1 2012-10-08 00:02:23 bakh has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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  10 2012-10-08 00:14:34 <Diablo-D3> http://imgur.com/gallery/jdKRy
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  17 2012-10-08 00:23:35 <jaxtr> crystal octogon
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  36 2012-10-08 00:52:27 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ever have code that you know should work perfectly because you've written code like it thousands of times, yet its not right?
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  39 2012-10-08 00:58:43 <Joric> like, when you think you know how compiler works but you really don't?
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  41 2012-10-08 01:00:29 <Diablo-D3> well, get this
  42 2012-10-08 01:00:37 <Diablo-D3> /home/diablo/Workspace/libugh/src/libugh/concurrent/mutex.h|135 col 16 error| cannot initialize a variable of type 'lugh_mutex_t *' (aka 'pthread_mutex_t *') with an rvalue of type 'void *'
  43 2012-10-08 01:00:48 <Diablo-D3> 	lugh_mutex_t *mutex = malloc(sizeof(lugh_mutex_t));
  44 2012-10-08 01:00:54 <Diablo-D3> thats line 135.
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  47 2012-10-08 01:02:31 <Arnavion> What was the rule about autocasting void* to T* again?
  48 2012-10-08 01:02:39 <Arnavion> Only happens in C99 ?
  49 2012-10-08 01:03:10 <Diablo-D3> Arnavion: how the hell else would you use malloc?
  50 2012-10-08 01:03:17 <Diablo-D3> I can see casting from non-mallocs, but wtf
  51 2012-10-08 01:03:17 lggr has joined
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  53 2012-10-08 01:04:53 <Arnavion> Ah yes, it's only automatic in C
  54 2012-10-08 01:04:54 <Arnavion> Not in C++
  55 2012-10-08 01:05:00 <Arnavion> So C++ needs a cast
  56 2012-10-08 01:05:09 <Diablo-D3> this isnt c++ though
  57 2012-10-08 01:05:13 <Diablo-D3> ....
  58 2012-10-08 01:05:23 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
  59 2012-10-08 01:05:44 <Diablo-D3> why does vim think .h is filetype cpp
  60 2012-10-08 01:09:04 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  61 2012-10-08 01:09:15 <gmaxwell> 17:47 < Joric> like, when you think you know how compiler works but you really don't?
  62 2012-10-08 01:09:18 <gmaxwell> 17:47 < Joric> like, when you think you know how compiler works but you really don't?
  63 2012-10-08 01:09:33 <gmaxwell> thats happened to me in the past, but after a few couple times I went and carefully read the spec.
  64 2012-10-08 01:10:03 <gmaxwell> Mostly I just assume that I'm stupid and know nothing; I'm seldom disappointed.
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  66 2012-10-08 01:11:13 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: you have to cast it; on some arches not all pointers are compatible because of segment or alignment requirements.
  67 2012-10-08 01:11:32 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: its a malloc!
  68 2012-10-08 01:12:42 <Diablo-D3> whats screwed up is this is only popping up if I load the header in vim by itself
  69 2012-10-08 01:12:50 <Diablo-D3> if its included by a C file, it doesnt do it
  70 2012-10-08 01:12:55 <Diablo-D3> and if I actually build it, it doesnt do it
  71 2012-10-08 01:13:21 <Arnavion> Your vim gives you compile errors?
  72 2012-10-08 01:13:25 <Diablo-D3> yeah
  73 2012-10-08 01:13:28 <Arnavion> ಠ_ಠ
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  75 2012-10-08 01:13:31 <Diablo-D3> syntastic + clang_complete
  76 2012-10-08 01:15:01 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, a void * returned my malloc is safe for all the primitive types at least, but there aren't seperate kinds of void * for "safe to coerce silently" thus the cast.
  77 2012-10-08 01:15:18 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
  78 2012-10-08 01:15:18 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: go code for a bit on arm and you'll be thankful for the behavior.
  79 2012-10-08 01:15:48 Ferroh_ is now known as Ferroh
  80 2012-10-08 01:16:10 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: okay so
  81 2012-10-08 01:16:15 <Diablo-D3> why does that trigger it and NOTHING ELSE
  82 2012-10-08 01:16:48 <Diablo-D3> Arnavion: and yes, I realize syntastic and clang_complete's quickfix window functionality overlaps
  83 2012-10-08 01:16:52 balrog has joined
  84 2012-10-08 01:16:59 <Diablo-D3> but gcc and clang give different shit sometimes
  85 2012-10-08 01:17:02 <Diablo-D3> its worth having both
  86 2012-10-08 01:17:24 <Arnavion> I use clang myself
  87 2012-10-08 01:18:51 <Diablo-D3> its not about like
  88 2012-10-08 01:18:57 <Diablo-D3> its about maximum bullshit coverage
  89 2012-10-08 01:19:19 <Diablo-D3> Arnavion: https://github.com/Diablo-D3/dot_vim
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  92 2012-10-08 01:23:43 <Joric> Diablo-D3, what ide are you using btw?
  93 2012-10-08 01:24:10 <Joric> i can't decide between vc2008 and vs2010
  94 2012-10-08 01:29:32 <Diablo-D3> vim!
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  96 2012-10-08 01:29:46 <Diablo-D3> you goddamned jackass
  97 2012-10-08 01:30:16 * pjorrit snickers
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  99 2012-10-08 01:32:35 <Joric> Diablo-D3, hows your business on glbse?
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 101 2012-10-08 01:33:37 * Diablo-D3 smacks Joric 
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 103 2012-10-08 01:38:53 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: okay, I still dont understand what you meant
 104 2012-10-08 01:39:10 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I malloc something, why should I give a shit about address space bullshit
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 154 2012-10-08 03:10:02 <jgarzik> sipa: cool, will take a look at the RPCs
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 156 2012-10-08 03:15:07 <DBordello> Is a transaction id (transaction hash?) always the same length?
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 158 2012-10-08 03:16:55 <DBordello> 64 characters?
 159 2012-10-08 03:17:23 <copumpkin> should be
 160 2012-10-08 03:17:59 <DBordello> peachy
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 249 2012-10-08 06:37:17 <amiller> okay my first draft attempt at a c++ red black tree is..... 350 times faster than my python one
 250 2012-10-08 06:37:28 tonikt has joined
 251 2012-10-08 06:39:23 <amiller> that's including a ton of ridiculous templating i came up with, i'm not sure whether the compiler can see through the haze or not
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 253 2012-10-08 06:43:57 <phantomcircuit> amiller, naive order processor i wrote in c++ is about 200x faster than the python version
 254 2012-10-08 06:43:59 <amiller> but the templating is necessary (as is writing my own red black tree, rather than using sys/tree.h) because the point is to use the same code in two places, 1) is the normal case where you have pointers and random access memory, but 2) is the 'merkle' validation scenario where you're simulating operations on a graph that you aren't even storing, using hashes to keep from losing your place
 255 2012-10-08 06:44:12 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 256 2012-10-08 06:44:23 <phantomcircuit> it's expected
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 264 2012-10-08 06:56:55 <Joric> bitcoinfoundation, save us! price went down 20% in two days
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 268 2012-10-08 07:09:11 <jgarzik> amiller: if only python permitted a reasonable amount of static analysis...
