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  47 2012-10-14 01:32:27 <Luke-Jr> If anyone is interested in porting Coin Control GUI to master properly, they're making bounty offers now: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24784.msg1270237#msg1270237
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  52 2012-10-14 01:35:19 <Joric> i thought it's already ported but nobody wants to maintain it
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  54 2012-10-14 01:37:36 <Luke-Jr> Joric: I "ported" it in that it works, but I didn't clean it up so it works *correctly*
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  59 2012-10-14 01:42:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: someone ought to drop a link to sipa's comments about how it was organized.
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  64 2012-10-14 01:55:44 <jgarzik> craziness
  65 2012-10-14 01:56:26 <jgarzik> there are a bunch of sites out there that generate real-looking random identities.  generally used for two purposes:  test data, or black hat cracking.
  66 2012-10-14 01:56:54 <jgarzik> real-looking names, valid address/city/zip code combos, phone numbers and credit card numbers that pass basic validation tests
  67 2012-10-14 01:57:01 <vazakl> http://www.fakenamegenerator.com/
  68 2012-10-14 01:57:25 * jgarzik just found a new one, http://randomvin.com/  for randomly generated automobile VINs
  69 2012-10-14 01:57:30 <vazakl> nice
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  72 2012-10-14 02:00:55 <jgarzik> "fix. fix! fix! scan. fix!"
  73 2012-10-14 02:00:58 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117874.msg1270661#msg1270661
  74 2012-10-14 02:01:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell predicted this
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  86 2012-10-14 02:29:42 <MC1984> whats the big things about coin control
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  89 2012-10-14 02:31:36 <MC1984> oh more like input address control
  90 2012-10-14 02:36:41 <phungus> yessir to avoid sending the *wrong* coins
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  92 2012-10-14 02:36:54 <phungus> for those sneaky money laundering bastids
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 123 2012-10-14 03:38:15 <elkingrey> I've just installed Fedora for the first time and am confused about how to install Bitcoin. Can anybody help?
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 150 2012-10-14 04:52:13 <jgarzik> kaboom!
 151 2012-10-14 04:52:15 <jgarzik> Progress: 3.7%, dl from 11 of 13 peers (1.78 MiB/s), ul to 0 (0 KiB/s) [0.00]
 152 2012-10-14 04:52:35 <jgarzik> transmission, from a fresh start
 153 2012-10-14 04:52:55 <jgarzik> took a few moments to find peers, then they and the traffic came flooding in.
 154 2012-10-14 04:53:24 <jgarzik> that's about as fast as my home AT&T will manage...  Progress: 9.8%, dl from 11 of 13 peers (2.17 MiB/s), ul to 0 (0 KiB/s) [0.00]
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 168 2012-10-14 05:32:59 <MC1984> The organism begins to consume cells of the brain piecemeal by means of a unique sucking apparatus extended from its cell surface.[9]
 169 2012-10-14 05:33:03 <MC1984> :D
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 171 2012-10-14 05:33:07 <MC1984> D:
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 181 2012-10-14 06:03:07 <D34TH> anybody getting http://pastebin.com/BwegV4LA when trying to get abe running?
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 253 2012-10-14 08:45:11 <Joric> may i get network 'max height' from bitcoind?
 254 2012-10-14 08:50:18 <wumpus> no afaik, that crappy estimate is only kept for the gui
 255 2012-10-14 08:51:45 <Joric> how it decides that it's synced?
 256 2012-10-14 08:52:22 <Joric> guess this is crappy estimate too
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 258 2012-10-14 08:53:19 <wumpus> yes
 259 2012-10-14 08:53:29 <wumpus> there is no reliable way to know
 260 2012-10-14 08:54:39 <wumpus> to check if it is synced, it checks whether the most recent block was generated within the last 90 minutes
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 262 2012-10-14 08:55:14 <wumpus> if that's not the case you can be pretty sure that you're *not* synced, but it doesn't work the other way around 
 263 2012-10-14 08:55:32 <Joric> that's a slightly less crappy estimate
 264 2012-10-14 08:56:26 * sipa starts singing the headers-first song
 265 2012-10-14 08:57:31 <wumpus> yes, though it's still impecise, so be careful: it relies on the local time setting, and it could in principle take 90 minutes for a new block to appear
 266 2012-10-14 08:58:15 <wumpus> headers-first would solve the "what's the maximum height", though not "am I synced" 
 267 2012-10-14 08:58:39 <wumpus> though you'd still have the crappy estimate while downloading headers :-)
 268 2012-10-14 08:59:09 <sipa> sure, but at least you'll get a good estimate soonish
 269 2012-10-14 08:59:26 <sipa> + you'll be able to have a progressbar based on the number of transactions, not just the number of blocks
 270 2012-10-14 08:59:52 <Joric> i wonder how are you calculating max height must be some tricky filtered/weighted average i can't solve it right away
 271 2012-10-14 09:00:01 <wumpus> a median filter
 272 2012-10-14 09:00:35 <wumpus> though it's only updated when nodes connect, or connecting to nodes, because the "current height" is in the initial packet... so once the number of connections is stable, it's hardly ever updated
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 274 2012-10-14 09:02:03 <sipa> jgarzik: haha, savagewallet :)
 275 2012-10-14 09:02:12 <sipa> i must admit i didn't see the typo myself at first
 276 2012-10-14 09:02:30 <wumpus> lol
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 281 2012-10-14 09:07:26 <wumpus> sipa: yes I think a progressbar on the number of transactions would be more representative for the progress, as later blocks are much larger
 282 2012-10-14 09:08:25 <sipa> it's a pity the ntx count isn't included in the block hash
 283 2012-10-14 09:08:43 <sipa> so a node can lie in the answer to a getheaders
 284 2012-10-14 09:08:57 <wumpus> hmm ouch
 285 2012-10-14 09:08:57 <sipa> and screw up your progressbar! oh noes!
 286 2012-10-14 09:09:44 <wumpus> yeah for the progress bar it's not important to be super-precise
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 290 2012-10-14 09:10:47 <sipa> but it's import to realize this information (which gets stored in the block index) may be incorrect, and needs a way to be updated if the actual count seen during a getdata is different
 291 2012-10-14 09:12:09 <wumpus> also, once we no longer download all transactions, a progress bar based on global number of transactions is not useful.. .it would just be *current number of transactions*/*number of transactions we're interested in*
 292 2012-10-14 09:12:49 <sipa> you're talking about SPV mode with bloom filters?
 293 2012-10-14 09:12:56 <wumpus> yes
 294 2012-10-14 09:13:09 <wumpus> it wouldn't have a linear download order anymore
 295 2012-10-14 09:13:25 <sipa> i somehow see that as a totally separate thing
 296 2012-10-14 09:13:38 <wumpus> yes, it's a separate thing
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 298 2012-10-14 09:13:42 <sipa> there is the blockchain validation on one side, a wallet on the other
 299 2012-10-14 09:14:00 <sipa> this is just about the validation, which happens to send seen transactions to the wallet as well
 300 2012-10-14 09:14:20 <sipa> in SPV mode, you don't do validation anymore whatsoever, and need a wallet-specific mechanism to get your transactions
 301 2012-10-14 09:14:36 <wumpus> true...
 302 2012-10-14 09:14:39 <sipa> but yes, it's true what you say - the same progressbar mechanism can't be used there
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 338 2012-10-14 10:39:33 <Klerkyl> I know a crazy computer that if you send it exactly 2.5845 btc .. you'll get back to 25! address is 1K4RoHvsEsptwF5jZL5gGQe6wRLRCvv83n
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 343 2012-10-14 10:46:33 <freep88> http://www.freepenguin.it/index-en.html
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 354 2012-10-14 11:10:31 <Klerkyl> I know a crazy computer that if you send it exactly 2.5845 btc .. you'll get back to 25! address is 1K4RoHvsEsptwF5jZL5gGQe6wRLRCvv83n
 355 2012-10-14 11:10:32 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 356 2012-10-14 11:10:43 <amiller> Klerkyl, stop it
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 358 2012-10-14 11:13:51 <Klerkyl> I know a crazy computer that if you send it exactly 2.5845 btc .. you'll get back to 25! address is 1K4RoHvsEsptwF5jZL5gGQe6wRLRCvv83n
 359 2012-10-14 11:14:00 <ne0futur> he also spammed #bitcoin-hosting
 360 2012-10-14 11:14:10 <ne0futur> and have auto join on kick I had to ban him
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 362 2012-10-14 11:16:56 <kreal> I know a crazy computer as well.
