1 2012-09-26 00:01:52 <Luke-Jr> baffled__: the -detachdb option is important
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   3 2012-09-26 00:02:53 <baffled__> Luke-Jr: Thanks I restarted it with that option, I'm just trying to figure out what the signal option is for terminate.
   4 2012-09-26 00:03:04 <Luke-Jr> baffled__: default is fine
   5 2012-09-26 00:03:15 <Luke-Jr> baffled__: then just wait patiently, as it takes longer to shutdown with -detachdb
   6 2012-09-26 00:03:19 <baffled__> Luke-Jr: so just kill pid?
   7 2012-09-26 00:03:22 <Luke-Jr> yeah
   8 2012-09-26 00:03:42 <baffled__> Okay I am commensing to be patient! 'grin'
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  11 2012-09-26 00:06:04 <baffled__> I still got the dbenv::open: db_run_recovery error when trying to start the new client.
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  17 2012-09-26 00:13:00 <bcb> how do i confirm ssl connection to bitcoind server usins rcpssl=1 from a remote client
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  22 2012-09-26 00:22:13 <kjj_> BCBot2: a if you know how to run a packet sniffer, you can see the packets and confirm visually that they are not simple text
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  24 2012-09-26 00:22:49 <kjj_> shit.  missed him
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  27 2012-09-26 00:25:11 <baffled__> There's a db.log file which has some possibly useful lines in it:Build signature doesn't match environment program version 5.1 doesn'tmatch environment version 4.8 and something about not understanding version 17.
  28 2012-09-26 00:25:44 <kjj_> timestamped?
  29 2012-09-26 00:26:01 <baffled__> No if you're speaking to me.
  30 2012-09-26 00:26:12 * Luke-Jr wonders where 5.1 came into it
  31 2012-09-26 00:26:29 <baffled__> Should I clear the file and try a clean start?
  32 2012-09-26 00:27:43 <kjj_> does it say which database is the problem?
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  35 2012-09-26 00:30:55 <baffled__> it says unacceptable log file .bitcoin/database/log.0000021513: unsupported log version 17
  36 2012-09-26 00:32:31 <baffled__> Then it goes on to say invalid log file "same file" invalid argument.
  37 2012-09-26 00:32:50 <kjj_> ok, that's just strange
  38 2012-09-26 00:33:04 <kjj_> first, make another copy of your wallet.dat
  39 2012-09-26 00:33:22 <kjj_> second, delete the database/ directory and all of the log.* files inside it, then try starting again
  40 2012-09-26 00:33:40 <Luke-Jr> um
  41 2012-09-26 00:33:42 <kjj_> third, delete everything except the wallet.dat and bitcoin.conf files, and then start
  42 2012-09-26 00:33:42 <Luke-Jr> don't do that
  43 2012-09-26 00:33:46 <Luke-Jr> until you make a complete backup
  44 2012-09-26 00:33:53 <Luke-Jr> wallet.dat could very well be invalid without database/*
  45 2012-09-26 00:34:12 <kjj_> seriously?  ugh.
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  47 2012-09-26 00:34:46 <kjj_> we seem to be getting at least one of these a night now, and I haven't seen that yet anyway.  but better do like Luke says
  48 2012-09-26 00:34:52 <Luke-Jr> it's less likely due to how often the wallet is accessed, but it's possible
  49 2012-09-26 00:35:19 <baffled__> Okay, I'm rsyncing now.
  50 2012-09-26 00:35:24 <kjj_> replace my first step with "make a backup of everything"
  51 2012-09-26 00:37:31 <kjj_> anyhow, I'm late for beers.  see ya
  52 2012-09-26 00:37:49 <baffled__> Okay kjj_ thanks.
  53 2012-09-26 00:40:49 <baffled__> So Luke-Jr rm all the .dat files in .bitcoin? blk.000???.dat addr.dat etc?
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  55 2012-09-26 00:41:44 <Luke-Jr> baffled__: just be sure to backup everything before you delete anything
  56 2012-09-26 00:42:17 <baffled__> Luke-Jr: I did back it up just didn't want to rm more than strictly necessary.
  57 2012-09-26 00:43:45 <baffled__> Ah, I left the .dat files and just rm'd the database files and started it.  So far no blow-ups.
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  62 2012-09-26 00:46:55 <baffled__> getinfo looks pretty good!  Thank you Luke-Jr and sipa  and kjj_ !! woohoo!!
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  64 2012-09-26 00:47:22 <Luke-Jr> baffled__: I'd verify the last address you made works
  65 2012-09-26 00:47:30 <Luke-Jr> I don't know a good way to do that tho
  66 2012-09-26 00:49:10 <baffled__> Luke-Jr: hahahah, if you don't know I certainly don't. However, maybe I'll get an error if the p2pool can't transfer all my vast quantities of coins I mine! 'smirk'
  67 2012-09-26 00:50:06 <baffled__> At this rate I should make 10 btc by, oh, 2312.
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  70 2012-09-26 00:56:53 <baffled__> Okay, once again thank you very much folks, I'm out of here for the night!
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 183 2012-09-26 02:26:52 <jgarzik> Tiggr: fix your software
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 186 2012-09-26 02:28:49 <MrTiggr> aye
 187 2012-09-26 02:28:50 <MrTiggr> ikr
 188 2012-09-26 02:28:52 <MrTiggr> in it
 189 2012-09-26 02:28:54 <MrTiggr> *on
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 258 2012-09-26 05:26:59 <Varan> Is it possible for a government to spam the bitcoin network with transactions? Is this a doable DOS attack? If not ... why?
 259 2012-09-26 05:27:45 <doublec> Varan: it would cost money via transaction fees
 260 2012-09-26 05:27:53 MC-Eeepc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 261 2012-09-26 05:28:30 <Varan> But if you have one output you send from address to address ... you dont have to pay a fee
 262 2012-09-26 05:28:32 <Varan> right?
 263 2012-09-26 05:29:29 <midnightmagic> Varan: assuming some miner is willing to include that one lonely tx in the next block without a fee for some reason..
 264 2012-09-26 05:30:05 RainbowDashh has joined
 265 2012-09-26 05:30:49 <Varan> yeah but there are some that do that right now
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 296 2012-09-26 06:39:38 <bonks> So 12 hours later I have just a few hundred more blocks to go...
 297 2012-09-26 06:39:39 <bonks> I copied my backed up blk*.dat files to %appdata%/Bitcoin directory
 298 2012-09-26 06:40:13 <bonks> And then loaded the qt client v0.7 and it appended started from block 0 and appended to my backups, what did I miss?
 299 2012-09-26 06:40:21 lggr has joined
 300 2012-09-26 06:41:07 <Luke-Jr> bonks: blk*.dat is only ever appended
 301 2012-09-26 06:41:56 <bonks> Ok so how do people normally download those files elsewhere and continue from its last block?
 302 2012-09-26 06:42:16 <bonks> I've always done it from scratch as recommended but this time it was my own taht I backed up while reinstalling
 303 2012-09-26 06:42:46 <Luke-Jr> -loadblock=foo.dat
 304 2012-09-26 06:43:02 <Luke-Jr> where foo.dat isn't blk*.dat
 305 2012-09-26 06:45:12 <bonks> I see. Now I know, thank you :P
 306 2012-09-26 06:46:10 <bonks> "Import blocks from external blk000?.dat file"
 307 2012-09-26 06:46:22 <bonks> So since there are 2 files, do I use the loadblock option twice?
 308 2012-09-26 06:46:31 <bonks> for each file
 309 2012-09-26 06:46:32 <Luke-Jr> I think that would work.
 310 2012-09-26 06:46:38 <Luke-Jr> if not, do one, then do the other
 311 2012-09-26 06:46:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 312 2012-09-26 06:47:12 <bonks> k
 313 2012-09-26 06:50:15 <bonks> Something to note, the TML bitstream is available for the X6500 (beta) and I tested it earlier today and got 475MH/s on the one board I was testing
 314 2012-09-26 06:50:25 <bonks> Wrong channel
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 319 2012-09-26 07:05:10 <Luke-Jr> lol
 320 2012-09-26 07:05:18 <Varan> Have there been any developments with storing unconfirmed tx outputs in the block chain? I could only find: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101734.0
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 323 2012-09-26 07:05:29 <Varan> has there been any more progress? A BIP?
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 333 2012-09-26 07:15:29 <weex> Varan: if it's in the block chain it's confirmed, perhaps you mean some of the m in m-of-n transasctions?
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 335 2012-09-26 07:16:33 <Varan> Ow sorry ... I mean unspend
 336 2012-09-26 07:16:49 <Varan> like discussed in the forum topic
 337 2012-09-26 07:17:09 <weex> taking a look...
 338 2012-09-26 07:18:16 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 340 2012-09-26 07:20:10 <weex> ahh, perhaps you mean to know if amiller has implemented much of that
 341 2012-09-26 07:21:47 boupitch has joined
 342 2012-09-26 07:22:16 <weex> Varan: is this just out of curiosity or is there an application that you're trying to serve?
 343 2012-09-26 07:22:59 gjs278 has joined
 344 2012-09-26 07:23:03 <Varan> No ... this is juts out of general curiosity
 345 2012-09-26 07:24:11 <Varan> and amiller has a github page were it is implemented ... I would like to know if there has been any further work done ... to get this in the main client
 346 2012-09-26 07:24:22 <Varan> Or if it has been rejected or something
 347 2012-09-26 07:24:35 <weex> from what i can gather that proposal is about being able to reduce the need for storage of the blockchain to send valid transactions
 348 2012-09-26 07:24:53 <Varan> yes
 349 2012-09-26 07:24:58 <weex> so i think the most likely line of progress is ultraprune
 350 2012-09-26 07:25:01 <Varan> to verify transactions
 351 2012-09-26 07:25:20 <Varan> do you have a link for this?
 352 2012-09-26 07:25:27 <weex> just from what i've been watching, lemme see
 353 2012-09-26 07:26:12 <weex> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1677
 354 2012-09-26 07:26:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 355 2012-09-26 07:26:35 <Varan> ah oke
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 358 2012-09-26 07:28:06 <Varan> I would have expected that there would be an BIP for this ... because I guess he has to add a extra field to the block header right?
