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   4 2012-10-16 00:01:54 <BCB> gmaxwell: is there a tool or cmd's I can you to trace these back if it happens again?
   5 2012-10-16 00:01:55 <BCB> Thx
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   7 2012-10-16 00:02:25 <BCB> gmaxwell: also I had an issue of the sum of my accounts not adding up the the amount of getbalance
   8 2012-10-16 00:02:30 <BCB> could this be why?
   9 2012-10-16 00:02:47 <gmaxwell> Yes, or some related issue from the same trigger activities.
  10 2012-10-16 00:03:22 <gmaxwell> Fixing this is a pain. Since you're using accounts you can't use salvagewallet to reconstruct without losing account data.
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  13 2012-10-16 00:05:11 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: pynode uses leveldb + blockchain flat file now, while BDB leaves bitcoind thrashing the disk at 100%
  14 2012-10-16 00:05:30 <jgarzik> bitcoind w/ ultraprune is much faster than pynode, as expected
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  16 2012-10-16 00:06:32 <jgarzik> but pynode HEAD is now at least 5-10x faster than bitcoin HEAD, for block downloads from a fast remote node, here
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  18 2012-10-16 00:11:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: re: pull-tester: dont get too excited about needing something huge, once I move dnsseed (hopefully next few days: bitcoinj-based dnsseeder coming together) it should be able to handle a lot more (a slight upgrade should make it handle its current load without such lag
  19 2012-10-16 00:12:00 <BlueMatt> TD[gone]: I upgraded bitcoinj myself, there was about a 2-line change that was required, but it seems to work fine
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  22 2012-10-16 00:14:35 <BlueMatt> TD[gone]: also, PeerGroup scales pretty reasonably well to opening 10 connections/sec with 50-80 connections in flight at any time
  23 2012-10-16 00:16:10 <BlueMatt> TD[gone]: cpu usage fluctuates but, except during the h2-heavy stats-printing statements, its <10% on a exynos 4412 quad (gs III processor)
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  26 2012-10-16 00:25:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: does this mean BitcoinJ is growing a sensible peer manager, and losing the reliance on DNS seeds?
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  28 2012-10-16 00:27:07 <Joric> BitcoinJ api is terribly restrictive i had to use reflection to access some structures )
  29 2012-10-16 00:27:49 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  30 2012-10-16 00:28:12 <Joric> http://gyazo.com/809c3801004e21191670d16900cfecd3
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  38 2012-10-16 00:35:50 <gavinandresen> lol:  http://xkcd.com/1121/
  39 2012-10-16 00:36:07 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: sadly, no
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  41 2012-10-16 00:37:01 <BlueMatt> Joric: what'd you need reflection for on that?
  42 2012-10-16 00:37:23 <Joric> BlueMatt, ip addresses, for instance
  43 2012-10-16 00:37:50 <BlueMatt> hmm? shouldt need reflection there?
  44 2012-10-16 00:38:05 <Joric> BlueMatt, well it wasn't possible back then not sure about now
  45 2012-10-16 00:38:45 <Joric> TD did a good job on incapsulating whatever possible
  46 2012-10-16 00:38:48 <BlueMatt> certainly not true now
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  48 2012-10-16 00:39:47 <BlueMatt> InetSocketAddress address = peer.getAddress().toSocketAddress();
  49 2012-10-16 00:39:54 <Joric> maybe client versions i don't remember really
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  51 2012-10-16 00:40:42 <BlueMatt> peer.getVersionMessage()
  52 2012-10-16 00:41:12 <Joric> i used bitcoinj-0.3
  53 2012-10-16 00:41:24 <BlueMatt> well, this is 0.6, I have nfc bout anything that old
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  56 2012-10-16 00:42:39 <alexmat> wtb bitcoins
  57 2012-10-16 00:42:51 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-tc
  58 2012-10-16 00:42:54 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-otc
  59 2012-10-16 00:42:54 <alexmat> GO BRONCOS
  60 2012-10-16 00:43:09 alexmat is now known as alexmat`goBRONCO
  61 2012-10-16 00:43:19 <vazakl> u got any koins up in this joint
  62 2012-10-16 00:43:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, thats one of the better ones
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  69 2012-10-16 00:54:49 <Joric> BlueMatt, yeah, peer had no getAddress() back then i just checked
  70 2012-10-16 00:54:59 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok
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  72 2012-10-16 00:57:00 <Joric> either TD forgot to write a getter or it was intentional
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 154 2012-10-16 03:31:29 <amiller> ugh i have a blk000*.dat that seems to have an error in it or at least a disk corruption
 155 2012-10-16 03:31:59 <amiller> i tried to use bitcointools to find it but got stuck because bitcointools relies on blkindex.dat and i'm not sure if that's where the error is
 156 2012-10-16 03:32:31 <amiller> so now i'm finally switching to pynode for my serialization and block scanning needs
 157 2012-10-16 03:33:31 optimator has joined
 158 2012-10-16 03:33:34 <amiller> i'm hoping i can find the offending chunk of data and just overwrite it with better bits
 159 2012-10-16 03:34:23 <phantomcircuit> amiller, good bits
 160 2012-10-16 03:35:40 <amiller> only the finest bits
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 175 2012-10-16 04:06:11 <gmaxwell> There, testnet now has a block with 6287 transactions.
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 193 2012-10-16 04:41:35 <alexmat`goBRONCO> wts 500$ newegg giftcard for 300$, also selling bitcoins at 10$ a pop, cheapest in the market. Bulk buyers invited! also selling nba2k13 for 25$ a pop have 10
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 197 2012-10-16 04:43:02 <alexmat`goBRONCO> wts 500$ newegg giftcard for 300$, also selling bitcoins at 10$ a pop, cheapest in the market. Bulk buyers invited! also selling nba2k13 for 25$ a pop have 10
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 207 2012-10-16 04:57:51 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: if you're poking at testnet... a block with the largest transaction possible would be useful
 208 2012-10-16 04:58:09 <jgarzik> As close as one can get to 1MB
 209 2012-10-16 04:58:24 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well, was really poking at p2pool, testnet was a side effect. But I'll add one of those too.
 210 2012-10-16 04:58:42 <jgarzik> thanks
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 213 2012-10-16 04:59:26 <amiller> jgarzik, pynode's serialization is all your own code, right?
 214 2012-10-16 04:59:56 <amiller> what would you think about packaging it up with a setup.py and __init__ and such for use as a blockchain scanning/correction tool?
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 217 2012-10-16 05:00:58 <jgarzik> amiller: Original author was ArtForz.  He wrote all the ser/deser code for the major data structures, and then wrapped an asyncore "half a node" around it.  Posted it on pastebin, with a public domain license.
 218 2012-10-16 05:01:08 <amiller> ahh.
 219 2012-10-16 05:01:17 <jgarzik> amiller: yes, the bitcoin/ directory was designed to be packaged eventually
 220 2012-10-16 05:01:45 <Diablo-D3> http://boingboing.net/2012/10/15/winners-of-the-pirate-flix-vid.html
 221 2012-10-16 05:01:50 <jgarzik> amiller: hoped to call it "python-bitcoin", and make it a separate repo from pynode
 222 2012-10-16 05:02:14 <jgarzik> amiller: then any number of apps may use python-bitcoin for core encoding, signature and script work, ...
 223 2012-10-16 05:02:45 <spreelanka> where is the bitcoind main() ? is it hidden in a boost macro?
 224 2012-10-16 05:02:57 lggr has joined
 225 2012-10-16 05:03:06 <amiller> jgarzik, it reads blk00*.dat but notably has absolutely nothing to say about bdb blkindex.dat
 226 2012-10-16 05:03:21 <amiller> that's in contrast to bitcointools
 227 2012-10-16 05:03:34 <amiller> is that an artifact of your selection from artforz's pastebin?
 228 2012-10-16 05:03:55 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 229 2012-10-16 05:04:01 <jgarzik> amiller: don't understand last question.  See pynode's README, first paragraph.
 230 2012-10-16 05:04:11 <jgarzik> amiller: check out "mini-node" branch to see original-ish code
 231 2012-10-16 05:04:46 <jgarzik> README links to original pastebin
 232 2012-10-16 05:04:49 * amiller rtfm
 233 2012-10-16 05:05:07 <doublec> spreelanka: init.cpp
 234 2012-10-16 05:05:43 <spreelanka> doublec: AppInit() right?
 235 2012-10-16 05:05:49 <spreelanka> kk, thx
 236 2012-10-16 05:06:04 <doublec> np
 237 2012-10-16 05:06:11 <doublec> spreelanka: main calls that, yes
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 240 2012-10-16 05:10:20 <gmaxwell> hm.. decoderaw transaction doesn't like it when ou call it with really long scriptpubkeys..
 241 2012-10-16 05:11:25 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ^ boingboing url
 242 2012-10-16 05:11:26 <Diablo-D3> watch video
 243 2012-10-16 05:12:29 <amiller> i'm sure this is a dumb question, but it looks like there's 8 bytes of bullshit in between the blocks in blk*.dat? blkindex skips over it
 244 2012-10-16 05:12:36 <amiller> nvm i'll just check how bitcoind writes it
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 246 2012-10-16 05:14:17 <gmaxwell> It's the capture token. ('version bytes')
 247 2012-10-16 05:15:15 zebedee_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 248 2012-10-16 05:15:23 <amiller> (i'll just guess that a capture token means what i think it means)
 249 2012-10-16 05:15:40 <amiller> my guess is it's equivalent to the sync markers used in apache sequence files
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 251 2012-10-16 05:16:06 <amiller> if you have local corruption you can skip over a bunch of data by scanning for the next 'capture token' and keep reading frm there
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 253 2012-10-16 05:17:47 <gmaxwell> yep.
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 255 2012-10-16 05:18:48 <amiller> i don't suppose any bitcoind code makes use of that?
 256 2012-10-16 05:19:11 <amiller> if an error in blk*.dat is detected, an efficient way to recover would be to ask a peer for a fresh copy and just append
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 258 2012-10-16 05:19:51 <amiller> i meant to say blk0*.dat to exclude blkindex.dat
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 261 2012-10-16 05:23:24 <amiller> besides apache sequence files, http uses a similar scheme for multipart encodings
 262 2012-10-16 05:23:41 <amiller> 'capture token' returns no hits.. there has to be a generic name for this?
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 269 2012-10-16 05:32:13 <gmaxwell> darnit.. 65414 nops before I get 'bitcoind: Argument list too long'
 270 2012-10-16 05:32:51 <gmaxwell> and that txn is only a bit over a half meg.
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 273 2012-10-16 05:34:50 <maaku> Luke-Jr why do you have to be so unconforming?
