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37 2012-09-30 01:26:27 <kreal> arij, what do you need?
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80 2012-09-30 02:43:02 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
81 2012-09-30 02:43:03 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #87: FIXED in 7 hr 11 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/87/
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115 2012-09-30 03:37:32 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: you know if that poker guy ever, you know, wrote in english how his shuffle alrgorithm worked? cause looking at that java code hurts my head too much to keep doing to figure out what he's actually doing
116 2012-09-30 03:39:48 <EvanR2> classic shuffle, for each card in the deck, swap it with a randomly picked card *after* the current position
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118 2012-09-30 03:40:11 <EvanR2> swapping with anything will give a skewed distribution
119 2012-09-30 03:42:05 <gmaxwell> see knuth shuffle.
120 2012-09-30 03:42:18 <gmaxwell> it's easy to screw up your random numbers in that though.
121 2012-09-30 03:42:32 <gmaxwell> e.g. using % to restrict the range.
122 2012-09-30 03:43:09 <EvanR2> thats a problem any time you try to pick a random item from a list
123 2012-09-30 03:43:28 <EvanR2> theres even more problems
124 2012-09-30 03:43:52 <EvanR2> theres 52 factorial permutations, crap rng cant handle that
125 2012-09-30 03:44:01 <gmaxwell> It's a 'problem' any time you need a random number from a range that is coprime to your initial range. ... I'm just mentioning that people often get it wrong in that case.
126 2012-09-30 03:44:07 <EvanR2> and good rngs will fail for some N where N! is huge
127 2012-09-30 03:44:55 <gmaxwell> EvanR2: any csprng better be able to handle it.. and if you can prove it doesn'tâ or take advantage of the fact that it can't reach all statesâ you have an attack worth publishing. :P
128 2012-09-30 03:45:37 <gmaxwell> (and 52! is only about 220 bits or soâ¦)
129 2012-09-30 03:45:44 <EvanR2> you dont typically have mission critical requirements that order 100 permutation is picked uniformly
130 2012-09-30 03:45:57 <EvanR2> gmaxwell: ya but the state for rand() is not 220 bits
131 2012-09-30 03:45:59 <gmaxwell> EvanR2: you mean like every private key we use?
132 2012-09-30 03:46:08 <gmaxwell> of course, wtf, you wouldn't use rand() for that.
133 2012-09-30 03:46:17 <gmaxwell> Besides, rand is often a LCG.
134 2012-09-30 03:46:25 <EvanR2> 'crap rng'
135 2012-09-30 03:46:30 <EvanR2> technical jargon
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137 2012-09-30 03:47:02 <EvanR2> choosing a random N bit key is not the same problem choosing uniformly from the set of permutations of something
138 2012-09-30 03:47:16 <EvanR2> its choosing uniformly from a set way smaller
139 2012-09-30 03:47:17 <gmaxwell> In fact, it is.
140 2012-09-30 03:47:59 <gmaxwell> If you have a uniform unmber of at least log2(52!) bits you can losslessly convert the uniform random number to and from the permutation.
141 2012-09-30 03:48:17 <gmaxwell> (well losslessly save that it's not quite an integer number of bits, but you reroll your uniform number if you land in that range)
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143 2012-09-30 03:48:37 <EvanR2> im not saying 52 cards is a problem for a normal rng (non crap)
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145 2012-09-30 03:48:55 <gmaxwell> EvanR2: jrmithdobbs is asking about a cryptographic poker game.
146 2012-09-30 03:49:27 <EvanR2> ok i was just on a rant about random problems with shuffling
147 2012-09-30 03:49:30 <gmaxwell> The idea that someone would have an LCG in that didn't occur to me; though I've seen bitcoin gambling sites screw up their uniformity by just using mod.
148 2012-09-30 03:49:52 <gmaxwell> (and .. also getting all their random numbers via http from random.org ...)
149 2012-09-30 03:50:08 <EvanR2> wut -_-
150 2012-09-30 03:50:11 <EvanR2> lol
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152 2012-09-30 03:50:49 <gmaxwell> I kid you not.
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154 2012-09-30 03:51:13 <EvanR2> im tired of stdlibs not coming with ways to pick a random item from a list, and shuffle a list
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156 2012-09-30 03:51:32 <EvanR2> its not something you should be reinventing every time
157 2012-09-30 03:51:49 <EvanR2> might as well not come with rngs at all
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159 2012-09-30 03:52:35 <gmaxwell> python random module does the reasonable and expected things.
160 2012-09-30 03:52:56 <gmaxwell> (well not for cryptographically secure applications; but basic random selections at least)
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168 2012-09-30 03:56:50 <EvanR2> who knows what javascript uses
169 2012-09-30 03:56:57 <EvanR2> for its rng
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287 2012-09-30 07:53:58 <bonks> Oh I just tried sending coins to myself in -qt for the first time. Does it have to be of type "Payment to yourself"? Couldn't it have appeared as two transactions in my wallet?
288 2012-09-30 07:54:32 <bonks> Just curious because I wanted some entries for bookkeeping purposes and it didn't turn out how I expected :x
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293 2012-09-30 08:08:22 <Luke-Jr> bonks: JSON-RPC interface shows it as multiple send/receive
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300 2012-09-30 08:20:19 <Impaler_> Hey Luke-Jr, my friend maaku says he was talking to you about the Freicoin project earlier
301 2012-09-30 08:20:52 <Luke-Jr> ?
302 2012-09-30 08:21:08 <Luke-Jr> I talk about so many things, but I don't recall Freicoin by name
303 2012-09-30 08:21:14 <Luke-Jr> I do recognize maaku :p
304 2012-09-30 08:21:35 <Impaler_> its the coin chain with a carrying cost for coins called demurrage
305 2012-09-30 08:22:07 <Luke-Jr> i c
306 2012-09-30 08:22:08 <Impaler_> still in development though, I've volunteered to help him with it
307 2012-09-30 08:22:48 <Impaler_> will try to do a little UI which I've done before (though not Qt, but hey what's another interface middleware to learn)
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309 2012-09-30 08:23:28 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: I would encourage you to contribute to Bitcoin instead, wherever it isn't something specific to the altcoin (ie, anything not demurrage-related)
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311 2012-09-30 08:24:25 <Impaler_> we actually had several ideas that could be ported over, but were focusing on getting the core demurrage thing done first
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313 2012-09-30 08:24:49 <bonks> Luke-Jr: Oh interesting so it's just a display feature. Thanks
314 2012-09-30 08:25:37 <Impaler_> for example maaku and I were discussing the fact that Bitcoin might be throttled by ISPs so it would be a good idea to try to prevent the packets from being sniffed
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316 2012-09-30 08:27:09 <Impaler_> so much focus is put on this 51% attack vector no ones seems to have considered that ISP's could silence the whole thing without ever entering the network
317 2012-09-30 08:27:39 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: that would be virtually impossible.
318 2012-09-30 08:27:44 <wumpus> preventing filtering by ISPs is heavily getting into tor's territory
319 2012-09-30 08:27:56 <wumpus> please leave it to smart guys such as ioerror
320 2012-09-30 08:28:24 <Impaler_> Indeed, I'm no Tor expert, but the point is that its by far the more likely attack
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323 2012-09-30 08:29:01 <midnightmagic> that's.. one of the first times I've ever heard luke refer to an unidentified altcoin as an altcoin rather than a scamcoin.
324 2012-09-30 08:29:26 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: It's not the most likely attack. :)
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326 2012-09-30 08:29:46 <Impaler_> how do you figure midnight?
327 2012-09-30 08:29:56 <wumpus> and even they have trouble preventing the latest filtering attacks by the chinese govt, they currently have some dynamic obfuscation proxy to work around it. It's just not something that we want to pull into bitcoin... just use it over TOR if you're concerned.
328 2012-09-30 08:30:04 <Luke-Jr> bonks: pretty much everything you see is just display
329 2012-09-30 08:30:26 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: It would require global coordination for questionable gain, and the workaround would be trivial, and the ISPs know this.
330 2012-09-30 08:30:55 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: economic changes are the only real excuse I can see for a parallel blockchain
331 2012-09-30 08:31:03 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
332 2012-09-30 08:31:17 <midnightmagic> ioerror has stated that Tor does not want to get into a rapidly-escalating arms race.
333 2012-09-30 08:31:51 <wumpus> neither do we
334 2012-09-30 08:32:08 <midnightmagic> they deliberately leave Tor to be easy-to-block so they don't start out with their best ideas all at once, and can slowly roll them out as needed.
335 2012-09-30 08:32:09 <Impaler_> global coordination is unessary, locally suppressing bitcoin packets would effectivly cut off large populations from transactions
336 2012-09-30 08:32:46 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: Great, so one ISP does it. What about the 99% rest of the planet, and those local users who are happy to run vpn or a collective darknet?
337 2012-09-30 08:32:52 <Impaler_> say if China used its firewall to block bitcoin packets
338 2012-09-30 08:32:57 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
339 2012-09-30 08:32:58 <wumpus> it's always possible to route and encapsulate things over other things, filtering is one of the last things I'm concerned about really
340 2012-09-30 08:33:22 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: And bitcoin does not consume much data. So why QoS it too?
