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2 2012-09-29 00:00:09 <jrmithdobbs> also, appending anything like that to a merkle-damgaard based hash function is asking for someone with more money than you to compromise the system
3 2012-09-29 00:00:26 <jrmithdobbs> s/to a/to be used with a/
4 2012-09-29 00:00:41 <arij> how many blocks until next difficulty?
5 2012-09-29 00:00:44 <arij> each time?
6 2012-09-29 00:00:53 <arij> what was it 2k?
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9 2012-09-29 00:02:15 <D34TH> wow it is a rare day, whats up arij
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16 2012-09-29 00:11:30 <arij> hey D34TH
17 2012-09-29 00:11:48 <D34TH> making that money?
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27 2012-09-29 00:32:10 <gmaxwell> Eliel: say to allow normal txn the network must accept N transactions from me (as it can't tell if I'm one person or many). (ignoring replacement) Now, for a single user for replacement to be useful replacment must be accepted at rate R.. I can now produce N*R load; which isn't good, since we'd like N to be as high as we can handle.
28 2012-09-29 00:32:29 <gmaxwell> Eliel: and yes for that usecase you can do it externally.
29 2012-09-29 00:32:40 <gmaxwell> Eliel: though you'll race at locktime potentially.
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31 2012-09-29 00:37:54 <Eliel> gmaxwell: I was trying to argue for a limited updateable transaction support that only broadcasts the updatable transaction to the network if it's either finalized or past it's locktime. In this case, a flooding attack is easily detectable from the continuous "updates" that seem to keep happening. For a legit transaction, the final version can reasonably be expected to be broadcast within a minute of the first appearance of any version.
32 2012-09-29 00:39:49 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it still lets you do some R* multiplication of the load you put on the network.
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35 2012-09-29 00:41:24 <Eliel> while an attacker might try to flood the network from many different IP addresses each broadcasting a different version, if regular nodes do a strict limit on how often they'll broadcast replacements, the whole network effect can be limited to N. No multiplications possible.
36 2012-09-29 00:42:04 <Eliel> umm, or is it R I should've said there.
37 2012-09-29 00:42:05 <Eliel> well, anyway.
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41 2012-09-29 00:45:15 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I'm still not following how you do that; but even ignoring that; then you just make replacements unreliable... e.g. I produce a bunch of dummy replacement traffic to implement bitcointorrent and now they don't work for anyone else.
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43 2012-09-29 00:46:18 <Eliel> gmaxwell: this would be per updateable tx of course. But let me give an example.
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45 2012-09-29 00:46:53 <gmaxwell> If it's per uptable tx then you have a factor of R inflation. If the network will take X transactions from me, I then do R replacements on each of the X.
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51 2012-09-29 00:54:55 <Eliel> hmm... I'm too tired to think straight to get a working example. perhaps this just doesn't work afterall. I'll try to sort it out tomorrow when I'm more awake :)
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90 2012-09-29 02:02:51 <jaxtr> what's going on with zurich
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95 2012-09-29 02:11:06 <gmaxwell> nothing.
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167 2012-09-29 04:32:43 <Impaler> Hey maaku
168 2012-09-29 04:35:36 <denisx> why is the number of transaction hashes in buildmerkletree not in sync with the poolsz?
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170 2012-09-29 04:38:59 <Impaler> Anyone else interested in discussing demurrage, I've got some new ideas on how to implement it
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194 2012-09-29 05:26:09 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #84: FAILURE in 5 hr 13 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/84/
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223 2012-09-29 06:17:30 <jgarzik> Stuck download report: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113613.0
224 2012-09-29 06:17:43 <jgarzik> "Around ~196700 or so, it stops downloading"
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250 2012-09-29 07:04:42 <kjj_> jgarzik: let this be a lesson to you. if you are going to feed the trolls, feed them shit
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276 2012-09-29 07:34:06 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: lol
277 2012-09-29 07:36:56 <kjj_> seems like such a simple thing, right?
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286 2012-09-29 07:53:37 <jgarzik> kjj_: a "bitcoin for technical people" introduction or boot camp would be nice
287 2012-09-29 07:54:00 <jgarzik> target: not programmers, but anyone who can grok the concept of crypto hashes and crypto keypairs
288 2012-09-29 07:54:38 <jgarzik> not necessarily what you were looking for, but that is one idea of mine
289 2012-09-29 07:55:05 <jgarzik> "bitcoin is a digitally timestamped notary service for small messages
290 2012-09-29 07:55:31 <jgarzik> and we will shoot you if you use it as simply a timestamped small messaging service"
291 2012-09-29 07:55:56 <jgarzik> "it's a currency, not IM"
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296 2012-09-29 08:06:04 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I almost wonder if the technical side should be given a different name, since it's so vastly different from the high-level view most users have
297 2012-09-29 08:06:27 <Luke-Jr> a lot of people starting to get into the technical side seem to have preconceptions that just don't work
298 2012-09-29 08:06:44 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: "under the hood, we use TonalCoin(tm) technology"
299 2012-09-29 08:06:58 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: aww, then we'd need to make it actually tonal-based ;)
300 2012-09-29 08:07:25 <Luke-Jr> which doesn't really make sense for low-level stuff anyway
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302 2012-09-29 08:08:11 <amiller> the word "mining" is pretty misleading
303 2012-09-29 08:08:14 <jgarzik> In an imaginary world where compat is no problem, I would redo all the RPC APIs to simply denominate in integer satoshis
304 2012-09-29 08:08:16 <jgarzik> amiller: agreed
305 2012-09-29 08:08:24 * jgarzik prefers "transaction verification"
306 2012-09-29 08:08:29 <amiller> i've run into a lot of people who really think that the winning block, the thing you obtain with your gpu, is itself the bitcoin
307 2012-09-29 08:08:52 <jgarzik> the block is the notary's seal
308 2012-09-29 08:09:35 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: actually, it might be a not-so-bad idea to plan for some version before 1.0 where we explicitly break RPC compat to fix everything that's inconsistent or stupid?
309 2012-09-29 08:10:30 <jgarzik> I dunno if there will ever be a point where we will be willing to break _everything_ simply for the sake of cleanliness
310 2012-09-29 08:10:40 <c_k> the word "notary" is missing from the average new zealanders vocabulary
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312 2012-09-29 08:10:45 <c_k> probably australian too
313 2012-09-29 08:10:52 <jgarzik> c_k: equivalent?
314 2012-09-29 08:11:23 <amiller> unfortunately a notary implies a particular set of behaviors too, like checking someone's ID card, and timestamping, but not necessarily validating a document in any other sense
315 2012-09-29 08:11:40 <c_k> well, we have "justices of the peace" aka JP's that do what notaries seem to do
316 2012-09-29 08:11:51 <amiller> sometimes i say it's a cross between an election and a lottery, which puts it in the class of (arguably) useful social institutions
317 2012-09-29 08:11:57 <jgarzik> a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notary will do ;p
318 2012-09-29 08:12:02 <c_k> A person authorized to perform certain legal formalities, esp. to draw up or certify documents.