 363 2012-10-14 11:17:11 <Klerkyl> I know a crazy computer that if you send it exactly 2.5845 btc .. you'll get back to 25! address is 1K4RoHvsEsptwF5jZL5gGQe6wRLRCvv83n
 364 2012-10-14 11:17:31 <kreal> 25 what is the question
 365 2012-10-14 11:17:39 <kreal> 25 slaps to your face for being stupid?
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 368 2012-10-14 11:20:31 <Klerkyl> I know a crazy computer that if you send it exactly 2.5845 btc .. you'll get back to 25! address is 1K4RoHvsEsptwF5jZL5gGQe6wRLRCvv83n
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 371 2012-10-14 11:26:04 <agath> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1K4RoHvsEsptwF5jZL5gGQe6wRLRCvv83n
 372 2012-10-14 11:26:35 <agath> since that address didn't receive ANY btc, it means obviously that it is a scam
 373 2012-10-14 11:27:07 <kreal> Hey! I send 25 and got 2.5845 back.
 374 2012-10-14 11:27:22 <kreal> what trickery is this ?
 375 2012-10-14 11:27:28 <kreal> :)
 376 2012-10-14 11:27:32 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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 421 2012-10-14 12:12:31 <NonVerba> morning all
 422 2012-10-14 12:13:03 <NonVerba> anybody around or not so much?
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 455 2012-10-14 13:30:08 <asa1024> ;;ticker
 456 2012-10-14 13:30:08 <gribble> Best bid: 11.89, Best ask: 11.9269, Bid-ask spread: 0.03690, Last trade: 11.89, 24 hour volume: 14450, 24 hour low: 11.85, 24 hour high: 12.078
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 528 2012-10-14 16:05:12 <MC1984> http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/ live telemetry
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 540 2012-10-14 16:35:20 <TD> does anyone know the avg number of inputs per transaction?
 541 2012-10-14 16:35:23 <TD> (off hand)
 542 2012-10-14 16:36:18 <edcba> 2.4 maybe
 543 2012-10-14 16:36:34 lggr has joined
 544 2012-10-14 16:38:10 <TD> where did you get that figure?
 545 2012-10-14 16:38:18 <TD> i can write a program to calculate it but ….. if somebody already did :)
 546 2012-10-14 16:38:54 <sipa> i can tell you the number of outputs per transaction
 547 2012-10-14 16:38:59 xisalty has joined
 548 2012-10-14 16:39:03 <TD> i want avg sigops per tx
 549 2012-10-14 16:39:10 <TD> i'm rewriting the scalability page
 550 2012-10-14 16:39:11 <sipa> 2.07
 551 2012-10-14 16:39:20 <TD> ok. is that outputs or sigops
 552 2012-10-14 16:39:24 <sipa> outputs
 553 2012-10-14 16:39:48 <sipa> and the number of unspent outputs is slightly increasing, so the number of inputs/tx is slightly lowe
 554 2012-10-14 16:39:54 <TD> call it 2?
 555 2012-10-14 16:39:57 <Luke-Jr> sigh @ wumpus making Bitcoin-Qt non-free :<
 556 2012-10-14 16:40:05 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how so?
 557 2012-10-14 16:40:14 * TD guesses it's icons again
 558 2012-10-14 16:40:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: he replaced GPL'd icons with non-free ones
 559 2012-10-14 16:40:29 <sipa> define non-free
 560 2012-10-14 16:40:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the first one is only free to redistribute, but not modify/etc
 561 2012-10-14 16:41:06 <sipa> hmm, ok
 562 2012-10-14 16:41:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the second one explicitly forbids use in certain applications, and I didn't look further
 563 2012-10-14 16:41:21 <sipa> the previous situation was just illegal
 564 2012-10-14 16:41:25 <Luke-Jr> no?
 565 2012-10-14 16:41:38 <sipa> (as including GPL icons would make the entire program necessarily GPL)
 566 2012-10-14 16:41:50 <gmaxwell> No, it wasn't. Our distribution is compatible with the terms of the GPL.
 567 2012-10-14 16:41:54 <sipa> oh, ok
 568 2012-10-14 16:42:03 <gmaxwell> (though I agree it's undesirable)
 569 2012-10-14 16:42:12 <sipa> including an icon is not considered linking?
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 571 2012-10-14 16:42:25 <Luke-Jr> I agree GPL is not ideal, but it was certainly better than the new non-free ones IMO
 572 2012-10-14 16:42:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: GPL only infects like that if it's directly derived
 573 2012-10-14 16:42:55 <Luke-Jr> maybe if we static-link OpenSSL it would be a problem
 574 2012-10-14 16:43:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: If it is or isn't, our distribution was still lawful either way because we offer the software under GPL compatible terms.  Though thats a point about OpenSSL, though that issue is widely ignored.
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 577 2012-10-14 16:44:54 <gmaxwell> Assuming that the licensing of the icons encumbered us, then we were obligated to comply with the GPL.  Though nothing in the GPL prohibits you from offering the parts you wrote under alternative terms.
 578 2012-10-14 16:44:57 <TD> tx size average is still 0.5kb?
 579 2012-10-14 16:45:22 <gmaxwell> TD: that even sounds a bit large to me.
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 581 2012-10-14 16:45:34 <sipa> sure, distributing GPL and MIT licensed things together is allowed, but creating something derived from those icons (no idea whether including them in a binary is deriving) and distributing it would mean the source of the entire program must be released as GPL as well, no?
 582 2012-10-14 16:46:18 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it means the source of the entire program must be available under GPL-or-more-free terms, but not that the other parts must themselves enforce the GPL provisions
 583 2012-10-14 16:46:19 <gmaxwell> Someone should offer to vanity gen some compressed public keys for dice. I wonder how much that would reduce the chain size?
 584 2012-10-14 16:46:59 <TD> i still haven't added support for compressed pubkeys to bcj so they couldn't use them
 585 2012-10-14 16:47:08 <TD> otherwise i'm sure they'd do it. i'll try and get around to that this release cycle.
 586 2012-10-14 16:47:09 * Luke-Jr facepalms
 587 2012-10-14 16:47:17 <gmaxwell> What luke said. Technically— given the broder possible reading of the implications of the icons— we were obligated to comply with the gpl, but nothing can force us to impose that on other people.
 588 2012-10-14 16:47:27 <gmaxwell> TD: well there is no vanity generator for them right now.
 589 2012-10-14 16:47:30 <TD> oh
 590 2012-10-14 16:47:32 <TD> ok
 591 2012-10-14 16:47:46 <gmaxwell> But they're they're only fixing about three bytes... so it wouldn't be hard.
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 593 2012-10-14 16:47:51 <sipa> TD: at height 203258, there have been 7979231 transactions
 594 2012-10-14 16:48:11 * Luke-Jr ponders trying to get 7979797
 595 2012-10-14 16:48:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: oh god don't suggest that.
 596 2012-10-14 16:49:22 <Luke-Jr> XD
 597 2012-10-14 16:49:34 <sipa> that means over all time, tx size is less than 435 bytes
 598 2012-10-14 16:49:36 <sipa> on average
 599 2012-10-14 16:50:11 <sipa> 433 bytes, actually
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 602 2012-10-14 16:54:55 <TD> ok
 603 2012-10-14 16:55:14 <TD> sipa: unto set size is?
 604 2012-10-14 16:55:24 <TD> it fits in ram iirc. it's small, right? like 80 mb or something ridiculous
 605 2012-10-14 16:55:53 <TD> er
 606 2012-10-14 16:55:56 <TD> stupid autocorrect
 607 2012-10-14 16:55:57 <TD> UXTO
 608 2012-10-14 16:56:39 <sipa> ultraprune-serialized, uncompressed, without database overhead: 104555720 bytes
 609 2012-10-14 16:56:50 <sipa> (less than 100 MiB)
 610 2012-10-14 16:57:39 <sipa> the leveldb directory is ~122 MB
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 612 2012-10-14 16:58:26 <graingert> sipa: is that the full chain?
 613 2012-10-14 16:58:48 <gmaxwell> TD: but growing expoentially :(
 614 2012-10-14 16:59:00 <sipa> graingert: no, just the set of unspent transaction outputs
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 619 2012-10-14 17:05:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: is it?
 620 2012-10-14 17:06:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: that would imply a straight green line on http://bitcoin.sipa.be/pruning-size.png
 621 2012-10-14 17:07:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm getting so sick of this
 622 2012-10-14 17:08:15 <wumpus> there's always something to complain about isn't there?
 623 2012-10-14 17:09:29 <TD> ok
 624 2012-10-14 17:09:33 <TD> i updated https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
 625 2012-10-14 17:09:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: looks pretty straight to me in the last 10k or so blocks.
