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44 2012-10-09 01:17:26 <cryptorific> does anyone know if an increase in bitcoin hash rate increases the variance in the time between blocks being generated?
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49 2012-10-09 01:22:22 <gmaxwell> cryptorific: No, it doesn't.
50 2012-10-09 01:22:51 <gmaxwell> cryptorific: Well depending on exactly what you're asking.
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52 2012-10-09 01:23:24 <gmaxwell> E.g. if the hash rate is increasing right now then until difficulty catches up the time will be reduced.
53 2012-10-09 01:24:24 <gmaxwell> And that would increase the variance if you measured in that window when it changed. But I assumed what you were really asking is is the variance scale dependent.
54 2012-10-09 01:24:39 <gmaxwell> (e.g. does the overall hashrate / difficulty change it) and the answer to that is no.
55 2012-10-09 01:25:07 <cryptorific> so as i understand it, blocks should be generated every 10 mins, and theres going to be some variance, sometimes 8 minutes sometime 12, etc, theres gonna be a statistical variance (eg 95% of blocks will be generated within 10 minutes +/- x minutes),
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57 2012-10-09 01:26:37 <cryptorific> does an increased network hash rate cause that vairence, x, to change, eg. high hashrate will lead to higher varience, versus lower hashrate to lower varience
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59 2012-10-09 01:29:20 <cryptorific> i could see this being a problem, if everyone gets ASIC's and the hash rate goes up very high and the variance increases to the point where, the average time is 10 minutes but we end up with waves of blocks and long periods of no blocks, eg, 2-3 hours
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61 2012-10-09 01:31:17 <cryptorific> if it is the case that the variance does increase with hash rate
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69 2012-10-09 01:38:15 <cryptorific> hmmm, kind of an answer but not really http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4668/does-variability-of-block-solution-time-change-as-difficulty-increases/4669#4669
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71 2012-10-09 01:39:15 <cryptorific> nevermind
72 2012-10-09 01:39:21 <cryptorific> that is an answer
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196 2012-10-09 04:47:17 <jgarzik> let's see how long -reindex takes, now that it stuffs everything into a big bdb transaction ;-)
197 2012-10-09 04:47:49 * jgarzik thinks sipa's "do it within the environment" will take significantly longer than rm "blkindex.dat" ;p
198 2012-10-09 04:48:03 <jgarzik> if it doesn't blow up on some BDB transaction size limit
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205 2012-10-09 04:55:08 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: it probably will - even large reorgs hit limits there
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258 2012-10-09 06:56:27 <sipa> jgarzik: heh?
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421 2012-10-09 13:07:35 <jgarzik> the forum is such a clown circus
422 2012-10-09 13:07:41 <jgarzik> now Nefario has a scammer tag
423 2012-10-09 13:07:52 <jgarzik> and there is a lot thread about giving one to theymos as well
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426 2012-10-09 13:10:34 <kjj_> I'm not sure that Nefario deserves one. Theymos almost certainly does not.
427 2012-10-09 13:11:11 <kjj_> the forum has a whole new english. words there don't mean what they mean in the real world
428 2012-10-09 13:13:51 <epscy> it's a hive of scum and villainy all right
429 2012-10-09 13:13:56 <epscy> why i like it
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433 2012-10-09 13:14:39 <kjj_> it doesn't help that the community is made up of bitcoin enthusiasts trying to create businesses that they don't know how to run
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461 2012-10-09 13:36:29 <epscy> kjj_: makes for some great drama though
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478 2012-10-09 14:06:40 <jgarzik> kjj_: yep
479 2012-10-09 14:06:56 <jgarzik> kjj_: kids with more ambition than legal sense or business experience
480 2012-10-09 14:09:33 <edcba> or programming experience
481 2012-10-09 14:10:03 <drizztbsd> programming experience ftw
482 2012-10-09 14:10:12 <helo> would it be a bad thing to allow different crypto schemes to coexist?
483 2012-10-09 14:10:34 <helo> e.g. lamport signatures alongside ecdsa
484 2012-10-09 14:10:43 <edcba> oh in scripts
485 2012-10-09 14:10:48 <edcba> no it wouldn't
486 2012-10-09 14:10:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
487 2012-10-09 14:11:15 <edcba> that was also the aim of scripts too i think
488 2012-10-09 14:11:32 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
489 2012-10-09 14:12:08 * edcba google lamport signatures
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491 2012-10-09 14:12:18 <helo> it would be unhealthy for the blockchain to allow lamport sigs freely because of their size
492 2012-10-09 14:12:23 <edcba> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature
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495 2012-10-09 14:13:37 <edcba> ...sign only a single message, seems ok until now
496 2012-10-09 14:13:52 <Luke-Jr> helo: maybe charge more realistic fees for lamport
497 2012-10-09 14:14:06 <Luke-Jr> edcba: it'd need to enforce one-time-use addresses
498 2012-10-09 14:14:14 yellowhat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
499 2012-10-09 14:14:22 <Luke-Jr> (which is already advisable)
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501 2012-10-09 14:14:54 <edcba> 8kb...
502 2012-10-09 14:14:59 <helo> if a qc-safe signature scheme like lamport was permitted with the right restrictions, people could park large coin in them for extended storage
503 2012-10-09 14:15:04 <edcba> yeah looks like a bit big :)
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506 2012-10-09 14:15:51 <jgarzik> gah
507 2012-10-09 14:16:04 <jgarzik> It's embarrassing when pynode's IBD is faster than bitcoind's IBD
508 2012-10-09 14:16:16 <helo> if just two fundamentally different schemes were available, it could make people feel much more secure if some cryptanalysis yeilds a weakness on ecdsa
509 2012-10-09 14:16:32 <edcba> ok i didn't really understand everything but looks like interesting signature scheme
510 2012-10-09 14:16:58 <helo> it would be nice to introduce an alternative scheme now, while there isn't any pressure
511 2012-10-09 14:17:07 <edcba> you can with script
512 2012-10-09 14:17:19 <edcba> you can introduce rot13 scheme
513 2012-10-09 14:17:24 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: are you really surprised? :P
514 2012-10-09 14:17:29 <helo> i don't think you can... a lot of ops aren't enabled
515 2012-10-09 14:17:32 <edcba> and other wonderful scheme like that
516 2012-10-09 14:17:40 tower has joined
517 2012-10-09 14:17:42 <edcba> what !
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520 2012-10-09 14:20:48 <Eliel_> what is IBD short for? Isomething Block Database?
521 2012-10-09 14:20:57 <helo> initial block download
522 2012-10-09 14:21:08 <helo> *blockchain
523 2012-10-09 14:21:31 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: in what way? (-loadblock/lan node/public p2p) multithreaded sigchecking, etc?
524 2012-10-09 14:23:33 lggr has joined
525 2012-10-09 14:23:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: both are via network
526 2012-10-09 14:23:48 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: both are vanilla git HEAD, which excluded M-T sigchecking
527 2012-10-09 14:24:01 <BlueMatt> does pynode do m-t sigchecking?
528 2012-10-09 14:24:06 <jgarzik> no
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530 2012-10-09 14:24:39 <BlueMatt> so...the improvement is just doing a sane ibd download algorithm? (multi-peer/etc)
531 2012-10-09 14:25:03 BitcoinBaltar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
532 2012-10-09 14:25:17 <BlueMatt> (and Im assuming you used the same set of nodes/equivalent set for both)
533 2012-10-09 14:25:31 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
534 2012-10-09 14:25:36 <drizztbsd> you can download the block from http
535 2012-10-09 14:25:48 * BlueMatt facepalm
536 2012-10-09 14:26:11 <drizztbsd> bitcoin 0.7.0 has the check functionality
537 2012-10-09 14:27:55 <BlueMatt> the point of running a benchmark isnt to download fast, its to compare in some given setting...
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616 2012-10-09 16:05:47 <jgarzik> wow
617 2012-10-09 16:05:49 <jgarzik> 35aba798
618 2012-10-09 16:05:49 <jgarzik> 10/09/12 15:54:27 stored orphan tx 74bab27d8e (mapsz 10001)
619 2012-10-09 16:05:49 <jgarzik> 10/09/12 15:54:27 mapOrphan overflow, removed 1 tx
620 2012-10-09 16:05:53 <jgarzik> never hit that before
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622 2012-10-09 16:06:04 <jgarzik> it is due to bitcoind's IBD taking >24 hours
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624 2012-10-09 16:06:13 * jgarzik hopes no wallet transactions were in there
625 2012-10-09 16:06:36 <OneEyed> Shouldn't it not store memory pool transactions while being far behind the blockchain top?
