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   8 2012-10-06 00:13:01 * jgarzik updates pynode's block file format to match network "block" messages
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  10 2012-10-06 00:13:42 <sipa> jgarzik: does your latest tweet imply a new baby?
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  12 2012-10-06 00:13:54 <jgarzik> sipa: yep, due in January 2013
  13 2012-10-06 00:14:12 slush has joined
  14 2012-10-06 00:14:19 <sipa> jgarzik: congrats!
  15 2012-10-06 00:14:33 <sipa> Day changed to 06 Oct 2012
  16 2012-10-06 00:14:34 <jgarzik> thanks :)
  17 2012-10-06 00:14:42 <sipa> heh
  18 2012-10-06 00:14:53 <sipa> why did i say that?
  19 2012-10-06 00:14:59 <sipa> bad bad irssi
  20 2012-10-06 00:15:20 <amiller> hahahahahaha
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  29 2012-10-06 00:24:13 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: Woo!
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  34 2012-10-06 00:32:23 <jgarzik> theymos vs. Nefario vs. GLBSE closing: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.0
  35 2012-10-06 00:34:32 <KIDC> jgarzik: rofl you have got to be kidding me.
  36 2012-10-06 00:34:55 da2ce796 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  37 2012-10-06 00:35:27 <jgarzik> full disclosure:  It is possible I have an account at GLBSE, but I -never- transacted anything there, nor deposited any funds
  38 2012-10-06 00:36:07 <jgarzik> always seemed cute but likely to run afoul of some country's regulators
  39 2012-10-06 00:37:15 <KIDC> i never had any dealings with glbse whatsoever, seemed like a good idea but too volatile and yes regulators may have been a problem
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  41 2012-10-06 00:37:40 <KIDC> i cant imagine the fsa being accepting of glbse. then again they let the uk banks run wild so i dunno.
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  43 2012-10-06 00:40:03 <Joric> i didn't get is GLBSE closing or just temporarily offline
  44 2012-10-06 00:40:39 <KIDC> well theymos is pretty reliable and he says its a done deal so im gonna take that as face value and say its over.
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  73 2012-10-06 01:31:25 <Mad7Scientist> santorum
  74 2012-10-06 01:31:31 * Raccoon explodes into a frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter.
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  82 2012-10-06 01:41:12 <helo> lacking any confidence in its value, i still must ask because the idea occurred to me...
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  85 2012-10-06 01:45:17 <helo> 'lamport bunker' address (lba) type. sends from lba addresses can can only occur in one in every 1440 blocks, and carry a high fee. use lamport signatures instead of sha.
  86 2012-10-06 01:45:43 * helo spams goatse
  87 2012-10-06 01:45:55 <helo> Raccoon: ^
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 104 2012-10-06 02:17:21 <helo> anyone know when the devs get back from the bars?
 105 2012-10-06 02:18:40 <CoinHoarder> Thanks to silk road, the parties going all night long ;)
 106 2012-10-06 02:20:49 <jaxtr> what happened to glbse
 107 2012-10-06 02:21:24 <CoinHoarder> I don't think anyone knows for certain what happened
 108 2012-10-06 02:21:33 <CoinHoarder> Just that it's down right now
 109 2012-10-06 02:21:38 Gabit has joined
 110 2012-10-06 02:22:10 <CoinHoarder> scam accustations going on right now about GLSBE: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.0
 111 2012-10-06 02:22:17 <CoinHoarder> -t
 112 2012-10-06 02:22:37 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
 113 2012-10-06 02:23:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 114 2012-10-06 02:23:41 <gmaxwell> wow. thats pretty damning.
 115 2012-10-06 02:23:54 <gmaxwell> theymos is not one to just slap loose accusations.
 116 2012-10-06 02:24:04 <gmaxwell> Where is Nefario (what a name!) located?
 117 2012-10-06 02:24:14 <Raccoon> Nigeria?
 118 2012-10-06 02:24:22 <Diablo-D3> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.0
 119 2012-10-06 02:24:24 <Diablo-D3> oh
 120 2012-10-06 02:24:24 <gmaxwell> come on, be serious.
 121 2012-10-06 02:24:26 <Diablo-D3> CoinHoarder beat me
 122 2012-10-06 02:24:31 <Raccoon> Nefarlands
 123 2012-10-06 02:24:50 <CoinHoarder> :P
 124 2012-10-06 02:25:00 <Diablo-D3> so
 125 2012-10-06 02:25:01 <Diablo-D3> fuck this
 126 2012-10-06 02:25:07 <CoinHoarder> I've heard he lives in England
 127 2012-10-06 02:25:10 <CoinHoarder> not sure tho
 128 2012-10-06 02:25:39 lggr has joined
 129 2012-10-06 02:26:09 <Raccoon> so what is GLBSE and why would the FBI shut them down?
 130 2012-10-06 02:26:16 Gabit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 131 2012-10-06 02:26:46 <Diablo-D3> fbi? wrong office.
 132 2012-10-06 02:26:53 <Diablo-D3> you really mean the sec, and thats wrong too, hes not in the US
 133 2012-10-06 02:27:37 <CoinHoarder> The UK has the FSA = same thing as SEC
 134 2012-10-06 02:27:55 <CoinHoarder> again, second hand knowledge, not sure about it.
 135 2012-10-06 02:28:21 <Raccoon> the FBI is a global organization, with offices in every soverign nation
 136 2012-10-06 02:28:24 <Diablo-D3> no, hes just a fucking liar
 137 2012-10-06 02:28:31 cande has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 138 2012-10-06 02:28:37 <Diablo-D3> Raccoon: go troll somewhere else
 139 2012-10-06 02:28:45 <Raccoon> but it's so.
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 178 2012-10-06 03:30:13 <metadevdev> hey guys
 179 2012-10-06 03:30:17 <metadevdev> anyone on?
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 181 2012-10-06 03:31:14 <gmaxwell> no.
 182 2012-10-06 03:31:39 <metadevdev> haha
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 198 2012-10-06 03:52:44 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
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 203 2012-10-06 04:08:48 <jgarzik> https://glbse.com/ appears to have been updated, with this message: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.msg1249246#msg1249246
 204 2012-10-06 04:09:02 <jgarzik> "We will begin retuning bitcoin once we have recieved all coins from the GLBSE treasurer that manages the GLBSE cash reserves. BitcoinGlobal (GLBSE's partent company) shareholders and board voted for them to be returned immediately, we are awaiting compliance with this order."
 205 2012-10-06 04:09:29 <jgarzik> I think the treasurer is theymos
 206 2012-10-06 04:09:46 <Diablo-D3> dont hold your breath
 207 2012-10-06 04:10:00 <theymos> Yeah, I am.
 208 2012-10-06 04:10:19 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 209 2012-10-06 04:10:28 <theymos> jgarzik: Can bitbonds eventually replace GLBSE, you think?
 210 2012-10-06 04:10:36 <jgarzik> theymos: yes
 211 2012-10-06 04:11:52 <theymos> Cool. That'd be a lot better than a centralised site.
 212 2012-10-06 04:11:56 <jgarzik> theymos: distributed bonds are simply coins like any other bitcoins, that are treated specially by the holders.
 213 2012-10-06 04:12:08 lggr has joined
 214 2012-10-06 04:12:25 <theymos> Do you use 0-value coins?
 215 2012-10-06 04:12:48 <gmaxwell> I'm skeptical. Probably the _most_ two valuable thing GLBSE did was screen issuers somewhat so that 99-of-100 weren't instant scams; and allowing open orders for offline users so that there can be some liquidity.
 216 2012-10-06 04:13:10 <jgarzik> theymos: I send you 1-satoshi.  I am the bond issuer.  Anyone you send that specific satoshi coin to becomes the bond holder.
 217 2012-10-06 04:13:28 <jgarzik> theymos: no zero value outputs.  I like that there is an associated cost.
 218 2012-10-06 04:13:35 <jgarzik> encourages efficiency
 219 2012-10-06 04:14:14 <theymos> gmaxwell: Exchanges and verification services could be set up for bitbonds. But it wouldn't be so centralized.
 220 2012-10-06 04:14:32 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: A fair criticism.  The design sketch includes a space for ratings.  You just have to build a trust network with that
 221 2012-10-06 04:14:38 Gladamas has joined
 222 2012-10-06 04:14:39 <theymos> jgarzik: How do you prevent an asset from being split?
 223 2012-10-06 04:14:40 <gmaxwell> theymos: then those would be the GLBSE replacement.
 224 2012-10-06 04:15:50 <theymos> gmaxwell: Yeah, but different sites can share assets. If one site goes down, some other site can easily replace it. And it also increases competition.
 225 2012-10-06 04:16:14 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I've yet to see evidence that online trust networks are actually effective. OTC wot's has not been a tremendous success. A lot of people get scammed. ::shrugs::
 226 2012-10-06 04:16:19 <jgarzik> theymos: 1-satoshi == 1 bond, by the ruleset I prefer.  The sender and recipient both must agree on the "rules", namely preserving "BOND<HASH>OP_DROP".  If you fail to preserve that, you burn the bond.  If an imposter tries to add a bond message, the bond issuer can easily trace the coin history, and see that it is an invalid bond.
 227 2012-10-06 04:17:08 <jgarzik> theymos: the bond issuer is responsible for scanning the blockchain, verifying final ownership of each bond
 228 2012-10-06 04:18:01 <theymos> Can the asset creator issue more bonds?
 229 2012-10-06 04:18:06 <jgarzik> theymos: more generally, if a sender->recipient breaks the "rules" expected by the bond issuer, they won't get paid
 230 2012-10-06 04:18:22 <gmaxwell> theymos: of course they can— they _define_ what the bond means.
 231 2012-10-06 04:18:25 <jgarzik> theymos: sure
 232 2012-10-06 04:18:25 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 233 2012-10-06 04:18:35 <theymos> Sounds good. I like that design. That's similar to the design I had in mind for DNS.
 234 2012-10-06 04:18:38 <jgarzik> theymos: you are at the mercy of the bond issuer, for all
 235 2012-10-06 04:18:45 <gmaxwell> since you have to trust the issuer, why not just have them manage all the bond ownership in a provable way? e.g. via OT?
 236 2012-10-06 04:18:52 <jgarzik> theymos: you are at the mercy of the bond issuer, for payment, for proper tracking of bond holders in the chain, ...
 237 2012-10-06 04:19:20 <jgarzik> theymos: there is no concept of an "asset" or "issue", only the individual bonds
 238 2012-10-06 04:20:57 <gmaxwell> This is all pretty squarely inside what OT is intended to handle.. outside of what bitcoin is intended for. :(  I fear you've got a hammer and everything is a nail.
 239 2012-10-06 04:21:02 <amiller> it's interesting you say you rely on the issuer to properly track the bond holders
 240 2012-10-06 04:21:30 lggr has joined
 241 2012-10-06 04:21:31 <gmaxwell> amiller: of course, other people might do so too.. but if the issuer doesn't all bets are off.
 242 2012-10-06 04:21:33 freakazoid has joined
 243 2012-10-06 04:22:49 <jgarzik> amiller: you rely on the issuer to pay back the bond, whatever the medium
 244 2012-10-06 04:23:14 <gmaxwell> or grant you your voting rights or whatever other benefit holding the bond confers.
 245 2012-10-06 04:23:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: my general response is the same as TD's...  it is a small price to pay for a decentralized financial system, to have atomic smart property/payment swaps
 246 2012-10-06 04:24:17 <jgarzik> No other solution is as secure, atomic and reliable
 247 2012-10-06 04:24:44 <gmaxwell> Your system isn't secure at all. It has complete and ultimate trust on the issuer.
 248 2012-10-06 04:24:46 <amiller> just because you have to rely on them to pay back the bond doesn't mean you also rely on them to do proper accounting
 249 2012-10-06 04:25:11 <gmaxwell> If the issuer defects or defaults the users have no recourse, and even have no system provided mechenism to _prove_ that the default happened.
 250 2012-10-06 04:25:21 <amiller> suppose they have insurance
 251 2012-10-06 04:25:31 <amiller> then that would be their recourse, and in fact all bets would not be off if the issuer defaults
 252 2012-10-06 04:25:37 <jgarzik> amiller: independent third parties can track issuers through the chain, and verify that they make payments as claimed
 253 2012-10-06 04:25:48 <jgarzik> assuming you follow the standard bond spec
 254 2012-10-06 04:25:58 <gmaxwell> Vs OT which _can_ have some of those properties at least for contract terms which can be expressed with the ricardian contracts rules stuff.
 255 2012-10-06 04:27:47 <jgarzik> OT is the height of bleh
 256 2012-10-06 04:27:51 <gmaxwell> the only advantage I'm aware of for the bitcoin bond stuff is the atomic trades. But it comes at the cost of making real market like liquidity either non-existant or at least risky (lots of systems with private signing keys online at all times).
