1 2012-10-04 00:00:20 Rabbit67890 has joined
   2 2012-10-04 00:00:59 D34TH_ has joined
   3 2012-10-04 00:05:01 D34TH__ has joined
   4 2012-10-04 00:05:04 <gmaxwell> I propose we rename -rescan.  I _never_ see it recommended for the right things in irc.
   5 2012-10-04 00:05:11 D34TH has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
   6 2012-10-04 00:05:17 <Luke-Jr> lol
   7 2012-10-04 00:05:17 D34TH__ is now known as D34TH
   8 2012-10-04 00:05:25 Rabbit67890 has quit (Quit: Rabbit67890)
   9 2012-10-04 00:05:27 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
  10 2012-10-04 00:05:28 D34TH has joined
  11 2012-10-04 00:05:54 <gmaxwell> It should be called -transfunction-continuum instead.
  12 2012-10-04 00:06:21 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  13 2012-10-04 00:06:49 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. puppy: it'd be wise to actual chat on here and not loiter.)
  14 2012-10-04 00:07:08 D34TH_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  15 2012-10-04 00:09:26 lggr has joined
  16 2012-10-04 00:16:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  17 2012-10-04 00:16:52 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  18 2012-10-04 00:18:04 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
  19 2012-10-04 00:19:13 D34TH_ has joined
  20 2012-10-04 00:19:49 D34TH has quit (Disconnected by services)
  21 2012-10-04 00:19:52 D34TH_ is now known as D34TH
  22 2012-10-04 00:19:55 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
  23 2012-10-04 00:19:55 D34TH has joined
  24 2012-10-04 00:20:10 lggr has joined
  25 2012-10-04 00:24:43 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
  26 2012-10-04 00:26:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  27 2012-10-04 00:30:19 lggr has joined
  28 2012-10-04 00:37:33 AlexWaters has joined
  29 2012-10-04 00:37:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  30 2012-10-04 00:37:36 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  31 2012-10-04 00:37:40 BTCTrader has joined
  32 2012-10-04 00:37:40 BTCTrader has quit (Changing host)
  33 2012-10-04 00:37:40 BTCTrader has joined
  34 2012-10-04 00:38:15 copumpkin has joined
  35 2012-10-04 00:40:39 lggr has joined
  36 2012-10-04 00:44:30 xisalty has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  37 2012-10-04 00:45:50 xisalty has joined
  38 2012-10-04 00:47:10 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  39 2012-10-04 00:48:43 <phantomcircuit> what's the ecdsa implementation people are using for python?
  40 2012-10-04 00:50:05 <forrestv> phantomcircuit, http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=23241.0
  41 2012-10-04 00:50:12 lggr has joined
  42 2012-10-04 00:53:23 <forrestv> phantomcircuit, and here's my somewhat cleaned up version of that: http://u.forre.st/ecdsa.py.txt
  43 2012-10-04 00:53:43 <phantomcircuit> thanks
  44 2012-10-04 00:53:51 <phantomcircuit> public domain?
  45 2012-10-04 00:54:02 <phantomcircuit> im actually not going to use it for anything bitcoin related
  46 2012-10-04 00:54:13 <phantomcircuit> just happen to need ecdsa python code
  47 2012-10-04 00:54:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if you aren't doing bitcoin things you probably want ed25519 instead. (presumably you can find python code for that)
  48 2012-10-04 00:55:18 <phantomcircuit> im guessing i cant
  49 2012-10-04 00:55:23 <phantomcircuit> maybe with pyopenssl
  50 2012-10-04 00:56:52 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  51 2012-10-04 00:57:05 <sipa> i don't think openssl does ed25519
  52 2012-10-04 00:59:08 lggr has joined
  53 2012-10-04 01:01:22 <forrestv> phantomcircuit, i don't know about the licensing; it looks like a modified version of python-ecdsa
  54 2012-10-04 01:01:39 <phantomcircuit> hmm ok
  55 2012-10-04 01:02:38 jose__ has joined
  56 2012-10-04 01:03:08 Detritus has joined
  57 2012-10-04 01:05:52 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  58 2012-10-04 01:06:08 <phantomcircuit> hmm
  59 2012-10-04 01:06:16 <phantomcircuit> maybe DSA would be a better choice
  60 2012-10-04 01:07:47 EPiSKiNG- has quit ()
  61 2012-10-04 01:07:49 <jose__> Hi every one. Two questions. Does getreceivedbyaddress returs all bitcoins received since block 1? (with at least minconf confirmations). If I can do a getreceivedbyaddress how come I cannot do a getspentbyaddress ?
  62 2012-10-04 01:08:53 lggr has joined
  63 2012-10-04 01:09:05 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  64 2012-10-04 01:09:36 xisalty has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  65 2012-10-04 01:12:44 <jose__> If I give a customer an address to put money in I also want to know how much is left in that address. That is why I want address control.
  66 2012-10-04 01:14:03 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  67 2012-10-04 01:14:03 mmoya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  68 2012-10-04 01:15:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  69 2012-10-04 01:15:15 MobiusL has joined
  70 2012-10-04 01:15:26 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD wait...why can ChildMessage.adjustLength just call super.adjustLength???
  71 2012-10-04 01:15:26 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
  72 2012-10-04 01:16:23 xisalty has joined
  73 2012-10-04 01:16:54 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD ahhh, nevermind, somehow missed that it extends Message itself...
  74 2012-10-04 01:16:55 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
  75 2012-10-04 01:17:32 <phantomcircuit> hmm wow tiny signatures compared to rsa
  76 2012-10-04 01:17:54 lggr has joined
  77 2012-10-04 01:18:17 xisalty has quit (Client Quit)
  78 2012-10-04 01:18:23 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: thats the point.
  79 2012-10-04 01:18:36 xisalty has joined
  80 2012-10-04 01:18:42 <gmaxwell> jose__: thats what the account system is for; you're confusing addresses and accounts.
  81 2012-10-04 01:18:52 <gmaxwell> jose__: there is no such thing as 'funds from' an address.
  82 2012-10-04 01:18:56 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol @ point
  83 2012-10-04 01:19:04 <phantomcircuit> cause it's about points and stuff
  84 2012-10-04 01:19:08 <gmaxwell> hah
  85 2012-10-04 01:19:09 <phantomcircuit> ;;ticker
  86 2012-10-04 01:19:10 <gribble> Best bid: 12.887, Best ask: 12.989, Bid-ask spread: 0.10200, Last trade: 12.8869, 24 hour volume: 31494, 24 hour low: 12.68001, 24 hour high: 12.99
  87 2012-10-04 01:19:54 <gmaxwell> jose__: bitcoin transactions don't have a "from", no more than pennies have a from.
  88 2012-10-04 01:23:57 <weex> gmaxwell: i think he means inputs, choosing the previous output to use but i think you know that
  89 2012-10-04 01:24:16 <gmaxwell> weex: go read the long earlier conversation.
  90 2012-10-04 01:24:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  91 2012-10-04 01:24:26 bcb has joined
  92 2012-10-04 01:24:42 <gmaxwell> weex: he's trying to treat single addresses like accounts and expects them to have balances he can manage.
  93 2012-10-04 01:25:03 <gmaxwell> weex: and he's being pretty much immune to people saying it doesn't work like that, and that he doesn't want it to work like that.
  94 2012-10-04 01:26:01 <jose__> gmaxwell. if I have the private key of an address I own the coins that are signed to that public key. So it seems to me that it is very important to know how much I really own in that address.
  95 2012-10-04 01:27:13 <weex> seems to me there are many cases where that conceptualization of an address is ok, where does it break down?
  96 2012-10-04 01:27:38 <gmaxwell> jose__: from what you were describing before your usecase wants accounts. You reject using accounts because you say they are 'unlike' the blockchain; and yet you keep insisting in talking about balances— an idea which is totally unlike the blockchain.
  97 2012-10-04 01:27:58 lggr has joined
  98 2012-10-04 01:28:06 <gmaxwell> jose__: the blockchain tracks transactions, it has no concept of addresses.
  99 2012-10-04 01:28:12 <gmaxwell> And no concept of balances.
 100 2012-10-04 01:29:00 <jose__> I know looking at the code it seems prety deep in the design. Yet it seems pretty important from the encription point of view which is what holds every thing togheter.
 101 2012-10-04 01:29:04 <gmaxwell> weex: it falls down as soon as you perform a transaction that has change.
 102 2012-10-04 01:29:44 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 103 2012-10-04 01:29:47 <jose__> As soon as a transactions has more than two input or output addresses
 104 2012-10-04 01:30:01 <gmaxwell> jose__: there is no encryption in bitcoin; (except for wallet security). There are cryptographic signatures... and the bitcoin system itself doesn't use addresses for them.
 105 2012-10-04 01:30:17 <jose__> sorry signing ECDSA
 106 2012-10-04 01:30:58 <jose__> but the point is you own what is signed to you.
 107 2012-10-04 01:31:00 <gmaxwell> it's perfectly possible to have bitcoin transactions that don't use ECDSA— though they tend not to be especially secure.
 108 2012-10-04 01:31:16 <weex> gmaxwell: not if i send change back to the "sending" address, maybe there's a downside to doing that that i'm not considering?
 109 2012-10-04 01:31:32 <gmaxwell> jose__: No. You 'own' outpoints with scripts you know how to satisify.
 110 2012-10-04 01:31:57 <weex> ahh, it's the scripts
 111 2012-10-04 01:32:36 <jose__> txs?
 112 2012-10-04 01:32:56 <gmaxwell> weex: yes, it discloses the values of all your transactions, and causes you to reuse a public key which has been disclosed, and creates a persistant identity which can be tracked or blocked. It basically violates the security model of the system.
 113 2012-10-04 01:33:09 <jose__> by scripts you mean the transactions that get recorded in the block chain?
 114 2012-10-04 01:33:23 <gmaxwell> No.
 115 2012-10-04 01:34:07 <gmaxwell> A transaction contains a set of small computer programs— bitcoin script. These scripts on the outputs control who is allowed to redeem those outputs, and on inputs the scripts perform the required actions to trigger the redemption.
 116 2012-10-04 01:34:16 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 117 2012-10-04 01:34:33 <gmaxwell> 'Addresses' are just templates for certian kinds of popular scripts.
 118 2012-10-04 01:34:50 <gmaxwell> and the blockchain itself has no concept of them.
 119 2012-10-04 01:35:38 <bcb> why does importing a privkey into bitcoind show the entire spend balance as a pos number
 120 2012-10-04 01:36:42 lggr has joined
 121 2012-10-04 01:36:50 <gmaxwell> e.g. payment to a 1xxxx style address writes a script that says 'take what the redeemer provides; duplicate it; hash a copy; check to see if it equals (160 bit number extracted from the address) if it does; use the provided value as the public key input to ECDSA and check that the signature matches.
 122 2012-10-04 01:41:45 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell TD re: off-by-one in static length size...sorry, I added one byte to the coinbase bytes at some point later on in the branch...Ill find that commit and put back in the static value in that commit
 123 2012-10-04 01:41:45 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 124 2012-10-04 01:42:10 <jose__> ok. the satoshi paper shows a bitcoin as chain of signatures. where owners 1 private key is used to pass the coin to user 2 by signing it to owners 2 public key (as far as I understand the btc address). Is that correct with respect to the implementation?
 125 2012-10-04 01:43:31 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 126 2012-10-04 01:44:41 <gmaxwell> jose__: yes, the paper is a supreme simplification published a year before the system was released.
 127 2012-10-04 01:45:27 <gmaxwell> The signatures and public keys in bitcoin are not ecdsa— they're programs. The programs we most commonly use use invoke ecdsa.
 128 2012-10-04 01:45:35 <gmaxwell> But this makes the system much more flexible.
 129 2012-10-04 01:45:40 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
 130 2012-10-04 01:46:10 freakazoid has joined
 131 2012-10-04 01:46:24 lggr has joined
 132 2012-10-04 01:47:52 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
 133 2012-10-04 01:49:47 <jose__> Ok. in that simplified structure it seems to me that you own what is signed to you minus what you have signed to some else. That would be what I would like to be reflected in the json-rpc interface. Is that possible or practical to implement?
 134 2012-10-04 01:51:03 <gmaxwell> jose__: it's call a balance.
 135 2012-10-04 01:51:13 <jose__> LOL
 136 2012-10-04 01:51:15 <gmaxwell> and it gives you that.
 137 2012-10-04 01:51:19 <gmaxwell> getbalance. tada.
 138 2012-10-04 01:51:37 <gmaxwell> And 'what is signed to you minus what you have signed to some else' is just not an accurate reflection of the system.
 139 2012-10-04 01:52:09 <gmaxwell> What about a transaction which can be redeemed by any of six people? or a transaction which can only be redeemed with the consent of two people out of three?
 140 2012-10-04 01:52:24 <jose__> ok. yes but it gives me that for ALL the private keys in my wallet. so do I need a wallet for every custumer I want the balance for ?
 141 2012-10-04 01:52:46 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 142 2012-10-04 01:53:44 xisalty has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 143 2012-10-04 01:53:45 <gmaxwell> jose__: no, you use accounts for that. One account per bin.
 144 2012-10-04 01:53:59 <gmaxwell> Thats _exactly_ what accounts are made for.
 145 2012-10-04 01:54:16 <gmaxwell> Or, alternatively, you track those amounts in your own software instead of using the accounts system.
 146 2012-10-04 01:54:32 <jose__> That is exacly what I would expect in the json-rpc interface an 'accurate reflection of the system' meaning the network not some local numbers (accounts)
 147 2012-10-04 01:54:59 BTCTrader has joined
 148 2012-10-04 01:55:00 BTCTrader has quit (Changing host)
 149 2012-10-04 01:55:00 BTCTrader has joined
 150 2012-10-04 01:55:02 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 151 2012-10-04 01:55:07 <gmaxwell> jose__: you are secretly trying to find out if I can have you hit by lightning remotely over the internet, right?
 152 2012-10-04 01:55:21 lggr has joined
 153 2012-10-04 01:55:21 <jose__> no sorry.
 154 2012-10-04 01:55:23 <gmaxwell> Nothing that shows a balance is an accurate reflection of the system.
 155 2012-10-04 01:55:44 <gmaxwell> Because a balance can't express things like:
 156 2012-10-04 01:55:44 <gmaxwell> 18:41 < gmaxwell> What about a transaction which can be redeemed by any of six people? or a transaction which can only be redeemed with the consent of two people out of  three?
 157 2012-10-04 01:55:48 maaku has joined
 158 2012-10-04 01:56:15 Detritus has joined
 159 2012-10-04 01:56:49 maaku has left ()
 160 2012-10-04 01:57:18 maaku has joined
 161 2012-10-04 01:59:13 da2ce7_d is now known as da2ce7
 162 2012-10-04 01:59:52 <jose__> Thank a lot for this time gmaxwell. I will just do it the account way which I already hate or have a wallet for every customer. I was hoping to secretly convince some one to implement something to calculate a balance for a subset of the private keys and reflect that in an rpc call. Thanks a lot again.
 163 2012-10-04 02:01:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 164 2012-10-04 02:02:35 <gmaxwell> jose__: we have that! it's the account system.
 165 2012-10-04 02:02:57 <gmaxwell> it's not bound to private keys for good reason, it's more flexible than tht.
 166 2012-10-04 02:03:00 <gmaxwell> that*.