319 2012-09-29 08:12:08 <jgarzik> though yes, calling it a "notary" is an imperfect analogy
320 2012-09-29 08:12:15 <c_k> ah
321 2012-09-29 08:12:18 <c_k> well in that case
322 2012-09-29 08:12:19 <jgarzik> as are all analogies
323 2012-09-29 08:12:22 <c_k> we call them lawyers
324 2012-09-29 08:12:25 lggr has joined
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326 2012-09-29 08:13:14 <maaku> coming up with a better metaphor than mining would go a long ways
327 2012-09-29 08:13:17 <amiller> yeah, decentralized notary is about the best to expect
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331 2012-09-29 08:18:07 <Impaler> hey their
332 2012-09-29 08:18:17 DutchBrat has joined
333 2012-09-29 08:18:17 <Impaler> "minting"
334 2012-09-29 08:19:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
335 2012-09-29 08:20:19 <Impaler> dosnt have the same conotation as printing
336 2012-09-29 08:20:36 <Impaler> and it is a 'coin' so mint makes a lot more sense
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340 2012-09-29 08:22:20 <Graet> the minting bit is a by product of initial distribution of bitcoins, the real thing being done is transaction verification
341 2012-09-29 08:22:24 DutchBrat has joined
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343 2012-09-29 08:26:27 <jgarzik> "transaction verification" connects the value of the process to the user in a clear way
344 2012-09-29 08:27:14 <jgarzik> you understand you need that, and being asked to give up $0.001 for the service is reasonable
345 2012-09-29 08:27:24 <jgarzik> (hopefully)
346 2012-09-29 08:27:29 <amiller> i hate the initial block reward thing because it is the dominating force right now, but makes it difficult to understand bitcoin in the steady state
347 2012-09-29 08:27:39 <jgarzik> yep
348 2012-09-29 08:27:44 <jgarzik> anyway, bedtime *poof*
349 2012-09-29 08:27:59 <Impaler> yes we have to wait a long time too see if its really going to work long term
350 2012-09-29 08:28:03 <amiller> 'hate's not the right word of course since it's useful, but still confusing
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352 2012-09-29 08:28:58 <Impaler> if you look at bitcoin as a protocol development project the design->test->redesign cycle is terribly long
353 2012-09-29 08:28:59 <amiller> i think the initial block reward is effectively a timer that's running out, we have to solve all the biggest problems before then
354 2012-09-29 08:29:32 lggr has joined
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356 2012-09-29 08:30:24 <Impaler> thats another way of looking at it
357 2012-09-29 08:30:36 leotreasure_ has joined
358 2012-09-29 08:31:16 <amiller> maybe the bitcoin foundation will be able to get a lot more people to contribute in development
359 2012-09-29 08:31:47 <amiller> i hope they reach out to a bunch of famous cryptography and distributed protocols people and get them to do substantive review
360 2012-09-29 08:32:11 <Impaler> yea more developers would help but I worry that the BIG fixes will be resisted by users
361 2012-09-29 08:33:04 <Impaler> raw security like that will be accepted, but the economic contradictions seem insurmountable
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387 2012-09-29 09:10:00 <lucasleiva> bitcoin for sale cheap pm me
388 2012-09-29 09:10:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
389 2012-09-29 09:10:35 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #85: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 2 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/85/
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391 2012-09-29 09:12:09 <midnightmagic> "economic contradictions"? :)
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422 2012-09-29 10:28:35 <sipa> TD: regarding that error, when was that datadir built? i changed the database format recently
423 2012-09-29 10:28:49 <TD> a couple of days ago, it was post inclusion of the version number
424 2012-09-29 10:28:55 <TD> i haven't synced my client since
425 2012-09-29 10:29:02 <TD> er, merged with master i mean
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427 2012-09-29 10:31:38 theorb_ is now known as theorbtwo
428 2012-09-29 10:34:39 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #86: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 1 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/86/
429 2012-09-29 10:35:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
430 2012-09-29 10:36:47 <sipa> TD: strange, i'll try to re-import everything from scratch
431 2012-09-29 10:37:09 <TD> this is when starting a client that was running previously. i wonder if there's some issue with hard shutdown or
432 2012-09-29 10:37:25 <TD> well, imean, i don't remember how i shut it down
433 2012-09-29 10:37:38 <TD> but it seems to have got itself stuck now
434 2012-09-29 10:38:02 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
435 2012-09-29 10:38:40 <sipa> well, there is a potential issue if the block and coin databases do get flushed to disk, but the block itself doesn't
436 2012-09-29 10:38:50 <sipa> and that could explain what you got
437 2012-09-29 10:39:20 <sipa> every once in a while all three are sync'ed to disk
438 2012-09-29 10:39:27 <TD> hmm
439 2012-09-29 10:39:27 <sipa> in the correct order
440 2012-09-29 10:39:27 lggr has joined
441 2012-09-29 10:39:38 <sipa> but doin that for every block (during IBD) is terribly slow
442 2012-09-29 10:39:45 <TD> IBD had finished
443 2012-09-29 10:40:19 <TD> yeah, the error does imply it's trying to read a block that does not exist on disk
444 2012-09-29 10:40:23 <sipa> indeed
445 2012-09-29 10:40:58 <sipa> i thought about adding a thread that is responsible for writing stuff to databases and files, and keeping blocks in memory while it's doing that
446 2012-09-29 10:41:01 <TD> i guess this is fundamental to the design of having block data stored outside the database
447 2012-09-29 10:41:14 <TD> i wonder how much it'd cost to have the blocks also written to the leveldb
448 2012-09-29 10:41:42 <sipa> i don't mind writing it to a database, but certainly not to the same one
449 2012-09-29 10:41:52 <TD> if it's not the same one, it wouldn't resolve the issue
450 2012-09-29 10:41:53 <sipa> which would have the same problem
451 2012-09-29 10:42:13 <TD> what's wrong with writing it to the same one? if the keyspace is chosen properly it'd essentially be in a separate set of tablets
452 2012-09-29 10:42:32 <TD> sorry, not tablets, ssts
453 2012-09-29 10:43:48 <sipa> well, there are 3 datasets now: blocks, block index, coin set
454 2012-09-29 10:44:08 <sipa> having an entry in the block index that isn't in the blocks is a problem
455 2012-09-29 10:44:27 <sipa> but having the coin set be further ahead than the block index is a problem too
456 2012-09-29 10:44:45 <TD> i wonder how leveldb performance would be affected if blocks were stored in the block index db under keys like block:000000200403:hash -> blockdata
457 2012-09-29 10:44:56 <TD> they'd essentially be sorted in the database in height order
458 2012-09-29 10:45:13 <TD> so there should be minimal movement of data during compaction. then block index and block data could be done in the same write batch
459 2012-09-29 10:45:58 <TD> irritating.