 269 2012-10-08 07:11:37 <amiller> my naive/overtemplated c++ llrb tree is only 3x slower than this super-tuned C version (which competes with bsd's sys/tree.h)  http://www.25thandclement.com/~william/projects/llrb.h.html
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 273 2012-10-08 07:15:02 <jgarzik> amiller: JFYI, this work is also on-going in the Linux kernel: "Generic red-black trees" http://lwn.net/Articles/500355/
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 277 2012-10-08 07:24:01 <amiller> that's really interesting, thanks jgarzik
 278 2012-10-08 07:24:16 <amiller> i'm especially interested in the comment by ncm about how binary trees are horrible on caches
 279 2012-10-08 07:25:05 lggr has joined
 280 2012-10-08 07:25:07 <amiller> he mentions "page-aware (or page-oblivious)" structures as an alternative, i read a lot about page-oblivious structures last week
 281 2012-10-08 07:27:41 <amiller> what i have in mind for batch merkle-tree validation involves a cache-oblivious priority queue
 282 2012-10-08 07:27:51 <Evilmax> ahahaha fall!...fall!
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 290 2012-10-08 07:39:24 <dr00t2nesux{away> hellos
 291 2012-10-08 07:39:52 dr00t2nesux{away is now known as dr00t2nesux
 292 2012-10-08 07:40:22 <dr00t2nesux> interested
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 297 2012-10-08 07:41:56 <Adlai> When mining with a pool, what do H-not-zero, unknown-work, etc mean?
 298 2012-10-08 07:42:16 <Adlai> most (but not all!) of my mined shares are getting rejected
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 303 2012-10-08 07:44:36 <amiller> anyway here's my code for now https://github.com/amiller/redblackmerkle/blob/llrb/c_redblack.hpp
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 306 2012-10-08 07:46:12 <amiller> now lets see if i can get through the whole blockchian
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 583 2012-10-08 16:19:00 <Guest20783> @ wizkid057 nic frontend for eloipool but i have no idea how to set it up, some documentation would be nice - ie what tables have to be created and how.
 584 2012-10-08 16:19:13 <CrazyMF> Luke-Jr, you there?
 585 2012-10-08 16:19:27 <Luke-Jr> .
 586 2012-10-08 16:19:42 <CrazyMF> I've tried the libblkmaker
 587 2012-10-08 16:19:55 <CrazyMF> not getting field "expires" from bitcoind
 588 2012-10-08 16:19:58 <CrazyMF> is this normal?
 589 2012-10-08 16:19:59 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 590 2012-10-08 16:20:22 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: yes, bitcoind doesn't expire
 591 2012-10-08 16:20:39 lggr has joined
 592 2012-10-08 16:21:11 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind<->libblkmaker still needs some work - especially a base58 parser :/
 593 2012-10-08 16:21:33 <CrazyMF> blktmpl_add_jansson seems to require expires
 594 2012-10-08 16:21:48 <CrazyMF> safe to just comment out?
 595 2012-10-08 16:22:30 <Guest20783> @ luke-jr, do i have to creaet tables for eloipool manually, and if yes what is the command?
 596 2012-10-08 16:23:14 <Luke-Jr> Guest20783: you're expected to know how to use the DB engine you want
 597 2012-10-08 16:23:41 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: probably yes
 598 2012-10-08 16:23:59 <Guest20783> yeah cool, solved [not]
 599 2012-10-08 16:24:21 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: you will find it won't work with bitcoind unless you implement coinbasevalue support (or implement coinbasetx in bitcoind)
 600 2012-10-08 16:24:59 <Luke-Jr> Guest20783: I don't think any two Eloipool installs use the same db schema
 601 2012-10-08 16:25:52 <Guest20783> in the config it looks lieke there are standard tables, however im out for the wizkid frontend which has a schema i can import as i guess
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 603 2012-10-08 16:28:09 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure wk's frontend does NOT match the example Eloipool config, FWIW
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 605 2012-10-08 16:28:22 <Luke-Jr> in fact, wk probably uses the schema on Eligius's site
 606 2012-10-08 16:28:38 <Luke-Jr> http://eligius.st/wiki/index.php/PostgreSQL_Schema
 607 2012-10-08 16:29:06 tonikt is now known as tonikt2
 608 2012-10-08 16:29:12 <Guest20783> ill try that
 609 2012-10-08 16:30:25 <CrazyMF> uhhhm
 610 2012-10-08 16:30:28 <CrazyMF> what you mean won't work?
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 612 2012-10-08 16:30:54 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: libblkmaker only implements coinbasetx mode right now
 613 2012-10-08 16:31:14 <Luke-Jr> implementing coinbasevalue requires building a coinbase tx itself, which needs a base58 parser to accept a payout address
 614 2012-10-08 16:31:51 <CrazyMF> i see
 615 2012-10-08 16:31:58 <Luke-Jr> and base58 in plain old C is … ugh
 616 2012-10-08 16:32:13 <CrazyMF> there's no way to make getblocktemplates without coinbase ?
 617 2012-10-08 16:32:51 <CrazyMF> oh yeah =/
 618 2012-10-08 16:33:14 <CrazyMF> k, googling on base58 :D
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 620 2012-10-08 16:35:10 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: Eloipool sends coinbasetx
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 622 2012-10-08 16:35:31 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: making bitcoind do the same would be pretty easy too, but you'd need to disable some caching
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 624 2012-10-08 16:36:57 <CrazyMF> not that proficient with bitcoind sources ATM =/
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 632 2012-10-08 16:42:04 <CrazyMF> wait so, how does BFG do this?
 633 2012-10-08 16:42:21 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: it doesn't support bitcoind/coinbasevalue right now
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 635 2012-10-08 16:44:35 <CrazyMF> yeah I'm kinda lost here =/
 636 2012-10-08 16:45:00 <CrazyMF> where it's actually used? cbValue
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 638 2012-10-08 16:45:09 <CrazyMF> at the miner side
 639 2012-10-08 16:45:31 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: it's not
 640 2012-10-08 16:45:59 <CrazyMF> so why do we need it?
 641 2012-10-08 16:46:24 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: well, the idea is to implement coinbasevalue support eventually :P
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 645 2012-10-08 16:48:19 <CrazyMF> I see
 646 2012-10-08 16:48:45 <gavinandresen> Did I say how much I hate bdb yet today?
 647 2012-10-08 16:48:58 <Luke-Jr> I must have missed it.
 648 2012-10-08 16:49:01 <CrazyMF> wait so, can I make the example.c do some work without coinbase[tx/value] ?
