1 2012-09-21 00:02:07 <jgarzik> sipa: agree ^2
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   4 2012-09-21 00:08:48 <sipa> i really wonder why people mail "i have a business transaction for you", assuming they can get my interest without saying anything...
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   8 2012-09-21 00:14:42 <diki> sipa:That's called SPAM.
   9 2012-09-21 00:16:51 <sipa> i have reason to assume they do actually have something to tell me
  10 2012-09-21 00:19:02 <graingert> sipa: I have a buisness transaction for you
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  15 2012-09-21 00:36:30 <amiller> man, i think i just figured out something grand
  16 2012-09-21 00:36:32 <amiller> i've been fussing about what sort of behavior model to use for bitcoin
  17 2012-09-21 00:36:53 <amiller> "mostly unconditional-honest" doesn't seem too realistic
  18 2012-09-21 00:37:10 <amiller> "rational" seems too difficult though, since i think many people mine at a loss
  19 2012-09-21 00:37:38 <amiller> so the right model is the one that results in people playing at lotteries!
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  21 2012-09-21 00:38:09 <amiller> bitcoin is basically a cross between a lottery and an election, nearly every state has a lottery of some kind that pays out negative-expected value, and the proceeds are used for social benefit
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  23 2012-09-21 00:38:59 <amiller> in a rational model no one plays the lottery, but in an altruistic model lotteries aren't needed since everyone just donates all the time
  24 2012-09-21 00:40:15 <sipa> you should start a field of science called computational sociology
  25 2012-09-21 00:41:05 <amiller> sipa, heh.
  26 2012-09-21 00:41:10 <amiller> since you mentioned that, i wanted to point out this neat paper http://eli.informatics.indiana.edu/CHI2012_Collapse_CameraReadyFinalClean.pdf
  27 2012-09-21 00:41:24 <amiller> many computer science papers begin with some kind of sociological justification, typically moores law
  28 2012-09-21 00:41:41 <amiller> "computing power seems to double every couple of years, therefore we're justified in putting our attention on XXXX topic that uses lots of computation"
  29 2012-09-21 00:41:43 <jgarzik> amiller: I think there is a fair amount of altruism (we unpaid devs) and a fair amount of deluded self-interest ("I'll get rich!!!!" ... invests in Ponzis)
  30 2012-09-21 00:42:28 <amiller> these people suggest a new way to start your paper, it goes something like "we're apparently on the brink of a cataostrophic collapse of civilization, therefore computational topic XXX is of interest..."
  31 2012-09-21 00:43:17 <amiller> jgarzik, sweet, so bitcoin apparently harnesses the limitless power of deluded self-interest :p
  32 2012-09-21 00:43:48 <jgarzik> just like every politician in existence relies on "low information voters" to stay in power ;p
  33 2012-09-21 00:43:57 <jgarzik> </sarcasm>
  34 2012-09-21 00:44:23 <amiller> consider a group of individuals who play a losing lottery, $1 for a 0.9 expected return
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  36 2012-09-21 00:44:36 <amiller> if they would simply cooperate with each other, they could run their own lottery for a higher rate of return
  37 2012-09-21 00:44:51 <amiller> the problem is they're deluded, self-interested, and mutually untrusting
  38 2012-09-21 00:45:22 <amiller> they're better off mining in that case
  39 2012-09-21 00:46:40 <sipa> i wonder whether some long-term-prospect-rational way isn't appropriate: the reason people run a node is because it provides them with the ability to do X (insert something bitcoin offers), and that outweighs the cost
  40 2012-09-21 00:47:14 <sipa> mining may some day be the same: people mine at a slight loss because they want to protect the network, as a 51% attack may harm the usefulness of the entire system
  41 2012-09-21 00:48:04 * amiller digs for an explanation of why people are willing to accept a low-expected-value, high-uncertainty option as long as the potential upside is glorious enough
  42 2012-09-21 00:48:21 <jgarzik> it is my fear that the biggest reason why people today run a validating node is...  that's the default for the reference software.  not out of specific intent.
  43 2012-09-21 00:48:27 <sipa> oh, take into account human's inability to estimate chances
  44 2012-09-21 00:49:17 <jgarzik> incentives against running a validating node seem like they will increase in the future
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  47 2012-09-21 00:50:45 <sipa> i wonder what model could explain gambling though...
  48 2012-09-21 00:50:47 <amiller> jgarzik, well by changing the proof-of-work puzzle we may at least be able to remove the incentive _against_ validation :/ but i accept that i need to pick my battles and this one is... out there
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  50 2012-09-21 00:51:48 <jgarzik> come up with an untrusted model for paying $the network
  51 2012-09-21 00:51:51 <jgarzik> then it's self-sustaining
  52 2012-09-21 00:52:28 <jgarzik> i.e. you are paid some tiny amount for running a validating node
  53 2012-09-21 00:53:11 <jgarzik> otherwise it is as you said...  people run a node because bitcoin provides them with some ability
  54 2012-09-21 00:53:11 <amiller> jgarzik, how might you go about 'proving' to an observer that you're indeed running a full node
  55 2012-09-21 00:53:16 <jgarzik> and they get value that way
  56 2012-09-21 00:53:25 <jgarzik> amiller: that is The Question ;p
  57 2012-09-21 00:54:04 <amiller> yeah and 'RAFT' is roughly the answer http://dspace.mit.edu/openaccess-disseminate/1721.1/72402
  58 2012-09-21 00:54:26 <jgarzik> amiller: others may test and sample and observe behavior compared to their own datasets...  but collating that data such that everyone is credited work in a cheat-proof manner.  hard.
  59 2012-09-21 00:55:09 <sipa> use a challenge-response that requires traversing a part of the utxo set?
  60 2012-09-21 00:55:23 <amiller> sipa, right!
