric> _dr, sipa's working on ultraprune branch it makes blockchain 15x smaller but your node loses all historical data
 368 2012-09-19 08:21:55 <_dr> any reason to keep historical data? apart from 'i want to trace money'; might actually be a 'feature' not to have historical data
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 371 2012-09-19 08:22:27 <_dr> only a snapshot of current coin distribution represented by the unspent txns
 372 2012-09-19 08:22:29 <Joric> idk an ability to trace all transactions back to origin is quite fun
 373 2012-09-19 08:23:09 <_dr> Joric: agreed, but you know what i mean...
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 467 2012-09-19 10:30:36 <epscy> i think getting rid of spent txes has security implications
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 481 2012-09-19 10:50:30 <thermoman> hi there. i have problems with bitcoins sent from a mining pool to my daemon ... i don't get the account/label from the daemon with gettransactions and category is generate instead of receive: http://pastebin.com/uRY2UCme
 482 2012-09-19 10:50:35 <thermoman> any ideas how a piece of software, using the RPC interface, could determine to which address/label/account these coins were originally sent?
 483 2012-09-19 10:50:38 <thermoman> is this a bug in the old 0.3.24 client? does upgrading help?
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 490 2012-09-19 11:12:56 <doublec> thermoman: pools that use "generate" transactions weren't compatible with accounts and "getreceived" rpc calls iirc
 491 2012-09-19 11:13:04 <doublec> thermoman: it may have changed recently but I'm not sure
 492 2012-09-19 11:13:23 <doublec> thermoman: I think Luke-Jr was working on some patches
 493 2012-09-19 11:13:42 <_dr> epscy: care to elaborate?
 494 2012-09-19 11:14:39 <epscy> _dr: you are best off asking sipa or gmaxwell
 495 2012-09-19 11:14:47 <_dr> ok, i'll just wait
 496 2012-09-19 11:17:39 lggr has joined
 497 2012-09-19 11:18:02 <thermoman> doublec: ok, so this is expected behaviour? so the user in question should send his mined btc to his own wallet and then transfer them to us, right?
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 499 2012-09-19 11:19:28 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: don't use unmaintained clients. 0.3.24 is vulnerable to a number of known and possibly unknown exploits
 500 2012-09-19 11:19:47 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: 0.7.0 is the first version with the generated-to-account issue fixed
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 505 2012-09-19 11:29:33 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: thanks. yes, will update to the newest version as soon as possible. is the RPC api from 0.7.0 backwards compatible to 0.3.24?
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 511 2012-09-19 11:35:52 <doublec> thermoman: as long as you don't use getmemorypool you should be fine
 512 2012-09-19 11:36:03 <thermoman> doublec: ok, thanks
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 518 2012-09-19 11:44:21 <thermoman> doublec: 0.3.24 doesn't have -detachdb option ... so should i upgrade to 0.6.3, run 0.6.3 with -detachdb and then upgrade to 0.7.0 or is it safe to upgrade straight to 0.7.0 from 0.3.24?
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 532 2012-09-19 11:58:51 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: I think the only backward incompatible change is the address/account w/ generation fix
 533 2012-09-19 11:58:59 <Luke-Jr> doublec: 0.3 and 0.4 didn't have GMP at all ;)
 534 2012-09-19 11:59:13 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: before 0.6, -detachdb was always used
 535 2012-09-19 11:59:34 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: but be sure to do a clean shutdown
 536 2012-09-19 11:59:37 <Luke-Jr> and wait for it to finish
 537 2012-09-19 12:01:52 <[7]> can someone tell me if these assumptions are correct?
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 539 2012-09-19 12:02:27 <[7]> 1. to extend mining keyspace beyond the normal nonce + nTime field, you increment a field in the coinbase txn
 540 2012-09-19 12:02:51 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: ok, thanks
 541 2012-09-19 12:03:16 <[7]> 2. to build a new block header from the modified coinbase txn you need, at the minimum, the hashes of all other merkle branches on the way to the root
 542 2012-09-19 12:07:14 <[7]> do you think it makes sense to push this kind of stuff down into the mining hardware in the future? or rather let the hardware work on 120 second ntime ranges on its own and step the extranonce on the host
 543 2012-09-19 12:07:22 lggr has joined
 544 2012-09-19 12:07:36 <[7]> i.e. basically abuse the ntime field as a hardware-level extra nonce
 545 2012-09-19 12:08:57 <_dr> [7]: isn't that what rollntime does?
 546 2012-09-19 12:10:12 <[7]> well, the original intention of rollntime seems to be allowing the miner software to step that field every second for autonomous host-side job generation for hardware up to 4.3GH/s
 547 2012-09-19 12:10:53 <[7]> I'm talking about stepping it inside the mining hardware itself at a faster than realtime speed, for mining hardware up to about 1TH/s
 548 2012-09-19 12:11:48 <[7]> and basically using extranonce for what rollntime was originally used for (to autonomously generate new work for that ntime-aware hardware on the host a couple of times per second)
 549 2012-09-19 12:12:46 JZavala has joined
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 551 2012-09-19 12:14:29 * [7] wonders how such a thing would line up with BIP22
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 554 2012-09-19 12:24:48 <Luke-Jr> [7]: well, I told BFL if they can, they should design their ASICs so the nonce size can be made larger (backward)
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 556 2012-09-19 12:25:12 <Luke-Jr> I don't see how GBT would necessarily be involved in that, just an implementation detail for the miner
 557 2012-09-19 12:25:51 <[7]> well I'm sure GBT pooled mining would introduce some more constraints on the coinbase etc. than solo mining
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 559 2012-09-19 12:27:06 <[7]> "nonce size made larger" as in allow to specify additional parts of the 96bit "taildata" to be incremented when running out of nonce space?
 560 2012-09-19 12:28:02 <[7]> the only things one can really roll are the nonce and ntime... nbits doesn't make much sense and the last bits of the merkle root neither
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 602 2012-09-19 13:16:17 <electronplusplus> Hi, I want to buy a FPGA but I'm not sure how to pick the right one. I saw the butterflylabs prices and when compared to other, it seems like a scam. How technical details should I look for when choosing an FPGA?
 603 2012-09-19 13:18:35 Raccoon` has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 604 2012-09-19 13:18:43 <kjj_> cost and hash rate.  divide the second one by the first one to find out how many hashes per second per dollar you are spending.
 605 2012-09-19 13:18:46 <otimm> i'd start with non technical details like actual delivery or support
 606 2012-09-19 13:19:09 <kjj_> also, if you like p2pool, make sure the one you buy can handle short cycles (I don't think BFL can be used on p2pool)
 607 2012-09-19 13:19:21 leotreasure has joined
 608 2012-09-19 13:19:43 <kjj_> heh, and as otimm says, whether they are actually shipping or not is a big factor
 609 2012-09-19 13:20:27 <[7]> does someone happen to know what the network limits on ntime are?
 610 2012-09-19 13:20:39 <[7]> and what would be a reasonable "acceptable range"?
 611 2012-09-19 13:20:40 <electronplusplus> how about butterfly labs? it's a scam, right?
