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  20 2012-10-03 00:30:53 <jrmithdobbs> so, we have sha3 now
  21 2012-10-03 00:31:23 <jrmithdobbs> and of course they picked one of the ones i haven't had a chance to even look at. was so hoping it'd be blake or skein. I like those. ;p
  22 2012-10-03 00:34:04 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: don't look at keccak code, your eyes will bleed
  23 2012-10-03 00:34:39 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya that's why i liked blake and skein, they were simple, elegant, and easy as fuck to implement (with good implementations already availabe)
  24 2012-10-03 00:34:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  25 2012-10-03 00:36:55 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: is it at least unencumbered IP-law-wise?
  26 2012-10-03 00:37:04 <jrmithdobbs> or'd they fuck us on that too
  27 2012-10-03 00:37:20 <gmaxwell> meh, dunno about the code; but it's quite simple.
  28 2012-10-03 00:37:36 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: dunno
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  30 2012-10-03 00:37:49 <jrmithdobbs> i'm pulling up the paper now, looking for their sample impl
  31 2012-10-03 00:37:56 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: presumably the IP is OK, otherwise there would be holy hell raised I think
  32 2012-10-03 00:38:10 <jgarzik> but one doesn't bet the farm on presumption ;p
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  35 2012-10-03 00:38:51 <gmaxwell> all applicants had to agree to a patent release at least.
  36 2012-10-03 00:38:52 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: their website points to a _third party_ implementation that is readable and reviewable, because their version is not
  37 2012-10-03 00:38:59 <jrmithdobbs> ya, only ones i remember coming from places that there were pretty good guarantees were blake (salsa based and we all know djb's feeling on the topic) and skein (because same for schneier)
  38 2012-10-03 00:39:20 <gmaxwell> (and it was a requirement that it be unencumbered; so the opposition would have called out any that were known to be)
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  40 2012-10-03 00:43:04 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: where? I'm not seeing it
  41 2012-10-03 00:43:18 <jrmithdobbs> oh nm just scrolled far enough to see it
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  43 2012-10-03 00:44:18 <jrmithdobbs> ugh, not even a hash or https link to that download either, how thoughtful
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  54 2012-10-03 00:56:47 <Eliel> here's an idea for p2p mining protocol I got a while ago. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115036.0
  55 2012-10-03 00:56:59 xisalty_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  56 2012-10-03 00:57:14 <Eliel> very much just the core idea, no implementation details in it. I'd be interested in comments.
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  67 2012-10-03 01:15:29 <amiller> i've been thinking about a proof-of-work variation that would allow someone to safely pay for outsourced mining
  68 2012-10-03 01:16:33 <amiller> the requirements would be a) the client submits work, but the provider should not learn about the contents, otherwise he could discriminate against transactions
  69 2012-10-03 01:17:27 <amiller> b) the provider should not be able to know when a block is a winner, otherwise the provider would be able to cheat the client by selectively discard winning blocks
  70 2012-10-03 01:18:09 <gmaxwell> you can do (a) with getblocktemplate; luke (IIRC) came up with how to do (b) a long time ago.
  71 2012-10-03 01:18:31 <gmaxwell> You change the pow so it's somthing like 32 bits from the direct pow then the rest from H(secret||pow)
  72 2012-10-03 01:18:34 <amiller> i think a) is already a property of the bitcoin pow scheme because you mine on a header but don't necessarily reveal the preimage of hte header
  73 2012-10-03 01:18:36 <Eliel> yes, although (b) requires protocol change in the blockchain
  74 2012-10-03 01:18:47 <amiller> gmaxwell, ah Luke-Jr already came up with that
  75 2012-10-03 01:19:51 <amiller> i gues i left out c) which is that the client should be able to request 'near-winners' like p2pool in order to know how much to pay the provider
  76 2012-10-03 01:20:01 <gmaxwell> yea, block withholding resistance... I am not too excited about it because it only works with centeralized providers.
  77 2012-10-03 01:20:21 <gmaxwell> yea what I described gets you that, at least for definitions of near which are compatible with the scheme.
  78 2012-10-03 01:20:33 <amiller> so the client should be able to specify how many bits come from the direct pow vs the H(secret||pow)
  79 2012-10-03 01:20:47 <Eliel> amiller: however, if the provider wasn't mining just for the client but for themselves too? that'd make withholding directly expensive.
  80 2012-10-03 01:21:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  81 2012-10-03 01:21:30 <Eliel> amiller: as in, only mining 50% of the block reward for the client, other 50% for themselves.
  82 2012-10-03 01:21:45 <Eliel> or other variations
  83 2012-10-03 01:22:14 <Eliel> amiller: do read my proposal above, it relates to the comments I just made :)
  84 2012-10-03 01:24:22 lggr has joined
  85 2012-10-03 01:24:25 <amiller> Eliel, ah yeah i forgot to include why your proposal made me think of that again
  86 2012-10-03 01:24:40 <amiller> basically even in a cooperative scheme like that, there's still maybe benefit in reducing needed trust
  87 2012-10-03 01:25:57 <Eliel> the incentive for a withholding attack is already very weak. the system I proposed makes it even weaker.
  88 2012-10-03 01:26:14 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I don't understand you scheme. Why wouldn't I just spin up a 3000 node botnet and accept people working for me and never pay back?
  89 2012-10-03 01:27:15 <Eliel> gmaxwell: because, once those people find other nodes that actually do reciprocate, you'll stop getting anything.
  90 2012-10-03 01:27:35 Evilmax has joined
  91 2012-10-03 01:27:41 <Eliel> gmaxwell: that being said, there might be marginal utility in running such a botnet.