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 361 2012-09-26 07:28:40 <weex> i don't think so
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 364 2012-09-26 07:29:20 <weex> the merkle tree means spent txouts can be dropped
 365 2012-09-26 07:29:24 <Varan> Hmm oke
 366 2012-09-26 07:29:34 <Varan> what do you mean dropped?
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 368 2012-09-26 07:30:57 <weex> well the full details of those transactions need not be stored because their inclusion in the block chain means they had to be valid when they were included
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 373 2012-09-26 07:34:23 <_dr> the original paper explains it pretty well imho
 374 2012-09-26 07:35:05 <weex> ^--- better than me trying to re-explain what i think is going on
 375 2012-09-26 07:36:22 <weex> amiller went a bit further than anything in the paper so i too would like to see what come out of that
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 380 2012-09-26 07:38:32 <_dr> spent txns can be dropped because they won't be refereced by future tnxs, since all coins will come from unspent txns
 381 2012-09-26 07:38:47 <_dr> the merkle root/branch part is only for spv i think
 382 2012-09-26 07:40:00 <_dr> also, only spv clients drop spent txns, the reference client keeps them for various reasons (such as bootstrapping other nodes)
 383 2012-09-26 07:40:56 <_dr> (I think :)
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 385 2012-09-26 07:43:22 <Varan> spv?
 386 2012-09-26 07:43:59 <_dr> simple payment verification. and i think that none of that has anything to do with ultraprune (except the 'prune')
 387 2012-09-26 07:44:20 <Varan> Hmm oke
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 389 2012-09-26 07:45:18 <Varan> But if you bootstrap the client you still have to download and verify all the transactions right?
 390 2012-09-26 07:45:36 <Varan> because you dont know the unspend tx outputs yet
 391 2012-09-26 07:45:45 <Varan> (using ultraprune)
 392 2012-09-26 07:48:21 <_dr> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91954
 393 2012-09-26 07:48:43 <_dr> Varan: this one is a little bit more verbose than the text on github
 394 2012-09-26 07:48:58 <Varan> yeah I read that
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 396 2012-09-26 07:50:12 <_dr> it says it keeps the entire blocks, so it will still download the blockchain to bootstrap
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 398 2012-09-26 07:51:22 <weex> Varan: if you start downloading history from the beginning, you might want all transactions to get a clear snapshot of the blockchain up to the point you've downloaded
 399 2012-09-26 07:51:42 <weex> newer ideas are to start with the latest n blocks and backfill
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 401 2012-09-26 07:52:42 <weex> but hopefully be able to validate unconfirmed transactions asap
 402 2012-09-26 07:53:16 <weex> i'm not sure if any code does that at this point though
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 405 2012-09-26 07:58:17 <_dr> what i don't understand about the ultraprune post is: 'It simply means you cannot rescan/reorg/server those old blocks, but once those are deep enough (say a few thousand blocks), we can tolerate that.'
 406 2012-09-26 07:59:02 <_dr> it's no longer a full node, right? or is there a way to keep the integrity of the network while discarding the older parts of the blockchain forever
 407 2012-09-26 07:59:33 <Varan> Not using this patch I think
 408 2012-09-26 07:59:50 <Varan> If all nodes delete the old blocks noone can bootstrap anymore
 409 2012-09-26 08:00:32 <_dr> that's what i'm not 100% sure about
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 411 2012-09-26 08:01:09 <Varan> seems logical ... but then I dont understand how they can put this in the official bitcoin client
 412 2012-09-26 08:01:18 <Varan> who is going to serve the old blocks then?
 413 2012-09-26 08:02:03 <weex> it would be a switch probably so default would be to keep all blocks
 414 2012-09-26 08:02:13 <Varan> hmm yeah oke
 415 2012-09-26 08:02:31 <weex> i for one would like to run a full node or nodes until it's really not making sense
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 417 2012-09-26 08:02:51 <Varan> But if you would have a merkle tree of all unspend tx outputs in each block noone would have to store the old blocks right?
 418 2012-09-26 08:03:23 <weex> sounds wasteful of bandwidth
 419 2012-09-26 08:03:37 <weex> if mostly the same info is downloaded in each block
 420 2012-09-26 08:03:46 <_dr> yeah, as i understood it the storage for all unspent tx is 70mb atm
 421 2012-09-26 08:03:50 <_dr> and it'll grow!
 422 2012-09-26 08:04:00 <Varan> weex, Hmm I think they had some clever sugestion for that
 423 2012-09-26 08:04:47 <Varan> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101734.0
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 425 2012-09-26 08:06:10 <weex> right so that needs another hash to be put in the block header
 426 2012-09-26 08:06:19 Perlboy has joined
 427 2012-09-26 08:06:28 <weex> it would be what's called a hard forking change
 428 2012-09-26 08:07:03 <weex> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fork_Wishlist
 429 2012-09-26 08:07:11 <Varan> yeah I know
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 431 2012-09-26 08:08:56 <amiller> i'm looking into practical ways of storing/indexing the merkle tree utxo now
 432 2012-09-26 08:09:13 <amiller> i'm starting just by trying to make normal block handling more efficient
 433 2012-09-26 08:10:05 <amiller> for example pynode goes much faster now that there's a leveldb (a balanced tree) to just to mostly hold utxo indexes, and a disk that's fast to append to
 434 2012-09-26 08:10:12 <amiller> by disk i mean flat file
 435 2012-09-26 08:11:18 <weex> i haven't run pynode for a bit but will have to check it out again
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 437 2012-09-26 08:14:21 <amiller> the disk and the leveldb are two fairly different datastructures, but you can basically plug'n'play different instances
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 439 2012-09-26 08:15:56 <weex> pynode still needs a node to connect to right?
 440 2012-09-26 08:16:24 <amiller> it does but i think jgarzik is working rapidly towards having it ready to work for itself
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 442 2012-09-26 08:20:03 <sipa> weex, Varan: what do you need to know about ultraprune?
 443 2012-09-26 08:21:24 <weex> i'm good but if i think of anything, i'll be back
 444 2012-09-26 08:21:34 <weex> Varan brought it up :)
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 446 2012-09-26 08:22:58 <sipa> once actual pruning is implemented, someone who runs it will not be a full node anymore
 447 2012-09-26 08:23:15 <sipa> but still a fully validating node
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 449 2012-09-26 08:23:43 <sipa> those who do store everything will become archive nodes
 450 2012-09-26 08:23:44 <_dr> is there a way to run the network without full nodes?
 451 2012-09-26 08:23:51 <amiller> sipa, appending to coins.dat is very efficient
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 453 2012-09-26 08:23:58 <amiller> even if you're not a full node, i wonder if it's useful to log some of it
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 455 2012-09-26 08:24:41 <amiller> could you do something like save a snapshot of the utxo, and then blockchain data on top of it, so you could recover from those
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 457 2012-09-26 08:25:34 <sipa> leveldb does support snapshots
 458 2012-09-26 08:25:46 <amiller> i assume it takes a while to write one or it requires duplicating memory or something
 459 2012-09-26 08:25:46 <sipa> should look into that
 460 2012-09-26 08:25:53 <amiller> how long does it take to backup a utxo
 461 2012-09-26 08:26:19 <sipa> backup where?
 462 2012-09-26 08:27:04 <amiller> either to a different disk or to send it across a local network i suppose
 463 2012-09-26 08:27:23 <weex> would a pruned ultraprune node still need to download all the data to get fully sync'd?
 464 2012-09-26 08:27:51 <sipa> weex: to be zero-trust, yes
 465 2012-09-26 08:28:36 <Varan> sipa, If it is implemented in the bitcoin client will there be like a switch between arcive mode and pruned mode?
 466 2012-09-26 08:28:39 <sipa> if it trustsanother node, it can bo
 467 2012-09-26 08:28:50 <sipa> Varan: yes
 468 2012-09-26 08:28:58 <Varan> And the default will be archive?
 469 2012-09-26 08:29:04 <sipa> yes
 470 2012-09-26 08:29:07 <Varan> oke nice
 471 2012-09-26 08:29:37 <sipa> but imho, far from everyone needs to be an archive
 472 2012-09-26 08:29:54 <_dr> sipa: couldn't it just download the block header data and utxo and verify those like a spv client?
 473 2012-09-26 08:30:34 <Varan> _dr, utxo cannot be trusted currectly unless you compute it yourself
 474 2012-09-26 08:30:57 <sipa> _dr: if the merkle root of the utxo set is committed to by the coinbase, yes
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 476 2012-09-26 08:31:19 <sipa> but that still requires spv trust and not zero trust
 477 2012-09-26 08:31:42 <amiller> backups become very efficient though
 478 2012-09-26 08:32:01 <Varan> So if it is in the blockheader it would be zero trust right?
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 480 2012-09-26 08:32:21 <sipa> no, then it is spv trust
 481 2012-09-26 08:32:55 <sipa> (spv trust = believing that the chain with the most work is valid)
 482 2012-09-26 08:33:20 <Varan> ah oke
 483 2012-09-26 08:33:31 <weex> then what's zero trust?
 484 2012-09-26 08:33:36 <sipa> the only way to bootstrap zero trust is by validating the entire history
 485 2012-09-26 08:33:45 <amiller> spv trust should include a parameter, which is the last block you know to be completely valid, like spv(work)
 486 2012-09-26 08:33:59 <amiller> spv(0) means you're bootstrapping from the very beginning and have to validate the entire history in order to reach zero trust
 487 2012-09-26 08:34:28 <sipa> weex: not making any assumption about the data you receive from others
 488 2012-09-26 08:34:52 <sipa> bitcoind right now is *almost* zero trust
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 491 2012-09-26 08:35:12 <amiller> svp(-100) would mean you're 100 blocks behind, you don't need to revalidate blocks past that point, and if you can restore a utxo set at that point, you can just process the remaining 100 blocks
 492 2012-09-26 08:35:15 <_dr> almost because you can never know if the blockchain you download is the real thing?
