1 2012-10-15 00:00:22 <bcb> how is it possible that the total of getbalance is greater then the sum of listaccounts?
   2 2012-10-15 00:01:09 <jgarzik> bcb: it's a bit technical
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   4 2012-10-15 00:01:17 <jgarzik> bcb: getbalance gives you the total of all coins in the wallet
   5 2012-10-15 00:01:49 <jgarzik> bcb: the accounting system is layered on top of that, a thin layer that sorts the coins into various buckets (accounts)
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   7 2012-10-15 00:02:26 <jgarzik> bcb: so if you rigorously use the accounting system, it will stay accurate
   8 2012-10-15 00:03:00 <jgarzik> bcb: but occasionally you might 'sendtoaddress' rather than 'sendfrom', or some other action that subverts the accounting system layer
   9 2012-10-15 00:03:43 <Lachesis> wouldn't that decrease balance without touching the accounts, making getbalance < sum(listaccounts) ?
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  15 2012-10-15 00:06:57 <bcb> jgarzik:where do the coins come from when you use sentoaddress?
  16 2012-10-15 00:07:31 <gmaxwell> Your wallet.
  17 2012-10-15 00:07:38 <jgarzik> Lachesis: indeed
  18 2012-10-15 00:07:50 <jgarzik> My brain read "greater than" as "different than"
  19 2012-10-15 00:07:55 <jgarzik> bcb: ^
  20 2012-10-15 00:08:23 <gmaxwell> The account system doesn't make the coins belong to an account, it's an accounting layer.. like marking in your checkbook what funds you spent on food or gas or got from sales or donations.
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  22 2012-10-15 00:09:27 <Lachesis> i know coins sent to an address generated with getaccountaddress will go into an account, but i thought everything else was debited from or credited to the "" account
  23 2012-10-15 00:09:43 <bcb> I guess I should ask which account do the coins come from when you use sendtoaddress?
  24 2012-10-15 00:09:51 <bcb> ""?
  25 2012-10-15 00:10:01 <gmaxwell> "" yes.
  26 2012-10-15 00:10:30 <gmaxwell> Lachesis: you can sendfrom to pick the source account for marking the debt.
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  28 2012-10-15 00:11:28 <Lachesis> so then how can the sum(listaccounts) != getbalance?
  29 2012-10-15 00:11:34 <Lachesis> since "" is in listaccounts?
  30 2012-10-15 00:11:52 <Lachesis> on my current wallet, they are equal, but i always use sendfrom and getaccountaddress
  31 2012-10-15 00:13:06 <bcb> so if I want to get my "accounts" back in order how do is balance the accounts?
  32 2012-10-15 00:13:20 <bcb> I'm moved all the coin back to "" to undo the negative balance
  33 2012-10-15 00:13:40 <bcb> however not the get balance is still greater then the "" account
  34 2012-10-15 00:13:47 <bcb> *now*
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  37 2012-10-15 00:19:04 <bcb> where are the missing coins?
  38 2012-10-15 00:19:50 <Tril> listunspent - probably in change addresses..
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  40 2012-10-15 00:21:14 <gmaxwell> Tril: no.
  41 2012-10-15 00:21:21 <gmaxwell> bcb: have you imported any keys?
  42 2012-10-15 00:21:35 <gmaxwell> Or used that wallet on multiple systems concurrently?
  43 2012-10-15 00:21:36 <bcb> yes many
  44 2012-10-15 00:21:50 <bcb> i've imported and exported keys
  45 2012-10-15 00:21:55 <gmaxwell> yea, so may have missing funds from unidentified change.
  46 2012-10-15 00:22:28 <bcb> I was trying to move confirmed coins to a new address, dumpprivkey and import into another bitcoind
  47 2012-10-15 00:22:31 <gmaxwell> The definition of confirmed used by the varrious commands is different too. IIRC one way measures unconfirmed change an one doesn't.
  48 2012-10-15 00:22:31 <bcb> is that possible
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  50 2012-10-15 00:25:15 <bcb> "unidentified Change"?
  51 2012-10-15 00:25:20 <bcb> how do I prevent that
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  53 2012-10-15 00:28:00 <bcb> gmaxwell: funds are not missing.  that are just not showing up in any account
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  55 2012-10-15 00:28:15 <bcb> I think I imported empty keys mostly
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  62 2012-10-15 00:40:13 <bcb> is there a limit to the number of addresses you can import into bicoind?
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  64 2012-10-15 00:40:51 <Diablo-D3> yes.
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 217 2012-10-15 04:59:15 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: "ragequit"  new phrase, I like it
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 234 2012-10-15 05:29:35 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: dude, thats like a decade old phrase
 235 2012-10-15 05:29:51 <Diablo-D3> and the action it describes is like a million years old
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 237 2012-10-15 05:31:32 * midnightmagic wonders how you could live through multiplayer doom/quake/unreal tournament without hearing it at least once.
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 239 2012-10-15 05:34:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 240 2012-10-15 05:34:36 <Diablo-D3> I think ut even has that as a built in quit reason or some shit
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 264 2012-10-15 06:16:15 <jgarzik> games? what is that?
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 266 2012-10-15 06:17:53 <Luke-Jr> now if only we could get Diablo-D3 to ragequit #bitcoin-dev …
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 285 2012-10-15 06:39:04 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: you big meanie.
 286 2012-10-15 06:40:19 <Luke-Jr> :p
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 360 2012-10-15 08:54:06 <Guest12345> i need some tester's for my pool
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 378 2012-10-15 09:21:25 <t7> i dont trust you
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 408 2012-10-15 10:11:03 <ThomasV> while bitcoind is catching up with the blockchain, it seems to be checking mempool transactions (calling FetchInputs). isn't it a waste of time?
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 464 2012-10-15 11:23:54 <jgarzik> ThomasV: sometimes
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 497 2012-10-15 12:09:29 <ThomasV> jgarzik: I'm asking because it's been extremely slow
 498 2012-10-15 12:09:47 <ThomasV> and the log is full of that
 499 2012-10-15 12:11:17 <sipa> ThomasV: if you're interested, you can try my "ultraprune" branch; it should be much faster
 500 2012-10-15 12:11:48 <ThomasV> sipa: it prunes spent coins?
 501 2012-10-15 12:11:56 <sipa> yes and no
 502 2012-10-15 12:12:09 <ThomasV> I don't want that, it's for my electrum server
 503 2012-10-15 12:12:23 <sipa> what does it need?
 504 2012-10-15 12:12:42 <ThomasV> it needs all the blockchain
 505 2012-10-15 12:12:48 <sipa> it keeps the entire blockchain
 506 2012-10-15 12:13:07 <ThomasV> so, in which way does it differ?
 507 2012-10-15 12:13:10 <sipa> and it is fully RPC compatible with 0.7, except for getrawtransaction
 508 2012-10-15 12:13:36 <sipa> it keeps an explicit database with just the unspent transaction outputs, in addition to the block chain
 509 2012-10-15 12:13:44 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 510 2012-10-15 12:13:47 <sipa> (it doesn't have blkindex.dat anymore though)
 511 2012-10-15 12:14:05 <ThomasV> what is in blkindex.dat?
 512 2012-10-15 12:14:12 <sipa> the txid -> diskpos map
 513 2012-10-15 12:14:17 <sipa> and where each coin is spent
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 516 2012-10-15 12:14:58 <ThomasV> sipa: does it have identical blk*.dat files ?
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 518 2012-10-15 12:15:25 <sipa> yes
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 520 2012-10-15 12:15:43 <sipa> well, same format; they're named differently, in a subdirectory, and smaller
 521 2012-10-15 12:15:52 <sipa> but the encoding format is exactly the same
 522 2012-10-15 12:16:08 <ThomasV> oh, that means I'll need to mess with abe
 523 2012-10-15 12:16:37 * Luke-Jr wonders if xanatos is seriously making an issue out of the requirement to include a copy of the GPL text with the program, sigh
 524 2012-10-15 12:16:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm really not convinced he's wrong
 525 2012-10-15 12:17:06 <sipa> (though i certainly don't know for sure)
 526 2012-10-15 12:17:26 <Luke-Jr> no, we do technically need to include a copy of the license itself, but it feels a bit pedantic in this case
 527 2012-10-15 12:17:33 <sipa> apart from that
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 531 2012-10-15 12:18:29 <sipa> the GPL requires that anyone who receives the binary has the same rights as the author; if someone takes the source now, modifies it under the MIT license, and produces a binary from that, and distributes it without source, he is not violating the MIT license, but he is violating the GPL license of the icon (in the assumption that using the icon makes bitcoin a derived work)
 532 2012-10-15 12:18:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, that is true
 533 2012-10-15 12:18:50 <sipa> and our MIT license does not guarantee that someone can't do that
 534 2012-10-15 12:19:06 <Luke-Jr> the GPL doesn't require other code to guarantee that.
 535 2012-10-15 12:19:20 <Luke-Jr> it just requires actual compliance with that as long as the GPL'd code is there.