460 2012-09-29 10:46:04 <TD> i guess i need to resync the chain from scratch
461 2012-09-29 10:46:17 <TD> how did the old bdb code do this? did it just flush the blkdat file after every write?
462 2012-09-29 10:46:25 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
463 2012-09-29 10:46:30 <sipa> no
464 2012-09-29 10:46:40 <sipa> you should have experiences the exact same problem with bdb
465 2012-09-29 10:47:17 <sipa> but i've rarely seen those
466 2012-09-29 10:47:28 <TD> hm
467 2012-09-29 10:48:09 lggr has joined
468 2012-09-29 10:48:11 <TD> what's the best way to recover? delete the coins and blktree directories?
469 2012-09-29 10:48:15 <TD> it'll rebuild from the files in blocks/ ?
470 2012-09-29 10:48:25 <sipa> no
471 2012-09-29 10:48:41 <sipa> you can delete the coins, and it will rebuild if the blocks+blktree are intact
472 2012-09-29 10:48:46 <sipa> but that's not your problem here
473 2012-09-29 10:49:08 <TD> what's in blktree?
474 2012-09-29 10:49:21 <sipa> the block index
475 2012-09-29 10:49:29 <sipa> basically a blockhash -> diskpos map
476 2012-09-29 10:49:36 <sipa> with some metadata about the block files
477 2012-09-29 10:49:54 <sipa> like how large the files are, how many blocks in them, which heights, which dates
478 2012-09-29 10:50:05 <sipa> and where the undo data is
479 2012-09-29 10:50:15 <TD> ah
480 2012-09-29 10:50:18 <TD> why "tree" ?
481 2012-09-29 10:50:30 <sipa> because it represents the block tree
482 2012-09-29 10:50:44 <sipa> as opposed to data about the active chain in the tree, which is in coin
483 2012-09-29 10:50:51 <TD> ok
484 2012-09-29 10:51:31 <TD> so there's no way to recover from this beyond deleting coins, blocks, blktree and then resyncing from a remote node
485 2012-09-29 10:53:03 <sipa> i'm afraid so
486 2012-09-29 10:53:11 <sipa> well, there's -loadblock
487 2012-09-29 10:54:44 leotreasure has joined
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489 2012-09-29 10:55:24 <TD> it might be worth experimenting with using one leveldb for everything, and see how it affects performance
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493 2012-09-29 10:57:19 <TD> having situations which are known to cause nodes to get stuck and need reinitializing isn't great, even if it only happens once in a blue moon
494 2012-09-29 10:57:20 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
495 2012-09-29 10:57:28 <TD> (not that bitcoinj is any better, sigh)
496 2012-09-29 10:57:30 <sipa> i certainly agree
497 2012-09-29 10:58:10 <sipa> but storing blocks inside leveldb would also imply that all block data gets written twice (once to the log, once to the database, and perhaps a few times when rewriting the tablets)
498 2012-09-29 10:59:15 leotreasure has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
499 2012-09-29 10:59:25 <sipa> bleh, just reproduced
500 2012-09-29 10:59:36 <sipa> i yanked the power cable and battery from my laptop during IBD
501 2012-09-29 10:59:44 <TD> :(
502 2012-09-29 10:59:56 <TD> yes, it would definitely increase throughput a lot
503 2012-09-29 11:00:11 <TD> OTOH read bandwidth is fairly cheap, disk seeks are the costly part
504 2012-09-29 11:00:22 <TD> that's pretty much the rationale behind the leveldb design
505 2012-09-29 11:00:28 <TD> and it's all done on a separate thread
506 2012-09-29 11:00:34 <sipa> yes, i know
507 2012-09-29 11:00:37 <TD> so, in the end it may or may not make much difference, i don't have a good feel for it
508 2012-09-29 11:01:01 <sipa> for data that's frequently read but infrequently written, it makes sense
509 2012-09-29 11:01:11 <sipa> but blocks are read almost never
510 2012-09-29 11:01:29 <sipa> then again, i'm just guessing
511 2012-09-29 11:02:28 <sipa> wait a second
512 2012-09-29 11:02:33 <TD> yeah, i don't know of any way to avoid this situation though other than flushing the blocks after every write. and even then maybe all you do is shrink the size of the race
513 2012-09-29 11:02:41 <sipa> this is not ultraprune or leveldb!
514 2012-09-29 11:03:09 <sipa> TD: sure there is a solution; do all leveldb writes and block writes synchronously
515 2012-09-29 11:03:16 <sipa> but do it for many blocks at once
516 2012-09-29 11:03:24 <sipa> in a separate thread
517 2012-09-29 11:03:35 <TD> hmm
518 2012-09-29 11:03:55 <TD> you mean just build up a giant writebatch that covers hundreds of blocks, then set the leveldb option that makes it flush everything with every write
519 2012-09-29 11:03:58 <TD> yeah i guess so
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521 2012-09-29 11:04:27 <sipa> currently i do an fsync + sync leveldb write every time >5000 transactions changed
522 2012-09-29 11:04:41 <sipa> which is a few hundred blocks initially, and a few blocks now
523 2012-09-29 11:05:05 <sipa> oh no, the coin set write is non-sync, but that's not a problem
524 2012-09-29 11:05:25 <sipa> as it can lag behind on the block data
525 2012-09-29 11:05:32 lggr has joined
526 2012-09-29 11:07:14 Diapolo has joined
527 2012-09-29 11:07:24 <sipa> anyway, this "reproduced" error i got from yanking the power from my laptop was just git head bdb
528 2012-09-29 11:08:24 <TD> oh
529 2012-09-29 11:08:32 <TD> i guess we can live with it for now then
530 2012-09-29 11:08:45 <sipa> better recovery is certainly nice
531 2012-09-29 11:09:13 <sipa> like automatically rebuilding blktree if it doesn't match the stored blocks
532 2012-09-29 11:10:47 PhantomSpark has joined
533 2012-09-29 11:12:02 <sipa> so what i envision: a global block+undo data cache, which tracks which block entries/block data/undo data is "dirty", and loops: { wait_for_something_dirty(); write_dirty_block_data(); write_dirty_index_entries(); }
534 2012-09-29 11:12:39 <sipa> and then the block connection logic can issue a sync() to that cache before writing a coin set updates
535 2012-09-29 11:12:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
536 2012-09-29 11:13:00 <sipa> ").fixGrammar();
537 2012-09-29 11:13:36 <TD> wouldn't that be equivalent to doing a sync after every new block ?