  61 2012-09-21 00:55:27 <amiller> now let miners choose their own challenges
  62 2012-09-21 00:56:00 <amiller> and among their successfully answered challenges are a small number of 'winners' that earn them a reward
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  66 2012-09-21 01:04:34 <gmaxwell> 17:33 < sipa> you should start a field of science called computational sociology
  67 2012-09-21 01:04:58 <gmaxwell> I think you want sociology of computation;  computational sociology would be Asimov's Foundation universe. :P
  68 2012-09-21 01:05:25 <Diablo-D3> hell
  69 2012-09-21 01:05:30 <Diablo-D3> we have a company called us robotics
  70 2012-09-21 01:05:51 <gmaxwell> amiller: mining as lottery is contraindicated by the existance of pools. :P
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  72 2012-09-21 01:06:37 <maaku> "computational sociology" sounds like a nice academic phrase for crypto-anarchism :P
  73 2012-09-21 01:09:40 <amiller> gmaxwell, i'm pretty sure we're living through asimov's foundation universe
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  75 2012-09-21 01:09:44 <amiller> it's how i learned to cope with a falling empire
  76 2012-09-21 01:10:17 <amiller> and build on the work of a brilliant absentee mathematician
  77 2012-09-21 01:10:40 <amiller> i think our first crisis was the botnets
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  83 2012-09-21 01:15:30 <amiller> maybe satoshi will reveal hidden blockchain messages to us every so often, that would be neat
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  89 2012-09-21 01:25:22 <Luke-Jr> "computational sociology" aka psychohistory…
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  96 2012-09-21 01:44:35 <gmaxwell> Wallet encryption ought to tell you that you need to redo your backups after you encrypt your wallet. I talked to someone last night who got burned by <create wallet> <backup> <send funds> <encrypt> <perform a transaction> <laptop stolen>.
  97 2012-09-21 01:46:35 <Joric> hows that if address pool stays the same
  98 2012-09-21 01:47:00 <sipa> it doesn't
  99 2012-09-21 01:47:18 <Joric> it what??
 100 2012-09-21 01:47:38 <sipa> encrypting resets the address pool, as otherwise pre-encrypt copies are vulnerable to theft
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 102 2012-09-21 01:48:22 <sipa> by resetting the pool, you make sure no active address has ever had its keys touch disk in unencrypted form
 103 2012-09-21 01:48:24 <gmaxwell> Joric: it retains the keys, but marks them all used, and fills in a whole new set.
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 111 2012-09-21 02:01:27 <Diablo-D3> sipa: oh fuck
 112 2012-09-21 02:01:29 <Diablo-D3> seriously?
 113 2012-09-21 02:01:38 <Joric> NACK!
 114 2012-09-21 02:01:49 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I think we need an option for that
 115 2012-09-21 02:01:57 <Diablo-D3> encrypt, and encrypt meharder
 116 2012-09-21 02:02:08 <Diablo-D3> because I always encrypt the actual backups
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 144 2012-09-21 02:43:49 <eennaam> echo
 145 2012-09-21 02:43:55 <jgarzik> cardiogram
 146 2012-09-21 02:43:58 <eennaam> hello world
 147 2012-09-21 02:44:41 <eennaam> can i report some minor annoyance with bitcoin client?
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 154 2012-09-21 02:51:24 <forrestv> eennaam, sure, why not
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 156 2012-09-21 02:53:48 <eennaam> everytime a new version is out, i install it, the shortcut to it is also replaced, it links to the executable, but i change it with some attributes behind the executable, i thought maybe in new version could try not to replace the old shortcut if it is already there, because it removes the attributes
 157 2012-09-21 02:54:00 <eennaam> but it is just very small issue i guess
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 172 2012-09-21 03:32:29 <weex> eennaam: it's better to create an issue at github
 173 2012-09-21 03:33:04 <eennaam> okay
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 221 2012-09-21 05:02:31 <randy-waterhouse> hi I'm getting a db error with bitcoin-0.7 (ubuntu 11.04) ... I've run the bitcoind -detachdb prior to launch ... any ideas?
 222 2012-09-21 05:02:43 <randy-waterhouse> ************************
 223 2012-09-21 05:02:44 <randy-waterhouse> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException
 224 2012-09-21 05:02:44 <randy-waterhouse> DbEnv::open: DB_RUNRECOVERY: Fatal error, run database recovery
 225 2012-09-21 05:02:44 <randy-waterhouse> bitcoin in AppInit()
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 265 2012-09-21 06:26:32 <jgarzik> The ZeroAccess Botnet: Mining and Fraud for Massive Financial Gain - http://www.sophos.com/en-us/medialibrary/PDFs/technical%20papers/Sophos_ZeroAccess_Botnet.pdf?dl=true
 266 2012-09-21 06:26:56 <jgarzik> botnet is P2P; even has super nodes and leaf nodes
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 268 2012-09-21 06:32:14 <Gladamas> wow
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 271 2012-09-21 06:36:21 <Joric> mining is probably the least profitable thing that can be done with a botnet
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 274 2012-09-21 06:38:02 <Joric> or maybe it's just me and other ppl got better gpus
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 281 2012-09-21 06:52:39 <wumpus> the botnet explicitly disables gpu mining, so the profit cannot be that large per machine, though ofcourse they have many, many machines
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 286 2012-09-21 07:04:52 <_dr> using like 30% or whatever of the gpu would seem more covert
 287 2012-09-21 07:05:25 <_dr> even uninformed users will notice there's something wrong with their machine if all cpus work at full load
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 289 2012-09-21 07:06:02 <_dr> that is, if someone actually uses the infected machine and it's not just sitting somewhere
 290 2012-09-21 07:07:03 <amiller> their estimate seems to be that the botnet makes 10% of its income from mining
 291 2012-09-21 07:10:12 <_dr> i want a botnet
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 296 2012-09-21 07:33:36 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck
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 322 2012-09-21 08:22:03 <amiller> "regressive" describes the tendency of a lottery to be played by poor people
 323 2012-09-21 08:22:27 <amiller> lotteries with high jackpots tend to be played by more affluent people
 324 2012-09-21 08:23:18 <amiller> p2pool is a regressive lottery
 325 2012-09-21 08:25:03 <amiller> solomining is progressive
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 331 2012-09-21 08:40:25 <amiller> lol
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 336 2012-09-21 08:48:56 <amiller> hah i think i figured out why satoshi dice is a problem
 337 2012-09-21 08:49:36 <amiller> it's wasted risk-tolerance
 338 2012-09-21 08:49:59 <amiller> the underlying cause is the fixed block difficulty
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 347 2012-09-21 09:07:41 <yellowhat> amiller can you expand on the satoshidice problem?
