1 2012-09-23 00:00:19 balrog has joined
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   3 2012-09-23 00:00:59 Randy__ has joined
   4 2012-09-23 00:01:03 <Randy__> Hi
   5 2012-09-23 00:03:10 <graingert> Randy__: hai
   6 2012-09-23 00:03:22 lggr has joined
   7 2012-09-23 00:03:25 <Randy__> Hey
   8 2012-09-23 00:03:36 <Randy__> Not allot of people here
   9 2012-09-23 00:04:19 <eian> We're here
  10 2012-09-23 00:04:31 <graingert> Randy__: this is dev, you know that right/
  11 2012-09-23 00:04:33 <graingert> ?*
  12 2012-09-23 00:04:38 <Randy__> Right
  13 2012-09-23 00:04:43 <Randy__> I dont go here very often
  14 2012-09-23 00:04:45 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  15 2012-09-23 00:04:50 <graingert> cool
  16 2012-09-23 00:05:15 <Randy__> It it developers using bitcoins, or bitcoin developers them-self?
  17 2012-09-23 00:05:29 <eian> both
  18 2012-09-23 00:05:37 <Randy__> oh ok
  19 2012-09-23 00:05:40 <graingert> and people interested therin
  20 2012-09-23 00:05:47 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
  21 2012-09-23 00:06:02 <graingert> as long as you don't troll it's quite welcoming
  22 2012-09-23 00:06:16 <gmaxwell> The general gab channel is #bitcoin
  23 2012-09-23 00:06:24 <Randy__> I am serious in what I am doing. Don't worry.
  24 2012-09-23 00:07:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  25 2012-09-23 00:10:33 <Randy__> Hey don't you guys worry the Gouv' seek in banning bitcoins soon?
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  28 2012-09-23 00:16:01 <Randy__> Hey GMaxwell, where can I go to help contribute to the bitcoin development?
  29 2012-09-23 00:16:39 <graingert> Randy__: http://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
  30 2012-09-23 00:17:10 <Randy__> Ok right, so I just pull requests my changes..
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  33 2012-09-23 00:17:34 <graingert> Randy__: you might want to make a BIP first...
  34 2012-09-23 00:17:38 <gmaxwell> Randy__: yes, generally best to discuss anything majort; of course... this is a fine place for that.
  35 2012-09-23 00:18:10 <gmaxwell> graingert: gah. BIPs are _not_ for random fixes or improvements to the reference software; and no one should start with a BIP
  36 2012-09-23 00:18:34 <graingert> before you make a major change, you need to make a BIP before you send a pull
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  38 2012-09-23 00:18:39 <Randy__> Ok thanks
  39 2012-09-23 00:18:47 <gmaxwell> graingert: No, thats not correct either.
  40 2012-09-23 00:19:00 <graingert> and before you BIP you discuss right?
  41 2012-09-23 00:19:41 <gmaxwell> graingert: BIP's are for things that have protocol, cross-implementation, or ecosystem impact. And they should be discussed (and probably have working code of some kind) before they're tendered.
  42 2012-09-23 00:20:03 <graingert> yeah in a topic branch
  43 2012-09-23 00:20:12 <Randy__> Do you have people trying to figure out solutions in eliminating the full blockchain download for the normal client?
  44 2012-09-23 00:20:29 <graingert> Randy__: there are a bunch at the moment
  45 2012-09-23 00:20:32 <Randy__> Simplifying the blockchain
  46 2012-09-23 00:20:40 <graingert> Randy__: just have to be implimented
  47 2012-09-23 00:20:48 <graingert> or activated
  48 2012-09-23 00:20:50 <Randy__> Ok, where should I start looking?
  49 2012-09-23 00:21:03 <Randy__> Is there a group that started dev. one of the possible solutions?
  50 2012-09-23 00:21:05 <graingert> eg MTUT and finalising pruning
  51 2012-09-23 00:21:18 <Randy__> Great news
  52 2012-09-23 00:22:06 <gmaxwell> There is no development ongoing which would allow full nodes to not need to _download_ the full chain.
  53 2012-09-23 00:24:07 <gmaxwell> There is _discussion_ (no code; no timeframes) for things what will allow 'semi-full' nodes which hot-start without fetching the history; but there are security implications of this (it's strictly less secure). And it's complicated work, will ultimately require a soft-forking protocol change, and is probably not a good starting point for someone new to bitcoin development.
  54 2012-09-23 00:24:15 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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  56 2012-09-23 00:24:24 <gmaxwell> There is a lot of very nearterm work that will make blockchain validation _much_ faster.
  57 2012-09-23 00:24:29 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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  60 2012-09-23 00:25:07 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1677  synced a full node for me today in 49 minutes.
  61 2012-09-23 00:25:21 <Randy__> ok g2g, I will check back in later
  62 2012-09-23 00:25:25 <Randy__> Thanks for your help
  63 2012-09-23 00:25:33 <gmaxwell> And once the threaded ECDSA goes in it'll probably be more like 35 minutes.
  64 2012-09-23 00:25:58 <graingert> threaded ECDSA ?
  65 2012-09-23 00:26:12 <gmaxwell> graingert: doing signature validation on multiple cores.
  66 2012-09-23 00:26:24 <gmaxwell> all that is currently single threaded.
  67 2012-09-23 00:26:39 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  68 2012-09-23 00:26:47 <gmaxwell> The latter 33 minutes of that 49 is cpu bound.
  69 2012-09-23 00:27:06 <graingert> gmaxwell: is it map(validate,signatures) or threaded ECDSA
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  71 2012-09-23 00:27:27 <gmaxwell> graingert: doing single ecdsa operations in parallel would be silly.
  72 2012-09-23 00:27:40 <graingert> yes, which is why you confused me
  73 2012-09-23 00:27:59 <gmaxwell> We also have some old ecdsa code from hal which is about 20% faster.
  74 2012-09-23 00:28:08 <graingert> HAL ?
  75 2012-09-23 00:28:26 <graingert> Harware Abstr~1
  76 2012-09-23 00:28:27 <graingert> ?
  77 2012-09-23 00:28:29 <gmaxwell> Hal Finney
  78 2012-09-23 00:28:52 <graingert> is hal his foaf:nickname?
  79 2012-09-23 00:30:09 <gmaxwell> Hal is his name. He is well known in the Bitcoin community (and elsewhere, too); well less so by newbies as he now has less bandwidth to the outside world than the voyger probes.
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 144 2012-09-23 02:18:12 <amiller> jgarzik, i was able to verify that it's using keep-alive
 145 2012-09-23 02:18:28 <amiller> curl -v --user rpcuser:asdflkajsdlfkj --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "getinfo", "params": [] }' http://localhost:9332/
 146 2012-09-23 02:18:40 <amiller> * Connection #0 to host localhost left intact
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 149 2012-09-23 02:30:27 <jgarzik> amiller: good enough
 150 2012-09-23 02:31:44 <jgarzik> amiller: time for a pull req?
 151 2012-09-23 02:32:40 <amiller> it's taking me a long time to catch up to the front of the chain, i'm at 140k now with pynode
 152 2012-09-23 02:32:57 <amiller> so i think i'll rebase and pull req as soon as i'm sure that's working alright
 153 2012-09-23 02:34:03 <jgarzik> amiller: yeah, it takes a while, as it does not have multi-threaded script verf :/
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 156 2012-09-23 02:37:16 <amiller> while it's busy verifying, it appears to be less responsive with gevent than with asyncore, in that it takes longer to process rpc requests while its busy
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 171 2012-09-23 02:59:24 <jgarzik> amiller: hrm, did everything get reformatted?
