1 2012-09-24 00:00:54 <amiller> what's the best writeup of ultraprune's data structures?
   2 2012-09-24 00:01:10 <amiller> jgarzik also has his own db format
   3 2012-09-24 00:01:24 <amiller> not db format but i mean, data organization on top of a db
   4 2012-09-24 00:02:04 <amiller> actually i think you explained the whole thing to me once already
   5 2012-09-24 00:02:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
   6 2012-09-24 00:02:47 <jgarzik> amiller: Just implemented pynode checkpoints, including skipping script verf if < height 193000.
   7 2012-09-24 00:05:36 <sipa> amiller: i'm actually writing a document about the serialization and data structures, but it's not finished or online
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  10 2012-09-24 00:07:03 <jgarzik> amiller: with this checkpointing code, we can now have a true comparison between gdbm and leveldb (if that's not already good for a laugh)
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  12 2012-09-24 00:07:32 <sipa> basically it's a txid -> [pruned txouts] map on the one hand, and a blkid -> diskpos map otherwise
  13 2012-09-24 00:07:53 <sipa> with some metadata
  14 2012-09-24 00:07:55 <amiller> are the blocks stored to promote seeking in some way
  15 2012-09-24 00:08:00 <amiller> i guess there's stored in order
  16 2012-09-24 00:08:08 <amiller> and when processing a backlog of transactions you
  17 2012-09-24 00:08:12 <amiller> nevermind they're probably mostly random seeks?
  18 2012-09-24 00:08:34 <jgarzik> amiller: stored in time order.  retrieval is random... but less likely to go far in the past.
  19 2012-09-24 00:08:42 <sipa> you don't need the blocks for validation when you have txouts
  20 2012-09-24 00:09:01 <sipa> that's what makes ultraprune fast
  21 2012-09-24 00:09:14 <amiller> i thought you were hitting the blocks in ultraprune for some reason still
  22 2012-09-24 00:09:25 <amiller> oh no nvm i remember what i was confused about, it's the txid
  23 2012-09-24 00:09:28 <amiller> hrm
  24 2012-09-24 00:09:30 <sipa> reorgs, rescans and serving
  25 2012-09-24 00:10:00 <sipa> but not validation
  26 2012-09-24 00:10:06 <amiller> got it
  27 2012-09-24 00:10:23 * sipa bedtime
  28 2012-09-24 00:10:29 <jgarzik> sipa: we should have a NODE_VALIDATION nServices bit.  Set it now, in bitcoind
  29 2012-09-24 00:10:38 <jgarzik> sipa: then remove NODE_NETWORK, if not archive node
  30 2012-09-24 00:11:04 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. <nickname> tell RainbowDashh fix your quit message. And by "fix", I mean pick one that isn't incredibly annoying)
  31 2012-09-24 00:11:41 <sipa> jgarzik: something like that, indeed
  32 2012-09-24 00:11:56 dvide has quit ()
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  34 2012-09-24 00:14:13 <gmaxwell> define a NODE_VALIDATION as being able and willing to forward txn and blocks, do full validation, offer full headers,  and be able to serve at least the last N days of blocks? (better to specify the latter with time instead of height; so a node knows who it needs to talk)
  35 2012-09-24 00:14:17 <gmaxwell> oh.. hm.
  36 2012-09-24 00:14:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: an ultraprune node without the blocks can't act as a server for SPV nodes, can it?
  37 2012-09-24 00:14:51 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  38 2012-09-24 00:15:30 <gmaxwell> (it can't generate tree fragments showing even an unspent tx was ever mined)
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  41 2012-09-24 00:16:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: issues like that are why we should avoid pruning blocks in the ref client, for a long time to come
  42 2012-09-24 00:17:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed, you need an archive node for that
  43 2012-09-24 00:18:10 optimator has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  44 2012-09-24 00:18:12 <sipa> jgarzik: i disagree, we don't need 10000 nodes serving blocks
  45 2012-09-24 00:18:37 <amiller> do any rpc nodes currently answer questions of the form "what's the merkle branch and header chain showing that <txid> was mined, before block <blkhash>"
  46 2012-09-24 00:18:56 <jgarzik> sipa: I rather like that we do, and think bitcoin is stronger for it ;p
  47 2012-09-24 00:19:30 <jgarzik> amiller: not AFAIK
  48 2012-09-24 00:20:15 <sipa> jgarzik: i think we are losing tons of full nodes in favor of non-nodes like electrum because of insisting that every node can provide syncup for every newcomer
  49 2012-09-24 00:20:19 <maaku> block chain data is self-validating, there's no technical reason to have a few geographically distributed archive nodes
  50 2012-09-24 00:20:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: meh, it doesn't need a full archival though, it needs an archive of the hash trees.
  51 2012-09-24 00:20:42 <maaku> …not to have...
  52 2012-09-24 00:21:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: a full list of txid's
  53 2012-09-24 00:21:37 <gmaxwell> maaku: it's very important that you be able to _get_ the data, since it's not self validating if you can't get it. Having lots of copies held by involantary altruists keeps the cost of access low.
  54 2012-09-24 00:21:46 <jgarzik> you might as well have the full txid list, and can still generate merkle branches on demand
  55 2012-09-24 00:21:59 <amiller> there's no reason for each individual to need to store the whole thing, you can shard the effort
  56 2012-09-24 00:22:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  57 2012-09-24 00:22:17 <jgarzik> amiller: theory != practice, there
  58 2012-09-24 00:22:51 <amiller> so right now we have many people with no blockchain contribution, and some people with full blockchain contribution
  59 2012-09-24 00:22:57 <jgarzik> amiller: difficult to find the right incentives for a distributed network to do that in a reliable and trustworthy manner
  60 2012-09-24 00:23:12 <maaku> look at freenet
  61 2012-09-24 00:23:15 <gmaxwell> amiller: I dunno about how many of the 'many' are likely to ever have any.
  62 2012-09-24 00:23:16 <sipa> and efficient...
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  65 2012-09-24 00:25:02 <jgarzik> sipa: anyway, I agree to the point about losing full nodes in favor of non-nodes...  but it is also true that the total network count of full nodes will take an enormous nosedive, once a future bitcoin release prunes old blocks by default.
  66 2012-09-24 00:25:06 optimator_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  67 2012-09-24 00:25:09 <jgarzik> a red flag day
  68 2012-09-24 00:25:35 <jgarzik> shift from involuntary altruists -> voluntary, prepared altruists with now the weight of bitcoin on their shoulders
  69 2012-09-24 00:26:26 <Luke-Jr> ?
  70 2012-09-24 00:26:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: the only people remaining on the network are those who intentionally elect to be full nodes... which would no longer be default
  71 2012-09-24 00:26:57 <sipa> jgarzik: no need to prune by default :)
  72 2012-09-24 00:26:59 <amiller> http://i.imgur.com/VVfvW.png
  73 2012-09-24 00:27:08 <jgarzik> anyway, baby bedtime, bbiab
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  75 2012-09-24 00:28:42 <gmaxwell> amiller: I'm concerned that elements of our model that work for rational actors may not work too well for real people, because real people aren't quite rational enough to weigh the value of running a network node over just using a thin client. So I think that one ways we can help keeping things functional is by using the power of defaults to encourage involuntary altruism. E.g. run full/archival nodes by default when the system can support it
  76 2012-09-24 00:29:13 <gmaxwell> Of course, that means we have to get the burden from those features low enough that it doesn't mess with the user's selfish motivations and cause them to go the thinclient route.
  77 2012-09-24 00:30:03 <amiller> i agree with that as a pragmatic decision, it just deserves to be highlighted since it leads to a false dichotomy
  78 2012-09-24 00:30:07 <gmaxwell> so e.g. a new node should bootstrap as a SPV node, and become a full / archival / etc node in the background.  By default.. perhaps checking what sort of system it's on. (if it'll run out of space, don't bother)
  79 2012-09-24 00:30:38 <amiller> the false dichotomy is about being in between a full node and an spv node
  80 2012-09-24 00:30:55 <gmaxwell> well, that was the original design; we've since had a lot of powerful ideas.
  81 2012-09-24 00:31:06 <amiller> not even all of them require the full merkle thing either
  82 2012-09-24 00:31:23 <amiller> this is just about having a way to bootstrap a node by providing it a checkpoint from an _already validated_ blockchain
  83 2012-09-24 00:31:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  84 2012-09-24 00:31:38 <gmaxwell> amiller: just be careful that you don't assume a bunch of essential location finding stuff that _no one knows how to make attack resistant_.
  85 2012-09-24 00:32:04 <amiller> i'm not, i assume that the service providers are going to be centralized and shared
  86 2012-09-24 00:32:11 <amiller> like why don't we have a ton of blk0001.dat on s3
  87 2012-09-24 00:32:17 <gmaxwell> amiller: what you're asking for there is simply incompatible with the current architecture of the software.
  88 2012-09-24 00:32:37 <amiller> gmaxwell, it's incompatible with the current architecture of the satoshi client
  89 2012-09-24 00:32:43 <gmaxwell> Yes.
  90 2012-09-24 00:32:50 <gmaxwell> thats all.
  91 2012-09-24 00:32:51 <amiller> but 'software' all around includes electrum non-nodes and full-nodes satoshi
  92 2012-09-24 00:33:06 <amiller> there's a useful middle ground which is a validating node but yet does not have the whole burden of being a full node
  93 2012-09-24 00:33:09 <gmaxwell> yes, so what?
  94 2012-09-24 00:33:56 <gmaxwell> You asked for a feature in bitcoind that we can't (usefully) provide until many things are redesigned. There isn't any protocol impact in being able to feed a checkpoint into some other piece of software; if you want that— add it.
  95 2012-09-24 00:35:05 <gmaxwell> Though I do generally not like user specified checkpoins, — they lower the activation energy for conclusion to defeat the distributed algorithim if misused.
  96 2012-09-24 00:35:13 <gmaxwell> s/checkpoints/
  97 2012-09-24 00:35:27 <amiller> now that's a very interesting thing to point out
  98 2012-09-24 00:36:19 <amiller> there's a very good reason to want a user specified checkpoint, it's useful for cloning a workspace somewhere without having to actually sign/transfer a huge thing from my laptop
  99 2012-09-24 00:36:26 <amiller> it's also useful for restoring a node from a tiny backup
 100 2012-09-24 00:36:27 lggr has joined
 101 2012-09-24 00:36:43 <amiller> presumably i can keep valid blockchain headers in my wallet and take them with me on a usb stick
 102 2012-09-24 00:36:43 <gmaxwell> amiller: what kind of node though?
 103 2012-09-24 00:36:54 <amiller> lets say a validating and mining node
 104 2012-09-24 00:37:03 <gmaxwell> (e.g. doing a headers chain validity decision is trival)
 105 2012-09-24 00:37:11 <gmaxwell> well that node needs the utxo set.
 106 2012-09-24 00:37:16 <amiller> yeah
 107 2012-09-24 00:37:23 <amiller> but it can get the utxo set without having to do script processing etc
 108 2012-09-24 00:37:23 <gmaxwell> And right now we have no protocol way to get one.
 109 2012-09-24 00:37:45 <amiller> it never at any point needs to have the entire blockchain stored anywhere
 110 2012-09-24 00:38:34 <amiller> so what i'm saying is bitcoind -checkpoint=<blkhash> would download all the headers, and it would download the blocks, and it would build a utxo set from scratch
 111 2012-09-24 00:38:42 <gmaxwell> amiller: go look at my ultraprune profile. Other than the ecdsa the script processing is... meh.  And you could just SPV bootstrap away the ecdsa part. I suppose.
 112 2012-09-24 00:38:59 <amiller> for that matter you should be able to checkpoint your utxo set
 113 2012-09-24 00:39:09 <amiller> that would be a somewhat intensive operation since you'd need to preordertraversal or w/e the whole thing
 114 2012-09-24 00:39:47 <gmaxwell> yea, I think checkpointing the utxo set is useful.