626 2012-10-09 16:07:07 <jgarzik> <shrug>
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628 2012-10-09 16:07:41 <sipa> yeah, i think just about all mempool stuff can be disabled while in IBD
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630 2012-10-09 16:08:43 <OneEyed> Except those related to the bitcoind wallet or injected through RPC
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632 2012-10-09 16:09:16 <OneEyed> jgarzik: even if related to the wallet, they should have been at least propagated to peers, right?
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637 2012-10-09 16:10:44 <gmaxwell> It could be disabled but.. unless it's a performance problem, why bother?
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647 2012-10-09 16:13:58 <OneEyed> gmaxwell: you probably take more time to handle a new block, since I guess you check if transactions must be removed from mempool. It's not much per block, but after the memory pool is full and the block number increases, it starts to add. It will probably increase the memory pressure even more.
648 2012-10-09 16:14:37 <jgarzik> orphans are capped at 10,000
649 2012-10-09 16:14:45 <jgarzik> don't think mempool has a cap
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661 2012-10-09 16:18:04 <jgarzik> someone who gave up on running a full node due to IBD: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117216.msg1258952#msg1258952
662 2012-10-09 16:18:20 <TD> ouch, poor nefario
663 2012-10-09 16:18:41 <TD> on the other hand, it was inevitable. he must have been warned previously
664 2012-10-09 16:18:43 <jgarzik> maybe 0.7.1 is being too cautious, and we should adopt ultraprune ASAP, to release 0.8 more quickly, to forestall the loss of full nodes
665 2012-10-09 16:18:58 <jgarzik> TD: the scammer tag on Nefario is just silly
666 2012-10-09 16:19:05 <jgarzik> TD: the legal troubles... entirely predictable
667 2012-10-09 16:19:33 <gavinandresen> he won't be the last bitcoiner to get stuck in the legal swamp
668 2012-10-09 16:19:34 <TD> i'd like to see ultraprune reviewed and merged ASAP but it's up to gavin. i guess we can help by reviewing the patch, although it's huuuuge
669 2012-10-09 16:19:49 <TD> i started until i realized reviewing commits in isolation is a waste of time
670 2012-10-09 16:20:05 <TD> then i switched to chewing through matts changes to make bitcoinj fully validating
671 2012-10-09 16:20:43 <TD> and yes. legal swamps abound. in future i'd like to see tutorials, libraries etc to help people build truly P2P solutions right from the start
672 2012-10-09 16:20:48 <jgarzik> yeah for ultraprune, reviewing as One Big Diff helps
673 2012-10-09 16:21:04 <TD> there are too many people who just default to "make a web app, charge some fees, run a company" as the solution to any problem
674 2012-10-09 16:21:13 <jgarzik> yep
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676 2012-10-09 16:22:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: do you have a 0.7.1 list tagged in github issues, or anything like that?
677 2012-10-09 16:22:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: could we do a 0.7.1rc1 today?
678 2012-10-09 16:23:07 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yes, I created a 0.7.1 milestone, and yes, lets to a 0.7.1rc1 today
679 2012-10-09 16:24:36 <sipa> jgarzik: for ultraprune i actually tried to make sure all commits are more or less standalone changes, to make reviewing easier (and not do things like code movement, for exmaple)
680 2012-10-09 16:24:43 <sipa> but i guess it's just too much
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682 2012-10-09 16:25:40 <jgarzik> sipa: just need to get the base package of database + database index changes in bitcoin.git/master, then changes should flow much easier I think
683 2012-10-09 16:26:22 <jgarzik> major changes always create a backlog somewhere :/ Nothing to do but get the basics into the upstream tree rapidly
684 2012-10-09 16:26:56 <sipa> true, maybe i should have waited doing several of the extra optimizations afterwards in the same branch
685 2012-10-09 16:27:07 <sipa> but then again, i had time back then, and don't have too much time now :)
686 2012-10-09 16:27:33 killers has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
687 2012-10-09 16:27:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: by the way, the peers.dat pchMessageStart issue was a red herring (I need to update the testnet3 testnet-in-a-box.zip on Sourceforge)
688 2012-10-09 16:27:51 PK has quit (Quit: Leaving)
689 2012-10-09 16:28:21 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it highlighted a minor bug that wanted fixing anyway, so it's a positive thing regardless
690 2012-10-09 16:30:03 <gavinandresen> ok, pulled "handle corrupt wallets better", I spent time yesterday testing that agai
691 2012-10-09 16:30:21 <sipa> jgarzik, gavinandresen: would it help if i wrote down a summary of the major infrastructure changes that the ultraprune branch has?
692 2012-10-09 16:30:22 <jgarzik> cool, that will make fixing -reindex easier
693 2012-10-09 16:30:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
694 2012-10-09 16:30:43 <gavinandresen> sipa: sure, a high-level design doc would be very helpful
695 2012-10-09 16:30:48 <jgarzik> sipa: probably, yes
696 2012-10-09 16:31:02 <sipa> i started writing a document with the details of the encodings as well, but haven't finished that
697 2012-10-09 16:31:49 <gavinandresen> sipa: be sure to include a section on upgrade/downgrade issues, those are always easy to forget until users start, you know, running old versions of bitcoin because they click on the wrong thing....
698 2012-10-09 16:32:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: the ultraprune pull request and commit message are quite extensive already, but give more of an idea, not implementation details
699 2012-10-09 16:32:17 <gavinandresen> sipa: a test plan would also be helpful, I think.
700 2012-10-09 16:32:44 <sipa> oh, by the way: i have been mining with ultraprune for 1.5 weeks now, and have actually found a block with it
701 2012-10-09 16:33:32 <MC1984> damn, instant couple hundred dollar
702 2012-10-09 16:33:34 <MC1984> nice
703 2012-10-09 16:33:43 <sipa> MC1984: on p2pool, unfortunately :)
704 2012-10-09 16:33:59 <MC1984> ah well its all good
705 2012-10-09 16:34:02 <sipa> i got like 0.3 BTC from it
706 2012-10-09 16:34:12 <TD> hah
707 2012-10-09 16:34:23 <TD> i've been using ultraprune on my laptop too
708 2012-10-09 16:34:31 <sipa> TD: any more issues?
709 2012-10-09 16:34:32 lggr has joined
710 2012-10-09 16:34:34 <MC1984> very rarely do open source devs code directly spit money at them at all
711 2012-10-09 16:34:36 <TD> other than the time it got itself hopelessly corrupted and i had to resync from the network, no issues
712 2012-10-09 16:34:44 <TD> :)
713 2012-10-09 16:34:51 <TD> but that failure mode is not new
714 2012-10-09 16:35:08 <TD> it'd be nice to have a flag to reprocess all the blk dat files though, so at least you can recover without downloading from remote peers
715 2012-10-09 16:35:33 <sipa> TD: jgarzik's -reindex intends to do that
716 2012-10-09 16:36:16 <jgarzik> sipa: does the ultraprune forum post or any existing contain a "rationale"? i.e. not necessarily defining the high level design, but describing the problems being solved by the design
717 2012-10-09 16:36:22 <jgarzik> *any existing doc
718 2012-10-09 16:36:45 <sipa> i've been writing several things about it in several stages
719 2012-10-09 16:37:04 <sipa> but i'm not sure whether i've covered all of it
720 2012-10-09 16:37:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Day job will likely prevent -reindex completion in time for rc1
721 2012-10-09 16:37:30 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I assumed that, no problem.
722 2012-10-09 16:37:34 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
723 2012-10-09 16:37:52 <jgarzik> things I think we desperately need in 0.8, to keep users from abandoning full nodes for web wallets: ultraprune, wallet logdb, better peer selection/rotation
724 2012-10-09 16:38:30 <jgarzik> add client mode to the list, and that sounds like bitcoin 1.0
725 2012-10-09 16:38:47 <jgarzik> (client mode obviously not 0.8 material, just to be clear)
726 2012-10-09 16:39:31 <sipa> jgarzik: btw, ultraprune's database changes include adding a flag field to the block index, which contains information about the degree of verification that block has
727 2012-10-09 16:39:52 <sipa> jgarzik: so it should be able to support things like multi-stage downloading/processing, headers-first mode, or headers-only mode
728 2012-10-09 16:40:11 <jgarzik> sipa: wallet already stores full merkle branch, right? (just to confirm)
729 2012-10-09 16:40:15 <sipa> yes
730 2012-10-09 16:40:25 <sipa> CWalletTx inherits from CMerkleTx
731 2012-10-09 16:40:47 <helo> client mode is somewhat like electrum?