  92 2012-10-03 01:27:46 <Eliel> for the person running it
  93 2012-10-03 01:27:49 <amiller> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=29353920 this is Luke-Jr's bitcoin-dev post on defeating block witholding
  94 2012-10-03 01:28:21 <Eliel> gmaxwell: the optimistic thing is something that only needs doing if you don't already have enough mining partners.
  95 2012-10-03 01:29:09 <Eliel> a reputation system also sounds like a possibility, although it could be unnecessary complexity.
  96 2012-10-03 01:29:41 <D34TH> jgarzik, is there an rpccommand for pynode to add a peer?
  97 2012-10-03 01:30:36 <Eliel> gmaxwell: Also, the amount of work you do when optimistically offering to work with someone can be arbitrarily small.
  98 2012-10-03 01:30:51 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  99 2012-10-03 01:31:58 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og35U0d6WKY
 100 2012-10-03 01:32:03 <jgarzik> D34TH: sadly no -- it's not that advanced yet.  Just a single outgoing peer.
 101 2012-10-03 01:32:11 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 102 2012-10-03 01:32:18 <jgarzik> D34TH: amiller added code that will permit multiple peers, but it hasn't been switched on yet
 103 2012-10-03 01:33:17 <D34TH> how would i go about flipping that switch?
 104 2012-10-03 01:33:38 antix_ has joined
 105 2012-10-03 01:33:44 <Eliel> gmaxwell: the percentage of work you have to "waste" on non-reciprocating nodes to figure out they're not reciprocating is well below the fees of the biggest pools.
 106 2012-10-03 01:33:44 <D34TH> i see PeerManager
 107 2012-10-03 01:34:11 lggr has joined
 108 2012-10-03 01:34:38 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112404.msg1240769#msg1240769
 109 2012-10-03 01:34:39 <jgarzik> <pirateat40> GPUMAX will be down on 10/08 at 12:00 AM CST.  The system may or may not come back up depending on the new owners.
 110 2012-10-03 01:35:05 <jgarzik> D34TH: c = peermgr.add(settings['host'], settings['port'])
 111 2012-10-03 01:35:08 quijibo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 112 2012-10-03 01:35:08 <jgarzik> D34TH: c.start()
 113 2012-10-03 01:35:16 <jgarzik> D34TH: that how you'd do it in code
 114 2012-10-03 01:35:23 <Eliel> gmaxwell: consider what one share in a regular pool paying with PPS-like payment system is worth. You can test partners with a fraction of that.
 115 2012-10-03 01:35:32 <D34TH> but, its threads.append(c)
 116 2012-10-03 01:35:41 <jgarzik> D34TH: that's only at startup
 117 2012-10-03 01:35:48 <jgarzik> D34TH: do what I say, not what you read ;-)
 118 2012-10-03 01:35:54 <D34TH> okey dokey
 119 2012-10-03 01:36:08 <jgarzik> baby bedtime, bbi ~1 hour
 120 2012-10-03 01:36:55 <amiller> gmaxwell, Eliel, do you think there's a way then of achieving the opposite goal, by making it explicitly difficult to outsource mining
 121 2012-10-03 01:37:56 <Eliel> amiller: that doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
 122 2012-10-03 01:38:02 <Eliel> even if possible
 123 2012-10-03 01:38:10 <gmaxwell> make the pow be the hash of the signature of the block with the key it pays to
 124 2012-10-03 01:38:22 <gmaxwell> (if someone mines the block they can take the funds)
 125 2012-10-03 01:39:12 <gmaxwell> or make the POW require memory hard lookups in the utxo set. (not quite the same; eliminates outsourcing for the purpose of the outsourcee not wanting to deal with the cost of validation)
 126 2012-10-03 01:39:37 <amiller> what about requiring that the block contains a signed transaction that's only valid in that block
 127 2012-10-03 01:40:04 <Eliel> amiller: you could get around that by realtime communication.
 128 2012-10-03 01:40:17 <amiller> if someone builds on your block, the transaction doesn't take any of your money, but if someone mines on a different block at the same height then they can include your transaction for a bonus
 129 2012-10-03 01:40:37 quijibo has joined
 130 2012-10-03 01:40:38 <Eliel> oh, that kind of thinking
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 132 2012-10-03 01:42:03 <Eliel> I get the feeling that'd potentially screw up the mining process completely.
 133 2012-10-03 01:42:08 <Eliel> as in, the motives
 134 2012-10-03 01:42:18 <amiller> probably
 135 2012-10-03 01:42:25 <Eliel> people would have the incentive to not build on your block but to fork it
 136 2012-10-03 01:42:49 lggr has joined
 137 2012-10-03 01:43:02 <amiller> if they attempt to fork it then they have a higher chance of being forked themselves, so while it's messy i wouldn't rule it out completely
 138 2012-10-03 01:43:13 <Eliel> might lead to complete systemic failure.
 139 2012-10-03 01:43:15 <amiller> most importantly is it brings 'encourage decentralization' to a first-level design goal
 140 2012-10-03 01:43:41 <Eliel> I think my proposal does that well enough :)
 141 2012-10-03 01:44:12 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 142 2012-10-03 01:44:19 <Eliel> it needs some more fleshing out before it can really be seriously considered but I think the core idea has a lot of promise.
 143 2012-10-03 01:44:21 <gmaxwell> Eliel: no, your proposal doesn't do anything to stop selfish idiots from being selfish idiots.
 144 2012-10-03 01:44:50 <gmaxwell> "Oh someone wants to pay me 120% PPS to mine blocks of god knows what for them? Fantastic, where do I sign up?!"