 536 2012-10-15 12:19:31 leotreasure has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 537 2012-10-15 12:19:41 <sipa> well, that is where it gets fuzzy
 538 2012-10-15 12:19:56 <sipa> but i'd rather not leaving it up to lawyers to decide
 539 2012-10-15 12:20:38 <ThomasV> I don't know what the limiting factor is for my bitcoind catching up with the blockchain, but it does not seem to be cpu: I am at 0% usage most of the time, and sometimes it jumps to 30% for a little while (this coincides with blocks being added according to the log)
 540 2012-10-15 12:20:56 <ThomasV> but still, most of the time isz spent at 0% usage
 541 2012-10-15 12:21:04 <ThomasV> or 1%
 542 2012-10-15 12:21:29 <ThomasV> so it could be disk access, or download speed
 543 2012-10-15 12:21:31 <sipa> ThomasV: the limiting factor is BDB\
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 545 2012-10-15 12:21:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: under the GPL, the copyright holder would be obliged to warn us and give us time to comply by releasing source before any legal action could be taken
 546 2012-10-15 12:21:44 <ThomasV> sipa: care to explain?
 547 2012-10-15 12:21:57 <sipa> ThomasV: BDB is not really efficient
 548 2012-10-15 12:21:57 <Luke-Jr> worst case scenario, we rush an emergency "some idiot complained about a grey area on our icons" release
 549 2012-10-15 12:22:18 <sipa> ThomasV: it continuously needs to rewrite large parts of the database, and does tons of synchronous writes
 550 2012-10-15 12:22:22 <Luke-Jr> their*
 551 2012-10-15 12:22:34 <ThomasV> sipa: why is it used then?
 552 2012-10-15 12:22:40 <sipa> ThomasV: because satoshi chose it
 553 2012-10-15 12:22:46 <sipa> ThomasV: in 0.8 we'll switch to leveldb
 554 2012-10-15 12:23:04 <ThomasV> is there a branch where leveldb is used?
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 556 2012-10-15 12:23:34 <sipa> yes, ultraprune :)
 557 2012-10-15 12:23:51 <ThomasV> :)
 558 2012-10-15 12:24:10 <ThomasV> sipa: bu that means your blk*.dat will differ
 559 2012-10-15 12:24:16 <sipa> ThomasV: *NO*
 560 2012-10-15 12:24:21 <ThomasV> why not?
 561 2012-10-15 12:24:35 <sipa> the blk* files are just a concatenation of blocks
 562 2012-10-15 12:24:44 <sipa> raw, directly to disk, no index or database
 563 2012-10-15 12:24:51 <ThomasV> oh ok
 564 2012-10-15 12:24:59 <ThomasV> so it is database agnostic
 565 2012-10-15 12:25:03 <sipa> (except for blkindex.dat, which is a BDB database file like wallet.dat and formerly addr.dat)
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 567 2012-10-15 12:26:18 <sipa> ThomasV: on my VPS, sync from scratch used to take over a day (it has very high I/O latency)
 568 2012-10-15 12:26:26 <sipa> with leveldb/ultraprune it's more like 1-2 hours
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 575 2012-10-15 12:27:52 <ThomasV> sipa: nice. but why is leveldb tied to ultraprune? these seem to be two distinct developments
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 577 2012-10-15 12:28:14 <sipa> ThomasV: leveldb was implemented separatedly by mike
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 582 2012-10-15 12:28:33 <sipa> ThomasV: with a compatibility layer to make it behave like BDB
 583 2012-10-15 12:29:04 <sipa> as i rewrote the validation engine anyway, i did so with leveldb's model in mind, so after rebasing it, no compatibility layer was needed anymore
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 585 2012-10-15 12:29:42 <jgarzik> sipa: maybe it's confusing that "blk*dat" refers to both BDB index and blockchain flat files
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 587 2012-10-15 12:30:41 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah, in ultraprune it's blocks/*, blktree/* and coins/*
 588 2012-10-15 12:30:55 <jgarzik> ThomasV: leveldb and ultraprune (bitcoin db index change) are indeed two distinct changes, but it makes sense to merge them at the same time.  Everybody has to upgrade...  no sense in putting users through a BDB->leveldb upgrade, and _then_ another upgrade to radically change the bitcoin db index formats.
 589 2012-10-15 12:31:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: speaking of licensing, we're also not conformant with the LGPL. We ship LGPLed things, so we must include a copy of the license. I'm also unclear on what we need to do wrt the static linking. Closed source apps static linkers technically have to ship a relinkable set of object files so the lgpl parts can be replaced and are also obligated to offer the source for the LGPL things we link. But since we're not a closed app ourselves I'm
 590 2012-10-15 12:31:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: ourselves I'm [...]
 591 2012-10-15 12:31:35 <jgarzik> ThomasV: BDB is a big part of currently-slow network sync'ing
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 594 2012-10-15 12:31:44 <gmaxwell> app ourselves I'm unsure of how much we should be doing there.
 595 2012-10-15 12:32:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yeah, I think we can just leave that problem for whoever wants to close it
 596 2012-10-15 12:32:03 <jgarzik> On licenses:  License conformance is the important bit
 597 2012-10-15 12:32:09 <jgarzik> shipping the text is optional but useful
 598 2012-10-15 12:32:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well BDB made much less of a difference after ultraprune, but the both carry common bug text.
 599 2012-10-15 12:32:29 <jgarzik> Most source code include "if you don't have a copy, go to this $url" language
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 601 2012-10-15 12:33:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: common bug text?
 602 2012-10-15 12:33:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: indeed, I was just following along with the pedantry.  In general we ourselves aren't likely to non-conform in a material way as what _we_ do would even work under the GPL.
 603 2012-10-15 12:33:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: s/text/risk/ sorry, just woke up
 604 2012-10-15 12:33:29 <gmaxwell> :P
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 606 2012-10-15 12:33:40 <sturles> In my experience slow nodes is the major factor holding back network sync.  2 GB going out through a home ADSL line isn't fast.
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 608 2012-10-15 12:34:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: shipping the text is not optional for GPL/LGPL, technically
 609 2012-10-15 12:34:41 <gmaxwell> sturles: it wasn't previously.
 610 2012-10-15 12:34:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: on VPS's the difference between BDB and LevelDB (both on ultraprune) is massive
 611 2012-10-15 12:35:05 <sipa> like an order of magnitude
 612 2012-10-15 12:35:21 <ThomasV> sipa: ok, let me try your branch
 613 2012-10-15 12:35:35 <jgarzik> LevelDB simply does not update as many files/blocks as BDB does, for the same amount of block processing work
 614 2012-10-15 12:35:39 <gmaxwell> But if we're serious about the MIT license being actually MITish, we need to think about making it easy for downstream reusers to be license kosher when they do closed sourcy things we don't.
 615 2012-10-15 12:35:44 <jgarzik> lower pagecache usage
 616 2012-10-15 12:35:51 <jgarzik> + less disk thrashing on lower resource nodes
 617 2012-10-15 12:35:56 <sipa> jgarzik: exactly
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 620 2012-10-15 12:36:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: agreed
 621 2012-10-15 12:36:33 <jgarzik> license pedantry is pedantry... but it is important to get the legal stuff right
 622 2012-10-15 12:36:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats interesting, I just remembered my own— on ssd tests— and some numbers you had  (I guess on your laptop)
 623 2012-10-15 12:37:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: even on ultraprune, iirc syncing the full chain took a day on my VPS
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 625 2012-10-15 12:38:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, agreed. I only point out that it's pedantry to emphasize that it's not urgent, we can slowly grind in the right direction. (wumpus was stressing a bit about some of the pull requests arguments the other day)
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 627 2012-10-15 12:39:23 <jgarzik> my sanity level is high today, because I have been deleting all those github posts unread ;-)
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 646 2012-10-15 12:58:22 <jgarzik> my life would move much more slowly, without shell history
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 649 2012-10-15 12:58:57 <lianj> and zsh
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 651 2012-10-15 12:59:16 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I find it handy to have per-directory shell histories (with an eternal global-history sorted before it)
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 654 2012-10-15 13:03:06 <ThomasV> sipa: I am running your branch now. it's not only faster, it also seems to use much less memory
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 658 2012-10-15 13:08:03 <ThomasV> yes, that's an order of magnitude difference
 659 2012-10-15 13:08:52 <sipa> glad to hear; let me know if you find any issues
 660 2012-10-15 13:09:43 <ThomasV> it hasn't yet reached the Satoshi Dice part of the blockchain
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 681 2012-10-15 13:34:22 <ThomasV> sipa: but it does not have getrawmempool??
 682 2012-10-15 13:35:57 <sipa> it should
 683 2012-10-15 13:36:20 <sipa> here it does :)
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 689 2012-10-15 13:43:22 <ThomasV> oh ok
 690 2012-10-15 13:46:06 <sipa> why wouldn't it?
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 693 2012-10-15 13:48:23 <ThomasV> no, you said above it does not have getrawtransaction, and I confused it fot getrawmempool
 694 2012-10-15 13:48:32 <ThomasV> *for*
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 696 2012-10-15 13:50:07 <sipa> it does have getrawtransaction as well, but it's a lot slower, and only works for not-completely-spent transactions
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 698 2012-10-15 13:51:11 <ThomasV> will 0.8 have getrawtransaction?
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 700 2012-10-15 13:51:45 <sipa> i may add an optional txindex later on, to speed up getrawtransaction
 701 2012-10-15 13:52:41 <jgarzik> ThomasV: 0.8 should have everything currently in sipa's ultraprune branch
 702 2012-10-15 13:53:17 <jgarzik> ThomasV: 0.8 will have getrawtransaction, yes.  it will not work for spent transactions.
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 704 2012-10-15 13:54:48 <jgarzik> we should add "require c++0x" to the todo list
 705 2012-10-15 13:55:02 <jgarzik> seems doable, if we can upgrade mingw compile env
 706 2012-10-15 13:55:57 <sipa> moving to c++0x would be nice, indeed
 707 2012-10-15 13:56:47 <Luke-Jr> would it be much overhead to store a bloom filter for the txids in every N blocks, to enable a slower getrawtx on spent ones?