 274 2012-10-16 05:35:02 <maaku> tabs in a Python file.. what heresy! ;)
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 283 2012-10-16 05:51:15 <gmaxwell> https://xkcd.com/
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 286 2012-10-16 05:51:34 <gmaxwell> https://xkcd.com/1121/ (better link, for the logs)
 287 2012-10-16 05:53:02 <gmaxwell> 0_o
 288 2012-10-16 05:53:03 <gmaxwell> 10/16/12 05:41:15 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : not enough fees 43aa7e69262e1899230f4fae378cf36af5d272760a863cc896d6eb5d5a0129bf, 100000000 < 2100000000000000
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 290 2012-10-16 05:55:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: heh, was that the mega-fat testnet tx?
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 292 2012-10-16 05:57:07 <gmaxwell> okay, I have a 999999 byte transaction in my mempool now.. thats the largest it would take. but it's not minable. :-/
 293 2012-10-16 05:58:11 <gmaxwell> well this is sort of annoying. I can't just reduce the size until it take it because it'll take things that can't be mined.
 294 2012-10-16 05:58:44 <gmaxwell> this is also a "you can create a txn that can't possibly be confirmed" 'vulnerability' but fortunately the normal fee rules are protective.
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 298 2012-10-16 06:00:37 <gmaxwell> well crap, now its in my wallet too. Okay. will worry about this tomorrow.
 299 2012-10-16 06:01:09 <gmaxwell> (I decided to put all the bloat in the scriptpubkey since it should be useful as an ultraprune test too)
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 366 2012-10-16 08:04:23 <jeremias> would it make more sense for the importprivkey command to return the bitcoin address if the operation was successful
 367 2012-10-16 08:04:30 <jeremias> now it returns nothing
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 381 2012-10-16 08:29:59 <sipa> amiller: -loadblock uses those markers
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 497 2012-10-16 12:05:02 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I conform to common sense? :P
 498 2012-10-16 12:06:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: is there any reason to prefer pow(2, floor(log2(ma, 2))) vs using integer bitshift ops to implement the same without FPU?
 499 2012-10-16 12:07:32 <_dr> the former is much slower :)
 500 2012-10-16 12:09:04 <_dr> pow will translate into exp, and the gcc version sucks, uses like 150 flops
 501 2012-10-16 12:09:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: is that code to strip all bit the highest bit from an integer?
 502 2012-10-16 12:09:44 <sipa> *but
 503 2012-10-16 12:09:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: more or less, rounds down to nearest power of two
 504 2012-10-16 12:10:10 <Luke-Jr> _dr: ouch
 505 2012-10-16 12:11:12 <sipa> http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#RoundUpPowerOf2
 506 2012-10-16 12:17:52 <JyZyXEL> is there any description of the current coinbase format in wiki?
 507 2012-10-16 12:18:40 <Luke-Jr> BIP 32
 508 2012-10-16 12:24:25 <sipa> 34
 509 2012-10-16 12:24:53 <JyZyXEL> 34 describes some modifications but it doesn't have the full description of the format
 510 2012-10-16 12:25:14 <sipa> there are no restrictions except for what BIP34 says, and the network rules
 511 2012-10-16 12:25:27 <sipa> (and the network rules say: at least 2 bytes, at most 100 bytes)
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 513 2012-10-16 12:26:32 <senseless> When I send a transaction from my wallet; does that transaction get broadcast to every connected peer simultaneously, one by one, or how does that work?
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 520 2012-10-16 12:49:45 <kjj_> senseless: one by one.  there is no other way it could be on a unicast system
 521 2012-10-16 12:50:26 <Luke-Jr> kjj_: well, it would be nice if bitcoind did it async
 522 2012-10-16 12:51:12 <senseless> Is there any way to set a priority on addresses for communication currently?
 523 2012-10-16 12:52:35 <kjj_> Luke-Jr: multicast would be nice too, but for the foreseeable future, it will remain sequential
 524 2012-10-16 12:52:56 <kjj_> senseless: no
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 526 2012-10-16 12:55:28 <_dr> doing it async seems like a good idea
 527 2012-10-16 12:56:08 <senseless> My thing is just that i'm running a node on a server that all my miners and what not connect to
 528 2012-10-16 12:56:16 <senseless> and it's got a couple hundred peers
 529 2012-10-16 12:56:34 <senseless> I'd like it to send me new block notifications and transaciton notifications before everyone else
 530 2012-10-16 12:56:36 <senseless> and vice versa
 531 2012-10-16 12:56:52 <senseless> I might end up taking extra time to download a new block from a peer in antartica
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 533 2012-10-16 12:57:35 <senseless> And end up with a bunch of stale shares which may have been winners on the new block, or winners on the old block
 534 2012-10-16 12:57:55 <senseless> Instead of downloading it from the peer with a 5ms ping
 535 2012-10-16 12:59:13 <senseless> either unicast or multicast would solve that problem as well
 536 2012-10-16 13:01:55 <kjj_> well, the code to relay new blocks starts around line 1919 of main.cpp
 537 2012-10-16 13:02:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: personally I prefer to CLZ to reond own to the nearest power of two. Certantly doing it with float is weird and potentially problematic. Is the code you're asking about performance critical? If so: 1<<sizeof(int)*8-__builtin_clz(x)-1  (in a macro, with ifdefs to get the windows builtin and an ansi c fallback (search opus code for EC_ILOG) is what you want, since the clz is single cycle on x86.
 538 2012-10-16 13:03:08 <kjj_> looks like BOOST_FOREACH has a fixed order, so if you want to add a priority value, a method to set it, and a way to sort the list, it should do what you want
 539 2012-10-16 13:04:39 <gmaxwell> senseless: running a couple hundred peers on a node isn't a grand iea.
 540 2012-10-16 13:04:44 <gmaxwell> er idea either.
 541 2012-10-16 13:06:10 <senseless> My thought was that the more peers I have, the faster I will be notified of transactions or new blocks
 542 2012-10-16 13:06:14 <senseless> Is that incorrect?
 543 2012-10-16 13:08:13 <gmaxwell> senseless: Blocks spread exponentially in the network, I expect there to be greatly diminishing marginal returns from more peers. At the same time, we relay sequentially, and so the chances that you'll hit a slow peer early on and be greatly delayed in realying are increased.
 544 2012-10-16 13:08:59 <gmaxwell> You'll also burn more cpu time chattering with nodes and feeding network edges. ... and if you've hacked the code to increase the output count you're also harming the network.
 545 2012-10-16 13:09:18 <kjj_> gmaxwell: for incoming notifications, more probably is better
 546 2012-10-16 13:09:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it's not, I was just curious <.<
 547 2012-10-16 13:10:42 <gmaxwell> kjj_: "more probably is better" isn't incompatible with "greatly diminishing marginal returns" .. and it depends on what you're doing.
 548 2012-10-16 13:11:20 <kjj_> heh, I'm just saying the slow node problem only hits for outgoing.  for incoming connections, having more of them increases the chances that you'll be early in one of their lists
 549 2012-10-16 13:11:32 <kjj_> er, incoming messages rather
 550 2012-10-16 13:11:55 <gmaxwell> My mining nodes run ~7 connections. Connections to each other, connections to several known miners, and connections to my public nodes which are normal listerns and have on the order of 80 connections these days.
 551 2012-10-16 13:13:24 <gmaxwell> kjj_: Yes, it increases it, but it should increase it only slightly, while at the same time burning a lot more bandwidth and cpu, and making outbound problems more likely (very important if mining).
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 557 2012-10-16 13:21:22 <gmaxwell> I noticed in the latest rust language announcement they mention that they've changed all their hashtables to use something calle siphash (apparently a fast hash function optimized for small inputs), e.g. for complexity attack avoidance.
 558 2012-10-16 13:21:43 <gmaxwell> Perhaps something we should use the next time we need a fast hash function.
 559 2012-10-16 13:22:34 <gmaxwell> (e.g. for things like addrman's usage, PRF in coin-selection, or attack vulnerable hash tables)
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 565 2012-10-16 13:28:29 <Matt_von_Mises> In the miner tests, do the blocks get added to the genesis block? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/miner_tests.cpp
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 598 2012-10-16 14:24:37 <gmaxwell> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/10/studying_zero-d.html  "We also find that a typical zero-day attack lasts 312 days on average and that, after vulnerabilities are disclosed publicly, the volume of attacks exploiting them increases by up to 5 orders of magnitude."
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 608 2012-10-16 14:48:05 <spreelanka> where are blocks created?
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 610 2012-10-16 14:50:11 <gmaxwell> spreelanka: everwhere.  Can you clarify your question some?
 611 2012-10-16 14:51:14 <spreelanka> gmaxwell: i'm looking for places where the nonces are added that the miner looks for
 612 2012-10-16 14:52:32 <gmaxwell> Er. perhaps this page will be informative to you: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
 613 2012-10-16 14:52:37 <spreelanka> thx
 614 2012-10-16 14:53:08 <gmaxwell> But nonces aren't added, they are fields in varrious locations that get incremented until the hashed header value is low enough to meet the target difficulty.
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 619 2012-10-16 15:11:10 <spreelanka> gmaxwell: ok, thanks, i got caught up reading. that was really helpful, i need to read all the articles in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Technical eventually
 620 2012-10-16 15:11:21 <spreelanka> but i kinda want to learn a bit, experiment, learn a bit, etc
 621 2012-10-16 15:12:02 <spreelanka> so when this happens: if (hash <= hashTarget)
 622 2012-10-16 15:12:28 <spreelanka> we "solved" it, pending CheckWork()?
 623 2012-10-16 15:12:46 <spreelanka> and we go to attempt to claim credit by some means
 624 2012-10-16 15:13:30 <Luke-Jr> O.o
 625 2012-10-16 15:13:32 <Luke-Jr> no
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 627 2012-10-16 15:13:43 <Luke-Jr> CheckWork = (hash <= hashTarget)
 628 2012-10-16 15:13:46 <spreelanka> please, edify me
 629 2012-10-16 15:13:54 <Luke-Jr> and you claim credit BEFORE you start hashing
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 631 2012-10-16 15:14:02 <Luke-Jr> it's the first transaction in the block
 632 2012-10-16 15:14:08 <Luke-Jr> you just write it to pay yourself
 633 2012-10-16 15:14:16 <Luke-Jr> then when that block becomes valid, you have it
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 643 2012-10-16 15:27:15 <spreelanka> luke-jr: i'm looking at it, but it's probably just better to ask: main.cpp:3891 means the miner "succeeded" gains reward, new block on the blockchain?