 257 2012-10-06 04:27:55 <jgarzik> ever read the code?
 258 2012-10-06 04:28:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 260 2012-10-06 04:29:13 <gmaxwell> so to really have the sort of usable liquid markets that people will absolutely want the bonds will have to move into some centeralized market maker systems. This improves a ton of stuff, but moots the easy transferance value... and the external market can't obviously be made tamperproof.
 261 2012-10-06 04:29:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes. :(
 262 2012-10-06 04:29:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: that's part of why I won't touch OT with a ten foot pole
 263 2012-10-06 04:30:46 <jgarzik> yeah I think multiple people will create bond exchanges
 264 2012-10-06 04:30:57 <dakid> gmaxwell: my client keeps crashing, is it a known bug with macosx, i'm running bitcoin-qt 0.7-beta on osx 10.8.2
 265 2012-10-06 04:30:59 <jgarzik> just like with bitcoin exchanges
 266 2012-10-06 04:31:10 <gmaxwell> (I mean, bitcoin / litcoin  ; bitcoin / namecoin  trades are not hard to make atomic, secure, and decenteralized ... but _everyone_ uses an exchange. I'm pretty sure no secure trade cross those compatible cryptocoins has ever happened)
 267 2012-10-06 04:31:34 <jgarzik> yep
 268 2012-10-06 04:31:39 <gmaxwell> dakid: anything at the bottom of the debug.log file after it crashes?
 269 2012-10-06 04:31:58 lggr has joined
 270 2012-10-06 04:33:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and although there are 'big' volumes of those trades made... nothing. And they've been possible to make in a secure manner for as long as they've existed...  I don't believe there is a demand for the technical features you're providing.
 271 2012-10-06 04:33:23 <gmaxwell> Otherwise we'd see decenteralized exchange of ltc/nmc/btc. No?
 272 2012-10-06 04:34:12 <jgarzik> That's quite a bit different from smart property built on colored coins
 273 2012-10-06 04:34:14 <dakid> is this significant: ERROR: FetchInputs() : 70449ff9d8 mempool Tx prev not found 5fd035b182
 274 2012-10-06 04:34:31 <gmaxwell> dakid: no.
 275 2012-10-06 04:34:32 <jgarzik> It's a bad example besides... no market for alt-coins
 276 2012-10-06 04:34:44 <jgarzik> They can barely support a one-person hackable centralized exchange
 277 2012-10-06 04:35:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: nmc and ltc markets are each probably as liquid as the sum of everything on glbse.
 278 2012-10-06 04:35:12 <dakid> gmaxwell: let me see if i can crash it, and then ill check the debug.log
 279 2012-10-06 04:35:26 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there are several exchanges, in fact.
 280 2012-10-06 04:35:31 <gmaxwell> but ::shrugs::
 281 2012-10-06 04:35:43 Karmaon_ is now known as Karmaon
 282 2012-10-06 04:36:24 <theymos> Last time I looked into OT there wasn't much documentation and it seemed way over-complicated.
 283 2012-10-06 04:36:51 <gmaxwell> if that were its only problems…
 284 2012-10-06 04:36:55 <amiller> OT is really disappointing, it explicitly leaves you vulnerable to the server operator counterfeiting bonds
 285 2012-10-06 04:37:22 <gmaxwell> amiller: yes, but so does this.
 286 2012-10-06 04:38:38 <jgarzik> counterfeiting?  or just adding dilution by issuing more bonds?
 287 2012-10-06 04:38:44 <amiller> no way, this is totally different
 288 2012-10-06 04:38:46 <jgarzik> printing new != copying old
 289 2012-10-06 04:38:47 <amiller> the difference is in detectability
 290 2012-10-06 04:38:49 <dakid> gmaxwell: If its any help, it always occurs right after I enter my wallet password during a transaction
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 292 2012-10-06 04:39:16 <jgarzik> distributed bonds are designed to be traced through the chain by third party verification software
 293 2012-10-06 04:39:39 <amiller> in OT, if the server operator and the issuer collude then no one will notice. it is not part of the system that the server operator is transparent/public
 294 2012-10-06 04:39:46 <gmaxwell> Okay, atltcoin markets are a bit smaller than they used to be.. currently only about 2000 BTC on open buy orders.
 295 2012-10-06 04:40:04 <gmaxwell> amiller: it addresses this by letting you have any number of server operators.
 296 2012-10-06 04:40:06 <amiller> in distributed bonds there is no private information and no designated server operator
 297 2012-10-06 04:40:07 <jgarzik> sure you can print more, but everybody can see that
 298 2012-10-06 04:40:45 <gmaxwell> amiller: and I don't agree that its not the same thing, in jeff's stuff the issuer can keep printing bonds all day long... even if there is nothing to back them.
 299 2012-10-06 04:40:52 <amiller> k-of-N privileged entities =/= public participation
 300 2012-10-06 04:41:06 lggr has joined
 301 2012-10-06 04:42:21 <gmaxwell> (nor can you tell that they're doing it, so long as the bonds are orthorgonalized and you don't all go consult each other... e.g. "I thought alpaca socks corp was bond 12345, why do you say its 2345?"
 302 2012-10-06 04:42:58 <jgarzik> you start out with a single output for N satoshis == N bonds.  that's associated with a hash
 303 2012-10-06 04:43:01 <amiller> sure, lets just say the issuer can default
 304 2012-10-06 04:43:03 <jgarzik> any change means new hash, new details
 305 2012-10-06 04:43:16 <amiller> yes that's true in both cases - the difference is whether or not the issuer is responsible for keeping his own books or whether those are public
 306 2012-10-06 04:43:58 <amiller> i think we should roughly model how insurance or auditing or these independent third parties would work
 307 2012-10-06 04:44:12 <amiller> (FellowTraveller is forever stuck working on the 'auditing protocol' which i don't think is viable)
 308 2012-10-06 04:44:18 <gmaxwell> amiller: OT at least gives you an organized way to k-of-N them.  colored coin bonds do not. You can publically trace around a single bond but you can't tell how many the issuer has let without their help.
 309 2012-10-06 04:44:56 <amiller> oh
 310 2012-10-06 04:45:04 <amiller> are single bonds individual?
 311 2012-10-06 04:45:16 <amiller> do they split/merge or do they stay integral
 312 2012-10-06 04:45:44 <amiller> i assumed there would be at least a notion of bonds from a specific issuance, like when a company is founded with a thousand shares and each of those can be tracked
 313 2012-10-06 04:46:11 * jgarzik was designing a graph, where all nodes start from a single one, nValue = X, where X is the number of bonds in a "bundle" that is tracked/rated/etc. together.
 314 2012-10-06 04:46:30 <gmaxwell> That could certantly be arranged, but you can't discover another issuance, even so.
 315 2012-10-06 04:46:33 <jgarzik> that is the root for tracking
 316 2012-10-06 04:46:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: not sure that is solvable... any actor can publish more bonds, smart property or not
 317 2012-10-06 04:47:00 pingdrive has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 318 2012-10-06 04:47:10 <amiller> gmaxwell, that isn't solvable and there are simpler expressions for the same attack
 319 2012-10-06 04:47:17 <amiller> the issuer can default for any personal reasons
 320 2012-10-06 04:47:22 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 321 2012-10-06 04:47:31 <amiller> e.g. if he has multiple identities that all default
 322 2012-10-06 04:48:17 <gmaxwell> Yes, I'm aware of this… and it's why I don't see much value in having tracking except as provided by the issuer or his designees... standardizing that tracking so it's portable and provable has value.
 323 2012-10-06 04:48:39 <amiller> what's important is that within the set of a single issuance, for example any of the 1000 shares of a company that is publicly founded, that you can tell if any of them default
 324 2012-10-06 04:48:50 <jgarzik> provides asynchronous, provable, atomic, independent third party -> third party transfers
 325 2012-10-06 04:49:02 <gmaxwell> The _one_ good thing I see about bitbonds is the atomic exchange with bitcoin. Otherwise it's all daft. But even thats of limited value because everyone wants an exchange, which then doesn't need integrated atomic exchange as its easy for the exchange to provide that.
 326 2012-10-06 04:49:44 <amiller> hmm. you know, distributed bonds are exactly as hard as a distributed trust network like otc
 327 2012-10-06 04:49:54 <gmaxwell> (and if the exchange provides it 'online' by holding the keys and making bitcoin transaction even for its internal moves.. then its pretty hard to secure)
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 329 2012-10-06 04:56:32 <dakid> gmaxwell: another thing Ive notice is that growl notifications longer show up with the current versions of everything, is there a fix?
 330 2012-10-06 04:57:01 <gmaxwell> I have no idea on that. (I don't even know what a growl notifications is)
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 332 2012-10-06 04:58:27 <gmaxwell> Man. I am totally looking forward to telling my girlfriend about GLBSE vanishing.  "and it was run by this guy named Nefario"  ... we though people giving their money to "pirate" was funny, but I think Nefario is even more amusing. :-/
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 337 2012-10-06 05:01:02 <dakid> oh, growl is a notification system, applications can send little messages to growl which puts up a notification bubble, its like KDE's kdialog, or Dbus on ubuntu
 338 2012-10-06 05:01:26 <dakid> bitcoin qt would put up a bubble upon sending and recieving coins
 339 2012-10-06 05:01:37 <dakid> in osx atleast
 340 2012-10-06 05:03:02 <gmaxwell> but now it crashes instead? :P
 341 2012-10-06 05:04:53 <dakid> it  might be related, who knows
 342 2012-10-06 05:05:12 <dakid> its does give "10/6/12 12:51:56.078 AM sandboxd[1048]: ([193]) Growl(193) deny file-read-data /private/var/folders/xk/3m7cc7b91bnc04xnktqsx77c0000gn/T/qt_temp.FVr884" in the console
 343 2012-10-06 05:05:45 <dakid> looks like the sandbox demon in osx is preventing bitcoin qt from passing messages to growl
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 350 2012-10-06 05:13:27 <gmaxwell> dakid: ah, and then it crashes when the unexpected happens perhaps.
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 358 2012-10-06 05:21:20 <dakid> yea, but its not consistent, it doesn't crash everytime sandbox stops growl, im tired, ill try to replicate the crash later, thanks for your help gmaxwell
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 377 2012-10-06 05:35:07 <amiller> hm hm, new algorithm devised
 378 2012-10-06 05:36:24 <amiller> for merkle tree validation, if you have only O(1) memory, then you can still process N updates to a balanced merkle tree of bounded size M, using O(N log M) amount of data and in as much time
 379 2012-10-06 05:36:50 <amiller> that's still a ton of data to transfer, the factor of log M there sucks
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 381 2012-10-06 05:38:37 <amiller> if you have sufficient memory to store the whole utxo, O(M), then you should only need O(N) transfer, which is optimal since that's just like downloading the raw blockchain
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 383 2012-10-06 05:40:04 <amiller> so the question is if you have some memory Q < M, but not enough to store a whole utxo, how much can you reduce the transfer
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 390 2012-10-06 05:46:39 <amiller> meh, maybe there's even a way to do disk efficient validation
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 392 2012-10-06 05:48:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: a smart property alt-chain would be interesting, but not sure how it might be bootstrapped past the point of where it suffers all the deficiencies of other weak chains
 393 2012-10-06 05:49:04 <amiller> anyway the key thing to take advantage of is that if you're validating a fork, then you're not processing novel arbitrary queries, you're validating a particular sequence of queries. you don't need a search data structure, you need something else.
 394 2012-10-06 05:50:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: at to Why Not, with regards to cross-chain trust-free trading...  this is simply Hard Stuff and software does not exist to demonstrate such techniques
 395 2012-10-06 05:50:35 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: whereas any idiot can at least understand 100% of the design space of a centralized cross-chain exchange website
 396 2012-10-06 05:51:11 <jgarzik> I largely view bonds as just a demonstration, a subset of smart property (smartcoins / colored coins)
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 399 2012-10-06 05:52:46 <jgarzik> but the obvious downside is using satoshi's is the blockchain becomes subclassed as a generic property registry
 400 2012-10-06 05:52:53 <jgarzik> s/is using/to using/
 401 2012-10-06 05:53:06 <noagendamarket> namcoin would probably work
 402 2012-10-06 05:53:18 <jgarzik> thus it records bitcoin transfers and property transfers
 403 2012-10-06 05:53:27 <amiller> jgarzik, that's its destiny
 404 2012-10-06 05:54:24 <jgarzik> amiller: I think gmaxwell is right, at a minimum, in implying that other solutions besides crapping up the main chain should be explored, in the quest for decentralized financial and property tools
 405 2012-10-06 05:54:25 <noagendamarket> its hard to overcome the anonymous scammer issue
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 407 2012-10-06 05:54:54 <jgarzik> well, any bond or smart-coin or colored coin's "rule enforcement" is left to those outside the chain itself
 408 2012-10-06 05:55:11 <amiller> to these mysterious independent third parties
 409 2012-10-06 05:55:23 <noagendamarket> thats where you end up with brokers who get squeezed by the feds :P
 410 2012-10-06 05:55:30 <amiller> what we'd need is some way of incentivizing lots of those third party independent validators
 411 2012-10-06 05:55:38 <jgarzik> I like bonds because it is a subset of smart property, where the incentives are a bit more clear
 412 2012-10-06 05:56:35 <jgarzik> smart property is simply secure token transfer between parties, where it is not required even that there be a relationship between the current holder and original issuer
 413 2012-10-06 05:56:49 <jgarzik> unlike bonds, where the original bond issuer is key to the relationship
 414 2012-10-06 05:57:17 <amiller> "secure" is about public verifiability, right?