 649 2012-10-08 16:49:03 <CrazyMF> who bdb ?
 650 2012-10-08 16:49:06 <kjj_> what now?
 651 2012-10-08 16:49:14 <gavinandresen> berkeley database == bdb
 652 2012-10-08 16:49:31 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: no, at least one of coinbasetx or coinbasevalue is required for GBT, and libblkmaker only works with coinbasetx right now
 653 2012-10-08 16:49:40 <gavinandresen> Anybody know if there is a way to tell the version of a bdb environment ?
 654 2012-10-08 16:49:42 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: example.c should work out-of-the-box
 655 2012-10-08 16:49:47 <helo> byzantine db
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 657 2012-10-08 16:50:26 <Joric> you must try using sqlite it would be so much faster !!11
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 659 2012-10-08 16:51:08 <CrazyMF> it does work out the box, as long as it's using "supplied" json data :(
 660 2012-10-08 16:52:12 <Joric> speaking of, if bdb will be replaced with leveldb (eventually), what are you considering to do about wallet.dat?
 661 2012-10-08 16:52:15 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: well, any other JSON data will take forever to find a nonce for using libgcrypt's SHA256 :p
 662 2012-10-08 16:52:41 <kjj_> gavinandresen: do you mean in the software, or from the command line?
 663 2012-10-08 16:53:11 <CrazyMF> Luke-Jr, I understand that point very well. But the thing is, I want to hook this thing to Bitcoind somehow
 664 2012-10-08 16:53:26 <gavinandresen> I mean in software. I'm trying to figure out how to gracefully handle the case where a user runs a bitcoin compiled against bdb 5.* and then downgrades to bdb 4.*
 665 2012-10-08 16:53:39 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: yeah, for that you'll need to either 1) make bitcoind use coinbasetx, or 2) implement coinbasevalue in libblkmaker
 666 2012-10-08 16:53:57 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: #1 is far easier, but #2 is far more useful to others :P
 667 2012-10-08 16:54:03 <sipa> gavinandresen: can't we focus on getting rid of BDB instead? :(
 668 2012-10-08 16:54:14 <CrazyMF> is there a .conf switch for #1 ?
 669 2012-10-08 16:54:23 <gavinandresen> sipa: sure, but we'll need to support users upgrading for a very long time
 670 2012-10-08 16:54:27 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: no, you'd need to write a few lines of code
 671 2012-10-08 16:54:29 <sipa> gavinandresen: sure, agree
 672 2012-10-08 16:54:32 <kjj_> gavinandresen: in the C API, looks like there is a db_full_version call
 673 2012-10-08 16:54:44 <Joric> sipa, what about wallet.dat? json? binary blob? ascii?
 674 2012-10-08 16:54:47 <gavinandresen> kjj_: yeah, that gives you the version you're compiled against.
 675 2012-10-08 16:54:58 <Luke-Jr> Joric: sipa's custom append-only format
 676 2012-10-08 16:55:01 <sipa> Joric: binary append-only file with checksums
 677 2012-10-08 16:55:08 <kjj_> gavinandresen: ahh, but not the on-disk version...  hmm
 678 2012-10-08 16:55:14 <CrazyMF> gavinandresen, why can't we have a transitional version which converts the db to sqlite ?
 679 2012-10-08 16:55:31 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 680 2012-10-08 16:55:33 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: Joric was trolling…
 681 2012-10-08 16:55:44 <gavinandresen> CrazyMF: ummm, and you're going to compile that transitional version against what version of bdb ???
 682 2012-10-08 16:56:00 <CrazyMF> I don't mind the compiling
 683 2012-10-08 16:56:04 <CrazyMF> writing stuff is a bit harder
 684 2012-10-08 16:56:21 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 685 2012-10-08 16:57:01 <CrazyMF> wrong read. well yeah, that's a problem
 686 2012-10-08 16:58:17 <CrazyMF> can't we add a couple ./configure lines to check which one is available and do the same in "conversion" logic part inside code
 687 2012-10-08 16:58:24 boupitch has joined
 688 2012-10-08 16:59:10 <kjj_> gavinandresen: well, what can you do about it anyway?  put out a utility that is smart enough to read the new version and write the old version?
 689 2012-10-08 16:59:45 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: even with such a utility, users want the client to automatically upgrade an old install
 690 2012-10-08 16:59:53 lggr has joined
 691 2012-10-08 17:00:16 <gavinandresen> kjj_: telling the user that something is wrong in a friendly way is what I was hoping to do about it.
 692 2012-10-08 17:00:29 <CrazyMF> Luke-Jr, about that switch. Do you know where to read up on that? because it's a bit of forest full of woods for me =/
 693 2012-10-08 17:00:52 <kjj_> gavinandresen: ahh.  exec a shell to run "file $datadir/blkindex.dat" and look at the on-disk version number
 694 2012-10-08 17:01:04 <gavinandresen> e.g. "You're data directory was created with berkeley db version 5.12; this version of bitcoin can only read up to berkeley db version 4.8."
 695 2012-10-08 17:01:10 <Luke-Jr> CrazyMF: you could read the specs, but nobody's written the code for it yet; it's just not very difficult
 696 2012-10-08 17:01:18 <gavinandresen> kjj_: yeah, exec a shell doesn't work on Windows
 697 2012-10-08 17:01:26 <kjj_> heh, neither would file
 698 2012-10-08 17:02:28 <kjj_> I suppose you could check /etc/file/magic for the bytes file examines and replicate the logic.  that seems icky
 699 2012-10-08 17:02:43 <Luke-Jr> …
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 702 2012-10-08 17:03:31 <CrazyMF> you can always bundle a protable bdb with the software
 703 2012-10-08 17:03:37 <kjj_> you'd think that this would have come up at some point in the last 20 years or so and BDB would have a call built in
 704 2012-10-08 17:06:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 705 2012-10-08 17:07:15 <kjj_> hmm.  register a callback with DB_ENV->set_errcall() to intercept the crappy error message?
 706 2012-10-08 17:08:43 <gavinandresen> catching the error message isn't the problem, the problem is the error is DB_RUNRECOVERY which doesn't tell me that the problem is a version mismatch
 707 2012-10-08 17:09:32 lggr has joined
 708 2012-10-08 17:09:47 <gavinandresen> I think the best I can do with the effort I'm willing to put in is detect the DB_RUNRECOVERY and tell the user to run with a (new) -recoverdb.
 709 2012-10-08 17:10:30 <gavinandresen> -recoverdb will erase/recreate the database/ logfile directory, leaving just the .dat files.  Which are pretty compatible between bdb version.
 710 2012-10-08 17:11:05 <kjj_> er, won't that cause problems when an actual recovery is needed?
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 712 2012-10-08 17:11:59 <gavinandresen> kjj_: we erase log files at every shutdown, so "actual recovery" is never really possible.