732 2012-10-09 16:40:54 <TD> no
733 2012-10-09 16:40:57 <sipa> helo: HELL NO
734 2012-10-09 16:40:58 <TD> like multibit
735 2012-10-09 16:41:01 * jgarzik watches helo troll gmaxwell ;-)
736 2012-10-09 16:41:02 <sipa> electrum is not a node
737 2012-10-09 16:41:12 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
738 2012-10-09 16:41:22 JZavala has joined
739 2012-10-09 16:41:26 JZavala has quit (Client Quit)
740 2012-10-09 16:41:40 <gmaxwell> hah.
741 2012-10-09 16:42:29 <sipa> afk
742 2012-10-09 16:43:01 <jgarzik> post ultraprune, was primarily thinking of wallet birthdays (#1863) in the context of client mode... simply go headers only until wallet birthday.
743 2012-10-09 16:43:35 <jgarzik> the main issue is uncommon events requiring a full rescan, like key import
744 2012-10-09 16:43:42 denisx has joined
745 2012-10-09 16:44:07 lggr has joined
746 2012-10-09 16:44:30 balrog has joined
747 2012-10-09 16:44:33 <gavinandresen> I don't care if key import is slow-- it should be a rare event. Importing multiple keys at once should be supported, though, so just one scan is needed.
748 2012-10-09 16:44:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think 1.0 also needs wallet + backend seperation so people can run just one backend and many wallets (useful for merchants, VPSes, privacy), and allows you to e.g. use a wallet remotely like a thin client off your own full node. Running one node is no big deal, running N nodes, even SPV ones, for N uses of bitcoin is a bit obnoxious, and a lack of support for that promotes thin/web clients.
749 2012-10-09 16:44:53 <gavinandresen> (I do like the idea of "key birthdays", too....)
750 2012-10-09 16:45:08 <gmaxwell> Yea, key birthdays are kind of a no brainer win.
751 2012-10-09 16:45:15 <TD> bitcoinj already does it
752 2012-10-09 16:45:17 <TD> it definitely helps
753 2012-10-09 16:45:23 <jgarzik> I think I stole the idea from bitcoinj
754 2012-10-09 16:45:33 <TD> well getheaders was there since v0.1 right?
755 2012-10-09 16:45:34 <TD> i think
756 2012-10-09 16:45:42 <TD> so it was part of satoshis plan all along
757 2012-10-09 16:45:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: support the idea -- but I think that's beyond 1.0 land, in terms of dev process
758 2012-10-09 16:46:11 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I don't think Satoshi wanted 'perfect' for 1.0, just full node | client mode
759 2012-10-09 16:46:39 <epscy> what is a key birthday
760 2012-10-09 16:46:41 <gmaxwell> (not to mention the security implications, I'm still a little horrified by inbound connections from the internet to a process that has the private keys in memory)
761 2012-10-09 16:47:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: shall we import fork from cygwin, for windows? :)
762 2012-10-09 16:47:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, well... fine enough version defintions are whatever. In my mind if software never got another feature beyond 1.0 the world wouldn't care much. But thats a pretty different definition.
763 2012-10-09 16:47:47 <jgarzik> TD: no, getheaders was more recent
764 2012-10-09 16:47:58 <gavinandresen> All righty, any objections to me tagging current git HEAD as 0.7.1 ?
765 2012-10-09 16:48:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: in windows you'd run 'bitcoind' as a service, then startup the wallet as required. (and if bitcoind is not running, the wallet would just fire it up)
766 2012-10-09 16:48:03 * jgarzik goes to check the hist
767 2012-10-09 16:48:22 * gmaxwell looks
768 2012-10-09 16:48:25 <gavinandresen> (well, after one final commit that bumps version numbers)
769 2012-10-09 16:49:35 <gavinandresen> mmm... need release notes....
770 2012-10-09 16:50:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
771 2012-10-09 16:50:32 maaku has joined
772 2012-10-09 16:50:49 <jgarzik> TD: getheaders is not in <= 0.3.24
773 2012-10-09 16:50:54 <jgarzik> TD: getheaders is in 0.4.0
774 2012-10-09 16:51:06 <jgarzik> unless I'm missing something
775 2012-10-09 16:54:48 lggr has joined
776 2012-10-09 16:55:05 <TD> hmm
777 2012-10-09 16:55:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: on another topic, I think people expect -rescan to imply "fsck -fvy /dev/wallet"
778 2012-10-09 16:55:09 <TD> i thought it was around longer than that
779 2012-10-09 16:55:16 form- is now known as form_
780 2012-10-09 16:55:24 <TD> i guess i need to make sure bcj doesn't send it to older peers then!
781 2012-10-09 16:56:00 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yup. I assume that comment is in response to my somewhat silly issue on the subject? I'm not sure how to handle it. Beyond irking me to see it constantly recommended I don't know that it causes much harm beyond wasting people's time.
782 2012-10-09 16:56:17 tonikt has joined
783 2012-10-09 16:56:27 <jgarzik> TD: getheaders was added in...
784 2012-10-09 16:56:29 <jgarzik> commit f03304a9c79a6cc6096ed501ad38702fd012e7f7
785 2012-10-09 16:56:29 <jgarzik> Author: s_nakamoto <s_nakamoto@1a98c847-1fd6-4fd8-948a-caf3550aa51b>
786 2012-10-09 16:56:29 <jgarzik> Date: Sun Dec 5 09:29:30 2010 +0000
787 2012-10-09 16:56:29 <jgarzik> preps for future client-only mode,
788 2012-10-09 16:56:41 <TD> ah ha
789 2012-10-09 16:57:01 <BlueMatt> thats well before 0.3.24, no?
790 2012-10-09 16:57:12 <jgarzik> serialize.h:static const int VERSION = 31703;
791 2012-10-09 16:57:16 <gmaxwell> Dec 2010? not that far before..
792 2012-10-09 16:57:17 <jgarzik> TD, BlueMatt: ^^
793 2012-10-09 16:57:23 <BlueMatt> ah
794 2012-10-09 16:57:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I define "well before" as I was around before 0.3.24, I was not on Dec 5 ;)
795 2012-10-09 16:58:06 <jgarzik> WARNING: Dec 2010 may be git import date. I have not checked.
796 2012-10-09 16:58:10 <jgarzik> VERSION is the relevant check
797 2012-10-09 16:58:37 <jgarzik> >= 31703
798 2012-10-09 16:58:44 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: ACK on 0.7.1 I went over all these changes and they all look okay to me. Nice improvements everyone.
799 2012-10-09 16:58:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ditto
800 2012-10-09 16:59:07 <BlueMatt> awww, first release I have no commit in in...a long time :(
801 2012-10-09 16:59:21 <BlueMatt> did anyone fix the bip30 stuff?
802 2012-10-09 16:59:25 <jgarzik> I'm not writing the release notes, since I got flamed for inaccuracy last time ;p
803 2012-10-09 16:59:28 <gavinandresen> thanks. I'll put draft release notes in a gist in a few minutes....
804 2012-10-09 17:00:35 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1872 < kinda sad this didn't make it in. I can crash a node without this fix, but at least it's a weird case in a new call.
805 2012-10-09 17:01:09 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
806 2012-10-09 17:01:37 <jgarzik> 0.7.1 should-go-in list:
807 2012-10-09 17:01:43 <jgarzik> minor peers.dat fix, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1916
808 2012-10-09 17:01:58 <jgarzik> remove i2p, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1913
809 2012-10-09 17:02:04 <gmaxwell> (and it's never been hit by a normal user AFAIK)
810 2012-10-09 17:02:54 <jgarzik> that's about it
811 2012-10-09 17:03:07 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
812 2012-10-09 17:03:41 <gmaxwell> I'm indifferent to 1916 for 0.7.1, it's a fine change but I don't think anyone but us are likely to hit it. Likewise for 1913, as its harmless either way.