 612 2012-09-19 13:20:42 <kjj_> yeah
 613 2012-09-19 13:21:00 <kjj_> BFL has been shipping FPGAs for quite a while now, with plenty of happy customers
 614 2012-09-19 13:21:15 <[7]> for most pools it's 0 to +120 secs, which seems a bit tight to me
 615 2012-09-19 13:21:34 <otimm> electronplusplus: they have shipped in the past, but their asic offerings look questionable
 616 2012-09-19 13:22:09 <electronplusplus> the images on their web site are rendered, I think
 617 2012-09-19 13:22:16 <kjj_> the new stratum protocol should take care of high speed mining.  check slush and btcguild
 618 2012-09-19 13:22:18 <[7]> electronplusplus: if you want something that actually delivers almost immediately (1-2 working days usually), buy X6500 boards
 619 2012-09-19 13:22:23 <kjj_> more pools should support it in the future
 620 2012-09-19 13:22:32 <[7]> cablesaurus has around 10 of them in stock right now
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 622 2012-09-19 13:22:56 <[7]> but for 5+ boards you might get a bulk price directly from us
 623 2012-09-19 13:23:56 <otimm> i am pretty happy with an 4x Spartan 6 XC6SLX150 board from a german supplier
 624 2012-09-19 13:24:31 <sipa> ztex?
 625 2012-09-19 13:24:35 <otimm> yes
 626 2012-09-19 13:24:36 <[7]> well, that's about the most expensive one you can find
 627 2012-09-19 13:24:57 <[7]> and also doesn't ship immediately, at least for bigger quantities
 628 2012-09-19 13:25:06 <kjj_> I'm just not buying anything right now.  if ASICs show up, an investment in FPGAs at this point will never pay off
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 630 2012-09-19 13:26:03 <otimm> just wanted this one board, did not plan to invest big at the moment, looked like the most trustworthy
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 632 2012-09-19 13:26:44 <sipa> the ztex one certainly works
 633 2012-09-19 13:27:03 <kjj_> it doesn't help that actual FPGA chips are ungodly expensive
 634 2012-09-19 13:27:43 <[7]> electronplusplus: which country are you located in?
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 638 2012-09-19 13:34:26 <kjj_> I'm pretty sure that in a few months the FPGA era will be seen as nothing more than a way to bootstrap ASIC production.  FPGAs don't deliver any more hashes per second per dollar than GPUs
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 640 2012-09-19 13:34:51 <sipa> they do produce more hashes per joule than GPUs though
 641 2012-09-19 13:34:54 <sipa> significantly
 642 2012-09-19 13:35:19 <kjj_> yes, by a lot.  but for various reasons, I don't think that factor is the important one
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 646 2012-09-19 13:36:22 <sipa> it depends on the % of mining revenue being spent on electricity costs
 647 2012-09-19 13:36:32 <otimm> but it is all speculation, nobody has seen a working asic yet
 648 2012-09-19 13:36:42 <sipa> indeed
 649 2012-09-19 13:36:57 <sipa> though i found the fact that someone from BFL was present at the london conference reassuring
 650 2012-09-19 13:37:17 <sipa> in the sense that they're not some anonymous entity
 651 2012-09-19 13:37:37 <kjj_> but there are chip fabs that will take your FPGA firmware and build THAT chip, so it isn't like they aren't coming soon
 652 2012-09-19 13:37:46 Motest031 has joined
 653 2012-09-19 13:38:12 <[7]> kjj_: that's not really a viable strategy
 654 2012-09-19 13:38:23 <kjj_> how so?
 655 2012-09-19 13:38:44 <[7]> you lose the reprogrammability of fpgas but still can't compete against "real" asics
 656 2012-09-19 13:38:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 657 2012-09-19 13:39:02 <sipa> if you're going to do the effort of making an ASIC, better spend some money on getting the best performance you can get out of it
 658 2012-09-19 13:39:07 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 661 2012-09-19 13:39:12 <kjj_> I'd be totally amazed if there are "real" ASICs coming soon
 662 2012-09-19 13:39:31 <[7]> well standard cell designs are still much better than hardcopys or even easypath
 663 2012-09-19 13:39:55 leotreasure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 664 2012-09-19 13:39:56 leotreasure_ is now known as leotreasure
 665 2012-09-19 13:40:06 <otimm> bitcoin is growing steadily so i'd say we see asic in the next 12 months, but next 3 i am not so sure
 666 2012-09-19 13:40:24 <kjj_> these designs are not like Intel CPU designs with teams of nerds hand carving gates and busses
 667 2012-09-19 13:40:26 Arnavion has joined
 668 2012-09-19 13:41:25 <kjj_> or maybe I'm wrong about that.  I just don't see bitcoin on that scale yet
 669 2012-09-19 13:42:17 <otimm> it is a huge step from fpga to asic indeed
 670 2012-09-19 13:42:41 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 671 2012-09-19 13:43:17 one_zero has quit ()
 672 2012-09-19 13:43:21 <[7]> so... does anybody here think that one will ever need to roll ntime by more than 255 seconds?
 673 2012-09-19 13:45:02 lggr has joined
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 675 2012-09-19 13:46:05 <kjj_> 255 seconds is halfway to the next block already
 676 2012-09-19 13:46:43 <sipa> no, 600 seconds would be halfway to the next block
 677 2012-09-19 13:47:07 <kjj_> 600 seconds would BE the next block.  10*60=600
 678 2012-09-19 13:47:40 <sipa> 600 is the average time between blocks, not the maximum or exact time
 679 2012-09-19 13:48:00 <kjj_> agreed, and nothing stops blocks from moving backwards in time
 680 2012-09-19 13:48:18 <kjj_> still, messing with the timestamp was a hack that needs to die a quick death as soon as possible
 681 2012-09-19 13:49:07 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 682 2012-09-19 13:49:16 <[7]> IMO it would have been much more reasonable to bury the nBits field somewhere in the merkle tree and put 4 bytes of extranonce into the header
 683 2012-09-19 13:49:25 <[7]> that would have avoided all of this mess
 684 2012-09-19 13:49:49 <sipa> the only mess is the current mining protocol; there is nothing technically hard about local work generation
 685 2012-09-19 13:50:07 <[7]> my point is that I'm currently designing a hardware communication protocol which needs to be capable supporting of very high hashrates
 686 2012-09-19 13:50:12 Raccoon` has joined
 687 2012-09-19 13:50:21 <[7]> and doing block generation on the hardware itself isn't really feasible
 688 2012-09-19 13:50:48 <sipa> well, getwork + rollntime is enough for 4GH/s
 689 2012-09-19 13:50:58 <[7]> transferring a new block header for every 4.3GH calculated isn't really feasible either
 690 2012-09-19 13:51:12 <epscy> 4GH/s is more than anybody will ever need
 691 2012-09-19 13:51:17 <kjj_> heh
 692 2012-09-19 13:51:17 <[7]> lol
 693 2012-09-19 13:51:23 <[7]> yeah, 640KB...
 694 2012-09-19 13:51:56 <kjj_> what's wrong with sending half a kilobyte per second per core?
 695 2012-09-19 13:52:50 <kjj_> actually, half a kilobit, not kilobyte.  that's 8 times easier
 696 2012-09-19 13:53:13 <[7]> there are several constraints that make this impractical (it would require large packets of variable size, and it would cause avoidable latencies after new blocks are found)
 697 2012-09-19 13:53:41 <[7]> ah, I thought you meant transferring the data required for on-hardware block generation
 698 2012-09-19 13:54:05 <[7]> and I'm not talking 4GH/s per core here
 699 2012-09-19 13:54:29 <[7]> as this protocol is intended to be somewhat future proof I'd like to push the limit to at least ~1TH/s per core
 700 2012-09-19 13:54:34 <kjj_> by core, I mean ASIC core.