 713 2012-10-08 17:12:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: just the .dat files are not compatible between 5.x and 4.x
 714 2012-10-08 17:12:54 <sipa> afaik
 715 2012-10-08 17:12:56 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 716 2012-10-08 17:13:04 <gavinandresen> sipa: I created a wallet.dat/blkindex.dat on 5.x, and 4.x seems to read them just fine.
 717 2012-10-08 17:13:06 <sipa> though maybe enough to be salvaged by an earlier version
 718 2012-10-08 17:13:18 <sipa> oh, really? good that i'm wrong
 719 2012-10-08 17:13:50 <gavinandresen> sipa: is peers.dat a bdb file?
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 726 2012-10-08 17:18:31 k3t3r is now known as KeTheR
 727 2012-10-08 17:18:42 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: no
 728 2012-10-08 17:18:43 <kjj_> gavinandresen: doesn't appear to be
 729 2012-10-08 17:18:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: peers.dat is straightforward serialization, 100% written to disk from memory each time
 730 2012-10-08 17:19:10 lggr has joined
 731 2012-10-08 17:19:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: using the write-to-temp-file, then rename, process.
 732 2012-10-08 17:19:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so the "file format" is simply addrman serialization
 733 2012-10-08 17:21:51 <Guest20783> @ luke, well i have to admit that i dont have the slightest clue how to get the frontend working for eloipool, any idea who i have to pay for this job and how much it should cost?
 734 2012-10-08 17:22:00 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 735 2012-10-08 17:22:16 da2ce7 has joined
 736 2012-10-08 17:23:19 <Luke-Jr> Guest20783: wizkidO57 is the expert on that all
 737 2012-10-08 17:24:01 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 738 2012-10-08 17:24:13 <Guest20783> he did not reply on any contact
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 740 2012-10-08 17:25:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: that's what I thought I remembered.  Getting: ERROR: CAddrman::Read() : invalid network magic number   ... which is confusing me
 741 2012-10-08 17:25:37 <Luke-Jr> Guest20783: give him time :P
 742 2012-10-08 17:26:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 743 2012-10-08 17:26:40 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 744 2012-10-08 17:27:04 <kjj_> gavinandresen: I hate to ask the "is it plugged in?" question, but did you move the addr.dat from test to main or the reverse?
 745 2012-10-08 17:28:13 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: sounds like a corrupted file
 746 2012-10-08 17:28:36 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: and for all intents and purposes, peers.dat is a one-record file.  You read 100%, or 0%.
 747 2012-10-08 17:29:04 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: "invalid network magic number" -- pchMessageStart is often used in files as a magic number, starting a file or record
 748 2012-10-08 17:29:16 lggr has joined
 749 2012-10-08 17:29:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: such as how each blk000n.dat record begins with pchMessageStart
 750 2012-10-08 17:30:28 <jgarzik>     CDataStream ssPeers(SER_DISK, CLIENT_VERSION);
 751 2012-10-08 17:30:28 <jgarzik>     ssPeers << FLATDATA(pchMessageStart);
 752 2012-10-08 17:30:28 <jgarzik>     ssPeers << addr;
 753 2012-10-08 17:30:28 <jgarzik>     uint256 hash = Hash(ssPeers.begin(), ssPeers.end());
 754 2012-10-08 17:30:28 <jgarzik>     ssPeers << hash;
 755 2012-10-08 17:31:03 KeTheR has quit (Quit: Fuck this shit!)
 756 2012-10-08 17:34:25 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: mmm.  pushing investigating that problem onto the stack  (started with empty testnet directory.  Synced using bdb 5.*.  Then re-reading with bdb 4.*... didn't touch peers.dat, so not sure how it would get corrupted)
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 762 2012-10-08 17:41:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that's the entire data file format, right there in db.cpp (CAddrDB):  pchMessageStart, data, hash
 763 2012-10-08 17:42:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I do notice a minor ordering bug, though.  We should check pchMessageStart earlier in the process.
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 768 2012-10-08 17:51:00 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it might not be corrupted -- as the error message indicates, that peers.dat might be from a different network.
 769 2012-10-08 17:51:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: if you are on mainnet, and you use a testnet3 peers.dat, you would see that error.
 770 2012-10-08 17:52:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I'll see if I can recreate when I'm done fixing DbEnv::Open() so it actually catches errors properly
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 775 2012-10-08 17:54:43 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: See my fun zzuf results? everything still failing. :(
 776 2012-10-08 17:56:16 drazak_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 777 2012-10-08 17:56:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup.  I may relax my goals to just handling the common cases of downgrading BDB versions and crash/copy without -detachdb
 778 2012-10-08 17:56:45 drazak_ has joined
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 780 2012-10-08 17:58:52 <gmaxwell> The segfault strengthened an expectation I've had in the past: don't run wallet files from untrusted sources outside of safe sandboxes
 781 2012-10-08 18:00:11 <jgarzik> for 0.8, I like sipa's logdb solution: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/logdb
 782 2012-10-08 18:00:15 <jgarzik> for wallet
 783 2012-10-08 18:00:32 <jgarzik> ufasoft-coin has a simple BDB importer, that looks interesting
 784 2012-10-08 18:00:53 <jgarzik> we would write our own, but that provides a nice outside reference for the BDB file format
 785 2012-10-08 18:01:10 <jgarzik> (thus you may import BDB wallets ad infinitum, without linking BDB)
 786 2012-10-08 18:01:20 <gavinandresen> that's appealing.
 787 2012-10-08 18:02:45 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: even the most perfectly checksummed file format is vulnerable to software bugs and malicious construction...  thus every single bit of input must be considered hostile and corrupt, regardless of magic number/checksum validity
 788 2012-10-08 18:03:21 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 789 2012-10-08 18:03:30 <Guest20783> is there any bitcoin rep that is supported by https://github.com/p2k/ecoinpool
 790 2012-10-08 18:03:45 <jgarzik> the data stream might be nicely serialized, checksummed, magic'd... crap ;p
 791 2012-10-08 18:04:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Sure. I'm well aware of this. This is why it's wise to test with the checksums bypassed. :P
 792 2012-10-08 18:04:10 agricocb has joined
 793 2012-10-08 18:04:32 <gmaxwell> But if it goes explody without doing any instrumentation you still have a problem. :P
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 806 2012-10-08 18:37:38 <sipa> jgarzik: i remember i wanted to make some changes to the logdb file format, but i actually can't remember anymore what or why
 807 2012-10-08 18:37:44 <sipa> do you feel anything is missing?
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 810 2012-10-08 18:41:49 <amiller> sipa, i wonder if the logdb file format is comparable to SequenceFiles? http://hadoop.apache.org/docs/current/api/org/apache/hadoop/io/SequenceFile.html
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 814 2012-10-08 18:46:12 <Guest20783> is it possible to have 2 differrent versions of bitcoind on linux or will each time i start the second one the blockchain be downloaded again from scratch?
