1 2012-09-28 00:00:49 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
   2 2012-09-28 00:02:34 <Gabit> gmaxwell: well, when I have something ready, i'll be showing it here to hear betterment ideas anyways, so I guess you'll see it then.
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   7 2012-09-28 00:05:06 <MC1984> what is the relationship between this foundation and the core dev team proper
   8 2012-09-28 00:05:49 <chriskoss_> Gavin lead the charge to create the Foundation.  I don't know if any other core devs are involved yet.
   9 2012-09-28 00:06:18 <MC1984> yeah but does this foundation direct the devs or what
  10 2012-09-28 00:06:47 <gavinandresen> no, the dev team will continue to be mostly self-directed.
  11 2012-09-28 00:06:59 <MC1984> so far it seems like the foundation is mostly about advocacy
  12 2012-09-28 00:07:05 <gavinandresen> ... with nudging from each other, The Community, personal interests, etc
  13 2012-09-28 00:08:12 <gavinandresen> advocacy and communication and funding pieces of core infrastructure that might otherwise not get funded.
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  15 2012-09-28 00:08:36 <MC1984> oh theyre gonna pay you salary lol
  16 2012-09-28 00:08:46 <gavinandresen> Like the jenkins testing server, the github account, maybe Amazon S3 bandwidth to host a torrent/download of the blockchain, etc
  17 2012-09-28 00:09:14 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: why does the github account need to be a commercial one? afaik that's only needed for secret repositories…
  18 2012-09-28 00:09:26 <MC1984> tbh im suprised its taken this long for the big players to actually start bankrolling development
  19 2012-09-28 00:09:52 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: isn't there a limit on number of free repos?  I might be misremembering..
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  21 2012-09-28 00:10:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: not as far as I know… but maybe I just haven't hit it yet
  22 2012-09-28 00:10:23 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I have a lot of free repos right now, though
  23 2012-09-28 00:10:41 <MC1984> do you intend to take over the conference stuff from bitcoin consultancy too?
  24 2012-09-28 00:10:42 <lianj> no, just a size limit but thats at 100M iirc
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  26 2012-09-28 00:12:44 <gavinandresen> MC1984: conferences and developer get-togethers are definitely something I think the Foundation should do.  That doesn't mean there won't be other conferences and get-togethers organized by other people, too...
  27 2012-09-28 00:13:17 <MC1984> any interest from intersango?
  28 2012-09-28 00:13:48 <gavinandresen> in joining?  Don't know, haven't talked with them.
  29 2012-09-28 00:13:59 <yellowhat> gavin: we from austria were pitching the idea to bring the next conference to vienna
  30 2012-09-28 00:14:09 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: how about BFL? seems like a good company to talk to
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  32 2012-09-28 00:14:35 <yellowhat> we still have to decide how we will go forward with this idea, we have a meeting next week
  33 2012-09-28 00:14:40 <gavinandresen> yeah, I'm hoping somebody else will do most of the talking/fundraising, I hate that stuff
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  35 2012-09-28 00:15:02 <Luke-Jr> I suck at that stuff, so not me :p
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  38 2012-09-28 00:15:08 <gavinandresen> yellowhat: I'd vote for a conference in Vienna next fall, that would be spiffy.
  39 2012-09-28 00:15:28 <yellowhat> :) i was hoping for that kind of reaction.
  40 2012-09-28 00:15:29 <gavinandresen> yellowhat: ... but the plan is a conference in Silicon Valley spring/summer 2013
  41 2012-09-28 00:15:50 <yellowhat> our date would be late november 2013
  42 2012-09-28 00:15:56 <gavinandresen> major conferences in both Europe and US make sense, I think
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  44 2012-09-28 00:16:31 <jgarzik> mmmm, Vienna ;p
  45 2012-09-28 00:16:36 <jgarzik> never been
  46 2012-09-28 00:16:48 <yellowhat> did i memtion we will have speaker budget :)
  47 2012-09-28 00:16:54 * Luke-Jr would prefer somewhere with CCW reciprocity to Florida, not that he expects that to have any real influence on the end decision :P
  48 2012-09-28 00:17:00 <jgarzik> I bet the wife & kids could fly on Delta frequent flyer miles
  49 2012-09-28 00:17:16 <gavinandresen> Vienna looked like a great place for wife and kids.
  50 2012-09-28 00:17:45 <gavinandresen> Hmm, I'll probably be in Australia late november 2013...
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  53 2012-09-28 00:22:19 <yellowhat> the date is not fully finalized yet and also not the proponents. i was trying to gather support for the idea when we met most of the other europeans in London. We hope to bring even more professionalism, some fresh ideas - but also support from the former organizers. The 2013 organizers/conference would run as a non-profit so any excess income would come back to the bitcoin economy in some way
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  56 2012-09-28 00:26:49 <jgarzik> I think a payments/biz conference is a good idea
  57 2012-09-28 00:28:00 <jgarzik> London day one was fuzzy wuzzy blue sky stuff (a lot of fun, but not practical or necessarily bitcoin focused), Londay day two was technical.  Not much biz focus.
  58 2012-09-28 00:29:52 <jgarzik> It would also be useful to have $someone spend time creating docs for easy decentralized merchant setup, decentralized merchant best practices, etc.
  59 2012-09-28 00:30:30 <jgarzik> Turnkey open source kit for merchants
  60 2012-09-28 00:30:49 <Luke-Jr> dunno if merchants care about being decentralized?
  61 2012-09-28 00:30:56 <Luke-Jr> BitPay seems to be pretty successful
  62 2012-09-28 00:31:10 <jgarzik> The network is stronger if we make it easy for merchants to be decentralized.
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  65 2012-09-28 00:32:22 <jgarzik> it's all about creating the right incentives and defaults, not "right" or "wrong"   BitPay is just fine, and there will always be room for added value in that space.
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  67 2012-09-28 00:32:26 <gavinandresen> Silicon Valley conference would be very biz/investment focused
  68 2012-09-28 00:32:28 <chriskoss_> @jgarzik > Turnkey open source kit for merchants <- Cool idea
  69 2012-09-28 00:32:49 <gavinandresen> ^would^will  (gotta assume it will happen....)
  70 2012-09-28 00:33:29 <jgarzik> oh, and a longstanding wish of mine,
  71 2012-09-28 00:33:32 <jgarzik> Menu For Merchants
  72 2012-09-28 00:33:47 <jgarzik> A simple guide that lists various useful possibilities for bitcoin transactions and contracts
  73 2012-09-28 00:33:52 <jgarzik> a cookbook
  74 2012-09-28 00:34:14 <jgarzik> include specific examples of multi-signature transactions, who trusts whom and what, etc.
  75 2012-09-28 00:34:21 <jgarzik> s/what/why/
  76 2012-09-28 00:34:34 <gavinandresen> Patrick Murck is, for the record, way cool:  https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo
  77 2012-09-28 00:36:01 <yellowhat> can you be a founding member in absentia?
  78 2012-09-28 00:36:10 <jgarzik> bbiab, baby bedtime
  79 2012-09-28 00:36:11 <gavinandresen> who, me?
  80 2012-09-28 00:36:26 <yellowhat> owner of the PGP Public Key with fingerprint: 5EC948A1
  81 2012-09-28 00:36:33 <gavinandresen> oh, him.....
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  91 2012-09-28 00:43:57 <MC1984> gavinandresen is the foundation looking to engage relevant authorities about bitcoin too
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  96 2012-09-28 00:46:48 <MC1984> perhaps pre-empt thier knee jerk reflex to ban that which they fear and dont understand?
  97 2012-09-28 00:47:14 <gavinandresen> MC1984: "engage relevant authorities" ...  I'm not sure what that means, but I'll certainly continue talking to government people if they want to know more about Bitcoin, and I think the Foundation will, too
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  99 2012-09-28 00:48:29 <MC1984> whichever ones control and monitor money flows today
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 101 2012-09-28 00:48:33 <gavinandresen> RE: knee jerk reflex:  I haven't encountered that at all from the "relevant authorities."  The irrelevant authorities, yes....
 102 2012-09-28 00:48:57 <gavinandresen> FINSEC is most relevant to bitcoin-the-currency.
 103 2012-09-28 00:49:08 <gavinandresen> (here in the US)
 104 2012-09-28 00:51:12 <MC1984> yes, the ones that will want bitcoin designed or modified to be a complete open bok to them
 105 2012-09-28 00:51:32 <MC1984> potentially even far more so than fiat
 106 2012-09-28 00:51:52 <gavinandresen> mmm... yeah, I guess my response would be "good luck with that"
 107 2012-09-28 00:52:23 <MC1984> to me or FINSEC?
 108 2012-09-28 00:52:32 <gmaxwell> bitcoin already is an open book— in many ways, much more than cash.
 109 2012-09-28 00:53:11 <MC1984> the money flow is, identity wise not so much right
 110 2012-09-28 00:53:50 <gmaxwell> in any case; doesn't matter. I don't think that its likely, but if they ask that then we'll just have to get good at explaining that its simply not possible.
 111 2012-09-28 00:53:59 JZavala has joined
 112 2012-09-28 00:54:02 <gavinandresen> my response to FINSEC if they proposed something like "There Shall Be A Central Repository of Identities Tied To Bitcoin Addresses"
 113 2012-09-28 00:54:32 <MC1984> ok good
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 115 2012-09-28 00:54:47 <gavinandresen> It's not the regulators who are idiots, though, it is the politicians.
 116 2012-09-28 00:55:21 <gavinandresen> The regulators are just people trying their best to sort out the stupid, illogical knee-jerk laws that get passed
 117 2012-09-28 00:55:30 <MC1984> gmaxwell indeed that is the case, but consider the "thats not how it works" argument vis a vis piracy and the internet and the shitstorm thats causing
 118 2012-09-28 00:55:31 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 119 2012-09-28 00:55:36 <gmaxwell> Even the politicians are not actually so dumb; it's just their soundbites and laws that are usually dumb.
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 121 2012-09-28 00:58:33 <MC1984> i can see a time when bitcoin comes under the same sort of lobbying pressure to delegitimise it as filesharing tech has
 122 2012-09-28 00:58:48 <MC1984> pressure which can sweep the world regardless of juristiction
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 124 2012-09-28 00:59:09 <MC1984> futile as it may be, but still leave a trail of destruction in its wake
 125 2012-09-28 00:59:27 <gavinandresen> I'm actually pretty optimistic that won't happen with bitcoin; I think too many people are going to make a LOT of money to sweep it under the rug
 126 2012-09-28 01:00:14 <Detritus> All you need to do is convince the kneejerkers that they are better of taxing it than outlawing it
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 128 2012-09-28 01:00:43 <gavinandresen> Right.  When Goldman Sachs has a bitcoin-trading department you'll know it can't be stopped
 129 2012-09-28 01:00:45 <Detritus> Then they become supporters  :)
 130 2012-09-28 01:00:52 <Detritus> yep
 131 2012-09-28 01:01:20 <MC1984> perhaps if bitcoin is legitimised enough before the lobbyists really get thier teeth in, it wont end up in the same hole that bittorrent did
 132 2012-09-28 01:01:27 <MC1984> which would make the foundation a really good idea
 133 2012-09-28 01:02:21 <Detritus> I still use bittorrent on a daily basis... occasionally even for legal purposes. :)
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 135 2012-09-28 01:02:35 <gavinandresen> yes, but are you paying for it?
 136 2012-09-28 01:02:39 <Detritus> Nope
 137 2012-09-28 01:02:59 <gavinandresen> see, no obvious business model, no profit, no leverage over politicians/lobbyists
 138 2012-09-28 01:03:07 <Detritus> very true
 139 2012-09-28 01:03:31 <gavinandresen> bitcoin business models are really obvious: do what the existing financial system does, only more efficiently.
 140 2012-09-28 01:03:34 <MC1984> theres profit to be made from torrents on the provider side
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 142 2012-09-28 01:03:43 <MC1984> even simply in saved bandwidth costs
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 144 2012-09-28 01:04:26 <gavinandresen> True, I'm sure Blizzard saved a ton of bandwidth costs serving up MIsts of Pandaria via torrent....
 145 2012-09-28 01:04:48 <MC1984> probably petavyte
 146 2012-09-28 01:04:51 <MC1984> petabytes
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 154 2012-09-28 01:08:44 <MC1984> I just think the nightmare scenario is a US directed raid on a billion dollar foreign bitcoin company, megaupload style
 155 2012-09-28 01:09:25 <MC1984> which if course is turning out to be a complete farce, but could only happen in the first place due to the piracy hysteria whipped up by legacy players
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 187 2012-09-28 01:58:09 <bcb> in there a link on patching bitcoind for string ints
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 191 2012-09-28 02:04:18 <Luke-Jr> bcb: unlikely, that's a bad idea
 192 2012-09-28 02:05:28 <bcb> what the best way to deal with floats in php
 193 2012-09-28 02:06:09 <bcb> or to convert the bitcoind amounts to strings
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 195 2012-09-28 02:08:04 <Luke-Jr> bcb: don't deal with floats or strings
 196 2012-09-28 02:08:40 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC)#PHP
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 201 2012-09-28 02:17:17 <weex> bcb: the bc___ functions work fine
 202 2012-09-28 02:17:25 <weex> bcmul, bcsub, etc
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 206 2012-09-28 02:22:46 <bcb> luke-jr/weex that is still giving me the decimal
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 209 2012-09-28 02:29:52 <Luke-Jr> bcb: IIRC PHP doesn't support 64-bit integer types, but this gets you an integer in a floating type (which works fine)
 210 2012-09-28 02:30:44 <maaku> Luke-Jr: what's wrong with a string int, aside from the compatibility-with-existing-clients mess?
 211 2012-09-28 02:32:08 <maaku> it would have avoided any issues with fpmah and rounding
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 213 2012-09-28 02:33:41 <jgarzik> maaku: an old, familiar argument ;p
 214 2012-09-28 02:33:58 <jgarzik> maaku: hysterical raisins...
 215 2012-09-28 02:35:46 <bcb> luke-jr:  got it thx.
 216 2012-09-28 02:35:55 <bcb> why doesn't the client do that
 217 2012-09-28 02:37:06 <Luke-Jr> maaku: because it's not a string? those issues are also avoided by using integers like the rest of the code
 218 2012-09-28 02:37:18 <Luke-Jr> bcb: what client?
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 223 2012-09-28 02:41:15 <maaku> Luke-Jr: it's a compatibility thing. some 32-bit json implementation convert overflow values to float. the string-integer approach avoids that trap
 224 2012-09-28 02:41:45 <Luke-Jr> maaku: there's no problem with integer floats
 225 2012-09-28 02:42:05 <maaku> sigh, nevermind
 226 2012-09-28 02:42:46 <bcb> luke-jr satoshi client
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 229 2012-09-28 02:43:08 <Luke-Jr> bcb: compatibility reasons
 230 2012-09-28 02:43:43 <bcb> os/language
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 233 2012-09-28 02:45:10 <Luke-Jr> bcb: backward compatibility, with the original bitcoind that introduced it backward
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 235 2012-09-28 02:48:47 <bcb> luke-jr: ahh
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 280 2012-09-28 03:46:51 <jgarzik> amiller: OK, just checked pull req again.  I see the log file bits now.
 281 2012-09-28 03:47:12 <jgarzik> amiller: Did you test that code all the way to 200k + ?
 282 2012-09-28 03:47:34 <jgarzik> amiller: My lone reservation is maximum file size through that API.  Does it extend beyond 4GB?
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 346 2012-09-28 04:15:33 <amiller> the wonderful about tiggers is tiggers fill up all your screens
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 369 2012-09-28 04:23:26 <Ran_> help
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 371 2012-09-28 04:24:36 <Luke-Jr> the fed got him
 372 2012-09-28 04:24:38 <Luke-Jr> :o
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 374 2012-09-28 04:26:40 <Karmaon> thats what she said
 375 2012-09-28 04:27:07 <Karmaon> the feds were logging this channel and were fed (!!) up with the spam
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 377 2012-09-28 04:32:32 <amiller> jgarzik, i am past 200k (by skipping signature validation for now), but my blocks.dat is only 3.0gb. I have tested this python file io api and it has no trouble writing/reading large files (larger than 4gb), at least on ubuntu
 378 2012-09-28 04:32:46 <amiller> pfft, he's gone
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 381 2012-09-28 04:37:54 <maaku> amiller: are you reporting on pdynode development?
 382 2012-09-28 04:38:17 <maaku> i'm working on a branch with full signature validation too
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 384 2012-09-28 04:38:22 <gmaxwell> hahah
 385 2012-09-28 04:38:23 <gmaxwell> 21:08 < amiller> the wonderful about tiggers is tiggers fill up all your screens
 386 2012-09-28 04:39:46 <amiller> maaku, yeah, you're working on pynode too?
 387 2012-09-28 04:40:01 <maaku> yeah; slowly turning it into a full node
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 389 2012-09-28 04:41:29 <amiller> is your branch on github? are you sebicas?
 390 2012-09-28 04:42:06 <maaku> no, it's private but i intend to publish soon
 391 2012-09-28 04:42:26 <maaku> it's a refactoring of pynode (changed APIs), so i wasn't sure how interested you guys would be
 392 2012-09-28 04:42:32 <maaku> i'm maaku on github
 393 2012-09-28 04:43:03 <amiller> you should checkout what i've done over the last week or so, i've switched from asyncore to gevent and also from gdbm to leveldb+flat file
 394 2012-09-28 04:43:48 <amiller> the switch from asyncore to gevent is more about clarity / reducing mistakes rather than performance, but leveldb+flatfile makes a big difference
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 396 2012-09-28 04:44:02 <amiller> if you've been working on signature validation, i'm curious if you've done anything to optimize the serialization/deserialization
 397 2012-09-28 04:44:03 <kjj_> I wish the databases were pluggable.  I'd totally keep mine in mysql
 398 2012-09-28 04:44:51 <amiller> well all the btree databases are probably interchangeable, but the difference between an append-file and a db makes a big difference
 399 2012-09-28 04:44:55 <maaku> I refactored serialization so it's much cleaner, but i don't know about faster
 400 2012-09-28 04:45:06 <maaku> kjj_: i'm working on that, for pynode at least
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 402 2012-09-28 04:45:47 <maaku> amiller: yeah i saw your work with gevent and leveldb; good stuff
 403 2012-09-28 04:46:17 <maaku> i've actually stayed clear of the p2p and db stuff so far because I like where you're headed and didn't want to duplicate effort
 404 2012-09-28 04:47:42 <maaku> amiller: have you been doing any serious profiling? i haven't bothered yet
 405 2012-09-28 04:47:47 lggr has joined
 406 2012-09-28 04:47:59 <maaku> my priorities have been 1) make it correct, 2) make it elegant, 3) make it fast
 407 2012-09-28 04:48:00 <amiller> i've been doing casual profiling with pretty graphs
 408 2012-09-28 04:48:13 <amiller> mostly just to get an overview of where the pain points are
 409 2012-09-28 04:48:18 <amiller> it depends so much though on where in the blockchain you are
 410 2012-09-28 04:50:23 <gmaxwell> someone is apparently drafting txn that have either value overflow or spend more than inputs and relaying them: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1833#issuecomment-8964010
 411 2012-09-28 04:50:30 <maaku> i did factor out the block chain models (Block, Transaction, OutPoint, etc.) to be abstract base classes so that supporting different database backends is trivial
 412 2012-09-28 04:50:38 <maaku> duck typing in python is awesome
 413 2012-09-28 04:51:00 <amiller> maaku, do you use ipython
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 415 2012-09-28 04:51:47 <maaku> one of the next things i'm working on is a django orm implementation of the those base classes, which will be useful but not fast
 416 2012-09-28 04:51:52 <maaku> yes, swear by it
 417 2012-09-28 04:52:14 <amiller> okay well %prun is the thing to use to get cheap python profiling, you should be able to use it to compare your serialization performance
 418 2012-09-28 04:52:46 <amiller> http://i.imgur.com/MNBVb.png this is my latest run, it's from about 10 minutes of block signature validation, starting around 193k
 419 2012-09-28 04:52:55 <maaku> oh cool didn't know about that
 420 2012-09-28 04:52:56 <maaku> thx
 421 2012-09-28 04:54:12 <amiller> to use ipython with gevent you need to hack it, i use this branch and the command in this particular comment to run it https://github.com/ipython/ipython/pull/1654#issuecomment-7629420
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 425 2012-09-28 04:56:55 <kjj_> there needs to be a strangle button on the forums, right next to ignore.
