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11 2012-09-20 00:25:17 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: It's good for their long-term reputation if they don't test them on the live network.
12 2012-09-20 00:25:33 <gmaxwell> testing on testnet would make a lot of sense if they want a public test.
13 2012-09-20 00:25:49 <gmaxwell> esp because testnet has the anti-islanding rule.
14 2012-09-20 00:27:29 <Eliel> Even better if they verifiably test them on testnet :P
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16 2012-09-20 00:28:20 <gmaxwell> well, go convince them to do that.
17 2012-09-20 00:29:36 <Eliel> nah, too sleepy. I'll head to bed now :)
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33 2012-09-20 00:44:15 <sipa> jgarzik: current code doesn't sync after every block; only after IBD, or at multiples of 500 block
34 2012-09-20 00:45:13 <crazyMF> Hello. How to run bitcoind only on IPv4 ? I've tried -onlynet=IPv4 but still get "address family not supported"
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36 2012-09-20 00:45:49 <sipa> crazyMF: that message is from the RPC subsystem; -onlynet only applies to the P2P system
37 2012-09-20 00:46:54 <sipa> jgarzik: anyway, there is no safe way to keep using something like that
38 2012-09-20 00:47:00 <crazyMF> uhhm, how to get more verbose stuff ?
39 2012-09-20 00:47:06 <sipa> crazyMF: -debug
40 2012-09-20 00:47:15 <crazyMF> tried
41 2012-09-20 00:47:18 <crazyMF> same one liner
42 2012-09-20 00:47:39 <crazyMF> do I need some RPC support in kernel ?
43 2012-09-20 00:47:42 <crazyMF> I mean linux kernel
44 2012-09-20 00:48:30 <sipa> heh?
45 2012-09-20 00:48:38 <sipa> what is the problem you're trying to solve?
46 2012-09-20 00:48:42 <gmaxwell> crazyMF: the address family message you're seeing is harmless. It's just the rpc subsystem trying to get a v6 port and failing then continuing on with ipv4 only.
47 2012-09-20 00:49:22 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: I don't see why it would be
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49 2012-09-20 00:50:08 <crazyMF> gmax, I believe that's an error, not a warning, because the process terminates right after that message
50 2012-09-20 00:50:24 <sipa> which version are you running?
51 2012-09-20 00:50:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: btw, got those arm boards in yesterday, just started playing around with them; will probably have time to do some bitcoin benchmarks on them this weekend, if you're interested
52 2012-09-20 00:50:37 <sipa> crazyMF: there was a bug that caused that in 0.7.0rc2
53 2012-09-20 00:50:45 <sipa> but it's fixed in rc3 and final
54 2012-09-20 00:50:51 <crazyMF> bitcoind-0.7.0-rc2
55 2012-09-20 00:50:57 <sipa> there you go :)
56 2012-09-20 00:50:58 <crazyMF> brb :D
57 2012-09-20 00:51:26 <crazyMF> daaamn, manual ebuild writing =(
58 2012-09-20 00:51:34 * Luke-Jr peers
59 2012-09-20 00:52:09 <Luke-Jr> crazyMF: layman -a bitcoin
60 2012-09-20 00:52:50 <crazyMF> emerge layman, I'm on really minimal setup
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62 2012-09-20 00:54:15 <etotheipi_> Is it normal for testnet3 to not propagate transactions well?
63 2012-09-20 00:55:43 <etotheipi_> I'm not receiving any zero-conf, but I'm also testing a new version of Armory that may have broken it (though, when I broadcast a Tx, then request the same tx, Armory does do receive it properly, so it can't be completely broken)
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65 2012-09-20 00:58:35 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: it should propagate transactions exactly like bitcoin.
66 2012-09-20 00:59:30 <etotheipi_> I know it *should*, I'm asking if the test network is dense enough to do it reliably
67 2012-09-20 00:59:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: possible testnet1/2 nodes interfering?
68 2012-09-20 00:59:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, they don't anymore. Won't connect to them.
69 2012-09-20 01:00:21 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: yes, actually because it's so small partitioning shouldn't be an issue. If you have any connections at all, you've probably got a connection to me, and I'm doing most of the mining right now it seems.
70 2012-09-20 01:00:40 <etotheipi_> okay, probably an Armory problem then...
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73 2012-09-20 01:02:23 <etotheipi_> actually, I should be able to verify by logging every message received
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78 2012-09-20 01:13:16 <etotheipi_> interesting... it looks like the tx doesn't even make it to my Bitcoin-Qt (or isn't forwarded)
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80 2012-09-20 01:16:08 <etotheipi_> oh, I did, like 4 minutes later
81 2012-09-20 01:16:19 <etotheipi_> how is it possible for it to propagate that slowly?
