1 2012-09-27 00:01:33 <Gabit> something very much like that :)
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   3 2012-09-27 00:03:50 <gmaxwell> I suspect it would do better (dunno how well its doing) if it were promoted better.  One thing dice did well is generate a lot of free advertising by being abusive on the network. I even doubt that was intentional, but well some of the best business moves are luck.
   4 2012-09-27 00:04:08 <gmaxwell> Also ... people writing bots for it.. which blows my mind but there you go.
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   7 2012-09-27 00:05:18 <jgarzik> New SD clone appears today: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112986.0
   8 2012-09-27 00:05:32 <gmaxwell> I suspect that there is a market gap created by the loss of bitcoinica... (which was largely outright gambling disguised as investing)
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  18 2012-09-27 00:18:23 <BlueMatt> sipa/jgarzik/gmaxwell: the reason it tests merge first is because I'd rather test the pull merged onto master than the pull branch itself; the reason it doesnt test if the merge fails is because Im lazy :)...anyway, Id rather use the github pull-test thinggy so that it all works cleaner anyway (and because I agree bumping is annoying)...can we get that set up?
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  21 2012-09-27 00:24:14 <BlueMatt> has the sourceforge mirror hack not come up in here yet? http://sourceforge.net/blog/phpmyadmin-back-door/
  22 2012-09-27 00:24:35 <BlueMatt> (have to say, Im kinda surprised they didnt target bitcoin...would have been way more profitable...)
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  25 2012-09-27 00:27:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it appeared on the forums, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113018.0
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  54 2012-09-27 01:32:49 <jgarzik> scalable data timestamping: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113337.0
  55 2012-09-27 01:33:39 <jgarzik> have a $DataService, that stamps a hash into their coinbase, so that it does not pollute the blockchain
  56 2012-09-27 01:33:52 <jgarzik> (not a new concept, but I'm glad it is getting attention)
  57 2012-09-27 01:34:16 <BlueMatt> nice
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  59 2012-09-27 01:36:37 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin's p2pool implementation is nice because it radically lowers the barrier to entry to trying out running the server of it.
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  62 2012-09-27 01:38:07 <gmaxwell> I think the concern about pool ops doing 'unauthorized' merging is spurrious. No one who cares is competent to figure it out... and I've not seen anyone asking pointed questions about the extra data in deepbit's coinbases.
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  69 2012-09-27 01:49:13 <Gabit> do you guys know a tutorial making a payment processor, to start with?
  70 2012-09-27 01:49:47 <Gabit> to avoid biggest mistakes...
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  84 2012-09-27 02:09:18 <maaku> gmaxwell: UukGoblin p2pool implementation? link?
  85 2012-09-27 02:12:09 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: what do you mean by "not in bitcoin coinbase, use a merged mining node"?
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  87 2012-09-27 02:13:12 <gmaxwell> maaku: https://github.com/goblin/chronobit
  88 2012-09-27 02:13:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: the merged mining data in the coinbase is a merkle root of a "auxillery data" merkle tree
  89 2012-09-27 02:13:21 <maaku> thx
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  91 2012-09-27 02:13:46 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: so, the timestamping data could just as well be an element in that tree
  92 2012-09-27 02:14:30 <Luke-Jr> which means it wouldn't make the bitcoin coinbase any bigger than it already is (for merged mining), and all the existing software on the pool end can be used
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  94 2012-09-27 02:14:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: ok, thanks for the explanation.  agreed.
  95 2012-09-27 02:15:13 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: you would need to be able to have a full merkle branch for the data chain
  96 2012-09-27 02:15:22 lggr has joined
  97 2012-09-27 02:15:36 <jgarzik> (not in the chain, but, _somewhere_)
  98 2012-09-27 02:15:48 <Luke-Jr> sure
  99 2012-09-27 02:16:30 <Luke-Jr> you need that for the data anyway, I think?
 100 2012-09-27 02:18:04 <gmaxwell> you need at least the timestamping tree, so this would only add a level or two to it.
 101 2012-09-27 02:19:10 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: is there some existing pool op standard for storing merged mining merkle root in the coinbase?
 102 2012-09-27 02:19:22 <jgarzik> something software may automatically recognize, regardless of position?
 103 2012-09-27 02:19:28 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 104 2012-09-27 02:20:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: 0_o yes, thats how standardize merged mining works. On supported pool servers you just have to point them at the merged chain daemon, and they don't need any modification to the poolserver.
 105 2012-09-27 02:20:29 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification is what namecoin (and a bunch of scamcoins) use
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 107 2012-09-27 02:21:03 <Luke-Jr> notably there is one exception: p2pool uses an extra 0-value output for its merged mining
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 109 2012-09-27 02:21:24 <jgarzik> ok, so there is a magic https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification#Merged_mining_coinbase
 110 2012-09-27 02:21:26 <Luke-Jr> which allows saving some space in the (merged) blockchains
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 113 2012-09-27 02:23:50 <Luke-Jr> it might be worth considering standardizing p2pool's merged mining in some way, but for timestamping I don't think there's any gain to it
 114 2012-09-27 02:26:23 <jgarzik> a bit disappointing that the data timestamping service might have to search in two places
 115 2012-09-27 02:26:32 <jgarzik> but at least it is only two
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 120 2012-09-27 02:36:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: p2pool's merge mining thing is only used for p2pool. It's not used for merging altcoins.
 121 2012-09-27 02:37:37 <forrestv> it could be, though. if there's interest, i'll write up a spec
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 124 2012-09-27 02:40:07 <jgarzik> forrestv: cool.  post a URL here, if you don't mind
 125 2012-09-27 02:40:09 <gmaxwell> bleh. :P
 126 2012-09-27 02:41:37 <jgarzik> isn't a spend-by-anyone output more prunable than embedded in coinbase for eternity?
 127 2012-09-27 02:41:48 * Luke-Jr isn't sure namecoin has enough relevance to switch MM algo at this point
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 129 2012-09-27 02:42:03 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: it's not either or
 130 2012-09-27 02:42:23 <Luke-Jr> deterministically-impossible-to-spend > spend-by-anyone > random
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 132 2012-09-27 02:42:39 <Luke-Jr> if it can be proven unspendable, it can be pruned immediately
 133 2012-09-27 02:43:01 <jgarzik> true but requires extra code to recognize etc.
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 135 2012-09-27 02:44:06 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: scriptPubKey[0] == OP_RETURN is easy to check and guaranteed to be unspendable
 136 2012-09-27 02:44:58 <jgarzik> "I won at first, and then I lost it all to SatoshiDICE" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113343.0
 137 2012-09-27 02:45:41 <Luke-Jr> this is one of those cases where I wish BitcoinTalk had a "like" button <.<
 138 2012-09-27 02:46:02 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: sure... but extra code to detect guaranteed-unspendable is required, whereas anyone-can-spend works now
 139 2012-09-27 02:46:03 <Luke-Jr> or maybe a "LOL" would be more accurate
 140 2012-09-27 02:46:18 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: we don't have any pruning now ._.
 141 2012-09-27 02:47:55 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: irrelevant.  you would still need special case code, for when pruning comes about, to detect guaranteed-unspendable transactions, versus code you already must write to process standard spend transactions.
 142 2012-09-27 02:48:09 lggr has joined
 143 2012-09-27 02:49:16 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I think saving space in the blockchain is worth that.
 144 2012-09-27 02:49:27 <Luke-Jr> (that is, space one would need to use to make it an input)
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 147 2012-09-27 02:53:16 <jgarzik> another topic
 148 2012-09-27 02:53:22 <jgarzik> I need to work on a "credstick"
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 150 2012-09-27 02:54:10 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: a what now
 151 2012-09-27 02:54:11 <jgarzik> Specify a USB stick protocol (FAT32 filesystem format layout) that permits key exchange
 152 2012-09-27 02:54:27 <jgarzik> slot your credstick, receive money
 153 2012-09-27 02:54:37 <jgarzik> or, slot your credstick and transfer money
 154 2012-09-27 02:54:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 155 2012-09-27 02:54:57 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 156 2012-09-27 02:55:09 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a security nightmare
 157 2012-09-27 02:55:10 <jrmithdobbs> giving POS-type systems r/w access to fs seems inherently a Bad Thing(tm)
 158 2012-09-27 02:55:52 <jrmithdobbs> i've seen too many magstripe things shimmed/etc to ever consider using something like that
 159 2012-09-27 02:55:57 <jgarzik> quite useful for several situations
 160 2012-09-27 02:56:12 <jrmithdobbs> a few corner cases maybe, but highly risky for the vast majority
 161 2012-09-27 02:56:22 <jgarzik> <shrug> no more so than NFC
 162 2012-09-27 02:56:30 <jrmithdobbs> much more so
 163 2012-09-27 02:56:42 <jrmithdobbs> because you could destroy people's keys
 164 2012-09-27 02:56:52 lggr has joined
 165 2012-09-27 02:57:14 <jrmithdobbs> steal keys, destroy originals, make machine display "please wait" or similar and force enough wear-leveling writes to make it hard to find again
 166 2012-09-27 02:57:20 <jgarzik> you could skrog the stick, but not necessarily the keys
 167 2012-09-27 02:57:52 <jrmithdobbs> esp considering you don't need to shim the port directly the way the bus works
 168 2012-09-27 03:02:36 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: i think for receiving payment it could be ok, but for sending you'd want to split it out to two usb keys and get things much more complicated than i'd be comfortable with
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 188 2012-09-27 03:35:58 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: I would just enable key exchange, not actually store keys
 189 2012-09-27 03:37:08 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: identity tokens is one method.  slot the credstick, read identity token, use that to query key over net.  unlock key with PIN pad at POS, just like debit card today.
 190 2012-09-27 03:37:12 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: maybe an example use case would help me understand what you're getting at?
 191 2012-09-27 03:37:39 <jgarzik> for receiving it's even easier
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 193 2012-09-27 03:38:23 <jrmithdobbs> ah, so the key isn't the only comms channel
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 195 2012-09-27 03:38:47 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's a lot easier and a lot less scary than what I thought you meant
 196 2012-09-27 03:39:10 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: you can store keys and transactions on a stick, but those can be stomped, as you point out
 197 2012-09-27 03:40:27 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: though I think transmitting the stored key *AND* the pin (to be combined somehow on the remote service) instead of using a pin to en/decrypt anything on the key would be a better approach than that specific example
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 203 2012-09-27 03:44:51 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: most POS around here already have a PIN pad, and customers trained to use it ;p
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 205 2012-09-27 03:45:38 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya but doesn't mean you should use it as the base for key material if you're already relying on another external service anyways
 206 2012-09-27 03:45:42 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: with a stick things will be passive on the customer end, so you probably would not have a secure channel, from the customer perspective
 207 2012-09-27 03:45:42 <kjj_> heh.  I still can't figure out why anyone uses debit cards
 208 2012-09-27 03:46:07 <jgarzik> kjj_: if you are poor and need a card
 209 2012-09-27 03:46:15 <jgarzik> or s/card/CC number/
 210 2012-09-27 03:46:46 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: thus the merchant would get an encrypted key, and need additional factor from customer to decrypt and spend to themselves
 211 2012-09-27 03:46:51 <kjj_> a secured credit card is just as easy to get.  hell, even easier in some cases
 212 2012-09-27 03:47:13 <jgarzik> kjj_: that involves applications and waiting periods and requires permanent addresses, though, right?
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 214 2012-09-27 03:47:38 <kjj_> heh.  been a while since you got a checking account?
 215 2012-09-27 03:47:52 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: well, you could also store, for instance, the service url and a user id/name on the stick, then use the 'key' material you mention as one factor and the pin as the second factor for auth and the remote service could spit back that info
 216 2012-09-27 03:48:35 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: that way harming the usb stick doesn't hurt anything at all except cause annoyance
 217 2012-09-27 03:49:17 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: yep.  that is largely what I was thinking of as "identity token"
 218 2012-09-27 03:49:40 <jgarzik> just a way to locate the user's account, and proceed further
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 220 2012-09-27 03:51:04 <jgarzik> The main goal for me is user experience:  slot a credstick, receive money.  slot a credstick, enter additional authentication factor on vendor's POS, send money to vendor.
 221 2012-09-27 03:51:49 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 222 2012-09-27 03:52:38 <jgarzik> No [visible] bitcoin addresses or QR codes required.
 223 2012-09-27 03:53:18 <jgarzik> Put as few or as many "monetary identities" on there as you like.