 426 2012-09-28 04:56:57 <amiller> i agree with your priorities btw, 1) correct 2) elegant 3) fast, i don't mean to convey that i'm interested only in performance stats
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 428 2012-09-28 04:57:35 <amiller> but in order to make a merkle tree node, i'm going to need to simulate a lot of initial-block-downloads :p
 429 2012-09-28 04:57:54 <maaku> well it's good to be aware; I didn't realize profiling was so easy :)
 430 2012-09-28 04:58:08 <gmaxwell> kjj_: I think there was one but I wore it out.
 431 2012-09-28 04:58:32 <maaku> merkle tree node?
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 434 2012-09-28 05:04:15 <amiller> maaku, yeah, i'm trying to experiment with a node that can process and serve parts of a merkle tree utxo set, i guess one way to put it is i'm working towards distributed transaction validation
 435 2012-09-28 05:04:57 <kjj_> why would you do that?
 436 2012-09-28 05:05:00 <maaku> ah ok makes sense
 437 2012-09-28 05:05:14 <maaku> map-reduce transaction validation
 438 2012-09-28 05:05:31 <amiller> that's pretty much right
 439 2012-09-28 05:05:34 <kjj_> the transactions are all self-contained and can be validated in parallel.  the merkle tree depends only on the hashes, not the meaning
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 441 2012-09-28 05:06:00 <amiller> kjj_, well a transaction can only be validated relative to the context of the block it appears in
 442 2012-09-28 05:06:35 <kjj_> making sure the inputs are real, you mean?
 443 2012-09-28 05:06:49 <amiller> making sure the inputs are real and haven't yet been spent
 444 2012-09-28 05:07:34 <kjj_> the long part of that can be done totally in parallel already
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 446 2012-09-28 05:08:05 <amiller> by long part you mean the signature validation, yeah that part can be done in parallel
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 448 2012-09-28 05:08:18 <kjj_> checking that one input isn't in more than one transaction in the current block shouldn't need to be optimized much
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 450 2012-09-28 05:08:45 <amiller> kjj_, the point is that with the current datastructure, you need to query an index of unspent outputs
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 452 2012-09-28 05:09:35 <kjj_> right, but what does that have to do with the Merkle tree?
 453 2012-09-28 05:09:59 <amiller> ah sorry this is about a new merkle tree utxo set, not the merkle tree of transactions
 454 2012-09-28 05:10:33 <amiller> i meant to make that clear sorry if that was distracting - also, this isn't something to add to pynode, but something i'm experimenting with using pynode as a base
 455 2012-09-28 05:10:56 <kjj_> ahh, ok.  I don't know what you mean by utxo, I figured you were using it as shorthand for transactions
 456 2012-09-28 05:11:19 <maaku> unspent transaction output
 457 2012-09-28 05:11:24 <amiller> so right now if you want to validate a transaction you need to have this utxo database, in ultraprune (and in my branch of pynode) it's in a leveldb
 458 2012-09-28 05:11:54 <amiller> this database gets slower as it gets bigger, and it will presumably get bigger if more people use bitcoin
 459 2012-09-28 05:12:27 <amiller> but if the unspent outputs are represented by a merkle tree in each block (or provided by a merged mine chain, or just separately altogether, it doesn't matter so much), then there's an other way to do validation
 460 2012-09-28 05:12:38 <kjj_> heh, ok, we are back to a merkle tree of transaction outputs...  I'm missing something.  :)
 461 2012-09-28 05:13:08 <amiller> which is to process a stream of 'proofs' for each transaction that the inputs are currently in the set of available unspent outputs
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 463 2012-09-28 05:14:23 <amiller> this means that you could do full validation without needing to store an index at all, as long as the network is able to 'map-reduce' for you and prepare a sequential stream for you
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 466 2012-09-28 05:15:29 <kjj_> jgarzik: I found it hilarious that you dropped right after you banned tiggr.  I was checking my scrollback to make sure you hadn't banned your own IP by mistake
 467 2012-09-28 05:15:41 <amiller> jgarzik, my pynode is caught up with the front of the chain, my blocks.dat is only 3.0gb, but i've tested this file io api and it is just fine with 5+gb files
 468 2012-09-28 05:16:08 <jgarzik> kjj_: I'll be sure to type "/quit rebooting into new kernel" next time ;p
 469 2012-09-28 05:16:17 <jgarzik> amiller: good
 470 2012-09-28 05:16:28 <jgarzik> amiller: one big file is preferable to blkNNNN.dat
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 472 2012-09-28 05:16:39 <kjj_> new kernel?  bah.  2.4.9 is perfect
 473 2012-09-28 05:20:20 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: except it won't even compile with any maintained compiler, or boot on my system?
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 479 2012-09-28 05:30:42 <jgarzik> amiller: sounds ready for pulling
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 483 2012-09-28 05:31:50 <amiller> jgarzik, you mentioned it was possible to observe problems with reorganizations?
 484 2012-09-28 05:32:30 <amiller> is there a reorg dataset of some kind or an obvious way to simulate reorgs
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 514 2012-09-28 06:14:21 <jgarzik> amiller: the reorg dataset I pointed you to the other day: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/blk0001.dat.bz2
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 531 2012-09-28 06:47:45 <bonks> So with the new smart times in bitcoin-qt will it list the actual datetime the txn took place even if I don't sync for weeks and had txns while offline?
 532 2012-09-28 06:48:16 leotreasure has joined
 533 2012-09-28 06:48:22 <bonks> I've been making it a habit to sync daily to keep accurate datetime records. Wondering if this is still necessary?
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 539 2012-09-28 06:59:03 <Luke-Jr> bonks: it will show the block time
 540 2012-09-28 06:59:05 _sense has joined
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 544 2012-09-28 06:59:16 <_sense> Are there technical limitations that require the bitcoin blockchain to halve every so often? Would it be possible to have an inflationary blockchain with no set maximum generation limit and an increase in supply per block of about 2% per year?
 545 2012-09-28 06:59:17 <Luke-Jr> bonks: it is impossible to know any other time unless you are online when it is broadcast
 546 2012-09-28 06:59:19 <bonks> Luke-Jr: Good enough, thanks
 547 2012-09-28 06:59:40 <bonks> Oh wait, block time that *I* synced it?
 548 2012-09-28 06:59:44 <Luke-Jr> _sense: no technical limitation, just economic
 549 2012-09-28 06:59:51 <Luke-Jr> bonks: the time header of the block that included it
 550 2012-09-28 07:00:12 <Luke-Jr> bonks: so within 90 minutes, on average 10, if it gets accepted into the very next block
 551 2012-09-28 07:00:34 <bonks> That's fine, I just like the dates to be close to accurate
 552 2012-09-28 07:01:07 <Luke-Jr> bonks: the exception would be if you receive a transaction before you get the block
 553 2012-09-28 07:01:19 <Luke-Jr> bonks: smart times tries to keep all entries linear
 554 2012-09-28 07:01:20 Maged has joined
 555 2012-09-28 07:01:22 <bonks> Last time I went on vacation all my transactions were the same datetime and threw me off and my external books
 556 2012-09-28 07:01:45 <bonks> So thank you devs for that feature!
 557 2012-09-28 07:01:49 <Luke-Jr> an easy way to mess it up, is to send before you're done syncing
 558 2012-09-28 07:01:59 <bonks> Oh I'm guilty of that
 559 2012-09-28 07:02:03 <Luke-Jr> bonks: you're welcome :p
 560 2012-09-28 07:02:38 <Luke-Jr> bonks: also, regardless of the smart time, RPC will always show the block time as well
 561 2012-09-28 07:02:42 <Luke-Jr> "blocktime"
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 571 2012-09-28 07:06:40 <maaku> _sense: no there is no technical restriction; an alt chain could certainly have a perpetual inflationary reward
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 573 2012-09-28 07:07:15 <maaku> but why would you want that?
 574 2012-09-28 07:08:07 <Luke-Jr> maaku: the inflationary aspect of Bitcoin is good for speculative investors and individual savings, but harmful for economic adoption
 575 2012-09-28 07:08:30 <Luke-Jr> that is, given the choice to spend USD or BTC, the rational person would choose to spend USD
 576 2012-09-28 07:08:32 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 577 2012-09-28 07:08:37 <maaku> Luke-Jr: do you mean deflationary?
 578 2012-09-28 07:09:00 <Luke-Jr> yes, sorry
 579 2012-09-28 07:09:30 <maaku> if so then i agree, but demurrage is a hands-down superior alternative to inflation
 580 2012-09-28 07:09:59 <Luke-Jr> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demurrage does not make sense O.o
 581 2012-09-28 07:10:07 RainbowDashh has joined
 582 2012-09-28 07:10:07 <_sense> There are huge limitations to having a set size of currency
 583 2012-09-28 07:10:07 RainbowDashh has quit (Changing host)
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 585 2012-09-28 07:10:10 <_sense> Specially with bitcoins
 586 2012-09-28 07:10:26 <_sense> Lots wallets, transactions to invalid/non-used/lost addresses
 587 2012-09-28 07:10:34 <maaku> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)
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 589 2012-09-28 07:10:49 <_sense> The more or less guaranteed increase in the conversion rate of usd/btc creates a hoarding situation
 590 2012-09-28 07:11:05 <_sense> Why should i spend or transact the bitcoins I have now, when in 8 years there wont be as many created and the value will be higher?
 591 2012-09-28 07:11:38 <_sense> An inflationary chain with an annual inflation rate of like 1-2% would be favorable to me over a chain with a set limit to currency
 592 2012-09-28 07:11:53 <maaku> _sense: bitcoins are essentially infinitely divisible, if needed
 593 2012-09-28 07:11:54 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I don't see how that's any difference in practice.
 594 2012-09-28 07:12:30 <Luke-Jr> _sense: there will in fact be more created in 8 years
 595 2012-09-28 07:12:37 <Luke-Jr> just a slower rate of increase
 596 2012-09-28 07:12:39 <_sense> Ya, but 12.5 vs 50
 597 2012-09-28 07:13:12 <Luke-Jr> the deflationary aspect of Bitcoin encourages hoarding, which means less supply on the market ;)
 598 2012-09-28 07:13:24 <_sense> less people actually using it for a currency
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 600 2012-09-28 07:13:46 <_sense> Something like bitcoins in an internet accessible 3rd world country would do wonders.
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 602 2012-09-28 07:14:32 <_sense> But it would need to be inflationary to support growth and maintain exchange stability.
 603 2012-09-28 07:14:53 <maaku> Luke-Jr: quite the opposite; only when you make oversimplifying assumptions is inflation the same as demurrage in theory
 604 2012-09-28 07:14:58 <maaku> in practice, demurrage affects all account holders equally and instantly, whereas price inflation has time-delay effects exploited by the well-connected financial elite
 605 2012-09-28 07:15:09 <maaku> demurrage results in higher, and more constant monetary velocity, resulting in price and interest rate stability
 606 2012-09-28 07:15:44 <Luke-Jr> maaku: perhaps you're working under the assumption that urusy is tolerated? I'm not.
 607 2012-09-28 07:16:01 <_sense> All I know is, I'm not going to be doing anything with my bitcoins until well after 210,000. Why should I?
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 609 2012-09-28 07:16:14 <_sense> If the bitcoins inflated at 210,000 I would have no reason to hoard.
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 611 2012-09-28 07:16:22 <_sense> I would have an incentive to use them.
 612 2012-09-28 07:16:30 <maaku> quite the opposite, by setting demurrage equal to the basic interest rate (liquidity premium), usury is eliminated
 613 2012-09-28 07:16:31 <Luke-Jr> _sense: hoarding improves the market value
 614 2012-09-28 07:16:49 <maaku> and the the currency becomes only a medium of exchange, not a store of value
 615 2012-09-28 07:16:49 <Luke-Jr> maaku: interest is usury
 616 2012-09-28 07:17:03 <maaku> basic interest is usury
 617 2012-09-28 07:17:04 <Luke-Jr> maaku: store of value is needed
 618 2012-09-28 07:17:46 <maaku> risk premium is compensation for the risk taken in development of real capital
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 620 2012-09-28 07:18:16 <maaku> store of value is needed, that's why we have deflationary bitcoin ;)
 621 2012-09-28 07:18:24 <maaku> it's not an either-or
 622 2012-09-28 07:18:45 <maaku> one could transact in demurrage-coin, and store wealth in bitcoin
 623 2012-09-28 07:19:14 <_sense> Why would anyone store wealth in bitcoin if no one uses it as a currency because everyone is hoarding?
 624 2012-09-28 07:19:22 <Luke-Jr> I don't see a point to having a demurrage-coin
 625 2012-09-28 07:20:05 <_sense> It'll eventually just become a useless bit like every other bit and the price will crash.
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 727 2012-09-28 09:56:12 <MC-Eeepc> demurrage i grate
 728 2012-09-28 09:56:15 <MC-Eeepc> OCCUPY BITCOIN
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 739 2012-09-28 10:12:46 <denisx> I think that the macosx version of bitcoin still has the 100% problem
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 741 2012-09-28 10:14:09 <denisx> at least while updating the blockchain
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 763 2012-09-28 11:02:16 <sipa> denisx: if it's using 100% cpu during block download (after the last checkpoint, 193000), you're lucky
 764 2012-09-28 11:02:28 <sipa> it means the bottleneck is signature verification and not disk indexing
 765 2012-09-28 11:03:14 <denisx> sipa: hmm, Iam not sure
 766 2012-09-28 11:03:28 <denisx> how much cpu does say 100 new blocks use?
 767 2012-09-28 11:04:01 <sipa> you should be seeinga few blocks per second
 768 2012-09-28 11:04:32 <denisx> sipa: my bitcoind updated ca. one week of new blocks and needed 30min of 100% cpu time
 769 2012-09-28 11:04:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 770 2012-09-28 11:04:50 <sipa> what cpu?
 771 2012-09-28 11:04:54 <denisx> core i7
 772 2012-09-28 11:05:12 <sipa> that sounds slow
 773 2012-09-28 11:05:20 <denisx> sipa: thats my point! ;)
 774 2012-09-28 11:05:37 <sipa> yes, looks like there's something wrong still
 775 2012-09-28 11:05:52 <sipa> but i haven't benchmarked non-ultraprune bitcoind for some time
 776 2012-09-28 11:07:12 <denisx> I stopped my bitcoind now, I will start it later and take note how long it needs for how many blocks...
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 778 2012-09-28 11:09:51 <sipa> i have seen reports of accumulating cpu usage that gets solved with a restart
 779 2012-09-28 11:09:59 <sipa> but i haven't experienced that myself
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 793 2012-09-28 11:28:11 <MC-Eeepc> 70 gigaflops per watt
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 795 2012-09-28 11:28:13 <MC-Eeepc> is that good
 796 2012-09-28 11:31:06 <sipa> no idea... but you know flops are entirely meaningless for bitcoin?
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 800 2012-09-28 11:40:35 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm, i have a commit that moves block import to a separate thread in ultraprune
 801 2012-09-28 11:40:48 <sipa> how do you think it should interact with the bootstrap.dat thing?
 802 2012-09-28 11:41:11 <sipa> i'd say that bootstrap should be done as the last thing in that thread?
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 830 2012-09-28 12:29:33 <sipa> does someone know whether any of the BSDs have fdatasync?
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 838 2012-09-28 12:39:21 <_dr> openbsd just has fsync
 839 2012-09-28 12:41:49 <sipa> _dr: feel free to suggest a change for #1879
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 858 2012-09-28 13:03:12 <jgarzik> sipa: netbsd has fdatasync
 859 2012-09-28 13:03:56 <jgarzik> sipa: yes, bootstrap.dat should be last...  though looking through the code, it seemed like we should do block import before loading the wallet
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 862 2012-09-28 13:18:33 <jgarzik> sipa: googling seems to indicate openbsd and freebsd do not
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 873 2012-09-28 13:30:40 * sipa should stop reading those foundation threads on the forum
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 876 2012-09-28 13:32:26 <Luke-Jr> trolls take over already?
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 878 2012-09-28 13:32:57 <kjj_> they took over like 5 minutes after Gavin posted
 879 2012-09-28 13:33:05 <Luke-Jr> lol figures
 880 2012-09-28 13:34:03 <kjj_> the sad part is that I don't think they are trolls.  I think they just really are that stupid
 881 2012-09-28 13:34:06 <gmaxwell> There is a bit of a selection bias there; non-paranoids won't have much to say about it— "Interesting. Lets see how this goes." :-)
 882 2012-09-28 13:34:14 <gavinandresen> invent a troll-free means of communication and you'll be rich.
 883 2012-09-28 13:34:22 <jgarzik> hehehe
 884 2012-09-28 13:34:50 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Prerequisite: A device to allow stabbing people in the face over the Internet.
 885 2012-09-28 13:34:56 <kjj_> the latest is that registering it in DC is sinister
 886 2012-09-28 13:35:03 <Luke-Jr> lol XD
 887 2012-09-28 13:35:07 <jgarzik> well it is a community with a sizable contingent of anti-US crypto-anarchists
 888 2012-09-28 13:35:14 <jgarzik> thus "US" + "organization" == evil
 889 2012-09-28 13:35:17 <gavinandresen> I'm a member of Amherst Town Meeting, and even that hundreds-of-years-old form of communication has its own breed of trolls.