 708 2012-10-15 13:58:04 <jgarzik> sipa: it is disappointing that ultraprune's blkNNNN.dat flushing is a lot less efficient than current HEAD
 709 2012-10-15 13:58:25 <jgarzik> sipa: current HEAD is write+flush, ultraprune does a much more expensive open+flush+close
 710 2012-10-15 13:58:41 <sipa> jgarzik: hmm?
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 712 2012-10-15 13:58:58 <jgarzik> sipa: reading https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/b0fe5885f2adb837f10555da24e2dbcc351d2c24
 713 2012-10-15 13:59:00 <sipa> head doesn't keep the block file open either, afaik
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 716 2012-10-15 13:59:47 <jgarzik> sipa: HEAD syscall trace looks like: write(2), fdatasync(2).   ultraprune appears to write(2), close(2), open(2), fdatasync(2), close(2)
 717 2012-10-15 14:00:14 <jgarzik> well write(2), fdatasync(2), close(2)
 718 2012-10-15 14:00:18 <jgarzik> but the point stands
 719 2012-10-15 14:00:40 <jgarzik> unless ultraprune fixes that behavior in a later commit
 720 2012-10-15 14:01:10 <sipa> no, i plan to redo the block syncing thing after a global block cache
 721 2012-10-15 14:01:42 <sipa> the problem is that doing it in one call requires knowing in advance whether the block is to be flushed after a certain connect, passing that down into the block tree logic, ...
 722 2012-10-15 14:02:33 <sipa> but yes, minor regression right now, i agree
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 724 2012-10-15 14:03:06 <sipa> ultraprune should be slightly safer than HEAD, though
 725 2012-10-15 14:03:12 <sipa> in terms of disk consistency
 726 2012-10-15 14:03:43 <jgarzik> sipa: how so?
 727 2012-10-15 14:04:08 <jgarzik> sipa: HEAD flushes after writing block, then does an index update wrapped in a BDB transaction
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 729 2012-10-15 14:04:29 <sipa> not during IBD
 730 2012-10-15 14:04:37 <jgarzik> true
 731 2012-10-15 14:04:42 <sipa> ultraprune flushes blocks right before any DB write
 732 2012-10-15 14:04:51 <sipa> but does so less frequently in IBD
 733 2012-10-15 14:05:27 <jgarzik> sipa: what is leveldb flush behavior during IBD?  after every index update (every block)?
 734 2012-10-15 14:05:51 <jgarzik> do you batch multiple blocks into one leveldb batch, during IBD?
 735 2012-10-15 14:06:03 <sipa> jgarzik: ultraprune has a globally cached pcoinsTip object, which maintains the coin status
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 737 2012-10-15 14:06:20 <sipa> during IBD that objects is flushed to disk only after 5000 modified transactions
 738 2012-10-15 14:06:34 <sipa> and there are no DB writes apart from that
 739 2012-10-15 14:06:53 <sipa> and before that write, it flushes blocks and blockdb
 740 2012-10-15 14:09:41 <sipa> there is still a weakness though, as updates to the block index are not cached but written immediately (though a sync is issued right before writing coin data), so there is a chance that the block index update makes it to disk, but the blocks themselves don't
 741 2012-10-15 14:09:55 <sipa> (during IBD)
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 747 2012-10-15 14:18:04 <jgarzik> sipa: cool
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 749 2012-10-15 14:18:31 <jgarzik> sipa: not so worried about IBD anyway; just wondering.  We can blow away the db and restart, and things are still efficient.
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 812 2012-10-15 15:34:12 <jgarzik> http://bitcoinmagazine.net/interview-with-glbses-nefario/
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 814 2012-10-15 15:35:27 <D34TH> jgarzik, i totally just got an invite to lemon wallet's dev challenge we should get bitcoin on it
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 822 2012-10-15 15:49:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: nice bus tracks all over thymos' back there.
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 824 2012-10-15 15:50:04 <sipa> ?
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 827 2012-10-15 15:51:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: the article he linked to, nefario spends considerable length accusing Theymos of undermining GLBSE and saying that he is hold customer deposits in excess of what he's claimed he's holding.
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 834 2012-10-15 15:57:47 <jgarzik> yah
 835 2012-10-15 15:58:20 <jgarzik> theymos v. Nefario gossip, plus perhaps UK FSA opinion of bitcoin changing
 836 2012-10-15 15:58:43 <jgarzik> the "all bitcoin use requires AML" is sad but not unexpected
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 840 2012-10-15 16:00:39 <helo> so if you want to sell something for bitcoin, you have to get verifiable id?
 841 2012-10-15 16:00:50 <helo> (from the customer obv)
 842 2012-10-15 16:02:34 <gmaxwell> helo: sounds really unlikely— as that doesn't exist for cash; I'd expect all bank like usage to end up like that.
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 849 2012-10-15 16:10:44 * helo learns what "currency changing" means... ah, good
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 851 2012-10-15 16:12:19 <jgarzik> This is in the context of GLBSE-like assets.  It seems unlikely that a merchant selling regular goods for bitcoins would have any AML requirements over and above what they already have for fiat cash.
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 857 2012-10-15 16:16:37 <devrandom>   /win 21
 858 2012-10-15 16:16:41 <devrandom> argh
 859 2012-10-15 16:17:42 <Luke-Jr>  /lose 22
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 869 2012-10-15 16:26:34 <helo> sipa: should i be alarmed to see "failed to connect best block" with ultraprune?
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 876 2012-10-15 16:32:56 <t7> asdasasdasddsa
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 878 2012-10-15 16:34:10 <sipa> helo: does it still work?
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 883 2012-10-15 16:35:48 <helo> nope, aborts
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 889 2012-10-15 16:43:13 <sipa> helo: what errors do you see in debug.log?
 890 2012-10-15 16:44:37 <helo> REORGANIZE: Disconnect 1 blocks; 000000000000048d4dc3..00000000000000d94da9
 891 2012-10-15 16:44:49 <helo> REORGANIZE: Connect 2 blocks; 000000000000048d4dc3..0000000000000176ec0e
 892 2012-10-15 16:44:53 <helo> ERROR: DisconnectBlock() : added transaction mismatch? database corrupted
 893 2012-10-15 16:45:01 <helo> ERROR: SetBestBlock() : DisconnectBlock 00000000000000d94da9 failed
 894 2012-10-15 16:45:49 <helo> i likely pulled the rug out from under it when i rebooted just prior to this
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 897 2012-10-15 16:47:06 <sipa> helo: did you upgrade the code?
 898 2012-10-15 16:47:22 <helo> nope, at 41f98b3c506de5a81e143fc7538aa85d325e9c66
 899 2012-10-15 16:48:28 <helo> hmm... that's older than i thought
 900 2012-10-15 16:48:57 <sipa> try latest
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 905 2012-10-15 16:51:36 <helo> i thought i was on latest... git clone https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin.git && cd bitcoin && git checkout -b ultraprune -t origin/ultraprune
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 911 2012-10-15 16:58:14 <sipa> helo: does git head fix the problem?
 912 2012-10-15 16:58:23 <helo> building
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 914 2012-10-15 17:00:52 <helo> src/sethash.{cpp,h} missing...
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 919 2012-10-15 17:01:48 <sipa> helo: means i screwed up; those files shouldn't be referenced
 920 2012-10-15 17:02:57 <helo> k, removed from the .pro
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 923 2012-10-15 17:05:45 <helo> sipa: same error
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 925 2012-10-15 17:06:18 <sipa> helo: the old code may have screwed up
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 927 2012-10-15 17:12:28 * helo reprimands the boogey man
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 929 2012-10-15 17:13:32 <helo> sipa: ultraprune currenlty does no pruning by default, correct?
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 932 2012-10-15 17:15:27 <sipa> helo: none at all
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 934 2012-10-15 17:15:54 <helo> it's just using leveldb to organize things better for pruning?
 935 2012-10-15 17:16:05 <helo> rather, "using leveldb and organizing..."
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 941 2012-10-15 17:22:44 <jgarzik> helo: Berkeley DB is used to index the blockchain.  That software is replaced with leveldb, which is used to index the blockchain.
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 947 2012-10-15 17:26:59 <MC1984> ultraprune tunred out to be a massive misnomer
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 950 2012-10-15 17:28:15 <sipa> MC1984: it maintains an ultra-pruned version of the chain in addition to the blockchain
 951 2012-10-15 17:28:29 <sipa> but yes, it's confusing
 952 2012-10-15 17:28:33 <sipa> maybe i should still rename it
 953 2012-10-15 17:28:55 <MC1984> ultrachain or something
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 956 2012-10-15 17:34:06 <alexmat> anyone interested in buying a 12month access to any porn site of your choosing!
 957 2012-10-15 17:34:46 <kjj_> ooh.  which op is going to ban the spammer first?
 958 2012-10-15 17:34:56 <MC1984> >paying for porn
 959 2012-10-15 17:34:59 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 960 2012-10-15 17:35:02 <copumpkin> seems nicer to just ask him not to spam
 961 2012-10-15 17:35:07 <copumpkin> rather than to ban immediately
 962 2012-10-15 17:35:52 <kjj_> yes, because if there is anything that having email for the last 15 years has taught me, it is that the problem is lack of education.