538 2012-09-29 11:13:59 lggr has joined
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540 2012-09-29 11:14:16 <sipa> coin set updates aren't written after every block
541 2012-09-29 11:14:37 <sipa> (right now, after every 5000 modified transactions)
542 2012-09-29 11:15:19 <TD> ok
543 2012-09-29 11:15:23 <TD> sorry yeah you said
544 2012-09-29 11:16:06 <sipa> which might even speed things up, because right now block connection is paused while writing block/undo data
545 2012-09-29 11:17:56 <TD> so -loadblock=blk0001.dat,blk0002.dat works?
546 2012-09-29 11:18:42 leotreasure has joined
547 2012-09-29 11:20:34 <TD> (using old blkdat files, of course)
548 2012-09-29 11:21:31 <sipa> you need to specify -loadblock two times
549 2012-09-29 11:21:51 <TD> ok
550 2012-09-29 11:21:54 <TD> thanks
551 2012-09-29 11:22:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
552 2012-09-29 11:24:10 Diapolo has left ()
553 2012-09-29 11:25:42 <TD> btw welcome to zurich. hope you weren't expecting sunshine today ....
554 2012-09-29 11:26:07 lggr has joined
555 2012-09-29 11:26:45 <sipa> the weather was nice yesterday :)
556 2012-09-29 11:28:15 DBordello has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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558 2012-09-29 11:29:17 <sipa> TD: just did the same with ultraprune+leveldb; no problems
559 2012-09-29 11:29:39 <sipa> i know, it's just anecdotecal evidence right now
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561 2012-09-29 11:30:09 <TD> doh
562 2012-09-29 11:30:11 <TD> -loadblock failed
563 2012-09-29 11:30:12 <TD> hearn-macbookpro:gitrepo hearn$ ./Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/MacOS/Bitcoin-Qt -loadblock=/Users/hearn/Library/Application\ Support/Bitcoin/blk0001.dat -loadblock=/Users/hearn/Library/Application\ Support/Bitcoin/blk0002.dat
564 2012-09-29 11:30:12 <TD> Assertion failed: (txundo.vprevout.size() == tx.vin.size()), function DisconnectBlock, file src/main.cpp, line 1464.
565 2012-09-29 11:30:13 <TD> Abort trap
566 2012-09-29 11:30:27 <TD> last 5 lines of log
567 2012-09-29 11:30:27 <TD> SetBestChain: new best=000000000000d2322ffe height=108099 work=1132666466530305672 tx=271112 date=02/14/2011 20:52:41
568 2012-09-29 11:30:28 <TD> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
569 2012-09-29 11:30:28 <TD> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
570 2012-09-29 11:30:28 <TD> REORGANIZE: Disconnect 1 blocks; 0000000000017577476e..000000000000d2322ffe
571 2012-09-29 11:30:28 <TD> REORGANIZE: Connect 2 blocks; 0000000000017577476e..00000000000217a8b907
572 2012-09-29 11:30:39 <sipa> and that's entirely in a clean setup?
573 2012-09-29 11:30:43 <sipa> from scratch?
574 2012-09-29 11:30:49 <TD> that was after deleting coins, blocks, blktree
575 2012-09-29 11:31:08 <TD> and using blk0001.dat/0002.dat that were in that directory. perhaps left over from a pre-leveldb run
576 2012-09-29 11:31:16 <TD> pre-ultraprune i mean
577 2012-09-29 11:31:20 <sipa> doesn't matter
578 2012-09-29 11:31:33 <sipa> you should be able to pipe /dev/urandom into -loadblock without problems
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580 2012-09-29 11:33:05 <sipa> yo're on OSX?
581 2012-09-29 11:33:22 <sipa> maybe a platform-specific problem somewhere
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590 2012-09-29 11:47:25 <TD> alright
591 2012-09-29 11:47:28 <TD> re-sync from a remote node it is
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633 2012-09-29 13:06:36 <denisx> can someone explain to me why the count of transactions in buildmerkletree is not in par with the poolsz value I see in debug.log?
634 2012-09-29 13:06:38 lggr has joined
635 2012-09-29 13:07:04 <denisx> on par
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638 2012-09-29 13:13:14 <TD> poolsz is all pending transactions
639 2012-09-29 13:13:25 <TD> buildmerkletree includes only pending transactions that meet your policy, i'd think
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654 2012-09-29 13:42:09 <sipa> what TD said
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686 2012-09-29 14:50:34 <lucasleiva> anyone buying
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691 2012-09-29 15:03:57 <Hasimir> lucasleiva, wrong channel, this is dev and you probably want otc
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697 2012-09-29 15:16:04 Crazy_man has joined
698 2012-09-29 15:16:21 <Crazy_man> Check out my new Bitcoin project idea: http://pastebin.com/1vNP6CRP Does anyone wanna participate?
699 2012-09-29 15:18:58 lggr has joined
700 2012-09-29 15:19:57 Joric has joined
701 2012-09-29 15:20:11 <Luke-Jr> Crazy_man: sounds self-contradicting
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704 2012-09-29 15:22:17 <Crazy_man> how so
705 2012-09-29 15:23:58 <Crazy_man> Luke-Jr: you dont like the id of anonymous donations through bitcoins
706 2012-09-29 15:24:20 <Luke-Jr> Crazy_man: anonymous generally means laundering, which is a crime
707 2012-09-29 15:24:47 <Luke-Jr> so it doesn't make sense to have a rule against illegal activity
708 2012-09-29 15:25:00 <Crazy_man> for it to be laundering, money has to be dirty
709 2012-09-29 15:25:08 <Crazy_man> in the first place
710 2012-09-29 15:25:21 <Luke-Jr> nope
711 2012-09-29 15:25:22 <Crazy_man> like money from drug sales
712 2012-09-29 15:25:35 <Luke-Jr> laundering is concealing the source of it, period, AFAIK
713 2012-09-29 15:25:59 <sipa> still, anonimity is not a crime
714 2012-09-29 15:26:04 <sipa> privacy is a very basic right
715 2012-09-29 15:26:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
716 2012-09-29 15:26:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the line between privacy and laundry is blurry :<
717 2012-09-29 15:26:40 <Crazy_man> thats only for >$10,000
718 2012-09-29 15:26:44 <Crazy_man> banks have to report
719 2012-09-29 15:26:56 <Crazy_man> transactions
720 2012-09-29 15:27:17 <sipa> if you pay with your own legally-earned cash in a shop, the source is concealed
721 2012-09-29 15:27:26 <sipa> it's perfectly legal though
722 2012-09-29 15:27:41 <Crazy_man> luke is right about banks having to report >$10,000
723 2012-09-29 15:28:06 <Crazy_man> transactions
724 2012-09-29 15:28:10 <Crazy_man> but this is not a bank
725 2012-09-29 15:28:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the source is you :p
726 2012-09-29 15:28:19 <Crazy_man> more so an escrow
727 2012-09-29 15:28:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: nobody knows where it came from
728 2012-09-29 15:28:35 <sipa> probably not even you
729 2012-09-29 15:28:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'd think all that matters is who is paying
730 2012-09-29 15:29:00 <Crazy_man> Luke-Jr: $10,000 reporting law only applies to cash transactions not bitcoins
731 2012-09-29 15:29:00 <sipa> certainly not
732 2012-09-29 15:29:05 <Luke-Jr> eg, if A gives money to B to pay C, it's really A paying C, but C doesn't know that
733 2012-09-29 15:29:20 <Luke-Jr> but so long as A isn't involved, C doesn't need to know..