 815 2012-10-08 18:46:41 <midnightmagic> hey gmaxwell, if I have a transaction rejection patch, does it record the txid of rejected transactions so as not to pull them from other conections, or does it forget the txid immediately, and thus if it hears about it multiple times, it actually downloads it multiple times from peers?
 816 2012-10-08 18:48:02 <Guest20783> ~hello world!
 817 2012-10-08 18:48:42 <midnightmagic> ..  it occurred to me that perhaps a simple tx rejection patch might actually be amplifying bitcoin traffic.
 818 2012-10-08 18:50:39 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 819 2012-10-08 18:51:15 TD has joined
 820 2012-10-08 18:51:28 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
 821 2012-10-08 18:51:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 202407 | Current Difficulty: 3054627.5269486 | Next Difficulty At Block: 203615 | Next Difficulty In: 1208 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 13 hours, 41 minutes, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 2995498.83138218 | Estimated Percent Change: -1.93570885631
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 825 2012-10-08 18:53:40 <TD> gavinandresen: what platforms have that issue? you mean people downgrading their bitcoin-qt install?
 826 2012-10-08 18:54:55 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 827 2012-10-08 18:55:21 <gavinandresen> TD: we are (or try to be) consistent with the version of BDB we compile against, but since we're open source people can (and do) run versions that are compiled against up-rev versions of BDB.  They run into uncaught BDB_RUNRECOVERY exceptions if they then "upgrade" to a new version of bitcoin that we distribute.
 828 2012-10-08 18:55:48 <TD> :(
 829 2012-10-08 18:56:08 <TD> the way andreas handles this sort of problem for the android app is just to export private keys to a text file. if there's an issue loading the wallet, recreate, reimport and rescan
 830 2012-10-08 18:56:27 kiceek has joined
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 833 2012-10-08 18:59:09 <BlueMatt> TD: pong
 834 2012-10-08 18:59:21 <TD> gavinandresen: alternatively, you could … you know ….. just import the bdb sources into the bitcoin tree :-)
 835 2012-10-08 18:59:39 <BlueMatt> TD: also, my hdd is on the frizt (seems to be dying) so in terms of responding to review/comments I may be a bit slow till the new one gets here...
 836 2012-10-08 18:59:40 <TD> BlueMatt: never mind, i replied on a bunch of commits as you weren't around. got quite a bit merged today, phew!
 837 2012-10-08 18:59:46 <TD> oh, that sucks. ok no worries
 838 2012-10-08 18:59:48 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 839 2012-10-08 18:59:55 <TD> my main query was over the coinbase spend depth change
 840 2012-10-08 19:00:03 <TD> i don't see what makes it only apply to spends of coinbases
 841 2012-10-08 19:00:44 [Tycho] has joined
 842 2012-10-08 19:01:01 <jgarzik> sipa: I haven't looked in-depth at logdb
 843 2012-10-08 19:01:23 <BlueMatt> for non-coinbase txn the value of depth is -200, or whatever it was set to in StoredTransactionOutput
 844 2012-10-08 19:01:24 <jgarzik> sipa: in broad strokes, an append-only format simulating a key/value database in memory works for me, as a wallet solution
 845 2012-10-08 19:01:35 <jgarzik> sipa: and you appear to have done that
 846 2012-10-08 19:01:46 <jgarzik> sipa: so I would rather move forward with logdb and add/fix as needed
 847 2012-10-08 19:02:44 lggr has joined
 848 2012-10-08 19:02:47 <BlueMatt> TD: re: throwing a VerificationException while adding a orphan block: no, probably shouldnt do that, that exception will disconnect the peer, and in this case disconnect a good peer and leave a bad peer connected
 849 2012-10-08 19:02:50 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, TD, sipa: what is the leveldb disaster recovery story?  are there external dump/fsck utilities?  must we create these?
 850 2012-10-08 19:03:09 <jgarzik> just restart, with corrupted data silently elided?
 851 2012-10-08 19:04:16 mykhal has joined
 852 2012-10-08 19:04:35 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about leveldb recovery....   but I will note that we have approximately zero recoverability with bdb right now
 853 2012-10-08 19:04:39 <TD> leveled doesn't have disasters. in the unlikely event of a cosmic ray causing data corruption, Jeff Dean will fly over from California and fix things for you by hand
 854 2012-10-08 19:05:22 <TD> BlueMatt: yes, though a new peer will be selected. and the exception will leave a trace in the logs. silently swallowing it doesn't really work either
 855 2012-10-08 19:05:49 freakazoid_ has joined
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 857 2012-10-08 19:06:16 <BlueMatt> TD: mmm, fair enough...I was thinking at some point adding an equivalent nDoS flag to Exceptions and using those to selectively disconnect peers sometime in the future (very similar to the way the reference client does it?)
 858 2012-10-08 19:06:34 <gmaxwell> TD: hah. I've seen many clients with bitflips.
 859 2012-10-08 19:06:42 <gmaxwell> "Windows quality hardware"
 860 2012-10-08 19:06:57 <TD> we did an analysis of chrome crashes. it turns out that chrome crashes in Brazil more often than anywhere else.
 861 2012-10-08 19:07:36 <TD> i.e., the software is stable enough that the bulk of all crashes are caused by hardware flakes, and in hot places like brazil where low quality parts dominate, that means more random bogosity
 862 2012-10-08 19:07:58 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah, well, i'm not a fan of how the reference client handles DoS
 863 2012-10-08 19:08:17 <TD> at least not in every case
 864 2012-10-08 19:08:26 <gmaxwell> TD: The bitsquatting paper has nice graphs of temperature vs observed iphone bitflips in dns queries.
 865 2012-10-08 19:08:29 <TD> but sure, we could always go and fix it then. my main concern is that block validation failures shouldn't be silently swallowed
 866 2012-10-08 19:08:35 <BlueMatt> TD: true, but the general "score" idea is not bad...
 867 2012-10-08 19:08:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 869 2012-10-08 19:08:44 * midnightmagic pokes gmaxwell
 870 2012-10-08 19:08:48 <TD> LevelDB has some options around aggressive checksumming
 871 2012-10-08 19:08:56 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: non-standard txns get refetched.
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 873 2012-10-08 19:09:07 <TD> I believe sipa tried it and found there was no performance hit
 874 2012-10-08 19:09:13 <TD> however it only detects corruptions
 875 2012-10-08 19:09:31 <TD> it does not try to fix them. i guess if you end up with a bit flip in the database, your node is hosed and will have to rebuild its index from scratch
 876 2012-10-08 19:09:32 <gmaxwell> TD: if they don't slay performance then we should enable... mystery corruption is much worse than detected!
 877 2012-10-08 19:09:32 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: doh. speculation of a good solution?