 890 2012-09-28 13:35:20 <jgarzik> no logical goes further
 891 2012-09-28 13:35:26 <jgarzik> *logic
 892 2012-09-28 13:35:36 <sipa> jgarzik: i read that as "sizable continent"
 893 2012-09-28 13:35:46 <kjj_> heh.  my county board has been hosting town hall meetings about the budget, and that was full of trolls too
 894 2012-09-28 13:35:54 <jgarzik> if they were all on one continent, they would be easier to ignore
 895 2012-09-28 13:35:54 <gmaxwell> kjj_: I should combine the octets of the IP with some random operators and make it equal 666 and post that. :P
 896 2012-09-28 13:35:56 * jgarzik runs
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 898 2012-09-28 13:36:38 <gavinandresen> I'm trying to figure out what I could post that would distract them....
 899 2012-09-28 13:36:44 * jgarzik rofl'd at someone, claiming to be an SA goon/troll, saying SA thought this would be a good idea
 900 2012-09-28 13:36:44 <kjj_> the octets of www sum to 556.  you only need to find 110 more and you are set
 901 2012-09-28 13:36:49 <gavinandresen> Maybe I should announce I'm giving a talk at the NSA next month.
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 903 2012-09-28 13:36:53 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: :)
 904 2012-09-28 13:37:14 <gavinandresen> (then followup and say it was "cancelled")
 905 2012-09-28 13:37:25 <kjj_> NSA?  bah.  How about giving a talk to the local Masons group?
 906 2012-09-28 13:37:32 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: 'traveling to utah to speak at the opening of a new datacenter; unfortunately it's confidential so I can't share details"
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 908 2012-09-28 13:37:40 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: lol
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 910 2012-09-28 13:37:49 <Luke-Jr> LOL
 911 2012-09-28 13:38:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hey, maybe that same selection bias will keep the anarchy-nuts from joining? ;)
 912 2012-09-28 13:38:15 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: most likely
 913 2012-09-28 13:38:20 <kjj_> hey Gavin, how's your PM queue?  hundreds or thousands?
 914 2012-09-28 13:38:34 <gavinandresen> not as long as you'd think, actually.
 915 2012-09-28 13:38:59 <gmaxwell> kjj_: hah. Like anyone talking cares enough about facts to ask many questions?
 916 2012-09-28 13:39:00 <gavinandresen> kjj_: thanks for the constructive suggestions, by the way.
 917 2012-09-28 13:39:11 <kjj_> oh, right.  I keep forgetting that the hundreds of posts in the threads are coming from like 3 dudes
 918 2012-09-28 13:39:29 <kjj_> gavinandresen: the term overlap part is the big one
 919 2012-09-28 13:39:40 <gavinandresen> I think my new forum-efficiency policy will be "If your ignore has even a touch of yellow, you go on my ignore list"
 920 2012-09-28 13:39:54 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: There were random bilaws questions on IRC; when I looked I couldn't find the bilaws on the site.
 921 2012-09-28 13:40:15 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 922 2012-09-28 13:40:17 <jgarzik> yeah, the bylaws link was posted in here, but not on forum, IIRC
 923 2012-09-28 13:40:20 <kjj_> I need to talk to Theymos, see if we can get a hard-ignore option that also cuts replies to that person, and doesn't even show as ignored
 924 2012-09-28 13:40:21 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: https://github.com/engagestrategy/btc-foundation
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 928 2012-09-28 13:40:37 <gavinandresen> oops, wait, no wrong repo....
 929 2012-09-28 13:40:40 <jgarzik> kjj_: theymos is very anti-censorship
 930 2012-09-28 13:40:53 <Luke-Jr> yellow?
 931 2012-09-28 13:41:02 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo
 932 2012-09-28 13:41:13 <jgarzik> kjj_: VERY
 933 2012-09-28 13:41:17 <gavinandresen> yellow ignore on the forums means a bunch of people are ignoring you
 934 2012-09-28 13:41:28 <jgarzik> kjj_: he refuses to delete blatant scams etc.
 935 2012-09-28 13:41:43 <gavinandresen> ... I think I'll outsource the "is this person worth listening to" to The Crowd...
 936 2012-09-28 13:42:24 <kjj_> jgarzik: it would still be opt-in and personal.  it would just increase the level of ignore-ness on a person
 937 2012-09-28 13:42:29 <gavinandresen> "If you would like to see a modification or change made to The Bitcoin Foundation's bylaws please submit a pull request to this repo. "
 938 2012-09-28 13:42:34 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 939 2012-09-28 13:43:15 <jgarzik> kjj_: My solution, a partial one admittedly, was to permit thread creators to moderate their thread as they choose.  Give them the ability to hide posts or ban trolls.
 940 2012-09-28 13:43:30 <jgarzik> (I like hiding-by-default rather than banning, but maybe I am a softie)
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 942 2012-09-28 13:43:59 <jgarzik> seems doable within current framework, which already gives special privs to thread creators to e.g. lock the thread
 943 2012-09-28 13:44:00 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that would help
 944 2012-09-28 13:44:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: encourages making redundant threads just because of disagreement about moderation though. No free lunches.
 945 2012-09-28 13:44:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: true, but existing moderators already handle that
 946 2012-09-28 13:44:27 <gmaxwell> Also hides important criticism "hey, this thing is a scam"
 947 2012-09-28 13:44:44 <gmaxwell> (but generally I agree)
 948 2012-09-28 13:45:04 <kjj_> I get a 404 when I try to fork the legal repo
 949 2012-09-28 13:45:46 <sipa> kjj_: oh, that's just the CIA
 950 2012-09-28 13:45:57 <kjj_> bah.  why do I have to allow akami to run javascript in my browser to use github.  that pisses me off
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 959 2012-09-28 13:55:20 <kjj_> gavinandresen: have there been any meetings and resolutions yet?
 960 2012-09-28 13:56:46 lggr has joined
 961 2012-09-28 13:57:08 <gavinandresen> You mean for the Foundation?  Sure, we met in person in Seattle for two days to nail down the initial bylaws and plan the launch, and have weekly Skype meetings
 962 2012-09-28 13:57:34 <kjj_> but no resolutions since the bylaws were approved?
 963 2012-09-28 13:57:47 <kjj_> I ask because the terms information on the website doesn't seem to match the bylaws that I'm reading
 964 2012-09-28 13:58:28 <gavinandresen> I guess you could file an issue against the bylaws repo....
 965 2012-09-28 13:58:52 <gavinandresen> what doesn't match?
 966 2012-09-28 13:59:18 <kjj_> https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/about/governance
 967 2012-09-28 13:59:24 <kjj_> says the first term ends July 31, 2014
 968 2012-09-28 14:00:08 <edcba> resolution 1 : take over the world
 969 2012-09-28 14:00:17 <edcba> should suffice for now
 970 2012-09-28 14:00:25 <kjj_> the word July only appears in the bylaws twice, both as the effective date of the bylaws.  5.3(e) says the terms go Jan 1 to Dec 31 of the second calendar year after election
 971 2012-09-28 14:01:05 <kjj_> that sentence is terrible too.  it suggests that we need to have elections now for the people taking office Jan 1, 2014
 972 2012-09-28 14:01:39 BlackPrapor has joined
 973 2012-09-28 14:01:49 <gavinandresen> kjj_: send email to Patrick, he's the legal codemeister
 974 2012-09-28 14:02:47 <kjj_> I've gotta run to a meeting.  I'll go over them again later.
 975 2012-09-28 14:02:53 boupitch has joined
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 977 2012-09-28 14:03:28 <kjj_> I had some real sharp guys go over some bylaws for me not long ago.  maybe I'll see if I can talk some of them into looking at these too
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 981 2012-09-28 14:04:15 <kjj_> adversarial contract negotiation seems to be REALLY good practice for reading these sorts of things
 982 2012-09-28 14:04:47 <gavinandresen> okey doke. I try to get involved with legal details as little as possible.
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 990 2012-09-28 14:21:20 <kinlo> hmmmz
 991 2012-09-28 14:21:25 <kinlo> now that CIA gone is
 992 2012-09-28 14:22:02 <kinlo> any plans on a replacement?
 993 2012-09-28 14:22:25 <kinlo> it's kinda useless to join #bitcoin-commits right now
 994 2012-09-28 14:23:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 995 2012-09-28 14:23:33 <Diablo-D3> kinlo: nenolod is trying to restore cia
 996 2012-09-28 14:23:56 <kinlo> I was under the impression that all data was lost beyond recovery?
 997 2012-09-28 14:24:09 <Diablo-D3> not sure
 998 2012-09-28 14:24:23 <Diablo-D3> the same admin fuckup also nuked atheme.org, and thats slowly being restored as well
 999 2012-09-28 14:25:17 leotreasure has joined
1000 2012-09-28 14:25:27 <kinlo> I was under the impression that while there are backups of the code base, that the database itselves is permanently lost due to not having any backups
1001 2012-09-28 14:25:44 <kinlo> so if that is correct, we will need to reregister in any case
1002 2012-09-28 14:27:02 <Diablo-D3> well, wait until nenolod gets all that shit up again
1003 2012-09-28 14:27:07 <Diablo-D3> you know whats ironic?
1004 2012-09-28 14:27:11 <Diablo-D3> cia was hosted by his company
1005 2012-09-28 14:27:19 <Diablo-D3> then he sold his company to a bigger company
1006 2012-09-28 14:27:31 <Diablo-D3> then the bigger company decided to just fuck everybody everywhere forever
1007 2012-09-28 14:27:45 lggr has joined
1008 2012-09-28 14:28:04 <Diablo-D3> thanks enzu, inc.
1009 2012-09-28 14:28:08 <Diablo-D3> thanks alot.
1010 2012-09-28 14:30:00 Guest50322 is now known as arij
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1014 2012-09-28 14:37:57 <kinlo> btw, esr was working on a replacement for cia
1015 2012-09-28 14:38:27 <Diablo-D3> hes doing it wrong
1016 2012-09-28 14:38:33 <Diablo-D3> what we need is a redundant message transport
1017 2012-09-28 14:39:26 lggr has joined
1018 2012-09-28 14:39:48 <kinlo> I didn't look into the details of esr's implementation
1019 2012-09-28 14:40:18 <kinlo> but after reading the cia website, it's clear something must be done, I don't believe that it will be returning, at least not the database
1020 2012-09-28 14:45:04 <arij> best linux distro go
1021 2012-09-28 14:45:09 <arij> gogoogo
1022 2012-09-28 14:45:53 <kinlo> arij: ?
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1027 2012-09-28 14:51:01 lggr has joined
1028 2012-09-28 14:52:36 <helo> motoblur!
1029 2012-09-28 14:52:54 <copumpkin> rotoblur!
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1031 2012-09-28 14:58:28 EasyAt is now known as !~Easy@81.17.31.43|EasyAt
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1037 2012-09-28 15:07:22 <kjj_> gavinandresen: I tried for a long time to avoid political and legal crap too.  It didn't work, they got me in the end, now I spend half my time on that crap
1038 2012-09-28 15:08:06 lggr has joined
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1042 2012-09-28 15:12:23 <kreal> question
1043 2012-09-28 15:12:36 <kreal> I have two transactions with the same txid, is this possible ?
1044 2012-09-28 15:12:49 toffoo has quit ()
1045 2012-09-28 15:12:59 <sipa> no, but you can have one transaction that affects you two times
1046 2012-09-28 15:13:06 <sipa> so it may be listed twice
1047 2012-09-28 15:13:21 <kreal> it is to two difference addresses.
1048 2012-09-28 15:13:40 <sipa> doesn't change a thing :)
1049 2012-09-28 15:14:05 <kreal> hmmm
1050 2012-09-28 15:14:10 <sipa> BlueMatt: reason i asked for testing branches as is instead of merging, is that i'm more interested in whether the pull request is sane than whether it's currently up to date
1051 2012-09-28 15:14:21 <kreal> ok I see.
1052 2012-09-28 15:14:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1055 2012-09-28 15:16:34 <sipa> kreal: regarding your PM: looks exactly like what I mean
1056 2012-09-28 15:16:39 <kreal> ok
1057 2012-09-28 15:16:42 <kreal> perfect thanks.
1058 2012-09-28 15:16:45 <sipa> it's a transaction with multiple outputs
1059 2012-09-28 15:16:51 <sipa> and two of them are to addresses of yours
1060 2012-09-28 15:17:21 <kreal> off to fix walletbit... apparently I did not take this in regards for my latest code update.
1061 2012-09-28 15:17:24 da2ce741 has joined
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1063 2012-09-28 15:20:23 <kreal> fixed.
1064 2012-09-28 15:20:28 <kreal> thanks sipa.
1065 2012-09-28 15:20:56 <kreal> most have been off my game hehe
1066 2012-09-28 15:23:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1067 2012-09-28 15:24:25 <Eliel> here's a suggestion. Any thoughts? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1882
1068 2012-09-28 15:25:14 da2ce741 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1070 2012-09-28 15:29:20 asa1024 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1071 2012-09-28 15:30:03 <kjj_> ha!  I just noticed that some lucky bastard is doing the initial block download from one of my p2pool nodes that runs entirely from RAM
1072 2012-09-28 15:33:03 <Diablo-D3> lol
1073 2012-09-28 15:33:04 <Diablo-D3> zoomh
1074 2012-09-28 15:33:06 <Diablo-D3> zoomh
1075 2012-09-28 15:33:09 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
1076 2012-09-28 15:33:12 <Diablo-D3> zoomj
1077 2012-09-28 15:33:26 <kjj_> ha!
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1087 2012-09-28 15:48:06 <Joric> bitcoinfoundation.com should redirect to .org, wrong cert looks baad
1088 2012-09-28 15:48:54 lggr has joined
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1098 2012-09-28 16:01:03 <CluckCreek> I send a payment to a multisig address and need to find correct output from the transaction so I can generate and sign a transaction to release those funds later on. My process for finding the correct output is:
1099 2012-09-28 16:01:12 <CluckCreek> 1. Using the txid that sendtoaddress returned, get a raw tx (verbose) 2. Get the vout array 3. For each element in the array, get the scriptpubkey object 4. Check if there is exactly 1 address in the address array 5. If so, check if it's the address I sent to. 6. If a match, get the value of n from the output object and return.
1100 2012-09-28 16:01:30 <CluckCreek> Is that correct/the best way to do it?
1101 2012-09-28 16:03:12 <jgarzik> sipa: I agree that IMPLEMENT_RANDOMIZE_STACK is largely superfluous
1102 2012-09-28 16:03:23 <jgarzik> and leads to ugly thread-func-calls-real-thread-func code
1103 2012-09-28 16:04:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1104 2012-09-28 16:04:45 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
1105 2012-09-28 16:07:26 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1106 2012-09-28 16:07:34 <CluckCreek> This is my code: http://pastebin.com/vZ6j2zBq
1107 2012-09-28 16:08:33 rdponticelli has joined
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1109 2012-09-28 16:11:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: I dunno what you mean about it being optimized out— I see it in gdb backtraces, appears to work to me.
1110 2012-09-28 16:12:39 jurov is now known as away!~jurov@84.245.71.31|jurov
1111 2012-09-28 16:13:05 <gmaxwell> CluckCreek: sounds right (I haven't looked at the code)
1112 2012-09-28 16:13:28 <kjj_> does the IsMine() call not work in the case he is describing?
1113 2012-09-28 16:14:58 <Joric> addr.dat should probably be named peers.dat ppl get confused
1114 2012-09-28 16:15:21 <kjj_> Joric: 0.7
1115 2012-09-28 16:15:57 <Joric> oh lol i swear i didn't know
1116 2012-09-28 16:16:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1117 2012-09-28 16:16:23 <Joric> ppl think alike
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1120 2012-09-28 16:19:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: iirc i checked the generated assembly once, and it got turned into a loop + one function call
1121 2012-09-28 16:20:46 <gmaxwell> hm. may depend on the optimization level.
1122 2012-09-28 16:20:57 <jgarzik> I think "use a modern compiler with stack protector" is a better answer than crapping the code
1123 2012-09-28 16:21:22 <gmaxwell> and an OS with ASLR.
1124 2012-09-28 16:21:28 lggr has joined
1125 2012-09-28 16:22:02 <gmaxwell> it would be nice to get relro,fstackprotector,etc enabled in the windows and mac builds...
1126 2012-09-28 16:22:07 <SomeoneWeird> aslr
1127 2012-09-28 16:22:08 <SomeoneWeird> lol
1128 2012-09-28 16:22:11 <jgarzik> I grant that stack-protector is not strictly the same thing... the main point being that it would be better to align ourselves with the modern tools & techniques that everybody else is using to attack these sorts of problems.
1129 2012-09-28 16:22:23 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1130 2012-09-28 16:22:34 <jgarzik> there are a wide assortment of "little tricks" that should be enabled / turned on
1131 2012-09-28 16:22:48 Maccer has joined
1132 2012-09-28 16:23:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: btc.org does not redirect
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1141 2012-09-28 16:30:32 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: DNS for btc.org will be redirected soon
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1144 2012-09-28 16:32:51 <jgarzik> hmmm
1145 2012-09-28 16:33:05 <jgarzik> surely we need "-z noexecstack" too
1146 2012-09-28 16:33:09 lggr has joined
1147 2012-09-28 16:34:31 <sipa> looks like it
1148 2012-09-28 16:35:12 Maccer has quit (Excess Flood)
1149 2012-09-28 16:36:33 <_dr> hasn't ibm ssp been in gcc for years?
1150 2012-09-28 16:37:12 <_dr> and the X^W (what you call noexecstack) is done anyway by x86 CPUs?
1151 2012-09-28 16:37:39 <Diablo-D3> its called nx on x86
1152 2012-09-28 16:37:56 <Diablo-D3> all amd64 cpus support it, some final gen ia32 support it
1153 2012-09-28 16:38:14 <_dr> i guess that's what i'm talking about
1154 2012-09-28 16:38:19 <_dr> hardware-enforced DEP
1155 2012-09-28 16:38:25 <jgarzik> looks like my Fedora 17 bitcoind build already has GNU_STACK in the ELF file
1156 2012-09-28 16:38:58 <jgarzik> but it's marked RW not R...  wonder if those flags signal HW protection requested, or something else
1157 2012-09-28 16:39:20 <sipa> surely you want your stack to be writable?