 145 2012-10-03 01:45:10 <Eliel> gmaxwell: I don't think you actually understand what I'm proposing.
 146 2012-10-03 01:45:19 <Eliel> because that makes no sense at all
 147 2012-10-03 01:45:36 <gmaxwell> Perhaps, or is it that you don't know what amiller was talking about wrt encouraging decenteralization?
 148 2012-10-03 01:45:55 <gmaxwell> how does what you're proposing prevent greedy miners from signing up for 120% PPS offers?
 149 2012-10-03 01:46:25 <Eliel> humm... that it doesn't.
 150 2012-10-03 01:47:19 <amiller> Eliel, i think it's interesting you used tit for tat, which is notable for being an evolutionarily stable strategy (ESS) in prisoners dilemma, i don't really know how that works but maybe you aren't far away from having a statement along those lines?
 151 2012-10-03 01:47:25 <gmaxwell> Now, as far as it as an alternative to p2pool. I'm not sure it scales so well, if it's tit for tat then e.g. a network of 1GH miners would currently have to do a ton of pairing. e.g. more than they could accomplish if the pairing difficulty was 1.
 152 2012-10-03 01:48:01 <gmaxwell> ('have' in order to get varience compariable to p2pools)
 153 2012-10-03 01:48:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 154 2012-10-03 01:48:43 <gmaxwell> and if the pairing difficulty is too high, then they're interupting their mining constantly to update the coinbase.
 155 2012-10-03 01:48:46 <Eliel> yes, can't really have direct connection to everyone.
 156 2012-10-03 01:48:49 <gmaxwell> er too low.
 157 2012-10-03 01:49:29 <Eliel> the p2p structure would need some careful designing
 158 2012-10-03 01:50:58 <amiller> i don't think there's a scalable way to evaluate who is participating and who is skipping out
 159 2012-10-03 01:51:23 <Eliel> amiller: yes there is, each individual miner does not need to cooperate with the whole network.
 160 2012-10-03 01:51:36 <Eliel> that's one of the points of this system I proposed.
 161 2012-10-03 01:51:38 lggr has joined
 162 2012-10-03 01:53:46 <gmaxwell> Eliel: yes, but if they don't participate with a lot you don't get much varience reduction.
 163 2012-10-03 01:54:24 <amiller> in other news, i have absolutely no idea how to make an io-efficient dynamic merkle tree :/
 164 2012-10-03 01:55:31 <Eliel> if the network isn't based on direct connections but instead routes the shares through neighbors, that improves the situation for figuring out who might want to reciprocate.
 165 2012-10-03 01:56:02 <Eliel> you just solo mine until you've observed the shares reaching you and seen who are reciprocating with each other.
 166 2012-10-03 01:57:43 kreal has quit ()
 167 2012-10-03 01:57:58 <gmaxwell> In any case, go spec it out enough to figure out the variance reduction vs network traffic.
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 170 2012-10-03 02:01:23 <Eliel> ah, true, that's one thing that p2pool manages more efficiently, it doesn't need to shuttle coinbase transactions around.
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 213 2012-10-03 03:24:23 <jgarzik> The potential for abuse of a GPUMAX-like scenario is clear
 214 2012-10-03 03:24:49 lggr has joined
 215 2012-10-03 03:24:50 <jgarzik> But it is also reasonable for someone to want to pay extra, to get a non-standard transaction mined on mainnet
 216 2012-10-03 03:25:19 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr is the only outlet for that right now, and that is more altruism/activism than profit motive I think
 217 2012-10-03 03:25:32 <jgarzik> it is disappointing there is not more of a market
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 221 2012-10-03 03:32:08 <gmaxwell> you don't need to gpumax to get that.
 222 2012-10-03 03:33:07 balrog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 223 2012-10-03 03:33:17 <gmaxwell> besides gpumax has been paying premiums of 20 to 50 BTC per block, other >100% ask no questions have paid premiums of 5-8 BTC/block.
 224 2012-10-03 03:33:29 lggr has joined
 225 2012-10-03 03:33:46 <gmaxwell> pretty sure if you drop your nonstandard txn with a 5 BTC fee you'll find it getting included right quick.
 226 2012-10-03 03:34:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: who will take it... and how to find them?
 227 2012-10-03 03:34:51 <jgarzik> it certainly won't get relayed
 228 2012-10-03 03:35:09 <gmaxwell> post it on the forum. :P
 229 2012-10-03 03:35:14 <jgarzik> heh
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 238 2012-10-03 03:54:29 <jgarzik> hum
 239 2012-10-03 03:54:38 <jgarzik> where to find big endian test machines in the year 2012?
 240 2012-10-03 03:55:14 <jgarzik> SF compile farm is long dead, and qemu is lame
 241 2012-10-03 03:55:22 <maaku> ps3?
 242 2012-10-03 03:55:26 <maaku> ppc mac
 243 2012-10-03 03:55:47 random_cat has joined
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 245 2012-10-03 03:59:21 * jgarzik goes to look in the garage for a possible boat anchor^H^H^HPowerPC G5
 246 2012-10-03 04:02:06 lggr has joined
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 249 2012-10-03 04:09:47 Lolcust has joined
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 251 2012-10-03 04:11:59 <asa1024> I once owned a 150 pound shortwave radio transmitter with vacuum tubes
 252 2012-10-03 04:12:05 <asa1024> now THAT was a nice boat anchor
 253 2012-10-03 04:14:51 Lachesis has joined
 254 2012-10-03 04:15:03 <asa1024> I'm surprised someone sold it to an 18 year old non ham operator without checking to make sure what I was going to do with it
 255 2012-10-03 04:15:24 <asa1024> I wanted to do some pirate broadcasting but the more I read into it the more I thought best not to do it.