 172 2012-09-23 02:59:39 <amiller> yeah i couldn't handle the tabs
 173 2012-09-23 02:59:46 <amiller> i'm trying to split that into two commits so it looks better
 174 2012-09-23 03:00:19 <jgarzik> amiller: it's going back to tab to be consistent with the rest of the code, though
 175 2012-09-23 03:00:31 <jgarzik> amiller: a bit difficult to spot and review changes
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 177 2012-09-23 03:00:50 <amiller> k let me replace it with tabs in my own commit
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 182 2012-09-23 03:11:35 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/pynode/commit/efa6a1e054fdb4aeac9ab267f0096bb3133283f2 this is probably good enough jgarzik there are a couple of unnecessary whitespace changes but not very many
 183 2012-09-23 03:11:38 Apexseals has joined
 184 2012-09-23 03:11:59 <jgarzik> amiller: anything is better than 100% changed ;p
 185 2012-09-23 03:13:52 <jgarzik> amiller: yep, looks grat
 186 2012-09-23 03:13:54 <jgarzik> *great
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 195 2012-09-23 03:34:44 <jgarzik> amiller: might need 'git push --force' to update the pynode pull request
 196 2012-09-23 03:35:16 <jgarzik> amiller: pull req shows commit from ~5 hours ago
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 198 2012-09-23 03:35:47 <amiller> it's the timestamp from the first squashed commit, efa6a1e is my newest
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 201 2012-09-23 03:37:22 <jgarzik> amiller: ah, ok
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 215 2012-09-23 04:04:02 <amiller> jgarzik, here's a profile run http://i.imgur.com/khuT7.png
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 217 2012-09-23 04:07:48 <amiller> not sure how reliable this is with gevent, but i think it means that gdbm is the bottleneck
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 219 2012-09-23 04:08:55 <amiller> gonna try replacing gdbm with leveldb and see how that goes
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 221 2012-09-23 04:09:57 <jaxtr> cygwin X server is quite handy
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 230 2012-09-23 04:26:54 <jgarzik> amiller: database is absolutely a bottleneck.  it is Quite Shitty(tm) design
 231 2012-09-23 04:27:17 <jgarzik> amiller: I was intending to use https://github.com/jgarzik/pagedb
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 233 2012-09-23 04:27:40 <jgarzik> amiller: but a mature, working replacement is certainly preferred
 234 2012-09-23 04:28:08 optimator_ is now known as optimator
 235 2012-09-23 04:28:23 <jgarzik> amiller: right now, with multiple gdbm databases, pynode is not even transactional for a single block
 236 2012-09-23 04:28:42 <jgarzik> amiller: pagedb is my attempt to do leveldb-like transactional db
 237 2012-09-23 04:30:13 <amiller> jgarzik, you should see how sexy gevent works with ipython
 238 2012-09-23 04:30:26 <amiller> i'm used to doing this with other graphics-based eventloops like opengl, but it works just as well for distributed things
 239 2012-09-23 04:30:44 <amiller> you can modify code and restart it without having to actually restart your process
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 241 2012-09-23 04:32:05 <jgarzik> amiller: know what else is a pynode bottleneck?  what shows up at the top of all profiles?  python object copying, of the CTransaction objects within a block, during SignatureHash() script verification.
 242 2012-09-23 04:32:25 <jgarzik> amiller: if you are a python guru (I'm not), optimizing that one operation will shave hours off full block chain verification
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 244 2012-09-23 04:35:02 <amiller> http://i.imgur.com/VISjU.png
 245 2012-09-23 04:35:08 <amiller> here we go, look how much of a difference that makes
 246 2012-09-23 04:36:40 <jgarzik> amiller: cool
 247 2012-09-23 04:37:28 <amiller> let me see if i can rebase and meet up with you again, i have no idea what to do
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 249 2012-09-23 04:38:13 <jgarzik> amiller: give me a sec
 250 2012-09-23 04:38:23 <jgarzik> amiller: still need to push out your stuff
 251 2012-09-23 04:39:19 <jgarzik> amiller: OK, pushed
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 255 2012-09-23 04:53:42 <amiller> ah its faster but i'm not sure it's working correctly with gevent
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 266 2012-09-23 05:07:57 <jgarzik> amiller: you really want to do a batch write, and wrap all those db updates into a single log event
 267 2012-09-23 05:09:40 <jgarzik> (if I understand leveldb correctly)
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 271 2012-09-23 05:13:13 <jgarzik> whee
 272 2012-09-23 05:14:07 <jgarzik> Very happy about gevent upgrade in pynode.  This sweeps away an asyncore bug so annoying that it blocked multi-peer node operations.
 273 2012-09-23 05:14:49 <jgarzik> amiller: really we should do multiprocess in pynode:  (1) network, (2) database, (3) N workers for parallel verification
 274 2012-09-23 05:14:52 <amiller> ad hoc state machines are inherently evil
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 276 2012-09-23 05:15:50 <jgarzik> note I said multi-process and not multi-thread ;p
 277 2012-09-23 05:15:58 <amiller> yeah i'm good at multiprocess
 278 2012-09-23 05:16:18 <amiller> i don't understand how to do concurrent verification
 279 2012-09-23 05:17:27 <jgarzik> amiller: in theory each TX may be processed in parallel, and there is quite a bit of I/O parallelization
 280 2012-09-23 05:17:54 <jgarzik> amiller: plus, you make parallel the expensive CTransaction copying within SignatureHash that I've measured
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 286 2012-09-23 05:26:38 <jgarzik> amiller: what are your plans vis a vis pybond and gevent?  Shall I go ahead and do that conversion myself?
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 288 2012-09-23 05:26:51 <jgarzik> should mirror pynode
 289 2012-09-23 05:27:58 <amiller> yeah you should give that a try, i don't think there are any troubles
 290 2012-09-23 05:28:25 <amiller> i'm working on batch writes and then i'm going to try putting the db in a subprocess with a queue
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 293 2012-09-23 05:29:08 <jgarzik> cool
 294 2012-09-23 05:29:16 <jgarzik> pybond DHT should go live in 24-48 hours then
 295 2012-09-23 05:31:07 <jgarzik> <amiller> ah its faster but i'm not sure it's working correctly with gevent  <<-- so I should not pull leveldb into pynode?
 296 2012-09-23 05:31:24 <amiller> yeah don't pull that yet
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 298 2012-09-23 05:32:13 <amiller> jgarzik, when you start pynode fresh, do you see a lot of TX ff9ec1c4b48dd1121901e554b2c96a34db0da1596db20d9c3ddd9ee182831e93/0 no-dep 6ab5a21d401bcb99511391d034c92bfc4646d7509eb941a3c4172ec8c60caa0a
 299 2012-09-23 05:32:21 <amiller> er, i mean MemPool: Ignoring failed-sig TX
 300 2012-09-23 05:32:46 <jgarzik> amiller: yes.  "no-dep" == I have not seen that dependency, so I cannot verify the signature, so I am dropping the TX on the floor
 301 2012-09-23 05:33:16 <jgarzik> amiller: illustrates a TODO item: implement TX orphan cache, and associated processing
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 303 2012-09-23 05:34:51 <jgarzik> amiller: bitcoin keeps a cache, capped at 10000 entries.  if a dependency appears, the TX is moved cache -> mempool.
 304 2012-09-23 05:35:31 <jgarzik> no-dep leads to failed-sig.
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 313 2012-09-23 06:03:16 <dwon> Hey, does anyone know who's responsible for contrib/debian/?  Was the stuff in that dir copied from Debian's bitcoin package or vice versa?
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 321 2012-09-23 06:29:43 <Luke-Jr> dwon: BlueMatt
 322 2012-09-23 06:29:52 <jgarzik> amiller: Here's a partial pybond conversion, http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/patch.pybond-greenlet
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 324 2012-09-23 06:30:11 <dwon> Luke-Jr: Thanks.
 325 2012-09-23 06:30:22 <jgarzik> amiller: ran into lack of knowledge about how to share incoming and outgoing TCP connections in the same code, and stopped.
 326 2012-09-23 06:30:56 <amiller> if you put it into a git branch i can play with it
 327 2012-09-23 06:30:58 <jgarzik> amiller: i.e. StreamServer() does not automatically plug into NodeConn().  This is a problem that pynode must solve as well.
 328 2012-09-23 06:31:39 <jgarzik> in both pynode and pybond's cases, the P2P "server" and "client" connections must share much logic
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 335 2012-09-23 06:45:00 <amiller> okay jgarzik you may want to try pulling my leveldb commit, it's pretty cool, here's the score so far http://imgur.com/z4Ebx
 336 2012-09-23 06:45:53 <amiller> write baching made it much more efficient, now it's mostly limited by the signature throughput as we'd expect
 337 2012-09-23 06:46:40 <amiller> also it no longer jams up my whole computer like gdbm did wtf
 338 2012-09-23 06:46:46 <amiller> that's kind of the important part
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 346 2012-09-23 06:56:51 <amiller> ahh lol
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 348 2012-09-23 06:59:08 <amiller> okay i fixed the major contention, by putting a tiny gevent.sleep() at the beginning of the 'doblock' command
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 357 2012-09-23 07:04:48 <jgarzik> amiller: I bet that problem would not have existed if you were using an ad hoc state machine ;p
 358 2012-09-23 07:05:20 * jgarzik doesn't trust any model that does not accurately reflect the way execution and blocking work in the kernel
 359 2012-09-23 07:05:51 <jgarzik> you wind up peppering your code with sleep() and yield() in odd places
 360 2012-09-23 07:06:18 <amiller> well the only reason it shows up here is that it buffers a lot of getblocks
 361 2012-09-23 07:06:30 <amiller> and then it processes all the putblocks with no yielding in between
 362 2012-09-23 07:08:59 * jgarzik is timing a block chain import w/ pynode + leveldb
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 364 2012-09-23 07:09:52 * jgarzik still thinks start-async-operation(my callback) more accurately reflects hardware and OS APIs
 365 2012-09-23 07:10:35 <jgarzik> emulating a blocking API, when underlying is non-blocking, just leads to more code and effort
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 376 2012-09-23 07:23:14 <jgarzik> amiller: another help would be to store blocks themselves outside the database, in a flat file a la bitcoind
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 378 2012-09-23 07:26:56 <midnightmagic> sipa: Any reason why I shouldn't use /ultraprune with a real wallet and spend some bitcoins with it?