341 2012-09-30 08:33:25 lggr has joined
342 2012-09-30 08:33:51 <midnightmagic> What's the incentive for an ISP to even contemplate this?
343 2012-09-30 08:33:52 <wumpus> well then someone does bitcoin-over-http et voila... thre only has to be one leak in the "wall" for it to be completely ineffective
344 2012-09-30 08:33:56 <Impaler_> obviously the motivation would originate with the financial sector thats lossing possible buisness
345 2012-09-30 08:34:06 <wumpus> after all it's a gossip network
346 2012-09-30 08:34:08 <midnightmagic> Why would an ISP care about that?
347 2012-09-30 08:34:31 Apexselas has joined
348 2012-09-30 08:34:34 <Impaler_> ISP's wouldn't care, but the financial sector can dictate to the ISPs
349 2012-09-30 08:34:55 <Impaler_> or more likely financial sector dictates to goverment that then dictates to ISPs
350 2012-09-30 08:34:57 <midnightmagic> How do you figure?
351 2012-09-30 08:35:08 <wumpus> or just use some setup over radio...
352 2012-09-30 08:35:18 <midnightmagic> Ah, well then it's not ISP at that point, it's a government-source legal attack.
353 2012-09-30 08:35:22 Jamesz has joined
354 2012-09-30 08:35:43 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
355 2012-09-30 08:35:50 <midnightmagic> And I don't know how they could craft a law which targets bitcoin but not every other non-USD currency.
356 2012-09-30 08:35:53 <Impaler_> I mean its not like Youtube 'cares' about illegal uploads of copyrighted videos, but they sure are coerced into removing them by the interests that do care
357 2012-09-30 08:35:53 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
358 2012-09-30 08:36:13 <midnightmagic> That's because sharing copyrighted material which is not yours is already illegal.
359 2012-09-30 08:36:17 <lianj> wumpus: "reading new blocks of the hours: 10110010101110â¦"
360 2012-09-30 08:36:18 <midnightmagic> So, still a government attack.
361 2012-09-30 08:36:26 <wumpus> hehe
362 2012-09-30 08:36:27 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
363 2012-09-30 08:36:31 <Impaler_> yes basically, ISPs would just be the agents
364 2012-09-30 08:37:10 <midnightmagic> Well see you're no longer talking about an ISP filtering attack. You're talking legal attack. And it still requires worldwide collaboration and treaties.
365 2012-09-30 08:37:23 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: Youtube *doesn't* remove illegal content
366 2012-09-30 08:37:41 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: and if Bitcoin is illegal, people shouldn't use it. the end.
367 2012-09-30 08:38:22 <Impaler_> I'm not saying its illegal but what would you do if it laws were passed to make it such?
368 2012-09-30 08:38:33 <lianj> vpn it
369 2012-09-30 08:39:01 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: stop using it
370 2012-09-30 08:39:07 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: In my country? I fail to see how they could target it specifically in such a way that collateral economic damage is not done.
371 2012-09-30 08:40:49 maaku has joined
372 2012-09-30 08:40:56 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
373 2012-09-30 08:41:13 <Impaler_> ISP's should be able to selectivly block or slow packets that look like they are coming from bitcoin, they would not need to cause internetwide shutdowns, that's Egypt level cludge
374 2012-09-30 08:44:43 maaku has left ()
375 2012-09-30 08:44:57 lggr has joined
376 2012-09-30 08:46:34 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: Just read this instead https://plus.google.com/u/0/108313527900507320366/posts/49UmonRzuQb
377 2012-09-30 08:47:11 pusle has quit ()
378 2012-09-30 08:47:21 <midnightmagic> and esp. comment #5
379 2012-09-30 08:52:23 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
380 2012-09-30 08:52:30 ThomasV has joined
381 2012-09-30 08:52:59 <midnightmagic> arrrgh steve martin please stop wearing mascara
382 2012-09-30 08:55:01 OneFixt_ has joined
383 2012-09-30 08:55:48 <Impaler_> not bad thats a big list but It dosn't include the ISP throttling while it dose to a lot of other stuff that will be 'messy'
384 2012-09-30 08:56:35 lggr has joined
385 2012-09-30 08:57:01 <Impaler_> the ISP attack while it dosnt eliminate Bitcoin 'all over the world' could certainly sterilize a national internat
386 2012-09-30 08:57:07 <midnightmagic> That's because ISP throttling is not a threat.
387 2012-09-30 08:57:52 <Impaler_> and if the financial system was the motivation then eliminationg competition within a nation is still a huge win for them
388 2012-09-30 08:58:41 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
389 2012-09-30 08:58:51 <midnightmagic> bitcoin is not competition when you have a licence to print money
390 2012-09-30 08:59:01 <midnightmagic> and can steal as much of it in the process, as you want to.
391 2012-09-30 08:59:36 <Impaler_> only if people are partisipating in the financial system
392 2012-09-30 09:00:00 <midnightmagic> how can they keep from doing that when the government only accepts taxes in the form of its own currency?
393 2012-09-30 09:00:04 <Impaler_> for example if merchants accept bitcoins then VISA can't extract its huge transaction fees
394 2012-09-30 09:00:05 AlexWaters has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
395 2012-09-30 09:00:48 Davincij15 has joined
396 2012-09-30 09:00:48 <midnightmagic> VISA != a bank though, to my (admittedly limited) knowledge.
397 2012-09-30 09:01:32 <Impaler_> when have I ever limited my statements to 'bank', I've been talking financial system which VISA certainly is part of
398 2012-09-30 09:02:14 <Impaler_> by definitial all financial transactions happening outside of the corporate system are lost profits for it
399 2012-09-30 09:02:31 <midnightmagic> I know you haven't: I'm referring to my own statements re: printing money. VISA on the other hand is not really a payment processor. their business is the financial enslavement of humans.
400 2012-09-30 09:03:02 <Impaler_> ok and your not afraid of them?
401 2012-09-30 09:03:09 otimm has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
402 2012-09-30 09:03:31 <midnightmagic> no, because they haven't enslaved me.
403 2012-09-30 09:03:48 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
404 2012-09-30 09:03:54 <midnightmagic> also, there's bitcoin.
405 2012-09-30 09:04:50 otimm has joined
406 2012-09-30 09:04:51 <Impaler_> ok but thats my point, they would see bitcoin, hell any viable cryptocurrency as a threat and act to suppress it
407 2012-09-30 09:05:04 lggr has joined
408 2012-09-30 09:06:30 <Impaler_> Everyone is worried about bitcoin suppression, but seem to think an ISP throttle is somehow impossible
409 2012-09-30 09:06:38 <midnightmagic> what does visa care? by the time we're an actual threat (assuming we've survived that long) it'll be too late. and in the meanwhile, an obscure little cryptocoin with a few million in stored value, cannibalizing itself to build mining infrastructure, will never be taken seriously by the global monopolies.
410 2012-09-30 09:07:46 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
411 2012-09-30 09:08:00 <Impaler_> I'm confused it will be 'too late' for whom and for what?
412 2012-09-30 09:08:37 <midnightmagic> it'll be so pervasive and far-flung that stopping it will be virtually impossible by the time they'll even bother to take notice.
413 2012-09-30 09:08:38 <Impaler_> you think bitcoin might be too popular with the public to be taken away?
414 2012-09-30 09:10:07 <Impaler_> or it will just be technically infeasable to suppress?
415 2012-09-30 09:12:01 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
416 2012-09-30 09:12:25 <midnightmagic> #2, plus there will be too much stored value in it, too much taxable economic activity.
417 2012-09-30 09:12:47 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
418 2012-09-30 09:13:10 <Impaler_> what taxes are currently being payed in the bitcoin economy?
419 2012-09-30 09:13:49 <midnightmagic> everyone who declares their income as a result of bitcoin activity?
420 2012-09-30 09:14:04 <midnightmagic> and as far as I can tell, that's everyone who's not an idiot. :)
421 2012-09-30 09:14:27 * Luke-Jr is like 5 years behind on filing taxes <.<
422 2012-09-30 09:15:02 * midnightmagic is above cheap shots like that.
423 2012-09-30 09:15:06 <midnightmagic> :-D
424 2012-09-30 09:15:17 <Luke-Jr> well, I'm not required to file
425 2012-09-30 09:15:25 <Luke-Jr> at least, I wasn't 6 years ago <.<
426 2012-09-30 09:15:26 <Impaler_> indeed any miner who didn't report his mining income would be asking for it
427 2012-09-30 09:15:33 * Luke-Jr should probably reevaluate
428 2012-09-30 09:15:52 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: I suspect many miners are in the red at the moment
429 2012-09-30 09:15:55 <Impaler_> I guess you havent made any income untill you exchange though
430 2012-09-30 09:16:04 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Whoah you think
431 2012-09-30 09:16:08 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: no, the IRS considers it income even before it's USD
432 2012-09-30 09:16:35 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: I dobut the FPGAs have paid for themselves yet
433 2012-09-30 09:16:40 <Impaler_> how do you accuratly value it when exchange fluctuates?