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83 2012-09-20 01:20:33 * jgarzik wonder how well UDP hole punching works
84 2012-09-20 01:20:46 <jgarzik> mainly, what might be a typical timeout (and thus required keep-alive interval)
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86 2012-09-20 01:25:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I wonder more about how well TCP hole punching works, if you are looking at it in a bitcoin context
87 2012-09-20 01:25:36 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: pybond / UDP / DHT context
88 2012-09-20 01:26:48 <crazyMF> YAY! 0.7.0 works. One more question. How do I disable writing to debug.log ?
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91 2012-09-20 01:27:16 <sipa> no way to do that; why would you want that?
92 2012-09-20 01:27:30 <sipa> if you really hate debug.log, symlink it to /dev/null or so
93 2012-09-20 01:28:19 <crazyMF> SSD, that's why
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95 2012-09-20 01:29:40 <crazyMF> btw, how big blkindex/0001/etc .dat should get these days?
96 2012-09-20 01:29:53 <kjj_> 1/2/1 GB
97 2012-09-20 01:32:57 <crazyMF> guess it will take some time then
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99 2012-09-20 01:34:19 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: T-Mobile has like 60 second timeout on UDP :/
100 2012-09-20 01:34:57 <Luke-Jr> except port 500 or something like that which some VPN uses
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118 2012-09-20 02:18:46 <diki> EC point multiplication really sucks up cycles.
119 2012-09-20 02:22:07 <Diablo-D3> isnt that the point?
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124 2012-09-20 02:30:49 <gjs278> debug.log should be an damn option
125 2012-09-20 02:30:58 <gjs278> I have mine symlinked to /dev/null too
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127 2012-09-20 02:33:30 <gmaxwell> symlinking it to /dev/null is a not unreasonable thing... though, you 'void your warranty' doing that.â if you have issues and you've canned the log we can't help you
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139 2012-09-20 02:52:16 <gmaxwell> Guest7582: give us Jeff back!
140 2012-09-20 02:52:24 <gmaxwell> 19:41 < B0g4r7> man they're tearing into bfl on the forum
141 2012-09-20 02:52:25 <gmaxwell> 19:41 < B0g4r7> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109349.260
142 2012-09-20 02:52:25 <gmaxwell> 19:42 < B0g4r7> It's a confusing thread.
143 2012-09-20 02:52:25 <gmaxwell> 19:44 < B0g4r7> It's coming out CEO (I think) was convicted of running a mail fraud ponzi.
144 2012-09-20 02:52:28 <gmaxwell> 0_o
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146 2012-09-20 02:52:52 Guest7582 is now known as jgarzik_
147 2012-09-20 02:53:03 <jgarzik_> yeah, saw that
148 2012-09-20 02:53:19 <jgarzik_> I saw "mail fraud", did not see "mail fraud ponzi"
149 2012-09-20 02:55:06 <gmaxwell> okay, perhaps better then; lots of ways to get a mail fraud conviction...
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153 2012-09-20 02:55:56 <gmaxwell> international lottery scam. 0_o
154 2012-09-20 02:56:14 <MrTiggr> ^^ that
155 2012-09-20 02:56:23 <Gladamas> ya, apparently it was that ^^
156 2012-09-20 02:56:24 <MrTiggr> there were 5 or 6 others convicted too
157 2012-09-20 02:56:28 <Gladamas> ya
158 2012-09-20 02:56:39 <MrTiggr> he was held in italy then extradited to usa
159 2012-09-20 02:56:40 <Gladamas> in fact the bfl ceo wasnt the main defendant
160 2012-09-20 02:56:44 <MrTiggr> yerp
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162 2012-09-20 02:58:01 <MrTiggr> not really sure that there is anythign to see there .. i have all the d0x i need if things went sour but it seems a bit like frantic panicked d0x-dropping to me - we've seen it all too often on the forums
163 2012-09-20 02:58:13 <gmaxwell> on the flip side, felony convictions really hurt people's employment prospects; I'd expect a higher density of self employed white-collar excons than would otherwise be expected.
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165 2012-09-20 03:04:16 <MrTiggr> totally agreed
166 2012-09-20 03:04:36 <MrTiggr> i did wonder if running BFL might be a breach of his Parole/Probation terms
167 2012-09-20 03:07:07 <MrTiggr> "The defendant shall not transfer, sell, give away, or otherwise convey any asset with a fair market value in excess of $500 without approval of the Probation Officer until all financial obligations imposed by the Court have been satisfied in full."