 224 2012-09-27 03:53:45 <jrmithdobbs> i think the auth should still be required to receive
 225 2012-09-27 03:54:24 <jrmithdobbs> otherwise, malicious "readers" have the oppurtunity to overwrite the identities and possibly trick you into having someone transfer them money instead of you
 226 2012-09-27 03:56:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 227 2012-09-27 03:58:20 <jgarzik> what is the point of reception, though?
 228 2012-09-27 03:58:29 <jgarzik> * a skimmer could send money to third party, rather than the vendor
 229 2012-09-27 03:58:48 <jgarzik> * skimmer could add their own id tokens, corrupt id tokens, or delete id tokens
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 232 2012-09-27 04:03:45 <jrmithdobbs> well, deletion isn't very useful outside of annoyance so putting that scenario aside ... with replacing/corrupting/adding ids the benefit to not immediately hijacking the current transaction is useful in obscuring the source of the attack
 233 2012-09-27 04:04:08 <jrmithdobbs> s/useful in/that it/
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 235 2012-09-27 04:05:58 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: eg, it enables cases like in the debit card system where beige boxing the POTS line can go unnoticed much longer than directly modifying the transactions (even though having access to do one almost always gives you access to do the other)
 236 2012-09-27 04:07:13 <jgarzik> ahhh.  I think I was misunderstanding you.  You are suggesting an auth factor to receive _money_, right?  I mistakenly thought you meant an auth factor to receive data onto the stick, which seemed untenable.
 237 2012-09-27 04:07:15 <jgarzik> nvm
 238 2012-09-27 04:07:17 <jrmithdobbs> a local resturaunt here had their line beige boxed for ~3-6 months before they (LEO/CC companies) were able to identify the source of the issue
 239 2012-09-27 04:07:30 <jgarzik> yeah, requiring an auth factor to receive money makes sense
 240 2012-09-27 04:07:43 <jrmithdobbs> oh, ya, sorry, I'm probably not communicating too well. Way too much sinus meds :(
 241 2012-09-27 04:08:29 <jrmithdobbs> (that's a true, sad, story btw :( )
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 243 2012-09-27 04:09:35 <jgarzik> does not seem possible to avoid skimmers stealing vendor (not customer) money, at POS
 244 2012-09-27 04:10:04 <jgarzik> well, call it MITM money :) at the point of transfer
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 251 2012-09-27 04:18:23 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: not sure i'm willing to go as far as not possible, but it's definitely a hard problem
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 345 2012-09-27 07:24:45 <jgarzik> CP-ABE software, GPL'd: http://acsc.cs.utexas.edu/cpabe/
 346 2012-09-27 07:25:06 <Diablo-D3> whats it do?
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 351 2012-09-27 07:29:52 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: makes possible pay-to-policy outputs, according to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92421.0
 352 2012-09-27 07:30:07 <Diablo-D3> ahh
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 441 2012-09-27 10:22:57 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, can you think of anything that requires an alignment of more than 8 bytes?
 442 2012-09-27 10:26:25 <OneEyed> gmaxwell: some SSE2/3 instructions?
 443 2012-09-27 10:26:25 MrMeow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 445 2012-09-27 10:26:45 <OneEyed> Oops, meant Diablo-D3 :)
 446 2012-09-27 10:26:57 coblee has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 447 2012-09-27 10:27:01 <Diablo-D3> I thought sse only needed 8
 448 2012-09-27 10:27:04 <Diablo-D3> not 16
 449 2012-09-27 10:27:37 <OneEyed> http://bmagic.sourceforge.net/bmsse2opt.html
 450 2012-09-27 10:27:46 <OneEyed> "In SSE2 mode all bitwise block pointers must be 16-byte aligned to avoid crashes."
 451 2012-09-27 10:27:56 <Diablo-D3> well fuck.
 452 2012-09-27 10:27:56 <OneEyed> (just one answer from Google, I haven't read nor endorse this page)
 453 2012-09-27 10:28:08 <OneEyed> (just rang a bell when you asked)
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 456 2012-09-27 10:32:18 <gavinandresen> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113400  is the big September announcement
 457 2012-09-27 10:32:45 stamit has quit (Quit: stamit)
 458 2012-09-27 10:33:23 <Diablo-D3> nice
 459 2012-09-27 10:33:51 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 462 2012-09-27 10:36:29 <stamit> next thing you know, we'll have bitcoin install-fests
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 468 2012-09-27 10:48:49 <epscy> finally
 469 2012-09-27 10:49:17 <epscy> i was having trouble sleeping at night due to the anticipation
 470 2012-09-27 10:49:26 <gavinandresen> me too!
 471 2012-09-27 10:50:18 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 474 2012-09-27 10:50:31 <epscy> uh
 475 2012-09-27 10:50:35 xisalty has joined
 476 2012-09-27 10:50:52 <epscy> are these numbers correct? https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/support
 477 2012-09-27 10:51:15 <Joric> what was that major septembers announcement? sorry i'm late
 478 2012-09-27 10:51:46 <epscy> gavin announced that he is revoking everyones bitcoins
 479 2012-09-27 10:51:58 <gavinandresen> U CAN HAZ NO MORE!
 480 2012-09-27 10:52:43 <sturles> All new bitcoins will be colored pink!
 481 2012-09-27 10:53:51 <Diablo-D3> how can you tell if they're invisible?
 482 2012-09-27 10:54:29 <Joric> found it https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113400
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 484 2012-09-27 10:55:52 <Joric> https://www.bitcoinfoundation.com says ssl error in chrome
 485 2012-09-27 10:56:56 balrog has joined
 486 2012-09-27 10:56:57 <Joric> 'server's certificate does not match the url'
 487 2012-09-27 10:57:08 <gavinandresen> try .org
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 489 2012-09-27 10:57:23 <Joric> yeah i noticed it was issued to org
 490 2012-09-27 10:57:55 <Joric> but that forum post is linked to .com
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 492 2012-09-27 10:58:46 <gavinandresen> bah, fixed....
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 512 2012-09-27 11:31:06 <kjj_> You should make Theymos link forum titles to the foundation roster
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 522 2012-09-27 11:52:02 <robocoin> Thanks Gavin and the others*, this is only professional
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 527 2012-09-27 12:02:09 <freewil> Gavin for central bank chairman!
 528 2012-09-27 12:02:18 <freewil> i only kid
 529 2012-09-27 12:03:25 <Joric> Bitcoin CEO to cease all operations from this day to forever
 530 2012-09-27 12:04:03 <Joric> "the company just wasn't profitable", said Gavin Andresen
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 548 2012-09-27 12:27:56 <_dr> resp. sse2, 16-bit aligned (because sse is 128bit)
 549 2012-09-27 12:28:22 <_dr> but since nehalem there's almost all sse instructions come in an 'unaligned' flavor with almost no performance issues
 550 2012-09-27 12:29:52 <slush1> gavinandresen: thank you for the effort with foundation, I appreciate some covering organisation like this, so Bitcoin project doesn't act as a group of psychopath individuals.
 551 2012-09-27 12:31:17 leotreasure has joined
 552 2012-09-27 12:31:32 <slush1> gavinandresen: on other hand, I think that membership prices are simply out of scale. I can understand Premier membership, but even SIlver membership is simply too high for most of bitcoin business.
 553 2012-09-27 12:32:57 tower has joined
 554 2012-09-27 12:33:48 <doublec> how do foundation members communicate? Is there a mailing list? How do they vote? I guess there's lots more information coming so people paying for membership know what they're getting?
 555 2012-09-27 12:34:37 <epscy> can anyone propose something to be voted on?
 556 2012-09-27 12:34:53 <slush1> Bitcoin is still pretty small and there are only few serious bitcoin businesses who can afford such prices. Except that you're asking for support by HYIP scams and drug dealers.
 557 2012-09-27 12:34:58 <epscy> I have always though we should change the name to BitCredits
 558 2012-09-27 12:35:09 <doublec> slush1: what do you think would be a better price for silver?
 559 2012-09-27 12:35:50 <doublec> also, for those not US based, what is "fall 2012". Autumn? Is that 4th quarter?
 560 2012-09-27 12:36:28 <freewil> 3rd quarter
 561 2012-09-27 12:36:28 <slush1> doublec: not sure if I need "silver membership", but I can imagine some "industry membership" category for 100 BTC annually.
 562 2012-09-27 12:36:44 <freewil> fall = autumn
 563 2012-09-27 12:36:49 <gavinandresen> slush1: I don't know nuthin about setting corporate membership prices for foundations...
 564 2012-09-27 12:37:06 <gavinandresen> doublec: how would you like to communicate?
 565 2012-09-27 12:37:28 <gavinandresen> I was serious when I said I want the Foundation to be member-driven...
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 567 2012-09-27 12:37:44 <doublec> gavinandresen: I'd start with a mailing list for members
 568 2012-09-27 12:37:57 <epscy> we should all congregate in a mansion, like in eyes wide shut
 569 2012-09-27 12:38:11 <doublec> freewil: thanks
 570 2012-09-27 12:39:13 <doublec> preferably one with a public archive but I'm sure that'd be a member thing to decide
 571 2012-09-27 12:40:10 <gavinandresen> and RE: how will voting be done:  I dunno, that will have to be figured out  (maybe a web page with an email loop to authenticate)
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 577 2012-09-27 12:42:34 <_dr> i certainly hope premium members get double votes :)
 578 2012-09-27 12:42:35 <doublec> membership dues are re-evaluated on dec 31, presumably by some form of decision by the board, so gavinandresen you get to learn about setting prices :)
 579 2012-09-27 12:42:39 <_dr> way to delegate voting to people with $$$
 580 2012-09-27 12:43:30 <epscy> doublec: or they just use the current prices and adjust for any significant change in the price of BTC
 581 2012-09-27 12:43:35 <slush1> Well, I just paid individual membership for myself, but I really cannot afford 500 BTC for adding my pool into the game. And foundation is losing something like 97.5 BTC annually just because it don't offer some reasonable prices for small business.
 582 2012-09-27 12:43:57 <gavinandresen> the board will re-evaluate pricing based on how successful sign-ups are, etc etc
 583 2012-09-27 12:44:19 <gavinandresen> I mostly nodded off during the "how should we price memberships" discussions.
 584 2012-09-27 12:44:59 <epscy> 10,000 btc isn't cool, you know what's cool?
 585 2012-09-27 12:44:59 <gavinandresen> slush1: how many employees do you have?  Or are you basically a single-person company?
 586 2012-09-27 12:45:10 <gavinandresen> 11,000 btc
 587 2012-09-27 12:45:37 <slush1> gavinandresen: I'm single person
 588 2012-09-27 12:46:42 <gavinandresen> ... so an individual membership makes sense, right?
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 590 2012-09-27 12:47:08 <doublec> that would depend on what voting power is between the differnet membership levels
 591 2012-09-27 12:47:37 <doublec> as a pool that contributes and is reliant on the bitcoin economy slush1 might want a different type of voting level
 592 2012-09-27 12:47:38 <epscy> 1 btc = 1 vote
 593 2012-09-27 12:47:40 <slush1> gavinandresen: still, I wanted to represent my business, not me personally
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 595 2012-09-27 12:48:26 <gmaxwell> slush1: it's /only/ what, a months income for you? :P
 596 2012-09-27 12:49:11 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, come up with various rules and have people pledge funds if those rules are accepted as the foundation voting guidelines
 597 2012-09-27 12:49:18 <phantomcircuit> whichever rules gets the most funds wins
 598 2012-09-27 12:49:20 <phantomcircuit> simple enough
 599 2012-09-27 12:49:27 <gavinandresen> slush1: ok.  Nothing is set in stone (and the Linux Foundation has a much more complicated corporate membership fee structure, so there is precedent)
 600 2012-09-27 12:49:38 <slush1> gmaxwell: well, I'm not going to pay 10% of my income just for membership in organisation.
 601 2012-09-27 12:49:54 <slush1> gmaxwell: and to answer your question, I'm still in loss for this year, because of Linode hack
 602 2012-09-27 12:50:31 <phantomcircuit> slush1, did you get a credit from linode?
 603 2012-09-27 12:50:42 <gavinandresen> they gave us a free year of hosting!  wheee!