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 382 2012-09-23 07:30:55 <amiller> jgarzik, this is my buddy brandyn, he wrote the hadoopy library and has all the practical python knowledge, we usually work together on computer vision projects
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 384 2012-09-23 07:30:59 <amiller> i only know how to use gevent because he figured it out first
 385 2012-09-23 07:31:49 <amiller> anyway if the leveldb behavior is stable, the lowest hanging fruit now is the serialization
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 387 2012-09-23 07:32:55 <amiller> it's slow to use python struct, the best way is to use cython to compile a short c routine
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 400 2012-09-23 08:09:03 <wumpus> midnightmagic: I've tested around a bit with ultraprune on the testnet, did not run into any problems
 401 2012-09-23 08:09:09 <midnightmagic> wumpus: Thank you.
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 486 2012-09-23 10:59:15 <Diapolo> When I want to protect a variable because of it beeing used in multiple threads, do I need to lock it when is't written to AND read from?
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 489 2012-09-23 11:06:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, cant build cpuminer on ubuntu because of missing libcurl auotconf macros
 490 2012-09-23 11:06:14 <phantomcircuit> :(
 491 2012-09-23 11:06:23 <Arnavion> Diapolo, yes
 492 2012-09-23 11:06:31 <Arnavion> unless you can guarantee the writes will be atomic
 493 2012-09-23 11:06:37 <Arnavion> and the reads
 494 2012-09-23 11:07:20 <phantomcircuit> Diapolo, for reads it depends on what kind of variable it is
 495 2012-09-23 11:07:34 <phantomcircuit> if it's an integer you can atomically read the value
 496 2012-09-23 11:07:38 <phantomcircuit> without a lock
 497 2012-09-23 11:07:56 <phantomcircuit> if it's a complex data structure than you probably want a lock for both reads and writes
 498 2012-09-23 11:08:14 <phantomcircuit> and somebody will yell at me about the not using a lock for reads of simple variables thing too
 499 2012-09-23 11:08:14 <Arnavion> It's not _guaranteed_ for ints either, is it?
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 504 2012-09-23 11:08:26 <Arnavion> Just that every arch has atomic r/w for ints?
 505 2012-09-23 11:08:43 <phantomcircuit> Arnavion, in c reads of a single int is guaranteed atomic
 506 2012-09-23 11:08:45 <Diapolo> As it's not a simple integer I'm fine with your answer, thanks :).
 507 2012-09-23 11:09:20 <phantomcircuit> Arnavion, although i guess that depends on the specific architecture but really what arch doesn't have atomic r/w of words?
 508 2012-09-23 11:09:26 <Arnavion> Yeah
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 510 2012-09-23 11:09:43 <Arnavion> It's not guaranteed by the spec, but it IS true of common arches
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 514 2012-09-23 11:17:06 <Diapolo> Nice, Secunia accepted my request to add Bitcoin-Qt into their database: http://i47.tinypic.com/3eqli.png
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 523 2012-09-23 11:32:59 <sharperguy> How do i get the package libdb4.8++-dev on ubuntu?
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 528 2012-09-23 11:38:53 <sharperguy> Ah looks like 5.1 is the new standard in ubuntu 12.04
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 544 2012-09-23 12:11:00 <TD> hmm
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 546 2012-09-23 12:11:08 <TD> mempool size seems to be increasing steadily with time
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 550 2012-09-23 12:15:24 <Arnavion> sharperguy If you use 5.1, then your wallet will be incompatible with clients which use 4.8
 551 2012-09-23 12:17:33 <sharperguy> oh :/ Well ubuntu doesnt have that package anymore, so I don't know how to build it
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 553 2012-09-23 12:19:43 <Hasimir> sharperguy, compile from source, in /opt/local if it screws too much with /usr/local
 554 2012-09-23 12:22:13 <sharperguy> All I need are the header files - I can't compile those from source
 555 2012-09-23 12:23:07 <jdnavarro> has there been any change with the magic bytes for the testnet in version 0.7.0?
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 560 2012-09-23 12:29:27 <jdnavarro> I just found out with wireshark that it's now 0x0B110907 instead of 0xDAB5BFFA as it's specified in the wiki
 561 2012-09-23 12:29:37 <jdnavarro> am I missing something?
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 566 2012-09-23 12:37:17 <darkhosis> anyone else experienced a gradual +memory creep?  i hadn't checked for about 72hrs and my kimsufi was swamped (was so slow had to kill the bitcoind process)....  seemed like it was eating a few more MB every few minutes
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 572 2012-09-23 12:57:51 <TD> darkhosis: it's not a memory leak. the memory pool is slowly expanding, though
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 574 2012-09-23 12:58:00 <TD> a few mb every few minutes sounds a bit extreme though
 575 2012-09-23 12:59:58 <darkhosis> some tx's that never go through?
 576 2012-09-23 13:00:21 <darkhosis> yeah that was exaggerating a bit i guess.  more like a dozen MB an hour probably
 577 2012-09-23 13:01:57 <darkhosis> wasn't a big deal on this hetzner, but that kimsufi with the 2GB was trashed
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 659 2012-09-23 14:30:40 <Randy_> Hey did anyone go to the bitcoin conference in London?
 660 2012-09-23 14:31:17 <sipa> yes
 661 2012-09-23 14:31:32 <phantomcircuit> Randy_, no the rooms were empty
 662 2012-09-23 14:31:36 * phantomcircuit runs
 663 2012-09-23 14:31:56 <Randy_> You where there?
 664 2012-09-23 14:32:03 <phantomcircuit> uh yes?
 665 2012-09-23 14:32:28 <Randy_> http://bitcoin2012.com/ At this one
 666 2012-09-23 14:32:32 <sipa> midnightmagic: less tested, potential subtle bugs, perhaps database format will still change (though it ahouldnt)
 667 2012-09-23 14:33:22 <sipa> midnightmagic: if you don't mine or accept coins, it is probably safe
 668 2012-09-23 14:33:44 <phantomcircuit> Randy_, there hasn't been any other conference in london so yes?
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 671 2012-09-23 14:34:43 <Randy_> I was surprised that it didn't work as planned.
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 674 2012-09-23 14:37:52 <phantomcircuit> Randy_, i was joking...
 675 2012-09-23 14:38:05 <phantomcircuit> there were several hundred people there
 676 2012-09-23 14:38:10 <Randy_> ?
 677 2012-09-23 14:38:14 <Randy_> lol
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 706 2012-09-23 15:40:45 * Greee New Mining Pool Server ( GBT Protocol , ASCI Support ) no fees , pm for details.
 707 2012-09-23 15:40:49 asa1024 has joined
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 710 2012-09-23 15:49:16 <sipa> asci?
 711 2012-09-23 15:49:24 <sipa> ah, asic!
 712 2012-09-23 15:50:21 <Greee> yeah sry
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 721 2012-09-23 16:06:57 <Joric> huh ascii mining
 722 2012-09-23 16:07:16 <Joric> fancy!
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 732 2012-09-23 16:32:04 <jgarzik> amiller: IMO the low hanging fruit is getting the network code ready for P2P
 733 2012-09-23 16:32:25 <jgarzik> amiller: right now the gevent code is only useful for outgoing connections, and it needs to work for incoming connections too
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 736 2012-09-23 16:35:18 <ageis> my bitcoin-qt is segfaulting, can anyone make sense of the db.log http://ageispolis.net/test/db.txt
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 738 2012-09-23 16:35:36 <amiller> jgarzik, k i'll try to fix that up for you right quick now, but i'm expecting to get 50% improvement by replacing the serialization
 739 2012-09-23 16:35:44 <amiller> i ran validation over night and i'm still at 175k or so
 740 2012-09-23 16:36:28 <jgarzik> amiller: downloading from the network, I presume?
 741 2012-09-23 16:37:08 <jgarzik> amiller: I imported from a block chain file with reorganizations inside it, and your new leveldb code does not survive, whereas the older gdbm stuff did:  http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/blk0001.dat.bz2
 742 2012-09-23 16:38:29 <amiller> yeah downloading from the network
 743 2012-09-23 16:38:33 <sipa> ageis: what does debug.log say?
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 745 2012-09-23 16:38:47 <amiller> jgarzik, i see, if i try it out with that one, then i can observe reorganizations
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 747 2012-09-23 16:39:35 <ageis> lets see
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 751 2012-09-23 16:40:08 <ageis> Loading addresses...
 752 2012-09-23 16:40:09 <ageis> dbenv.open LogDir=/home/joe/.bitcoin/database ErrorFile=/home/joe/.bitcoin/db.log
 753 2012-09-23 16:40:33 <sipa> ageis: still on 0.6.3 ?
 754 2012-09-23 16:40:40 <ageis> ah yes
 755 2012-09-23 16:40:52 <ageis> i'll upgrade..
 756 2012-09-23 16:41:00 <sipa> wait
 757 2012-09-23 16:41:11 <sipa> first try removing addr.dat
 758 2012-09-23 16:41:15 <ageis> ok
 759 2012-09-23 16:41:30 <sipa> (don't delete wallet.dat by all means)
 760 2012-09-23 16:41:34 <ageis> that worked
 761 2012-09-23 16:41:36 <ageis> i think
 762 2012-09-23 16:41:48 <ageis> so my address file got corrupt somehow
 763 2012-09-23 16:41:55 <sipa> yes, looks like it
 764 2012-09-23 16:42:15 <sipa> but 0.7 doesn't use addr.dat anymore, a.O; because it frequently got corrupted
 765 2012-09-23 16:42:25 <ageis> hehe
 766 2012-09-23 16:42:37 <ageis> what does it use?