434 2012-09-30 09:16:45 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: and a lot of people were still buyign GPUs too late
435 2012-09-30 09:16:56 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: generally the fair market value when you get it
436 2012-09-30 09:16:59 lggr has joined
437 2012-09-30 09:17:11 RazielZ has joined
438 2012-09-30 09:17:13 <Luke-Jr> thank God for bitcoincharts.com + block times :D
439 2012-09-30 09:17:17 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: anyone who mined early and bought fpga, the mining operation paid for its own fpga growth with the combined hashrate.
440 2012-09-30 09:17:42 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: how many miners "mined early", and didn't lose out on GPUs?
441 2012-09-30 09:17:43 <Impaler_> humm seems reasonable but thats a big incentive to hoard the coins and sell later so your actual profits are higher then your reported taxes
442 2012-09-30 09:18:05 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: anyone who started <= feb 2011 at least.
443 2012-09-30 09:18:11 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: I'm sure the IRS has some tax for value improvement
444 2012-09-30 09:18:25 <Impaler_> capitol gains?
445 2012-09-30 09:18:26 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: sure, I know I'm not in the red ;p
446 2012-09-30 09:19:00 <Impaler_> you exchange immediatly and just pay on that income?
447 2012-09-30 09:19:00 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Going *into* the red is very very bad. If one is going *into* the red, then something is horrible wrong with the process.
448 2012-09-30 09:19:00 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: put it this way: the IRS has a tax for stolen property (you pay on the fair market value of it unless it's returned within the year)
449 2012-09-30 09:19:19 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: my first GPU was by definition going into the red.
450 2012-09-30 09:19:30 CvRoques has joined
451 2012-09-30 09:19:54 <Impaler_> if your mining is a buisness you could deduct all your hardware as a buisness expense
452 2012-09-30 09:20:11 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: I'm talking transition, not initial investment. I personally think the people doing an initial investment at this point are at such a severe disadvantage they probably shouldn't bother.
453 2012-09-30 09:20:13 <Impaler_> then not owe any taxes untill your turning a profit
454 2012-09-30 09:20:32 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: nevertheless, people are doing it
455 2012-09-30 09:20:44 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: right, my point exactly
456 2012-09-30 09:20:46 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Fools! lol
457 2012-09-30 09:20:58 <Impaler_> The foolish fools!
458 2012-09-30 09:21:15 <Luke-Jr> I'm pretty sure I didn't need to file for 2011 since the bubble pop had some serious capitol losses for me
459 2012-09-30 09:21:25 <midnightmagic> Hardware can't be straight deducted: depreciation expenses don't work like that on capital hardware type stuff, far as I'm aware.
460 2012-09-30 09:21:37 <Impaler_> well their is that block rewared halfing in what 2 months?
461 2012-09-30 09:21:56 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: I don't think that should have any relevance to the IRS
462 2012-09-30 09:22:14 <Impaler_> without knowing how thats going to change valuation now would be a risky time to buy a mining rig
463 2012-09-30 09:22:32 <Luke-Jr> sure
464 2012-09-30 09:22:33 <Impaler_> regardless of anything else
465 2012-09-30 09:22:42 <Luke-Jr> I only bought as much ASICs as I could be certain I'd get in the first shipment
466 2012-09-30 09:23:55 <Impaler_> midnight: I think small buisnesses get different deductions and can count it all from the start
467 2012-09-30 09:24:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
468 2012-09-30 09:24:27 <Luke-Jr> I know I'm going to have to hire some kind of accountant when I do get to doing taxes
469 2012-09-30 09:24:46 * Luke-Jr ponders if any of repute accept Bitcoins
470 2012-09-30 09:25:02 <Impaler_> If I start a hotdog stand I wouldnt need to depressiate the cart over 20 years
471 2012-09-30 09:27:36 <midnightmagic> I'm not sure that's true, but I don't feel confident in this comment.
472 2012-09-30 09:27:51 <midnightmagic> redundant man is redundant..
473 2012-09-30 09:28:31 lggr has joined
474 2012-09-30 09:29:42 PK has joined
475 2012-09-30 09:30:08 <Impaler_> So Luke-Jr you have any other questions or concerns about demurrage I can answer for ya? Same for anyone else
476 2012-09-30 09:30:19 <tcatm_> Was there ever any discussion about automatically backing up the wallet whenever the keypool changes and keeping a few recent versions?
477 2012-09-30 09:30:25 da2ce7 has joined
478 2012-09-30 09:30:56 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: yeah! how many users are using it, and are they all miners or not?
479 2012-09-30 09:31:31 <Impaler_> midnight: we havent launched yet, so far were still in beta
480 2012-09-30 09:31:35 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
481 2012-09-30 09:32:18 <Impaler_> hopefully some of the bigger pools will merge-mine it but we don't know yet
482 2012-09-30 09:32:19 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: do you plan to support merged mining?
483 2012-09-30 09:32:22 <Luke-Jr> ah
484 2012-09-30 09:32:37 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: current MM system, p2pool-like, or both?
485 2012-09-30 09:32:45 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: please tell me you took a chainid that isn't the same as namecoin. :)
486 2012-09-30 09:33:01 <Impaler_> maaku is working on the code for this, I'm not up too speed on any of it
487 2012-09-30 09:34:05 <Impaler_> I'm far more knowlegable on the economic arguments in favor of demurrage
488 2012-09-30 09:34:16 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: perhaps you should involve some of the regular dev community (got an IRC channel?) so we can help you deal with stupid mistakes in advance? :D
489 2012-09-30 09:34:35 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: AFAIK, demurrage is just an overcomplicated inflation
490 2012-09-30 09:34:44 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: Can I mine on it right now?
491 2012-09-30 09:35:13 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
492 2012-09-30 09:35:15 <Impaler_> I can give ya the beta link and show ya the github if you like
493 2012-09-30 09:35:16 <midnightmagic> demurrage's purpose is incentivizing use, correct?
494 2012-09-30 09:35:26 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: I can build from source?
495 2012-09-30 09:35:40 <midnightmagic> like a giant game of hot potato?
496 2012-09-30 09:35:52 <Impaler_> should be able too yes, here let me get the link
497 2012-09-30 09:36:09 <midnightmagic> Impaler_: after beta is over, will the mined coins still be active?
498 2012-09-30 09:36:13 Davincij15 has joined
499 2012-09-30 09:36:20 <Impaler_> https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin
500 2012-09-30 09:36:33 <Impaler_> no beta coins will be abandoned
501 2012-09-30 09:37:03 <midnightmagic> so we can mm on it right now?
502 2012-09-30 09:37:15 <midnightmagic> lol crap man why didn't you say so
503 2012-09-30 09:37:17 <Impaler_> the final release will be like Litecoin, public open, no premining
504 2012-09-30 09:37:27 <midnightmagic> except for the beta?
505 2012-09-30 09:37:30 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/b0e4268250fcafcbb9064699cf6fe668732ebf65 O.o
506 2012-09-30 09:37:48 ThomasV has joined
507 2012-09-30 09:38:32 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: is there IRC?
508 2012-09-30 09:38:55 <Impaler_> the betas are just for internal testing, thats why were destroying all the coins made in beta
509 2012-09-30 09:39:05 lggr has joined
510 2012-09-30 09:39:13 <Impaler_> oh yea were using #freicoin as the chat
511 2012-09-30 09:39:43 <midnightmagic> 02:29 < Impaler_> no beta coins will be abandoned <-- you forgot a comma didn't you
512 2012-09-30 09:39:50 * midnightmagic shakes his fist
513 2012-09-30 09:40:04 <Luke-Jr> 393 files changed, 107685 insertions(+), 96438 deletions(-)
514 2012-09-30 09:40:07 <Impaler_> :P yea
515 2012-09-30 09:40:10 fpgaminer has joined
516 2012-09-30 09:40:21 <midnightmagic> lol you suck. :)
517 2012-09-30 09:40:26 <Impaler_> all the work so far is maaku
518 2012-09-30 09:40:29 * midnightmagic drops the build on the floor.
519 2012-09-30 09:40:33 <midnightmagic> when is planned release?
520 2012-09-30 09:40:47 <Impaler_> not for a few more weeks I think
521 2012-09-30 09:41:08 <Impaler_> maaku wants to get more of the supporting services set up
522 2012-09-30 09:41:17 <midnightmagic> don't surprise us okay like some of the others have. announce it so early miners don't have a luck-based advantage.
523 2012-09-30 09:41:47 <Impaler_> like I said their is a plan for a totally unbiased launch
524 2012-09-30 09:42:04 <Luke-Jr> 329 files changed, 13605 insertions(+), 2358 deletions(-)
525 2012-09-30 09:42:07 <CvRoques> I'm using emacs and it kept using tabs for indentation and my preferred intentation style. Both are not what I want when working with bitcoin because I want to adhere to the established code style. Thus I added a .dir-locals.el to the top-dir, but carrying along local changes is a bit cumbersome.