734 2012-09-29 15:29:44 <Luke-Jr> Crazy_man: I think you need to consult a lawyer before you act on that opinion
735 2012-09-29 15:29:58 <Luke-Jr> I don't think any of these laws are "only for cash"
736 2012-09-29 15:30:01 <Diablo-D3> unless the government declares bitcoin a legal and regulated monetary instrument
737 2012-09-29 15:30:07 <Diablo-D3> then it does.
738 2012-09-29 15:30:21 lggr has joined
739 2012-09-29 15:30:40 <Luke-Jr> Crazy_man: btw, IANAL, or anyone else here AFAIK âº
740 2012-09-29 15:30:41 <Crazy_man> i guess i will have to get peoples' information for $10k+ transactions
741 2012-09-29 15:30:44 <Crazy_man> if they ever happen
742 2012-09-29 15:30:47 <sipa> ianal, but i see no reason why a transaction worth $10000 or more, when the medium is goldfish, wouldn't need to be reported
743 2012-09-29 15:30:47 Matt_von_Mises has joined
744 2012-09-29 15:31:01 * Luke-Jr ponders $10k worth of goldfish
745 2012-09-29 15:31:09 <Matt_von_Mises> Hello. Does anyone understand RAND_add's entropy argument?
746 2012-09-29 15:31:44 <Crazy_man> but i dont think i have to report the person's name
747 2012-09-29 15:31:45 <sipa> yes, it points to the random data
748 2012-09-29 15:31:51 <Crazy_man> i ust have to report
749 2012-09-29 15:31:56 <Crazy_man> the transaction
750 2012-09-29 15:32:00 <sipa> well, not necessarily entirely random, just data that contains some entropy
751 2012-09-29 15:32:22 <Luke-Jr> Crazy_man: considering the Patriot Act?
752 2012-09-29 15:32:31 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: oh, you mean that double passed in?
753 2012-09-29 15:32:41 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: that's the amount of entropy in the data passed in
754 2012-09-29 15:32:43 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Yes the double
755 2012-09-29 15:33:06 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: what are you adding?
756 2012-09-29 15:33:41 <Crazy_man> Luke-jr: patriot act doesnt have a money laundering provision as far as i know
757 2012-09-29 15:33:58 <Matt_von_Mises> So it's the amount of bytes in the data which are supposedly random? So if I get someone to type something random in the terminal (eg. sfugweo9h32f;ewG'EWGEWG\wptw9gfs) the value should be the length of the string if I try to add that?
758 2012-09-29 15:34:08 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: stop
759 2012-09-29 15:34:11 <Crazy_man> Luke-Jr: would a bitcoin donation website be hard to develop
760 2012-09-29 15:34:20 <TD> patriot act did change AML provisions in US law, notably around hawala networks. however, AML laws are both vague and vary by jurisdiction
761 2012-09-29 15:34:20 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: data != entropy
762 2012-09-29 15:34:26 <TD> so it's not worth trying to discuss it in the general case.
763 2012-09-29 15:34:31 <TD> for the US you'd need to refer to state-level regulations, even
764 2012-09-29 15:34:54 <Luke-Jr> Crazy_man: Patriot Act is why banks are required to get photo ID
765 2012-09-29 15:35:07 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: entropy is the degree of randomness; if every byte was fully independent from all the others, and each had a 1/256 chance for being any byte, then yes
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767 2012-09-29 15:35:18 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: but keyboard input is FAR from as random as that
768 2012-09-29 15:35:41 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: That's what I thought, the text wont even include every value since it will only include a range of characters from a keyboard input.
769 2012-09-29 15:35:58 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Yes, so what I want to know is how to calculate the value.
770 2012-09-29 15:36:21 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: you're better off not using the typed data at all, but recording the microsecond timestamps of the keypresses, and using the sub-millisecond values of those as entropy source
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772 2012-09-29 15:36:47 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: people might be pressing the 'a' key the whole time, in which case the text contains almost no entropy
773 2012-09-29 15:37:07 <sipa> in general, don't ask people for entropy, because humans typically misunderstand what it means
774 2012-09-29 15:37:18 <sipa> just let them perform a task to generate it
775 2012-09-29 15:37:38 <TD> Luke-Jr: that's the "banking secrecy act", actually
776 2012-09-29 15:37:45 <TD> patriot act just ramped up the aggressiveness of the system not created it
777 2012-09-29 15:37:57 <TD> (BSA created the concept of money laundering)
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780 2012-09-29 15:38:17 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: OK, I suppose I could just use dev/random and ask for the user to move the cursor around because apparently moving the cursor provides entropy to dev/random (I read that somewhere)?
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783 2012-09-29 15:39:25 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: if your system has a /dev/random, definitely use it
784 2012-09-29 15:39:35 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: but don't exhaust it
785 2012-09-29 15:41:30 Crazy_man has left ()
786 2012-09-29 15:42:12 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Ok thanks. I'm reading it once on start-up.
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808 2012-09-29 16:18:09 <sipa> BlueMatt, Luke-Jr: pushed an update to bitcoin-seeder; finding onion peers should work now
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817 2012-09-29 16:31:42 <yellowhat> Crazy_Man i have briefly read your text. if you want to do a "kickstarter for bitcoin" i think its a good idea. if you use multisig correctly you can remove a lot of potential problems and trust issues. also i think its hard work (4-20 weeks of serious full-time coding) do do it really well and you need a marketing budget to get things rolling. good luck :)
818 2012-09-29 16:34:34 <yellowhat> oh he is gone already
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826 2012-09-29 16:42:29 <gavinandresen> Before somebody asks: yep, I know that bitcoinfoundation.org is down. According to RackSpace, looks like a hardware problem not a DDoS
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837 2012-09-29 16:54:53 <kreal> I hate what stuff like that happens.
838 2012-09-29 16:55:03 <kreal> more so in the start up period.
839 2012-09-29 16:55:15 <kreal> its awful.
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845 2012-09-29 17:00:41 <kreal> on a side note I tried signin up providing WalletBit as companyname, then noticed the bitcoin prices and decided. apparently not for me.
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850 2012-09-29 17:15:18 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: BF needs a twitter for status updates like that
851 2012-09-29 17:15:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
852 2012-09-29 17:16:32 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: good idea...