168 2012-09-20 03:07:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
169 2012-09-20 03:08:38 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: presumably he's off probation, no?
170 2012-09-20 03:13:30 <MrTiggr> well im not sure
171 2012-09-20 03:13:46 <MrTiggr> it was 2009 he was extradited from italy
172 2012-09-20 03:13:58 <MrTiggr> 2 years sentence iirc
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174 2012-09-20 03:14:17 <MrTiggr> so its possible that he is still under some sort of probation or Parole
175 2012-09-20 03:15:00 <MrTiggr> but i do NOT know for sure ... seems kinda FUDy to me - i've grabbed all the info i can for later if it goes sour ...moving on
176 2012-09-20 03:15:42 <gmaxwell> er. yea, almost certantly. The two year sentence is somewhat surprising... $19 million. The federal points system makes it unusual for people to get short sentences when they can attach big dollar values.
177 2012-09-20 03:16:16 lggr has joined
178 2012-09-20 03:16:48 <MrTiggr> which is why i actually suspect he is out on "good behaviour" and on an extended parole/probo would be my guess ... i bet he would cop shit from his PO for BFL
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181 2012-09-20 03:21:44 <crazyMF> Is there any chance of seeing some multi-core action in bitcoind ?
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185 2012-09-20 03:30:12 <gmaxwell> MrTiggr: nah, the federal system abolished parole, you have to server ~87% of your sentence, probably got shorter time due to cooperation credits or something. (so says my token ex-con contact I just asked :P)
186 2012-09-20 03:32:45 <MrTiggr> :D /me is not USA ( /me is Aus.) so im not 100% on all that law side of things :D i'd lean towards trusting your ex-con :D
187 2012-09-20 03:33:37 <EasyAt> gmaxwell: I believe that is a state by state thing
188 2012-09-20 03:33:54 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: This is all federal.
189 2012-09-20 03:34:29 <EasyAt> oh wow
190 2012-09-20 03:35:04 <EasyAt> That'll be tough on the already over populated prisons
191 2012-09-20 03:35:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
192 2012-09-20 03:36:50 <EasyAt> I guess it was abolishe din '84. nvm
193 2012-09-20 03:37:44 <gmaxwell> yea "why do you think they're over populated" :P
194 2012-09-20 03:38:17 * EasyAt goes back to the kids table :)
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197 2012-09-20 03:39:17 <gmaxwell> well, I didn't know any of this before the aformentioned friend ended up going to prison.
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201 2012-09-20 03:50:22 <galambo> when i buy specialty hardware i make sure the company management are international felons
202 2012-09-20 03:53:56 lggr has joined
203 2012-09-20 03:54:18 <JFK911> galambo: right on. that broadcom guy kicks ass
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205 2012-09-20 03:58:42 <MrTiggr> that sounds like one of those posters "i dont often buy specialy hardware .. but when i do: <insert funny>"
206 2012-09-20 04:01:01 <galambo> it would be funny if the guy has totally turned over a new leaf but organizes the company like a scam because that's all he knows (don't use last names, lol)
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209 2012-09-20 04:02:03 <MrTiggr> im pretty sure there are/have been some major playahs in bitcoin that operate EXACTLY like that galambo
210 2012-09-20 04:03:26 <gmaxwell> galambo: hah
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251 2012-09-20 06:15:49 <jgarzik_> amiller: basic DHT in place, in pybond
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385 2012-09-20 11:00:51 <wumpus> can someone send me some testnet3 coins at mrpHsZRyP9nUKcFnokN4xpEtstddJLZDAt ? thanks
386 2012-09-20 11:02:11 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it seems my build.h hasn't been updated since April despite many different builds since then - any ideas? :/
387 2012-09-20 11:02:32 <otimm> wumpus: http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/
388 2012-09-20 11:03:01 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: just remove it
389 2012-09-20 11:03:13 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: isn't it supposed to be updated automaticalyl?