 167 2012-10-04 02:03:01 B0g4r7 has joined
 168 2012-10-04 02:03:14 <gmaxwell> And you should not reuse addresses as accounts generally. it's bad for security and privacy. :(
 169 2012-10-04 02:03:14 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh god dont tell people to use the accounts system
 170 2012-10-04 02:03:30 <phantomcircuit> it's almost impossible to do proper backups if you use the accounts system
 171 2012-10-04 02:03:42 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hah, well we're certantly not going to add a _second_ accounts system.
 172 2012-10-04 02:03:56 <phantomcircuit> ffs just remove the one that's there
 173 2012-10-04 02:04:03 <phantomcircuit> it does more harm than good
 174 2012-10-04 02:04:04 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's pretty simple, just do snapshots of account operations.
 175 2012-10-04 02:05:02 lggr has joined
 176 2012-10-04 02:05:13 <bcb> if account are so bad and confusing why are they part of system?
 177 2012-10-04 02:05:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, to backup a wallet.dat where you're actively using the accounts system would require a backup be made after every single transaction
 178 2012-10-04 02:05:49 <phantomcircuit> and since there isn't an incremental backup system you're gonna be really screwed really faster
 179 2012-10-04 02:05:54 <phantomcircuit> s/faster/fast/
 180 2012-10-04 02:06:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it doesn't!
 181 2012-10-04 02:06:20 <gmaxwell> bcb: Not sure what you're talking about.
 182 2012-10-04 02:06:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, keypool addresses aren't assigned to accounts
 183 2012-10-04 02:06:34 <phantomcircuit> so yeah you kind of do
 184 2012-10-04 02:07:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: That is indeed a point.
 185 2012-10-04 02:07:18 <gmaxwell> (it's why the HD wallets are H.)
 186 2012-10-04 02:07:33 <phantomcircuit> back when intersango was still britcoin that particular pitfall was fallen into
 187 2012-10-04 02:07:58 <bcb> gmaxwell: i've seen more then a few conversations about the confusion of accounts.
 188 2012-10-04 02:08:08 <bcb> then Phantomcircuit says not to use them
 189 2012-10-04 02:08:13 <gmaxwell> bcb: there is a lot of confusion that arises because the GUI doesn't have them.
 190 2012-10-04 02:08:15 <bcb> seem to be misleading
 191 2012-10-04 02:08:27 <gmaxwell> And indeed, I've told banks and exchanges not to use them myself.
 192 2012-10-04 02:08:27 <jose__> From the point of view of json-rpc user. I do a sendtoaddress. So that address 'holds' my money. How come I cannot choose which address I am sending from? That is just not right from the point of view of the user. That's all.
 193 2012-10-04 02:08:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's just not a good idea to use accounts
 194 2012-10-04 02:08:44 <phantomcircuit> there should be a large warning
 195 2012-10-04 02:08:48 <phantomcircuit> "THaR BE DRAGONS!"
 196 2012-10-04 02:09:11 <phantomcircuit> jose__, there's a patch for that but it's not considered stable
 197 2012-10-04 02:09:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they're OKAY for the purpose of tracking local spending.
 198 2012-10-04 02:09:16 <phantomcircuit> coincontrol
 199 2012-10-04 02:09:26 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it doesn't quite do that either.
 200 2012-10-04 02:09:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm that might be true
 201 2012-10-04 02:09:40 <gmaxwell> And it's not tht its 'not stable' not a single person is willing to maintain it, alas.
 202 2012-10-04 02:09:46 <phantomcircuit> but still backups are basically impossible
 203 2012-10-04 02:09:49 <doublec> you could do it manuall yusing the raw transation api couldn't you?
 204 2012-10-04 02:09:57 <gmaxwell> jose__: you can choose which inputs to spend— by using the raw transactions api.
 205 2012-10-04 02:09:59 <doublec> (the choose address thing)
 206 2012-10-04 02:10:00 <phantomcircuit> unless you've got wallet.dat on it's own filesystem and you're doing file system snapshots
 207 2012-10-04 02:10:17 <gmaxwell> jose__: and addresses don't 'hold money' ... and there is no fking "from" address on a transaction.
 208 2012-10-04 02:10:20 <jose__> Hey! Lets get gmaxwell.
 209 2012-10-04 02:10:23 <gmaxwell> And I'm done repeating myself.
 210 2012-10-04 02:10:49 <bcb> gmaxwell: see it confusing for everyone
 211 2012-10-04 02:11:07 <gmaxwell> bcb: huh? this has nothing to do with accounts. jose__ refuses to use accounts.
 212 2012-10-04 02:11:30 <gmaxwell> This is the common misconception tht bitcoin is a balance tracking system.
 213 2012-10-04 02:11:52 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 214 2012-10-04 02:12:07 <bcb> gmaxell: so forgive my ignorance can you explain more
 215 2012-10-04 02:12:18 BurtyBB has joined
 216 2012-10-04 02:12:27 <jose__> Thank gmaxwell again. I still have the feeling of an assimetric api. But is ok. btc is the best there is we just have to make it better.
 217 2012-10-04 02:13:00 Impaler has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 218 2012-10-04 02:13:17 <gmaxwell> jose__: I guess you can say the system itself is asymmetric, and intentionally so— the system needs to know about where funds go for security, but not where they come from.
 219 2012-10-04 02:13:51 JZavala has joined
 220 2012-10-04 02:13:59 <gmaxwell> and bitcoin tries very hard to keep information which isn't essential for security and inflation prevention out of the chain, because that information is bad for privacy/security/scalablity.
 221 2012-10-04 02:14:03 Impaler has joined
 222 2012-10-04 02:14:13 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 223 2012-10-04 02:15:00 dooglus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 224 2012-10-04 02:15:18 <gmaxwell> bcb: What would you like me to explain?  The basic point there is that bitcoin tracks 'transactions'— it's helpful to visualize them as coins. When you spend your coins are re-forged by the network— in the process it can split and merge them, and
 225 2012-10-04 02:15:32 lggr has joined
 226 2012-10-04 02:15:38 <gmaxwell> and when they're reforced they are minted with the new rules for redeeming them inscribed on them.
 227 2012-10-04 02:16:00 xisalty has joined
 228 2012-10-04 02:16:06 dooglus has joined
 229 2012-10-04 02:16:06 dooglus has quit (Changing host)
 230 2012-10-04 02:16:06 dooglus has joined
 231 2012-10-04 02:16:06 <jose__> There is no fking 'from' in a tx but the money was signed by some one. That what I mean by 'too deep in the design'.
 232 2012-10-04 02:16:07 <gmaxwell> Your transaction which directs this process includes the information required to satisify those rules on the original coins you are spending.
 233 2012-10-04 02:16:18 <gmaxwell> jose__: it can be signed by many people!
 234 2012-10-04 02:16:35 <gmaxwell> and the ownership can and does change invisible to the user
 235 2012-10-04 02:16:48 <jose__> That is part of 'too deep in the desing'.
 236 2012-10-04 02:16:52 <gmaxwell> Thats not a from it's a prior to. It's sometimes but not always relted.
 237 2012-10-04 02:17:03 <gmaxwell> related*
 238 2012-10-04 02:17:07 <gmaxwell> e.g. common web wallets...
 239 2012-10-04 02:18:26 <gmaxwell> I pay Alice, a webwallet user, 5 BTC...  Then later Bob, another user, of that service spends 5 BTC exactly to Tom. The service uses the payment I made to Alice to pay that; because its an exact match that minimizes transaction size and network load.
 240 2012-10-04 02:18:49 <gmaxwell> Now, if Tom is under the misaprehension that the prior-to is a from— he'll be quite confused.
 241 2012-10-04 02:19:17 <jose__> Meaning signing is the hole point of ownership but the way transactions are constructed makes the reflection of ownership hard to track.
 242 2012-10-04 02:19:22 <gmaxwell> Alternatively, what happens when the prior-to is a script that could be redeemed by multiple people?  — any of six keys can spend it?  whats the source then?
 243 2012-10-04 02:19:55 <gmaxwell> or when it can be redeemed by anyone who can provide the preimage under SHA256 of some 256 bit value?
 244 2012-10-04 02:20:15 <bcb> "preimage" ?
 245 2012-10-04 02:20:42 <gmaxwell> H('secret') = 0x12345 ...  I can write a transaction that requires the redeemer to provide 'secret'.
 246 2012-10-04 02:20:49 <gmaxwell> (H == a hash function)
 247 2012-10-04 02:20:52 <bcb> ahh
 248 2012-10-04 02:21:08 <gmaxwell> You can use this to make cheating proof cross-cryptocurrency trades, for example.
 249 2012-10-04 02:21:54 <gmaxwell> You write txns that pay to someone who provides H('yoursecret')=12345 AND H('mysecret')=23456.  Once matching transactions are put in on both chains then the users exchange secrets.
 250 2012-10-04 02:22:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 251 2012-10-04 02:22:16 <gmaxwell> If the guy your trading with doesn't give you his secret you can still get it out of the transaction on the other chain when he redeems it.
 252 2012-10-04 02:24:34 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 253 2012-10-04 02:25:01 <bcb> gmaxwell:  helpful.  I think the assumption that bitcoind is tracking debits and credits when it is essentially tracking and confirming the transactions?
 254 2012-10-04 02:25:30 <gmaxwell> bcb: correct. Bitcoin tracks only transactions.  But thats not very useful so _all_ bitcoin software and websites show debits and credits.
 255 2012-10-04 02:25:33 lggr has joined
 256 2012-10-04 02:25:34 <jose__> The only 'secret' should be your private keys. That is the point of cryptography.
 257 2012-10-04 02:25:51 <gmaxwell> jose__: do you hear that wooshing sound?
 258 2012-10-04 02:26:03 <jose__> sorry
 259 2012-10-04 02:26:06 <jose__> i am out
 260 2012-10-04 02:26:07 <bcb> so there is not necessarily a corresponding debit for every credit
 261 2012-10-04 02:26:19 <gmaxwell> Thats you missing the point of that example. Doing a cross currency trade securely and cheat proof is not possible with just private keys.
 262 2012-10-04 02:26:34 jose__ has left ()
 263 2012-10-04 02:26:59 <gmaxwell> I am sad that I never got around to saying "No way, Jose"
 264 2012-10-04 02:27:14 <bcb> too late!
 265 2012-10-04 02:27:29 <gmaxwell> bcb: There is certantly coins that go in for any that go out.  But they may not neatly fit into clean debits and credits.
 266 2012-10-04 02:27:55 <gmaxwell> bcb: for example, it's possible for you and me to jointly create a transaction where you and I provide part of the total payment.
 267 2012-10-04 02:28:53 <gmaxwell> So you have two out— from different people— and one in.  And 'ownership' isn't clear— they could be one owner of a txn, or many  .. or an output  could be 'owned' by a collection of people.
 268 2012-10-04 02:30:01 <bcb> this is multisiq and only avail in 0.7 yes
 269 2012-10-04 02:31:09 <bcb> gmaxwell: according to the command you have to know the number of signers before you create the transaction
 270 2012-10-04 02:31:22 <bcb> multisigtransaction
 271 2012-10-04 02:31:31 Pasha has joined
 272 2012-10-04 02:31:56 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 273 2012-10-04 02:32:19 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 274 2012-10-04 02:32:35 <gmaxwell> bcb: 'this' meaning the "be 'owned' by a collection of people"  ? Thats multisig... you have to know the candidate signers and how many will be required to create a multisig address.
 275 2012-10-04 02:32:51 <gmaxwell> the system allows a lot more than the rpc allows though
 276 2012-10-04 02:33:20 Pasha is now known as Cory
 277 2012-10-04 02:33:28 <gmaxwell> e.g. you can have a txn that can be redeemed by A || (B && Two-Of[C,D,E])
 278 2012-10-04 02:34:09 <bcb> what does that command look like
 279 2012-10-04 02:34:49 Pasha has joined
 280 2012-10-04 02:35:08 <gmaxwell> There isn't a command for it— you'd have to use external software to write that transaction. The network supports it though.
 281 2012-10-04 02:35:47 <B0g4r7> Is there a way I can cause bitcoind to always "trust" a specific peer (IP address on my LAN), and always exchange new blocks with it as soon as a new one is received by either?
 282 2012-10-04 02:36:02 <B0g4r7> Maybe trust wasn't the right term really.
 283 2012-10-04 02:36:14 lggr has joined
 284 2012-10-04 02:36:14 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: you already give blocks to your peers as soon as you get one. (well, send invs)
 285 2012-10-04 02:36:33 <gmaxwell> (you send an INV and if the peer doesn't have the block it will send a get)
 286 2012-10-04 02:36:56 <B0g4r7> One won't snub the other for being too chatty relative to the other peers or something?
 287 2012-10-04 02:37:28 <gmaxwell> No. INV messages are super small so we're maximally chatty about them
 288 2012-10-04 02:38:00 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 289 2012-10-04 02:38:02 <B0g4r7> Hm, so it should "just work" then huh...
 290 2012-10-04 02:38:17 <B0g4r7> I already have addnode= lines for them in each others' conf files.
 291 2012-10-04 02:38:33 Pasha is now known as Cory
 292 2012-10-04 02:39:21 <B0g4r7> I have 2 internet connections, and I plan to have the two nodes each using one, so that if either goes down, they both still remain synchronized through the remaining connection.
 293 2012-10-04 02:40:57 <B0g4r7> Can I expect the peers to remain connected to each other long after startup if I have the addnode= lines present?
 294 2012-10-04 02:41:24 <gmaxwell> yep.
 295 2012-10-04 02:43:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 296 2012-10-04 02:43:58 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 297 2012-10-04 02:45:42 Pasha has joined
 298 2012-10-04 02:46:07 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 299 2012-10-04 02:46:36 Pasha is now known as Cory
 300 2012-10-04 02:46:39 fiesh has joined
 301 2012-10-04 02:46:49 lggr has joined
 302 2012-10-04 02:53:10 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 303 2012-10-04 02:56:48 lggr has joined
 304 2012-10-04 02:57:19 <B0g4r7> excellent
 305 2012-10-04 03:03:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 306 2012-10-04 03:06:51 one_zero has quit ()
 307 2012-10-04 03:07:02 lggr has joined
 308 2012-10-04 03:10:27 one_zero has joined
 309 2012-10-04 03:13:12 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 310 2012-10-04 03:15:08 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 311 2012-10-04 03:16:22 eoss has joined
 312 2012-10-04 03:16:22 eoss has quit (Changing host)
 313 2012-10-04 03:16:22 eoss has joined
 314 2012-10-04 03:16:22 lggr has joined
 315 2012-10-04 03:19:20 <bcb> does bitcoind save your commands like .bash_history
 316 2012-10-04 03:21:21 <gmaxwell> No. But bash history does. :P
 317 2012-10-04 03:22:03 <bcb> just looked they are not in there??
 318 2012-10-04 03:23:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 319 2012-10-04 03:23:25 <bcb> found it
 320 2012-10-04 03:23:34 <gmaxwell> bcb: the .bash_history file isn't written by your shell unless you log out.
 321 2012-10-04 03:23:40 <gmaxwell> bcb: concerned about your passphrase?