 701 2012-09-19 13:54:40 Diapolo has joined
 702 2012-09-19 13:54:42 <[7]> yes
 703 2012-09-19 13:55:38 <[7]> if people are already working on low-cost ~15GH/s asic chips these days, that'll probably grow to the 3 figure GH/s per chip fairly quickly
 704 2012-09-19 13:56:04 <andyrossy> the cost of the hardware for these ASICs doesnt add up
 705 2012-09-19 13:56:09 <andyrossy> i call pirate mark 2.
 706 2012-09-19 13:56:11 <kjj_> that seems unlikely to me
 707 2012-09-19 13:56:20 <sipa> andyrossy: explain
 708 2012-09-19 13:56:34 <sipa> (not questioning, just interested in what numbers you have)
 709 2012-09-19 13:56:40 shamoon has joined
 710 2012-09-19 13:56:50 <shamoon> super noob question. i'm trying to work on the source code for bitcoin. after i make a change, how do i run it to see the effect? I shouldn't have to make the whole thing for a small change, should i?
 711 2012-09-19 13:56:52 <kjj_> the clock rate is bound, and you can only unroll so far.  more hashes per second is going to mean more cores
 712 2012-09-19 13:57:02 <[7]> shamoon: you do
 713 2012-09-19 13:57:04 <kjj_> shamoon: yes
 714 2012-09-19 13:57:20 <kjj_> the good news is that make is super duper smart and will only rebuild what it must
 715 2012-09-19 13:57:22 <[7]> kjj_: well what is a "core" in your terms?
 716 2012-09-19 13:57:25 <sipa> shamoon: the build system will make sure you don't rebuild parts which aren't changed
 717 2012-09-19 13:57:36 <shamoon> so i need to make it, run the binary and see the impact of my change(s)?
 718 2012-09-19 13:57:40 <gmaxwell> shamoon: make will 'only' recompile the required things, but thats often everything (e.g. if you edit any of several of the headers).
 719 2012-09-19 13:57:40 lggr has joined
 720 2012-09-19 13:57:51 <kjj_> [7]: like a core in your CPU.
 721 2012-09-19 13:57:54 <gmaxwell> shamoon: right.
 722 2012-09-19 13:58:04 <shamoon> okay then, wish me luck as i delve into contributing to this awesome project (hopefully)
 723 2012-09-19 13:58:04 <kjj_> [7]: we can't make those any faster either, so we pile on more of them
 724 2012-09-19 13:58:05 <[7]> well, there are probably hundreds of those inside those asics
 725 2012-09-19 13:58:12 <[7]> but those are abstracted away by the hardware
 726 2012-09-19 13:58:14 <sipa> shamoon: what are you trying to accomplish?
 727 2012-09-19 13:58:16 <shamoon> and thank you all for being so helpful
 728 2012-09-19 13:58:27 <shamoon> nothing yet... going through issues and seeing what i can tackle
 729 2012-09-19 13:58:33 <sipa> ok
 730 2012-09-19 13:58:37 <kjj_> I don't mean a fundamental logic unit or even a group of those.  I mean one unit of sha256
 731 2012-09-19 13:58:40 <shamoon> but step 1 is do SOMETHING to see the impact
 732 2012-09-19 13:58:50 <[7]> so what I usually refer to is a "logical" core, which is usually one (emulated) high-performance mining core per chip
 733 2012-09-19 13:58:56 pnicholson has joined
 734 2012-09-19 13:59:13 <[7]> or whatever is presented to the outside
 735 2012-09-19 13:59:49 <[7]> technically you can view these asics as one huge superscalar core, just like modern CPU cores are
 736 2012-09-19 14:00:19 <[7]> (each CPU core also has multiple execution units that work in parallel if possible, but that parallelism can be exploited to a much higher degree on that kind of chips)
 737 2012-09-19 14:00:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm seeing a very weird big here... valgrind only shows one error, in a stack trace 4 deep, sha256 being called on a null pointer; gdb shows a stack trace 1000s deep, all garbage
 738 2012-09-19 14:00:32 shamoon has left ()
 739 2012-09-19 14:00:36 <kjj_> still, say the BFL minirig is a single chip.  1 TH/sec requires ~250 midstates per second, or 16000 bytes
 740 2012-09-19 14:00:43 <sipa> stack corruption for sure, but why didn't catch valgrind the corruption earlier
 741 2012-09-19 14:01:11 <gmaxwell> [7]: I'm still not following what your issue is here. At 100 getworks/sec with 8 bits of time rolling, you get 109TH/s of capacity.
 742 2012-09-19 14:01:33 <[7]> the point is that I want to offload as much of this as practically possible to the hardware
 743 2012-09-19 14:01:49 <sipa> well it's not *impossible* to do work generation on the hardware
 744 2012-09-19 14:01:51 <[7]> so I don't have to send 100 requests to each device per second, but more like one per second with a +100 ntime range
 745 2012-09-19 14:01:56 <sipa> it's just somewhat more sha256
 746 2012-09-19 14:02:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 747 2012-09-19 14:02:10 <[7]> sipa: pushing the required data to the hardware is the bigger problem here
 748 2012-09-19 14:02:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: use exp-ptr-check too in valgrind. (er, that got renamed one minute while I remember the new name is) memcheck is kinda lossy for the stack, but I dunno why stackguard isn't catching it either.
 749 2012-09-19 14:02:36 <gmaxwell> [7]: thats not a goal; it's a mechenism. You might as well be telling us that it has to be a miner made of meat.
 750 2012-09-19 14:03:03 copumpkin has joined
 751 2012-09-19 14:03:34 <[7]> well, I'm not asking you to design the protocol, I'm just asking if you consider it feasible to go past +255 ntime one day, and providing some reasoning why I think this might be wanted at some point
 752 2012-09-19 14:04:06 Diapolo has left ()
 753 2012-09-19 14:04:33 <kjj_> I still say that messing with the timestamp was a hack that needs to die a quick death as soon as possible
 754 2012-09-19 14:04:42 <gmaxwell> [7]: whats the reasoning? ntime +255 gets you 100TH/s on 100getworks/s.
 755 2012-09-19 14:04:48 Clipse has joined
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 758 2012-09-19 14:05:03 <sipa> [7]: pushing the data to the device... if you can get 464 bytes (header + 12 merkle path entries) to the device every time the block (or some transactions) changes, you can support +infinity hashrate
 759 2012-09-19 14:05:25 BitcoinBaltar has joined
 760 2012-09-19 14:05:49 <[7]> where does that 12 limit come from?
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 763 2012-09-19 14:06:08 <[7]> why can't there be more than 4K txns per block?
 764 2012-09-19 14:06:18 <gmaxwell> Because there is a maximum blocksize of 1MB.
 765 2012-09-19 14:06:29 <[7]> that's all stuff that's likely to change at some point though
 766 2012-09-19 14:06:45 <[7]> 4k txns per block probably won't be sufficient in a couple of years
 767 2012-09-19 14:06:52 Raccoon` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 768 2012-09-19 14:06:58 <gmaxwell> I'm skeptical about that, but it seems very clear to me that you're just adding constraints to preserve your goal.