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 117 2012-09-24 00:41:18 <amiller> you raise a great point though which is that none of these are safe to put in the default client for a peculiar reason
 118 2012-09-24 00:41:22 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 119 2012-09-24 00:41:30 <amiller> since the temptation to just borrow someone else's checkpoints rather than validating it yourself is pretty large
 120 2012-09-24 00:41:40 <gmaxwell> Yup!
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 123 2012-09-24 00:42:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: before the checkpoint we don't do any script validation at all
 124 2012-09-24 00:43:05 <sipa> worse, you can't validate scripts without sig checking in a general way
 125 2012-09-24 00:43:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 126 2012-09-24 00:43:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: sure you can— make checksig always return true.
 127 2012-09-24 00:43:46 <sipa> will work in practice now
 128 2012-09-24 00:43:59 <sipa> but i can kill your node imnediately
 129 2012-09-24 00:44:22 <sipa> just have a script that does opchecksig opnot
 130 2012-09-24 00:44:44 <gmaxwell> AHAHAHAHA
 131 2012-09-24 00:44:48 <sipa> and has an invalid signature
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 133 2012-09-24 00:45:13 <gmaxwell> Oh thats clever.  Ought to get one of those mined in testnet.
 134 2012-09-24 00:45:21 <sipa> yup
 135 2012-09-24 00:46:00 <sipa> on mainnet right now, making checksig return true works fine
 136 2012-09-24 00:46:03 <gmaxwell> well darn thats really annoying the reason I want to only skip ecdsa is because the risk of someone tricking you with an invalid block is meh, but the risk of someone redirecting coins is more interesting.
 137 2012-09-24 00:48:07 lggr has joined
 138 2012-09-24 00:48:07 <gmaxwell> actually, I'm being really daft lately; that doesnt matter in any case, if the script is malleable it doesn't matter if its checked because it could be changed, and because the sig and script are under the same hash in the chain you can't just leave one malleable.
 139 2012-09-24 00:52:32 RainbowDashh has joined
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 141 2012-09-24 00:55:23 <maaku> jgarzik: dynode is awesome btw, thanks for your work on it
 142 2012-09-24 00:55:58 * gmaxwell figures out maaku's nationality from the qwerty improbable typo.
 143 2012-09-24 00:56:03 <jgarzik> awesomely incomplete, but thanks ;p
 144 2012-09-24 00:56:06 <amiller> i dunno i'm suddenly reminded of roconnor's fears about an incomplete node implementation
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 146 2012-09-24 00:56:26 <amiller> if it makes it easy for people to load backups and bootstrap from specified checkpoints, it might be too powerful
 147 2012-09-24 00:56:38 <maaku> haha OS X Lion's dumb autocorrection...
 148 2012-09-24 00:56:46 * jgarzik pokes amiller about pynode's NodeServer()...  did you ever test pybond's NodeServer() at all?  would it work just to port that code over from your pybond conversion?  
 149 2012-09-24 00:57:04 <jgarzik> amiller: meaning your pybond gevent branch
 150 2012-09-24 00:57:54 <amiller> jgarzik, yes
 151 2012-09-24 00:58:11 <amiller> the node servers worked fine, i tested it by launching two processes, one with example1.cfg and the other with example2.cfg
 152 2012-09-24 00:58:18 <amiller> i did all four combinations too
 153 2012-09-24 00:58:25 <amiller> using the gevent version and the original version
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 156 2012-09-24 00:59:58 <amiller> jgarzik, i'm looking forward to playing with your checkpoint feature, so please push it (but maybe mark it as "potentially dangerous")
 157 2012-09-24 01:00:15 <amiller> er i guess if you just included the built in checkpoints
 158 2012-09-24 01:00:28 <jgarzik> amiller: as it mirrors the deployed bitcoind, I do not see added danger
 159 2012-09-24 01:00:29 <amiller> then it will be me that is tempted with implementing the dangerous feature
 160 2012-09-24 01:00:32 <amiller> ah.
 161 2012-09-24 01:06:24 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 163 2012-09-24 01:08:37 <jgarzik> amiller: pushed to pynode.git HEAD
 164 2012-09-24 01:11:07 <jgarzik> amiller: with signature checking out of the way, gdbm is definitely the next big bottleneck.  after I finish the first import w/ the checkpoints change, I'll try again with your leveldb branch for comparison
 165 2012-09-24 01:11:51 <amiller> gdbm made my entire computer lock up
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 167 2012-09-24 01:12:21 <amiller> i'm concerned that there are transaction problems with leveldb
 168 2012-09-24 01:12:26 <amiller> or my use of it
 169 2012-09-24 01:12:32 <amiller> like you said it's already probalby not transaction safe
 170 2012-09-24 01:12:38 <amiller> maybe i just hit ctrl-c too often
 171 2012-09-24 01:13:00 <jgarzik> amiller: trapping of SIGINT actually hurts... Ctrl-C stalls forever due to that
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 173 2012-09-24 01:13:41 <amiller> jgarzik, my point is that i've been interrupting my program and i occasionally get a leveldb exception
 174 2012-09-24 01:13:47 <jgarzik> ah
 175 2012-09-24 01:13:49 <amiller> where it can't read one of its journals its expecting
 176 2012-09-24 01:13:49 lggr has joined
 177 2012-09-24 01:13:56 <jgarzik> amiller: could switch to BDB ;-)
 178 2012-09-24 01:13:58 <amiller> i can 'repairdb' but that doesn't help because pynode isn't expecting the partially committed something or other
 179 2012-09-24 01:14:09 <amiller> jgarzik, as far as the dbm's go, tokyo cabinet is the most popular and recent
 180 2012-09-24 01:14:17 <amiller> i bet that would go as fast as leveldb for this
 181 2012-09-24 01:14:21 <jgarzik> amiller: s/tokyo/kyoto/
 182 2012-09-24 01:14:29 <amiller> jgarzik, yes
 183 2012-09-24 01:14:30 <jgarzik> amiller: tokyo < kyoto
 184 2012-09-24 01:14:38 <amiller> my mistake :p
 185 2012-09-24 01:14:43 <amiller> lysdexia
 186 2012-09-24 01:15:02 <jgarzik> amiller: I know kyoto has transactions... I think tokyo does too
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 188 2012-09-24 01:17:00 <jgarzik> amiller: btw to speed up current pynode w/ gdbm, enable fast_dbm parameter to ChainDb
 189 2012-09-24 01:17:28 <amiller> jgarzik, i saw that but never tried it :/ how much faster does it go? it may be that my experience gdbm was mostly influenced by that
 190 2012-09-24 01:17:48 <amiller> and leveldb might not be that much faster (gevent ftw still)
 191 2012-09-24 01:17:52 <jgarzik> amiller: depends on your storage setup, noticably faster here.
 192 2012-09-24 01:18:15 <jgarzik> amiller: right now my disk is running constantly, writing, thanks to pynode+gdbm ;p
 193 2012-09-24 01:18:29 <amiller> does it jam up your whole computer
 194 2012-09-24 01:18:37 <amiller> that's what i felt, but top said it wasn't memory or cpu, so it must be disk
 195 2012-09-24 01:18:52 <amiller> i didn't come up with a way to monitor my disk behavior but it felt like gdbm was being very inefficient with it
 196 2012-09-24 01:19:46 <amiller> anyway my main concern is safety
 197 2012-09-24 01:19:51 <amiller> so i'm going to fix the transactional problem
 198 2012-09-24 01:20:07 <amiller> possibly by having a different db for the utxo vs the blocks
 199 2012-09-24 01:21:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 200 2012-09-24 01:21:20 <amiller> (hint: a reorg is likely to send you to a slow disk or even a server)
 201 2012-09-24 01:22:07 <jgarzik> amiller: store blocks in a flat file.  magically, you have a different db for the utxo and blocks ;p
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 203 2012-09-24 01:22:45 <amiller> heh
 204 2012-09-24 01:22:58 <amiller> i also have a different utxo index than everyone else in the world, if i store offsets
 205 2012-09-24 01:23:06 <amiller> so much for deduplication
 206 2012-09-24 01:23:33 <jgarzik> amiller: we should do that anyway:  it is a nifty optimization to store blocks with a P2P wire format header.  then, you may use sendfile(2) to send to the network very efficiently.
 207 2012-09-24 01:23:38 <jgarzik> zero-copy goodness
 208 2012-09-24 01:23:58 <amiller> what i want is a range query
 209 2012-09-24 01:23:59 <amiller> of blocks
 210 2012-09-24 01:24:00 <amiller> by height
 211 2012-09-24 01:24:03 <amiller> given a particular chain
 212 2012-09-24 01:24:14 <jgarzik> amiller: that's what the pynode height index is for
 213 2012-09-24 01:24:15 <amiller> i don't want other blocks mixed in
 214 2012-09-24 01:24:18 <amiller> then again
 215 2012-09-24 01:24:18 <amiller> hm
 216 2012-09-24 01:24:21 <jgarzik> amiller: key: height number
 217 2012-09-24 01:24:28 <jgarzik> amiller: value: array of blocks at that height
 218 2012-09-24 01:24:50 <amiller> oh wow, i wonder how long that takes to write
 219 2012-09-24 01:25:21 <jgarzik> amiller: ?  quite small
 220 2012-09-24 01:25:24 <amiller> nvm
 221 2012-09-24 01:25:28 <amiller> i read that backwards, sorry excuse me
 222 2012-09-24 01:25:42 <amiller> okay yeah the height index makes sense
 223 2012-09-24 01:25:53 <amiller> wait but those are seeks right
 224 2012-09-24 01:25:57 <amiller> so if i want to sendfile
 225 2012-09-24 01:26:39 <amiller> what i want to do is ask a node for (startblkhash,endblkhash) and get all that data
 226 2012-09-24 01:26:40 <amiller> just that data
 227 2012-09-24 01:26:59 <amiller> i can get a specific block as a subset of that
 228 2012-09-24 01:27:11 <jgarzik> amiller: getblocks P2P message does precisely that
 229 2012-09-24 01:27:40 <jgarzik> amiller: RPC, it can be done, but more slowly and with more iteration on your part
 230 2012-09-24 01:28:09 <amiller> how are those requests handled?
 231 2012-09-24 01:28:11 <amiller> with a single seek?