390 2012-09-20 11:03:18 <wumpus> not if it already exists
391 2012-09-20 11:03:26 <wumpus> afaik
392 2012-09-20 11:03:28 <Luke-Jr> O.o
393 2012-09-20 11:03:50 <wumpus> not sure though
394 2012-09-20 11:04:03 <wumpus> otimm: thanks
395 2012-09-20 11:04:49 lggr has joined
396 2012-09-20 11:04:52 <wumpus> I'm not sure how smart the build.h generator is; if it would write the flie every build, it would result in a make of a few .o files and a link every time
397 2012-09-20 11:06:18 <wumpus> so it should only write the file if something actually changed in the git info it retrieves.. but maybe it does that, I don't know
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402 2012-09-20 11:10:35 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it does, apparently the file moved to a build/ dir, but the compiler is configured to prefer the one in src/ :/
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406 2012-09-20 11:12:57 <wumpus> yes to file moved to build to support shadow builds (ie, building in another directory/filesystem that the source is in) with qmake
407 2012-09-20 11:15:53 <Luke-Jr> right, so the include order just needs to be fixed
408 2012-09-20 11:16:10 <Luke-Jr> weird, even with build.h corrected and make clean'd, I can't get bitcoin-qt's debug window to show the right one
409 2012-09-20 11:16:22 <wumpus> maybe, or you should just remove the build.h in the wrong place, after all it shouldn't ever re-make it
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411 2012-09-20 11:16:40 <Luke-Jr> I did, but that doesn't fix the include order being wrong :p
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413 2012-09-20 11:17:43 <wumpus> there should only be one build.h so include order doesn't matter
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452 2012-09-20 12:31:10 <ielo> hey, does anyone know where i can find kisom?
453 2012-09-20 12:31:23 <sipa> who or what is kisom?
454 2012-09-20 12:31:55 <ielo> hi sipa
455 2012-09-20 12:32:03 <ielo> he used to do some bitcoin dev work i think
456 2012-09-20 12:32:22 <ielo> he once sent me a link to a paper and now i cant find it
457 2012-09-20 12:32:25 <ielo> like 2 years ago
458 2012-09-20 12:32:47 stamit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
459 2012-09-20 12:33:51 <sipa> no such name in the commit history or on the forum
460 2012-09-20 12:33:52 <LolcustBackup> what was the paper about, lelo ?
461 2012-09-20 12:35:53 <ielo> LolcustBackup, there was one paper about a digital currency predating bitcoin, it was hypothetical, it wasn't that old either
462 2012-09-20 12:36:23 <ielo> LolcustBackup, and there was also a bunch of papers about cypherpunk stuff, and those ones all came from one place, like onion routing and stuff
463 2012-09-20 12:36:49 lggr has joined
464 2012-09-20 12:37:46 <ielo> sipa, is there any name like kyle isom
465 2012-09-20 12:38:40 <sipa> can't find anything, no
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467 2012-09-20 12:39:27 <ielo> sipa, thanks anyhow
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513 2012-09-20 13:43:16 <Luke-Jr> Is iso646.h allowed in bitcoind code? :P
514 2012-09-20 13:43:27 stamit has joined
515 2012-09-20 13:43:59 <sipa> why...?
516 2012-09-20 13:45:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: j/w
517 2012-09-20 13:45:38 <Luke-Jr> that's basically what came to mind when I stumbled upon it :P
518 2012-09-20 13:45:44 <Luke-Jr> ("why�")
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550 2012-09-20 14:33:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: is the coverage report of the canonical branch up to date>
551 2012-09-20 14:33:34 <sipa> ?
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636 2012-09-20 17:17:24 <knotwork> bitcoind died again: bitcoin-rpchand[11220] general protection ip:4dcffa sp:7fea713d4be0 error:0 in bitcoind[400000+3a0000]
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641 2012-09-20 17:20:28 <knotwork> gdb says args is undefined command , to use help. help shows nothing seemingly to do with passing args
642 2012-09-20 17:21:59 upb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
643 2012-09-20 17:22:36 <knotwork> ok found set args.
644 2012-09-20 17:22:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
645 2012-09-20 17:23:07 <knotwork> but then gdb said detatching from child process so I suspect it actually fired up the daemon in background instead of tracing its exacution
646 2012-09-20 17:25:32 leotreasure has quit (Quit: leotreasure)
647 2012-09-20 17:26:18 <knotwork> ok killed it and tried leaving out the -daemon arg
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656 2012-09-20 17:35:12 <knotwork> ok seems to be running under gdb okay now
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714 2012-09-20 19:07:46 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #67: FAILURE in 4 hr 10 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/67/
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747 2012-09-20 20:06:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: seen the osx crash reports?
748 2012-09-20 20:06:44 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: there are several reports of problems on osx, specifically
749 2012-09-20 20:07:33 <gavinandresen> I know of two people reporting crash-on-startup running osx 10.5
750 2012-09-20 20:07:39 <gavinandresen> are there more?
751 2012-09-20 20:07:58 <gavinandresen> (and anybody crashing NOT on 10.5 ?)