 769 2012-09-19 14:07:35 <[7]> well I can think of two ways to get this done:
 770 2012-09-19 14:07:44 <gmaxwell> [7]: If there isn't block space scarcity bitcoin makes no economic sense. It might make sense to increase it somewhat in the far future, but it must remain scarce or security can't be funded.
 771 2012-09-19 14:07:58 <kjj_> but so what?  say 24 entries in the merkle table.  still under a kilobyte
 772 2012-09-19 14:08:00 <sipa> [7]: changing that requires a hardfork, and I don't expect that will happen without a 1- or 2-year advance planning
 773 2012-09-19 14:08:01 <gmaxwell> And going from 12 to 16 doesn't change the data size numbers much.
 774 2012-09-19 14:08:10 <[7]> I still wouldn't dare to hardwire that 12 number in my code though
 775 2012-09-19 14:08:39 <sipa> but indeed, make it 64 merkle entries if you want, and do it under 4K data per update, and support more transactions per block than there have been hashes performed to date
 776 2012-09-19 14:09:03 <sipa> [7]: how long do you figure your protocol will be useful?
 777 2012-09-19 14:09:09 <gmaxwell> or indeed, that.
 778 2012-09-19 14:09:49 <sipa> 2128 bytes per update, to be precise
 779 2012-09-19 14:09:50 <[7]> my experience tells me that protocols generally will be useful for much shorter than anticipated, so one should better add some safety margin
 780 2012-09-19 14:09:52 <gavinandresen> yeah, do what sipa and gmaxwell said, have the hardware compute the merkle root and you're good forever.
 781 2012-09-19 14:10:27 lggr has joined
 782 2012-09-19 14:10:33 <[7]> well, that's one possibility, letting the hardware work fully autonomously, just pushing merkle tree updates everytime you decide you want to include new TXNs
 783 2012-09-19 14:10:59 <[7]> and thus allow broadcasting of *one* set of data to all devices after a new block is found, eliminating that traffic storm
 784 2012-09-19 14:11:48 <[7]> (with the different cores working on different starting extranonces that get set up during boot)
 785 2012-09-19 14:12:18 <kjj_> USB even does broadcasting, so you get transaction updates nearly for free, regardless of your cluster size
 786 2012-09-19 14:12:31 <gavinandresen> seems like the simplest solution to me.  A 256-bit extranonce space is plenty big enough to start with a globally unique, random nonce
 787 2012-09-19 14:12:34 <[7]> kjj_: er, what?
 788 2012-09-19 14:12:44 <[7]> I never heard of USB broadcasts...
 789 2012-09-19 14:13:03 <[7]> but I don't need them either, so that's fine
 790 2012-09-19 14:13:05 <[7]> so while that might be the ideal long term solution, it just won't work with most of today's mining pools
 791 2012-09-19 14:13:34 <[7]> many of those work with rollntime at the best
 792 2012-09-19 14:14:00 <kjj_> all devices on a USB branch see everything the host says.  they just ignore things that don't have their own address in the header
 793 2012-09-19 14:14:04 <sipa> [7]: i think betting on the existance of the current-style centralized mining pool is a far less safe bet, than betting on there not being more than 4000 tx/block any time soon
 794 2012-09-19 14:14:15 <[7]> kjj_: that's not true at all
 795 2012-09-19 14:14:44 <[7]> sipa: sure, I'm just wondering if I need to implement two separate models or if I can merge this somehow
 796 2012-09-19 14:15:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 797 2012-09-19 14:15:13 <kjj_> [7]: you sure?  the docs I'm looking at right now make that pretty clear
 798 2012-09-19 14:15:41 <[7]> kjj_: at least as soon as hubs are involved, which they usually are (and the host's root ports form a hub for that matter as well)
 799 2012-09-19 14:15:49 Raccoon` has joined
 800 2012-09-19 14:16:21 <kjj_> upstream traffic only goes towards the host, but downstream traffic is replicated to all downstream ports
 801 2012-09-19 14:17:12 <[7]> traffic to address 0 might possibly be broadcast, but I'm fairly sure that at least USB2 hubs need to learn their device's addresses
 802 2012-09-19 14:17:55 <[7]> if a high speed hub has a full speed device on it, the highspeed bus will be released while the fullspeed transfer is in progress, with split transactions and that kind of stuff
 803 2012-09-19 14:17:56 <kjj_> that sounds like a pointless complication.  it isn't like an ethernet switched fabric where slaves can talk to each other
 804 2012-09-19 14:19:02 <[7]> anyway, relying on any kind of USB broadcast would be massively standards-incompliant
 805 2012-09-19 14:19:08 <[7]> and probably not work at all with most usb chipsets
 806 2012-09-19 14:19:35 lggr has joined
 807 2012-09-19 14:20:43 <kjj_> actually, a google search for "microcontroller usb bus snooping" is surprisingly encouraging
 808 2012-09-19 14:21:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: any idea what that exp-ptr-check is called now?
 809 2012-09-19 14:22:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: sgcheck
 810 2012-09-19 14:23:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/sg-manual.html
 811 2012-09-19 14:23:47 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 813 2012-09-19 14:24:36 <sipa> meh, not installed
 814 2012-09-19 14:25:02 <gmaxwell> might be called exp-ptrcheck on the version you have.
 815 2012-09-19 14:25:14 Raccoon has joined
 816 2012-09-19 14:25:45 <sipa> ah, exp-sgcheck
 817 2012-09-19 14:25:46 <sipa> !
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 819 2012-09-19 14:27:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: looks excessively slow, but i'll let it run :)
 820 2012-09-19 14:28:11 <gmaxwell> It's slower, indeed.
 821 2012-09-19 14:28:21 <sipa> in memcheck it already takes hours to reproduce
 822 2012-09-19 14:33:35 tower has joined
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 826 2012-09-19 14:39:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: after 15 minutes: wallet is loaded :)
 827 2012-09-19 14:42:55 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 829 2012-09-19 14:47:17 tower has joined
 830 2012-09-19 14:48:22 <gmaxwell> I wonder if there is money to be made running an online program to help people with gambling addiction. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=80312.msg1201785#msg1201785  0_o
 831 2012-09-19 14:49:23 Raccoon has joined
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 833 2012-09-19 14:54:17 lggr has joined
 834 2012-09-19 14:55:19 <[7]> btw, does the stratum protocol allow for a client to specify its desired difficulty?
 835 2012-09-19 14:56:06 <slush> [7]: no, difficulty is driven by server
 836 2012-09-19 14:56:29 <slush> [7]: but server can provide a tool (on user profile?) to specify requested difficulty, of course. Then it's not a matter of protocol
 837 2012-09-19 14:57:14 <[7]> is there a particular reason for not letting the client hint the server at an adequate difficulty?
 838 2012-09-19 14:57:46 <slush> [7]: well, as a hint - maybe yes. But still the server will do the final decision
 839 2012-09-19 14:58:00 <[7]> sure, makes sense for the servers to bound it
 840 2012-09-19 14:58:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 841 2012-09-19 14:58:41 <slush> but the retargeting of newly connected miner is quite fast, so I think leaving it to "autopilot" is good enough
 842 2012-09-19 14:59:25 <slush> there are two implementations at the time. afaik btcguild is retargeting every 10 seconds, I'm retargeting every 100 submits and on new block
 843 2012-09-19 15:01:40 <slush> [7]: every 100 submits to push difficulty higher and on new bitcoin block to push difficulty higher for workers who slower down for some reason
 844 2012-09-19 15:02:30 <slush> on new block to push it lower, of course :)
 845 2012-09-19 15:02:52 <[7]> do you do it per connection, per worker account, or per user account?