 415 2012-10-06 05:58:13 da2ce796 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 416 2012-10-06 05:58:26 <jgarzik> amiller: "secure token transfer" == ["transfer of a 1-satoshi bitcoin" | "transfer of a smart-property alt-coin"]
 417 2012-10-06 05:58:43 <jgarzik> i.e. just crypto-signed messages of which we're already familiar
 418 2012-10-06 05:58:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 419 2012-10-06 05:58:55 <jgarzik> the difficult part is the layer above -- applying meaning to smartcoins
 420 2012-10-06 05:58:59 MiningBuddy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 421 2012-10-06 05:59:19 <amiller> is meaning applied to bitcoin
 422 2012-10-06 05:59:45 <jgarzik> Classic smart property example:  a 1-satoshi bitcoin or 1-propcoin transaction confers ownership of a car
 423 2012-10-06 06:00:22 <jgarzik> The holder of the unspent coin is the car owner
 424 2012-10-06 06:00:32 <jgarzik> (or bond owner etc.)
 425 2012-10-06 06:00:33 <amiller> ownership is about public recognition
 426 2012-10-06 06:00:36 <jgarzik> yep
 427 2012-10-06 06:00:37 <amiller> (i.e., legal)
 428 2012-10-06 06:00:54 <jgarzik> the problem -- how to close the loop between "I own $this bitcoin" and "I own this car"
 429 2012-10-06 06:00:55 lggr has joined
 430 2012-10-06 06:01:17 <jgarzik> with bonds, you may define a globally agreed protocol, which makes bond payments verifyable to the community
 431 2012-10-06 06:01:55 <jgarzik> and a bond-payment network is a well known entity that may be wholly encompassed within the current blockchain data structures
 432 2012-10-06 06:01:56 cande has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 434 2012-10-06 06:02:56 <jgarzik> so with bonds, closing that loop seems doable
 435 2012-10-06 06:04:09 <jgarzik> For smart property in general to work, it seems like you need a massive amount of network-effect-driven coordination.  You need all the car dealerships to agree that car ownership follows the propcoin alt-chain.
 436 2012-10-06 06:04:35 <amiller> jgarzik, can you imagine a near-future world where it's possible to make legally binding contracts in reference to the blockchain
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 438 2012-10-06 06:05:01 <jgarzik> amiller: legally speaking... seems like you can do that now.  contracts are just English-language programs ;p
 439 2012-10-06 06:05:03 <amiller> if not in a court trial or something, maybe in the context of commercial arbitration?
 440 2012-10-06 06:05:06 <amiller> then the property could have teeth
 441 2012-10-06 06:05:10 <jgarzik> yep
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 443 2012-10-06 06:05:12 <jgarzik> agreed
 444 2012-10-06 06:05:40 <amiller> heh, i hope by "seems like you can do that now" you're envisioning the same kind of bitcoin court dramas i am
 445 2012-10-06 06:05:55 <jgarzik> hehehe
 446 2012-10-06 06:06:38 <amiller> block hash 0x0000dfe8a98fd098 is introduced as evidence, the jury is expected to independently validate the reported work content of the chain of headers
 447 2012-10-06 06:06:54 <amiller> the stenographer is mining by typing nonces
 448 2012-10-06 06:07:16 <amiller> but really it should be easy... maybe you're right and it could be done now :p
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 451 2012-10-06 06:09:35 <jgarzik> amiller: it's all in the writing of the legal contract language...  you can specify any technical standard you wish; just be sure to spend some time on the "definitions" section. ;p
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 480 2012-10-06 06:46:52 <amiller> i have a 40 gigabyte file right now containing all the hashes encountered while building merkle utxo's up through blocks 140k or so, it compresses with tar.gz down to a quarter of that
 481 2012-10-06 06:46:58 <amiller> it's still too big of course
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 484 2012-10-06 06:48:03 <amiller> i can feed it into my tiny O(log M)-memory validator and it goes along just fine
 485 2012-10-06 06:48:33 <amiller> but the huge file is redundant in the sense that the validator computes all of those hashes itself at some point
 486 2012-10-06 06:49:22 <amiller> imagine you're going to build a database/index and you're going to respond to queries from users, you'd want a balanced database so you can handle any query
 487 2012-10-06 06:49:54 <amiller> but now imagine that before hand, an oracle gives you a prediction of exactly which queries you'll receive and when
 488 2012-10-06 06:52:19 boupitch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 489 2012-10-06 06:53:17 <amiller> now you don't need random access and balance is kind of irrelevant
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 491 2012-10-06 06:53:58 <amiller> it's like getting to cheat on a test because you get the exact questions ahead of time
 492 2012-10-06 06:54:29 <amiller> you could just memorize all the answers in order - store a file containing the correct response to each of the queries - but now you have too big a file if many of the queries share data
 493 2012-10-06 06:55:36 lggr has joined
 494 2012-10-06 06:55:40 <amiller> one approach would be to have a circular buffer
 495 2012-10-06 06:56:08 <amiller> and each time you respond to a query with a prerecorded answer, you use the prediction to place the data in exactly the right spot in the buffer so it will be at the cursor when you next need it
 496 2012-10-06 06:58:35 <amiller> if the circular buffer can be up to size O(M) in random access memory then this strategy is super cool
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 501 2012-10-06 07:09:36 <amiller> but more realistic is that you don't have enough ram for a whole utxo set, so you want some other way to be I/O and cache efficient
 502 2012-10-06 07:10:25 <amiller> i think the way to do this is with a funnel sort of some kind
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 751 2012-10-06 14:51:11 <pingdrive> hi, i received some btc yesterday, but it doesnt not show in bitcoind-qt it does however show in blockchain.info?
 752 2012-10-06 14:51:25 <pingdrive> do priv keys get corrupted?
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 754 2012-10-06 14:53:13 <sipa> are you fully synced?
 755 2012-10-06 14:54:13 <pingdrive> yes
 756 2012-10-06 14:54:19 <pingdrive> it says on blockexplorer
 757 2012-10-06 14:54:29 <sipa> try running with -rescan
 758 2012-10-06 14:54:31 <pingdrive> public key (unknown)
 759 2012-10-06 14:54:45 <sipa> and please let me know if that helped
 760 2012-10-06 14:55:00 <sipa> oh, first just try exiting and restarting
 761 2012-10-06 14:55:18 <pingdrive> yeh i did that thosands of times
 762 2012-10-06 14:55:20 <pingdrive> lol
 763 2012-10-06 14:55:24 <pingdrive> let me do rescan
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 765 2012-10-06 14:57:27 <pingdrive> also when i do walletdump
 766 2012-10-06 14:57:28 <pingdrive> i have
 767 2012-10-06 14:57:29 <pingdrive>  "keys": [],
 768 2012-10-06 14:57:29 <pingdrive>     "minversion": "unsupported",
 769 2012-10-06 14:57:29 <pingdrive>     "mkey": "unsupported",
 770 2012-10-06 14:57:36 <pingdrive> shouldnt keys be filled?
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 772 2012-10-06 14:59:14 <sipa> what version are you running?
 773 2012-10-06 14:59:37 <sipa> and what is walletdump?
 774 2012-10-06 15:00:05 <pingdrive> pywallet.py
 775 2012-10-06 15:00:10 <pingdrive> -- walletdump
 776 2012-10-06 15:00:24 <sipa> ah, no idea how that works
 777 2012-10-06 15:00:56 <pingdrive> "version": 70003
 778 2012-10-06 15:01:10 <sipa> can you try using the dumpprivkey RPC?
 779 2012-10-06 15:01:31 <pingdrive> how do i do that
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 785 2012-10-06 15:04:56 <pingdrive> okay nvm i found how to do it, still rescanning
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 789 2012-10-06 15:07:16 <pingdrive> okay it showed thanks for help man
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 819 2012-10-06 15:44:10 * wizkid057 is shutting down shop for a few hours for cleaning and reorganization purposes. BBL!
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 859 2012-10-06 16:59:14 <jgarzik> boy, kano trolled everybody ;p
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 862 2012-10-06 17:03:19 <gmaxwell> "Where IS the restriction at the moment?" "That we're not permitted to throw you into a volcano."
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 870 2012-10-06 17:09:57 <nanotube> greetings y'all. just want to bring this thread to your attention: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110781.0
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 873 2012-10-06 17:10:20 <nanotube> it appears that upon encrypting for the first time, any unused keypool addresses get discarded and replaced with new ones (sensible from a security point of view)
 874 2012-10-06 17:10:40 <sipa> nanotube: noy discarded; marked usrd
 875 2012-10-06 17:10:44 <sipa> *used
 876 2012-10-06 17:10:46 <nanotube> but that also invalidates previous backups (bad from a safety point of view)
 877 2012-10-06 17:11:06 <nanotube> well... either way, new transactions after encryption get change sent to new addresses which are not in the backup
 878 2012-10-06 17:11:06 <gmaxwell> nanotube: we talked to him on IRC when he posted that.
 879 2012-10-06 17:11:11 <nanotube> ah ok
 880 2012-10-06 17:11:20 <nanotube> well i was just going to make a suggestion from a UI stand point
 881 2012-10-06 17:11:22 <sipa> yes, 0.7.1 will warn to create a new backup upon encryption
 882 2012-10-06 17:11:25 <gmaxwell> And future versions will warn you at encryption time.
 883 2012-10-06 17:11:29 <nanotube> that upon wallet encryption, it should have a big fat warning
 884 2012-10-06 17:11:37 <nanotube> ah ok then, you guys have it all sorted out .
 885 2012-10-06 17:11:42 <nanotube> good. :)
 886 2012-10-06 17:12:11 <gmaxwell> Yep. We're one step ahead of you. But thanks for pointing it out— if he hadn't also shown up on IRC we might not have done this yet.
 887 2012-10-06 17:12:23 <nanotube> just... reminded me of that one guy who lost 9kbtc back before satoshi added the keypool feature in 0.3.12 or so.
 888 2012-10-06 17:12:51 <nanotube> indeed - just wanted to make sure you guys saw the issue. :)
 889 2012-10-06 17:13:25 <gmaxwell> I'm hoping the theif shows up on the forums looking for help to crack the wallet crypto. :P
 890 2012-10-06 17:13:41 <nanotube> lol that'd be funny
 891 2012-10-06 17:13:50 <gmaxwell> "Sure, I'll crack that for you" <gives wallet back to owner>
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 895 2012-10-06 17:15:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: and answer "yeah, someone on the forum happened to know the passwod; that was fastrr than spending the 2^82 years to bruteforce the master key
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 897 2012-10-06 17:17:18 <gmaxwell> haha
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 937 2012-10-06 18:33:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "p2ptrade", which uses pybond's "financial P2P network and financial hashmap (the DHT)" for mechanizing cross-chain trading, would be an interesting project
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 939 2012-10-06 18:34:24 <jgarzik> Reason being...  I'd be interested in pursuing a smart property alt-chain, if it was possible to secure that alt-chain from common weak-chain attacks
 940 2012-10-06 18:35:04 <jgarzik> With a smart property alt-chain, at least bonds and smart property tokens (and their transfer) would be outside the blockchain
 941 2012-10-06 18:35:20 <jgarzik> not convinced this would wind up a superior experience for users, but willing to give it a shot
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 946 2012-10-06 18:41:19 <jgarzik> Another concern is simply byte size:  will the total byte size added to the _bitcoin_ blockchain, in a trading-with-smart-property-chain scenario, versus the no-alt-chain scenario where smart property == colored coins?