526 2012-09-30 09:42:07 <CvRoques> Is anybody else using emacs? How do you ensure to stick to Satoshi-style? Would a pull-request with a .dir-locals.el be welcome? Is there a style-guide? Exactly which style should I configure my emacs to use ("stroustrup"?)
527 2012-09-30 09:42:32 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: I'm going to push for a lower diff 1
528 2012-09-30 09:42:52 <Impaler_> I used vi back in the day, sorry
529 2012-09-30 09:43:04 <Luke-Jr> ie, frei diff 1 being equivalent to bitcoin diff 65k or something
530 2012-09-30 09:44:01 mammique has joined
531 2012-09-30 09:44:35 <Impaler_> so as for demurrage and the 'hot potato' concept, yes it dose do that a bit but were not aiming for a rediculus level
532 2012-09-30 09:44:51 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: really! to what end?
533 2012-09-30 09:45:00 <midnightmagic> oh a lower target
534 2012-09-30 09:45:00 <Impaler_> 5% per year is what were looking at
535 2012-09-30 09:45:10 <midnightmagic> nevermind that makes sense.
536 2012-09-30 09:45:24 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
537 2012-09-30 09:45:30 <mammique> Hi all, I just compiled bitcoin from source (github) and I no longer find the bitoind binary after compilation, only bitcoin-qt is there. Is that normal? Did it moved somewhere?
538 2012-09-30 09:45:36 <Impaler_> so if you have $1000 coin balance for a year your paying ~1 per week
539 2012-09-30 09:45:44 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: so 1 block per 10 mins is only with minimum 260 Gh/s
540 2012-09-30 09:45:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
541 2012-09-30 09:46:13 <Impaler_> 5% is the historical 'basic interest' rate
542 2012-09-30 09:46:20 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: i understand. i think it's better that way.
543 2012-09-30 09:47:27 <Impaler_> according to Gesell's theory this is roughly the liquidity value of money, the value that it has because of its ability to be spent at any time
544 2012-09-30 09:48:04 <Luke-Jr> Impaler_: #freicoin
545 2012-09-30 09:49:58 lggr has joined
546 2012-09-30 09:50:41 Joric has joined
547 2012-09-30 09:51:09 <ThomasV> "rediculus"
548 2012-09-30 09:51:25 <ThomasV> I like that spelling
549 2012-09-30 09:51:29 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
550 2012-09-30 09:52:27 <Joric> too much harry potter
551 2012-09-30 09:56:25 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
552 2012-09-30 09:56:41 <ThomasV> are there spelling errors in harry potter?
553 2012-09-30 09:57:06 <Joric> there was a spell
554 2012-09-30 09:57:21 <ThomasV> never read it
555 2012-09-30 09:57:41 <Arnavion> mammique cd src; make -f makefile.unix;
556 2012-09-30 09:57:48 <Arnavion> If you make from the root it builds bitcoin-qt
557 2012-09-30 09:58:33 <Arnavion> You'll then find bitcoind under src/
558 2012-09-30 09:59:27 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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563 2012-09-30 10:15:40 <mammique> Arnavion, thanks, I give a try right now :-)
564 2012-09-30 10:19:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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569 2012-09-30 10:30:13 <mammique> Arnavion, it worked! Thanks.
570 2012-09-30 10:30:21 <Arnavion> np
571 2012-09-30 10:30:35 <Arnavion> It's there in src/README actually
572 2012-09-30 10:30:46 <Arnavion> docs/README I mean
573 2012-09-30 10:32:47 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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579 2012-09-30 10:41:50 Impaler_ has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
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602 2012-09-30 11:22:14 <denisx> sipa: hi
603 2012-09-30 11:22:43 <denisx> sipa: I started my bitcoin on osx again and needed 7 minutes with 100% load for two days
604 2012-09-30 11:23:29 <sipa> denisx: does ultraprune have the same problem?
605 2012-09-30 11:23:43 <denisx> sipa: I have no ultraprune on osx
606 2012-09-30 11:24:07 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
607 2012-09-30 11:24:12 <sipa> denisx: can you build it?
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609 2012-09-30 11:24:59 <denisx> no easily
610 2012-09-30 11:25:00 <denisx> not
611 2012-09-30 11:25:14 <sipa> ok
612 2012-09-30 11:25:25 <sipa> but the CPU load disappeared after syncing?
613 2012-09-30 11:25:30 <denisx> yes
614 2012-09-30 11:25:53 <sipa> this is 0.7?
615 2012-09-30 11:26:06 <denisx> yes
616 2012-09-30 11:26:15 <sipa> did previous versions have the same problem?
617 2012-09-30 11:26:52 <denisx> hmm, I would say yes
618 2012-09-30 11:27:18 <denisx> I start ultraprune on freebsd now with data from 11.9.
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621 2012-09-30 11:30:51 <denisx> sipa: maybe it really needs that much of cpu, Iam not sure
622 2012-09-30 11:31:14 <sipa> well, i'm not sure
623 2012-09-30 11:31:28 <sipa> it sounds like a lot, but not orders of magnitude off the scale
624 2012-09-30 11:31:58 <sipa> on my i7 CPU, at 3GHz something, i can do a few blocks per second
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630 2012-09-30 11:40:50 <denisx> ultraprune on freebsd needs now ca. 5 seconds for one block
631 2012-09-30 11:40:59 <denisx> and bitcoin-msghand is on 100% all the time
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636 2012-09-30 11:45:14 <sipa> i wonder where it's spending its time
637 2012-09-30 11:45:30 <denisx> looping! ;)
638 2012-09-30 11:46:55 <sipa> what you say sounds like a factor 10 slower than expected
639 2012-09-30 11:47:58 <denisx> yeah, and I see that sometimes it handles several blocks in a second
640 2012-09-30 11:48:02 <denisx> so it is capable
641 2012-09-30 11:48:14 <denisx> but then for a long time nothing but the handler still has 100%
642 2012-09-30 11:48:18 lggr has joined
643 2012-09-30 11:48:26 <sipa> well, some blocks are significantly easier than others
644 2012-09-30 11:48:47 <sipa> and if it's really just spending CPU on signature verification, msghand is where i would expect to see it
645 2012-09-30 11:49:34 <denisx> it has now handled ca. 250 blocks in 20 minutes
646 2012-09-30 11:49:49 <denisx> but this is on an dual atom
647 2012-09-30 11:50:05 <sipa> on an atom that's not too surprising, i guess
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654 2012-09-30 12:03:45 <denisx> sipa: I updated the ultraprune code and now the load is between 60 and 90%
655 2012-09-30 12:03:50 <denisx> this sounds more reasonable
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672 2012-09-30 12:29:35 <erlehmann> oh hai
673 2012-09-30 12:29:42 <erlehmann> some familier names here
674 2012-09-30 12:29:46 <erlehmann> familiar
675 2012-09-30 12:30:21 lggr has joined
676 2012-09-30 12:31:30 <erlehmann> so i recently met someone introducing himself as travis goodspeed and he told me he and dan kaminsky had put a len sassaman tribute and a picture of ben bernanke into the blockchain
677 2012-09-30 12:31:49 Arch_Coldfire has joined
678 2012-09-30 12:32:19 <erlehmann> what exactly prevents someone from inserting operating thetan, harry potter books or child pornography?
679 2012-09-30 12:34:28 <sipa> cost?
680 2012-09-30 12:35:13 <erlehmann> sipa, so what is the cost for inserting a payload?
681 2012-09-30 12:36:40 <sipa> depends how
682 2012-09-30 12:37:10 <sipa> but all except using the coinbase to store a hash i would consider abusive
683 2012-09-30 12:37:11 <erlehmann> if i understood that crazy guy, a payload is a public key, possibly in base58
684 2012-09-30 12:37:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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686 2012-09-30 12:38:00 <sipa> everything more than a few bytes will need non-standard transactions
687 2012-09-30 12:38:27 <sipa> which are only accepted by some miners, and for a price
688 2012-09-30 12:39:08 <erlehmann> non-standard means what?
689 2012-09-30 12:39:28 <sipa> when you broadcast a transaction, you hope it will be picked up by a miner to be placed in the blockchain
690 2012-09-30 12:39:50 <sipa> however, each miner uses some policy to decide what is accepted and what isn't
691 2012-09-30 12:40:06 <sipa> most use more or less standard software, which has a default policy built-in
692 2012-09-30 12:40:53 <sipa> this policy defines a few classes of standard transactions, and anything that doesn't fit those, will not get accepted
693 2012-09-30 12:41:21 <sipa> but that doesn't mean those are invalid; if some other miner does accept them, they have to follow
694 2012-09-30 12:41:59 lggr has joined
695 2012-09-30 12:42:29 <erlehmann> intredasting
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697 2012-09-30 12:43:19 <erlehmann> sipa, so what else was inserted into the blockchain? any overview?
698 2012-09-30 12:43:36 <sipa> the blockchain is a chain of blocks, each referring to one previous block
699 2012-09-30 12:44:07 <sipa> inside a block, there is a header (with a timestamp, a nonce, a version number, the id of the previous block) and a list of transactions
700 2012-09-30 12:44:29 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
701 2012-09-30 12:45:36 <sipa> a transaction consists of inputs and outputs; inputs refer to previous transactions' outputs + a cryptographic signature; outputs consist of an amount + a public key
702 2012-09-30 12:45:52 <erlehmann> sipa, so can i order the list of transactions?