 644 2012-10-16 15:27:37 <graingert> spreelanka: Lu[press tab]
 645 2012-10-16 15:27:58 <spreelanka> Luke-Jr: ping
 646 2012-10-16 15:27:59 <Luke-Jr> spreelanka: bitcoind is not a miner
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 648 2012-10-16 15:29:43 <spreelanka> Luke-Jr: i just assumed it could because of void static BitcoinMiner(CWallet *pwallet)
 649 2012-10-16 15:29:56 <spreelanka> Luke-Jr: and -gen
 650 2012-10-16 15:30:30 <Luke-Jr> spreelanka: meh, that's deprecated and probably should be removed
 651 2012-10-16 15:30:42 <Luke-Jr> it never finds blocks. maybe on testnet, but even then it's inefficient
 652 2012-10-16 15:31:04 <spreelanka> inefficient is fine, i'm just learning
 653 2012-10-16 15:32:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it works fine on testnet
 654 2012-10-16 15:32:25 <sipa> it works fine on mainnet as well, though it probably takes ages on any existing hardwre
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 656 2012-10-16 15:33:55 <spreelanka> sipa: ok, cool, i'll start from there then, thanks for the help
 657 2012-10-16 15:34:14 <sipa> spreelanka: what is on main.cpp:3891?
 658 2012-10-16 15:34:44 <spreelanka> sipa:  if (hash <= hashTarget)
 659 2012-10-16 15:34:50 <spreelanka> sipa:
 660 2012-10-16 15:35:33 <spreelanka> sipa: the nearby                  // Found a solution
 661 2012-10-16 15:35:43 <sipa> well, what luke said is right: you try to produce a block which pays out to yourself; if the block happens to be valid, it gets broadcasted, and hopefully accepted by the network
 662 2012-10-16 15:35:53 <sipa> there is no "reward" mechanism after block mining
 663 2012-10-16 15:36:20 <Luke-Jr> spreelanka: yes, (hash <= hashTarget) is the goal
 664 2012-10-16 15:37:17 <gmaxwell> 'Mining produces its own reward.'
 665 2012-10-16 15:37:19 <spreelanka> right, you do confirm it locally before broadcasting though, right
 666 2012-10-16 15:37:55 <Luke-Jr> spreelanka: bitcoind accepts your own block as if it's any other untrusted peer
 667 2012-10-16 15:38:03 <spreelanka> once you get below difficulty, you know you have a valid block, and you broadcast it, and if you were first the network accepts it?
 668 2012-10-16 15:38:05 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't *need* to, but that helps resist bugs
 669 2012-10-16 15:38:18 <spreelanka> ok
 670 2012-10-16 15:38:30 <Luke-Jr> above difficulty, below the target; otherwise, yes
 671 2012-10-16 15:38:43 <spreelanka> right, right
 672 2012-10-16 15:38:56 <spreelanka> ok, thanks
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 677 2012-10-16 15:56:42 <helo> do you have to be first? i.e. if you are second your height is the same as the "first" height, right?
 678 2012-10-16 15:59:01 <gmaxwell> helo: what does 'first' mean?
 679 2012-10-16 15:59:17 <gmaxwell> The perception of ordering is not a universal thing; if it were we wouldn't need mining.
 680 2012-10-16 15:59:43 <helo> gmaxwell: most peers have accepted a different miner's block already
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 682 2012-10-16 16:00:10 <gmaxwell> helo: then they'll ignore the 'second' one unless it becomes part of the longest chain.
 683 2012-10-16 16:01:10 <gmaxwell> helo: nodes use that blocks that are part of the longest (sum difficulty) chain. If there are compeating forks with the same length they stick with whatever they heard first..
 684 2012-10-16 16:01:11 <helo> so the second one will be ignored because it is not longer, even though it is the same?
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 687 2012-10-16 16:01:58 <gmaxwell> but in your example you said "most peers" not "all" so it's possible under the most peers assumption that the 'second' to be created might ultimately end up in the longest chain instead of the first.
 688 2012-10-16 16:02:47 <gmaxwell> e.g. if most but not all nodes heard the other one first, then some may take the second instead... If a subsiquent block is found first against the second then that chain becomes longest and the network reorgs onto it.
 689 2012-10-16 16:03:25 <helo> right... thanks
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 702 2012-10-16 16:30:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: how are we looking for 0.7.1 release?  I only see that one potential locking bug, in the -rc1 thread.
 703 2012-10-16 16:30:34 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117874.msg1273313#msg1273313
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 705 2012-10-16 16:32:05 <gavinandresen> I don't see how any of the .1 changes could have introduced that bug (do you?), so I'm inclined to promote rc1 to final.
 706 2012-10-16 16:32:44 <gavinandresen> I sent email to Arklan and Steve to see if they have objections...  I was hoping to be able to test out a more formal QA process.  Ah well.
 707 2012-10-16 16:33:20 <jgarzik> I dunno, as it involves GUI
 708 2012-10-16 16:33:24 <jgarzik> I'm fine for releasing 0.7.1
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 710 2012-10-16 16:34:44 <gmaxwell> Has anyone started a new node from start on 0.7.1rc without bootstrap.dat? Thats one test I didn't bother performing that I've historically done; partially because I expected the people who said they were doing testing to do it and it's sort of a pain because it takes a while.
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 712 2012-10-16 16:38:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: sure, WFM all the time
 713 2012-10-16 16:39:09 <jgarzik> versus using a fast localhost node, the speed is pretty much the same as a file
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 715 2012-10-16 16:39:43 <rdponticelli> kwr
 716 2012-10-16 16:40:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: okay, just making sure that someone bothered doing it! :P I have some nodes running that code... just hadnt purged their chains.
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 730 2012-10-16 17:09:59 <jgarzik> Man, this MPOE-PR sure is an ass.  Would never use his exchange, given the unprofessional behavior, and the other stuff hosted on that site.
 731 2012-10-16 17:10:27 <QuantumQrack> Is it possible to send btc via a google phone #?
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 737 2012-10-16 17:25:40 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: What other stuff?
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 747 2012-10-16 17:59:57 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: crazy pr0n
 748 2012-10-16 18:05:58 <gmaxwell> I recommend using people who have negative rated me on OTC as a strong metric of incompetence. :P
 749 2012-10-16 18:07:04 stevep has joined
 750 2012-10-16 18:12:48 <jeremias> I don't understand why to store porn and a btc stock exchange at the same site :D
 751 2012-10-16 18:12:59 <jeremias> sure improves the image
 752 2012-10-16 18:13:39 <vampireb_> ;;getrating gmaxwell
 753 2012-10-16 18:13:39 <gribble> WARNING: Currently not authenticated. User gmaxwell, rated since Mon Jul 25 10:49:45 2011. Cumulative rating 39, from 19 total ratings. Received ratings: 16 positive, 3 negative. Sent ratings: 7 positive, 12 negative. Details: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=gmaxwell
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 759 2012-10-16 18:23:55 <MC1984> 7.1 already?
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 763 2012-10-16 18:26:57 <BlueMatt> jeremias: save server space - put everything on one server! :)
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 771 2012-10-16 18:42:35 <Diablo-D3> http://www.romneytaxplan.com/
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 774 2012-10-16 18:48:16 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
 775 2012-10-16 18:48:19 <gribble> 23234.92473805663
 776 2012-10-16 18:49:44 <helo> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf bitcoin transaction history analysis by Dorit Ron and Adi Shamir
 777 2012-10-16 18:52:10 <gmaxwell> helo: yes, it's also somewhat incorrect.
 778 2012-10-16 18:52:16 <gmaxwell> Though still interesting.
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 780 2012-10-16 18:52:48 <helo> the "78% of bitcoin in savings accounts" kind of misleading
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 783 2012-10-16 18:53:32 <gmaxwell> E.g. they go on and on the incorrect point that all inputs in a transaction _must_ be owned by the same person by rule of the system.
 784 2012-10-16 18:54:10 ovidiusoft has joined
 785 2012-10-16 18:54:19 <gmaxwell> Not only is that by no means been a rule of the system, it's not even been a safe rule of thumb ever since shared wallet multiuser systems (exchanges and webwallets) have existed.
 786 2012-10-16 18:54:58 <sipa> not to mention explicit coin mixers
 787 2012-10-16 18:55:08 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Oh? But also: so?
 788 2012-10-16 18:56:17 <helo> they are not owned by the same person, but they are controlled by the same person
 789 2012-10-16 18:56:38 <graingert> helo: not even true
 790 2012-10-16 18:56:51 <graingert> helo: you can have a mixing system that multiple people can take part in
 791 2012-10-16 18:57:02 <midnightmagic> helo: That is not true, anymore.
 792 2012-10-16 18:57:05 <sipa> helo: since multisig that is certainly not true anymore
 793 2012-10-16 18:57:15 <helo> what percentage of transactions are multisig?
 794 2012-10-16 18:57:25 <sipa> negligable
 795 2012-10-16 18:57:40 <helo> right... irrelevant from a perspective of how bitcoin is used, because it isn't used in that way
 796 2012-10-16 18:57:46 <midnightmagic> helo: In fact, it is possible for tx which aren't even muiltisig to be created in concert with many people.
 797 2012-10-16 18:58:02 <TD> many things are _possible_ which are not done today
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 799 2012-10-16 18:58:15 <TD> so the papers analysis technique can be both reasonable for today and worthless tomorrow
 800 2012-10-16 18:58:18 <midnightmagic> TD: I (now that I was taught how) do them all the time.
 801 2012-10-16 18:58:19 molecular has joined
 802 2012-10-16 18:58:38 <TD> the widespread usage of share wallets does seem to be a probllem for the authors. also, scraping block explorer. ew.
 803 2012-10-16 18:58:53 <midnightmagic> I do not share my wallet, either.
 804 2012-10-16 18:59:12 <midnightmagic> That is, my privkeys are my own and only I can use them to sign.
 805 2012-10-16 18:59:13 <helo> the analysis they did is pretty valid, given that it says "this is how things worked over this period of time"
 806 2012-10-16 19:00:26 <helo> i don't think they're trying to predict anything
 807 2012-10-16 19:00:48 <sipa> but if they equate "coins controlled by the same entity" with "saving accounts", their analysis is worthless
 808 2012-10-16 19:00:51 <midnightmagic> helo: They "downloaded" the entire analysis which they say consisted of 180,000 HTML files. blockexplorer does not interpret everything correctly.
 809 2012-10-16 19:01:08 <helo> midnightmagic: yeah, that part is kind of silly
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 811 2012-10-16 19:03:24 <helo> it's good to see such a big name looking at bitcoin, at least
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 813 2012-10-16 19:03:38 <gmaxwell> helo: they assert that it's a rule of the system. This is _flatly_ untrue. And if you're talking about usage and who owns what, the practice of shared wallets is relevant. So it fails for either kind of usage.
 814 2012-10-16 19:03:45 <midnightmagic> helo: It would have been better had this "Big Name" not operated in what appears to be a vacuum.
 815 2012-10-16 19:04:38 <sipa> hmm, gavinandresen apparently built the BDB version of ultraprune
 816 2012-10-16 19:04:44 <sipa> which failed because of not maintained
 817 2012-10-16 19:05:17 <gavinandresen> I didn't try to build the BDB version...
 818 2012-10-16 19:05:46 <midnightmagic> helo: It's interesting that such a large number of bitcoins are not in active circulation.