 493 2012-09-26 08:36:05 <Varan> No because you need to know the genesis block and some bootstrap ip addresses
 494 2012-09-26 08:36:12 <sipa> no, because of checkpoints hardcoded in the client
 495 2012-09-26 08:36:23 <weex> so amiller your proposal was to include a hash of the utxo in each block?
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 497 2012-09-26 08:36:56 <amiller> weex, it's an old idea, i looked up a way of doing it using redblack trees
 498 2012-09-26 08:37:06 <_dr> hm, there should really be much more documentation on stuff like that. i mean, the wiki is great for getting started, but there's a lot missing there
 499 2012-09-26 08:38:59 <weex> _dr: agree, can't find much about this trust idea there
 500 2012-09-26 08:39:15 <weex> but one can always come here and ask too
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 523 2012-09-26 09:03:44 <TD> sipa: leveldb snapshots are fast
 524 2012-09-26 09:03:52 <TD> sipa: it basically just controls the sequence number used for compaction
 525 2012-09-26 09:03:53 <TD> (iirc)
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 537 2012-09-26 09:19:59 <sipa> TD: but they're not persistent, afaics
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 579 2012-09-26 10:37:04 <TD> sipa: that could be the case, yes
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 581 2012-09-26 10:39:33 <gmaxwell> Doesn't look like anyone really responded to this:
 582 2012-09-26 10:39:35 <gmaxwell> 22:20 < Varan> Is it possible for a government to spam the bitcoin network with transactions? Is this a doable DOS attack? If not ... why?
 583 2012-09-26 10:40:14 <gmaxwell> **sigh** must everyone that shows up to bitcoin pick 'goverment' as their boogeyman?  Bored 12 year olds are usually a far more likely to DOS attack. :P
 584 2012-09-26 10:40:23 TD_ has joined
 585 2012-09-26 10:41:27 <epscy> bored 12 year olds don't usually have the same resources as a government
 586 2012-09-26 10:41:29 lggr has joined
 587 2012-09-26 10:41:29 <gmaxwell> The system is resistant to dos attacks because you have to burn a lot of coin days to get relayed for free; otherwise you have to include fees. If someone really wealthy started saturating the network by moving enormous coindays people could always turn up that requirement.
 588 2012-09-26 10:42:17 <gmaxwell> 22:21 < Varan> But if you have one output you send from address to address ... you dont have to pay a fee
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 591 2012-09-26 10:42:38 <gmaxwell> And no, the anti-dos fee rules are specficially setup to catch rapid recycling of coins.
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 605 2012-09-26 10:53:48 <Varan> gmaxwell, Oke nice ...
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 608 2012-09-26 10:55:50 <Varan> But you dont need pay alot of transactions fees currently to double the amount of transactions right?
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 612 2012-09-26 10:58:46 <Varan> I mean the max number of transactions per day is about 50k currently you would only need 19 btc ... oke so still not trivial ... but for governments (or banks) this should not be a problem
 613 2012-09-26 10:59:22 <Varan> At what amount of transactions per day do you think the bitcoin network would have a problem?
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 618 2012-09-26 11:02:02 <gmaxwell> Varan: I don't know that there ever would be a problem directly from that— as then fee competition would take effect whenever the load became too high.. though we'd need to make client software improvements as the software doesn't currently help users set fees competitively... and other than mtgox codes (which are centeralized) there are any other mature secondary exchange methods for bitcoin.
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 621 2012-09-26 11:08:31 <Varan> Yeah oke ... but if a lot of load suddenly hits the network it could be out for an hour or a day ... before miners or developers respond
 622 2012-09-26 11:08:54 <Varan> but I guess that is indeed not so bad ... at least it can survive that way
 623 2012-09-26 11:10:11 <gmaxwell> Varan: fee competition is automatic. It wouldn't really be out, but transactions wouldn't go through for users who don't set their fees higher than the compeating load generator.
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 627 2012-09-26 11:12:06 <Varan> automatic how? I thought the client just ignores transactions that dont have 0.0001 fee and dont include them in blocks if the dont have 0.0005 fee ... how does it adjust this?
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 630 2012-09-26 11:13:08 <gmaxwell> Varan: no, other than a small amount of space reserved for free transactions miners preferentially include transactions based on fee/kb.
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 632 2012-09-26 11:13:45 <Varan> hmm oke
 633 2012-09-26 11:14:00 <sipa> and when blocks get filled up more, they require an increasing BTC/kb as fee
 634 2012-09-26 11:14:07 <Varan> yes that makes sense
 635 2012-09-26 11:14:46 <gmaxwell> Indeed, I'd forgotten about the ramping threshold.
 636 2012-09-26 11:14:51 <Varan> so all the txs with lower fees would go to the back of the queue if other people are paying more btc/kb
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 641 2012-09-26 11:18:58 <Varan> Thanks for explaining :)
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 655 2012-09-26 11:25:57 <sipa> jgarzik: currently my leveldb coins db is 117Mbyte, which is 40Mbyte keys, 60Mbyte values, and 17Mbyte leveldb overhead
 656 2012-09-26 11:28:07 <sipa> so around 25 bytes per unspent txout
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 760 2012-09-26 13:34:56 <grondilu> Addresses on the testnet can begin by any letter, right?
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 763 2012-09-26 13:36:04 <sipa> certainly not any letter
 764 2012-09-26 13:36:10 <sipa> but there are several, iirc
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 769 2012-09-26 13:39:30 <grondilu> Can someone give me the address for 5MdJ76GWf1RC6WppKeN8VfJ5fM4Z3LuZ82FjiKZtjJ22RrXHm1i for instance?
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 773 2012-09-26 13:46:09 <gavinandresen> testnet addresses begin with m or n, if I recall.  5 is a private key
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 775 2012-09-26 13:48:38 <grondilu> do you know who made https://bitcointools.appspot.com/?  This stuff seems cool but does not seem to work with testnet addresses.
 776 2012-09-26 13:49:27 <kjj_> gavinandresen: I tried to import it, it doesn't seem to be a valid WIF
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 778 2012-09-26 13:49:51 <sipa> grondilu: where did you get that?
 779 2012-09-26 13:49:59 <sipa> i can't import it either
 780 2012-09-26 13:50:37 <grondilu> sipa: you can't?  I guess my code is buggy then.
 781 2012-09-26 13:51:34 <sipa> wait... testnet WIF has a different version byte too
 782 2012-09-26 13:51:40 <sipa> the one you gave is for realnet
 783 2012-09-26 13:52:09 <sipa> first byte for testnet WIF is 239 instead of 128
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 785 2012-09-26 13:53:15 <grondilu> wasn't it 129?
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 787 2012-09-26 13:53:39 <sipa> no
 788 2012-09-26 13:53:43 <grondilu> anyway I need to review my code.
 789 2012-09-26 13:54:04 <lianj>       :address_version => "6f",
 790 2012-09-26 13:54:04 <lianj>       :p2sh_version => "c4"
 791 2012-09-26 13:54:07 <lianj> for testnet
 792 2012-09-26 13:54:41 <sipa> grondilu: 0/128 for realnet; 111/239 for testnet
 793 2012-09-26 13:55:07 <sipa> 0/5/128 vs 128/196/239
 794 2012-09-26 13:57:29 <grondilu> ok ok.  I'll study base58.h more seriously.
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 802 2012-09-26 14:08:21 <grondilu> what about this one?  933sbex9mybwDj6fgBCQALTtPjRRW7UUQvQDJj6QT2fTa9D7EoG
 803 2012-09-26 14:09:06 <sipa> good one
 804 2012-09-26 14:10:46 <grondilu> ok.  I get eMX6dT7v7gPSqVAfc74odb4MYVuNfqBiA as the address.   Doesn't begin by m or n.
 805 2012-09-26 14:12:35 <grondilu> I know.  I used 1 instead of 111 for the first byte.
 806 2012-09-26 14:13:38 <grondilu> I now get muXsQaEp1xemQWphMkk89RXbb2qfYgz6K7
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 816 2012-09-26 14:30:14 <Varan> When is the official client supposed to say it's up to date?
 817 2012-09-26 14:30:39 <Varan> Because it says this 6 blocks before it got the latest block for me...
 818 2012-09-26 14:30:59 <Varan> doesn't seem correct
 819 2012-09-26 14:31:09 <Varan> but maybe it doesn't know better
 820 2012-09-26 14:31:57 <Varan> I started syncing 3 hours ago so this could be part of the problem ... maybe it doesn't try to find out what the block height is while syncing
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 921 2012-09-26 16:57:24 <jgarzik> Another alt-coin, with vastly different metrics and incentives: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112676.0
 922 2012-09-26 16:57:52 <jgarzik> I'm not convinced it will actually work, but it is nice to see alternatives beyond "change genesis block, call it jgarzik-coin"
 923 2012-09-26 16:58:05 <jgarzik> amiller might like some of the features of the system
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 925 2012-09-26 16:58:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it sort of lost my interest at the top with "have advantages of Bitcoin but would not have its disadvantages" which is something of a red flag. :P
 926 2012-09-26 16:59:02 <kjj_> heh
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 928 2012-09-26 17:00:31 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: he clearly doesn't have a clue how bitcoin really works, or what problems it solves
 929 2012-09-26 17:00:42 <jgarzik> doesn't detract from being an interesting experiment on its own
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 931 2012-09-26 17:01:19 <gmaxwell> Right, thats usually what its a redflag for; not understanding the problem space. But indeed, it is really nice to see something that isn't "copy bitcoin, change genesis block, call it jgarzik-coin".
 932 2012-09-26 17:01:20 root2_ has joined
 933 2012-09-26 17:01:32 <kjj_> I'm having a really hard time following his train of thought.  my first impression is Open Transactions, without the experience that FT has learned over the years
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 935 2012-09-26 17:02:48 <jgarzik> with a dash of ripple-for-computers
 936 2012-09-26 17:02:58 <jgarzik> and the points being made about Sybil and botnets seem quite valid
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 938 2012-09-26 17:03:03 <kjj_> yeah, still reading.  might be closer to ripple
 939 2012-09-26 17:03:18 <gmaxwell> kjj_: I only read the initial post; but it simply doesn't explain it. The words 'quorum-based' fail to describe how the quorum would be determined.