 348 2012-09-21 09:08:04 lggr has joined
 349 2012-09-21 09:09:19 <amiller> lets say that bitcoin is like a state lottery in that harnesses risky-greedy behavior and turns it into public utility
 350 2012-09-21 09:09:51 <amiller> imagine that a state lottery has one game you can play, it pays out once a week and the jackpot is $1,000,000
 351 2012-09-21 09:11:09 <Joric> and all that goes to eric woorhees
 352 2012-09-21 09:11:12 <amiller> hopefully that's an interesting game and a lot of people play - the expected earning is negative, but the proceeds go to some useful cause
 353 2012-09-21 09:12:10 <amiller> typically there are a lot of different games to choose from
 354 2012-09-21 09:12:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 356 2012-09-21 09:13:37 <amiller> an interesting thing about lotteries is that poor people tend to play the games that have smaller jackpots but a higher chance of winning
 357 2012-09-21 09:13:58 <amiller> but affluent people tend to play the games with a higher payout
 358 2012-09-21 09:14:11 <amiller> http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/chance_news/for_chance_news/ChanceNews13.02/OsterShort.pdf
 359 2012-09-21 09:15:16 <epscy> affluent people are more greedy?
 360 2012-09-21 09:16:16 <yellowhat> because for a rich person it might not make an impact on his life if he wins 10.000 $ for a poor person, it will
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 362 2012-09-21 09:17:31 <yellowhat> so you point is - from a socialist state perspective it is morally wrong that eric vorhees wins?
 363 2012-09-21 09:18:28 <amiller> no - i'm saying it's wrong from a bitcoin scalability perspective
 364 2012-09-21 09:18:35 <amiller> it's too bad bitcoin only lets you play at one game
 365 2012-09-21 09:18:44 <epscy> err
 366 2012-09-21 09:18:49 <epscy> i don't understand
 367 2012-09-21 09:19:09 <epscy> you could run lots of different types of lotteries in bitcoin
 368 2012-09-21 09:19:11 <amiller> a variation of bitcoin with dynamic block difficulty would be able to pull in more revenue, more mining work
 369 2012-09-21 09:19:20 <yellowhat> well i expect more competitors with more interesting UIs to spring up competing with SD
 370 2012-09-21 09:19:27 <epscy> oh you are talking about mining
 371 2012-09-21 09:20:09 <epscy> but you don't want to it to vary too much
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 373 2012-09-21 09:20:22 <epscy> because that might make bitcoin insecure
 374 2012-09-21 09:20:33 <yellowhat> it took me a while to get that too :)
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 376 2012-09-21 09:22:10 <amiller> ah i need to pick a phrase besides "dynamic block difficulty" because that makes it seem like i'm talking about varying the difficulty threshold over time
 377 2012-09-21 09:22:29 <amiller> what i'm talking about is more like having a bunch of jackpots at different difficulties and you can pick your bet wherever you want
 378 2012-09-21 09:24:30 <epscy> interesting idea
 379 2012-09-21 09:27:06 <amiller> i need to come up with a proof of work scheme where it's easy to pay for the mining
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 381 2012-09-21 09:31:12 <amiller> bitcoin can already do part of what's required - you can ask someone to mine on a block for you without revealing what it is
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 383 2012-09-21 09:32:29 <amiller> the reason it's not safe to outsource mining right now is that the service provider can tell if you've won or not
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 385 2012-09-21 09:32:56 <amiller> you should be able to hire a miner to produce a high-work lottery ticket for you, but only you can scratch it off to see if you won
 386 2012-09-21 09:33:48 <amiller> (tl;dr for the previous half of this rant: the problem with satoshi dice is that it's more exciting than bitcoin ming)
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 389 2012-09-21 09:41:33 <epscy> heh
 390 2012-09-21 09:41:42 <epscy> not sure how this would work though
 391 2012-09-21 09:42:04 <epscy> you could limit the lower jackpots to smaller blocks perhaps
 392 2012-09-21 09:42:36 <epscy> not sure if there would be enough of an incentive to mine the higher jackpots though
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 395 2012-09-21 09:44:54 <amiller> well there's a natural incentive which is that you have less chance of being preempted at the higher jackpot
 396 2012-09-21 09:45:02 <amiller> of having a stale fork
 397 2012-09-21 09:45:23 <amiller> propagation/validation goes proportionally faster at the higher difficulties
 398 2012-09-21 09:45:29 <epscy> preempted?
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 400 2012-09-21 09:45:57 <epscy> you mean less competition?
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 402 2012-09-21 09:47:25 <amiller> the stale block rate is smaller up there
 403 2012-09-21 09:47:54 <amiller> someone who's mining on a very difficult block
 404 2012-09-21 09:48:02 <amiller> wants damn sure to have the fastest network and to always be mining at the front
 405 2012-09-21 09:48:04 <epscy> hmmm, not sure how much of a factor that is
 406 2012-09-21 09:48:26 <epscy> the stale block rate i mean
 407 2012-09-21 09:48:38 <amiller> because the risk of winning a block and being beaten because someone else made a bigger one faster is too unbearable
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 410 2012-09-21 09:53:08 <amiller> it's kind of a two dimensional lottery
 411 2012-09-21 09:53:23 <amiller> and there's supply/demand for each
 412 2012-09-21 09:56:23 <epscy> yeah, i wonder how that would work with a single blockchain
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 414 2012-09-21 09:56:42 <epscy> you could argue we already have what you suggest
 415 2012-09-21 09:57:03 <epscy> there is litecoin for people who think mining bitcoin is too hard
 416 2012-09-21 09:57:13 <epscy> though litecoin is flawed imho
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 418 2012-09-21 09:59:29 <amiller> divisiveness isn't the answer, the goal is to consolidate all the work
 419 2012-09-21 10:00:00 <epscy> lower jackpot, means lower difficulty
 420 2012-09-21 10:00:22 <amiller> also both bitcoin and litecoin are flawed in that their proof-of-work puzzles have nothing to do with propagation/validation
 421 2012-09-21 10:00:33 <amiller> dhtcoin will kick ass though
 422 2012-09-21 10:00:38 <epscy> dhtcoin?