 819 2012-10-16 19:06:07 <gavinandresen> sipa: I did build with USE_IPV6=0 USE_LEVELDB=1 USE_UPNP=-
 820 2012-10-16 19:06:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: bitcoind or bitcoin-qt ?
 821 2012-10-16 19:06:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: bitcoind
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 823 2012-10-16 19:07:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: i fixed the tab issue, by the way, but i assume you fixed that too?
 824 2012-10-16 19:07:45 <helo> midnightmagic: they appear to be making an error in claiming "only 32% of bitcoin are in circulation because 78% are at addresses that have never been sent from"
 825 2012-10-16 19:07:53 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ah, I see what the problem is:  I have a custom makefile that compile *.cpp
 826 2012-10-16 19:08:23 <gavinandresen> (I think?)
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 828 2012-10-16 19:08:31 <sipa> ah, yes that would explain it
 829 2012-10-16 19:08:41 <sipa> i suppose you can just delete txdb-bdb.cpp
 830 2012-10-16 19:08:47 <helo> that's not verbatim, btw ;)
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 833 2012-10-16 19:10:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: now I get ...src/leveldb-1.5.0/libmemenv.a: No such file or directory
 834 2012-10-16 19:11:15 <gavinandresen> .... looks like another makefile.osx bug
 835 2012-10-16 19:11:31 <sipa> gavinandresen: with a custom makefile still?
 836 2012-10-16 19:11:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: ooh, i see the bug
 837 2012-10-16 19:11:49 <sipa> sec
 838 2012-10-16 19:13:17 <gavinandresen> away, back later
 839 2012-10-16 19:16:30 <gmaxwell> helo: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Real_peer_review
 840 2012-10-16 19:17:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: should/could be fixed
 841 2012-10-16 19:17:47 <sipa> helo: haven't read the paper but 32%+78% sounds like an excessively large value of 100%
 842 2012-10-16 19:18:31 <helo> gmaxwell: nice
 843 2012-10-16 19:20:04 <helo> sipa: hopefully i'm misunderstanding something in the paper... if i have 50btc, and i send my friend 16btc, the reference client sends my change to a new address which has never been sent from. so that 50btc, even if i just sent it, isn't counted as "in circulation"
 844 2012-10-16 19:20:59 <helo> err, sorry my (50 - 16) btc isn't in circulation
 845 2012-10-16 19:21:02 <gmaxwell> helo: define 'have'?
 846 2012-10-16 19:21:25 <gmaxwell> You can 'have' 50 btc and send 16 btc without creating any change at all.
 847 2012-10-16 19:21:59 <helo> hmm... yeah
 848 2012-10-16 19:22:12 <QuantumQrack> changing ownership makes more sense than "sending" or "receiving"
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 850 2012-10-16 19:23:03 <sipa> it's like saying during an election that 5% of voters switched from party A to party B, while in realy 50% switched one way and 45% switched the other way
 851 2012-10-16 19:23:15 <sipa> well... the opposite actually
 852 2012-10-16 19:23:45 <gmaxwell> If you spend a 50 BTC coin and generate change it is not possible to confidently identify which outputs are payments (0, 1, or both) and which outputs are change (0, 1, or neither) or if the whole thing wasn't a self send (for mixing, to move coins between walltets, or to accounts at services that you own)
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 854 2012-10-16 19:28:04 <helo> i'd like to see the distribution of bitcoin among txouts
 855 2012-10-16 19:28:22 <sipa> just amount/txout ?
 856 2012-10-16 19:28:37 <helo> yes
 857 2012-10-16 19:29:05 <sipa> how do you want the data?
 858 2012-10-16 19:29:31 <helo> csv is fine, whatever's convenient :D
 859 2012-10-16 19:30:12 <sipa> i have a function already that iterates over all unspent txouts, so i can easily write some code
 860 2012-10-16 19:30:18 <graingert> gmaxwell: with is it possible to have a tx with multiple owners using SIGHASH_ALL ?
 861 2012-10-16 19:31:43 <graingert> gmaxwell: is it possible to have a tx with multiple owners using SIGHASH_ALL ? *
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 864 2012-10-16 19:32:39 <sipa> graingert: 'owners' of an output is defined by its output script; SIGHASH_ALL is more about who can modify the transaction
 865 2012-10-16 19:32:59 <gmaxwell> graingert: sure!
 866 2012-10-16 19:34:01 <gmaxwell> graingert: the signatures on a transaction don't tell you who 'authored' it, or even who owned the funds its spending, no matter what sighash type is in use.
 867 2012-10-16 19:34:32 <gmaxwell> graingert: do you have a unspent coin you control that you can tell me the txid and vout index for?
 868 2012-10-16 19:34:49 <gmaxwell> (I can demonstrate)
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 870 2012-10-16 19:42:37 <graingert> gmaxwell: what does that mean?
 871 2012-10-16 19:42:42 <sipa> helo: http://pastebin.com/qA3BSS6w
 872 2012-10-16 19:42:42 <graingert> gmaxwell: I do
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 874 2012-10-16 19:42:58 <helo> sipa: neet... thank you
 875 2012-10-16 19:43:14 <graingert> gmaxwell: I'd probably have to make a new tx, which envolves a trek to the vault
 876 2012-10-16 19:43:25 <sipa> helo: in satoshis, of course
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 878 2012-10-16 19:48:22 <gmaxwell> graingert: hah then don't worry about it, too much trouble for a demo then. I was going to author a transaction which jointly spent some coins of yours and mine, signed it, and handed it to you.
 879 2012-10-16 19:48:37 <graingert> :(
 880 2012-10-16 19:48:57 <graingert> I'd need to sign that somehow right?
 881 2012-10-16 19:49:23 <graingert> I'd sign the new output with my unspent output
 882 2012-10-16 19:49:27 <graingert> 's key
 883 2012-10-16 19:49:30 <gmaxwell> right, its not valid until you sign it. There is a signrawtransaction command in bitcoin for this. (available at the CLI or GUI console)
 884 2012-10-16 19:49:51 <graingert> and that would not be distinguishable from a "regular" tx
 885 2012-10-16 19:50:12 <gmaxwell> with sighash all the signatures cover everything except the other signatures. And yes, it _would_ be a "regular" tx as far as anyone could tell.
 886 2012-10-16 19:50:18 Diapolo has left ()
 887 2012-10-16 19:50:22 <graingert> gmaxwell: so the paper is wrong
 888 2012-10-16 19:50:31 <gmaxwell> Yes, the paper is wrong.
 889 2012-10-16 19:50:46 <gmaxwell> Now— it's true that this isn't a _common_ practice, at least not yet.
 890 2012-10-16 19:50:50 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 891 2012-10-16 19:50:53 <graingert> gmaxwell: I'm waiting for my account to activate
 892 2012-10-16 19:50:57 <gmaxwell> But it doesn't even require special software anymore.
 893 2012-10-16 19:51:12 <graingert> gmaxwell: it could remove a lot of unspent outputs
 894 2012-10-16 19:51:42 <graingert> gmaxwell: if every so often everyone dumped all of their ouputs into one in one huge tx
 895 2012-10-16 19:52:07 <graingert> although it would be a pain to orchestrate
 896 2012-10-16 19:52:33 <graingert> also great of laundering
 897 2012-10-16 19:55:13 PK has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 898 2012-10-16 19:55:31 <sipa> graingert: account to activate...?
 899 2012-10-16 19:55:54 <graingert> sipa: on iacr.org
 900 2012-10-16 19:56:00 <sipa> ah
 901 2012-10-16 19:56:38 <graingert> sipa: is there a wiki page describing the one tx "laundering" scheme
 902 2012-10-16 19:57:49 <graingert> gmaxwell: ^
 903 2012-10-16 19:58:38 <gmaxwell> graingert: no. and 'meh' I wish bitcoin people would stop calling every blinking transaction laundering. :P
 904 2012-10-16 19:59:04 <gmaxwell> It's only even 'hiding' something if you had the mistaken impression that you could identify ownership with joint signatures in the first place. :)
 905 2012-10-16 19:59:07 <graingert> gmaxwell: multi user tx
 906 2012-10-16 19:59:17 <graingert> gmaxwell: which people do
 907 2012-10-16 20:01:09 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 908 2012-10-16 20:01:36 <jgarzik> <reads github comments>
 909 2012-10-16 20:01:49 <jgarzik> sipa: another reason why USE_LEVELDB should be deleted (and made unconditionally true, implicitly)
 910 2012-10-16 20:01:51 <jgarzik> ;p
 911 2012-10-16 20:02:19 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 912 2012-10-16 20:02:37 <sipa> jgarzik: TD liked to keep it in case there were some unexpected leveldb problems, so ultraprune could be kept, but on BDB at first
 913 2012-10-16 20:02:55 <sipa> seems highly unlikely, but there's no reason why the bdb can't be kicked out later either
 914 2012-10-16 20:03:54 <jgarzik> sipa: well then delete it as an additional commit on the ultraprune branch, pre-merge.  keeping it in git history is at least preferable to current codebase for dead code storage.
 915 2012-10-16 20:04:45 <sipa> wumpus, gmaxwell, jgarzik, gavinandresen: leveldb-1.5/ or leveldb/, by the way?
 916 2012-10-16 20:04:49 m00p has joined
 917 2012-10-16 20:04:53 <sipa> wumpus prefers leveldb/
 918 2012-10-16 20:04:55 <jgarzik> leveldb/
 919 2012-10-16 20:05:33 <jgarzik> if we start growing leveldb-1.5/, leveldb-1.6/ etc. there is a problem
 920 2012-10-16 20:05:38 <jgarzik> in-tree only needs The Copy
 921 2012-10-16 20:06:04 Matt_von_Mises has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 922 2012-10-16 20:07:51 <jgarzik> oh, _that_ Shamir.
 923 2012-10-16 20:07:52 <jgarzik> neat.
 924 2012-10-16 20:09:35 <gmaxwell> Sure.  And no, I don't know that any page has bothered writing it up in any detail. It's just something you can do and doesn't require any extra steps compared to redeeming a multisig, and really only one extra step compared to creating an ordinary txn with rawtxn api (send it off for signing by the other party)
 925 2012-10-16 20:12:48 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
 926 2012-10-16 20:13:01 dvide has joined
 927 2012-10-16 20:14:14 paraipan has joined
 928 2012-10-16 20:17:08 guruvan has quit (Disconnected by services)
 929 2012-10-16 20:17:10 guruvan- is now known as guruvan
 930 2012-10-16 20:17:23  has joined
 931 2012-10-16 20:19:20 <jgarzik> "which consistant of about 180,000 html files"
 932 2012-10-16 20:19:25 <jgarzik> *consisted
 933 2012-10-16 20:19:27 guruvan_ has joined
 934 2012-10-16 20:19:39 <jgarzik> sigh... they must have crawled blockchain.info or blockexplorer, rather than reading the data directly
 935 2012-10-16 20:19:47 <sipa> that's exactly what they did
 936 2012-10-16 20:20:03 davout has joined
 937 2012-10-16 20:20:04 davout has quit (Changing host)
 938 2012-10-16 20:20:04 davout has joined
 939 2012-10-16 20:20:28 <graingert> doesn't blockchain have it all in json?
