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   4 2012-10-17 00:03:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: do you have a writeup of the cross-chain trading method you stated was better than https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains ?
   5 2012-10-17 00:10:20 <doublec> weird. I have a node where getinfo always reports an old block and debug.log shows no blocks requested from peers
   6 2012-10-17 00:10:36 <doublec> but if I stop and start the node it reports a newer block on startup
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  10 2012-10-17 00:17:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: 24 years
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  37 2012-10-17 01:09:05 <graingert> gmaxwell: 1337 years?
  38 2012-10-17 01:09:11 <graingert> gmaxwell: difficulty change?
  39 2012-10-17 01:09:13 <graingert> whut
  40 2012-10-17 01:10:44 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  41 2012-10-17 01:10:53 <sipa> graingert: he was trying to be l33t
  42 2012-10-17 01:11:01 <graingert> sipa: whuuut
  43 2012-10-17 01:11:53 <sipa> google it :)
  44 2012-10-17 01:13:49 <graingert> I know what 1337 means
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  49 2012-10-17 01:16:11 <sipa> gmaxwell tried to imply that the 2016-block-difficulty-cycle-boundary wouldn't happen at the same time as the 210000-block-subsidy-cycle-boundary
  50 2012-10-17 01:16:19 <sipa> for 1337 years
  51 2012-10-17 01:16:28 <sipa> which is untrue - it happens every 24 years
  52 2012-10-17 01:18:26 <graingert> what's a 210000-block-subsidy-cycle-boundary
  53 2012-10-17 01:18:41 <graingert> oh is that a halving
  54 2012-10-17 01:18:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, dunno how I goofed that up.
  55 2012-10-17 01:18:58 <graingert> sigh
  56 2012-10-17 01:18:59 <graingert> sigh
  57 2012-10-17 01:19:00 <graingert> sigh
  58 2012-10-17 01:19:29 <gmaxwell> I didn't imply, I outright said. Math fail. It happens. :)
  59 2012-10-17 01:20:34 <sipa> doh... my gitian segfaulted and did all kinds of weird stuff apparently because kvm was still running
  60 2012-10-17 01:21:00 <sipa> one needs 3 hours of attempted and failed sleep to realise that, it seems
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 117 2012-10-17 03:16:37 <MC1984> How can we get a writing analysis done on all of Satoshi's written works to see if there is consistency among them? I am becoming more convinced we are dealing with an organization here a la Bavarian Illuminati, who started many of the world's revolutions
 118 2012-10-17 03:16:54 <MC1984> guess the poster
 119 2012-10-17 03:17:18 <Luke-Jr> …
 120 2012-10-17 03:17:34 <Luke-Jr> please, use quotation marks so I don't associate your name with insanity
 121 2012-10-17 03:18:47 <MC1984> ""
 122 2012-10-17 03:19:04 <graingert> MC1984: is it Bruce Wagner?
 123 2012-10-17 03:19:12 <MC1984> no
 124 2012-10-17 03:19:32 <graingert> whatever happened to him?
 125 2012-10-17 03:21:05 <MC1984> no cheating!
 126 2012-10-17 03:22:22 asuk has joined
 127 2012-10-17 03:22:34 <graingert> I cheated
 128 2012-10-17 03:22:38 <graingert> or should I say charted
 129 2012-10-17 03:22:42 <graingert> ohhhhhhhh
 130 2012-10-17 03:23:02 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
 131 2012-10-17 03:23:11 TheSeven has joined
 132 2012-10-17 03:23:18 <graingert> like as in charted the world
 133 2012-10-17 03:23:25 Transfuta has quit (Excess Flood)
 134 2012-10-17 03:23:32 <graingert> like as in a world map
 135 2012-10-17 03:23:40 <graingert> or like some sort of atlas
 136 2012-10-17 03:24:41 <graingert> MC1984: ^
 137 2012-10-17 03:24:52 ThomasV has joined
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 139 2012-10-17 03:26:35 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 140 2012-10-17 03:26:50 <MC1984> thats about as subtle as an air raid graingert
 141 2012-10-17 03:28:36 <amiller> satoshi nakamoto is almost an anagram for "took a shit in nam" hope this helps
 142 2012-10-17 03:28:49 <graingert> MC1984: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuaKlrTAEEE
 143 2012-10-17 03:29:53 <graingert> anagram-solver.net/?q=satoshi%20nakamoto&partial=1
 144 2012-10-17 03:29:58 <graingert> http://anagram-solver.net/?q=satoshi%20nakamoto&partial=1
 145 2012-10-17 03:34:06 <MC1984> "n addition, we isolated all the large transactions in the system, and discovered that almost all of them are closely related to a single large transaction that took place in November 2010, even though the associated users apparently tried to hide this fact with many strange looking long chains and fork-merge structures in the transaction graph."