703 2012-09-30 12:46:15 <erlehmann> a public key of what length?
704 2012-09-30 12:46:25 <sipa> yes, that's the basic purpose of the blockchain: creating a globally-agreed-upon ordered list of transactions
705 2012-09-30 12:46:37 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
706 2012-09-30 12:46:38 <sipa> in practice it's a hash of a public key; 20 bytes
707 2012-09-30 12:47:30 <erlehmann> so that is the payload packet size i assume
708 2012-09-30 12:47:43 <sipa> iirc dan used data encoded inside the public key to store his tribute
709 2012-09-30 12:48:04 <sipa> but there are other ways
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712 2012-09-30 12:49:05 <sipa> oh, one more thing: the first transaction in a block is special; it has no real inputs,but instead a "coinbase"
713 2012-09-30 12:49:28 <erlehmann> sipa, other more efficient ways that allow for a bigger payload?
714 2012-09-30 12:49:38 <sipa> this coinbase is used as extra nonce for block generation (its contents is effectively ignored), and can contain up to 100 bytes of arbitrary data
715 2012-09-30 12:50:18 <erlehmann> if i calculate correctly, the payload of sassaman and bernanke is ~1500 bytes, right?
716 2012-09-30 12:50:31 <sipa> note that creating a block results in a payout of 50 BTC, so the cost for creating one tends to be close to 50 BTC as well
717 2012-09-30 12:51:04 <sipa> BUT the trick is that you can have multiple items of data, hash them together (via a merkle tree) and just put that root hash in the coinbase
718 2012-09-30 12:51:30 <sipa> that way you can prove (by giving the path of hashes along the tree) that a the block was created in a way that commits to that piece of data
719 2012-09-30 12:52:16 <sipa> and that's the only way of storing data in the blockchain that i consider not abusive, as it supports arbitrary amounts of data without bloating anything
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722 2012-09-30 12:53:02 <erlehmann> sipa, is there any measure to âabusiveâ that the software recognizes?
723 2012-09-30 12:53:15 <sipa> that's the problem - no
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725 2012-09-30 12:53:29 <sipa> you can always try to make arbitrary data look like financial transactions
726 2012-09-30 12:53:55 <sipa> why are you so interested in this?
727 2012-09-30 12:54:13 <erlehmann> hacking mindset
728 2012-09-30 12:54:39 boupitch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
729 2012-09-30 12:55:11 <sipa> anyway, just to be clear: the blockchain is not intended as a communication medium
730 2012-09-30 12:55:37 <erlehmann> also, if you can put arbitrary files into the blockchain â¦, child pornography for example would make a point regarding bad laws.
731 2012-09-30 12:56:17 <erlehmann> and even the church of happyology could not remove operating thetan from the block chain if someone desired to save it there
732 2012-09-30 12:56:19 <erlehmann> sure that is abusive
733 2012-09-30 12:56:36 <erlehmann> but i am interested in the moral and legal implications
734 2012-09-30 12:56:47 <sipa> i don't think that in the future most nodes will store the blockchain at all
735 2012-09-30 12:57:04 <sipa> some obviously will have to
736 2012-09-30 12:57:14 <erlehmann> travis told me that even today most don't check everything
737 2012-09-30 12:57:59 <sipa> full nodes check everything, except signatures in very old blocks
738 2012-09-30 12:58:24 <sipa> but they do check for double-spending, proof-of-work, and 100s of other validity rules
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740 2012-09-30 13:00:19 <erlehmann> sipa, so what do you think bitcoin will converge to?
741 2012-09-30 13:00:38 <sipa> how do you mean?
742 2012-09-30 13:00:57 <sipa> i assume 3.14159265358979 isn't a good answer here?
743 2012-09-30 13:01:19 <erlehmann> well, some architecture involving supernodes that store the blockchain?
744 2012-09-30 13:01:39 <sipa> archive nodes, validation nodes, SPV nodes
745 2012-09-30 13:01:59 <jgarzik> sipa: speaking of abusive... I was looking at pchMessageStart code, and after looking, concluded that we do not punish nodes for flooding garbage
746 2012-09-30 13:02:02 <sipa> full nodes right now do archiving + validation, but in my opinion those can be separate
747 2012-09-30 13:02:31 <jgarzik> sipa: ie. no pchMessageStart boundaries at all, much less a message checksum
748 2012-09-30 13:02:59 <sipa> really?
749 2012-09-30 13:03:23 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah it just loops to the next message (or next chunk of buffer bytes)
750 2012-09-30 13:03:35 <sipa> just tried: nc localhost 8333 </dev/urandom
751 2012-09-30 13:03:39 <sipa> no disconnect indeed
752 2012-09-30 13:03:41 lggr has joined
753 2012-09-30 13:04:12 <jgarzik> sipa: valid message + failing checksum == "continue;"
754 2012-09-30 13:04:22 <sipa> looks like it should trigger DoS()
755 2012-09-30 13:04:26 <jgarzik> yep
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762 2012-09-30 13:10:42 <sipa> denisx: load between 60% and 90%... but is it faster?
763 2012-09-30 13:10:48 <denisx> sipa: no
764 2012-09-30 13:10:55 <sipa> well that's a deterioration
765 2012-09-30 13:11:10 <sipa> cpu usage should be as high as possible
766 2012-09-30 13:11:14 <denisx> that was only at the beginning, now it is also always at 100%
767 2012-09-30 13:11:18 <sipa> ok
768 2012-09-30 13:11:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: packet corruption should trigger DoS()?
769 2012-09-30 13:11:41 <Luke-Jr> or maybe DoS with < 100 makes sense
770 2012-09-30 13:11:58 <sipa> meh, packet corruption should be handled at the network layer
771 2012-09-30 13:12:08 <Luke-Jr> sure, but in practice it isn't.
772 2012-09-30 13:12:11 <sipa> but if it's an issue, DoS < 100 is certainly an option
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778 2012-09-30 13:23:09 <jgarzik> sipa: Unfortunately TCP's 16-bit checksum really sucks ;p
779 2012-09-30 13:23:37 <jgarzik> Seems like two cases will trigger this: malicious construction or software bug
780 2012-09-30 13:24:06 <jgarzik> either way, I do not see why we should continue to keep a connection open, wasting CPU to process garbage
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784 2012-09-30 13:24:45 <jgarzik> Network layer (even, alas 16 bit csum) protects you 99.5% of the time or so
785 2012-09-30 13:25:08 <jgarzik> network layer will cut you off though ;p
786 2012-09-30 13:25:10 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: well
787 2012-09-30 13:25:17 <Diablo-D3> you CAN offload ip checksumming to hardware
788 2012-09-30 13:25:38 <Diablo-D3> but you'd be better off just making your own streaming protocol on top of udp
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791 2012-09-30 13:30:47 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: a lot of networking seems to ignore checksums
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798 2012-09-30 13:53:24 <kjj_> ok, so... if I want to add something to someone else's pull request, am I better off making my own pull request against master, or do I fork his fork and make the pull request against his branch, then have him figure out how to merge it before his stuff gets merged?
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800 2012-09-30 13:54:25 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: fork master
801 2012-09-30 13:54:27 <sipa> unfortunately, github does not allow forking from two different forks with the same name
802 2012-09-30 13:54:32 <Luke-Jr> or ask him to do it
803 2012-09-30 13:54:48 <sipa> so unless the other person renamed their fork to not be called "bitcoin", there's no way to do so
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805 2012-09-30 13:55:06 <kjj_> ok. this is on issue 1884, the warnings to re-backup after encryption. I figure there should be one in the RPC call too
806 2012-09-30 13:55:38 <sipa> it should certainly be documenten, but we shouldn't patronize RPC users, imho
807 2012-09-30 13:56:01 <kjj_> oh, it won't
808 2012-09-30 13:57:10 <kjj_> I'm just adding: The keypool has been flushed, you need to make a new backup.
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810 2012-09-30 13:58:37 <Luke-Jr> speaking of that
811 2012-09-30 13:58:51 <Luke-Jr> does the GUI pullreq prompt to make a backup immediately, or just suggest it? O.o
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814 2012-09-30 13:59:25 <kjj_> just suggest. it changes the message box text only
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816 2012-09-30 14:02:20 <kjj_> hmm. if you call the backupwallet RPC command with a relative path, what is it relative to?
817 2012-09-30 14:02:50 <sipa> relative to the cwd of the bitcoind server
818 2012-09-30 14:03:15 <kjj_> is that likely to be the datadir?
819 2012-09-30 14:03:29 <sipa> don't think so
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821 2012-09-30 14:06:09 <kjj_> would it be a good idea if the encryption triggers (UI and RPC) automatically called BackupWallet with GetDataDir() / "encryptionbackup.dat" ?
