1 2012-10-10 00:00:02 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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   3 2012-10-10 00:00:53 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, confirmed deps-win32.yml is identical in v0.7.1rc1 and next-test
   4 2012-10-10 00:01:01 <Luke-Jr> so it didn't change in the interim
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  10 2012-10-10 00:08:06 <gavinandresen> finally managed to compile bitcoin-deps-0.0.5.zip .... (increasing -oConnectTimeout=5 in the libexec/on-target gitian script seemed to do the trick)
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  12 2012-10-10 00:11:09 <sipa> ah, bah... same bug as last time
  13 2012-10-10 00:11:19 <Luke-Jr> interesting, from the docs I didn't expect ConnectTimeout to work for banner exchange timeout
  14 2012-10-10 00:11:35 <sipa> i forgot to run gitian in linux32 wrapper
  15 2012-10-10 00:12:15 <gavinandresen> sipa: I think devrandom fixed that
  16 2012-10-10 00:12:22 <sipa> oh
  17 2012-10-10 00:12:30 <gavinandresen> ... try git pulling latest gitian-builder
  18 2012-10-10 00:12:32 <sipa> i should update; thought my script did that automatically, though
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  25 2012-10-10 00:20:03 <bcb> are the "comments" and "to" messages in the .7 sendtoaddress written into the transaction or only referenced on my local bitcoind?
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  27 2012-10-10 00:21:36 <gavinandresen> bcb: yes, they are stored in the wallet as part of the transaction information. Not sent anywhere.
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  29 2012-10-10 00:23:54 <bcb> so if I'm referencing my transactions there no one who received that transaction will see the "comments" message?
  30 2012-10-10 00:24:47 <bcb> But they will see the "to" message?
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  32 2012-10-10 00:25:18 <sipa> no, transactions don't contain messages
  33 2012-10-10 00:25:32 <sipa> those are purely a client-side thing
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  35 2012-10-10 00:26:44 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: my build matches yours
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  37 2012-10-10 00:27:05 <sipa> make: ./wingenminiupnpcstrings: Command not found
  38 2012-10-10 00:27:19 * sipa -> sleep 21600
  39 2012-10-10 00:27:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: with regarding to testing & Bitcoin Foundation
  40 2012-10-10 00:27:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: I uploaded my bitcoin-deps-0.0.5.zip to http://www.skypaint.com/bitcoin
  41 2012-10-10 00:28:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: i did see you post a git with the same error message as i got
  42 2012-10-10 00:28:21 <gavinandresen> (and my qt-win32-4.8.2-gitian-r1.zip )
  43 2012-10-10 00:28:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: if someone manages to automate RPC and P2P testing, the Bitcoin Foundation could potentially spring for a round of many-node testing on Amazon EC2
  44 2012-10-10 00:28:28 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: spin up 200 nodes, test, spin down
  45 2012-10-10 00:28:39 <jgarzik> testnet-in-a-cloud
  46 2012-10-10 00:28:59 <sipa> we should market that idea
  47 2012-10-10 00:29:08 <sipa> money-in-the-cloud
  48 2012-10-10 00:29:33 <sipa> certainly feels like a very solid foundation for a currency!
  49 2012-10-10 00:29:35 <jgarzik> cloudcoins
  50 2012-10-10 00:29:50 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: interesting idea.  Defining/detecting success/failure would take some thinking
  51 2012-10-10 00:30:05 <pjorrit> vapor meets where?
  52 2012-10-10 00:30:18 <sipa> pjorrit: lol; in clouds!
  53 2012-10-10 00:30:31 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: as I noted on the m-l, automated many-peer testing is Hard Problem ;p
  54 2012-10-10 00:30:44 <jgarzik> but it would be nice to test, e.g. peer-becomes-stuck
  55 2012-10-10 00:30:51 <jgarzik> (where it switches to another peer)
  56 2012-10-10 00:30:53 <gmaxwell> There are some bits of instrumentation which would make it work much better. Make every hash a valid block, deactivate the peer selection port filtering so you can run a dozen nodes per host.
  57 2012-10-10 00:31:04 <gavinandresen> don't the networking research folks have big test-beds for trying out net networking protocols and such?
  58 2012-10-10 00:31:18 <gavinandresen> NEW networking protocols and such...
  59 2012-10-10 00:31:34 <Luke-Jr> there are new networking protocols? :o
  60 2012-10-10 00:31:48 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes, well. R&E people do for writing papers. Actual real networking protocols get tested in production. :P
  61 2012-10-10 00:32:09 <gavinandresen> just because they jump off a bridge....
  62 2012-10-10 00:32:33 <gmaxwell> (so you get lovely things like 32-bit ASNs in BGP creating transitive failures that could have potentially knocked out the entire internet except they got triggered when only a few big networks had them deployed...)
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  64 2012-10-10 00:33:06 * jgarzik echoes luke-jr, there...
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  66 2012-10-10 00:33:32 <jgarzik> anything beyond UDP/IP or TCP/IP only exists in tiny, focused niches
  67 2012-10-10 00:33:47 <jgarzik> witness the stellar market penetration of SCTP
  68 2012-10-10 00:34:01 <pjorrit> or ipv6 ;p
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  72 2012-10-10 00:34:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well not quite; Linux loves merging the TCP congestion control dicipline of the week, for example. :P
  73 2012-10-10 00:34:13 <jgarzik> any protocols on top of those are implemented by software guys writing python and php, and we know how well those clowns test stuff
  74 2012-10-10 00:34:21 <Luke-Jr> pjorrit: IPv6 is ancient tho
  75 2012-10-10 00:34:22 <gmaxwell> And that stuff gets tested in tools like NS2 and on R&E networks.
  76 2012-10-10 00:34:33 <sipa> no place like ::1
  77 2012-10-10 00:34:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: when Van Jacobsen knocks, people listen ;-)
  78 2012-10-10 00:34:55 <jgarzik> the EF Hutton of the Internet
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  80 2012-10-10 00:35:21 <gmaxwell> But I think the academic testing is actually of fairly low testing value, though it does validate that the changes are worthwhile.
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  82 2012-10-10 00:36:00 <gmaxwell> Live fire tests are good for testing, less good for papers because you don't control it well enough.
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  86 2012-10-10 00:36:56 <gavinandresen> I was just thinking that the academics might have nice network simulation tools to run network-in-a-box on one machine.
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  88 2012-10-10 00:37:17 <gmaxwell> In any case, I'd rank things like getting really good jenkins infrastructure running basic single node and node+harness tests a lot high than cloud tests. :P
  89 2012-10-10 00:37:36 <gavinandresen> yes, I agree-- bang for buck will be higher for other stuff
  90 2012-10-10 00:37:39 * jgarzik wrote a lot of glue and testing code for another DHT, http://www.nicemice.net/amc/research/tangle/
  91 2012-10-10 00:37:46 <jgarzik> that entire thing was simulation
  92 2012-10-10 00:38:00 <jgarzik> just rip out the TCP/UDP stuff, and replace with internal memory bus
  93 2012-10-10 00:38:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm sure they have network simulation tools for something like UDP :)
  94 2012-10-10 00:38:06 <jgarzik> run X threads
  95 2012-10-10 00:38:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: a lot of those tools are basically unit test level. E.g. they don't test host, they test a C++ class that pretends to be one.
  96 2012-10-10 00:38:36 <jgarzik> yep
  97 2012-10-10 00:38:51 <gavinandresen> ok.
  98 2012-10-10 00:39:12 <jgarzik> or like TANGLE, developed entirely in simulator (== academic, closed environment)
  99 2012-10-10 00:39:20 <jgarzik> only to break horribly when met with real life
 100 2012-10-10 00:39:33 <gmaxwell> Fortunately our protocol is very async and we should strive to keep it that way... minimizes the number of network level dynamic dependencies... and the stuff we have that is stateful like the special block pulls for IBD ... are a source of problems for us.
 101 2012-10-10 00:39:45 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: qemu/kvm has some guest-only switch thing (VDE?)
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 104 2012-10-10 00:40:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: the P2P connection has always been minimally stateful... you set certain connection-wide state and behaviors at the beginning of the connection
 105 2012-10-10 00:40:41 <jgarzik> async != state free
 106 2012-10-10 00:41:08 <sipa> agree, it is stateful
 107 2012-10-10 00:41:13 <gavinandresen> I've found a lot of bugs and weirdnesses running 3 or more testnet-in-a-box instances connecting to each other in a particular way all on this machine.  That would be a good place to start.
 108 2012-10-10 00:41:15 <sipa> but it is not message-response based
 109 2012-10-10 00:41:37 <gmaxwell> Well, it's stable but not hugely so. And you don't have a state machine split across nodes.
 110 2012-10-10 00:42:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 111 2012-10-10 00:42:29 <gavinandresen> (aside: I'm uploading 0.7.1rc1 binaries to sourceforge, will sign them and announce as soon as we've got enough gitian matches)
 112 2012-10-10 00:42:39 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: one fun thing you can get with three nodes where one has the chain is that the IBD doesn't happen, and if none mine, then the others never get the blocks.
 113 2012-10-10 00:43:37 <D34TH> i wish i could actually get gitian to work but i give up too easily
 114 2012-10-10 00:43:46 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that's not a weirdness I ever ran across.  I do see a stray orphan block at block 500 during IBD, haven't figured out why yet....
 115 2012-10-10 00:44:00 <gavinandresen> (haven't tried to figure out why yet, either)
 116 2012-10-10 00:44:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I know why
 117 2012-10-10 00:44:19 <gavinandresen> bug or just "the way it works" ?
 118 2012-10-10 00:44:20 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that orphan block is pindexBest
 119 2012-10-10 00:44:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: intentional
 120 2012-10-10 00:44:51 <gavinandresen> ok, good.
 121 2012-10-10 00:44:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: IBD uses a magic 'inv' to signal that the batch of 'block' messages is complete
 122 2012-10-10 00:44:56 <sipa> jgarzik: this is not the same thing as the forced getblocks
 123 2012-10-10 00:45:03 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: it only happens if the dumb nodes get their first connection to each other instead of the smart node.