 604 2012-09-27 12:50:49 <slush1> I get "5 months of free linode", something like 500$
 605 2012-09-27 12:51:01 <phantomcircuit> same with bitcoinica
 606 2012-09-27 12:51:06 <slush1> or maybe a year, I don't remember. Not enough for my loss
 607 2012-09-27 12:51:08 <phantomcircuit> should have told them no and sued :|
 608 2012-09-27 12:51:20 <gavinandresen> TOS makes that a non-starter
 609 2012-09-27 12:51:34 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, no but it would make them settle for more than $400
 610 2012-09-27 12:51:41 <slush1> phantomcircuit: it's not so easy, I'm based in EU, they're in USA. The cost for the court is many times higher than the money lost
 611 2012-09-27 12:51:43 <phantomcircuit> that's like an hour of decent attorney time
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 616 2012-09-27 12:52:36 <phantomcircuit> also distributed exchange == byzantine fault tolerance problem
 617 2012-09-27 12:52:47 <gmaxwell> slush1: crazy that they didn't go all out and give you a full year at least.
 618 2012-09-27 12:52:53 <phantomcircuit> only realized that after i started writting it
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 638 2012-09-27 13:26:09 <freewil> whos setting up the BitcoinPAC?
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 645 2012-09-27 13:39:57 <Graet> <slush1> gavinandresen: still, I wanted to represent my business, not me personally  <, this was also my thought when i posted in the thread
 646 2012-09-27 13:39:58 <Graet> :)
 647 2012-09-27 13:40:13 <slush1> :)
 648 2012-09-27 13:40:48 <Graet> i love that a foundation is being set up :) much needed
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 650 2012-09-27 13:44:04 <gavinandresen> RE: cost of membership:  see http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/bylaws   (scroll to the bottom) for Linux foundation costs (their lowest corporate level: $5,000)
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 654 2012-09-27 13:50:46 <Graet> 500BTC = $6000
 655 2012-09-27 13:51:12 <Graet> an most bitcoinh businesses are starups. not established like a lot of linux foundation supporters
 656 2012-09-27 13:51:55 <slush1> exactly, you cannot compare bitcoin and linux at this stage
 657 2012-09-27 13:53:23 <gmaxwell> How many linux foundation corporate members are one person companies?
 658 2012-09-27 13:53:56 <slush1> how many bitcoin businesses are multi-person companies?
 659 2012-09-27 13:54:18 <phantomcircuit> about 5
 660 2012-09-27 13:54:19 <gmaxwell> How many bitcoin business are pure scams? :P
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 662 2012-09-27 13:54:32 <phantomcircuit> about a lot
 663 2012-09-27 13:54:50 <edcba> a lot of ppl says bitcoin is ponzi scheme but capitalism looks like ponzi scheme too
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 665 2012-09-27 13:54:58 <slush1> well, better question: How many bitcoin businesses are *real* companies? ;)
 666 2012-09-27 13:55:08 <Graet> mine is
 667 2012-09-27 13:55:10 <Graet> :)
 668 2012-09-27 13:55:10 <edcba> (the more money you have the more money you get)
 669 2012-09-27 13:55:20 <phantomcircuit> slush1, that's a good question actually
 670 2012-09-27 13:55:23 <Graet> doesnt mean it is making huge profits though
 671 2012-09-27 13:55:30 <jeremias> to me it seems like there is a strong demand for ponzi schemes, therefore it is natural for market ro produce them
 672 2012-09-27 13:55:40 <Graet> its one i raised in the pools fourm an got pooh-poohed for....
 673 2012-09-27 13:55:43 <jeremias> ro=to
 674 2012-09-27 13:55:48 <gavinandresen> I think we'll see a lot more well-funded companies appear over the next year.
 675 2012-09-27 13:55:57 <phantomcircuit> jeremias, there is
 676 2012-09-27 13:55:57 <gmaxwell> slush1: I don't disagree that some small business option might make sense. But we are talking about a 'guy with a webserver' level of business at that point; which I think is probably better fit by indivigual membership.
 677 2012-09-27 13:56:00 <phantomcircuit> it's ridiculous
 678 2012-09-27 13:56:14 <Graet> thats great, but why exclude the ones that have supported bitcoin so far?
 679 2012-09-27 13:56:32 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, there just isn't enough money to be made for strong financing to appear
 680 2012-09-27 13:56:32 <Graet> re well funded companies
 681 2012-09-27 13:56:37 <gmaxwell> Otherwise if the barrier is excessivel low you'll just see people creating bitcoin businesses-in-name-only for the sake of inflating the voting influence.
 682 2012-09-27 13:56:42 <phantomcircuit> although maybe the massive tech bubble in sv wont care
 683 2012-09-27 13:57:35 <Graet> are you allowing "any bitcoin buiness" or only bitcoin businesses that are properly registered in thier jurisdiction?
 684 2012-09-27 13:57:59 <helo> there will be money to be made as bitcoin's reputation matures
 685 2012-09-27 13:58:29 <jeremias> gmaxwell: what prevents people from voting multiple times anyway?
 686 2012-09-27 13:58:36 <jeremias> or registering with several identities
 687 2012-09-27 13:58:51 <gavinandresen> Graet: I don't think the foundation will want to get into figuring out what "properly registered" means for businesses all over the world... but the bylaws state that members can be removed by a vote of the board
 688 2012-09-27 13:59:33 <gavinandresen> (the plan was to have the bylaws up on the website at launch, that fell through the cracks... we'll be making a TO FIX list)
 689 2012-09-27 14:00:35 <gmaxwell> jeremias: the cost of a membership combined with the grouping of seats by member class.
 690 2012-09-27 14:00:39 <gavinandresen> jeremias: plugging into an identity-checking service is on the short-term TODO
 691 2012-09-27 14:00:50 <gmaxwell> ^ and that, apparently! :P
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 694 2012-09-27 14:02:48 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i've yet to find one that isn't trivially fooled
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 697 2012-09-27 14:04:16 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: ok.  I think the combination of costing 2.5 BTC per identity plus best-effort identity checking will work, but we'll see
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 699 2012-09-27 14:05:22 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
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 701 2012-09-27 14:09:07 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: keep in mind, someone trying to create trouble has to create a lot of identities.. not just two or three. As you create more your chances of being discovered and losing all your effort increases.
 702 2012-09-27 14:12:06 <gavinandresen> the payoff isn't very good, either-- worst case, you manage to single-handedly elect two board members.  Who must be real people, and who can be outvoted or even removed by the other 3 board members if they're psychotic or something.
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 705 2012-09-27 14:16:13 <gmaxwell> Right, thats was my point wrt "grouping of seats by member class", but it's also why it's important that the business seats be protected either by higher fees, greater validation, or both.. So they can't be attached in the same way.
 706 2012-09-27 14:16:18 <gmaxwell> er attacked.
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 708 2012-09-27 14:23:58 <Joric> i just spent a hour trying to compile '[8:15:54 PM] Kirill Kyalundzyuga (Shaman): unsinged int
 709 2012-09-27 14:23:59 <Joric> хм. кому невоспетый инт? :)
 710 2012-09-27 14:24:20 <Joric> lol
 711 2012-09-27 14:24:46 <Joric> sorry
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 730 2012-09-27 14:56:14 <TD> hey
 731 2012-09-27 14:56:25 <TD> gavinandresen: congrats on the launch. superb execution, feeling really positive about that
 732 2012-09-27 14:56:50 <gavinandresen> TD: thanks! the other Board members did most of the work
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 742 2012-09-27 15:05:30 <TD> sipa: poke
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 751 2012-09-27 15:22:00 <TD> gavinandresen: will the foundation also have a process for handling press enquiries ?
 752 2012-09-27 15:22:06 <TD> i guess press@bitcoin.org should forward there now?
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 802 2012-09-27 16:35:16 <jgarzik> yay, bitcoin foundation is out
 803 2012-09-27 16:35:25 * jgarzik reads scrollback
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 805 2012-09-27 16:38:17 <sebicas> Not sure if you already know, but wiki is down https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/
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 809 2012-09-27 16:42:01 <amiller> whoa, the bitcoin foundation is really cool
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 815 2012-09-27 16:48:39 <Diapolo> I'm currently trying to setup a Gitian VM from Gavins notes ... hope I get all sorted out :D.
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 840 2012-09-27 17:09:54 <Diapolo> Do I need to run make-base-vm for i386 AND amd64 while seting up gitian?
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 847 2012-09-27 17:15:37 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: whats the status of getting pull-tester to use github's pull status api? Does it have to use oauth?
 848 2012-09-27 17:15:57 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: no idea, I didn't dig in to figure it out
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 850 2012-09-27 17:16:11 <BlueMatt> oh, darn, I thought you did
 851 2012-09-27 17:16:28 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: if you want to build Linux binaries, then yes you need both -32 and -64 vms
 852 2012-09-27 17:16:49 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: I don't remember which VM the windows build uses
 853 2012-09-27 17:16:55 <TD> BlueMatt: i just realized that when you rebase/re-push your fullverif branch it'll blow away all the M: notes i made :( could you maybe push the new version to a new branch instead so i can see the old notes?
 854 2012-09-27 17:17:29 <BlueMatt> TD: ack, also, sorry I havent really started redoing the stuff I said I would yet...at least I have no class on fridays :)
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 858 2012-09-27 17:20:08 <sipa> TD: currently on the road to Switzerland :)
 859 2012-09-27 17:20:43 <TD> sipa: sweet!
 860 2012-09-27 17:20:50 <TD> we'll have to grab a drink next week
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 862 2012-09-27 17:21:12 <Diapolo> gavinandresen: thanks, I'll try it further
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 865 2012-09-27 17:21:31 <sipa> i should be there in a few hours
 866 2012-09-27 17:21:44 <Diapolo> I added --lxc to the make-base-vm as I got errors before ...
 867 2012-09-27 17:21:51 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: I think my notes left out one step that is mentioned in the gitian-builder github README (setting up networking on the VM...)
 868 2012-09-27 17:22:06 <sipa> TD: yes, definitely
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 872 2012-09-27 17:24:39 <Diapolo> gavinandresen: Where can I find that part with network setup? It's not in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/README
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 874 2012-09-27 17:25:20 <gavinandresen> Diapolo: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder
 875 2012-09-27 17:25:29 <gavinandresen> "The machine configuration requires access to br0 and assumes that the host address is 10.0.2.2:"
 876 2012-09-27 17:25:47 <Diapolo> yeah that is currently not fulfilled
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 879 2012-09-27 17:27:44 <Diapolo> When I execute:
 880 2012-09-27 17:27:45 <Diapolo> sudo brctl addbr br0
 881 2012-09-27 17:28:26 <Diapolo> and sudo ifconfig br0 10.0.2.2/24 up the nat to use normal internet in the Ubuntu VM is still working?
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 883 2012-09-27 17:30:11 <Diapolo> yes it does ^^
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 888 2012-09-27 17:34:33 <Diapolo> fatal: ambiguous argument 'HEAD': unknown revision or path not in the working tree.
 889 2012-09-27 17:34:35 <Diapolo> :-/
 890 2012-09-27 17:34:58 <Diapolo> ./bin/gbuild:204: error looking up commit for tag HEAD (RuntimeError)
 891 2012-09-27 17:34:58 <Diapolo> 	from ./bin/gbuild:191:in `each'
 892 2012-09-27 17:34:58 <Diapolo> 	from ./bin/gbuild:191
 893 2012-09-27 17:35:38 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 894 2012-09-27 17:35:43 <gavinandresen> try v0.7.0 instead of HEAD
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 898 2012-09-27 17:36:41 <Diapolo> says making a new image copy let's see
 899 2012-09-27 17:36:48 Arch_Coldfire has joined
 900 2012-09-27 17:37:42 <Diapolo> nv20
 901 2012-09-27 17:38:17 lggr has joined
 902 2012-09-27 17:40:45 <Diapolo> Are these non-persistent? I had to re enter these after a VM reboot:
 903 2012-09-27 17:40:45 <Diapolo> sudo brctl addbr br0
 904 2012-09-27 17:40:45 <Diapolo> sudo ifconfig br0 10.0.2.2/24 up
 905 2012-09-27 17:41:16 <gavinandresen> i don't know nuthin about network configuration in a VM....