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 627 2012-10-14 17:10:13 <TD> wumpus: i think you do a great job with the gui
 628 2012-10-14 17:10:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: there's been a change in the growth pattern recently, but i don't think it'll remain straight now
 629 2012-10-14 17:10:24 <gmaxwell> Though I hope some improvements to coin selection will ultimately help.
 630 2012-10-14 17:10:38 <TD> sipa: it's a rewrite to use numbers based on ultra prune and remove discussions of optimizations that are either already implemented or trivially implemented.
 631 2012-10-14 17:10:49 <sipa> TD: i'll have a look soon
 632 2012-10-14 17:11:25 <gmaxwell> wumpus: geesh. It's not anything personal. You do a great job as TD says.  The licensing stuff is always a minor pain. We just work through it as issues are spotted. Your response to luke should be "OKAY. Go find other ones that make everyone happy".
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 634 2012-10-14 17:13:14 <sipa> you can always ask the author for an MIT-or-more-liberal license
 635 2012-10-14 17:13:41 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 636 2012-10-14 17:13:50 <gmaxwell> Or that, indeed.
 637 2012-10-14 17:13:59 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I already did that when xanatos complained that we had GPL icons, but then he contributed icons which were even worse license, how can I know, I'm not a friggin lawyer
 638 2012-10-14 17:14:56 <sipa> i think "worseness of license" is far from a scalar variable
 639 2012-10-14 17:14:59 <wumpus> I don't *want* to be a lawyer, and I cannot draw icons myself either, so I have no idea what to do
 640 2012-10-14 17:15:10 <wumpus> anyway I'm reverting the commit again
 641 2012-10-14 17:15:23 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, well right. It's not your job to know, we're a team.  You let the people who care and know something battle it out. :P
 642 2012-10-14 17:15:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: you seem to understand the licenses well; what do you suggest?
 643 2012-10-14 17:15:40 <wumpus> I suggest porting the ui to ncurses :p
 644 2012-10-14 17:15:45 <gmaxwell> hahaha
 645 2012-10-14 17:15:48 <gmaxwell> I support that idea.
 646 2012-10-14 17:16:04 <sipa> don't forget a blinkenleds interface
 647 2012-10-14 17:16:43 <wumpus> hehe, so you can watch the block chain in binary?
 648 2012-10-14 17:16:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: Contacting people for licenses sounds like a good idea where we can— Ideally we'd have as much of the package uniformly under a common license as we can.
 649 2012-10-14 17:17:22 <gmaxwell> "oh no! I just lost 4096 bitcoin" "whew, the led just burned out"
 650 2012-10-14 17:17:24 Diablo-D3 has joined
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 653 2012-10-14 17:18:34 <wumpus> what license do we need for the icons? does it matter at all as long as we are allowed to distribute them?
 654 2012-10-14 17:19:37 <wumpus> there is no such thing as "source code" to an image, things like GPL are meaningless
 655 2012-10-14 17:22:12 lggr has joined
 656 2012-10-14 17:25:37 <gmaxwell> wumpus: If we're asking we should ask for the same MIT license that our code has. For a requirement, we should not use anything that has restrictions on modifications, usage types, or redistribution— or which imposes copyleft terms which might be argued to apply to the whole package. So ideal is {same as bitcoin}, then CC-BY or LGPL, CC-By-SA should probably be avoided (copyleft, arguable if it's more GPL or LGPL like), GPL should be avoide
 657 2012-10-14 17:26:11 <wumpus> artists don't really reason in terms of GPL and MIT and such
 658 2012-10-14 17:27:08 <gmaxwell> Oh and I omitted, another excellent option for us is {released to public domain}.
 659 2012-10-14 17:27:34 <gmaxwell> (or equivalent like cc-0)
 660 2012-10-14 17:27:46 TheEslbear has joined
 661 2012-10-14 17:28:00 <wumpus> it's almost impossible to find art that is MIT licensed, of course, you could ask someone to custom-design icons and license them as MIT, but I'm not paying
 662 2012-10-14 17:28:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: "If we're asking we should ask for the same MIT license" I didn't expect you to find it. You can, however, find PD stuff pretty easily.
 663 2012-10-14 17:28:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 664 2012-10-14 17:28:59 <wumpus> well, I really tried back when I searched for the icons
 665 2012-10-14 17:29:49 <gmaxwell> wumpus: e.g. if someone has some GPL or CC-By-NC-ND license we can drop them an email and say we like their license and would like it to be in bitcoin, but license proliferation is killing us and our package is MIT licensed. Would they be willing to release the license under the same terms as our package?
 666 2012-10-14 17:30:17 <wumpus> anyway, let's go back to things that matter for the user experience
 667 2012-10-14 17:30:52 <wumpus> yeah that'd be possible
 668 2012-10-14 17:31:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, I'm not suggesting you should spend a ton of time on this. I'll work on it some, and we should push back to people who point out issues. They care, let them do the heavy lifting.
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 672 2012-10-14 17:31:53 <gmaxwell> This is not an urgent matter. It's something we should get right eventually. It's also not coding related, so it's something contributors who don't code can work on.
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 686 2012-10-14 17:50:54 <Raccoon> A guy is jumping from the edge of space @ 120,000 feet in a few moments. This may permit for astronauts to parachute to Earth some day. LIVE @ http://www.youtube.com/redbull
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 691 2012-10-14 17:54:16 <D34TH> Raccoon, if you go to http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/ you can also see the stats about his dive
 692 2012-10-14 17:54:56 <Raccoon> It's a GO
 693 2012-10-14 17:55:23 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 694 2012-10-14 17:55:30 <sipa> grrrr why does youtube fail me now?
 695 2012-10-14 17:55:37 AlexWaters has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 696 2012-10-14 17:55:41 <darkip> Failing for me too
 697 2012-10-14 17:55:53 <D34TH> sipa, i wonder how much traffic is going just through that stream
 698 2012-10-14 17:56:07 AlexWaters has joined
 699 2012-10-14 17:56:33 <lianj> 5,624,825 watching now
 700 2012-10-14 17:56:42 <lianj> not all HD though
 701 2012-10-14 17:57:25 <D34TH> -13.3C up there
 702 2012-10-14 17:58:06 <lianj> thats because upper stratosphere gets warmer again
 703 2012-10-14 17:58:17 <D34TH> true
 704 2012-10-14 17:58:19 lggr has joined
 705 2012-10-14 17:58:47 denisx has joined
 706 2012-10-14 17:59:26 <D34TH> over 24 miles up, thats a little bit high
 707 2012-10-14 18:00:50 <D34TH> ~39km is about halfway through the stratosphere right?
 708 2012-10-14 18:01:22 <Diablo-D3> its already started? damn
 709 2012-10-14 18:01:33 <D34TH> he is doing pre-jump checks
 710 2012-10-14 18:03:10 <Diablo-D3> [amsg] guy jumps from space, live now: http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/
 711 2012-10-14 18:03:19 <Diablo-D3> [amsg] guy jumps from space, live now: http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/
 712 2012-10-14 18:03:24 <Diablo-D3> derp
 713 2012-10-14 18:03:27 <Diablo-D3> helps if I actually amsg it
 714 2012-10-14 18:03:30 <Raccoon> Try Google Chrome if Firefox/addblockers are getting stuck on "Starting soon..."
 715 2012-10-14 18:03:46 <Diablo-D3> its not firefox, just adblock
 716 2012-10-14 18:03:53 <Diablo-D3> turn it completely off for now
 717 2012-10-14 18:04:02 <darkip> What is the merkle root in the genesis block based on?
 718 2012-10-14 18:04:04 <Diablo-D3> adp in google chrome should have the same issue
 719 2012-10-14 18:04:10 <Diablo-D3> darkip: magic
 720 2012-10-14 18:04:20 <sipa> darkip: like any other blocks, the transactions
 721 2012-10-14 18:04:27 <darkip> but there are no transactions?
 722 2012-10-14 18:04:33 <darkip> being the genesis block and all...