822 2012-09-30 14:06:17 <wumpus> relative paths with backupwallet should be avoided
823 2012-09-30 14:06:37 <sipa> kjj_: certainly not for RPC; imho it's a user's responsability to make backups
824 2012-09-30 14:06:55 <wumpus> not really... that'd defeat the encryption by writing an unencrypted copy
825 2012-09-30 14:07:19 <kjj_> no, after the encryption do the backup
826 2012-09-30 14:07:26 <wumpus> good if you make a backup, but please do it on an usb stick or something
827 2012-09-30 14:07:47 <wumpus> oh, right, but in that case it doesn't protect against encryption mess-up at all
828 2012-09-30 14:08:34 <kjj_> looks like the default error handling in the encryption routine is "die" so if there is an encryption mess-up, it should never get there
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830 2012-09-30 14:12:03 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: it doesn't make (much) sense to backup to the same device as the original, and users might get the wrong idea if we did it
831 2012-09-30 14:12:37 <Luke-Jr> as far as relative paths, I almost wonder if backupwallet should just refuse to work with them
832 2012-09-30 14:12:57 <kjj_> drive crash isn't the only failure mode.
833 2012-09-30 14:14:07 <tcatm_> Luke-Jr: Nah, one might start bitcoind in a specific directory and use backupwallet with relative paths just fine. Does backupwallet return the real path where the backup was written?
834 2012-09-30 14:16:43 <kjj_> well... here's the funny thing, "bitcoind backupwallet ./backup.dat" does NOT do what you expect it to do. how about we translate the path before sending the command?
835 2012-09-30 14:17:19 <kjj_> people writing their own RPC interfaces will just have to deal with it in their own way
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838 2012-09-30 14:18:20 <tcatm_> How would you translate the path when you are on a remote system?
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840 2012-09-30 14:19:03 <kjj_> ugh. stuff the wallet into a BLOB in the RPC response?
841 2012-09-30 14:19:19 <tcatm_> That would solve the relative path problem, too.
842 2012-09-30 14:19:40 <tcatm_> However, that would require at least SSL
843 2012-09-30 14:20:01 <kjj_> only if the wallet isn't encrypted
844 2012-09-30 14:20:42 <kjj_> and you could just refuse to perform the command unless at least one of those security measures is active
845 2012-09-30 14:20:43 <tcatm_> Even if it's encrypted you wouldn't want to send it across a network just like that as only the private keys are encrypted.
846 2012-09-30 14:21:04 <kjj_> meh. only the private keys are secret
847 2012-09-30 14:21:59 <tcatm_> Great, care to tell me all your bitcoin public keys in your wallet including their labels?
848 2012-09-30 14:22:32 <kjj_> no thank you, but if you manage to sniff them out of my network or ISP, I won't cry about it.
849 2012-09-30 14:24:18 <tcatm_> I heard of similar attacks happening on exchanges. If an attacker can't get the wallet, he might just as well be interested in modifying a backup so in case it gets restored (and backups should be restored regularly just to make sure they work) one of his public addresses is used instead.
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854 2012-09-30 14:27:28 <kjj_> gmm. I think you are arguing for signing the backup file...
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857 2012-09-30 14:28:44 <tcatm_> If you sign it you could just as well encrypt it, too.
858 2012-09-30 14:28:54 <tcatm_> But yes, signatures on backups are a good idea.
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924 2012-09-30 16:34:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: fwiw, I've analyized vlad's (person on that encryption keypool warning thread), and I'm reasonably confident that his loss is unrelated to keypool behavior.
925 2012-09-30 16:34:48 <gmaxwell> we analyized vlad's wallets.
926 2012-09-30 16:34:59 <gmaxwell> er s/we/I've/
927 2012-09-30 16:35:03 <phantomcircuit> have a vhd vm image
928 2012-09-30 16:35:05 <phantomcircuit> mount with xmount
929 2012-09-30 16:35:20 <phantomcircuit> file in mounted directory has identical checksum to original image
930 2012-09-30 16:35:21 <phantomcircuit> wat
931 2012-09-30 16:36:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: in one wallet most of his funds left via a transaction which he still has the change for. In the other it left in a one output transaction. Both backups were also already encrypted.
932 2012-09-30 16:37:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, is the keypool encrypted?
933 2012-09-30 16:37:34 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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936 2012-09-30 16:38:23 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the keypool is just a list of pubkeys
937 2012-09-30 16:38:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
938 2012-09-30 16:38:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit: the corresponding private keys are stored like any other
939 2012-09-30 16:38:48 <sipa> in case of an encrypted wallet, encrypted
940 2012-09-30 16:38:51 egecko has joined
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943 2012-09-30 16:39:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: what we do when you encrypt is mark all the keypool keys as used and then refill the keypool. So there is a possiblity that you backup + encrypt + do txn (without another backup) and lose all your coins.
944 2012-09-30 16:39:57 <gmaxwell> if you instead encrypt+backup+do txn you're fine.
945 2012-09-30 16:40:50 <phantomcircuit> oh
946 2012-09-30 16:40:51 <phantomcircuit> hmm
947 2012-09-30 16:41:00 <gmaxwell> Someone commenting on the issue for this thought it hit him, but I think either he got robbed or has just forgotten that he sent his coins someplace else.
948 2012-09-30 16:41:23 <gmaxwell> (his encryption key was utterly trivial; so I don't think the wallet encryption actually afforded him any protection)
949 2012-09-30 16:41:26 egecko has joined
950 2012-09-30 16:41:28 <phantomcircuit> crap this is all screwed up
951 2012-09-30 16:41:38 <phantomcircuit> Error: Can't have a partition outside the disk!
952 2012-09-30 16:41:39 <phantomcircuit> :/
953 2012-09-30 16:42:21 lggr has joined
954 2012-09-30 16:42:26 <kjj_> gmaxwell: it didn't make any sense to me either. I kinda think he is remembering the sequence of events wrong
955 2012-09-30 16:43:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I was like 65% sure one person I tried to help recover a "corrupt" wallet was actually trying to crack it instead, at one point
956 2012-09-30 16:43:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ie, he hit the "crash on wrong passphrase" bug we used to have and thought he'd hit a gold mine if only it didn't crash
957 2012-09-30 16:47:31 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1017000
958 2012-09-30 16:47:32 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1017000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2864140.507811 , is 0.357149888515 BTC per day and 0.0148812453548 BTC per hour.
959 2012-09-30 16:47:54 PK has joined
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961 2012-09-30 16:50:39 <Luke-Jr> apparently bitcointalk decided it's my turn to deal with the trolls⦠just started notifying me about posts today XD
962 2012-09-30 16:51:01 xisalty_ is now known as xisalty
963 2012-09-30 16:51:21 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ignore: *
964 2012-09-30 16:51:48 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: âº
965 2012-09-30 16:52:09 <phantomcircuit> the forums are completely and totally useless at this point
966 2012-09-30 16:52:20 <phantomcircuit> it's trolls and con men
967 2012-09-30 16:53:35 lggr has joined
968 2012-09-30 16:54:31 Zarutian has joined
969 2012-09-30 16:54:50 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I kinda wish BitcoinScene hadn't died off
970 2012-09-30 16:54:59 guruvan- has joined
971 2012-09-30 16:56:27 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yeah but
972 2012-09-30 16:56:36 <Diablo-D3> why did all the trolls attack the single and only legitimate company of bitcoin
973 2012-09-30 16:56:58 <Luke-Jr> of course, Diablo-D3 is half the problem with the forums, backing up the trolls with mod powerz
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979 2012-09-30 17:09:44 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, that's simple they're often the same person
980 2012-09-30 17:09:51 <phantomcircuit> hint most of the trolls have like ten accounts
981 2012-09-30 17:10:15 <phantomcircuit> and who you think is posting on behalf of certain accounts isn't who it really is
982 2012-09-30 17:10:31 <phantomcircuit> posts by zhoutong could be either tihan seale or zhoutong
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985 2012-09-30 17:15:55 <Diablo-D3> well
986 2012-09-30 17:16:02 <Diablo-D3> I dont think eskimobob and atlas are the same guy
987 2012-09-30 17:17:12 JZavala has joined
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992 2012-09-30 17:21:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, no but atlas has several accounts
993 2012-09-30 17:21:44 <phantomcircuit> as does phinwhatever
994 2012-09-30 17:22:03 <Diablo-D3> whos puppet?
995 2012-09-30 17:22:07 <Diablo-D3> I know hes obviously a puppet
996 2012-09-30 17:22:10 <Diablo-D3> but I dont know who he really is
997 2012-09-30 17:23:19 _sense has joined
998 2012-09-30 17:23:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, no idea
999 2012-09-30 17:23:47 <phantomcircuit> i would make a map but i honestly dont care anymore
1000 2012-09-30 17:24:10 <Diablo-D3> well, trolls instigated nefario locking my glbse account
1001 2012-09-30 17:24:22 <Diablo-D3> which nefario finally unlocked after a month after realizing I didnt do anything
1002 2012-09-30 17:24:35 lggr has joined
1003 2012-09-30 17:28:19 <jaxtr> thats nuts Diablo-D3
1004 2012-09-30 17:28:45 <jaxtr> DMC is a trusted brand name
1005 2012-09-30 17:29:07 <Diablo-D3> ...