 767 2012-09-23 16:42:51 <sipa> peers.dat, which is not a database file anymore, but manually managed
 768 2012-09-23 16:42:59 <ageis> gotcha
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 770 2012-09-23 16:46:29 <ageis> i like how it shows (out of sync) now, that's nice
 771 2012-09-23 16:46:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, parallel signature checking should help a lot, but my latest branch still got reproducible segfaults every few hours, so i'd rather have ultraprune be merged without it
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 774 2012-09-23 16:47:52 <sipa> well, not necessarily right now, it deserves an awful lot of testing, but i can't guarantee that i'll have enough time soon to fix it
 775 2012-09-23 16:49:34 <amiller> jgarzik, when you say does not survive, what happens?
 776 2012-09-23 16:49:56 <amiller> and can you walk me through testing this? i've had a hard time getting different forms of bitcoin block dumps to work
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 779 2012-09-23 16:50:46 <jgarzik> amiller: add loadblock=/path/to/blk0001.dat in pynode's configuration file
 780 2012-09-23 16:51:20 <jgarzik> amiller: start with an empty database directory
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 782 2012-09-23 16:51:52 <jgarzik> amiller: it will say "REORGANIZE" in the log, and call ChainDb's reorganize() method
 783 2012-09-23 16:52:01 <jgarzik> amiller: locally, it just kept printing REORGANIZE
 784 2012-09-23 16:52:20 <jgarzik> amiller: NOTE: it is possible that this simply exposes a bug that gdbm hit
 785 2012-09-23 16:52:50 <amiller> there's probably a simpler solution
 786 2012-09-23 16:53:15 <amiller> which is that i had to change a bunch of logic replacing 'if x then' with 'try: x except:'
 787 2012-09-23 16:53:28 <amiller> but there were also some 'if not x then's
 788 2012-09-23 16:53:34 <amiller> and i probably mixed up half of them :o
 789 2012-09-23 16:53:46 <amiller> i probably just haven't seen any reorgs so i didn't catch it
 790 2012-09-23 16:54:06 <jgarzik> amiller: yeah, you -never- see that case when IBD'ing across the network
 791 2012-09-23 16:54:18 <amiller> ibd?
 792 2012-09-23 16:54:23 <jgarzik> amiller: you would need a specially prepared file (like my example), or wait until the network produces one naturally
 793 2012-09-23 16:54:30 <amiller> interactive block download?
 794 2012-09-23 16:54:33 <jgarzik> amiller: IBD: Initial Block Download, aka network sync
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 797 2012-09-23 16:56:47 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/pynode/commit/e268e6556c7ddf726f5c8e707a493edf608e460f#L0R416 ah typo here
 798 2012-09-23 16:56:57 <amiller> s/blkmeta/blkmeta:
 799 2012-09-23 16:57:13 <amiller> maybe you can fix that and try it out while i download blk0001.dat
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 801 2012-09-23 17:10:02 <jgarzik> amiller: ok
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 803 2012-09-23 17:13:25 <amiller> jgarzik, can you give me a digest for blk0001.dat.bz2, i think i corrupted it during the dl
 804 2012-09-23 17:14:29 <jgarzik> amiller: bzip2 -tv $file
 805 2012-09-23 17:14:38 <jgarzik> amiller: the container has integrity tests too
 806 2012-09-23 17:16:43 <jgarzik> amiller: s/blkmeta/blkmeta:/ fix seems to have made progress
 807 2012-09-23 17:17:17 <jgarzik> amiller: sha256sum 073b0d2dfd3256ce400692b5115e1a0a5c533c26f66b0ece9a92c43635e8ae86
 808 2012-09-23 17:17:26 <jgarzik> amiller: sha1sum d4d92f31e21e38b05c23ead4a26dacfa6f120696
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 810 2012-09-23 17:18:32 <jgarzik> amiller: crashed at reorg here, http://pastebin.com/HEUDyQs7
 811 2012-09-23 17:19:18 <amiller> lol i missed that one too
 812 2012-09-23 17:19:53 <jgarzik> amiller: what is the existence test?  self.db.Exists()?
 813 2012-09-23 17:19:56 <amiller> no
 814 2012-09-23 17:20:05 <jgarzik> amiller: a useless Get?
 815 2012-09-23 17:20:12 <amiller> keep going :p
 816 2012-09-23 17:20:31 <amiller> use a try: and just put the Get inside the try
 817 2012-09-23 17:21:30 <jgarzik> amiller: yes, that is what I meant by a useless Get ;p
 818 2012-09-23 17:21:38 <jgarzik> amiller: one code line becomes 3-4
 819 2012-09-23 17:22:00 <amiller> no the point is you save a get
 820 2012-09-23 17:22:13 <amiller> if you really want an Exists then it's a one-line
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 822 2012-09-23 17:22:30 <amiller> that will put you back to one line of code for the cases where you really just want an exist (and it isn't followed by a get)
 823 2012-09-23 17:22:54 <amiller> def Exists(k): try: db.Get(k) return True except KeyError: return False
 824 2012-09-23 17:23:43 <jgarzik> amiller: for the try...etc. idiom, the source code LOC increases at each usage site.
 825 2012-09-23 17:23:47 <jgarzik> amiller: for Exists, the underlying machinery wastes time returning a data item's key+value from the database, only to throw away that memory immediately upon return.  That's why most embedded database solutions have Exists as well as Get.
 826 2012-09-23 17:24:09 <jgarzik> it matters if you do a lot of existence tests
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 828 2012-09-23 17:25:01 <jgarzik> or in this case, one must retrieve a key+value... in order to delete it.
 829 2012-09-23 17:25:54 <amiller> so there are three cases.
 830 2012-09-23 17:26:32 <amiller> 1. Exists followed by Get:  leveldb caches and so does any database with an explicit Exist, so get followed by get is still pretty quick but it's two lines of code there anyway
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 833 2012-09-23 17:29:11 <amiller> meh i'm not going to finish my enumeration there
 834 2012-09-23 17:30:14 <amiller> py-leveldb doesn't come with an Exist
 835 2012-09-23 17:30:31 <amiller> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/leveldb/2JJ4smpSC6Q/TYk7tsIQ1E8J this post suggests that there is a faster exist in leveldb that py-leveldb might be upgraded to use
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 837 2012-09-23 17:32:45 <jgarzik> amiller: owel, too lazy do that ;p
 838 2012-09-23 17:33:23 <amiller> as far as idioms go, i'd happily trade a line of code for a much more pleasing idom :]
 839 2012-09-23 17:33:36 <jgarzik> amiller: my hands disagree, youngster
 840 2012-09-23 17:34:06 <jgarzik> amiller: lunchtime. we'll see if these two fixes make it past reorg...
 841 2012-09-23 17:34:07 * amiller launches spitball
 842 2012-09-23 17:34:10 <jgarzik> ;p
 843 2012-09-23 17:34:16 <amiller> k blk.dat.bz2 recovered
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 879 2012-09-23 18:35:24 <jgarzik> drat.  reorg test broken by a typo.
 880 2012-09-23 18:35:37 <jgarzik> one of the reasons why python is inferior to C/C++ ;p
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 885 2012-09-23 18:37:06 <amiller> jgarzik, you should probably _try_ to run static analysis on your python code :p
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 887 2012-09-23 18:37:33 <jgarzik> amiller: how?
 888 2012-09-23 18:38:13 <amiller> pyflakes/pylint/pychecker
 889 2012-09-23 18:38:47 <amiller> i don't know how to use them effectively, and my code probably has lots of unnecessary bugs in it
 890 2012-09-23 18:39:42 <amiller> (this doesn't detract from your point about C/C++)
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 893 2012-09-23 18:41:46 <jgarzik> I can prototype more rapidly in python, being seemingly more productive.  However, a rather large class of errors that is trivial to detect in statically typed languages is missed in python.
 894 2012-09-23 18:42:03 <amiller> i'm in the strange place of being halfway between python and haskell
 895 2012-09-23 18:42:22 <jgarzik> those are my type of errors, too...  I tend to make few design errors, but plenty of typos-in-obscure-places
 896 2012-09-23 18:42:23 <amiller> the types are more powerful, so they express important invariants in your code, not just the trivial things like int->int
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 898 2012-09-23 18:42:48 <jgarzik> indeed.  and quite a bit of python code is type-static in practice
 899 2012-09-23 18:42:48 <amiller> but i'm not productive in anything except python, and barely productive in python so i'm not going to give that up
 900 2012-09-23 18:43:56 <jgarzik> rpython is interesting.  there are some other attempts to compile (not just VM) python that add type annotations, changing the language a bit.
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 902 2012-09-23 18:44:39 <jgarzik> C requires a lot of reinventing the wheel.