 232 2012-09-24 01:28:30 <amiller> or with a seek for over the height index
 233 2012-09-24 01:28:56 <amiller> er basically a seek for each block since each block has to be looked up by offset in the blkindex
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 236 2012-09-24 01:30:26 <jgarzik> amiller: if you are asking for (startblkhash,endblkhash) you do not need a height index
 237 2012-09-24 01:30:34 <jgarzik> just walk the chain, from startblkhash
 238 2012-09-24 01:31:02 <jgarzik> amiller: bitcoind indexes the chain as a doubly-linked list, permitting traversal in either direction
 239 2012-09-24 01:31:12 <jgarzik> amiller: pynode uses the height index to perform the same function
 240 2012-09-24 01:31:46 <amiller> which p2p message gives me just the headers
 241 2012-09-24 01:31:51 <jgarzik> amiller: bitcoind cannot directly seek to a height, but must walk the block header list
 242 2012-09-24 01:31:57 <jgarzik> amiller: getheaders, apt named ;p
 243 2012-09-24 01:32:09 <jgarzik> *aptly
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 245 2012-09-24 01:32:28 <amiller> heh, believe it or not i didn't notice that one
 246 2012-09-24 01:32:59 <amiller> it's better to traverse from the end backwards
 247 2012-09-24 01:33:05 <amiller> the reason why is that you're guaranteed to make progress
 248 2012-09-24 01:33:09 <amiller> or else reject early on
 249 2012-09-24 01:33:12 <jgarzik> amiller: indeed, sipa has a proposal called "reverse header sync"
 250 2012-09-24 01:33:37 <jgarzik> amiller: it seems more sane than the current "magic inv" method of signalling block download continuance
 251 2012-09-24 01:34:44 <amiller> reverse header sync goes nicely with 'user specifies last known valid block'
 252 2012-09-24 01:35:41 lggr has joined
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 254 2012-09-24 01:36:30 <jgarzik> amiller: actually what we do is send a CBlockLocator, a selection of hashes
 255 2012-09-24 01:37:10 <jgarzik> amiller: because, consider if you're on a side chain, only sending your last-best would simply result in a remote node response of "never heard of that"
 256 2012-09-24 01:37:13 * amiller needs to read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification more carefully at this point
 257 2012-09-24 01:38:26 <amiller> i don't get it, then how do i get hashes in the first place
 258 2012-09-24 01:38:52 <jgarzik> amiller: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.h#L1268 shows how to build a CBlockLocator, taking exponentially larger steps back
 259 2012-09-24 01:39:01 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 260 2012-09-24 01:39:13 <jgarzik> amiller: well, your client is required to know block #0, genesis block
 261 2012-09-24 01:39:17 <jgarzik> amiller: everything else is negotiated
 262 2012-09-24 01:39:25 <amiller> oh lol, it does steps exponential back
 263 2012-09-24 01:39:41 <amiller> i bet that resembles the way queries would work in my hash-value skip graph thing
 264 2012-09-24 01:39:45 <amiller> okay that kinda makes sense
 265 2012-09-24 01:39:52 <amiller> so no matter what you can make progress based on one of those
 266 2012-09-24 01:39:57 <jgarzik> yep
 267 2012-09-24 01:40:59 <amiller> and this is just for block meta data
 268 2012-09-24 01:41:10 <amiller> what's the minimum amount of data you need to validate work
 269 2012-09-24 01:42:10 <amiller> the header i think
 270 2012-09-24 01:42:28 <amiller> okay so if i craft a block locator
 271 2012-09-24 01:42:31 <amiller> based on an arbitrary rule
 272 2012-09-24 01:42:40 <amiller> i can send it to someone else and they will fulfill whatever hashes are in it?
 273 2012-09-24 01:44:10 <amiller> i still don't understand how the client finds out about the hashes in the first place
 274 2012-09-24 01:44:39 maaku has joined
 275 2012-09-24 01:46:22 <jgarzik> amiller: you have the root hash, the genesis block, hardcoded
 276 2012-09-24 01:46:46 <jgarzik> amiller: you craft a block locator with that hash, saying "this is my latest hash"
 277 2012-09-24 01:46:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 278 2012-09-24 01:46:53 <amiller> okay so how does the first message go
 279 2012-09-24 01:46:54 <jgarzik> amiller: you are sent an "inv" in return
 280 2012-09-24 01:46:56 <amiller> "my latest hash is genesis"
 281 2012-09-24 01:47:21 <jgarzik> amiller: msg_getblocks(cblocklocator(genesis block))
 282 2012-09-24 01:47:37 <jgarzik> amiller: <- msg_inv(500 hashes)
 283 2012-09-24 01:48:25 <amiller> okay and right now it goes from the gensis forward
 284 2012-09-24 01:48:30 <amiller> so that would give me the first 500 hashes
 285 2012-09-24 01:48:35 lggr has joined
 286 2012-09-24 01:48:39 <amiller> what's sipa's proposal
 287 2012-09-24 01:48:45 <amiller> i didn't find it
 288 2012-09-24 01:49:03 <jgarzik> amiller: right you get the first 500 hashes __including the magic top-of-tree hash__
 289 2012-09-24 01:49:25 <jgarzik> amiller: this top-of-tree is special, telling you to trigger the next msg_getblocks
 290 2012-09-24 01:49:34 <jgarzik> *top-of-tree hash
 291 2012-09-24 01:49:43 <jgarzik> amiller: it is an ugly hack
 292 2012-09-24 01:49:45 <amiller> so i could get led on a wild goose chase
 293 2012-09-24 01:49:51 <jgarzik> amiller: reverse header sync is much more elegant
 294 2012-09-24 01:50:03 <jgarzik> amiller: or get stuck, which is more common
 295 2012-09-24 01:50:10 <amiller> okay check this out
 296 2012-09-24 01:50:13 <amiller> it's assumed that whoever you're asking
 297 2012-09-24 01:50:16 <amiller> has them all right
 298 2012-09-24 01:50:20 <amiller> and can seek arbitrarily
 299 2012-09-24 01:50:25 <amiller> pick a random number
 300 2012-09-24 01:50:33 <amiller> tell them to draw random hashes based on that
 301 2012-09-24 01:50:57 <jgarzik> for what purpose?
 302 2012-09-24 01:51:10 <kjj_> also, I'm not sure that we can actually seek arbitrarily at this point
 303 2012-09-24 01:51:20 <amiller> yeah forget that part
 304 2012-09-24 01:51:27 <jgarzik> bitcoind can seek to a hash.  pynode can seek to a hash, or height.
 305 2012-09-24 01:51:28 <amiller> we'd like to avoid seeking more here
 306 2012-09-24 01:51:46 <jgarzik> getheader is efficient... we index 100% of the block header
 307 2012-09-24 01:51:47 <kjj_> right, but not, I think, to the hash closest to a random number
 308 2012-09-24 01:51:53 <jgarzik> kjj_: correct
 309 2012-09-24 01:51:59 <jgarzik> HOWEVER
 310 2012-09-24 01:52:05 <jgarzik> bitcoind stores BDB data in a b-tree
 311 2012-09-24 01:52:06 galambo_ has joined
 312 2012-09-24 01:52:16 <jgarzik> which supports range queries and lt/gt queries
 313 2012-09-24 01:52:37 <kjj_> ahh, ok.  so it could see to (HASH >= RANDOM) or whatever
 314 2012-09-24 01:52:38 <jgarzik> nevertheless, I don't see how it would be useful
 315 2012-09-24 01:52:45 <jgarzik> even if possible
 316 2012-09-24 01:53:29 <jgarzik> pynode's backend db's currently do not support lt/gt/range queries
 317 2012-09-24 01:54:05 <maaku> is work calculated from the target or the actual hash value?
 318 2012-09-24 01:54:07 <amiller> leveldb does range queries
 319 2012-09-24 01:54:15 <amiller> maaku, from the target, definitely
 320 2012-09-24 01:54:21 <maaku> k thx
 321 2012-09-24 01:54:28 <gmaxwell> maaku: the target. actual hash value would be quite problematic. :P
 322 2012-09-24 01:54:32 galambo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 323 2012-09-24 01:55:07 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 324 2012-09-24 01:56:04 <jgarzik> hrm
 325 2012-09-24 01:56:16 * jgarzik wonders when getheaders was added to the P2P commandset?
 326 2012-09-24 01:57:21 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/pynode/blob/master/node.py#L418 this is a loop that would be better off as a range scan
 327 2012-09-24 01:57:46 <amiller> it probably doesn't matter a whole lot, i guess the interesting thing is it's a separate behavior altogether, i've only encountered 'validation from scratch' so far
 328 2012-09-24 01:57:48 <jgarzik> commit f03304a9c79a6cc6096ed501ad38702fd012e7f7
 329 2012-09-24 01:57:48 <jgarzik> Author: s_nakamoto <s_nakamoto@1a98c847-1fd6-4fd8-948a-caf3550aa51b>
 330 2012-09-24 01:57:49 <jgarzik> Date:   Sun Dec 5 09:29:30 2010 +0000
 331 2012-09-24 01:57:49 <jgarzik>     preps for future client-only mode,
 332 2012-09-24 01:59:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Yes, recall— is was generally not a fan of there being multiple implementations. So I assume everything he expected the system to have, he expected to be in The Client.
 333 2012-09-24 01:59:14 <jgarzik> serialize.h:static const int VERSION = 31703;
 334 2012-09-24 01:59:46 <jgarzik> that's when "getheaders" was added
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 337 2012-09-24 02:03:06 <jgarzik> amiller: hum?  don't see a loop there
 338 2012-09-24 02:04:35 <amiller> yeah lol i literally pushed and altered the semantics of that link
 339 2012-09-24 02:04:36 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/pynode/blob/master/node.py#L390
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 342 2012-09-24 02:07:12 <jgarzik> amiller: agreed RE range scan then ;p
 343 2012-09-24 02:09:06 <amiller> getdata() seems like its the big one though
 344 2012-09-24 02:09:52 <amiller> i could make like a super block serving index and just run it as a peer node and anyone that connects to it will get all their blocks super duper fast
 345 2012-09-24 02:10:02 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 347 2012-09-24 02:11:36 <jgarzik> amiller: yep, that's the idea of an archive node, in the future when there is a distinction between those who have the blockchain, and those who may just validate new transactions and blocks
 348 2012-09-24 02:11:54 <jgarzik> amiller: and my idea of storing blocks in sendfile(2)-ready format would be helpful
 349 2012-09-24 02:13:22 <kjj_> could pynode be hacked into that superseeder?
 350 2012-09-24 02:13:50 <amiller> yeah totally it's almost there right now
 351 2012-09-24 02:14:06 <kjj_> that it can only handle one connection at a time isn't a big deal.  just make it disconnect when done.
 352 2012-09-24 02:14:25 <jgarzik> kjj_: amiller fixed that limitation yesterday, by converting it to gevent
 353 2012-09-24 02:14:35 <jgarzik> kjj_: now i can add multi-peer support easily
 354 2012-09-24 02:14:35 <kjj_> ahh, even better
 355 2012-09-24 02:14:45 <jgarzik> amiller: thanks again for that
 356 2012-09-24 02:14:50 <amiller> rock on
 357 2012-09-24 02:15:08 <kjj_> although, for this one particular purpose, inetd could have been sufficient
 358 2012-09-24 02:15:11 <amiller> it's still hitting the database locked
 359 2012-09-24 02:15:26 <amiller> there's one big lock around the leveldb
 360 2012-09-24 02:15:39 <jgarzik> amiller: you'll just have to tolerate my idle rants about disliking gevent's model though ;p
 361 2012-09-24 02:17:19 <amiller> so like 50% of the time is spent hitting the leveldb
 362 2012-09-24 02:17:34 ZenInTexas has left ()
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 364 2012-09-24 02:17:43 <amiller> quite a lot still in serialization
 365 2012-09-24 02:17:53 <amiller> this is while catching up to a checkpoint
 366 2012-09-24 02:18:03 <amiller> http://i.imgur.com/LJIBr.png
 367 2012-09-24 02:19:45 <jgarzik> amiller: python copies data to hell and back
 368 2012-09-24 02:20:41 <amiller> why is calcmerkle being called
 369 2012-09-24 02:22:18 <amiller> ahaha i got it
 370 2012-09-24 02:22:22 <amiller> efficient guided tour through the blockchain
 371 2012-09-24 02:22:30 lggr has joined
 372 2012-09-24 02:22:32 <amiller> so if you're validating a chain from scratch
 373 2012-09-24 02:22:38 <amiller> rather than storing everything in a random access database
 374 2012-09-24 02:22:49 <amiller> what you want to do is read from a stream
 375 2012-09-24 02:22:56 <amiller> that gives you exactly the right data at exactly the right time
 376 2012-09-24 02:23:30 <amiller> basically with every piece of information
 377 2012-09-24 02:23:41 <amiller> you need to have an 'oracle' that predicts when you're going to need it next
 378 2012-09-24 02:24:12 <gmaxwell> amiller: for a full validation you need all data twice, however. Once when it gets added to the chain, once when it's spent.
 379 2012-09-24 02:24:20 <gmaxwell> Can only order data one way.