 947 2012-10-06 18:41:49 <jgarzik> This example makes it seem like that is within the realm of possibility: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains
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 956 2012-10-06 18:46:35 <kjj_> jgarzik: I think that a second chain, using either merged mining as it exists today, or using the "free" method, will cause less bytes to enter the bitcoin chain
 957 2012-10-06 18:47:12 <kjj_> the trade off is, though, that there will be more bytes in the other chain, but that's fine, because that cost of handled by users of that second chain
 958 2012-10-06 18:47:27 <kjj_> er, is handled
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 960 2012-10-06 18:47:53 <jgarzik> even just considering the bitcoin side, cross-chain transactions are a lot bigger
 961 2012-10-06 18:48:17 <kjj_> well...  I'm not sure that cross chain is necessary
 962 2012-10-06 18:49:11 <kjj_> but the big p2sh blob gets spent right away, and so it should be prune-able
 963 2012-10-06 18:49:20 <jgarzik> kjj_: it's not necessary, agreed.  everything could be done on the bitcoin side ("Atomic coin swapping" thread)
 964 2012-10-06 18:49:44 <jgarzik> but I think gmaxwell would constantly bitch ;p
 965 2012-10-06 18:50:08 <kjj_> heh.  if not him, someone else.  no matter what happens
 966 2012-10-06 18:51:13 <kjj_> here is the other thing, in my view
 967 2012-10-06 18:51:14 <jgarzik> well on a design point, it does make some sense:  a bitcoin output becomes a token of abstract ownership.  Scaling up, you wind up with a lot of people holding 1-satoshi unspent outputs.
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 969 2012-10-06 18:51:36 <jgarzik> you gotta store the property ownership tokens somewhere
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 971 2012-10-06 18:52:31 <kjj_> we could do a merged chain for securities TODAY
 972 2012-10-06 18:53:02 <kjj_> the colored stuff would take a while.  there are still issues that need to be worked out
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 975 2012-10-06 18:56:53 <amiller> i don't see why anyone thinks that cross chain transactions will work correctly
 976 2012-10-06 18:57:12 <kjj_> amiller: there are ways to do it
 977 2012-10-06 18:57:24 <amiller> what prevents the namecoin side of the transactions from completing but the bitcoin side getting preempted
 978 2012-10-06 18:57:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes, bht that property ownership should be stored by people who care about it, not by the entire world.
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 980 2012-10-06 18:57:53 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin ownership is held by the entire world because we care about bitcoin not being inflated (degrades our own bitcoin)
 981 2012-10-06 18:58:06 <gmaxwell> Only the other holders of a bond give a crap about inflation or ownership of a bond. :P
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 984 2012-10-06 19:00:09 <gmaxwell> 11:30 <@jgarzik> This example makes it seem like that is within the realm of possibility: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains
 985 2012-10-06 19:00:16 <gmaxwell> the example there is longer than it needs to be.
 986 2012-10-06 19:01:04 <gmaxwell> (e.g. it doesn't need the if/else part for the escrow unlock)
 987 2012-10-06 19:01:07 <amiller> gmaxwell, describe a simpler example and walk me through how either both txs succeed or neither do (atomicity?)
 988 2012-10-06 19:01:48 <gmaxwell> amiller: I posted this a couple times but can't be bothered to look it up— it's basically there, just eliminate the multisig half.
 989 2012-10-06 19:02:38 <gmaxwell> you pay to preimage A + preimage B + A signature. on one side preimage A + preimage B + B signature on the other.
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 991 2012-10-06 19:05:32 <amiller> i don't know how to refer to the particular steps of the sequence clearly, but the problem is what prevents the last signer from spending the coins one one chain first and then signing the transaction
 992 2012-10-06 19:05:46 <amiller> i agree that either both secrets are revealed or neither are, but that doesn't mean the transaction will complete
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 995 2012-10-06 19:08:23 <gmaxwell> amiller: I'm not following what you're asking, sorry.
 996 2012-10-06 19:09:36 <gmaxwell> amiller: okay, you're asking about a holdup where one side goes into escrow and the other side spends their input first so it can't go into escrow
 997 2012-10-06 19:09:42 <gmaxwell> and then you have a randsom situation?
 998 2012-10-06 19:09:58 <gmaxwell> Indeed, to deal with that you do need the refund branch.
 999 2012-10-06 19:10:22 <amiller> i missed the escrow part, is there a third party?
1000 2012-10-06 19:10:56 <gmaxwell> ... no.
1001 2012-10-06 19:11:00 <amiller> or is that based on the lock time
1002 2012-10-06 19:11:29 <gmaxwell> By escrow I mean the deposits into a script that requires the parties to cooperate. (held in escrow by the blockchain)
1003 2012-10-06 19:12:00 <gmaxwell> The idea is that you precompute and share refund transactions that are only valid in the future.
1004 2012-10-06 19:12:27 <gmaxwell> so if the other guy manages to trick you into paying into the escrow without him doing the same, eventually that timer ticks down and you refund.
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1007 2012-10-06 19:15:48 <amiller> ah okay, each party first has to commit their coins into an escrow script (in the blockchain) with a timer and a refund destination
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1009 2012-10-06 19:16:22 <amiller> so on one hand you want to make the escrow time pretty short, because if you're interacting with a stranger then they could troll you by letting you go first and encumber your funds for a while while they just disappera
1010 2012-10-06 19:17:00 <amiller> you can't trade with anyone else until the escrow timer runs out
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1012 2012-10-06 19:18:14 <amiller> on the other hand, the escrow times are not necessarily synchronized between the two chains
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1015 2012-10-06 19:22:08 <amiller> so there's still a race condition where the escrow expires and the refund is executed in one chain, but the exchange completes in the other chain
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1017 2012-10-06 19:23:55 <gmaxwell> amiller: yes, though thats why the refunds aren't instant. (thats true even if the times are 'synced', e.g. using time instead of height)
1018 2012-10-06 19:24:02 <gmaxwell> It's also only the case for independant chains.
1019 2012-10-06 19:24:10 <gmaxwell> Jeff's bond chain doesn't need to be independant.
1020 2012-10-06 19:24:27 <gmaxwell> It can, in fact, have full (or only just SPV) security against the bitcoin chain.
1021 2012-10-06 19:24:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. the jeff chain could do a kind of transaction that monitors the bitcoin chain.
1022 2012-10-06 19:25:21 <gmaxwell> The key point is that joe random bitcoin users don't need to know about the ownership of bonds.
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1024 2012-10-06 19:27:37 <amiller> if joe random bitcoin users don't know about the ownership of bonds, then there's no way to synchronize their timelines and there's a race condition involving loss of bonds
1025 2012-10-06 19:27:51 <gmaxwell> amiller: no, there isn't.
1026 2012-10-06 19:28:19 <gmaxwell> amiller: just because bitcoin owners don't know about bonds doesn't mean that the bond holder don't know about bitcoin.
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1028 2012-10-06 19:33:13 <amiller> i still don't think that works; the problem is that bitcoin miners who don't know about bonds will timestamp (or merge mine) transactions in other chains whether they're valid, invalid, or undecidable
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1030 2012-10-06 19:33:44 <amiller> i'm inferring a bit about what you mean by "transaction that monitors the bitcoin chain" because i think i know what you mean but maybe i'm wrong, i'll look for a reference
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1032 2012-10-06 19:34:32 <gmaxwell> You apparently don't have a clue about how merged mining works.
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1034 2012-10-06 19:34:48 <gmaxwell> Thats the root of this misunderstanding.
1035 2012-10-06 19:35:26 <gmaxwell> If the secondary chain requires something for validatity, timestamped work that doesn't conform with that rule is just non-existant from their perspective.
1036 2012-10-06 19:36:41 <gmaxwell> (sorry for being terse, trying to get some actual work done...)
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1038 2012-10-06 19:37:16 <amiller> it's k, sorry for making you reexplain merge mining to me every time i get it wrong - maybe i just shouldn't have put it there though, i don't think you were talking about merge mining when you said transaction that monitors the blockchain
1039 2012-10-06 19:38:22 <gmaxwell> Well it could be $anything that monitors the blockchain, when you mentioned "itcoin miners who don't know about bonds will timestamp (or merge mine)" I assumed you were making incorrect assumptions about how merged mining works.
1040 2012-10-06 19:39:09 <gmaxwell> I don't think it matters for this queston how the bond holders decide. They can still get the validity of cross chain transactions with bitcoin by watching bitcoin, however they do their consensus for transactions that never touch bitcoin.
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1078 2012-10-06 20:11:21 <amiller> gmaxwell i'm not clear on what you have in mind, but i'm doubtful that it can avoid a race condition preventing atomic cross-chain transactions
1079 2012-10-06 20:11:25 <amiller> either way, can we first conclude that in the case of independent chains, as in the example jgarzik linked to, there is inherently a race condition attack resulting in loss of funds? i'm not sure whether you agreed with me when you said "yes, though thats why the refunds aren't instant"
1080 2012-10-06 20:12:04 <jgarzik> after googling, that Contracts example is still the only one turning up
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1091 2012-10-06 20:17:13 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91843.msg1011956#msg1011956
1092 2012-10-06 20:17:23 <gmaxwell> 13:00 < amiller> gmaxwell i'm not clear on what you have in mind, but i'm doubtful that it can avoid a race condition preventing atomic cross-chain transactions
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1094 2012-10-06 20:17:34 <gmaxwell> You should think about it a bit, and you'll see its possible.
1095 2012-10-06 20:17:45 <gmaxwell> If it were not, then none of the colored coin things could work either.
1096 2012-10-06 20:17:52 <gmaxwell> how'd I get opped?
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1098 2012-10-06 20:20:28 <gmaxwell> amiller: abstractly, you can do things like "bond holder commits in the bond network to a transaction contingent on the bitcoin completing a matching transaction" Then that transaction does or doesn't happen. And you're atomic on bitcoin.
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1101 2012-10-06 20:22:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "holdup risk" == "Alice sends secret to Bob, but Bob does not send secret to Alice"?
1102 2012-10-06 20:23:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes. Then both parties are stuck in limbo.
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1104 2012-10-06 20:24:15 <gmaxwell> The contracts page addresses that with precomputed refunds, though it makes the transaction bigger... and could potentially create a race around the refund time.
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1107 2012-10-06 20:27:16 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1108 2012-10-06 20:27:17 <gribble> 202116
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1110 2012-10-06 20:32:06 <sipa> gmaxwell and whoever is interested: some graphs about pruning: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/pruning-{tx,txout,size}.png
1111 2012-10-06 20:33:29 <gmaxwell> Nice.
1112 2012-10-06 20:33:40 <sipa> the size one reports the serialized size of the utxo database in ultraprune's format
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1114 2012-10-06 20:34:35 <gmaxwell> Hm. How could we simulate the effect of the client always trying to spend all of the inputs with the same scriptpubkey at once whenever there is change?
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1116 2012-10-06 20:35:03 <gmaxwell> (I'm wondering how much we can reduce txout set growth if the client was optimizing for that; same-scriptpubkey at least doesn't have privacy implications)
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1121 2012-10-06 20:36:31 <sipa> the raw data is in bitcoin.sipa.be/ultraprune.dat
1122 2012-10-06 20:36:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: that'd be hard, i think
1123 2012-10-06 20:37:49 <Joric> 9 megs?? is it the whole blockchain?
1124 2012-10-06 20:38:06 <sipa> Joric: the raw statistics
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1126 2012-10-06 20:38:09 <sipa> it's a text file
1127 2012-10-06 20:38:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: though i guess that's doable to get an upper bound, by assuming coin selection wouldn't be influenced by the presense of on average larger coins
1128 2012-10-06 20:39:19 <firelegend> Can anyone tell me what I need to do to write my own block monitor, which will send a longpoll to cgminer(when I am mining solo for instance)?
1129 2012-10-06 20:39:36 <firelegend> I've looked in blkmond from pushpool, but I hardly know python so it was hard to read the code.
1130 2012-10-06 20:39:38 <sipa> firelegend: bitcoind has a -blocknotify option
1131 2012-10-06 20:40:09 <sipa> which executes a program every time a new block arrives
1132 2012-10-06 20:40:12 <Joric> size_pruned size_all 101372927 715192309 at height 202116? what's 715192309? we got about 3 gigs already
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1134 2012-10-06 20:40:22 <gmaxwell> well one question is how many txouts there are which are less than 0.0001 ... I think we can assume that if there was agressive sweeping most of those wouldn't exist.
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1136 2012-10-06 20:40:30 <firelegend> oh.
1137 2012-10-06 20:40:32 <sipa> Joric: it's the size of the transaction outputs, not entire transactions
1138 2012-10-06 20:40:52 <firelegend> Then I must write my own block notifier, but sadly I have no idea how to begin.