 846 2012-09-19 15:02:58 <slush> per connection
 847 2012-09-19 15:03:03 <[7]> and what's your target?
 848 2012-09-19 15:03:29 <slush> I'm not decided yet. Ideally 5-10 seconds per share
 849 2012-09-19 15:03:45 <[7]> people might prefer variance over bandwidth or the other way round
 850 2012-09-19 15:04:09 <slush> but I'll probably have also per-backend limit to be sure everything will balance automatically when some huge join it.
 851 2012-09-19 15:04:30 <slush> it's better for everybody to push everyone's difficulty a bit high than have unresponsible server
 852 2012-09-19 15:05:19 <[7]> also at which difficulty do you start? 1?
 853 2012-09-19 15:05:42 <[7]> this means that an asic could cause a burst of 100 requests after connecting
 854 2012-09-19 15:06:06 <[7]> whereas a higher initial difficulty would be suboptimal for slow miners which might effectively be solo'ing that way until the next block
 855 2012-09-19 15:06:10 leotreasure_ has joined
 856 2012-09-19 15:06:33 <[7]> so I think at least a way for the miner to tell the server about its expected hashrate while connecting might be helpful
 857 2012-09-19 15:06:55 lggr has joined
 858 2012-09-19 15:08:37 <slush> [7]: I'll add "minimal difficulty" for the worker on profile page
 859 2012-09-19 15:08:43 <slush> actually it's here already, just hidden
 860 2012-09-19 15:09:19 leotreasure has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 861 2012-09-19 15:09:20 leotreasure_ is now known as leotreasure
 862 2012-09-19 15:10:13 <slush> so if somebody connect 1THash/s asic without setting higher difficulty on the profile, there'll be a burst for one second or so, then it retarget him very quickly.
 863 2012-09-19 15:11:19 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 864 2012-09-19 15:12:42 * gavinandresen is glad he doesn't have OCD or he'd waste the entire day on http://xkcd.com/1110/
 865 2012-09-19 15:13:01 <kjj_> I had to stop after a few minutes and go looking in the forums for the cheat
 866 2012-09-19 15:13:08 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 867 2012-09-19 15:13:19 <gavinandresen> I do have enough OCD that I found the bitcoin reference by clicking and dragging....
 868 2012-09-19 15:14:34 lggr has joined
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 871 2012-09-19 15:15:02 <gavinandresen> I heard he hid a private key address with 10 BTC somewhere in there....
 872 2012-09-19 15:15:07 optimator has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 873 2012-09-19 15:15:25 phantomcircuit has joined
 874 2012-09-19 15:15:33 optimator_ is now known as optimator
 875 2012-09-19 15:15:51 * gavinandresen now feels a little guilty about starting rumors
 876 2012-09-19 15:16:08 bebop_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 877 2012-09-19 15:16:12 <kjj_> xkcd's bitcoin reference was the big announcement?
 878 2012-09-19 15:16:51 <gavinandresen> <sarcasm>Yes, that is the Big Announcment(tm)</sarcasm>
 879 2012-09-19 15:18:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 880 2012-09-19 15:19:23 <otimm> i think the private key is hidden in a mine deep underground
 881 2012-09-19 15:19:28 Raccoon has joined
 882 2012-09-19 15:19:34 <kjj_> you should tell people it is so that they can let it go
 883 2012-09-19 15:21:44 <gavinandresen> i heard the private key is in the middle of the sky
 884 2012-09-19 15:22:03 <gavinandresen> wait... or maybe it was split into two parts....
 885 2012-09-19 15:22:40 <gavinandresen> ooh, I know, it is a brain wallet, you have to find all the words beginning with the letter 'w' in the strip....
 886 2012-09-19 15:23:51 <gavinandresen> Seriously, I would like to see more "hide some bitcoins" games.  I bet somebody creative and smart could run a couple of free ones, then maybe charge people to enter later ones (or pay for clues....)
 887 2012-09-19 15:24:05 lggr has joined
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 891 2012-09-19 15:33:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: there's a zoomable version somewhere on the web
 892 2012-09-19 15:33:38 <gavinandresen> sipa: that's cheating
 893 2012-09-19 15:34:15 <sipa> good. ok. carry on.
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 898 2012-09-19 15:38:43 <otimm> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?t=91362&p=3133922
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 913 2012-09-19 15:56:09 <t7> oo that might be the last comic :O
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 916 2012-09-19 15:58:30 <sipa> ?
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 951 2012-09-19 16:52:26 <copumpkin> why do later blocks take longer to download? I've seen the explanation before that fewer nodes on the network have them to serve to you, but isn't the network mostly at roughly the same spot? It seems odd that a significant portion of the network would be missing even 100 of the most recent blocks, and the slowdown starts way before that
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 953 2012-09-19 16:53:59 <gmaxwell> 0_o
 954 2012-09-19 16:54:12 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: who the @#$@# told you that?
 955 2012-09-19 16:54:24 <copumpkin> I've seen it repeated in a few places, can't remember :)
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 957 2012-09-19 16:54:36 <gmaxwell> Pure jibberish. They're slower because they're much much bigger because they're full of transactions; lots of signatures to validate, more data to transfer.
 958 2012-09-19 16:54:42 <copumpkin> ah, fair enough
 959 2012-09-19 16:55:16 <gmaxwell> Also slower because lookups in the txn index slow down the more total transactions there have been. (ultraprune largely fixes this)
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 962 2012-09-19 16:58:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, should eventually be more or less flat time to lookup
 963 2012-09-19 16:58:34 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: assuming that the database scales well. :P
 964 2012-09-19 16:58:39 <phantomcircuit> true
 965 2012-09-19 16:58:59 <gmaxwell> big performance difference between the lookup time being in ram and on disk.
 966 2012-09-19 16:59:19 <phantomcircuit> well assuming that the top part of the binary tree are in ram
 967 2012-09-19 16:59:30 <phantomcircuit> hitting the last bit that's on disk shouldn't be *that* bad
 968 2012-09-19 16:59:36 <phantomcircuit> but of course it will be :)
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 974 2012-09-19 17:05:06 <Ukto> not sure if this has been a discussion yet in here or not. probably.. but lately we have been having many 30+ min blocks, just had a 60+min block.. and diffs stil going up by 7%.. to me.. it seems the higher the diff, the larger a variance... have there been any thoughts on this?
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 978 2012-09-19 17:07:31 <gmaxwell> Ukto: higher difficulties don't result in larger variance. (assuming they're matched to the hashrate.
 979 2012-09-19 17:07:52 <Ukto> hmm
 980 2012-09-19 17:07:59 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,tblb 30m
 981 2012-09-19 17:08:03 <gribble> 4 hours, 30 minutes, and 24 seconds
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 985 2012-09-19 17:08:27 <Ukto> I just think its strange that were getting 30~60min blocks pretty common, and having to go up in diff :/
 986 2012-09-19 17:08:29 <gmaxwell> ^ see, many 30+ minute blocks are expecected... one every 4.5 hours or so on average.
 987 2012-09-19 17:08:52 <Ukto> oh, ill see them 3~5 in a row :/
 988 2012-09-19 17:09:21 <gmaxwell> Ukto: yes, that happens too.