 940 2012-09-26 17:04:13 <gmaxwell> (and if it's handled naively then it's hopelessly insecure; if not then it ends up with bitcoin like problems)
 941 2012-09-26 17:04:22 <jgarzik> but (even if the author doesn't realize it) there is a core problem I run into often -- sustaining a distributed service via member work contributions -- so I try to keep my mind open to new problems
 942 2012-09-26 17:04:35 <gmaxwell> The author of that message has made a number of other clueless posts IIRC.
 943 2012-09-26 17:04:39 <jgarzik> yes
 944 2012-09-26 17:05:23 <gmaxwell> oh boy. the following posts are... a laugh.
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 946 2012-09-26 17:06:52 <gmaxwell> I'm happy to see Etlase2 manning the cluebat. (Etlase2 has been the author of some impressive hocus pocus proposals before; so seeing the table turned is enjoyable)
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 955 2012-09-26 17:20:55 <bonks> Luke-Jr: I tried using -loadblock for each blk file and it only loaded from the first one
 956 2012-09-26 17:21:08 <bonks> How do I load from multiple files?
 957 2012-09-26 17:21:29 <kjj_> use it twice, I think
 958 2012-09-26 17:21:51 <bonks> That's what I did
 959 2012-09-26 17:21:55 <kjj_> or, if it finished indexing the first file's stuff, just start it again pointing to the second file
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 961 2012-09-26 17:22:24 <bonks> But it automatically starts to get new data and appends it to the current file
 962 2012-09-26 17:22:33 <kjj_> I'm sorta guessing here, I haven't read the code behind that option
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 965 2012-09-26 17:25:19 <gmaxwell> bonks: you should certantly not be pointing loadblocks at files bitcoin is going to write to.
 966 2012-09-26 17:25:32 <gmaxwell> I normally just cat togeater the blockfiles I'm going to feed to loadblocks.
 967 2012-09-26 17:26:02 <kjj_> gmaxwell: it treats the blocks read from the file just like it got them from the network, right?
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 969 2012-09-26 17:29:14 <bonks> gmaxwell: Oh I see, how do I do that?
 970 2012-09-26 17:30:01 <bonks> Btw where can I find the latest documentation on the commands? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list doesn't have the latest
 971 2012-09-26 17:30:08 <kjj_> linux?  cat file1 file2 > combined_file
 972 2012-09-26 17:30:44 <bonks> oh right, then bitcoind -daemon -loadblock combined_file
 973 2012-09-26 17:30:53 <bonks> Then let it create the blk0001.dat etc on its own?
 974 2012-09-26 17:31:00 <kjj_> yes
 975 2012-09-26 17:31:13 <bonks> Ok let me try that
 976 2012-09-26 17:31:25 <kjj_> that probably is the latest proper documentation.  are you volunteering to update it?  :)
 977 2012-09-26 17:31:41 <gmaxwell> kjj_: right.
 978 2012-09-26 17:32:42 <bonks> kjj_: Not really, I'm just starting to understand this :X
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 981 2012-09-26 17:35:17 <jgarzik> multiple -loadblocks on same command line does not work.
 982 2012-09-26 17:35:24 <jgarzik> cat'ing together works.
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 984 2012-09-26 17:35:54 <kjj_> you sure?  the LoadExternalBlockFile call is wrapped in a foreach block
 985 2012-09-26 17:36:08 <kjj_> and it uses mapMultiArgs, just like connect
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 990 2012-09-26 17:38:19 <jgarzik> kjj_: whoops, looks like you're right.
 991 2012-09-26 17:38:34 <jgarzik> BOOST_FOREACH(string strFile, mapMultiArgs["-loadblock"])
 992 2012-09-26 17:38:38 <kjj_> heh.  I have the advantage of not knowing anything, so I have to go look every time
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 994 2012-09-26 17:41:00 <bonks> So I could've used it multiple times on files bitcoind isn't writing to?
 995 2012-09-26 17:41:10 <bonks> Btw updated the wiki with loadblock command
 996 2012-09-26 17:45:05 <kjj_> sweet!
 997 2012-09-26 17:45:22 <jgarzik> we should guard that code, to make sure it does not import from $DataDir/blk????.dat
 998 2012-09-26 17:45:30 <jgarzik> that is a common mistake
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1001 2012-09-26 17:48:01 <bonks> oh geez, all this does is allow me to use a specific blockchain file and require no network?
1002 2012-09-26 17:48:11 <bonks> I wanted to avoid all the processing but it looks like it's still doing that
1003 2012-09-26 17:48:33 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
1004 2012-09-26 17:49:07 <bonks> Which makes sense for like offline wallets, but I just wanted to move everything over
1005 2012-09-26 17:49:38 <kjj_> oh, that's all you wanted to do?
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1008 2012-09-26 17:50:04 <bonks> Yep I moved servers
1009 2012-09-26 17:50:08 <kjj_> shut down, start again with -detachdb=1, let it get going, then shut down again
1010 2012-09-26 17:50:20 <kjj_> then copy the files over with scp or rsync.
1011 2012-09-26 17:50:37 <bonks> I copied the blk files over already
1012 2012-09-26 17:50:54 <kjj_> yes, but they don't work if you didn't detach on the last shutdown
1013 2012-09-26 17:51:08 <kjj_> and you need blkindex.dat to go with them, copied at the same time
1014 2012-09-26 17:51:55 <bonks> Ok I'll try that
1015 2012-09-26 17:54:34 <bonks> How do you normally check if it's "going"? getinfo can't connect to server yet so I don't know what it's doing
1016 2012-09-26 17:54:46 <kjj_> tail debug.log
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1018 2012-09-26 17:55:40 <kjj_> when you see it accepting transactions, CTxMemPool:accept ... blah blah ... (poolsz X) where X is increasing, it is running
1019 2012-09-26 17:56:02 <gavinandresen> tail -f  will keep showing you forever
1020 2012-09-26 17:56:58 <kjj_> heh.  I was using tail as a verb
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1022 2012-09-26 17:58:00 <bonks> Ok txns accepted. Is kill -9 pid a proper way to shutdown?
1023 2012-09-26 17:58:23 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1024 2012-09-26 17:59:12 <kjj_> use SIGTERM, or the stop RPC command
1025 2012-09-26 17:59:58 toffoo has quit ()
1026 2012-09-26 18:00:35 <jgarzik> or pull the power plug
1027 2012-09-26 18:01:05 <kjj_> heh.  he's trying to get a clean detach.  the 120 reset won't give him that
1028 2012-09-26 18:01:58 <bonks> Ok checking md5sum on first block so I don't need to redownload
1029 2012-09-26 18:03:07 <kjj_> shouldn't need to.  it probably hasn't been changed since July 9th
1030 2012-09-26 18:03:13 <kjj_> gotta run, back later
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1032 2012-09-26 18:03:58 <bonks> kjj_: Yeah just checking though, makes me feel better :P Downloading blk0002 and blkindex now. Thanks!
1033 2012-09-26 18:04:46 lggr has joined
1034 2012-09-26 18:05:16 <bonks> Once I have these 3 files in my new .bitcoind dir I can just start the daemon and this should work?
1035 2012-09-26 18:06:28 <maaku> are there invalid blocks in the testnet3-in-a-box blk0001.dat?
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1039 2012-09-26 18:13:50 <jgarzik> maaku: don't think so, but it is possible
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1041 2012-09-26 18:14:15 <maaku> k thx
1042 2012-09-26 18:14:30 <maaku> i think it's a problem with my code anyway, but I just wanted to be sure
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1045 2012-09-26 18:20:04 <bonks> Sweet! My move was successful. Thanks all. So next time I need to remember to shutdown with detachdb=1. Copy blk* files, then restart on new server
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1047 2012-09-26 18:20:31 <maaku> yup, my code :\
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1071 2012-09-26 18:44:14 <amiller> bonks, that's neat, you transported your own blkindex and blk00* to a different machine and started it up again?
1072 2012-09-26 18:45:09 <bonks> amiller: Yep
1073 2012-09-26 18:46:30 <bonks> amiller: Obviously I need the blkindex otherwise bitcoind needs to reprocess the blk000? files to build the index (which is the most time consuming)
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1075 2012-09-26 18:47:27 <kjj_> doing that isn't documented anywhere, and I think the official line is "don't".  but it works pretty well
1076 2012-09-26 18:48:02 <bonks> kjj_: Well don't if it's from a public source
1077 2012-09-26 18:48:07 <kjj_> I use it to feed my p2pool nodes that boot from PXE
1078 2012-09-26 18:48:13 <kjj_> right
1079 2012-09-26 18:48:15 <bonks> I copied my own which started from scratch
1080 2012-09-26 18:48:36 <jgarzik> you're trading time cost for security cost -- because copying the index means zero validation is done on the copied blocks
1081 2012-09-26 18:48:53 <jgarzik> if it's my machine A -> my machine B, that's just fine
1082 2012-09-26 18:49:08 <gmaxwell> 11:40 < kjj_> doing that isn't documented anywhere, and I think the official line is "don't".  but it works pretty well
1083 2012-09-26 18:49:16 <gmaxwell> huh? it's documented all over the forums.
1084 2012-09-26 18:49:21 <kjj_> jgarzik: I've been trying to think of a way that someone could actually gain by making a fake chain
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1087 2012-09-26 18:49:31 <gmaxwell> And the only reason I'd say don't now is that the whole detach thing is pretty confusing.
1088 2012-09-26 18:49:38 Raziel_ has joined
1089 2012-09-26 18:49:42 <jgarzik> a safer option is copying the blk*.dat... then -checkblocks=0 -checklevel=6
1090 2012-09-26 18:49:49 <jgarzik> probably faster too
1091 2012-09-26 18:50:12 <jgarzik> that way you don't copy _again_ or reindex, just verify
1092 2012-09-26 18:50:43 <kjj_> gmaxwell: only if you know what to search for.
1093 2012-09-26 18:51:08 <jgarzik> kjj_: the odd isolated case is probably not much gain...  but if the "copy index + data, don't verify" practice becomes widespread, it becomes easier to compromise the group
1094 2012-09-26 18:51:08 <amiller> jgarzik, another interesting case is my machine A -> dropbox -> my machine B
1095 2012-09-26 18:51:32 <gmaxwell> amiller: do you often out 3GB data on dropbox? 0_o?