 940 2012-10-16 20:20:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, cringed at that too. :(
 941 2012-10-16 20:20:56 <jgarzik> blockexplorer does
 942 2012-10-16 20:20:57 <BlueMatt> TD: ok, so turns out netty does an incredibly poor job of working around the issue (or its a separate issue - either way same result, jvm uses 100% cpu on calls to select()) the solution is to simply limit the thread count of netty to 1 and use up the cpu time with other things (in message handlers that actually do something) other than that...dunno
 943 2012-10-16 20:20:59 <graingert> jgarzik: https://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/000000000000008fc38c3274bae8c2c9cff19d4a67b5c2350c17a295b9162adf
 944 2012-10-16 20:21:00 <graingert> eg
 945 2012-10-16 20:21:03 <BlueMatt> yay jvm bugs!
 946 2012-10-16 20:21:06 <sipa> "which consisted of about 180,000 *HTML* files"
 947 2012-10-16 20:21:10 <sipa> (emphasis mine)
 948 2012-10-16 20:21:15 <jgarzik> indeed
 949 2012-10-16 20:21:35  is now known as guruvan|!~guruvan@gateway/tor-sasl/guruvan|guruvan-
 950 2012-10-16 20:21:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: I really liked that line
 951 2012-10-16 20:21:40 <gmaxwell> and parsing blocks and transactions is pretty darn easy.. but for their purposes is was sprobably fine.
 952 2012-10-16 20:21:52 guruvan has quit (Disconnected by services)
 953 2012-10-16 20:21:55 guruvan_ is now known as guruvan
 954 2012-10-16 20:22:08 <graingert> why no JSON :(
 955 2012-10-16 20:22:11 <graingert> JAYSONNE
 956 2012-10-16 20:23:25 <jgarzik> "which records them in publicly available web pages, called block chains"
 957 2012-10-16 20:23:49 <gavinandresen> sipa: I need to pass -arch i386 down into the $(MAKE) libleveldb.a ....   what's the best way?
 958 2012-10-16 20:24:57 <sipa> gavinandresen: i suppose the easiest way is to build leveldb separately in advance
 959 2012-10-16 20:25:13 <sipa> (cd leveldb; make $WHATEVERYOUNEED libleveldb.a libmemenv.a)
 960 2012-10-16 20:25:24 <sipa> it won't change anyway
 961 2012-10-16 20:25:32 <jgarzik> hmmmm
 962 2012-10-16 20:25:33 <gavinandresen> I'll create a Makefile.gavin in the leveldb directory for now
 963 2012-10-16 20:26:08 <sipa> jgarzik: yeah, blockchain.info consists of tons of block chains!
 964 2012-10-16 20:26:12 <gavinandresen> ... but that's an issue that needs to be fixed (RELEASE builds of the Mac binaries are 32-bit, debug builds are, by default, whatever architecture you happen to be on)
 965 2012-10-16 20:26:33 <jgarzik> "Each block reports on as
 966 2012-10-16 20:26:33 <jgarzik> little as a single transaction to as much as over a thousand transactions, and
 967 2012-10-16 20:26:33 <jgarzik> provides hyperlinks to other blocks and to other activities of each address
 968 2012-10-16 20:26:33 <jgarzik> "
 969 2012-10-16 20:26:48 * sipa cries
 970 2012-10-16 20:26:52 <jgarzik> man, why didn't they just ask a dev, rather than judging the design based on a web crawl???
 971 2012-10-16 20:27:44 <gavinandresen> it's not the final version of their paper, is it?  Who wants to volunteer to send them a review?
 972 2012-10-16 20:28:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: wow...
 973 2012-10-16 20:28:27 Matt_von_Mises has joined
 974 2012-10-16 20:28:59 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 975 2012-10-16 20:30:27 * jgarzik was tempted to write a response
 976 2012-10-16 20:30:54 <davout> their figures about instawallet are completely wrong
 977 2012-10-16 20:31:03 <gmaxwell> I don't mind gathering things. I already wrote that bit taking apart that centeral idea of linkage as a protocol rule or that ownership follows control.
 978 2012-10-16 20:31:14 <davout> either their approach is flawed or i can't do a simple sql query
 979 2012-10-16 20:31:24 guruvan has joined
 980 2012-10-16 20:31:32 <jgarzik> "A very important feature of the Bitcoin network is that a transaction involv-
 981 2012-10-16 20:31:32 <jgarzik> ing multiple sending addresses can only be carried out by the common owner of
 982 2012-10-16 20:31:32 <jgarzik> all those addresses, as it is demanded by the Bitcoin system that “Whoever sent
 983 2012-10-16 20:31:32 <jgarzik> this transaction owns all of these addresses”. "
 984 2012-10-16 20:31:39 <jgarzik> wtf?
 985 2012-10-16 20:31:50 <graingert> jgarzik: that's quoted from block explorer
 986 2012-10-16 20:32:08 <sipa> even wtfer?
 987 2012-10-16 20:32:08 <graingert> https://blockexplorer.com/nojshelp/The+addresses+of+the+referenced+outputs.+Whoever+sent+this+transaction+owns+all+of+these+addresses.
 988 2012-10-16 20:32:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Real_peer_review#Linking_transactions_to_identify_ownership
 989 2012-10-16 20:32:53 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 990 2012-10-16 20:32:55 <davout> that assumptation would be correct if there weren't any shared wallets on earth
 991 2012-10-16 20:33:08 <gmaxwell> davout: it wouldn't, in fact.
 992 2012-10-16 20:33:26 <gmaxwell> davout: please see the detailed dissambly I wrote of it on the page I just linked to.
 993 2012-10-16 20:33:49 unknown45682 has joined
 994 2012-10-16 20:34:01 <gmaxwell> davout: it's rather easy to have multiple people form a single transaction.
 995 2012-10-16 20:34:46 toffoo has quit ()
 996 2012-10-16 20:35:02 TD has joined
 997 2012-10-16 20:35:18 <davout> gmaxwell: i concur, but this case has, i assume, a negligible impact on the assumption, whereas the impact of shared wallets on the assumption basically invalidate it completely
 998 2012-10-16 20:35:28 vampireb has joined
 999 2012-10-16 20:35:31 <jgarzik> agreed
1000 2012-10-16 20:35:45 <sipa> agreed, indeed
1001 2012-10-16 20:36:01 <davout> gmaxwell: and i agree, the legality part is complete bs
1002 2012-10-16 20:36:26 <gmaxwell> davout: yea, I point out both things.. That from a pedantic perspective it's totally wrong, and from a common practice perspecitve shared wallets make it wrong.
1003 2012-10-16 20:37:09 <BlueMatt> TD: also, doing anything which uses more than 1% cpu time in the message handler appears to make it happen nearly constantly instead of only off-and-on, so, essentially making everything in the message handlers just throw the result in a todo queue (largely) solves the issue
1004 2012-10-16 20:37:21 <TD> hmm
1005 2012-10-16 20:37:21 <gmaxwell> You could still debate that the shared wallets still "control" the funds, but that doesn't let you draw ownership or trade volume conclusions.
1006 2012-10-16 20:37:30 <davout> i boil with nerd rage each time i read something like that
1007 2012-10-16 20:37:31 <TD> BlueMatt: what is the issue exactly?
1008 2012-10-16 20:37:38 <jgarzik> I think davout is right about the emphasis
1009 2012-10-16 20:37:39 <TD> BlueMatt: entering some kind of infinite busy loop
1010 2012-10-16 20:37:47 <jgarzik> the sheer scale of web wallet usage demolishes their thesis
1011 2012-10-16 20:37:57 <BlueMatt> TD: 100% cpu usage in the native select function, so...yes
1012 2012-10-16 20:38:06 <jgarzik> transaction building _theoretically_ demolishes it, but the trickle of usage does not prove it practically, given existing data
1013 2012-10-16 20:38:17 <jgarzik> web wallets prove from both theoretical and in-the-data standpoint
1014 2012-10-16 20:38:25 <jgarzik> that their argument is BS
1015 2012-10-16 20:38:26 <gavinandresen> There's an empty discussion forum for talking about the paper:  http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584
1016 2012-10-16 20:38:26 <TD> urgh
1017 2012-10-16 20:38:37 <TD> what platform are you on?
1018 2012-10-16 20:38:42 <sipa> ok, we all agree i think, no nee dfor argue further
1019 2012-10-16 20:38:51 <TD> BlueMatt: upgrading netty didn't help?
1020 2012-10-16 20:38:53 <BlueMatt> TD: its armhf, which likely has something to do with it
1021 2012-10-16 20:39:01 <BlueMatt> TD: no netty didnt help (much, if any)
1022 2012-10-16 20:39:11 <TD> ARM i know, what is the HF?
1023 2012-10-16 20:39:18 <davout> maybe the bitcoin foundation should make a statement about this paper ;)
1024 2012-10-16 20:39:19 <BlueMatt> hardware-implemented floats
1025 2012-10-16 20:39:21 <TD> ah
1026 2012-10-16 20:39:36 <TD> i didn't even know there was an arm jvm
1027 2012-10-16 20:39:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think correcting it both ways is important, the theoretical angle is important because people will cite the paper for future bad research... the pratical because it makes the results less clear.
1028 2012-10-16 20:39:42 <BlueMatt> (which, up until recently, was not supported at all in openjdk)
1029 2012-10-16 20:39:44 <gavinandresen> I could've sworn I read somewhere it is a preprint/pre-peer-review paper....
1030 2012-10-16 20:39:57 <BlueMatt> TD: its only the zero jvm (stands for zero-assembly)
1031 2012-10-16 20:40:21 <TD> hrm. ok. i haven't seen that issue in my own usage though i haven't used fullverif much
1032 2012-10-16 20:40:35 <davout> i'm totally going to drop these guys a line
1033 2012-10-16 20:40:37 <gavinandresen> ... in which case it isn't too late.  Somebody send email to the authors.... (I'm not gonna, busy getting ready to go to NY tomorrow)
1034 2012-10-16 20:40:46 <TD> if it's a bug that only affects a non-standard JVM on ARM i'm not sure we should be checking in fixes for it. if it was dalvik, then i might agree ....
1035 2012-10-16 20:40:55 <TD> if it's a bug that only affects a non-standard JVM on ARM i'm not sure we should be checking in fixes for it. if it was dalvik, then i might agree ….
1036 2012-10-16 20:40:55 <gavinandresen> (but don't everybody email them, and be nice.)