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 967 2012-10-15 17:39:36 <jgarzik> sipa: just rename the branch to "zooooom"
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 971 2012-10-15 17:40:40 <kjj_> lol.  he PMd me, called me a shithead and told me to mind my own business
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 973 2012-10-15 17:41:33 <alexmat> deserve it!
 974 2012-10-15 17:42:24 <jgarzik> alexmat: behave, and do not spam this channel
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 978 2012-10-15 17:48:30 <jdnavarro> is there a maximum size for a transaction?
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 980 2012-10-15 17:50:37 <maaku> jdnavarro: 1MB
 981 2012-10-15 17:50:48 <maaku> but in practice much lower
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 983 2012-10-15 17:51:35 <jdnavarro> maaku: alright
 984 2012-10-15 17:51:51 <jdnavarro> I'll update the protocol specification in the wiki
 985 2012-10-15 17:51:56 <maaku> jdnavarro: no
 986 2012-10-15 17:52:09 <maaku> it's not part of the protocol
 987 2012-10-15 17:52:19 <maaku> it just that the block limit is 1mb
 988 2012-10-15 17:52:19 <jdnavarro> hmm
 989 2012-10-15 17:52:32 <maaku> so a larger transaction could never make it into a block
 990 2012-10-15 17:52:52 <jdnavarro> but you can still send it around
 991 2012-10-15 17:53:23 <maaku> maybe, maybe not. but does that matter?
 992 2012-10-15 17:53:25 <jdnavarro> unless there is a limit in the size of tx message
 993 2012-10-15 17:53:57 <maaku> that's an implementation detail, not a protocol requirement
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 995 2012-10-15 17:55:52 <jdnavarro> maaku: but that would be an obvious DoS attack
 996 2012-10-15 17:56:21 <jdnavarro> just sending huge transactions like crazy would overload many nodes, wouldn't it?
 997 2012-10-15 17:57:40 <jgarzik> jdnavarro: large orphan transactions are not remembered, for similar reasons
 998 2012-10-15 17:58:05 <jgarzik> normally bitcoin remembers orphans (though not immediately spendable, due to lack of dependent transactions) in case the parents appear later
 999 2012-10-15 17:59:04 <maaku> jdnavarro: so? that doesn't mean it should be on the protocol page. the bitcoin protocol page should cover the protocol, and not be cluttered up with DoS protection trivialities
1000 2012-10-15 17:59:15 Dyaheon has joined
1001 2012-10-15 18:00:01 <jdnavarro> maaku: well, there are other messages with size limits
1002 2012-10-15 18:00:28 lggr has joined
1003 2012-10-15 18:00:52 <jdnavarro> jgarzik: you mean by remember that it receives it, deletes them and doesn't relay them?
1004 2012-10-15 18:01:16 <jgarzik> jdnavarro: correct, for the first two
1005 2012-10-15 18:01:22 <jgarzik> I don't _think_ it relays, but I could be wrong
1006 2012-10-15 18:02:22 * jdnavarro is checking the source code of the official client
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1012 2012-10-15 18:11:26 <sipa> transactions must not be over 1000000 bytes
1013 2012-10-15 18:11:31 <sipa> that is an actual network rule
1014 2012-10-15 18:12:08 <sipa> (although it is redundant, as such a transaction cannot be in a block without that block going over its size limit)
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1018 2012-10-15 18:14:38 <jdnavarro> I just found there is a limit for the message size: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L3090
1019 2012-10-15 18:14:56 <jdnavarro> sipa: it's that the limit or there is a specific one for transactions?
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1027 2012-10-15 18:23:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the rule is actually that no network message can be > MAX_SIZE so it's slightly smaller than the usually quoted number
1028 2012-10-15 18:23:51 <jdnavarro> I just realized that the limit for the transaction is the same as the limit for the block
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1030 2012-10-15 18:24:21 <sipa> phantomcircuit: MAX_SIZE is 32 MiB, if my hex-foo is good
1031 2012-10-15 18:24:39 <phantomcircuit> is it?
1032 2012-10-15 18:24:44 <jdnavarro> sipa: I can confirm it
1033 2012-10-15 18:24:45 <phantomcircuit> i seem to remember it being 10MiB
1034 2012-10-15 18:24:49 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1035 2012-10-15 18:24:49 <sipa> serialize.h:static const unsigned int MAX_SIZE = 0x02000000;
1036 2012-10-15 18:24:50 <phantomcircuit> guess not
1037 2012-10-15 18:24:59 <sipa> MAX_BLOCK_SIZE is 1000000, though
1038 2012-10-15 18:26:05 <sipa> jdnavarro: anyway, both CheckBlock and CheckTransaction (basic context-independent validity checks) require the respective block/tx being at most MAX_BLOCK_SIZE
1039 2012-10-15 18:26:40 <jdnavarro> sipa: right
1040 2012-10-15 18:27:06 <jdnavarro> I'll go with it
1041 2012-10-15 18:27:09 <jdnavarro> thanks guys
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1049 2012-10-15 18:42:12 <sipa> helo: did you restart from scratch? let me know if the same thing happens still with newer code
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1064 2012-10-15 19:01:19 <helo> sipa: yeah, i restarted from the beginning... i doubt i can exit at the same state it was at, but after ibd i'll reload and let you know
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1155 2012-10-15 20:28:02 <BCB> any idea why a transaction from my 0.7 bitcoind would not hit the blockchain
1156 2012-10-15 20:28:18 lggr has joined
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1158 2012-10-15 20:30:11 <c_k> BCB: give it time
1159 2012-10-15 20:30:16 <c_k> BCB: how long has it been?
1160 2012-10-15 20:30:22 <BCB> 10 min
1161 2012-10-15 20:30:33 <jgarzik> BCB: what do you mean "hit the blockchain"?
1162 2012-10-15 20:30:36 <BCB> I usually have 1 confirm by now
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1164 2012-10-15 20:31:01 <jgarzik> BCB: 10 minutes is only an average.  it could take an hour if you're unlucky.
1165 2012-10-15 20:31:41 balrog has quit (Client Quit)
1166 2012-10-15 20:31:44 <BCB> jgarzik: to even show up in the blockchain??
1167 2012-10-15 20:31:47 <BCB> I've never seen that
1168 2012-10-15 20:32:09 <BCB> sent at 2012-15-10 15:43:52
1169 2012-10-15 20:32:14 <kjj_> yes, that's what the blockchain is.  or do you mean in the memory pool of the node that runs blockchain.info's website?
1170 2012-10-15 20:32:36 <BCB> "48b0d02003a926d6db7fceb39b3acf5b43e9f65dbc03718883c05626dbfb75b6"
1171 2012-10-15 20:32:56 <sipa> ;;bc,tslb
1172 2012-10-15 20:32:57 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 minutes and 21 seconds
1173 2012-10-15 20:33:13 <BCB> I have a transaction on my bitcoind
1174 2012-10-15 20:33:20 <BCB> funds are gone
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1176 2012-10-15 20:33:31 <BCB> but when i check blockchain.info nothing
1177 2012-10-15 20:33:43 <BCB> i've just not seen that before
1178 2012-10-15 20:34:02 <sipa> wait half an hour, there can have been a network hiccup when the transaction was submitted
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1180 2012-10-15 20:34:08 <sipa> your client will eventually retransmit
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1182 2012-10-15 20:34:42 <BCB> sipa:will do
1183 2012-10-15 20:35:02 <BCB> sipa: can I cancel that tranasction
1184 2012-10-15 20:35:08 <jgarzik> BCB: there is a good place to watch: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/
1185 2012-10-15 20:35:46 <sipa> BCB: no, because there is no knowing of who might have seen the transaction
1186 2012-10-15 20:35:54 <sipa> they will keep considering it valid anyway
1187 2012-10-15 20:37:01 <BCB> sipa:jarzik:thx
1188 2012-10-15 20:38:32 <kjj_> I wish he would purge those bogus transactions, or at least move them to a different page
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1190 2012-10-15 20:40:42 <BCB> where does that data come from on bitcoincharts and is it available from my bitcoind
1191 2012-10-15 20:41:43 <sipa> yes
1192 2012-10-15 20:42:00 <sipa> but since you sent the transaction, you yourself will certainly have it
1193 2012-10-15 20:42:04 <helo> jgarzik: why gevent with pynode?
1194 2012-10-15 20:42:09 <sipa> the question is whether it propages through the network
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1196 2012-10-15 20:42:37 <helo> jgarzik: that is, why did you choose gevent for pynode
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1198 2012-10-15 20:43:04 <jgarzik> helo: it's better than asyncore, and somebody else did the work ;p   I actually dislike the model gevent exposes quite a bit:  these soft threads are nothing like what goes on "under the hood", leading to odd code occasionally.
1199 2012-10-15 20:43:29 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: so why not networkserver? :p
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1201 2012-10-15 20:43:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: never heard of it
1202 2012-10-15 20:44:14 <Luke-Jr> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/eloipool/blobs/master/networkserver.py
1203 2012-10-15 20:44:33 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: I am tempted to use python 3.x for pynode though:  3.3 includes os.sendfile.  pynode's current flat-file blockchain format precisely matches a network "block" message, to prepare for this.