 146 2012-10-17 03:34:26 <MC1984> that will be an interesting paper to read
 147 2012-10-17 03:34:44 <Diablo-D3> _lol_
 148 2012-10-17 03:35:10 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if they realize that "large transaction" was a major exchange, such as mtgox, moving cold wallets around
 149 2012-10-17 03:35:29 <Diablo-D3> and all the "associated" users are people who bought btc on mtgox and moved it out
 150 2012-10-17 03:35:53 <amiller> unbelievably that paper is coauthored by the S in RSA....
 151 2012-10-17 03:36:01 <amiller> i can't figure out wtf the point of it is though
 152 2012-10-17 03:36:07 <MC1984> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf here it is
 153 2012-10-17 03:36:40 <graingert> satoshi nakamoto is almost an anagram of A. T. Thomson
 154 2012-10-17 03:36:50 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 155 2012-10-17 03:36:57 <Diablo-D3> satoshi nakamoto is almost an anagram of my dick
 156 2012-10-17 03:37:10 <Diablo-D3> I mean, lets face it, my dick has a lot of brute force behind it.
 157 2012-10-17 03:39:25 <graingert> !help
 158 2012-10-17 03:39:25 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
 159 2012-10-17 03:39:39 <graingert> ;;help
 160 2012-10-17 03:39:40 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
 161 2012-10-17 03:39:42 Detritus has joined
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 163 2012-10-17 03:40:32 <galambo_> satoshi nakamoto is also an anagram for "monkish as aa toot "
 164 2012-10-17 03:40:39 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 165 2012-10-17 03:41:00 <galambo_> toot means fart for anyone wondering
 166 2012-10-17 03:43:02 <jgarzik> 10/17/12 03:31:27 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 1610e138e0 (poolsz 4163)
 167 2012-10-17 03:43:04 <jgarzik> good greif
 168 2012-10-17 03:43:08 <jgarzik> *grief
 169 2012-10-17 03:44:15 <jgarzik> 2 out of 3 recent blocks <100 tx
 170 2012-10-17 03:45:47 Transfusion is now known as Transfuta
 171 2012-10-17 03:46:00 <doublec> I found 203637 and that only had 406 transactions using stock bitcoind (no transaction logic changes)
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 176 2012-10-17 03:52:27 <galambo_> "This research was supported by the Citi Foundation."
 177 2012-10-17 03:53:01 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 178 2012-10-17 03:56:11 <galambo_> That makes me feel warm inside.
 179 2012-10-17 03:56:12 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lol
 180 2012-10-17 03:56:17 <phantomcircuit> "<Diablo-D3> I mean, lets face it, my dick has a lot of brute force behind it."