1037 2012-10-16 20:40:56 <TD> oops
1038 2012-10-16 20:41:02 <BlueMatt> TD: it is the standard jvm on arm (its the only jvm on arm)
1039 2012-10-16 20:41:06 * jgarzik was writing a gist
1040 2012-10-16 20:41:09 <TD> ok
1041 2012-10-16 20:41:19 <BlueMatt> TD: (non-dalvik ofc)
1042 2012-10-16 20:41:21 <Diablo-D3> hey td
1043 2012-10-16 20:41:22 <jgarzik> and yeah, don't everybody email them
1044 2012-10-16 20:41:33 <Diablo-D3> would google be interested in a post-java language?
1045 2012-10-16 20:41:36 <sipa> jgarzik: i'll have a look when you're done?
1046 2012-10-16 20:41:37 <graingert> gmaxwell: they also don't say where they cited that
1047 2012-10-16 20:41:50 <gavinandresen> google has a post-java language
1048 2012-10-16 20:42:24 <BlueMatt> TD: my solution: put a big fat comment in addActionListener noting that there are bugs if you use much (any) cpu time while in the listener and that it is highly recommended that you make everything async as much as possible
1049 2012-10-16 20:42:27 <jgarzik> sipa: yes, will definitely post the gist here before taking any other action
1050 2012-10-16 20:42:34 <jgarzik> in 10-20 min
1051 2012-10-16 20:42:56 <TD> google has several post-java languages *eyeroll*
1052 2012-10-16 20:43:18 <sipa> some of which are created by them
1053 2012-10-16 20:43:20 <TD> BlueMatt: hmm. ok. that's suboptimal but fine for now. if we see it on intel or dalvik then let's find a workaround. i'm hopeful it won't affect dalvik
1054 2012-10-16 20:43:41 <TD> sipa: you should start saying "us" ;)
1055 2012-10-16 20:43:56 <sipa> TD: i didn't create any language :p
1056 2012-10-16 20:44:01 <sipa> but indeed
1057 2012-10-16 20:44:04 * TD has created only one language at google
1058 2012-10-16 20:44:22 <TD> it's a broken form of assembly language that has opcodes just for hashing
1059 2012-10-16 20:44:39 <TD> i try and use it for everything :-)
1060 2012-10-16 20:45:21 <BlueMatt> TD: ack, it looks like netty has it decently well figured out for some similar (same?) bug on other platforms...
1061 2012-10-16 20:46:57 <TD> cool
1062 2012-10-16 20:47:35 <BlueMatt> also, aside from this bug, PeerGroup has no problem with 1000+ connections in flight at any one time
1063 2012-10-16 20:48:14 QuantumQrack has left ()
1064 2012-10-16 20:50:36 <sipa> jgarzik: there, surgery complete; leveldb-1.5.0/ -> leveldb/
1065 2012-10-16 20:50:56 <graingert> gmaxwell: I found where they got their misinformation from
1066 2012-10-16 20:51:19 <graingert> gmaxwell: from address column of https://blockexplorer.com/tx/038b65544842b3d4b2a3c1b1bc0a866d0de6fac36e51803b19eebcd7c918118c
1067 2012-10-16 20:51:20 <gmaxwell> graingert: ah?
1068 2012-10-16 20:51:44 <graingert> mouse over the "#?"
1069 2012-10-16 20:51:48 <graingert> mouse over the ""
1070 2012-10-16 20:51:50 <graingert> mouse over the "?"
1071 2012-10-16 20:51:53 <graingert> even
1072 2012-10-16 20:51:55 <gmaxwell> I see. Well, maybe.
1073 2012-10-16 20:52:05 <gmaxwell> It's a common belief in any case.
1074 2012-10-16 20:52:06 <graingert> maybe? It's quoted
1075 2012-10-16 20:52:10 <BlueMatt> TD: oh, sorry: the solution is that comment + changing PeerGroup's thread creators to fixed thread pools of size 1 instead of cached thread pools
1076 2012-10-16 20:52:20 <graingert> gmaxwell: they quote the message
1077 2012-10-16 20:52:24 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK
1078 2012-10-16 20:52:26 <TD> making it single threaded fixes it?
1079 2012-10-16 20:52:28 <graingert> and on google you only get it from blockexplorer
1080 2012-10-16 20:52:30 <TD> wth
1081 2012-10-16 20:52:31 <TD> w
1082 2012-10-16 20:52:38 <TD> what kind of broken select() does this platform/jvm have?
1083 2012-10-16 20:52:39 <BlueMatt> TD: that + spending no cpu, yes
1084 2012-10-16 20:52:47 <BlueMatt> TD: nfc, but its certainly not pretty...
1085 2012-10-16 20:52:49 <TD> it must be a race condition
1086 2012-10-16 20:52:58 <TD> if returning to select fast enough fixes it ....
1087 2012-10-16 20:53:08 <TD> oh java
1088 2012-10-16 20:53:11 <TD> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI
1089 2012-10-16 20:53:12 <gmaxwell> graingert: yea, without citation. bleh.
1090 2012-10-16 20:53:13 <BlueMatt> yea...
1091 2012-10-16 20:53:34 root2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1092 2012-10-16 20:53:48 <graingert> gmaxwell: this is why there should be ceremonial striping of doctorates
1093 2012-10-16 20:53:53 root2 has joined
1094 2012-10-16 20:54:27 <Luke-Jr> anyone know where/how to find USB hubs based on SMSC USB2507, SMC USB2517, TI TUSB2077A, or REA uPD720113 ? :/
1095 2012-10-16 20:54:59 <gmaxwell> graingert: lets not be too dramatic. :P
1096 2012-10-16 20:55:13 <graingert> gmaxwell: never
1097 2012-10-16 20:55:17 <BlueMatt> TD: Connections opened each second: 100, total cpu constant: < 40%; cpu is pretty much entirely in databases :)
1098 2012-10-16 20:55:30 <TD> 100 connections per second?
1099 2012-10-16 20:55:35 <TD> oh this is your dns seed crawler
1100 2012-10-16 20:55:41 <gmaxwell> Fortunately the real world has much saner stanandards for plagiarism than (esp. undergrad) academia. :P
1101 2012-10-16 20:55:50 <TD> well at least we know the network stack does just fine even when limited to a single core
1102 2012-10-16 20:59:48 <davout> ok, i've sent these guys an email, felt good
1103 2012-10-16 20:59:50 <davout> http://pastebin.com/aAbWGUgZ
1104 2012-10-16 20:59:54 iddo has joined
1105 2012-10-16 21:00:00 <davout> comments ?
1106 2012-10-16 21:01:33 <graingert> davout: you didn't leave your nick
1107 2012-10-16 21:01:49 <davout> in the email ?
1108 2012-10-16 21:02:33 <jarpiain> davout: they wouldn't know about instawallet addresses with unspent transactions
1109 2012-10-16 21:02:44 <jgarzik> https://gist.github.com/3901921
1110 2012-10-16 21:02:53 <jgarzik> davout, gmaxwell, sipa, gavinandresen: ^^
1111 2012-10-16 21:02:58 <jgarzik> not done yet, just hitting save
1112 2012-10-16 21:03:11 <BlueMatt> aww shit, thought I killed all the deadlocks...
1113 2012-10-16 21:03:17 <graingert> davout: afaik
1114 2012-10-16 21:03:26 <davout> jarpiain: that is correct
1115 2012-10-16 21:04:10 <davout> jarpiain: let me do some sql magic and maybe i'll find their figures to be actually right :)
1116 2012-10-16 21:04:34 <sipa> jgarzik: then in fact -> when in fact
1117 2012-10-16 21:05:04 <jgarzik> fixed
1118 2012-10-16 21:05:08 <sipa> but i think davout already pointed out the most important flaws
1119 2012-10-16 21:05:10 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1120 2012-10-16 21:06:23 <jgarzik> agreed
1121 2012-10-16 21:07:29 <davout> jarpiain: i'm kinda hitting a wall with the sql data
1122 2012-10-16 21:07:57 <davout> because i got in charge of instawallet in april, and before that sql wasn't used
1123 2012-10-16 21:08:08 <BlueMatt> TD: I take that back, I hit some limit and it deadlocked in connectSocket when running 100 connections/sec...still, works fine for the most part
1124 2012-10-16 21:08:20 <davout> the migration imported only wallet balances, not the full transaction history
1125 2012-10-16 21:09:18 <sipa> davout: then how does it know which coins to spend?
1126 2012-10-16 21:09:46 <davout> sipa: why would instawallet have to choose between coins ?
1127 2012-10-16 21:09:51 <davout> it used to rely on accounts
1128 2012-10-16 21:10:01 <davout> now it relies on a sql database
1129 2012-10-16 21:10:06 <sipa> how can it create any transactions without knowing which coins it owns?
1130 2012-10-16 21:10:22 <jgarzik> I think he's talking about the upper layer
1131 2012-10-16 21:10:27 <davout> well, the wallet knows the coins, i don't really get your question i think
1132 2012-10-16 21:10:29 <jgarzik> on top of the low level wallet
1133 2012-10-16 21:10:38 <sipa> well whatever layer... you have access to it, no?
1134 2012-10-16 21:10:38 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1135 2012-10-16 21:10:41 <davout> well the db tracks everything now
1136 2012-10-16 21:10:51 <davout> yea i have access to the old wallet
1137 2012-10-16 21:11:06 <davout> but it'd be a pain to pull data out of it i reckon
1138 2012-10-16 21:11:24 <sipa> not the old wallet; just whatever currently holds the information about which coins are in the system
1139 2012-10-16 21:11:30 <davout> the db
1140 2012-10-16 21:11:34 <sipa> whether that is a database or bitcoind's wallet.dat, or ...
1141 2012-10-16 21:11:35 <graingert> davout: just send us the wallet, we can work it all out
1142 2012-10-16 21:11:38 <sipa> haha
1143 2012-10-16 21:11:38 <jgarzik> davout: sipa was referring to the basic requirements for anyone to spend anything... the private keys and unspent transaction outputs.
1144 2012-10-16 21:11:39 <graingert> >.>
1145 2012-10-16 21:11:48 <davout> for each wallet you have all the incoming and outgoing transactions
1146 2012-10-16 21:11:54 <jgarzik> davout: are those in the wallet or db?
1147 2012-10-16 21:11:57 <jgarzik> or both
1148 2012-10-16 21:12:17 <davout> HOWEVER, wallets that only existed in the previous system were imported with one single amount > 0 transaction, discarding the history, without discarding the balance
1149 2012-10-16 21:12:30 <jgarzik> sounds like the wallet, still
1150 2012-10-16 21:12:45 <TD> BlueMatt: i'd be interested to know how well it works on a more mature platform
1151 2012-10-16 21:12:54 <sipa> i'm not following... something *right* now must know which txouts are owned by instawallet
1152 2012-10-16 21:12:59 MC1984 has joined
1153 2012-10-16 21:13:01 <TD> or at least a platform more commonly used for network intensive tasks :)
1154 2012-10-16 21:13:07 <davout> so i can easily see which wallets were funded at the migration time by running a sql query
1155 2012-10-16 21:13:11 <davout> sipa: yes
1156 2012-10-16 21:13:17 <sipa> so, look at that :)
1157 2012-10-16 21:13:18 <davout> bitcoind
1158 2012-10-16 21:13:25 <sipa> ok, bitcoind listunspent :)
1159 2012-10-16 21:13:30 <davout> oh, haha that's much harder than sql queries
1160 2012-10-16 21:13:43 <davout> sipa: lol
1161 2012-10-16 21:14:05 <sipa> well, not on the production system, but a copy of the wallet?