 878 2012-10-08 19:09:38 <jgarzik> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=3-years-in-bitcoin-digital-money-gains-momentum  </minor plug>
 879 2012-10-08 19:09:40 bitcoinz has joined
 880 2012-10-08 19:10:00 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: we should stop doing that. :P
 881 2012-10-08 19:10:22 wizkidO57 is now known as wizkid057
 882 2012-10-08 19:10:24 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's mostly harmless in any case.
 883 2012-10-08 19:10:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: "zero recoverability with BDB" -- hyperbole surely, since you may always use bdb external tools to dump whatever key/value pairs and pages survived the $Corruption_Event
 884 2012-10-08 19:10:38 <TD> jgarzik: was quite a good article i thought. obv the author was at the conference and was paying attention. factual corruption was low
 885 2012-10-08 19:10:48 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: :-) okay then, thanks for the braintime
 886 2012-10-08 19:10:58 <midnightmagic> .. and the triangulation.
 887 2012-10-08 19:11:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it requires a programmer's knowledge of bitcoin to do it effectively in bitcoin... but that's not BDB's fault
 888 2012-10-08 19:12:03 <jgarzik> TD: she sat next to me during amiller's talk.  Knew she was a journalist, but had no idea it would hit Scientific American
 889 2012-10-08 19:12:15 lggr has joined
 890 2012-10-08 19:12:45 <TD> oh, morgan is a female name? thought it was a guy
 891 2012-10-08 19:12:59 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: if a private key gets bit-flipped, then you're screwed unless you have a backup.
 892 2012-10-08 19:13:14 <Luke-Jr> sigh, more "news" articles claiming anonymity
 893 2012-10-08 19:13:32 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ... and if your master wallet key gets bit-flipped then you're even more screwed.
 894 2012-10-08 19:13:35 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yup
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 898 2012-10-08 19:13:46 <BlueMatt> TD: re: asserting if a tx is double-inserted into the inactive pool: why can you do that, could happen easily in prodnet bitcoin?
 899 2012-10-08 19:13:59 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ... and both of those may be completely undetected by the bdb layer.
 900 2012-10-08 19:14:23 <TD> you mean because duplicated transactions are allowed? i thought they would be rejected by miners
 901 2012-10-08 19:14:26 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: All of which makes me think that dealing with $corruption_events at the database layer is the wrong approach
 902 2012-10-08 19:14:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Of course.  I was thinking more about recoverability at the database level.  It is easier for the process if tools already exist to reconstruct whatever database records survived
 903 2012-10-08 19:14:35 <jgarzik> rather than binary editing
 904 2012-10-08 19:14:45 <BlueMatt> TD: on a fork sure they are
 905 2012-10-08 19:14:59 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: nothing is the whole story, wrt data corruption
 906 2012-10-08 19:15:07 <BlueMatt> TD: "at some point I changed the wallet to assert if double-inserting transactions into the inactive pool"
 907 2012-10-08 19:15:33 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: The main question to me:  if a user detects corruption $somehow, and cannot immediately jump to a backup... what is their path?
 908 2012-10-08 19:15:37 <BlueMatt> TD: or did it fail because of wallet exception instead of verificationexception?
 909 2012-10-08 19:15:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: right now, there are bdb tools that assist key/value record recovery
 910 2012-10-08 19:15:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: leveldb, not so, AFAIK
 911 2012-10-08 19:16:20 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: the main question to me is "is that common enough to worry about, or should we spend our time creating good backup solutions that solve that problem AND a bunch of others"
 912 2012-10-08 19:16:45 <TD> wallet exception. if you look at receive() then it's OK for a transaction to appear multiple times on forks and it's handled. the codepath being taken in the unit test was causing issues because it hit addWalletTransaction() for some reason. maybe i need to look closer.
 913 2012-10-08 19:17:03 <TD> jgarzik: leveldb for a wallet would be annoying, as a wallet would end up being multiple files
 914 2012-10-08 19:17:04 <BlueMatt> ah, ok, fair enough
 915 2012-10-08 19:17:06 <gmaxwell> Well recovery doesn't help you if you don't detect the error.
 916 2012-10-08 19:17:19 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: my 'graceful wallet recovery' branch tried automatically recovering using the dump/restore stuff, and as gmaxwell found out that doesn't do a good job of recovering bit-flipped wallets
 917 2012-10-08 19:17:27 <gmaxwell> e.g. get a bitflip, only notice a year later when you're failing to generate a transaction spending that particular input.
 918 2012-10-08 19:17:34 <TD> BlueMatt: right the issue was that b7 extends b4 but contained an identical transaction
 919 2012-10-08 19:17:42 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: usre
 920 2012-10-08 19:17:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: sure
 921 2012-10-08 19:17:47 <gmaxwell> You have backups... but you've rotated out ones old enough to not have the flip.
 922 2012-10-08 19:17:48 <TD> BlueMatt: because of how the unit test code is creating test transactions. so it was hitting an assert.
 923 2012-10-08 19:17:58 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that does not imply corruption recovery is free of value
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 925 2012-10-08 19:18:31 <BlueMatt> TD: ok, as long as its not hitting an error that could happen in production
 926 2012-10-08 19:18:37 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I think the recovery stuff making backup copies when things go wrong; I've seen plenty of users totally hose themselves when they start trying to fix things because they don't make backups.
 927 2012-10-08 19:18:39 <TD> no, i don't think so
 928 2012-10-08 19:18:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: people _do_ use bitcointools in case of disaster.  make backups easier all you want... that does not absolve the need for recovery tools
 929 2012-10-08 19:18:53 <TD> unless you get duplicated transactions in the main chain, i guess. that could cause an assert.
 930 2012-10-08 19:19:03 <jgarzik> "good backups" has not been solved at a macro level
 931 2012-10-08 19:19:03 <amiller> this is a question about error correction rather than checksumming isn't it?
 932 2012-10-08 19:19:04 <gmaxwell> e.g. "bitcoin won't start, I'll restore my wallet backup.. oh that wasn't it. Deleted addr.dat now it starts.. where did half my coin go?"
 933 2012-10-08 19:19:14 <jgarzik> so blaming lack of backups is just silly
 934 2012-10-08 19:19:31 <jgarzik> real world shows Smart People continue to need to send their hard drives to expensive recovery specialists
 935 2012-10-08 19:19:38 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I wasn't blaming lack of backups, see I'm talking about a specific failure mode where they don't engage in safe recovery.
 936 2012-10-08 19:19:55 <gmaxwell> E.g. they recover by destructively twiddling stuff.
 937 2012-10-08 19:20:27 <gmaxwell> The best 'recovery' tool currently is the private key extractor; but I don't think it works on encrypted wallets.
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 939 2012-10-08 19:20:52 <midnightmagic> in some kinds of commercial software structural database corruption is corrected at the database layer when possible. database contents are then corrected later, or reconstructed as much as possible from the old semi-recovered structure. and this pair of mechanisms is built directly into the server binaries.