 181 2012-10-17 03:56:57 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, their analysis completely failed to identify intersango at all
 182 2012-10-17 03:57:13 RainbowD_ is now known as RainbowDashh
 183 2012-10-17 03:57:16 <phantomcircuit> and there is essentially zero effort put into keeping interango stuff anonymous
 184 2012-10-17 03:59:41 <Diablo-D3> hah
 185 2012-10-17 03:59:42 Perlboy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 186 2012-10-17 03:59:44 <Diablo-D3> I didnt even read the pdf
 187 2012-10-17 03:59:49 <Diablo-D3> and I already knew it was bullshit
 188 2012-10-17 04:01:11 <phantomcircuit> i suspect you could do some interesting graph analysis but that it would be massively computationally expensive to do
 189 2012-10-17 04:01:29 freakazoid has joined
 190 2012-10-17 04:01:34 <MC1984> the anonymity is still an open question isnt it
 191 2012-10-17 04:01:49 <MC1984> we need more hardcore research papers
 192 2012-10-17 04:01:53 <phantomcircuit> ultimately bitcoins biggest anonymity protection is coming up with mixing schemes that are computationally expensive to detect
 193 2012-10-17 04:02:24 <phantomcircuit> a max master style mixing network would be pretty much anonymous
 194 2012-10-17 04:02:30 <phantomcircuit> but would be massively expensive to operate
 195 2012-10-17 04:02:43 <amiller> this is pretty much the worst paper ever there is like no methodology whatsoever i dunno what else to say
 196 2012-10-17 04:03:02 <weex> what were they talking about in terms of html documents?
 197 2012-10-17 04:03:07 <weex> blockexplorer?
 198 2012-10-17 04:03:12 <phantomcircuit> and would only work on a specific block sizes (ie you'd always transfer a fixed size in every transaction)
 199 2012-10-17 04:03:19 <amiller> weex, they crawled blockexplorer.com
 200 2012-10-17 04:03:28 <weex> wow
 201 2012-10-17 04:03:33 <phantomcircuit> amiller, which explains why it was very slow for a while
 202 2012-10-17 04:03:55 <amiller> they gave the date they did this, may 2012 this year
 203 2012-10-17 04:03:57 <weex> they should have hired amiller as a consultant
 204 2012-10-17 04:04:23 <amiller> regarding anonymity
 205 2012-10-17 04:04:26 <phantomcircuit> they could have hired anybody from the community as a consultant and would have gotten far superior results
 206 2012-10-17 04:04:37 <amiller> that was solved adequatley in the 90s by david chaum, i have no idea why there aren't more mixnets
 207 2012-10-17 04:04:45 <amiller> blindbitcoin.com, while it was around, was a pretty sweet implementation of that
 208 2012-10-17 04:05:02 <amiller> ben laurie implemented chaumian blinding in Lucre, an open source patent-unencumbered version of that algorithm
 209 2012-10-17 04:05:50 Hasimir has joined
 210 2012-10-17 04:06:57 <phantomcircuit> amiller, well there are two issues with mix nets
 211 2012-10-17 04:07:13 <phantomcircuit> the most obvious being that operating one is almost certainly illegal in nearly every jurisdiction on the planet
 212 2012-10-17 04:07:29 <phantomcircuit> the more subtle one is that you would not be able to deny you received bitcoins from the mix net
 213 2012-10-17 04:07:36 <phantomcircuit> but would be able to deny where they came from
 214 2012-10-17 04:07:56 <phantomcircuit> in many jurisdictions this doesn't help you at all
 215 2012-10-17 04:08:11 <phantomcircuit> since money laundering is often a worse crime than whatever people are trying to mix them for
 216 2012-10-17 04:08:50 <MC1984> tor mixnet?
 217 2012-10-17 04:09:27 <phantomcircuit> i am surprised there aren't more options for mix master style networks
 218 2012-10-17 04:09:47 <phantomcircuit> theoretically you could have a relatively low latency high anonymity network simply be using a ton of fixed bandwidth
 219 2012-10-17 04:10:35 <phantomcircuit> i guess it's too expensive or something
 220 2012-10-17 04:11:24 <amiller> i guess without any sort of incentive to participate in a mixer it's not too surprising there aren't so many.... it's not fun and exciting like bitcoin mining
 221 2012-10-17 04:11:45 <phantomcircuit> amiller, and yet there are a TON of tor relay nodes
 222 2012-10-17 04:11:51 <phantomcircuit> (not a ton of exit nodes though)
 223 2012-10-17 04:12:43 <phantomcircuit> the main issue with something like that is the clients could reduce their anonymity simply by connecting to the network only when they're actively using it
 224 2012-10-17 04:12:56 <phantomcircuit> but in that case you've simply reduced your anonymity to that of tor today
 225 2012-10-17 04:12:59 <phantomcircuit> so it's not a big deal
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 229 2012-10-17 04:13:56 <phantomcircuit> also my attempt at turning this laptop into a 17W space heater has failed
 230 2012-10-17 04:14:03 sgstair has quit (Quit: .•«UPP»•.)