 322 2012-10-04 03:24:48 <bcb> yes
 323 2012-10-04 03:26:29 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54671.0
 324 2012-10-04 03:26:41 lggr has joined
 325 2012-10-04 03:27:47 <gmaxwell> "Use the CLI w/ encryption? Protect your passphrase with bash's HISTIGNORE"
 326 2012-10-04 03:28:09 Guest82548 is now known as jarpiain
 327 2012-10-04 03:28:34 <bcb> I'm also trying to find a raw transaction I created to send to the network
 328 2012-10-04 03:29:14 <gmaxwell> ah, the _output_ won't be in the history... so the final signed transaction won't be there unless you already sent it once
 329 2012-10-04 03:29:40 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 330 2012-10-04 03:29:49 [7] has joined
 331 2012-10-04 03:34:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 332 2012-10-04 03:36:51 lggr has joined
 333 2012-10-04 03:39:33 <bcb> gmaxwell:  I didn't send it and I exited the shell
 334 2012-10-04 03:39:59 <bcb> how would I now transmit that to the network
 335 2012-10-04 03:40:28 <bcb> I guess i could sign it again
 336 2012-10-04 03:40:34 <gmaxwell> bcb: yep
 337 2012-10-04 03:42:44 <bcb> code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"
 338 2012-10-04 03:43:08 <bcb> I created both sigs from the same bitoind
 339 2012-10-04 03:43:10 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 340 2012-10-04 03:44:16 random_cat is now known as ass_backward_pro
 341 2012-10-04 03:46:11 lggr has joined
 342 2012-10-04 03:50:45 ass_backward_pro is now known as random_cat
 343 2012-10-04 03:52:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 344 2012-10-04 03:53:20 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 345 2012-10-04 03:56:28 lggr has joined
 346 2012-10-04 03:57:48 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 347 2012-10-04 04:03:13 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 348 2012-10-04 04:06:43 lggr has joined
 349 2012-10-04 04:13:31 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 350 2012-10-04 04:16:34 lggr has joined
 351 2012-10-04 04:18:32 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 352 2012-10-04 04:18:32 root2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 353 2012-10-04 04:20:26 <bcb> gmaxwell: nice: HISTIGNORE
 354 2012-10-04 04:20:32 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 355 2012-10-04 04:21:32 <bcb> gmaxwell: if multisig escrow does not complete how do you retrieve coins sent to escrow address
 356 2012-10-04 04:21:32 maaku has joined
 357 2012-10-04 04:22:21 <gmaxwell> precompute a locked refund before announcing the escrow; or have a mediator so you can always complete it.
 358 2012-10-04 04:22:36 stamit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 359 2012-10-04 04:23:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 360 2012-10-04 04:23:24 topace has joined
 361 2012-10-04 04:24:07 RainbowDashh has joined
 362 2012-10-04 04:24:57 <bcb> how would you precompute a locked refund
 363 2012-10-04 04:26:23 lggr has joined
 364 2012-10-04 04:27:18 <maaku> non-final sequence number and lock time in the future
 365 2012-10-04 04:28:21 ThomasV_ has joined
 366 2012-10-04 04:30:19 <gmaxwell> bcb: you write the escrow transaction but don't announce it, now having its txout you write the refund... a txn both of you sign that returns the funds but it has a non-final sequence number and lock time in the future.
 367 2012-10-04 04:32:13 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 368 2012-10-04 04:32:46 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 369 2012-10-04 04:34:53 stamit has joined
 370 2012-10-04 04:35:14 <stamit> thank you for thanking me for joining the channel...
 371 2012-10-04 04:35:19 lggr has joined
 372 2012-10-04 04:41:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 373 2012-10-04 04:44:27 lggr has joined
 374 2012-10-04 04:50:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 375 2012-10-04 04:53:38 ovidiusoft has joined
 376 2012-10-04 04:53:53 lggr has joined
 377 2012-10-04 04:56:24 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 378 2012-10-04 05:00:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 379 2012-10-04 05:03:18 lggr has joined
 380 2012-10-04 05:04:08 bcb has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 381 2012-10-04 05:06:51 BTCTrader has quit (Quit: BTCTrader)
 382 2012-10-04 05:08:33 meLon has joined
 383 2012-10-04 05:09:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 384 2012-10-04 05:10:09 darkee has joined
 385 2012-10-04 05:12:45 lggr has joined
 386 2012-10-04 05:19:56 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 387 2012-10-04 05:21:06 xisalty has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 388 2012-10-04 05:23:15 lggr has joined
 389 2012-10-04 05:24:34 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 390 2012-10-04 05:29:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 391 2012-10-04 05:33:03 lggr has joined
 392 2012-10-04 05:34:22 root2 has joined
 393 2012-10-04 05:35:28 FaRaLiMiTe has quit (Quit: changing servers)
 394 2012-10-04 05:35:44 FaRaLiMiTe has joined
 395 2012-10-04 05:36:03 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 396 2012-10-04 05:36:34 mortikia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 397 2012-10-04 05:36:42 mortikia has joined
 398 2012-10-04 05:38:57 t2che has joined
 399 2012-10-04 05:39:29 dstien_ has joined
 400 2012-10-04 05:39:35 dstien has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 401 2012-10-04 05:39:49 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 402 2012-10-04 05:40:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 403 2012-10-04 05:40:17 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 404 2012-10-04 05:40:48 _flow_ has joined
 405 2012-10-04 05:42:40 lggr has joined
 406 2012-10-04 05:43:55 random_cat has joined
 407 2012-10-04 05:49:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 408 2012-10-04 05:52:32 lggr has joined
 409 2012-10-04 05:55:09 arij has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 410 2012-10-04 05:55:51 BTCTrader has joined
 411 2012-10-04 05:55:51 BTCTrader has quit (Changing host)
 412 2012-10-04 05:55:51 BTCTrader has joined
 413 2012-10-04 05:58:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 414 2012-10-04 05:59:26 kreal has quit ()
 415 2012-10-04 06:00:14 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 416 2012-10-04 06:01:54 lggr has joined
 417 2012-10-04 06:08:57 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 418 2012-10-04 06:11:38 lggr has joined
 419 2012-10-04 06:12:48 enolan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 420 2012-10-04 06:17:47 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 421 2012-10-04 06:19:47 robbak has joined
 422 2012-10-04 06:20:25 lggr has joined
 423 2012-10-04 06:20:51 <robbak> I've been handed the job of maintainer for the FreeBSD port for bitcoin. The port is currently locked to BDB version 4.7, which I think is wrong.
 424 2012-10-04 06:21:43 <robbak> The system for selecting BDB versions is flexable, defaulting to what is available. What are the reccomended BDB versions?
 425 2012-10-04 06:22:42 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 426 2012-10-04 06:26:16 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 427 2012-10-04 06:27:45 CodesInChaos has joined
 428 2012-10-04 06:29:06 lggr has joined
 429 2012-10-04 06:33:03 <wumpus> 4.8
 430 2012-10-04 06:33:41 <wumpus> using 5.1 is not recommended because the format is incompatible with 4.8, and the binary distributions (on linux and windows) are linked against 4.8
 431 2012-10-04 06:34:38 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 432 2012-10-04 06:35:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 433 2012-10-04 06:35:42 <robbak> OK. Multiple BDB versions coexist happily on BSD. Is there any reasons not to allow it to build on 4.7 or even earlier?
 434 2012-10-04 06:37:49 BitcoinBaltar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 435 2012-10-04 06:38:04 lggr has joined
 436 2012-10-04 06:39:07 BitcoinBaltar has joined
 437 2012-10-04 06:42:43 RazielZ has joined
 438 2012-10-04 06:44:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 439 2012-10-04 06:46:47 <wumpus> it works with at least 4.7 and 4.8, earlier I don't know, that's untested and thus not recommended
 440 2012-10-04 06:48:02 lggr has joined
 441 2012-10-04 06:49:09 maaku has joined
 442 2012-10-04 06:49:35 <robbak> OK. I'll set it to 4.7+ in the next update.
 443 2012-10-04 06:50:40 <wumpus> 4.7..4.8 I suppose?
 444 2012-10-04 06:50:57 Jamesz has joined
 445 2012-10-04 06:51:00 <maaku> can a 4.8 database run on 4.7?
 446 2012-10-04 06:52:09 <wumpus> don't know
 447 2012-10-04 06:52:25 <wumpus> as I remember, the problems began with 5.x, but I'm by no means a bdb expert
 448 2012-10-04 06:52:32 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 449 2012-10-04 06:53:20 <robbak> Yes, that's right. The BDB system seems to only deal with 4.x versions, so 4.7+ will build with 4.7 or 4.8, which ever the system has installed.
 450 2012-10-04 06:53:58 <robbak> Don't know about 4.7-4.8 compatability, though. I can find out easily - hold on
 451 2012-10-04 06:54:09 <maaku> yes, but the question is: if I have a wallet backed up from a windows machine (where bitcoind is hard-linked against 4.8), will it work on your 4.7 FreeBSD port?
 452 2012-10-04 06:55:05 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 453 2012-10-04 06:55:38 <robbak> Answer is no. I just loaded my 4.8 version testnet dir with the 4.7 client and it bombed with a Runaway exception 22DBRunRecoveryException
 454 2012-10-04 06:55:58 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 455 2012-10-04 06:56:27 <wumpus> ok... so better to fix it to 4.8
 456 2012-10-04 06:56:33 <robbak> OK, will do.
 457 2012-10-04 06:57:58 lggr has joined
 458 2012-10-04 07:04:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 459 2012-10-04 07:06:46 lggr has joined
 460 2012-10-04 07:08:22 MC1984 has joined
 461 2012-10-04 07:13:13 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 462 2012-10-04 07:13:55 ovidiuso1t has joined
 463 2012-10-04 07:15:39 thepok has joined
 464 2012-10-04 07:16:10 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 465 2012-10-04 07:16:28 lggr has joined
 466 2012-10-04 07:19:37 RainbowDashh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 467 2012-10-04 07:20:19 RainbowDashh has joined
 468 2012-10-04 07:22:46 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 469 2012-10-04 07:23:34 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 470 2012-10-04 07:24:05 RainbowDashh has quit (Client Quit)
 471 2012-10-04 07:25:03 lggr has joined
 472 2012-10-04 07:25:25 MrMeowork has joined
 473 2012-10-04 07:28:43 RainbowDashh has joined
 474 2012-10-04 07:30:25 osxorgate has joined
 475 2012-10-04 07:32:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 476 2012-10-04 07:34:10 Motest031 has joined
 477 2012-10-04 07:35:04 Motest003 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 478 2012-10-04 07:35:16 lggr has joined
 479 2012-10-04 07:37:46 linkedinyou has joined
 480 2012-10-04 07:39:38 robbak has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 481 2012-10-04 07:39:50 toffoo has quit ()
 482 2012-10-04 07:42:17 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 483 2012-10-04 07:45:17 lggr has joined
 484 2012-10-04 07:46:23 boupitch has joined
 485 2012-10-04 07:47:31 bitfoo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 486 2012-10-04 07:51:32 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 487 2012-10-04 07:52:03 PK has joined
 488 2012-10-04 07:54:08 lggr has joined
 489 2012-10-04 07:54:39 bitfoo has joined
 490 2012-10-04 08:00:01 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 491 2012-10-04 08:00:23 fpgaminer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 492 2012-10-04 08:00:43 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 493 2012-10-04 08:00:53 fpgaminer has joined
 494 2012-10-04 08:04:17 lggr has joined
 495 2012-10-04 08:07:00 BlackPrapor has joined
 496 2012-10-04 08:07:26 BlackPrapor has quit (Client Quit)
 497 2012-10-04 08:10:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 498 2012-10-04 08:13:54 lggr has joined
 499 2012-10-04 08:21:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 500 2012-10-04 08:24:10 lggr has joined
 501 2012-10-04 08:30:56 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 502 2012-10-04 08:34:13 lggr has joined
 503 2012-10-04 08:40:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 504 2012-10-04 08:42:36 mykhal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 505 2012-10-04 08:43:50 lggr has joined
 506 2012-10-04 08:50:37 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 507 2012-10-04 08:50:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 508 2012-10-04 08:53:47 lggr has joined
 509 2012-10-04 08:59:52 osxorgate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 510 2012-10-04 09:00:05 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 511 2012-10-04 09:01:10 graingert has joined
 512 2012-10-04 09:02:08 osxorgate has joined
 513 2012-10-04 09:02:44 lggr has joined
 514 2012-10-04 09:04:00 SomeoneWeird has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 515 2012-10-04 09:06:06 otimm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 516 2012-10-04 09:07:27 zzzzzZZZZzzz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 517 2012-10-04 09:09:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 518 2012-10-04 09:09:19 otimm has joined
 519 2012-10-04 09:09:46 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 520 2012-10-04 09:11:47 lggr has joined
 521 2012-10-04 09:14:11 molecular has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 522 2012-10-04 09:17:33 mykhal has joined
 523 2012-10-04 09:17:54 molecular has joined
 524 2012-10-04 09:18:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 525 2012-10-04 09:21:49 lggr has joined
 526 2012-10-04 09:28:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 527 2012-10-04 09:31:01 napoleoncomplex has joined
 528 2012-10-04 09:31:52 lggr has joined
 529 2012-10-04 09:34:17 AlexWaters has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 530 2012-10-04 09:38:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 531 2012-10-04 09:42:18 lggr has joined
 532 2012-10-04 09:49:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 533 2012-10-04 09:53:01 lggr has joined
 534 2012-10-04 09:54:15 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 535 2012-10-04 09:54:33 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
 536 2012-10-04 09:59:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 537 2012-10-04 10:02:26 lggr has joined
 538 2012-10-04 10:04:13 linkedinyou has left ("Leaving")
 539 2012-10-04 10:09:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 540 2012-10-04 10:13:04 lggr has joined
 541 2012-10-04 10:14:10 root2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 542 2012-10-04 10:15:40 m00p has joined
 543 2012-10-04 10:16:45 boupitch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 544 2012-10-04 10:19:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 545 2012-10-04 10:20:40 drizztbsd has joined
 546 2012-10-04 10:21:47 robocoin has joined
 547 2012-10-04 10:23:32 lggr has joined
 548 2012-10-04 10:30:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 549 2012-10-04 10:33:19 lggr has joined
 550 2012-10-04 10:36:15 BlackPrapor has joined
 551 2012-10-04 10:39:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 552 2012-10-04 10:39:35 thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 553 2012-10-04 10:40:06 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 554 2012-10-04 10:42:23 lggr has joined
 555 2012-10-04 10:48:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 556 2012-10-04 10:49:56 sytse has joined
 557 2012-10-04 10:51:21 lggr has joined
 558 2012-10-04 10:54:21 datagutt has joined
 559 2012-10-04 10:55:42 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 560 2012-10-04 10:57:22 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 561 2012-10-04 10:58:14 sytse has joined
 562 2012-10-04 11:00:21 lggr has joined
 563 2012-10-04 11:00:41 thepok has joined
 564 2012-10-04 11:03:17 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 565 2012-10-04 11:07:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 566 2012-10-04 11:10:30 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@host-72-2-137-170.csinet.net|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 567 2012-10-04 11:10:30 lggr has joined
 568 2012-10-04 11:12:53 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 569 2012-10-04 11:13:07 Eslbaer has joined
 570 2012-10-04 11:16:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 571 2012-10-04 11:19:18 lggr has joined
 572 2012-10-04 11:24:47 MC1984 has joined
 573 2012-10-04 11:25:00 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 574 2012-10-04 11:25:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 575 2012-10-04 11:28:21 lggr has joined
 576 2012-10-04 11:30:03 boupitch has joined
 577 2012-10-04 11:34:40 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 578 2012-10-04 11:37:28 lggr has joined
 579 2012-10-04 11:40:26 m00p has joined
 580 2012-10-04 11:42:10 Raccoon` has joined
 581 2012-10-04 11:43:34 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 582 2012-10-04 11:44:45 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 583 2012-10-04 11:46:49 lggr has joined
 584 2012-10-04 11:53:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 585 2012-10-04 11:57:03 ovidiuso1t has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 586 2012-10-04 11:57:13 lggr has joined
 587 2012-10-04 12:02:50 denisx has joined
 588 2012-10-04 12:03:43 Joric has joined
 589 2012-10-04 12:03:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 590 2012-10-04 12:06:28 lggr has joined
 591 2012-10-04 12:09:41 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 592 2012-10-04 12:10:19 copumpkin has joined
 593 2012-10-04 12:11:36 Eslbaer has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
 594 2012-10-04 12:11:56 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 595 2012-10-04 12:13:22 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 596 2012-10-04 12:14:38 t7 has joined
 597 2012-10-04 12:16:26 lggr has joined
 598 2012-10-04 12:18:19 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 599 2012-10-04 12:18:49 xisalty has joined
 600 2012-10-04 12:20:26 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 601 2012-10-04 12:22:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 602 2012-10-04 12:25:40 lggr has joined
 603 2012-10-04 12:30:47 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 604 2012-10-04 12:32:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 605 2012-10-04 12:33:03 sytse has joined
 606 2012-10-04 12:35:26 lggr has joined
 607 2012-10-04 12:36:33 root2 has joined
 608 2012-10-04 12:36:47 root2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 609 2012-10-04 12:37:42 root2 has joined
 610 2012-10-04 12:38:07 root2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 611 2012-10-04 12:40:00 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 612 2012-10-04 12:41:36 Arnavion has joined
 613 2012-10-04 12:41:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 614 2012-10-04 12:44:28 lggr has joined
 615 2012-10-04 12:50:41 kreal has joined
 616 2012-10-04 12:51:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 617 2012-10-04 12:52:31 root2 has joined
 618 2012-10-04 12:54:06 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 619 2012-10-04 12:54:39 lggr has joined
 620 2012-10-04 12:56:09 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 621 2012-10-04 12:57:17 Luke-Jr has joined
 622 2012-10-04 13:00:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 623 2012-10-04 13:01:52 agricocb has joined
 624 2012-10-04 13:02:52 drizztbsd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 625 2012-10-04 13:03:12 rdponticelli has joined
 626 2012-10-04 13:03:47 drizztbsd has joined
 627 2012-10-04 13:03:54 lggr has joined
 628 2012-10-04 13:05:08 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 629 2012-10-04 13:09:03 torsthaldo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 630 2012-10-04 13:10:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 631 2012-10-04 13:13:48 _sgstair has joined
 632 2012-10-04 13:13:48 sgstair has quit (Disconnected by services)
 633 2012-10-04 13:13:53 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
 634 2012-10-04 13:14:05 lggr has joined
 635 2012-10-04 13:19:01 Joric has quit ()
 636 2012-10-04 13:19:44 ovidiusoft has joined
 637 2012-10-04 13:20:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 638 2012-10-04 13:21:55 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 639 2012-10-04 13:22:53 _flow_ has joined
 640 2012-10-04 13:23:14 lggr has joined
 641 2012-10-04 13:24:40 napoleoncomplex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 642 2012-10-04 13:28:28 gavinandresen has joined
 643 2012-10-04 13:29:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 644 2012-10-04 13:32:35 lggr has joined
 645 2012-10-04 13:32:55 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 646 2012-10-04 13:38:39 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 647 2012-10-04 13:41:48 lggr has joined
 648 2012-10-04 13:42:57 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 649 2012-10-04 13:47:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 650 2012-10-04 13:47:52 one_zero has quit ()
 651 2012-10-04 13:49:58 arij has joined
 652 2012-10-04 13:50:22 arij is now known as Guest90526
 653 2012-10-04 13:51:21 lggr has joined
 654 2012-10-04 13:52:46 copumpkin has joined
 655 2012-10-04 13:56:30 root2 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 656 2012-10-04 13:56:48 root2 has joined
 657 2012-10-04 13:57:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 658 2012-10-04 14:01:35 lggr has joined
 659 2012-10-04 14:04:09 _flow_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 660 2012-10-04 14:05:00 CodesInChaos has joined
 661 2012-10-04 14:07:22 _flow_ has joined
 662 2012-10-04 14:07:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 663 2012-10-04 14:10:48 lggr has joined
 664 2012-10-04 14:17:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 665 2012-10-04 14:21:01 lggr has joined
 666 2012-10-04 14:26:53 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 667 2012-10-04 14:27:41 root2_ has joined
 668 2012-10-04 14:29:42 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 669 2012-10-04 14:30:28 lggr has joined
 670 2012-10-04 14:31:32 <MC1984> heres something useful the bitcoin foundation can do
 671 2012-10-04 14:31:42 <MC1984> standardise a new non-shitty logo
 672 2012-10-04 14:31:55 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 673 2012-10-04 14:32:08 <MC1984> and an ASCII symbol that isnt already in use by a nation-state on the markets
 674 2012-10-04 14:32:11 <kjj_> and by logo, you mean a text glyph, right?