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 908 2012-09-27 17:41:55 <Diapolo> and I know nothing about Linux internals ^^ I'll fiddle around, thanks for now Gavin
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 910 2012-09-27 17:45:18 <Diapolo> it seems it started building now :D
 911 2012-09-27 17:46:39 <BlueMatt> ifconfig/brctl is never persistent
 912 2012-09-27 17:46:52 <BlueMatt> (if (debian) see /etc/network/interfaces)
 913 2012-09-27 17:47:50 <Diapolo> I now have build/out/bin/32/bitcoind and bitcoin-qt
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 919 2012-09-27 17:54:37 <Diapolo> how cool is that, bitcoin-qt x64 is running under Ubuntu :-D
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 921 2012-09-27 18:00:29 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:51:59 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000285f407  height=200781  work=503090397358087352328  date=09/27/12 17:51:17
 922 2012-09-27 18:00:29 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:51:59 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
 923 2012-09-27 18:00:30 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:51:59 Flushing wallet.dat
 924 2012-09-27 18:00:30 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:51:59 Flushed wallet.dat 43ms
 925 2012-09-27 18:00:30 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:52:00 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
 926 2012-09-27 18:00:31 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:52:00 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
 927 2012-09-27 18:00:33 <jgarzik> 09/27/12 17:52:04 getblocks -1 to 00000000000000000000 limit 500
 928 2012-09-27 18:00:37 <jgarzik> such weird behavior
 929 2012-09-27 18:00:43 <jgarzik> nodes behave as if they are stuck at block 0
 930 2012-09-27 18:00:58 <jgarzik> (unless there's another condition I'm missing that creates -1/0 getblocks)
 931 2012-09-27 18:01:18 * jgarzik sees this consistently on every node, public or private
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 935 2012-09-27 18:05:18 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: iirc thats the "give me your current head" request
 936 2012-09-27 18:05:24 <BlueMatt> or something like that..
 937 2012-09-27 18:07:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it returns the genesis block AFAICS
 938 2012-09-27 18:07:57 <jgarzik>         // Find the last block the caller has in the main chain
 939 2012-09-27 18:07:58 <jgarzik>         CBlockIndex* pindex = locator.GetBlockIndex();
 940 2012-09-27 18:08:15 <BlueMatt> give me a sec, it does something fun...
 941 2012-09-27 18:08:18 <jgarzik> GetBlockIndex() returns pindexGenesisBlock, if hash search fails
 942 2012-09-27 18:08:47 <BlueMatt> (or it uselessly is requested on every new connection and someone thought it did something fun)
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 947 2012-09-27 18:19:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hmm...maybe I was dreaming, I dont see where it was, but I have seen it all the time...
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 949 2012-09-27 18:21:03 * BlueMatt just remembered using it in the block acceptance tester...(but it checks if you have blocks first, so...)
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 961 2012-09-27 18:34:19 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD should ChainSplitTest.testForking3 and ChainSplitTest.testDoubleSpendOnForkPending be broken on master?
 962 2012-09-27 18:34:19 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 976 2012-09-27 18:50:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: is there a way to get-top-hash via P2P, without requesting the entire chain?
 977 2012-09-27 18:50:37 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I'd love to know
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 979 2012-09-27 18:50:57 <jgarzik> gettophash seems like a reasonable P2P addition. Makes reverse-header-sync easier.
 980 2012-09-27 18:53:23 <BlueMatt> oh, hey, wikis down
 981 2012-09-27 18:53:25 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux: ^
 982 2012-09-27 18:53:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: cant recall one off the top of my head...and yea, would be nice
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 986 2012-09-27 19:00:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: reverse-header-sync will ultimately need something that can pipeline, having to do one call per header would be pretty poor for performance. Though, yes, getting the top would be useful. And I don't believe we have a way to do that (beyond waiting for a new block)
 987 2012-09-27 19:01:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: sure there are expensive ways to get-top:  getheaders stream
 988 2012-09-27 19:01:13 <jgarzik> forward walk is better than waiting
 989 2012-09-27 19:01:19 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
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 993 2012-09-27 19:06:37 <gmaxwell> holy really fast blocks batman.
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 995 2012-09-27 19:07:25 <gmaxwell> for a bit there every time I ran getinfo it was a new best block 0_o
 996 2012-09-27 19:08:05 <TD> jgarzik: 00000 is the stop hash
 997 2012-09-27 19:08:09 <TD> jgarzik: it just means "don't stop"
 998 2012-09-27 19:08:30 <jgarzik> TD: nod
 999 2012-09-27 19:08:36 <jgarzik> TD: and -1 means 'start at genesis'
1000 2012-09-27 19:08:52 <jgarzik> TD: thus, these nodes are requesting the first 500 blocks of the chain... each time a new network block appears
1001 2012-09-27 19:09:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: oh maybe those are freeking altocoin nodes that use the same protocol version.
1002 2012-09-27 19:10:02 <TD> can't you use getpeerinfo to find out what they are?
1003 2012-09-27 19:10:06 <gmaxwell> and they're rejecting block 1
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1006 2012-09-27 19:13:25 <jgarzik> TD: they appear to be satoshi clients all
1007 2012-09-27 19:13:34 <TD> that's weird indeed
1008 2012-09-27 19:13:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ^
1009 2012-09-27 19:13:39 <jgarzik> at least reporting such
1010 2012-09-27 19:13:47 <TD> i was wondering if there was another bcj bug
1011 2012-09-27 19:13:57 <TD> guess not. assuming you mean the subver is set
1012 2012-09-27 19:14:06 <jgarzik> in some cases
1013 2012-09-27 19:14:15 <jgarzik> others too old 4 subver
1014 2012-09-27 19:14:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: are these the 'your feed got truncated, keep going' prods?
1015 2012-09-27 19:15:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no, local, behind fw
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1017 2012-09-27 19:15:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: though not sure what you mean by "feed got truncated"  exmulti's public nodes are always vanilla bitcoin.git material
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1029 2012-09-27 19:26:43 <TD> BlueMatt: no obviously not. i don't see any failures on my clones master branch, it lacks only the testnet3 patch
1030 2012-09-27 19:26:45 <TD> perhaps that's what broke it
1031 2012-09-27 19:26:51 <TD> some unit tests do use testnet params, i think
1032 2012-09-27 19:27:10 <TD> devrandom: did you run all the tests before pushing that change to masteR?
1033 2012-09-27 19:28:35 <BlueMatt> TD: I believe testnet3 is NetworkParameters.testNet3()
1034 2012-09-27 19:29:38 <BlueMatt> TD: odd...I just pulled too...
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1036 2012-09-27 19:31:04 <BlueMatt> TD: no its the same failure that it used to be a while ago...ClassCastException
1037 2012-09-27 19:31:22 <BlueMatt> TD: Wallet.java:1987 (cast Transaction to java.lang.Comparable)
1038 2012-09-27 19:31:58 <TD> oh right, that
1039 2012-09-27 19:32:01 <TD> there's already a bug filed on that
1040 2012-09-27 19:32:03 <TD> i'll fix it soon
1041 2012-09-27 19:32:08 <TD> change the TreeSet to a HashSet and it'll go away
1042 2012-09-27 19:32:35 <BlueMatt> alright, as long as its not something wieid on my machine
1043 2012-09-27 19:32:39 <BlueMatt> weird*
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1049 2012-09-27 19:44:25 <TD> BlueMatt: the unit tests aren't 100% deterministic due to some things containing timestamps, signatures, etc
1050 2012-09-27 19:47:08 <jgarzik> The Economist writes about bitcoin: http://www.economist.com/node/21563752
1051 2012-09-27 19:47:18 <jgarzik> SIGH, "Bitcoins tend not to be very secure, says Richard Booth, a consultant at RSA, a cyber-security firm"
1052 2012-09-27 19:49:48 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1053 2012-09-27 19:49:55 <upb> and he's right, because of all the professionals smashing together banks and exchanges in php and ruby :)
1054 2012-09-27 19:49:58 <gmaxwell> article makes it sounds like bitcoin began at the end of 2010.
1055 2012-09-27 19:50:19 <TD> yes
1056 2012-09-27 19:50:22 <TD> well
1057 2012-09-27 19:50:27 <TD> i commented on it
1058 2012-09-27 19:50:32 <Eliel> well, at least it doesn't completely scrap the concept :)
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1060 2012-09-27 19:50:44 <TD> that reminds me. there's still no official way to get a callback when coins are received, is there?
1061 2012-09-27 19:50:46 <Eliel> those obvious discrepancies might motivate some people to research more.
1062 2012-09-27 19:50:50 <gmaxwell> Otherwise it seems fairl reasonable.
1063 2012-09-27 19:51:04 <TD> the whole thing with using offline/cold wallets on websites is sort of a non starter if everyone ends up using bitpay because the satoshi client is too hard to integrate
1064 2012-09-27 19:51:05 <gmaxwell> s/fairl/fairly/
1065 2012-09-27 19:51:40 <amiller> "This may explain why users put up with a big drawback. Bitcoins tend not to be very secure," is a total non sequitur. the fact that a shady online market place of criminals is thriving is evidence that it's very secure
1066 2012-09-27 19:51:55 <gmaxwell> TD: for just a watch only thing for a website it would seem to me that something bitcoinj based would be better: a lot of people want to run this stuff on highly resource constrained VPSes.
1067 2012-09-27 19:52:23 <BlueMatt> TD: can I just drop the length caching stuff, things like txes arent child messages to blocks, and other edge cases sound hard to get right...
1068 2012-09-27 19:52:26 <TD> yeah. i've been thinking about writing a simple server that just makes POSTs to some configurable localhost URL when coins arrive
1069 2012-09-27 19:52:33 <gmaxwell> amiller: it's 'observational security' like the effectiveness of birthcontrol: operator error dominates the failure rate; though it's not equally distributed.
1070 2012-09-27 19:52:44 <TD> BlueMatt: honestly yeah. shads never really provided convincing evidence it helped
1071 2012-09-27 19:52:51 <TD> if we need to we can always go and micro-optimize again later
1072 2012-09-27 19:52:59 <BlueMatt> alright
1073 2012-09-27 19:53:46 <BlueMatt> well...actually maybe Ill just set length to unknown whenever something changes...doing .bitcoinserialize().length is really dumb
1074 2012-09-27 19:53:47 <gmaxwell> TD: right, ideally something you could just register addresses to watch .. and it tells you whenever their confirmation status changes.. or the like.
1075 2012-09-27 19:54:08 <jgarzik> TD: useful idea...
1076 2012-09-27 19:54:35 <gmaxwell> s/their confirmation status/the confirmation status of txn assigned to them/
1077 2012-09-27 19:54:36 <TD> gmaxwell: yes. that said, merchants should be running full nodes
1078 2012-09-27 19:54:46 <TD> i don't like the idea of merchants using SPV clients because of a crappy VPS
1079 2012-09-27 19:54:49 <TD> hrmm
1080 2012-09-27 19:54:50 <gmaxwell> TD: though perhaps not _on_ their vps.
1081 2012-09-27 19:55:01 <TD> yeah
1082 2012-09-27 19:55:14 <jgarzik> ideally merchants should be running at least two full nodes
1083 2012-09-27 19:55:23 <TD> maybe ultraprune will change the viability of running full nodes on disk-io starved setups
1084 2012-09-27 19:55:37 <jgarzik> DMZ
1085 2012-09-27 19:55:38 <Eliel> TD: you know, to properly screen for double spends, you'd need access to a network of servers.
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1087 2012-09-27 19:55:50 <lianj> jgarzik: or use a good webservice api
1088 2012-09-27 19:55:50 <gmaxwell> TD: It certantly will improve things; but people still spaz out.
1089 2012-09-27 19:55:54 <jgarzik> Eliel: and the ability to predict the future
1090 2012-09-27 19:56:03 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: uh...no, more like 4, 2 bitcoind, one bitcoinjs and (in the future) one bitcoinj, only accept what passes all or where the network is far passing it and bitcoind accepts it
1091 2012-09-27 19:56:07 <jgarzik> Eliel: because a miner can secretly mine a double-spend block, then -not- release it
1092 2012-09-27 19:56:15 <Eliel> jgarzik: the confirmations are good enough for that.
1093 2012-09-27 19:56:29 <gmaxwell> TD: e.g. VM vs RSS usage causes major confusion, and bitcoin uses a ton of address space.
1094 2012-09-27 19:56:34 <amiller> jgarzik, i dunno if you're interested in this and want me to make a pull request
1095 2012-09-27 19:56:42 <jgarzik> Eliel: sure, which invalidates "to properly screen for double spends, you'd need access to a network of servers."
1096 2012-09-27 19:56:42 <TD> it uses a ton of address space?
1097 2012-09-27 19:56:46 <Eliel> jgarzik: proper screening and you can accept smaller transactions instantly.
1098 2012-09-27 19:56:52 <TD> relative to its actual working set size? first i heard of that
1099 2012-09-27 19:56:54 <TD> where does it all go?
1100 2012-09-27 19:57:01 <TD> is bdb mmap-heavy or something?