1139 2012-10-06 20:41:07 <sipa> #!/bin/sh
1140 2012-10-06 20:41:14 <sipa> killall -USR1 cgminer
1141 2012-10-06 20:41:23 <sipa> or whatever signal cgminer needs
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1143 2012-10-06 20:42:01 <firelegend> I am actually on windows, which is why I need to write my own program.
1144 2012-10-06 20:42:11 <sipa> my condolences
1145 2012-10-06 20:42:37 <sipa> (sorry, no idea in that case)
1146 2012-10-06 20:43:10 <firelegend> Well, programming under Windows is not that different than Unix(except some obvious differences).
1147 2012-10-06 20:43:21 lggr has joined
1148 2012-10-06 20:43:22 <firelegend> Most is logic, OS independant.
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1150 2012-10-06 20:43:59 <firelegend> Anyway, I have tried blkmond under Windows, as python is OS independant, but it does not seem to work.
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1152 2012-10-06 20:44:55 <firelegend> It shows it connected to the p2p port, but it receives nothing and disconnects after a while.
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1155 2012-10-06 20:50:54 <firelegend> I am still trying to choose between querying bitcoin for the blocknumber every few seconds OR directly listening in on the network for block messages. The latter sounds better, but at the same time it's puzzling why blkmond did not work.
1156 2012-10-06 20:52:23 <Diablo-D3> doesnt blkmond require an already running bitcoind?
1157 2012-10-06 20:52:30 <firelegend> no
1158 2012-10-06 20:52:34 <firelegend> err
1159 2012-10-06 20:52:37 <firelegend> yes, I think.
1160 2012-10-06 20:52:46 <Diablo-D3> so figure out what it does and copy it
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1162 2012-10-06 20:53:12 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: what's wrong with -blocknotify ?
1163 2012-10-06 20:53:26 <Luke-Jr> blkmond just emulates -blocknotify O.o
1164 2012-10-06 20:53:30 <firelegend> Luke-Jr:Sipa stated it executed a program.
1165 2012-10-06 20:53:35 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: yes, it does
1166 2012-10-06 20:53:39 <Luke-Jr> problem?
1167 2012-10-06 20:53:54 <Luke-Jr> blkmond just sends a signal
1168 2012-10-06 20:54:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: firelegend's problem is that he can't write a program
1169 2012-10-06 20:54:20 <firelegend> it sends a signal directly to the program
1170 2012-10-06 20:54:34 <firelegend> whereas, starting a program which later alerts another one sounds..
1171 2012-10-06 20:55:02 <Diablo-D3> he cant?
1172 2012-10-06 20:55:07 <Diablo-D3> its time to learn how to code.
1173 2012-10-06 20:55:08 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: well, on reasonable OS, the kill "program" is builtin :p
1174 2012-10-06 20:55:29 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: in any case, it's easier than writing something more complex or using blkmond
1175 2012-10-06 20:55:34 <Diablo-D3> sipa: btw, I think theres a problem when Im writing bashisms to do shit in vim
1176 2012-10-06 20:55:36 <Diablo-D3> er
1177 2012-10-06 20:55:38 <Diablo-D3> unixisms
1178 2012-10-06 20:55:57 cande has joined
1179 2012-10-06 20:56:17 <firelegend> Luke-Jr: I would've used blkmond, but for some reason it does not "work" under Windows, despite python being cross-platform. It just says connected, and does not receive anything unlike when it does on Linux.
1180 2012-10-06 20:56:23 jose___ has joined
1181 2012-10-06 20:56:25 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: also, bitcoind can't really serve up getworks fast enough for solo mining to be practical
1182 2012-10-06 20:56:32 <firelegend> then after about 2 minutes, it disconnects.
1183 2012-10-06 20:56:52 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: nobody has used blkmond since before the last protocol change I think, so it probably doesn't work at all
1184 2012-10-06 20:57:10 <firelegend> I thought something like that might have happened.
1185 2012-10-06 20:57:18 <Luke-Jr> and all blkmond does is send a signal anyway
1186 2012-10-06 20:57:32 <firelegend> That is OK, I would've patched cgminer to intercept it.
1187 2012-10-06 20:57:34 <Luke-Jr> you could easily cut it down to a send-signal-only python script and execute that from -blocknotify
1188 2012-10-06 20:57:35 prahanormal has joined
1189 2012-10-06 20:57:44 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: Windows doesn't have signals I think
1190 2012-10-06 20:58:06 <firelegend> Luke-Jr:I think libevent helps with that?
1191 2012-10-06 20:58:10 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: also, if you do need to patch something, I'd consider a patch for BFGMiner :p
1192 2012-10-06 20:58:24 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: I don't think libevent has anything to do with it O.o
1193 2012-10-06 20:58:32 <firelegend> hmm.
1194 2012-10-06 20:58:43 <Luke-Jr> libevent is an event loop for C afaik
1195 2012-10-06 20:59:07 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1196 2012-10-06 20:59:16 <firelegend> It has support for signals, so I thought it would work.
1197 2012-10-06 20:59:42 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: I would imagine the best way to do this, would be to write a simple Python script (executed with -blocknotify) which uses the BFGMiner RPC API to notify it of the block change (which might require adding a RPC API to do that)
1198 2012-10-06 20:59:59 <firelegend> I have compiled pushpool for Windows, though it's not in a very working state.(was an experiment). Should ditch it then.
1199 2012-10-06 21:00:00 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: but again, you would hit a problem since bitcoind couldn't serve up enough getwork jobs for more than a few GH/s at best
1200 2012-10-06 21:00:24 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: why are you trying to use Windows btw? <.<
1201 2012-10-06 21:00:26 <firelegend> Luke-Jr:No worries, I am doing this for myself for my solo run.
1202 2012-10-06 21:00:54 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: right, I mean you can't practically solo mine with only a few GH/s, and more than that overloads bitcoind
1203 2012-10-06 21:01:19 <firelegend> Will keep that in mind.
1204 2012-10-06 21:01:26 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1205 2012-10-06 21:01:34 <Luke-Jr> if you feel like porting, http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/eloipool works well on Linux
1206 2012-10-06 21:01:45 <Luke-Jr> (but it currently requires epoll, which is not portable)
1207 2012-10-06 21:02:16 lggr has joined
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1209 2012-10-06 21:02:58 <sipa> firelegend: the term 'signal' is used for multiple things; i don't think signals inside libevent have anything to do with unix signals
1210 2012-10-06 21:05:07 <sipa> (this is just a guess; i don't know libevent at all)
1211 2012-10-06 21:06:53 <jaxtr> whats ap
1212 2012-10-06 21:07:03 prahanormal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1213 2012-10-06 21:07:13 <Backburn> Hey guys, v0.7.0 client is going into safe mode on testnet. Probably because there are so few peers and someones using an old version. is there a way to disable safe mode for getblock rpc without recompiling with safemode false for that rpc command?
1214 2012-10-06 21:07:33 prahanormal has joined
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1217 2012-10-06 21:10:16 <jose___> Why not distribute common target hash over the network and start at a random nonce each client? I think that would compete with the big boys of mining.
1218 2012-10-06 21:10:48 <gmaxwell> No way, Jose.
1219 2012-10-06 21:10:52 <gmaxwell> :P
1220 2012-10-06 21:10:56 <Backburn> hehe
1221 2012-10-06 21:10:58 <jose___> Hi gmaxwell
1222 2012-10-06 21:11:06 * EasyAt reuluctantly chuckles
1223 2012-10-06 21:11:15 <jose___> I am going to change my name
1224 2012-10-06 21:11:20 <gmaxwell> jose___: there are peer to peer mining pooling systems; google p2pool.  Though it need to be more complicated than that.
1225 2012-10-06 21:11:33 lggr has joined
1226 2012-10-06 21:11:38 <gmaxwell> jose___: your comment seems to suggest the mining-as-a-race misunderstanding.
1227 2012-10-06 21:11:42 <gmaxwell> (also the proposal)
1228 2012-10-06 21:12:06 <gmaxwell> Mining isn't like a race: you don't have to be the fastest to win. On average everyone gets paid simply and linearly proportional to their rate.
1229 2012-10-06 21:12:16 <gmaxwell> Like throwing dice and trying to roll 1s.
1230 2012-10-06 21:12:34 <gmaxwell> If you throw faster you'll roll more 1s in unit time; but the slow guy is still getting his share.
1231 2012-10-06 21:13:11 <gmaxwell> The reason people pool is because getting 50BTC blocks at once when your fair share is only 1 BTC/month means that the variance is high and your pay is unstable.
1232 2012-10-06 21:13:21 <gmaxwell> By pooling people average out that variance.
1233 2012-10-06 21:13:33 eroot has joined
1234 2012-10-06 21:13:44 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: posix is a bunch of fuckwits, theres no fsync/fdatasync for posix file streams
1235 2012-10-06 21:13:55 <gmaxwell> But you don't have to split nonce ranges or anything like that... the more nonce ranges you try your odds of the next one being a winner are constant.
1236 2012-10-06 21:14:37 <gmaxwell> (and in fact most candidate blocks have no solutions at all.. and some have multiple solutions)
1237 2012-10-06 21:15:15 <jose___> Every client starts the nonce at 0 for a given target hash right?
1238 2012-10-06 21:16:06 <firelegend> Yep.
1239 2012-10-06 21:16:46 <jose___> Big boys spread a target hash over a private network an 'throw the dice' for in every node right?
1240 2012-10-06 21:18:15 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1241 2012-10-06 21:18:19 <sipa> typically they just get several target hashes, one per node
1242 2012-10-06 21:18:22 <sipa> but that doesn't matter
1243 2012-10-06 21:18:46 datagutt_ has joined
1244 2012-10-06 21:18:51 toffoo has joined
1245 2012-10-06 21:19:03 <gmaxwell> jose___: pooled mining all starts at 0 too. Everyone starts at zero. It doesn't matter.
1246 2012-10-06 21:19:17 <jose___> does not matter the point is lets make the whole network of small clients work in a common target hash but every client start at a random nonce.
1247 2012-10-06 21:19:39 <gmaxwell> jose___: that doesn't help; in fact it hurts.
1248 2012-10-06 21:19:53 <jose___> yea the big boys
1249 2012-10-06 21:20:02 <sipa> jose___: you seem to think that spreading the search better helps in any way; it doesn't
1250 2012-10-06 21:20:04 <firelegend> gmaxwell:They all start at 0, but I've heard of people starting at an arbitrary nonce for whatever reason they might do that.
1251 2012-10-06 21:20:06 <gmaxwell> No, no one does
1252 2012-10-06 21:20:06 <jose___> that is what they do
1253 2012-10-06 21:20:18 <gmaxwell> No, it isn't.
1254 2012-10-06 21:20:44 <sipa> jose___: if you try 1 billion hashes, you'll find on average N good ones
1255 2012-10-06 21:20:52 lggr has joined
1256 2012-10-06 21:21:13 <sipa> jose___: it doesn't matter if those 1 billion hashes are consecutive with the same transactions, or completely arbitrary with different transactions
1257 2012-10-06 21:21:45 <sipa> so as long as you're doing as many hashes as you can, and not doing the same ones someone else does, you can't do any better
1258 2012-10-06 21:22:02 <gmaxwell> It's not like a normal search. There isn't an (effectively) finite search space in which you're looking for a single solution. Not like a race— searching faster doesn't give you a disproportional chance of success.
1259 2012-10-06 21:22:05 olp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1260 2012-10-06 21:22:16 <sipa> it's a sold-out lottery
1261 2012-10-06 21:22:22 <jose___> one hash one nonce. find the nonce. if many nodes (clients in the network) are finding for the same hash the nonce starting at a random nonce i dont see how that wont be faster.
1262 2012-10-06 21:22:44 <sipa> jose___: nobody is ever trying the same hash as someone else
1263 2012-10-06 21:23:07 <jose___> that is the point. make it so for some clients.
1264 2012-10-06 21:23:11 <sipa> no
1265 2012-10-06 21:23:28 <sipa> read my sentence again; it states a current truth
1266 2012-10-06 21:23:41 <Luke-Jr> [20:59:05] <jose___> Why not distribute common target hash over the network and start at a random nonce each client? I think that would compete with the big boys of mining.
1267 2012-10-06 21:23:42 <Luke-Jr> jose___: that's basically what a GBT miner would do
1268 2012-10-06 21:23:54 k3t3r has joined
1269 2012-10-06 21:24:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: please don't confuse him more :)
1270 2012-10-06 21:24:02 <gmaxwell> It's as, I said— every hash that gets computed is like rolling dice.. every attempt has a chance of 1 in 13119725520835889 of being successful. Each attempt is totally independant of all the attempts you or anyone else does. (unless something is broken)
1271 2012-10-06 21:24:05 <jose___> Luke GBT?