 675 2012-10-04 14:32:31 <MC1984> both
 676 2012-10-04 14:32:59 <MC1984> use the B with the strikethrough, and ditch that shitty old circular logo from 2009
 677 2012-10-04 14:32:59 <gavinandresen> MC1984: do you like the Foundation's logo?  (the linked square-circles thing)
 678 2012-10-04 14:33:37 <MC1984> gavinandresen i have no idea what that logo is supposed to mean
 679 2012-10-04 14:34:08 <MC1984> does it represent the chain?
 680 2012-10-04 14:34:11 <gavinandresen> it's a very abstract reference to the block chain
 681 2012-10-04 14:34:30 <MC1984> two mutually recursive basic geometries linked at the corners
 682 2012-10-04 14:34:33 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about designing logos.....
 683 2012-10-04 14:34:34 <MC1984> oh im right lol
 684 2012-10-04 14:34:55 <gavinandresen> ... but that one was designed by professionals (Hansen Belyea)
 685 2012-10-04 14:35:33 <MC1984> ive seen on of the forums
 686 2012-10-04 14:35:37 <MC1984> i iked
 687 2012-10-04 14:35:39 <epscy> did they offer a money back guarantee?
 688 2012-10-04 14:35:42 <epscy> i kid
 689 2012-10-04 14:35:55 <gavinandresen> epscy: bitcoin-back guarantee... (I'm pretty sure we paid them in bitcoin!)
 690 2012-10-04 14:36:31 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 691 2012-10-04 14:37:11 <thepok> the logo is boring
 692 2012-10-04 14:37:29 <thepok> and no connection to bitcoin
 693 2012-10-04 14:38:02 <MC1984> gavinandresen ill be honest first time i went to bitcoinfoundation.org, i thought it was a generic parked domain page
 694 2012-10-04 14:38:09 <MC1984> purely visually, without reading
 695 2012-10-04 14:38:15 <epscy> burn
 696 2012-10-04 14:38:18 <Eliel> :D
 697 2012-10-04 14:38:23 <thepok> no recall value
 698 2012-10-04 14:38:30 <Eliel> I can see how it would look like that.
 699 2012-10-04 14:38:30 <epscy> i like the design of the site
 700 2012-10-04 14:38:42 <thepok> its about the logo
 701 2012-10-04 14:38:43 <thepok> :D
 702 2012-10-04 14:38:47 <epscy> most bootstrap sites have that look about though unfortunately
 703 2012-10-04 14:39:23 <MC1984> just my opinion man
 704 2012-10-04 14:39:54 lggr has joined
 705 2012-10-04 14:40:00 <Eliel> there's so little information on the front page that it could easily seem like just a placeholder.
 706 2012-10-04 14:40:06 <gavinandresen> okey doke.  I don't get involved in website aesthetic discussions, I have the artistic ability of a cockroach.
 707 2012-10-04 14:40:34 <MC1984> its not amazingly important right now
 708 2012-10-04 14:40:56 <epscy> to be fair, it's nicer than the linux foundation site
 709 2012-10-04 14:40:59 <gavinandresen> It's all my parents fault, I only had the 8-color crayon box growing up.  If they'd given me the 64-color box with the sharpener I'd be a graphic design whiz....
 710 2012-10-04 14:41:01 PhantomSpark has joined
 711 2012-10-04 14:41:20 <Eliel> does someone keep a public record of the historical market depth at mtgox by the way?
 712 2012-10-04 14:41:22 <epscy> "your parents, they fuck you up"
 713 2012-10-04 14:41:33 <epscy> Eliel: bitcoincharts
 714 2012-10-04 14:41:43 <epscy> though i am not sure how far back they go now
 715 2012-10-04 14:41:50 <Eliel> epscy: market depth too? not just the exchange rate?
 716 2012-10-04 14:41:58 <epscy> oh
 717 2012-10-04 14:42:00 <epscy> not sure
 718 2012-10-04 14:42:22 <epscy> Eliel: to be honest i am not sure of the value of that data
 719 2012-10-04 14:42:25 skeledrew has joined
 720 2012-10-04 14:42:38 <epscy> a lot of orders are fake
 721 2012-10-04 14:42:46 <epscy> and get pulled quickly
 722 2012-10-04 14:42:48 <jarpiain> Eliel: bitcoinx.com/charts
 723 2012-10-04 14:43:39 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 724 2012-10-04 14:44:22 <Eliel> jarpiain: yes, I'm aware of that graph. I'd however like to get a) more history and b) the data as numbers.
 725 2012-10-04 14:45:29 <epscy> Eliel: that's probably a very large amount of data
 726 2012-10-04 14:45:45 <Eliel> epscy: yes, I expect it is.
 727 2012-10-04 14:45:58 <epscy> I doubt there is a copy of that outside of mtgoxs database and backups
 728 2012-10-04 14:46:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 729 2012-10-04 14:46:14 <epscy> perhaps if you ask MagicalTux nicely
 730 2012-10-04 14:49:19 lggr has joined
 731 2012-10-04 14:54:46 briggle has joined
 732 2012-10-04 14:55:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 733 2012-10-04 14:55:12 <MC1984> idea: when syncing the chain, what if bitcoin downloaded a chunk of blocks as fast as possible directly to RAM and then started verifying them and building the local database then flush to disk, from there which is shit tons faster than doing it all from disk
 734 2012-10-04 14:55:20 <MC1984> say 500 block chunks
 735 2012-10-04 14:55:29 <MC1984> repeat until finished
 736 2012-10-04 14:55:33 <MC1984> is that stupid
 737 2012-10-04 14:55:58 <epscy> depends on how much ram the user has
 738 2012-10-04 14:56:24 <epscy> generally the OS tries to use RAM as efficiently as possible
 739 2012-10-04 14:56:44 <MC1984> well say 40$ of whatever the machine has
 740 2012-10-04 14:56:45 <kjj_> If you've got 4 gigs free for a ramdisk, I'm pretty sure it is quick
 741 2012-10-04 14:56:47 <MC1984> 40%
 742 2012-10-04 14:56:53 <epscy> and sometimes the bottleneck is the verifying which is cpu bound
 743 2012-10-04 14:57:08 <MC1984> currently it is often not
 744 2012-10-04 14:57:23 <MC1984> many machines have multi gigabytes of memory now
 745 2012-10-04 14:57:49 <MC1984> why not process raw blocks into the local database totally in ram, and then flush out to disk and do it again
 746 2012-10-04 14:58:07 <sipa> Eliel: i have a lot of historic mtgox data
 747 2012-10-04 14:58:11 <epscy> could end up being worse in terms of IO
 748 2012-10-04 14:58:54 <MC1984> the disk flush would be a contiguous write of a chunk of the DB, instead of actually building the DB on the disk
 749 2012-10-04 14:58:56 lggr has joined
 750 2012-10-04 14:59:28 <MC1984> so its like farming off the random access bit of DB building to the RAM which seems like a good idea
 751 2012-10-04 14:59:52 <Eliel> sipa: could you send it to me?
 752 2012-10-04 15:00:25 ThomasV_ has joined
 753 2012-10-04 15:01:05 <Eliel> MC1984: ultraprune database in memory is probably the most efficient way to do that, assuming you have enough RAM.
 754 2012-10-04 15:01:13 <kjj_> MC1984: that isn't a general solution, but for people that know what they are doing and have enough RAM, they can cut hours off their IBD
 755 2012-10-04 15:01:42 <MC1984> why cant bitcoin just take care of it automatically
 756 2012-10-04 15:02:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the operating system already does what you're thinking about there.
 757 2012-10-04 15:02:29 <MC1984> does it
 758 2012-10-04 15:02:34 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 759 2012-10-04 15:02:49 <kjj_> gmaxwell: no, it doesn't.  when you sync, the OS waits for the disk layer to accept the write.
 760 2012-10-04 15:02:59 <gmaxwell> The OS uses all the unallocated memory for caching and then reads are satisfied out of it.
 761 2012-10-04 15:03:09 <MC1984> why is random write performance still a factor then
 762 2012-10-04 15:03:27 <gmaxwell> MC1984: because it's slow.
 763 2012-10-04 15:03:32 <gmaxwell> And it still has to get done.
 764 2012-10-04 15:03:55 <gmaxwell> The data on disk needs to be consistent at all points because you could get shut down at any point.
 765 2012-10-04 15:04:41 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 766 2012-10-04 15:04:51 <MC1984> am i being stupid
 767 2012-10-04 15:04:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 768 2012-10-04 15:04:58 <kjj_> gmaxwell: that's the killer point, really.  when my RAM-only nodes download, they don't care about having consistent state at every point.  that's why I say it isn't a general solution
 769 2012-10-04 15:05:44 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 770 2012-10-04 15:06:16 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 771 2012-10-04 15:06:40 ThomasV has joined
 772 2012-10-04 15:06:42 aq83 has joined
 773 2012-10-04 15:07:01 <kjj_> I did an IBD on a spare windows box with 8 GB RAM, nothing else in particular running.  the disk churn was amazing
 774 2012-10-04 15:07:13 <sipa> kjj_: with ultraprune?
 775 2012-10-04 15:07:16 <sipa> and/or leveldb?
 776 2012-10-04 15:07:23 <kjj_> no, standard 0.7.0
 777 2012-10-04 15:07:34 <gmaxwell> kjj_: sure, it's doing lots of random sync writes.
 778 2012-10-04 15:07:46 <gmaxwell> But no amount of caching can fix that.
 779 2012-10-04 15:08:04 <kjj_> doing it totally in RAM, tmpfs on a linux box, and then copying it to disk at the end is many hours faster, even with a shitty CPU
 780 2012-10-04 15:08:31 lggr has joined
 781 2012-10-04 15:08:40 <kjj_> but that isn't a general solution.  we can't package up a RAMdisk driver for Windows and tell people to have 8+ GB in their machines
 782 2012-10-04 15:08:48 <MC1984> 02€3
 783 2012-10-04 15:09:04 <MC1984> fuck how do i input ascii codes
 784 2012-10-04 15:09:08 <gmaxwell> kjj_: In any case, reports on 0.7 are not longer interesting; we know the bdb backend is slow.
 785 2012-10-04 15:09:11 <sipa> kjj_: afaik, with ultraprune+leveldb there is no significant difference (minutes at most) between doing it in tmpfs or on disk
 786 2012-10-04 15:09:38 <sipa> given enough RAM to cache everything, of course
 787 2012-10-04 15:10:13 <sipa> though it's been a while since i did tmpfs benchmarks
 788 2012-10-04 15:10:20 <MC1984> Ƀ
 789 2012-10-04 15:10:27 <MC1984> this one
 790 2012-10-04 15:10:28 <kjj_> heh, I wasn't reporting it to you, I was telling MC1984 why we can't make the sync faster using the current system
 791 2012-10-04 15:10:54 <MC1984> Ƀ we cant just steal thailands symbol
 792 2012-10-04 15:10:55 <kjj_> I look forward to the new speed improvements
 793 2012-10-04 15:13:57 <epscy> will ultraprune reduce the size of the blockchain?