 423 2012-09-21 10:01:00 <epscy> i thought that was feature, the network and validation could be abstracted away
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 425 2012-09-21 10:01:29 <epscy> bitcoin could run over the telephone or snail mail, in theory
 426 2012-09-21 10:01:52 <amiller> even if you have telephone and snail mail, you still need to validate transactions
 427 2012-09-21 10:02:13 <phantomcircuit> epscy, well no not really since you would be epic vulnerable to a sybil attack
 428 2012-09-21 10:03:07 <epscy> phantomcircuit: yeah, in practice there would be all sorts of issues
 429 2012-09-21 10:04:16 <epscy> i worry about the security of a blockchain where some blocks were found with a lower difficulty than others
 430 2012-09-21 10:05:00 <amiller> epscy, you'd always pick the "strongest" block, the one with the most total work
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 432 2012-09-21 10:05:13 <amiller> er, strongest chain*
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 434 2012-09-21 10:06:29 <epscy> sounds like that would make mining for lower jackpots very risky
 435 2012-09-21 10:07:39 <amiller> well if you're willing to cooperate with others, you'd want to pool together on something like p2pool, mine at the higher difficulty, and split the rewards
 436 2012-09-21 10:07:52 <amiller> you're right - mining for lower jackpots is risky and inefficient
 437 2012-09-21 10:09:20 <amiller> high frequency trading is kind of like an advanced form of satoshidice
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 439 2012-09-21 10:10:57 <phantomcircuit> amiller, except on average you win
 440 2012-09-21 10:10:58 <phantomcircuit> :)
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 442 2012-09-21 10:11:17 <phantomcircuit> also not sure if anybody noticed but intersango is now much faster
 443 2012-09-21 10:11:20 <phantomcircuit> stupid PDO
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 447 2012-09-21 10:12:49 <amiller> phantomcircuit, well, it's easy to win when there's a trapdoor that could be coerced out somehow :/
 448 2012-09-21 10:14:36 <epscy> phantomcircuit: PDO?
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 452 2012-09-21 10:16:34 <phantomcircuit> epscy, php data object
 453 2012-09-21 10:16:55 <phantomcircuit> basically instead of using prepared statements just using escaped strings results in substantially better query planning from postgresql
 454 2012-09-21 10:17:04 <phantomcircuit> and thus a massive speed up
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 456 2012-09-21 10:17:22 <Diablo-D3> that sounds like a load of bullshit
 457 2012-09-21 10:17:36 <epscy> is that a framework bug or a postgres bug?
 458 2012-09-21 10:17:42 <Diablo-D3> has to be a framework bug
 459 2012-09-21 10:17:49 <Diablo-D3> prepared statements is how you make sql fast
 460 2012-09-21 10:18:08 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, hilariously not in this case
 461 2012-09-21 10:18:31 <Diablo-D3> wtf is the query?
 462 2012-09-21 10:18:32 <phantomcircuit> i dumped the query plan in the log and it turns out the plan is totally retarded when using prepared statements
 463 2012-09-21 10:18:43 <Diablo-D3> that sounds extremely wrong
 464 2012-09-21 10:18:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, just selecting the orders linked to an account
 465 2012-09-21 10:18:59 <Diablo-D3> whos db is this?
 466 2012-09-21 10:19:03 <phantomcircuit> i agree
 467 2012-09-21 10:19:04 <phantomcircuit> and yet
 468 2012-09-21 10:19:17 <phantomcircuit> it's postgres
 469 2012-09-21 10:19:28 <epscy> i thought postgres was supposed to be a big piece of awesomeness
 470 2012-09-21 10:19:30 <Diablo-D3> because it sounds very much like the table has the wrong indexes set
 471 2012-09-21 10:19:33 <Diablo-D3> epscy: it is
 472 2012-09-21 10:19:38 <phantomcircuit> a small number of users have a much greater % of orders than other users
 473 2012-09-21 10:19:40 <Diablo-D3> its basically the best traditional db I know of
 474 2012-09-21 10:19:48 <phantomcircuit> for those users a sequential scan of the orders table makes sense
 475 2012-09-21 10:19:52 <phantomcircuit> for everybody else it doesn't
 476 2012-09-21 10:20:11 <phantomcircuit> if the planner doesn't know which account you're looking at when it creates the plan it goes with sequential
 477 2012-09-21 10:20:18 <phantomcircuit> not sure why exactly but it does
 478 2012-09-21 10:20:28 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: erm
 479 2012-09-21 10:20:30 <Diablo-D3> thats all tunable
 480 2012-09-21 10:20:46 <Diablo-D3> and you can make indexes by user AND force the query to use the index
 481 2012-09-21 10:20:49 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yes except this is the way i was told by grey beards to do it
 482 2012-09-21 10:20:50 <phantomcircuit> heh
 483 2012-09-21 10:21:03 <phantomcircuit> the query plan is totally different
 484 2012-09-21 10:21:06 <phantomcircuit> not just indexes
 485 2012-09-21 10:21:07 <epscy> php grey beards or postgres grey beards?
 486 2012-09-21 10:21:12 <phantomcircuit> postgres
 487 2012-09-21 10:21:16 <epscy> because not all grey beards are equal
 488 2012-09-21 10:21:18 <phantomcircuit> there are no php grey beards
 489 2012-09-21 10:21:41 <Diablo-D3> this is true
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 553 2012-09-21 12:48:39 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
 554 2012-09-21 12:48:40 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #68: FIXED in 6 hr 35 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/68/
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 610 2012-09-21 14:41:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: I confirm IsCanonicalSignature has 100% branch coverage now. Hurray.
 611 2012-09-21 14:42:05 <gmaxwell> IsCanonicalPubKey does not yet.
 612 2012-09-21 14:42:16 <gmaxwell> (none of the failures are tested)
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 638 2012-09-21 15:26:56 <diki> Why does the coding style forbid using tabs? I find tabs to be much easier to use.