1158 2012-09-28 16:39:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1159 2012-09-28 16:39:45 <_dr> sipa: surely
1160 2012-09-28 16:39:49 <_dr> but not executable :)
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1162 2012-09-28 16:40:02 <sipa> yes, exactly
1163 2012-09-28 16:40:11 <jgarzik> sipa: you misunderstand.  I am wondering if that means GNU_STACK may be changed at runtime
1164 2012-09-28 16:40:18 <sipa> ah
1165 2012-09-28 16:40:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: ack, but Im more interested in (assuming the pull merges) whether master would be sane after pull than whether the pull itself is sane
1166 2012-09-28 16:40:49 <BlueMatt> because if master wouldnt be sane, Id assume it cant be pulled until it gets updated
1167 2012-09-28 16:40:53 <jgarzik> which might be the case, if those flags indicate GNU_STACK ELF bit malleability, and not HW protection requested
1168 2012-09-28 16:41:16 <jgarzik> in any case, I don't think this is harmful: -Wl,-z,noexecstack
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1171 2012-09-28 16:41:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: but that doesn't tell me anything
1172 2012-09-28 16:41:43 lggr has joined
1173 2012-09-28 16:41:44 <sipa> i already know whether it merges or not
1174 2012-09-28 16:41:55 <BlueMatt> Im not saying it should test whether it merges or not
1175 2012-09-28 16:41:55 <sipa> and merging can be trivial but not automatic
1176 2012-09-28 16:42:05 <BlueMatt> Im saying test the merged version, not the original
1177 2012-09-28 16:42:12 <sipa> yes i know what it is doing
1178 2012-09-28 16:42:29 <sipa> i just observe that it rarely tells me something i don't know
1179 2012-09-28 16:42:33 <BlueMatt> then Im confused on what you are asking about
1180 2012-09-28 16:42:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: forum reports may be correct... bitcoinfoundation.org might be seeing a DDoS
1181 2012-09-28 16:42:42 crazyMF has joined
1182 2012-09-28 16:42:43 <jgarzik> sadly expected
1183 2012-09-28 16:42:44 <sipa> in the majority of cases, the problem is that it's trivially outdated
1184 2012-09-28 16:42:46 <jgarzik> given this crowd :(
1185 2012-09-28 16:42:54 <BlueMatt> oh, bitcoin foundation announced?
1186 2012-09-28 16:43:01 <sipa> yes
1187 2012-09-28 16:43:05 <BlueMatt> nice
1188 2012-09-28 16:43:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'd rather not lose the information about whether the pull as such is sane, in the case it is outdated
1189 2012-09-28 16:43:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: I would think trivially outdated means merge conflicts more than it fails after merge but not before
1190 2012-09-28 16:43:44 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: announced and prompted DDoS'd, sigh
1191 2012-09-28 16:43:46 <jgarzik> *promptly
1192 2012-09-28 16:43:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: not surprising... :(
1193 2012-09-28 16:44:09 <kjj_> shit.  am I allowed to make snide remarks to a forum moderator if he's being a tool on the forums?
1194 2012-09-28 16:44:23 <BlueMatt> kjj_: if its Diablo-D3, no
1195 2012-09-28 16:44:34 <kjj_> Hazek
1196 2012-09-28 16:44:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: a "cannot merge but test succeed on pull branch as such" would of course be even more interesting
1197 2012-09-28 16:44:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: but that sounds like more work
1198 2012-09-28 16:44:46 <kjj_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113400.msg1228647#msg1228647
1199 2012-09-28 16:44:57 <kjj_> I want to tell him to cut bigger airholes in his tinfoil mask
1200 2012-09-28 16:45:00 <BlueMatt> kjj_: I dont know the forum mods really at all
1201 2012-09-28 16:45:15 <jgarzik> kjj_: free country.  the forum has been a ghetto full of trolls for well over a year
1202 2012-09-28 16:45:28 <Diablo-D3> [12:37:23] <kjj_> shit.  am I allowed to make snide remarks to a forum moderator if he's being a tool on the forums?
1203 2012-09-28 16:45:32 <Diablo-D3> mod, yes, admin, no
1204 2012-09-28 16:45:33 <jgarzik> some even managed to get moderator powers
1205 2012-09-28 16:45:35 <Diablo-D3> mods cant ban you
1206 2012-09-28 16:46:24 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1207 2012-09-28 16:46:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: If "cannot merge" means merge conflicts then sure (and it theoretically wouldnt be too much work...) if its test merged version, then test original...
1208 2012-09-28 16:47:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: is it clear what i'm arguing for, actually...?
1209 2012-09-28 16:47:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1210 2012-09-28 16:47:58 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, I just dont see it as useful as testing the merged one
1211 2012-09-28 16:48:18 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression the idea of pull-tester was to test for merge-ability, not direct sanity
1212 2012-09-28 16:48:24 darkee has joined
1213 2012-09-28 16:48:33 <BlueMatt> or, really, sanity of master if this were merged
1214 2012-09-28 16:49:16 sgstair has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1215 2012-09-28 16:49:18 _sgstair has joined
1216 2012-09-28 16:49:19 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
1217 2012-09-28 16:49:52 <sipa> ok, too bad you disagree :)
1218 2012-09-28 16:50:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: otoh, if you want to code it, Ill send you the .py ;)
1219 2012-09-28 16:51:45 <jgarzik> git allows you to work disconnected from master branch, so I think it is useful to test the branch HEAD
1220 2012-09-28 16:52:33 <jgarzik> maybe, separate from that, results of a test merge.  but sadly our pulls rapidly become not-clean merges.
1221 2012-09-28 16:53:06 lggr has joined
1222 2012-09-28 16:54:04 <BlueMatt> alright...point taken...Ill go switch it...
1223 2012-09-28 16:54:58 <sipa> thanks!
1224 2012-09-28 16:55:00 pusle has joined
1225 2012-09-28 16:55:22 <sipa> (you should have gone the 'if you want it, code it!' way a further :p)
1226 2012-09-28 16:55:28 <sipa> *a bit
1227 2012-09-28 16:55:55 <BlueMatt> I would have, but I cant put pull-tester.py up on github since it uses basic auth and the password for @BitcoinPullTester is in the src...
1228 2012-09-28 16:58:33 <BlueMatt> ok, well it no longer tests merge-ability, but I suppose github shows that anyway...should be testing pull heads now (as long as it doesnt blow up)
1229 2012-09-28 16:59:21 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1231 2012-09-28 17:03:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: good reply
1232 2012-09-28 17:03:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: PS website is back
1233 2012-09-28 17:04:40 <asa1024> who writes the mac source code for bit coin?
1234 2012-09-28 17:04:42 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: thanks.  And RE: website: not sure why it was down, I'm watching that....
1235 2012-09-28 17:04:47 <helo> is the AMA - Bitcoin Foundation official?
1236 2012-09-28 17:05:27 <jgarzik> helo: yes
1237 2012-09-28 17:05:31 <gavinandresen> if you mean is it an Officially Sanctioned by Bitcoin Foundation, Incorporated event.... yes
1238 2012-09-28 17:06:04 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: saw some IRC reports, confirmed down-ness from 3 network locations here.  but that was then.  now it's back up.  ;p
1239 2012-09-28 17:06:23 <jgarzik> asa1024: what little Mac source code there is... gavinandresen
1240 2012-09-28 17:06:26 [Tycho] has joined
1241 2012-09-28 17:06:29 <jgarzik> asa1024: most of the code is cross-platform
1242 2012-09-28 17:06:46 <asa1024> thank you sir!
1243 2012-09-28 17:06:48 <[Tycho]> Is there anyone with a bitcoin-wiki account ?
1244 2012-09-28 17:07:26 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: yes
1245 2012-09-28 17:08:10 <[Tycho]> Someone added wrong info about our "Reclaimer" project. Can you please remove the note about "one bond equals to 1 GH/s" ?
1246 2012-09-28 17:08:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1247 2012-09-28 17:09:38 <[Tycho]> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#DeepBit
1248 2012-09-28 17:09:48 maaku has joined
1249 2012-09-28 17:11:55 <gavinandresen> hazek is annoying me... he edited my original foundation launch post because he thought I screwed up URLS and broke them all (changed .org to .com), thinks the thread should move from the main Bitcoin Discussion forum (if talking about the foundation isn't fit for the main forum what is?), and is now being OCD about the frickin name....
1250 2012-09-28 17:12:15 * gavinandresen goes to eat lunch, he's probably just grumpy cause he's hungry
1251 2012-09-28 17:13:13 lggr has joined
1252 2012-09-28 17:13:18 <[Tycho]> Oh, found one more occurence of same wrong info here. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ICBIT
1253 2012-09-28 17:15:20 <[Tycho]> <b>Warning</b>:  mcrypt_create_iv() [<a href='function.mcrypt-create-iv'>function.mcrypt-create-iv</a>]: Cannot open source device in <b>/www/b/bi/bitcoin.it/www/phase3/includes/CryptRand.php</b> on line <b>281</b><br />
1254 2012-09-28 17:15:20 <[Tycho]> <b>Warning</b>:  mcrypt_create_iv() [<a href='function.mcrypt-create-iv'>function.mcrypt-create-iv</a>]: Cannot open source device in <b>/www/b/bi/bitcoin.it/www/phase3/includes/CryptRand.php</b> on line <b>281</b><br />
1255 2012-09-28 17:15:36 <[Tycho]> Looks like something is a bit broken... (tried to create an account myself)
1256 2012-09-28 17:17:02 <phantomcircuit> [Tycho], it's trying to open /dev/random but being denied
1257 2012-09-28 17:17:30 <phantomcircuit> im guessing because the server is running grsec or something which limits access to /dev/random to root to avoid the entropy pool being drained by an attacker
1258 2012-09-28 17:17:52 <[Tycho]> So how it's generating new seeds then ?
1259 2012-09-28 17:18:15 <kjj_> it probably uses getRandomNumber()  http://xkcd.com/221/
1260 2012-09-28 17:18:47 <phantomcircuit> [Tycho], i would guess that there is a fallback to /dev/urandom when /dev/random fails
1261 2012-09-28 17:18:56 <phantomcircuit> but that it doesn't properly silence the warning
1262 2012-09-28 17:19:05 <phantomcircuit> that's a fairly typical pattern
1263 2012-09-28 17:19:06 <[Tycho]> Cool.
1264 2012-09-28 17:19:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1266 2012-09-28 17:23:03 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1267 2012-09-28 17:23:04 <jgarzik> Interesting.  "Swiss University jumps into mining game" - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113654.0 and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113715.0
1268 2012-09-28 17:23:50 <[Tycho]> Coinbases of those blocks are very different, including both MM and clean bitcoinds, so I'd rather expect just a relay.
1269 2012-09-28 17:23:52 <kjj_> no, no, no.  This is bitcoin.  you have to phrase it right.  "Swiss university attacks bitcoin."
1270 2012-09-28 17:23:55 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: sigh.  I had hoped hazek (obviously anti-BF) would not abuse his mod powers to bury the thread.
1271 2012-09-28 17:23:58 <jgarzik> *facepalm*
1272 2012-09-28 17:24:21 <jgarzik> kjj_: the second link covered that ;-)
1273 2012-09-28 17:25:16 <helo> "We focus on doublespending attacks on fast payments and demonstrate
1274 2012-09-28 17:25:25 <helo> that these attacks can be mounted at low cost on currently deployed versions of Bitcoin."
1275 2012-09-28 17:25:39 <helo> not very low cost if you're doing it with a 51% attack...
1276 2012-09-28 17:25:48 Eslbaer has joined
1277 2012-09-28 17:25:51 TheEslbear has joined
1278 2012-09-28 17:26:05 <kjj_> but what an amazing attack.  They are mining, and they are being sneaky enough to include normal community transactions in their blocks so that we don't catch on
1279 2012-09-28 17:27:08 <[Tycho]> "Gyrsur" is known for NOT understanding how block relays and blockchaininfo's detection works.
1280 2012-09-28 17:28:05 <[Tycho]> He already accused me for changing IPs of deepbit and something else for slush too.
1281 2012-09-28 17:28:05 TheEslbear has quit (Client Quit)
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1286 2012-09-28 17:33:41 <[Tycho]> Fixed the page myself.
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1291 2012-09-28 17:36:58 <yellowhat> are there any realistic etimates on how much hardware was used by the ETHZ for this attack?
1292 2012-09-28 17:37:47 <kjj_> yellowhat: the best answer I can give to your question is: mu
1293 2012-09-28 17:38:08 <yellowhat> my question relies on an assumption that is false?
1294 2012-09-28 17:38:20 <kjj_> or at least unproven
1295 2012-09-28 17:39:20 <kjj_> unless you were using "attack" in the academic sense
1296 2012-09-28 17:40:24 InabaEMC has quit ()
1297 2012-09-28 17:40:25 <[Tycho]> At least I can see my blocks in that list :)
1298 2012-09-28 17:40:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1299 2012-09-28 17:40:42 <[Tycho]> So it's possibly just a well-connected node.
1300 2012-09-28 17:41:05 <BlueMatt> we've known that eth zurich has had big nodes up forever...
1301 2012-09-28 17:42:21 lggr has joined
1302 2012-09-28 17:42:34 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: stop the crazy paranoia.
1303 2012-09-28 17:42:48 <gmaxwell> blockchain.info is frequently totally crazy about block sources.
1304 2012-09-28 17:43:10 <gmaxwell> they're just reporting where they heard it first, subject to the current state of their connections.. when they don't otherwise know the source.
1305 2012-09-28 17:44:01 <kjj_> most miners don't sign their coinbases, so block origin is usually about as close to anonymous as you can get
1306 2012-09-28 17:45:26 <kjj_> I have a tag that adds -addtag=BLAH to make it easy for solo miners to sign blocks, but it isn't safe, so I don't distribute it.  more importantly, there isn't exactly a demand for such a thing because of the anonymous thing
1307 2012-09-28 17:45:29 <yellowhat> gmaxwell. i take back the work attack: when i first checked, i thought they were relying empty blocks. upon a second check it turns out these are very regular blocks and the "well-connected-node" theory seems very plausible (Occams razor)
1308 2012-09-28 17:46:29 <gmaxwell> kjj_: trivial to lie too, which is fun.
1309 2012-09-28 17:46:38 <kjj_> yeah, that too
1310 2012-09-28 17:48:10 <kjj_> ooh.  we could have the foundation run a CA and reject blocks that aren't signed with valid Foundation certs
1311 2012-09-28 17:48:40 <yellowhat> then bitcoin would be much more "solid" and stable we could call it
1312 2012-09-28 17:48:52 <yellowhat> ...SolidCoin?
1313 2012-09-28 17:49:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1314 2012-09-28 17:50:39 <Eliel> kjj_: yay, centralized bitcoin (not)
1315 2012-09-28 17:50:59 <kjj_> heh.  I was just curious how many of the tinfoil crowd were awake in here
1316 2012-09-28 17:51:18 <gmaxwell> where the @#$ my my face stabbing over IP device‽
1317 2012-09-28 17:51:20 <Eliel> does not need tinfoil to see that as a bad idea
1318 2012-09-28 17:51:36 <kjj_> no, but you need tinfoil to think I was serious
1319 2012-09-28 17:51:40 <yellowhat> ok. i have "proof" that it is not ETHZ doing the mining
1320 2012-09-28 17:51:43 <kjj_> or that it would be possible
1321 2012-09-28 17:52:35 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: can you please post it on every thread before stupid things happen?
1322 2012-09-28 17:52:36 <yellowhat> looking at the relayed transactions and their coinbases the destination addresses are shared and reused from at least two mining pools, one of them is BTCGuild
1323 2012-09-28 17:53:02 <gmaxwell> "OMG BTCGuild is in league with ETHZ in their attack!"
1324 2012-09-28 17:53:25 <yellowhat> .. ahm no that is not the reaction i was hoping for
1325 2012-09-28 17:53:39 <[Tycho]> yellowhat: check the kiba's blockorigin site to find out other pools.
1326 2012-09-28 17:54:03 lggr has joined
1327 2012-09-28 17:54:54 tower has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1328 2012-09-28 17:55:10 <kjj_> Kinda funny that hazek is all upset about people insulting his intelligence.  I'm not sure that is possible in the foundation thread
1329 2012-09-28 17:57:59 graingert has joined
1330 2012-09-28 17:59:00 <jgarzik> kjj_: must. resist. ad hominem. response.  ;p
1331 2012-09-28 17:59:08 shamoon has left ()
1332 2012-09-28 17:59:10 <kjj_> heh
1333 2012-09-28 17:59:54 <kjj_> I almost made that response already.  decided it would be unwise to taunt him too directly
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1335 2012-09-28 18:01:24 agricocb has joined
1336 2012-09-28 18:03:05 <gmaxwell> kjj_: I like posting technobabble gibberish on the forums in response to people posting technobabble gibberish.
1337 2012-09-28 18:04:23 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1338 2012-09-28 18:05:32 lggr has joined
1339 2012-09-28 18:06:06 <kjj_> FACT:  shad0wbitz is a tool
1340 2012-09-28 18:06:53 _sense has joined
1341 2012-09-28 18:08:00 <BlueMatt> FACT: the forums are a nearly worthless place to get technical things done
1342 2012-09-28 18:08:55 <kjj_> sadly, we've grown up now.  it isn't just technical things that need to be done
1343 2012-09-28 18:09:00 <jgarzik> some of the technical threads are useful, but it really is 98% noise
1344 2012-09-28 18:09:12 <jgarzik> or a "ghetto" as Jed, founder of MtGox, noted
1345 2012-09-28 18:09:33 <_sense> Is anyone aware of any inflationary chains being worked on?
1346 2012-09-28 18:09:37 diki has joined
1347 2012-09-28 18:10:17 <kjj_> _sense: bitcoin inflated by like 33% in the last year.  does that count?
1348 2012-09-28 18:10:22 <[Tycho]> And now he wants ME to show him the proof :)
1349 2012-09-28 18:10:25 <maaku> kjj_: nice
1350 2012-09-28 18:10:34 <_sense> It's got a fixed size of coins
1351 2012-09-28 18:10:35 dangermouse_ has joined
1352 2012-09-28 18:11:06 <kjj_> but they don't all exist yet.  supply and demand are drive only by active coins, not potential future coins
1353 2012-09-28 18:11:12 <kjj_> er, driven
1354 2012-09-28 18:11:27 <_sense> The majority of coins that will exist do exist.
1355 2012-09-28 18:11:34 <kjj_> not true
1356 2012-09-28 18:11:59 tower has joined
1357 2012-09-28 18:12:01 <kjj_> I mean close, but not quite
1358 2012-09-28 18:12:17 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1359 2012-09-28 18:12:29 <kjj_> we'll hit 50% at some point over the next 4-8 weeks
1360 2012-09-28 18:12:32 <_sense> Anyway by inflation I was thinking more along the lines of a fixed starting coins per block size with an inflation rate of 2% per year with no limit on coin generation
1361 2012-09-28 18:14:54 <_sense> People don't spend bitcoins
1362 2012-09-28 18:15:36 <gmaxwell> _sense: there is a whole lot of blockchain traffic.. sometimes millions of dollars worth moved in a few hours, for not spending....
1363 2012-09-28 18:15:47 <_sense> You mean being hoarded?