 794 2012-10-04 15:14:11 <epscy> and if so do we know by how much?
 795 2012-10-04 15:14:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 796 2012-10-04 15:14:20 <helo> the blockchain is still the same size
 797 2012-10-04 15:14:38 <helo> it is just a way of not including parts of the blockchain that aren't necessary
 798 2012-10-04 15:14:45 <epscy> i thought the point of pruning was to make it smaller
 799 2012-10-04 15:14:57 <epscy> helo: oh i see, you are being pedantic
 800 2012-10-04 15:15:29 <helo> it allows clients to deal with less data, but the blockchain itself is the same... i.e. the block hashes will not be computed based on the ultrapruned data, but the full chain
 801 2012-10-04 15:15:40 <sipa> epscy: ultraprune does not do pruning, but it supports it
 802 2012-10-04 15:16:18 <sipa> epscy: that is, implementing it would be trivial on top of it, but requires a few architectural things first, like new service bits on the network to make sure nodes don't try to bootstrap from pruned nodes
 803 2012-10-04 15:16:19 <epscy> sipa: oh ok, so when UP is released clients won't immediately see a reduction in the size of their blockchain?
 804 2012-10-04 15:16:29 <sipa> the default will certainly also be non-pruning
 805 2012-10-04 15:16:37 root2AFK has joined
 806 2012-10-04 15:16:37 <epscy> i see
 807 2012-10-04 15:16:56 <epscy> so we don't really have a solution to the large blockchain problem yet
 808 2012-10-04 15:17:02 <sipa> anyway, to give you a number: with pruning, the size requirement is something like 150 MB + 1.1*size_of_retained_blocks
 809 2012-10-04 15:17:17 <sipa> where you choose the number or size of the retained blocks yourself
 810 2012-10-04 15:17:27 <sipa> however, you cannot rescan or serve pruned blocks
 811 2012-10-04 15:17:40 <helo> epscy: the solution is for clients to only keep track of the list of unspent outputs, instead of all transaction history
 812 2012-10-04 15:17:46 <kjj_> any chance of the ultraprune system allowing concurrent access to the database?  I would love for my server to only need one copy of the chain
 813 2012-10-04 15:17:48 dvide has joined
 814 2012-10-04 15:17:51 <sipa> and if a reorg larger than your window of non-pruned blocks happens, you node basically dies and needs to restart from scratch
 815 2012-10-04 15:18:00 <helo> epscy: the trick is ensuring this list corresponds to the actual blockchain
 816 2012-10-04 15:18:02 <epscy> helo: does that have security implications?
 817 2012-10-04 15:18:10 <sipa> kjj_: i hope so, but not immediatelty
 818 2012-10-04 15:18:11 lggr has joined
 819 2012-10-04 15:18:43 denisx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 820 2012-10-04 15:18:53 <kjj_> sipa: cool.  in the mean time, I'm looking forward to running one full chain and one as heavily pruned as possible
 821 2012-10-04 15:19:02 denisx has joined
 822 2012-10-04 15:19:04 <helo> epscy: if done properly (hash tree in coinbase), the security is still very solid
 823 2012-10-04 15:19:21 enolan has joined
 824 2012-10-04 15:19:34 <sipa> helo: with a hash tree in the coinbase, you can do a SPV-level trust instant restart (without processing or downloading the history)
 825 2012-10-04 15:19:43 <sipa> this is NOT the same as the current zero-trust level we have
 826 2012-10-04 15:20:16 <helo> zero level trust?
 827 2012-10-04 15:20:22 OneFixt_ has joined
 828 2012-10-04 15:20:29 root2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 829 2012-10-04 15:20:30 <helo> oh, right...
 830 2012-10-04 15:20:34 <gmaxwell> helo: validating everything for yourself.
 831 2012-10-04 15:20:57 <gmaxwell> So it's not a replacement. But a middle step we don't have.
 832 2012-10-04 15:21:37 <phantomcircuit> lol
 833 2012-10-04 15:21:43 <phantomcircuit> pycryptopp has an ecdsa class
 834 2012-10-04 15:21:43 <helo> the plan is still to use txout-tree-in-coinbase at first, and then slowjam the entire blockchain verification?
 835 2012-10-04 15:21:46 <sipa> anyway, having a pruned node which you *know* validated the entire history has exactly the same security guarantee as what we have now
 836 2012-10-04 15:21:48 <phantomcircuit> no mention of key length
 837 2012-10-04 15:21:52 <phantomcircuit> no mention of which curve it is
 838 2012-10-04 15:22:02 root2AFK has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 839 2012-10-04 15:22:20 root2AFK has joined
 840 2012-10-04 15:22:44 <gmaxwell> helo: well, I can't say thats a concrete plan yet, because we don't yet have viable code for determinstic txout trees.
 841 2012-10-04 15:23:00 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
 842 2012-10-04 15:23:14 <sipa> helo: in my opinion, we'll first implement headers-sync-first and then full block downloading, which means you start with an SPV-like node, and end up with a potentially-pruned full node
 843 2012-10-04 15:23:14 <gmaxwell> Ultraprune structures the node around a txout tree, but uses a conventional database to store them; not a cryptographically certifiable database.
 844 2012-10-04 15:23:44 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 845 2012-10-04 15:23:59 <sipa> once we have utxo-in-coinbase, you can do a shortcut to get a pruned full node, but only at SPV level trust for its history
 846 2012-10-04 15:24:14 <epscy> sipa: so when to go back to my original question, how much smaller would a full pruned nodes blockchain be compared to the current blockchain?
 847 2012-10-04 15:24:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 848 2012-10-04 15:24:25 <sipa> 17:05:56 < sipa> anyway, to give you a number: with pruning, the size requirement is something like 150 MB + 1.1*size_of_retained_blocks
 849 2012-10-04 15:24:41 <epscy> sipa: heh, ok
 850 2012-10-04 15:24:49 dvide has quit ()
 851 2012-10-04 15:24:54 <sipa> that 150 MB is obviously bound to grow as well
 852 2012-10-04 15:25:07 <epscy> so we are still talking about > 2G
 853 2012-10-04 15:25:10 <epscy> GB
 854 2012-10-04 15:25:15 <gmaxwell> Thats more important futher in the future where catching up could take weeks or months of work even for an efficient implementation. Taking weeks to get to a new full node would kinda suck, utxo tree would allow a node to become 'externally full' very fast.
 855 2012-10-04 15:25:16 <sipa> depends how many blocks you want to retain
 856 2012-10-04 15:25:36 <sipa> if 10 blocks is enough for you, 200 MB will suffice
 857 2012-10-04 15:25:45 <sipa> though i wouldn't recommend that
 858 2012-10-04 15:25:46 <stamit> are you enjoying this, gmaxwell ?
 859 2012-10-04 15:26:02 <stamit> you seem to be on a roll these days
 860 2012-10-04 15:26:24 <MC1984> sipa thats a good idea
 861 2012-10-04 15:26:24 <sipa> what's the problem, stamit?
 862 2012-10-04 15:26:33 darsk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 863 2012-10-04 15:26:33 <helo> gmaxwell always explains like a boss
 864 2012-10-04 15:26:45 <MC1984> the painful bit of syncing a new node is that its useless until its done
 865 2012-10-04 15:26:59 <gmaxwell> MC1984: right, that can be fixed by starting as spv.
 866 2012-10-04 15:27:19 <sipa> gtg
 867 2012-10-04 15:27:23 <MC1984> if it was useful from minute 1 albeit at a reduced trust level, it could take weeks to sync in the backbround for all i care
 868 2012-10-04 15:27:25 <MC1984> its a good plan
 869 2012-10-04 15:27:40 lggr has joined
 870 2012-10-04 15:27:58 darsk1ez has joined
 871 2012-10-04 15:28:35 <helo> how will the "slow sync" speed be determined?
 872 2012-10-04 15:29:06 <gmaxwell> helo: I'd assume it would run as fast as possible in the background unless the users requested otherwise.
 873 2012-10-04 15:29:20 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 874 2012-10-04 15:29:38 <helo> it currently runs as fast as possible, and a lot of users complain about the impact on system responsiveness
 875 2012-10-04 15:29:46 root2AFK is now known as root2
 876 2012-10-04 15:29:54 <helo> so maybe just a little less quickly :)
 877 2012-10-04 15:30:10 <gmaxwell> helo: I believe that is mostly due to the OS having poor handling of thrashy IO load.
 878 2012-10-04 15:30:19 <gmaxwell> And it shouldn't be an issue with ultraprune.
 879 2012-10-04 15:30:39 <helo> ahh good
 880 2012-10-04 15:32:22 <helo> so ultraprune will allow a node to know it has fully verified everything, but what amount of pruning is healthy for the network?
 881 2012-10-04 15:32:36 toffoo has joined
 882 2012-10-04 15:32:36 <helo> ideally nobody would prune anything, so everybody would be able to bootstrap a new node
 883 2012-10-04 15:32:39 maaku has joined
 884 2012-10-04 15:33:02 <gmaxwell> I dunno. We actually can't handle pruned nodes at all yet.
 885 2012-10-04 15:33:20 <gmaxwell> Because we have no network mechenism to use to tell which nodes are full but can't feed you the whole historic chain.
 886 2012-10-04 15:33:32 <gmaxwell> The answer to that question will depend on how we handle that discovery
 887 2012-10-04 15:33:49 usagi has joined
 888 2012-10-04 15:33:55 MrMeow has joined
 889 2012-10-04 15:34:06 <helo> so it would be kind of a bittorrent style "partial blocks from many partial copies" approach?
 890 2012-10-04 15:34:21 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 891 2012-10-04 15:34:46 <helo> i guess difference is that bittorrent validates each block separately, but bitcoin has to validate blocks sequentially
 892 2012-10-04 15:35:43 <gmaxwell> Yes, that's something that has to be considerd (full validation and downloading would need to be decoupled)... and it can be difficult to create DOS resistance in that kind of system.
 893 2012-10-04 15:35:55 <gmaxwell> Bittorrent is basically only survivable because people don't DOS it.
 894 2012-10-04 15:36:09 <MC1984> gmaxwell people try
 895 2012-10-04 15:36:32 <MC1984> companies exists specifically to fuck with bittorrent
 896 2012-10-04 15:36:33 <helo> so pruned nodes in aggregate won't have an even distribution of blocks as with bittorrent... so latter blocks are more at risk for not being found
 897 2012-10-04 15:37:04 <MC1984> i do hope pruing remains off by default
 898 2012-10-04 15:37:08 <gmaxwell> MC1984: they don't actually screw with the base dht network; doing so would be unlawful, and there are quite a few people who would eagerly begin litigation against those companies.
 899 2012-10-04 15:37:15 lggr has joined
 900 2012-10-04 15:37:23 <helo> sounds like it needs to, but most users would be happy to reduce resource consumption
 901 2012-10-04 15:37:28 <helo> (needs to be off by default)
 902 2012-10-04 15:37:42 <stamit> gmaxwell, you have a spare $126?
 903 2012-10-04 15:37:43 <Luke-Jr> IMO to scale, *eventually* most nodes should (only) randomly prune and verify
 904 2012-10-04 15:37:51 <helo> health of network vs happiness of users
 905 2012-10-04 15:38:08 <gmaxwell> helo: if you're unhappy an option to turn it off can make you happy
 906 2012-10-04 15:38:12 <MC1984> if pruning was default, the actual chain would become endangered maybe
 907 2012-10-04 15:38:14 <stamit> my corpse is litigating, gmaxwell
 908 2012-10-04 15:38:19 <gmaxwell> helo: the software can also check for available resources.
 909 2012-10-04 15:38:50 torsthaldo has joined
 910 2012-10-04 15:38:56 <helo> thats not a bad idea... "We see you have only 500MB remaining. As much as we'd like you to be a full particpant in the network..."
 911 2012-10-04 15:39:07 <gmaxwell> helo: right.
 912 2012-10-04 15:39:43 <gmaxwell> helo: and if you still want to crank down your participation even though you have resources left— you start up with -im-selfish  or so.
 913 2012-10-04 15:40:12 k3t3r has joined
 914 2012-10-04 15:40:37 <stamit> either $126 or 24 BTC will do: 1B5fLitBtpYrMoyWi2n6wokUT6BBB5SUyq
 915 2012-10-04 15:40:52 RainbowDashh has quit (Quit: SLEEP MODE. puppy: it'd be wise to actual chat on here and not loiter.)
 916 2012-10-04 15:40:52 MiningBuddy has joined
 917 2012-10-04 15:40:54 <helo> it will be nice when the typical pc fully eclipses bitcoin's requirements
 918 2012-10-04 15:41:19 <Luke-Jr> ok, I've been ignoring the troll but I really wonder
 919 2012-10-04 15:41:26 <Luke-Jr> stamit: why $126 or 24 BTC, when $126 is about 10 BTC?
 920 2012-10-04 15:41:46 <stamit> trade took place some time ago
 921 2012-10-04 15:41:52 <stamit> price has changed, since that time
 922 2012-10-04 15:41:59 <helo> in 10 years we will hopefully be laughing that we spent so much time trying to reduce bitcoin's requirements
 923 2012-10-04 15:42:00 <stamit> the right thing is $126
 924 2012-10-04 15:42:13 <Luke-Jr> ok, back to ignoring
 925 2012-10-04 15:42:15 <stamit> but we can just consider the trade "cancelled" and in that case, i get 24 BTC
 926 2012-10-04 15:42:36 MrMeow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 927 2012-10-04 15:42:44 <kjj_> stamit: can you please take that elsewhere?  I'm curious about what you are talking about, but whatever it is, itis WAY off topic for this channel
 928 2012-10-04 15:42:51 <stamit> this is silly
 929 2012-10-04 15:42:59 <helo> ^
 930 2012-10-04 15:42:59 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: he's a troll, not sure who unbanned him
 931 2012-10-04 15:43:32 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 932 2012-10-04 15:43:33 <stamit> i ceased being human long ago, i guess
 933 2012-10-04 15:43:50 <MC1984> u wot m8
 934 2012-10-04 15:43:52 <stamit> didn't pick that
 935 2012-10-04 15:44:00 MrMeow has joined
 936 2012-10-04 15:45:15 MiningBuddy- has joined
 937 2012-10-04 15:45:47 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 938 2012-10-04 15:46:34 <stamit> i think gmaxwell may be doing me a favor, since, this way i get to chat with people i wouldn't have chatted with otherwise
 939 2012-10-04 15:46:45 dvide has joined
 940 2012-10-04 15:46:45 lggr has joined
 941 2012-10-04 15:46:53 <stamit> totally misunderstood him
 942 2012-10-04 15:46:58 <kjj_> post on the forums or something, but please don't crap up this channel
 943 2012-10-04 15:47:32 <gmaxwell> stamit: I'm not doing anything with you except ignoring you.