1006 2012-09-30 17:29:42 da2ce7 has joined
1007 2012-09-30 17:30:02 <jaxtr> how can one of the most trust listings be locked
1008 2012-09-30 17:30:03 <jaxtr> makes no sense
1009 2012-09-30 17:30:23 <Diablo-D3> you're trolling, right?
1010 2012-09-30 17:30:37 <jaxtr> ?
1011 2012-09-30 17:30:55 <Luke-Jr> jaxtr: apparnetly even Diablo-D3 doesn't have a good impression of DMC >_<
1012 2012-09-30 17:31:03 <Diablo-D3> the only thing trusted about DMC is its mine.
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1016 2012-09-30 17:32:18 <jaxtr> Diablo-D3: i mean youve been around since the start and have contributed a lot to bitcoin. if someone with such high rep can be locked for no reason that's crazy...
1017 2012-09-30 17:33:15 lggr has joined
1018 2012-09-30 17:33:48 <Diablo-D3> jaxtr: yeah, and nefario has been around forever too
1019 2012-09-30 17:33:53 <Diablo-D3> so Im not sure what went wrong
1020 2012-09-30 17:35:33 <galambo__> id imagine that the trust ratings are about to be shut down because theymos doesn't want to be seen as promoting/endorsing any frauds
1021 2012-09-30 17:36:28 BlackPrapor has joined
1022 2012-09-30 17:37:16 <pjorrit> there's trust ratings?
1023 2012-09-30 17:37:34 <galambo__> never mind i dont understand what you're talking about
1024 2012-09-30 17:38:17 <galambo__> that atlas guy should be banned again though imo
1025 2012-09-30 17:38:59 <Diablo-D3> galambo__: okay, so, Im the great almighty Diablo, right? Ive been here since the dawn of Bitcoin
1026 2012-09-30 17:39:15 <Diablo-D3> I have a company named Diablo Mining Company, its listed on GLBSE
1027 2012-09-30 17:39:29 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1028 2012-09-30 17:39:44 <Diablo-D3> nefario locked it because trolls said I was stealing from my own company
1029 2012-09-30 17:40:27 ThomasV has joined
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1031 2012-09-30 17:42:00 <jaxtr> hmm trolls spreading FUD
1032 2012-09-30 17:42:10 <Diablo-D3> yup
1033 2012-09-30 17:42:28 <Joric> pfft absurd you can't steal from your own company, you own it for gods sake
1034 2012-09-30 17:42:44 <sipa> i disagree
1035 2012-09-30 17:42:58 <phantomcircuit> Joric, that's hilariously wrong
1036 2012-09-30 17:43:04 <Diablo-D3> Joric: no, shareholders own it
1037 2012-09-30 17:43:08 <Diablo-D3> even if Im founder and ceo
1038 2012-09-30 17:43:16 <Diablo-D3> now, Im also a shareholder, but thats besides the point
1039 2012-09-30 17:43:47 <phantomcircuit> Joric, go ahead and treat the company bank account as your personal account
1040 2012-09-30 17:43:59 <phantomcircuit> the company will no longer be a company and will instead simply become your alias
1041 2012-09-30 17:44:31 <galambo__> "alter ego"
1042 2012-09-30 17:45:25 <galambo__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil
1043 2012-09-30 17:45:39 <Diablo-D3> the worst part is, they purchased a lot of shares cheaply and then drove the price down to below a tenth of its value
1044 2012-09-30 17:46:16 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: and you can't pull that if you have shareholders
1045 2012-09-30 17:46:42 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, if you have shareholders then it's just embezzlement
1046 2012-09-30 17:46:57 <Luke-Jr> "just"
1047 2012-09-30 17:47:15 Davincij15 has joined
1048 2012-09-30 17:47:38 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, s/just/simply/
1049 2012-09-30 17:47:50 <Diablo-D3> although I fucked their shit and bought almost half the shares out there back
1050 2012-09-30 17:48:06 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how much money those trolls lost trying to fight the market
1051 2012-09-30 17:48:24 mammique has joined
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1053 2012-09-30 17:50:47 <ThomasV> which company are you guys talking about?
1054 2012-09-30 17:51:26 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1055 2012-09-30 17:51:28 <Diablo-D3> ThomasV: mine, DMC
1056 2012-09-30 17:51:48 <Joric> Delorian Motor Company?
1057 2012-09-30 17:51:56 <Joric> cool, dude
1058 2012-09-30 17:52:07 <Diablo-D3> Joric: you know better
1059 2012-09-30 17:52:15 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1060 2012-09-30 17:52:25 <ThomasV> is it an officialy registered company?
1061 2012-09-30 17:52:34 lggr has joined
1062 2012-09-30 17:53:33 <Diablo-D3> ThomasV: no, I was saving that when a) we could afford it, b) we actually had physical assets to protect
1063 2012-09-30 17:53:55 <Diablo-D3> nefario has pushed that back awhile =/
1064 2012-09-30 17:54:36 <ThomasV> ok, so in that case I guess you can't steal from it
1065 2012-09-30 17:54:47 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 270000
1066 2012-09-30 17:54:50 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 270000 Khps, given current difficulty of 2864140.507811 , is 0.0948185544729 BTC per day and 0.00395077310304 BTC per hour.
1067 2012-09-30 17:55:41 <Diablo-D3> ThomasV: yes, everything DMC has is _on_ glbse
1068 2012-09-30 17:55:51 <ThomasV> oh
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1074 2012-09-30 18:10:10 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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1081 2012-09-30 18:29:08 <Luke-Jr> ThomasV: DMC has investors.
1082 2012-09-30 18:33:10 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1083 2012-09-30 18:33:27 <kjj_> is that a 1:10 split on the chart?
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1105 2012-09-30 19:25:32 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1106 2012-09-30 19:25:37 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. <nickname> tell RainbowDashh fix your quit message. And by "fix", I mean pick one that isn't incredibly annoying)
1107 2012-09-30 19:25:56 * Luke-Jr hits the "stop emailing me" link
1108 2012-09-30 19:26:17 <sipa> haha
1109 2012-09-30 19:27:10 lggr has joined
1110 2012-09-30 19:27:39 <Luke-Jr> amazingly, these trolls seem worse than the ones I get :|
1111 2012-09-30 19:29:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: whats this where?
1112 2012-09-30 19:29:12 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: what trolls are you referring to?
1113 2012-09-30 19:29:21 <Luke-Jr> the Bitcoin Foundation thread
1114 2012-09-30 19:29:25 <Eliel> :D
1115 2012-09-30 19:29:31 <gmaxwell> oh. yea.
1116 2012-09-30 19:29:44 * jgarzik gave up on that thread
1117 2012-09-30 19:29:57 <jgarzik> troll energy is always greater that one's own
1118 2012-09-30 19:29:59 <Eliel> I read it to the last page two days ago.
1119 2012-09-30 19:30:11 <jgarzik> if we could harness the energy of trolls, forget about nuke or solar power
1120 2012-09-30 19:30:16 <sipa> i really should he resisted replying to Atlas :S
1121 2012-09-30 19:30:16 <Eliel> then I decided it's most likely not going to contain anything worth reading
1122 2012-09-30 19:30:20 <Luke-Jr> I just started getting emails for it this morning for some reason
1123 2012-09-30 19:30:32 <Eliel> and haven't looked at it since
1124 2012-09-30 19:30:33 Davincij15 has joined
1125 2012-09-30 19:30:35 <sipa> jgarzik: it's like herding lolcats :)
1126 2012-09-30 19:30:38 <Luke-Jr> lol
1127 2012-09-30 19:30:39 <gmaxwell> Everyone notice that since ngzhang announced his avalon stuff, BFL and 'basic' people have simply increased their performance numbers to match
1128 2012-09-30 19:30:41 <jgarzik> hehehe
1129 2012-09-30 19:31:08 <gmaxwell> Because you know.. when you're engineering something, changing the speed is as simple as turning the knob on the easy-bake-asic-oven to 11.
1130 2012-09-30 19:31:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'll build you one that goes to 12
1131 2012-09-30 19:31:33 <Eliel> gmaxwell: my guess, the margins are wide enough to allow for that.
1132 2012-09-30 19:31:36 <jgarzik> gotta love Chinese competition
1133 2012-09-30 19:31:45 <jgarzik> it would be the height of hilarity if these were -all- scams
1134 2012-09-30 19:31:45 <Eliel> to add more chips if needed to match the competitor
1135 2012-09-30 19:31:54 <sipa> people are really assuming they'll soon have 100s of GH/s each
1136 2012-09-30 19:31:54 <jgarzik> and thus the "competition" was purely virtual
1137 2012-09-30 19:32:00 <gmaxwell> Eliel: sure, but er, adding chips requires a board redesign most likely.
1138 2012-09-30 19:32:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: board redesign is probably a lot cheaper than ASIC design?
1139 2012-09-30 19:32:29 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we'll know that if in three weeks they're all advertising 100PH/s boxes.