853 2012-09-29 17:16:32 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
854 2012-09-29 17:16:43 <jgarzik> yellowhat: BTW RE KickStarter, you don't even need CHECK_MULTISIG. Just create an anyone-can-pay transaction that sends $TargetAmount to $PublicKey. Send it around, people add signatures as they like. It remains an invalid transaction until it hits the target amount.
855 2012-09-29 17:16:55 lggr has joined
856 2012-09-29 17:18:02 <jgarzik> speaking of... would be interesting to add a crowdfunding RPC
857 2012-09-29 17:18:12 <jgarzik> add-sig-to-remote-tx
858 2012-09-29 17:18:29 <jgarzik> download tx from $URL, sign it, and re-upload
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862 2012-09-29 17:22:46 <gavinandresen> That reminds me... can I get some ACKs on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1818
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869 2012-09-29 17:29:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: without tor?
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871 2012-09-29 17:30:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: obviously not
872 2012-09-29 17:30:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not obviously :<
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874 2012-09-29 17:31:00 <sipa> well you can't connect to tor without tor :)
875 2012-09-29 17:31:08 <sipa> we don't replicate tor functionality inside bitcoin
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882 2012-09-29 17:39:56 <sipa> wow, 10 onion peers and 84 ipv6 peers already
883 2012-09-29 17:40:27 <gavinandresen> nice!
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948 2012-09-29 19:30:32 <jgarzik> Man. This hazek-edits-Gavins-post thing is REALLY bugging me.
949 2012-09-29 19:30:55 <kjj_> meh. seemed to be well intentioned, but misguided
950 2012-09-29 19:31:00 <jgarzik> IMNSHO that is a worse abuse of moderator powers than simply deleting a post from a flamewar opponent.
951 2012-09-29 19:31:16 <jgarzik> And it calls into question -every- past post by gavin/satoshi/me/anyone else.
952 2012-09-29 19:31:57 <kjj_> none of the messages on the forum are signed. they are just entries in a database
953 2012-09-29 19:32:12 <kjj_> they are in question the second the are posted.
954 2012-09-29 19:32:25 <jgarzik> true enough
955 2012-09-29 19:32:27 <enmaku> @jgarzik waitwait, which post? I'm out of the loop here...
956 2012-09-29 19:32:40 <kjj_> the first post in the foundation thread
957 2012-09-29 19:32:56 <enmaku> oh dear... off I go to research
958 2012-09-29 19:32:59 <jgarzik> but it shouldn't be that easy, without admin rights
959 2012-09-29 19:33:02 <kjj_> the links didn't work for hazek (the moderator of that board) so he changed the links to .com
960 2012-09-29 19:33:30 <jgarzik> some mod might decide it is fun to change all of satoshi's old posts, just to win a flame war
961 2012-09-29 19:33:30 * enmaku facepalm
962 2012-09-29 19:33:42 <jgarzik> only the physical admin should be able to do that
963 2012-09-29 19:33:44 <kjj_> heh. I just figured out how to reduce the noise to signal ratio
964 2012-09-29 19:34:14 <kjj_> we can make new forums that require all posts to be GPG signed
965 2012-09-29 19:34:21 <enmaku> well just because the forum doesn't have digital signing built in doesn't mean you can't just sign things yourself, right?
966 2012-09-29 19:34:34 <enmaku> wait, what am I saying, the conversion from bbcode to html would fubar ths signature
967 2012-09-29 19:34:37 <jgarzik> enmaku: yep... and we do for major announcements, download links, etc.
968 2012-09-29 19:34:46 <jgarzik> yeah, no markup
969 2012-09-29 19:35:17 <jgarzik> and it is a fair point, in retrospect, and gavin should have signed this with a pgp key
970 2012-09-29 19:35:26 <jgarzik> s/and/that/
971 2012-09-29 19:35:33 <enmaku> bitcointalk appears to be down for me right now, so I guess no research :(
972 2012-09-29 19:35:53 <jgarzik> enmaku: very, very, very slow but working here
973 2012-09-29 19:36:00 <enmaku> and as soon as I say it, it comes back up. I think I just need to go back to bed today
974 2012-09-29 19:36:04 <jgarzik> enmaku: 2 minutes per link slow
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977 2012-09-29 19:37:05 <enmaku> looks like they've all been changed back to .org
978 2012-09-29 19:37:19 <enmaku> still it's a really solid point, this totally should've been signed
979 2012-09-29 19:40:28 root2 has joined
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981 2012-09-29 19:41:17 <kjj_> I presume that edits are logged. we'll have to ask Theymos about that (unless someone else knows for sure)
982 2012-09-29 19:42:38 <enmaku> @kjj_ yeah, SMF logs by default, but they log to the same db the posts are held in, there are plenty of ways for someone with db access to do an un-logged edit
983 2012-09-29 19:43:29 <enmaku> it can also be disabled outright
984 2012-09-29 19:43:45 <enmaku> which, stupid as it sounds, might have been done given the kind of traffic and responsiveness problems they've had
985 2012-09-29 19:43:50 <kjj_> yeah, trust is always a factor. at some point, you are relying on someone
986 2012-09-29 19:43:53 <jgarzik> AFAIK theymos does maintain an admin <-> moderator distinction, where moderators [should not] have direct db access
987 2012-09-29 19:44:15 <enmaku> @jgarzik well that's reassuring at least
988 2012-09-29 19:44:35 <jgarzik> I would rather have a distributed forum with each post signed by ECDSA ;p
989 2012-09-29 19:44:50 <enmaku> @jgarzik oh god, ForumCoin
990 2012-09-29 19:44:55 <enmaku> what did you just do
991 2012-09-29 19:45:02 <lianj> have a forum with a git backend
992 2012-09-29 19:45:26 toffoo has joined
993 2012-09-29 19:45:35 <kjj_> heh, the foundation could set up a CA, and the forum could reject posts that aren't signed by an approved certificate...
994 2012-09-29 19:45:40 <dangermouse_> ForumCoin
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999 2012-09-29 19:50:35 <Eliel> jgarzik: Have you looked at this p2p forum software called Osiris?
1000 2012-09-29 19:50:54 <jgarzik> lianj: *ding* 10 points to you ;p
1001 2012-09-29 19:51:20 <jgarzik> git backend, signed posts
1002 2012-09-29 19:51:40 <jgarzik> extra points for "distributed among untrusted parties on the internet"
1003 2012-09-29 19:52:13 <jgarzik> Eliel: this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_%28Serverless_Portal_System%29
1004 2012-09-29 19:52:22 <enmaku> how transparent is all the backend and signing stuff to the end users though
1005 2012-09-29 19:52:54 <enmaku> bc using git for a forum sounds like a great idea to a dev, but if it's not simplified for users it drives away 90% of the community
1006 2012-09-29 19:53:22 <sipa> "hey i don't like this discussion; sec, let me fork ik..."
1007 2012-09-29 19:53:36 <Eliel> jgarzik: yes, that.