 639 2012-09-21 15:27:02 <diki> and make code cleaner
 640 2012-09-21 15:27:18 <helo> uniform appearance regardless of settings
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 642 2012-09-21 15:28:07 <sipa> it should look the same whether you use tabs or spaces (given the right tab width setting), and in a decent editor both are just as easy to use
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 667 2012-09-21 16:07:53 <_dr> helo: you can set up vim so it's identical
 668 2012-09-21 16:08:01 <helo> yup
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 671 2012-09-21 16:09:00 <epscy> take the number of spaces you use to indent code, subract two, stab yourself that many times
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 674 2012-09-21 16:13:23 <helo> sounds like a good argument for using \t
 675 2012-09-21 16:14:42 <helo> depending on one's interpretation of -2 stabs
 676 2012-09-21 16:14:55 <_dr> obviously: stab someone else two times :)
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 708 2012-09-21 17:02:11 <helo> would it be healthy for colored bitcoin to be used by large organizations (municipal governments, for example) to track property ownership?
 709 2012-09-21 17:03:04 <helo> the additional fees would help support mining, but the block space competition could make it more expensive to send bitcoin as a currency
 710 2012-09-21 17:04:09 <helo> it kind of seems like we could use some block space competition to push fees up, at least to help compensate for the reward halving
 711 2012-09-21 17:04:30 <kjj_> I think that there are fundamental issues with coloring that make the idea unhealthy, but I don't think it would be VERY bad for the network
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 715 2012-09-21 17:04:50 <kjj_> helo: we don't want the fees to be unnaturally high
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 717 2012-09-21 17:06:03 <helo> right... 0.5btc might not be an unreasonable fee for someone to pay if they're transferring ownership of their vehicle to someone else, but it would be pretty prohibitive if someone wants to send 1btc to someone
 718 2012-09-21 17:06:54 <helo> so colored bitcoin may have the potential to significantly harm bitcoin's viability as a currency
 719 2012-09-21 17:07:03 <helo> if it were used on a large scale
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 721 2012-09-21 17:08:44 <kjj_> I don't know how significant the harm would be.  and people could argue the other way, that it helps
 722 2012-09-21 17:09:34 <helo> massive fees would make for a pretty astronomical hashrate... maybe an excessively high hashrate. there's no reason to have more hashing power than we need to be secure.
 723 2012-09-21 17:09:52 <kjj_> the point is that we (as users) want fees to be at their natural level, just barely paying for network security
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 725 2012-09-21 17:10:52 <kjj_> but if we are competing with non-currency uses of the system, the fees will necessarily be higher with those other uses than they would be otherwise, which means that we (collectively) are paying too much for currency transactions
 726 2012-09-21 17:10:57 <helo> a ~major weakness may be that the fees are based on block space scarity, rather than the need for an appropriate hashrate
 727 2012-09-21 17:11:49 <copumpkin> http://bitbin.it/4FcNx3sI
 728 2012-09-21 17:11:50 <helo> yeah, it seems colored bitcoin may be bad for currency bitcoin...
 729 2012-09-21 17:11:51 <kjj_> over time, the fees will get to the level that pays for the real cost of the system.  we can change the maximum block size if we need to
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 732 2012-09-21 17:16:35 <gmaxwell> 09:55 < helo> would it be healthy for colored bitcoin to be used by large organizations (municipal governments, for example) to track property ownership?
 733 2012-09-21 17:16:49 <gmaxwell> I don't think that has any value, either to bitcoin or the colored-users.
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 735 2012-09-21 17:17:03 <helo> yeah, that
 736 2012-09-21 17:17:24 <gmaxwell> You're still depending on a centeralized orginization to give the coloring real meaning. So you might as well have them track the ordering of property exchanges.
 737 2012-09-21 17:18:05 <helo> right
 738 2012-09-21 17:19:12 <helo> changing topic... "my BitCoin gobbler takes 0.1 from every transaction and shifts it off as transaction fee/lost in verification" "we got a worm inside the client and it spreads instantly through the entire network"
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 748 2012-09-21 17:22:54 <copumpkin> helo: yeah, good times
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 750 2012-09-21 17:24:17 <helo> claims to be making $1500/week :/
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 752 2012-09-21 17:26:18 <fiesh> no, per day
 753 2012-09-21 17:26:19 <gmaxwell> helo: hah where is this from?
 754 2012-09-21 17:26:29 <helo> gmaxwell: copumpkin's link above
 755 2012-09-21 17:26:34 <helo> ahh right, per day
 756 2012-09-21 17:26:41 <kjj_> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/EcNCwaEu
 757 2012-09-21 17:26:59 <gmaxwell> ah I stopped by like the 10th line because the stupid was burning my eyes.
 758 2012-09-21 17:27:07 <kjj_> from July 2011
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 760 2012-09-21 17:27:55 * Eliel wonders if it'd make any sense to have the client set the minimum fees in a way that attempts to keep the average block reward at around 50BTC.
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 762 2012-09-21 17:28:21 <kjj_> no
 763 2012-09-21 17:28:34 <gmaxwell> Eliel: jesus, no, :P
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 765 2012-09-21 17:29:10 <kjj_> maybe if the subsidy function was something other than >> that could have worked
 766 2012-09-21 17:29:41 <gmaxwell> Eliel: there is a reason bitcoin doesn't work anything like that; whats the proper income for mining? whatever it is, it certantly shouldn't have anything to do with the bitcoin exchange rate.
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 768 2012-09-21 17:32:11 <fiesh> exchange rate?
 769 2012-09-21 17:32:57 <kjj_> he's talking about mining income in non-bitcoin units of value
 770 2012-09-21 17:33:28 <Eliel> gmaxwell: income for mining will hover around barely worth doing whatever we do :P
 771 2012-09-21 17:33:49 <kjj_> as in, why should mining be worth $500 per block today, but maybe $5000 per block next year?
 772 2012-09-21 17:33:59 <fiesh> kjj_: oh I see... but that will inevitably depend on the exchange rate, no?
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 774 2012-09-21 17:34:25 <Eliel> gmaxwell: the real question is, how high network hashrate is enough :)
 775 2012-09-21 17:34:41 <helo> ^
 776 2012-09-21 17:34:51 <kjj_> if the mining reward was fixed in BTC, the real-world value would float based on the exchange rate
 777 2012-09-21 17:34:57 <gmaxwell> Eliel: No, it won't thats the point.