 380 2012-09-24 02:24:21 <amiller> right but if you're catching up to the front
 381 2012-09-24 02:24:24 jchristi has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 382 2012-09-24 02:24:26 <amiller> you know when both of those occur
 383 2012-09-24 02:24:34 <amiller> so the first time you read it
 384 2012-09-24 02:24:38 <amiller> you toss it out in front of you
 385 2012-09-24 02:24:47 <amiller> you don't put it in a slow random access database
 386 2012-09-24 02:24:51 <amiller> to be indexed and indexed forever
 387 2012-09-24 02:26:15 <gmaxwell> One of the neat things a UTXO setup could do though— have an on he wire protocol that gives you the O(1) positions with the txn, allowing you to save a bunch of local IO with a bit of network traffic..
 388 2012-09-24 02:26:25 TheEslbear has joined
 389 2012-09-24 02:26:39 <gmaxwell> amiller: a hot-cache generally useful too, if you want to predict which transactions are more likely to be spent quickly.
 390 2012-09-24 02:26:52 <jgarzik> amiller: keeping all block headers in RAM is not burdensome...
 391 2012-09-24 02:27:19 <gmaxwell> Keeping all txouts in ram is not currently burdensom, in fact. :P
 392 2012-09-24 02:27:29 <amiller> there's three things really
 393 2012-09-24 02:27:32 <amiller> there's catching up to a checkpoint
 394 2012-09-24 02:27:43 <amiller> there's catching up to the front from a checkpoint, validating along the way
 395 2012-09-24 02:27:52 <amiller> and there's answering arbitrary tx validation questions about the current heat
 396 2012-09-24 02:27:53 <amiller> head*
 397 2012-09-24 02:28:06 <amiller> you need a random access utxo for answering arbitrary tx validation
 398 2012-09-24 02:28:15 <amiller> you don't necessarily need one to catch up to the front from a checkpoint
 399 2012-09-24 02:28:25 <jgarzik> don't focus so much on checkpoints
 400 2012-09-24 02:28:31 <jgarzik> they are a hack, to speed things up
 401 2012-09-24 02:28:47 <jgarzik> if signature checking was theoretically cost-free, we would not bother
 402 2012-09-24 02:28:51 <amiller> hm
 403 2012-09-24 02:29:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 404 2012-09-24 02:29:24 <jgarzik> the other purpose of checkpoints -- to lock in block chain, preventing overly long reorg rewriting ancient history -- is largely a passive check
 405 2012-09-24 02:29:42 Eslbaer has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 406 2012-09-24 02:29:58 <amiller> regardless, if you don't need a _random access_ utxo to do validation you can probably use a different structure
 407 2012-09-24 02:30:05 <amiller> and get a gain in... parallelizability for validation there
 408 2012-09-24 02:31:48 <gmaxwell> (To clarify jgarzik's 'passive check'— the clear _threat_ of a checkpoint almostly costlessly mooting your enormous rewrite discourages investment in creating one.)
 409 2012-09-24 02:32:54 <gmaxwell> they also stifel some stupid DOS attacks that will go away with header-sync.
 410 2012-09-24 02:34:05 lggr has joined
 411 2012-09-24 02:34:45 <amiller> checkpoints aren't a hack if you use them to make a backup or to clone new instances of your node
 412 2012-09-24 02:34:54 ColloquyUser has joined
 413 2012-09-24 02:35:08 <amiller> i'm not sure how i feel about letting you get away with the argument that it shouldn't be included because it makes it too easy to save time
 414 2012-09-24 02:35:22 <amiller> and that there's a way of saving time that involves being vulnerable to trusting someone else
 415 2012-09-24 02:35:45 <gmaxwell> amiller: well I fully support the self-backup case, its the trust that people simply don't have the information or patience to reason about.
 416 2012-09-24 02:35:47 <amiller> how about a big warning, like the TSA, that says "are you sure you have previously validated this checkpoint yourself? have you ever relied on someone else to validate it for you?"
 417 2012-09-24 02:36:18 <gmaxwell> amiller: that fails human factors; it will mostly get ignored; and when it doesn't it will stress out people.
 418 2012-09-24 02:36:50 <gmaxwell> more-meta; things like that even if not ignored undermine trust in the system because people will expect them to be widely ignored.
 419 2012-09-24 02:37:19 <gmaxwell> Better to just avoid the exposure; especially exposure created from really small microoptimizations.
 420 2012-09-24 02:40:00 <amiller> how about this
 421 2012-09-24 02:40:05 <amiller> validate the work of all the nodes, including your checkpoints
 422 2012-09-24 02:40:22 <amiller> if there's a chain of headers with longer work, then switch to that or validate it concurrently or something
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 427 2012-09-24 02:42:04 <gmaxwell> amiller: ah, not influencing selection.. could call 'em amiller points. Only useful if you have the headers first. Might be a fine assumption.
 428 2012-09-24 02:42:23 <gmaxwell> Certantly thats less of a concern.
 429 2012-09-24 02:42:38 <amiller> honestly checkpoints written in the source code should undermine trust in the system more than anything else, it shows that the developers don't trust the users but expect the users to trust them
 430 2012-09-24 02:43:03 <gmaxwell> degrades people to SPV security when they trust a random checkpoint found on the internet, not the end of the world.
 431 2012-09-24 02:43:50 <gmaxwell> amiller: it's not about trusting the users. Its that the developers have actually spent non-trivial effort to understand and consider it, and most people haven't— and if they have, it's trivial to twiddle the checkpoints in the source.
 432 2012-09-24 02:44:18 <gmaxwell> amiller: moreover, it's not like we have automatic updates. Everyone still has to choose to install the software.
 433 2012-09-24 02:44:38 <gmaxwell> (and of course, our ability to do malicious things in the software is otherwise unbounded except by that)
 434 2012-09-24 02:45:01 <gmaxwell> s/install the software/install the update/
 435 2012-09-24 02:45:13 <amiller> well the developers are only responsible for 'The Client'
 436 2012-09-24 02:45:26 <gmaxwell> Yep. That too.
 437 2012-09-24 02:45:36 <amiller> so it's a shame if more people use electrum or non-nodes because of 'The Client' being too restrictive
 438 2012-09-24 02:45:37 ZenInTexas has joined
 439 2012-09-24 02:45:47 <gmaxwell> I'm uncomfortable about the checkpoints; mostly because they're a distraction that complicates explaining the security model.
 440 2012-09-24 02:46:08 ColloquyUser has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 441 2012-09-24 02:46:09 <gmaxwell> amiller: you need to stop. you're getting annoying. :(  You're obessing over minutia.
 442 2012-09-24 02:46:20 <jgarzik> ah hah!  just hit block 193,000.  maybe my system will be usable again, upon switching from being disk-bound to CPU-bound
 443 2012-09-24 02:46:52 <amiller> sorry, i don't really remember where i wandered off topic
 444 2012-09-24 02:47:16 <gmaxwell> amiller: not having that option in the default software adds a not huge percentage of time in just the cases where the user might otherwise have some magic value. It's not worth the discussion we've had here about it. Certantly not compared to something like putting the whole sync in the background.
 445 2012-09-24 02:47:28 PhantomSpark has joined
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 447 2012-09-24 02:49:13 <jgarzik> amiller: checkpoints will always be a pragmatic hack, not a key part of the security model
 448 2012-09-24 02:49:31 * jgarzik tends to be less aggressive about it than other devs, favoring a checkpoint no more recent than 6 months
 449 2012-09-24 02:49:42 <amiller> i mean to just talk about checkpoints as a practical tool'
 450 2012-09-24 02:49:51 <amiller> gmaxwell, you said something about the design needing to be completely changed or something like that
 451 2012-09-24 02:49:57 <amiller> checkpoints are a way of understanding how background sync would work
 452 2012-09-24 02:50:00 <gmaxwell> In the long term I hope the reference client, works like: new nodes should start as SPV— so new users get instant-on, in the background pull the commited utxo set and become medium nodes, then pull the history when they get around it— if they have the resources.
 453 2012-09-24 02:50:05 <jgarzik> amiller: they can be helpful in validating reverse-header-sync
 454 2012-09-24 02:50:10 <jgarzik> amiller: if you are coming at it from that angle
 455 2012-09-24 02:50:15 <gmaxwell> amiller: I don't think checkpoints have any role in a background sync.
 456 2012-09-24 02:50:19 ZenInTexas has quit (Client Quit)
 457 2012-09-24 02:50:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: you can know that the remote is wildly off-track at block 193,000
 458 2012-09-24 02:51:02 <amiller> gmaxwell, see you left off the middle step
 459 2012-09-24 02:51:10 <amiller> new users get instant on, but they're SPV so they can't validate transactions
 460 2012-09-24 02:51:14 <amiller> nvm
 461 2012-09-24 02:51:20 <amiller> you included the medium step and i didn't read it
 462 2012-09-24 02:51:29 <amiller> yeah
 463 2012-09-24 02:54:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thats true. Fair. Though headers are so cheap...
 464 2012-09-24 02:55:57 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 465 2012-09-24 02:57:45 <jgarzik> woah!  my pybond greenlets shite works better than the shite asyncore code with the shite asyncore
 466 2012-09-24 02:58:03 <amiller> shits roses
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 471 2012-09-24 03:01:41 <jgarzik> amiller: pushed to pybond.git.  credited you with the change, as it was mostly me porting over your code from your branch.
 472 2012-09-24 03:02:04 <jgarzik> now to get the DHT converted to greenshite
 473 2012-09-24 03:04:03 <amiller> you should backup your leveldb every so often, it can crash in an invalid state
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 476 2012-09-24 03:07:34 <jgarzik> amiller: for pynode, still on checkpoint+gdbm validation run :/
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 484 2012-09-24 03:32:31 <jgarzik> amiller: pybond DHT converted to greenlet.  we should be good to go there.
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 487 2012-09-24 03:36:09 <amiller> hrm, badass would be to have the utxo on redis
 488 2012-09-24 03:36:25 <jrmithdobbs> looks like there's finally onion-capable nodes beside me sipa and gmaxwell ;p
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 490 2012-09-24 03:38:43 <amiller> that will be fast and it will journal like a champ
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 493 2012-09-24 03:53:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: this requires protocol extensions, yes?  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/Reverse_header-fetching_sync
 494 2012-09-24 03:53:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: current bitcoin only supports forward header walk, AFAICS
 495 2012-09-24 03:55:00 <jrmithdobbs> looks like we've actually got some people bringing up brand new nodes with -onlynet=tor, glad to see that
 496 2012-09-24 03:55:08 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: thanks for that, again
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 530 2012-09-24 05:27:59 <jgarzik> gah
 531 2012-09-24 05:28:04 <jgarzik> the bitcoin P2P code is such shite
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 533 2012-09-24 05:28:24 <jgarzik> boost is verbose shite, but boost.asio would make bitcoin's shite less shitty
 534 2012-09-24 05:28:35 <eian> lol
 535 2012-09-24 05:29:23 <jgarzik> we create kernel threads just to open connections, then sleep for a long time.  an easy task for async networking.
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 545 2012-09-24 05:49:24 <jgarzik> hmmm
 546 2012-09-24 05:49:33 <jgarzik> I wonder if there is a way to make some coins "do not spend"
 547 2012-09-24 05:49:40 <jgarzik> *mark
 548 2012-09-24 05:50:14 <jgarzik> so that sendtoaddress/sendfrom does not wind up accidentally spending a smartcoin (colored coin)
 549 2012-09-24 05:51:49 <jgarzik> lock/unlock coins, one could call it
 550 2012-09-24 05:52:01 <Luke-Jr> that was one Coin Control use case
 551 2012-09-24 05:52:14 <Luke-Jr> might be useful to label individual coins too
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 596 2012-09-24 07:19:24 <ThomasV> jgarzik: you can freeze some of your coins
 597 2012-09-24 07:19:39 <jgarzik> ThomasV: oh?