 903 2012-09-23 18:44:54 <jgarzik> C++ requires acres of boilerplate, to get the core code looking the way you want it too
 904 2012-09-23 18:45:15 <jgarzik> Python is rapid-productive, but several classes of errors are easier to achieve and hide in the code
 905 2012-09-23 18:45:23 <jgarzik> and python is slow
 906 2012-09-23 18:45:47 <amiller> so for when it counts
 907 2012-09-23 18:46:06 <amiller> er well especially for small inner loops, i like to use cython
 908 2012-09-23 18:46:21 <amiller> that's a statically checked compiled language that goes from python->C and you get a safe python module as a result
 909 2012-09-23 18:46:46 <jgarzik> cute
 910 2012-09-23 18:47:02 <jgarzik> for production, I would just write a CPython module in C
 911 2012-09-23 18:47:07 <amiller> fair enough
 912 2012-09-23 18:47:16 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 913 2012-09-23 18:47:52 <jgarzik> I was thinking about anti-flooding schemes for the pybond DHT, and thinking about proof-of-work.
 914 2012-09-23 18:48:07 <jgarzik> if pybond needs to generate a proof-of-work, it would almost certainly require a C module
 915 2012-09-23 18:48:46 <amiller> how can you make a dht that has like an adjustable/subjective value for proof-of-work filtering
 916 2012-09-23 18:48:52 <amiller> i would want it to be like publish-subscribe somehow
 917 2012-09-23 18:48:59 <amiller> where you say "i'm interested in things with X much work"
 918 2012-09-23 18:49:02 <amiller> and you get those
 919 2012-09-23 18:49:15 fpgaminer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 920 2012-09-23 18:49:21 <amiller> and you can give higher priority to higher difficulty things
 921 2012-09-23 18:49:47 <amiller> this way you could have a combined namespace that's a dht for bitcoin blocks, as well as lower work items like pybond work
 922 2012-09-23 18:49:50 <jgarzik> amiller: open to suggestions ;p    I was mainly thinking of requiring proof-of-work for NODE_ID, thus increasing the cost of generating a NODE_ID.  Then you detect flooding based on that.
 923 2012-09-23 18:49:58 <amiller> i see
 924 2012-09-23 18:50:00 <jgarzik> Obviously not foolproof by any means
 925 2012-09-23 18:50:24 <jgarzik> DHTs are vulnerable to data flooding and Sybil attacks
 926 2012-09-23 18:50:47 <amiller> hrm
 927 2012-09-23 18:51:00 <jgarzik> I was thinking of requiring _some_ sort of cost, to publish data in the DHT
 928 2012-09-23 18:51:06 <amiller> dues paying / membership fee
 929 2012-09-23 18:51:10 <amiller> yeah
 930 2012-09-23 18:51:28 <jgarzik> well, it doesn't have to be a direct monetary cost.  it could be "require PoW" somehow.
 931 2012-09-23 18:51:31 <amiller> the trouble with proof of work is that it's often expected to be free, when really the point is that it should be somewhat costly
 932 2012-09-23 18:51:34 <amiller> yeah i think that makes plenty of sense
 933 2012-09-23 18:51:37 lggr has joined
 934 2012-09-23 18:51:51 <amiller> how easy can you tolerate making it
 935 2012-09-23 18:52:09 <amiller> like someone with a cell phone probably won't be able to perform the work directly on their phone
 936 2012-09-23 18:52:16 <amiller> some with a gpu miner can generate a vanity address overnight
 937 2012-09-23 18:52:45 <jgarzik> I don't think we've solved the problem yet of:  Crowd pays $Cloud provably.  $Cloud provides decentralized service provably.  $Cloud pays providers provably and fairly.
 938 2012-09-23 18:52:55 <jgarzik> so PoW is a cheap, imperfect substitute
 939 2012-09-23 18:53:27 <amiller> okay so lets say each node-id is associated with a proof-of-work and a difficulty
 940 2012-09-23 18:53:46 <amiller> because the nodeid is a hash, it has zeros in front, and the hash preimage of the nodeid contains the 'bid' for how difficult it's supposed to be
 941 2012-09-23 18:53:56 <amiller> as a heuristic reaction to flooding attempts, you start dropping people with too little work
 942 2012-09-23 18:54:14 <amiller> when the flooding is low, everyone gets through
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 944 2012-09-23 18:54:41 <amiller> if there's a ton of flooding affecting everyone, then packets from nodeids with low work get prioritized very low and sometimes discarded
 945 2012-09-23 18:54:57 <jgarzik> or perhaps more simply... you have limited resource (capacity) of X.  sort by PoW.
 946 2012-09-23 18:54:59 <jgarzik> yep
 947 2012-09-23 18:55:14 <amiller> so if we're under a constant siege of flooding
 948 2012-09-23 18:55:18 <amiller> then everyone has to work harder to get a nodeid
 949 2012-09-23 18:55:22 <jgarzik> yep
 950 2012-09-23 18:55:32 <amiller> it's probably possible for an asshole with a supercomputer to knock all the smartphones off the network
 951 2012-09-23 18:55:38 <jgarzik> yep :(
 952 2012-09-23 18:55:54 <amiller> but he can't hit the laptops or the servers
 953 2012-09-23 18:55:58 <amiller> so there's really no effect
 954 2012-09-23 18:56:04 <jgarzik> though that creates incentive to work a long time, to buy a long-use NODE_ID
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 956 2012-09-23 18:56:09 <amiller> right
 957 2012-09-23 18:56:19 <jgarzik> NODE_ID reuse is not so good for privacy, though
 958 2012-09-23 18:56:28 <amiller> that's the price you pay for anonymity
 959 2012-09-23 18:56:33 <jgarzik> true
 960 2012-09-23 18:56:53 <amiller> if you're anonymous on bitcoin-otc, you don't get the benefit of an establisehd reputaiton
 961 2012-09-23 18:57:08 <amiller> this is the social cost of cheap pseudonyms, it shows up anywhere you might find a sybil attack
 962 2012-09-23 18:58:09 B0g4r7 has joined
 963 2012-09-23 18:59:07 <amiller> so maybe the way to put it is that the asshole with a supercomputer can force people to reuse nodeids to a higher extent than they would otherwise
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 965 2012-09-23 18:59:35 <amiller> if the attacker's goal is to compromise everyone's anonymity by making it expensive to use fresh IDs.... well it's an expensive attack
 966 2012-09-23 18:59:46 usagi has joined
 967 2012-09-23 18:59:58 <jgarzik> yep
 968 2012-09-23 19:00:11 <jgarzik> amiller: this seems like a useful idea to explore :)
 969 2012-09-23 19:01:12 <amiller> how is priority handled in kademlia/pybond.dht
 970 2012-09-23 19:01:16 <jgarzik> amiller: still have the IP-address-level Sybil attacks to worry about.  current bitcoind code, attempting IP address diversity across IP blocks, is useful.
 971 2012-09-23 19:01:18 fiesh_ is now known as fiesh
 972 2012-09-23 19:01:27 <jgarzik> amiller: priority of what?
 973 2012-09-23 19:01:30 <amiller> i dunno
 974 2012-09-23 19:01:32 <amiller> items in cache
 975 2012-09-23 19:01:34 <amiller> how do you decide what to store
 976 2012-09-23 19:01:41 <jgarzik> amiller: currently it is LRU
 977 2012-09-23 19:01:50 <jgarzik> amiller: with a size limit, chosen per node
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 979 2012-09-23 19:02:20 <jgarzik> amiller: could adjust the LRU to consider PoW value, and remove data items first from a lower PoW
 980 2012-09-23 19:03:04 <jgarzik> I admit we are in fresh territory, that I have not thought through ;p
 981 2012-09-23 19:03:12 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
 982 2012-09-23 19:03:14 <amiller> i've found papers on pub/sub in a dht
 983 2012-09-23 19:03:26 <amiller> i wouldn't have thought i'd be able to implement it, but watching you just bang out a kademlia has given me a bit more inspiration
 984 2012-09-23 19:03:42 maaku has joined
 985 2012-09-23 19:04:34 <midnightmagic> sipa: Thanks for the note! I'm running it right now on an EeePC 701-series (the original kind) and it's working very nicely at the moment.
 986 2012-09-23 19:04:43 <jgarzik> amiller: you can move fast, when you don't have to worry about breaking existing users ;p
 987 2012-09-23 19:06:00 <amiller> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/rvr/papers/willow.pdf this is an example of a dht with pubsub, but i don't understand it yet
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 990 2012-09-23 19:06:46 <jgarzik> amiller: will read...
 991 2012-09-23 19:07:37 <jgarzik> amiller: ...but I am suspicious of pub/sub.  All designs seen so far have been vulnerable to amplification attacks, where you trick the network into DDoS'ing third party targets.
 992 2012-09-23 19:07:46 maaku has quit (Client Quit)
 993 2012-09-23 19:07:54 <jgarzik> maybe PoW NODE_ID solves that
 994 2012-09-23 19:08:00 <jgarzik> s/solves/mitigates/
 995 2012-09-23 19:08:39 <amiller> the analog in the ordinary dht is a cache flush attack i think
 996 2012-09-23 19:08:55 <amiller> where you can drive a key range out of everyone's cache
 997 2012-09-23 19:09:00 <jgarzik> yep
 998 2012-09-23 19:09:02 <amiller> by finding the nodes most likely to store it, and filling up their caches
 999 2012-09-23 19:09:12 Joric has quit ()
1000 2012-09-23 19:09:45 <jgarzik> at a minimum, PoW-based NODE_ID + signed messages might be an interesting avenue to explore.