813 2012-10-09 17:04:03 killerstorm has joined
814 2012-10-09 17:04:24 <gavinandresen> draft release notes: https://gist.github.com/3860009
815 2012-10-09 17:04:26 lggr has joined
816 2012-10-09 17:05:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: is there any discussion of -detachdb, anywhere?
817 2012-10-09 17:05:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I think it would be useful to note why people might want to run -detachdb
818 2012-10-09 17:05:21 <jgarzik> somewhere
819 2012-10-09 17:06:18 <gavinandresen> ... somewhere.... I could add a paragraph explaining what -detachdb does at the top of the release notes
820 2012-10-09 17:06:52 <gmaxwell> woah the ubuntu ppa's have a different bdb version than our static binaries?
821 2012-10-09 17:07:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: sure
822 2012-10-09 17:07:11 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #101: FAILURE in 39 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/101/
823 2012-10-09 17:07:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: they do?
824 2012-10-09 17:07:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so says the release notes!
825 2012-10-09 17:07:47 <gmaxwell> If so that would explain a lot.
826 2012-10-09 17:07:54 <Luke-Jr> :/
827 2012-10-09 17:07:54 <gavinandresen> somebody want to test?
828 2012-10-09 17:08:27 <BlueMatt> heh, jenkins found an actual error this time...
829 2012-10-09 17:08:47 <Luke-Jr> I have an ubuntu netbook here atm
830 2012-10-09 17:08:55 <Luke-Jr> 1 sec
831 2012-10-09 17:09:01 <BlueMatt> (sorry 'bout all the recent false positives, the server is taking >1h to import a block in the block test, making it miss the timestamp so that the tester considers it invalid...really need to move the dnsseed)
832 2012-10-09 17:09:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yeah... should be fixed already
833 2012-10-09 17:09:10 <Luke-Jr> Get:4 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ lucid/main libdb4.8++ 4.8.24-1ubuntu1 [714kB]
834 2012-10-09 17:09:25 <BlueMatt> yes, they do
835 2012-10-09 17:09:31 <BlueMatt> they use 4.8, but its a different version
836 2012-10-09 17:09:51 <gmaxwell> init.cpp:443:17: error: âconst char* pszDataDirâ previously declared here < I think that's fixed in the most recent commit... so while it's right it's also slow. :P
837 2012-10-09 17:09:52 <Luke-Jr> does bdb Z versions not signify "no incompatible changes, just bugfixes"? :/
838 2012-10-09 17:10:10 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell/gavinandresn: ok, so I /really/ need to move the dnsseed...
839 2012-10-09 17:10:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: without detach you really can't count on anything. I absolutely have seen point versions break when detach isn't used.
840 2012-10-09 17:10:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
841 2012-10-09 17:10:39 <Luke-Jr> bleh
842 2012-10-09 17:10:55 toffoo has joined
843 2012-10-09 17:10:58 <BlueMatt> (why does the release static binary on linux not have a different version from the win32 version?
844 2012-10-09 17:11:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the dnsseed is that much of a performance burden?
845 2012-10-09 17:11:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it eats 50% cpu when there are 4 g++ jobs running...
846 2012-10-09 17:11:30 bitcoinbulletin has joined
847 2012-10-09 17:11:35 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: where is your dns seed now? Moving it to a Foundation-paid-for-machine would make a lot of sense....
848 2012-10-09 17:11:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: (and it appears to be in like one or two constant threads, so its something broken that should be easy to fix...)
849 2012-10-09 17:11:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its on the jenkins server, I have some hardware here I can use too though...
850 2012-10-09 17:12:20 <BlueMatt> (and Im planning on writing yet another dnsseed server...)
851 2012-10-09 17:12:42 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I'd rather have the foundation running a DNS seed then hosting matt's, unless matt is eager to dispense with it.
852 2012-10-09 17:12:45 <Luke-Jr> meh, Jenkins could probably use a nicer box from the Foundation too
853 2012-10-09 17:12:51 <gavinandresen> getting some budget for the jenkins server, a dns seed server, a testnet3 long-running node is on my TODO list
854 2012-10-09 17:12:58 <gmaxwell> and indeed jenkins would be an obvious support target.
855 2012-10-09 17:13:18 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: and supporting the bitcoin backbond project (or taking it over)
856 2012-10-09 17:13:23 <gavinandresen> (putting together an overall Foundation budget is on other people's TODO lists)
857 2012-10-09 17:13:26 <BlueMatt> s/d/e/
858 2012-10-09 17:13:29 <gmaxwell> (god knows the foundation running a dnsseed will inspire the conspiracy theorists further)
859 2012-10-09 17:14:06 lggr has joined
860 2012-10-09 17:17:32 Zarutian has joined
861 2012-10-09 17:18:48 JZavala has joined
862 2012-10-09 17:19:58 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
863 2012-10-09 17:21:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: agree
864 2012-10-09 17:22:37 BlackPrapor has joined
865 2012-10-09 17:24:54 lggr has joined
866 2012-10-09 17:27:56 <BlueMatt> hmm...wonderful...sipa: dnsseed is giving me segfaults again (on arm this time)
867 2012-10-09 17:28:09 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: added explanation of -detachdb to https://gist.github.com/3860009
868 2012-10-09 17:28:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: how are your arm things working?
869 2012-10-09 17:28:35 _SlipCoin_ has joined
870 2012-10-09 17:28:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: great, cpu is pretty damn quick, bitcoin runs very happily with only a few %cpu, io is pretty far on the slow side, but disk cache saves it pretty well
871 2012-10-09 17:29:01 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: might mention that versions prior to 0.6 always detached
872 2012-10-09 17:29:11 <Luke-Jr> to answer the "why is this just a problem now?"
873 2012-10-09 17:29:26 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: ACK
874 2012-10-09 17:31:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
875 2012-10-09 17:33:37 <robocoin> Sorry for talking on dev channel :) But is this serious: https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/prov/bitcoin ?
876 2012-10-09 17:33:54 <BlueMatt> heh, who submitted that?
877 2012-10-09 17:34:05 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
878 2012-10-09 17:34:15 <robocoin> Registering party: Dave Thaler <dthalerµsoft.com>
879 2012-10-09 17:34:25 <BlueMatt> f'ing kidding me...
880 2012-10-09 17:34:30 lggr has joined
881 2012-10-09 17:34:41 <robocoin> is big MS getting readdy for Bitcoin payments?
882 2012-10-09 17:35:06 <BlueMatt> na, just someone random who decided they wanted to submit a bitcoin uri officially...
883 2012-10-09 17:35:26 <BlueMatt> would be better if the submitter had registered *@bitcoinfoundation.org to update it though...
884 2012-10-09 17:35:45 <gavinandresen> Speaking of URIs... the URI BIP needs to say what encoding is used for label and message.
885 2012-10-09 17:35:52 <robocoin> ok would you guys write this Dave Thaler an email?
886 2012-10-09 17:36:09 osmosis has joined
887 2012-10-09 17:36:15 <BlueMatt> robocoin: meh, let it sit until someone actually has reason to get it updated ;)
888 2012-10-09 17:36:17 <gavinandresen> e.g. is "Pay+Gavin+Lots+Of+Coin" displayed as "Pay Gavin..."
889 2012-10-09 17:36:27 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ack
890 2012-10-09 17:36:34 <robocoin> ok thx
891 2012-10-09 17:37:21 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
892 2012-10-09 17:38:50 <MC1984> Registering party: Dave Thaler <dthalerµsoft.com>
893 2012-10-09 17:38:50 <MC1984> Scheme creator: Bitcoin URI Scheme
894 2012-10-09 17:38:53 <MC1984> what the FUCK
895 2012-10-09 17:39:03 <kjj_> That isn't a proposal, it is a report of something observed in the wild
896 2012-10-09 17:40:14 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
897 2012-10-09 17:40:22 <TD> the reference to webarch is misleading
898 2012-10-09 17:40:27 <TD> bitcoin uris aren't a part of the web
899 2012-10-09 17:40:32 <TD> it's just a convenient IPC scheme
900 2012-10-09 17:40:54 <Luke-Jr> â¦
901 2012-10-09 17:41:00 <Luke-Jr> they're for use on websites and such
902 2012-10-09 17:42:56 <gavinandresen> bitcoin uri's should follow http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4395.txt , though... (I'm still not a fan of bitcoin: URIs,though)
903 2012-10-09 17:43:06 <BlueMatt> why not?