1162 2012-10-16 21:14:08 <TD> does anyone here speak fluent russian?
1163 2012-10-16 21:14:34 <davout> won't work either, i completely rebuilt the wallet by exporting all keys and reimporting them when migrating
1164 2012-10-16 21:14:34 <jgarzik> TD: google translate does ;p
1165 2012-10-16 21:14:35 * jgarzik runs
1166 2012-10-16 21:14:42 <sipa> davout: so?
1167 2012-10-16 21:14:48 <TD> gosh i hadn't thought of that :)
1168 2012-10-16 21:14:55 <davout> so i'd need to pull the old copies
1169 2012-10-16 21:15:04 <sipa> why?
1170 2012-10-16 21:15:05 <davout> and the new one won't have the change addresses
1171 2012-10-16 21:15:09 <sipa> ah
1172 2012-10-16 21:15:19 <sipa> oh wait, never mind
1173 2012-10-16 21:15:21 <jgarzik> TD: there's a mobile app out there that can "listen" to a song, identify it, and give you the links and an iTunes purchase link.
1174 2012-10-16 21:15:26 <jgarzik> TD: real time translation is not far off
1175 2012-10-16 21:15:32 <jgarzik> UT
1176 2012-10-16 21:15:37 <sipa> davout: somehow i was assuming that you'd only need the unspent coins, but obviously you need the history
1177 2012-10-16 21:15:40 <davout> because i couldn't figure a better way to remove all the accounting data that was slowing instawallet down like crazy
1178 2012-10-16 21:15:49 <TD> oh we already do real-time speech recognition and translation in the latest version of the android translate app
1179 2012-10-16 21:15:52 <TD> (or at least close to real time)
1180 2012-10-16 21:16:11 <jgarzik> cool
1181 2012-10-16 21:16:30 <davout> sipa: yes, you need the history because as jarpiain pointed out i have to remove the addresses that got funded but not spent from my calculations
1182 2012-10-16 21:16:49 <davout> because there's no way the analysis could have linked those together
1183 2012-10-16 21:17:08 <sipa> ewwww gitian SEGV :(
1184 2012-10-16 21:18:47 <davout> yea i know
1185 2012-10-16 21:19:11 <sipa> you knew my gitian would segfault? :o
1186 2012-10-16 21:19:34 <davout> no, sorry, i accidentally scrolled up and was answering to something else ><
1187 2012-10-16 21:19:42 <sipa> haha
1188 2012-10-16 21:20:05 <davout> hey
1189 2012-10-16 21:20:10 <davout> on a completely unrelated note
1190 2012-10-16 21:20:38 <davout> if i cleaned up a little the monitortx and monitorblock calls, would they get pulled ?
1191 2012-10-16 21:21:15 <davout> i rely heavily on these two little guys and would love to have them included
1192 2012-10-16 21:21:32 <freewil> davout you got a link to the patch?
1193 2012-10-16 21:21:48 <freewil> im struggling to figure out an efficient way to watch for incoming multisig txs
1194 2012-10-16 21:21:53 eoss has joined
1195 2012-10-16 21:21:56 <davout> it's based on an old version of bitcoind but yes
1196 2012-10-16 21:22:08 <freewil> since they dont show up with listtransactions or listsince unless you have all the keys in your wallet
1197 2012-10-16 21:22:43 <davout> https://github.com/Paymium/bitcoin/tree/monitortx
1198 2012-10-16 21:23:02 <freewil> thanks
1199 2012-10-16 21:23:19 <davout> so, if I properly rebased it against the current master would that have a chance of being included ?
1200 2012-10-16 21:24:13 eoss is now known as gh0stne3ts
1201 2012-10-16 21:24:35 gh0stne3ts is now known as gh0stn3ts
1202 2012-10-16 21:24:46 <sipa> there's already -blocknotify
1203 2012-10-16 21:24:55 <BlueMatt> TD: running it locally seems to work pretty well, but I havent tested it extensively...if you want a copy, I can put it on github
1204 2012-10-16 21:25:02 gh0stn3ts is now known as eoss
1205 2012-10-16 21:25:19 <Luke-Jr> davout: ltns!
1206 2012-10-16 21:25:25 <sipa> ltns?
1207 2012-10-16 21:25:26 <freewil> it seems the only way to watch for incoming multisig transactions is wait for -blocknotify, call getblock, get array of txs, call getrawtransaction for each one and see if it has a txout with an address you care about
1208 2012-10-16 21:25:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: long time, no see
1209 2012-10-16 21:25:59 <sipa> freewil: that sounds harder than it should be, i guess
1210 2012-10-16 21:26:07 <freewil> sipa, yes im afraid so
1211 2012-10-16 21:26:09 <davout> Luke-Jr: :D
1212 2012-10-16 21:26:22 <sipa> i really wonder what is wrong with my gitian
1213 2012-10-16 21:26:31 <sipa> i'm even unable to recreate the base images now
1214 2012-10-16 21:26:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: sounds more like a problem with KVM
1215 2012-10-16 21:26:42 <freewil> sipa, see my issue about it https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1928
1216 2012-10-16 21:26:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: or LXC
1217 2012-10-16 21:27:00 <davout> Luke-Jr: it's not often that I feel worthy of hanging around with the c++ gods of #bitcoin-dev
1218 2012-10-16 21:27:20 <sipa> davout: oh please... i didn't even know C++ before i started hacking on bitcoind
1219 2012-10-16 21:27:28 <Luke-Jr> davout: well, I haven't seen you *anywhere* recently :P
1220 2012-10-16 21:27:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: O.o
1221 2012-10-16 21:28:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: my first guess would be out of disk space... it just fails at random places, always somewhere else, but always very soon after starting
1222 2012-10-16 21:28:17 <sipa> except i do have enough disk space... i think
1223 2012-10-16 21:28:30 <davout> sipa: i guess you become a coder by coding :)
1224 2012-10-16 21:28:37 <sipa> davout: no shit, sherlock!
1225 2012-10-16 21:29:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i had a lot of experience with C though, and I knew the C++ class mechanism before (theoretically, i never actually used it)
1226 2012-10-16 21:29:14 <davout> sipa: challenge accepted
1227 2012-10-16 21:29:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: i c, I was like that when I started hacking on Armagetron Advanced years back
1228 2012-10-16 21:31:14 <davout> i'm skilled at ruby, but when i start poking at bitcoind's code i feel like i'm on the beach in a warm snowboarding outfit
1229 2012-10-16 21:31:49 <sipa> davout: that may be caused by more than the language it's written in :)
1230 2012-10-16 21:33:08 <davout> sipa: i wish ruby was as good as C++ at handling raw binary data, would've started a ruby implementation of bitcoind
1231 2012-10-16 21:33:20 <davout> well whatever, i have accepted a challenge and shall submit a pull request
1232 2012-10-16 21:33:30 <davout> shortly
1233 2012-10-16 21:34:07 <sipa> davout: it will probably be for 0.8, and there will be some refactorings first most likely
1234 2012-10-16 21:34:25 <sipa> so expect that you'll need to rebase significantly, and it may take a while...
1235 2012-10-16 21:35:15 <davout> sipa: hopefully there will be some refactorings, as groucho marx said "i don't want to be in a club that would accept me as member"
1236 2012-10-16 21:36:28 <sipa> ha
1237 2012-10-16 21:37:56 <davout> are there any plans to implement some sort of segregated wallets ?
1238 2012-10-16 21:38:46 BlackPrapor has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1239 2012-10-16 21:38:55 <sipa> multiple-wallet support is planned, yes
1240 2012-10-16 21:39:05 <davout> nice
1241 2012-10-16 21:39:21 <sipa> but first we need to get rid of BDB
1242 2012-10-16 21:39:34 <sipa> so you're not constrained to wallet files in one directory
1243 2012-10-16 21:39:40 <davout> what is going to be instead ?
1244 2012-10-16 21:39:59 <graingert> davout: some sort of serialization
1245 2012-10-16 21:40:04 <graingert> sipa: ?
1246 2012-10-16 21:40:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa's magic append-only HD wallet format
1247 2012-10-16 21:40:16 <Luke-Jr> aka SMAOHDWF
1248 2012-10-16 21:40:17 <graingert> hugh magic formats
1249 2012-10-16 21:40:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: logdb has nothing to do with HD wallets
1250 2012-10-16 21:40:28 <graingert> I hope you register a mimetype
1251 2012-10-16 21:40:35 freakazoid has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1252 2012-10-16 21:40:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: <.<
1253 2012-10-16 21:40:48 <sipa> davout: perhaps my 'logdb' (binary append-only format, with checksummed records)
1254 2012-10-16 21:40:50 <graingert> http://freecode.com/projects/logdb
1255 2012-10-16 21:41:33 <sipa> graingert: ok... not that; i'll need to find a better name
1256 2012-10-16 21:41:53 BlackPrapor has joined
1257 2012-10-16 21:42:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: HD wallets will just be some extra values in the wallet file, that keep the seeds and config data
1258 2012-10-16 21:42:18 <graingert> sipa: do you have a URI?
1259 2012-10-16 21:42:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it could be done right now, on top of BDB wallets
1260 2012-10-16 21:42:26 <sipa> graingert: my logdb branch on github
1261 2012-10-16 21:42:28 <graingert> HD wallets?
1262 2012-10-16 21:42:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: sure, but we'd be bumping the BDB wallet version
1263 2012-10-16 21:42:34 <graingert> what's wrong with SD wallets
1264 2012-10-16 21:42:41 <sipa> graingert: see BIP 32
1265 2012-10-16 21:42:46 <graingert> can we only send HD wallets over HDMI with HDCP?
1266 2012-10-16 21:42:47 <Luke-Jr> graingert: why implement SD wallets?
1267 2012-10-16 21:42:57 <Luke-Jr> what does HD wallets have to do with HDMI?