 598 2012-09-24 07:19:51 <ThomasV> right click + freeze
 599 2012-09-24 07:20:02 <jgarzik> ThomasV: I'm using bitcoind
 600 2012-09-24 07:20:13 lggr has joined
 601 2012-09-24 07:20:22 <ThomasV> oh, sorry, I'm in the wrong channel. you can do that with Electrum :)
 602 2012-09-24 07:24:14 <jeremias> oh that's cool, didn't know about that feature
 603 2012-09-24 07:24:18 <jeremias> electrum rocks
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 606 2012-09-24 07:29:22 <ThomasV> jeremias: you can also prioritize some coins if you want them to be spent first
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 609 2012-09-24 07:31:07 <Luke-Jr> ThomasV: wrong channel? Electrum is on-topic here…
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 615 2012-09-24 07:36:43 <jeremias> ThomasV: so what's your situation nowadays, do you still develop electrum?
 616 2012-09-24 07:36:53 <jeremias> or are you focusing on something new?
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 624 2012-09-24 07:39:55 <ThomasV> jeremias: I handed it over to genjix and Animazing
 625 2012-09-24 07:40:16 <ThomasV> and yes, I am focusing on someething new
 626 2012-09-24 07:40:34 <jeremias> bitcoin-related?
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 628 2012-09-24 07:40:38 <ThomasV> yes
 629 2012-09-24 07:40:52 <jeremias> cool, is it secret? :)
 630 2012-09-24 07:41:01 <ThomasV> no.. :)
 631 2012-09-24 07:41:13 <ThomasV> a Diaspora node
 632 2012-09-24 07:41:24 <jeremias> ahh yep, you told me about that already
 633 2012-09-24 07:41:27 <jeremias> have to check it out
 634 2012-09-24 07:41:31 <jeremias> when I have time :)
 635 2012-09-24 07:41:43 <ThomasV> it's not finished now
 636 2012-09-24 07:41:47 <jeremias> ok
 637 2012-09-24 07:41:54 <jeremias> could I integrate that with localbitcoins?
 638 2012-09-24 07:42:10 <jeremias> (I don't know the concept)
 639 2012-09-24 07:42:12 <ThomasV> possibly. that's why I asked you about your api
 640 2012-09-24 07:43:51 <ThomasV> you can have a look here: https://ecdsa.org/tags/bitcoin
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 644 2012-09-24 07:45:54 <ThomasV> but I still want to develop Electrum too
 645 2012-09-24 07:46:13 <ThomasV> there are a few things that I plan to do for it
 646 2012-09-24 07:46:31 <jeremias> I'm more interested towards developing some kind of "electrum utility" library
 647 2012-09-24 07:46:39 <ThomasV> yes
 648 2012-09-24 07:46:46 <jeremias> not a client, but a library which developers can use
 649 2012-09-24 07:47:14 <ThomasV> well, you can see that there are a few scripts in the repo, but they are currently broken
 650 2012-09-24 07:47:21 <jeremias> I'm generally interested more towards establishing libraries and utilities which could spawn a large bitcoin developer company
 651 2012-09-24 07:47:26 <ThomasV> I want to fix them
 652 2012-09-24 07:47:32 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 653 2012-09-24 07:47:37 <jeremias> make it easy for everyone to make their own bitcoin website/service/etc
 654 2012-09-24 07:47:47 <ThomasV> yes, a merchant solution
 655 2012-09-24 07:48:56 <ThomasV> I have developed a script that uses a master public key and generates new bitcoin addresses for a website, and also detects payments
 656 2012-09-24 07:49:08 <ThomasV> it's being used for my diaspora node
 657 2012-09-24 07:49:15 <ThomasV> and I will add it to the repo
 658 2012-09-24 07:49:43 <ThomasV> but I need to smooth it a little bit
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 668 2012-09-24 08:09:16 <lui_> Hi is it possible in bitcoin-qt 0.7.0 to add walletpath param or only -datadir?
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 692 2012-09-24 08:56:31 <_dr> iirc the wallet has to be in datadir for now, some restriction by DBD
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 694 2012-09-24 08:57:16 <Luke-Jr> bdb*
 695 2012-09-24 08:57:33 <_dr> right :)
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 703 2012-09-24 09:06:47 <sturles> You could always make wallet.dat a symlink to your favourite location.
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 800 2012-09-24 12:55:14 <kjj_> is hopping on testnet really as simple as putting testnet=1 in the config file and changing the ports?
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 802 2012-09-24 12:58:57 <gavinandresen> kjj_: yes (-testnet=1 -rpcport=whatever is all you need)
 803 2012-09-24 12:59:47 <kinlo> don't think you need to change the port tough...
 804 2012-09-24 12:59:58 <kinlo> just putting testnet=1 should do the trick
 805 2012-09-24 13:00:10 <gmaxwell> kinlo: you do it if you want to run it concurrently with a regular node.
 806 2012-09-24 13:00:18 <kinlo> true
 807 2012-09-24 13:00:22 <gavinandresen> "we" ought to change that
 808 2012-09-24 13:01:00 <gmaxwell> Indeed. Didn't this question come up before? Why didn't we change it then?
 809 2012-09-24 13:01:51 <gavinandresen> because "we" never got around to it....
 810 2012-09-24 13:02:30 <gmaxwell> oh, good, just as long as it wasn't derailed by a long discussion of which port to use. :P
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 813 2012-09-24 13:03:30 <kjj_> need to duplicate the GetDefaultPort call in protocol.h?
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 821 2012-09-24 13:18:17 <kjj_> ok, silly question.  in bitcoinrpc.cpp, there are two calls to GetArg for -rpcport, one takes 8332 as an integer, one takes it as a string
 822 2012-09-24 13:18:32 <kjj_> ahh, never mind.  I think I know what to do.  overloading ftw
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 826 2012-09-24 13:27:52 <kjj_> ok, I guess you can't do that.  two functions then
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 846 2012-09-24 13:48:41 <kjj_> hey, can someone look at a branch for me before I turn it into a pullreq?
 847 2012-09-24 13:48:48 <kjj_> https://github.com/kjj2/bitcoin/commit/3733a29f2a00cfcf6754976763d45bd605e2865d
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 866 2012-09-24 14:02:38 <TD> BlueMatt: poke
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 880 2012-09-24 14:17:20 <gavinandresen> kjj_: NACK. const bool as a function argument doesn't make sense, you shouldn't strcpy to an uninitialized local variable, and there should be just one GetDefaultRPCPort that returns whatever datatype is most natural for a port (unsigned short ?)
 881 2012-09-24 14:18:44 lggr has joined
 882 2012-09-24 14:21:05 <kjj_> yeah, I noticed that when the segfaults started.  not really a C++ guy, so I wasn't sure how to do it.  also, spent too much time in languages that automatially handle memory allocation
 883 2012-09-24 14:21:21 <kjj_> I'm switching it to std::string, which, after some googling looks right
 884 2012-09-24 14:21:56 <gavinandresen> there should be just one GetDefaultRPCPort that returns an integral type
 885 2012-09-24 14:22:11 <kjj_> what's the C++ idiom to cast the ushort into a std::string for the function that requires it?
 886 2012-09-24 14:22:23 <gavinandresen> which function requires a string for port?
 887 2012-09-24 14:22:41 <gavinandresen> ... and are you sure there's not an overloaded version that takes an unsigned int?
 888 2012-09-24 14:22:41 <kjj_> d.connect() in bitcoinrpc.cpp
 889 2012-09-24 14:22:43 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
 890 2012-09-24 14:23:45 <gavinandresen> util.h has an itostr() function
 891 2012-09-24 14:23:47 <kjj_> it is hard to figure out what d is, because it is so hard to grep for, but the function only appears to exist in one form, taking a pair of const std::string& parameters
 892 2012-09-24 14:24:13 <kjj_> ok, trying it with itostr
 893 2012-09-24 14:24:17 Maccer has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 894 2012-09-24 14:24:37 <kjj_> spent too many years in PHP where you can just casually cast however you damn well please and the system figures it out for you like 99.99% of the time
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 896 2012-09-24 14:25:50 <gavinandresen> you should read a couple of C++ books if you want to do much C++ programming, otherwise you'll shoot yourself in the foot repeatedly
 897 2012-09-24 14:26:37 <kjj_> heh.  I know.  I think I have some, just haven't dusted them off in years.
 898 2012-09-24 14:28:25 <kjj_> make running.  protocol.h touches everything, so it'll take a while.
 899 2012-09-24 14:28:28 <kjj_> https://github.com/kjj2/bitcoin/commit/c744b8c1b930dc5c6e7eb079ace5793f64647d11
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 905 2012-09-24 14:34:24 <jgarzik> sipa gavinandresen: I would like to record the block height at which a wallet is "born"  Is there a triggering event that may be used as a proxy for wallet creation time?  Maybe watch for the first time the keypool is filled?
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 908 2012-09-24 14:35:29 <gmaxwell> http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/archive_articles/120924_Neuer_Globe_Bitcoin_fw/index_EN   ::hangs head::
 909 2012-09-24 14:35:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: why the wallet and why not each key?
 910 2012-09-24 14:35:51 <gmaxwell> (then the wallet age is just the oldest key's age)
 911 2012-09-24 14:36:41 <kjj_> wow!  a postdoc discovered the 0-conf double spend!
 912 2012-09-24 14:36:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: so to have one record "earliest block height"
 913 2012-09-24 14:37:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: wallet scans may start there, and you do not need full blocks below that
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 915 2012-09-24 14:37:59 <kjj_> going to add a parameter to importprivkey to set that height?
 916 2012-09-24 14:38:51 <gmaxwell> kjj_: hopefully the actual research backing that is something not stupid. Sometimes the press, even the science press, simplifies things to the point of utter stupidity.
 917 2012-09-24 14:39:12 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: putting a write-once wallet-creation-time in the wallet make sense.  But it also makes sense to associate times with keys; if I import a private key, it might have been created before my wallet
 918 2012-09-24 14:39:16 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: great, but thats a property of the keys, not the wallet itself— see kjj's import example.
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 920 2012-09-24 14:40:15 <kjj_> gmaxwell: his attack seems to require that the recipient be unable to communicate to the full network.
 921 2012-09-24 14:40:30 <gavinandresen> .... and I'd make it times, not block heights, because I think you might run into subtle bugs in weird re-org scenarios
 922 2012-09-24 14:41:17 <gmaxwell> Time is something you also know offline and when you're not in sync. So that helps too.
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 927 2012-09-24 14:48:15 <gmaxwell> kjj_: I do think we don't give quite enough heed to isolation attack concerns... though they're still pretty fringe, as mining 6 sure to be orphaned blocks is hard to make profitable...
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 929 2012-09-24 14:49:12 <kjj_> meh.  I'm sure that is right, but for now I have no problem expecting people that are accepting more than they can afford to lose to make sure they are well connected
 930 2012-09-24 14:50:01 <gmaxwell> kjj_: sure but the software provides no facility for that. If the attacker has compromised your ISP or your router (not that high a bar...) then you can appear to have many connections to diverse hosts.
 931 2012-09-24 14:50:34 <kjj_> then you need something signed, and/or out of band
 932 2012-09-24 14:50:57 optimator_ has joined
 933 2012-09-24 14:51:01 <kjj_> for example, https://blockexplorer.com/q/getblockcount
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 935 2012-09-24 14:51:48 <BlueMatt> TD: hey, re: subtraction looks backwards: yea, you are right, but make sure to test that on the bitcoind comparison tool, because I thought i had the final block size count right...
 936 2012-09-24 14:52:04 <TD> hrm
 937 2012-09-24 14:52:05 <TD> ok
 938 2012-09-24 14:52:08 <BlueMatt> TD: (re: other stuff, sorry it may take me a day or two before I really have time to respond)
 939 2012-09-24 14:52:08 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: writing code that detects a statistically-impossible-in-normal-operation drop in hash rate and warns the user that something smelly fishy would be nifty
 940 2012-09-24 14:52:11 <TD> no worries
 941 2012-09-24 14:52:17 <gmaxwell> kjj_: in sidebar conversations I had with sipa and forrestv an idea arose which could be useful for that... what if nodes merged mined tokens that were {addr,pubkey} pairs for observed good nodes. Then when you connect to a node it would give you the lowest hash value POW header set for their identity.