1204 2012-10-15 20:45:03 <Luke-Jr> no sendfile before 3.3? O.o
1205 2012-10-15 20:45:16 <jgarzik> nope AFAICT
1206 2012-10-15 20:45:20 <jgarzik> *not
1207 2012-10-15 20:45:37 <Diablo-D3> heh
1208 2012-10-15 20:45:40 <Diablo-D3> silly python
1209 2012-10-15 20:46:01 <Diablo-D3> HAI LETS MAKE TWO VERSIONS OF PYTHON THAT BOTH GET ACTIVE DEVELOPMENT, ARE INCOMPATIBLE, AND INCLUDE FEATURES THE OTHER DOESNT HAVE THAT DEVELOPERS WANT
1210 2012-10-15 20:46:04 <Diablo-D3> HURRRRRRRRRRR
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1212 2012-10-15 20:46:13 <Luke-Jr> looks like it was a non-included module or such: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/py-sendfile/
1213 2012-10-15 20:46:17 <sipa> Diablo-D3: just consider them to be two different languages
1214 2012-10-15 20:46:28 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: Python 2 has no active development afaik
1215 2012-10-15 20:46:43 <jgarzik> just 90% of the active users :)
1216 2012-10-15 20:47:05 <Luke-Jr> dunno, I think I can uninstall Python 2 soon
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1220 2012-10-15 20:51:19 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I do
1221 2012-10-15 20:51:23 <Diablo-D3> but its still annoying as fuck
1222 2012-10-15 20:51:29 <Diablo-D3> its one of the major reasons why I wont use python
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1228 2012-10-15 20:55:11 <jgarzik> heh, transaction fees as messaging: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117630.msg1274260#msg1274260
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1250 2012-10-15 21:14:17 <MC1984> whos gonna make a metro ui for bitcoin for windows 8 out next month?
1251 2012-10-15 21:14:28 <MC1984> you guys gonna draw straws or what?
1252 2012-10-15 21:14:56 tg has joined
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1254 2012-10-15 21:15:29 <MC1984> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ1oPDtdhFo
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1256 2012-10-15 21:17:48 <sipa> MC1984: there are very few windows devs active
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1261 2012-10-15 21:22:10 <EPiSKiNG> why does my latest version of Bitcoin-QT require .0005 TX Fee for nearly every transaction?
1262 2012-10-15 21:22:54 <copumpkin> probably depends on how fragmented your coins are?
1263 2012-10-15 21:22:58 <sipa> probably because you have very young/small coins that would otherwise be considered spam by most nodes on the network
1264 2012-10-15 21:24:46 <BlueMatt> TD: to work around https://github.com/netty/netty/issues/535 (triggered when bitcoinj sees high connection count sometimes), can we upgrade netty?
1265 2012-10-15 21:24:46 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1266 2012-10-15 21:24:49 <gmaxwell> EPiSKiNG: none of that code has changed in a very long time, so 'latest version' shouldn't be relevant.
1267 2012-10-15 21:25:29 <EPiSKiNG> hmm
1268 2012-10-15 21:25:34 unknown45682 has quit (2!~unknown45@pool-98-109-234-58.nwrknj.east.verizon.net|)
1269 2012-10-15 21:25:38 <sturles> EPiSKiNG: Wait until you have at least 6 confirmations before sending again, and use sendmany when possible.
1270 2012-10-15 21:25:47 <EPiSKiNG> ok
1271 2012-10-15 21:26:01 <gmaxwell> and aviod getting paid lots of little payments when you can easily avoid it.
1272 2012-10-15 21:26:16 <gmaxwell> (e.g. don't do daily payouts from mining pools)
1273 2012-10-15 21:27:07 <gmaxwell> Also upgading your wallet format to the latest version and flush the keypool so all your addresses are for compressed keys (unless your wallet is already fairly newly created)
1274 2012-10-15 21:27:08 <sipa> the relay minimum was changed to 0.0005 on june 5th 2011 :)
1275 2012-10-15 21:27:30 lggr has joined
1276 2012-10-15 21:29:16 bitcoinz has joined
1277 2012-10-15 21:29:26 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1278 2012-10-15 21:31:50 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1279 2012-10-15 21:33:32 <TD> BlueMatt: what version do we need?
1280 2012-10-15 21:33:53 <BlueMatt> apparently 3.5.6...
1281 2012-10-15 21:34:35 lggr has joined
1282 2012-10-15 21:37:57 tower has joined
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1284 2012-10-15 21:39:24 <gavinandresen> sipa jgarzik gmaxwell BlueMatt : I'm preparing for the foundation meeting later this week, and trying to come up with a hardware/software wish list for the dev team.
1285 2012-10-15 21:39:59 <gavinandresen> So, what do we wish for?
1286 2012-10-15 21:40:17 <Luke-Jr> …
1287 2012-10-15 21:40:25 lggr has joined
1288 2012-10-15 21:40:43 <sipa> some infrastructure to run BlueMatt's pull tester on?
1289 2012-10-15 21:40:48 <gavinandresen> Also, anybody know if Apple or Microsoft have inexpensive developer subscriptions for open source projects?
1290 2012-10-15 21:41:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: DNS seed
1291 2012-10-15 21:41:14 <gavinandresen> sipa:  yes, I put two beefy dedicated servers on the wish list.
1292 2012-10-15 21:41:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: some full nodes with SSDs, good relaying ones
1293 2012-10-15 21:41:49 <Luke-Jr> if the Foundation is going to run a DNS seed, it would make sense to give it a name and add it in for 0.7.1 IMO
1294 2012-10-15 21:42:11 <gavinandresen> too late for 0.7.1, I think.
1295 2012-10-15 21:42:32 <Luke-Jr> oh well, gives whoever time to get it running I guess
1296 2012-10-15 21:42:43 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: how much does a full node with SSD cost per month?
1297 2012-10-15 21:42:55 * jgarzik wonders about BF sponsoring an http bootstrap.dat download from Amazon S3
1298 2012-10-15 21:43:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: dunno... and family dinner time.  bbi ~1hr
1299 2012-10-15 21:43:17 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: cool.  I should get dinner going, too....
1300 2012-10-15 21:43:41 <sipa> i'm not sure whether I'd rather have disk+more RAM or SDD+less RAM
1301 2012-10-15 21:43:48 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: if you get a dedi with "unmetered" bandwidth, it should be a fixed cost
1302 2012-10-15 21:43:56 eoss has joined
1303 2012-10-15 21:44:11 * sipa is afraid of the crowd's reaction to a seed.bitcoinfoundation.org in the source code...
1304 2012-10-15 21:44:20 <Luke-Jr> worst case it can't handle the load and upgrading it can be visited in a future month
1305 2012-10-15 21:44:38 optimator_ has joined
1306 2012-10-15 21:44:49 <Luke-Jr> (in that case, it would probably still be beneficial to the network even if bogged down a bit)
1307 2012-10-15 21:45:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1308 2012-10-15 21:46:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: don't be frightened... and I vote for seed.btc.org
1309 2012-10-15 21:46:25 <gavinandresen> (foundation owns both bitcoinfoundation.org and btc.org domains)
1310 2012-10-15 21:46:36 <sipa> ha :)
1311 2012-10-15 21:47:13 lggr has joined
1312 2012-10-15 21:47:58 <Luke-Jr> is that "crowd" any bigger than "mostly just Atlas"? <.<
1313 2012-10-15 21:49:50 <TD> BlueMatt: ok. i'll try and remember. if you file a bug i'll do it later this week
1314 2012-10-15 21:49:53 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1315 2012-10-15 21:50:08 <TD> gavinandresen: code signing certs
1316 2012-10-15 21:50:24 <rdponticelli> Well, Atlas alone is not less than 5 guys :)
1317 2012-10-15 21:50:28 <TD> haha
1318 2012-10-15 21:50:32 <gmaxwell> I was wondering if perhaps we shouldn't start calling seeds 'bootstraps' .. but then realized thats what jeff called the blockchain preloads.
1319 2012-10-15 21:50:43 <gavinandresen> TD: yes... just need to join the Microsoft/Apple dev programs to get code signing certs, I believe
1320 2012-10-15 21:50:47 <sipa> entry nodes?
1321 2012-10-15 21:51:03 <TD> for microsoft i believe it's something like verisign. apples costs $99 a year, or something like that
1322 2012-10-15 21:51:04 <jgarzik> Walmart Greeters
1323 2012-10-15 21:51:05 <TD> just involves some paperowrk
1324 2012-10-15 21:51:33 <gavinandresen> TD: yes, I already asked Patrick to start the "get a DUNS number" that is the beginning of the process
1325 2012-10-15 21:51:56 <TD> DUNS number?
1326 2012-10-15 21:52:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1327 2012-10-15 21:52:29 <TD> gavinandresen: more secure hosting in general. ideally a dedicated box in a cage in a datacenter near where you live
1328 2012-10-15 21:52:40 <TD> no VPS. no remote root access.
1329 2012-10-15 21:52:47 <TD> for hosting file downloads and the website
1330 2012-10-15 21:52:52 lggr has joined
1331 2012-10-15 21:53:12 <gavinandresen> TD: near where I live?  I don't want to get the pager beep to drive to the datacenter and replace that failed hard drive....
1332 2012-10-15 21:53:15 * jgarzik whips out his phatty DUNS number, SAMS number, _and_ US Patent Office Customer Number
1333 2012-10-15 21:53:59 <TD> or near where mark lives :)
1334 2012-10-15 21:54:01 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: set it up to automatically update from git/uploads when the commit is signed by 3+ people?