904 2012-10-09 17:43:27 <kjj_> well, they aren't resources...
905 2012-10-09 17:43:35 <_SlipCoin_> is it likely that bitcoin will impliment proof-of-stake at some point soon?
906 2012-10-09 17:43:52 <kjj_> _SlipCoin_: zero chance, I'd say
907 2012-10-09 17:43:55 <Luke-Jr> _SlipCoin_: no
908 2012-10-09 17:44:02 <_SlipCoin_> O_o
909 2012-10-09 17:44:03 <_SlipCoin_> why not?
910 2012-10-09 17:44:05 <gavinandresen> Yes, they're not resources. I like the notion of "payment request" packaged up into a payment protocol
911 2012-10-09 17:44:09 <BlueMatt> kjj_: meh, the definition of uri has changed over time...more like link anymore...
912 2012-10-09 17:44:17 lggr has joined
913 2012-10-09 17:44:29 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, and a bitcoin: uri should be used to define how to trigger a payment protocol request
914 2012-10-09 17:44:42 <gavinandresen> URI would be "start negotiating payment with FOO" ....
915 2012-10-09 17:44:42 <MC1984> i dont know what proof of stake is because i cant find a tldr
916 2012-10-09 17:44:53 <gavinandresen> ... where FOO is https://somewhere
917 2012-10-09 17:45:17 <Luke-Jr> _SlipCoin_: it's an unproven theory, would break compatibility with all older versions, and is a proposed change to the social contract Bitcoin represents and would require basically unanimous consent of all Bitcoin holders
918 2012-10-09 17:45:19 <kjj_> MC1984: Their chief proponent is good at the TL part
919 2012-10-09 17:45:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you have a better way to trigger that to start from an email/web page, shoot
920 2012-10-09 17:45:30 <gavinandresen> ... in which case the URI is, I think, just https://somewhere/.... and it returns a bitcoin-payment-request MIME type
921 2012-10-09 17:45:56 <kjj_> on the other hand, mailto: isn't a resource either, and does about the same job
922 2012-10-09 17:46:37 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hides the link more and wouldnt be handled as nicely...
923 2012-10-09 17:46:43 killerstorm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
924 2012-10-09 17:46:47 <BlueMatt> s/nicely/neatly
925 2012-10-09 17:46:50 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: it could be
926 2012-10-09 17:47:11 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yeah, I lost the argument the last time around, too....
927 2012-10-09 17:47:13 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
928 2012-10-09 17:47:14 <BlueMatt> afaik browsers wont display that quite the same as simply opening bitcoin and letting it run
929 2012-10-09 17:47:34 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: it's just a matter of registering a MIME type instead of a URI scheme
930 2012-10-09 17:47:38 <Luke-Jr> which might actually be more compatible
931 2012-10-09 17:47:40 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: heh...I agree it makes more sense, it just doesnt work/look as nice in the current system
932 2012-10-09 17:48:22 <gavinandresen> speaking of making URIs work.... I'm going to tag 0.7.1 now. jgarzik : not pulling those little bugfixes, I think they can wait
933 2012-10-09 17:48:26 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: will all browsers not show a download bar, just open bitcoin and handle it right?
934 2012-10-09 17:48:29 <Luke-Jr> the only "problem" I see with it is then we get into the Aliases mess again - we're trusting HTTPS which usually has a higher cost to use
935 2012-10-09 17:48:36 <kjj_> I actually would very much prefer a plain URI that is visible when I hover over the link, rather than a link to a different document
936 2012-10-09 17:48:40 da2ce7_d has joined
937 2012-10-09 17:48:46 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: not sure on the download bar in modern browsers
938 2012-10-09 17:48:46 <BlueMatt> plus that
939 2012-10-09 17:48:48 asa1024z has joined
940 2012-10-09 17:49:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 0.7.1 or 0.7.1rc1?
941 2012-10-09 17:49:11 <gmaxwell> 10:17 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: great, cpu is pretty damn quick, bitcoin runs very happily with only a few %cpu < did you try doing an ultraprune sync to it? and if so how long did it take?
942 2012-10-09 17:49:15 <BlueMatt> anyway, we've had this argument before, a decision was made...unless there is huge reason to change, I see no reason to debate again...
943 2012-10-09 17:49:20 <gavinandresen> 0.7.1rc1 I suppose
944 2012-10-09 17:49:25 <Luke-Jr> IMO too much is changed to go straight to 0.7.1 final
945 2012-10-09 17:49:26 asa1024 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
946 2012-10-09 17:49:26 asa1024z is now known as asa1024
947 2012-10-09 17:49:34 <jgarzik> I would like to see at least one -rc1
948 2012-10-09 17:49:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: havent done ultraprune yet...no
949 2012-10-09 17:50:06 <jgarzik> target Thursday or Friday for 0.7.1, if no problems
950 2012-10-09 17:50:08 <jgarzik> ?
951 2012-10-09 17:50:57 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
952 2012-10-09 17:51:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
953 2012-10-09 17:51:41 <gavinandresen> To git@github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin.git
954 2012-10-09 17:51:41 <gavinandresen> * [new tag] v0.7.1rc1 -> v0.7.1rc1
955 2012-10-09 17:53:32 balrog has joined
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957 2012-10-09 17:56:10 <gmaxwell> _SlipCoin_: in addition to what luke said, so far all proposals I've seen have a form of flaw where stake holders can ~costlessly double-use their stake to mine both the 'honest' chain, and an unbounded number of attack chains. In bitcoin your POW can only be spent on bitcoin or on any one attack, but not on both.
958 2012-10-09 17:56:35 <_SlipCoin_> oh gmaxwell
959 2012-10-09 17:57:01 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure if that issue is fatal, but its significant and greatly reduces the attractiveness of the idea.
960 2012-10-09 17:58:00 <amiller> the main thing that all "proof of stake" proposals have in common is that there is absolutely nothing put at stake in an attack
961 2012-10-09 17:58:10 <gmaxwell> plus there are a large number of additional issues with POS... e.g. key managementâ having to keep your private keys internet connected at all times to mine stake is very ugly.
962 2012-10-09 17:58:34 <gmaxwell> amiller: exactly, thats a more general and clear way I putting what I was pointing to there.
963 2012-10-09 17:59:44 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: mine will be delayed a bit, looks like we changed gitian qt
964 2012-10-09 18:00:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
965 2012-10-09 18:00:31 <gmaxwell> A rational bitcoin miner mines only the honest chainâ he knows his attacks are not going to be successful. A rational POS miner mines the honest chain _and_ every attack that doesn't hurt him (if doing so increases his subsidy income)), or the honest chain _and_ every attack that directly benefits him (if it doesn't depending on how elegible stake is selected).
966 2012-10-09 18:00:38 <maaku> sipa: most recent bitcoin-seeder segfaults if '-o' option is not specified; I assume this is not desired behavior?
967 2012-10-09 18:02:07 BlackPrapor has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
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970 2012-10-09 18:03:57 <amiller> gmaxwell, slightly more to add to that - not only is a successful attack expensive, but an _unsuccessful_ attack attempt is also expensive
971 2012-10-09 18:04:55 lggr has joined
972 2012-10-09 18:05:18 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: 1fcebc1 check tx.CheckTransaction for data-driven tx tests. <-- this looks like it might not be the expected behaviour?
973 2012-10-09 18:05:24 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ^ can you comment?>
974 2012-10-09 18:05:46 pusle has quit ()
975 2012-10-09 18:06:00 <Luke-Jr> oh wait
976 2012-10-09 18:06:06 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt wrote that O.o
977 2012-10-09 18:06:35 <Luke-Jr> somehow missed it being in a pullreq
978 2012-10-09 18:06:39 archevety has joined
979 2012-10-09 18:06:59 vampireb has joined
980 2012-10-09 18:07:42 <_SlipCoin_> gmaxwell: what is proof-of-excellence?
981 2012-10-09 18:08:55 <sipa> maaku: that's certainly noy intended
982 2012-10-09 18:10:04 <Luke-Jr> Thaler sez: "As discussed on the IRI WG list the IANA provisional registry is a better place to track deployed but non-standardized schemes. As such, pretty much all the schemes that were listed on Wikipedia were added to the IANA provisional registry."