 124 2012-10-10 00:45:13 <sipa> that never causes orphan blocks, as it does not involve a getdata
 125 2012-10-10 00:45:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that 'inv' is pindexBest
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 127 2012-10-10 00:45:33 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: oh, that's why I never saw it-- I run the 3 nodes in a hub-and-spoke topology
 128 2012-10-10 00:45:38 <jgarzik> sipa: sure it does; the inv sent is pindexBest, which is an orphan until IBD completes
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 130 2012-10-10 00:45:56 <jgarzik> sipa: this is the "magic inv" that triggers IBD continuation
 131 2012-10-10 00:46:01 <jgarzik> sipa: the first time, it is an orphan
 132 2012-10-10 00:46:07 <sipa> oh yes, indeed
 133 2012-10-10 00:46:07 <jgarzik> sipa: all successive times, it is a dup
 134 2012-10-10 00:46:18 <sipa> anyway
 135 2012-10-10 00:46:30 * sipa goes into standby
 136 2012-10-10 00:46:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: fscking ugly hack that I hate, and part of the reason why our IBD is so fragile
 137 2012-10-10 00:46:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: but intentional ;p
 138 2012-10-10 00:47:07 * sipa goes to dream about headers-first sync
 139 2012-10-10 00:47:27 <jgarzik> yes, that would eliminate this ugly hack ;p
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 142 2012-10-10 00:49:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well the hack came about because "OH SHIT NODES ARE GETTING STUCK BECAUSE BIG BLOCKS ARE TRIGGERING THE FLOOD STUFF", in hindsight replacing the IBD process should have become a priority after that.
 143 2012-10-10 00:49:16 <jgarzik> grep for "hashContinue"
 144 2012-10-10 00:51:24 <freakazoid> อ้
 145 2012-10-10 00:51:31 <freakazoid> ตยเเ รีมท มท ตยมอง
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 215 2012-10-10 03:19:58 <jgarzik> heh
 216 2012-10-10 03:20:02 <jgarzik> -reindex is working
 217 2012-10-10 03:20:34 <jgarzik> but does not make the process appreciably faster than -loadblock or IBD from a fast network peer ;p
 218 2012-10-10 03:20:51 * jgarzik kicks BDB in the rear
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 324 2012-10-10 06:46:01 <sipa> jgarzik: should be roughly the same as loadblock, as blk000?.dat flushing is very infrequent during ibd
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 365 2012-10-10 08:04:45 <abrkn> hey, i've been thinking about making my first btc app. i was thinking of making a blackjack game where the player has a small edge if he plays perfectly. has this been done before?
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 368 2012-10-10 08:10:58 <abrkn> all zzz?
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 370 2012-10-10 08:14:01 <OneEyed> I've restarted a block download (it is quite fast here, SSD on a very good connection) using the git version. Why do I get a *lot* of those? ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 112887 000000000000141cd081
 371 2012-10-10 08:15:02 <OneEyed> Does that mean that duplicate blocks are downloaded then discarded? I have so many of them that it is not just a race condition that requested a block that I was currently receiving already, I have more than 100 blocks above this height already
 372 2012-10-10 08:16:38 <OneEyed> (and nothing is downloading while my client seems to be receving those duplicate blocks)
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 375 2012-10-10 08:20:30 <sipa> OneEyed: it happens when a new block is being announcement while you're already doing IBD
 376 2012-10-10 08:21:06 <sipa> it gets requested twice, and sonetimes a block gets downloaded twice
 377 2012-10-10 08:21:18 <sipa> it shouldn't happen frewuently though
 378 2012-10-10 08:21:33 <abrkn> what sort of api do people use to develop btc services now? things like batch transfers to reduce fee, etc would be nice to get pre built
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 380 2012-10-10 08:24:51 <sipa> abrkn: sendmany exists
 381 2012-10-10 08:25:05 <abrkn> ok, so people generally go directly on the bitcoind api?
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 397 2012-10-10 09:05:04 <OneEyed> sipa: it happens *very* frequently
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 399 2012-10-10 09:05:30 <OneEyed> And it is so slow compared to the fast download of yet-unknown blocks that it dominates the time spent downloading the blockchain
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 425 2012-10-10 09:48:49 <UukGoblin> hi, I'm trying to send a transaction with sendmany, but getting error: {"code":-6,"message":"Account has insufficient funds"}
 426 2012-10-10 09:49:10 <UukGoblin> when the account should have the exact sufficient funds available
 427 2012-10-10 09:49:35 <aurigae> transaction fee?
 428 2012-10-10 09:49:44 <UukGoblin> I even tried reducing the sendmany amount by 0.04 BTC to cover any possible transaction fees, but still getting "Account has insufficient funds"
 429 2012-10-10 09:50:05 <aurigae> 0.05?!?
 430 2012-10-10 09:50:08 <UukGoblin> also, getinfo is showing paytxfee as 0.00000000
 431 2012-10-10 09:51:16 <UukGoblin> if it is about a transaction fee, can I get bitcoind to tell me how much it thinks it should be?
 432 2012-10-10 09:51:29 <UukGoblin> I'd really like to avoid any fees whatsoever, as I'm mining myself
 433 2012-10-10 09:51:45 <UukGoblin> I'm happy to wait until I find the next block
 434 2012-10-10 09:51:50 <aurigae> As i know its about a treshhold the coinz have to be in your wallet
 435 2012-10-10 09:52:11 <aurigae> otherwise you pay the 0.05 fee
 436 2012-10-10 09:52:20 <UukGoblin> it's 0.05 now? :-O
 437 2012-10-10 09:52:30 <aurigae> as i know, maybe im lazy
 438 2012-10-10 09:52:39 <UukGoblin> it used to be 0.0005 last time I checked
 439 2012-10-10 09:52:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 440 2012-10-10 09:53:12 <aurigae> just got up, as sayd, maybe im lazy xD, its def something with 05 , not 04
 441 2012-10-10 09:53:23 <kjj_> are any of your outputs very small?
 442 2012-10-10 09:54:08 <aurigae> As of 10 June 2012, minimum transaction fees on the original Bitcoin client are:   Accept a transaction for inclusion in a block: 0.0005 BTC  Relay a transaction to other Bitcoin hosts: 0.0001 BTC  A transaction can be sent without fees if both of these conditions are met:   It is smaller than 10 (SI) kilobytes (10.000 bytes).  All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
 443 2012-10-10 09:54:11 <aurigae> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 444 2012-10-10 09:55:42 <UukGoblin> kjj_, no
 445 2012-10-10 09:55:47 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 446 2012-10-10 09:56:04 <UukGoblin> kjj_, I'm trying a sendmany of 2x 50.47256191
 447 2012-10-10 09:56:05 lggr has joined
 448 2012-10-10 09:56:14 <UukGoblin> kjj_, my account balance is shown as 100.94512382
 449 2012-10-10 09:56:26 <UukGoblin> and I never had such problems before the upgrade
 450 2012-10-10 09:58:48 <UukGoblin> also tried sending 2x 50.45, which also gave me insufficient funds error
 451 2012-10-10 09:59:03 <kjj_> you are solo mining, you said?
 452 2012-10-10 09:59:08 <UukGoblin> p2pool mining
 453 2012-10-10 09:59:26 <kjj_> oh.  heh, you probably have hundreds or thousands of small inputs then
 454 2012-10-10 09:59:51 Eslbaer has joined
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 456 2012-10-10 10:00:54 <kjj_> you can use listunspent to get an idea of what is in your wallet
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 461 2012-10-10 10:10:30 <Joric> Is it possible to speed up AES using GPU? People asking about recovering their wallet.dat passwords.
 462 2012-10-10 10:10:56 <_dr> i'd say using a cpu is faster than a gpu
 463 2012-10-10 10:11:24 <_dr> if it has the aes-ni instruction set, that is
 464 2012-10-10 10:11:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 465 2012-10-10 10:12:09 <Joric> who even proposed to use 25k+ aes rounds? very unpractical
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 467 2012-10-10 10:12:58 <Joric> jk i know it was written by matt
 468 2012-10-10 10:12:59 <sipa> Joric: if anything, try bruteforcing the password, not the 256-bit AES key
 469 2012-10-10 10:13:13 <kjj_> _dr: even if the CPU has support for AES, a GPU that is good at mining has several hundred cores
 470 2012-10-10 10:13:47 <sipa> even with 100000s iterations, that's most likely orders of magnitudes faster than trying to spend the 2^255 attempts to attack AES with a random key
 471 2012-10-10 10:13:59 <_dr> kjj_: we'd have to do the math to be absoluteley sure
 472 2012-10-10 10:14:23 <_dr> kjj_: but using an asic (which new cpus have) for the stuff might still be faster
 473 2012-10-10 10:14:23 lggr has joined
 474 2012-10-10 10:16:27 <kjj_> Looks like the hardware support gives about 8x speedup.  If the OpenCL implementation is within an order of magnitude of non-hardware supported speed, the GPU will still win
 475 2012-10-10 10:16:32 <UukGoblin> kjj_, hundreds, possibly
 476 2012-10-10 10:16:44 <Joric> so you're telling AES is not GPU friendly? i honestly didn't look
 477 2012-10-10 10:17:29 <UukGoblin> kjj_, 73, in particular
 478 2012-10-10 10:17:43 <UukGoblin> can I get an idea of what the expected tx fee should be?
 479 2012-10-10 10:18:01 <UukGoblin> why would I get insufficient funds if I have paytxfee set to 0?
 480 2012-10-10 10:18:42 Hasimir_ has joined
 481 2012-10-10 10:19:18 <pjorrit> you have insufficient funds available for spending?
 482 2012-10-10 10:19:24 <kjj_> UukGoblin: you are probably over the 10k cap
 483 2012-10-10 10:20:02 <UukGoblin> pjorrit, I only spend what I have, I'm not american ;-)
 484 2012-10-10 10:20:23 <sipa> imho, for parallel attacks, a GPU will be faster than specialized CPU hardware instructions
 485 2012-10-10 10:20:31 <sipa> but you shouldn't be attacking the AES part
 486 2012-10-10 10:20:44 <UukGoblin> kjj_, so can I (a) get an idea of what sort of a transaction fee would be needed and (2) can I set the transaction to 0 fee and make sure that it's included in a block that I mine?
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 489 2012-10-10 10:20:56 <Joric> lol sorry it uses sha512, not aes lol sorry
 490 2012-10-10 10:21:18 <Joric> sha512 can be gpu accelerated thats for sure
 491 2012-10-10 10:21:44 <kjj_> UukGoblin: 1) not really, and 2) not really.  you can do it with the raw transaction API
 492 2012-10-10 10:21:48 <sipa> it does require 64-bit integer arithmetic, which GPU's aren't great at
 493 2012-10-10 10:21:56 <UukGoblin> kjj_, and (3) can I send this as multiple smaller transactions to avoid the 10k limit?