 723 2012-10-14 18:04:34 <sipa> yes there is one, the coinbase
 724 2012-10-14 18:04:44 <sipa> like many other blocks, it only has a coinbase tx
 725 2012-10-14 18:05:02 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 726 2012-10-14 18:05:10 <Diablo-D3> darkip: the merkle root is of the transactions of THIS block
 727 2012-10-14 18:05:26 <Diablo-D3> the question I think you want to ask is what is the genesis' blocks previous block field
 728 2012-10-14 18:05:31 Eslbaer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 729 2012-10-14 18:05:43 <darkip> Yeah, that's it
 730 2012-10-14 18:05:48 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
 731 2012-10-14 18:05:52 <sipa> the answer to that question is 0
 732 2012-10-14 18:06:00 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I think its just 0
 733 2012-10-14 18:06:08 <darkip> Fair enough
 734 2012-10-14 18:06:29 <sipa> yes, it is
 735 2012-10-14 18:06:34 <darkip> I'm just trying to get to grips with the lower-level bitcoin things as I'm considering setting up a blockchain similar to litecoin but using SHA-3
 736 2012-10-14 18:06:56 <sipa> why?
 737 2012-10-14 18:07:03 <darkip> why not?
 738 2012-10-14 18:07:05 <Diablo-D3> not worth it
 739 2012-10-14 18:07:14 <Diablo-D3> if we need sha3, bitcoin will just switch
 740 2012-10-14 18:07:16 <darkip> It's more an exercise than anything practical
 741 2012-10-14 18:07:27 <sipa> sure, can be educative
 742 2012-10-14 18:07:28 lggr has joined
 743 2012-10-14 18:07:42 <darkip> I've just started a new job and I'm on testing for 2 months
 744 2012-10-14 18:07:51 <darkip> so I'm dying to do a bit of coding outside
 745 2012-10-14 18:08:13 <sipa> but right now, SHA-3 has had far less exposure than SHA-2 had, and there are no known vulnerabilities in SHA-2 that are an issue for bitcoin
 746 2012-10-14 18:09:14 <darkip> true
 747 2012-10-14 18:09:25 <Diablo-D3> sipa: btw
 748 2012-10-14 18:09:29 <Diablo-D3> whats the maximum difficulty?
 749 2012-10-14 18:10:10 <sipa> around 2^224, i suppose
 750 2012-10-14 18:10:49 nsh has joined
 751 2012-10-14 18:10:51 <Diablo-D3> so we can go the whole way to the last bit?
 752 2012-10-14 18:11:14 Eslbaer has joined
 753 2012-10-14 18:11:38 <sipa> 2^208 * 65535
 754 2012-10-14 18:11:51 elkingrey has joined
 755 2012-10-14 18:12:04 <Diablo-D3> I mean, the maximum difficulty answer will just be 0, right?
 756 2012-10-14 18:12:18 <Diablo-D3> (if it exists, anyways)
 757 2012-10-14 18:12:43 <sipa> yes
 758 2012-10-14 18:13:09 <sipa> there are technically no limits on the difficulty, afaik
 759 2012-10-14 18:13:19 <Diablo-D3> well, you'll run out of bits in sha256
 760 2012-10-14 18:13:25 <sipa> so if it would go above that value, through normal means, bitcoin will break :)
 761 2012-10-14 18:13:32 <Diablo-D3> yeah, that
 762 2012-10-14 18:13:45 <Diablo-D3> gribble: 2^224
 763 2012-10-14 18:13:48 <Diablo-D3> er
 764 2012-10-14 18:13:53 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 2^224
 765 2012-10-14 18:13:54 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
 766 2012-10-14 18:13:57 <Diablo-D3> ;;calc 2**224
 767 2012-10-14 18:13:57 <gribble> 26959946667150639794667015087019630673637144422540572481103610249216
 768 2012-10-14 18:14:01 <Diablo-D3> ffffffffffff
 769 2012-10-14 18:14:05 <sipa> ;;calc 2**208 * 65535
 770 2012-10-14 18:14:06 <gribble> 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
 771 2012-10-14 18:14:12 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 772 2012-10-14 18:14:15 <Diablo-D3> I dont think we'll have a problem for awhile
 773 2012-10-14 18:14:32 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,diff
 774 2012-10-14 18:14:33 <gribble> 3054627.5269486
 775 2012-10-14 18:14:41 <Diablo-D3> not for quite some time
 776 2012-10-14 18:15:22 <D34TH> not unless ultramegasuper asic farm appears overnight at 10000000 EH/s
 777 2012-10-14 18:15:31 <wumpus> likely never, at least with brute force
 778 2012-10-14 18:15:49 <sipa> door has opened
 779 2012-10-14 18:15:54 <Diablo-D3> door opened
 780 2012-10-14 18:15:54 <gmaxwell> we'll need a new sun first. :P
 781 2012-10-14 18:15:59 <D34TH> door opened
 782 2012-10-14 18:16:05 <jgarzik> the door has opened
 783 2012-10-14 18:16:12 <Diablo-D3> godspeed, brass balls guy
 784 2012-10-14 18:16:13 mmoya has joined
 785 2012-10-14 18:16:25 <D34TH> terminal velocity, brass balls guy
 786 2012-10-14 18:16:41 <Diablo-D3> isnt that what I said?
 787 2012-10-14 18:16:47 <sipa> 39 km!
 788 2012-10-14 18:17:16 <jgarzik> just a little bit further forward ;p
 789 2012-10-14 18:17:18 <Diablo-D3> youtube feed is behind, hes already jumping
 790 2012-10-14 18:17:31 lggr has joined
 791 2012-10-14 18:17:46 <D34TH> discovery is cheating
 792 2012-10-14 18:17:48 <sipa> no spoilers!!!
 793 2012-10-14 18:17:58 <D34TH> they pushed fast forward on the dvr
 794 2012-10-14 18:18:11 <Diablo-D3> TITANIC SINKS AT THE END, AERITH DIES, SPIKE DIES, DYKE SPIES!
 795 2012-10-14 18:18:25 <sipa> BILL GETS KILLED
 796 2012-10-14 18:18:33 <Diablo-D3> JESUS DIES!
 797 2012-10-14 18:18:39 <D34TH> i hope he does a backflip
 798 2012-10-14 18:18:45 <D34TH> for professional badassery
 799 2012-10-14 18:18:59 <Diablo-D3> yeah, its redbull after all
 800 2012-10-14 18:19:26 <graingert> #stratos
 801 2012-10-14 18:19:37 <Diablo-D3> he jumped
 802 2012-10-14 18:19:47 <graingert> he gooone
 803 2012-10-14 18:19:57 <Diablo-D3> 500mph
 804 2012-10-14 18:20:22 <Diablo-D3> 729
 805 2012-10-14 18:20:26 <sipa> i think this proves once and for all, that redbull does not give one wings
 806 2012-10-14 18:20:33 <Diablo-D3> lol mission control is in roswell
 807 2012-10-14 18:20:47 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I udnno, they sponsored the mission to get up there
 808 2012-10-14 18:21:17 <sipa> this isn't flying, it's falling with style!
 809 2012-10-14 18:22:01 Eslbaer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 810 2012-10-14 18:22:19 Eslbaer has joined
 811 2012-10-14 18:22:46 <Diablo-D3> I think he just said he feels like hes going to pass out
 812 2012-10-14 18:23:17 <graingert> #stratos
 813 2012-10-14 18:23:22 <Diablo-D3> visor is fogging up
 814 2012-10-14 18:23:27 <sipa> why couldn't they give him a camera? :(
 815 2012-10-14 18:23:30 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 816 2012-10-14 18:23:45 <Diablo-D3> sipa: his suit has cameras
 817 2012-10-14 18:24:00 <Diablo-D3> he didnt beat the record
 818 2012-10-14 18:24:12 <sipa> haven't seen any imagery from his suit
 819 2012-10-14 18:24:21 <Diablo-D3> its not live imagery
 820 2012-10-14 18:24:26 <sipa> ah
 821 2012-10-14 18:25:02 <graingert> not live?
 822 2012-10-14 18:25:09 <graingert> the hell is it then?
 823 2012-10-14 18:25:10 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I wasn't complaining about GPL icons
 824 2012-10-14 18:25:19 <Diablo-D3> no, his suit cameras
 825 2012-10-14 18:25:24 <Diablo-D3> this is external
 826 2012-10-14 18:26:00 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I know, but the other guy was
 827 2012-10-14 18:26:09 <Luke-Jr> always thought it'd be nice if Qt supports curses :P
 828 2012-10-14 18:26:37 lggr has joined
 829 2012-10-14 18:26:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: CC-BY (at least some versions?) is non-free FYI
 830 2012-10-14 18:27:19 <wumpus> so xanatos wants to get rid of gpl icons, you want gpl icons, the only thing I care about is that we're not doing something illegal, so go fight it out between the two of you :p
 831 2012-10-14 18:27:22 optimato_ has joined
 832 2012-10-14 18:27:42 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I don't care much what license the icons are, as long as they're free and legal to use.