1272 2012-10-06 21:24:21 <Luke-Jr> jose___: the new mining protocol :p
1273 2012-10-06 21:24:26 <MC1984> cannot into probability
1274 2012-10-06 21:24:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: gmaxwell: wasn't it in response to my point about bitcoind load?
1275 2012-10-06 21:24:49 <jose___> Thanks Luke.
1276 2012-10-06 21:24:50 Luke-Jr has joined
1277 2012-10-06 21:24:52 <Luke-Jr> …
1278 2012-10-06 21:24:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, go read.
1279 2012-10-06 21:25:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I did read, up to his question at least
1280 2012-10-06 21:25:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's about this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114966.0
1281 2012-10-06 21:25:11 <sipa> jose___: Luke-Jr is right, but we'll get to that later
1282 2012-10-06 21:25:36 <sipa> jose___: focus on this thing now: nobody ever tries the same hash twice, or a hash anybody else has ever tried before
1283 2012-10-06 21:26:25 <sipa> do you believe me?
1284 2012-10-06 21:27:13 <jose___> I know man. Then replace the word 'hash' for 'target problem'.
1285 2012-10-06 21:27:41 <sipa> ok, done; still true
1286 2012-10-06 21:27:43 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1287 2012-10-06 21:28:06 <firelegend> jose___:Although luck has the final say, here's a thought. On avg, with 600mh/s it would take 7 seconds to find a difficulty 1 hash.
1288 2012-10-06 21:28:06 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1289 2012-10-06 21:28:13 * Luke-Jr wonders if jose___ and sipa/gmaxwell are talking about the same thing.
1290 2012-10-06 21:28:27 <jose___> LOL
1291 2012-10-06 21:29:24 <MC1984> i tried hash once
1292 2012-10-06 21:29:29 <MC1984> its ok
1293 2012-10-06 21:29:31 <gmaxwell> I'm not talking to anyone. I'm practicing my meditation now. I find that it helps suppress the urge to kill.
1294 2012-10-06 21:29:42 <gmaxwell> :P
1295 2012-10-06 21:29:59 <jose___> I am talking about a mining strategy for the small guy like me. Lets get together a big bunch of small guys each one tring a different nonce for the same 'target problem' and beat up the big guys.
1296 2012-10-06 21:30:11 <firelegend> jose___:sounds like a pool to me.
1297 2012-10-06 21:30:12 <Luke-Jr> jose___: that's what mining pools do
1298 2012-10-06 21:30:28 <jose___> That is why I say thank u Luke.
1299 2012-10-06 21:30:51 <sipa> jose___: that is in practice what pools do, but not in the way you describe it
1300 2012-10-06 21:31:07 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1301 2012-10-06 21:31:08 <sipa> they don't give out separate nonce ranges to each; they just give each a different problem
1302 2012-10-06 21:31:16 <gmaxwell> jose___: there is no need for there to be the same "target problem"
1303 2012-10-06 21:31:24 <gmaxwell> there is no advantage from having it be the same.
1304 2012-10-06 21:31:32 lggr has joined
1305 2012-10-06 21:31:32 <firelegend> One getwork to multiple miners?
1306 2012-10-06 21:31:43 <jose___> yeap
1307 2012-10-06 21:31:50 <gmaxwell> And random nonces whould be very harmful as you'd get duplicated work.
1308 2012-10-06 21:31:59 <firelegend> ^
1309 2012-10-06 21:32:02 <jose___> you already do
1310 2012-10-06 21:32:07 <gmaxwell> 0_o
1311 2012-10-06 21:32:07 <firelegend> not really.
1312 2012-10-06 21:32:11 <gmaxwell> No, not at all.
1313 2012-10-06 21:32:22 <Luke-Jr> jose___: many (most?) miners today can go through ALL the nonces in a single getwork in under a second
1314 2012-10-06 21:32:28 <gmaxwell> You could use coordinated nonces, but thats not better than distinct target problems, as it has more coordination overhead.
1315 2012-10-06 21:33:12 <firelegend> jose___:I know you want to find a way to solve blocks faster, believe me I do. But it is as impossible now as it will be tomorrow.
1316 2012-10-06 21:33:24 <firelegend> unless you have more powerful hardware.
1317 2012-10-06 21:33:50 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: BitFury claims he has some "cheats" he won't publish until after the first generation of ASICs ship
1318 2012-10-06 21:34:04 <firelegend> link?
1319 2012-10-06 21:34:22 <gmaxwell> Well there are certantly varrious interesting optimizations we do.
1320 2012-10-06 21:34:38 <gmaxwell> e.g. the sha256 gets the last four rounds cut off.
1321 2012-10-06 21:34:48 <firelegend> once everyone has those optimisations, it's back to square one :D
1322 2012-10-06 21:34:56 <gmaxwell> But I'm skeptical about high value 'cheats'.
1323 2012-10-06 21:35:57 <EasyAt> When you say they each get a diff problem, ist that the timestamp chaning, the amount of TXs, or both?
1324 2012-10-06 21:36:02 <EasyAt> changing*
1325 2012-10-06 21:36:39 <Luke-Jr> firelegend: somewhere around https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49971.240
1326 2012-10-06 21:36:53 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: all of the above. And in particular the private key it pays to and the extranonce change. Which changes the coinbase transaction, which changes the root.
1327 2012-10-06 21:37:35 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: usually the contents of the first (special) transaction (which has a field for up to 95 bytes of arbitrary data just to randomize it)
1328 2012-10-06 21:37:40 <EasyAt> So, how long do they usually hold timestamp still for? Or are they always incrementing it as it really shouldnt change the probability very much?
1329 2012-10-06 21:37:52 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1330 2012-10-06 21:37:59 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: gah, none of these changes change the probability!
1331 2012-10-06 21:38:17 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: miners are encourage to update the timestamp on reasonable pools
1332 2012-10-06 21:38:29 <Luke-Jr> as gmaxwell says, probability is fixed no matter what you change
1333 2012-10-06 21:38:32 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: the hash, unless it's broken, is a random oracle.  You have some 80 byte input. ... and any bit change gives you a determinstic random output.
1334 2012-10-06 21:39:06 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: so changing the nonce is just like changing any other value. It's a change, so you get a new random output.
1335 2012-10-06 21:39:57 <gmaxwell> it's not like searching a room for your glasses where as you search more and more space you become more and more likely to find them.
1336 2012-10-06 21:40:22 <EasyAt> Yes, sorry, I was thinking that if you kept every bit the same except the  nonce you you would be able to count out nonces that work thus helping to narrow a list down.. but, I see the flaw in logic
1337 2012-10-06 21:40:30 <EasyAt> that don;t work*
1338 2012-10-06 21:40:37 <gmaxwell> It's like I said before— like throwing dice. Every time you change anything you do another throw and have another equal chance of winning.
1339 2012-10-06 21:40:42 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: BINGO!
1340 2012-10-06 21:40:53 lggr has joined
1341 2012-10-06 21:40:58 <EasyAt> what do I win?
1342 2012-10-06 21:41:13 <gmaxwell> a hash operation. sadly it was unsuccessful, no block for you.
1343 2012-10-06 21:42:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: re that thread, I think their optimizations are mostly LX150 specific, like using the DSP blocks.
1344 2012-10-06 21:42:21 BlackPrapor has joined
1345 2012-10-06 21:42:31 <EasyAt> Luke-Jr: How do you encourage a miner to update timestamps semi-frequently? Except, sorry, while this is a valid block someone else found one with a more recent timestamp
1346 2012-10-06 21:42:51 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
1347 2012-10-06 21:42:56 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1348 2012-10-06 21:43:02 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: the old getwork protocol had an extension to use a HTTP header "X-Roll-NTime"
1349 2012-10-06 21:43:11 <firelegend> and the new one?
1350 2012-10-06 21:43:12 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: GBT has "mintime", "maxtime" etc keys
1351 2012-10-06 21:43:51 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: can you retry that question? I'm not sure I got what you were really asking.
1352 2012-10-06 21:44:27 <EasyAt> I was referring to : Luke-Jr> EasyAt: miners are encourage to update the timestamp on reasonable pools
1353 2012-10-06 21:44:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: somewhere, BitFury said his optimization "could" be used for ASICs which is why he wants to wait to release it
1354 2012-10-06 21:45:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh, well based on the past discussion it could be that he 'discovered' something that everyone already knows. A number of the fpga people did that with the last four rounds.
1355 2012-10-06 21:45:33 <EasyAt> Is there really any reason to hold a timestamp static for anything longer than necessary?
1356 2012-10-06 21:45:34 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: ah, okay. Yes, the reason for ntime rolling is mostly to reduce network communication.
1357 2012-10-06 21:45:55 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: no, other than complying with the protocol rules constraints on the timestamp.
1358 2012-10-06 21:46:13 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: some old pools don't allow miners to change it, other than that no
1359 2012-10-06 21:46:48 <EasyAt> interesting, was there any reason for that stipulation?
1360 2012-10-06 21:46:49 <gmaxwell> And they don't allow because they use changing it themselves to issue work to multiple miners... so if you change it you'll duplicate work.
1361 2012-10-06 21:46:58 <gmaxwell> or just because they don't handle it.
1362 2012-10-06 21:46:58 <EasyAt> ah, there we go :)
1363 2012-10-06 21:47:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1364 2012-10-06 21:47:40 <gmaxwell> e.g. they match the user up to the work they were requested to perform and do an exact match on the timestamp.
1365 2012-10-06 21:48:28 <EasyAt> Is there any incentive to add in TX's with no fee other than altruism?
1366 2012-10-06 21:49:04 SupaDupa has joined
1367 2012-10-06 21:49:10 <jose___> 'duplicate work' is what the big boys do.
1368 2012-10-06 21:50:03 <Luke-Jr> …
1369 2012-10-06 21:50:05 lggr has joined
1370 2012-10-06 21:50:15 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: some transactions include fees
1371 2012-10-06 21:50:27 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: and if nobody mines transactions, Bitcoins lose value fast
1372 2012-10-06 21:50:40 <Luke-Jr> (you know, the Bitcoins the miners are getting ;)
1373 2012-10-06 21:50:45 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: it's also very low cost to include transactions.
1374 2012-10-06 21:50:47 <EasyAt> Yes, I agree.  I didn't know if greedy pools have any reason except for bitcoins well being to block them
1375 2012-10-06 21:51:16 <EasyAt> Yes, it really shouldn't change anything to except free TX's except memory usage, correct/
1376 2012-10-06 21:51:20 <EasyAt> accept*
1377 2012-10-06 21:51:36 <Luke-Jr> in theory
1378 2012-10-06 21:51:40 <gmaxwell> well larger blocks propate slightly slower, mostly because of stupidity in the implementations.
1379 2012-10-06 21:51:46 <gmaxwell> But thats not really fundimental.
1380 2012-10-06 21:51:58 <gmaxwell> er propagate.
1381 2012-10-06 21:52:03 <gmaxwell> jose___: no, they don't.
1382 2012-10-06 21:52:12 <EasyAt> I think that was a troll statement?
1383 2012-10-06 21:52:41 phungus_ is now known as phungus
1384 2012-10-06 21:52:50 <gmaxwell> jose___: But you know; if you don't want want to listen to miners with hundreds of GH under their belts and the authors of the node software and mining software; then discussing it further is not likely to produce any great insight.
1385 2012-10-06 21:54:30 OneEyed has joined
1386 2012-10-06 21:55:08 <jose___> that should be the client choice. my choice. currently the biggest cut on blocks its like 20% which I dont think any one has 20% of CPU power of the network.
1387 2012-10-06 21:56:03 <Luke-Jr> CPU? what is that? people mine with CPUs?
1388 2012-10-06 21:56:16 <EasyAt> I hash in my head
1389 2012-10-06 21:56:37 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1390 2012-10-06 21:56:43 <SupaDupa> hey sister fucker how are you?
1391 2012-10-06 21:57:08 <sipa> jose___: which cut of 20% are you talking about?
1392 2012-10-06 21:57:15 <firelegend> SupaDupa:who would that be?
1393 2012-10-06 21:57:20 <SupaDupa> gmaxwell
1394 2012-10-06 21:57:31 <firelegend> proof?
1395 2012-10-06 21:57:39 <SupaDupa> http://pastebin.com/sY7XTThd
1396 2012-10-06 21:58:00 <EasyAt> So, I was wondering.  I saw jeff say his friend say that at CSIS they measure computing power by the acre.  If someone has putting that much power into a malicious chain, is there an effective method to spread awareness of said chain so that clients don't see it as the longest chain and start using it?
1397 2012-10-06 21:58:05 <EasyAt> erm, sorry if tha tis convaluted
1398 2012-10-06 21:58:17 <gmaxwell> "nothing to see here"
1399 2012-10-06 21:58:33 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: "malicious" by whos authority?