 942 2012-09-24 14:52:18 <kjj_> I think I figured out why no one ever bothered setting a default RPC port for testnet
 943 2012-09-24 14:52:20 <TD> i'm reviewing the code now but i'll make most of the changes myself
 944 2012-09-24 14:52:29 <TD> any comments that start with M: i'll fix when I merge as they're minor
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 946 2012-09-24 14:52:37 <BlueMatt> ack
 947 2012-09-24 14:53:09 <TD> BlueMatt: how do i use your comparison tool? are there any docs?
 948 2012-09-24 14:53:10 <kjj_> if you don't specify -rpcport, the RPC server doesn't accept connections, even though it binds to the port
 949 2012-09-24 14:53:14 <gmaxwell> kjj_: so the idea with that is that you'd want at least one or two peers which were authenticated by a 'sufficiently' high work token.
 950 2012-09-24 14:53:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: indeed.. the fact that six blocks are needed to hit the confirmed status should make it reasonably easy to avoid false positives.
 951 2012-09-24 14:54:36 <TD> you can also calculate "confirmedness" in terms of work done rather than blocks
 952 2012-09-24 14:54:40 <BlueMatt> TD: uhh...not really, just checkout the fullscripts branch (iirc i broke it if you dont enforce script checking), apply the included patch to bitcoind, and run bitcoind -connect=0.0.0.0  -listen
 953 2012-09-24 14:54:43 <TD> that's the direction i'm planning to eventually move bcj in
 954 2012-09-24 14:54:56 <BlueMatt> TD: then just running the comparison tool should work
 955 2012-09-24 14:55:00 <TD> BlueMatt: ok, thanks
 956 2012-09-24 14:55:03 <TD> 0.0.0.0?
 957 2012-09-24 14:55:06 <TD> you mean localhost?
 958 2012-09-24 14:55:08 <BlueMatt> ie dont connect out
 959 2012-09-24 14:55:10 <TD> oh
 960 2012-09-24 14:55:19 <BlueMatt> (well, shouldnt matter, I think I changed the magic anyway)
 961 2012-09-24 14:55:31 <TD> what does a PrunedException signify?
 962 2012-09-24 14:55:46 <BlueMatt> I pruned that block, if you want to go request it from the network and try that operation again
 963 2012-09-24 14:56:22 <BlueMatt> re: Stored*.java: yea, I believe I threw a //TODO: in there that just says "remove me/move me to the memoryfullprunedblockstore impl, which is all it matters for"
 964 2012-09-24 14:56:37 <TD> ah ha
 965 2012-09-24 14:56:40 <TD> i see
 966 2012-09-24 14:56:45 <BlueMatt> (to make sure we dont waste too much memory when storing in memory)
 967 2012-09-24 14:56:48 <TD> ok
 968 2012-09-24 14:56:50 <TD> thanks
 969 2012-09-24 14:57:21 <BlueMatt> Ill probably have some time on wednesday or thursday to hack around and fix bugs
 970 2012-09-24 14:57:42 <TD> for now just replying to any comments that aren't M: labelled will help
 971 2012-09-24 14:57:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 972 2012-09-24 14:57:58 <BlueMatt> (note on PrunedException: I dont think the blockchain is actually smart enough to handle it, but in theory thats what a prunedexception means)
 973 2012-09-24 14:58:14 <TD> ok
 974 2012-09-24 14:58:18 <TD> BlockWasPrunedException might be clearer
 975 2012-09-24 14:58:19 <BlueMatt> is there a way to inline reply to comments?
 976 2012-09-24 14:58:27 <TD> you can comment on the same line and that'll do it, iirc
 977 2012-09-24 14:58:29 <BlueMatt> ack, if you want to refactor that
 978 2012-09-24 14:58:30 <TD> google code isn't great
 979 2012-09-24 14:58:32 <TD> yeah, sure
 980 2012-09-24 15:00:22 <kjj_> ok, testnet=1, rpcport is not specified, server=1.  p2p opens on port 18333 as expected, RPC opens on port 18332, but only on ipv6
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 982 2012-09-24 15:02:13 <kjj_> testnet also seems to have no fallback nodes, so nothing connects when irc=0
 983 2012-09-24 15:02:26 <gmaxwell> kjj_: you sure it's only on IPv6?  a v6 socket also accepts v4 connections.
 984 2012-09-24 15:02:40 <gmaxwell> kjj_: correct, testnet defaults to irc enabled for a reason (while mainnet does not)
 985 2012-09-24 15:02:55 <kjj_> hmm.  I didn't even think my box knew about ipv6, so I was a bit shocked to see tcp6 in the netstat
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 988 2012-09-24 15:03:58 <kjj_> ok yeah, it is accepting connections
 989 2012-09-24 15:04:18 <kjj_> but for some reason, it isn't setting the default port when making the RPC call to the running server
 990 2012-09-24 15:05:16 optimator has joined
 991 2012-09-24 15:05:28 <TD> BlueMatt: in the reorg code, when walking newBlocks in chronological order why are they being added to the block store (again)?
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 993 2012-09-24 15:06:35 <TD> ah right
 994 2012-09-24 15:06:43 <TD> you re-arranged things so it's not been added to the store by that point
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 998 2012-09-24 15:09:17 <BlueMatt> TD: how do I save comments from draft to comments?
 999 2012-09-24 15:09:43 <TD> on the main change screen there's a publish link
1000 2012-09-24 15:10:16 <BlueMatt> ah, see it, one sec
1001 2012-09-24 15:10:18 <jgarzik> hrm
1002 2012-09-24 15:10:25 <jgarzik> how does CKeyPool READWRITE nVersion
1003 2012-09-24 15:10:31 <jgarzik> ...when there is no nVersion in the struct?
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1007 2012-09-24 15:16:40 <BlueMatt> nVersion is defined as a part of the call to Serialize iirc
1008 2012-09-24 15:16:42 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ^
1009 2012-09-24 15:18:13 <kjj_> hmm.  ok, found the problem, but not the answer.  when starting up as a RPC client, the software doesn't appear to fully process the bitcoin.conf file, so it doesn't know that it is on testnet, thus it chooses the wrong default RPC port
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1011 2012-09-24 15:18:54 <TD> BlueMatt: for the comparison tool, do I need to run it against prodnet/with a fresh/empty wallet or can I just use my regular user install of bitcoin for it
1012 2012-09-24 15:19:00 OpenOcean has joined
1013 2012-09-24 15:19:37 <BlueMatt> TD: no, it has to be the custom net that the patch creates (I havent mined the blocks yet, so it requires a patch to make a lower mindiff)
1014 2012-09-24 15:19:46 <TD> oh right, yes, the patch.
1015 2012-09-24 15:19:47 <TD> got it
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1018 2012-09-24 15:22:40 <arij> hey did the september announcement happen yet?
1019 2012-09-24 15:22:52 <BlueMatt> yes, bitcoin has been sold to the nsa for $1 bill
1020 2012-09-24 15:23:15 <gavinandresen> kjj_: I don't believe you, the bitcoin.conf is definitely 'fully processed' when starting up as a RPC client.
1021 2012-09-24 15:23:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: shhh, not supposed to talk about that until tomorrow
1022 2012-09-24 15:23:40 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry
1023 2012-09-24 15:23:51 Arnavion has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1024 2012-09-24 15:23:53 <arij> :(
1025 2012-09-24 15:23:56 <arij> so i guess not
1026 2012-09-24 15:24:06 <arij> if you are annoucing tomorrow ?
1027 2012-09-24 15:24:14 Arnavion has joined
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1029 2012-09-24 15:24:37 <gavinandresen> arij: there are still a bunch of days left in September
1030 2012-09-24 15:25:03 <arij> yea but you just said tomorrow,
1031 2012-09-24 15:25:10 <arij> but yea there are 6 days left in september
1032 2012-09-24 15:25:20 <gavinandresen> I also said that we're selling to the nsa for $1
1033 2012-09-24 15:25:23 <arij> lol
1034 2012-09-24 15:25:24 <arij> ok
1035 2012-09-24 15:25:27 <arij> ill just wait
1036 2012-09-24 15:25:39 <kjj_> gavinadresen: my patch sets the RPC port correctly when run as a RPC server, but returns 8332 when run as a RPC client
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1038 2012-09-24 15:26:16 <kjj_> the call only depends on fTestNet
1039 2012-09-24 15:27:08 <gavinandresen> kjj_: then your patch has a bug.  Put a breakpoint in GetDefaultRPCPort and see where it is being called from; if it is called from a global constructor then fTestNet won't have been set uyet
1040 2012-09-24 15:29:24 <gavinandresen> kjj_: ah, I think I see the problem.  CommandLineRPC is called from AppInit().   fTestNet is set in AppInit2()
1041 2012-09-24 15:29:41 setkeh` is now known as setkeh
1042 2012-09-24 15:30:01 <gavinandresen> ... because if you're just a rpc client there's no need to do all the startup stuff AppInit2 does.
1043 2012-09-24 15:30:28 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. <nickname> tell RainbowDashh fix your quit message. And by "fix", I mean pick one that isn't incredibly annoying)
1044 2012-09-24 15:30:36 <gavinandresen> kjj_: so to fix, call GetBoolArg("-testnet", false) instead of relying on the fTestNet flag
1045 2012-09-24 15:31:15 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1046 2012-09-24 15:31:16 <kjj_> but I need the actual value of the -testnet flag
1047 2012-09-24 15:31:24 <kjj_> or of fTestNet
1048 2012-09-24 15:31:34 JZavala has joined
1049 2012-09-24 15:31:41 <gavinandresen> GetBoolArg("-testnet") is the value of the -testnet flag.
1050 2012-09-24 15:32:16 <kjj_> ahh, ok.  I get it.  the arg is set up, but the flag that gets set from the arg isn't yet
1051 2012-09-24 15:32:33 <kjj_> wouldn't it make more sense to move the fTestNet setting up into AppInit ?
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1053 2012-09-24 15:32:45 <TD> BlueMatt: i assume i should find a miner tool and make it cpu mine as well?
1054 2012-09-24 15:33:17 <gavinandresen> kjj_: I'd rather keep all of the parameter interactions in one place, in AppInit2
1055 2012-09-24 15:33:47 <BlueMatt> TD: it sets min diff to just the first bit, so the built-in test-case miner is used (and works fine)
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1058 2012-09-24 15:34:01 <TD> cool
1059 2012-09-24 15:34:03 <kjj_> should I change GetDefaultPort the same way?
1060 2012-09-24 15:34:11 lggr has joined
1061 2012-09-24 15:34:19 <BlueMatt> TD: (once its pretty solid, Ill go mine it and put in real nonce's...)
1062 2012-09-24 15:35:01 <gavinandresen> kjj_: fewer changes is better.  RPC client doesn't care about the p2p network port....
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1064 2012-09-24 15:35:39 <TD> BlueMatt: seems that you missed a commit somewhere, import org.apache.commons.lang.SystemUtils;  doesn't work
1065 2012-09-24 15:35:44 <TD> i guess there's a pom that needs updating
1066 2012-09-24 15:35:51 <TD> in BlockImporter
1067 2012-09-24 15:36:02 <BlueMatt> hmm...
1068 2012-09-24 15:36:26 <BlueMatt> I dont think I missed a commit, but I may have imported something then forgot to add it to the pom in a commit...
1069 2012-09-24 15:36:51 <TD> could be
1070 2012-09-24 15:37:29 <BlueMatt> where do you see that import?