 833 2012-10-14 18:28:06 <Luke-Jr> I mean, they're just icons after all
 834 2012-10-14 18:28:12 KeTheR has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 835 2012-10-14 18:28:17 <wumpus> these are legal to use and distribute and don't carry any copyleft
 836 2012-10-14 18:28:20 <wumpus> exactly
 837 2012-10-14 18:28:21 jdnavarro has joined
 838 2012-10-14 18:28:23 jdnavarro_ has joined
 839 2012-10-14 18:28:24 <wumpus> with code it's different
 840 2012-10-14 18:28:40 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: but they're not free
 841 2012-10-14 18:28:57 <wumpus> I don't care... you can replace the icons without affecting anything else in the program
 842 2012-10-14 18:29:04 <Luke-Jr> GPL was already legal to use and distribute *and* free
 843 2012-10-14 18:29:06 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 844 2012-10-14 18:29:13 <wumpus> even black squares... that's as free as it gets
 845 2012-10-14 18:29:32 <sipa> let's not make more of a problem than it is
 846 2012-10-14 18:29:34 * Luke-Jr replaces it with CSS key encoded as black squares <.<
 847 2012-10-14 18:29:47 <sipa> we'll sure find a solution that suits everyone before the next release
 848 2012-10-14 18:29:49 <wumpus> well the guy thought that gpl would 'infect' the rest of the source code, I really don';t know
 849 2012-10-14 18:30:38 <Luke-Jr> I think GPL is a crummy license for icons, but it shouldn't cause problems for us and it's free.
 850 2012-10-14 18:30:38 <sipa> that's what i thought as well, but Luke-Jr and gmaxwell think otherwise - I won't claim I know better
 851 2012-10-14 18:30:47 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 852 2012-10-14 18:31:02 <graingert> why not ask the guy who made it for permission?
 853 2012-10-14 18:31:06 <wumpus> GPL really makes no sense for icons as there's no way to link against them
 854 2012-10-14 18:31:17 <MC1984> 2 hours of buildup and its all over in 7 minutes
 855 2012-10-14 18:31:18 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 856 2012-10-14 18:31:23 <Diablo-D3> GPL makes no sense for art assets
 857 2012-10-14 18:31:24 <MC1984> strangely familiar feeling
 858 2012-10-14 18:31:26 <graingert> wumpus: ^
 859 2012-10-14 18:31:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I meant CC-By in current versions without annotations.
 860 2012-10-14 18:32:02 <Luke-Jr> I bet if wumpus made a post on the forum asking for MIT-licensed icons to replace "x, y, and z", we'd get some.
 861 2012-10-14 18:32:21 <graingert> or CCO
 862 2012-10-14 18:32:22 <Luke-Jr> seems to be some artist-types on there
 863 2012-10-14 18:32:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 864 2012-10-14 18:33:04 <Luke-Jr> could probably even stipulate SVG for bonus :P
 865 2012-10-14 18:33:13 <wumpus> I've already tried that in the beginning, but never had much help from people on the forums
 866 2012-10-14 18:33:18 <Luke-Jr> :<
 867 2012-10-14 18:33:24 * sipa likes https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=107199.msg1173502
 868 2012-10-14 18:34:09 <wumpus> there was some guy that told me he'd design new icons, but he never did in the end
 869 2012-10-14 18:34:46 <graingert> wumpus: which icons you looking for?
 870 2012-10-14 18:34:48 <wumpus> lol sipa
 871 2012-10-14 18:35:17 <wumpus> graingert: anything that is not MIT or public domain in the assets-attribution.txt
 872 2012-10-14 18:35:19 <graingert> wumpus: a spec would be super nice
 873 2012-10-14 18:35:24 <graingert> for what the icon should be
 874 2012-10-14 18:35:24 <sipa> (i used that cartoon in my presentation at the london conference about blockchain pruning)
 875 2012-10-14 18:35:40 maaku has joined
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 877 2012-10-14 18:35:53 <graingert> wumpus: make a list of the icons that need new ones?
 878 2012-10-14 18:36:00 lggr has joined
 879 2012-10-14 18:36:14 <graingert> wumpus: rather than a list of icons that are fine, subtract from set of all icons
 880 2012-10-14 18:36:22 <wumpus> no, I'm not going to spend any work on this
 881 2012-10-14 18:36:28 <wumpus> IMO it's already fine
 882 2012-10-14 18:36:35 <graingert> Luke-Jr: ^
 883 2012-10-14 18:36:44 <graingert> Luke-Jr: have you got a spec of what icons are needed?
 884 2012-10-14 18:36:45 <wumpus> this is luke-jr versus xanatos
 885 2012-10-14 18:38:09 <wumpus> I only want to see the pull request when it's finished :)
 886 2012-10-14 18:38:13 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 887 2012-10-14 18:38:51 <Luke-Jr> src/qt/res/icons/connect*.png scripts/img/reload.xcf, src/qt/res/movies/update_spinner.mng
 888 2012-10-14 18:38:59 <Luke-Jr> those are the GPL
 889 2012-10-14 18:39:07 <wumpus> spinner is not GPL anymore
 890 2012-10-14 18:39:24 <wumpus> xanatos replaced it with something he generated with a script
 891 2012-10-14 18:39:38 root2_ has joined
 892 2012-10-14 18:39:54 <Luke-Jr> something non-free, so GPL if you reverted that
 893 2012-10-14 18:40:11 <wumpus> I haven't reverted it
 894 2012-10-14 18:40:22 <Luke-Jr> in any case, non-free is far worse than GPL
 895 2012-10-14 18:40:25 <wumpus> but it's the connection icons that are "non-free"
 896 2012-10-14 18:40:27 <wumpus> not the spinner
 897 2012-10-14 18:40:32 <Luke-Jr> the spinner is non-free too
 898 2012-10-14 18:41:06 <Luke-Jr> spinner allows redistribution under non-free restrictions, and doesn't allow modification or any other freedoms
 899 2012-10-14 18:41:40 <wumpus> it explicitly does
 900 2012-10-14 18:41:52 <wumpus> You are encouraged and legally entitled to copy and modify any animated GIF and APNG images, 
 901 2012-10-14 18:41:56 <wumpus> encouraged even
 902 2012-10-14 18:42:13 <Luke-Jr> ah, missed the first line
 903 2012-10-14 18:42:15 <wumpus> and you are encouraged but not obligated to attribute it
 904 2012-10-14 18:42:18 maaku has joined
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 906 2012-10-14 18:42:39 <Luke-Jr> but in any case, it forbids use/distribution/etc for other animated image generator applications
 907 2012-10-14 18:43:04 <wumpus> yes, so? bitcoin isn't and never will be an animated image generator application
 908 2012-10-14 18:43:12 <Luke-Jr> so that's non-free
 909 2012-10-14 18:43:35 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 910 2012-10-14 18:43:43 <sipa> well, one very common aspect in open-source licenses is that you can't discriminate
 911 2012-10-14 18:43:50 <wumpus> it's legal to use it, for us
 912 2012-10-14 18:43:55 <wumpus> that's all I care about
 913 2012-10-14 18:44:06 <Luke-Jr> it's legal to use the free GPL one that it replaced too
 914 2012-10-14 18:44:34 <sipa> anyway, i like the idea to let those who care about it come up with a solution :)
 915 2012-10-14 18:44:41 <jgarzik> sipa: +1
 916 2012-10-14 18:45:39 <jgarzik> sipa: did you ever get that high level ultraprune doc together?
 917 2012-10-14 18:45:42 <Luke-Jr> me too - but I don't think we should regress to non-free and push the work onto those who care about keeping the same freedom we had in prior releases
 918 2012-10-14 18:45:48 lggr has joined
 919 2012-10-14 18:45:56 <jgarzik> sipa: is the basic user experience a reindex, if binaries 0.7 is swapped out for 0.8?
 920 2012-10-14 18:46:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so submit a better one
 921 2012-10-14 18:46:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: the old one was better
 922 2012-10-14 18:46:20 <wumpus> no ,it was not
 923 2012-10-14 18:46:30 <wumpus> it was illegal according to some people
 924 2012-10-14 18:46:34 <Luke-Jr> it wasn't illegal
 925 2012-10-14 18:47:25 <Luke-Jr> I bet you can find someone who will claim anything is illegal, so subjective error is irrelevant
 926 2012-10-14 18:47:33 <wumpus> yes, that's my problem with it
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 928 2012-10-14 18:47:54 <sipa> well, afaik none of us are lawyers, so i don't think we should assess legality
 929 2012-10-14 18:48:45 <sipa> and a solution where every image is MIT-licensed or something compatible is certainly better than any of the two solutions we have now
 930 2012-10-14 18:49:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: sure, but the onus of getting that done should be on whoever wants to replace the GPL icons we had before :p
 931 2012-10-14 18:49:24 <wumpus> it's the only thing that's better than what we have now, I'll only replace the icons with something MIT or public domain licensed and also looks good
 932 2012-10-14 18:49:37 <sipa> jgarzik: basic user experience should be: "GUI pops up: you're using an older version database; we will convert this to the new format. this may take a while", and then a) moving block files b) equivalent of -reindex happens
 933 2012-10-14 18:50:03 <wumpus> I will not make any icon changes for license reasons anymore, apart from that
 934 2012-10-14 18:50:19 <jgarzik> sipa: the branch currently does this today?