 778 2012-09-21 17:35:20 <kjj_> by not having a fixed BTC reward, the real-world value can match the real-world costs, and the BTC amount can float
 779 2012-09-21 17:35:24 <fiesh> kjj_: oh yes, I agree that's not a good idea
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 781 2012-09-21 17:35:31 <gmaxwell> Eliel: if you fix it like that then income depends on how much distortion it puts on the exchange rate.
 782 2012-09-21 17:35:42 <helo> the bitcoin hashrate depends on free block competition, but the sufficient hashrate for security depends on whatever an attacker has access to
 783 2012-09-21 17:36:03 <helo> "free block space competition"
 784 2012-09-21 17:36:39 <gmaxwell> (feel free to replace exchange rate with "the price of goods in btc"
 785 2012-09-21 17:36:40 <gmaxwell> )
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 790 2012-09-21 17:43:54 <eian> Are there desktop motherboards with TPMs built in?
 791 2012-09-21 17:44:03 <eian> If so, where the hell do I buy one
 792 2012-09-21 17:45:31 <kjj_> the NSA gift shop has them
 793 2012-09-21 17:45:38 <eian> :)
 794 2012-09-21 17:46:14 <eian> There's all this hoopla about trusted computing
 795 2012-09-21 17:46:23 <eian> I guess it's meant for industry
 796 2012-09-21 17:48:07 <kjj_> you mostly see it on server boards
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 798 2012-09-21 17:49:35 <eian> yeah
 799 2012-09-21 17:49:42 <eian> pff
 800 2012-09-21 17:49:50 <eian> I wanted to built a trusted cloud in my room
 801 2012-09-21 17:49:54 <eian> build*
 802 2012-09-21 17:50:00 <kjj_> trusted by who?
 803 2012-09-21 17:50:02 <PK> my 6 years old notebook has a tpm chip, iirc.
 804 2012-09-21 17:50:04 <eian> me
 805 2012-09-21 17:50:07 <eian> lol
 806 2012-09-21 17:50:13 <PK> make a cloud out of notebooks.
 807 2012-09-21 17:50:15 <eian> I just wanted to figure some stuff out to be honest
 808 2012-09-21 17:50:21 <eian> PK, who is the vendor?
 809 2012-09-21 17:50:26 <PK> HP
 810 2012-09-21 17:50:33 <eian> wow
 811 2012-09-21 17:50:59 <PK> but I think pretty much every notebook should have it by now.
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 813 2012-09-21 17:51:47 <PK> eian, btw, gigabyte uses tpm's too, maybe you find a desktop mainboard there.
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 817 2012-09-21 18:00:58 <amiller> there's a strategy in lotteries by which you buy a "trump ticket"
 818 2012-09-21 18:01:03 <amiller> and purchase every possible combination of ticket
 819 2012-09-21 18:01:17 <amiller> 11% of lotteries have positive expected value if you're able to do that http://college.holycross.edu/RePEc/eej/Archive/Volume32/V32N4P673_684.pdf
 820 2012-09-21 18:01:47 <amiller> because of the costs involved in doing that, it has never happened
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 822 2012-09-21 18:02:34 <amiller> an australian 'consortium' once grouped together to try to purchase all the tickets and 'corner' a $25 million jackpot, but they tried and were only able to obtain about 40% of a complete set
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 826 2012-09-21 18:09:15 <kjj_> anyone know git/github?
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 833 2012-09-21 18:17:48 <copumpkin> kjj_: pretty sure nobody's ever heard of either
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 838 2012-09-21 18:18:43 <kjj_> heh.  I'm pretty sure plenty have, I'm just not sure if any are paying attention
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 840 2012-09-21 18:19:11 <jgarzik> amiller: https://github.com/jgarzik/pybond/blob/master/dht.py should be in good shape now
 841 2012-09-21 18:19:34 <kjj_> I made a pull request, then updated it based on the comments and re-pushed.  now, when I look at the diff, it shows the changes from the previous commit, not from the master.  does it look like that for everyone, or just me?  and if everyone, how do I fix it?
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 844 2012-09-21 18:23:12 <jgarzik> kjj_: It sounds like you created a new commit just to address the comments (total commits == 2) rather than 'git reset' or 'git rebase' to revise the original commit (total commits == 1).
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 846 2012-09-21 18:24:01 <kjj_> yeah, first time using git, and I don't know the terms well enough to use google to steer me to the right method
 847 2012-09-21 18:24:11 <jgarzik> kjj_: The former method is what Linus Torvalds recommends and is more git-friendly.  The latter method involves 'git push --force', rewriting history and other git unfriendly practices...... that sometimes lead to a cleaner net result.
 848 2012-09-21 18:24:44 <jgarzik> It is common in bitcoin to rebase (latter method), as it produces a cleaner diff, and cleaner upstream history.
 849 2012-09-21 18:25:03 <kjj_> ok, how do I do it the way that works best for bitcoin?
 850 2012-09-21 18:25:44 <jgarzik> kjj_: do what suits your personal style and workflow best
 851 2012-09-21 18:26:09 <kjj_> heh.  I don't have a style or a workflow.  I have a diff
 852 2012-09-21 18:26:18 <jgarzik> kjj_: a commit is a logical, atomic change of the code.  think how you want your code arranged, if it is presented as a stream of reviewable, successive changes.
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 854 2012-09-21 18:26:34 <kjj_> how can I get that diff to the rest of you in the way that works best for you?
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 857 2012-09-21 18:27:02 <kjj_> yeah, I get the stream and the tree models
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 859 2012-09-21 18:27:37 <jgarzik> kjj_: one important principle is that the code is "bisectable", which means there is never a commit that breaks the build/test workability of the software.  Sometimes you wind up creating a bunch of cosmetic, algebraically-equivalent transformations, just to prepare the code for a big change.
 860 2012-09-21 18:29:05 <jgarzik> kjj_: when working on projects inside branches of github/kjj/bitcoin.git, for submittal as bitcoin pull requests, you choose between a submission that looks like "1) my change, 2) fixes and updates based on community feedback" or "1) my change"
 861 2012-09-21 18:29:16 <jgarzik> neither choice is "right" or "wrong"
 862 2012-09-21 18:30:05 <gmaxwell> I think rewriting history is the right thing to do for personal repositories. Keeping the public history as linear as reasonably possible has value, and consolidating diffs makes review much easier.