752 2012-09-20 20:09:14 Raziel_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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762 2012-09-20 20:32:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: one 10.5, one "leopard", one "lion"
763 2012-09-20 20:32:31 <jgarzik> #1842 is lion
764 2012-09-20 20:32:34 <gavinandresen> leopard == 10.5...
765 2012-09-20 20:32:37 <jgarzik> the first two are forum
766 2012-09-20 20:32:43 lggr has joined
767 2012-09-20 20:33:21 <gavinandresen> 1842 I hadn't seen, that's disturbing
768 2012-09-20 20:34:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: gcc is the osx compiler? is all the -pthread gadgetry set, for both compile and link steps?
769 2012-09-20 20:34:53 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: any chance of a bitcoin <-> dependent library mismatch causing problems this severe?
770 2012-09-20 20:34:53 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: should be, -pthread in both LIBS and CFLAGS
771 2012-09-20 20:35:46 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: there is a chance, but all the dependent libraries should be shipped as part of the .app bundle
772 2012-09-20 20:36:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: compile flag mismatch between bitcoin core and qt?
773 2012-09-20 20:36:24 <gavinandresen> no, I make clean and only compile qt when building releases
774 2012-09-20 20:36:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
775 2012-09-20 20:37:25 <gavinandresen> there IS a newer version of the macports qt4-mac available, I wonder if the version I was compiling against had issues....
776 2012-09-20 20:37:28 <eian> Does anyone know what this page means: http://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction
777 2012-09-20 20:37:37 MrMeow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
778 2012-09-20 20:38:28 <eian> ah, nevermind - found the description
779 2012-09-20 20:38:39 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I was also thinking of the possibility that _makefiles_ apply differences between core and qt that a 'make clean' might not catch. i.e. like the recent crashes fixed by -DBOOST_SPIRIT_THREADSAFE
780 2012-09-20 20:38:59 <jgarzik> anyway, just throwing spaghetti against a wall, as it were, to see if it sticks
781 2012-09-20 20:39:04 * jgarzik looks at diffs
782 2012-09-20 20:39:19 <jgarzik> another common platform-specific source of headaches has been the underlying locking/sync stuff
783 2012-09-20 20:39:29 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: harumph.... looking at the qt-generated makefile I see no -pthread stuff....
784 2012-09-20 20:39:32 MrMeow has joined
785 2012-09-20 20:40:00 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yeah, that is the sort of problem I was thinking about
786 2012-09-20 20:40:30 * gavinandresen wonders how to tell qmake to to the pthread thing....
787 2012-09-20 20:40:42 <jgarzik> make sure link gets it, as well as compile
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799 2012-09-20 21:02:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: manually add -pthread to LIBS and to QMAKE_CXXFLAGS ?
800 2012-09-20 21:04:23 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'll compile that way and see if it helps. Wish I understood qmake better, there is a QMAKE_LFLAGS_THREAD setting but I don't know how to tell qmake to use it
801 2012-09-20 21:04:45 <jgarzik> BFL_Sonny - "Hi, my name is Sonny Vleisides" - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0
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803 2012-09-20 21:07:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: quick Google suggests CONFIG += thread
804 2012-09-20 21:07:09 <Luke-Jr> wonder why we don't have that already
805 2012-09-20 21:07:16 <Luke-Jr> thread The target is a multi-threaded application or library. The proper defines and compiler flags will automatically be added to the project.
806 2012-09-20 21:08:15 <sipa> ha!
807 2012-09-20 21:08:26 <sipa> that sounds like what we need
808 2012-09-20 21:08:36 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: thanks, it works if I do: qmake CONFIG+=thread QMAKE_CFLAGS_THREAD+=-pthread QMAKE_LFLAGS_THREAD+=-pthread ... etc
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811 2012-09-20 21:10:09 <Luke-Jr> so I wonder if this is CVE-2012-1910 all over again?
812 2012-09-20 21:15:40 <Luke-Jr> sigh, seems even deleting src/build.h my builds still say 0.6.0-whatever
813 2012-09-20 21:16:18 <xisalty> lol
814 2012-09-20 21:16:23 <xisalty> You ought to fix that
815 2012-09-20 21:16:55 <sipa> Luke-Jr: heh, how is that possible?
816 2012-09-20 21:16:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
817 2012-09-20 21:17:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I don't know :/
818 2012-09-20 21:17:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: or is 0.6.0 the last tag it knows about?
819 2012-09-20 21:17:15 <Luke-Jr> nope
820 2012-09-20 21:17:18 <Luke-Jr> build/build.h is correct
821 2012-09-20 21:17:29 <sipa> and it's a Qt build?