 989 2012-09-19 17:09:24 <Ukto> ;;bc,tblb 60m
 990 2012-09-19 17:09:25 <gribble> 5 days, 19 hours, 24 minutes, and 58 seconds
 991 2012-09-19 17:09:42 <gmaxwell> Ukto: also, are you looking at block timestamps? because they're lies and fantasies. ;P
 992 2012-09-19 17:09:54 <Ukto> no, I am watching LP's
 993 2012-09-19 17:10:14 <Ukto> the project I am working on, reqires me to wait for each LP to triggr to debug
 994 2012-09-19 17:10:30 <gmaxwell> Ukto: well pools dork around with LPs to screw with hoppers.
 995 2012-09-19 17:10:32 <Ukto> so i get stuck watching a lot of logs fly by for that percise moment :P
 996 2012-09-19 17:10:45 <Ukto> well, i am watching for actual block changes
 997 2012-09-19 17:10:47 <Ukto> not just from lp
 998 2012-09-19 17:10:56 <Ukto> i am waiting for block changes
 999 2012-09-19 17:10:59 <Ukto> so test my LP software
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1001 2012-09-19 17:11:40 <gmaxwell> In any case, block times are random. They have an expected value. What you're telling me so far isn't inconsistent with the expected behavior.
1002 2012-09-19 17:11:54 <Ukto> k, just asking :)
1003 2012-09-19 17:12:03 <Ukto> you guys know alot more about that side of things than I do by zillions. :)
1004 2012-09-19 17:15:05 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1005 2012-09-19 17:16:14 <gmaxwell> It's always fine to ask.
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1041 2012-09-19 18:06:55 <BlueMatt> ahh xkcd..."If you're having fencepost errors I feel bad for you, son - I got 99 problems but somehow solved 101"
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1043 2012-09-19 18:09:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not familar with a current failure mode where we get stuck when peers offer us a new block.
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1045 2012-09-19 18:10:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: outside of my own experience recently, IRC and forums still pop up "I am well connected, but not advancing" reports
1046 2012-09-19 18:11:05 <jgarzik> if they are well connected, they are getting block offers
1047 2012-09-19 18:11:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes, I've seen those reports, but thus far as far as I can tell (big hunk of salt) all were resolved by simply waiting for the next block.
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1049 2012-09-19 18:11:26 <gmaxwell> hmph.
1050 2012-09-19 18:11:41 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no the public node running git HEAD was stuck 1000 blocks behind
1051 2012-09-19 18:11:42 <gmaxwell> (well, all where it wasn't due to having already rejected the real chain; seen a bunch of those)
1052 2012-09-19 18:12:00 <jgarzik> "stuck" is at least a day behind, in my book
1053 2012-09-19 18:12:14 <helo> i can't get over how nice raw transactions and the debug console is
1054 2012-09-19 18:12:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well crap. Thats bad.
1055 2012-09-19 18:13:28 <helo> its a great way to learn too
1056 2012-09-19 18:13:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: might be interesting to loadblocks initilize 1000 blocks behind, and then disable getblocks.
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1059 2012-09-19 18:14:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: note, I do not claim #1834 fixes this problem... only closes one window.  #1834 should eliminate a possible multi-hour pause, before things straighten out.
1060 2012-09-19 18:16:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Sure, I understand what you're doing that. I'm not sure that the workaround is wise. If this happens to a miner its an extreme fork creation risk, with or without that change... but it may be harder to track down with it in.
1061 2012-09-19 18:16:22 <gmaxwell> er why youre doing that*  (now)
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1063 2012-09-19 18:18:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. whatever is happening there happens to a major pool and we get a third of the hashpower mining some fork for an hour.
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1065 2012-09-19 18:19:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: that is not really applicable to #1834
1066 2012-09-19 18:20:48 <gmaxwell> It's applicable to the root issue behind whatever is motivating 1835.
1067 2012-09-19 18:21:29 <gmaxwell> My concern on 1834 is gone, so long as it's only about initial selection. Though it may exacerbate the risk from whatever the heck that won't-reorg bug you hit was.
1068 2012-09-19 18:21:39 <gmaxwell> but better to just worry about that root problem.
1069 2012-09-19 18:21:56 <gmaxwell> I'm trying to reproduce your stuckness.
1070 2012-09-19 18:23:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: the public node was getting tons of incoming connections, plus the normal 8 outgoing, and was just over 1000 blocks behind.  was git HEAD circa 1000+144 blocks ago.  _very_ well connected.  restarted and it successfully verified and caught up.
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1074 2012-09-19 18:23:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: #1835 adds a guarantee that is harmless if wrong:  we send extra getblocks that turn out to be unneeded
1075 2012-09-19 18:23:50 <jgarzik> but useful if correct
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1077 2012-09-19 18:24:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: how many incoming connections?
1078 2012-09-19 18:25:05 <gmaxwell> (just curious)
1079 2012-09-19 18:25:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: 80-100
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1081 2012-09-19 18:26:12 <gmaxwell> All bitcoinj? :P  heh  but yea, I believe what you saw. Just need to figure out how to reproduce. I've never seen that, and I have a half dozen nodes running, some public some not.
1082 2012-09-19 18:27:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I just have some concern that 1835 doesn't really reduce the risk of the underlying issue it works around, but it may make the cause harder to find because it 'fixes' it (well, if it indeed does— not sure why a getblocks would unstick it) before its far enough behind to be obviously broken beyond the regular expected lag.
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1087 2012-09-19 18:31:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: #1834 is separate from #1835 for reasons like this.  #1834 is a bug fix, while #1835 is a fix attempt.
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1089 2012-09-19 18:33:31 <gmaxwell> Yes, I'm fine with 1834 now. (which I also said on it last night; I was a dipshit and didn't read the patch, only the title, and thought it was a change to never attempt to fetch a block from a node claiming a count lower than ours)
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1092 2012-09-19 18:38:06 <jgarzik> or heck, just send getblocks to everybody and let God sort it out
1093 2012-09-19 18:38:12 <jgarzik> ;p
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1097 2012-09-19 18:39:29 <gmaxwell> if getblocks unsticks it!
1098 2012-09-19 18:40:34 <jgarzik> More generally, the P2P code needs to spread out its getblock and getdata requests across peers
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1102 2012-09-19 18:42:02 <jgarzik> that also solves the common problem of pausing for hours, expecting the remote peer to send more data
1103 2012-09-19 18:42:15 <jgarzik> but it never does (or does so very slowly)
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1108 2012-09-19 18:47:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: that problem— of _hours_— shouldn't™  exist.
1109 2012-09-19 18:47:47 <gmaxwell> it should pause but only until the next network block comes in then it'll begin fetching from the peer that gave it the network block.
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1111 2012-09-19 18:48:35 <gmaxwell> And this does work, at least sometimes. If it doesn't work always then thats interest.. of course that doesn't replace smarter fetching generally.
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1113 2012-09-19 18:48:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: note that PushGetBlocks filters out duplicate requests
1114 2012-09-19 18:49:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: so what seems like a request, from reading main.cpp, may not reach the remote
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1118 2012-09-19 18:51:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: also, "strange getblocks behavior" continues to occur each time a new network block is seen
1119 2012-09-19 18:51:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: e.g. my public nodes see
1120 2012-09-19 18:51:16 <jgarzik> getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
1121 2012-09-19 18:51:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: immediately after SetBestChain() success
1122 2012-09-19 18:51:34 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: over and over again.