983 2012-10-09 18:10:09 <Luke-Jr> FWIW
984 2012-10-09 18:10:11 <maaku> ok expect a pull request; btw maybe i'm dumb but why is the server's hostname specified twice, for '-h' (host) and '-n' (nameserver)?
985 2012-10-09 18:11:06 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
986 2012-10-09 18:11:11 <BlueMatt> maaku: thats been that way for a while
987 2012-10-09 18:11:38 <BlueMatt> maaku: host and nameserver should not be the same thing
988 2012-10-09 18:11:41 <sipa> maaku: somehow the server needs to be able to answer queries that mentions its own IP as ns
989 2012-10-09 18:11:53 <sipa> so you need to both the name of the ns and of the hostname
990 2012-10-09 18:11:59 <maaku> ah ok makes sense
991 2012-10-09 18:12:00 <maaku> thanks
992 2012-10-09 18:12:05 <sipa> the first could presumably be loaded from DNS itself, though
993 2012-10-09 18:12:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: might note that mined transactions show up early in the release notes
994 2012-10-09 18:12:37 lggr has joined
995 2012-10-09 18:12:43 <Luke-Jr> earlier*
996 2012-10-09 18:12:46 freakazoid has joined
997 2012-10-09 18:12:55 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: where is 1fcebc1?
998 2012-10-09 18:12:56 <gavinandresen> 1-confirmation instead of 2? If you're solo mining?
999 2012-10-09 18:13:00 <gavinandresen> meh
1000 2012-10-09 18:13:10 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: master?
1001 2012-10-09 18:13:19 <BlueMatt> which tx in tx_*.json is it?
1002 2012-10-09 18:13:27 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: also for pools that generate payouts, like BitPenny, Eligius, and P2Pool
1003 2012-10-09 18:13:42 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: uh, it's a commit
1004 2012-10-09 18:13:51 <Luke-Jr> git show 1fcebc1
1005 2012-10-09 18:14:08 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: why is that not intended behavior?
1006 2012-10-09 18:15:03 <BlueMatt> (its what the commit says and what the pull did...)
1007 2012-10-09 18:15:22 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I'm not sure, it just looked odd to me and I thought it had been committed without a pullreq by jgarzik somehow, and thought it might need review. Since that isn't the case, maybe nevermind.
1008 2012-10-09 18:16:45 <BlueMatt> (the idea was to allow data-driven test to do test more things...)
1009 2012-10-09 18:16:54 killerstorm has joined
1010 2012-10-09 18:17:39 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ah, that explains my confusion then
1011 2012-10-09 18:18:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1017 2012-10-09 18:26:49 <_SlipCoin_> does anyone know what it is or how it works?
1018 2012-10-09 18:27:23 _SlipCoin_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1030 2012-10-09 18:36:55 * jgarzik returns from lunch
1031 2012-10-09 18:37:01 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: so did I break something? ;p
1032 2012-10-09 18:37:32 <phantomcircuit> ALL THE THINGS
1033 2012-10-09 18:39:13 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1034 2012-10-09 18:40:24 <jgarzik> are belong to us
1035 2012-10-09 18:43:11 lggr has joined
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1052 2012-10-09 18:58:20 Luke-Jr has joined
1053 2012-10-09 18:58:51 nym has joined
1054 2012-10-09 18:59:19 <nym> hey, does anyone here know how to reach bitcoin?
1055 2012-10-09 18:59:20 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1056 2012-10-09 18:59:33 <nym> er... bitfloor
1057 2012-10-09 18:59:46 <nym> i tried their email address, but haven't heard back
1058 2012-10-09 19:00:43 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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1063 2012-10-09 19:09:21 <phantomcircuit> nym, twitter?
1064 2012-10-09 19:09:40 random_cat has joined
1065 2012-10-09 19:12:09 <helo> nym: problems?
1066 2012-10-09 19:12:16 <helo> err... wrong channel
1067 2012-10-09 19:12:18 lggr has joined
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1069 2012-10-09 19:12:50 chmod755 has joined
1070 2012-10-09 19:16:15 <jgarzik> v0.7.1rc1 seems happy here
1071 2012-10-09 19:16:26 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1072 2012-10-09 19:18:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1073 2012-10-09 19:19:12 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1074 2012-10-09 19:21:29 <D34TH> time to git pull
1075 2012-10-09 19:21:31 Belkaar has quit (Changing host)
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1078 2012-10-09 19:22:02 lggr has joined
1079 2012-10-09 19:22:45 <D34TH> "version" : 70100,
1080 2012-10-09 19:22:46 <D34TH> :D
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1095 2012-10-09 19:55:09 <nym> helo: hi
1096 2012-10-09 19:56:46 toffoo has quit ()
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1099 2012-10-09 20:08:05 lggr has joined
1100 2012-10-09 20:08:30 KimLee has joined
1101 2012-10-09 20:08:38 <KimLee> Hi
1102 2012-10-09 20:08:42 <helo> nym: we should probably take it to #bitcoin, as its not dev related
1103 2012-10-09 20:09:25 <KimLee> I was wondering if it was possible to monitor transactions without having a wallet present on the server.
1104 2012-10-09 20:09:42 <KimLee> For security purposes.
1105 2012-10-09 20:09:45 <D34TH> KimLee: try jgarzik's mininode
1106 2012-10-09 20:09:55 <KimLee> Does anyone know how to do so with bitcoind?
1107 2012-10-09 20:11:27 <KimLee> thx
1108 2012-10-09 20:11:29 <gavinandresen> I'm getting an error building deps-win32 : build process is trying to run a cross-compiled wingenminiupnpcstrings compiling libminiupnp
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1114 2012-10-09 20:19:16 <gmaxwell> KimLee: You can make a copy of the wallet, and encrypt it with an impossible key using the integrated wallet encryption, and put a backup of the encrypted wallet online.
1115 2012-10-09 20:19:27 thermoman_ is now known as thermoman
1116 2012-10-09 20:19:39 <KimLee> Wow thanks!
1117 2012-10-09 20:20:04 <KimLee> That's was what I was thinking, I was just wondering if it was safe to run two wallets at once.
1118 2012-10-09 20:20:04 <gmaxwell> But there are complications of running a copy of a wallet, if you don't increase the keypool size they'll go out of sync after 100 transactions/addresses pulled out.
1119 2012-10-09 20:20:26 <gmaxwell> If you only ever spend from one it's safe. (if you spend from both you can make a mess of both of them)
1120 2012-10-09 20:20:43 <gmaxwell> But the copy will become wrong eventually once the keypool is exausted.
1121 2012-10-09 20:20:52 <KimLee> This is great because I've done allot of codding with the bitcoind on the server.
1122 2012-10-09 20:21:14 <KimLee> So I will create an impossible encryption on the server, just to monitor transactions
1123 2012-10-09 20:21:41 <KimLee> And make payouts using my other wallet on the computer.
1124 2012-10-09 20:22:05 MC1984 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1125 2012-10-09 20:23:33 <gmaxwell> KimLee: there is an argument to increase the keypool size, if you go that route you should do that on the original wallet before you make the copy and encrypt it.
1126 2012-10-09 20:23:40 <KimLee> If I generate 10 000 payment addresses before encrypting it on the server, will it be alright.
1127 2012-10-09 20:23:46 <gmaxwell> (keep in mind you can't disable the encryption: only change the key, so be sure to encrypt a copy)
1128 2012-10-09 20:23:47 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1129 2012-10-09 20:23:51 <gmaxwell> KimLee: right.
1130 2012-10-09 20:24:11 <gmaxwell> Assuming you don't send + getnewaddress more than 10,000 times.
1131 2012-10-09 20:24:40 <gmaxwell> (the change created when sending also consumes addresses)
1132 2012-10-09 20:24:49 pusle has quit ()
1133 2012-10-09 20:24:53 <KimLee> ok, I can encrypt the wallet on the server and keep the one on my computer unecrypted correct?
1134 2012-10-09 20:25:19 <gmaxwell> KimLee: I would personally never let the unencrypted wallet touch the server.. it might be left in some unused disk space.
1135 2012-10-09 20:25:49 <KimLee> Smart, yes.
1136 2012-10-09 20:25:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: any ideas? https://gist.github.com/3861142
1137 2012-10-09 20:26:35 <gmaxwell> What I have done is increase the keypool, then backup my wallet on the non-server, then encrypt it, backup the encrypted copy. Then restore the first backup. And assuming everything went fine, destroy the encryption key.