822 2012-09-20 21:17:33 <Luke-Jr> yes
823 2012-09-20 21:17:50 <sipa> not using a build in some alternate directory?
824 2012-09-20 21:18:01 <Luke-Jr> no, just building in the same dir as the .pro file
825 2012-09-20 21:18:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: just CONFIG+=thread is not enough?
826 2012-09-20 21:18:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: no
827 2012-09-20 21:19:18 <sipa> not even if you do it in the .pro file?
828 2012-09-20 21:19:30 <gavinandresen> I'll try that...
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830 2012-09-20 21:20:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: no, doesn't work. there is no -pthread stuff in the osx qmake template folder doo-hickey
831 2012-09-20 21:21:34 <gavinandresen> I'm in the middle of upgrading my macports qt4, so I'm going to let that finish before doing more experimenting.
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849 2012-09-20 21:37:44 <eian> Is bitcoin considered a synchronous distributed system?
850 2012-09-20 21:37:54 <sipa> it's not synchronous
851 2012-09-20 21:38:11 <eian> I suppose I mean academically
852 2012-09-20 21:38:23 <eian> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/tds/papers/Lynch/pods83-flp.pdf
853 2012-09-20 21:38:32 <Diablo-D3> you mean asynchronous but strictly ordered
854 2012-09-20 21:39:00 <eian> I'm trying to map other literature to what I understand about the protocol
855 2012-09-20 21:39:04 <sipa> eian: bitcoin does not achieve consensus
856 2012-09-20 21:39:04 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin trades latency for hard ordering
857 2012-09-20 21:39:09 <sipa> in the traditional sense of the word
858 2012-09-20 21:39:16 <Diablo-D3> sipa: it "does"
859 2012-09-20 21:39:20 <Diablo-D3> but it uses math to do it
860 2012-09-20 21:39:24 <sipa> Diablo-D3: no, it doesn't
861 2012-09-20 21:39:32 ThomasV has joined
862 2012-09-20 21:39:32 <sipa> nodes do not necessarily agree
863 2012-09-20 21:39:50 <Diablo-D3> I mean, in the sense that all the nodes have to agree blocks are valid
864 2012-09-20 21:39:58 mologie has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
865 2012-09-20 21:40:02 <sipa> the assumption is that the chance that they disagree about things further in the past decreases exponentially
866 2012-09-20 21:40:12 <sipa> but there is always a non-zero chance for reorganisation
867 2012-09-20 21:40:13 <Diablo-D3> sipa: that too
868 2012-09-20 21:40:24 <sipa> which means there is no consensus in the traditional definition
869 2012-09-20 21:40:38 <Diablo-D3> if you strictly use a traditional definition? Ill agree with that
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871 2012-09-20 21:40:50 <sipa> eian: if you want to know more about the theory, talk to amiller
872 2012-09-20 21:40:54 <Diablo-D3> but that whole way of thought has sort of fallen to the wayside in quite a few projects in the past few years
873 2012-09-20 21:40:59 <sipa> he did a talk about these things in london
874 2012-09-20 21:41:08 <eian> are the slides up somewhere?
875 2012-09-20 21:41:12 <eian> or video or something?
876 2012-09-20 21:41:14 <sipa> not yet, i think
877 2012-09-20 21:41:16 <eian> :(
878 2012-09-20 21:41:20 <eian> ok thanks - I will do that
879 2012-09-20 21:41:42 <Diablo-D3> btw, sipa, I want your opinion
880 2012-09-20 21:41:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: fwiw, removing my Makefile seems to have fixed it somehow
881 2012-09-20 21:41:56 <Diablo-D3> you understand what db transactions are, right?
882 2012-09-20 21:42:36 <sipa> yes
883 2012-09-20 21:42:46 <Diablo-D3> would it be worth doing concurrent transactions that name previous transactions like how bitcoin names previous blocks to ensure ordering in a global database store?
884 2012-09-20 21:42:59 <Diablo-D3> (and it can name multiple past transactions)
885 2012-09-20 21:43:12 <Diablo-D3> it'll store a log of the past, oh, 24 hours or whatever
886 2012-09-20 21:43:33 <Diablo-D3> plus the last one that effected an object (row, whatever) in the db
887 2012-09-20 21:44:54 <sipa> hmm, maybe if you want to have several separate candidate timelines, and aren't sure yet which one will be chosen
888 2012-09-20 21:45:13 <Diablo-D3> well, there should only ever be one, but this should stomp out accidental forks
889 2012-09-20 21:45:18 <Diablo-D3> whoever has the longest chain wins
890 2012-09-20 21:45:43 <Diablo-D3> Im trying to think of an eventual consistency setup that isnt retarded
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892 2012-09-20 21:45:56 <sipa> like when a transaction would conflict with another, instead of abort and roll back immediately, you allow both to continue without seeing eachother's effects, and choose at some later point which one wins
893 2012-09-20 21:46:03 <sipa> if not, i think there are more efficient solutions
894 2012-09-20 21:46:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that makes no sense at all...