1101 2012-09-27 19:57:01 <jgarzik> amiller: $this == ?
1102 2012-09-27 19:57:03 <amiller> jgarzik, but my latest version of pynode uses a log file for the blocks and a leveldb for the keys, and it is a lot more stable and fast past blocks 193x
1103 2012-09-27 19:57:10 <jgarzik> TD: BDB tries to be mmap heavy, yes
1104 2012-09-27 19:57:31 <TD> :(
1105 2012-09-27 19:57:33 <gmaxwell> e.g. random node here
1106 2012-09-27 19:57:34 <gmaxwell> 14943 gmaxwell  20   0  845m 118m 3772 S  0.0  3.0   0:20.54 bitcoind
1107 2012-09-27 19:57:42 <gmaxwell> 845m virt, 118 RES.
1108 2012-09-27 19:57:45 <lianj> BlueMatt: so accepting bitcoins is unfeasible for most small shops?
1109 2012-09-27 19:57:53 <TD> gah
1110 2012-09-27 19:57:55 <Eliel> jgarzik: the double spend attacks that require mining blocks are expensive enough that it's not worth it for small transactions. For those cases, a network of servers works.
1111 2012-09-27 19:57:58 <TD> hopefully ultraprune
1112 2012-09-27 19:57:59 <TD> +
1113 2012-09-27 19:58:00 <TD> oops
1114 2012-09-27 19:58:05 <TD> up+leveldb will improve that too
1115 2012-09-27 19:58:11 * gmaxwell checks
1116 2012-09-27 19:58:32 <BlueMatt> lianj: I dont see why a small shop would run their own nodes instead of outsourcing the whole payment processing thing to someone who does it well (many small shops already do that with paypal...)
1117 2012-09-27 19:58:38 <amiller> jgarzik, i am working right now on a way of doing rolling log files that can be resorted or pruned at a later stage
1118 2012-09-27 19:58:41 <Eliel> jgarzik: for transactions big enough to be worth attacking, the only solutions is to wait for confirmations
1119 2012-09-27 19:58:48 <lianj> BlueMatt: ack
1120 2012-09-27 19:58:52 <gmaxwell> haha
1121 2012-09-27 19:58:53 <BlueMatt> lianj: but, if you are not expecting great security, running one node would be ok...I suppose
1122 2012-09-27 19:58:53 <gmaxwell> 30723 bitcoin0  20   0 1434m 465m  65m S  1.0  2.9  49:56.07 bitcoind
1123 2012-09-27 19:58:56 <TD> BlueMatt: ideally there'd be as little centralization/outsourcing as possible
1124 2012-09-27 19:59:02 <gmaxwell> long running ultraprune+leveldb node
1125 2012-09-27 19:59:12 <gmaxwell> though that one has
1126 2012-09-27 19:59:13 <gmaxwell>     "connections" : 97,
1127 2012-09-27 19:59:24 <BlueMatt> lianj: I would expect exchanges and big holders/etc to have way more security/nodes
1128 2012-09-27 19:59:25 <TD> gmaxwell: have you got a page table dump from /proc for that?
1129 2012-09-27 19:59:29 <TD> would be interesting to know what it is
1130 2012-09-27 19:59:35 <TD> heap fragmentation seems a bit extreme for that
1131 2012-09-27 19:59:39 <jgarzik> amiller: definitely sounds interesting
1132 2012-09-27 19:59:44 <gmaxwell> TD: as far as I can tell the VM usage is not actually problematic except of a few weird shared hosts that use ulimit stupidly.. but it makes users with 512 MB VPSes panic.
1133 2012-09-27 19:59:50 <TD> right
1134 2012-09-27 19:59:57 <BlueMatt> TD ack, but its (to some extent) unavoidable (easier to have someone to blame/sue if something goes wrong ;) )
1135 2012-09-27 20:00:02 <TD> well if it's taking up 465mb rss with 512mb of ram, yeah, that's an issue :)
1136 2012-09-27 20:00:03 <jgarzik> amiller: hopefully it is not all One Big Commit and consistent with the rest of the code etc., then sure, interested in a pull req.
1137 2012-09-27 20:00:16 <amiller> jgarzik, i changed every one of your variables to camelCase
1138 2012-09-27 20:00:18 <gmaxwell> TD: we do have pretty high heap fragmentation: bitcoin uses stack allocation fairly sparingly; there is a lot of piddly heap allocation for temporaries.
1139 2012-09-27 20:00:22 <TD> i guess if you're running a web site on a machine no more powerful than a desktop (or less powerful) then SPV is unavoidable
1140 2012-09-27 20:00:25 <TD> or a payment processor
1141 2012-09-27 20:00:26 <jgarzik> hehe
1142 2012-09-27 20:00:42 <TD> gmaxwell: might be worth experimenting with tcmalloc at some point.
1143 2012-09-27 20:01:19 <gmaxwell> TD: previously that difference in usage between that node at the first I pasted on is the first has two connections. Though I thought we put the per socket buffering stuff on a diet recently.
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1146 2012-09-27 20:02:14 <gmaxwell> I have no idea how tcmalloc would interact with all the boost autofoo whih is responsible for most of the small heap allocations.
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1148 2012-09-27 20:02:35 <gmaxwell> I do know we're losing a fair amount of cpu time to heap allocation housekeeping now though.
1149 2012-09-27 20:02:39 <TD> :(
1150 2012-09-27 20:02:56 <TD> oh well. guess we know the next lowest hanging fruit after multi-threading sig checking
1151 2012-09-27 20:03:08 <TD> at least c++ lets you do stack alloc
1152 2012-09-27 20:03:10 <devrandom> TD: I thought I did
1153 2012-09-27 20:03:15 * TD stabs java
1154 2012-09-27 20:03:24 <TD> devrandom: yeah it was unrelated, sorry. no worries
1155 2012-09-27 20:03:33 <gmaxwell> <3 stack allocations.
1156 2012-09-27 20:03:46 <amiller> okay jgarzik, i rebased against your master and updated my currently-open pull request
1157 2012-09-27 20:03:46 <devrandom> np
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1160 2012-09-27 20:05:25 <TD> i wonder how intensive it'd be to have SPV clients (optionally) download full blocks and request all the input transactions and their merkle branches, so you can check the coinbase size
1161 2012-09-27 20:06:05 <amiller> i totally rebased wrong and made it one big commit.
1162 2012-09-27 20:06:19 <TD> i suspect it's not possible to reliably detect miners trying to issue themselves more money than allowed unless you do every check a full node does
1163 2012-09-27 20:06:24 <TD> but it'd be nice if it was possible
1164 2012-09-27 20:07:02 robocoin is now known as JennyFromTheBloc
1165 2012-09-27 20:07:07 JennyFromTheBloc is now known as robocoin
1166 2012-09-27 20:07:10 <amiller> and in rebasing i erased the history so i can't easily decompress it again
1167 2012-09-27 20:07:48 <TD> git is hard
1168 2012-09-27 20:07:52 <gmaxwell> TD: unfortunately no, because calculating fees means you need the inputs.
1169 2012-09-27 20:08:08 <gmaxwell> oh you said that. yea. :(
1170 2012-09-27 20:08:28 <TD> indeed. it means new blocks are bandwidth intensive but the data could all be thrown away afterwards
1171 2012-09-27 20:08:55 <gmaxwell> hm. you also could only save the total amount of bitcoin existing.
1172 2012-09-27 20:08:57 <TD> so it'd be cheap in IOPS and with some smart coding you could probably keep memory usage from being too spikey as well
1173 2012-09-27 20:09:15 <TD> i suspect most VPS setups are swamped with bandwidth and starved of cpu/disk/memory
1174 2012-09-27 20:09:41 <amiller> if SPV clients are mobile clients, then they are sometimes in range of wifi in which case bandwidth isn't such a problem
1175 2012-09-27 20:09:48 <amiller> so it's not just (optionally) but also (intermittently)
1176 2012-09-27 20:10:06 <gmaxwell> meh scratch that, no you can't darn.
1177 2012-09-27 20:10:24 <TD> amiller: i was thinking more for merchants
1178 2012-09-27 20:10:29 <TD> amiller: it's not feasible (today) for smartphones
1179 2012-09-27 20:10:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1180 2012-09-27 20:10:53 <amiller> this would also apply to merchants with 3g cards maybe
1181 2012-09-27 20:11:06 <amiller> you know, the kind of merchants that operate out of the backs of vans... i guess.
1182 2012-09-27 20:11:07 <TD> amiller: the scenario that concerns me is if many merchants end up using SPV clients (or a tiny number of payment processors), a conspiracy of miners+a few few processors could decide to change the inflation rules
1183 2012-09-27 20:11:18 <TD> and award themselves new money. it'd undermine the system completely.
1184 2012-09-27 20:11:22 <TD> SPV clients can't check
1185 2012-09-27 20:11:37 <TD> now for smartphones and laptops, ok, we shrug and say we give up. but mostly you aren't selling things of much value for that
1186 2012-09-27 20:11:55 <TD> when it really matters if if miners can take their new 51%+ chain with their new money and go spend it on cool stuff at big merchants
1187 2012-09-27 20:12:06 <amiller> i don't see why you say you should give up there, the intermittent option is still available
1188 2012-09-27 20:12:13 <TD> so it's important merchants run full nodes that can check the size of coinbases (and that every transaction actually does connect)
1189 2012-09-27 20:12:56 lggr has joined
1190 2012-09-27 20:12:56 <TD> unfortunately the setup we've got today is that many bitcoin merchants are low volume/specialist shops that use super cheap hosting that's barely any better than a regular desktop or laptop
1191 2012-09-27 20:13:17 <gmaxwell> TD: ultraprune helps a lot. But we still have a ways to go to reduce that pain. The problem is that no matter how awesome we make a full node there is just an enormous gap between that and some totally centeralized web service.
1192 2012-09-27 20:13:19 <TD> perhaps in the end it won't matter because the big/valuable parts of the economy would run full nodes
1193 2012-09-27 20:13:28 <amiller> "it means new blocks are bandwidth intensive but the data could all be thrown away afterwards" <--- i really like this statement and think it will be appropriate for a large class of users/clients/merchants
1194 2012-09-27 20:13:29 <gmaxwell> no no, _worse_ than a regular desktop or laptop.
1195 2012-09-27 20:13:38 Eslbaer has joined
1196 2012-09-27 20:13:44 <TD> yeah, worse :(
1197 2012-09-27 20:13:47 <TD> 512mb of ram :(
1198 2012-09-27 20:13:53 <gmaxwell> Those cheap VPS offering only 256 mb ram, and IO much slower than any desktop or laptop anyone would use today.
1199 2012-09-27 20:14:07 gfinn has joined
1200 2012-09-27 20:14:10 <TD> i guess it won't matter at the moment because the chances of such a miner conspiracy in the early days are imho really low
1201 2012-09-27 20:14:21 <gmaxwell> and it's not like _most_ businesses have high volume webpages.. so it works for their web usage.
1202 2012-09-27 20:14:30 <TD> and if the economy ends up huge, big professional merchants won't be running off crap VPS
1203 2012-09-27 20:14:48 <TD> and it won't be worth forking the economy just to buy things from small, unprofessional merchants
1204 2012-09-27 20:14:54 <TD> but it's still a scenario worth pondering
1205 2012-09-27 20:14:55 <gmaxwell> TD: but even on a nice system the gap between a full node and a HTTP get is still huge.
1206 2012-09-27 20:15:03 <TD> yeah
1207 2012-09-27 20:15:28 <gmaxwell> TD: well, esp if the hash rate falls due to declining subsidy. Then it might become fairly easy to fork the economy.
1208 2012-09-27 20:15:49 <gmaxwell> plus I worry more about payment services (as helpful as they are...) than SPV nodes...
1209 2012-09-27 20:16:08 <gmaxwell> One insecure stupid php form and you have a systemic risk hitting potentially thousands of merchants.
1210 2012-09-27 20:16:29 <TD> oh, no disagreement that SPV on a server is better than payment processors
1211 2012-09-27 20:16:31 Marf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1212 2012-09-27 20:16:41 <TD> i guess this stuff will sort itself out in time
1213 2012-09-27 20:16:47 <TD> as long as merchants understand the tradeoffs involved
1214 2012-09-27 20:16:50 <BlueMatt> better, but not necessarily more likely
1215 2012-09-27 20:16:58 <gmaxwell> And no one running big bitcoin businesses is actually insured or secured for the level of liability they have (I don't think they currently have the income to justify it)
1216 2012-09-27 20:17:03 <TD> well not with todays software that's for sure :-)
1217 2012-09-27 20:17:03 <BlueMatt> (the power to sue someone if you lose all your money is incredibly appealing)
1218 2012-09-27 20:17:08 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1219 2012-09-27 20:17:29 <TD> BlueMatt: insurance is more reliable, normally ...