1364 2012-09-28 18:16:14 <kjj_> _sense: I'm not aware of any that use an unlimited generation function.  I checked a few, and they all decrease over time
1365 2012-09-28 18:16:53 <kjj_> _sense: hmm.  I spent like 60 BTC in the last month or so out of my mining earnings.
1366 2012-09-28 18:17:01 <_sense> On what?
1367 2012-09-28 18:17:07 t7 has joined
1368 2012-09-28 18:17:23 <kjj_> vodka, clothes, computer parts, membership dues, registration fees
1369 2012-09-28 18:17:26 lggr has joined
1370 2012-09-28 18:17:36 <maaku> freicoin has a perpetual reward, albeit with demurrage so the monetary base remains constant
1371 2012-09-28 18:17:43 <maaku> very similar to an inflation coin
1372 2012-09-28 18:17:55 <_sense> Ya, we talked about the demurrage. I'm just not satisified that people would be willing to adopt it
1373 2012-09-28 18:18:10 <_sense> The whole psychological factor of it feeling like a tax
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1379 2012-09-28 18:31:07 <kjj_> shit, that reminds me.  I need to buy another Tupilak.  I wonder if netrin is still around
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1398 2012-09-28 18:58:15 <makomk> jgarzik: the Swiss university has a  small Python program blindly forwarding blocks very fast, by the looks of it.
1399 2012-09-28 19:02:47 <gmaxwell> makomk: how do you know its a python program?
1400 2012-09-28 19:02:50 lggr has joined
1401 2012-09-28 19:04:32 OneEyed has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1402 2012-09-28 19:05:04 <makomk> gmaxwell: there's a tarball with it in on the front page of the main IP address they're using.
1403 2012-09-28 19:05:10 OneEyed has joined
1404 2012-09-28 19:06:34 D34TH has joined
1405 2012-09-28 19:08:54 <gmaxwell> ah.
1406 2012-09-28 19:09:03 <gmaxwell> do they intend this to be abusive or ?
1407 2012-09-28 19:09:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1408 2012-09-28 19:09:54 <gmaxwell> I've locked that idiot thread on the forum where the howelers think they have umpteen th/s.
1409 2012-09-28 19:10:05 <sipa> forum down?
1410 2012-09-28 19:10:19 <_sense> I thought the swiss universities was confirmed to be 50btc?
1411 2012-09-28 19:10:28 <_sense> er forwarding 50btc blocks*
1412 2012-09-28 19:10:31 topace has joined
1413 2012-09-28 19:10:46 <_sense> There was a guy in #bitcoin earlier that compared the blocks to 50btcs generation and there was a match.
1414 2012-09-28 19:11:13 <sipa> and why do they want to forward blocks?
1415 2012-09-28 19:11:33 <yellowhat> i did point that out on the forums and here. there is lots of proof for that even on blockchain.info
1416 2012-09-28 19:11:37 topace has quit (Changing host)
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1418 2012-09-28 19:11:39 <kjj_> epeen waving.  they want to climb the stats page on blockchain.info
1419 2012-09-28 19:11:43 lggr has joined
1420 2012-09-28 19:11:51 <yellowhat> but not only 50btc also others
1421 2012-09-28 19:12:06 <_sense> was it more than one?
1422 2012-09-28 19:12:17 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: which page of this idiot thread is your post? I want to link to it in my lock message.
1423 2012-09-28 19:12:18 <_sense> thats weird
1424 2012-09-28 19:12:24 <gmaxwell> _sense: it's not weird at all.
1425 2012-09-28 19:12:31 <gmaxwell> the blockchain.info sources are just guesses.
1426 2012-09-28 19:12:39 <gmaxwell> Often uncorrelated with the actual source.
1427 2012-09-28 19:12:40 <_sense> ah
1428 2012-09-28 19:12:48 <yellowhat> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113654.msg1228901#msg1228901 i saw at least one btcGuild block too
1429 2012-09-28 19:13:01 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: yea I saw one too.
1430 2012-09-28 19:14:09 <jgarzik> rofl
1431 2012-09-28 19:14:13 <jgarzik> " Warning - while you were typing 27 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. "
1432 2012-09-28 19:14:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm not that familiar with x86 assembly, but to have functions leave a stack frame, a call is needed, right?
1433 2012-09-28 19:14:30 <yellowhat> gmaxwell, its not that people are dumb. i would find that very exiting if something like that would actually happen. sort of people want to believe in aliens because it makes their world richer.
1434 2012-09-28 19:15:10 <jgarzik> My rambling bitcoin mini-manifesto: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113400.msg1229098#msg1229098
1435 2012-09-28 19:15:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: you could advance the stack pointer manually too.
1436 2012-09-28 19:15:14 <jgarzik> :)
1437 2012-09-28 19:15:16 <kjj_> sipa: in assembly, anything is possible
1438 2012-09-28 19:15:36 <gmaxwell> yellowhat: isn't there enough adventure in bitcoin already? :P
1439 2012-09-28 19:16:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: obviously
1440 2012-09-28 19:16:35 <jgarzik> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_calling_conventions
1441 2012-09-28 19:16:44 <sipa> but this is GCC generated code, so I doubt that
1442 2012-09-28 19:17:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Agree with everything you say there.
1443 2012-09-28 19:18:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1444 2012-09-28 19:18:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: GCC can do tail call optimization to convert recursive functions into loops so it's not implausable that it actually could convert that into a loop. Though it would surprise me. I've see it in the backtraces many times though so I assume it's not doing that.
1445 2012-09-28 19:18:41 <gmaxwell> but maybe I've only seen it while -O0
1446 2012-09-28 19:18:43 <midnightmagic> calling conventions don't have to be that way. netbsd calling conventions put function arguments inside the stack. linux uses as many registers as possible to pass arguments.
1447 2012-09-28 19:19:04 <midnightmagic> for syscalls I mean.
1448 2012-09-28 19:19:04 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: depends on x86 vs x86_64 abi too.
1449 2012-09-28 19:19:09 <copumpkin> I think it'll even do tail calls on non-recursive stuff or mutual recursion
1450 2012-09-28 19:19:17 <copumpkin> it shouldn't really care
1451 2012-09-28 19:19:46 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Oh, has Linux switched for x86_64?
1452 2012-09-28 19:21:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: what I see is this: two functions (the threadXXX one and the threadXXX2 one), the latter only containing one reference to the first in a callq; all the rest are jumps within the function itself (for both functions)
1453 2012-09-28 19:22:19 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: there are deepbit's blocks too.
1454 2012-09-28 19:23:43 lggr has joined
1455 2012-09-28 19:24:53 maqr has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1456 2012-09-28 19:25:48 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: x86_64 linux ABI/calling conventions is totally different from x86 ABI/calling conventions
1457 2012-09-28 19:26:34 vladgiurgiu has joined
1458 2012-09-28 19:27:03 <vladgiurgiu> hello
1459 2012-09-28 19:28:09 <helo> would it serve to discourage sketchy asic manufacturer behavior if an "asic breaker" branch were maintained?
1460 2012-09-28 19:29:00 <kjj_> helo: we couldn't confound one design without breaking them all.
1461 2012-09-28 19:29:20 <helo> yep, it'll break them all
1462 2012-09-28 19:29:41 <kjj_> erm, that would be bad, unless you think that they are all going to turn evil at the same time
1463 2012-09-28 19:29:45 <vladgiurgiu> hey...
1464 2012-09-28 19:30:02 Eslbaer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1465 2012-09-28 19:30:09 <vladgiurgiu> could you please help me in a strange problem
1466 2012-09-28 19:30:09 <kjj_> vladgiurgiu: don't announce that you are going to talk, just talk.  :)
1467 2012-09-28 19:30:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1468 2012-09-28 19:30:15 <helo> it would only be an option while asics are being introduced, particularly before there are competing suppliers
1469 2012-09-28 19:30:32 <vladgiurgiu> how many adresses are by default in a wallet?
1470 2012-09-28 19:30:38 <_sense> With the way they said they're going to distribute the first asics it shouldnt matter
1471 2012-09-28 19:30:48 <_sense> If indeed bfl is going to be the first
1472 2012-09-28 19:31:00 <kjj_> the keypool defaults to 100.  it tries to keep that many fresh, unused keys in the wallet at once
1473 2012-09-28 19:31:16 <vladgiurgiu> and how do I recover them?
1474 2012-09-28 19:31:24 <kjj_> so, when you start for the first time, 100 should be generated.
1475 2012-09-28 19:31:27 dlb76 has joined
1476 2012-09-28 19:31:39 <vladgiurgiu> I have backed up my wallet
1477 2012-09-28 19:31:40 <kjj_> you look at the backup copy you made earlier?
1478 2012-09-28 19:31:48 <vladgiurgiu> yes
1479 2012-09-28 19:31:52 <[Tycho]> Most of ASIC buyers are the very hardcore bitcoin enthusiasts and miners, so they won't welcome protocol changes easily :) Unless something very-very bad happens.
1480 2012-09-28 19:32:05 <vladgiurgiu> and it seams I can't get one of them
1481 2012-09-28 19:32:09 stamit has quit (Quit: stamit)
1482 2012-09-28 19:32:19 <kjj_> vladgiurgiu: what do you mean you can't get one of them?
1483 2012-09-28 19:32:31 lggr has joined
1484 2012-09-28 19:32:49 <[Tycho]> BTW, BBE is broken again.
1485 2012-09-28 19:32:51 <vladgiurgiu> I backed up my wallet ....then made a new adress and got some BTC
1486 2012-09-28 19:32:58 <vladgiurgiu> and didn't back my wallet again
1487 2012-09-28 19:33:18 pusle has quit ()
1488 2012-09-28 19:33:21 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: looks like x86_64 has moved to register-based syscall args in NetBSD too.
1489 2012-09-28 19:33:22 <kjj_> ok, what normally happens is that when you run for the first time, it creates 100 addresses
1490 2012-09-28 19:33:24 <vladgiurgiu> I copied the old wallet and now I can't get that adress I got 4.5 BTC with
1491 2012-09-28 19:33:30 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1492 2012-09-28 19:33:39 <kjj_> when you ask for a new address, it pulls one out of that pool and gives it to you
1493 2012-09-28 19:33:45 <vladgiurgiu> ok
1494 2012-09-28 19:33:48 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: yeah it's pretty sweet
1495 2012-09-28 19:33:51 <jgarzik> compared to 32-bit x86
1496 2012-09-28 19:33:56 <kjj_> the address was in the file the whole time, you just didn't see it until you asked for it
1497 2012-09-28 19:33:58 <vladgiurgiu> I made 100 new adresses and still didn't get it
1498 2012-09-28 19:34:01 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: I'm disappointed somehow. :)
1499 2012-09-28 19:34:05 <kjj_> you won't
1500 2012-09-28 19:34:07 <jgarzik> bah :)
1501 2012-09-28 19:34:19 <vladgiurgiu> and how can I get my 4.5 BTC back
1502 2012-09-28 19:34:25 <kjj_> but the key is in your backup, let the chain sync up, and you'll have your BTC
1503 2012-09-28 19:34:33 <kjj_> do you know the address?
1504 2012-09-28 19:34:42 <vladgiurgiu> I let the chain sync up and still nothing
1505 2012-09-28 19:34:44 <vladgiurgiu> yes
1506 2012-09-28 19:35:09 <kjj_> command line, or QT?
1507 2012-09-28 19:35:18 <vladgiurgiu> can we talk on prv?..QT
1508 2012-09-28 19:35:18 gjs278 has joined
1509 2012-09-28 19:35:25 <kjj_> what block does it say you are on?
1510 2012-09-28 19:35:40 <vladgiurgiu> now?
1511 2012-09-28 19:35:45 <kjj_> yes
1512 2012-09-28 19:36:09 ajf_me has joined
1513 2012-09-28 19:36:24 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: :-) it just seemed so broken-up if some args go in regs, and some go in stack.  Also looks like x86 is still using stack on NetBSD. Huh! Well I wonder now how the rtl decides whether an assembly program should be passed to the Linux emulation layer or not..
1514 2012-09-28 19:36:34 <ajf_me> hey uh
1515 2012-09-28 19:36:39 <ajf_me> on Ubuntu with 0.7 x64
1516 2012-09-28 19:36:45 <ajf_me> no menus?
1517 2012-09-28 19:36:49 <ajf_me> :?
1518 2012-09-28 19:37:04 <ajf_me> how do I get to settings? :(
1519 2012-09-28 19:37:05 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: If the elf header is missing an .ident note, on x86, it used to be that NetBSD would default to assuming the program was a Linux assembly program.
1520 2012-09-28 19:37:06 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: Very true.  But practicality won out.  Registers are just -so much- faster.
1521 2012-09-28 19:37:20 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: And compilers -already- had to have a super-intelligent register allocator, for 32-bit x86
1522 2012-09-28 19:37:29 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: google for "register renaming" sometime
1523 2012-09-28 19:38:21 <Diablo-D3> gcc does insane register magic
1524 2012-09-28 19:38:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1525 2012-09-28 19:39:16 denisx has joined
1526 2012-09-28 19:40:06 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Well now I'm just curious as hell..
1527 2012-09-28 19:41:16 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: your x86 processor does insane register magic, and gcc has to make a guess as to what's going on under the hood ;p
1528 2012-09-28 19:41:17 <kjj_> hey, how big was the keypool back in April?
1529 2012-09-28 19:41:24 lggr has joined
1530 2012-09-28 19:41:47 <sipa> it's always been 100
1531 2012-09-28 19:41:50 <sipa> by default
1532 2012-09-28 19:41:54 <kjj_> ok
1533 2012-09-28 19:42:39 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: Ive bitched about this before
1534 2012-09-28 19:42:52 <jgarzik> kjj_: git history does indeed go back into subversion days
1535 2012-09-28 19:42:52 <Diablo-D3> like intel and amd's newest gen? both have about 120 registers per core
1536 2012-09-28 19:43:04 <Diablo-D3> and may also have register windows to multiply that
1537 2012-09-28 19:43:04 <jgarzik> kjj_: all the subversion history was imported, changeset by changeset
1538 2012-09-28 19:43:13 <sipa> kjj_: since oct 9, 2010
1539 2012-09-28 19:43:13 <kjj_> cool
1540 2012-09-28 19:43:22 <sipa> commit 103849419a9c014a69c76b6f96e48b66cbc838ca
1541 2012-09-28 19:44:04 <kjj_> this guy I'm talking to says he backed up his wallet, got a transaction to one of the addresses from it, restored onto another computer, waited for a sync, and that one transaction isn't showing up
1542 2012-09-28 19:44:44 <kjj_> didn't sound like he could have run through 100 keys to exhaust the keypool either
1543 2012-09-28 19:45:10 <sipa> have him try -rescan
1544 2012-09-28 19:45:53 <kjj_> yeah, but I didn't think that was necessary any more.  or do you still need it if you put the wallet in first and then start the IBD?
1545 2012-09-28 19:46:18 <sipa> you shouldn't ever need it
1546 2012-09-28 19:46:38 <vladgiurgiu> I have tried it
1547 2012-09-28 19:46:52 <sipa> and didn't help?
1548 2012-09-28 19:47:13 TD has joined
1549 2012-09-28 19:47:40 TD_ has joined
1550 2012-09-28 19:47:41 <vladgiurgiu> no
1551 2012-09-28 19:47:50 <kjj_> did jackjack ever update pywallet to handle encryption?
1552 2012-09-28 19:47:56 <gmaxwell> well 100 since there has been a keypool.
1553 2012-09-28 19:48:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1554 2012-09-28 19:48:16 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1555 2012-09-28 19:48:23 <gmaxwell> kjj_: it's possible to end up there if he encrypted after the backup and before the transactions.
1556 2012-09-28 19:48:25 <kjj_> the transaction was April 29th, 2012.
1557 2012-09-28 19:48:39 TD__ has joined
1558 2012-09-28 19:48:43 TD has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1559 2012-09-28 19:48:43 TD__ is now known as TD
1560 2012-09-28 19:49:21 <vladgiurgiu> I remember encrypting it sometime, but don't know when
1561 2012-09-28 19:49:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: gdb on a -flto -O3 binary doesn't show any signs of a working implement stack randomize
1562 2012-09-28 19:50:00 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
1563 2012-09-28 19:50:05 <gmaxwell> (because encrypt replaces the keypool)
1564 2012-09-28 19:50:49 <vladgiurgiu> so did I lose the 4.5 BTC?
1565 2012-09-28 19:51:10 <kjj_> any chance you could try to find another copy of the old wallet?
1566 2012-09-28 19:51:19 <vladgiurgiu> no...
1567 2012-09-28 19:51:21 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: if your backup is pre-encryption, and the payment post-encryption, I'm afraid you lost it
1568 2012-09-28 19:51:47 <kjj_> how long ago did you format and reinstall?
1569 2012-09-28 19:52:00 <vladgiurgiu> and if everything is post encryption
1570 2012-09-28 19:52:06 <vladgiurgiu> let me look
1571 2012-09-28 19:52:09 TD_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1572 2012-09-28 19:52:38 <vladgiurgiu> the backup is from 13th of march
1573 2012-09-28 19:52:47 <vladgiurgiu> I don't know if you had encryption back then
1574 2012-09-28 19:52:53 <kjj_> yeah, there was
1575 2012-09-28 19:53:02 <kjj_> it was some time in 2011 that encryption was added
1576 2012-09-28 19:53:11 <vladgiurgiu> ok
1577 2012-09-28 19:53:13 lggr has joined
1578 2012-09-28 19:53:42 <kjj_> if the format was recent, I would say turn that computer off ASAP, and plug that drive into another box and run pywallet's search mode
1579 2012-09-28 19:53:43 <vladgiurgiu> so then what is the problem?
1580 2012-09-28 19:53:55 <vladgiurgiu> it wasn't recent
1581 2012-09-28 19:54:15 <vladgiurgiu> it was a separate partition that was encrypted
1582 2012-09-28 19:54:47 <vladgiurgiu> and I had some problems with partitioning and I think I added to another partition after formating
1583 2012-09-28 19:55:04 <helo> :/
1584 2012-09-28 19:55:12 <kjj_> does the bitcoin client ask you for your wallet passphrase when you try to send bitcoins?
1585 2012-09-28 19:55:17 <vladgiurgiu> yes
1586 2012-09-28 19:55:36 <ajf_me> hooray for sanity
1587 2012-09-28 19:55:49 <sipa> ajf_me: sanity?
1588 2012-09-28 19:56:05 <ajf_me> yes
1589 2012-09-28 19:56:13 <ajf_me> it wouldn't make sense if it didn't ;)
1590 2012-09-28 19:56:22 <sipa> right
1591 2012-09-28 19:56:26 <phantomcircuit> kjj_, only on tuesdays
1592 2012-09-28 19:56:44 <gmaxwell> rdponticelli: yep. thats how it works.
1593 2012-09-28 19:56:47 <gmaxwell> er p.