1001 2012-09-23 19:09:57 <jgarzik> Currently Kademlia starts up, and bootstraps by running a query for its own NODE_ID
1002 2012-09-23 19:10:27 <jgarzik> in pybond DHT, we could augment that with a STORE of NODE_ID + public keys
1003 2012-09-23 19:11:20 <jgarzik> then in pub/sub, you'd be able to authenticate membership requests and publish requests to a degree
1004 2012-09-23 19:12:06 <jgarzik> pub/sub also exacerbates another DHT problem, hot spots.  you need special code to proactively avoid hot spots.
1005 2012-09-23 19:13:10 optimator_ has joined
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1008 2012-09-23 19:15:08 <amiller> yeah, if pow node-id works alright for kademlia, then we can worry later about whether or not it also enables a pubsub of some kind
1009 2012-09-23 19:16:06 maaku has joined
1010 2012-09-23 19:17:04 <jgarzik> yep
1011 2012-09-23 19:17:43 <jgarzik> for pybond it starts out with a p2p for broadcasting
1012 2012-09-23 19:17:53 <jgarzik> so that's the natural avenue for pubsub
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1016 2012-09-23 19:21:02 <midnightmagic> why are you using a pow mechanism to build nodeid? Am I correct in thinking that it only prevents a single machine from spamming node-ids, but doesn't stop an actual botnet? or are you making the nodeid pow prohibitively hard?
1017 2012-09-23 19:21:30 <midnightmagic> (and perhaps let it become a commodity)
1018 2012-09-23 19:22:37 <jgarzik> Sadly bonds (and smartcoins of any sort) devolve into using the blockchain as a storage system for property tokens.  It would be nice if there was some way to move that into a temporal alt-chain, and only put a hash in each bitcoin block.  But such a secure non-bitcoin storage system is far afield (maybe gmaxwell has ideas)
1019 2012-09-23 19:23:07 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
1020 2012-09-23 19:23:30 <jgarzik> TD[gone]'s argument is powerful, though:  enabling decentralized financial system is the gain, perhaps the cost is bearable.
1021 2012-09-23 19:23:48 <jgarzik> ability to do atomic payment/property swaps is also powerful
1022 2012-09-23 19:23:53 maaku has joined
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1024 2012-09-23 19:24:43 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: open questions, all
1025 2012-09-23 19:25:20 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: If it were explicit that the tokens were not fungible, it would make pruning a lot simpler.
1026 2012-09-23 19:25:35 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: PoW NODE_ID controls rate of data flow into DHT.  Higher value PoW NODE_ID traffic has priority over lower value PoW NODE_ID
1027 2012-09-23 19:25:38 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Are you talking about *entire* chains which were temporal?
1028 2012-09-23 19:25:49 lggr has joined
1029 2012-09-23 19:25:57 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: so a botnet could spent a lot of time generating a few high-value PoW NODE_ID's, yes
1030 2012-09-23 19:26:07 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: or a botnet could generate many low-value PoW NODE_ID's
1031 2012-09-23 19:26:07 <midnightmagic> rate of data flow/store requests or rate of flow of nodeid participation?
1032 2012-09-23 19:26:29 jurov is now known as away!~jurov@84.245.71.31|jurov
1033 2012-09-23 19:26:39 <jgarzik> rate of data flow/store, and _a bit of_ nodeid participation
1034 2012-09-23 19:26:44 <jgarzik> it doesn't fully address Sybil
1035 2012-09-23 19:27:54 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: you could hire a GPU farm to spend a month working on a super-high-value PoW NODE_ID, and sell it on the market
1036 2012-09-23 19:28:34 <jgarzik> (or botnet, if you're a criminal)
1037 2012-09-23 19:28:36 <midnightmagic> i'm considering the longterm, patient types like btcexpress.  ah interesting if the nodeids are mobile.  I thought it was going to be tied somehow to the origin
1038 2012-09-23 19:28:49 <jgarzik> yes, nodeids are completely mobile
1039 2012-09-23 19:29:25 <jgarzik> including external IP address into hash was considered, and may wind up being required
1040 2012-09-23 19:29:27 <midnightmagic> it makes sense I guess, since how else could they be anything but mobile
1041 2012-09-23 19:29:38 <jgarzik> but detected external IP is difficult, so that was shelved for the moment
1042 2012-09-23 19:29:42 <jgarzik> *detecting
1043 2012-09-23 19:29:49 <jgarzik> yep
1044 2012-09-23 19:29:53 <midnightmagic> plus how could you show that the message wasn't just opaquely proxied
1045 2012-09-23 19:30:00 <jgarzik> nod
1046 2012-09-23 19:30:05 Motest031 has joined
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1048 2012-09-23 19:30:27 <midnightmagic> i like the notion that data store in the dht itself might require pow
1049 2012-09-23 19:30:32 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1050 2012-09-23 19:31:12 <midnightmagic> by the by, did I ever thank you for writing pushpool?  early on it really helped me keep an eye on my miners.
1051 2012-09-23 19:31:18 <midnightmagic> so, thanks!
1052 2012-09-23 19:31:50 <midnightmagic> (also the whole, writing code in a way that's easy for me to modify)
1053 2012-09-23 19:32:15 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: the base idea was that, in times of data flooding, you may use the numeric PoW value (hash -> 256 bit integer a la bitcoin, for example) as a priority value, to choose what data to ignore, keep cached, or replace an existing cached value
1054 2012-09-23 19:32:57 <jgarzik> "capacity" being some limited resource X.  if traffic < X, store all.  if traffic >= X, ignore traffic from lower-priority PoW NODE_ID's
1055 2012-09-23 19:33:10 <midnightmagic> ah neat, because there's no guarantee that the data is successfully stored anyway. i guess based on the p2p nature of it too, each node could estimate its chances of getting a key stored and adjust its pow accordingly.
1056 2012-09-23 19:34:39 <jgarzik> adjust == raise, you would only ever want to seek a higher value PoW NODE_ID, AFAICS
1057 2012-09-23 19:34:47 lggr has joined
1058 2012-09-23 19:34:48 <midnightmagic> so I didn't catch the primary purpose of the dht in bitcoin; is this for node discovery?
1059 2012-09-23 19:35:13 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: this is pybond, not bitcoin.  see financial hashmap stuff in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92421.0
1060 2012-09-23 19:35:13 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Put down the crackpipe. :P
1061 2012-09-23 19:35:45 <midnightmagic> well if traffic spiked for a long time, but then went away (like Art came online and starting futzing with things, as he likes to do occasionally) it would be an empty, expensive network to participate in.
1062 2012-09-23 19:35:53 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: lol
1063 2012-09-23 19:35:55 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you can't use a DHT for node discovery, well you can.. but how will you find the dht nodes? ... use another DHT for DHT node discovery? :)
1064 2012-09-23 19:36:17 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: :) i thought that might get a comment out of you. lol
1065 2012-09-23 19:36:17 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: currently pybond just as a stupid, standard Kademlia network, https://github.com/jgarzik/pybond/blob/master/dht.py
1066 2012-09-23 19:36:23 <jgarzik> *has
1067 2012-09-23 19:36:40 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: ah!  cool.
1068 2012-09-23 19:36:52 toffoo has quit ()
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1070 2012-09-23 19:37:36 * midnightmagic sets up a mirror
1071 2012-09-23 19:37:44 CluckCreek has joined
1072 2012-09-23 19:38:28 <midnightmagic> whoah! bond markets!
1073 2012-09-23 19:38:36 CluckCreek has left ()
1074 2012-09-23 19:38:53 jurov is now known as jurov|away
1075 2012-09-23 19:39:22 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: even more than that...  smartcoin markets
1076 2012-09-23 19:39:36 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: holding a coin may represent... ownership of a house or car
1077 2012-09-23 19:39:45 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: with contracts?  i wonder if that could be used to assist the WoT v2 project
1078 2012-09-23 19:40:30 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: I'm just doing the base level bond stuff.  issue a bond, people buy bonds, you make payments.
1079 2012-09-23 19:40:42 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: contract text can be one part of the hashed bond descriptor, sure
1080 2012-09-23 19:41:17 * midnightmagic 's mind fills up and stalls
1081 2012-09-23 19:41:32 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1082 2012-09-23 19:41:54 <jgarzik> amiller: well, with those two fixes, pynode at least is shitting itself in familiar ways, when it hits a reorg
1083 2012-09-23 19:42:12 <jgarzik> amiller: I think we're close to merging
1084 2012-09-23 19:44:47 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Do you need alpha testers?
1085 2012-09-23 19:46:05 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: not really, though you are welcome to play
1086 2012-09-23 19:46:32 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Is there a generic common network somewhere I can join up with yet?