895 2012-09-20 21:46:34 <Diablo-D3> not abort and roll back, because that cant be handled efficiently at the sync layer
896 2012-09-20 21:46:47 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I agree, but it is what it is :/
897 2012-09-20 21:46:47 <Diablo-D3> (that'd have to be handled in the frontend of that code)
898 2012-09-20 21:46:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
899 2012-09-20 21:46:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I guess the Makefile lacks a rule to remake itself?
900 2012-09-20 21:47:05 <Diablo-D3> but something like, use hashes, pick whichever number is smaller if there isnt a chain that wins
901 2012-09-20 21:47:20 <Diablo-D3> on databases that rarely back to back commit on the same objects, nothing will ever happen
902 2012-09-20 21:47:41 <sipa> why are you trying to write a database engine?
903 2012-09-20 21:47:52 <Diablo-D3> for fun.
904 2012-09-20 21:47:59 <sipa> very good reason :)
905 2012-09-20 21:48:06 <Luke-Jr> lol'
906 2012-09-20 21:48:12 copumpkin is now known as LexShrapnel
907 2012-09-20 21:48:19 <Diablo-D3> hell, same thing goes with that rather strange base C lib Im writing
908 2012-09-20 21:48:22 <Diablo-D3> for fun
909 2012-09-20 21:48:44 <Diablo-D3> get this, the most primary part of my base lib is an STM impl
910 2012-09-20 21:49:11 <Diablo-D3> everything else in the lib uses it to read and write to memory
911 2012-09-20 21:49:16 <Diablo-D3> including the malloc impl
912 2012-09-20 21:49:29 <Diablo-D3> delicious mandatory thread safety, om nom nom
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914 2012-09-20 21:49:46 * Diablo-D3 goes afk to get food before he eats the lib
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926 2012-09-20 22:11:18 <lianj> is 1dice having a hard time atm, seeing chains of unconfirmed ones
927 2012-09-20 22:11:22 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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933 2012-09-20 22:21:47 <lianj> looks like this one is the origin of the chain, http://blockchain.info/tx-index/70326c78601f000c39f8c5094274777d1ef0dcdce110082825ff657d741905c4
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970 2012-09-20 23:23:21 <amiller> <amiller> jgarzik, neat dht
971 2012-09-20 23:23:23 <amiller> <amiller> i don't understand your keyspace partitioning / distance metric
972 2012-09-20 23:23:26 <amiller> <amiller> node.node_id ^ key_num ( https://github.com/jgarzik/pybond/blob/master/dht.py#L223 )
973 2012-09-20 23:23:27 <amiller> <amiller> actually nvm i think that's precisely the key distance used in kademlia
974 2012-09-20 23:23:30 <amiller> <amiller> btw i'm still trying to simplify pynode by replacing httpsrv/asynchat with gevent, but i have to fix my broken bitcoin installation first
975 2012-09-20 23:24:24 <amiller> eian, yeah bitcoin is a synchronous protocol, aka the "probably almost completely reliable" network model http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg10001.html
976 2012-09-20 23:24:30 <jgarzik> amiller: thanks for the resend
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979 2012-09-20 23:24:46 <jgarzik> amiller: I'll switch to your version, if you can get http working
980 2012-09-20 23:24:54 <amiller> eian, i put a bunch of background material in here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99631.0
981 2012-09-20 23:24:54 <jgarzik> amiller: that's rather the deal breaker :/
982 2012-09-20 23:25:15 <jgarzik> amiller: the current changes to node.py look 100% OK
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984 2012-09-20 23:25:32 <amiller> jgarzik, i'm gonna do it for pynode first
985 2012-09-20 23:25:41 <jgarzik> amiller: cool!