 494 2012-10-10 10:22:13 <sipa> UukGoblin: with the raw transaction api you can do anything
 495 2012-10-10 10:22:17 <UukGoblin> raw transaction API! now you're talking
 496 2012-10-10 10:22:19 <kjj_> UukGoblin: 3) yes.  try doing two different transactions
 497 2012-10-10 10:23:10 <kjj_> UukGoblin: please, please, please figure out how to use the API on testnet.  I'd hate for you to have a 100 BTC "learning experience" on the real network
 498 2012-10-10 10:23:21 <UukGoblin> hurr ;-P
 499 2012-10-10 10:23:29 lggr has joined
 500 2012-10-10 10:23:48 <UukGoblin> I guess I'll just keep lowering the amounts
 501 2012-10-10 10:24:45 <UukGoblin> I went down to 50 and still getting insufficient funds
 502 2012-10-10 10:25:03 <UukGoblin> does it mean the transaction fee would be bigger than 0.94 BTC?
 503 2012-10-10 10:25:43 <kjj_> are you using accounts?
 504 2012-10-10 10:26:29 <UukGoblin> accounts? I don't think I am, as I don't know what you mean
 505 2012-10-10 10:27:41 <kjj_> which account are you specifying for the sendmany to come from?
 506 2012-10-10 10:27:46 Backburn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 507 2012-10-10 10:27:52 <UukGoblin> kjj_, ''
 508 2012-10-10 10:28:03 <kjj_> doublec:  bitcoind listaccounts
 509 2012-10-10 10:28:15 <kjj_> make sure that all of your funds are in ""
 510 2012-10-10 10:28:47 <kjj_> bah.  stupid username expansion.
 511 2012-10-10 10:28:56 <UukGoblin> ah. It seems about half of them is in '' and the other half (not precisely half) is in 'p2pool'
 512 2012-10-10 10:29:22 Hasimir_ is now known as Hasimir
 513 2012-10-10 10:29:32 <kjj_> try the move command to get them all into the same account, and then try again
 514 2012-10-10 10:29:38 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 515 2012-10-10 10:30:24 <UukGoblin> will that broadcast a transaction, or just issue an in-wallet move?
 516 2012-10-10 10:30:45 <kjj_> in-wallet only.  accounts don't really exist, they are just numbers stored locally
 517 2012-10-10 10:31:37 <kjj_> move just decreases one number and increases the other
 518 2012-10-10 10:32:00 <UukGoblin> okay...
 519 2012-10-10 10:32:11 <UukGoblin>     "" : 105.77509126,
 520 2012-10-10 10:32:15 <UukGoblin>     "p2pool" : 0.00000000,
 521 2012-10-10 10:32:19 <UukGoblin>     "test1" : -0.00000001
 522 2012-10-10 10:32:28 <UukGoblin> there's a few other accounts that show 0.00000000
 523 2012-10-10 10:32:39 <UukGoblin> however when running getinfo, I get:
 524 2012-10-10 10:32:39 <UukGoblin>     "balance" : 100.94512382,
 525 2012-10-10 10:32:53 <kjj_> I still think your first sendmany will fail because you are over 10k
 526 2012-10-10 10:33:17 <UukGoblin> wallet backed up... hope it's not too late
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 528 2012-10-10 10:33:44 <kjj_> you either have some negative accounts, or you have unconfirmed p2pool rewards
 529 2012-10-10 10:33:49 <UukGoblin> kjj_, correct, a smaller sendmany now worked
 530 2012-10-10 10:33:58 <UukGoblin> ah, uncofirmed pool rewards would make sense
 531 2012-10-10 10:34:07 <UukGoblin> this 'test1' was some test I did a while ago...
 532 2012-10-10 10:34:14 <UukGoblin> and it's still showing a negative amount
 533 2012-10-10 10:34:27 <kjj_> if you do listtransactions, you should see a few immatures
 534 2012-10-10 10:35:50 <sipa> UukGoblin: getinfo's result is probably the most accurate value that reflects how much you can spend now
 535 2012-10-10 10:36:08 <sipa> UukGoblin: the sum of all accounts should be equal, but for recently generated coins, the semantics may differ a bit
 536 2012-10-10 10:36:22 <UukGoblin> kjj_, correct, 4 immatures totalling 4.82996743, it all adds up
 537 2012-10-10 10:36:37 <UukGoblin> still weird that I have -1e-8 on one account, though
 538 2012-10-10 10:36:53 <UukGoblin> (and my txn ended up having 0.007 BTC as fee :-( )
 539 2012-10-10 10:37:02 <kjj_> just move a satoshi into "" if it bothers you
 540 2012-10-10 10:37:20 <UukGoblin> right
 541 2012-10-10 10:37:43 <kjj_> er, from "" rather
 542 2012-10-10 10:37:58 <UukGoblin> (what the hell, let the next miner be happy)
 543 2012-10-10 10:38:13 <UukGoblin> right, maaany thanks for your help on this matter :-)
 544 2012-10-10 10:38:44 <UukGoblin> I'll have to check out this Raw API later - does it allow me to include arbitrary (not-enough-fee) transactions into my memory pool?
 545 2012-10-10 10:39:14 <kjj_> yes
 546 2012-10-10 10:39:23 <UukGoblin> cool
 547 2012-10-10 10:40:12 <kjj_> it also allows you to shoot yourself in the foot.  be careful
 548 2012-10-10 10:40:33 <UukGoblin> I can imagine
 549 2012-10-10 10:40:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 550 2012-10-10 10:40:37 <UukGoblin> raw powah
 551 2012-10-10 10:42:07 Hasimir has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 552 2012-10-10 10:42:32 <sipa> in particular, if you include inputs worth 100 BTC, and outputs only worth 1 BTC, you will create a transaction with 99 BTC fee :)
 553 2012-10-10 10:42:51 <UukGoblin> hahah :-)
 554 2012-10-10 10:43:15 <UukGoblin> I'm sure pool operators would love that
 555 2012-10-10 10:43:20 <kjj_> heh.  you laugh, but we think that a recent block with 100 BTC in fees might have been caused by API accidents
 556 2012-10-10 10:43:30 <UukGoblin> OH IT HAPPENED
 557 2012-10-10 10:43:32 <sipa> yes
 558 2012-10-10 10:43:33 <UukGoblin> lulz
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 560 2012-10-10 10:43:46 <sipa> ozcoin miners were very happy about a triple-payout block
 561 2012-10-10 10:44:08 <UukGoblin> at least it went to the miners - some pools reserve the right to take the txn fees
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 564 2012-10-10 10:46:36 <UukGoblin> yaay, can now spend multisigs with that raw api
 565 2012-10-10 10:46:54 <UukGoblin> I've been away for a while, happy to finally see awesome changes making their way into mainstream
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 567 2012-10-10 10:48:34 <UukGoblin> still can't find a call to accept a txn to my memory pool
 568 2012-10-10 10:49:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 569 2012-10-10 10:49:35 <sipa> UukGoblin: sendrawtransaction
 570 2012-10-10 10:50:19 <kjj_> it will get broadcast, but if you make it obnoxious enough, none of your peers will accept or relay it
 571 2012-10-10 10:50:30 <UukGoblin> right
 572 2012-10-10 10:50:37 <UukGoblin> but my node will remember it and include it
 573 2012-10-10 10:50:45 <UukGoblin> can I also do it for someone else's transaction?
 574 2012-10-10 10:51:08 Hasimir has joined
 575 2012-10-10 10:51:31 <UukGoblin> I guess there's no reason it shouldn't work
 576 2012-10-10 10:51:33 <UukGoblin> fun stuff
 577 2012-10-10 10:51:37 <kjj_> hmm.  I need to look at the mining code.  I assume that it ignores all other selection criteria when looking at transactions that include your own keys
 578 2012-10-10 10:51:59 <UukGoblin> I'll have to review the options for writing a peer-to-peer poker client now :-)
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 652 2012-10-10 12:50:36 <Evilmax> hi: please give me some btc for phoning?
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 681 2012-10-10 13:31:06 <drizztbsd> Evilmax: "phoning"?
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 697 2012-10-10 14:02:02 <MC1984> http://www.zdnet.com/the-do-not-track-standard-has-crossed-into-crazy-territory-7000005502/
 698 2012-10-10 14:02:07 <MC1984> horrific
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 710 2012-10-10 14:24:07 <JyZyXEL> how do you create a genesis block?
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 723 2012-10-10 14:44:00 <asa1024> you become the Creator of the block chain
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 725 2012-10-10 14:46:58 <edcba> JyZyXEL: you fork bitcoin
 726 2012-10-10 14:47:35 <JyZyXEL> already done
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 728 2012-10-10 14:48:32 <JyZyXEL> im trying to figure out the procedure for making the block now
 729 2012-10-10 14:48:52 <edcba> ok
 730 2012-10-10 14:48:57 <edcba> it's easy
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 732 2012-10-10 14:49:04 * gmaxwell cues Luke-Jr 
 733 2012-10-10 14:49:16 <edcba> you just create a new block ?
 734 2012-10-10 14:49:38 <edcba> with a very low difficulty
 735 2012-10-10 14:49:58 <JyZyXEL> whats the easiest way to do that?
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 737 2012-10-10 14:50:27 <JyZyXEL> im sure the bitcoind can do that with correct parameters in the config file?
 738 2012-10-10 14:51:06 <Luke-Jr> JyZyXEL: making a new scamcoin?
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 740 2012-10-10 14:51:29 <JyZyXEL> no, just a chain for testing
 741 2012-10-10 14:51:38 <kjj_> you need to make it by hand
 742 2012-10-10 14:51:42 <edcba> btw how the timekoin was working ?
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 746 2012-10-10 14:52:14 <JyZyXEL> kjj_: there is no script or anything to help me with it?