1123 2012-09-19 18:51:52 <jgarzik> you also see the same heights requested, over and over again
1124 2012-09-19 18:51:55 <jgarzik> getblocks 153057 to 00000000000006276718 limit 500
1125 2012-09-19 18:51:55 <jgarzik>   getblocks stopping at limit 153556 0000000000000b6c4308
1126 2012-09-19 18:52:08 <jgarzik> repeats at each SetBestChain()
1127 2012-09-19 18:53:03 <jgarzik> one expects such getblocks triggered as you say... but the same height requested repeatedly with each SetBestChain() implies an odd condition
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1129 2012-09-19 18:53:47 <jgarzik> "with each SetBestChain()" is shorthand for "following each new network block event", if that is not clear...  SetBestChain is simply a readily visible marker in the log for this behavior
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1141 2012-09-19 19:06:16 <jgarzik> ASIC update:  BFL does burn-in testing on a live pool, EMC, for ~24 hours before packing and shipping
1142 2012-09-19 19:07:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm, are they shipping product already?
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1144 2012-09-19 19:08:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no.  BFL_Josh was describing their current product procedure, with the implication that that will continue for future products.
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1152 2012-09-19 19:21:35 <_dr> i'll be happy to see the 'experts', formerly assuring that notime sooner than 12 months before we'll see asics, proclaiming 'yeah, i knew bfl would deliver'
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1155 2012-09-19 19:22:01 <gmaxwell> _dr: who are you talking about?
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1158 2012-09-19 19:22:36 <_dr> i'm just quoting form the backlog
1159 2012-09-19 19:26:13 <gmaxwell> _dr: your message above is the only 'time sooner than 12 months' in the bitcoin-dev log, I'm confused about what you're quoting.
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1161 2012-09-19 19:28:14 <_dr> someone was saying it would probably take 12 months before asics will arrive. however, it was not meant as a critique against that particular person. just wanted to point out that the numbers people are coming up with are somewhat interesting
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1163 2012-09-19 19:28:53 <_dr> why would it take 12 months to create a stupid chip which has almost no control logic and and array of (probably improved freely available) sha256 soft-ips
1164 2012-09-19 19:29:33 <kjj_> heh.  there are no bitcoin hashing engines that are freely available to be just dropped in
1165 2012-09-19 19:29:49 <_dr> yes, but they are trivial
1166 2012-09-19 19:30:46 <jgarzik> silicon and PCB engineering and fabbing is the most trivial thing on the planet.  even my Aunt Tillie can do it, these days.
1167 2012-09-19 19:31:29 <_dr> it's an automated process, isn't it? i know that it takes a lot of expertise, but it won't take someone to design a chip that long
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1169 2012-09-19 19:31:34 <sipa> i think the actual gate logic is the smallest problem
1170 2012-09-19 19:31:43 <sipa> and the largest problem is the economics
1171 2012-09-19 19:32:13 <_dr> in fact, some colleague at the chair i work teaches an asic class and they let students help design a cpu and already did their tape out (they started several months ago)
1172 2012-09-19 19:33:20 <gmaxwell> _dr: it's harder when you're not targeting mundane process and when you're actually pushing the performance envelope.
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1174 2012-09-19 19:34:57 <_dr> gmaxwell: i totally agree. all i was trying to say was to take all these 'no way they're for real!', 'no way will asics hit in the next 12 months' with a grain of salt
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1176 2012-09-19 19:35:56 <gmaxwell> _dr: oh yea. Okay. I asked for the clarification just because I didn't know if you were also picking on the moderate positions. "Thats a risky thing to drop funds on" ::nods:: sounds like we agree.
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1178 2012-09-19 19:36:55 <_dr> of course i'm psychologically inclined to side with BFLs claims, since i pre-ordered
1179 2012-09-19 19:36:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: reproduced in sgcheck... no errors at all
1180 2012-09-19 19:36:59 <_dr> but i agree :)
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1182 2012-09-19 19:38:38 <gmaxwell> _dr: The point I've made to people is just that so far they've missed every deadline, and underperformed every spec.. but delivered. Though an asic run has high NRE, and if they flub it they may not be able to afford a respin. And their (initial at least, they took them down) sounded very agressive— unachievable on 130nm. But other than that... sure.
1183 2012-09-19 19:39:46 <_dr> i also expect them to lower their specs, but i'm still optimistic they'll deliver 'something' :)
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1185 2012-09-19 19:42:57 <gmaxwell> _dr: well, if the lack of funds recovery in the pirate40 case is a useful data point; it might not be rational to do anything than take the funds and vanish. :(
1186 2012-09-19 19:46:34 <_dr> sorry, couldn't hear you over all my humming. but seriously, sure... could happen. otoh, they delivered their fpgas. seems like an awful lot of trouble to set up a scam like this.
1187 2012-09-19 19:47:00 <gmaxwell> Agreed.
1188 2012-09-19 19:47:50 <_dr> of course, there's also the fact that computer scientists have moral and are nice, they wouldn't do such a thing :)
1189 2012-09-19 19:47:52 <sipa> also, they're not some anonymous entity like mybitcoin or pirateat40
1190 2012-09-19 19:48:16 optimator has joined
1191 2012-09-19 19:48:33 <sipa> ... or satoshi
1192 2012-09-19 19:48:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: pirateat40 isn't an anonymous entity however. His name and other info has been well known since long before it, many people met him at the vegas event.
1193 2012-09-19 19:48:36 <_dr> when i read the pirate thread, form the language my brain rapidly extracted 'bankster - do not trust':)
1194 2012-09-19 19:48:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: really? :s
1195 2012-09-19 19:49:25 <gmaxwell> Really.
1196 2012-09-19 19:49:34 <sipa> why aren't people suing him?
1197 2012-09-19 19:49:53 <_dr> or shooting him
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1200 2012-09-19 19:50:30 <maaku> i think there's a thread on the forums about just that
1201 2012-09-19 19:50:35 <maaku> suing, not shooting
1202 2012-09-19 19:50:38 <kjj_> more than one
1203 2012-09-19 19:50:52 <gmaxwell> who the heck knows?   Because he said if you do you'll be inelegable to be paid back? (he did, dunno if anyone cares)  Because they feel stupid for falling for it?  Because they only put stolen funds with him?  Because they think that they can't take a bitcoin contract dispute to a regular court?
1204 2012-09-19 19:51:13 <gmaxwell> Because they're lazy and resigned to the loss?
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1206 2012-09-19 19:51:34 <kjj_> I think they need to first convince a lawyer that they gave the bitcoins to him for something
1207 2012-09-19 19:52:07 <_dr> well, if anything i know that laws pertaining to financial fraud in the us can't be very good :D
1208 2012-09-19 19:52:10 <gmaxwell> kjj_: this shouldn't be a problem. The paper trail is a mile long.
1209 2012-09-19 19:53:14 <kjj_> I suspect that some of the documentation is kinda sketchy
1210 2012-09-19 19:53:25 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's expected that fraud has low report rates, whatever the reasons are. It's not a bitcoin unique thing, its one of the reasons fraud is as attractive as it is.
1211 2012-09-19 19:53:53 <kjj_> say GLBSE disappeared tomorrow.  I'm not sure that I have anything that really shows that I sent the bitcoins to the exchange for investing (rather than a donation)
1212 2012-09-19 19:53:54 <gmaxwell> kjj_: In civil litigation the bar is not terribly high. And pirate has not appeared too careful.