 935 2012-10-14 18:50:23 <sipa> jgarzik: no
 936 2012-10-14 18:50:34 <sipa> jgarzik: it'll just see empty databases
 937 2012-10-14 18:50:40 <sipa> and start downloading from network
 938 2012-10-14 18:50:42 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: so now free software users are forced to stick to 0.7 or switch to another client?
 939 2012-10-14 18:50:48 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes
 940 2012-10-14 18:50:49 <jgarzik> sipa: ok
 941 2012-10-14 18:51:04 <jgarzik> sipa: just trying to understand what will testers see, if we pulled ultraprune tomorrow
 942 2012-10-14 18:51:08 <jgarzik> (hypothetically)
 943 2012-10-14 18:51:09 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: this is ridiculous
 944 2012-10-14 18:51:14 <jgarzik> not release, just pulled
 945 2012-10-14 18:51:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: if we don't get an objectively better solution than both of the currently existing ones by the time we want to do a new release (or release candidate), i'm in favor of reverting
 946 2012-10-14 18:51:39 <wumpus> I'm not
 947 2012-10-14 18:51:43 <sipa> but let's not blow the problem up right now
 948 2012-10-14 18:51:56 <andyrossy> 404
 949 2012-10-14 18:52:03 <jgarzik> sipa: I presume bitcoind would see empty blockchain database+index?  And I presume wallet is unchanged, still on BDB?
 950 2012-10-14 18:52:04 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 951 2012-10-14 18:52:11 <wumpus> I don't want to change things around all the time for petty bickering
 952 2012-10-14 18:52:31 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, peers.dat and wallet.dat are unchanged and freely interchangable between 0.7 and ultraprune
 953 2012-10-14 18:52:39 <jgarzik> ok
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 955 2012-10-14 18:55:07 <sipa> jgarzik: i've created two more branches: coinhash and ultraprune_coinhash
 956 2012-10-14 18:55:32 <sipa> they can be used to calculate a hash of the txouts and tx metadata implies by either an ultraprune db or a current db
 957 2012-10-14 18:55:50 <sipa> and the hash should be identical (and afaik, is, even after importing a chain full of reorgs)
 958 2012-10-14 18:56:34 <sipa> which is about the strongest proof of equality i can provide
 959 2012-10-14 18:57:01 <jgarzik> sipa: good stuff
 960 2012-10-14 18:57:38 <jgarzik> sipa: just need to release 0.7.1 and get an explicit ultraprune ACK from gavin, and get it pulled
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 962 2012-10-14 18:59:13 <sipa> what i still want: doc/ultraprune.txt which explains the idea and low-level serialization format, automatic consistency checks at startup (even a fully validating one would be possible, as strong as actual connection, limited by RAM), and some GUI stuff to make the transition easier
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 964 2012-10-14 19:00:53 <sipa> i'll add some more code comments today still
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 966 2012-10-14 19:02:28 <midnightmagic> sipa: can a rehash be triggered via the rpc interface, or is it a full-state hash including history?
 967 2012-10-14 19:02:47 <midnightmagic> oh, a doc, i'll go read that.
 968 2012-10-14 19:03:14 <sipa> midnightmagic: coinhash has an RPC which you give a block hash, and it calculates the coinset hash at that point in time
 969 2012-10-14 19:03:35 <sipa> ultraprune_coinhash has an RPC which gives you current block hash + current coinset hash
 970 2012-10-14 19:03:44 lggr has joined
 971 2012-10-14 19:03:46 <midnightmagic> sipa: how long does the hash take? have you done any benchmarking?
 972 2012-10-14 19:04:01 <sipa> in ultraprune a few seconds, on HEAD a few minutes
 973 2012-10-14 19:04:02 <midnightmagic> sipa: Also, that is f'ing awesome.
 974 2012-10-14 19:04:27 <sipa> (that's not because ultraprune is so much faster or anything, just because its database only stores the current state, so it's much smaller)
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 977 2012-10-14 19:05:24 <midnightmagic> sipa: in the event I get a mismatch with someone else, is there some kind of debugging or dumping facility in it, or planned?
 978 2012-10-14 19:05:54 <midnightmagic> sipa: Did I mention that is f'ing awesome?
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 980 2012-10-14 19:06:33 <sipa> i suppose a correct combination of -checklevel and -checkblocks should get you to do a verification which detects the inconsistency, and rewinds back
 981 2012-10-14 19:06:57 <sipa> though if you need to go back very far, it may take a lot of memory
 982 2012-10-14 19:07:04 <sipa> (not implemented yet, by the way)
 983 2012-10-14 19:07:04 <midnightmagic> sipa: is it a linear or is it a tree hash?
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 985 2012-10-14 19:07:35 <sipa> the coinhash is just SHA512 of every transaction's txouts + metadata, added together, and then SHA256'd
 986 2012-10-14 19:07:38 <bcb> how do I know which public key in my bitcoind to dump the private key
 987 2012-10-14 19:07:39 <sipa> so it's linear
 988 2012-10-14 19:07:57 <bcb> if  i want to import the privatekey (with funds) into another account or bitcoind
 989 2012-10-14 19:08:13 <sipa> bcb: dumpprivkey
 990 2012-10-14 19:08:14 <midnightmagic> sipa: in-order of their appearance in the blocks then?
 991 2012-10-14 19:08:27 <sipa> midnightmagic: the nice thing about addition is that it's commutative
 992 2012-10-14 19:08:32 <sipa> midnightmagic: so the order doesn't matter
 993 2012-10-14 19:08:45 <bcb> sipa: right.  I did that and when I upaded the private key there was no value in it
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 995 2012-10-14 19:08:55 <midnightmagic> sipa: oh i didn't comprehend the 'added together' part.
 996 2012-10-14 19:09:15 <sipa> midnightmagic: by added i mean operator+, over uint64's
 997 2012-10-14 19:09:38 <sipa> bcb: bitcoind will send change to other internal addresses when doing transactions
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1000 2012-10-14 19:11:11 CodesInChaos has joined
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1002 2012-10-14 19:13:47 <midnightmagic> sipa: is the add+meta across the entire tx set, or is it sha'd per-block?
1003 2012-10-14 19:14:07 <midnightmagic> sipa: Maybe I'll go read the code and stop bugging you. :)
1004 2012-10-14 19:14:15 <sipa> SHA512'd per-tx, added together for everything, then SHA256'd
1005 2012-10-14 19:14:23 <bcb> sipa: is is possible to getnewaddress, move existing funds to this new address, dumpprivkey and import into and other bitcoind?
1006 2012-10-14 19:14:49 <sipa> bcb: yes, but you'll potentially lose things that are sent afterwards to your old addresses
1007 2012-10-14 19:14:55 <sipa> though you can import those too, of course
1008 2012-10-14 19:15:07 <midnightmagic> sipa: :-) I'm sorry I'm asking redundant questions. That of course is what you said above. doh
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1011 2012-10-14 19:26:22 <jgarzik> sipa: sounds good (RE doc/ultraprune.txt)
1012 2012-10-14 19:26:44 <jgarzik> sipa: about to actually _use_ ultraprune for some testing, and wanted to make sure it's ready for general use
1013 2012-10-14 19:28:44 <sipa> i've only actually used it to mine with
1014 2012-10-14 19:29:01 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1015 2012-10-14 19:29:06 <sipa> and did a few transactons as well, but not too many
1016 2012-10-14 19:29:06 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1019 2012-10-14 19:34:21 <jgarzik> tcatm: would you be willing to add bootstrap.dat to http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/ ?  it is a 193000-height, unchanging blockchain data file.
1020 2012-10-14 19:34:44 JZavala has joined
1021 2012-10-14 19:35:21 <tcatm> jgarzik: How does that work? Where can I find it?