 944 2012-10-04 15:50:20 MiningBuddy- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 945 2012-10-04 15:50:52 MiningBuddy has joined
 946 2012-10-04 15:50:52 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
 947 2012-10-04 15:50:52 MiningBuddy has joined
 948 2012-10-04 15:52:10 dvide has quit ()
 949 2012-10-04 15:52:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 950 2012-10-04 15:53:22 stamit has left ("tired today")
 951 2012-10-04 15:56:15 lggr has joined
 952 2012-10-04 16:01:57 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 953 2012-10-04 16:02:23 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 954 2012-10-04 16:05:44 lggr has joined
 955 2012-10-04 16:06:39 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 956 2012-10-04 16:07:52 PK has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 957 2012-10-04 16:10:21 boupitch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 958 2012-10-04 16:10:38 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 959 2012-10-04 16:11:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 960 2012-10-04 16:13:33 root2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 961 2012-10-04 16:13:50 root2 has joined
 962 2012-10-04 16:15:14 lggr has joined
 963 2012-10-04 16:17:20 balrog has joined
 964 2012-10-04 16:21:08 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 965 2012-10-04 16:21:50 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 966 2012-10-04 16:22:04 sytse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 967 2012-10-04 16:24:27 lggr has joined
 968 2012-10-04 16:25:40 JZavala has joined
 969 2012-10-04 16:26:01 <epscy> helo: i think there is a good chance that if hardware continues to improve, either bitcoin will grow to use more resources or a better altcoin will crop up that makes use of them
 970 2012-10-04 16:26:34 <gmaxwell> epscy: for bitcoin's purposes its important that it be cheap.
 971 2012-10-04 16:27:14 <gmaxwell> Otherwise you can't get massive decenteralization of checking— too much incentive to let 'someone else' handle it— and the purpose is lost.
 972 2012-10-04 16:27:27 <gmaxwell> How cheap it needs to be— I dunno.
 973 2012-10-04 16:27:50 balrog has joined
 974 2012-10-04 16:30:31 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 975 2012-10-04 16:33:58 lggr has joined
 976 2012-10-04 16:34:50 <MC1984> the bitcoins forums have gone full retard
 977 2012-10-04 16:35:02 <kjj_> yeah, welcome to 2011
 978 2012-10-04 16:35:02 <MC1984> at some point
 979 2012-10-04 16:35:03 <gmaxwell> hm?
 980 2012-10-04 16:35:08 <MC1984> i dont think theyll ever come back
 981 2012-10-04 16:35:42 <Eliel> MC1984: there's still people writing there who're not retards but it's getting more difficult to pick them out from the crowd.
 982 2012-10-04 16:36:06 Guest90526 is now known as arij
 983 2012-10-04 16:36:15 arij has quit (Changing host)
 984 2012-10-04 16:36:15 arij has joined
 985 2012-10-04 16:37:17 osxorgate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 986 2012-10-04 16:38:16 <epscy> thye just have a lot of strong opinions
 987 2012-10-04 16:39:06 <phantomcircuit> Eliel, s/more difficult/impossible/
 988 2012-10-04 16:39:41 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 989 2012-10-04 16:40:51 m00p has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 990 2012-10-04 16:42:14 Joric has joined
 991 2012-10-04 16:43:12 lggr has joined
 992 2012-10-04 16:43:32 dvide has joined
 993 2012-10-04 16:44:57 JZavala has quit ()
 994 2012-10-04 16:49:06 EasyAt is now known as EasyAt|
 995 2012-10-04 16:50:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 996 2012-10-04 16:51:55 maaku has joined
 997 2012-10-04 16:52:48 lggr has joined
 998 2012-10-04 16:53:31 JZavala has joined
 999 2012-10-04 16:59:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1000 2012-10-04 16:59:57 boupitch has joined
1001 2012-10-04 17:02:14 lggr has joined
1002 2012-10-04 17:03:16 BlackPrapor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1003 2012-10-04 17:08:19 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1004 2012-10-04 17:10:15 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1005 2012-10-04 17:10:22 guruvan- is now known as guruvan
1006 2012-10-04 17:12:49 lggr has joined
1007 2012-10-04 17:15:43 da2ce7_d has joined
1008 2012-10-04 17:16:30 guruvan has quit (Quit: oh noessss)
1009 2012-10-04 17:17:48 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1010 2012-10-04 17:18:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1011 2012-10-04 17:20:45 guruvan has joined
1012 2012-10-04 17:20:50 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1013 2012-10-04 17:22:27 lggr has joined
1014 2012-10-04 17:22:53 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1015 2012-10-04 17:23:53 thepok has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1016 2012-10-04 17:25:36 Joric has quit ()
1017 2012-10-04 17:26:21 tower has quit (Disconnected by services)
1018 2012-10-04 17:26:39 tower has joined
1019 2012-10-04 17:27:11 Diablo-D3 has joined
1020 2012-10-04 17:28:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1021 2012-10-04 17:28:15 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1022 2012-10-04 17:31:13 Internet13 has joined
1023 2012-10-04 17:31:44 lggr has joined
1024 2012-10-04 17:32:30 freakazoid has joined
1025 2012-10-04 17:37:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1026 2012-10-04 17:38:31 vampireb has joined
1027 2012-10-04 17:41:16 lggr has joined
1028 2012-10-04 17:47:26 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1029 2012-10-04 17:50:39 lggr has joined
1030 2012-10-04 17:53:29 <helo> man, i'm so far behind on the ml
1031 2012-10-04 17:53:54 maaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1032 2012-10-04 17:54:26 maaku has joined
1033 2012-10-04 17:56:41 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1034 2012-10-04 18:00:11 lggr has joined
1035 2012-10-04 18:02:15 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
1036 2012-10-04 18:04:04 Luke-Jr has joined
1037 2012-10-04 18:04:50 CrazyMF has joined
1038 2012-10-04 18:05:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1039 2012-10-04 18:07:06 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1040 2012-10-04 18:09:42 lggr has joined
1041 2012-10-04 18:11:48 denisx_ has joined
1042 2012-10-04 18:13:30 f4z has left ()
1043 2012-10-04 18:14:50 MiningBuddy has joined
1044 2012-10-04 18:14:50 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
1045 2012-10-04 18:14:50 MiningBuddy has joined
1046 2012-10-04 18:15:05 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1047 2012-10-04 18:15:05 denisx_ is now known as denisx
1048 2012-10-04 18:15:20 [\\\] has joined
1049 2012-10-04 18:15:43 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1050 2012-10-04 18:19:01 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1051 2012-10-04 18:19:03 lggr has joined
1052 2012-10-04 18:25:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1053 2012-10-04 18:26:24 guruvan- has joined
1054 2012-10-04 18:28:46 lggr has joined
1055 2012-10-04 18:34:12 tucenaber has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1056 2012-10-04 18:34:43 tucenaber has joined
1057 2012-10-04 18:34:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1058 2012-10-04 18:36:08 D34TH has joined
1059 2012-10-04 18:39:23 lggr has joined
1060 2012-10-04 18:40:54 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1061 2012-10-04 18:41:41 AlexWaters has joined
1062 2012-10-04 18:45:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1063 2012-10-04 18:50:05 lggr has joined
1064 2012-10-04 18:50:35 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1065 2012-10-04 18:51:02 molecular has joined
1066 2012-10-04 18:54:47 k3t3r has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1067 2012-10-04 18:54:52 k3t3r_ has joined
1068 2012-10-04 18:54:58 k3t3r_ is now known as k3t3r
1069 2012-10-04 18:55:41 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1070 2012-10-04 18:58:07 pusle has joined
1071 2012-10-04 18:59:50 lggr has joined
1072 2012-10-04 19:03:55 MaxSan has joined
1073 2012-10-04 19:04:12 <MaxSan> anyone had any issues getting bitcoinjs-server installed?
1074 2012-10-04 19:06:01 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1075 2012-10-04 19:06:15 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1076 2012-10-04 19:07:05 toffoo has joined
1077 2012-10-04 19:07:42 EasyAt is now known as !~Easy@81.17.31.43|EasyAt
1078 2012-10-04 19:09:39 lggr has joined
1079 2012-10-04 19:10:03 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1080 2012-10-04 19:15:25 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1081 2012-10-04 19:19:03 lggr has joined
1082 2012-10-04 19:19:46 maaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1083 2012-10-04 19:19:52 maaku_ has joined
1084 2012-10-04 19:25:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1085 2012-10-04 19:26:58 maaku_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1086 2012-10-04 19:28:22 lggr has joined
1087 2012-10-04 19:28:27 maaku has joined
1088 2012-10-04 19:32:26 maaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1089 2012-10-04 19:32:34 maaku has joined
1090 2012-10-04 19:34:15 Motest003 has joined
1091 2012-10-04 19:34:41 Motest031 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1092 2012-10-04 19:35:49 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1093 2012-10-04 19:38:06 lggr has joined
1094 2012-10-04 19:44:12 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1095 2012-10-04 19:47:34 lggr has joined
1096 2012-10-04 19:47:42 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
1097 2012-10-04 19:47:51 EchoArwol has joined
1098 2012-10-04 19:49:22 maaku has joined
1099 2012-10-04 19:49:27 balrog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1100 2012-10-04 19:51:30 Joric has joined
1101 2012-10-04 19:52:37 <Joric> sipa, how many addresses with a nonzero balance did you get after pruning?
1102 2012-10-04 19:52:59 <sipa> Joric: i never calculated that value
1103 2012-10-04 19:53:16 <phantomcircuit> so im looking at pynode
1104 2012-10-04 19:53:22 <gmaxwell> Joric: ultraprune doesn't calculate balances. Did you mean to ask how many zero value txouts there are?
1105 2012-10-04 19:53:36 <phantomcircuit> the ecdsa implementation it's using is about 100x slower than equivalent c implementations
1106 2012-10-04 19:53:48 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1107 2012-10-04 19:54:07 <Joric> a number of txouts can be much bigger than that
1108 2012-10-04 19:54:14 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1109 2012-10-04 19:54:24 <sipa> Joric: yes, so?
1110 2012-10-04 19:54:35 <sipa> there are 2414144 unspent transaction outputs, in 1200786 not-fully spent transactions
1111 2012-10-04 19:54:40 D34TH has joined
1112 2012-10-04 19:55:14 <sipa> sec, let me calculate the different addresses
1113 2012-10-04 19:55:19 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: search the logs here for me cursing python for breaking amiller's reasoning about software complexity. :P
1114 2012-10-04 19:55:36 <phantomcircuit> lol
1115 2012-10-04 19:56:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what % of the tx outs can be pruned?
1116 2012-10-04 19:56:07 <helo> what reasoning was it?
1117 2012-10-04 19:56:49 <sipa> phantomcircuit: 80% or more, afaik
1118 2012-10-04 19:57:06 <gmaxwell> helo: I thought he was spending an unhealthy amount of time worrying about how to avoid script validation (which includes the signature checks, I assume) in his efforts to make pynode faster.
1119 2012-10-04 19:57:13 lggr has joined
1120 2012-10-04 19:58:09 balrog has joined
1121 2012-10-04 19:58:36 <gmaxwell> helo: e.g. he wanted to do stuff like having users manally provide checkpoints so they could skip more validation.  This is not generally an idea I like because it creates stupid behavior opportunity.
1122 2012-10-04 19:58:40 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1123 2012-10-04 19:58:40 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, too be fair script validiation is the bulk of the work
1124 2012-10-04 19:58:41 <phantomcircuit> :)
1125 2012-10-04 19:58:59 <sipa> after recent optimizations it certainly is
1126 2012-10-04 19:59:17 <phantomcircuit> i meant in terms of coding effort
1127 2012-10-04 19:59:23 <sipa> oh, right
1128 2012-10-04 19:59:33 <sipa> not sure; block connection logic can be tricky
1129 2012-10-04 19:59:34 <gmaxwell> For an ultraprune-ish system it is— sure.
1130 2012-10-04 19:59:51 <sipa> but script validation requires an unholy amount of testing
1131 2012-10-04 20:00:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: what he wanted to do was 'solve' the performance by having users provide checkpoint values to just skip more of it. Which doesn't address any of the testing concerns.
1132 2012-10-04 20:00:23 stamit has joined
1133 2012-10-04 20:00:30 <gmaxwell> So there, you probably just gave him a 50x speedup in script validation. :P
1134 2012-10-04 20:00:39 <stamit> you still talking here?
1135 2012-10-04 20:00:47 <stamit> why aren't you banned yet?
1136 2012-10-04 20:01:06 <stamit> someone didn't find me on -otc and he thought i wasn't connected
1137 2012-10-04 20:01:14 <stamit> you caused me trouble today, gmaxwell
1138 2012-10-04 20:02:00 stamit has left ()
1139 2012-10-04 20:02:20 D34TH has joined
1140 2012-10-04 20:02:57 <sipa> Joric: 909461 different txout scripts after pruning
1141 2012-10-04 20:03:09 <Joric> cool less than a million
1142 2012-10-04 20:03:13 <gmaxwell> Sorry about him. Unfortunately I didn't do anything to deserve this except ban him from -OTC weeks ago because he was earnestly offering people bounties for attack paypal employees. :( Now I'm apparently his preferred target for everything that goes wrong in his life.
1143 2012-10-04 20:03:26 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1144 2012-10-04 20:03:31 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, heh
1145 2012-10-04 20:03:58 <sipa> Joric: that does include txouts with amount=0, so the number of addresses with nonzero balance may be slightly less
1146 2012-10-04 20:04:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: higher reuse factor than I expected.
1147 2012-10-04 20:04:05 <sipa> indeed
1148 2012-10-04 20:04:10 <sipa> same here
1149 2012-10-04 20:04:33 <phantomcircuit> people are lazy
1150 2012-10-04 20:04:36 <phantomcircuit> also
1151 2012-10-04 20:04:46 <phantomcircuit> satoshidice uses the same addresses over and over again
1152 2012-10-04 20:05:01 <sipa> so do almost all personal donations (my own included)
1153 2012-10-04 20:05:22 <Joric> ~20 megs considering 20 bytes hash + 4 bytes value
1154 2012-10-04 20:05:32 <sipa> what 4 bytes value?
1155 2012-10-04 20:06:29 stamit has joined
1156 2012-10-04 20:06:42 lggr has joined
1157 2012-10-04 20:06:44 stamit has quit (Quit: stamit)
1158 2012-10-04 20:07:02 <Joric> oh good thinking it's not needed really
1159 2012-10-04 20:07:47 <sipa> not sure what use is a list of all used addresses?
1160 2012-10-04 20:08:12 <Joric> i just stumbled upon https://sites.google.com/site/buriedkeys/home was wondering how much memory i'll need for bruteforcing
1161 2012-10-04 20:08:57 <gmaxwell> you probably need far less memory.
1162 2012-10-04 20:09:38 pusle has quit ()
1163 2012-10-04 20:09:57 <gmaxwell> for a million entries and a error rate of only 1e-5 you only need a bloom filter of about 3MB.
1164 2012-10-04 20:10:14 stamit has joined
1165 2012-10-04 20:10:27 <stamit> hey, stupid freak, gmaxwell, how are you today?
1166 2012-10-04 20:10:40 <stamit> how are you in your cave?
1167 2012-10-04 20:10:45 andrew_wmf has joined
1168 2012-10-04 20:11:00 <stamit> that's how you called me, gmaxwell
1169 2012-10-04 20:11:02 <stamit> "stupid" and "freak"
1170 2012-10-04 20:11:06 <JFK911> im sure gmaxwell's cia cave is quite comfy
1171 2012-10-04 20:11:18 <arij> gmaxwell is CIA?
1172 2012-10-04 20:11:21 <stamit> and i got the cave talk recently too
1173 2012-10-04 20:11:21 <JFK911> no doubt
1174 2012-10-04 20:11:22 * arij posts on the forums
1175 2012-10-04 20:11:38 <Joric> i'm the FBI then
1176 2012-10-04 20:11:44 <D34TH> im CFIP
1177 2012-10-04 20:11:44 <arij> no one cares
1178 2012-10-04 20:11:51 <JFK911> really joric what fbi base do you live on
1179 2012-10-04 20:11:56 <stamit> i wonder how much is a CIA salary
1180 2012-10-04 20:11:57 <gmaxwell> JFK911: technically it's not a "cave", it's a bunker.
1181 2012-10-04 20:12:13 <wizkid057> ...