1096 2012-09-26 18:51:50 <kjj_> jgarzik: still, I don't see how to gain from it without a bunch of other unlikely circumstances
1097 2012-09-26 18:51:51 <amiller> s/dropbox/s3
1098 2012-09-26 18:52:23 <amiller> at least he md5'd each of his files
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1100 2012-09-26 18:55:47 * jgarzik was thinking about S3 distribution
1101 2012-09-26 18:56:07 <jgarzik> if there was some sort of communal pool for paying the Amazon bills, that was be a nice method of distribution
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1103 2012-09-26 18:56:13 <jgarzik> *would be
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1105 2012-09-26 18:56:35 <jgarzik> Amazon limits objects to 5GB IIRC, so we'd need to store at blk????.dat rather than One Big File
1106 2012-09-26 18:56:38 <jgarzik> *as
1107 2012-09-26 18:56:48 <amiller> it's weird beecause the blk*0.dat and the blkindex are slightly different for everyone
1108 2012-09-26 18:57:01 <amiller> everyone builds blk00*.dat with the same blocks but in potentially different order
1109 2012-09-26 18:57:38 <jgarzik> amiller: If I was building for distribution, I'd start fresh
1110 2012-09-26 18:57:55 * jgarzik has also been thinking about a torrent, updated either (a) once per release or (b) once a month or so
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1113 2012-09-26 18:58:46 <amiller> that's interesting, if people periodically went through their blk*.dat, and created new files with unused blocks removed
1114 2012-09-26 18:58:57 <amiller> then they'd eventually all converge and we'd actually have the same blk*.dats
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1117 2012-09-26 18:59:34 <kjj_> if download was the problem, and we multithreaded the block fetcher, we'd be awfully close to being a torrent already
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1119 2012-09-26 19:00:24 <bonks> kjj_: I thought processing was the problem. network was never as slow as cpu/io
1120 2012-09-26 19:01:02 <bonks> Which is why I didn't like -loadblock for moving as it reprocessed at essentially the same speed
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1122 2012-09-26 19:02:34 <kjj_> grabbing blocks from an untrusted source and running -loadblock on it is somewhat safe
1123 2012-09-26 19:03:51 <amiller> what happens if you securely transport your own blkindex.dat but download blk0*.dat from an untrusted source, but just turn it on without -loadblock
1124 2012-09-26 19:04:12 <kjj_> most likely a segfault
1125 2012-09-26 19:04:37 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: S3 can server files automagically as a torrent
1126 2012-09-26 19:04:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: quite true, I'd forgotten about that
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1129 2012-09-26 19:06:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I've bandied about the idea in the past of patching the client to _not_ download any block below the last checkpoint
1130 2012-09-26 19:06:27 <jgarzik> thereby forcing "the community" (perhaps me, on S3 and torrent) to come up with a solution for initial bootstrap
1131 2012-09-26 19:06:44 <jgarzik> maybe create an easy bitcoin-firsttime.exe which executes bitcoin-qt.exe, for Windows users
1132 2012-09-26 19:07:20 <jgarzik> not saying it's a great or thought out idea, but it's something to explore
1133 2012-09-26 19:07:42 <amiller> jgarzik, i think it's a cool idea, suppose everyone's at the most recent checkpoint and their blkindex's are all different, but they represent the same set of txes
1134 2012-09-26 19:07:48 <jgarzik> if there was a regular torrent, plus bitcoin-firsttime.exe to download it, the experience could be made pretty seamless
1135 2012-09-26 19:07:53 lggr has joined
1136 2012-09-26 19:08:18 <amiller> you can rearrange your blkindex, one non-changing transformation at a time, until it matches the 'community bootstrap' version
1137 2012-09-26 19:08:45 pusle has joined
1138 2012-09-26 19:08:46 <amiller> now you're safe to use the community checkpoint in the future, still zero trust
1139 2012-09-26 19:08:51 <jgarzik> perhaps... I was mainly thinking about shifting the current burden away from public node, for serving ancient data
1140 2012-09-26 19:08:57 <jgarzik> disk seeks++   right now
1141 2012-09-26 19:09:09 <jgarzik> (unless you have enough RAM to cache 100% of the block chain)
1142 2012-09-26 19:09:34 <bonks> I don't know the inner workings of bitcoind but could we someday have a a bunch of public nodes that host the blockchain and the local client validates remotely?
1143 2012-09-26 19:09:55 <amiller> like there must be a canonical blkindex.dat associated with each checkpoint
1144 2012-09-26 19:09:56 <jgarzik> bonks: that is what we do right now.  public nodes all hold a copy of the entire blockchain.
1145 2012-09-26 19:10:12 <gmaxwell> amiller: no.
1146 2012-09-26 19:10:34 <bonks> jgarzik: Oh true. I guess I mean offloading the processing
1147 2012-09-26 19:10:49 <gmaxwell> amiller: the blk files contain orphans for good and reasonsable reasons. So the index points to different locations.
1148 2012-09-26 19:11:08 <amiller> a canonical blkindex.dat would be what you'd get if you consumed a blk*.dat that has exactly the blocks in order
1149 2012-09-26 19:11:54 <kjj_> when downloading now, does the client do full validation on every transaction in every block?
1150 2012-09-26 19:11:56 <jgarzik> shipping an index would be fine, and enable quick startup
1151 2012-09-26 19:12:04 <jgarzik> just need a magic trigger for "verify index"
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1153 2012-09-26 19:12:13 <jgarzik> a first-time-run flag
1154 2012-09-26 19:12:33 <jgarzik> actually... hmmm...  I like that solution a lot
1155 2012-09-26 19:13:14 <kjj_> if we believe in checkpoints, then there is no point in checking anything except the hash and the prevHash until we hit the most recent one
1156 2012-09-26 19:13:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm busily crossing my eyes at you.
1157 2012-09-26 19:14:08 <gmaxwell> kjj_: That isn't what checkpoints are for.
1158 2012-09-26 19:14:15 <kjj_> agreed
1159 2012-09-26 19:14:17 <kjj_> still...
1160 2012-09-26 19:14:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1162 2012-09-26 19:14:45 <gmaxwell> And we do not "believe in checkpoints"; if we do we might as well just ditch this burdensome blockchain thing and have gavin sign all the transactions.
1163 2012-09-26 19:15:05 <gavinandresen> my arm would get too tired
1164 2012-09-26 19:15:20 <gmaxwell> I'm now imagining gavin with a stamp "[CONFIRMED]"
1165 2012-09-26 19:15:59 <kjj_> hmm.  gavin, are you likely to live longer than me?  I'm trying to decide if this idea is good enough not to bite me in the ass decades down the road...
1166 2012-09-26 19:16:09 <gmaxwell> The leveldb + ultraprune stuff makes the indexing part superfast. Next bottleneck is bad peer selection for downloading and getting stuck, I think.
1167 2012-09-26 19:17:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: that solves nothing related to initial bootstrap.  public nodes remain required to cache the entire blockchain in RAM, or face punishing disk seeks as ancient blocks are randomly requested.
1168 2012-09-26 19:17:13 <jgarzik> face it, the network will never be tuned for IBD
1169 2012-09-26 19:17:38 <jgarzik> torrent just flat out does a better job of "give me a big whollop of data, from other parties also interested specifically in same data"
1170 2012-09-26 19:17:51 <jgarzik> that leaves the P2P network to do what it does best -- current TX's and blocks
1171 2012-09-26 19:18:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Have you ever run a big torrent seeder? random IO crushing them is an enormous problem for them.
1172 2012-09-26 19:18:37 <kjj_> and torrent hashes the shit out of everything already, so it is secure-ish
1173 2012-09-26 19:19:29 <gmaxwell> kjj_: what? no. irrelevant. geesh. Wrong security model.
1174 2012-09-26 19:19:59 <kjj_> if you trust the torrent file to be correct, then the files you get from the network will be correct
1175 2012-09-26 19:20:01 <jgarzik> mildly relevant, in that you are getting the hash publishing by the torrent maintainer
1176 2012-09-26 19:20:05 <jgarzik> block chain is self-verifying
1177 2012-09-26 19:20:11 <jgarzik> so it doesn't really matter
1178 2012-09-26 19:20:17 <jgarzik> *published
1179 2012-09-26 19:20:19 lggr has joined
1180 2012-09-26 19:20:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: sure.
1181 2012-09-26 19:20:46 D34TH has joined
1182 2012-09-26 19:20:51 <jgarzik> torrent nicely aligns with getting data from the people most interested in the data
1183 2012-09-26 19:21:04 <jgarzik> once sync'd, P2P users are most interested in recent data
1184 2012-09-26 19:21:27 <jgarzik> so P2P is essentially a nice real-time broadcast piece, with an ugly Big File Transfer piece hacked in
1185 2012-09-26 19:21:48 <jgarzik> after a lot of work, we wind up... recreating the best logics of torrent ;p
1186 2012-09-26 19:21:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: No. _bitcoin_ nicely aligns with getting data from the people interested in the data; Torrent nicely aligned with getting access blocked on networks "because p2p file sharing"— similar to the problems we've had with IRC.
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1189 2012-09-26 19:22:57 <kjj_> if the initial download was multithreaded, we'd be like 90% of the way towards being torrent anyway
1190 2012-09-26 19:23:00 <jgarzik> what major ISP blocks all torrents?
1191 2012-09-26 19:23:04 <jgarzik> that sounds hyperbolic
1192 2012-09-26 19:23:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: consider, a full block download even done most pessimally is only 200k random seeks in aggregate. It is not obvious to me that the seeking load is a burden.