1022 2012-10-14 19:36:10 <jgarzik> tcatm: version 0.7.1 will automatically import any blockchain data with the filename GetDataDir() / "bootstrap.dat"
1023 2012-10-14 19:36:48 <jgarzik> tcatm: easiest download method is bittorrent, but I can scp it, if you want to work up a temporary login
1024 2012-10-14 19:37:09 <jgarzik> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0bb0521942f586ed96203c6f4d136324756f8a9a&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80&tr=udp://tracker.istole.it:80
1025 2012-10-14 19:37:28 <tcatm> oh so we are now bootstrapping using torrent? :)
1026 2012-10-14 19:37:43 <sipa> Potentially.
1027 2012-10-14 19:37:48 <jgarzik> tcatm: it's a side project, not official/primary: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.0
1028 2012-10-14 19:38:23 <vazakl> bootstrap.dat is awesome
1029 2012-10-14 19:38:24 <jgarzik> tcatm: bootstrap.dat only changes at each checkpoint (currently 193000).  Thus, it remains largely static and easy to seed.
1030 2012-10-14 19:38:30 <vazakl> saved me a bunch of time
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1032 2012-10-14 19:39:53 <vazakl> strap in
1033 2012-10-14 19:40:37 <tcatm> Interesting. I'll seed it from a few boxes and add it to the blockchain snapshots.
1034 2012-10-14 19:40:46 <jgarzik> tcatm: thanks!
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1046 2012-10-14 20:03:19 <bcb> i'm trying to import a privkey from 0.7 bitcoind into blockchain info and getting "Compressed private keys are currently not supported"
1047 2012-10-14 20:03:35 <bcb> what is a compressed private key.  Is that new to 0.7?
1048 2012-10-14 20:04:57 <sipa> technically, private keys cannot be compressed
1049 2012-10-14 20:05:09 <sipa> but there are two types of public keys, compressed and uncompressed
1050 2012-10-14 20:05:47 <sipa> and serialized private keys (as produced by dumpprivkey) contain a flag to tell the importer that the associated private key is to be the compressed one
1051 2012-10-14 20:05:58 <sipa> it's been in the reference code since 0.6.0
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1056 2012-10-14 20:19:49 <tcatm> jgarzik: It's up. http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/bootstrap.dat
1057 2012-10-14 20:20:06 <jgarzik> tnx
1058 2012-10-14 20:20:34 <jgarzik> tcatm: it should only change once every 3-6 months, with the updating of src/checkpoint.cpp
1059 2012-10-14 20:21:14 Matt_von_Mises has joined
1060 2012-10-14 20:21:16 <jgarzik> tcatm: further, for the torrent... it is an append-only file, so simply switching out the .torrent file for a new one means you already have 80%+ of the file
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1062 2012-10-14 20:22:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Are there any invalid blocks used for testing with valid hashes, so I can test my block-chain validator without needing to disable the PoW check?
1063 2012-10-14 20:24:33 <tcatm> flip a random bit within the blockheader?
1064 2012-10-14 20:24:56 jdnavarro_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1065 2012-10-14 20:24:59 <Luke-Jr> that would break the PoW
1066 2012-10-14 20:25:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1067 2012-10-14 20:25:51 <gmaxwell> I assume bluematts feeder tester stuff can generate that sort of thing.
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1072 2012-10-14 20:29:37 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: What is this "feeder tester stuff"?
1073 2012-10-14 20:30:22 <Matt_von_Mises> I could generate valid hashes myself… if I could achieve a better hash rate.
1074 2012-10-14 20:31:29 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: testnet blocks shouldn't be too hard to generate
1075 2012-10-14 20:31:30 <Luke-Jr> Matt_von_Mises: if you setup a pool to mine such blocks, I'm sure you will find miners to donate hashing
1076 2012-10-14 20:31:49 <Luke-Jr> and yeah, I'd make them based on the testnet "root" blocks
1077 2012-10-14 20:32:02 Diapolo has left ()
1078 2012-10-14 20:32:15 <sipa> if you can create a test suite that's usable for several clients, and need hashrate for that, i can point +- 1 GH/s to you
1079 2012-10-14 20:32:22 <Luke-Jr> (I'm sure because I know when I needed hashing to test things in the past, people helped)
1080 2012-10-14 20:33:08 <Luke-Jr> OTOH, if you wait until ASICs take over and block subsidy halves… lots of GPU miners idle ;)
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1082 2012-10-14 20:33:29 <Matt_von_Mises> I still need to make my code work on the testnet. I should perhaps do that before anything else.
1083 2012-10-14 20:33:55 <sipa> that sounds like the way to go - it's exactly what the testnet was created for
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1085 2012-10-14 20:34:46 <Matt_von_Mises> Luke-Jr, sipa: I might create a list of blocks and ask for computing power to generate the hashes from willing people and it would be useful for testing multiple implementations then.
1086 2012-10-14 20:34:46 bcb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1087 2012-10-14 20:34:47 <gmaxwell> Yea, a useful thing to do would be to fork testnet for this. I'd gladly give you private keys that I used to have testnet btc on...
1088 2012-10-14 20:37:07 <Matt_von_Mises> So basically I can do the same tests but for the testnet and it would be easier to make the blocks for? Is the maximum target for the testnet higher then?
1089 2012-10-14 20:37:16 lggr has joined
1090 2012-10-14 20:37:33 <Matt_von_Mises> I've not looked into the testnet properly yet so I don't know. I know it has some different difficulty rules.
1091 2012-10-14 20:37:49 <gmaxwell> You can mine testnet without the difficulty going up, effectively.
1092 2012-10-14 20:38:08 <sipa> in particular it has a rule that allows creating a difficulty-1 block if the previous block is older than 20 minutes
1093 2012-10-14 20:38:56 <gmaxwell> heh. someplace I have a 2016 block testnet fork that violates the 'time can't go back before the checkpoint rule. I guess I should find that.
1094 2012-10-14 20:39:47 <Matt_von_Mises> if (fTestNet && nTime > nTargetSpacing*2)
1095 2012-10-14 20:39:47 <Matt_von_Mises>         return bnProofOfWorkLimit.GetCompact();
1096 2012-10-14 20:40:22 <Matt_von_Mises> Looks like if the difference is over two hours it reverts to the highest target, which is still the same as the production network.
1097 2012-10-14 20:40:46 <sipa> nTargetSpacing is 10 minutes
1098 2012-10-14 20:41:00 <sipa> and i don't see why that is the same as the production network? (highest target == difficulty 1)
1099 2012-10-14 20:41:06 <Matt_von_Mises> I meant 20 minutes sorry.
1100 2012-10-14 20:41:30 <Matt_von_Mises> static CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 32);
1101 2012-10-14 20:41:36 <Matt_von_Mises> That is the highest target right?
1102 2012-10-14 20:41:44 <Matt_von_Mises> 0x1D00FFFF I seem to remember
1103 2012-10-14 20:41:55 <Matt_von_Mises> Isn't it the same for both networks then?
1104 2012-10-14 20:42:00 <sipa> yes, it is
1105 2012-10-14 20:42:36 <Matt_von_Mises> Well to create the test blocks, it can be done on the production network with a difficulty of 1.
1106 2012-10-14 20:42:45 <sipa> is that a problem?
1107 2012-10-14 20:42:53 <sipa> with 10 MH/s, you can make a block in 7 minutes
1108 2012-10-14 20:43:05 <Matt_von_Mises> By production network I mean a fork from the genesis block.
1109 2012-10-14 20:43:31 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: What I mean is that the testnet doesn't help much here.
1110 2012-10-14 20:43:39 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1111 2012-10-14 20:43:52 <sipa> if you want to fork the production network after the genesis block, no
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1114 2012-10-14 20:48:57 <Matt_von_Mises> I've listed some of the blocks that would be needed for testing. I'd need at least 121 blocks which would include 100 blocks needed to test outputs. Though gmaxwell, you said "I'd gladly give you private keys that I used to have testnet btc on" I suppose by forking the testnet at an appropriate point, I can use those private keys to test outputs. Though it would require all the data for the testnet chain at that point which might end up being co
1115 2012-10-14 20:51:25 <gmaxwell> you got cut off at co.
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1117 2012-10-14 20:51:49 <gmaxwell> the testnet chain is quite small, and you really want the first 500 or so blocks anyways, as they have all the 'pass' test cases we have.
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1120 2012-10-14 20:52:18 <gmaxwell> There is also a point where I added a transaction with a 100,000 TNBTC fee.
1121 2012-10-14 20:52:18 <Matt_von_Mises> There are a lot of "co"s in that text. :-)
1122 2012-10-14 20:52:25 <gmaxwell> sorry
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1124 2012-10-14 20:52:25 <gmaxwell> t that point which might end up being co
1125 2012-10-14 20:52:48 <gmaxwell> So you could for right before that block and mine 100 valid and use those coins.