 940 2012-10-08 19:21:20 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: -salvagewallet in my wallet recovery branch extracts all keys into a new wallet.
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 943 2012-10-08 19:23:35 <jgarzik> yeah, duh, good point -- we are not moving to leveldb.  if anything, it will be logdb.
 944 2012-10-08 19:23:49 <midnightmagic> something the tahoe people have pushed relatively far ahead is erasure-coded storage blocks with user-configurable k-of-n redundancy. zfec is open source software. i don't see why something like it couldn't be used by users looking for more careful and error-resistant key storage.
 945 2012-10-08 19:24:01 <jgarzik> leveldb is just for indices we may rebuild
 946 2012-10-08 19:24:26 <jgarzik> and wallet+logdb recoverability is straightforward
 947 2012-10-08 19:26:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I know. — and I do think we should merge that.
 948 2012-10-08 19:26:28 <amiller> jgarzik, sipa, i don't understand why logdb uses a chain of secure hashes, rather than erasure coding? isn't that solving the wrong problem w.r.t wallets?
 949 2012-10-08 19:26:38 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: wallets are small. Screw RS codes. Just make N copies.
 950 2012-10-08 19:27:08 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'm about to push another change, specifically for "ran a different version of BDB" problem.
 951 2012-10-08 19:27:11 <gmaxwell> Also internal file reduancy gets tripped up dealing with the underlying filesystem screwing you.
 952 2012-10-08 19:27:33 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: after much experimentation, I think just telling the user there is a problem and telling them how to fix it is the right thing to do.
 953 2012-10-08 19:27:48 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: RS-type codes could also be in the form of shamir's secret-sharing, in which case < k = provably perfect secret-keeping.
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 955 2012-10-08 19:27:58 <gavinandresen> "Error initializing database environment %s;  To recover, BACKUP THAT DIRECTORY, then remove everything from it except for wallet.dat."
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 957 2012-10-08 19:28:14 <jgarzik> amiller: chain-of-hashes is what bitcoin and git both use :)
 958 2012-10-08 19:28:17 <jgarzik> it is quite familiar :)
 959 2012-10-08 19:28:21 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: an RS code achieves that too, so long as you don't use the 0 basis polynomial (the original data) as one of the syndromes.
 960 2012-10-08 19:28:30 <jgarzik> I think we like chain-of-hashes around here.  ;p
 961 2012-10-08 19:28:40 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: but that has ?? applicablity here.
 962 2012-10-08 19:28:57 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: if you want to split up your wallet thats fine. I think that has no business in the reference client.
 963 2012-10-08 19:29:09 <jgarzik> also, logdb enables total separate of wallet from [BDB | leveldb] database environment
 964 2012-10-08 19:29:10 <jgarzik> yay!
 965 2012-10-08 19:29:17 <jgarzik> -wallet=FILE is easy
 966 2012-10-08 19:29:22 <jgarzik> wallets become more transportable
 967 2012-10-08 19:29:26 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
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 969 2012-10-08 19:29:59 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: it does when you guys are discussing the bitflip problem, and it solves the nature of secure wallet storage too, without worrying about a single bitflip ruining any dependent encryption.
 970 2012-10-08 19:30:48 <jgarzik> Meta: why am I thumping logdb?  Because wallet format should change at the same time as block/tx index format...  easier to get all the format changes done at once.
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 974 2012-10-08 19:31:10 <jgarzik> Users understand big upgrades are occurring under the hood, with 0.8
 975 2012-10-08 19:31:42 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: making N copies solves errors much better. (and efficient erasure codes can't be used with erasure detection in any case)
 976 2012-10-08 19:32:27 <midnightmagic> RS coding itself is information dispersal; but it is not secret-holding information dispersal.
 977 2012-10-08 19:32:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you think? hm.  How should wallet updates work? I was contemplating that when we do the wallet upgrade we should actually break the upgrader into a seperate executable, one that bitcoin could invoke for the user.
 978 2012-10-08 19:32:57 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: the error-correcting aspects of RS can be used to recover limited subset of data. RS is *NOT* secret-keeping.
 979 2012-10-08 19:33:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: read bdb, write logdb, rename bdb to intentionally break downgrades
 980 2012-10-08 19:34:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: treat it similarly to the event of wallet plaintext -> encrypt
 981 2012-10-08 19:34:09 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Yes, wtf I've written several RS implementations. I know what it is. I don't think it's applicable to this.
 982 2012-10-08 19:34:12 <Luke-Jr> ideal would be a bidirectional conversion program the client invokes, but I'm not sure how much effort people want to put into it <.<
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 985 2012-10-08 19:35:05 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: I think m of n is not a good model for wallet protection both for user factors reasons and for basic reliablity and software complexity.
 986 2012-10-08 19:35:48 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: theoretically we delete the bdb linkage entirely.  leveldb will recreate blockchain indices.  some wallet bdb import code should remain, possibly for a very long time.
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 988 2012-10-08 19:36:10 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: evading the fs crapping on you requires putting the syndromes in seperate files.  And users will not interact well with 'you need N of these M files, and you can't mix them up'
 989 2012-10-08 19:36:27 <jgarzik> maybe force re-encryption with new wallet passphrase?
 990 2012-10-08 19:36:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think luke and I are thinking that the bdb linkage should be in a seperate conversion util that is packaged with, which bitcoin could invoke.
 991 2012-10-08 19:36:37 <jgarzik> or would that open up more security problems than it solves
 992 2012-10-08 19:36:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: making users change passphrases == coin loss.
 993 2012-10-08 19:37:36 <gmaxwell> it should be possible to migrate an already encrypted wallet without decrypting anything.
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 995 2012-10-08 19:37:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: separate conversion util seems more likely to generate user reports of "where did my money go?" than built-in conversion
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 998 2012-10-08 19:38:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: It could be functionally built in. E.g. bitcoin could invoke the utility. But going that route lets us get BDB completely out of the process.
 999 2012-10-08 19:38:33 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: n copies and verification of n copies is almost all the way there anyway. it sounds like what you're really arguing against is n copies of the wallet strewn across storage mediums.
1000 2012-10-08 19:38:46 Qasaur has joined
1001 2012-10-08 19:38:49 <Qasaur> Hey guys
1002 2012-10-08 19:38:56 <Qasaur> Is it worth buying Bitcoins now?
1003 2012-10-08 19:38:58 <Qasaur> or should I wait
1004 2012-10-08 19:39:18 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: no, since we have to support this external wallet conversion utility, BDB is effectively always with us
1005 2012-10-08 19:39:35 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: No. I'm saying that using an RS code to achieve M!=N is not interesting, will cause coin loss, extra implementation complexity (not just for us but for any tools that works with wallets), etc.
1006 2012-10-08 19:39:45 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: the complexity difference is minimal for rs- and/or sss-based wallet storage vs. n copies. in any event, you guys were discussing bitflipped wallets where encrypted keys are essentially lost. sss- or rs-based or n copies is the solution.