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 283 2012-10-03 05:25:11 <SomeoneWeird> how long are btc addresses?
 284 2012-10-03 05:25:26 <SomeoneWeird> how long *can they be
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 302 2012-10-03 06:08:59 <weex> SomeoneWeird: haven't seen one over 33 chars but if we're talking database just make it a varchar(64)...visually give it 35-40 chars and you should be ok
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 307 2012-10-03 06:17:24 <jgarzik> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address
 308 2012-10-03 06:17:31 <jgarzik> huh, I thought the max was 35, not 34
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 316 2012-10-03 06:29:44 <SomeoneWeird> yeah theres a few conflicting sources jgarzik
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 365 2012-10-03 07:54:10 <edcba> 2) A few suggestions of how to improve bitcoin:
 366 2012-10-03 07:54:11 <edcba>  a. Develop a hash function that generates a hash function;
 367 2012-10-03 07:54:17 <edcba> is that a good idea ?
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 370 2012-10-03 07:56:06 <edcba> different hash function according to merkle hash
 371 2012-10-03 07:57:55 <edcba> only problem is to know if that construct is really secure
 372 2012-10-03 07:59:01 <edcba> anyway i shouldn't read suggestions from ppl suggesting also to introduce third parties in bitcoin
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 376 2012-10-03 08:12:32 <sipa> why do you want a function to generate hash functions?
 377 2012-10-03 08:12:46 <sipa> i'm sure humans are better at it than random functions
 378 2012-10-03 08:13:02 <edcba> to advantage cpu than gpu ?
 379 2012-10-03 08:13:23 <sipa> you like botnets?
 380 2012-10-03 08:13:30 <edcba> yes
 381 2012-10-03 08:13:50 <edcba> you really think botnets don't have gamers in it ? :)
 382 2012-10-03 08:14:06 <sipa> sure, they do
 383 2012-10-03 08:14:20 <edcba> you do like government controlled currencies ?
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 385 2012-10-03 08:14:28 <sipa> no
 386 2012-10-03 08:14:56 <edcba> see you don't like easy paralleliasble mining :)
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 388 2012-10-03 08:15:40 <edcba> but anyway i doubt doing some wacky hash generating hash fn is the way to do it
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 390 2012-10-03 08:15:54 <sipa> yes it's a separate issue
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 392 2012-10-03 08:16:25 <sipa> there certainly may have been other functions that could have been chosen for the proof-of-work, which may or may not have advantages over the current one
 393 2012-10-03 08:16:47 <edcba> sha3 !
 394 2012-10-03 08:16:57 <edcba> didn't really look at it yet
 395 2012-10-03 08:17:16 <sipa> sha3 certainly doesn't have advantages over sha2 for us now
 396 2012-10-03 08:17:42 <edcba> and it's faster in hardware
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 398 2012-10-03 08:18:07 <sipa> that said, changing that now requires a hard fork, and that will not happen unless a very serious attack against SHA256 is found (or there are reasons why such an attack would be viable in the future)
 399 2012-10-03 08:18:36 <sipa> and having a function to generate functions (what does that even mean?) sounds completely wacko to me, sorry :)
 400 2012-10-03 08:18:47 <kinlo> I wonder if a hard fork is manageable anyway
 401 2012-10-03 08:19:21 <edcba> yes if everyone agrees...
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 403 2012-10-03 08:20:33 <sipa> we had a hell of a time even agreeing about something trivial like BIP16/BIP17
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 518 2012-10-03 12:16:09 <edcba> someone know how does timekoin work ?
 519 2012-10-03 12:16:26 <edcba> it claims no highend computer to work ?
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 524 2012-10-03 12:18:45 <edcba> technical pdf has too much ".php" in it
 525 2012-10-03 12:18:49 <edcba> must be shit
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 625 2012-10-03 14:49:27 <gavinandresen> sipa: what's the URL for your stats on client versions?
 626 2012-10-03 14:51:54 <Eliel> sipa: function to generate functions ... sounds like perfectly normal coding style in Haskell :P
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 650 2012-10-03 15:10:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
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 652 2012-10-03 15:10:45 <helo> would a hash-algo-changing hard fork cause the hashrate to be within reach of many supercomputers?
 653 2012-10-03 15:10:54 <helo> at least initially
 654 2012-10-03 15:11:21 <helo> would there be any way to avoid extreme 51% attack vulnerability?
 655 2012-10-03 15:11:40 <epscy> helo: i think that probably depends on the amount of warning involved and how many existing miners convert
 656 2012-10-03 15:11:53 <epscy> amount of time i meant
 657 2012-10-03 15:12:28 <helo> seems like it would allow equal time for an attack to be prepared
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 659 2012-10-03 15:12:50 <epscy> hmmm, yeah i suppose you are right
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 667 2012-10-03 15:17:11 <helo> hmm... its generally more profitable to play along than attack, so i guess the legit miners would become more formidable with more lead time
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 671 2012-10-03 15:22:50 <epscy> i think if enough warning is given and enough honest miners convert ahead of time then the economics of an attack would be similar to what they are now
 672 2012-10-03 15:23:25 <epscy> though i suppose you could time it to coincide with a large transaction which you then reverse
 673 2012-10-03 15:23:36 <Luke-Jr> helo: there's no reason to change proof-of-work
 674 2012-10-03 15:23:59 <epscy> Luke-Jr: i think he is talking about the hash algo
 675 2012-10-03 15:24:11 <Luke-Jr> epscy: yes, that's the proof-of-work
 676 2012-10-03 15:24:15 <Eliel> epscy: I agree with that. Also, it'd be possible to do a staggered change. As in first require the new algo used for 1 in 1000 blocks, then slowly move towards requiring all blocks to be mined with the new algo.