 863 2012-09-21 18:30:17 <jgarzik> I tend to rebase.  If there is community feedback, I'll revise the original commit, and push back to github with "git push --force"
 864 2012-09-21 18:30:23 <jgarzik> But that is just a personal choice.
 865 2012-09-21 18:30:55 <jgarzik> Torvalds argues that if anybody is watching your tree (via 'git pull'), they are royally screwed if you rebase.
 866 2012-09-21 18:31:11 <kjj_> so, your pulls are always master -> latest, not master -> old -> latest ?
 867 2012-09-21 18:31:28 <amiller> can you rebase into a different branch and then pull-request that
 868 2012-09-21 18:31:30 <jgarzik> kjj_: always work on a side branch
 869 2012-09-21 18:31:42 <jgarzik> amiller: sure
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 871 2012-09-21 18:31:56 <kjj_> yeah, I'm in a branch inside my repo.  kjj2/stopdetach
 872 2012-09-21 18:32:03 <amiller> that might avoid screwing the followers then
 873 2012-09-21 18:32:36 <kjj_> I assume I have no followers.  how do I rebase so that the pull-req is clean?
 874 2012-09-21 18:32:50 <jgarzik> kjj_: I only ever pull bitcoin/bitcoin.git -> local master
 875 2012-09-21 18:32:59 <jgarzik> kjj_: then create a branch from that local master
 876 2012-09-21 18:33:14 <jgarzik> kjj_: then, after work, push branch to jgarzik/bitcoin.git
 877 2012-09-21 18:33:45 <jgarzik> Another nice thing about git is that it is not critically important that you always work on the tip of the tree.
 878 2012-09-21 18:34:13 <jgarzik> It only matters insofar as Gavin needs to be able to merge the resultant pull request
 879 2012-09-21 18:34:47 <jgarzik> thus, try to avoid the habit of "git checkout mybranch ; git pull github/bitcoin/bitcoin.git master"
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 881 2012-09-21 18:35:10 <jgarzik> (i.e. fetch latest git HEAD upstream)    Do that only when you know you need to.
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 883 2012-09-21 18:35:42 <kjj_> I hate to say it, but most of this is going way over my head
 884 2012-09-21 18:36:13 <kjj_> mostly because my total experience with git has been setting up my repo, making my changes, and making a pull-request
 885 2012-09-21 18:36:38 <gavinandresen> kjj_: Run:   git rebase -i origin/master
 886 2012-09-21 18:37:23 <gavinandresen> kjj_: ... then squash the commits into one (put "f" for fixup in the first column of the interactive rebase edit session)
 887 2012-09-21 18:37:38 <gavinandresen> kjj_: ... then git push -f to your repository
 888 2012-09-21 18:38:05 <kjj_> fixup is a third command after the two picks?
 889 2012-09-21 18:38:20 <kjj_> (not interactive for me)
 890 2012-09-21 18:38:20 <gavinandresen> wait... no...     rebase -i upstream/master, if you've got an 'upstream' remote that is the bitcoin tree
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 894 2012-09-21 18:39:17 <gavinandresen> kjj_: rebase -i should open up an editor window with instructions on what you can do
 895 2012-09-21 18:40:46 <kjj_> ok, when rebasing, do I fixup one commit, or both?
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 897 2012-09-21 18:41:30 <gavinandresen> squash (fixup) the second onto the first.
 898 2012-09-21 18:41:39 <gavinandresen> ... and edit the first's commit message, if appropriate
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 904 2012-09-21 18:44:55 <kjj_> ok, the commit is right now, except for the comment
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 917 2012-09-21 19:14:48 <jgarzik> Bitfloor reopens: https://plus.google.com/109620439233076225324/posts/bLJRDHApjSP
 918 2012-09-21 19:14:58 <jgarzik> met him at the conf... seemed like he was serious about fixing problems
 919 2012-09-21 19:15:33 <jgarzik> the interesting bit to me:  he might have taken advice to heart, about running a testnet exchange!
 920 2012-09-21 19:16:27 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
 921 2012-09-21 19:18:06 <lianj> can he cover the lost coins?
 922 2012-09-21 19:19:19 <jgarzik> lianj: over time, from profits, apparently
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 924 2012-09-21 19:21:19 <lianj> yea, just read the full post. thanks
 925 2012-09-21 19:21:36 <kjj_> ooh.  so he went fractional publicly?
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 927 2012-09-21 19:23:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, maths says ~8 years time...
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 933 2012-09-21 19:29:25 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: recompiled 0.7.0 osx binaries now up on sourceforge; the osx10.5 problem was miscompiled dependencies.  Still not sure what the Lion crash is/was, but I'm hoping compiling -pthread with an updated version of Qt will fix the issue.
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 939 2012-09-21 19:47:58 <midnightmagic> ..  fractional..?!
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 949 2012-09-21 20:00:12 <enolan> I'm getting exception: St9bad_alloc and sometimes SIGABRTs and sometimes segfaults
 950 2012-09-21 20:00:32 <enolan> all of this is new since upgrading to 0.7.0 via the official ubuntu ppa
 951 2012-09-21 20:00:40 <enolan> here's a log: http://pastebin.com/ki1iyjxd
 952 2012-09-21 20:01:21 <gmaxwell> enolan: are you running it with tight ulimits or something?
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 954 2012-09-21 20:02:41 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, hmm?
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 956 2012-09-21 20:02:58 <enolan> oh, yes. ulimit -v 1500000 is in my bashrc
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 958 2012-09-21 20:03:13 <Belkaar> Hello. Since the update to 0.7 i have "CWalletTx::GetAmounts: Unknown transaction type found, txid ----" in the log when using listtransactions. any ideas?
 959 2012-09-21 20:03:28 <enolan> I put it there to stop runaway memory allocations in my code eating all the system memory
 960 2012-09-21 20:03:33 <Belkaar> Example:  Unknown transaction type found, txid ce8a1b3ecc5400238e913579868e6c4f092f529c49f9c9041dece43b6fab1097
 961 2012-09-21 20:03:38 <phantomcircuit> iirc you're about 500MB away from working
 962 2012-09-21 20:03:44 <gmaxwell> enolan: well there you go. Why the heck would you limit the virtual memory? other than TLB entries virtual memory is free.