1400 2012-10-06 21:58:51 <EasyAt> As in, if say a government authority has been cooking up there own longest chain
1401 2012-10-06 21:59:00 <gmaxwell> Perhaps you can use a blockchain to reach a consensus about the identity which valid bitcoin blockchain is malicious? :P
1402 2012-10-06 21:59:08 <EasyAt> their*
1403 2012-10-06 21:59:09 <jose___> http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
1404 2012-10-06 21:59:15 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: ASICs should make that difficult
1405 2012-10-06 21:59:35 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: bitcoin users can run software that fixes the identity of a chain at a particular point.
1406 2012-10-06 21:59:48 <EasyAt> Okay
1407 2012-10-06 22:00:02 lggr has joined
1408 2012-10-06 22:00:23 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: which means that if such an attack emerged and undid a bunch of history, people can deploy a client that checkpoints one later and then erases it. This disincentivizes such attacks. Though it doesn't make it okay for a majority of hash power to be malicious.
1409 2012-10-06 22:01:35 <EasyAt> Thank you for that.  The argument that 'well, if they have that much hasing power, why not just mine?' never settled it for me as there could be attackers that don't want bitcoins
1410 2012-10-06 22:01:42 <gmaxwell> It's like asking "what if a simple majority of whites in the US vote to execute all the blacks" and the answer to that is that "the constution prohibits that kind of action" and likewise in bitcoin most kind of malicious actions are constutionally prohibited by the rules of the system.
1411 2012-10-06 22:01:59 eroot has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1412 2012-10-06 22:02:03 <EasyAt> Well, the chain would follow all the rules
1413 2012-10-06 22:02:12 <EasyAt> You just wouldn't want to use it
1414 2012-10-06 22:02:22 <gmaxwell> But there are some kinds of attacks "what if a simple majority of white in the US vote to tax everyone with a larger than average nose" which are not constutionally prohibited.
1415 2012-10-06 22:02:44 <gmaxwell> And the only answer to that is that is really thems the breaks.
1416 2012-10-06 22:03:02 <EasyAt> thems the breaks?
1417 2012-10-06 22:03:36 <gmaxwell> For secret forks that replace history it wouldn't be hard to get universal consensus to kill them via a checkpoint. But other overpowerering attacks, there is just nothing that can be done about it beyond making the bad men stop.
1418 2012-10-06 22:03:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if it would be reasonable for clients to reject any reorg longer than N blocks deep that reverses a transaction they personally care about
1419 2012-10-06 22:04:18 root2_ is now known as root2
1420 2012-10-06 22:04:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can be used to create persistant forks.
1421 2012-10-06 22:04:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I pay half of every address that has been seen 1e-8 btc in each of two forks...
1422 2012-10-06 22:04:51 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1423 2012-10-06 22:05:23 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: With a sufficiently large base of participants it just simply becomes infeasable to attack: because honest activity is easy to cooperate on, but attacks by their very nature must benefit a small number of parities.
1424 2012-10-06 22:05:30 <EasyAt> But fresh nodes would accept the rewritten chain without some sort of parameter to identify and drop that chain, correct
1425 2012-10-06 22:05:33 <EasyAt> ?
1426 2012-10-06 22:05:55 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: yes, thats why all proposals that say "reject reorg" are non-viable.
1427 2012-10-06 22:06:25 <EasyAt> whoops, library is closing
1428 2012-10-06 22:06:30 <EasyAt> I'm off to go find a new place to sit
1429 2012-10-06 22:06:31 <gmaxwell> TTYL.
1430 2012-10-06 22:06:36 EasyAt is now known as EasyAt|
1431 2012-10-06 22:06:44 <EasyAt> !~Easy@81.17.31.43|thanks for answering my questions :)
1432 2012-10-06 22:06:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1433 2012-10-06 22:06:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: provably all?
1434 2012-10-06 22:07:21 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1435 2012-10-06 22:07:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm pretty sure I could come up with a formal statement of that which could be proven. But it might be too narrow to be useful.
1436 2012-10-06 22:07:57 <gmaxwell> e.g. "reject rorgs that violate the protocol rules" works fine— so long as everyone has the same protocol rules. :P
1437 2012-10-06 22:08:23 <gmaxwell> (and the rules are only stateful on the past history of that single chain, and not other chains)
1438 2012-10-06 22:09:35 lggr has joined
1439 2012-10-06 22:09:51 jose___ has left ()
1440 2012-10-06 22:10:00 rdponticelli has joined
1441 2012-10-06 22:11:29 <occulta> hey, can anyone help me with this error in bitcoind
1442 2012-10-06 22:11:50 <amiller> it's reasonable that users might run a modified client that rejects blocks they don't like, if they think it will help them in some way
1443 2012-10-06 22:11:54 <occulta> http://pastebin.com/T7Vt9P3j
1444 2012-10-06 22:12:04 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1445 2012-10-06 22:12:16 <Luke-Jr> occulta: corrupt database.
1446 2012-10-06 22:12:27 <Luke-Jr> occulta: do anything weird with it lately?
1447 2012-10-06 22:12:36 <occulta> i tickled it ?
1448 2012-10-06 22:12:55 <occulta> but no, lol
1449 2012-10-06 22:13:13 <occulta> its 'open' ? if that makes sense, the files are held open i think
1450 2012-10-06 22:13:25 <occulta> i just installed bitcoind, (in ubuntu) and i normally run bitcoin-qt
1451 2012-10-06 22:13:28 <Luke-Jr> occulta: you can't run two bitcoin clients at the same time
1452 2012-10-06 22:13:28 <occulta> bitcoin-qt is closed, and was closed
1453 2012-10-06 22:13:37 <occulta> process name ?
1454 2012-10-06 22:13:48 <Luke-Jr> ps ax | grep bitcoin
1455 2012-10-06 22:13:54 <occulta> nothing
1456 2012-10-06 22:14:06 <occulta> strange eh?
1457 2012-10-06 22:14:20 <Luke-Jr> and you closed Bitcoin-Qt normally?
1458 2012-10-06 22:14:29 <occulta> yea
1459 2012-10-06 22:14:34 <Luke-Jr> did you reboot after that?
1460 2012-10-06 22:14:41 <occulta> no
1461 2012-10-06 22:14:45 <occulta> i was just about to
1462 2012-10-06 22:14:50 <Luke-Jr> did you install Bitcoin-Qt from the PPA?
1463 2012-10-06 22:14:55 <occulta> to see it that sorts it, probably will but still, should happen ?
1464 2012-10-06 22:14:57 <occulta> yes
1465 2012-10-06 22:15:01 <Luke-Jr> and bitcoind also?
1466 2012-10-06 22:15:05 <occulta> yup
1467 2012-10-06 22:15:21 <occulta> o wow
1468 2012-10-06 22:15:25 <occulta> bitcoin-qt gives it also
1469 2012-10-06 22:15:26 <occulta> let me reboot
1470 2012-10-06 22:15:27 datagutt_ is now known as datagutt
1471 2012-10-06 22:15:32 <Luke-Jr> occulta: wait
1472 2012-10-06 22:15:34 <Luke-Jr> fuser ~/.bitcoin/*\
1473 2012-10-06 22:15:36 <Luke-Jr> err
1474 2012-10-06 22:15:38 <Luke-Jr> fuser ~/.bitcoin/*
1475 2012-10-06 22:15:49 <occulta> nothing ?
1476 2012-10-06 22:15:56 senseless has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1477 2012-10-06 22:16:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1478 2012-10-06 22:16:19 jurov is now known as jurov|away
1479 2012-10-06 22:16:36 <Luke-Jr> occulta: db4.8_dump ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
1480 2012-10-06 22:16:58 <occulta> which does?
1481 2012-10-06 22:17:12 <Luke-Jr> tries to read wallet.dat and dump it in plain text
1482 2012-10-06 22:17:22 <Luke-Jr> interested in if it works or complains about it being corrupt
1483 2012-10-06 22:17:28 <occulta> which you want to me to pastebin? :P
1484 2012-10-06 22:17:30 <Luke-Jr> no
1485 2012-10-06 22:17:33 <occulta> lol
1486 2012-10-06 22:17:33 <Luke-Jr> do NOT do that :P
1487 2012-10-06 22:17:54 <Luke-Jr> just tell me if it errors or not
1488 2012-10-06 22:17:56 <occulta> as much as i would like to debug it, i would prefer to see if a reboot sort it first :)
1489 2012-10-06 22:18:06 <occulta> okok let me instsall that prog
1490 2012-10-06 22:18:11 <Luke-Jr> try this first :P
1491 2012-10-06 22:18:20 <Luke-Jr> install? it should already be installed
1492 2012-10-06 22:18:28 <occulta> db4.8-dump ?
1493 2012-10-06 22:18:31 <Luke-Jr> _
1494 2012-10-06 22:18:31 <occulta> nope
1495 2012-10-06 22:18:33 <occulta> utils *
1496 2012-10-06 22:18:34 <Luke-Jr> underscore
1497 2012-10-06 22:18:41 <Luke-Jr> oh, Ubuntu has it split out
1498 2012-10-06 22:19:07 <occulta> The following NEW packages will be installed   db4.8-util
1499 2012-10-06 22:19:07 <Luke-Jr> occulta: if this fails, you may wish to kill the power on your PC and run data recovery from another OS
1500 2012-10-06 22:19:33 <Luke-Jr> ie, not a clean shutdown since that is more likely to lose the data
1501 2012-10-06 22:19:37 lggr has joined
1502 2012-10-06 22:19:57 <occulta> no error
1503 2012-10-06 22:20:03 <Luke-Jr> ok, so your wallet is intact
1504 2012-10-06 22:20:06 <Luke-Jr> make a backup NOW just in case
1505 2012-10-06 22:20:13 <occulta> my wallet isnt here as such, its on another drive
1506 2012-10-06 22:20:18 <Luke-Jr> O.o?
1507 2012-10-06 22:20:19 <occulta> this is a new wallet with 10btc sent to it
1508 2012-10-06 22:20:34 <occulta> was going to test a SD bot.. lol, bloody ARIJ
1509 2012-10-06 22:20:35 <Luke-Jr> well, still make a backup :P
1510 2012-10-06 22:20:43 <Luke-Jr> …
1511 2012-10-06 22:20:44 <occulta> yea i got one
1512 2012-10-06 22:20:48 <Luke-Jr> P.S. please don't use SD
1513 2012-10-06 22:21:08 <occulta> :)
1514 2012-10-06 22:21:14 <occulta> going to reboot then ?
1515 2012-10-06 22:21:15 <Luke-Jr> occulta: OK, if you can check: db4.8_dump ~/.bitcoin/blkindex.dat
1516 2012-10-06 22:21:56 <occulta> seems fine
1517 2012-10-06 22:22:15 <occulta> is it possible to 'break' that ?
1518 2012-10-06 22:22:16 <occulta> lol
1519 2012-10-06 22:22:30 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1520 2012-10-06 22:22:37 <occulta> ihu you right
1521 2012-10-06 22:22:38 <Luke-Jr> occulta: also, be sure to backup the 'database' dir
1522 2012-10-06 22:22:48 <Luke-Jr> wallet.dat may be useless without it
1523 2012-10-06 22:23:17 <occulta> how to stop dumping blkindex?
1524 2012-10-06 22:23:54 <occulta> done
1525 2012-10-06 22:23:57 <occulta> rebooting
1526 2012-10-06 22:24:01 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1527 2012-10-06 22:24:48 <Luke-Jr> (if anyone else wants to jump in, I'm at a loss for this problem - which seems more serious than most IMO)
1528 2012-10-06 22:25:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1529 2012-10-06 22:27:56 KIDC has joined
1530 2012-10-06 22:27:56 KIDC has quit (Changing host)
1531 2012-10-06 22:27:56 KIDC has joined
1532 2012-10-06 22:29:18 lggr has joined
1533 2012-10-06 22:31:25 occulta has joined
1534 2012-10-06 22:31:40 <occulta> Luke-Jr: its fooked.
1535 2012-10-06 22:32:00 stamit has joined
1536 2012-10-06 22:32:22 denisx has joined
1537 2012-10-06 22:33:58 stamit has quit (Client Quit)
1538 2012-10-06 22:34:09 stamit has joined
1539 2012-10-06 22:35:24 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1540 2012-10-06 22:36:51 <Luke-Jr> occulta: I'm not too surprised a reboot was useless
1541 2012-10-06 22:37:18 <occulta> so what happened, why has this happened?
1542 2012-10-06 22:37:22 <Luke-Jr> occulta: what version btw?