 677 2012-10-03 15:24:18 <epscy> like if we wanted to switch from sha-2 to sha-3
 678 2012-10-03 15:24:31 <epscy> Eliel: i was wondering about that
 679 2012-10-03 15:24:43 <epscy> could you run two alogs in parrallel?
 680 2012-10-03 15:24:54 <maaku> sure, but why would you?
 681 2012-10-03 15:25:04 <maaku> it'd be a hard-fork anyway
 682 2012-10-03 15:25:11 <epscy> Luke-Jr: to me proof-of-work makes me think you are talking about switching to proof-of-stake
 683 2012-10-03 15:25:25 <epscy> maaku: to prevent the hashrate from falling too much
 684 2012-10-03 15:25:40 <epscy> make it easy for both new and old miners to use the new hardfork
 685 2012-10-03 15:26:22 <Eliel> even old miners would likely be more receptive to upgrade if it gives them plenty of time to prepare for mining with the new algo.
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 688 2012-10-03 15:26:53 <Eliel> without sharp reduction in profitability.
 689 2012-10-03 15:26:56 <epscy> Eliel: if they have to throw out their current hardware then i wouldn't bet on it
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 691 2012-10-03 15:27:17 <maaku> Keccak is 3x faster than SHA-2a. Except for ASICs I think everyone would upgrade immediately
 692 2012-10-03 15:27:19 <Eliel> epscy: depends on the timescale.
 693 2012-10-03 15:27:54 <epscy> Eliel: yeah, but asics are a sunk cost, can't easily be reused for anything
 694 2012-10-03 15:28:10 <Eliel> but the thing is, the old miners aren't really needed to make the switch happen. So, if they happened to all be on asics, too bad.
 695 2012-10-03 15:28:27 <epscy> and i think the last thing you want if you are contemplating a hard fork, is to leave a load of hashpower behind that will carry on the old chain
 696 2012-10-03 15:28:44 <epscy> just going to create confusion
 697 2012-10-03 15:29:02 <Eliel> epscy: that's the reason you can only change the hash algo in an emergency sort of situation.
 698 2012-10-03 15:29:09 <epscy> maaku: i expect asics to the majority of miners within a couple of years
 699 2012-10-03 15:30:17 <Eliel> the old algo needs to be seriously lacking in some respect for the switch to happen despite the installed base for the old algo.
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 703 2012-10-03 15:33:00 <epscy> well someone said recently that if sha-2 had an md5 style collision problem then it wouldn't actually be a problem for bitcoin
 704 2012-10-03 15:33:08 <epscy> but it would be a sign of weakness
 705 2012-10-03 15:33:21 <epscy> do you think the algo should be changed in that situation?
 706 2012-10-03 15:33:31 <Luke-Jr> maaku: for proof-of-work, faster is bad :p
 707 2012-10-03 15:33:42 <maaku> ?
 708 2012-10-03 15:34:00 <Luke-Jr> maybe it would make sense to use it for txids and such, but I don't know how big a performance impact it would have
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 710 2012-10-03 15:34:18 <Luke-Jr> maaku: the entire point of the difficulty is to ensure proof-of-work is difficult
 711 2012-10-03 15:35:09 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: it's not quite that simple. Faster also means that it's faster to verify the blocks.
 712 2012-10-03 15:35:20 <maaku> yes, so if a switch were made it would be compensated for at the next difficulty adjustment
 713 2012-10-03 15:35:36 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: not significantly, for the POW
 714 2012-10-03 15:36:14 <helo> it being faster would give miners an incentive to upgrade :)
 715 2012-10-03 15:36:48 <helo> well scratch that... asic sha2 is going to be faster than anything-else sha3
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 717 2012-10-03 15:37:11 <Eliel> the difficulty could be coded to be modified by a certain multiplier automatically at the switch to mostly account for the change.
 718 2012-10-03 15:37:21 <edcba> for proof of work faster is not bad
 719 2012-10-03 15:37:30 <Eliel> although, it'd be tough to estimate what that multiplier should be
 720 2012-10-03 15:37:31 <helo> the difficulty is already coded to automatically adjust :)
 721 2012-10-03 15:37:33 <edcba> as long it doesn't allow bruteforce attacks
 722 2012-10-03 15:37:34 <epscy> helo: i suspect if we got to the point where we want to change the algo, the miners would have asic sha-3 ready at the switch
 723 2012-10-03 15:38:10 <Eliel> helo: well, the only case you want to avoid is to have difficulty way too big. That adjusts way too slowly :)
 724 2012-10-03 15:39:24 <epscy> does anyone know in which direction the difficulty adjustment is bounded?