1193 2012-09-26 19:23:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it is a highly fragmented file, randomly accessed at a high rate by >100 parallel streams at times
1194 2012-09-26 19:24:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it triggers secrutity warnings in some hosting facilities and on many commercial networks— same story as IRC (no major ISP blocks that either)
1195 2012-09-26 19:24:12 <jgarzik> my public nodes with < 8GB RAM see disk wait very frequently
1196 2012-09-26 19:24:34 <jgarzik> it is clearly a problem, one that will only grow as public node counts decrease and block chain size increases
1197 2012-09-26 19:24:54 <jgarzik> reinventing torrent inside P2P is a painful, slow way of reinventing the wheel
1198 2012-09-26 19:25:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the blocks are written at once. There are about 200k blocks currently. They should not be fragmented, and as the rate grows you're talking about one seek per 1MB data served.
1199 2012-09-26 19:25:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: the blocks are written once every 10 minutes
1200 2012-09-26 19:25:25 <Varan> Can you not generate a torrent file every 1000 blocks or some and seed that?
1201 2012-09-26 19:25:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: highly fragmented, post-IBD
1202 2012-09-26 19:25:36 <gmaxwell> Torrent has to deal with a lot of issues we don't.
1203 2012-09-26 19:25:51 <jgarzik> it is the classic "slowly growing file" pattern that, just like mbox files, plays hell on your filesystem
1204 2012-09-26 19:25:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm already assuming a pessimal case there where each single block (which is written at once) is a seperate seek.
1205 2012-09-26 19:26:17 <jgarzik> Varan: yes, that is possible
1206 2012-09-26 19:26:29 <jgarzik> Varan: one could create a torrent for blk00001.dat, blk0002.dat, ...
1207 2012-09-26 19:26:56 <Varan> But something tells me you dont think that a solution :P
1208 2012-09-26 19:27:08 <maaku> Varan: the problem isn't download, but seeking on disk during verification
1209 2012-09-26 19:27:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1210 2012-09-26 19:27:19 <Varan> ah oke
1211 2012-09-26 19:27:35 <amiller> maaku, it's not just verification, it's seeking on disk to server random client requests
1212 2012-09-26 19:27:38 <gmaxwell> maaku: your comment is why this discussion should go away until after ultraprune+leveldb is merged.
1213 2012-09-26 19:27:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it is plainly in disk wait here, and it is self evident that seeks are unavoidable if the working set exceeds pagecache RAM
1214 2012-09-26 19:28:08 <jgarzik> torrent offloads work that reduces the working set to manageable size
1215 2012-09-26 19:28:09 <maaku> gmaxwell: agreed
1216 2012-09-26 19:28:14 <amiller> being able to 'chunk' the blocks into various ways is useful, a block is already a chunk of individual transactions, and a blk00001.dat is a chunk of blocks
1217 2012-09-26 19:28:22 <jgarzik> simple math of pagecache size
1218 2012-09-26 19:28:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: What are you even measuring?  Regular validation on a non-ultraprue/leveldb node spends tons of time in disk wait; but that has nothing to do with block download.
1219 2012-09-26 19:28:56 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: public nodes, the server side
1220 2012-09-26 19:29:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: you cannot only pay attention to the client side
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1222 2012-09-26 19:29:39 <Varan> Does bitcoin currently download blocks while it verifies others?
1223 2012-09-26 19:29:40 <gavinandresen> yeah, we should revisit post ultraprune.  The right thing is probably just a set of canonical blk000*.dat files available for download as a shortcut to asking your peers for blocks.
1224 2012-09-26 19:29:46 <gmaxwell> I'm not only paying attention to the client side, but I think your figures are being distorted by it.
1225 2012-09-26 19:30:16 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and really, so relegate the blockpullers to another thread and let them wait on the disk.
1226 2012-09-26 19:30:34 Motest003 has joined
1227 2012-09-26 19:30:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ...and that fixes precisely NOTHING in the problem described
1228 2012-09-26 19:30:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: because you're describing a non-problem.
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1230 2012-09-26 19:31:15 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no, I am describing a real world problem that is observed right now
1231 2012-09-26 19:31:44 Motest031 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1232 2012-09-26 19:32:11 <jgarzik> Let's try again.  Requests for blocks to public nodes are effectively random and parallel:  my public nodes seem block #1000 simultaneously requested with block #130000 and #193000.
1233 2012-09-26 19:32:18 <gmaxwell> You're insisting there is one— not showing any evidence of it— and invoking questionable bittorrent pixiedust to fix it. Which would basically double the amount of security risky code that goes into operating a full node (a full bittorrent implementation) and adds another p2p network with a bunch of liablities.
1234 2012-09-26 19:32:29 <jgarzik> If a block is not in OS pagecache, it must seek to the block, read from disk, and serve.
1235 2012-09-26 19:32:42 <jgarzik> The block will not be in OS pagecache, if block chain size > pagecache available size
1236 2012-09-26 19:32:47 <jgarzik> this is the "working set"
1237 2012-09-26 19:32:58 <jgarzik> the working set continues to grow as the block chain grows
1238 2012-09-26 19:33:09 <jgarzik> thus, the cache requirement of public nodes continues to grow
1239 2012-09-26 19:33:40 <jgarzik> moving requesting of old blocks off-network solves this
1240 2012-09-26 19:33:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it only grows if you're interested in serving out the chain at higher speeds that you can get from one seek per block.
1241 2012-09-26 19:33:52 <kjj_> ok, I'll end this.
1242 2012-09-26 19:34:02 <jgarzik> thereby making public node costs more sustainable over time
1243 2012-09-26 19:34:07 xisalty has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1244 2012-09-26 19:34:12 <gmaxwell> And bittorrent has the same problem, it does not optimize for cache locality.
1245 2012-09-26 19:34:23 <Varan> Is it not possible to have the client download a set of block for example block 0 to 500?
1246 2012-09-26 19:34:28 <kjj_> torrent has LESS seek problems than bitcoin, because torrent operates on a blocks of bytes, not bitcoin blocks
1247 2012-09-26 19:34:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: that does not matter, because _clients_ take the burden away from public nodes.
1248 2012-09-26 19:34:40 <jgarzik> that is the part you keep skipping
1249 2012-09-26 19:34:43 <amiller> it's possible to shard effectively by having a cluster of servers that are each responsible for a range of blocks
1250 2012-09-26 19:34:43 <Varan> this would reduce the load on full clients right?
1251 2012-09-26 19:34:49 <jgarzik> we need to encourage people to run public nodes
1252 2012-09-26 19:34:56 <amiller> so if your public nodes were instead several nodes, then you could distribute
1253 2012-09-26 19:35:03 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1255 2012-09-26 19:35:18 <gmaxwell> kjj_: we work in batches of blocks in any case.. requesting 500 at a time.
1256 2012-09-26 19:35:27 <amiller> that's not really any different than saying you can break it up into chunks and then torrent those
1257 2012-09-26 19:35:27 <kjj_> right, but that's totally different
1258 2012-09-26 19:35:34 <gmaxwell> (though we cap that to a couple mb because of sillyness with send buffer management)
1259 2012-09-26 19:35:40 <amiller> it's not totally different it's just farther on one extreme
1260 2012-09-26 19:35:53 <Varan> gmaxwell, but are those 500 blocks from one client?
1261 2012-09-26 19:35:57 <amiller> you could have a blk000001.dat every 500 blocks
1262 2012-09-26 19:36:00 <gmaxwell> Varan: yes.
1263 2012-09-26 19:36:03 <Varan> ah oke
1264 2012-09-26 19:36:05 <kjj_> gmaxwell: torrent divides the files up into chunks of equal size with no understanding of what the bytes mean
1265 2012-09-26 19:36:19 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1266 2012-09-26 19:36:22 <kjj_> bitcoin serves the blocks AS BLOCKS, not as bytes
1267 2012-09-26 19:36:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not sure I follow you. The demand is X you can spread it out over 15,000 nodes... or 100. But the demand is X.  It's a lot harder and more vulnerable to blocking and failure if it's on 100 rather than 15,000.
1268 2012-09-26 19:36:46 <jgarzik> right now the IBD burden is foisted upon public nodes very heavily
1269 2012-09-26 19:36:52 <gavinandresen> moving initial block download traffic off the p2p network seems like the right direction to go to me.
1270 2012-09-26 19:37:22 <jgarzik> the torrent solution (or another off-network solution) shifts the burden to the set of folks actually interested in IBD data
1271 2012-09-26 19:37:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I several public nodes and simply don't see what you're talking about.
1272 2012-09-26 19:38:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I imagine your public nodes are not listed in the wiki as fallback nodes, nor always returned in a DNS seed query
1273 2012-09-26 19:38:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well perhaps you should stop DOSing yourself then.
1274 2012-09-26 19:38:26 <gmaxwell> :P
1275 2012-09-26 19:38:48 <gmaxwell> Your static DNS seed responses are apparently generating too much load on their victims.
1276 2012-09-26 19:38:53 lggr has joined
1277 2012-09-26 19:38:55 <jgarzik> It is rather nice to see problems before they hit the rest of the users.
1278 2012-09-26 19:39:05 <jgarzik> which is apparent here
1279 2012-09-26 19:39:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I bevelieve the overwhelming majority of users could serve their network bottleneck with purely random IO.
1280 2012-09-26 19:39:39 <gmaxwell> And our IO is far from purely random.
1281 2012-09-26 19:40:06 <jgarzik> public node I/O is very random
1282 2012-09-26 19:40:19 <jgarzik> and if it is uncached and random, that is not desirable
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1284 2012-09-26 19:40:24 <gmaxwell> IBD fetches are 500 blocks at a time.
1285 2012-09-26 19:40:48 <jgarzik> times N clients
1286 2012-09-26 19:41:00 <gmaxwell> Validation is much more random; which is why I was suggesting that perhaps your observations are polluted by that... leveldb + ultraprune helps a lot.
1287 2012-09-26 19:41:03 <gavinandresen> our IBD code seems like a patched-together mess right now....
1288 2012-09-26 19:41:18 <gavinandresen> ... which is why I think rethinking it is the right thing to do.
1289 2012-09-26 19:41:37 <gavinandresen> And I'm not inclined to spend a ton of time on something that is done exactly once per user.
1290 2012-09-26 19:41:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: doesn't matter. For later in the chain you're talking about serving up many megabytes per seek. Seek to bytes ratio is the efficiency metric that matters.
1291 2012-09-26 19:41:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: _not hitting disk_ is what matters!