1220 2012-09-27 20:17:40 <TD> after all, lawsuit != getting your money back
1221 2012-09-27 20:17:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: good luck getting money from a stone... a systemic risk from a major payment processor means you'll likely have nothing to recover.
1222 2012-09-27 20:17:46 <TD> in fact, if it gets to the point of a lawsuit, you probably won't
1223 2012-09-27 20:18:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I didnt say that power was logical or fully thought through, but you cant say a board room wouldnt be thinking that way
1224 2012-09-27 20:18:34 <BlueMatt> TD: well, ofc, but insuring your use of a payment processor is cheaper than insuring your use of your own code
1225 2012-09-27 20:19:41 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1226 2012-09-27 20:19:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it probably shouldn't be; certantly not currently.
1227 2012-09-27 20:20:06 <TD> right now you can't really beat the value proposition of a payment processor like bitpay just with software
1228 2012-09-27 20:20:12 <TD> because their value-add is a lot more than just technical
1229 2012-09-27 20:20:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: currently, I would say no, but, in the future, I would argue it makes more sense
1230 2012-09-27 20:20:21 <gmaxwell> offering insurance is all about averaging risks to hide the systemic components. You can't average the risk of outliers.
1231 2012-09-27 20:20:22 <TD> in future i think the appeal of in-sourcing will be higher
1232 2012-09-27 20:21:16 <BlueMatt> TD: for large shops that are big enough, sure, probably, but for small shops, its more about cost, time-to-market, and...sanity
1233 2012-09-27 20:21:27 <gmaxwell> As an insurer, you'd _much_ rather sell 1000 people $1000 insurance than one party $1m insurance; assuming equal rates.
1234 2012-09-27 20:21:34 <BlueMatt> for medium-size shops...depends, i would think processor...
1235 2012-09-27 20:21:44 lggr has joined
1236 2012-09-27 20:24:19 <TD> what i want to avoid is the situation email ended up in
1237 2012-09-27 20:24:41 <TD> where you have a P2P system that's based on open protocols, etc, but basically ~all consumer use ended up centralized around 3 large and mostly stagnant players
1238 2012-09-27 20:24:45 <gmaxwell> Where you must use google/msn/yahoo/ to email anyone due to spam?
1239 2012-09-27 20:25:07 <TD> i've got nothing against out-sourcing of email from a companies perspective, we see a good mix of in and out-sourcing there
1240 2012-09-27 20:25:15 <TD> in the consumer space though it didn't work out healthy
1241 2012-09-27 20:25:31 <TD> if we can keep most users on SPV clients and keep them state of the art, that'll be a major achievement
1242 2012-09-27 20:25:57 <TD> if half of merchants end up using bitpay, well, alright ..... as long as they feel savvy enough to change if they want to
1243 2012-09-27 20:26:03 <gmaxwell> Well, I think we're not doing great at that right now.
1244 2012-09-27 20:26:15 <TD> indeed
1245 2012-09-27 20:26:36 <BlueMatt> sadly, with our development resources...
1246 2012-09-27 20:26:44 <TD> :(
1247 2012-09-27 20:26:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't just mean the reference client either...
1248 2012-09-27 20:27:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, I know a ton of people who use mtgox as their wallet...
1249 2012-09-27 20:27:33 <BlueMatt> s/who//
1250 2012-09-27 20:27:44 <jgarzik> I think a web server that answered to an API very similar to paypal/bitpay/etc. would be very useful
1251 2012-09-27 20:27:48 <jgarzik> 1) run a node.
1252 2012-09-27 20:27:51 <jgarzik> 2) run this web server
1253 2012-09-27 20:27:57 <jgarzik> 3) connect your django shite to #2
1254 2012-09-27 20:28:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well I suppose using mtgox as a wallet is probably one of the less bad web wallet options, simply because if you're already heavily using gox as an exchange you're taking only one point of failure... and they have a very viable business that helps keep them afloat without doing stupid things.
1255 2012-09-27 20:28:07 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ack, wanna write it?
1256 2012-09-27 20:28:10 dvide has joined
1257 2012-09-27 20:28:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I'm still trying to change the world, by implementing distributed bonds!  ;p
1258 2012-09-27 20:28:23 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1259 2012-09-27 20:28:24 <TD> and mtgox does support two-factor auth, etc
1260 2012-09-27 20:28:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ack, but having it more distributed would be better...
1261 2012-09-27 20:28:32 <TD> but yeah
1262 2012-09-27 20:28:41 <jgarzik> more specifically, smart property + bond subset thereof
1263 2012-09-27 20:28:54 <TD> making multibit or an spv-upgraded satoshi client really competitive would be useful
1264 2012-09-27 20:28:56 Diapolo has joined
1265 2012-09-27 20:29:10 <TD> i guess it boils down to justmoons observation that "centralized is always easier than decentralized"
1266 2012-09-27 20:29:19 <amiller> spv-upgraded satoshi client is interesting, is spv currently considered out-of-scope for "the reference client"
1267 2012-09-27 20:29:29 <amiller> i.e., there is no such thing as an official reference SPV client
1268 2012-09-27 20:29:36 <BlueMatt> TD: ack (to some extent, and on certain projects...)
1269 2012-09-27 20:29:53 <gmaxwell> There are also a large number of people who are perfectly willing and able to run a _full_ node. Who instead use web wallets, because while they can run one full node they don't want to run three and they want their wallet available on their moble phone.
1270 2012-09-27 20:29:54 <BlueMatt> amiller: reference clients arent designed to be used by people
1271 2012-09-27 20:29:59 Joric has quit ()
1272 2012-09-27 20:30:06 <BlueMatt> amiller: not necessarily at least
1273 2012-09-27 20:30:29 lggr has joined
1274 2012-09-27 20:30:37 <amiller> BlueMatt, no but they're designed so that if the people use a client, and it differs substantially from a reference client, it's weird and suspicious and probably inefficient too
1275 2012-09-27 20:30:42 * jgarzik just hopes wikileaks -> bitcoin does not blowback onto bitcoin, vis a vis "enemy of the state" http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/us-calls-assange-enemy-of-state-20120927-26m7s.html#ixzz27cjH9qSk
1276 2012-09-27 20:30:50 <gmaxwell> amiller: I hope and expect the reference to support SPV mode.. what I'd like is automatic behavior where if you don't tell it otherwise it figures out what kind of node it should be.
1277 2012-09-27 20:30:53 <TD> amiller: the original plan was to have satoshis code do it. there's some dead code in there to do SPV
1278 2012-09-27 20:30:56 <TD> it was never finished
1279 2012-09-27 20:30:58 <jgarzik> yep
1280 2012-09-27 20:31:02 <BlueMatt> amiller: uhh...no, look at gnutella
1281 2012-09-27 20:31:03 <TD> P2SH and other things took priority
1282 2012-09-27 20:31:13 <jgarzik> satoshi's original plan was The Client is used by everybody.  The Client would have full mode and SPV mode.
1283 2012-09-27 20:31:25 <gmaxwell> amiller: and also use the other modes to facilitate install.
1284 2012-09-27 20:33:06 <amiller> gmaxwell, i like your vision for that - i think you'd say that in addition to automatically figuring out what kind of node to be, it also eventually becomes a better node, from spv-to-full, if resources allow
1285 2012-09-27 20:33:17 <gmaxwell> amiller: e.g. you install and it starts off as SPV with a bootstrap in seconds.. then it gets the utxo set and it goes full validation with spv-secure history— unless your system is too underpowered— and then in the background it pulls and becomes a proper full node... potenitally an archive based on free space.
1286 2012-09-27 20:33:54 <gmaxwell> and of course, the ability to override those decisions if you know better.
1287 2012-09-27 20:34:05 <TD> yeah that'd be the dream, of course. all based on one unified codebsae
1288 2012-09-27 20:34:27 <gmaxwell> That kind of behavior would maximize the number of validating nodes; and preserve decenteralization... while still fitting into the major niches.
1289 2012-09-27 20:34:33 <TD> sometimes i think doing bitcoinj was the wrong approach. but then i remember all the people who can't really cope with C++ but have useful code and apps to contribute
1290 2012-09-27 20:34:35 <BlueMatt> its also nice to have multiple codebases, though...
1291 2012-09-27 20:34:48 <TD> well, satoshis points about the risks were well made
1292 2012-09-27 20:34:49 <TD> but yes
1293 2012-09-27 20:34:50 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1294 2012-09-27 20:34:54 <amiller> multiple codebases, all of which are in sync :p
1295 2012-09-27 20:34:55 <TD> there is something to be said for a diversity of bugs too :)
1296 2012-09-27 20:35:02 <jgarzik> amiller: none of which are in sync ;p
1297 2012-09-27 20:35:32 <gmaxwell> So far multiple codebases has kind of been a bust. IMO.  Bitcoinj is pratically quite useful but most secondary efforts aren't finding the bugs, god knows what they're doing with them.
1298 2012-09-27 20:36:00 <gmaxwell> TD: I'd expect at some point in the future miners to run multple validation engines and produce blocks that all engines agree with.
1299 2012-09-27 20:36:14 Impaler has joined
1300 2012-09-27 20:36:45 <gmaxwell> (not so hard to do if they could share a common data store... except for the fact that we've had some gnarly datastore interaction bugs that could have cause forks. :( )
1301 2012-09-27 20:36:59 <TD> realistically there are few enough re-implementations that only a handful of people have really studied the code in depth because of reimplementing
1302 2012-09-27 20:37:11 <TD> so it's easy for subtle bugs to not get picked up
1303 2012-09-27 20:37:19 <TD> "many eyes make bugs shallow" may be true, if you have many eyes
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1305 2012-09-27 20:38:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I know bitcoinj has turned up a number of bugs in bitcoind...
1306 2012-09-27 20:38:10 <amiller> gmaxwell, which are the datastore interaction bugs you're talking about?
1307 2012-09-27 20:38:19 <amiller> i'm interested in that because i may be running into similar things with what i've done to pynode
1308 2012-09-27 20:38:30 <amiller> and i'm also trying to find a good way to avoid making that entire class of mistakes
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1310 2012-09-27 20:39:23 <TD> gmaxwell: yeah i think i noticed an int signdness issue at some point, i forget exactly what it was
1311 2012-09-27 20:40:18 <gmaxwell> amiller: the roconner txn overwriting bug, and the bdb maximum locks and can't reorg bug  are what come to mind
1312 2012-09-27 20:40:51 <TD> one thing i did think is that major changes to the satoshi client make me nervous
1313 2012-09-27 20:41:03 <TD> doing SPV/auto-switching is major surgery on a critical codebase
1314 2012-09-27 20:41:03 <amiller> i'm familiar with the txoverwriting bug, how can i read more about the can't reorg bug
1315 2012-09-27 20:41:25 <TD> the chances of making a subtle mistake is high. so having a separate implementation for SPV and keeping churn in the core to a minimum seems to have some security benefits
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1317 2012-09-27 20:42:03 <gmaxwell> amiller: I dunno that it ever got much coverage other than the commit message where it was fixed. Basically bdb has some maximum locks parameter, and it made it impossible for nodes to do reorgs which were too big.
1318 2012-09-27 20:42:28 <gmaxwell> TD: we're facing that with ultraprune+leveldb (or either alone) too.
1319 2012-09-27 20:42:33 <BlueMatt> TD: and thats why i was trying to redesign it such that subtle mistakes were harder...
1320 2012-09-27 20:42:46 <TD> yeah
1321 2012-09-27 20:42:49 <gmaxwell> There are a lot of hard to test corner cases around reorgs that could be fatal network splitters.
1322 2012-09-27 20:42:53 <TD> ultraprune needs very careful review
1323 2012-09-27 20:42:59 <TD> we don't have much choice there though
1324 2012-09-27 20:43:12 <BlueMatt> moar tests!
1325 2012-09-27 20:43:15 <gmaxwell> Not just ultraprune, e.g. things like the bdb max locks could make leveldb a killer too.