1071 2012-09-24 15:37:31 <TD> seems the comparison tool doesn't work for me
1072 2012-09-24 15:37:33 <BlueMatt> oh, wait
1073 2012-09-24 15:37:53 <TD> it gets up to block 113 and re-orgs to 112
1074 2012-09-24 15:37:56 <TD> then stops
1075 2012-09-24 15:38:06 <TD> oh, no it's ok
1076 2012-09-24 15:38:17 <TD> seems like it just stopped for a while for some reason
1077 2012-09-24 15:38:27 <BlueMatt> there is one HUGE block in there
1078 2012-09-24 15:38:34 <BlueMatt> but I thought I disabled it by default...
1079 2012-09-24 15:39:01 <TD> the one with a ton of non standard transactions?
1080 2012-09-24 15:39:11 <BlueMatt> yea
1081 2012-09-24 15:39:23 <TD> yeah looks like it was crunching on that
1082 2012-09-24 15:39:26 <BlueMatt> there is one like that that has 1 more sig (in theory) than MAX_BLOCK_SIGOPS, so it shouldnt be processing
1083 2012-09-24 15:39:32 <TD> ok cool
1084 2012-09-24 15:39:34 <BlueMatt> then there is one that (I thought was disabled) that has one less
1085 2012-09-24 15:39:35 <TD> the tool works
1086 2012-09-24 15:40:15 darkee has joined
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1088 2012-09-24 15:41:40 <TD> BlueMatt: another question .... in ChildMessage.adjustLength why is the parent.adjustLength call using 0 as the newArraySize instead of passing through the parameter?
1089 2012-09-24 15:42:33 <BlueMatt> ah, thats it, addExpensiveBlocks is set in the comparison tool,but not in the regular test-cases by default
1090 2012-09-24 15:42:57 <BlueMatt> TD: because you would end up adding that extra byte twice, I believe?
1091 2012-09-24 15:43:13 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1092 2012-09-24 15:43:33 <BlueMatt> TD: give me about 30 minutes and I nock out some of these comments (need to finish up some classwork real quick)
1093 2012-09-24 15:43:39 <TD> hmm.   adjustLength is incrementing the length of the child, and then you want to increment the parent size by the same amount, right
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1096 2012-09-24 15:44:57 <TD> BlueMatt: where is the repeated increment?
1097 2012-09-24 15:45:12 <TD> the parents length has to increase by exactly the same amount as the childs, right
1098 2012-09-24 15:45:23 <BlueMatt> (sorry, I wasnt looking at the code, you may be right)
1099 2012-09-24 15:46:51 <BlueMatt> TD: yea, you're probably right...Ill take a look and redo that lengh prefix code stuff later this week, it smells quite broken
1100 2012-09-24 15:47:04 <TD> the whole length caching thing is pretty questionable, tbh
1101 2012-09-24 15:47:18 <TD> it was written by shads when he was churning out a ton of code to make bitcoinj support high performance proxy servers
1102 2012-09-24 15:47:28 <BlueMatt> (too much test-driven development there...)
1103 2012-09-24 15:47:30 <TD> he went pretty deep with the micro optimizations
1104 2012-09-24 15:47:56 <TD> well it's ok that's why we have code review as well :)
1105 2012-09-24 15:49:19 <TD> inverting the subtraction doesn't change the pass/fail of the test
1106 2012-09-24 15:49:30 <TD> i suspect the calculated length is getting thrown away later, but i'll use the fixed code anyway
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1108 2012-09-24 15:53:19 <BlueMatt> TD: odd, because the test was failing until I added that commit...
1109 2012-09-24 15:53:47 <BlueMatt> anyway...it needs further analysis (or was the test failing only something like 1/3 of the time or something due to differences in sig length?)
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1111 2012-09-24 15:53:56 <TD> hmm
1112 2012-09-24 15:54:09 <TD> well i'm not denying the commit is required
1113 2012-09-24 15:54:23 <TD> just that it appears to contain bugs that make it do the wrong thing. unfortunately they may be of a form that cancel each other out or something weird like that
1114 2012-09-24 15:54:27 <TD> but yes, please do analyze further :)
1115 2012-09-24 15:54:38 <BlueMatt> yea, it does look very broken...
1116 2012-09-24 15:54:47 <BlueMatt> anyway, Ill redo that one entirely
1117 2012-09-24 15:55:06 <kjj_> gavinandresen: that worked
1118 2012-09-24 15:56:14 <TD> ok
1119 2012-09-24 15:56:19 <TD> then i'll wait
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1123 2012-09-24 16:01:34 <BlueMatt> TD: Im marking comments that I should follow up on and change something with TODO, fyi
1124 2012-09-24 16:01:56 <TD> ok
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1134 2012-09-24 16:14:49 <TD> something that was pointed out to me today - given we need full nodes in future, making bitcoin-qt have lots of cool graphs and bling about what it's doing would encourage people to leave it running
1135 2012-09-24 16:14:55 * jgarzik posts his evil landlord story on the off-topic Rental Investment thread, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112320.msg1216688#msg1216688
1136 2012-09-24 16:14:57 <TD> and make it explicit that by running the software you're contributing to the network
1137 2012-09-24 16:15:02 <jgarzik> TD: agreed
1138 2012-09-24 16:15:16 <TD> i think it's a good idea, though it could make the software seem more intimidating for regular users (temporarily)
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1140 2012-09-24 16:16:56 <BlueMatt> TD: absolutely! now who wants to implement it?
1141 2012-09-24 16:18:08 <TD> :)
1142 2012-09-24 16:18:19 <TD> just throwing it out there .... maybe diapolo or another gui hacker would find it fun
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1144 2012-09-24 16:19:35 <arij> what is the maximum the difficulty can increase
1145 2012-09-24 16:19:38 <arij> in one period
1146 2012-09-24 16:19:46 <arij> i forget how many blocks that was
1147 2012-09-24 16:20:01 <epscy> 2016
1148 2012-09-24 16:20:07 <arij> 2016 blocks
1149 2012-09-24 16:20:20 <fiesh_> with having bitcoind/qt-bitcoin run constantly -- I found it quite annoying that it is basically impossible to link it statically, making running it chrooted much more work
1150 2012-09-24 16:20:21 <arij> so what is the maximum the diff can increase ?
1151 2012-09-24 16:20:35 <arij> in a 2016 block interval
1152 2012-09-24 16:20:40 <arij> unlimited?
1153 2012-09-24 16:20:50 <arij> or is it a maximum % ?
1154 2012-09-24 16:21:05 <fiesh_> (bitcoind that is of course, without the qt)
1155 2012-09-24 16:21:33 <BlueMatt> arij: there is a limit iirc, but I have no clue what it is now...
1156 2012-09-24 16:21:33 <epscy> isn't one of them unbounded (increase or descrease), can't remember which though
1157 2012-09-24 16:21:36 <BlueMatt> arij: its some %
1158 2012-09-24 16:21:41 <arij> i see
1159 2012-09-24 16:21:52 <BlueMatt> epscy: I thought both, but Im fuzzy on the details...
1160 2012-09-24 16:21:54 <arij> but i need to find out
1161 2012-09-24 16:22:07 <epscy> ask gmaxwell
1162 2012-09-24 16:22:17 <epscy> gmaxwell: we neeeeeed you
1163 2012-09-24 16:22:21 <BlueMatt> fiesh_: huh? we do the releases statically, see what we have for the release build args...
1164 2012-09-24 16:22:32 <arij> we neeeeeeeeeed you
1165 2012-09-24 16:22:37 <BlueMatt> fiesh_: like STATIC=1 or RELEASE=1 or something like that should work?
1166 2012-09-24 16:22:39 <arij> :)
1167 2012-09-24 16:22:40 <fiesh_> BlueMatt: really?  I didn't realize, thanks, will take a look
1168 2012-09-24 16:22:43 <BlueMatt> arij: search the wiki?
1169 2012-09-24 16:22:51 <BlueMatt> arij: or search main.cpp ;)
1170 2012-09-24 16:22:59 <fiesh_> BlueMatt: oh, heh, then my bad, never mind ;)
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1173 2012-09-24 16:23:28 <arij> no i need some one to answer it here
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1175 2012-09-24 16:23:49 <epscy> careful that you don't stare into statoshis code too long, because at the same time he stares back at you
1176 2012-09-24 16:24:07 <BlueMatt> arij: "Im incapable of searching for the answer myself" doesnt inspire people to search for the answer for you ;)
1177 2012-09-24 16:24:35 <arij> i dont need some one to search
1178 2012-09-24 16:24:39 <arij> just some one who knows the answer
1179 2012-09-24 16:24:43 <arij> to answer
1180 2012-09-24 16:24:53 <arij> :)
1181 2012-09-24 16:24:55 <arij> i can wait
1182 2012-09-24 16:25:11 <epscy> the wiki needs a FAQ interface
1183 2012-09-24 16:25:16 optimator has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1184 2012-09-24 16:25:19 <epscy> this stuff comes up too often
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1187 2012-09-24 16:28:48 <JyZyXEL> how do you calculate how much a certain hash rate will increase difficulty in a certain timeframe?
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1189 2012-09-24 16:30:47 <devrandom> hey BlueMatt
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1191 2012-09-24 16:34:48 <weex> JyZyXEL: hashrates are just estimates based on difficulty and avg time to find a block
1192 2012-09-24 16:34:57 <weex> so you would do it on a relative basis
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1197 2012-09-24 16:41:50 <TD> hey devrandom
1198 2012-09-24 16:42:02 <JyZyXEL> like if 50TH/s of hashing power was added today, what would the difficulty be in a month?
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1200 2012-09-24 16:42:19 <JyZyXEL> that kind of calculation
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1202 2012-09-24 16:42:31 <BlueMatt> hey devrandom
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1207 2012-09-24 16:47:19 <devrandom> hey TD, congrats on 0.6
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1210 2012-09-24 16:47:39 <TD> thanks. it took long enough, i didn't have much coding time lately
1211 2012-09-24 16:47:41 <TD> well also it was summer :-)
1212 2012-09-24 16:47:55 <TD> think you'll get any time for bcj in the next few months?
1213 2012-09-24 16:50:10 <helo> JyZyXEL: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
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1224 2012-09-24 16:56:07 <JyZyXEL> oh so i can directly take my target hashrate and see what the difficulty would adjust to with that rate?
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1227 2012-09-24 16:59:47 <gavinandresen> Anybody know off the top of their heads what will get sent to the bitcoin process if I create a link that is:  <a href="bitcoin:...address..?message=Message+With%20Spaces">
1228 2012-09-24 17:00:33 <gavinandresen> Or, in other words, when browsers pass off URLs to the bitcoin: handler do they do any url decoding first?
1229 2012-09-24 17:01:04 <JyZyXEL> 0xffff * 2**208
1230 2012-09-24 17:01:11 <JyZyXEL> what operation is "**"
1231 2012-09-24 17:01:23 <gavinandresen> JyZyXEL: exponentiation
1232 2012-09-24 17:01:38 <JyZyXEL> you mean 2^208?
1233 2012-09-24 17:01:42 <gavinandresen> yeah
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1235 2012-09-24 17:02:59 <JyZyXEL> 22012.4941572 * 2^32 / 600  = 157571570847.608471552
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1241 2012-09-24 17:14:58 <JyZyXEL> so for the current difficulty (28641400.507811) to double (57282801.015622) a hashrate of: 57282801.015622 * 2^32 / 600 would be needed?
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1243 2012-09-24 17:15:27 <JyZyXEL> that would be ~410TH/s
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1248 2012-09-24 17:19:04 <gmaxwell> Your difficulty figure is wrong.
1249 2012-09-24 17:19:41 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: current difficulty is 2864140.50781097
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1251 2012-09-24 17:20:26 <JyZyXEL> otherwise it wasn't completely wrong?
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1254 2012-09-24 17:21:15 <JyZyXEL> im trying to calculate myself out of the idea of wasting 1000EUR for the asic haha :p
1255 2012-09-24 17:22:56 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: the current difficulty has nothing to do with the difficulty after the existance of asic mining products.
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1260 2012-09-24 17:23:58 <JyZyXEL> i just used it as an example
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1284 2012-09-24 17:50:22 <jgarzik> wonder if we store bitcoind uptime (node start time) anywhere?