1292 2012-09-26 19:42:07 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: how about a design that does not hit disk at alll
1293 2012-09-26 19:42:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: sure but what are you going to do— leave a reference client that is unusable because it can't start itself; or merge in 40,000 loc of bittorrent network code, some of which has probably never been audited with a security critical eye?
1294 2012-09-26 19:42:42 <Varan> jgarzik, for the time being it should be easy to have the whole blockchain in RAM
1295 2012-09-26 19:42:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Bittorrent does not get you that! At all!
1296 2012-09-26 19:42:47 <D34TH> jgarzik, with pynode's branch mininode what is under tx besides hash and is_valid()
1297 2012-09-26 19:42:54 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: for the public nodes, yes it does
1298 2012-09-26 19:42:57 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1299 2012-09-26 19:43:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: for the nodes currently hit the most, yes it does
1300 2012-09-26 19:43:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: only because you're imaginging magical altruistic seeding nodes, which have enormous resources.  And if we want that we could just run bitcoin on them.. and use a flag IBD_ME on them to prefer them.
1301 2012-09-26 19:43:45 <jgarzik> bitcoin-firsttime.exe could download from Amazon S3.  If that fails, use a hash to search for torrent peers.
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1303 2012-09-26 19:44:35 <jgarzik> <shrug> the solution I described does not involve any bitcoind changes at all, except perhaps a "don't IBD by default" flag
1304 2012-09-26 19:44:43 <gmaxwell> Presumably someone is willing to spend the 40cts or so it would cost per user that installs from S3?
1305 2012-09-26 19:44:44 <jgarzik> no 40 kLOC import
1306 2012-09-26 19:45:00 <D34TH> jgarzik, for the firsttime.exe why not just incorperate it into the installer as an option "Download blockchain?"
1307 2012-09-26 19:45:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I think the user community absolutely is willing to pay for that, yes
1308 2012-09-26 19:45:17 <jgarzik> D34TH: sure...
1309 2012-09-26 19:45:27 <jgarzik> D34TH: RE mini-node, not sure what you are asking
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1311 2012-09-26 19:45:58 <D34TH> jgarzik, besides hash and is_valid() what else can i access under message.tx
1312 2012-09-26 19:46:14 <jgarzik> D34TH: everything in CTransaction
1313 2012-09-26 19:46:20 <D34TH> thanks
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1315 2012-09-26 19:48:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: as far as the import goes— then you're still left with a handicapped node that doesn't work if there isn't a perpetual supply of altruists running S3 or bittorrent seeds, .. and the fact that the code isn't imported doesn't make it not a security concern... it just makes it attractive to attack bittorrent clients that are sharing the blockchain seed with the expectation that they have wallets.
1316 2012-09-26 19:49:06 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> <shrug> the solution I described does not involve any bitcoind changes at all, except perhaps a "don't IBD by default" flag
1317 2012-09-26 19:49:21 <jgarzik> obvious fallback -- The Old Way -- remains
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1319 2012-09-26 19:50:35 <gavinandresen> yes, we obviously don't have to get rid of The Old Way.  I think people will choose The New Way if it is much faster/convenient.
1320 2012-09-26 19:50:53 <gmaxwell> Okay, that indeed addresses most of that. I'm still highly skeptical that there is really anything to be concerned about now.  Lets assume that under pessimal load nodes can only do 1mbit/sec of blockchain seeding. Thus the network aggregate rate (listening nodes) is 15,000 mbit/sec.
1321 2012-09-26 19:51:10 <jgarzik> Yep.  And I imagine people might even be more willing to run public nodes, if they knew the IBD traffic did not default to Them.
1322 2012-09-26 19:51:26 <jgarzik> If the Default Way to IBD is not public nodes
1323 2012-09-26 19:51:41 <gmaxwell> Assuming the download takes 1 hr, (as it does with ultraprune) that means you need about 24000mbit/hr for one user.
1324 2012-09-26 19:52:24 <jgarzik> whatever it is, it becomes zero (0) mbit/hr for one user, from the viewpoint of a public node
1325 2012-09-26 19:52:29 <gavinandresen> RE: altruists:  if that is a problem I'm sure we could ask for companies willing to sponsor, and display "Blockchain History Download Sponsored By <foo.com>" ....
1326 2012-09-26 19:52:59 <jgarzik> bitcoin-firsttime.exe could look at $URL/sponsor.html and render in a dialog
1327 2012-09-26 19:53:00 <gmaxwell> So we should be able to support 2250 concurrent IBDers at full speed.
1328 2012-09-26 19:53:22 <gmaxwell> and thats under the pretty pessimal assumption that seeking reduces nodes to just 1mbit/sec.
1329 2012-09-26 19:55:09 <gmaxwell> I can't easily test this: I don't have a system with a spinning disk low enough ram that the whole chain isn't cached. But if it's one 10ms seek for 1MB (since we fetch upto 500 at once it should be much better than that) the real limit should be more like 800mbit/sec. for uncached spinning disk systems
1330 2012-09-26 19:55:16 <jgarzik> In 12 months of growth at current rates, what will blockchain size be?  That's the amount of cache RAM full nodes will need, to avoid hitting disk.
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1332 2012-09-26 19:55:33 <jgarzik> 4GB?  8GB?  to avoid constantly disk hits, however quick
1333 2012-09-26 19:55:41 <jgarzik> *constant
1334 2012-09-26 19:55:54 <gmaxwell> Or around 1,800,000 IBDers. Of course it's not that high because most nodes will be network limited long before they become disk seek limited.
1335 2012-09-26 19:56:04 <gavinandresen> The real issue is do we spend time re-creating BitTorrent or Amazon S3 to improve our existing IBD code (deal with slow peers, peers that disappear, etc etc etc) or not?  I say not.
1336 2012-09-26 19:56:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm not assuming any ram at all. these are assuming a 10ms disk seek per 1MB transfered.
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1338 2012-09-26 19:56:29 <kjj_> gmaxwell: I have a shitty server you could connect to if you want
1339 2012-09-26 19:56:34 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: we must fix that code or we risk nodes getting stuck during normal operation, it's not just an IBD issue.
1340 2012-09-26 19:57:32 lggr has joined
1341 2012-09-26 19:58:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: so, yea. What about my figuring above is wrong? because it looks like our disk-seek-limit _can't_ be a bottleneck for the current network; even ignoring cachablity completely.
1342 2012-09-26 19:58:07 <gavinandresen> Ok.  So fix that for the non-IBD case, and if it fixes IBD too then we're done.
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1344 2012-09-26 19:59:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: one thing my nodes have few of, which I think you have lots of, are bitcoinj peers. I wonder if their non-processing of blocks they pull makes them a much worse pulling load?
1345 2012-09-26 19:59:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: might be
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1350 2012-09-26 20:01:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I suppose for migrations we need to teach ultraprune+leveldb to index in place, enh?  If so.. then that would also be compatible with an installer download. (which I still think isn't needed; but it sounds like it's pure installer machinery to make that go)
1351 2012-09-26 20:02:06 graingert has joined
1352 2012-09-26 20:02:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: sipa has proposed reindexing as solving a couple problems; I agree
1353 2012-09-26 20:02:47 Marf has joined
1354 2012-09-26 20:03:18 <jgarzik> reindexing would save significant time
1355 2012-09-26 20:03:38 <jgarzik> and avoid users doubling their blockfile size with -loadblock=$DataDir/blk0001.dat
1356 2012-09-26 20:03:48 <gmaxwell> it would also address the annoyingly common issue with users that have corrupted databases.
1357 2012-09-26 20:03:54 <jgarzik> yes
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1360 2012-09-26 20:08:26 <gavinandresen> I'm working on dealing better with corrupted databases right now, by the way
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1366 2012-09-26 20:19:36 <jgarzik> bleh
1367 2012-09-26 20:19:42 <jgarzik> tree spews a metric ton of warnings now
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1370 2012-09-26 20:26:41 * jgarzik re-branches from older, working HEAD
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1409 2012-09-26 21:36:59 <jgarzik> sigh, erik v.  http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/9/26/bitcoin-the-first-five-questions.html
1410 2012-09-26 21:37:11 <jgarzik> "1. Zero fee to transfer money"
1411 2012-09-26 21:37:24 <jgarzik> "6. Any amount can be sent (perfect for microtransactions under a penny, for example)"
1412 2012-09-26 21:37:24 Marf has quit (Quit: Marf)
1413 2012-09-26 21:39:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: why do you show me these things?  You are a cruel person.
1414 2012-09-26 21:39:43 * jgarzik clicks "Merge" button for OP_DROP, just to taunt you
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1429 2012-09-26 21:52:14 <gmaxwell> :P
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1437 2012-09-26 22:03:05 <root2> why do people say things like that about bitcoin? Five minutes reading the FAQ would clear that all up
1438 2012-09-26 22:03:19 <root2> why do peoples brains turn to mush when dealing with bitcoin?
1439 2012-09-26 22:03:29 <root2> same thing with that pirate deal
1440 2012-09-26 22:03:53 <root2> 3000% anual gain? sounds legit
1441 2012-09-26 22:04:48 balrog has joined
1442 2012-09-26 22:05:05 agricocb has joined
1443 2012-09-26 22:05:08 <jrmithdobbs> root2: why have people been falling for 409 scams for 40 years?
1444 2012-09-26 22:05:12 <jrmithdobbs> people are stupid
1445 2012-09-26 22:06:11 xisalty has joined
1446 2012-09-26 22:06:12 <jrmithdobbs> root2: s/409 scams/scientology/;s/40/60/; or s/409 scams/christianity/;s/40/2000/;
1447 2012-09-26 22:06:14 <root2> I dont want to believe that. Lie to me jrmithdobbs!
1448 2012-09-26 22:06:25 <jrmithdobbs> root2: people what non-existant easy answers to hard problems
1449 2012-09-26 22:06:30 <jrmithdobbs> s/what/want/
1450 2012-09-26 22:06:48 <jgarzik> Erik V is trying to sell bitcoin, and salesmen are prone to exaggeration / glossing over.