1543 2012-10-06 22:37:28 <occulta> installed a package from ubuntu repos shouldnt do this
1544 2012-10-06 22:37:36 <occulta> 12.04 64bit desktop
1545 2012-10-06 22:38:00 <Luke-Jr> I mean bitcoind
1546 2012-10-06 22:38:02 <Luke-Jr> 0.7.1?
1547 2012-10-06 22:38:20 lggr has joined
1548 2012-10-06 22:38:24 <occulta> latest in the repos
1549 2012-10-06 22:38:30 <Luke-Jr> which is?
1550 2012-10-06 22:38:34 <occulta> cant start it to tell you lol
1551 2012-10-06 22:38:38 <Luke-Jr> -.-
1552 2012-10-06 22:38:44 <Luke-Jr> ls /var/lib/dpkg/info ?
1553 2012-10-06 22:38:45 <occulta> 0.7.0? not 100%
1554 2012-10-06 22:38:52 <Luke-Jr> oh right, 0.7.1 isn't done yet
1555 2012-10-06 22:39:05 <Luke-Jr> occulta: ok, do this
1556 2012-10-06 22:39:28 <Luke-Jr> rm blkindex.dat; cat blk0001.dat blk0002.dat > myblk.dat && rm blk000?.dat
1557 2012-10-06 22:39:45 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1558 2012-10-06 22:39:56 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind -loadblock=myblk.dat
1559 2012-10-06 22:39:58 <Luke-Jr> …
1560 2012-10-06 22:40:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: updated graphs
1561 2012-10-06 22:40:37 occulta has joined
1562 2012-10-06 22:41:07 <Luke-Jr> [22:28:16] <Luke-Jr> rm blkindex.dat; cat blk0001.dat blk0002.dat > myblk.dat && rm blk000?.dat
1563 2012-10-06 22:41:08 <Luke-Jr> [22:28:44] <Luke-Jr> bitcoind -loadblock=myblk.dat
1564 2012-10-06 22:41:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/pruning-size.png
1565 2012-10-06 22:41:11 <Luke-Jr> occulta: ^
1566 2012-10-06 22:41:26 <occulta> running
1567 2012-10-06 22:41:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: might give you an idea
1568 2012-10-06 22:42:07 ZenInTexas is now known as ZenInTexas_
1569 2012-10-06 22:42:48 ZenInTexas_ is now known as ZenInTexas
1570 2012-10-06 22:43:31 <occulta> same error Luke-Jr
1571 2012-10-06 22:43:38 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1572 2012-10-06 22:43:39 ZenInTexas is now known as NoSecurities
1573 2012-10-06 22:43:55 <Luke-Jr> occulta: you deleted blk*.dat, right?
1574 2012-10-06 22:43:58 <occulta> did you type the command right?
1575 2012-10-06 22:44:06 <occulta> k000?.dat
1576 2012-10-06 22:44:11 <occulta> k000*.dat  ?
1577 2012-10-06 22:44:11 Backburn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1578 2012-10-06 22:44:16 <Luke-Jr> ? should be the same in this case
1579 2012-10-06 22:44:21 <Luke-Jr> confirm the files are gone?
1580 2012-10-06 22:44:22 NoSecurities is now known as ZenInTexas
1581 2012-10-06 22:44:26 <occulta> sec
1582 2012-10-06 22:44:42 <sipa> just to be sure: you are in the right directory?
1583 2012-10-06 22:44:48 <sipa> what does ls -l tell you?
1584 2012-10-06 22:44:55 ZenInTexas has left ()
1585 2012-10-06 22:45:05 <occulta> just blkindex.dat ?
1586 2012-10-06 22:45:13 <occulta> there arelots of __db__ files
1587 2012-10-06 22:45:13 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1588 2012-10-06 22:45:17 <occulta> as if it was open ?
1589 2012-10-06 22:45:29 <Luke-Jr> occulta: delete blkindex.dat, blk0001.dat, and blk0002.dat
1590 2012-10-06 22:45:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in case you missed it, the strange thing about this case is he closed Bitcoin-Qt cleanly
1591 2012-10-06 22:46:33 <occulta> ok removed those, run bitcoind with -loadblock?
1592 2012-10-06 22:46:41 <Luke-Jr> -loadblock=myblk.dat
1593 2012-10-06 22:46:57 <occulta> yes
1594 2012-10-06 22:47:06 <occulta> same error
1595 2012-10-06 22:47:27 <occulta> wth lol
1596 2012-10-06 22:47:40 <occulta> not had a single error for almost 2 years
1597 2012-10-06 22:48:07 <Luke-Jr> occulta: do you have gdb installed?
1598 2012-10-06 22:48:22 <occulta> which is ? :S
1599 2012-10-06 22:48:27 lggr has joined
1600 2012-10-06 22:48:28 <Luke-Jr> a debugger
1601 2012-10-06 22:48:56 <occulta> its installed yes
1602 2012-10-06 22:48:57 <occulta> is this related?   The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
1603 2012-10-06 22:48:57 <occulta>   dh-apparmor html2text libmail-sendmail-perl libsys-hostname-long-perl
1604 2012-10-06 22:49:14 <occulta> dh-apparmor, i see this installed along with bitcoind
1605 2012-10-06 22:49:14 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1606 2012-10-06 22:49:26 <Luke-Jr> doubt it
1607 2012-10-06 22:49:31 asa1024 has joined
1608 2012-10-06 22:49:35 <occulta> ok, so
1609 2012-10-06 22:49:42 <occulta> cant i just download the blockchain again ?
1610 2012-10-06 22:49:46 <Luke-Jr> occulta: gdb ./bitcoind <your options including loadblock>
1611 2012-10-06 22:49:47 <occulta> reinstall bitcoin-qt ?
1612 2012-10-06 22:50:02 <Luke-Jr> then: catch throw
1613 2012-10-06 22:50:03 <Luke-Jr> then: run
1614 2012-10-06 22:50:14 <Luke-Jr> then paste the LAST line it prints before giving you a prompt
1615 2012-10-06 22:52:24 <occulta> it cant find bitcoind ?
1616 2012-10-06 22:52:28 <Luke-Jr> oh right
1617 2012-10-06 22:52:31 <Luke-Jr> take out the ./
1618 2012-10-06 22:52:39 <Luke-Jr> gdb --args bitcoind <…>
1619 2012-10-06 22:52:46 <Luke-Jr> then the rest as-is
1620 2012-10-06 22:53:07 <occulta> what args are needed?
1621 2012-10-06 22:53:23 <Luke-Jr> just -loadblock=myblk.dat
1622 2012-10-06 22:53:27 <Luke-Jr> didn't know if you had any others
1623 2012-10-06 22:53:29 <occulta> gdb: unrecognised option '-loadblock=myblk.da
1624 2012-10-06 22:53:48 <occulta> gdb bitcoind -loadblock=myblk.dat
1625 2012-10-06 22:53:53 <Luke-Jr> you forgot --args
1626 2012-10-06 22:54:04 <Luke-Jr> gdb --args bitcoind -loadblock=myblk.dat
1627 2012-10-06 22:54:10 <occulta> ah, this wasnt in your line above
1628 2012-10-06 22:54:27 <occulta> "/usr/bin/bitcoind": not in executable format: File format not recognised
1629 2012-10-06 22:54:41 <occulta> ubuntu fooked the install ?
1630 2012-10-06 22:54:50 <Luke-Jr> argh
1631 2012-10-06 22:54:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1632 2012-10-06 22:55:36 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
1633 2012-10-06 22:55:46 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1634 2012-10-06 22:57:35 lggr has joined
1635 2012-10-06 22:58:11 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
1636 2012-10-06 22:59:16 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1637 2012-10-06 23:00:04 Joric has quit ()
1638 2012-10-06 23:04:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1639 2012-10-06 23:06:30 lggr has joined
1640 2012-10-06 23:06:30 <occulta> argh? :(
1641 2012-10-06 23:08:34 harkon_ has joined
1642 2012-10-06 23:08:42 <Luke-Jr> occulta: cat /usr/bin/bitcoind (pastebin)
1643 2012-10-06 23:10:50 pingdrive has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1644 2012-10-06 23:10:50 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1645 2012-10-06 23:10:50 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1646 2012-10-06 23:10:50 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1647 2012-10-06 23:10:50 <Hasimir> occulta, what's the output of: file /usr/bin/bitcoind
1648 2012-10-06 23:10:56 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure it's a script
1649 2012-10-06 23:11:25 harkon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1650 2012-10-06 23:11:29 pingdrive has joined
1651 2012-10-06 23:12:35 <Hasimir> probably
1652 2012-10-06 23:12:35 random_cat has joined
1653 2012-10-06 23:12:35 <Hasimir> it's ubuntu, so they probably changed the paths
1654 2012-10-06 23:12:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1655 2012-10-06 23:12:40 <Hasimir> then either sym linked it or inserted a script into the package
1656 2012-10-06 23:13:22 <Luke-Jr> Hasimir: well, it's maintained by us (BlueMatt specifically) so I'd have hoped it was vanilla
1657 2012-10-06 23:15:16 <Hasimir> gosh, makes it easy for finger pointing then  :P
1658 2012-10-06 23:15:16 rdponticelli has joined
1659 2012-10-06 23:15:16 lggr has joined
1660 2012-10-06 23:15:16 <Luke-Jr> there's probably some reason for it
1661 2012-10-06 23:15:23 <Hasimir> Luke-Jr, tried extracting the .deb and seeing what's in there?
1662 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <Hasimir> the reason is probably a debian or canonical policy on adding stuff to /usr/bin
1663 2012-10-06 23:17:27 JZavala has joined
1664 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <Luke-Jr> no, I'm busy doing a million other things concurrently :P
1665 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <Hasimir> instead of say, /usr/local/bin
1666 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <Luke-Jr> packages aren't supposed to touch /usr/local
1667 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <occulta> Luke-Jr: http://pastebin.com/RMTECsdg
1668 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1669 2012-10-06 23:17:27 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure line 15 is wrong
1670 2012-10-06 23:17:31 <occulta> its a comment?
1671 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <Luke-Jr> yes, I mean wrong about what it says
1672 2012-10-06 23:19:37 * Hasimir is too used to Slackware - extra stuff is compiled from source in /usr/local (usually)
1673 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <occulta> hmm
1674 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <Luke-Jr> occulta: gdb --args /usr/lib/bitcoin/bitcoind -loadblock=myblk.dat
1675 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <occulta> should i remove bitcoind package and see what happens?
1676 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <Luke-Jr> no
1677 2012-10-06 23:19:37 occulta has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1678 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <Luke-Jr> …
1679 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <Luke-Jr> ^ he removed his IRC package by accident?
1680 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <Hasimir> heh
1681 2012-10-06 23:19:37 occulta has joined
1682 2012-10-06 23:19:37 <occulta> Reading symbols from /usr/lib/bitcoin/bitcoind...(no debugging symbols found)...done
1683 2012-10-06 23:20:15 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1684 2012-10-06 23:21:50 <occulta> . /usr/lib/bitcoind & /usr/lib/bitcoin/bitcoind   this is right?
1685 2012-10-06 23:22:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1686 2012-10-06 23:22:25 <occulta> sorry wrong path names
1687 2012-10-06 23:24:08 <Luke-Jr> occulta: wtf?
1688 2012-10-06 23:25:30 <occulta> nevermind me
1689 2012-10-06 23:25:30 <occulta> dont mind me* ? drunk.
1690 2012-10-06 23:25:30 harkon_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1693 2012-10-06 23:26:23 <occulta> so wtf happened ?
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1695 2012-10-06 23:27:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: thanks thats basically what I thought!  so ~20 Mbytes of super tiny outputs.
1696 2012-10-06 23:27:35 <gmaxwell> you can clearly see where they started getting created.
1697 2012-10-06 23:28:37 <gmaxwell> I bet we can make most of those vanish by teaching the reference client to sweep the darn things up.
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1708 2012-10-06 23:52:24 <CrazyMF> yeah hello. I'm trying to talk to bitcoind through curl and I get "PROCESSMESSAGE MESSAGESTART NOT FOUND" in debug.log and no response in curl. what do?
1709 2012-10-06 23:52:48 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: you're using the p2p port instead of the RPC port
1710 2012-10-06 23:53:24 <CrazyMF> -bind=127.0.0.1:1234  <- this port?
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1713 2012-10-06 23:55:26 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: yes, that binds p2p
1714 2012-10-06 23:55:32 <Luke-Jr> you want -rpcport=N
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1716 2012-10-06 23:58:00 <CrazyMF> is there something like -rpcbindtoip= ?
1717 2012-10-06 23:58:20 <CrazyMF> my curl and bitcoind aren't on the same host
1718 2012-10-06 23:59:07 <CrazyMF> oh wait, it works
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