1335 2012-10-15 21:54:14 <TD> just generally, we know that free virtual hosting seems to be a vulnerability
1336 2012-10-15 21:54:29 <TD> so it'd suck if the site hosting bitcoin downloads got hacked and the binaries replaced. it'd take a while for people to notice that
1337 2012-10-15 21:54:30 <Luke-Jr> also, HTTPS would be good if we're going to secure bitcoin.org
1338 2012-10-15 21:54:32 <sipa> linode is very trustworrthy, indeed
1339 2012-10-15 21:54:33 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: see this possible lock bug report?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117874.msg1273313#msg1273313
1340 2012-10-15 21:54:35 <TD> ditto for defacement of the website
1341 2012-10-15 21:55:09 vigilyn has joined
1342 2012-10-15 21:55:24 freakazoid has joined
1343 2012-10-15 21:57:00 <gavinandresen> I'm not sure I agree; I think I'd rather have an early warning system that checked downloads once an hour and reacted automatically (e.g. emailed a few of us and automatically shutdown downloads until problem was resolved)
1344 2012-10-15 21:57:23 optimator_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1345 2012-10-15 21:57:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1346 2012-10-15 21:57:51 <TD> well that would be good too, but even if caught, a hacked server would be confidence shaking
1347 2012-10-15 21:58:24 lggr has joined
1348 2012-10-15 21:59:18 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: that isn't exclusive.
1349 2012-10-15 21:59:32 <gavinandresen> I agree, but I don't have faith that even if the Foundation spent bunches of money it's website would be secure.
1350 2012-10-15 21:59:39 setkeh` has joined
1351 2012-10-15 22:00:45 <gavinandresen> ... would be 100% secure, I should say.
1352 2012-10-15 22:01:23 <sipa> if you want 100% security, make sure it's disconnected from the network and powered off
1353 2012-10-15 22:01:31 <gavinandresen> exactly
1354 2012-10-15 22:01:40 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1355 2012-10-15 22:01:47 <sipa> doesn't mean certain steps can make it significantly harder to attack
1356 2012-10-15 22:01:51 <sipa> *can't
1357 2012-10-15 22:01:52 BlackPrapor has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1358 2012-10-15 22:03:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1359 2012-10-15 22:04:00 lggr has joined
1360 2012-10-15 22:05:19 <gmaxwell> Besides if we follow best pratices and get hacked we at least advance the state of the art in knowing what doesn't work.
1361 2012-10-15 22:05:34 <gmaxwell> If we don't follow best practices and get hacked nothing is learned. :P
1362 2012-10-15 22:06:10 <gmaxwell> (of course, what is "best practices"? — a question the bitcoin ecosystem would benefit from knowing the answer to!)
1363 2012-10-15 22:06:20 <gavinandresen> writing up best practices is one of the missions of the Foundation
1364 2012-10-15 22:06:49 AndChat567216 has joined
1365 2012-10-15 22:07:09 <Luke-Jr> I'd suggest hiring a security expert for that; unless someone here is one?
1366 2012-10-15 22:07:19 <Luke-Jr> (or even if someone here is one)
1367 2012-10-15 22:07:51 <gmaxwell> Securing a static webserver is not a unique and special activity.
1368 2012-10-15 22:08:32 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1369 2012-10-15 22:09:17 <c_k> I suspect there is quite a number of security experts in the bitcoin community
1370 2012-10-15 22:09:38 lggr has joined
1371 2012-10-15 22:09:50 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately there are also quite a number of security "experts"... :P
1372 2012-10-15 22:09:54 <c_k> however surely most of us are rather well versed in what constitutes good security practices and how to learn them
1373 2012-10-15 22:10:15 OneEyed has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9)
1374 2012-10-15 22:10:19 <sipa> c_k: judging by several events in bitcoin's history, i'm not too sure about that :)
1375 2012-10-15 22:10:30 <sipa> well, events in its ecosystem
1376 2012-10-15 22:10:45 <Luke-Jr> I think the community would like to hear Bitcoin.org is secured so that compromising it means getting at at least 3 people, 2 of whom must be in different jurisdictions
1377 2012-10-15 22:10:48 <gmaxwell> securing dynamic stuff is hard.
1378 2012-10-15 22:11:15 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: step 1) replace https with something new that accomidates that mode of operation.
1379 2012-10-15 22:11:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if we don't use https, nobody NEEDS to compromise the server in the first place
1380 2012-10-15 22:11:40 <Luke-Jr> they can just replace it
1381 2012-10-15 22:11:46 <c_k> sipa: haha you are right, there are certainly some developers of bitcoin related web apps with poor security design
1382 2012-10-15 22:11:47 dvide has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1383 2012-10-15 22:12:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you misunderstood me, I wasn't arguing against https... I'm pointing out that http/https doesn't facilitate secure decenteralized operation. There must be at least one server that if compromised makes the site compromised.
1384 2012-10-15 22:13:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm thinking more like there's no remote access, local access requires someone to fly out from another country, and updates are made via git commits signed off by 3+ (including 2 in diff jurisdictions)
1385 2012-10-15 22:13:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and when you try to get smart you take risks.. say the site itself gitian builds and checks gitian signatures. ... okay great, now someone inserts an exploit in a makefile. :(  (not that these things can't be done safely, but it takes careful work)
1386 2012-10-15 22:13:53 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1387 2012-10-15 22:13:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1388 2012-10-15 22:14:18 * sipa zZzZ
1389 2012-10-15 22:14:24 <gmaxwell> and if you lock down access too much you can't apply urgent security patches (less criticial if its a locked down otherwise static server)
1390 2012-10-15 22:14:39 <Luke-Jr> true
1391 2012-10-15 22:15:17 lggr has joined
1392 2012-10-15 22:15:23 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, it's probably a bit too complicated as the "next step tomorrow"
1393 2012-10-15 22:16:03 <gmaxwell> but sure, some kind of highly locked down, yubikey and ACL mediated... thing that takes updates by periodically fetching a multisigned tar with a copy of the whole site .. or something.. might be possible to make secure without boiling the oceans.
1394 2012-10-15 22:16:15 <TD> by the way
1395 2012-10-15 22:16:29 <TD> at some point i think it'd be a good idea to move the FAQ to static HTML stored in git
1396 2012-10-15 22:16:34 <TD> the current wiki based FAQ is a mess
1397 2012-10-15 22:16:47 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1398 2012-10-15 22:17:15 <TD> possibly some other wiki content could move as well
1399 2012-10-15 22:17:28 <TD> storing it in git means changes have to go through peer review before they go live and you don't get stupid edit wars
1400 2012-10-15 22:18:15 dvide has joined
1401 2012-10-15 22:19:11 <gmaxwell> have we had edit war problems on the FAQ?
1402 2012-10-15 22:19:41 <gmaxwell> not that I don't agree.. though I also think the FAQ is fairly imbalanced right now, e.g. misses some actual FAQs and spends perhaps too much time on some subjects.
1403 2012-10-15 22:19:42 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1404 2012-10-15 22:19:44 <TD> yeah
1405 2012-10-15 22:20:14 alexmat has left ()
1406 2012-10-15 22:20:14 <TD> i made some edits and then some random guy reverted all of them, but not completely so the answer is now an unintelligible mess
1407 2012-10-15 22:20:22 <TD> he seems to think the word "recourse" means "reversible"
1408 2012-10-15 22:20:35 <TD> so the answer talks about non-recourse transactions, which makes no sense in English
1409 2012-10-15 22:21:00 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1410 2012-10-15 22:21:14 <TD> also the answer to the deflation question is a rambling essay that doesn't say much of anything
1411 2012-10-15 22:21:41 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1412 2012-10-15 22:21:53 <gmaxwell> ugh. well, one FAQ is in fact about non-technical methods of attack resistance and deterrence... lots of people seem surprisingly blown away by the idea that you could use totally boring mechnisms to secure bitcoin just as you use to secure other things.
1413 2012-10-15 22:22:16 lggr has joined
1414 2012-10-15 22:22:20 AndChat567216 has quit (Quit: Bye)
1415 2012-10-15 22:22:37 <Luke-Jr> TD: nanotube could always lock the page or something for the same effect
1416 2012-10-15 22:22:38 <TD> also i linked to the ETH paper from that faq entry
1417 2012-10-15 22:22:45 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1418 2012-10-15 22:23:08 <TD> and that edit was reversed on the grounds that it was "blatant advertising for a paper which presented an idea that was already known"
1419 2012-10-15 22:23:19 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1420 2012-10-15 22:23:20 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1421 2012-10-15 22:23:34 <gmaxwell> I think for some things like deflation we should go towards minimal answers "here are where people have discussed it. The general ideas are this. But bitcoin is an expirement and time will be the ultimate test."
1422 2012-10-15 22:23:43 <TD> so just generally i think  an FAQ that uses real HTML and is hammered out via code review process, would work better
1423 2012-10-15 22:23:48 <TD> yeah. agreed.
1424 2012-10-15 22:24:18 t7 has joined
1425 2012-10-15 22:24:22 <gmaxwell> E.g. lets avoid getting into fighting about economic stuff in the faq. Lay out the broad ideas and give pointers and try to avoid making any furhter promises. :)
1426 2012-10-15 22:24:32 <gmaxwell> hah further.
1427 2012-10-15 22:26:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1428 2012-10-15 22:26:27 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1429 2012-10-15 22:26:43 <TD> the hashpower thread is sad
1430 2012-10-15 22:27:08 <gmaxwell> where is this?