 747 2012-10-10 14:52:15 <edcba> never understood how it could work since you can supposedly create as much identities as you want
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 749 2012-10-10 14:52:34 <JyZyXEL> i think bitcoind has some code to help with it
 750 2012-10-10 14:52:40 <kjj_> JyZyXEL: it was only ever done once.  Satoshi might have a script to do it, but I don't think he's published it
 751 2012-10-10 14:52:40 <edcba> JyZyXEL you can use bitcoin client to output what you wants :)
 752 2012-10-10 14:52:53 <Luke-Jr> JyZyXEL: that's what -testnet is for
 753 2012-10-10 14:53:09 <JyZyXEL> Luke-Jr: thats what im making :p
 754 2012-10-10 14:54:11 <JyZyXEL> edcba: yeah i did a grep -ri "genesis" on the source
 755 2012-10-10 14:54:28 <Luke-Jr> JyZyXEL: it's already made!
 756 2012-10-10 14:54:39 <JyZyXEL> Luke-Jr: not for the scamcoin im working on :D
 757 2012-10-10 14:54:55 <JyZyXEL> we don't have a testnet blockchain :p
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 763 2012-10-10 14:56:12 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: then get support from the applicable scamcoin developers.
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 797 2012-10-10 15:56:01 <phantomcircuit> Recently I've seen people questioning the hosting situation for bitcoin.org
 798 2012-10-10 15:56:16 <phantomcircuit> I have to say that I agree that hosting it on github is probably not the best choice
 799 2012-10-10 15:56:33 <phantomcircuit> (although it isn't a bad choice)
 800 2012-10-10 15:56:58 <Luke-Jr> it would probably benefit from international mirrors
 801 2012-10-10 15:57:26 <Luke-Jr> but I'm not sure it's that high priority
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 809 2012-10-10 16:08:25 <gmaxwell> The github hosting is stinky but it works. What we should probably have it seperated hosting that pulls from github only when there are relevan signed tags.
 810 2012-10-10 16:08:50 <gmaxwell> This would let us have SSL, — worthless as it is.
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 835 2012-10-10 16:51:24 <jgarzik> sipa: yep
 836 2012-10-10 16:51:43 <jgarzik> sipa: -reindex is slow because it is doing a lot of reading from the same disk as it is constantly writing
 837 2012-10-10 16:51:59 <jgarzik> sipa: nothing new or intrinsically special to -reindex
 838 2012-10-10 16:52:07 <jgarzik> looks like it works :)
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 849 2012-10-10 17:08:34 <sipa> yes, judging from the code, no reason why it shouldn't
 850 2012-10-10 17:09:38 <sipa> i'll try to add consistency checking to ultraprune this evening
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 864 2012-10-10 17:23:27 <jgarzik> sipa: does any existing -checklevel verify _everything_, including signatures?
 865 2012-10-10 17:23:42 <jgarzik> ISTR you posted (on the forums?) that sigs were not verified at any checklevel
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 868 2012-10-10 17:24:30 <sipa> jgarzik: no
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 871 2012-10-10 17:24:57 <sipa> signatures are never rechecked
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 873 2012-10-10 17:28:17 <sipa> and iirc there was a reason while apart from script vrrification, sometimes other consistency checks can't exactly match everything verified during connection
 874 2012-10-10 17:29:48 <sipa> oh yes, a transactuin that was overwritten after being fully spent
 875 2012-10-10 17:30:02 <sipa> the original spending info is lost for those
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 881 2012-10-10 17:32:51 <jgarzik> sipa: I think verifying that 99% is better than 0%
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 883 2012-10-10 17:34:30 <sipa> of course
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 896 2012-10-10 17:48:22 <gavinandresen> Looking for more gitian signatures on the 0.7.1rc1 release....  if you have time, please build
 897 2012-10-10 17:48:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: how did you manage to fix the problem with building miniupnp?
 898 2012-10-10 17:48:57 <gavinandresen> I built using my kvm machine
 899 2012-10-10 17:49:15 <gavinandresen> (built the deps-0.0.5 dependency)
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 901 2012-10-10 17:49:17 <sipa> bah
 902 2012-10-10 17:49:41 <gavinandresen> agreed.
 903 2012-10-10 17:49:57 <gavinandresen> I know what the problem is, but don't know how to fix it
 904 2012-10-10 17:50:12 <sipa> what is the problem?
 905 2012-10-10 17:50:49 <gavinandresen> installing... ummm... that package that lets you run windows binaries emulated....
 906 2012-10-10 17:51:04 <sipa> wine?
 907 2012-10-10 17:51:06 <gavinandresen> ... it's getting a permission denied when writing to some system directory under lxc
 908 2012-10-10 17:51:11 <sipa> ah
 909 2012-10-10 17:51:21 <sipa> ok, back to kvm it is
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 911 2012-10-10 17:53:36 <sipa> devrandom: ^ ?
 912 2012-10-10 17:54:44 <gavinandresen> what is that package name... wine depends on it...
 913 2012-10-10 17:55:19 <sipa> binfmt-support ?
 914 2012-10-10 17:55:41 <gavinandresen> that's the one!
 915 2012-10-10 17:56:00 <gavinandresen> installing it in the VM you'll see the error in the gitian var/install.log
 916 2012-10-10 17:56:11 <devrandom> sipa: what's up?
 917 2012-10-10 17:56:24 <sipa> devrandom: apparently binfmt-support fails to install under lxc
 918 2012-10-10 17:56:37 <devrandom> uh oh
 919 2012-10-10 17:57:33 <gavinandresen> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/binfmt-support/+bug/917660
 920 2012-10-10 17:58:14 <gavinandresen> ... looks like a similar issue
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 923 2012-10-10 18:00:26 <devrandom> gavinandresen: should we start using precise as the build env, or will that cause other issues?
 924 2012-10-10 18:01:10 <sipa> devrandom: for windows builds, moving to a more recent build env only has advantages, imho
 925 2012-10-10 18:01:31 <sipa> for ubuntu builds, i'm afraid that something built under precise will not run on pre-precise
 926 2012-10-10 18:01:43 <devrandom> good point
 927 2012-10-10 18:02:02 <gavinandresen> right, linux builds we want to use old and crusty for max compatibility.  Windows builds we can use whatever works.
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 930 2012-10-10 18:02:33 <sipa> for example, -flto would be nice to reduce the size of binaries, but is currently not possible because of the ancient gcc 4.2 used in mingw under lucid
 931 2012-10-10 18:02:35 <devrandom> perhaps install binfmt-support without post-install triggers for now
 932 2012-10-10 18:02:47 <sipa> devrandom: will it work, then?
 933 2012-10-10 18:03:09 <devrandom> I'll look into this more later today - I have a meeting to go to
 934 2012-10-10 18:03:14 <gavinandresen> devrandom: thanks!
 935 2012-10-10 18:03:18 <sipa> and in leveldb, i had to backport part of the windows code to run on pre-g++0x
 936 2012-10-10 18:03:32 <sipa> which wouldn't be necessary if we could build the windows one on a more recent gcc
 937 2012-10-10 18:03:42 <sipa> eh, c++0x
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 943 2012-10-10 18:17:03 <sipa> anyone having problems fetching from github?
 944 2012-10-10 18:17:12 <sipa> oh nevermind, it just succeeded
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 949 2012-10-10 18:21:46 <edcba> Laszlo Hanyecz, a Florida programmer, conducted what bitcoiners think of as the first real-world bitcoin transaction, paying 10,000 bitcoins to get two pizzas delivered from Papa John’s.
 950 2012-10-10 18:21:49 <edcba> muhahaha
 951 2012-10-10 18:22:14 <edcba> those pizzas aren't cheaps :)
 952 2012-10-10 18:23:29 <sipa> even back then, they weren't cheap
 953 2012-10-10 18:23:41 <sipa> but he had to spend his mining income on something :p
 954 2012-10-10 18:24:32 <edcba> i wonder if receiver has still the coins...
 955 2012-10-10 18:25:01 <edcba> so much fortune lying on hard disks of bored ppl somewhere :)
 956 2012-10-10 18:25:27 <midnightmagic> are these instructions still accurate for HEAD gitian build? https://gist.github.com/806265
 957 2012-10-10 18:26:08 <edcba> you mean we can build bitcoin with 1 command now ?
 958 2012-10-10 18:26:21 <sipa> midnightmagic: wx isn't used anymore since 0.5
 959 2012-10-10 18:26:35 <sipa> so i guess not :)
 960 2012-10-10 18:26:51 <sipa> edcba: in normal environments, with dependencies installed: yes
 961 2012-10-10 18:26:56 <sipa> gitian is a lot harder though
 962 2012-10-10 18:27:03 <edcba> with dependancies installed...
 963 2012-10-10 18:27:07 <edcba> :)
 964 2012-10-10 18:27:20 <edcba> bdb is still there i guess
 965 2012-10-10 18:27:34 <sipa> yes, for now
 966 2012-10-10 18:27:38 <midnightmagic> sipa: Aside from that, is there an instruction set somewhere for gitian builds which is followed, or does each dev figure it out on his own and cackel manically?
 967 2012-10-10 18:27:55 <edcba> can't we switch to something more mainstream ?
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 969 2012-10-10 18:28:24 <sipa> edcba: if you know a mainstream framework for multi-platform deterministic building... please :)
 970 2012-10-10 18:28:40 <edcba> no i meant for the db
 971 2012-10-10 18:28:48 <sipa> yes, we'll switch to leveldb in 0.8
 972 2012-10-10 18:29:02 <midnightmagic> https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder <- readme.md maybe.. hrm
 973 2012-10-10 18:29:19 <midnightmagic> :-)
 974 2012-10-10 18:30:20 <midnightmagic> just fyi, this page here: https://gitian.org/  links to the wxwidgets based gitian instructions for building bitcoin.
 975 2012-10-10 18:31:20 <edcba> ok the sample is bitcoin...
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 978 2012-10-10 18:32:46 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok, i386 vm built, now amd64 one...
 979 2012-10-10 18:34:02 <midnightmagic> edcba: No, it's the wrong sample, with incorrect instructions. So, the main gitian webpage is out-of-date.
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 986 2012-10-10 18:39:41 <edcba> https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/prov/bitcoin
 987 2012-10-10 18:39:58 <edcba> now we only need our bitcoin currency character in unicode :)
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 991 2012-10-10 18:46:34 <sipa> where can i find Qt 4.8.2 ?
 992 2012-10-10 18:47:19 <sipa> on the website there is 4.8.3, and in the FTP archive there is 4.8.0
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 996 2012-10-10 18:49:13 <sipa> ok, took the link for 4.8.3 and replaced the 3 by a 2...
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1000 2012-10-10 18:53:54 <forrestv> what's the maximum size transaction the satoshi client will generate?