1326 2012-09-27 20:43:20 <jgarzik> amiller: RE pynode, is github confused?  I don't see the log file code
1327 2012-09-27 20:43:47 <amiller> https://github.com/amiller/pynode/commit/8dd3fcfbc1bf1b9bd03cd45e56aee48652629bea#L0R100
1328 2012-09-27 20:43:49 <TD> i have a lot more faith in leveldb than bdb
1329 2012-09-27 20:43:57 <amiller> gmaxwell, so what happened when bdb failed
1330 2012-09-27 20:43:58 <TD> the reputation of its authors is near-legendary for good reasons
1331 2012-09-27 20:44:02 <amiller> how did the reorg fail and why would that have caused a fork?
1332 2012-09-27 20:44:16 <gmaxwell> Thats why I floated the somewhat odd idea of explicitly promoting 0.8.0 as end-user only. E.g. not recommended for miners or infrastructure.. so it would be sure to be on the losing side of any flaw induced fork.
1333 2012-09-27 20:44:21 <BlueMatt> TD: ack, but  weve spent time finding bdb corner-cases, whereas we havent spent any with leveldb
1334 2012-09-27 20:44:24 <jgarzik> TD: sure
1335 2012-09-27 20:44:39 <jgarzik> TD: I'm still skeptical about leveldb's lack of transactions, vs BDB, though
1336 2012-09-27 20:44:39 <amiller> (i don't think the way we process reorgs make a whole lot of sense yet)
1337 2012-09-27 20:44:53 <TD> it has atomic write batches
1338 2012-09-27 20:44:55 <amiller> leveldb has write-level transactions
1339 2012-09-27 20:44:59 <TD> which are more or less the same thing
1340 2012-09-27 20:45:00 <amiller> you just can't safely interleave them with reads
1341 2012-09-27 20:45:02 <jgarzik> batches != transactions
1342 2012-09-27 20:45:06 <gmaxwell> TD: in the case of our BDB locks thing it wasn't a bdb bug so much as how we were using it... It had a well disclosed maximum and an api to adjust it.
1343 2012-09-27 20:45:09 <jgarzik> they are close, yes
1344 2012-09-27 20:45:33 <jgarzik> amiller: sipa's idea of creating undo data for processing reorgs is nice
1345 2012-09-27 20:45:35 <gmaxwell> in any case, I'm not criticizing leveldb or anything; just pointing out that there is risk there too.
1346 2012-09-27 20:45:39 <TD> yeah
1347 2012-09-27 20:45:42 <TD> fair point
1348 2012-09-27 20:46:11 <TD> though i'd consider bdbs ridiculous API to be sort of a bug :) weird knobs that can break things and you're expected to guess at the right numbers, a good design makes not
1349 2012-09-27 20:46:33 <jgarzik> TD: that's inherent in any design where the authors themselves don't know the right values for the numbers
1350 2012-09-27 20:46:41 <gmaxwell> Ultraprune is in some ways riskier, but at least we can understand the whole of it.. where as with leveldb there may be _expected_ behaviors we don't know about which screw us. So just a different kind of risk.
1351 2012-09-27 20:46:43 <amiller> leveldb also has many knobs to tune
1352 2012-09-27 20:46:46 <jgarzik> Passing The Buck
1353 2012-09-27 20:47:08 <jgarzik> yes
1354 2012-09-27 20:48:06 <jgarzik> bitcoin -relies- on BDB transactions, notably proper rollbacks, for proper handling some aspects of reorgs
1355 2012-09-27 20:48:31 <TD> sipa removed that reliance
1356 2012-09-27 20:48:45 <jgarzik> not saying sipa's code doesn't handle this... just noting it as a detail that must be carefully reviewed, and is an element of database switch risk
1357 2012-09-27 20:48:46 <gmaxwell> In anycase... it will require super-agressive testing... bluematt has done probably one part of the most critial bit of that already at least though.. (making the block tester stuff)
1358 2012-09-27 20:49:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1360 2012-09-27 20:50:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: uhh...no block acceptance tests as written now is like 60 blocks; that clearly doesnt do any kind of reasonably exhaustive testing
1361 2012-09-27 20:50:39 lggr has joined
1362 2012-09-27 20:51:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I know, but you've build the infrastructure. Now it just needs to be filled out.
1363 2012-09-27 20:51:27 <BlueMatt> heh...infrastructure (in this case) is the easy part (and its not like anyone likes writing tests)
1364 2012-09-27 20:52:10 <BlueMatt> (not saying its not important, but its really only a start)
1365 2012-09-27 20:53:48 Marf has joined
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1369 2012-09-27 20:57:43 ajf has joined
1370 2012-09-27 20:57:44 <ajf> The "Show QR Code" button should say "Show QR Code/URL"
1371 2012-09-27 21:00:11 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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1380 2012-09-27 21:22:32 ajf is now known as ajf_DOT_me
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1384 2012-09-27 21:28:06 bexi has joined
1385 2012-09-27 21:29:57 <bexi> i got little problem.. my bitcoin-qt 0.7 client says "Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade." and blocks won't update
1386 2012-09-27 21:32:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1387 2012-09-27 21:33:04 ajf_DOT_me is now known as ajf_dot_me
1388 2012-09-27 21:33:39 <gmaxwell> bexi: can you pastbin your debug.log (note: it may contain your IP address)
1389 2012-09-27 21:35:26 lggr has joined
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1391 2012-09-27 21:36:09 denisx has joined
1392 2012-09-27 21:36:12 <bexi> http://pastebin.com/tsPTANee
1393 2012-09-27 21:37:10 <kjj_> is that the stuck download bug in action?
1394 2012-09-27 21:37:18 ajf_dot_me has left ()
1395 2012-09-27 21:39:09 <lianj> whats up with http://www.trucoin.com/
1396 2012-09-27 21:39:58 <jaxtr> the bitcoin foundation will lead us to a new era of freedom and prosperity!
1397 2012-09-27 21:40:08 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
1398 2012-09-27 21:40:42 prahanormal has joined
1399 2012-09-27 21:40:46 <lianj> is trucoin related to the bitcoin foundation?
1400 2012-09-27 21:41:42 <kjj_> no
1401 2012-09-27 21:41:56 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1402 2012-09-27 21:42:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1403 2012-09-27 21:42:46 <jaxtr> https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/
1404 2012-09-27 21:44:14 lggr has joined
1405 2012-09-27 21:44:15 <lianj> gavin is the man of dozen teams then?
1406 2012-09-27 21:46:32 <jaxtr> gavin is cool
1407 2012-09-27 21:47:58 Muis has joined
1408 2012-09-27 21:50:18 <kjj_> I wish the forums had a Hard-ignore feature.
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1411 2012-09-27 21:50:41 <jgarzik> kjj_: Atlas still annoying, even after clicking 'ignore'?  :)
1412 2012-09-27 21:52:16 <kjj_> even worse, the little prick keeps deleting his account and creating new ones with the same name, not to mention all of his puppets
1413 2012-09-27 21:52:24 Arch_Coldfire has joined
1414 2012-09-27 21:52:25 <kjj_> I swear I blocked him like a year ago
1415 2012-09-27 21:52:40 <lianj> jaxtr: yes ofc. still curious
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1424 2012-09-27 22:04:32 <kjj_> gah.  I really need to get my own searchable block/transaction system
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1428 2012-09-27 22:10:37 <jaxtr> cool
1429 2012-09-27 22:10:43 <jaxtr> are you talking about bitcoin abe
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1437 2012-09-27 22:21:38 <midnightmagic> So.. uh..  what does 10,000BTC buy me in the foundation/
1438 2012-09-27 22:22:09 freakazoid has joined
1439 2012-09-27 22:22:35 <kjj_> 1 vote
1440 2012-09-27 22:23:29 <midnightmagic> And what does this mean: "If Bitcoin is to be a viable money for both current users and future adopters, we need to maintain, improve and legally protect the integrity of the protocol."
1441 2012-09-27 22:23:56 <kjj_> which part is tripping you up?
1442 2012-09-27 22:24:09 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: I suspect it may be intentionally vague, as it is yet to be determined?
1443 2012-09-27 22:24:12 lggr has joined
1444 2012-09-27 22:24:39 <midnightmagic> "legally protect the integrity of the protocol"  <-- this part..
1445 2012-09-27 22:25:00 <MC1984> so even the bitcoin developers feel bitcoin has a legitimacy problem?
1446 2012-09-27 22:25:09 <midnightmagic> kjj_: And how many votes are there, and what resources do I get to direct with my 1 vote?
1447 2012-09-27 22:25:14 Gladamas_ has joined
1448 2012-09-27 22:26:04 <kjj_> midnightmagic: depends how many industry members sign up.  all industry members in good standing get to vote on board members.  you'd get one of those votes
1449 2012-09-27 22:26:34 <kjj_> basically, the same vote that the guys paying 500 or 2500 BTC are getting
1450 2012-09-27 22:27:22 da2ce757 has joined
1451 2012-09-27 22:27:51 <midnightmagic> I see.. they're eventually going to hold elections which could replace themselves altogether. So, paying bitcoins into the foundation buys me a vote towards that class of board member during an election.
1452 2012-09-27 22:28:36 <kjj_> right.  they are two year terms, with the initial terms ending July 31, 2014
1453 2012-09-27 22:28:51 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1454 2012-09-27 22:29:18 <kjj_> hmm, that's not wise.  they should stagger and overlap.  note to self, find out who to recommend tips like that to...
1455 2012-09-27 22:29:24 Gladamas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1456 2012-09-27 22:30:15 <midnightmagic> kjj_: I don't suppose you see a copy of the bylaws somewhere in there do you?
1457 2012-09-27 22:30:20 Gladamas_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1458 2012-09-27 22:30:37 <kjj_> no, I haven't seen them.  they are in dire need of a site-map
1459 2012-09-27 22:31:07 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1460 2012-09-27 22:31:15 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
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1462 2012-09-27 22:31:29 * midnightmagic wants a copy of the bylaws and emails lindsay to get it..
1463 2012-09-27 22:32:20 <kjj_> they might not be final yet either.  it isn't uncommon for new organizations to start up with skeleton bylaws to be filled in later
1464 2012-09-27 22:32:32 da2ce757 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1465 2012-09-27 22:32:35 <kjj_> I have no idea, but that might be why they aren't published properly yet
1466 2012-09-27 22:33:27 <midnightmagic> Is it an actual non-profit?
1467 2012-09-27 22:33:55 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: non-profit status is easy
1468 2012-09-27 22:33:55 <kjj_> like registered with the IRS?  not that I've heard so far, so probably not
1469 2012-09-27 22:34:19 <kjj_> but yeah, that is fairly easy to get, just a matter of paperwork.
1470 2012-09-27 22:34:32 <kjj_> and again, that sort of paperwork is almost never done before inception either
1471 2012-09-27 22:34:42 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: I don't see any way to replace the "founding member"
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1473 2012-09-27 22:36:20 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1474 2012-09-27 22:37:32 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: If it's an actual registered non-profit or 501c or whatever it is in the US, then I can direct funds there every 6 months or so..
1475 2012-09-27 22:38:41 copumpkin has joined
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1477 2012-09-27 22:38:49 <gmaxwell> It's a 501(c)6 IIRC. I assume all the filing is complete now.
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1489 2012-09-27 22:49:33 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Aw that means I can't donate.  I was hoping for a 501(c)3.
1490 2012-09-27 22:51:19 <kjj_> it isn't a charity
1491 2012-09-27 22:51:31 theorb has joined
1492 2012-09-27 22:52:23 <gmaxwell> I expected as much which is why I included the detail… really 501(c)3 is a bad fit for an org that you expect to get most of its funding from companies.
1493 2012-09-27 22:52:41 <gmaxwell> (also a bad fit for an org that you may want to be politically active…)
1494 2012-09-27 22:53:42 <Luke-Jr> I'm a bit scared at a democratic Bitcoin organization being politically active, considering the current userbase
1495 2012-09-27 22:53:51 <kjj_> heh.  no shit
1496 2012-09-27 22:53:52 <gmaxwell> hah.
1497 2012-09-27 22:54:07 <midnightmagic> EFF doesn't seem to have any trouble doing that sort of thing.
1498 2012-09-27 22:54:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1499 2012-09-27 22:54:20 <gmaxwell> well, you'll note that the board isn't filled with libertarian ultranuts.
1500 2012-09-27 22:54:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, but isn't the board elected by libertarian ultranuts soon?
1501 2012-09-27 22:54:40 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
1502 2012-09-27 22:54:40 <midnightmagic> I can't note that, I have no idea who that founding seat guy is.
1503 2012-09-27 22:54:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: also, BitInstant has a presense on the board…
1504 2012-09-27 22:54:53 tower has joined
1505 2012-09-27 22:55:13 <kjj_> Luke, I've gotta ask.  What is all of that non-ASCII garbage you always have where punctuation should be?