1007 2012-10-08 19:39:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: unless by "completely out of process" you simply mean bitcoind, rather than the Bitcoin Build Process
1008 2012-10-08 19:40:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: It's not in the bitcoind address space shitting on valgrind output with uninitilized reads to suppress and such.
1009 2012-10-08 19:40:12 <gavinandresen> can we switch to talking about 0.7.1 for a bit?
1010 2012-10-08 19:40:17 <jgarzik> we should drop BDB as a dependency, and such a wallet conversion utility prevents that.
1011 2012-10-08 19:40:29 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I don't really have a strong opinion though.
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1014 2012-10-08 19:41:25 <gavinandresen> I want to pull https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1917  then rebase 1895 on top of it.
1015 2012-10-08 19:41:27 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I dread another release ... because it seems like a lot of people are having their database files not survive 0.6.3->0.7.0 and I don't know why since the bdb version is the same.
1016 2012-10-08 19:41:50 <gmaxwell> oh you're pondering some of the same problems.
1017 2012-10-08 19:41:56 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: i think it's interesting if it's sss-based. I disagree with the coin loss thing, but it is extra implementation complexity. I am not saying *do this* I'm just saying it's a good solution/alternative to transaction logs.
1018 2012-10-08 19:42:26 <midnightmagic> anyway, shower time.  thanks for the triangulation.
1019 2012-10-08 19:42:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: So, advising people to remove the database directory is quite risky.
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1021 2012-10-08 19:43:20 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if the wallet was not flushed (bad shutdown timing) and you remove the database directory I think none of the BDB tools will ever read it again.
1022 2012-10-08 19:43:37 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ... hence the advice to BACKUP
1023 2012-10-08 19:44:08 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: actually, I believe salvage WILL read it
1024 2012-10-08 19:45:14 <jgarzik> it should
1025 2012-10-08 19:45:38 <gmaxwell> OK. I wasn't completely sure, its certantly harder to recover from that.
1026 2012-10-08 19:45:44 <gmaxwell> hm.
1027 2012-10-08 19:46:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: gavinandresen: in case you missed it, someone was in here the other day with a corrupt environment from a "clean" exit of bitcoin-qt
1028 2012-10-08 19:46:43 <jgarzik> gavinandresen:  you will need to apply my just-posted comment to #1895
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1030 2012-10-08 19:46:51 <gmaxwell> what I've advised people to do before is go back to the other version and stop cleanly... but thats complicated and compliance with that is terrible. (They say they've done this, but when I eventually get their debug logs from them I find they were running the other version all along).. and doesn't work when the other version just crashes.
1031 2012-10-08 19:47:41 <Luke-Jr> (I put "clean" in quotes because he wasn't using -detachdb)
1032 2012-10-08 19:48:00 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: you mean 1917...  RE: exception checks:  ACK, will do that.  Most of the code assumed returns-error-code error handling.
1033 2012-10-08 19:48:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I mean #1895, as I said :)
1034 2012-10-08 19:48:43 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it relies on env exceptions as well, which must change, if you disable them in #1917
1035 2012-10-08 19:48:56 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ACK
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1039 2012-10-08 19:57:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: why close NODE_VALIDATION, its clearly required moving forward, so discussion of how to do it needs to happen
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1043 2012-10-08 19:59:54 <BlueMatt> (and Id argue is a prerequisite to merging ultraprune)
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1046 2012-10-08 20:12:11 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it is easy enough to recreate and put in the ultraprune pile
1047 2012-10-08 20:13:00 <BlueMatt> dont really care, just seems counterproductive to close it now that it was opened...
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1053 2012-10-08 20:22:55 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: if it belongs in another pull request, then it just creates more coordination work to have another pull request open
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1116 2012-10-08 22:22:24 * jgarzik needs to filter the string "optionsmodel" out of his email ;p
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1125 2012-10-08 22:41:55 <sipa> jgarzik: ok
1126 2012-10-08 22:42:12 <sipa> jgarzik: in leveldb, i think "opening" and "recovering" is the same thing
1127 2012-10-08 22:42:27 <sipa> and in my branch, checksum checking is enabled
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1129 2012-10-08 22:43:00 <sipa> i haven't ever seen any corruption, even when removing the power cable from the computer while doing IBD with -loadblock
1130 2012-10-08 22:43:15 lggr has joined
1131 2012-10-08 22:43:21 <sipa> (note, HEAD did get a corruption in similar circumstances)
1132 2012-10-08 22:43:37 <sipa> but this is anecdotecal evidence at best
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1142 2012-10-08 22:53:35 <midnightmagic> huh. how about that..: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.80.2829&rep=rep1&type=pdf
1143 2012-10-08 22:53:47 * midnightmagic was misinformed.
1144 2012-10-08 22:54:29 <sipa> hmm?
1145 2012-10-08 22:55:37 <midnightmagic> re: reed-solomon codes. it turns out it is possible to construct not only a threshold-only reed-solomon, but it benefits from the error-correction of an rs.
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1148 2012-10-08 22:56:05 <midnightmagic> (and allows you to detect cheaters, apparently)
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1150 2012-10-08 23:01:32 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: Yes, I thought that was my very first response to you when you started going about it.
1151 2012-10-08 23:02:00 <gmaxwell> You just don't use the original point as any of the included syndromes... and you encrypt them.
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1155 2012-10-08 23:10:17 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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1172 2012-10-08 23:31:03 <bcb_> what is the min or avg tx_fee to sent for bitcoind
1173 2012-10-08 23:31:09 <bcb_> set
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1183 2012-10-08 23:41:23 <slush> Are there some conditions under which testnet3 difficulty is restarted to 1?
1184 2012-10-08 23:41:34 <sipa> not restarted
1185 2012-10-08 23:41:46 <sipa> but after 20 minutes of no block, a single block with difficulty 1 is allowed
1186 2012-10-08 23:41:56 <gmaxwell> There is also another one.
1187 2012-10-08 23:42:08 <slush> I see difficulty 1 in ./bitcoind getinfo
1188 2012-10-08 23:42:14 <gmaxwell> If the above condition happens at a retarget it can knock it back to 1..
1189 2012-10-08 23:42:33 <gmaxwell> (persistantly, not just the 20 minutes thing)
1190 2012-10-08 23:42:40 <gmaxwell> slush: yes, it shows that after the 20 minute thing.
1191 2012-10-08 23:42:47 <slush> oh
1192 2012-10-08 23:42:48 <sipa> ah yes, the joy of special rules for testnet, and its weird interactions with the rest of the code :)
1193 2012-10-08 23:43:14 <sipa> slush: getinfo actually calls the block creation logic, and checks which difficulty was created, i think
1194 2012-10-08 23:44:06 <slush> ok, thanks. Now I have to find why my code started producing invalid blocks in this situation :(
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