1431 2012-10-15 22:27:28 pecket has joined
1432 2012-10-15 22:27:36 <TD> i trolled it a bit
1433 2012-10-15 22:27:36 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118069.0
1434 2012-10-15 22:27:41 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1435 2012-10-15 22:27:46 <gmaxwell> (I mostly only read /tech  unless I get complaints in mining or someone points me to something)
1436 2012-10-15 22:27:47 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118069.40;topicseen
1437 2012-10-15 22:28:14 <TD> "So far I'm happy with the service and it's on par with Gpumax.  I don't really see the sensationalizing, alarmist talk about these services.  I've pointed my BFL Single crunching away at 800mhash/s and honestly as a miner I do not in any way shape or form care where my hashes go. "
1438 2012-10-15 22:28:19 <TD> "Don't get me wrong, I support Bitcoin but I also go where the money is."
1439 2012-10-15 22:28:55 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1440 2012-10-15 22:28:57 <TD> http://www.regretsy.com/2012/09/10/barack-obama-is-tired-of-your-shit/
1441 2012-10-15 22:29:11 <gmaxwell> yea, these threads make me regret being honest. So many people just _begging_ to be ripped off and to enable random strangers to rip off others.
1442 2012-10-15 22:29:16 lggr has joined
1443 2012-10-15 22:29:26 <gmaxwell> Interest in that stuff _after_ clipse poofed with everyone's coin.
1444 2012-10-15 22:29:46 <gmaxwell> (Clipse, goat, and GPUmax were the prior most notable parties paying suspiciously high PPS rates for mining)
1445 2012-10-15 22:30:17 <TD> how did they do that? it was backed by the ponzi scheme?
1446 2012-10-15 22:31:06 <gmaxwell> Clipse stopped paying at the same time as pirate shut down. My personal best guess is that he was fronting zeekrewards.
1447 2012-10-15 22:31:28 <gmaxwell> Of course, they won't disclose their methods— or they give confused and illogical answers.
1448 2012-10-15 22:32:04 <TD> i guess it's possible that ASICs will make it harder to run these sorts of services
1449 2012-10-15 22:32:06 <gmaxwell> When I pressed goat about it on the forums he put up a couple hundred BTC bounty to "find" evidence connecting me to unlawful activities.
1450 2012-10-15 22:32:24 <TD> i suppose it's harder to proxy work if you have to serve up new work every few milliseconds
1451 2012-10-15 22:32:28 <gmaxwell> (he pulled it down after I started trying to collect on it!)
1452 2012-10-15 22:32:38 <TD> lol
1453 2012-10-15 22:32:49 <gmaxwell> TD: nope, the pools are solving that problem in any case, with local work creation.
1454 2012-10-15 22:33:35 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1455 2012-10-15 22:34:11 <TD> oh, right. they give you a coinbase to modify. you can't see the other transactions.
1456 2012-10-15 22:34:22 <gmaxwell> Right.
1457 2012-10-15 22:35:00 <gmaxwell> Well, alternatively they could offer getblocktemplate— luke's pool (and pool software) does— and his miner talks to it; which creates transparency at least.
1458 2012-10-15 22:35:00 copumpkin has joined
1459 2012-10-15 22:36:08 lggr has joined
1460 2012-10-15 22:37:55 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1461 2012-10-15 22:39:18 vampireb has joined
1462 2012-10-15 22:40:24 <BCB> FYI this transaction still has 0 comfirmations "48b0d02003a926d6db7fceb39b3acf5b43e9f65dbc03718883c05626dbfb75b6"
1463 2012-10-15 22:41:00 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1464 2012-10-15 22:41:41 <BCB> sent 2012-15-10 15:43:52  EST or about 3 hours ago
1465 2012-10-15 22:41:48 lggr has joined
1466 2012-10-15 22:41:51 <BCB> any was to track where these coins migh tbe
1467 2012-10-15 22:42:07 <Luke-Jr> blockchain.info's never heard of it
1468 2012-10-15 22:43:06 <BCB> Sorry we could not find any blocks or transactions matching this hash
1469 2012-10-15 22:43:21 agricocb has joined
1470 2012-10-15 22:46:18 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1471 2012-10-15 22:48:02 <BCB> Luke-Jr: any way to trace it
1472 2012-10-15 22:49:01 AlexWaters has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1473 2012-10-15 22:50:35 <vampireb> well what did you use to send it? your local client?
1474 2012-10-15 22:50:53 lggr has joined
1475 2012-10-15 22:53:01 <gmaxwell> BCB: did you use the reference client to generate it?
1476 2012-10-15 22:53:12 t7 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9)
1477 2012-10-15 22:53:33 <jgarzik> BCB: go to http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/txlist/ and look for your TX id.  if it is not listed, it probably did not make it to the outside world.
1478 2012-10-15 22:53:42 rcorreia has joined
1479 2012-10-15 22:53:44 <jgarzik> BCB: perhaps due to insufficient fees?  were you sending a tiny amount?
1480 2012-10-15 22:54:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: stock client can't do that (insufficient fees) except via raw transactions.
1481 2012-10-15 22:55:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: -settxfee
1482 2012-10-15 22:55:23 <gmaxwell> Again, it can't result in insufficient fees for relaying.
1483 2012-10-15 22:55:28 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1484 2012-10-15 22:55:45 <gmaxwell> you can set it to zero all you want, it'll still force a the relay fee if it itself wouldn't relay it.
1485 2012-10-15 22:56:02 <gmaxwell> the GUI asks but if you say no— no transaction.
1486 2012-10-15 22:56:21 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1487 2012-10-15 22:56:38 <BCB> I'm using "version" : 70003,
1488 2012-10-15 22:56:57 <gmaxwell> From bitcoin.org?
1489 2012-10-15 22:57:12 <BCB> yes
1490 2012-10-15 22:57:19 <BCB> send 7.09
1491 2012-10-15 22:57:23 <gmaxwell> In any case, can you open the debug console and type getrawtransaction 48b0d02003a926d6db7fceb39b3acf5b43e9f65dbc03718883c05626dbfb75b6  an then pastebin what it spits back?
1492 2012-10-15 22:57:52 <MC1984> heh greg nearly said fuhrer, total freudian slip, atlas was right!
1493 2012-10-15 22:57:53 tg has joined
1494 2012-10-15 22:59:31 Tril has joined
1495 2012-10-15 23:00:17 lggr has joined
1496 2012-10-15 23:00:38 <BCB> http://pastebin.com/g31tP0Dp
1497 2012-10-15 23:01:07 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1498 2012-10-15 23:02:43 B0g4r7 has joined
1499 2012-10-15 23:02:47 <gmaxwell> BCB: is that really it? it ended with 5626?
1500 2012-10-15 23:03:17 <BCB> no wait
1501 2012-10-15 23:03:51 optimator_ has joined
1502 2012-10-15 23:04:05 <BCB> http://pastebin.com/mR35eYPw
1503 2012-10-15 23:04:19 <BCB> ends in 7ff888ac00000000
1504 2012-10-15 23:04:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1505 2012-10-15 23:04:51 <gmaxwell> it's not all making it into the pastebin
1506 2012-10-15 23:05:40 <gmaxwell> oh nevermind
1507 2012-10-15 23:06:38 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1508 2012-10-15 23:07:04 lggr has joined
1509 2012-10-15 23:09:12 <gmaxwell> well, it's spending inputs I know nothing about.
1510 2012-10-15 23:09:27 <gmaxwell> BCB: do you place dice?
1511 2012-10-15 23:09:55 <BCB> play dice?
1512 2012-10-15 23:09:57 <BCB> no
1513 2012-10-15 23:10:27 <BCB> i imported and exported a few private keys
1514 2012-10-15 23:10:56 <gmaxwell> do you have multiple unconfirmed transactions in your wallet?
1515 2012-10-15 23:11:17 noagendamarket has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1516 2012-10-15 23:11:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1517 2012-10-15 23:13:17 noagendamarket has joined
1518 2012-10-15 23:13:46 lggr has joined
1519 2012-10-15 23:13:48 <gmaxwell> the reason I ask is because you're spending transactions my node hasn't seen.. which should only happen if they're outputs you wrote yourself.
1520 2012-10-15 23:13:59 enolan has joined
1521 2012-10-15 23:14:05 <gmaxwell> (you meaning your client)
1522 2012-10-15 23:17:54 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1523 2012-10-15 23:20:35 lggr has joined
1524 2012-10-15 23:23:43 <BCB> gmaxwell: this is the first one I've seen
1525 2012-10-15 23:24:08 <BCB> gmaxwell: no, there are not others
1526 2012-10-15 23:24:57 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1527 2012-10-15 23:25:08 <BCB> gmaxwell:  I'm using a php program to generate keypairs
1528 2012-10-15 23:25:22 <BCB> and importing those private keys to bitcoind
1529 2012-10-15 23:26:00 Raziel__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1530 2012-10-15 23:26:12 <gmaxwell> can you paste me the getrawtransaction 2b7a3a4d24e05d1b0a4017835fb66044025d8e9be9b3d56c7a26312384b0bbf0
1531 2012-10-15 23:26:24 <BCB> gmaswell: I also did a few multisig transac
1532 2012-10-15 23:26:30 <BCB> tions
1533 2012-10-15 23:27:35 lggr has joined
1534 2012-10-15 23:28:06 <BCB> gmaxwell:http://pastebin.com/X2wTs0sQ
1535 2012-10-15 23:28:50 <gmaxwell> okay, that one spends cc2b8a0335b8af49c49ae94aea1a97c959922591848c94b0611d74a85b2b3f48 that my node knows nothiing about ...
1536 2012-10-15 23:29:01 <gmaxwell> can you getrawtransaction cc2b8a0335b8af49c49ae94aea1a97c959922591848c94b0611d74a85b2b3f48 ?