1506 2012-09-27 22:55:23 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: elipsis in that case
1507 2012-09-27 22:55:59 <gmaxwell> kjj_: get a UTF-8 compatible terminal; geesh. What is this 1992?
1508 2012-09-27 22:56:15 <gmaxwell> Or perhaps I should have said "1992‽"
1509 2012-09-27 22:56:33 * midnightmagic is not looking forward to the day when he has to manually bitmap out enough additional characters to actually see wtf gmaxwell is saying.
1510 2012-09-27 22:56:33 <kjj_> 1992, no.  2007
1511 2012-09-27 22:56:49 <midnightmagic> too bad fontforge has sucked so much since it stopped being called pfaedit
1512 2012-09-27 22:57:08 <Luke-Jr> did it suck less back then?
1513 2012-09-27 22:57:20 <midnightmagic> I couldn't crash it no matter what I did back then.
1514 2012-09-27 22:57:26 <kjj_> the box I'm on has 1455 days of uptime.  If Romney wins, it'll have seen three presidents.
1515 2012-09-27 22:57:30 <Luke-Jr> I still can't figure out how to properly encode a BTC symbol in a font with fontforge…
1516 2012-09-27 22:58:22 <gmaxwell> In any case, — I think focusing on the straight business aspects of bitcoin (helping people who want to exchange bitcoin to facilitate commerce) is easier to make boring and uncontroversial than focusing on bitcoin's charitable purpose (liberating money).
1517 2012-09-27 22:58:24 lggr has joined
1518 2012-09-27 22:58:26 <midnightmagic> it's harder now, but you have to find the glyph with the correct code, and make sure that whatever is using it (xterm for example) knows to map the glyph to the right coding. In my xterm, as I fill in the additional characters they show up in my terminal.
1519 2012-09-27 22:58:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: in that sense, Gavin's negativity toward stable branches isn't helpful :<
1520 2012-09-27 22:59:12 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Hey are you talking about next-test?
1521 2012-09-27 22:59:13 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: BTC is a two-character glyph
1522 2012-09-27 22:59:16 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: er, doesn't your system do character resolution? the stuff in bog standard linux distros will fill in from another font if a character is missing.
1523 2012-09-27 22:59:23 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: no, I'm talking about 0.4.x, 0.5.x, and 0.6.x
1524 2012-09-27 23:00:00 <kjj_> Luke-Jr: I can kinda see his point though.
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1526 2012-09-27 23:00:07 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: BTC is 0042 + 20E6
1527 2012-09-27 23:00:14 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: It does not appear to in my case. I have to go in and fill in stuff, or it just shows up as ?? and ?
1528 2012-09-27 23:00:15 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: bitcoin is fairly expiremental software still. We don't have the testing resources to make trunk releases high quality. Dilluting testing on to backport branches (which I think we now have too many of) would not help. ::shrugs::
1529 2012-09-27 23:00:16 Marf has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1530 2012-09-27 23:00:49 <gmaxwell> experimental*
1531 2012-09-27 23:00:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hence why I deferred stable testing until 0.7.0 final was tagged
1532 2012-09-27 23:01:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but the business side of Bitcoin *needs* stable codebases, regardless of how ready we are for it.
1533 2012-09-27 23:01:26 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: U0E3F :P
1534 2012-09-27 23:01:43 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: that's thai baht
1535 2012-09-27 23:01:50 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: unfortunately the _required_ backports substantially compromise stability. I feel like the greater exposure of trunk makes it safer than the stable branches.
1536 2012-09-27 23:01:53 <kjj_> I predict that the first stable branch will show up when 1) it is harder to get your wallet stolen than not stolen, 2) the blockchain download happens nicely, and 3) we have a secure payment protocol
1537 2012-09-27 23:02:05 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1538 2012-09-27 23:02:20 * midnightmagic scratches his head at #3.
1539 2012-09-27 23:02:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: osmetimes trunk is not an option
1540 2012-09-27 23:02:37 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: we've had stable branches for months now
1541 2012-09-27 23:02:52 <kjj_> midnightmagic: how do you know that the address you are looking at actually goes to the person you think it goes to?
1542 2012-09-27 23:02:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I know, but what do you want? It's not like gavin's support matters much for this. Real testing effort matters and we don't have much of it.
1543 2012-09-27 23:03:18 <kjj_> Luke-Jr: I wouldn't call them stable branches.  just a heroic effort to fix as much as possible in old versions
1544 2012-09-27 23:03:21 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: e.g. there is that guy on bitcoin-dev that goes on about testing; but I've not seen any evidence (lately, at least) of him ever testing it at all.
1545 2012-09-27 23:03:28 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: difference? :P
1546 2012-09-27 23:03:46 <kjj_> Luke-Jr: heh, mostly just the name
1547 2012-09-27 23:04:36 * Luke-Jr wonders why BitPay wasn't involved in the Foundation
1548 2012-09-27 23:04:38 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Is that guy me? :)
1549 2012-09-27 23:04:38 jurov is now known as jurov|away
1550 2012-09-27 23:04:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: a stable branch would have few to no regressions and have monotonically decreasing bug rates. I think it's unlikely your unstable branches achieve that (through no fault of your own; some fixes and protocol changes are rather invasive)
1551 2012-09-27 23:05:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1552 2012-09-27 23:05:31 <galambo_>  /j #freicoin
1553 2012-09-27 23:05:39 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: not unless your name became steve when I wasn't looking
1554 2012-09-27 23:05:42 <galambo_> sorry
1555 2012-09-27 23:06:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't think that's unlikely. The only problem it's had so far was for IBD (which quite frankly, doesn't make sense for stable branches)
1556 2012-09-27 23:06:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that you've found.
1557 2012-09-27 23:06:33 <midnightmagic> anyone else notice bitcoin.it is down-ish?
1558 2012-09-27 23:06:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: there's no reason to expect more. *shrug*
1559 2012-09-27 23:06:39 <xisalty> yes
1560 2012-09-27 23:06:44 <kjj_> gotta run.  see ya
1561 2012-09-27 23:07:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: until a couple bugs are found in stable _before_ the're found in trunk (while they exist in trunk) it seems unlikely that you're even able to measure stable's stability.
1562 2012-09-27 23:07:35 <galambo_> are all the seed nodes in the US? if gov't got an emergency injunction against all the seed nodes would bitcoin be dead in the water?
1563 2012-09-27 23:07:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: far fewer chances of new bugs being introduced
1564 2012-09-27 23:07:55 <gmaxwell> but just based on lines of code changed— which is actually a fairly solid metric (at least on large projects) it seems unlikely to be stable to me.
1565 2012-09-27 23:07:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: also, I'm pretty sure I've found bugs in stable :p
1566 2012-09-27 23:08:10 <gmaxwell> galambo_:  'seed nodes' huh?
1567 2012-09-27 23:08:24 <Luke-Jr> most LOC changed in stable branches, are updates to the translations because we SUCK at translation management right now
1568 2012-09-27 23:08:36 <galambo_> dns seed? i forgot what they are called in bitcoin.
1569 2012-09-27 23:08:38 <gmaxwell> galambo_: are you asking about DNS seeds?
1570 2012-09-27 23:09:01 <galambo_> sorry seed node is a freenet term
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1572 2012-09-27 23:09:10 <gmaxwell> galambo_: they're only needed by newly installed nodes; and no; they're not all in the us.
1573 2012-09-27 23:09:49 <gmaxwell> and even newly installed nodes can start without them; though it can take a while.
1574 2012-09-27 23:09:55 lggr has joined
1575 2012-09-27 23:10:31 <galambo_> ok  thanks. not really worried but its one of those "doomsday" ideas
1576 2012-09-27 23:10:31 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is not, however, blocking/censorship resistant. It's not designed to be either. Use it with Tor for censorship resistance.
1577 2012-09-27 23:11:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: anyhow, it's not my intention to be critical of the Foundation, just noting things that came to mind
1578 2012-09-27 23:11:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: right. Sounds like reasonable points.
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1585 2012-09-27 23:21:10 <maaku> galambo_: the bitcoin client comes with some hardcoded default peer IPs as well
1586 2012-09-27 23:21:48 <maaku> and even if every seed and all the default peers is down you can still use -connect to any active node
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1590 2012-09-27 23:24:29 <gmaxwell> maaku: or drop in an addr.txt file with more.
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1597 2012-09-27 23:34:21 <jgarzik> It's pretty neat that the Foundation is dogfooding...  paying expenses and salaries in bitcoin, and having no USD bank account, etc.
1598 2012-09-27 23:35:52 <gmaxwell> people complained about that only the forum. I thought that was weird.
1599 2012-09-27 23:36:02 <Luke-Jr> why would people complain about that? O.o
1600 2012-09-27 23:36:06 <gmaxwell> s/only/on/ .. but only fits too
1601 2012-09-27 23:36:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1602 2012-09-27 23:36:24 <jgarzik> forum remains a ghetto of trolls
1603 2012-09-27 23:36:26 <Gabit> a theoretical question: Is there any practical way to create and manage 10M-100M of wallet addresses?
1604 2012-09-27 23:36:36 <gmaxwell> Because omg bitcoin may be worth more in the future, so the lifetime membership should be in USD because 25 BTC may be BILLIONZ.
1605 2012-09-27 23:36:46 <Luke-Jr> right, forgot the obvious
1606 2012-09-27 23:36:54 <Luke-Jr> Gabit: sure?
1607 2012-09-27 23:37:32 <Gabit> how one goes doing that? With sql? or how? any links to offer?
1608 2012-09-27 23:37:32 <Gabit> for research
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1610 2012-09-27 23:38:10 <gmaxwell> 'research'?
1611 2012-09-27 23:38:11 <Luke-Jr> Gabit: however you'd normally store a 10M-100M hash table? :P
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1614 2012-09-27 23:38:54 <Gabit> I was just wondering how could I do a transparent system, and it would require millions of addresses
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1616 2012-09-27 23:39:09 <jgarzik> Gabit: that is a bit vague
1617 2012-09-27 23:39:59 <Gabit> well, yea. It is probably a stupid idea anyway. It is way too complex for me
1618 2012-09-27 23:39:59 <gmaxwell> Gabit: 'transparent system' ... You do not need to use the blockchain to have a cryptographically proven gambling site.
1619 2012-09-27 23:40:05 <jgarzik> Gabit: you can use 'sendmessage' RPC to verify that you control a key, without sending any block chain transaction
1620 2012-09-27 23:40:41 <Gabit> jgarzik: thanks, ill check it out
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1622 2012-09-27 23:42:23 <jgarzik> doh.  a stolen Adobe key apparently was used to sign some malware.
1623 2012-09-27 23:42:42 <gmaxwell> Gabit: for example, here is how someone can run cryptographically strong blackjack without doing any bitcoin transactions: http://bitjack21.com/cryptoproof
1624 2012-09-27 23:43:30 <galambo_> jgarzik: was it called "acrobat reader?"
1625 2012-09-27 23:43:31 <Gabit> gmaxwell: yea, i know about that method. But it was more for verifying winnings and bets
1626 2012-09-27 23:43:48 <Gabit> for a complex betting patterns
1627 2012-09-27 23:44:09 <jgarzik> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/09/adobe-digital-cert-hacked/
1628 2012-09-27 23:44:32 <gmaxwell> Gabit: a whole game of blackjack is as complex of a betting pattern as you get... and that verifies the winnings.
1629 2012-09-27 23:45:24 <gmaxwell> Gabit: you have to be clear about what sort of transparency you're talking about; it's easy to prove to the players that you're not cheating them, and easy to create proof if you cheat that they can show to others to convince them you cheated.
1630 2012-09-27 23:45:27 <MC1984> 10,000 bitcoins for corporate membership
1631 2012-09-27 23:45:32 <MC1984> umm thats quite a lot
1632 2012-09-27 23:46:28 <gmaxwell> thats for 'Platinum Membership'
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1637 2012-09-27 23:57:48 <Gabit> gmaxwell: I think I got it already. Thanks for your input again. You're helping a lot. :)
1638 2012-09-27 23:58:02 <gmaxwell> I sure hope I don't regret that. :P
1639 2012-09-27 23:58:55 <Luke-Jr> Gabit: you got platinum membership?
1640 2012-09-27 23:58:58 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1641 2012-09-27 23:59:25 <Gabit> Luke-Jr: I even do not know what you're talking about... :) sry