1126 2012-10-14 20:52:53 <Matt_von_Mises> …complicated or impractical to code into the tests such that generating hashes for 100 blocks would actually be easier to accomplish.
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1128 2012-10-14 20:53:28 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: to generate the hashes so that your node will mine these invalid blocks, and you just ask people to mine against it.
1129 2012-10-14 20:53:37 da2ce7_d has joined
1130 2012-10-14 20:53:42 <gmaxwell> You can crank out 100 blocks in a few minutes with just a couple GH/s on it.
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1133 2012-10-14 20:56:26 <jgarzik> yah, holler if you want my testnet3 wallet including private keys
1134 2012-10-14 20:56:50 <jgarzik> 99% generation transactions, if that's relevant
1135 2012-10-14 20:58:08 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: you can also test by disabling the difficulty checks... so that you can do trial runs super fast. And once you're happy with the tests you ask people to mine for you to mine them at a real difficulty so they work against unmodified software.
1136 2012-10-14 20:58:35 <sipa> jgarzik: "holler" ?
1137 2012-10-14 20:58:43 <gmaxwell> Yell.
1138 2012-10-14 20:58:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik is apparently from the south. :P
1139 2012-10-14 20:59:12 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell, jgarzik: Thanks for offering the keys. Though I need to test coinbase maturity and generate at least 100 hashes anyway. In that case I can just use the 5000000000 satoshis from the coinbase for further testing.
1140 2012-10-14 20:59:26 <gmaxwell> True.
1141 2012-10-14 20:59:35 <jgarzik> holla
1142 2012-10-14 21:00:07 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: though I'd expect you'd create 100 blocks with the same prev... otherwise you won't hit some tests because they'll be rejected after it rejects the first in your fork.
1143 2012-10-14 21:00:28 <gmaxwell> so you'd need to do 100 valid blocks to get coins to spend, then you could create 100 forks.
1144 2012-10-14 21:00:58 <gmaxwell> If you do all your bad blocks in a row you probably won't get good coverage.
1145 2012-10-14 21:01:19 <Luke-Jr> Matt_von_Mises: to get started, you may wish to check out the mining tests I wrote for bitcoind; it has a "compressed" 100+ blocks to get started from
1146 2012-10-14 21:01:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1148 2012-10-14 21:07:48 <Matt_von_Mises> Luke-Jr: Yes I'm sure I could use those! I'll take a look next week. Unfortunately for now I've got to go. I'll come back once I've figured out everything including the blocks I'll need generating. Bye and thanks for the input everyone.
1149 2012-10-14 21:08:10 <Luke-Jr> ttyl
1150 2012-10-14 21:09:39 Matt_von_Mises has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1151 2012-10-14 21:10:00 <sipa> woah - git automatically gc's?
1152 2012-10-14 21:10:05 <sipa> never seen it do that
1153 2012-10-14 21:10:50 <Luke-Jr> yeah, annoys me since gc fails on my bitcoin repo
1154 2012-10-14 21:11:01 <Luke-Jr> so it tries every time
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1156 2012-10-14 21:11:19 <sipa> fails? :o
1157 2012-10-14 21:11:21 <Luke-Jr> I also don't want to gc, so I can look up "dead" commits if I want
1158 2012-10-14 21:11:32 asa1024 has quit (Quit: asa1024)
1159 2012-10-14 21:11:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, it aborts because there are "so many to prune!"
1160 2012-10-14 21:11:40 <sipa> ha
1161 2012-10-14 21:11:47 <Luke-Jr> I presume it thinks there must be some mistake :P
1162 2012-10-14 21:12:00 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure it's because I have numerous revisions of every pullreq in my tree
1163 2012-10-14 21:12:03 <Luke-Jr> s/tree/repo
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1165 2012-10-14 21:15:12 <midnightmagic> also "holler" is used east-coast and east-central english-speaking canada.
1166 2012-10-14 21:15:42 <midnightmagic> it was popular amongst older-generation people too
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1169 2012-10-14 21:28:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I wonder how retarded vala is
1170 2012-10-14 21:28:58 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: because vala almost does a lot of what I want
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1174 2012-10-14 21:35:18 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: then again, vala does a lot of shit no one wants
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1183 2012-10-14 21:46:51 <jgarzik> git automatically gc's if a certain setting is enabled, and certain limits are exceeded
1184 2012-10-14 21:47:24 <jgarzik> "git config --global gc.auto 0" disables
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1197 2012-10-14 22:15:12 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: thanks!
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1203 2012-10-14 22:19:00 <jgarzik> rofl
1204 2012-10-14 22:19:11 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: you're a valued, crazy developer
1205 2012-10-14 22:19:33 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: what? :<
1206 2012-10-14 22:20:28 <Luke-Jr> am I wrong that we'd get in trouble for the same things SF would?
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1209 2012-10-14 22:26:04 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: We only have cryptography for authentication; see http://www.bis.doc.gov/encryption/question2.htm
1210 2012-10-14 22:26:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: wait, SF is blocking ALL downloads because of crypto export rules?
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1212 2012-10-14 22:27:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Moverover, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States  there has been _no_ enforcement against open source software in modern times.
1213 2012-10-14 22:27:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yep, thats my understanding!
1214 2012-10-14 22:27:19 <Luke-Jr> that's pretty annoying
1215 2012-10-14 22:27:24 <copumpkin> ridiculous
1216 2012-10-14 22:27:51 <EasyAt> Hey, so I sent some BTC to someone a few days ago while my client was syncing.  It hasn't had any verifications.  Is there a way to rebroadcast or to have my wallet not remove the BTC from the balance?
1217 2012-10-14 22:28:27 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: just leave your client running; if it's still valid, it will rebroadcast randomly
1218 2012-10-14 22:28:27 <sipa> EasyAt: your client rebroadcasts unconfirmed transactions approximately once every half hour
1219 2012-10-14 22:28:37 <gmaxwell> EasyAt: by syncing... was it syncing because you restored a backup?
1220 2012-10-14 22:28:55 <EasyAt> No, I was just days behind... hadn't opened it for awhile
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1222 2012-10-14 22:29:17 <sipa> EasyAt: are you currently up-to-date?
1223 2012-10-14 22:29:19 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1224 2012-10-14 22:29:20 <gribble> 203295
1225 2012-10-14 22:29:26 <EasyAt> But I was thinking, that since I had made paymentrs from the same wallet on a diff computer, perhaps a double spend could have occured?
1226 2012-10-14 22:29:29 <EasyAt> sipa: yes
1227 2012-10-14 22:29:36 <Luke-Jr> …
1228 2012-10-14 22:29:38 <sipa> EasyAt: in that case, very likely
1229 2012-10-14 22:29:48 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: Bitcoin-Qt and bitcoind don't support using the same wallet from multiple computers
1230 2012-10-14 22:29:57 <Luke-Jr> that's begging for trouble period
1231 2012-10-14 22:29:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: here is sourceforge's statement, http://sourceforge.net/blog/clarifying-sourceforgenets-denial-of-site-access-for-certain-persons-in-accordance-with-us-law/
1232 2012-10-14 22:30:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: they annoying don't actually say what laws they're trying to comply with!
1233 2012-10-14 22:30:19 <EasyAt> Yes, I agree.  I'm a bad dog
1234 2012-10-14 22:30:52 <gmaxwell> Welp, no, you're a screwed dog. Good luck! :P
1235 2012-10-14 22:30:54 <Luke-Jr> EasyAt: to remove it from your tx list, backup your current wallet.dat and restore the backup from before you sent it.
1236 2012-10-14 22:31:05 <EasyAt> Luke-Jr: ty, I was thinking that
1237 2012-10-14 22:31:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: salvagewallet!
1238 2012-10-14 22:31:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I've only heard bad things about that so far <.<
1239 2012-10-14 22:31:29 <gmaxwell> But if you have a backup which is new enough to not lose anything but old enough to not have the txn, then that works.
1240 2012-10-14 22:31:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: The only thing I saw was someone trying to use it _on_ a file with a bad sector, and yea, it didn't survive that. :P
1241 2012-10-14 22:31:59 <EasyAt> Welp, thanks guys.  I can proceed with my life
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1248 2012-10-14 22:46:29 <MC1984> does the subsidy halve on exactly block 210000
1249 2012-10-14 22:47:09 <sipa> block 210000 (which is the 210001th block produced) will have a subsidy of 25 BTC
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