1008 2012-09-29 19:54:09 <jgarzik> hehehe
1009 2012-09-29 19:54:24 <jgarzik> not quite _that_ distributed. admins and moderators would have familiar access perms
1010 2012-09-29 19:54:58 <jgarzik> though yes, if the community thought the admins went off the rails, they could "elect" a new admin or moderator key
1011 2012-09-29 19:55:01 <Eliel> jgarzik: osiris does support reasonably heavy central control too :P
1012 2012-09-29 19:55:25 <Eliel> for an individual board
1013 2012-09-29 19:56:29 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1014 2012-09-29 19:56:53 <enmaku> bah the isis PHP gateway is read-only, you actually have to install a client app to post
1015 2012-09-29 19:58:28 <enmaku> and by the time you talk the average user through downloading a client and setting up a keypair... we might as well just write ForumCoin
1016 2012-09-29 19:58:38 <Eliel> enmaku: it's very transparent. The program is a background service you interact with through your browser.
1017 2012-09-29 19:58:58 <Eliel> feels like a pretty normal forum to the user
1018 2012-09-29 19:59:09 <lianj> good thing about the git backend is you couldnt change stuff in the history unnoticed without writing the whole commit history
1019 2012-09-29 19:59:19 <enmaku> Eliel: once it's set up, yes. it's getting people through the setup process that's gonna suck
1020 2012-09-29 19:59:20 <lianj> *rewriting
1021 2012-09-29 19:59:49 <Eliel> enmaku: I don't remember how it was but I think it was start installer, next, next, next, next, done.
1022 2012-09-29 19:59:58 <Eliel> (for windows version)
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1024 2012-09-29 20:00:17 <enmaku> Eliel: so keypair management is done transparently?
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1026 2012-09-29 20:00:27 <enmaku> no user input necessary?
1027 2012-09-29 20:01:05 <Eliel> enmaku: I can't remember having to generate them manually, so I think. It's been quite a while since I installed it so I might just have forgotten though.
1028 2012-09-29 20:01:22 <kjj_> seems unlikely. key management is hard to do right, and not because the UI is bad
1029 2012-09-29 20:02:02 <Eliel> I think it's abstracted behind account creation. You can create different identities in it.
1030 2012-09-29 20:02:45 <kjj_> heh. if key management is easy, it probably isn't secure. and if it is secure, it probably isn't easy.
1031 2012-09-29 20:02:53 <kjj_> that's been my experience with PKI since forever
1032 2012-09-29 20:03:16 <Eliel> kjj_: what aspects of security do you mean?
1033 2012-09-29 20:03:41 <enmaku> I think it's probably best we just stick with GPG/ECDSA signing on standard platforms
1034 2012-09-29 20:03:59 <enmaku> just let people who want to check signatures do so without causing any static for those that don't
1035 2012-09-29 20:05:39 <Eliel> it looks like it's just abstracted as an user-account creation (that you can export and import if necessary)
1036 2012-09-29 20:07:07 <Eliel> no direct involvement with the encryption keys that I can see here.
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1038 2012-09-29 20:08:18 <Eliel> just the usual, set username and password and you're done. you can login or logout.
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1040 2012-09-29 20:08:52 <Eliel> that it doesn't ask for email address is probably the most glaring oddity there.
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1047 2012-09-29 20:26:34 <midnightmagic> A javascript post-markup mechanism could be used rather than server-side, and the signature would work fine. Or just a subsection of the message could contain a cleartext attached sig.
1048 2012-09-29 20:26:52 cheako has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1049 2012-09-29 20:26:58 <midnightmagic> Also, versioned edits would basically solve the problem too.
1050 2012-09-29 20:27:08 <kjj_> if you hit quote on a post, you get the "source". presumably that is what would be signed and verified
1051 2012-09-29 20:27:09 <midnightmagic> Unfortunately SMF doesn't have versioned edits.
1052 2012-09-29 20:27:36 <kjj_> Eliel: keeping keys secure, distributing them, deciding which ones to trust and not trust.
1053 2012-09-29 20:28:16 lggr has joined
1054 2012-09-29 20:28:17 <enmaku> midnightmagic: it does keep a timestamped edit log though, yes?
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1058 2012-09-29 20:28:31 <enmaku> midnightmagic: not necessarily the content of each edit, but a log of who edited when
1059 2012-09-29 20:28:35 <midnightmagic> The real solution is a browser-based plugin for managing identity, light signatures, proper secure signatures, and simple capabilities delegation.
1060 2012-09-29 20:29:01 <midnightmagic> enmaku: I think the full content should be completely versioned and totally visible without admin intervention.
1061 2012-09-29 20:29:12 <kjj_> well, SSL's PKI model blows chunks. It is seriously the worst thing that ever happened to the internet. but we all use it because the other models are worse
1062 2012-09-29 20:29:24 <jgarzik> kjj_: are there any better models?
1063 2012-09-29 20:29:35 <midnightmagic> SSL does suck. something simpler and gnupg-based would probably be better.
1064 2012-09-29 20:29:41 <kjj_> jgarzik: not that I've ever heard of
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1066 2012-09-29 20:30:01 <kjj_> Moxie might be onto something, but his ideas don't seem to pan out when you follow them to the end
1067 2012-09-29 20:30:08 <midnightmagic> WoT seems to me to be the only real solution to the issue.
1068 2012-09-29 20:30:32 <enmaku> midnightmagic: well, yes, full versioned edits would be ideal, but in their absence it's better to have something than nothing :)
1069 2012-09-29 20:30:39 <midnightmagic> convergence you mean? that will only work if people begin making proper use of WoT, and not the sort of wot that that stupid voting mechanism uses..
1070 2012-09-29 20:30:47 <midnightmagic> enmaku: I agree.
1071 2012-09-29 20:31:13 <midnightmagic> I think the WoT mechanism I'm talking about is mywot.com
1072 2012-09-29 20:31:16 <kjj_> the PGP/GPG model seems to be the least-centralized, but it doesn't really work well in practice
1073 2012-09-29 20:31:24 <enmaku> midnightmagic: actually one of the many reasons I prefer StackExchange chat to IRC, though none of the Bitcoin community seems to ever use it :(
1074 2012-09-29 20:31:47 <midnightmagic> kjj_: It can if you are willing to rate someone numerically *and* willing to accept a few levels of trust away from you.
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1076 2012-09-29 20:32:22 <midnightmagic> kjj_: Local WoT introducers for example, would work for the case of families and friends. Then the local tech guy can just point them to the convergence sites that they think are trustworthy.
1077 2012-09-29 20:32:24 <kjj_> midnightmagic: which is why no one uses GPG. (for approximate values of "no one")
1078 2012-09-29 20:33:08 <sipa> enmaku: is that group chat?