1537 2012-10-15 23:31:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1538 2012-10-15 23:32:44 <lianj>  ERROR: ConnectInputs() : 2b7a3a4d24e05d1b0a4017835fb66044025d8e9be9b3d56c7a26312384b0bbf0 prev tx already used at (nFile=1, nBlockPos=1422618605, nTxPos=1422620633)
1539 2012-10-15 23:33:04 JZavala has joined
1540 2012-10-15 23:33:19 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1541 2012-10-15 23:33:26 <gmaxwell> BCB: you ever get paid by coinbase during their free coin for signing up thing?
1542 2012-10-15 23:34:04 alexmat has joined
1543 2012-10-15 23:34:30 lggr has joined
1544 2012-10-15 23:35:35 <MC1984> i dont get this hashpower buying and selling stuff
1545 2012-10-15 23:36:06 <MC1984> how can it ever be more profitable to sell hashes than to just use them to mine
1546 2012-10-15 23:36:26 <BCB> gmaxwell: no
1547 2012-10-15 23:36:43 <jgarzik> MC1984: (1) if you want to mine a non-standard transaction, (2) if you want to launder money, exchanging dirty coins for clean
1548 2012-10-15 23:37:09 <jgarzik> I'd love to know how to enable the first without the second
1549 2012-10-15 23:37:33 <MC1984> oh
1550 2012-10-15 23:37:43 <amiller> Luke-Jr, wtf "networkserver" is just more crap piled on top of asyncore
1551 2012-10-15 23:37:45 <MC1984> not more profitable, but has ancilliary uses
1552 2012-10-15 23:37:47 <amiller> Luke-Jr, what about pynode doesn't work in python3?
1553 2012-10-15 23:37:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: (3) you're just a scammer who is going to run with the funds or otherwise invest the float in questionable 'investments'
1554 2012-10-15 23:37:49 <amiller> also what features does eloipool have that pynode doesn't? maybe it won't be too hard to merge our efforts..
1555 2012-10-15 23:37:53 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1556 2012-10-15 23:38:13 <gmaxwell> amiller: eloipool doesn't implement a bitcoin node.
1557 2012-10-15 23:38:55 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1558 2012-10-15 23:39:01 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1559 2012-10-15 23:39:08 <BCB> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/PvNBf7MX
1560 2012-10-15 23:39:58 <amiller> nvm i misread the conversation above and thought someone was complaining about eloipool and pynode being two different versions duplicating effort
1561 2012-10-15 23:40:01 <BCB> gmaxwell: that last transaction was probably made on a bitcoind 3 or four versions ago
1562 2012-10-15 23:40:14 <jgarzik> pynode still lacks some of the heretofor unneeded block building validation checks
1563 2012-10-15 23:40:17 <amiller> anyway that's still the case regarding networkserver
1564 2012-10-15 23:40:36 <gmaxwell> BCB: and how many confirmations does it have?
1565 2012-10-15 23:40:43 <gmaxwell> and what is your current block count?
1566 2012-10-15 23:41:18 lggr has joined
1567 2012-10-15 23:41:34 <BCB> gmaxwell: "confirmations" : 31797,
1568 2012-10-15 23:41:48 <alexmat> wtb bitcoins
1569 2012-10-15 23:42:21 <jgarzik> TD says he rewrote http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
1570 2012-10-15 23:42:38 <BCB> gmaxwell: getblockcount 203465
1571 2012-10-15 23:43:15 <gmaxwell> so you're telling me that cc2b8a0335b8af49c49ae94aea1a97c959922591848c94b0611d74a85b2b3f48 is in your wallet, and shows "confirmations" : 31797?
1572 2012-10-15 23:43:42 <gmaxwell> oh crap.
1573 2012-10-15 23:43:52 <gmaxwell> I've been using an ultraprune node to diagnose stuff.
1574 2012-10-15 23:45:22 <lianj> :P
1575 2012-10-15 23:46:16 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1576 2012-10-15 23:46:27 <Luke-Jr> amiller: networkserver borrows one trivial function from asyncore - you can copy it verbatim if you really want to - and works quite well
1577 2012-10-15 23:47:03 <Luke-Jr> amiller: pynode's dependence on an obsolete python version is part of why I don't have much interest in it - before I use it, you can be sure I'll probably fix it up so it works with current versions :P
1578 2012-10-15 23:47:23 <BCB> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/Z9YEEgMf
1579 2012-10-15 23:47:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Eloipool does implement a very minimal bitcoin node, but it doesn't work (nor is it used)
1580 2012-10-15 23:47:51 vampireb has joined
1581 2012-10-15 23:47:51 <gmaxwell> BCB: okay so cc2b8a0335b8af49c49ae94aea1a97c959922591848c94b0611d74a85b2b3f48 output 1 was spent by some other transaction than your 2b7a3a4d24e05d1b0a4017835fb66044025d8e9be9b3d56c7a26312384b0bbf0 which attempts to spen it
1582 2012-10-15 23:47:58 <gmaxwell> BCB: how many confirmations do you see on 2b7a3a4d24e05d1b0a4017835fb66044025d8e9be9b3d56c7a26312384b0bbf0?
1583 2012-10-15 23:48:01 <amiller> Luke-Jr, how much dependence is there? i haven't tried pynode on python3 at all (nor i have i used python3 for anything else either)
1584 2012-10-15 23:48:04 <Luke-Jr> amiller: also note Eloipool is MUCH older than pynode ;P
1585 2012-10-15 23:48:16 lggr has joined
1586 2012-10-15 23:48:20 <Luke-Jr> amiller: I haven't tried it yet, but at the very least it uses print as a statement which isn't supported anymore
1587 2012-10-15 23:48:29 <lianj> gmaxwell:  2b7a3a4d24e05d1b0a4017835fb66044025d8e9be9b3d56c7a26312384b0bbf0 prev tx already used at (nFile=1, nBlockPos=1422618605, nTxPos=1422620633)
1588 2012-10-15 23:48:37 <BCB> gmaxwell:  "confirmations" : 0,
1589 2012-10-15 23:48:55 <gmaxwell> BCB: oh, I thought you said you didn't have any other unconfirmed ones.
1590 2012-10-15 23:49:00 <nanotube> gmaxwell: TD[gone] jgarzik: well... we could start a separate 'technical' wiki, with invite-only membership, so that no random wiki troll can revert your carefully thought out articles.
1591 2012-10-15 23:49:28 <jgarzik> did someone troll-stomp the wiki?
1592 2012-10-15 23:49:33 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: I think MediaWiki lets you set pages for "group X only"
1593 2012-10-15 23:49:34 <BCB> that is only the second one I've seen  - had no idea....
1594 2012-10-15 23:49:51 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: TD apparently has been having problems making corrections to the FAQ
1595 2012-10-15 23:50:49 <BCB> gmaxwell: these transactions were made when I first installed linux bitcoind and was trying to understand accounts
1596 2012-10-15 23:50:59 <BCB> so there were lots of moves etc...
1597 2012-10-15 23:51:04 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: acl extensions for mediawiki suck and are poorly maintained generally.
1598 2012-10-15 23:51:06 <nanotube> Luke-Jr: ah hmm, well, guess we'll need someone to create a 'dev' group. wonder if i have perms to do it.
1599 2012-10-15 23:51:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought it supported that by default
1600 2012-10-15 23:51:49 <nanotube> or... well whatever you guys decide. i'll not take any action until y'all figure out what you want to do. :)
1601 2012-10-15 23:51:57 <gmaxwell> BCB: well somehow you spent the output of that confirmed one and then double spent it with the other one .. this usually happens from running the same wallet on multiple machines.
1602 2012-10-15 23:52:09 <gmaxwell> (or potentially importing the same private keys into multiple machines)
1603 2012-10-15 23:52:22 <gmaxwell> if you do that you'll continually screw up your wallets and end up with double spends and such.
1604 2012-10-15 23:52:45 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1605 2012-10-15 23:52:45 <BCB> do what?  Move wallets or inport private keys
1606 2012-10-15 23:53:15 <gmaxwell> run a copy of a wallet or a private key on multiple systems.
1607 2012-10-15 23:53:45 <gmaxwell> because one will spend a coin out from under the other one.
1608 2012-10-15 23:54:25 <BCB> gmaxwell: is it possible to "delete" keys from one machine when I dump and import into another?
1609 2012-10-15 23:54:55 <BCB> gmaxwell: to avoid this?
1610 2012-10-15 23:55:09 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1611 2012-10-15 23:55:11 lggr has joined
1612 2012-10-15 23:55:39 <gmaxwell> No, because that potentially leaves transactions with dangling sources of funds. e.g. if a system previously spent a coin that now it thinks it never owned.. it will be quite confused.
1613 2012-10-15 23:55:47 optimator_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1614 2012-10-15 23:56:18 <gmaxwell> (less harmfully than the shared keys— but e.g. I'd expect it to goof up balances)
1615 2012-10-15 23:57:18 asuk has joined
1616 2012-10-15 23:57:28 <BCB> gmaxwell: when you say system to you mean server, bitcoind, box?
1617 2012-10-15 23:58:42 <jgarzik> it is so embarrassingly sad when pynode is faster than bitcoind
1618 2012-10-15 23:58:50 agath has joined
1619 2012-10-15 23:59:16 <gmaxwell> BCB: multiple copies of bitcoind.
1620 2012-10-15 23:59:27 lggr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1621 2012-10-15 23:59:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: faster? did you get your script/signature validation going fast?