1087 2012-09-23 19:46:40 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: not yet
1088 2012-09-23 19:46:44 <midnightmagic> k
1089 2012-09-23 19:47:00 lggr has joined
1090 2012-09-23 19:47:48 <sipa> midnightmagic: ah, good to hear it's working nicely
1091 2012-09-23 19:48:13 <midnightmagic> sipa: the speed with which it rebuilds a fresh block set is..  so, so nice.
1092 2012-09-23 19:48:38 <sipa> "rebuilds" ?
1093 2012-09-23 19:49:25 <midnightmagic> sipa: yeah, start from zero, -connect=local.ip, catch up to 200k+ blocks
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1102 2012-09-23 20:03:22 * Greee New Mining Pool Server ( GBT Protocol , ASIC Support ) no fees , pm for details.
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1114 2012-09-23 20:21:48 <jgarzik> quite a few orphans, here
1115 2012-09-23 20:21:51 <jgarzik> 09/23/12 20:14:26 stored orphan tx 2b9f38d527 (mapsz 2945)
1116 2012-09-23 20:22:44 <amiller> jeez i finally got blk0001.dat by doing http from an amazon ec2, and scp back to myself
1117 2012-09-23 20:22:52 <amiller> every time i'd dl directly i'd get corruption
1118 2012-09-23 20:22:57 lggr has joined
1119 2012-09-23 20:23:10 <gmaxwell> amiller: 0_o
1120 2012-09-23 20:23:11 <jgarzik> weird
1121 2012-09-23 20:23:12 BCBot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1123 2012-09-23 20:23:23 <amiller> maybe my isp is tampering my http
1124 2012-09-23 20:23:25 <amiller> i duno
1125 2012-09-23 20:23:43 <gmaxwell> amiller: it happens.. can you cmp the files?
1126 2012-09-23 20:23:51 <gmaxwell> It would be really good to know if that was going on.
1127 2012-09-23 20:24:08 <amiller> i sha256sum them
1128 2012-09-23 20:24:19 <amiller> i guess i could diff them
1129 2012-09-23 20:25:06 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1130 2012-09-23 20:25:14 <jgarzik> amiller: you've been branded by your ISP as an evil P2P'er ;p
1131 2012-09-23 20:25:36 <gmaxwell> amiller: I didn't say "cmp" because I was too lazy to type compare. :P
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1135 2012-09-23 20:39:01 <amiller> i did run a tor exit for a while, long enough to get ip/banned by 4chan
1136 2012-09-23 20:40:14 <jgarzik> amiller: any visits from the FBI or NSL letters?  ;p
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1139 2012-09-23 20:43:09 <amiller> apparently if i got a NSL i wouldn't even be allowed to answer that question, but no
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1143 2012-09-23 20:49:47 <eian> gmaxwell: what are the ways two people can create a single transaction?
1144 2012-09-23 20:50:11 <eian> using the old signature types, I mean
1145 2012-09-23 20:51:12 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1147 2012-09-23 20:52:25 <gmaxwell> eian: I thought I wrote up a demonstration of this but I can't find it...
1148 2012-09-23 20:53:00 * sipa has his GPG key signed by RMS
1149 2012-09-23 20:53:11 <gmaxwell> eian: they just pick which inputs they want to spend, e.g. one from each person.. then one of them uses createrawtransaction to draft a txn spending both of them to the agreed outputs, signs it, sends it to the other person.. they sign.. then its valid.
1150 2012-09-23 20:53:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: 0_o
1151 2012-09-23 20:53:54 <jgarzik> eian: this provides a concrete example of two parties building a single transaction: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112007.msg1212356#msg1212356
1152 2012-09-23 20:54:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: I have signatures from two other FSF board members, never thought to ask RMS.
1153 2012-09-23 20:54:39 pusle has quit ()
1154 2012-09-23 20:54:43 <jgarzik> I am glad RMS exists, and fights the fight he fights, but he is personally a bit difficult IMO
1155 2012-09-23 20:55:07 <eian> thanks
1156 2012-09-23 20:55:21 <jgarzik> sipa: speaking of...  we need to do a keysigning
1157 2012-09-23 20:55:46 <jgarzik> unfortunately I have to go jump on a bicycle right this second
1158 2012-09-23 20:55:50 <jgarzik> *poof*
1159 2012-09-23 20:56:06 <sipa> cya
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1175 2012-09-23 21:12:58 <eian> did the createrawtransaction function exist before version 0.7?
1176 2012-09-23 21:13:47 <gmaxwell> eian: 0.7 is the first released version of it— of course it's always been possible to do this.. just not easily exposed.
1177 2012-09-23 21:14:17 <gmaxwell> e.g. absent 0.7 you could use a web transaction creator like joric's  or random custom software..
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1184 2012-09-23 21:26:39 <sipa> midnightmagic: how long does that take you?
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1201 2012-09-23 21:58:22 <amiller> https://gist.github.com/3516775736e2b9befd9c this is my result from diffing the two corrupted files i downloaded
1202 2012-09-23 21:58:27 <amiller> only one or two segments were corrupted
1203 2012-09-23 21:58:33 <amiller> different ones in each
1204 2012-09-23 21:59:09 <amiller> which means that after i downloaded two corrupt versions, i could have just identified the segments that differed and tried the 8 or so ways of merging them
1205 2012-09-23 21:59:12 * Luke-Jr has a bunch of those kind of things - would be nice if there was a tool to look at 3-N files and decide what the consensus for each block was <.<
1206 2012-09-23 21:59:27 <Luke-Jr> or with smart validity checking, sure
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1222 2012-09-23 22:33:13 <eian> what is actually being signed in a tx input script?
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1225 2012-09-23 22:34:14 <sipa> ,the transaction, with the signature itself erased, and some other processing
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1227 2012-09-23 22:34:43 <sipa> i believe tx input references are replaced by the output referenced
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1255 2012-09-23 23:13:26 <amiller> hrm
1256 2012-09-23 23:14:30 <amiller> jgarzik, what would be the easiest way to make pynode function somewhat like an spv client
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1258 2012-09-23 23:15:03 <amiller> what i'd want it to do is skip signature validation, but validate all the work, and gradually fill in the data for the blocks and txes
1259 2012-09-23 23:15:42 <amiller> how do i skip the IBD and just ask for blocks
1260 2012-09-23 23:15:42 <jgarzik> amiller: one easy thing to do is add checkpoints.  don't check scripts < block height X
1261 2012-09-23 23:17:05 <amiller> oh
1262 2012-09-23 23:17:09 <amiller> how do i feed pynode a checkpoint
1263 2012-09-23 23:17:23 <jgarzik> amiller: script verification is accomplished when ChainDb.connect_block calls self.tx_signed
1264 2012-09-23 23:17:31 <amiller> i can just tell it to use the latest block from my normal bitcoind
1265 2012-09-23 23:17:36 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1266 2012-09-23 23:17:39 <amiller> actually for that matter
1267 2012-09-23 23:17:42 <amiller> how do i tell bitcoind to do that too
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1269 2012-09-23 23:18:12 <jgarzik> amiller: copy the list from bitcoind at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/checkpoints.cpp#L24
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1271 2012-09-23 23:18:27 <jgarzik> amiller: bitcoind should already do that
1272 2012-09-23 23:19:55 <amiller> no i don't mean developer checkpoints
1273 2012-09-23 23:20:03 <amiller> i mean i alreayd have a bitcoind up to date on my laptop
1274 2012-09-23 23:20:10 <amiller> and i want to spawn a new bitcoind somewhere else on a server
1275 2012-09-23 23:20:16 <amiller> i don't want to revalidate all the txes on the new machine
1276 2012-09-23 23:20:22 <amiller> but i don't want to personally transfer everything to it
1277 2012-09-23 23:20:33 <amiller> so i just want to tell it about my personal current head block
1278 2012-09-23 23:20:47 <amiller> basically i just want to provide my own checkpoint
1279 2012-09-23 23:20:55 <amiller> bitcoind -checkpoint=<blockhash>
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1281 2012-09-23 23:21:48 <gmaxwell> amiller: that just isn't how it works.
1282 2012-09-23 23:22:15 <jgarzik> amiller: The best you can do is copy blk*.dat from bitcoind A to bitcoind B
1283 2012-09-23 23:22:19 <gmaxwell> amiller: how can you tell that a _subsequent_ block is valid without the set of unspent outputs that you didn't build.
1284 2012-09-23 23:22:31 <amiller> i still need to build the indexes
1285 2012-09-23 23:22:33 <amiller> and download all the data
1286 2012-09-23 23:22:35 <amiller> i just skip tx validation
1287 2012-09-23 23:22:43 <amiller> and i potentially download the data in a better order
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1289 2012-09-23 23:23:03 <gmaxwell> amiller: the validation isn't a big deal though. It's something like 15 minutes of cpu time for a full chain.
1290 2012-09-23 23:23:19 <amiller> oh
1291 2012-09-23 23:23:31 <amiller> it seems much slower on pynode
1292 2012-09-23 23:23:37 <gmaxwell> when we talk about validation taking all the work its really the index manipulation.
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1294 2012-09-23 23:24:36 <gmaxwell> I like python, but sometimes I wish it (and JS and ruby and PHP) were outlawed because they screw up people's reasoning about computational complexity.