1182 2012-10-04 20:12:41 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1183 2012-10-04 20:13:29 <phantomcircuit> this will be entertaining
1184 2012-10-04 20:13:34 <gmaxwell> :(
1185 2012-10-04 20:13:55 <gmaxwell> ("not my kind of entertainment")
1186 2012-10-04 20:14:07 <phantomcircuit> i have myself a nice cup of tea
1187 2012-10-04 20:14:10 <phantomcircuit> and a giant ban hammer
1188 2012-10-04 20:14:23 <phantomcircuit> but instead im just going to kick him around with fun messages
1189 2012-10-04 20:14:36 <Joric> oh, addresses probably can be filtered by the date of appearance that will reduce the amount of data
1190 2012-10-04 20:15:14 <gmaxwell> Joric: so what I'd do is just take windows of the hash value and use those to set bits in a bloom filter. A 3MB bloom filter will give you a very low hitrate, and it will require only one memory look up for most exclusions.
1191 2012-10-04 20:16:32 lggr has joined
1192 2012-10-04 20:17:02 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1193 2012-10-04 20:17:37 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1194 2012-10-04 20:18:29 stamit has joined
1195 2012-10-04 20:22:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1196 2012-10-04 20:23:13 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1197 2012-10-04 20:23:31 Lachesis has joined
1198 2012-10-04 20:26:04 lggr has joined
1199 2012-10-04 20:26:39 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1200 2012-10-04 20:32:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1201 2012-10-04 20:34:42 Lyspooner has joined
1202 2012-10-04 20:35:21 usagi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1203 2012-10-04 20:35:31 lggr has joined
1204 2012-10-04 20:36:44 stamit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1205 2012-10-04 20:41:19 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1206 2012-10-04 20:45:00 lggr has joined
1207 2012-10-04 20:49:14 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1208 2012-10-04 20:50:22 [\\\] has joined
1209 2012-10-04 20:51:24 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1210 2012-10-04 20:52:34 <helo> does -loadblock empty the previous blk*.dat?
1211 2012-10-04 20:52:55 <sipa> no
1212 2012-10-04 20:53:35 <sipa> it really just imports blocks from a file
1213 2012-10-04 20:53:38 stamit has joined
1214 2012-10-04 20:53:45 <sipa> as if they were received by network
1215 2012-10-04 20:54:23 <helo> ty
1216 2012-10-04 20:54:32 lggr has joined
1217 2012-10-04 21:01:24 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1218 2012-10-04 21:01:31 <Joric> what's in blkindex.dat? tx_hash -> tx_offset? maybe it's possible to avoid redownloading blockchain without using -loadblock?
1219 2012-10-04 21:02:40 eb3kk has joined
1220 2012-10-04 21:02:54 <sipa> Joric: blkindex.dat is the thing that is hard to compute; it contains basically everything
1221 2012-10-04 21:03:00 <sipa> tx_hash -> tx_offset
1222 2012-10-04 21:03:06 <sipa> block_hash -> block_offset
1223 2012-10-04 21:03:29 <sipa> and most of all, tx_hash -> [tx_offsets_of_transactions_that_spent_its_outputs]
1224 2012-10-04 21:04:07 lggr has joined
1225 2012-10-04 21:06:46 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1226 2012-10-04 21:07:38 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1227 2012-10-04 21:08:11 bitcoinz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1228 2012-10-04 21:09:41 Diapolo has joined
1229 2012-10-04 21:10:19 <Joric> miners must pay 50% of block reward to sipa for improving all that satoshi shit
1230 2012-10-04 21:10:25 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1231 2012-10-04 21:11:10 <CrazyMF> say what?
1232 2012-10-04 21:11:29 <CrazyMF> what's sipa?
1233 2012-10-04 21:11:58 <edcba> a banking agreement in europe iirc :)
1234 2012-10-04 21:12:13 <edcba> also sipa is sipa on this channel...
1235 2012-10-04 21:12:16 <eb3kk> wow
1236 2012-10-04 21:12:43 <Eliel> CrazyMF: no, the banking agreement is SEPA.
1237 2012-10-04 21:12:50 <CrazyMF> so what exactly 50% block reward has to do with SEPA ?
1238 2012-10-04 21:12:57 <edcba> lol
1239 2012-10-04 21:13:17 <CrazyMF> I'm ref'ing to what Joric said
1240 2012-10-04 21:13:47 lggr has joined
1241 2012-10-04 21:14:15 * sipa is sipa
1242 2012-10-04 21:14:37 <CrazyMF> and keep it that way
1243 2012-10-04 21:14:42 <CrazyMF> no way i'm giving you 50%
1244 2012-10-04 21:14:53 darsk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1245 2012-10-04 21:15:07 <sipa> and you shouldn't
1246 2012-10-04 21:15:12 <BlueMatt> yes he should
1247 2012-10-04 21:15:27 <edcba> sipa will just forget to give you bitcoins :)
1248 2012-10-04 21:17:17 <gmaxwell> 14:04 < sipa> and you shouldn't
1249 2012-10-04 21:17:30 <gmaxwell> Right, you should give him 75%
1250 2012-10-04 21:18:01 Diapolo has left ()
1251 2012-10-04 21:18:37 MiningBuddy- has joined
1252 2012-10-04 21:19:07 noagendamarket has joined
1253 2012-10-04 21:19:25 <Joric> the speed of sync is ludicrous atm and it's only 2012
1254 2012-10-04 21:19:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1255 2012-10-04 21:19:56 <BlueMatt> use a threaded sig checking branch
1256 2012-10-04 21:20:00 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1257 2012-10-04 21:20:08 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj/ultraprune/etc
1258 2012-10-04 21:20:57 darkskiez has joined
1259 2012-10-04 21:21:44 <Joric> does sig checking really affects speed so much? is there a key to skip it? i wonder how faster it will be
1260 2012-10-04 21:21:56 darsk1ez has joined
1261 2012-10-04 21:22:12 <edcba> i guess the problem is how it retrieve data and check sigs
1262 2012-10-04 21:22:18 Tril has joined
1263 2012-10-04 21:22:21 <edcba> ie alternating retrieve data then check
1264 2012-10-04 21:22:23 <BlueMatt> sig checking (after the latest checkpoint) is the speed
1265 2012-10-04 21:22:35 <sipa> Joric: in ultraprune on a not ridiculously slow disk, it's like 90%
1266 2012-10-04 21:22:39 <BlueMatt> (unless you are doing something stupid like putting .bitcoin on a flash drive or something)
1267 2012-10-04 21:23:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: parallel signature checking is for now not in ultraprune, by the way
1268 2012-10-04 21:23:16 <BlueMatt> oh, thought it was in that pull...
1269 2012-10-04 21:23:18 <MC1984> itsaconspiracy.jpg
1270 2012-10-04 21:23:18 toffoo has quit ()
1271 2012-10-04 21:23:28 lggr has joined
1272 2012-10-04 21:23:31 <sipa> there were some problems, and i want ultraprune sooner than i may have time to fix parallel sig checking
1273 2012-10-04 21:23:42 <sipa> basically, i first want to refactor some things
1274 2012-10-04 21:23:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen sipa: I thought there was a better way to recover thoroughly corrupt BDB databases than dump + restore?
1275 2012-10-04 21:23:59 <MC1984> bitcoinforums
1276 2012-10-04 21:24:05 <Joric> i wonder does bitcoinfoundation pay the salary now
1277 2012-10-04 21:24:12 <BlueMatt> heh...refactor for parallel sig checking
1278 2012-10-04 21:24:49 <sipa> BlueMatt: no, i want a global block index cache, which keeps dirty blocks and indexes in memory, and flushes them periodically ad synchronously
1279 2012-10-04 21:24:51 <jgarzik> see DB_RECOVER_FATAL
1280 2012-10-04 21:24:53 <jgarzik> etc.
1281 2012-10-04 21:25:03 jurov is now known as away!~jurov@rini17.broker.freenet6.net|jurov
1282 2012-10-04 21:25:20 <jgarzik> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E17076_02/html/programmer_reference/transapp_recovery.html
1283 2012-10-04 21:25:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's the only way i know to make bitcoin fully consistent on disk during IBD
1284 2012-10-04 21:25:36 Lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427])
1285 2012-10-04 21:25:37 <jgarzik> Joric: no
1286 2012-10-04 21:25:56 <sipa> maybe gavin's, but not yet, afaik
1287 2012-10-04 21:26:11 boupitch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1288 2012-10-04 21:26:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: is that a leveldb problem or...?
1289 2012-10-04 21:27:46 <sipa> with?
1290 2012-10-04 21:27:48 Tril has left ()
1291 2012-10-04 21:28:07 <sipa> no bitcoin is currently not disk-consistent at every point in time during IBD
1292 2012-10-04 21:28:07 <BlueMatt> that's the only way i know to make bitcoin fully consistent on disk during IBD
1293 2012-10-04 21:28:15 <BlueMatt> really? where do we break that?
1294 2012-10-04 21:28:35 <sipa> we don't sync after every block write during IBD (it'd kill performance completely)
1295 2012-10-04 21:28:50 <sipa> so there is a chance blkindex.dat is updated but the block is never written to disk
1296 2012-10-04 21:29:05 <BlueMatt> oh, yea, dur...
1297 2012-10-04 21:29:29 <sipa> ultraprune+leveldb improves that (it syncs a bit more), but it also makes the problem harder to solve as there are 2 leveldb database that can get out of sync with eachother
1298 2012-10-04 21:29:39 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1299 2012-10-04 21:29:56 <sipa> such a block cache would both improve performance (block validation doesn't need to wait for it to be written to disk), and consistency
1300 2012-10-04 21:30:07 <sipa> and it would make parallel sig checking a lot easier to
1301 2012-10-04 21:30:12 <sipa> so i want that first
1302 2012-10-04 21:30:16 <BlueMatt> fair enough
1303 2012-10-04 21:30:30 lggr has joined
1304 2012-10-04 21:30:53 MiningBuddy has joined
1305 2012-10-04 21:33:17 <Eliel> was it Slush who built the first mining pool?
1306 2012-10-04 21:33:20 MiningBuddy- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1307 2012-10-04 21:33:20 MrMeow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1308 2012-10-04 21:33:26 <jgarzik> Eliel: first public one, I think so
1309 2012-10-04 21:33:57 <jgarzik> sipa: I forget... did you turn on leveldb sync'ing?  Did that kill performance?
1310 2012-10-04 21:34:05 MrMeow has joined
1311 2012-10-04 21:34:06 <jgarzik> default for leveldb sync is off, iirc
1312 2012-10-04 21:34:23 <sipa> jgarzik: i sync leveldb right after syncing the block file
1313 2012-10-04 21:34:47 <jgarzik> sipa: fdatasync under the hood, for both, I presume?
1314 2012-10-04 21:34:49 <jgarzik> (on Linux)
1315 2012-10-04 21:35:01 <phantomcircuit> jgwhat % of the time would you say pynode is spending in ecdsa ops?
1316 2012-10-04 21:35:24 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, but that's not under our control for leveldb (it always does fdatasync when available)
1317 2012-10-04 21:35:47 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: DB_RECOVER_FATAL doesn't work for the cases I care about (copied .dat files without -detachdb or running incompatible version of BDB)
1318 2012-10-04 21:36:26 <sipa> Eliel: puddinpop had an earlier pool, but it used a very different mechanism
1319 2012-10-04 21:36:40 <sipa> Eliel: slush's pool was definitely the first to use the concept of shares
1320 2012-10-04 21:36:49 <Eliel> how did puddinpop's pool work?
1321 2012-10-04 21:37:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1322 2012-10-04 21:37:14 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1323 2012-10-04 21:37:16 <Eliel> do you have a link to bitcointalk.org thread from the time?
1324 2012-10-04 21:37:38 occulta has joined
1325 2012-10-04 21:37:49 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: 110%
1326 2012-10-04 21:37:55 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: just kidding.
1327 2012-10-04 21:38:08 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: python sig checking cost is 90% data structure copying, not ECDSA
1328 2012-10-04 21:38:23 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1329 2012-10-04 21:38:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ok
1330 2012-10-04 21:38:24 topace has quit (Changing host)
1331 2012-10-04 21:38:24 topace has joined
1332 2012-10-04 21:38:30 CodesInChaos has joined
1333 2012-10-04 21:38:31 MiningBuddy has joined
1334 2012-10-04 21:38:31 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
1335 2012-10-04 21:38:31 MiningBuddy has joined
1336 2012-10-04 21:39:07 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: SignatureHash requires copying then modifying CTransaction.  python is achingly slow at this.
1337 2012-10-04 21:39:38 lggr has joined
1338 2012-10-04 21:39:39 <phantomcircuit> using copy.copy?
1339 2012-10-04 21:39:49 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I've tried all sorts of hacks...  cPickle the CTransaction, then un-pickle during SignatureHash.  copy, deepcopy, ...
1340 2012-10-04 21:39:58 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: the fastest so far is manually coded copy
1341 2012-10-04 21:44:08 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1342 2012-10-04 21:44:53 balrog has joined
1343 2012-10-04 21:45:30 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1344 2012-10-04 21:45:39 MiningBuddy has joined
1345 2012-10-04 21:46:15 EchoArwol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1346 2012-10-04 21:46:17 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1347 2012-10-04 21:46:31 m00p has joined
1348 2012-10-04 21:46:33 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1349 2012-10-04 21:47:07 PeanutPower has joined
1350 2012-10-04 21:49:49 lggr has joined
1351 2012-10-04 21:50:22 jose__ has joined
1352 2012-10-04 21:51:05 robocoin has quit (Quit: 3>_<3)
1353 2012-10-04 21:51:52 <Eliel> It's interesting reading the conversation between tcatm and puddinpop at the beginning of this thread :) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1458.0
1354 2012-10-04 21:51:54 usagi has joined
1355 2012-10-04 21:52:55 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1356 2012-10-04 21:52:55 <jgarzik> Eliel: Historical trivia:  I gave puddinpop 10,000 BTC to open source his code
1357 2012-10-04 21:53:15 <jgarzik> not worth it, in hindsight, as he largely disappeared rather than continuing to contribute to the community
1358 2012-10-04 21:54:33 <Eliel> this metahash stuff he's using will probably need some pondering to understand. Probably not worth the time :)
1359 2012-10-04 21:56:34 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1360 2012-10-04 21:56:40 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1361 2012-10-04 21:56:57 <Ferroh> bitcoind is switching from BerkelyDB to something else, right?
1362 2012-10-04 21:57:52 <Eliel> Ferroh: correct
1363 2012-10-04 21:58:02 <Ferroh> is this primarily due to performance concerns?
1364 2012-10-04 21:58:19 <MC1984> jgarzik dude thats 130k dollars now
1365 2012-10-04 21:58:19 balrog has joined
1366 2012-10-04 21:59:36 <jgarzik> Ferroh: leveldb, for reasons of performance, stability across versions, ...
1367 2012-10-04 21:59:54 <sipa> and general 21st-century-ness
1368 2012-10-04 21:59:55 <jgarzik> though if we had imported bdb into the source tree, we would get much of the time benefit ;p
1369 2012-10-04 22:00:07 <jgarzik> s/time/same/
1370 2012-10-04 22:00:10 lggr has joined
1371 2012-10-04 22:00:50 <Eliel> yes, but a lot more code to import.
1372 2012-10-04 22:00:59 <sipa> and not the performance improvements
1373 2012-10-04 22:01:27 xisalty_ has joined
1374 2012-10-04 22:02:28 <Ferroh> are you saying that leveldb will be imported into the source tree?