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1002 2012-10-10 18:56:45 <gmaxwell> 100k.
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1004 2012-10-10 18:57:08 <gmaxwell> There is some test in the transaction logic that gives up if it gets a result bigger than that.
1005 2012-10-10 18:57:24 <devrandom> gavinandresen: confirmed that binfmt-support works with a precise guest
1006 2012-10-10 18:57:32 <jgarzik> the max size we accept is MAX_BLOCK_SIZE, though, right?
1007 2012-10-10 18:57:53 * jgarzik wonders if testnet contains a 1MB, 2-tx block :)
1008 2012-10-10 18:58:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I generated some really big ones, but I'm not sure if I hit that limit.
1009 2012-10-10 18:58:46 <gmaxwell> forrestv:
1010 2012-10-10 18:58:46 <gmaxwell>                 if (nBytes >= MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN/5)
1011 2012-10-10 18:58:46 <gmaxwell>                     return false;
1012 2012-10-10 18:59:02 <gmaxwell> main.h:static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE/2;
1013 2012-10-10 18:59:03 <forrestv> gmaxwell, thanks
1014 2012-10-10 18:59:09 <gavinandresen> devrandom: ok.  So if we wanted to switch to compiling on precise, that means everybody would need three make_base_vm's (lucid 32- and 64-bit, and a precise for doing the windows build) ?
1015 2012-10-10 18:59:13 <gmaxwell> main.h:static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIZE = 1000000;
1016 2012-10-10 18:59:39 <devrandom> gavinandresen: yes, that is correct
1017 2012-10-10 18:59:40 <gmaxwell> forrestv: Might I ask why you're asking?
1018 2012-10-10 18:59:46 <devrandom> I didn't test a full build yet
1019 2012-10-10 18:59:57 <gmaxwell> forrestv: I suspect but haven't tested, that you an create a larger one with the raw txn API.
1020 2012-10-10 19:00:32 <sipa> max level size for a transaction is 1M iirc
1021 2012-10-10 19:00:37 <sipa> *legal
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1024 2012-10-10 19:01:08 <forrestv> gmaxwell, limits for transactions forwarded ahead of time over the p2pool network
1025 2012-10-10 19:02:22 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: what's the commitid you gyus are building to? 0a4e67afadd738151ae1cd4468b5422a21a0eabf ?
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1027 2012-10-10 19:03:19 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: tag v0.7.1rc1
1028 2012-10-10 19:03:34 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: git fetch --tags  if you don't have it
1029 2012-10-10 19:04:01 <nym> Bitfloor's WF account is down
1030 2012-10-10 19:05:35 <sipa> WF?
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1033 2012-10-10 19:09:46 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: okie dokie.
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1040 2012-10-10 19:15:57 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok, Qt built
1041 2012-10-10 19:15:59 <sipa> now deps...
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1046 2012-10-10 19:26:22 <nym> sipa: wells fargo
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1048 2012-10-10 19:27:17 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: everything seems to work fine on an older gitian, fyi
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1062 2012-10-10 19:48:05 <gmaxwell> hah. I had a bitcoind hit a peak logging rate of 2316 lines in a second.
1063 2012-10-10 19:48:17 <gmaxwell>    2316 10/04/12 17:26:51
1064 2012-10-10 19:48:45 <chmod755> lol
1065 2012-10-10 19:49:21 <gmaxwell> 7 other seconds with over 2k messages per second in that one's node.
1066 2012-10-10 19:49:22 <gmaxwell> er log
1067 2012-10-10 19:49:40 <chmod755> gmaxwell, what are you trying to find in your logs?
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1069 2012-10-10 19:50:04 <gmaxwell> I'm not trying to find anything.
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1074 2012-10-10 20:03:03 <jgarzik> colored coins python script, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117630.0 -> http://pastebin.com/h103Yj3N (bitpaint.py)
1075 2012-10-10 20:03:18 <jgarzik> uses RPC interface
1076 2012-10-10 20:03:45 <jgarzik> raw transaction API, specifically
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1078 2012-10-10 20:05:53 <jgarzik> sigh.  by hesitating on pybond, everyone will wind up using stuff less optimally implemented, harder to track stuff
1079 2012-10-10 20:06:19 <nym> gmaxwell: do you run any sites?
1080 2012-10-10 20:08:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: welp ultraprune is gonna break that one pretty good
1081 2012-10-10 20:08:06 <gmaxwell> nym: hm? Why?
1082 2012-10-10 20:09:06 lggr has joined
1083 2012-10-10 20:14:28 <nym> gmaxwell: i'm trying to network :)
1084 2012-10-10 20:14:40 <gmaxwell> Ah. Okay. No.
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1086 2012-10-10 20:15:12 * nym just checked out your github
1087 2012-10-10 20:15:33 <gmaxwell> Oh I only use github for staging to bitcoin.
1088 2012-10-10 20:15:59 <nym> ah
1089 2012-10-10 20:16:05 <nym> so you're a contributor?
1090 2012-10-10 20:16:33 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1091 2012-10-10 20:16:40 <nym> ++!
1092 2012-10-10 20:16:43 <Diablo-D3> hes a developer.
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1094 2012-10-10 20:17:05 Tycale__ is now known as Tycale
1095 2012-10-10 20:17:15 <nym> gmaxwell: I really like this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Agents
1096 2012-10-10 20:17:58 <MC1984> no ones ever gonna do anything with that agents thing
1097 2012-10-10 20:18:11 <gmaxwell> I think TD (Mike) wrote most of that page, though at least I inspired some of it.
1098 2012-10-10 20:18:22 <MC1984> which is a shame cos im reading a book where humanity is usurped by autonomous corporate entities
1099 2012-10-10 20:18:23 <Diablo-D3> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/10/wing-commanders-chris-roberts-returns-to-gaming-with-ambitious-mmo/
1100 2012-10-10 20:18:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: people will, but it has to become easy enough first.
1101 2012-10-10 20:18:26 <Diablo-D3> do want all over the place
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1103 2012-10-10 20:18:35 <gmaxwell> MC1984: Daemon?
1104 2012-10-10 20:18:50 <MC1984> accelerando
1105 2012-10-10 20:19:58 <gmaxwell> hm. I am almost certant that I've read that, but I don't recall it at all.
1106 2012-10-10 20:20:39 <MC1984> manfred manx, his queen of a jovian moon daughter and the cat
1107 2012-10-10 20:20:40 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you should read Daemon and Freedom by Daniel Suarez if you think the agents idea is fun. (Jeff recommended it to me after the storj post and I enjoyed them a lot)
1108 2012-10-10 20:20:42 <jgarzik> Thinking about agents inevitable boils down to, for me, provable execution by untrusted parties
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1110 2012-10-10 20:20:58 <jgarzik> *inevitably
1111 2012-10-10 20:21:02 <MC1984> gmaxwell gotcha
1112 2012-10-10 20:21:25 <jgarzik> People will surely know they are a really part of an autonomous entity
1113 2012-10-10 20:21:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Yea, you can't have that.  But whats really provable in this world?  Making failure tracable and having recourse is often more pratical.
1114 2012-10-10 20:21:43 <jgarzik> And that makes the autonomous entity not so autonomous
1115 2012-10-10 20:22:02 <gmaxwell> No man is an island.
1116 2012-10-10 20:22:13 <gmaxwell> Why should the robots be any different? :P
1117 2012-10-10 20:22:15 * jgarzik was trying to think along the lines of a bytecode engine that would execute signed code
1118 2012-10-10 20:22:31 <MC1984> thats why they will organise themselves into a hive mind
1119 2012-10-10 20:22:33 <amiller> nym, i strongly dislike the agents page, i've pitched a fit about it before (see the talk page)
1120 2012-10-10 20:22:33 <jgarzik> do that in parallel, and at least you prove the inputs and outputs
1121 2012-10-10 20:23:03 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1122 2012-10-10 20:23:19 <gmaxwell> amiller: I think you assumed a much stronger reading of it than almost anyone else would. Even as someone familar with the same science as you in that space I didn't take that reading. :P
1123 2012-10-10 20:23:50 <gmaxwell> Though I do agree with your concern that people are too quick to believe things like usefully provable/tamperproof computation is possible.
1124 2012-10-10 20:24:05 <amiller> nym if you have a moment i'm going to interview you in a pm and see what you think the page is talking about
1125 2012-10-10 20:24:13 <nym> k
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1128 2012-10-10 20:26:04 * jgarzik races off to grab ProvablyFairSociety.{com,org,net} and Daemon2016.com
1129 2012-10-10 20:26:11 <jgarzik> j/k
1130 2012-10-10 20:26:35 <MC1984> join the venus project
1131 2012-10-10 20:26:38 <MC1984> or something
1132 2012-10-10 20:26:59 <gmaxwell> amiller: neat idea.
1133 2012-10-10 20:27:30 <MC1984> how long could an agent hide itself?
1134 2012-10-10 20:27:44 <MC1984> moving around between vps and such
1135 2012-10-10 20:27:51 <jgarzik> MC1984: well, an agent cannot start without being bootstrapped by humans
1136 2012-10-10 20:28:04 <MC1984> ofc
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1138 2012-10-10 20:28:06 <jgarzik> MC1984: you are limited by the automated APIs, and mechanical turks
1139 2012-10-10 20:28:42 <jgarzik> MC1984: patterns of behavior quickly become obvious:  the same text posting to the same set of forums, soliciting bids for hosting API plugins
1140 2012-10-10 20:29:14 <jgarzik> even varying each of those variables, a pattern of resource consumption is inevitable
1141 2012-10-10 20:29:26 <gmaxwell> I proposed one solution to that, which is that the human who bootstraps an agent must basically provide a bond for 100% of the startup costs. The agent will pay back with interest if successful, with the idea of making cheating unprofitable.
1142 2012-10-10 20:29:40 <MC1984> what about polymorphism
1143 2012-10-10 20:30:01 <MC1984> learning as it goes
1144 2012-10-10 20:30:09 <jgarzik> or simple bot bug fixing
1145 2012-10-10 20:30:24 <jgarzik> who sees the source code?  who approves changes?  who compiles the changes?
1146 2012-10-10 20:32:38 <jgarzik> that's why I continue to flirt with bytecode engine approaches.  the DNA, the brain is the bytecode stored in the entity's memory.  the only thing a host needs to run is the base bytecode engine.