986 2012-09-20 23:25:42 <amiller> jgarzik, that's the only way i'll be able to test that it's working correctly, pretty much like you said
987 2012-09-20 23:26:01 <jgarzik> amiller: if you fix pynode for that, that means I can very easily upgrade pynode to full node status
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991 2012-09-20 23:27:09 <jgarzik> amiller: a HUGE problem with asyncore, and another reason it is only a rapid prototyping toy, is that it lacks any concept of timers and timeouts. modern asynchronous P2P has all sorts of background, periodic tasks
992 2012-09-20 23:27:17 <jgarzik> gevent should solve that
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994 2012-09-20 23:29:34 <jgarzik> amiller: yes, my DHT is a cheesy Kademlia knock-off
995 2012-09-20 23:29:58 <jgarzik> amiller: though I have done other DHT work as well, such as http://www.nicemice.net/amc/research/tangle/
996 2012-09-20 23:30:10 <jgarzik> (not my research, but I worked quite a bit on the implementation, after its initial release)
997 2012-09-20 23:30:29 <amiller> ah that's very cool, i was gonna say i was totally impressed you hacked out a kademlia that fast
998 2012-09-20 23:30:49 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: do you plan to support current Python releases btw?
999 2012-09-20 23:31:12 <jgarzik> amiller: the server side is trivial, because it (wisely!) never does any recursive lookups
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1002 2012-09-20 23:31:30 <jgarzik> amiller: it's all dumb data serving, really
1003 2012-09-20 23:31:45 <amiller> jgarzik, what does it take to make such a thing DoS resistant and suitable for public nodes?
1004 2012-09-20 23:31:50 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: I accept python3 patches, if that's what you are asking
1005 2012-09-20 23:32:01 <jgarzik> amiller: well...
1006 2012-09-20 23:32:18 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ok, I'll try to find time one of these weeks..
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1008 2012-09-20 23:32:20 <jgarzik> amiller: no known DHT technology is DoS/Sybil proof really
1009 2012-09-20 23:33:00 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: ideal is supporting python 2.7 + python 3.x. python 2.[recently] remains a hard requirement for some years to come.
1010 2012-09-20 23:33:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that's slightly harder ;)
1011 2012-09-20 23:33:18 <jgarzik> amiller: I was thinking about requiring a node-id generated from a proof of work
1012 2012-09-20 23:33:36 <jgarzik> amiller: makes sybil and some other attacks more expensive
1013 2012-09-20 23:33:55 <Luke-Jr> today I observe the sad state of how busy I am in terms of reaction time to code change requests; I think it took me 2 weeks to address an issue gmaxwell/gavin brought up :<
1014 2012-09-20 23:35:26 <jgarzik> amiller: outside of that... just gotta think of sane hueristics, like limiting total data traffic from each A.B.C.D/24
1015 2012-09-20 23:36:08 <jgarzik> amiller: cheap botnets make swiss cheese of even those defenses, so that mainly addresses stupid-software unintentional attacks more than anything else, I think
1016 2012-09-20 23:36:42 <jgarzik> proof-of-work can increase the cost to store (and therefore flood) data
1017 2012-09-20 23:36:43 <amiller> jgarzik, at least the problem is no harder / easier than what the ordinary bitcoin clients face
1018 2012-09-20 23:37:17 <amiller> so yeah, that all sounds right, and i trust your judgment regarding sane heuristics :p
1019 2012-09-20 23:37:37 <jgarzik> rofl, who says I have good judgement???
1020 2012-09-20 23:37:38 * jgarzik runs
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1022 2012-09-20 23:38:10 <amiller> jgarzik, related to proof of work, another option i thought of once is to require bitcoins in escrow in the blockchain
1023 2012-09-20 23:38:50 <jgarzik> amiller: yeah, you could require a signed message from a key owning an unspent txout
1024 2012-09-20 23:39:14 <jgarzik> signed messages are out-of-band (with respect to bitcoin), so no blockchain bloat
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1028 2012-09-20 23:43:29 * jgarzik wonders, then, the best way (p2p or rpc) to check and see if a txout is (a) valid and (b) unspent
1029 2012-09-20 23:44:01 <sipa> no objection for an RPC to check that
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1036 2012-09-20 23:50:19 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: your own, or arbitrary?
1037 2012-09-20 23:50:33 <jgarzik> arbitrary
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1039 2012-09-20 23:52:34 <sipa> jgarzik: imho, the prime purpose of a validation node (one which is not intended for downloading blocks) is exactly tracking which outputs are still available, so it would make sense to have an RPC for that
1040 2012-09-20 23:53:24 <jgarzik> sipa: what about P2P? (not disputing an RPC's usefulness... just trying to think it through)
1041 2012-09-20 23:54:44 <sipa> i don't see a usecase directly for exposing that information via P2P, but i don't see a reason why it would be a problem
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