 725 2012-10-03 15:39:28 <edcba> the problem is not having a big diff
 726 2012-10-03 15:39:40 <edcba> it's just the diff adjustment isn't continuous
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 728 2012-10-03 15:40:14 * helo keeps mixing up edcba and epscy
 729 2012-10-03 15:40:18 <edcba> happens every 2 weeks instead of every block
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 733 2012-10-03 15:43:46 <maaku> epscy: 4x on either side, min 1, no maximum
 734 2012-10-03 15:43:47 <Eliel> edcba: no, it happens every 2016 blocks
 735 2012-10-03 15:44:18 <Eliel> which ends up multiplied heavily if the difficulty is too high
 736 2012-10-03 15:44:39 <Eliel> ... not the number of blocks, but the 2 weeks
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 823 2012-10-03 18:03:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell sipa: ACK troll. P2P: Do not request blocks from peers with fewer blocks than us - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1834
 824 2012-10-03 18:05:19 <edcba> hmm
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 828 2012-10-03 18:14:27 <sipa> jgarzik: i'l go over the pullreq list this evening
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 855 2012-10-03 19:15:20 <jgarzik> heh, there is a justmoon pkg in Fedora
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 900 2012-10-03 20:41:30 <jose___> Hi every one. I am developing a web app and I have a question. If I have just one address in an account and I do a sendfrom that account do the bitcoins that get sent come from that address or can they come from any of the server addresses. The documentation says that 'sends amount from account's balance' but does it affect only addresses in that account?
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 902 2012-10-03 20:42:01 <TD> no, any keys can be used
 903 2012-10-03 20:43:14 <jose___> thanks. how to know the real balance of an address using only json-rpc calls?
 904 2012-10-03 20:43:35 <sipa> using 0.7's raw interface you can
 905 2012-10-03 20:43:40 <sipa> but not easily
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 908 2012-10-03 20:43:54 <jose___> looking at transactions right?
 909 2012-10-03 20:44:35 <sipa> the wallet abstraction provided by the satoshi client doesn't really work per-address, but per-wallet really
 910 2012-10-03 20:44:52 <TD> yeah. why do you want to know the balance of an address?
 911 2012-10-03 20:44:58 <sipa> what is missing, imho, is multi-wallet support
 912 2012-10-03 20:45:09 <sipa> not per-address control
 913 2012-10-03 20:46:23 <jose___> it seems to me that balances are not too reliable. besides when ever a transaction is made the client has to see if it is a valid transsactions so it must be calculating the real balance of an address at verification time. why is that not exposed to the json-rpc intarface is intriguing to me.
 914 2012-10-03 20:46:46 <TD> what does your web app do and what language is it written in?
 915 2012-10-03 20:46:51 <TD> there may be better ways to achieve what you want
 916 2012-10-03 20:47:02 <sipa> a wallet consists of coins, not of balances
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 918 2012-10-03 20:47:07 <gmaxwell> jose___: because 'balance of an address' is not really a sensible concept with how bitcoin is intended to be used. Addresses should be used only one time.
 919 2012-10-03 20:47:21 <sipa> transaxtions send create and consume spexific coins
 920 2012-10-03 20:47:47 <jose___> java + i2p + acconted file pulling service that is intended to get data to be processed and charged for.
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 922 2012-10-03 20:47:52 <gmaxwell> Transactions*  transaxtions, I imagine, play smooth monetary jazz.
 923 2012-10-03 20:48:17 <sipa> yeah
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 925 2012-10-03 20:48:43 <sipa> also, 3.2" phone touchscreen keyboards aren't very accurate
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 928 2012-10-03 20:50:52 <jose___> does not the verification of a transaction has to calculate that balance any ways? to see if the transaction is valid?
 929 2012-10-03 20:51:13 <sipa> no
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 931 2012-10-03 20:51:34 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't internally keep any balance
 932 2012-10-03 20:51:49 <sipa> transactions create and consume coins
 933 2012-10-03 20:52:08 <sipa> and every coin is always consumed entirely or not at all
 934 2012-10-03 20:52:08 <jose___> so can you in theory expend more than what you have received in an address?
 935 2012-10-03 20:52:13 <sipa> no
 936 2012-10-03 20:52:45 <sipa> someone with a real keyboard explain this please :)
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 940 2012-10-03 20:53:22 <gmaxwell> jose___: do you have change in your physical wallet?  Bitcoin is like that. Your physical wallet doesn't have a 'balance'. .. and yet you can't spend more than is in it. When you spend you take coins out and spend them. When you have no coins left you are unable to spend any. It's not that you're 'prevented' there is just nothing to spend.
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 942 2012-10-03 20:54:03 <TD> jose___: ok. you may wish to look at bitcoinj
 943 2012-10-03 20:54:05 <gmaxwell> When someone pays bitcoin to you, you receieve a transaction— later when you spend you take one or more of your previously recieved transactions and redeem them.
 944 2012-10-03 20:54:24 <TD> jose___: it provides APIs that you may find easier to work with for your use cases. in particular, it allows you to have multiple independent wallets
 945 2012-10-03 20:54:32 <TD> as you're using java already
 946 2012-10-03 20:55:15 <jose___> right. but i can look in my wallet and see how much it is in it. so how can i do that with an address since that is the one keeping my money. and i mean that trough the json-rpc interface.
 947 2012-10-03 20:55:52 <TD> there's no way to do it with JSON-RPC that i know of (don't know enough about the raw tx interface to say)
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 949 2012-10-03 20:56:00 <gmaxwell> jose___: addresses are not accounts. They're just identifiers for keying material to release funds.
 950 2012-10-03 20:56:17 <gmaxwell> TD: you could listunspent but you will _very_ rapidly screw yourself if you're trying to use that instead of a wallet.
 951 2012-10-03 20:56:29 <gmaxwell> (E.g. the first time you get change back after a spend you'll be totally confused)
 952 2012-10-03 20:57:17 <TD> btw, is there a JSON-RPC for getting a raw tx given its hash? sort of "getdata" but not artificially hobbled due to dos concerns
 953 2012-10-03 20:57:28 <gmaxwell> TD: getrawtransaction
 954 2012-10-03 20:58:13 <gmaxwell> At least so long as you're not running ultraprune.
 955 2012-10-03 20:58:23 <TD> ah
 956 2012-10-03 20:58:25 <TD> ultra prune breaks that RPC?