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1148 2012-10-10 20:32:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, my solution to that was to follow the biological model. You don't fix bots. They have children which are potentially fixed. The code is fixed at birth with only limited flexiblity.
1149 2012-10-10 20:33:16 <MC1984> isnt that what it says on the agents page
1150 2012-10-10 20:33:27 <MC1984> genetic algorithms
1151 2012-10-10 20:33:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: Thats nice, but I didn't write that.
1152 2012-10-10 20:33:46 <gmaxwell> 'genetic algorithms' ?
1153 2012-10-10 20:33:55 <gmaxwell> Utterly useless for this in my opinion.
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1155 2012-10-10 20:34:29 <gmaxwell> By biological model I simply mean that the primary code is fixed for an orginism (as it is in all higher order life on earth)
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1157 2012-10-10 20:34:41 <jgarzik> given that computing resources are potentially long lived, you either want some concept of self-healing (upgrading) or parasitic (start child, commit suicide)
1158 2012-10-10 20:34:47 <MC1984> oh
1159 2012-10-10 20:35:17 <jgarzik> e.g. VPS and hosting accounts will live longer than processes
1160 2012-10-10 20:35:27 <jgarzik> and will exist longer than parents _should_, in times of upgrade
1161 2012-10-10 20:36:04 <jgarzik> I like the model of each process as a biological cell
1162 2012-10-10 20:36:06 <MC1984> is this agents thing actualy describing sort of weak AI then or am i confused
1163 2012-10-10 20:36:09 <jgarzik> those pop in and out of existence rapidly
1164 2012-10-10 20:36:20 <jgarzik> cells have DNA (bytecode corpus)
1165 2012-10-10 20:36:57 <jgarzik> MC1984: basically correct.  I think the term is "narrow AI" -- something more scripted and dumb, not thinking or reasoning
1166 2012-10-10 20:37:14 <jgarzik> like AI players in computer games
1167 2012-10-10 20:37:29 <gmaxwell> Sufficiently advanced software is indistinguishable from intelligent. :P
1168 2012-10-10 20:37:35 <MC1984> but if they can self select good traits
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1172 2012-10-10 20:38:39 <MC1984> whats the chances of packing an agent off into the internet with 10btc in its pocket and coming back in a few decades to find skynet
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1174 2012-10-10 20:38:56 <gmaxwell> MC1984: with the kind of stuff we're talking about, about zero.
1175 2012-10-10 20:39:14 <MC1984> aw
1176 2012-10-10 20:39:30 <jgarzik> MC1984: helpfully, the US military is already building skynet anyway ;p
1177 2012-10-10 20:39:38 <MC1984> but it would be a great leap in AI research anyway right
1178 2012-10-10 20:40:03 <gmaxwell> It's not bad news. Non-human intelligence will very likely be very very unfriendly from our perspective. It would be bad if that could happen in an uncontrolled way.
1179 2012-10-10 20:40:08 <MC1984> ive always thought one way or another AIs would build themselves rather than us constructing them
1180 2012-10-10 20:40:17 <MC1984> we just provide time and processing
1181 2012-10-10 20:40:27 <edcba> maybe we will construct them
1182 2012-10-10 20:40:31 <edcba> ...by mistake :)
1183 2012-10-10 20:40:49 <jgarzik> Daniel Suarez' latest book _Kill Decision_ is about swarms of drones, built based upon biological models of behavior.  One example used is weaver ants, individually unintelligent, but with very aggressive emergent/hive behaviors.
1184 2012-10-10 20:40:53 <MC1984> if you take the universe as a simulation, then thats how we came about anyway
1185 2012-10-10 20:40:58 <MC1984> even if you dont take it as a sim
1186 2012-10-10 20:41:15 <jgarzik> The book posits weaver ant behavior in a colony of military drones-gone-wild
1187 2012-10-10 20:41:19 <gmaxwell> edcba: optimization processes are prone to unexpected outcomes. Dangerous stuff if you let them have real world results.
1188 2012-10-10 20:41:23 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1189 2012-10-10 20:41:54 <jgarzik> HFT has plenty of unintended real world outcomes
1190 2012-10-10 20:42:20 <MC1984> hmm hive mind
1191 2012-10-10 20:42:28 <jgarzik> and with the Financialization of Everything being quite inevitable thanks to general march of technology, fun implications
1192 2012-10-10 20:42:57 <edcba> financialization is optimisation
1193 2012-10-10 20:43:03 <gmaxwell> edcba: an example I like to give is— for example, one time I was working on an antenna design and I made a parameterized model— you give it the dimensions it simulates it, returns the performance.  Then I stuck that in an optimizer and it went along tweaking the parameters looking for improvements...
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1195 2012-10-10 20:43:48 <gmaxwell> edcba: later I returned and was quite excited to see it had made enormous improvements .. only to find out that it had managed to make the lengths of some parts _negative_. "oops"
1196 2012-10-10 20:44:13 * edcba goto buy some negative length antennas
1197 2012-10-10 20:44:14 <MC1984> cool subspace antenna
1198 2012-10-10 20:44:41 <gmaxwell> almost every single _simple_ optimization problem I've worked with has exposed holes in the objective function, I can't imagine how hard it would be to get the objective functions of an AI system right so that it doesn't decide that is isn't best to kill everyone.
1199 2012-10-10 20:44:54 <edcba> haha
1200 2012-10-10 20:45:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1201 2012-10-10 20:45:33 <edcba> remind me of some guy who thought the future of programming would be to evolve programs through AI...
1202 2012-10-10 20:45:52 <MC1984> gmaxwell we cant even make it so that the original AI (us) doesnt decide thats a good course of action
1203 2012-10-10 20:45:53 <gmaxwell> "Maximize average happiness Oh Multivac"  {multivac kills everyone except one guy, and keeps him constantly on morphine}
1204 2012-10-10 20:46:15 <Eliel_> gmaxwell: could even be that the more you try to prevent that decision, the harder it becomes :D
1205 2012-10-10 20:46:17 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's worse, not only will computers do evil, they'll do insane evil.
1206 2012-10-10 20:46:21 <edcba> but that guy must be really happy !
1207 2012-10-10 20:46:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: erm
1208 2012-10-10 20:46:30 <Diablo-D3> Ive seen that joke somewhere
1209 2012-10-10 20:46:39 <Diablo-D3> but it was god, not multivac
1210 2012-10-10 20:46:55 <jgarzik> or to take a scene from _Daemon_, a directive to "end spam" results in the machine gunning of all spammers ;p
1211 2012-10-10 20:47:03 <Diablo-D3> man
1212 2012-10-10 20:47:04 <MC1984> gmaxwell reminds me of a historical account of a billion years of galactic evolution
1213 2012-10-10 20:47:07 <Diablo-D3> you know what we should be doing?
1214 2012-10-10 20:47:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: some insanity is a good idea.
1215 2012-10-10 20:47:11 <MC1984> pdf thing i read
1216 2012-10-10 20:47:17 <edcba> jgarzik: may work finally !
1217 2012-10-10 20:47:20 <jgarzik> hehehe
1218 2012-10-10 20:47:31 <Diablo-D3> trying to advance real AI using distributed computing
1219 2012-10-10 20:47:40 lggr has joined
1220 2012-10-10 20:47:40 <MC1984> some species uploaded and proceeded to do things like blockade the stars of other species start systems and such
1221 2012-10-10 20:47:42 <MC1984> nice stuff
1222 2012-10-10 20:47:42 <Diablo-D3> an open source Daemon
1223 2012-10-10 20:47:54 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: would be fun :)
1224 2012-10-10 20:48:03 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: as long as it's not written in Java
1225 2012-10-10 20:48:05 <Diablo-D3> yes, especially when I sudo a sandwich
1226 2012-10-10 20:48:23 * jgarzik has been looking at Parrot VM
1227 2012-10-10 20:48:31 <Diablo-D3> man
1228 2012-10-10 20:48:33 <Diablo-D3> if Im going to do a vm
1229 2012-10-10 20:48:33 <jgarzik> though really, a purpose-built VM would probably be needed
1230 2012-10-10 20:48:35 <Diablo-D3> Ill write my own
1231 2012-10-10 20:48:48 <jgarzik> built from the ground up to sign/verify code
1232 2012-10-10 20:48:53 <Diablo-D3> vms try too hard to actually be machines instead of dumb assemblers
1233 2012-10-10 20:49:42 <gmaxwell> MC1984: A biological example I've seen is the expirements in group selection.  Artifically select flour beetle populations that maintain small size... Do they evolve to restrain their birthrates? No. They evolve to become canibals that eat offspring of others of their kind.
1234 2012-10-10 20:51:25 <jgarzik> Definition:  virtual machine cell...  a simple virtual machine, simple key/value store limited to X size, and basic crypted network I/O ability.  plus a list of parent's public keys.
1235 2012-10-10 20:52:01 <jgarzik> maybe a single local fs file, as sandboxed disk storage
1236 2012-10-10 20:54:03 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1237 2012-10-10 20:55:07 <jgarzik> "cell death" == process ends, due to bug, remote command or system event
1238 2012-10-10 20:55:37 <jgarzik> "cell birth" == process starts, associates itself with a group of cells, and downloads initial instructions
1239 2012-10-10 20:56:36 <jgarzik> the program code could remain static during cell lifetime, if that is added protection
1240 2012-10-10 20:57:30 lggr has joined
1241 2012-10-10 20:58:27 <MC1984> what i want to know is if strong AI is possible where are they
1242 2012-10-10 20:58:52 <jgarzik> MC1984: a strong AI would be indistinguishable from a human, wouldn't it?
1243 2012-10-10 20:59:03 <MC1984> where is the vanguard invasion fleet of von neumann machines eating jupiter, why arnt the stars going out as dyson shells go around them
1244 2012-10-10 20:59:25 <jgarzik> how do you know Ben Bernanke isn't _already_ our robotic overlord?
1245 2012-10-10 20:59:35 <MC1984> fffffffffffffffffffffff
1246 2012-10-10 21:00:24 eroot has joined
1247 2012-10-10 21:00:30 <MC1984> scarier thought, perhaps we really are the first evolution of intelligent life within a very wide radius since the big bang
1248 2012-10-10 21:00:40 <MC1984> and thus we really do only have each other for comapny
1249 2012-10-10 21:00:58 <MC1984> the sun is only in the second gen of stellar formation right?