1268 2012-10-16 21:43:17 <sipa> graingert: the name is a joke though - it stands for "hierarchical deterministic wallets"
1269 2012-10-16 21:43:27 <graingert> <b>Warning</b>
1270 2012-10-16 21:43:27 <graingert> : mcrypt_create_iv() [
1271 2012-10-16 21:43:27 <graingert> <a href="function.mcrypt-create-iv">function.mcrypt-create-iv</a>
1272 2012-10-16 21:43:27 <graingert> ]: Cannot open source device in
1273 2012-10-16 21:43:27 <graingert> <b>/www/b/bi/bitcoin.it/www/phase3/includes/CryptRand.php</b>
1274 2012-10-16 21:43:28 <graingert> on line
1275 2012-10-16 21:43:30 <graingert> <b>281</b>
1276 2012-10-16 21:43:32 <graingert> <br>
1277 2012-10-16 21:43:34 <graingert> oops
1278 2012-10-16 21:43:38 <Luke-Jr> graingert: it's been doing that for a week or so now
1279 2012-10-16 21:43:38 <graingert> thought that was one line
1280 2012-10-16 21:43:42 <graingert> sigh
1281 2012-10-16 21:43:49 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if MagicalTux knows
1282 2012-10-16 21:44:02 <gmaxwell> it has done this before.
1283 2012-10-16 21:45:00 <graingert> urrm
1284 2012-10-16 21:45:27 <graingert> sipa: https://github.com/sipa/logdb
1285 2012-10-16 21:46:31 <sipa> yeah, that
1286 2012-10-16 21:46:41 <graingert> it 404s
1287 2012-10-16 21:46:45 <graingert> :(
1288 2012-10-16 21:46:46 <sipa> ah
1289 2012-10-16 21:47:02 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/logdb
1290 2012-10-16 21:47:27 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/477237d7f1f4949d85b05662cce087de5aea1d30
1291 2012-10-16 21:48:02 <graingert> sipa: l2submodules
1292 2012-10-16 21:48:11 <sipa> ?
1293 2012-10-16 21:48:38 <graingert> logdb.cpp should be in aseparate repo surely?
1294 2012-10-16 21:48:43 <graingert> logdb.cpp should be in a separate repo surely?
1295 2012-10-16 21:48:57 <sipa> it's so tiny it's not worthy of being a project on itself
1296 2012-10-16 21:49:17 <sipa> well, maybe not, but it was certainly intended to be tiny enough!
1297 2012-10-16 21:49:26 <graingert> sipa: move it out and use submodules
1298 2012-10-16 21:49:48 <graingert> sipa: or it could be loaded dynamically
1299 2012-10-16 21:49:53 <graingert> your DB could become famous!
1300 2012-10-16 21:49:54 <sipa> weh?
1301 2012-10-16 21:50:16 <graingert> it could be a whole separate package
1302 2012-10-16 21:50:25 <graingert> and linked at runtime
1303 2012-10-16 21:50:31 <sipa> please don't
1304 2012-10-16 21:50:37 <sipa> we already have enough dependency problems
1305 2012-10-16 21:50:39 <graingert> :p
1306 2012-10-16 21:50:44 <graingert> </trolling>
1307 2012-10-16 21:50:56 <Luke-Jr> graingert: I'd agree LevelDB should be in a separate repo …
1308 2012-10-16 21:51:08 <graingert> LevelDB or logdb?
1309 2012-10-16 21:51:11 <graingert> Luke-Jr: ^
1310 2012-10-16 21:51:15 <Luke-Jr> LevelDB
1311 2012-10-16 21:51:25 <graingert> !google LevelDB
1312 2012-10-16 21:51:26 <gribble> leveldb - A fast and lightweight key/value database library by Google ...: <http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/>; LevelDB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LevelDB>; High Scalability - High Scalability - LevelDB - Fast and Lightweight ...: <http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/8/10/leveldb-fast-and-lightweight-keyvalue-database-from-the-auth.html>
1313 2012-10-16 21:51:28 <TigrBot> [LevelDB] http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_xTiEpdeHnAJ:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LevelDB+LevelDBhl=ct=clnk (Cached)
1314 2012-10-16 21:51:28 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1315 2012-10-16 21:51:36 <sipa> these submodules look nice
1316 2012-10-16 21:51:44 <graingert> it's already in a separate repo
1317 2012-10-16 21:51:48 <sipa> i suppose we could use that for leveldb
1318 2012-10-16 21:51:58 <graingert> sipa: github handles them nicely with hyperlinks
1319 2012-10-16 21:52:03 <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell, wumpus, gavinandresen: any opinion about that?
1320 2012-10-16 21:52:25 <graingert> sipa: it might make your fancy build thing a bit difficult
1321 2012-10-16 21:52:42 <Luke-Jr> we have a fancy build thing? O.o
1322 2012-10-16 21:52:52 <graingert> Luke-Jr: BlueMatt's fancy build thing
1323 2012-10-16 21:52:53 <graingert> gitian
1324 2012-10-16 21:52:58 <Luke-Jr> graingert: should'nt
1325 2012-10-16 21:53:01 <graingert> does gitian do clever thing with submodules?
1326 2012-10-16 21:53:06 <Luke-Jr> no?
1327 2012-10-16 21:53:10 <graingert> things*
1328 2012-10-16 21:53:19 <sipa> if you use submodules, will a git clone get you the submodules?
1329 2012-10-16 21:53:26 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not by default
1330 2012-10-16 21:53:34 <graingert> sipa: no you need to grab the others with another command
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1332 2012-10-16 21:53:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: bfgminer uses a submodule for libblkmaker, autogen.sh runs git submodule update
1333 2012-10-16 21:54:01 wereHamster is now known as wereGuineaPig
1334 2012-10-16 21:54:05 <graingert> you need --recursive
1335 2012-10-16 21:54:09 <sipa> we can do a git submodule update in gitian or the builder script
1336 2012-10-16 21:54:33 <graingert> sipa: but what happens if their version changes but yours does not
1337 2012-10-16 21:54:39 <graingert> you have two builds that don't match
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1339 2012-10-16 21:54:51 <Luke-Jr> ah yes, git clone --recursive would do it it seems
1340 2012-10-16 21:55:03 <davout> what's the "safemd" attribute in the rpc command data structure ?
1341 2012-10-16 21:55:05 <sipa> graingert: a submodule refers to a specific commit, from what i read?
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1343 2012-10-16 21:55:05 <Luke-Jr> graingert: git submodules don't allow such variance
1344 2012-10-16 21:55:18 <maaku> graingert: you peg a submodule to a specific commit
1345 2012-10-16 21:55:27 <davout> i assume "unlocked" is whether the command needs the wallet to be unlocked to be run
1346 2012-10-16 21:55:39 <Luke-Jr> davout: no
1347 2012-10-16 21:55:40 <sipa> davout: whether the command is allowed in safe mode
1348 2012-10-16 21:55:43 wereGuineaPig is now known as wereHamster
1349 2012-10-16 21:55:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I thought it was threading?
1350 2012-10-16 21:55:53 <sipa> davout: and unlocked is whether it needs cs_main and cs_wallet locks
1351 2012-10-16 21:56:03 <davout> ok
1352 2012-10-16 21:56:14 <davout> what's safe mode in two words ?
1353 2012-10-16 21:56:18 <graingert> Luke-Jr: you're right
1354 2012-10-16 21:56:26 <Luke-Jr> davout: a mode that gets enabled if bitcoind thinks something funny's going on
1355 2012-10-16 21:56:34 <davout> (sorry, i have moved away from 0.3.24 recently ;) )
1356 2012-10-16 21:56:39 <sipa> haha
1357 2012-10-16 21:56:42 <Luke-Jr> davout: 0.3.24 had safe mode too
1358 2012-10-16 21:57:07 <sipa> yeah, just with an explicit list of RPCs that were allowed in safe mode
1359 2012-10-16 21:57:10 <davout> whoops
1360 2012-10-16 21:57:43 <graingert> Luke-Jr: there was also a safe mode that paused the network (afaik)
1361 2012-10-16 21:58:05 <davout> ok, so for the calls i want to add (listmonitored, monitorblocks, monitortx) i'll assume safe mode forbidden and locks not required
1362 2012-10-16 21:58:16 <davout> does that sound right ?
1363 2012-10-16 21:58:28 <sipa> i think you can allow them in safe mode
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1365 2012-10-16 21:58:45 <davout> gavin originally wrote all this, i think i'm still gonna learn a lot here :)
1366 2012-10-16 21:59:19 <davout> ok, i'll do that
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1401 2012-10-16 22:52:27 <_Adolf_Hit-ler_> lmfaao
1402 2012-10-16 22:52:33 <_Adolf_Hit-ler_> .   /:=)
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1407 2012-10-16 22:58:05 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1408 2012-10-16 22:58:35 <_Adolf_Hit-ler_> lmfao
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1412 2012-10-16 23:06:08 <doublec> hm, my bitcoind on my pool is failing to start: /usr/include/boost/thread/pthread/recursive_mutex.hpp:62: boost::recursive_mutex::~recursive_mutex(): Assertion `!pthread_mutex_destroy(&m)' failed.
1413 2012-10-16 23:06:08 aq83 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1414 2012-10-16 23:06:44 * doublec investigates
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1421 2012-10-16 23:11:22 <jgarzik> sipa: not familiar with all the implications of submodules
1422 2012-10-16 23:11:47 <jgarzik> sipa: I know that mplayer and LLVM both have git sub-trees inside the main tree, for ffmpeg and clang respectively
1423 2012-10-16 23:12:13 <jgarzik> sipa: both include gadgetry to automatically check out said repositories into the working dir, thereby stitching together a usable tree
1424 2012-10-16 23:12:19 <jgarzik> sipa: seems prone to breakage, though
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1427 2012-10-16 23:15:57 <gmaxwell> I was going to comment that my expirence with git submodules has been pretty poor.
1428 2012-10-16 23:20:22 <Luke-Jr> in my experience, the problem was just automake-related
1429 2012-10-16 23:20:29 <Luke-Jr> the git side worked smooth
1430 2012-10-16 23:21:40 <MC1984> is multibit an SPV client?
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1434 2012-10-16 23:27:58 <sipa> MC1984: yes
1435 2012-10-16 23:28:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: ok
1436 2012-10-16 23:29:11 <MC1984> why did it download the last 800 blocks?
1437 2012-10-16 23:29:35 <gmaxwell> MC1984: to look for transactions for you
1438 2012-10-16 23:29:59 <MC1984> oh
1439 2012-10-16 23:30:23 <MC1984> its the kind of usability i wish satoshi had
1440 2012-10-16 23:30:29 <MC1984> but i have no idea who im trusting
1441 2012-10-16 23:30:58 <sipa> you are trusting miners
1442 2012-10-16 23:31:35 <MC1984> i just read the thin client security article and i still dont really know how spv works
1443 2012-10-16 23:31:39 <sipa> or more specifically: that no majority of hash power cooperates against the system
1444 2012-10-16 23:31:51 <MC1984> am i dumb or are lots of articles on that wiki badly written
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1448 2012-10-16 23:39:26 <D34TH> are all pkey's 64 chars in len?
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1454 2012-10-16 23:56:56 <denisx> the blocksplit to 25 btc also happens with a difficulty change, right?
1455 2012-10-16 23:58:11 <gmaxwell> No.
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1458 2012-10-16 23:59:28 <gmaxwell> At least not for 1337 years or so.