1140 2012-09-30 19:32:37 <jgarzik> <grin>
1141 2012-09-30 19:32:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh sure, absolutely. It's not impossible butâ still a little boggling.
1142 2012-09-30 19:32:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actually, both bASIC and BFL claim they are just "updating" specs they underestimated initially
1143 2012-09-30 19:32:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: you mean you haven't ordered the EH/s boxes yet?
1144 2012-09-30 19:33:14 <jgarzik> Full disclosure: in the interests of having one of _something_, I sent bitcoins to buy one ASIC product from each
1145 2012-09-30 19:33:15 <Diablo-D3> ooh ooh
1146 2012-09-30 19:33:23 * jgarzik needs to hook up w/ [Tycho] and buy one of those
1147 2012-09-30 19:33:24 <Diablo-D3> Im going to advertise a 1EH box
1148 2012-09-30 19:33:31 <Diablo-D3> available 2 years from now
1149 2012-09-30 19:33:45 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: It is good marketing. The tape company "Exabyte" was thinking ahead, when it formed with that name ;-)
1150 2012-09-30 19:33:47 <Eliel> jgarzik: yes, I agree, it'd be hilarious if all of them turn out to be scams :P
1151 2012-09-30 19:33:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: considering BFL's history, and the drastic performance gains, it does make sense they'd be very conservative with estimates
1152 2012-09-30 19:34:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1153 2012-09-30 19:34:25 <sipa> jgarzik: you'll see they'll all just have some 5W ARM chip in it that does several kH/s each :)
1154 2012-09-30 19:34:30 <Eliel> jgarzik: even considering that I'd lose what I invested if so.
1155 2012-09-30 19:34:33 <Luke-Jr> (history = under expected specs for FPGA Singles, and adapting FPGA MiniRigs card count to match quoted specs)
1156 2012-09-30 19:34:35 * jgarzik is a bit leery of the [Tycho] method of buying ASICs though...
1157 2012-09-30 19:34:38 <jgarzik> where you buy a "bond"
1158 2012-09-30 19:34:46 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: thats preorders
1159 2012-09-30 19:34:50 <jgarzik> yes
1160 2012-09-30 19:34:53 <Diablo-D3> you can buy them straight out when he has them
1161 2012-09-30 19:35:05 <jgarzik> then why not just straight preorders?
1162 2012-09-30 19:35:12 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1163 2012-09-30 19:35:14 <jgarzik> direct payment
1164 2012-09-30 19:35:35 <jgarzik> signing up to an exchange, just to preorder is strange
1165 2012-09-30 19:36:16 <jgarzik> sure, the others might be scams, but does one really need a trading account just to preorder hardware?
1166 2012-09-30 19:36:20 <Luke-Jr> unless he's trying to sell the exchange?
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1168 2012-09-30 19:36:24 <jgarzik> with all the validation that entails
1169 2012-09-30 19:36:26 <kjj_> he probably did that so that he didn't have to bother with setting up a store
1170 2012-09-30 19:36:33 <jgarzik> indeed
1171 2012-09-30 19:36:34 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: deepbit is invested in that exchange, btw
1172 2012-09-30 19:36:56 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: thank you Captain Obvious
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1174 2012-09-30 19:39:08 <Diablo-D3> its not obvious at all
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1189 2012-09-30 20:16:10 <apekee> Hey what's goin on? Anyone know if there's Bitcoin markets similar to options markets?
1190 2012-09-30 20:16:57 <kjj_> like MPEX?
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1194 2012-09-30 20:26:22 <apekee> have u used this?
1195 2012-09-30 20:26:53 <kjj_> not the options part, no. I've used the exchange to buy stocks and bonds though
1196 2012-09-30 20:28:12 <apekee> hows that worked out for u?
1197 2012-09-30 20:29:17 <kjj_> works just fine for me.
1198 2012-09-30 20:29:31 <kjj_> I think that bitcoin-otc might have options too
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1200 2012-09-30 20:30:15 <apekee> u kno if there are ones where i could use virtual currency to practice
1201 2012-09-30 20:30:21 <apekee> thanks for your help btw
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1205 2012-09-30 20:32:24 <kjj_> I have no idea about testing. there may be general trade simulators that could be used for testing algorithms
1206 2012-09-30 20:33:47 <kjj_> I know Gox has test servers for their APIs, but they don't do securities, just bitcoin <-> fiat
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1215 2012-09-30 20:35:40 <kjj_> I would look into OTC first
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1217 2012-09-30 20:37:33 <dusty_> hi all
1218 2012-09-30 20:38:49 <dusty_> anyone has 5 minute to spare to help me on a problem evaluating a bip16 script?
1219 2012-09-30 20:39:56 <dusty_> It's about tx B3C19D78B4953B694717A47D9852F8EA1CCD4CF93A45BA2E43A0F97D7CDB2655 of testnet3 network, block 394
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1223 2012-09-30 20:42:13 <dusty_> the bip16 script there is "OP_1 02ca2a810ab17249b6033a038de563983881b4069270183f3c0aba945653e44216 OP_1 OP_CHECKMULTISIG"
1224 2012-09-30 20:43:01 <dusty_> and I can't understand how it can execute correctly, so I was thinking: is that bip16 validation must be done only after a certain date?
1225 2012-09-30 20:43:21 <dusty_> (even in testnet3?)
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1228 2012-09-30 20:45:25 <kjj_> OP_CHECKMULTISIG pops one more element than it should
1229 2012-09-30 20:45:59 <lianj> dusty_: % grep -i bip16 -r src
1230 2012-09-30 20:46:00 <lianj> src/main.cpp: int64 nBIP16SwitchTime = 1333238400;
1231 2012-09-30 20:46:06 <dusty_> kjj_: yes, for that reason the script can't be validated, and the transaction should be invalid
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1233 2012-09-30 20:46:28 <dusty_> lianj: ok, so while that's a script, it should not be evaluated?
1234 2012-09-30 20:46:58 <lianj> its not the full script
1235 2012-09-30 20:47:28 <dusty_> lianj: what do you mean?
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1240 2012-09-30 20:55:11 <lianj> dusty_: oh, the inner script is really "1 02ca2a810ab17249b6033a038de563983881b4069270183f3c0aba945653e44216 1 OP_CHECKMULTISIG" so its a broken checkmultisig
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1243 2012-09-30 20:55:38 <kjj_> lianj: right, but it was redeemed.
1244 2012-09-30 20:55:42 <lianj> but its from 2011-02-03, so ignore it. the nodes at that time didnt eval or know about the inner script
1245 2012-09-30 20:56:11 <lianj> kjj_: was accepted due to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0016#Backwards_Compatibility
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1247 2012-09-30 20:56:38 <kjj_> bah. I just assumed that blockexplorer.com/testnet/ was showing testnet 3
1248 2012-09-30 20:56:45 <sipa> kjj_: it should be
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1250 2012-09-30 20:57:08 <kjj_> I thought it was just recently reset
1251 2012-09-30 20:58:01 <lianj> kjj_: i have this one for the mainnet as an exception for example. because its the only invalid inner script before the switch over date
1252 2012-09-30 20:59:09 <dusty_> someone should explain me how is possible that a chain reset happened in 2012 (testnet) has blocks dated 2011...
1253 2012-09-30 20:59:24 <dusty_> (I meant testnet3, not testnet, sorry)
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1268 2012-09-30 21:36:03 <sipa> wow, i didn't check the wallet that held my forum donation address for months
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1270 2012-09-30 21:36:16 <sipa> suddenly it has almost 32 BTC :s
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1276 2012-09-30 21:43:32 <dusty_> sipa: :)
1277 2012-09-30 21:44:01 <dusty_> kjj, liank: thanks for the help, I implemented the skipping of the validation
1278 2012-09-30 21:44:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nice
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1326 2012-09-30 22:43:50 <jgarzik> occasionally I wish there was a no-account mode
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1328 2012-09-30 22:44:26 <jgarzik> IMO the account system sometimes craps up the wallet, and gets in the way
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1330 2012-09-30 22:44:55 <kjj_> they are easy enough to ignore.
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1332 2012-09-30 22:45:08 <kjj_> what do you mean by crapping up the wallet?
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1334 2012-09-30 22:51:09 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol
1335 2012-09-30 22:51:14 <phantomcircuit> always use default account only
1336 2012-09-30 22:51:15 <phantomcircuit> :|
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1339 2012-09-30 22:53:14 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: still creates more data than a theoretical account-free design
1340 2012-09-30 22:53:50 <jgarzik> and for picky quoting reasons, the "default account" is harder to use than it should be
1341 2012-09-30 22:54:13 <jgarzik> default account should be an arbitrary name, like git's "master"
1342 2012-09-30 22:54:33 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah i know
1343 2012-09-30 22:55:22 <jgarzik> git's "master" is just a convention, hardcoded in the absolute bare minimum number of a places. A default policy, but one you are free to delete, rename or ignore as you choose.
1344 2012-09-30 22:55:36 <jgarzik> None of this hardcoded empty-string-is-a-special-case stuff all over the place
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