 957 2012-10-03 20:58:29 <gmaxwell> (ultraprune can't return random historical ones)
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 959 2012-10-03 20:58:41 <jose___> ok same different question. can i in theory choose (i know json-rpc interface does not  allow me) what address the bitcoins are going to be sent from?
 960 2012-10-03 20:58:44 <TD> do you mean, if pruning was actually being done, or with the actual branch as it exists now?
 961 2012-10-03 20:58:49 <gmaxwell> I think the RPC works, it'll just return not found on ones tht aren't yours.
 962 2012-10-03 20:58:54 <gmaxwell> TD: as it exists now.
 963 2012-10-03 20:59:07 <gmaxwell> No index by txn id.
 964 2012-10-03 20:59:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: it will actually work for nonpruned ones
 965 2012-10-03 20:59:20 <sipa> but very slow
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 967 2012-10-03 20:59:25 <TD> jose___: yes, sure. if you craft your own transactions
 968 2012-10-03 20:59:51 <gmaxwell> jose___: although the concept of sent 'from' is poorly formed; transactions don't have a from. They have a prior to.
 969 2012-10-03 20:59:53 <sipa> s/nonpruned/nonspent/
 970 2012-10-03 21:00:09 <sipa> *one or more
 971 2012-10-03 21:00:12 <TD> sipa: actually i just want to check the utxo set. e.g. given a pledge for an assurance contract, you want to find out how much is being pledged. so you must be able to look up the output given the outpoint
 972 2012-10-03 21:00:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: I hadn't noticed it being slow.
 973 2012-10-03 21:00:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: why is it slow?
 974 2012-10-03 21:00:41 <TD> sipa: so obviously it can be done fast. only question is …. what is the best way to get that data
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 976 2012-10-03 21:01:57 <sipa> TD: i suppose some future rpc to inspect the utxo set
 977 2012-10-03 21:02:03 <TD> ok
 978 2012-10-03 21:02:16 <jose___> right the addresses in my account. tks. i am starting to hate accounts. they seem insecure to me since they dont reflect what happens in the network. which is waht really metters from the point of bitcoins. i will see how i manage. thanks a lot for the help in understanding better.
 979 2012-10-03 21:02:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: it knows the height of every nonspent tx
 980 2012-10-03 21:02:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: so it scans the entire block at that height
 981 2012-10-03 21:03:03 <gmaxwell> ah, okay also explains why I hadn't noticed.. not _that_ slow for one-off lookups.
 982 2012-10-03 21:03:42 <TD> jose___: yeah, exactly. accounts are purely a way to think about the contents of your wallet but the protocol has no concept of it. it's not clear to me why you need such precise control over tx form though
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 987 2012-10-03 21:07:25 <jgarzik> TD: in the context of pybond, I already proposed a gettxout RPC
 988 2012-10-03 21:07:52 <jgarzik> pybond needs to lookup unspent outputs, too
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 990 2012-10-03 21:08:40 <sipa> i'll such an rpc to ultraprune
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 992 2012-10-03 21:08:49 <sipa> should be trvial
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 994 2012-10-03 21:09:04 <TD> jgarzik: yes. you have to be careful of races of course.
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 996 2012-10-03 21:10:01 <sipa> it should return the active block chan tip hash
 997 2012-10-03 21:10:11 <sipa> i suppose
 998 2012-10-03 21:11:11 <TD> yes
 999 2012-10-03 21:11:17 <TD> probably
1000 2012-10-03 21:12:54 <jose__> thanks TD and gmaxwell for your help. my web client quitted. To answer TD: I seems I am a bit paranoid and dont trust accounts because they are not a reflection of what happens in the network. I seems to me that the json-rpc should do that and accounts not just accounts. but who am i to say if not writing code right? thanks a lot i will see how to use accounts.
1001 2012-10-03 21:12:59 <jgarzik> pybond context: "I need to know if <this> output is unspent"
1002 2012-10-03 21:13:08 <jgarzik> so it's really a boolean return value, from pybond's perspective
1003 2012-10-03 21:13:17 <jgarzik> or maybe
1004 2012-10-03 21:13:18 <TD> jgarzik: yes. the issue is what happens if the answer changes the moment the RPC returns
1005 2012-10-03 21:13:24 <jgarzik> get(txid,n) == pubkey
1006 2012-10-03 21:13:31 <jgarzik> or none, for unknown/spent
1007 2012-10-03 21:13:42 <jgarzik> TD: always a risk
1008 2012-10-03 21:14:10 <amiller> why not include the block number with the request, then the result should be deterministic
1009 2012-10-03 21:14:19 <amiller> it might be unanswerable if the utxo-set has moved on
1010 2012-10-03 21:14:26 <sipa> jgarzik: avaible other data: height/depth, coinbase or not
1011 2012-10-03 21:14:27 <jgarzik> TD: obviously you do not base monetary release on that answer, for example
1012 2012-10-03 21:14:41 <sipa> amiller: exactly
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1014 2012-10-03 21:14:45 <jgarzik> sipa: I doubt it will be harmful to simply return all that information...
1015 2012-10-03 21:15:13 <sipa> jgarzik: oh, and amount!