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1288 2012-09-24 18:02:48 <amiller> jgarzik, the 'stuff absolutely everything in a leveldb' approach seems to degrade around 190k for me, how far did you get?
1289 2012-09-24 18:03:32 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: doesn't the OS keep track of process start time?
1290 2012-09-24 18:03:49 <jgarzik> amiller: did you add in the checkpoint change?
1291 2012-09-24 18:04:06 <amiller> jgarzik, yeah, even with checkpoints i didn't get past 193k or so overnight
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1294 2012-09-24 18:05:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it does on Linux... damned if I recall the syscall to get it ATM
1295 2012-09-24 18:05:34 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: quick google turns up http://linuxcommando.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-to-get-process-start-date-and-time.html
1296 2012-09-24 18:06:13 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yeah read the last line of that blog post ;p
1297 2012-09-24 18:06:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I doubt we want bitcoin processing "ps" output or /proc
1298 2012-09-24 18:06:53 <gavinandresen> agreed.  I'd vote to leave the feature out entirely, and let people who want to know read ps or /proc output....
1299 2012-09-24 18:07:16 <gavinandresen> (or do you need to know the process start time for some internal reason?)
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1305 2012-09-24 18:15:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Just updated mempool pull request to reference it...  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1833
1306 2012-09-24 18:15:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: we already query and log node start time
1307 2012-09-24 18:15:51 <jgarzik> amiller: so
1308 2012-09-24 18:16:06 <jgarzik> amiller: I got impatient and turned off sig checking.  I was CPU-bound, not disk bound, with GDBM ;p
1309 2012-09-24 18:16:19 <jgarzik> amiller: turned sig checking back on for last 2000 blocks
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1313 2012-09-24 18:22:50 <amiller> jgarzik, right now i'm trying out the flat file for blockdata and everything else in the leveldb
1314 2012-09-24 18:23:45 <jgarzik> amiller: certainly will help.  the only thing we really _need_ a database for is the tx index
1315 2012-09-24 18:23:56 <jgarzik> amiller: everything else could be flat file
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1485 2012-09-24 19:37:15 <jgarzik_> Claimed email from SEC to various parties, RE BS&T: http://pastebin.com/3ZXYMmwr, from thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112404.0
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1488 2012-09-24 19:39:22 <Hasimir> jgarzik_, the author of the email is listed on LinkedIn as in the SEC's enforcement division
1489 2012-09-24 19:39:34 <kjj_> looks legit.  give me a minute to grab some popcorn
1490 2012-09-24 19:39:41 mtve has joined
1491 2012-09-24 19:40:02 <Hasimir> the IP in the headers matches the SEC's servers too
1492 2012-09-24 19:40:04 lggr has joined
1493 2012-09-24 19:40:21 <kjj_> meh.  easy to fake
1494 2012-09-24 19:40:45 <kjj_> not saying the emails aren't real, but slapping in two bits of public data doesn't make them real either
1495 2012-09-24 19:41:37 <jgarzik_> indeed
1496 2012-09-24 19:41:42 <phungus> it doesn't sound unreasonable
1497 2012-09-24 19:41:52 <phungus> the SEC is charged with investigating securities law violations
1498 2012-09-24 19:41:53 <Hasimir> well, I guess we'll know soon enough
1499 2012-09-24 19:43:33 <jgarzik_> another thread, "Got off the phone with the Guy from the S.E.C", https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112438.0
1500 2012-09-24 19:44:07 <kjj_> no wonder no one else could get through, that dude was hogging it
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1502 2012-09-24 19:45:24 <kjj_> ooh.  the blowback might hit GLBSE too, according to the unsubstantiated rumor
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1505 2012-09-24 19:47:50 <_dr> what's that bit about butterfly labs supposed to be?
1506 2012-09-24 19:47:55 <Hasimir> it's all very interesting
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1508 2012-09-24 19:48:34 <kjj_> my guess on the BFL part was summed up quite well by this comment:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112438.msg1217173#msg1217173
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1510 2012-09-24 19:51:21 <kjj_> wow.  today was quite exciting on As the Bitcoin Turns.
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1517 2012-09-24 19:54:32 <helo> the next episode should be even better
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1531 2012-09-24 20:03:48 <sebicas> Yes, here is a copy of the email I received today from the SEC http://pastie.org/4791945
1532 2012-09-24 20:04:05 <sebicas> I think they got my email from the GPG Signature in Bitcoin OTC
1533 2012-09-24 20:04:35 lggr has joined
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1536 2012-09-24 20:10:55 <jgarzik_> TD, amiller: pybond P2P+DHT network should go live "in a few days"
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1538 2012-09-24 20:11:16 <jgarzik_> TD: it should be applicable to any smart property tracked by a coin, not just bonds
1539 2012-09-24 20:11:36 <TD> nice!
1540 2012-09-24 20:11:44 <TD> looking forward to it
1541 2012-09-24 20:11:45 <kjj_> no more stock exchanges then?
1542 2012-09-24 20:11:50 <jeremias> hmm I keep getting "Fatal error, run database recovery"
1543 2012-09-24 20:12:02 <jeremias> (is this wrong channel to ask)
1544 2012-09-24 20:12:14 <jeremias> deleted everything except wallet.dat and started again
1545 2012-09-24 20:12:16 <jeremias> still get it
1546 2012-09-24 20:12:18 <jeremias> 0.7.0
1547 2012-09-24 20:12:27 usagi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1548 2012-09-24 20:12:38 <kjj_> when you closed down your previous version, did you detach?
1549 2012-09-24 20:12:48 <jeremias> hmm not sure
1550 2012-09-24 20:12:51 <jeremias> probably not
1551 2012-09-24 20:12:57 <jeremias> probably closed abruptly
1552 2012-09-24 20:13:03 <kjj_> do you still have the old version around?
1553 2012-09-24 20:13:12 <jeremias> hmm yep
1554 2012-09-24 20:13:30 <kjj_> I *think* the fastest recovery will be to add detachdb=1 to your bitcoin.conf, start the old version, stop it, wait for it to end fully
1555 2012-09-24 20:13:36 <kjj_> and then do the upgrade
1556 2012-09-24 20:14:12 <jeremias> hmm
1557 2012-09-24 20:14:19 <jeremias> get the database error with old version as well
1558 2012-09-24 20:14:31 <kjj_> hmm.  take a look in your db.log file
1559 2012-09-24 20:14:49 <jeremias> hmm ok
1560 2012-09-24 20:14:52 <jeremias> unsupported version
1561 2012-09-24 20:14:53 <kjj_> and your debug.log
1562 2012-09-24 20:15:05 <jeremias> ok now I'll delete the data again, then restart
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1564 2012-09-24 20:15:17 <kjj_> hang on, what exactly are you deleting?
1565 2012-09-24 20:15:41 <jeremias> everything except wallet.dat and bitcoin.conf
1566 2012-09-24 20:15:47 <kjj_> as in, are you including the log.* files in the database/ directory?
1567 2012-09-24 20:16:03 <jeremias> it complains about the log files, should I delete only them?
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1569 2012-09-24 20:16:27 <jeremias> the problem was probably because I had erronously started very old bitcoind, the one supplied by ubuntu
1570 2012-09-24 20:16:33 <jeremias> 0.3 or something
1571 2012-09-24 20:16:37 <kjj_> well, if you've already nuked things, do them all
1572 2012-09-24 20:17:03 <kjj_> not your wallet.dat, of course.  keep that one, and make a backup copy or two
1573 2012-09-24 20:17:59 <jeremias> yeah, I have backups as well, but I'll try recovering this now
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1579 2012-09-24 20:19:43 <jeremias> hmm still not working with any of the versions
1580 2012-09-24 20:19:48 <jeremias> shit
1581 2012-09-24 20:19:55 <jeremias> maybe I'll try digging the backup
1582 2012-09-24 20:21:01 <kjj_> what version is your wallet from?  is that from the old 0.3 version?
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1589 2012-09-24 20:21:12 <jeremias> I upgraded from 0.6.3
1590 2012-09-24 20:21:20 <jeremias> but I think I accidentally started 0.3
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1594 2012-09-24 20:21:52 <kjj_> ok, yeah.  toss a fresh copy of the backup in there, make sure everything else except wallet.dat and bitcoin.conf are gone, then try starting 0.7.0
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1597 2012-09-24 20:22:41 <jeremias> and another sad thing, no backup
1598 2012-09-24 20:22:45 <jeremias> because it was dropbox
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1600 2012-09-24 20:22:56 <kjj_> doh!
1601 2012-09-24 20:22:59 <jeremias> truecrypt + dropbox
1602 2012-09-24 20:23:09 <kjj_> ok, you still have your current file though, right?
1603 2012-09-24 20:23:13 <jeremias> yeah
1604 2012-09-24 20:23:20 <jeremias> but bitcoind doesn't start with it
1605 2012-09-24 20:23:26 <kjj_> had you set a password on it?
1606 2012-09-24 20:23:32 <jeremias> no
1607 2012-09-24 20:23:33 <kjj_> (encrypted your wallet)
1608 2012-09-24 20:23:39 <jeremias> unencrypted on truecrypt
1609 2012-09-24 20:23:51 <jeremias> my method was that I only opened it when I needed it
1610 2012-09-24 20:23:52 <kjj_> ok, go get pywallet
1611 2012-09-24 20:24:12 <kjj_> use pywallet to dump your keys out
1612 2012-09-24 20:24:18 <jeremias> ok
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1614 2012-09-24 20:24:39 <kjj_> make a copy of that file, damaged or not
1615 2012-09-24 20:26:40 <jeremias> seemed to output the keys without problems
1616 2012-09-24 20:27:22 <kjj_> ok, now what you are going to do is double check that you have a copy of that file somewhere else, then delete everything from your bitcoin directory except for the bitcoin.conf file, start 0.7.0 and let it catch up
1617 2012-09-24 20:27:31 <kjj_> then import your keys using the importprivkey RPC command
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1619 2012-09-24 20:27:48 <kjj_> or maybe there is a GUI way to do that last step, I don't use the GUI, so I have no idea
1620 2012-09-24 20:28:04 <kjj_> importing the keys will take a long time, but hopefully you'll end up with all of your coins back
1621 2012-09-24 20:28:11 <jeremias> I don't use GUI as well
1622 2012-09-24 20:28:14 <jeremias> yeah...
1623 2012-09-24 20:28:26 <jeremias> thanks for the help
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1850 2012-09-24 22:19:21 <eian> jgarzik, do you have the slides up for your talk from the bitcoin conference?
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1855 2012-09-24 22:20:17 <jgarzik> eian: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/2012/]
1856 2012-09-24 22:20:19 <jgarzik> eian: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/2012/
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1860 2012-09-24 22:24:57 <eian> thanks :)
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1886 2012-09-24 22:46:07 <denisx> damn, my UpdateMerkleTree method does not work anymore with 0.7.0
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1899 2012-09-24 22:52:33 <sipa_> denisx: what changed?
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1901 2012-09-24 22:53:00 <denisx> sipa_: I don't know
1902 2012-09-24 22:53:23 <denisx> I used it since 0.3.x up to 0.6.3
1903 2012-09-24 22:53:40 <denisx> but something must be different
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1921 2012-09-24 23:11:12 <denisx> for every ppc command a thread is started and exited?
1922 2012-09-24 23:11:16 <denisx> isnt that expensive?
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1932 2012-09-24 23:24:51 <denisx> sipa_: I think I know what the problem is
1933 2012-09-24 23:25:15 <denisx> bitcoind does not update the merkletree anymore at the start or maybe for a new block
1934 2012-09-24 23:25:46 <denisx> since my code only updates the merkletree that obviuosly cannot work on an empty merkletree
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1937 2012-09-24 23:26:12 <sipa_> iirc there was some optimization related to hashes being calculated twice
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