1375 2012-10-04 22:03:00 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1376 2012-10-04 22:04:04 xisalty has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1377 2012-10-04 22:04:26 <sipa> it's around 18k lines of code
1378 2012-10-04 22:04:43 <sipa> bitcoin itself is twice that
1379 2012-10-04 22:04:53 <Ferroh> yeah that's very lightweight
1380 2012-10-04 22:05:00 Zarutian has joined
1381 2012-10-04 22:05:55 <Ferroh> oh, this isn't an SQL database
1382 2012-10-04 22:06:06 <Ferroh> sorry, I'm just reading about leveldb for the first time now
1383 2012-10-04 22:06:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1384 2012-10-04 22:07:10 B0g4r7_ has joined
1385 2012-10-04 22:07:15 <Ferroh> are you sure this is even 18k lines?
1386 2012-10-04 22:07:20 <sipa> it's a key-value store
1387 2012-10-04 22:07:21 <Ferroh> are you including the test code in that 18k?
1388 2012-10-04 22:07:24 <sipa> yes
1389 2012-10-04 22:07:30 <Joric> will it replace berkeley db?
1390 2012-10-04 22:07:36 <Ferroh> the unit tests are a massive chunk of the code,
1391 2012-10-04 22:07:42 <Ferroh> so you probably dont need to include that
1392 2012-10-04 22:07:56 <sipa> Joric: at least for blkindex.dat
1393 2012-10-04 22:08:06 <sipa> wallet.dat is a different beast
1394 2012-10-04 22:08:20 <maaku> wait, why import leveldb into bitcoin source tree?
1395 2012-10-04 22:08:20 <Joric> oh right sorry i forgot about wallet
1396 2012-10-04 22:08:30 <maaku> why not static link? am i missing something?
1397 2012-10-04 22:08:42 <Joric> good point
1398 2012-10-04 22:09:27 <Ferroh> maaku, presumably so that users are guaranteed to have the exact version of leveldb that the bitcoindevs are using?
1399 2012-10-04 22:09:40 lggr has joined
1400 2012-10-04 22:09:51 <maaku> that's why you static link against a specific version
1401 2012-10-04 22:10:00 <maaku> there's no need to clutter up the bitcoin source tree
1402 2012-10-04 22:11:13 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1403 2012-10-04 22:11:13 B0g4r7_ is now known as B0g4r7
1404 2012-10-04 22:11:36 copumpkin has joined
1405 2012-10-04 22:12:01 MrMeow has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1406 2012-10-04 22:12:17 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1407 2012-10-04 22:12:24 <sipa> maaku: there are voices for both cases; i don't care
1408 2012-10-04 22:13:10 <sipa> i mean, we are statically linking against it, after building it from a subdir
1409 2012-10-04 22:13:20 <sipa> (in the current pullreq)
1410 2012-10-04 22:14:06 <stamit> anyone wants to give /me/ any bitcoins, to open /my/ source code?
1411 2012-10-04 22:14:23 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1412 2012-10-04 22:15:53 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1413 2012-10-04 22:16:51 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1414 2012-10-04 22:19:24 <maaku> MC1984: it wasn't back then
1415 2012-10-04 22:19:31 xblitz has joined
1416 2012-10-04 22:19:35 <maaku> whoops n/m
1417 2012-10-04 22:19:54 <gmaxwell> maaku: static linking does nothing for people who build it themselves; and it's not a normal package that anyone distributes. For better or worse the behavior of the database is part of the distributed algorithim. It's a decision that could be changed later if it made sense though..
1418 2012-10-04 22:20:01 lggr has joined
1419 2012-10-04 22:20:14 <gmaxwell> e.g. if leveldb went back into active development; got shipped by OSes with promises of compatiblity... etc.
1420 2012-10-04 22:26:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1421 2012-10-04 22:26:34 tower has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1422 2012-10-04 22:27:18 <xblitz> I've posted this on bitcointalk dev forum.. but i figured it would be more interactive if i ask here (will post answers on the forum afterwards) ... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115488.0    so how can I resolve the address from different inputs of a transaction from a CWalletTx or CMerkleTx ... ?
1423 2012-10-04 22:27:28 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1424 2012-10-04 22:27:58 guruvan- is now known as guruvan
1425 2012-10-04 22:28:02 tower has joined
1426 2012-10-04 22:28:41 <sipa> xblitz: look at its vin's, those contain a prevout; look up its hash, fetch the transaction from disk, look at its prevout.n's output's scriptPubKey
1427 2012-10-04 22:28:55 <sipa> xblitz: and it's a really bad idea to rely on that information
1428 2012-10-04 22:29:12 guruvan_ has joined
1429 2012-10-04 22:29:16 <xblitz> ohhhh makes sense...
1430 2012-10-04 22:29:24 lggr has joined
1431 2012-10-04 22:29:30 <xblitz> bad idea?  why?
1432 2012-10-04 22:29:36 <sipa> what do you need it for?
1433 2012-10-04 22:30:10 <xblitz> just to display more information on a transaction.. a bit like what blockchain.info does
1434 2012-10-04 22:30:26 <sipa> for debugging purposes it's fine of course
1435 2012-10-04 22:30:36 <sipa> but it's not a "from"
1436 2012-10-04 22:31:06 <sipa> in case of a web wallet, the from(s) are not addresses that are necessarily under control of the sender, for example
1437 2012-10-04 22:31:13 <xblitz> i've seen this before...  but i cant seems to grasp why it wouldnt be a from..
1438 2012-10-04 22:31:23 <xblitz> yeah that i know
1439 2012-10-04 22:31:43 <xblitz> i dont want to know from "who"  but from "what adress"
1440 2012-10-04 22:32:04 <sipa> in that case, there's no problem
1441 2012-10-04 22:32:13 <sipa> it's just that many people want to use to send coins back to, for example
1442 2012-10-04 22:32:56 <xblitz> ahhh okay okay..  that i understand quite well :) thanks
1443 2012-10-04 22:33:11 <jose__> sipa they could if sendfrom only used the private keys corresponding to the tagged addresses in that account. That would be account heaven for me.
1444 2012-10-04 22:33:14 <gmaxwell> xblitz: take care that you don't assume you can turn the scriptpubkey into an address.
1445 2012-10-04 22:33:36 <sipa> jose__: even then, that would be a bad idea
1446 2012-10-04 22:33:45 <sipa> jose__: you're not supposed to reuse addresses anyway
1447 2012-10-04 22:34:22 <sipa> jose__: what you're describing is separate wallets; a feature planned for a long time, but just not a priority now
1448 2012-10-04 22:34:23 <gmaxwell> xblitz: e.g. make sure you handle the conversion of scriptPubKey -> address failing.
1449 2012-10-04 22:34:42 <jose__> kind of mini wallets == accounts
1450 2012-10-04 22:34:57 AJNoz_ has joined
1451 2012-10-04 22:35:00 <jose__> optional
1452 2012-10-04 22:35:01 <AJNoz_> hello?
1453 2012-10-04 22:35:20 <sipa> jose__: no, just separate wallets would be exactly what you want; funds that are entirely separate
1454 2012-10-04 22:35:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1455 2012-10-04 22:35:28 <sipa> but that is not what accounts are
1456 2012-10-04 22:35:32 <sipa> nor what they are designed for
1457 2012-10-04 22:35:41 <AJNoz_> wow, aplacewhere people actually talk andhelp
1458 2012-10-04 22:36:18 meLon has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1459 2012-10-04 22:36:47 <AJNoz_> can anyone possiibly help me with pushpool being dumb?
1460 2012-10-04 22:37:10 <jose__> how hard is to adapt senfrom behaviour ?
1461 2012-10-04 22:38:09 <sipa> jose__: you can do it using the raw transaction interface yourself
1462 2012-10-04 22:38:24 <xblitz> gmaxwell: what are the non resolvable scriptPubKey examples?  mining blocks ?
1463 2012-10-04 22:38:38 lggr has joined
1464 2012-10-04 22:39:07 <sipa> xblitz: multisig (non-P2SH), weird transactions, ...
1465 2012-10-04 22:39:20 <sipa> P2SH transaction do have an address but not a traditional one
1466 2012-10-04 22:40:02 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1467 2012-10-04 22:40:17 <xblitz> yeah i read about that.. okay seems good.. I'll go try it out now...  I had seen the thing about prevout but i think i forgot to lookin to it
1468 2012-10-04 22:40:52 <gmaxwell> xblitz: if you didn't author the transaction you can make no assumptions about the structure of the inputs scripts.. they could be crazy-whatever.
1469 2012-10-04 22:41:10 <gmaxwell> 'cause the person sending them to you knew how to satisify them but you might have no clue.
1470 2012-10-04 22:41:45 <xblitz> hummm yeah i think i understand....
1471 2012-10-04 22:42:37 <xblitz> so in all.. I will handle non resolvable scripts so it doesnt crash..
1472 2012-10-04 22:45:23 dvide has quit ()
1473 2012-10-04 22:45:29 da2ce796 has joined
1474 2012-10-04 22:45:39 <kjj_> Did Sergio run his inverse signature attack past anyone?  Is he worried about an extension attack on SHA256?
1475 2012-10-04 22:45:57 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1476 2012-10-04 22:46:21 k3t3r has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427])
1477 2012-10-04 22:46:58 <jose__> thanks sipa. seems easier to reuse the c++ code for sendfrom and then make the rpc interface. I might do that. my bet is account confusion would be over.
1478 2012-10-04 22:47:13 jurov is now known as jurov|away
1479 2012-10-04 22:47:25 njbartlett has joined
1480 2012-10-04 22:47:43 <gmaxwell> kjj_: yes, and your response to him is correct.
1481 2012-10-04 22:48:26 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1482 2012-10-04 22:48:38 <kjj_> gmaxwell: That sounds like the sort of thing that Kamensky or whoever might have found, thinking he was onto something, only to realize that something else made it safe
1483 2012-10-04 22:48:48 <gmaxwell> kjj_: and there are many forms of malleability.
1484 2012-10-04 22:49:05 <gmaxwell> I'm a little confused by your response to him; did he edit his message?
1485 2012-10-04 22:49:09 lggr has joined
1486 2012-10-04 22:49:31 <kjj_> I don't think so
1487 2012-10-04 22:49:46 <kjj_> he mentions the transaction hash specifically
1488 2012-10-04 22:50:20 <gmaxwell> Right but why'd you mention "inverted s signature" ?
1489 2012-10-04 22:50:31 <kjj_> oh, that
1490 2012-10-04 22:50:37 <kjj_> because he mentioned it in a different thread
1491 2012-10-04 22:50:42 <gmaxwell> ah. okay.
1492 2012-10-04 22:50:48 <kjj_> (r,s) is valid, but so is (r, -s mod K)
1493 2012-10-04 22:50:52 <kjj_> or whatever
1494 2012-10-04 22:51:38 <sipa> but so is (0x00 + r, s)
1495 2012-10-04 22:51:54 <xblitz> oh any good IDE to use to load the whole bitcoind project and have auto complete  for the custom classes/methods?
1496 2012-10-04 22:51:56 <gmaxwell> Sure, there are a whole bunch of ways signatures are currently malleiable; as far as any of us all know they're all equivalent and could be used to annoy people but not to usefully attack except as a kind of limited DOS.
1497 2012-10-04 22:51:57 <kjj_> but if the txid is the double hash of the FULL transaction, they'll be different transactions, and obvious doubles
1498 2012-10-04 22:52:13 <gmaxwell> kjj_: yep.
1499 2012-10-04 22:52:22 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1500 2012-10-04 22:52:39 <kjj_> since he mentions the hash, I'm wondering if he (thinks) there is an extension attack on the hash that can end up with the same signature
1501 2012-10-04 22:52:56 <gmaxwell> No, he previously believed that the signature wasn't included in the hash.
1502 2012-10-04 22:52:59 <kjj_> er, with the same hash
1503 2012-10-04 22:53:33 <kjj_> oh, thank god.  I much prefer when someone else is confused about something instead of me
1504 2012-10-04 22:54:12 <kjj_> and I started digging through the source to find out exactly what gets hashed, but I have to leave in a few minutes.  hate to leave a mystery for that long
1505 2012-10-04 22:54:33 <jose__> I guess thats like what gmaxwell wanted to say: 'No way, Jose'.
1506 2012-10-04 22:54:45 jose__ has left ()
1507 2012-10-04 22:55:15 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1508 2012-10-04 22:58:00 <xblitz> any good IDE to load the whole bitcoind project and have auto complete  for the custom classes/methods?
1509 2012-10-04 22:58:29 lggr has joined
1510 2012-10-04 22:58:32 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1511 2012-10-04 22:59:08 <sipa> xblitz: never used an IDE for bitcoind, sorry
1512 2012-10-04 22:59:13 <galambo> eclispe?
1513 2012-10-04 22:59:16 <sipa> i believe wumpus uses Qt creator
1514 2012-10-04 22:59:45 <galambo> you have to get it to build in eclipse to get autocomplete
1515 2012-10-04 23:00:05 <xblitz> ok.. maybe ill try that...
1516 2012-10-04 23:00:15 <galambo> but that doesn't prevent you from switching to QT creator to do the gui build
1517 2012-10-04 23:00:57 <xblitz> its just a pain to search through all the source to see what a classes accepts for init and all the inheritance...
1518 2012-10-04 23:01:18 <sipa> galambo: why would eclipse be the only IDE that has autocomplete?
1519 2012-10-04 23:01:46 <xblitz> i dont think he said it was the only one
1520 2012-10-04 23:02:06 <sipa> saying that you have to get it to build in eclipse does kinda imply that, no?
1521 2012-10-04 23:02:14 <galambo> its not i just like the autocomplete and
1522 2012-10-04 23:02:16 <galambo>  search for definiton and references especially
1523 2012-10-04 23:02:28 <xblitz> ah no i think he mean that to have the autocomplete IN eclpse it has to build in it
1524 2012-10-04 23:02:40 <sipa> oh, sure, yes
1525 2012-10-04 23:02:45 <xblitz> thats what i understood
1526 2012-10-04 23:03:18 <galambo> sipa: you have to have a successful build for it to pick up all the class names
1527 2012-10-04 23:04:26 <sipa> galambo: yes yes, absolutely, i fully agree
1528 2012-10-04 23:04:32 <sipa> i just misunderstood you
1529 2012-10-04 23:04:36 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1530 2012-10-04 23:06:58 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1531 2012-10-04 23:07:46 lggr has joined
1532 2012-10-04 23:09:06 harkon__ has joined
1533 2012-10-04 23:09:26 harkon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1534 2012-10-04 23:14:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1535 2012-10-04 23:16:51 lggr has joined
1536 2012-10-04 23:23:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1537 2012-10-04 23:27:07 lggr has joined
1538 2012-10-04 23:33:10 MaxSan1 has joined
1539 2012-10-04 23:33:40 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1540 2012-10-04 23:34:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1541 2012-10-04 23:37:14 lggr has joined
1542 2012-10-04 23:39:09 SuprTiggr` has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1543 2012-10-04 23:41:10 SuprTiggr has joined
1544 2012-10-04 23:42:21 MaxSan1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1545 2012-10-04 23:43:09 MaxSan has joined
1546 2012-10-04 23:43:43 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1547 2012-10-04 23:46:24 lggr has joined
1548 2012-10-04 23:47:25 xisalty_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1549 2012-10-04 23:47:38 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1550 2012-10-04 23:48:22 root2_ has joined
1551 2012-10-04 23:51:55 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1552 2012-10-04 23:53:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1553 2012-10-04 23:54:47 setkeh has joined
1554 2012-10-04 23:56:27 lggr has joined