1016 2012-10-03 21:15:19 <jgarzik> sipa: just make sure we won't eliminate any of that in the future, otherwise returning it becomes a maintenance burden
1017 2012-10-03 21:15:26 <sipa> indeed
1018 2012-10-03 21:15:31 <jgarzik> outside of that... return it all :)
1019 2012-10-03 21:15:49 <amiller> any info you could request becomes deterministic if a block number is provided as context
1020 2012-10-03 21:16:02 <sipa> i consider the height there to be optional
1021 2012-10-03 21:16:20 <sipa> all other data is required for block validation
1022 2012-10-03 21:16:47 <sipa> and height is not optional for coinbase less than 100 blocks deep
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1025 2012-10-03 21:16:59 <jgarzik> amiller: you are still racing, as a TX may be spent even if not in a block
1026 2012-10-03 21:17:07 <jgarzik> race is simply unavoidable at that level
1027 2012-10-03 21:17:41 <amiller> jgarzik, well there's no way to provide a block number (i guess i mean block hash) as context if you're talking about unconfirmed txes
1028 2012-10-03 21:17:59 <jgarzik> -ENOTCONCERNED :)
1029 2012-10-03 21:18:06 <jgarzik> you might be racing with an off-network transaction, even
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1031 2012-10-03 21:18:16 <jgarzik> it is what it is
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1045 2012-10-03 21:38:45 <TD> BlueMatt: ping
1046 2012-10-03 21:40:16 <BlueMatt> TD: pong
1047 2012-10-03 21:40:22 <TD> n/m, i figured it out
1048 2012-10-03 21:40:26 <BlueMatt> ok
1049 2012-10-03 21:40:31 <TD> i was going to query the if (newArraySize == 1) length++ thing
1050 2012-10-03 21:41:07 <jgarzik> TD: We need to figure out if this is what we want for SPV mode...  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1795
1051 2012-10-03 21:41:54 <TD> it requires some careful thinking to see why this code makes sense
1052 2012-10-03 21:41:57 <BlueMatt> I believe the branch that impl that for bitcoinj needs updated...but I think the satoshi one should be pretty good
1053 2012-10-03 21:42:02 <TD> but it does
1054 2012-10-03 21:42:10 <BlueMatt> TD: any clearer ways to write it jump out?
1055 2012-10-03 21:42:25 <TD> not really. just a comment explaining what it's all about. but i can add that
1056 2012-10-03 21:42:31 <BlueMatt> thanks
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1058 2012-10-03 21:44:02 <TD> jgarzik: ?
1059 2012-10-03 21:44:08 <TD> jgarzik: it is. it's based on the design i thrashed out with matt
1060 2012-10-03 21:44:17 <TD> he's implemented it on the bcj side and it seems to work
1061 2012-10-03 21:44:36 <TD> i'm hoping gavinandresen will prioritize reviewing and merging it, along with ultra prune.
1062 2012-10-03 21:44:45 <BlueMatt> the bcj side is out-of-date (and reasonably so iirc)
1063 2012-10-03 21:44:51 <TD> ok
1064 2012-10-03 21:44:54 <TD> what needs to be updated?
1065 2012-10-03 21:45:22 <BlueMatt> iirc i havent touched it since the auto-update filter stuff was added (and some semantics were changed at that time)
1066 2012-10-03 21:45:28 <BlueMatt> not sure how much it needs to change though
1067 2012-10-03 21:45:57 <TD> right
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1069 2012-10-03 21:47:16 <jgarzik> TD: yep, which was based on the design you and I hashed out long before that ;p
1070 2012-10-03 21:47:42 <jgarzik> TD: needs (a) more review in context of bitcoind -- just sent a poke, and (b) some actual users proving the API fulfills needs
1071 2012-10-03 21:49:06 <sipa> just a random thought regarding bloom filters
1072 2012-10-03 21:49:26 <sipa> maybe you want to be able to update the filter while downloading blocks
1073 2012-10-03 21:49:32 <sipa> if a key gets used
1074 2012-10-03 21:49:48 <TD> we already thought of that and matt already implemented it
1075 2012-10-03 21:50:06 <sipa> i shall read the patch before commenting again :)
1076 2012-10-03 21:50:16 <TD> :)
1077 2012-10-03 21:51:28 <sipa> oh you mean adding the crediting txid to the filter automatically, so that spends also get found?
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1080 2012-10-03 21:53:55 <TD> yes
1081 2012-10-03 21:54:23 <sipa> yeah, i knew that; that's not what i mean
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1083 2012-10-03 21:55:04 <sipa> in case of a deterministic wallet, you want to be able to update the set of keys (by adding the next one to it) as soon as an earlier one gets used
1084 2012-10-03 21:55:26 <sipa> though you can always try to start with a large-enough look-ahead
1085 2012-10-03 21:55:31 <sipa> maybe not an issue
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1091 2012-10-03 22:02:42 <TD> sipa: yeah it's not clear to me that bloom filters are really compatible with deterministic wallets. the assumption is that remote nodes don't have a clear idea of what your keys are because the filter can contain FPs
1092 2012-10-03 22:02:48 <TD> you can't extract specific keys from the filter
1093 2012-10-03 22:03:17 <TD> so i don't see how to automatically extend the filter from a given root key when a usage is found. i think indeed just extending it out by N hundred keys on the client side is the way to go
1094 2012-10-03 22:03:24 <TD> does anybody have some testnet3 coins?
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1096 2012-10-03 22:04:13 <sipa> faucet does, i think
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1101 2012-10-03 22:09:35 <jgarzik> TD: http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/ should have plenty
1102 2012-10-03 22:10:22 <TD> of course, thanks
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1109 2012-10-03 22:18:48 <TD> BlueMatt: still here?
1110 2012-10-03 22:19:00 <TD> BlueMatt: afaik ChildMessage.adjustLength can just call super.adjustLength()
1111 2012-10-03 22:19:02 <TD> yes?
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1116 2012-10-03 22:21:49 <TD> hmm
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