1594 2012-09-28 19:56:49 <gmaxwell> kjj_:
1595 2012-09-28 19:56:59 <vladgiurgiu> so, does anyone have a clue what may be wrong?
1596 2012-09-28 19:57:10 <kjj_> I was trying to make sure his wallet was encrypted, and not just the volume storing it
1597 2012-09-28 19:57:48 <phantomcircuit> kjj_, ohh
1598 2012-09-28 19:57:55 <phantomcircuit> fair enough :)
1599 2012-09-28 19:58:44 <kjj_> I think you might be out of luck, sorry.  you could try running Joric's fork of pywallet to see if you can recover keys from the backup copy
1600 2012-09-28 19:58:58 <vladgiurgiu> what is that?
1601 2012-09-28 19:59:16 <kjj_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34028.120
1602 2012-09-28 19:59:46 <vladgiurgiu> it dumps wallet to text?
1603 2012-09-28 19:59:48 <kjj_> jackjack wrote a python program to extract keys from wallet.dat files.  Joric added encryption support, I think
1604 2012-09-28 20:00:08 <Joric> kjj_, reverse order
1605 2012-09-28 20:00:15 <kjj_> oh, heh.  ok
1606 2012-09-28 20:00:20 <Joric> kjj_, jackjack forked pywallet at 1.1
1607 2012-09-28 20:00:25 <kjj_> been a while, sorry
1608 2012-09-28 20:00:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1609 2012-09-28 20:00:51 <vladgiurgiu> so that should I actually do?
1610 2012-09-28 20:01:50 <kjj_> get pywallet, run it against the backup copy of your wallet.dat.  it should give you a bunch of keys
1611 2012-09-28 20:02:13 <kjj_> then you import them into your running bitcoin client.  most of them it will already have, but hopefully one of them will be the missing one
1612 2012-09-28 20:02:14 <vladgiurgiu> how do I get pywallet?
1613 2012-09-28 20:02:24 <kjj_> read that thread I linked
1614 2012-09-28 20:02:44 <kjj_> it is quite a long shot, but at this point, it seems like the only chance
1615 2012-09-28 20:03:19 <Joric> gavin should really add aes decryption to bitcointools i'm way too busy for a pull request
1616 2012-09-28 20:04:44 <kjj_> Joric: which repo has the "best" version of pywallet?  yours or jackjacks?
1617 2012-09-28 20:04:54 lggr has joined
1618 2012-09-28 20:05:06 <Joric> mine ofc
1619 2012-09-28 20:05:36 <Joric> https://github.com/joric/pywallet no deps, jackjack's fork needs a shitload of libs
1620 2012-09-28 20:05:48 <sipa> "Hey Satan, should I join Hell or Heaven?"
1621 2012-09-28 20:07:15 <Diablo-D3> Heaven, clearly.
1622 2012-09-28 20:07:20 <kjj_> oh, cool.  you've got a python MSI installer right in the readme too
1623 2012-09-28 20:08:06 agricocb has joined
1624 2012-09-28 20:09:25 <kjj_> LOL.  Hazek on the forums.  "People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded."
1625 2012-09-28 20:09:39 Evilmax has joined
1626 2012-09-28 20:09:47 <sipa> i don't think he's stupid
1627 2012-09-28 20:10:10 <kjj_> I don't either, but something about that thread chopped his IQ in half
1628 2012-09-28 20:11:30 dvide has joined
1629 2012-09-28 20:11:40 <gmaxwell> kjj_: link?
1630 2012-09-28 20:11:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1631 2012-09-28 20:11:54 <kjj_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113400.msg1229180#msg1229180
1632 2012-09-28 20:12:11 <gmaxwell> kjj_: you've got to be fairly smart to find your way onto the forums; so it's always interesting to see people being daft.
1633 2012-09-28 20:13:14 <gmaxwell> oh.. that thread.
1634 2012-09-28 20:13:31 <gmaxwell> well hey, as an alternative there is the atlas started one (how'd he get unbanned?)
1635 2012-09-28 20:13:44 <[Tycho]> daft is the one dreaming of a smoking lounge ?
1636 2012-09-28 20:13:52 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: give me all of your asics.
1637 2012-09-28 20:14:00 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: what for ?
1638 2012-09-28 20:14:41 <Diablo-D3> have to fight the swiss
1639 2012-09-28 20:14:53 <[Tycho]> Go buy all of my bonds then.
1640 2012-09-28 20:14:54 <Diablo-D3> Im going to need a pair of bagpipes too
1641 2012-09-28 20:15:05 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: gah, you're not being stupid too are you?
1642 2012-09-28 20:15:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: when is Diablo-D3 not?
1643 2012-09-28 20:16:03 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I thought it was obvious I was being funny when I said bagpipes
1644 2012-09-28 20:16:51 lggr has joined
1645 2012-09-28 20:18:19 <Evilmax> in week end the price always goes down?
1646 2012-09-28 20:18:31 <kjj_> yup.  except when it goes up
1647 2012-09-28 20:18:41 <Evilmax> ;)
1648 2012-09-28 20:19:47 ajf_me has left ()
1649 2012-09-28 20:20:37 <[Tycho]> ASICs are cool.
1650 2012-09-28 20:20:45 <[Tycho]> Well, hot too.
1651 2012-09-28 20:20:58 <sipa> not when properly cooled :p
1652 2012-09-28 20:21:11 OneFixt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1653 2012-09-28 20:21:16 <sipa> or turned off
1654 2012-09-28 20:21:40 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: you're making a 3U box right?
1655 2012-09-28 20:22:27 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: yes, but latest changes may turn it into 2U if I'll drop the idea of allowing ATX PSU.
1656 2012-09-28 20:22:59 <Diablo-D3> ATX psu isnt needed if its truly enterprise hardware
1657 2012-09-28 20:23:04 <Diablo-D3> plus you CAN get redundant 2U PSUs.
1658 2012-09-28 20:23:15 <Diablo-D3> and 2U psus are commodity hardware anyhow
1659 2012-09-28 20:23:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1660 2012-09-28 20:23:33 <kjj_> brb
1661 2012-09-28 20:23:36 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: how much power is it using?
1662 2012-09-28 20:23:44 <[Tycho]> Actually ATX PSU does fits 2U if the fan is on the back, not big side
1663 2012-09-28 20:24:12 toffoo has joined
1664 2012-09-28 20:24:14 <Diablo-D3> enterprise psus are always AT 80mm fan position, not new age fucktard 120mm fan bullshit
1665 2012-09-28 20:24:19 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: RM's backplane allows changing the number of worker boards, so it can be different.
1666 2012-09-28 20:24:24 <Diablo-D3> so you might have trouble fitting it weird
1667 2012-09-28 20:24:33 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: that doesnt answer my question.
1668 2012-09-28 20:25:08 OneFixt has joined
1669 2012-09-28 20:26:04 <[Tycho]> As we only have simulation results yet, this amount can change almost by 300%, so I would like to announce power dissipation after getting the test batch.
1670 2012-09-28 20:26:12 <Diablo-D3> meh.
1671 2012-09-28 20:26:22 <Diablo-D3> whats the maximum target then, half a 20a 120v?
1672 2012-09-28 20:26:27 <sipa> sounds like lousy simulation
1673 2012-09-28 20:26:37 <Diablo-D3> sipa: thats the problem with simulations
1674 2012-09-28 20:26:40 <Diablo-D3> they ALL suck
1675 2012-09-28 20:27:33 <[Tycho]> AFAIK, all other BTC ASIC vendors don't publish theirs too.
1676 2012-09-28 20:27:33 <[Tycho]> Of course it's expected to be much more effective against current FPGAs.
1677 2012-09-28 20:27:49 <[Tycho]> Also it depends on the actual quality of chips.
1678 2012-09-28 20:27:52 ZenInTexas has joined
1679 2012-09-28 20:27:58 <sipa> [Tycho]: you're building ASICs?
1680 2012-09-28 20:28:10 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: much less than that.
1681 2012-09-28 20:28:14 <[Tycho]> sipa: surprise !
1682 2012-09-28 20:28:21 <Diablo-D3> 1/3rd? 1/4th?
1683 2012-09-28 20:28:28 <[Tycho]> Yes. Everyone does.
1684 2012-09-28 20:28:32 <sipa> i mean - as opposed to packaging asics created by others
1685 2012-09-28 20:28:43 lggr has joined
1686 2012-09-28 20:28:46 <Diablo-D3> because if its only 600w, why bother
1687 2012-09-28 20:28:48 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: is that 20a value of some significance ?
1688 2012-09-28 20:28:55 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: wtf man
1689 2012-09-28 20:29:01 <[Tycho]> Yes, it's expected to be less than 600w.
1690 2012-09-28 20:29:03 <Diablo-D3> amps * volts = watts
1691 2012-09-28 20:29:20 <kjj_> funny story...  one year at Defcon, this guy was droning on about how his firewall had an ASIC in it.  I leaned over and told the guy next to me, "He has an ASIC, so does the Furby."  The next day, I heard people talking about the firewall built with a Furby CPU
1692 2012-09-28 20:29:24 <[Tycho]> You said "half a 20a" instead of "10a", that's why I'm asking.
1693 2012-09-28 20:29:46 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: 20a 120v is a datacenter standard
1694 2012-09-28 20:30:04 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: depends on country, I guess.
1695 2012-09-28 20:30:10 <Diablo-D3> oh, you're not in the US are you
1696 2012-09-28 20:30:19 <[Tycho]> Exactly.
1697 2012-09-28 20:30:26 <[Tycho]> I'm living in 220V-worlds.
1698 2012-09-28 20:30:34 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what they use over there
1699 2012-09-28 20:30:41 <Diablo-D3> I doubt its 230v 30a or whatever comes out of your wall
1700 2012-09-28 20:30:58 <Diablo-D3> probably much higher amp
1701 2012-09-28 20:31:09 <[Tycho]> Usually the total power dissipation is limited per rack
1702 2012-09-28 20:31:22 <Diablo-D3> Im aware of that
1703 2012-09-28 20:31:39 <kjj_> 230/30 is a LOT of power
1704 2012-09-28 20:31:43 <Diablo-D3> why do you think DMC wants to build a dc focusing on high density computing?
1705 2012-09-28 20:31:51 <[Tycho]> 230/30 is not used.
1706 2012-09-28 20:31:59 <Diablo-D3> kjj_: not if your limit is 25kw per rack
1707 2012-09-28 20:32:49 <[Tycho]> Standard "computer" plug is only rated for 10A and most "stock" PSUs use that.
1708 2012-09-28 20:33:35 <[Tycho]> (I'm aware that there are other ones)
1709 2012-09-28 20:33:49 <Diablo-D3> yeah, theres lots of funky shit
1710 2012-09-28 20:34:06 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: how less than 600w though?
1711 2012-09-28 20:34:07 <[Tycho]> I have a different one on my UPS, for example.
1712 2012-09-28 20:34:13 <Diablo-D3> you have to have a maximum wattage in mind
1713 2012-09-28 20:34:51 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: RE "I thought he was banned"  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113735.msg1229385#msg1229385
1714 2012-09-28 20:34:52 ZenInTexas has left ()
1715 2012-09-28 20:34:54 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: I can't say the exact numbers before testing an actual chip. Otherwise people will point fingers at me and tell that I'm like BFL.
1716 2012-09-28 20:35:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but you just said you can add and remove boards on the backplane to meet your target
1717 2012-09-28 20:35:15 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1718 2012-09-28 20:35:42 <[Tycho]> Yes.
1719 2012-09-28 20:35:54 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: and if its less than like 400 watts, I dont see the point of building a 2U box
1720 2012-09-28 20:36:06 <kjj_> dude.  the title says [CONFIRMED].  the internet doesn't just let any crackpot type that
1721 2012-09-28 20:36:36 <[Tycho]> My initial idea was to allow ATX PSU usage so users will be able to insert more worker boards and replace the PSU. But now PSU upgrade won't be required anymore.
1722 2012-09-28 20:37:00 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: rackmountable equipment is very convenient comparing to just plain boxes.
1723 2012-09-28 20:37:19 lggr has joined
1724 2012-09-28 20:37:32 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but if that 2U is $2800 and only uses 400 watts, I just dont get it
1725 2012-09-28 20:37:34 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, kjj_: grrr.  that link was to a post apparently deleted by its author.  it was a reference to a ~Sept 10 2012 message about Atlas's return to the forums.
1726 2012-09-28 20:37:48 <[Tycho]> What's wrong with 2U ?
1727 2012-09-28 20:37:53 <Diablo-D3> nothing
1728 2012-09-28 20:37:59 <Diablo-D3> its the price and power usage thats the problem
1729 2012-09-28 20:38:33 <[Tycho]> Well, I can arrange a special order for you that will consume 2Kw and double as a room-heater.
1730 2012-09-28 20:38:47 <Diablo-D3> lol
1731 2012-09-28 20:39:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: oh.. I was confused...
1732 2012-09-28 20:39:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, kjj_: OK, here is the original link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=15672.msg1177521#msg1177521
1733 2012-09-28 20:40:19 <vladgiurgiu> if I have the private key from a wallet can I get all the adresses associated with that key?
1734 2012-09-28 20:40:37 <kjj_> there is only one address associated with a private key
1735 2012-09-28 20:41:04 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: or may be I don't get what you are trying to say. I won't make it 1U because worker boards can't be that thin and because big racks will contain much more case metal instead of actual hardware.
1736 2012-09-28 20:41:05 <vladgiurgiu> and in that dumpfile where is the private key?
1737 2012-09-28 20:41:15 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1738 2012-09-28 20:41:20 <kjj_> jgarzik: I'm tempted to start copying acoindr's "I'm going to keep posting" post, but ask why wookies come from Endor
1739 2012-09-28 20:41:30 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: Im saying if its only using 400w, theres probably a lot of wasted space in the box
1740 2012-09-28 20:42:08 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: what is normal "watts per cm3 of space" then ?
1741 2012-09-28 20:42:14 <jgarzik> heh
1742 2012-09-28 20:42:23 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: there isnt one
1743 2012-09-28 20:42:34 <Diablo-D3> but we're talking about high density compute here, and 400w just seems too damned low
1744 2012-09-28 20:42:49 <[Tycho]> The box won't be empty, for sure.
1745 2012-09-28 20:42:57 <Diablo-D3> and yes, dont make a 1U
1746 2012-09-28 20:43:01 <Diablo-D3> they're just too cramped to work in
1747 2012-09-28 20:43:05 <Diablo-D3> and cooling always sucks
1748 2012-09-28 20:43:29 <Diablo-D3> infact, this is why I was interested in 4U mining rigs
1749 2012-09-28 20:43:30 <[Tycho]> But I would like to keep it compatible with 600x600 racks.
1750 2012-09-28 20:43:38 <vladgiurgiu> where is that private key in the dumfile.txt?
1751 2012-09-28 20:43:50 <[Tycho]> 4U is way too much. Don't see why 3U isn't enough.
1752 2012-09-28 20:43:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1753 2012-09-28 20:44:08 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: 4U lets you use 120mm fans
1754 2012-09-28 20:44:41 <_sense> Ya, definitely go with 4U so you can use 120mm intake and exhaust
1755 2012-09-28 20:44:44 <[Tycho]> Cooling will be normal front-to-back flow.
1756 2012-09-28 20:44:54 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: every line that starts with "Privkey: "
1757 2012-09-28 20:44:55 <_sense> Correct, in take 120mm on the front
1758 2012-09-28 20:44:56 <Diablo-D3> yes, but 120mm lets you have more CFM per U
1759 2012-09-28 20:44:58 <_sense> exhaust 120mm on the back
1760 2012-09-28 20:45:04 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: with the corresponding address above it
1761 2012-09-28 20:45:07 <[Tycho]> 120 mm fans are useful for home installation where silence is required.
1762 2012-09-28 20:45:22 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: not at all
1763 2012-09-28 20:45:32 <vladgiurgiu> i don't have any Privkey:
1764 2012-09-28 20:45:35 <[Tycho]> So you think they are more durable ?
1765 2012-09-28 20:45:38 <Diablo-D3> high density compute in the enterprise has been using 120mm a lot
1766 2012-09-28 20:45:45 <Diablo-D3> yes, they're more durable too due to lower rpm
1767 2012-09-28 20:45:56 <kjj_> sipa: this is the --dumpwallet output from pywallet.py
1768 2012-09-28 20:45:59 lggr has joined
1769 2012-09-28 20:46:38 <[Tycho]> No, sorry, but 4U is not possible except for a special order.
1770 2012-09-28 20:46:57 <sipa> kjj_: you probably know better than me, carry on :)
1771 2012-09-28 20:47:10 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: so why bother making rackmount boxes at all if you're not going to use them to their fullest?
1772 2012-09-28 20:47:15 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1773 2012-09-28 20:47:29 <[Tycho]> May be it will be like two 2U backplane-systems in one 4U enclosure for special order.
1774 2012-09-28 20:47:54 <kjj_> oh shit, I haven't used it myself in like a year.  I don't remember the output being in JSON.
1775 2012-09-28 20:48:02 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: because rackmount boxes are better than "plain" boxes.
1776 2012-09-28 20:48:44 <Joric> i'd import that json into blockchain.info and send it to another address
1777 2012-09-28 20:48:53 <[Tycho]> Well, because you can mount them in a rack :)
1778 2012-09-28 20:49:14 <kjj_> Joric: the address he is looking for isn't in the output, and he's not sure if the private keys are either
1779 2012-09-28 20:49:35 <vladgiurgiu> I imported it
1780 2012-09-28 20:49:37 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: btw, whats the price of those bonds in btc?
1781 2012-09-28 20:49:50 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: currently one bond is traded for 6.5 BTC
1782 2012-09-28 20:49:55 <Diablo-D3> jesus
1783 2012-09-28 20:50:02 <vladgiurgiu> Joric I did but I don't see the 4.5 BTC I lost
1784 2012-09-28 20:50:20 <[Tycho]> Surprised ? It conforms with the USD price published.
1785 2012-09-28 20:51:01 <Joric> im out of ideas maybe it got corrupted right at this address
1786 2012-09-28 20:51:11 <Diablo-D3> I'd need 520 BTC to buy one of those RM rigs
1787 2012-09-28 20:51:38 <[Tycho]> 227.5 BTC, actually
1788 2012-09-28 20:51:46 <[Tycho]> 35x6.5
1789 2012-09-28 20:51:46 <vladgiurgiu> and I can't recover the privkey for this adress? 13mSXtkyxuNnjyAsSS12X9wHLaph4HmPSW
1790 2012-09-28 20:51:59 <_sense> Are your asics actually shipping or just some weird bond pay out thing?
1791 2012-09-28 20:52:16 <_sense> I didnt understand that when I was reading the post
1792 2012-09-28 20:52:17 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: erm, I thought that thread said 4 bonds for a 4 ghs box, and the RM is 80 ghs so...