1079 2012-09-29 20:33:33 <midnightmagic> kjj_: You mean except for every secure distribution mechanism for every free OS there is, most cryptographers, every hacker that accepts pseudo-nonymous incoming messages, almost everyone in #bitcoin-otr, and and and? :)
1080 2012-09-29 20:34:02 <enmaku> sipa: take IRC, add in full logging and versioning on every channel, markdown and oneboxing and you've got SE chat
1081 2012-09-29 20:34:02 <Eliel> kjj_: there's no way to get most people to bother about those aspects of key security without a real practical need to do so.
1082 2012-09-29 20:34:03 <midnightmagic> enmaku: What's this stackexchange chat? Does it have a WoT mechanism of some sort?
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1085 2012-09-29 20:34:18 <enmaku> oh and a lot more administrative capabilities.
1086 2012-09-29 20:34:23 <midnightmagic> Eliel: If you wrap it up into a "never have to sign in to a supported website again" people will.
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1088 2012-09-29 20:35:12 <midnightmagic> Eliel: openid would've been a nice thing but no sites out there allow custom openid providers.
1089 2012-09-29 20:35:24 <Eliel> I've seen a couple :P
1090 2012-09-29 20:35:25 <sipa> enmaku: really? i tried to use it once, and all it did was take me to a login page, while i was already logged in
1091 2012-09-29 20:35:36 <kjj_> midnightmagic: yeah, that is "no one" in the context of the internet
1092 2012-09-29 20:35:44 <enmaku> sipa: that's weird... there's a sandbox room if you want to play with it - http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/1/sandbox
1093 2012-09-29 20:36:16 <enmaku> sipa: there's also a general Bitcoin chat but as I mentioned it, no one really uses it much - http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/1233/bitcoin
1094 2012-09-29 20:36:30 <midnightmagic> kjj_: And yet when openid promised to be that thing, suddenly all kinds of major websites started supporting it.
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1096 2012-09-29 20:36:59 <Eliel> kjj_: anyway, for a forum software, key distribution and trust decisions are not so important. keeping the keys secure, though, is.
1097 2012-09-29 20:37:01 <midnightmagic> kjj_: And the idea spread into custom "login with your facebook id" b-s.
1098 2012-09-29 20:37:31 <Eliel> kjj_: the keys are used to encrypt private messages, you can use that to verify identity if need be.
1099 2012-09-29 20:37:46 <midnightmagic> kjj_: Bastardized and encompassed and stolen and mutated into uselessness by commercial interests who know it's just a countdown until something like what I describe arrives.
1100 2012-09-29 20:38:31 <Eliel> kjj_: I expect osiris keeps keys encrypted with a password. It even shows a nice bar that tells you how secure your password is when you type it.
1101 2012-09-29 20:39:00 lggr has joined
1102 2012-09-29 20:39:13 <Eliel> (at least, I can't figure out any other reason for the password that's associated with the user accounts you can create)
1103 2012-09-29 20:40:03 <midnightmagic> Eliel: lol those little weird "your password is this secure" bars are so silly.
1104 2012-09-29 20:40:57 <enmaku> midnightmagic, Eliel: insert "correct horse battery staple" XKCD comic here
1105 2012-09-29 20:41:18 <midnightmagic> enmaku: lol and that was a total misrepresentation of how secure that password actually is!
1106 2012-09-29 20:41:52 <Eliel> well, yes, now with the comic so famous, it's one of the most insecure passwords out there :D
1107 2012-09-29 20:42:21 <enmaku> Eliel: someone already used sha256("correct horse battery staple") as a brain wallet
1108 2012-09-29 20:42:37 <enmaku> not sure if it was their proof of concept or if someone else emptied it, but it's sure empty now
1109 2012-09-29 20:42:56 <midnightmagic> Eliel: Even before that.. you don't get to use every letter of a real word as part of your entropy estimation.
1110 2012-09-29 20:43:02 <sipa> enmaku: there you go, posted something :)
1111 2012-09-29 20:43:33 <Eliel> midnightmagic: that's more of a criticism on the algorithm that calculates the strength.
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1114 2012-09-29 20:45:38 <Eliel> but yeah, those can't shield against every mistake the user could make.
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1116 2012-09-29 20:50:12 <enmaku> sipa: just left you a rant on SE chat about how awesome it is and how biased I am ;)
1117 2012-09-29 20:50:43 <midnightmagic> Eliel: Yeah that's true. I just meant XKCD's author's description of the entropy in the correct horse battery staple password is incorrect.
1118 2012-09-29 20:51:06 <Eliel> oh, yeah, true that
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1172 2012-09-29 22:08:21 <Eliel> yay! someone is doing something that might work :) http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adapteva/parallella-a-supercomputer-for-everyone
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1176 2012-09-29 22:11:54 <EvanR2> so bitcoind is not only taking a shit ton of memory, but it also downloads the block chain at super turtle speed
1177 2012-09-29 22:11:57 <EvanR2> 0.6.3
1178 2012-09-29 22:12:04 <EvanR2> im not behind a nat, what gives
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1181 2012-09-29 22:19:52 <egecko> yep, just let it run
1182 2012-09-29 22:20:44 <Eliel> EvanR2: perfectly normal.
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1184 2012-09-29 22:21:33 <wizkid057> so, why dont we just use a distributed hash table?
1185 2012-09-29 22:21:34 <wizkid057> :D
1186 2012-09-29 22:24:06 <sipa> wizkid057: try as you may
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1188 2012-09-29 22:24:46 <sipa> amiller has done some great work around the idea of how a fully validating bitcoin client could work without trusted storage
1189 2012-09-29 22:26:11 <wizkid057> sipa: was just trolling, I know a DHT wouldnt work here very well. I just recall that many many less technically savy folks have suggested it and it kinda became a running joke. lol
1190 2012-09-29 22:26:28 <sipa> haha
1191 2012-09-29 22:26:39 <sipa> gmaxwell had this quote
1192 2012-09-29 22:28:14 <sipa> #bitcoin-dev-20120416.log:18:15:17< gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thingâ I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT.
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1195 2012-09-29 22:30:10 <wizkid057> rofl
1196 2012-09-29 22:30:21 <wizkid057> thats awesome
1197 2012-09-29 22:30:27 <wizkid057> how did I miss that...
1198 2012-09-29 22:30:31 * wizkid057 pulls up logs
1199 2012-09-29 22:30:47 <sipa> the timestamp is GMT+1 or GMT+2
1200 2012-09-29 22:31:10 <wizkid057> found it... haha
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1217 2012-09-29 23:01:08 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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1228 2012-09-29 23:20:57 B0g4r7__ is now known as B0g4r7
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1231 2012-09-29 23:28:33 <arij> any devs for hire? pm me!
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1234 2012-09-29 23:37:42 Arch_Coldfire has quit (Quit: Arch Linux)
1235 2012-09-29 23:37:54 <sipa> TD[gone]: mind if i edit your commit to be in leveldb/ instead of leveldb-1.5.0/ ?
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