1295 2012-09-23 23:25:10 <amiller> that's rubbish
1296 2012-09-23 23:25:43 <amiller> bitcoind is taking much much longer than 15 minutes to validate a whole chain, so maybe i'm doing something horribly wrong
1297 2012-09-23 23:26:00 <sipa> the actual sig checking for tge entire chain including before the checkpoints, takes 1h cpu time on my laptop, when multithreaded
1298 2012-09-23 23:26:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: ah, I was only thinking higher than the highest current checkpoint.
1299 2012-09-23 23:26:24 <sipa> eh, 1h wall clock time, not cpu time
1300 2012-09-23 23:27:14 <gmaxwell> amiller: most of the time stock bitcoind spend validating the chain is thrashing the databases.
1301 2012-09-23 23:27:18 <sipa> and amiller: you can't measure the checking time without the indexing
1302 2012-09-23 23:27:42 <amiller> i don't understand what the checkpoint saves you, you still have to do an indexing run from the beginning?
1303 2012-09-23 23:27:48 <amiller> or is the checkpoint somehow a hash of an index structure?
1304 2012-09-23 23:28:13 <sipa> it's just a block hash
1305 2012-09-23 23:28:19 <jgarzik> amiller: checkpoint says "you may skip certain checks, if height < X"
1306 2012-09-23 23:28:26 <jgarzik> script verification is one of those
1307 2012-09-23 23:28:30 <gmaxwell> amiller: it just turns of ECDSA before the top checkpoint; saves some cpu. (which matters more perhaps because ECDSA and IO are not overlapped)
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1309 2012-09-23 23:28:45 <amiller> ecdsa and script verification then.
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1312 2012-09-23 23:29:45 <jgarzik> amiller: for pynode, checkpoints will have an enormous impact
1313 2012-09-23 23:29:50 <amiller> so, what i would like to do is to be able to do bitcoind -checkpoint=<blockhash> and skip all those checks as a first pass
1314 2012-09-23 23:29:56 <amiller> or checkpoint=<blockhash> in config.cfg for pynode
1315 2012-09-23 23:30:06 <gmaxwell> I suspect we wouldn't have bothered with that optimization it bitcoind if we had a better handle on what was causing the slowness when it was done.
1316 2012-09-23 23:30:11 <jgarzik> amiller: need hash + height
1317 2012-09-23 23:30:20 <amiller> the height's included in the block header isn't it?
1318 2012-09-23 23:30:25 <jgarzik> no
1319 2012-09-23 23:30:35 <amiller> lol. great
1320 2012-09-23 23:30:39 <amiller> so actually (hash,height) is the digest of a block
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1322 2012-09-23 23:30:48 <gmaxwell> amiller: it wouldn't buy you anything useful for your case.
1323 2012-09-23 23:31:20 <gmaxwell> amiller: whats your current height on the node you're saying is slow?
1324 2012-09-23 23:31:47 <amiller> well pynode is taking its sweet time around 178692
1325 2012-09-23 23:31:58 <amiller> ;;bc,blocks
1326 2012-09-23 23:31:59 <gribble> 200229
1327 2012-09-23 23:31:59 <sipa> amiller: also, are you running ultraprune?
1328 2012-09-23 23:32:05 <gmaxwell> oh well, I dunno what pynode does. thats another matter.
1329 2012-09-23 23:32:06 <amiller> sipa, no i'm not running ultraprune for my bitcoin client
1330 2012-09-23 23:32:47 <amiller> gmaxwell, on my server i'm stuck at 185025 and chugging along
1331 2012-09-23 23:32:47 <sipa> if not, you're really just benchmarking bdb's filesystem syncs...
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1333 2012-09-23 23:33:02 <gmaxwell> Again, this is what I was saying about python screwing up reasoning about this stuff.  To get script validation (vs ecdsa) to show up in a profile run on bitcoind, even with checkpoints disabled, you have to set the profiler to show things with <1% usage.
1334 2012-09-23 23:33:19 <gmaxwell> amiller: stuck? thats that because the fetching logic is stupid.
1335 2012-09-23 23:33:42 <gmaxwell> amiller: is it really not moving at all?
1336 2012-09-23 23:34:01 <amiller> no it's not stuck i didn't mean to use that word
1337 2012-09-23 23:34:08 <amiller> it's not moving very fast though
1338 2012-09-23 23:34:25 <amiller> i have no idea how it's spending its time though, i've only profiled the pynode part
1339 2012-09-23 23:34:31 <gmaxwell> in any case, the highest checkpoint is currently at 193000.
1340 2012-09-23 23:34:52 <amiller> so if i'm running with default settings i'm not even doing signature checks below 193000
1341 2012-09-23 23:34:56 <amiller> and all this time is spent indexing
1342 2012-09-23 23:35:00 <amiller> but i'm not using ultraprune
1343 2012-09-23 23:35:41 <gmaxwell> Right.
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1345 2012-09-23 23:36:13 <amiller> so i'd like to be able to set a checkpoint through an option rather than in the code if it doesn't make too much of a difference
1346 2012-09-23 23:37:01 <amiller> but it doesn't make much of a difference so maybe just retract where i suggested it as a bitcoind thing
1347 2012-09-23 23:37:09 <sipa> amiller: in ultraprune, i can do over 3 blocks/s in the final part of the chain, including script and ecdsa
1348 2012-09-23 23:37:30 <sipa> single threaded
1349 2012-09-23 23:37:32 <amiller> sipa, how fast without script/ecdsa?
1350 2012-09-23 23:37:57 <sipa> i suppose a multiple of that
1351 2012-09-23 23:38:05 <sipa> maybe 10/s
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1353 2012-09-23 23:38:57 <sipa> with parallel sig checking, close to 7/s
1354 2012-09-23 23:39:13 <jgarzik> amiller: for testing purposes, just comment out tx_signed
1355 2012-09-23 23:39:50 <sipa> but these are numbers from my memory, probably not from identical parts in the chain
1356 2012-09-23 23:40:02 <[\\\]> just a suggestion.. on bitcoin.org, instead of "#bitcoin-mining (GPU mining related)", use "#bitcoin-mining (Bitcoin mining related)"
1357 2012-09-23 23:41:26 <gmaxwell> [\\\]: submit pull request? :P
1358 2012-09-23 23:41:45 <gmaxwell> (not that it's really required; but its useful if more people are comfortable doing them)
1359 2012-09-23 23:42:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1360 2012-09-23 23:43:02 <[\\\]> Gmaxwell, it'd take me more time to submit the request than it would for somone to just make the change the next time they're doing other stuff.  Its technically not wrong asis, just less relevant. :D
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1363 2012-09-23 23:49:07 <amiller> jgarzik, this is the profile chart of running pynode without tx_signed http://i.imgur.com/HzH0u.png
1364 2012-09-23 23:49:56 <amiller> i wonder why i'm doing calc_merkle in this stage
1365 2012-09-23 23:50:58 <eian> amiller, what generated that profile chart?
1366 2012-09-23 23:51:09 <eian> what tool I mean
1367 2012-09-23 23:51:11 <amiller> i use ipython's profiling tool
1368 2012-09-23 23:51:33 <eian> that's awesome - I wonder if there is something like that for C++
1369 2012-09-23 23:53:13 <amiller> there is, gprof
1370 2012-09-23 23:53:38 <eian> I've used it but only via command line
1371 2012-09-23 23:53:43 <eian> Does it generate graphs like this?
1372 2012-09-23 23:53:58 <amiller> oh, yeah i'm using a tool called gprof2dot to convert the gprof style output to a pretty graph
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1374 2012-09-23 23:55:13 <gmaxwell> eian: kcachegrind can generate plots like that from valgrind callgrind output.
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1377 2012-09-23 23:56:03 <amiller> so what i want to be able to do is to keep a special table of valid blocks
1378 2012-09-23 23:56:04 <gmaxwell> And can give charts like http://people.xiph.org/~greg/ultraprune_profile2.png  (from an old ultraprune build)
1379 2012-09-23 23:56:06 <amiller> if a block is valid, it's always valid
1380 2012-09-23 23:56:10 <amiller> and all the txes in it are valid
1381 2012-09-23 23:57:03 <sipa> amiller: ultraprune keeps a flag in the block database about how well it was validated
1382 2012-09-23 23:57:10 <sipa> in several stages
1383 2012-09-23 23:57:27 <sipa> so ot never needs to redo a certain check
1384 2012-09-23 23:58:00 <sipa> signature/script checking being the last stage
1385 2012-09-23 23:58:29 <eian> gmaxwell, I've apparently been doing profiling like a cave man - that graphic is amazing
1386 2012-09-23 23:58:56 <gmaxwell> eian: it's interactive in kcachegrind to..
1387 2012-09-23 23:59:05 <amiller> that's awesome, ultraprofiled
1388 2012-09-23 23:59:13 <gmaxwell> you can click to explode out any part (that graph is generated with the detail cranked up)
1389 2012-09-23 23:59:30 <amiller> sipa okay i think i get it, maybe i should port ultraprune to pynode
1390 2012-09-23 23:59:30 <gmaxwell> and you can flip between parent relative and absolute percentages.