1793 2012-09-28 20:52:17 <[Tycho]> _sense: yes, shipping. When produced.
1794 2012-09-28 20:52:21 <sipa> _sense: no asic exists yet
1795 2012-09-28 20:52:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1796 2012-09-28 20:52:37 <midnightmagic> well..  no asic has been publically demonstrated yet.
1797 2012-09-28 20:52:42 <sipa> right, that
1798 2012-09-28 20:52:48 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: yes, 4 bonds for 4 GH/s bonds. Because one bond equals to 80 USD of listed price.
1799 2012-09-28 20:53:22 <[Tycho]> I can believe in ArtForz 350 nm sASICs, but they weren't demonstrated too.
1800 2012-09-28 20:53:42 <Diablo-D3> whatever happened to artforz
1801 2012-09-28 20:53:54 <kjj_> he got sick of the forums too
1802 2012-09-28 20:54:07 <sipa> 22:47:09 [freenode] -!-  idle     : 0 days 23 hours 14 mins 4 secs [signon: Tue Sep 25 10:28:37 2012]
1803 2012-09-28 20:54:55 <midnightmagic> [Tycho]: That's not actually true. He had pictures, and wallets linked to him, and they matched up with what he was describing. That's about as public a demonstration as it gets without actually putting one in your hands.
1804 2012-09-28 20:55:10 <Diablo-D3> he wasnt selling his, though
1805 2012-09-28 20:55:19 <jgarzik> he sold a bit
1806 2012-09-28 20:55:22 <midnightmagic> ArtForz didn't get sick of the forums. He signed an NDA which forbade him from talking about.. who knows.. and to prevent risk of violating that, he went away for a while.
1807 2012-09-28 20:55:26 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: really? damn him
1808 2012-09-28 20:55:32 <Diablo-D3> I told him I'd buy some if he ever decided to sell them
1809 2012-09-28 20:55:38 <jgarzik> I bought some from ArtForz in the early day....  on bitcoinmarket, IIRC
1810 2012-09-28 20:55:43 <jgarzik> *days
1811 2012-09-28 20:55:48 <midnightmagic> And then he said he was spending too much time on IRC and not getting anything dne, so he was going to go away for a while.
1812 2012-09-28 20:56:07 <kjj_> midnightmagic: yeah, but the crazies get all frothy when you say things like that
1813 2012-09-28 20:56:32 <jgarzik> ArtForz certainly contributed a lot of brain cycles (as well as hash cycles) to bitcoin
1814 2012-09-28 20:56:33 <midnightmagic> kjj_: He never actually lied to me, and everything he ever said that I read was nearly 100% self-consistent.
1815 2012-09-28 20:56:52 <jgarzik> he spotted several problems that Satoshi had to fix rather quickly
1816 2012-09-28 20:56:56 <midnightmagic> kjj_: Therefore, let the crazies get frothy. They can go fsck themselves.
1817 2012-09-28 20:57:01 <Diablo-D3> yeah, artforz was cool
1818 2012-09-28 20:57:06 <kjj_> midnightmagic: heh
1819 2012-09-28 20:57:50 lggr has joined
1820 2012-09-28 20:57:58 <Diablo-D3> nefario is probably going to go apeshit if I get an icbit account
1821 2012-09-28 20:58:07 <Diablo-D3> but who cares
1822 2012-09-28 20:58:21 <[Tycho]> Yes, last winter I asked him to sell his ASIC design, but he told me about that NDA thing.
1823 2012-09-28 20:58:46 <[Tycho]> Does Nefario cares about you ?
1824 2012-09-28 20:58:49 <midnightmagic> I think being king of the hill is tiresome. If there were hardcore crypto math nerds or engineers that were better than he was spending time in here, probably Art would still be here.
1825 2012-09-28 20:58:54 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: you missed the drama?
1826 2012-09-28 20:59:05 <[Tycho]> I noticed the drama about Nefario and Goat.
1827 2012-09-28 20:59:20 <Diablo-D3> he locked my account and accused me of stealing from DMC
1828 2012-09-28 20:59:28 <[Tycho]> Stealing ? How ?
1829 2012-09-28 20:59:33 <Diablo-D3> he wouldnt say
1830 2012-09-28 20:59:46 <Diablo-D3> he ended up unlocking it after he refused to answer any questions from anyone
1831 2012-09-28 20:59:54 <midnightmagic> Stealing value of the stock away..
1832 2012-09-28 21:00:18 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: which is a meaningless statement
1833 2012-09-28 21:00:27 <[Tycho]> Sadly ICBIT.se doesn't offers stock trading yet, otherwise Nefario actions would be good for us.
1834 2012-09-28 21:00:30 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: Yeah but don't say he wouldn't say anything. :)
1835 2012-09-28 21:00:55 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: if I buy these bonds, can I sell them or send them to someone else?
1836 2012-09-28 21:01:08 <[Tycho]> Yes, anyone can sell them.
1837 2012-09-28 21:01:16 <[Tycho]> (no fee)
1838 2012-09-28 21:01:25 <[Tycho]> Free giving is not implemented yet.
1839 2012-09-28 21:01:42 <Joric> good old vaporware
1840 2012-09-28 21:02:02 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: so you rise millions of USD yet ?
1841 2012-09-28 21:02:14 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: nope
1842 2012-09-28 21:02:43 <[Tycho]> Tens of thousands ?
1843 2012-09-28 21:03:05 <Diablo-D3> something like that
1844 2012-09-28 21:04:07 <[Tycho]> Not so good for building a DC.
1845 2012-09-28 21:04:15 <[Tycho]> But you can rent something.
1846 2012-09-28 21:04:20 <Diablo-D3> I dont think the community can afford it.
1847 2012-09-28 21:04:24 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1848 2012-09-28 21:04:24 <Diablo-D3> renting something makes no sense
1849 2012-09-28 21:04:27 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1850 2012-09-28 21:04:48 <[Tycho]> Which community ?
1851 2012-09-28 21:05:27 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin.
1852 2012-09-28 21:05:46 <[Tycho]> We should do something.
1853 2012-09-28 21:05:49 <[Tycho]> then
1854 2012-09-28 21:06:28 <[Tycho]> At least ngzhang managed to rise $400k in just one day.
1855 2012-09-28 21:07:26 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I have no clue how he did that
1856 2012-09-28 21:07:32 <_sense> why would you want to build a bitcoin DC?
1857 2012-09-28 21:07:35 <Diablo-D3> I mean its like, I come up with a great plan, everyone trolls and attacks
1858 2012-09-28 21:07:40 <Diablo-D3> _sense: its not for bitcoin
1859 2012-09-28 21:07:50 <Diablo-D3> although we'd gladly do business IN bitcoin
1860 2012-09-28 21:08:03 <[Tycho]> Recently we implemented Gold and Oil futures nominated in BTC, let's see if people will be interested in that. Playing with securities is fun.
1861 2012-09-28 21:08:05 <_sense> What are you doing?
1862 2012-09-28 21:08:17 <Diablo-D3> _sense: just a DC for high density computing
1863 2012-09-28 21:08:20 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: because people believe him, I suppose.
1864 2012-09-28 21:08:30 xisalty has joined
1865 2012-09-28 21:08:31 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: yeah but what did he do that I didnt already?
1866 2012-09-28 21:08:46 <[Tycho]> Shipped a good product in time and in specs.
1867 2012-09-28 21:08:51 <Diablo-D3> I was here before him, Im well known in the foss community, I wrote important bitcoin software
1868 2012-09-28 21:08:57 <Diablo-D3> all he did was slap an fpga on a board
1869 2012-09-28 21:09:11 <gjs278> somebody sell me asics or fpgas or whatever the hell I plug into the wall and come back to money later
1870 2012-09-28 21:09:33 lggr has joined
1871 2012-09-28 21:09:34 <[Tycho]> Also he doesn't tells people that they are idiots. Sometimes this helps.
1872 2012-09-28 21:09:48 <_sense> So you'd just rent stuff for people to mine on?
1873 2012-09-28 21:09:52 <sipa> haha :D
1874 2012-09-28 21:09:53 <_sense> Or provide colocation, or what?
1875 2012-09-28 21:10:04 <Diablo-D3> _sense: do you understand what a DC is?
1876 2012-09-28 21:10:12 <[Tycho]> Direct Current !
1877 2012-09-28 21:10:17 <_sense> Ya I've got a couple 42U racks
1878 2012-09-28 21:10:19 <[Tycho]> Or something like this.
1879 2012-09-28 21:10:24 <gjs278> well first he would take the money, then in true bitcoin fashion, get "hacked" and move to the bahamas
1880 2012-09-28 21:10:25 <Diablo-D3> _sense: you rent those from someone.
1881 2012-09-28 21:10:30 <sipa> district of columbia?
1882 2012-09-28 21:10:36 * [Tycho] has some 42U racks in my kitchen.
1883 2012-09-28 21:10:38 <_sense> I just wasnt sure what would make you special
1884 2012-09-28 21:10:53 <Diablo-D3> _sense: you cant put 25kw worth of gear in your racks.
1885 2012-09-28 21:11:02 <vladgiurgiu> how do I export private keys from wallet.dat?
1886 2012-09-28 21:11:13 <[Tycho]> vladgiurgiu: "dumpprivkey"
1887 2012-09-28 21:11:15 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: bitcoind dumpprivkey <address>
1888 2012-09-28 21:12:35 <vladgiurgiu> thanks a lot
1889 2012-09-28 21:13:13 <_sense> I don't know, I just can't see it.
1890 2012-09-28 21:13:20 <_sense> Rack space is so cheap you really dont need high density
1891 2012-09-28 21:13:31 <vladgiurgiu> maybe I can find the priv key
1892 2012-09-28 21:13:39 <Diablo-D3> _sense: it doesnt really work that way
1893 2012-09-28 21:13:41 <gjs278> rack space is even cheaper when you don't have to buy an entire rack because you were so dense
1894 2012-09-28 21:13:50 <Diablo-D3> yeah what gjs278 said
1895 2012-09-28 21:13:55 <_sense> I can get racks in 3rd world countries at 500$ a pop minus bandwidth and power. So heat distribution isnt really a problem.
1896 2012-09-28 21:13:56 <Diablo-D3> and computing gets cheaper too, the actual hardware you buy
1897 2012-09-28 21:14:03 <Diablo-D3> _sense: ...
1898 2012-09-28 21:14:21 <vladgiurgiu> sipa did you see what my problem is?
1899 2012-09-28 21:14:50 <vladgiurgiu> do you think I could find the privkey from that adress out of this wallet?
1900 2012-09-28 21:14:55 <[Tycho]> vladgiurgiu: have you tried --rescan ?
1901 2012-09-28 21:15:11 <vladgiurgiu> yes
1902 2012-09-28 21:15:23 <[Tycho]> If you did and it didn't helped then exporting the key won't work too.
1903 2012-09-28 21:15:26 theorb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1904 2012-09-28 21:15:31 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: you know what I find funny?
1905 2012-09-28 21:15:40 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: people ?
1906 2012-09-28 21:15:43 <Diablo-D3> bfl is still claiming they can make a 1th rig
1907 2012-09-28 21:15:54 <vladgiurgiu> how do I open bitcoind?
1908 2012-09-28 21:15:59 <vladgiurgiu> it shuts down
1909 2012-09-28 21:16:01 <[Tycho]> vladgiurgiu: because if you had the key then rescan would help.
1910 2012-09-28 21:16:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1911 2012-09-28 21:16:17 <[Tycho]> So your database is broken ?
1912 2012-09-28 21:16:26 <[Tycho]> Do you have a backup ?
1913 2012-09-28 21:16:35 <vladgiurgiu> I don't actually know what the problem is
1914 2012-09-28 21:16:45 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: why not. At least it should be less than 42U high.
1915 2012-09-28 21:16:48 <gjs278> how many gh does something like $3000 buy you on one of these specialized rigs
1916 2012-09-28 21:16:54 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: lolololol
1917 2012-09-28 21:16:56 <vladgiurgiu> I lost an adress worth of 4.5 BTC from my wallet and can't get it back
1918 2012-09-28 21:17:00 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: not enough.
1919 2012-09-28 21:17:05 <[Tycho]> gjs278: 80 GH/s
1920 2012-09-28 21:17:14 <[Tycho]> Well, 90, may be.
1921 2012-09-28 21:17:16 <Diablo-D3> and asicminer hasnt announced their rig sizes
1922 2012-09-28 21:17:32 <[Tycho]> Asicminer is going for 130 nm ?
1923 2012-09-28 21:17:37 <Diablo-D3> yeah
1924 2012-09-28 21:17:37 <helo> nobody knows
1925 2012-09-28 21:17:46 <[Tycho]> Asicminer is friedcat ?
1926 2012-09-28 21:17:49 <Diablo-D3> yeah
1927 2012-09-28 21:17:52 <helo> oh, asicminer...
1928 2012-09-28 21:17:54 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: if you already tried recovering using pywallet, the key will not magically appear just because you ask the program nicely
1929 2012-09-28 21:18:01 <[Tycho]> They announced 350 MH/s per chip, I suppose.
1930 2012-09-28 21:18:04 <Diablo-D3> 130nm on a tiny wafer size in china using spammed IP cores
1931 2012-09-28 21:18:10 theorb has joined
1932 2012-09-28 21:18:14 <Diablo-D3> quick and dirty and trying to beat BFL to market
1933 2012-09-28 21:18:37 <[Tycho]> Well, ngzhang will beat them if they aren't going to sell, just mine.
1934 2012-09-28 21:18:44 <vladgiurgiu> I did find everything from that dump, but I didn't get the privkeys for all the adresses
1935 2012-09-28 21:18:53 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: they will sell
1936 2012-09-28 21:18:55 <vladgiurgiu> acutally from no adress
1937 2012-09-28 21:18:57 osxorgate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1938 2012-09-28 21:19:00 <[Tycho]> Mining instead of selling is the way to changing the algorithm :)
1939 2012-09-28 21:19:01 <vladgiurgiu> which is strange
1940 2012-09-28 21:19:22 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: how do you mean? you did get it imported in blockchain.info, right?
1941 2012-09-28 21:19:34 <vladgiurgiu> yes
1942 2012-09-28 21:19:37 <sipa> but there was nothing to import?
1943 2012-09-28 21:19:49 <vladgiurgiu> and some of my adresses are Watch Only
1944 2012-09-28 21:20:17 <gjs278> ;;bc,calc 80000000
1945 2012-09-28 21:20:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2864140.507811 , is 1 day, 18 hours, 42 minutes, and 47 seconds
1946 2012-09-28 21:20:32 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
1947 2012-09-28 21:20:33 <gribble> 22077.353706151847
1948 2012-09-28 21:20:58 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1949 2012-09-28 21:21:03 lggr has joined
1950 2012-09-28 21:21:11 <gjs278> that doesn't seem like too bad of a rate unless I've gone horribly wrong with my path
1951 2012-09-28 21:21:13 <gjs278> math
1952 2012-09-28 21:21:18 <_sense> ;;bc,calc 4000000
1953 2012-09-28 21:21:19 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2864140.507811 , is 5 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes, and 47 seconds
1954 2012-09-28 21:21:23 BCBot2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1955 2012-09-28 21:21:41 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,calc 80000000
1956 2012-09-28 21:21:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2864140.507811 , is 1 day, 18 hours, 42 minutes, and 47 seconds
1957 2012-09-28 21:21:44 <Diablo-D3> yeah you did it right
1958 2012-09-28 21:21:58 <vladgiurgiu> sipa I see now that blockchain.info didn't import the privkeys for every adress
1959 2012-09-28 21:22:07 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: but it did for some?
1960 2012-09-28 21:22:14 <gjs278> so $600 every two days and then the super split
1961 2012-09-28 21:22:25 <vladgiurgiu> no
1962 2012-09-28 21:22:34 <vladgiurgiu> I had to do it manually for one
1963 2012-09-28 21:22:55 <[Tycho]> gjs278: don't forget about reward halving and difficulty correction.
1964 2012-09-28 21:22:59 <gjs278> yeah
1965 2012-09-28 21:23:02 <gjs278> thats the super split
1966 2012-09-28 21:23:26 <CluckCreek> I've been working on a secure, bitcoin-based, entirely p2p poker game. I now have a prototype working. The technically inclined can give it a shot: http://www.cluckcreek.net/poker.html
1967 2012-09-28 21:23:43 <CluckCreek> Please PM any questions or comments, I have to leave soon but I'll get to them.
1968 2012-09-28 21:24:08 <gjs278> well that and the actual ordering of these things looks like it takes forever too
1969 2012-09-28 21:24:19 <vladgiurgiu> how could that key and adress simply dissapear from the wallet.dat (given that I didn't corrupt it with the encription)
1970 2012-09-28 21:24:28 freakazoid has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1971 2012-09-28 21:24:42 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: only thing i can think of is that the key was generated after the backup
1972 2012-09-28 21:25:30 <vladgiurgiu> but how could this be?...I didn't have 100 adresses
1973 2012-09-28 21:26:09 <sipa> my guess is that you requested the address after encryption
1974 2012-09-28 21:26:46 xisalty has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1975 2012-09-28 21:26:53 <vladgiurgiu> it could be....
1976 2012-09-28 21:26:56 xisalty_ has joined
1977 2012-09-28 21:27:12 <vladgiurgiu> so I just got a 55$ bitcoin lesson...:D
1978 2012-09-28 21:27:25 justinleitgeb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1979 2012-09-28 21:27:26 <sipa> well, i think the client should warn you about this
1980 2012-09-28 21:27:48 <vladgiurgiu> i know
1981 2012-09-28 21:27:56 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1982 2012-09-28 21:27:59 <sipa> i'll file an issue
1983 2012-09-28 21:28:14 <vladgiurgiu> where?
1984 2012-09-28 21:28:35 <_sense> I lost a wallet too, dont feel bad
1985 2012-09-28 21:28:39 <vladgiurgiu> one more thing....why didn't blockchain.info import the dumpfile.txt correclty?
1986 2012-09-28 21:28:45 <_sense> deleted an old appdir directory without copying over my old wallet dat
1987 2012-09-28 21:28:47 <_sense> :(
1988 2012-09-28 21:28:55 <vladgiurgiu> :(
1989 2012-09-28 21:28:57 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
1990 2012-09-28 21:29:55 BCBot2 has joined
1991 2012-09-28 21:29:55 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: btw, friedcat is claiming 336w for 80gh
1992 2012-09-28 21:30:07 <vladgiurgiu> one more thing....why didn't blockchain.info import the dumpfile.txt correclty?
1993 2012-09-28 21:30:13 <[Tycho]> Seems about right for 130 nm.