 963 2012-09-21 20:04:11 <phantomcircuit> FREE MEMMORIES
 964 2012-09-21 20:04:16 <phantomcircuit> YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST
 965 2012-09-21 20:04:19 * phantomcircuit runs
 966 2012-09-21 20:04:34 <enolan> gmaxwell: it was supposed to stop runaway memory allocation in my code from eating all the system memory and causing swap thrash
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 968 2012-09-21 20:04:55 <enolan> would doubling it to 3gb be sufficient? this machine has plenty of ram
 969 2012-09-21 20:05:27 <phantomcircuit> yes but more so why limit virtual memory
 970 2012-09-21 20:05:37 <phantomcircuit> limiting actual resident memory i understand
 971 2012-09-21 20:05:40 <phantomcircuit> but why virtual?
 972 2012-09-21 20:06:54 <enolan> wouldn't limiting resident memory just force processes that allocate lots of RAM to swap thrash earlier?
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 975 2012-09-21 20:07:49 <gmaxwell> you're limiting the address space, not memory usage.
 976 2012-09-21 20:08:30 <enolan> maybe I don't understand how ulimit -v works as much as I thought I did...
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 988 2012-09-21 20:25:50 <gavinandresen> Belkaar: that's a p2pool transaction with a weird, non-standard last output.  Don't know what changed with listtransactions between the last release and this, maybe Luke-Jr would remember (he added code related to displaying generation transactions)
 989 2012-09-21 20:26:53 <Belkaar> I think I read something about making txs non-standard that contain 0-outputs. maybe it's related to that?
 990 2012-09-21 20:27:06 <Belkaar> the blocks seem to be accepted tho
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 992 2012-09-21 20:27:44 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: he's talking about in the debug.log, not output from the JSON-RPC itself
 993 2012-09-21 20:27:49 <gavinandresen> Belkaar: non-standard just affects whether or not transactions are relayed across the network... since this is generation txn, that shouldn't apply
 994 2012-09-21 20:28:05 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: right, but from what he says he didn't get that in debug.log before this release
 995 2012-09-21 20:28:24 <gavinandresen> ... which makes me think some new information reported in listtransactions is triggering it
 996 2012-09-21 20:29:21 <kjj_> confirmed, the messages appear in the log when running listtransactions
 997 2012-09-21 20:30:09 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: yes, looks like you're right
 998 2012-09-21 20:30:44 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: this warning is coming from code sorting out the accounts, which had been special-cased out for generation before
 999 2012-09-21 20:31:48 <gavinandresen> Belkaar: can you open an issue on github?
1000 2012-09-21 20:32:12 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if the client should be ignoring outputs it doesn't recognize
1001 2012-09-21 20:32:16 <Belkaar> I'll try. not registered yet. but theres a first time for everything :-)
1002 2012-09-21 20:33:30 * gavinandresen has a feeling fixing that tiny little wart will open up a can of worms...
1003 2012-09-21 20:34:27 <Luke-Jr> this explains another bug I had reported too
1004 2012-09-21 20:35:21 <Luke-Jr> maybe
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1007 2012-09-21 20:38:33 <Belkaar> ok. opened an issue at github. i hope i did it right
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1009 2012-09-21 20:38:47 <kjj_> wait, does this mean that the 0.0 BTC marker transactions in the p2pool coinbases are getting added to our wallets?
1010 2012-09-21 20:41:08 <Belkaar> what is a marker transaction?
1011 2012-09-21 20:41:39 <Luke-Jr> Belkaar: looks good
1012 2012-09-21 20:41:52 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: I doubt it
1013 2012-09-21 20:41:56 <gavinandresen> it is a marker output, and yes, the transaction that output is part of is added to your wallet
1014 2012-09-21 20:42:07 <gavinandresen> ... because you own one of the other outputs
1015 2012-09-21 20:42:23 <gavinandresen> (assuming you use p2pool)
1016 2012-09-21 20:42:25 <kjj_> oh, right.  the wallet holds the whole transaction, not just my txout
1017 2012-09-21 20:44:47 * Luke-Jr interpreted the question as "does the marker txout appear in listtransactions?"
1018 2012-09-21 20:45:39 <kjj_> ahh, no it does not.  I run that pretty often to see if my rigs have earned anything recently.
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1020 2012-09-21 20:46:08 <gmaxwell> pedantically, it's not a 'marker' output, it's the merging the p2pool does.  and it's there instead of the coinbase because python sucks. :P (forrest might protest, but I believe that it would be done normally if recalculating it from python weren't slow)
1021 2012-09-21 20:47:22 <kjj_> heh, yeah, I didn't know what to call it exactly.
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1023 2012-09-21 20:50:06 <kjj_> so...  do we ask him to fix it, or do we ignore 0.00000000 txouts in that loop, or do we ignore it?
1024 2012-09-21 20:50:33 <Luke-Jr> it seems to me it would be appropriate to ignore txouts that aren't ours in this case
1025 2012-09-21 20:51:03 <Luke-Jr> doesn't fix my problem, since they ARE mine (and it could be argued it shouldn't be fixed in this case), but it would fix for p2pool
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1031 2012-09-21 21:04:53 <Belkaar> Is there a way to get the last 100 transactions no matter the account?
1032 2012-09-21 21:04:57 <jgarzik> is luke-jr the only mainnet miner that accepts non-standard transactions?
1033 2012-09-21 21:05:10 <jgarzik> good for luke-jr, sad for experimenters.
1034 2012-09-21 21:05:41 <kjj_> bitcoind listtransactions "*" 100
1035 2012-09-21 21:06:35 <Belkaar> thanks
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1046 2012-09-21 21:25:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I bet there would be more, if it didn't require recompiling bitcoind custom
1047 2012-09-21 21:26:08 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: let me know if you guys ever want to reconsider a hidden config option… ;)
1048 2012-09-21 21:26:35 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: if you have sufficient hashpower on the network, I imagine one has sufficient skill to compile
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1050 2012-09-21 21:28:33 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'm thinking about p2pool miners mostly
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1114 2012-09-21 22:45:06 <diki> I've noticed that the pager on the forum outputs ALL pages from 1 to X and am wondering why it's not fixed to display 1,2,3...NUMpages
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