 231 2012-10-17 04:14:14 <MC1984> As can be seen from Table 2, 36% of all owners
 232 2012-10-17 04:14:14 <MC1984> received fewer than one BTC (currently worth about 12 USD) each throughout
 233 2012-10-17 04:14:14 <MC1984> their lifetime, 52% received fewer than 10 BTC's and 88% fewer than 100. At
 234 2012-10-17 04:14:14 <MC1984> the other end of the distribution there are only four owners who received over
 235 2012-10-17 04:14:14 <MC1984> 800,000 BTC's and 80 owners who received over 400,000.
 236 2012-10-17 04:14:18 <amiller> i'm still waiting for someone to come out and admit bitcoin is a novel consensus algortihm.
 237 2012-10-17 04:14:19 <phantomcircuit> cpu mining on it isn't causing full load on the cpu
 238 2012-10-17 04:14:26 <MC1984> occypy bitcoin
 239 2012-10-17 04:14:33 <phantomcircuit> amiller, shh you'll spook the users
 240 2012-10-17 04:15:00 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, that's when i realized they had fucked up their analysis
 241 2012-10-17 04:15:10 <phantomcircuit> i seriously doubt most real users have received few than 10 BTC
 242 2012-10-17 04:15:28 <MC1984> why?
 243 2012-10-17 04:15:35 <weex> amiller: someone recently wrote about it as a solution to the byzantine generals problem, is that what you mean?
 244 2012-10-17 04:16:01 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, because 10 BTC isn't enough to buy anything and most people trying to get BTC have something specific in mind to buy
 245 2012-10-17 04:16:02 <MC1984> faucet is the only easy way to get a pubkey in the chain, but getting 10 btc or more is had
 246 2012-10-17 04:16:04 <amiller> weex, yeah that's what i mean. is it on iacr?
 247 2012-10-17 04:16:07 <phantomcircuit> i wont venture a guess as to what...
 248 2012-10-17 04:16:14 <weex> one sec
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 252 2012-10-17 04:16:31 <phantomcircuit> weex, heh
 253 2012-10-17 04:17:04 <phantomcircuit> i've been trying to solve the byzantine generals problem in a distributed exchange system and have come to a system that works very well and is fast as hell
 254 2012-10-17 04:17:07 <phantomcircuit> it's loverly
 255 2012-10-17 04:17:34 <phantomcircuit> then i went and implemented it with django and an rpc backend and the average page load time is 500ms to do nothing
 256 2012-10-17 04:17:35 <phantomcircuit> :(
 257 2012-10-17 04:17:59 <MC1984> why would you design a distribyted exchange when youve got a server based one?