1994 2012-09-28 21:30:26 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: file format differences, i suppose
1995 2012-09-28 21:30:27 <Diablo-D3> this is going to be weird
1996 2012-09-28 21:30:33 <Diablo-D3> if I buy a box from you, but hold asicminer stock
1997 2012-09-28 21:30:59 <vladgiurgiu> I just copied the text...no file uploaded
1998 2012-09-28 21:31:06 <[Tycho]> It's called "diversification".
1999 2012-09-28 21:31:08 <[Tycho]> May be.
2000 2012-09-28 21:31:21 <[Tycho]> Or something like this.
2001 2012-09-28 21:32:05 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: btw, who owns icbit?
2002 2012-09-28 21:32:07 <gjs278> wait so [Tycho] you are selling boxes as colo?
2003 2012-09-28 21:32:30 lggr has joined
2004 2012-09-28 21:32:53 <[Tycho]> gjs278: no, I'm just selling boxes.
2005 2012-09-28 21:32:58 <gjs278> oh
2006 2012-09-28 21:33:02 <[Tycho]> (pre-order stage atm)
2007 2012-09-28 21:33:18 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1884
2008 2012-09-28 21:33:25 <gjs278> link to your thread, I'm sure it ahs all of the info
2009 2012-09-28 21:34:23 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3: joint project of us.
2010 2012-09-28 21:34:57 <[Tycho]> "It's our project" sounds even better.
2011 2012-09-28 21:34:59 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: then live ticker support should be added to assbot for it
2012 2012-09-28 21:35:07 <[Tycho]> Which bot ?
2013 2012-09-28 21:35:11 <Diablo-D3> assbot
2014 2012-09-28 21:35:14 <Diablo-D3> its in #bitcoin-assets
2015 2012-09-28 21:35:22 <vladgiurgiu> sipa how do I participate to the issue?
2016 2012-09-28 21:35:25 <[Tycho]> Well, it can fetch the ticker.
2017 2012-09-28 21:35:34 <[Tycho]> That bot is yours ?
2018 2012-09-28 21:35:37 <Diablo-D3> no
2019 2012-09-28 21:35:39 <Diablo-D3> dunno who owns it
2020 2012-09-28 21:35:57 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: you can comment on it by reporting what you experienced
2021 2012-09-28 21:35:58 <[Tycho]> So let he asks me how to do it.
2022 2012-09-28 21:37:06 <sipa> vladgiurgiu: though at this point it doesn't matter too much anymore
2023 2012-09-28 21:37:23 * sipa -> bed
2024 2012-09-28 21:37:24 <vladgiurgiu> yes, but it may help others
2025 2012-09-28 21:37:52 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: kakobrekla owns it
2026 2012-09-28 21:38:01 BCBot has joined
2027 2012-09-28 21:38:02 <[Tycho]> Who is he ?
2028 2012-09-28 21:38:14 <[Tycho]> I see this nick for the first time.
2029 2012-09-28 21:38:16 <Diablo-D3> just some guy, you know?
2030 2012-09-28 21:39:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2031 2012-09-28 21:41:01 <fiesh> CluckCreek: I think it's very nice, but I think a genereal p2p fair gaming library would be a better step than to implement one game right away, also since the theory of fair distributed gaming isn't new
2032 2012-09-28 21:41:48 <fiesh> CluckCreek: it would not even have to be gaming, just fair shuffling of whatever form of randomness, payout etc.
2033 2012-09-28 21:42:03 <helo> if it isn't web-based, security concerns will probably keep anyone from actually running it
2034 2012-09-28 21:42:53 <helo> the client has to be open source, or the game should be web based (not that a p2p web-based game is a thing...)
2035 2012-09-28 21:43:03 <helo> ahh, it is
2036 2012-09-28 21:43:06 <fiesh> it seems to be open source
2037 2012-09-28 21:43:11 <fiesh> otherwise I agree would be pointless
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2040 2012-09-28 21:44:16 <fiesh> CluckCreek: you should put it on github or something similar, not host it like that ;)
2041 2012-09-28 21:44:39 <Eliel> this has the potential of making online casinos obsolete :)
2042 2012-09-28 21:45:46 <fiesh> I'm not sure... people might prefer trusting one entity of a fair payout -- here 4 players could collaborate, or just be the same person, and rob others
2043 2012-09-28 21:46:11 <Eliel> yes, there's still some problems left unsolved.
2044 2012-09-28 21:47:10 <Eliel> but the potential is there. This is just a prototype afterall
2045 2012-09-28 21:47:35 <fiesh> I agree, but the problem I described cannot be circumvented
2046 2012-09-28 21:50:23 <Eliel> yes, this particular way of doing it does have a tough to solve problem. But I wouldn't be so quick to write it off as unsolvable.
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2048 2012-09-28 21:53:25 <fiesh> it must, simply theoretically, always be a decision of the group what happens with the money, so you can never make it work if the majority cheats.  you could make it a 6of6 multisig, then a unanimous vote would be required and the person who is cheated can deny the others their money, but he will lose his too
2049 2012-09-28 21:53:27 <Eliel> at the very least, it'd open up a very competitive market for escrow services that are able to verify the game result and move the coins accordingly.
2050 2012-09-28 21:53:51 <fiesh> that would be an approach, but then again you need a 3rd trusted entity
2051 2012-09-28 21:54:09 <Eliel> yep, but the service they provide would be very different.
2052 2012-09-28 21:54:33 <fiesh> well, you need to pay them a fee then, and you're still at their mercy
2053 2012-09-28 21:54:34 <Eliel> most likely would become very cheap service.
2054 2012-09-28 21:55:00 <fiesh> really?  what prevents an escrow from just stealing the money, in particular given that everything runs fully anonymously
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2056 2012-09-28 21:56:11 <Eliel> nothing at all, directly. But games implemented in this manner allow players to provide irrefutable evidence of foul play, so well behaving escrows will accumulate reputation that will be tarnished if they steal.
2057 2012-09-28 21:57:49 <helo> if you let players select their own opponents, you'll have the collusion problem
2058 2012-09-28 21:58:42 <Eliel> that's just a matter of shuffling in a secure way. Exactly the problem this implementation claims to have solved.
2059 2012-09-28 21:58:51 <fiesh> helo: yeah but people probably want that, you might want to play people you know and so -- besides, is there a way around this?  if players are randomly assigned, somebody can just spawn so many they will meet
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2061 2012-09-28 21:59:36 <fiesh> well you have an advantage if you control two players, even if shuffled fairly, but that's a different issue..
2062 2012-09-28 22:00:06 <Eliel> well, that's no different from the current system I'd think.
2063 2012-09-28 22:00:11 <fiesh> Eliel: I agree that this is doable, but I don't think there is a demand for that kind of system in say poker -- there might be with other things though
2064 2012-09-28 22:00:27 <fiesh> Eliel: yes, that's the problem everywhere right now
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2083 2012-09-28 22:41:29 <denisx> Iam tempted to use libdispatch in bitcoind
2084 2012-09-28 22:41:49 <denisx> I think starting a new thread for every rpc call is very expensive
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2110 2012-09-28 23:27:57 <Eliel> fiesh: I thought about this p2p poker thing a bit more. I'm now convinced it can be made to work without third parties necessary.
2111 2012-09-28 23:29:29 <Eliel> fiesh: 2 main things. One, you can have a reputation system for individual players. Two, Bitcoin supports updateable transactions.
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2115 2012-09-28 23:34:07 <jrmithdobbs> Eliel: 10 minute shuffles? ya, um, no
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2119 2012-09-28 23:34:27 <Eliel> fiesh: basically, you would first create the 1 BTC transactions to a 6 of 6 address but before that transaction is signed and broadcast, you prepare an updateable transaction that sends each player their 1BTC back. Then, after each hand, the transaction is updated to match each player's earnings and signed by all players. If any player refuses, the last signed by all transaction is then broadcast to be included in the block.
2120 2012-09-28 23:34:33 <gmaxwell> Eliel: by 'supports' you mean not implemented.
2121 2012-09-28 23:34:39 <jrmithdobbs> also that
2122 2012-09-28 23:35:20 <Eliel> gmaxwell: there is blockchain level functionality missing for that?
2123 2012-09-28 23:35:31 <jrmithdobbs> Eliel: um, so anyone can block anyone else from ever getting paid
2124 2012-09-28 23:35:44 <jrmithdobbs> and just gen new identities for each game
2125 2012-09-28 23:35:49 <gmaxwell> Eliel: replacement doesn't involve the blockchain
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2128 2012-09-28 23:36:08 <Eliel> jrmithdobbs: no, the game doesn't start if everyone doesn't sign the initial transaction that returns the deposits to each player.
2129 2012-09-28 23:36:12 Joric_ has quit (Client Quit)
2130 2012-09-28 23:36:26 <fiesh> Eliel: it still does not entirely rule out cheating though, getting your money back is nowhere near a fair outcome
2131 2012-09-28 23:36:29 <jrmithdobbs> Eliel: yes but 1/6 assholes can make sure noone ever actually wins a hand
2132 2012-09-28 23:36:38 <gmaxwell> Eliel: but it does, of course, involve the network— and its not implemented because no one knows how to make it resist DOS.
2133 2012-09-28 23:37:07 <Eliel> fiesh: that's for the reputation system to handle.
2134 2012-09-28 23:37:08 <jrmithdobbs> Eliel: and how does that address the 3rd party required for a trusted shuffle?
2135 2012-09-28 23:37:08 lggr has joined
2136 2012-09-28 23:37:11 <fiesh> the only way to actually make this game 100% fool proof would be for the bitcoin client to recognize the outcome of the game and attribute the money to the actual winner
2137 2012-09-28 23:37:14 <gmaxwell> fiesh: you could do this with the help of oracles... but thats not zero trust.
2138 2012-09-28 23:38:23 <fiesh> Eliel: yes but it's just moving things to a different system -- having simply a 6of6 pool would be the same, no?  since people could always still agree to "everybody gets their money back"
2139 2012-09-28 23:38:30 <Eliel> jrmithdobbs: what third party?
2140 2012-09-28 23:38:34 <fiesh> Eliel: ok, yours has a built in money back guarantee
2141 2012-09-28 23:38:58 <jrmithdobbs> Eliel: that's what i'm asking you, how do you address having a fair shuffle?
2142 2012-09-28 23:39:04 <fiesh> if the bitcoin client read the cards dealt and verified the outcome of the game and attributed the money to the correct winner, that would be a system without any need for 3rd party
2143 2012-09-28 23:39:21 <Eliel> jrmithdobbs: that's what the system outlined here supposedly solves http://www.cluckcreek.net/poker.html
2144 2012-09-28 23:39:23 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: the client is now the third party...
2145 2012-09-28 23:39:31 <Eliel> jrmithdobbs: I have not checked if it does it properly
2146 2012-09-28 23:39:42 <Eliel> I'm just theorizing assuming it actually is possible.
2147 2012-09-28 23:39:44 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: well yes, but that always the case, that the whole pool of bitcoin users is the third party accepting your money or not
2148 2012-09-28 23:39:59 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: no, bitcoin is zero trust
2149 2012-09-28 23:40:07 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: the client is not. it can be easily modified.
2150 2012-09-28 23:40:13 <jrmithdobbs> (for this use)
2151 2012-09-28 23:40:36 <jrmithdobbs> s/not/not trustable/
2152 2012-09-28 23:40:40 <fiesh> what?
2153 2012-09-28 23:40:42 <Eliel> fiesh: anyway, this is just what I came up in one day without actually even planning to think about this :P
2154 2012-09-28 23:41:07 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: the bitcoin client is not trustable for this use. You've not proposed a way to prevent cheating just a way to make it take slightly more technical know-how
2155 2012-09-28 23:41:08 <fiesh> if your client locally verifies the outcome of the game and attributes the money to the actual winner, then this person actually gets the money -- granted that all bitcoin users do so
2156 2012-09-28 23:41:19 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: no, this is trustable
2157 2012-09-28 23:41:40 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: you're missing the part where the client is easily modified to skip the verification and always reject a winner.
2158 2012-09-28 23:41:48 <fiesh> Eliel: hehe ;)  the #1 problem is most likely the missing market for these things, people seem to trust 3rd party entities a lot, always
2159 2012-09-28 23:41:49 <jrmithdobbs> a winner besides yourself
2160 2012-09-28 23:42:00 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: what?
2161 2012-09-28 23:42:15 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: say all bitcoin clients have a poker verification system built in
2162 2012-09-28 23:42:24 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: any of the 6 players could modify their bitcoin client to not sign the 6of6 payout unless the winner is themselves
2163 2012-09-28 23:42:30 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: and the outcome of the poker is broadcast, verifiably correct, which can be done
2164 2012-09-28 23:42:49 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: then every player can, individually, evaluate who won and attribute the money to that address
2165 2012-09-28 23:43:03 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: just like clients now attribute money to certain addresses by other means, mining and transactions
2166 2012-09-28 23:43:11 <jrmithdobbs> or, sorry, more correctly, to always broadcast the updated txn that returns all the coins i meant, unless they are the winner
2167 2012-09-28 23:43:17 <Eliel> fiesh: it also allows provable audit trail for reputation system
2168 2012-09-28 23:43:19 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: there is no 6of6 any more
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2170 2012-09-28 23:44:15 <jrmithdobbs> it doesn't provide anything, you just made the binary the trusted third party, i'm not sure how to express this more clearly
2171 2012-09-28 23:44:22 <jrmithdobbs> the bitcoin binary
2172 2012-09-28 23:44:35 <fiesh> I do not understand your objection
2173 2012-09-28 23:45:37 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: you "solved" the problem by ignoring it
2174 2012-09-28 23:46:00 <Eliel> (I don't think there's really any point to having the bitcoin client support it that far. The system I outlined (perhaps with some polishing) ought to be good enough)
2175 2012-09-28 23:46:42 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: suppose we decided to bet 1BTC on the outcome of a coin flip, a coin flip somehow verifiable online, and every bitcoin client knew that, checked the outcome of the coin flip, and attributed the prize to the actual winner
2176 2012-09-28 23:46:56 <fiesh> jrmithdobbs: then there is no way for you or me to cheat
2177 2012-09-28 23:47:11 <jrmithdobbs> and how are they going to attribute it? you're going to broadcast the signing keys to the network?
2178 2012-09-28 23:47:30 <jrmithdobbs> because then anyone can steal it, doesn't even have to be a player.
2179 2012-09-28 23:48:16 <fiesh> we both make a transaction to a "virtual" address (this things don't exist yet of course, just talking about how one could implement them) of the for (coin flip: heads => my address, tails => your address)
2180 2012-09-28 23:48:23 <jrmithdobbs> you've still not addressed the trusted shuffle which is a requirement for the entire thing to work
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2182 2012-09-28 23:48:38 <fiesh> all these things can't be done right now of course, and I doubt anybody would ever implement them, but they are theoretically possible
2183 2012-09-28 23:48:52 <fiesh> trusted shuffles are fairly standard actually
2184 2012-09-28 23:49:01 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: you've not actually outlined what would be required, you've handwaved and ignored the problem, as I said
2185 2012-09-28 23:49:26 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: yes, with a semi-trustable third party it's pretty easy with a commitment/etc
2186 2012-09-28 23:49:30 <Eliel> gmaxwell: for this use-case, and all that I can think of, I don't think the bitcoin-network would need to actually broadcast the updateable transaction until it's either finalized or the lockin time is reached.
2187 2012-09-28 23:49:35 <jrmithdobbs> but he's saying zero trust
2188 2012-09-28 23:49:37 <fiesh> no without a third party
2189 2012-09-28 23:49:39 <jrmithdobbs> that isn't zero trust
2190 2012-09-28 23:49:50 <jrmithdobbs> fiesh: show me.
2191 2012-09-28 23:49:51 <fiesh> trusted shuffles between two people are no problem
2192 2012-09-28 23:50:38 <fiesh> ok, I come up with a secret, append it to the number 1 to 52, take their hashes, give them to you, you pick any two and tell me, I tell you the secret and we both know you randomly picked 2 cards
2193 2012-09-28 23:50:50 <jrmithdobbs> define secret
2194 2012-09-28 23:50:56 <fiesh> anything that I want, random
2195 2012-09-28 23:50:58 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2196 2012-09-28 23:51:01 <jrmithdobbs> of what size
2197 2012-09-28 23:51:03 <fiesh> one time use of course
2198 2012-09-28 23:51:10 <jgarzik> I am waiting for some to post on the forum,
2199 2012-09-28 23:51:14 <jgarzik> "Anarchists... unite!"
2200 2012-09-28 23:51:16 <fiesh> does not really matter
2201 2012-09-28 23:51:23 <fiesh> not too small of course or else you could guess it
2202 2012-09-28 23:51:32 <jrmithdobbs> it matters a lot
2203 2012-09-28 23:51:45 <fiesh> and why?
2204 2012-09-28 23:52:30 <jrmithdobbs> because if it's a 16bit secret, it's bruteforcable in the time of the guess, for instance
2205 2012-09-28 23:52:38 <fiesh> well thanks...
2206 2012-09-28 23:52:43 <Eliel> gmaxwell: all that'd be needed is that nodes are able to tell which version of the transaction is the latest and reject the earlier versions.
2207 2012-09-28 23:52:57 <jrmithdobbs> if it's 32bit it's brute forcable in the time of a guess with more resources
2208 2012-09-28 23:53:06 <fiesh> ok whatever
2209 2012-09-28 23:53:17 <jrmithdobbs> it's also possible that you pre-generated the secrets with a known collision
2210 2012-09-28 23:53:52 <fiesh> well a) there are no known collisions, b) how would that help me, c) this can of course be made better, this is the very simplest example
2211 2012-09-28 23:54:02 <fiesh> for sha256 for example
2212 2012-09-28 23:54:26 <jrmithdobbs> you didn't define your hash function so a isn't true, b you could pick amongst the best options for you winning, c i said show me
2213 2012-09-28 23:54:29 <Eliel> gmaxwell: of course, there's the possibility of flood if someone prepares a lot of them to be sent one after another but that's easily dealth with if you just drop nodes that send too many different versions in a short time period.
2214 2012-09-28 23:54:32 <fiesh> I would have to actually have a full collision for all the 52 cards, or however many you would like
2215 2012-09-28 23:54:51 <jrmithdobbs> no you wouldn't, you just need a collision that makes my hand not win
2216 2012-09-28 23:55:31 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2217 2012-09-28 23:55:38 <fiesh> I need to have a collision of the form that all string "1secret" ... "52secret" give the same hashes as "1collissionsecret" ... "52colissionsecret"
2218 2012-09-28 23:56:35 <fiesh> and since you just try to attack marginal details like I should not pick 16 bit secrets (thanks really) or that I did not explicitly specify the hash function (it's not the identity, guess what), I would rather not continue this discussion
2219 2012-09-28 23:57:07 <jrmithdobbs> i asked you to show me and you left out all the details
2220 2012-09-28 23:57:34 <jrmithdobbs> the details matter
2221 2012-09-28 23:58:06 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)