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1215 2012-09-19 19:54:41 <kjj_> I've never dealt with pirate, so I don't know what people that dealt with him have for paperwork
1216 2012-09-19 19:55:02 <gmaxwell> kjj_: it's perfectly possible to prevail in court over purely verbal agreements. Preponderance of the evidence, you know.
1217 2012-09-19 19:55:39 <kjj_> still, I'd be nervous about going first
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1249 2012-09-19 21:15:46 <zooko> jgarzik: did you make some decisions about dforum design and Tahoe-LAFS?
1250 2012-09-19 21:16:39 <jgarzik> zooko: trying to let things percolate in my brain
1251 2012-09-19 21:16:56 <zooko> Cool.
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1256 2012-09-19 21:23:35 <DBordello> Does the wallet need to be unlocked to generate a new address?  (CLI)
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1258 2012-09-19 21:25:28 <jgarzik> DBordello: strictly speaking yes, because an address requires a private key
1259 2012-09-19 21:25:58 <jgarzik> DBordello: but it is possible to pregenerate addresses, and "request a new address" from the pre-generated pool
1260 2012-09-19 21:26:16 <DBordello> jgarzik, ah, I was thinking it might be possible to encrypt the private key without the passprhase
1261 2012-09-19 21:26:21 <DBordello> Thanks
1262 2012-09-19 21:26:31 <DBordello> I'll stick with the pregenerated addresses then
1263 2012-09-19 21:27:02 <sipa> the wallet encryption is symmetric, so no
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1266 2012-09-19 21:29:38 <etotheipi_> Any reason why Armory would not longer be able to complete the handshake with Bitcoin-Qt after upgrading to 0.7.0?
1267 2012-09-19 21:29:44 <etotheipi_> or disconnect/blacklist logic?
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1269 2012-09-19 21:30:14 <sipa> nothing obvious i can think of
1270 2012-09-19 21:31:07 <etotheipi_> what can I look for in the debug log?
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1272 2012-09-19 21:31:40 <sipa> try git-bisecting between 0.6.0 and 0.7.0, to see which commit broke it?
1273 2012-09-19 21:32:07 <etotheipi_> well, it may not be broken... well on testnet it APPEARS to be
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1275 2012-09-19 21:32:24 <kjj_> were you working around the port increment issue?
1276 2012-09-19 21:32:24 <etotheipi_> if nothing comes to mind (like no protocol tweaks), I'll keep digging, myself
1277 2012-09-19 21:32:55 <Luke-Jr> 0.6.1..0.7.0 might be slightly easier
1278 2012-09-19 21:33:40 <etotheipi_> not a port issue, because it definitely detects the Satoshi client properly
1279 2012-09-19 21:33:44 <etotheipi_> and it tries to to connect
1280 2012-09-19 21:34:06 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: well testnet is totally rebooted.
1281 2012-09-19 21:34:14 <sipa> oh, testnet3 is new in 0.7.0
1282 2012-09-19 21:34:15 <gmaxwell> it's a different protocol version on testnet now.
1283 2012-09-19 21:34:31 <gmaxwell> see /topic :)
1284 2012-09-19 21:35:28 <etotheipi_> oh
1285 2012-09-19 21:35:36 <etotheipi_> is there a two sentence summary?
1286 2012-09-19 21:35:46 <etotheipi_> and what do you mean by "see /topic"?
1287 2012-09-19 21:36:11 <sipa> the topic here mentions "testnet restarted in 0.7.0"
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1289 2012-09-19 21:36:44 <sipa> and testnet3 has different magic bytes
1290 2012-09-19 21:36:54 <etotheipi_> what is:  "PROCESSMESSAGE MESSAGESTART NOT FOUND"
1291 2012-09-19 21:37:31 <sipa> every bitcoin message is prefixed by 4 magic bytes
1292 2012-09-19 21:37:32 <etotheipi_> oh, different magic bytes will do it
1293 2012-09-19 21:37:56 <sipa> see commit a9d811a9760
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1296 2012-09-19 21:40:21 <etotheipi_> new genesis block, too
1297 2012-09-19 21:40:25 <etotheipi_> different home dir
1298 2012-09-19 21:40:30 <etotheipi_> okay, great to know!
1299 2012-09-19 21:42:56 <etotheipi_> so from now on, testnet dir will actually be ~/.bitcoin/testnet3  ?
1300 2012-09-19 21:43:03 <gmaxwell> Correct.
1301 2012-09-19 21:44:09 <sipa> until we get a next testnet... testnet3.1, testnet3.14, testnet3.141, ...
1302 2012-09-19 21:45:44 <etotheipi_> blockexplorer.com/testnet is testnet3, now?
1303 2012-09-19 21:46:06 <gmaxwell> yes, and the faucet.
1304 2012-09-19 21:46:42 <etotheipi_> is the "addrByte" still the same?
1305 2012-09-19 21:46:47 <etotheipi_> 0x6f
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1309 2012-09-19 21:47:56 <gmaxwell> yes.
1310 2012-09-19 21:48:44 <diki> Couldn't find any info on the wiki, but what is shortest possible Bitcoin address? In this article https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes it is mentioned that an address can be up to 34 characters(possible more?) but not the minimum.
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1314 2012-09-19 21:50:49 <kjj_> if I had to guess, I'd say likely to be this one:
1315 2012-09-19 21:50:50 <kjj_> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1QLbz7JHiBTspS962RLKV8GndWFwi5j6Qr
1316 2012-09-19 21:51:09 <kjj_> no, wait, that's the longest.
1317 2012-09-19 21:51:16 <kjj_> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1111111111111111111114oLvT2
1318 2012-09-19 21:51:23 <kjj_> that's the shortest
1319 2012-09-19 21:51:43 <diki> Thanks.
1320 2012-09-19 21:51:49 <etotheipi_> fantastic, "Handshake finished, connection open!"
1321 2012-09-19 21:51:52 <etotheipi_> thanks guys
1322 2012-09-19 21:52:13 <etotheipi_> lol, wait... can someone send me some testnet coins?  :)
1323 2012-09-19 21:52:30 <etotheipi_> mrnPvwkqSHuL5c9CGfUGcuYVzhT4rfFNPq
1324 2012-09-19 21:52:56 <kjj_> diki: on the network however, they are all the same 160 bits long.  the length is only variable in the base58 encoding
1325 2012-09-19 21:54:15 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: sent you some.
1326 2012-09-19 21:54:16 <diki> Yes, I know the ripemd160 hash is exactly 20 bytes.
1327 2012-09-19 21:55:09 <etotheipi_> thanks gmaxwell
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1336 2012-09-19 22:05:45 <gavinandresen> etotheipi_: http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/  was working last I checked
1337 2012-09-19 22:07:25 <etotheipi_> gavinandresen: good call, I forgot about that site
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1348 2012-09-19 22:21:22 <diki> Flo Rida has some nice tunes this year.
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1386 2012-09-19 23:20:18 <jgarzik> <BFL_Josh> Regardless, we aren't testing any ASIC equipment on the live network either now or in the past, so it's pretty immaterial.  We already have a plan, which I explained to several people at the Bitcoin conference on how we are going to handle the live testing when that time comes.
1387 2012-09-19 23:21:23 <Luke-Jr> that doesn't seem logical
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