1451 2012-09-26 22:06:51 optimator_ is now known as optimator
1452 2012-09-26 22:07:03 <jgarzik> I wouldn't call him stupid
1453 2012-09-26 22:09:10 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1455 2012-09-26 22:11:04 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i'd call him a con man, but meh
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1460 2012-09-26 22:11:56 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: BitInstant is a net-positive.  SatoshiDICE, more of a meh but that's life.
1461 2012-09-26 22:12:31 agricocb has joined
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1463 2012-09-26 22:17:56 <maaku> sigh.. why is it the stupid one-line mistakes that take an afternoon to hunt down?
1464 2012-09-26 22:18:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1465 2012-09-26 22:20:25 <jrmithdobbs> because the bigger ones are too easy to spot ;p
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1501 2012-09-26 23:20:09 <maaku> Is there a script for generating blk0001.dat?
1502 2012-09-26 23:20:30 <maaku> from an existing set of block chain files of course
1503 2012-09-26 23:21:02 <gmaxwell> maaku: blk0001.dat is just a blockchain file... um.. cat? :P
1504 2012-09-26 23:21:32 <maaku> I mean the reduced, final state version Luke-Jr posted
1505 2012-09-26 23:21:37 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1506 2012-09-26 23:22:07 <maaku> a script for pulling out blocks 0, 1, 2, … 188528 in order and concatenating them
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1508 2012-09-26 23:24:32 <gmaxwell> maaku: I believe luke used isolated bitcoin nodes for this. (it was at least what I suggested he do, since he needed the index too)
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1510 2012-09-26 23:25:15 <maaku> ok thanks
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1512 2012-09-26 23:27:06 <Gabit> Do you guys know if satoshidice is made with basic bitcoind-client?
1513 2012-09-26 23:27:15 <Gabit> hi all, btw :)
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1521 2012-09-26 23:32:16 <sebicas> Gabit: I think they use Bitcoink
1522 2012-09-26 23:32:23 <sebicas> Bitcoinj
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1524 2012-09-26 23:32:59 <gmaxwell> Gabit: if you're thinking of cloning it; don't bother... it's a network abusive service and none of the clones have done well.
1525 2012-09-26 23:33:03 <sebicas> Gahit: before 7.0 is was no way to the oficial client to custom build transactions
1526 2012-09-26 23:33:07 <Gabit> sebicas: Thanks :)
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1529 2012-09-26 23:33:40 <Gabit> gmaxwell: Not exactly, or even near. I'm just curious how they can see the 0-confirmations and play it out
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1531 2012-09-26 23:34:06 <sebicas> Gabit: you can do that with the new client 7.0
1532 2012-09-26 23:34:15 <sebicas> rawtransaction method
1533 2012-09-26 23:34:37 <Gabit> Oh thanks sebicas, saved me a ton of time :)
1534 2012-09-26 23:35:48 <sebicas> Gabit: No problem… you will need to use createrawtransaction
1535 2012-09-26 23:35:50 <gmaxwell> sebicas: please don't supply tech support to likely DOS attackers. :P
1536 2012-09-26 23:36:04 <maaku> or modify blkmond, dynode, or one of the other half-a-node libraries
1537 2012-09-26 23:36:11 <sebicas> ok gmaxwell..
1538 2012-09-26 23:36:14 <Gabit> gmaxwell: excuse me?
1539 2012-09-26 23:36:30 <maaku> dynode=pynode
1540 2012-09-26 23:36:33 <sebicas> There is a huge controversy..
1541 2012-09-26 23:36:39 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1542 2012-09-26 23:36:45 <gmaxwell> Gabit: Yes
1543 2012-09-26 23:36:46 <gmaxwell> ?
1544 2012-09-26 23:36:51 <sebicas> Since satoshi dice generates a lot of small transactions
1545 2012-09-26 23:36:59 <sebicas> Wich is bad for the nextwork
1546 2012-09-26 23:37:11 <sebicas> network..
1547 2012-09-26 23:37:31 <gmaxwell> sebicas: _needlessly_ which is key. No other popular gambling site— even cryptographically proven ones— generate two transactions per play.
1548 2012-09-26 23:38:12 <maaku> gmaxwell: it's essential to the psychology of gambling that underlies satoshidice's business model
1549 2012-09-26 23:38:29 <maaku> gmaxwell: i'd like to see any detractor propose an alternative
1550 2012-09-26 23:38:33 <sebicas> gmaxwell: I totally understand it now.. but I few weeks ago I had the same questions Gabit has
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1552 2012-09-26 23:38:59 <Gabit> Well, as I said I'm not interested in sending 0.01 coins over. I'm interested about the speed when a depositor can get to playing.
1553 2012-09-26 23:39:08 <jgarzik> <shrug> satoshidice could wait 30 seconds, or even 15, before transferring results back (so as to gather results inside sendmany)
1554 2012-09-26 23:39:13 <gmaxwell> maaku: there are hundreds of successful bitcoin gambling sites; many much more successful than dice in terms of income.
1555 2012-09-26 23:39:37 <sebicas> Like?
1556 2012-09-26 23:39:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it could also not create tons of 1e-8 outputs which will never get spent. :-/
1557 2012-09-26 23:40:36 <sebicas> I think since lots of people is cloning SD the should understand this problem to find a way to fix it.
1558 2012-09-26 23:41:17 <maaku> jgarzik: no, even a few seconds delay would ruin the "can't stop now" martingale psychology that satoshidice relies upon
1559 2012-09-26 23:41:36 <gmaxwell> sebicas: like pretty much every other one. Dice is net negative— after fees and operating costs— according to its owner.  (in some post a couple weeks ago)
1560 2012-09-26 23:41:40 <Gabit> the network could collaboratively decide minimum amount to send...
1561 2012-09-26 23:42:00 <Gabit> they would decline small amounts... for example
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1563 2012-09-26 23:42:54 <gmaxwell> sebicas: it's also unclear how popular it actually is— since you don't know how much of its traffic is pure promotional stunt.
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1567 2012-09-26 23:43:44 <sebicas> gmaxwell: you are right about it… most players are robots, and can be easily be their own, since either way the money goes to him
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1569 2012-09-26 23:45:05 <gmaxwell> sebicas: originally most of the high value bets were losing a suspicious amount of the time... inspiring speculation that they were cooking it it make it look more rewarding to play. (the operating can pre-choose winning or losing bets)
1570 2012-09-26 23:45:13 <Gabit> actually, shouldn't it be possible to make a feature where a miner could decline processing a payment if not a tx fee included?
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1576 2012-09-26 23:46:05 <sebicas> Gabit: Yes, miners can choose to that TXs include in blocks
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1578 2012-09-26 23:46:55 <sebicas> Gabit, what ever you do, use the network efficiently.
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1582 2012-09-26 23:47:37 <sebicas> Send as many transactions togheter as you can.. with sendmany
1583 2012-09-26 23:47:53 <gmaxwell> Gabit: dice applies a fee to every txn due to issues in bitcoinj; so that makes it more likely to crowd out regular transactions that actually have a decent need of confirmation.
1584 2012-09-26 23:48:03 <Gabit> I will :) My goal is the speed, so the game can start preferably in seconds rather than minutes.
1585 2012-09-26 23:48:20 <gmaxwell> sebicas: better advice is to just maintain a balance so that not every user action must generate bitcoin traffic.
1586 2012-09-26 23:48:25 Arnavion has quit (Client Quit)
1587 2012-09-26 23:49:05 <gmaxwell> E.g. keep winnings in the account... go to a webpage, get an address.. send money to play.. send money to keep playing.. or click a button to play using your balance..
1588 2012-09-26 23:49:24 <gmaxwell> and when you're done hit cashout (or after a timeout in case your browser crashes)
1589 2012-09-26 23:49:35 <gmaxwell> and then delay the cashout 10 minutes for batching.
1590 2012-09-26 23:50:16 da2ce7 has joined
1591 2012-09-26 23:50:19 <gmaxwell> you don't need an account or anything; just a set of input addresses per user.
1592 2012-09-26 23:50:31 lggr has joined
1593 2012-09-26 23:50:38 <Gabit> gmaxwell: that actually is quite near what i had in mind
1594 2012-09-26 23:51:01 <Gabit> but the speed is the problem there... not a problem, but rather annoyance
1595 2012-09-26 23:51:13 <Gabit> if it slow, one has to have a account
1596 2012-09-26 23:51:14 <gmaxwell> why? it can be a _lot_ faster that way.
1597 2012-09-26 23:51:29 <sebicas> gmaxwell: I think is a good advice from the technical perspective… but people like real time
1598 2012-09-26 23:51:32 <Gabit> yea, there comes the 0-confirm right there
1599 2012-09-26 23:51:36 <gmaxwell> you could do hundreds thousands of bets per second inside the system.
1600 2012-09-26 23:51:52 <gmaxwell> Gabit: when people cashout you just arrange so that their inputs are part of the cashout.
1601 2012-09-26 23:52:29 <Gabit> gmaxwell: yea, that blocks double spending :)
1602 2012-09-26 23:53:05 <gmaxwell> sebicas: huh, other than the cashout thats all realtime. (and also, delaying the cashout may have useful psychological effects— play more or wait to get funds released?)
1603 2012-09-26 23:53:22 <gmaxwell> and you don't even have to do the input mapping if all the input payments have since confirmed.
1604 2012-09-26 23:54:32 <gmaxwell> not to mention, the double spend protection is overrated. An attacker that can effectively double spend can just only double spend their losses. and the protection is ineffective there.
1605 2012-09-26 23:55:02 <gmaxwell> uses that gamble and always win are no better than ones you just rob you win or lose.
1606 2012-09-26 23:55:35 <Gabit> that is true... so basically i need confirmations
1607 2012-09-26 23:56:13 <gmaxwell> or get investors; so it's not your butt on the line if you get robbed and go insolvent. :-/
1608 2012-09-26 23:56:48 <Gabit> or use the larger wallet-processors as partners
1609 2012-09-26 23:56:55 <Gabit> for insta play
1610 2012-09-26 23:57:00 <gmaxwell> Yea, joric's mtgox code thing is neat.
1611 2012-09-26 23:57:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1612 2012-09-26 23:57:14 <gmaxwell> https://ragecoin.appspot.com/