1138 2012-10-09 20:26:42 <gmaxwell> Then copy the encrypted backup to hte server.
1139 2012-10-09 20:27:01 <gavinandresen> Anybody else able to gitian-compile deps-win32 successfully ?
1140 2012-10-09 20:27:02 davout has joined
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1142 2012-10-09 20:28:16 <KimLee> Thanks allot GMaxWell for your help. I've had allot of trouble with this issue.
1143 2012-10-09 20:28:49 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1144 2012-10-09 20:30:26 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its an issue with one of wine, binfmt-support or mingw...
1145 2012-10-09 20:30:32 <BlueMatt> iirc Luke-Jr has seen it?
1146 2012-10-09 20:30:50 <BlueMatt> really, either binfmt-support or mingw
1147 2012-10-09 20:31:30 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1148 2012-10-09 20:31:31 <gavinandresen> ok... binfmt-support is to run windows binaries on linux?
1149 2012-10-09 20:31:38 <BlueMatt> yes
1150 2012-10-09 20:31:44 <BlueMatt> (without calling wine ./...)
1151 2012-10-09 20:32:06 <BlueMatt> as to what to do...well there I have no clue, try sshing and see what options you have?
1152 2012-10-09 20:32:11 <gavinandresen> hmmm. I wonder if I'd get different results under kvm
1153 2012-10-09 20:32:58 <BlueMatt> TD: what is the best way to explicitly kill a connection to a Peer?
1154 2012-10-09 20:33:10 <TD> one managed by a PeerGroup?
1155 2012-10-09 20:33:13 <BlueMatt> sure
1156 2012-10-09 20:33:53 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'll do that after the linux build is done. (lemme remember... add libexec/ to PATH and then run on-target ?)
1157 2012-10-09 20:33:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1158 2012-10-09 20:34:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: right (iirc)
1159 2012-10-09 20:34:22 <BlueMatt> may need on-target -u root to apt-get reinstall binfmt-support
1160 2012-10-09 20:34:24 <TD> hmm interesting. there used to be a close method on peer and the NetworkConnection object. seems that it got removed when we ported to netty
1161 2012-10-09 20:34:33 <TD> the handler may have a way to do it but it's not in the javadocs
1162 2012-10-09 20:34:38 <TD> let me spin up intellij and take a look
1163 2012-10-09 20:35:04 <TD> the javadocs for Peer could use a lot of love
1164 2012-10-09 20:35:52 <BlueMatt> all I see is getting the Peer's channel and killing that directly, but that sounds dangerous (its private for a reason)
1165 2012-10-09 20:37:09 <TD> well the issue is that Peer doesn't really run itself.
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1168 2012-10-09 20:37:31 <TD> the way PeerGroup does it is to close the channel indeed
1169 2012-10-09 20:38:08 <TD> there's no channelFromPeer() method :(
1170 2012-10-09 20:38:29 <BlueMatt> btw, Im hacking together a dnsseed crawler in bitcoinj, just to see how well it will scale to tons of connections, and it shouldn't take longer than an hour or so to build...(in theory)
1171 2012-10-09 20:38:43 <TD> ok
1172 2012-10-09 20:38:48 <TD> if it does then we need better APIs
1173 2012-10-09 20:38:55 <TD> i'm not sure PeerGroup is the way to go there though
1174 2012-10-09 20:39:03 <TD> using Netty directly may be a better idea
1175 2012-10-09 20:39:53 <BlueMatt> well, the goal is to keep build time down, learning how to use netty makes more...
1176 2012-10-09 20:40:18 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1177 2012-10-09 20:40:30 <BlueMatt> but...if it falls over and dies, Ill probably do that
1178 2012-10-09 20:40:32 <TD> if you look at PrintPeers, it does a sort of crawl thing
1179 2012-10-09 20:40:36 <TD> in the examples directory
1180 2012-10-09 20:40:39 <TD> basically you can do this:
1181 2012-10-09 20:40:47 <TD> ListenableFuture<TCPNetworkConnection> future =
1182 2012-10-09 20:40:47 <TD> TCPNetworkConnection.connectTo(params, new InetSocketAddress(addr, params.port), 1000 /* timeout */);
1183 2012-10-09 20:40:59 <TD> Futures.addCallback(future, new FutureCallback<TCPNetworkConnection>() {
1184 2012-10-09 20:40:59 <TD> public void onSuccess(TCPNetworkConnection conn) {}
1185 2012-10-09 20:41:07 <BlueMatt> brb, quiz...
1186 2012-10-09 20:41:08 <TD> public void onFailure(Throwable throwable) {}
1187 2012-10-09 20:41:10 <TD> }
1188 2012-10-09 20:41:34 <TD> of course then you work with direct message passing, but as you don't want to download the block chain or anything that's probably the level you want to work at
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1201 2012-10-09 21:06:37 <BlueMatt> TD: hmm, ok that seems pretty simple...maybe Ill just do that if it blows up
1202 2012-10-09 21:07:05 <TD> by the time onSuccess is called the version handshake is done already
1203 2012-10-09 21:07:19 <TD> so you can just use conn.getVersionMessage to read it
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1205 2012-10-09 21:08:08 <BlueMatt> fair enough
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1207 2012-10-09 21:13:11 <gavinandresen> bah.... lxc-start isn't working for me. I think I know what the problem is, though: /etc/init.d/binfmt-support: 76: cannot create /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/register: Permission denied
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1211 2012-10-09 21:18:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: looks like the problem...I wonder what happens if you run it on an ubuntu machine with binfmt-installed on the host?
1212 2012-10-09 21:19:01 <BlueMatt> (nfc how lxc works though, so...)
1213 2012-10-09 21:19:33 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: good question. I'll try that (I'm building win32-deps on my old KVM machine as a workaround)
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1223 2012-10-09 21:38:16 <TD> BlueMatt: fyi the low level networking API needs a lot of post-netty love. there is a lot to like about netty but simplicity isn't it
1224 2012-10-09 21:38:23 <TD> (no surprise, it's a java framework)
1225 2012-10-09 21:38:55 <TD> BlueMatt: specifically TCPNetworkConnection.writeMessage() should have a .awaitUninterruptably() after it, as all netty operations (even writing) are async
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1227 2012-10-09 21:39:53 <TD> also it's not valid to assume the first message is a version message
1228 2012-10-09 21:39:59 <TD> satoshis code can relay alerts before version nego is complete
1229 2012-10-09 21:40:21 <TD> i just generally need to go in and improve this code, and write an article on how to do simple message passing with and without netty
1230 2012-10-09 21:41:39 <BlueMatt> yea...reading through peergroup is a lot of abstraction that hides away wtf is actually going on...
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1237 2012-10-09 21:48:01 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, what sgornick was saying about bitfloor is that in the event a creditor (someone owed btc by bitfloor) forced bankruptcy usd held by bitfloor for other customers could (im guessing would) be used to partially repay the btc creditors for their loss
1238 2012-10-09 21:48:23 <phantomcircuit> so putting additional funds on bitfloor raises the risk that your funds added after the hack would none the less be taken
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1240 2012-10-09 21:48:38 <phantomcircuit> sgornick, correct me if im wrong
1241 2012-10-09 21:49:19 * midnightmagic sighs.
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1243 2012-10-09 21:50:29 <sgornick> phantomcircuit: Correct. Unsecured funds get pooled. If an existing creditor were to convince a judge that they were owed funds and the judge agreed and gives a judgement, that creditor can go to BitFloor's bank and withdraw. IANAL though.
1244 2012-10-09 21:51:54 <phantomcircuit> sgornick, you might be able to argue for separation of funds before/after but it would be a very costly argument and i believe the odds of winning would be quite low
1245 2012-10-09 21:52:12 da2ce791 is now known as da2ce7
1246 2012-10-09 21:52:17 <TD> BlueMatt: parts of PeerGroup can be simplified a lot
1247 2012-10-09 21:52:21 <TD> by using more parts of netty
1248 2012-10-09 21:52:36 <BlueMatt> well, that and docs...
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1250 2012-10-09 21:53:57 <TD> yeah. the Netty docs are actually quite good.
1251 2012-10-09 21:54:02 <TD> it looks more complicated than it really is
1252 2012-10-09 21:54:18 <TD> a "channel" is basically a connection. one per peer.