1250 2012-10-10 21:02:04 <MC1984> so if there is to be a self replicator phage on this universe, it has to be us that kicks it off lol
1251 2012-10-10 21:02:39 <MC1984> i wouldnt put it past our species at all
1252 2012-10-10 21:02:42 gfinn has joined
1253 2012-10-10 21:02:53 <MC1984> the general misanthropy you get after reading lots of sci fi
1254 2012-10-10 21:03:24 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1255 2012-10-10 21:03:38 <jgarzik> or maybe a skynet would decide that humanity all needs large penii, recreational pharma and additional reality TV shows
1256 2012-10-10 21:04:26 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: in the uniform space of all ideas there are a great many really bad ones than mildly bad ones! :P
1257 2012-10-10 21:05:03 <gmaxwell> so your AI need to be selected out of a very specific subset of all possible AI's in order to have objectives that are merely mildly bad. :P
1258 2012-10-10 21:05:27 <MC1984> funny because it seems reality TV has gotten far enough where you can watch a pretty young blonde drink a quart of donkey cum for money on TV
1259 2012-10-10 21:05:34 <MC1984> perhaps that is skynets doing
1260 2012-10-10 21:05:37 <gmaxwell> E.g. there is an infinite number of possible AI's who only high level goal is to convert the whole universe into X  (for any possible X).
1261 2012-10-10 21:05:56 <gmaxwell> s/who/whos/
1262 2012-10-10 21:06:50 CluckCreek has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1263 2012-10-10 21:07:06 PhantomSpark has joined
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1265 2012-10-10 21:07:17 <edcba> i doubt it's infinite
1266 2012-10-10 21:07:30 <edcba> it epends on how much information is inside our universe :)
1267 2012-10-10 21:07:49 <MC1984> i beleive theres an estimate for that somewhere
1268 2012-10-10 21:08:17 <gmaxwell> "Good news, we've found alien 'life'. Bad-news, it's only interested in converting all our mass into flemdars." "Whats a flemdar?" "oh it's some kind of psychic sex toy for a species that died out a billion years ago (they were all converted into flemdars by an over powered factory that sent these ships)"
1269 2012-10-10 21:09:54 <sipa> hmm, i wonder... given a block's added txouts... how many blocks do you need after it to be +- certain one of them gets spent?
1270 2012-10-10 21:09:59 <sipa> i suppose hardly more than 1
1271 2012-10-10 21:10:05 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@pool-71-251-16-25.nycmny.fios.verizon.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1272 2012-10-10 21:10:17 <edcba> ?
1273 2012-10-10 21:10:41 * edcba doesn't understand the question
1274 2012-10-10 21:11:10 <sipa> because of how i intend to make ultraprune's consistency check work: roll back N blocks, and check that the undo data exactly matches the utxo set state
1275 2012-10-10 21:11:21 <Diablo-D3> [04:57:01] <gmaxwell> "Good news, we've found alien 'life'. Bad-news, it's only interested in converting all our mass into flemdars." "Whats a flemdar?" "oh it's some kind of psychic sex toy for a species that died out a billion years ago (they were all converted into flemdars by an over powered factory that sent these ships)"
1276 2012-10-10 21:11:32 <Diablo-D3> but I already get women off.
1277 2012-10-10 21:12:01 <sipa> edcba: i want to know: does every block spend outputs from the previous block
1278 2012-10-10 21:12:24 <sipa> probably not
1279 2012-10-10 21:12:25 <sipa> if not
1280 2012-10-10 21:12:27 xIsalty_ is now known as xIsalty
1281 2012-10-10 21:12:37 <sipa> does every block spend outputs from one of the two previous blocks
1282 2012-10-10 21:13:01 <edcba> i don't understand what you mean by 'spent' then
1283 2012-10-10 21:13:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1284 2012-10-10 21:13:07 <sipa> redeemed
1285 2012-10-10 21:13:08 <sipa> consumed
1286 2012-10-10 21:13:12 <sipa> used as input
1287 2012-10-10 21:13:23 da2ce723 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1288 2012-10-10 21:13:42 <edcba> i don't see why they would need to be spent in any given time frame ?
1289 2012-10-10 21:14:36 <sipa> at startup, i intend to make ultraprune (my rewrite of the validation engine) verify its state, by trying to undo/disconnect a few of the last blocks
1290 2012-10-10 21:15:09 eroot1 has joined
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1292 2012-10-10 21:15:17 <sipa> if every block always spends outputs from the previous block, then any inconsistency caused by a partial write will always result in a failure during that disconnection
1293 2012-10-10 21:15:44 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1294 2012-10-10 21:15:57 <MC1984> http://www.theconservativefoundation.co.uk/index.php?page=who&win=board&item=9
1295 2012-10-10 21:15:58 <MC1984> lol
1296 2012-10-10 21:16:02 <MC1984> leejin
1297 2012-10-10 21:16:33 <edcba> sorry i don't understand your assumption of block spending outputs
1298 2012-10-10 21:16:44 <sipa> it's not an assumption
1299 2012-10-10 21:16:48 <sipa> it's a question
1300 2012-10-10 21:16:49 lggr has joined
1301 2012-10-10 21:17:08 <sipa> ok, i'll try to explain
1302 2012-10-10 21:17:15 <sipa> assume there are 3 blocks, A-B-C
1303 2012-10-10 21:17:23 <sipa> somewhere in the chain
1304 2012-10-10 21:17:28 <edcba> a block validates some tx, receivers then may or may not spent them ?
1305 2012-10-10 21:17:44 <sipa> you know how a bitcoin transaction works?
1306 2012-10-10 21:17:53 <edcba> yeah i think i remember :)
1307 2012-10-10 21:18:09 <edcba> some inputs some outputs some scripts
1308 2012-10-10 21:18:20 <sipa> and in particular, what does an input contain?
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1310 2012-10-10 21:18:55 yellowhat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1311 2012-10-10 21:19:29 <edcba> ok you mean total(inputs) = total(outputs) ?
1312 2012-10-10 21:19:43 <sipa> that's not true
1313 2012-10-10 21:19:57 <sipa> total(inputs) >= total(outputs)
1314 2012-10-10 21:20:04 <sipa> the difference becomes fee
1315 2012-10-10 21:20:21 <edcba> hmm
1316 2012-10-10 21:20:24 <sipa> but that's not what i mean; what exactly, in the bytes of a transaction, does an input consist of?
1317 2012-10-10 21:20:37 <sipa> you can guess :)
1318 2012-10-10 21:20:53 <edcba> should be the input of script but i don't remmeber looking at that
1319 2012-10-10 21:21:12 <sipa> it does contain a script yes, but that's not the important part
1320 2012-10-10 21:21:28 <sipa> it contains the hash of a previous transaction, and a numer referring to one of its outputs
1321 2012-10-10 21:21:39 <sipa> *number
1322 2012-10-10 21:21:45 <edcba> ok
1323 2012-10-10 21:22:00 <sipa> so one way to look at it is that a transaction has some outputs, which i'll call "coins" now
1324 2012-10-10 21:22:05 <edcba> 'address' of previous output
1325 2012-10-10 21:22:11 <sipa> NO!
1326 2012-10-10 21:22:15 <sipa> *not* an address
1327 2012-10-10 21:22:26 <edcba> 'pointer' of previous output
1328 2012-10-10 21:22:30 <edcba> reference :)
1329 2012-10-10 21:22:34 <sipa> right, it's some kind of address
1330 2012-10-10 21:22:43 <sipa> just wanted to stress that it's certainly not a bitcoin address
1331 2012-10-10 21:23:08 <edcba> yeah i tried to avoid a tech term and failed at bitcoin term :)
1332 2012-10-10 21:23:15 <sipa> each coin gets assigned to an output script (which typically corresponds to a bitcoin address, but not necessarily)
1333 2012-10-10 21:23:55 <sipa> and transaction consume coins from previous transactions (by proving ownership via a crypto signature), melt them together, split them again, and re-assign the outputs
1334 2012-10-10 21:24:00 <edcba> but if C points to output A.1 it won't necessarily consumes A.2
1335 2012-10-10 21:24:05 <sipa> exactly
1336 2012-10-10 21:24:11 <sipa> but it always consumes an entire output
1337 2012-10-10 21:24:23 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1338 2012-10-10 21:24:24 <sipa> not an entire transaction, but always one or more integral outputs of it
1339 2012-10-10 21:24:34 <sipa> (or outputs from multiple separate transactions)
1340 2012-10-10 21:24:37 <edcba> yes since we want it to recreate outputs
1341 2012-10-10 21:24:43 <edcba> (even if same address)
1342 2012-10-10 21:24:46 <sipa> right
1343 2012-10-10 21:24:59 <sipa> the point is that this way, bitcoin internally doesn't need to keep track of balances
1344 2012-10-10 21:25:21 <sipa> it only needs to check that no output is spent twice, and that the value of inputs always is enough to cover the outputs
1345 2012-10-10 21:26:27 lggr has joined
1346 2012-10-10 21:26:57 <sipa> so in practice what you need to verify whether a transaction is valid, is just a list of unspent transaction outputs
1347 2012-10-10 21:27:13 <sipa> (and a bit more, but that's the most important piece of information)
1348 2012-10-10 21:27:49 <sipa> a block, being a list of transaction, can be seen as a "patch" to this set of unspent outputs - its transactions consume some outputs, and produce some new ones
1349 2012-10-10 21:27:52 <sipa> ok?
1350 2012-10-10 21:28:17 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1351 2012-10-10 21:28:47 <edcba> hmm yes
1352 2012-10-10 21:29:16 osmosis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1353 2012-10-10 21:29:34 <sipa> the current bitcoin validation engine doesn't work this way
1354 2012-10-10 21:29:53 <sipa> it keeps a concatenation of all blocks around, and an index with pointers into it for every transaction
1355 2012-10-10 21:30:04 <sipa> and for each of those transactions, where they get spent
1356 2012-10-10 21:30:09 yellowhat has joined
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1358 2012-10-10 21:30:29 <sipa> the problem with this is that it needs access to the entire history + that entire index the whole time
1359 2012-10-10 21:31:14 m00p has joined
1360 2012-10-10 21:31:26 <edcba> i remember there was mention of pruning the tx tree somewhere in paper and maybe in code too (TODO ? :)
1361 2012-10-10 21:31:32 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1362 2012-10-10 21:31:58 <sipa> yes, but that's not exactly what i'm talking about
1363 2012-10-10 21:32:36 * edcba downloads source code...
1364 2012-10-10 21:33:13 <edcba> 13MB .zip ?
1365 2012-10-10 21:33:21 <edcba> wtf happened :)
1366 2012-10-10 21:33:29 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1367 2012-10-10 21:34:05 <gmaxwell> edcba: the zip has binaries.
1368 2012-10-10 21:34:20 <gmaxwell> nice fat static ones that include boost and such.
1369 2012-10-10 21:34:29 <gmaxwell> if you just want the source you should use git.
1370 2012-10-10 21:34:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: the replay for the consistency check is a nice idea.
1371 2012-10-10 21:35:19 paraipan has joined
1372 2012-10-10 21:35:49 <sipa> it won't detect random corruptions, but undoing a few thousand transactions' worth of blocks (in memory only) should detect any partial write or recent data corruption at least
1373 2012-10-10 21:36:17 maaku has joined
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1376 2012-10-10 21:36:27 <sipa> not that i expect that to do match... leveldb's data blocks are checksummed, and logs consist of atomically-written blocks
1377 2012-10-10 21:36:51 <sipa> but still, application-level consistency checks will certainly make people feel better
1378 2012-10-10 21:37:33 CodesInChaos has joined
1379 2012-10-10 21:41:07 <amiller> sipa, i want to ask you about the goals and security model for logdb
1380 2012-10-10 21:41:25 <amiller> my main question is why use a hash chain rather than error correction, since for storing wallet keys i think you care more about recoverability rather than integrity
1381 2012-10-10 21:42:14 devrandom has joined
1382 2012-10-10 21:42:49 <sipa> i don't think it's the job of the application to provide error recovery at that level
1383 2012-10-10 21:43:00 osmosis has joined
1384 2012-10-10 21:43:14 <sipa> hard drives very rarely have random corruptions, since they do checksumming and error correction by themself already these days
1385 2012-10-10 21:43:32 <sipa> if there's a problem with a hard drive, you want to have a backup
1386 2012-10-10 21:43:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1387 2012-10-10 21:44:19 <sipa> and the logdb model makes sure you always have a consistent wallet, but potentially an older state
1388 2012-10-10 21:44:43 <sipa> combined with a key pool or deterministic keys, that shouldn't cause monetary loss
1389 2012-10-10 21:44:47 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1390 2012-10-10 21:45:23 <amiller> what's an inconsistent wallet?
1391 2012-10-10 21:45:36 <sipa> a missing transaction, for example
1392 2012-10-10 21:45:46 <sipa> of an incorrect privkey-pubkey pair
1393 2012-10-10 21:45:57 Eslbaer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1394 2012-10-10 21:46:05 <sipa> or who-knows-what arbitrary data
1395 2012-10-10 21:46:14 Eslbaer has joined
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1398 2012-10-10 21:48:55 <amiller> hm, i hadn't thought about the role of wallet integrity in terms of deterministic keys so i should probably think about that more, i bet that's a good reason to have the hash chain
1399 2012-10-10 21:49:25 <sipa> i suppose having error-correction on top of that is not a bad idea
1400 2012-10-10 21:49:47 <sipa> but i consider a wallet to be valuable, more than just its private keys
1401 2012-10-10 21:49:59 <edcba> ok so you want to modify accept/GetOutputFor/FetchInputs ?
1402 2012-10-10 21:50:03 <amiller> is there a reason why application level integrity would be appropriate but application level error correction is not?
1403 2012-10-10 21:50:25 <sipa> it's just say that integrity has higher priority
1404 2012-10-10 21:50:38 <sipa> needing to rescan a recent part of the chain isn't that bad
1405 2012-10-10 21:51:11 <sipa> in case of corruption, you know nothing anymore and if you assume the worst, you'll need to try extracting keys and rescan the chain
1406 2012-10-10 21:51:24 <sipa> i want to avoid that at all costs, as it means losing transaction metaday
1407 2012-10-10 21:51:46 <amiller> maybe the wallet is actually several parts - like the priv keys might be stored with application level error correction, and the transaction metadata with application level consistency?
1408 2012-10-10 21:51:47 <edcba> but the integrity should be the responsibility of DB
1409 2012-10-10 21:52:04 <sipa> amiller: i suppoe, yes
1410 2012-10-10 21:52:16 <edcba> or if corruption happens in memory just divides by 0 since you can't assume anything
1411 2012-10-10 21:52:23 <sipa> but if you want application-level error correction you'll need a model of how disk corruption works
1412 2012-10-10 21:52:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1413 2012-10-10 21:52:42 <sipa> those are usually just a few sectors that become unreadable
1414 2012-10-10 21:52:59 <sipa> not random bits that get flipped, for example
1415 2012-10-10 21:53:02 <edcba> still it is responsibility of DB or OS or whatever you want
1416 2012-10-10 21:53:10 <amiller> i think i agree with midnightmagic that tahoe-lafs' model is the right one for recovery
1417 2012-10-10 21:53:20 <sipa> being?
1418 2012-10-10 21:53:21 <amiller> you'd want to split the private key in m-of-n style, over multiple sectors or multiple files or w/e
1419 2012-10-10 21:53:37 <edcba> or multiple disks...
1420 2012-10-10 21:53:43 <edcba> or multiple clouds...
1421 2012-10-10 21:53:48 <edcba> or multiple universes
1422 2012-10-10 21:53:50 <amiller> scattered across the land
1423 2012-10-10 21:53:54 <edcba> oh no we can't do that
1424 2012-10-10 21:53:57 <amiller> like in dragon ball z
1425 2012-10-10 21:54:08 <sipa> yeah, i think at that points i don't think it's within the scope of what we're trying to do
1426 2012-10-10 21:54:26 <amiller> yeah, likely not :p
1427 2012-10-10 21:54:27 <sipa> i'd rather have the program make automated encrypted backups
1428 2012-10-10 21:54:53 <sipa> which is far easier, and also provides protection against a much more likely threat: humans
1429 2012-10-10 21:54:57 <edcba> the only thing we need to assure is we can backup files and reuse it some time later :)
1430 2012-10-10 21:54:59 <amiller> well i made my main point which is that recovery rather than integrity is what i think matters for priv keys, i'm not sure about the other parts of the wallet though
1431 2012-10-10 21:55:05 <edcba> without losing all your coins :)
1432 2012-10-10 21:55:15 <edcba> damn epic fail :)
1433 2012-10-10 21:55:31 <sipa> i think integrity is essential, and something you cannot expect from the OS already
1434 2012-10-10 21:55:50 <sipa> as you have partial writes that can be interrupted
1435 2012-10-10 21:56:13 <sipa> (though some filesystems do provide atomic transactions, i don't think we can rely on those)
1436 2012-10-10 21:56:25 <edcba> you have to know what needs to be transactionnaly written
1437 2012-10-10 21:56:33 <sipa> that's not a problem
1438 2012-10-10 21:56:44 <edcba> but i'd still prefer a deterministic wallet...
1439 2012-10-10 21:56:50 <sipa> yeah, me too
1440 2012-10-10 21:57:00 lggr has joined
1441 2012-10-10 21:57:04 <edcba> even if it decreases security
1442 2012-10-10 21:57:53 <edcba> maybe not tied to a password yet but still a backupable wallet for eternity
1443 2012-10-10 21:58:35 <sipa> hmm, never thought about that
1444 2012-10-10 21:58:50 <sipa> you could have a deterministic wallet reset its seed every time you make a backup
1445 2012-10-10 21:59:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: ^
1446 2012-10-10 22:00:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: linux qt build doesn't match
1447 2012-10-10 22:00:46 <gavinandresen> sipa: sigh
1448 2012-10-10 22:01:18 <sipa> what's the link to your qt/deps?
1449 2012-10-10 22:01:22 <sipa> i'l retry with those
1450 2012-10-10 22:01:33 <sipa> win32 build matches
1451 2012-10-10 22:01:34 <gavinandresen> skypaint.com/bitcoin
1452 2012-10-10 22:01:35 <sipa> and sigs pushed
1453 2012-10-10 22:02:46 <sipa> oh, wait... those aren't used for linux
1454 2012-10-10 22:03:07 <sipa> gavinandresen: where are your binaries?
1455 2012-10-10 22:03:11 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1456 2012-10-10 22:03:29 <gavinandresen> I uploaded to sourceforge
1457 2012-10-10 22:03:32 <sipa> ok, got them
1458 2012-10-10 22:04:00 <gavinandresen> I'm starting a kvm build, to see if I get a mismatch kvm versus lxc ....
1459 2012-10-10 22:04:27 <sipa> oh, i used kvm entirely now
1460 2012-10-10 22:06:29 lggr has joined
1461 2012-10-10 22:08:36 <sipa> decompiling the file gives entire the same result
1462 2012-10-10 22:09:44 <sipa> both 32-bit and 64-bit
1463 2012-10-10 22:13:43 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1467 2012-10-10 22:17:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: got it!
1468 2012-10-10 22:17:42 <sipa> it's a header that differs
1469 2012-10-10 22:17:51 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1470 2012-10-10 22:18:21 <sipa> the version of gcc
1471 2012-10-10 22:18:59 <sipa> wait no
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1473 2012-10-10 22:19:08 <sipa> there are two headers in different order
1474 2012-10-10 22:19:12 <sipa> swapped
1475 2012-10-10 22:20:09 <gavinandresen> ... so all the individual files are the same, but the master checksum is different?
1476 2012-10-10 22:20:28 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1477 2012-10-10 22:20:32 <sipa> no, a header inside the binary
1478 2012-10-10 22:20:44 <sipa> about the GCC and library versions used
1479 2012-10-10 22:20:59 <sipa> your binary has them in one order, mine in the opposite order
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1502 2012-10-10 22:57:23 <gmaxwell> kjj_: it's not clear to me that that guy knows pools are made of people.
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1512 2012-10-10 23:19:28 <slush> gmaxwell: what guy? (I read the channel history and still don't understand)
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1514 2012-10-10 23:21:30 <gmaxwell> slush: sorry, crossing streams with the forum.
1515 2012-10-10 23:21:33 <slush> ok
1516 2012-10-10 23:22:14 <gmaxwell> Someone concerned with the consolidation of hash rate into pools, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117638.0  the thread has become rather acrimonious.
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1519 2012-10-10 23:24:41 <slush> gmaxwell: oh this. thanks for link
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