1253 2012-10-09 21:55:03 <TD> the channel has a "pipeline" which is just an ordered list of objects called "handlers". data is passed in at the top and is transformed in various ways by the handlers as it flows up and down the pipeline
1254 2012-10-09 21:55:16 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
1255 2012-10-09 21:55:16 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #102: FIXED in 4 hr 47 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/102/
1256 2012-10-09 21:55:52 <TD> the idea is that you have, e.g., a handler that knows how to read framed messages off the wire, another handler that knows how to to turn them into logical objects, another handler that knows how to manage the high level protocol state machine, etc
1257 2012-10-09 21:56:25 <TD> the way we use Netty isn't very good. it's a holdover from the previous design.
1258 2012-10-09 21:57:01 <BlueMatt> mmm, well just one more thing for the todo :)
1259 2012-10-09 21:57:19 <TD> one day we should refactor things to fit better. TCPNetworkConnection doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a post-Netty world as it doesn't actually manage the network connection. what it really does is decode byte streams into objects representing the messages, and also has some version handshake handling gunk in there
1260 2012-10-09 21:57:40 <TD> in fact there's nothing TCP specific about it at all
1261 2012-10-09 21:57:51 <BlueMatt> heh
1262 2012-10-09 21:58:18 <TD> unfortunately there are too many more important things to do first â¦.. sigh.
1263 2012-10-09 21:58:29 <TD> like sleep
1264 2012-10-09 21:59:20 <BlueMatt> there are always more important things to do, but...yea, please sleep
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1266 2012-10-09 22:03:38 <jgarzik> sleep is overrated
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1269 2012-10-09 22:06:58 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: gavinandresen: sorry, deps-win32 works for me; I'm still using ancient pre-LXC gitian tho
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1279 2012-10-09 22:27:34 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'll start a build in half an hour
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1285 2012-10-09 22:34:51 <Luke-Jr> 281bc2046c1ccc856a51fe5d70f676c182d38129752bb938c341df4ed8517384 bitcoin-0.7.1-win32-setup.exe
1286 2012-10-09 22:35:12 <Luke-Jr> pushed
1287 2012-10-09 22:35:16 <maaku> sipa: is bitcoin-seeder under any license?
1288 2012-10-09 22:36:12 <sipa> maaku: good question, actually
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1292 2012-10-09 22:39:25 <sipa> never thought about that, but i guess i'm ok with GPL or BSD
1293 2012-10-09 22:40:17 <maaku> well since it contains parts of bitcoind, how about the same license?
1294 2012-10-09 22:41:39 lggr has joined
1295 2012-10-09 22:42:13 <Luke-Jr> maaku: that'd be MIT, which is basically the same as BSD
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1312 2012-10-09 23:18:33 <yellowhat> is there a practical limit to do a 15of20 multisig with BIP16?
1313 2012-10-09 23:18:52 <sipa> such a transaction would currently not be considered standard
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1315 2012-10-09 23:18:59 <sipa> but it's certainly possible and valid
1316 2012-10-09 23:19:38 <yellowhat> so not standard, what does that mean? is it relayed? mined? block reject if mined?
1317 2012-10-09 23:20:04 <sipa> not relayed or mined by people running the reference client
1318 2012-10-09 23:20:21 <yellowhat> i'm guessing no, no, no. so i would have to mine it myself if i want to include it
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1320 2012-10-09 23:20:37 <Luke-Jr> yellowhat: if you relay it directly to Eligius with a fee, you can probably get it in
1321 2012-10-09 23:20:41 <sipa> not relayed, not mined, but accepted in a block
1322 2012-10-09 23:20:53 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: Is this a bugfix? 93dd68e P2P: Do not request blocks from peers with fewer blocks than us
1323 2012-10-09 23:21:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i wouldn't consider it a bugfix
1324 2012-10-09 23:21:53 <sipa> maaku: which altcoin are you interested in running seeder for?
1325 2012-10-09 23:22:00 <maaku> freicoin
1326 2012-10-09 23:22:05 <yellowhat> thanks for the hint Luke-Jr sounds like a practical solution.
1327 2012-10-09 23:22:06 <sipa> maaku: be aware, i've recently had it lock up
1328 2012-10-09 23:22:11 <maaku> http://www.freicoin.org
1329 2012-10-09 23:22:28 <sipa> i've been planning to rewrite a part of it, but never gotten to doing so
1330 2012-10-09 23:24:35 <maaku> it'll work for now; it supplements the current approach of few hardcoded IP seeds
1331 2012-10-09 23:25:05 <maaku> i'm working on packaging it into an ubuntu PPA as well
1332 2012-10-09 23:25:18 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Perhaps in the release notes, include a link to bitcoin/bitcoin/issues as the canonical place to report issues?
1333 2012-10-09 23:25:33 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: /issues is not mentioned anywhere, that I can see
1334 2012-10-09 23:25:42 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ACK
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1336 2012-10-09 23:26:16 <gavinandresen> Wait... release notes say: Please report bugs using the issue tracker at github:
1337 2012-10-09 23:26:17 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
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1340 2012-10-09 23:27:25 <sipa> jgarzik: why was the sending of mempool reverted?
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1342 2012-10-09 23:27:54 <sipa> ah, the compile error?
1343 2012-10-09 23:28:07 <jgarzik> sipa: no, it compiles just fine. no idea bout that build bot nuttiness.
1344 2012-10-09 23:28:24 <gavinandresen> Uploaded README to https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.1/test/
1345 2012-10-09 23:28:30 <jgarzik> sipa: tried to explain on the revert commit message: it was merged by accident
1346 2012-10-09 23:28:44 <jgarzik> sipa: the pull request did not seem to have collected enough ACKs
1347 2012-10-09 23:28:55 <sipa> ok
1348 2012-10-09 23:28:58 <jgarzik> sipa: and gmaxwell raised a valid point, RE mempool TX expiration
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1350 2012-10-09 23:29:08 <Impaler> hey maaku
1351 2012-10-09 23:29:08 <jgarzik> one that requires $THOUGHT
1352 2012-10-09 23:29:09 <jgarzik> ;p
1353 2012-10-09 23:29:25 <Impaler> finding more freicoin converts?
1354 2012-10-09 23:29:27 <sipa> yes, agree
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1357 2012-10-09 23:31:19 <sipa> i need to rebuild Qt and deps for 0.7.1?
1358 2012-10-09 23:31:51 <sipa> won't be for today then
1359 2012-10-09 23:32:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: just Qt I think?
1360 2012-10-09 23:32:36 <sipa> seems it needs deps5, which i don't have
1361 2012-10-09 23:33:06 <gavinandresen> yes, I've been struggling to compile deps5 for much of today...
1362 2012-10-09 23:33:16 <Luke-Jr> :/
1363 2012-10-09 23:33:22 <sipa> trying to do deps5 now
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1365 2012-10-09 23:33:41 <Luke-Jr> am I the only one who's managed to build 0.7.1rc1 so far then? :x
1366 2012-10-09 23:33:59 <gavinandresen> Any idea why my KVM system would give me random "Connection timed out during banner exchange" errors? (ssh-ing to the target)
1367 2012-10-09 23:34:17 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: VM too slow? Try increasing the timeout
1368 2012-10-09 23:34:29 <gavinandresen> any idea how to increase the ssh timeout?
1369 2012-10-09 23:34:36 <Luke-Jr> also, I think KVM just freezes the VM if the disk is full
1370 2012-10-09 23:34:39 <Luke-Jr> the host disk
1371 2012-10-09 23:34:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: remarkable you did so without knowing that deps changed?
1372 2012-10-09 23:35:00 <tcatm> Did you try ssh -v $host?
1373 2012-10-09 23:35:07 <sipa> or did you already built deps5 for some next-test?
1374 2012-10-09 23:35:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I must have built the deps earlier for some reason? next-test maybe
1375 2012-10-09 23:35:10 Gladamas_ is now known as Gladamas
1376 2012-10-09 23:35:33 <gmaxwell> 16:09 < Luke-Jr> jgarzik: Is this a bugfix? 93dd68e P2P: Do not request blocks from peers with fewer blocks than us
1377 2012-10-09 23:35:49 <gmaxwell> ^ it's bugfixness depends on the density of broken listening nodes
1378 2012-10-09 23:36:19 <gmaxwell> iff the first node you connect to is broken you'll be stuck until the next block.
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