 258 2012-10-17 04:18:12 <weex> http://paulbohm.com/articles/bitcoins-value-is-decentralization/ is the one i was thinking of
 259 2012-10-17 04:18:30 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, for performance reasons
 260 2012-10-17 04:18:54 maaku has joined
 261 2012-10-17 04:18:56 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, if you're doing margin checks having the accounts be stripped across multiple servers is necessary
 262 2012-10-17 04:18:57 <weex> and then of course i realise it's 1.4 years old
 263 2012-10-17 04:19:05 <MC1984> oh you mean server clustering
 264 2012-10-17 04:19:20 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, yeah i dont mean one of those retarded "fuck the exchanges !" systems
 265 2012-10-17 04:19:23 <phantomcircuit> which lol dont work
 266 2012-10-17 04:19:35 Arnavion has joined
 267 2012-10-17 04:19:47 <phantomcircuit> the people working on those fundamentally dont understand what counter party risk is
 268 2012-10-17 04:19:54 <imisor> :>
 269 2012-10-17 04:20:06 <weex> exchange bank accounts + AML seem to be the current choke points
 270 2012-10-17 04:20:28 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately i now believe bitcoin will likely fail
 271 2012-10-17 04:20:32 <phantomcircuit> the timeline is wrong
 272 2012-10-17 04:20:49 <imisor> :|
 273 2012-10-17 04:20:51 <phantomcircuit> too much regulatory pressure is about to be applied for the existing exchanges to do anything about it
 274 2012-10-17 04:21:08 <phantomcircuit> with all the idiots doing illegal things left and right regulators have no choice but to act
 275 2012-10-17 04:21:37 <MC1984> you think that will happen
 276 2012-10-17 04:21:59 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, yes i do
 277 2012-10-17 04:22:15 <imisor> i thought bitcoin is .. somehow for a while "working"
 278 2012-10-17 04:22:20 <phantomcircuit> everybody operating in the us with MSB licenses are simply ignoring state money transmitter licensing
 279 2012-10-17 04:22:35 <phantomcircuit> an MSB license gets you a bank account with fewer hastles
 280 2012-10-17 04:22:36 <imisor> then it will fail, now it does work but not for long
 281 2012-10-17 04:22:41 asuk has joined
 282 2012-10-17 04:22:42 <phantomcircuit> but it doesn't actually mean you're operating legally
 283 2012-10-17 04:22:57 <imisor> phantomcircuit, yeah
 284 2012-10-17 04:23:01 <imisor> :|
 285 2012-10-17 04:23:14 <phantomcircuit> and i suspect european regulators will decide bitcoins are currency for the purposes of licensing
 286 2012-10-17 04:23:18 <phantomcircuit> if not now then very soon
 287 2012-10-17 04:23:37 <MC1984> you saying the exchenge system is gonna get hit file locker style
 288 2012-10-17 04:24:21 <phantomcircuit> yes except none of the exchanges have the resources to fight back
 289 2012-10-17 04:24:26 <phantomcircuit> it will simply be game over
 290 2012-10-17 04:24:44 <weex> btc price will need to rise before much more can be done on the aml policy/registration front
 291 2012-10-17 04:24:55 <MC1984> youre saying youre fucked?
 292 2012-10-17 04:25:01 <phantomcircuit> weex, why?
 293 2012-10-17 04:25:05 <weex> or a big investor will need to front those costs with vision
 294 2012-10-17 04:25:23 <weex> because otherwise there's no way to make back the investment through fees
 295 2012-10-17 04:25:31 <imisor> ..
 296 2012-10-17 04:25:44 <weex> $120M valuation can it seems support one big exchange
 297 2012-10-17 04:25:56 <imisor> sorry 'bout the idling i've been real busy :) yesterday drinking lol but ..
 298 2012-10-17 04:26:00 <phantomcircuit> weex, not even close
 299 2012-10-17 04:26:03 <weex> or small exchange depending how you see it
 300 2012-10-17 04:26:21 <phantomcircuit> weex, the proper licensing in the us would cost roughly 15 million dollars
 301 2012-10-17 04:26:33 <weex> phantomcircuit: where do you get that number?
 302 2012-10-17 04:26:49 <phantomcircuit> weex, you would need to be registered federally and with each state
 303 2012-10-17 04:27:01 <phantomcircuit> the federal registration (MSB w/ fincen) has no bonding requirements
 304 2012-10-17 04:27:03 maaku has quit (Quit: maaku)
 305 2012-10-17 04:27:11 asuk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 306 2012-10-17 04:27:15 <phantomcircuit> almost all the states have bonding requirements of 3+ million dollars
 307 2012-10-17 04:27:20 <imisor> i dunno if those guys are idiots some of them just dont care, they don't have any legal interest and just want money and get out.. or so
 308 2012-10-17 04:27:25 <weex> that i understand but 15M seems a bit much...either way btc price will need to rise for it to make sense
 309 2012-10-17 04:27:28 <phantomcircuit> typically a bond like that would cost about 3-5% /year
 310 2012-10-17 04:28:00 <phantomcircuit> that's ~7.2 million usd/year in just the cost of bonding
 311 2012-10-17 04:28:11 <phantomcircuit> weex, well that's my point
 312 2012-10-17 04:28:22 <phantomcircuit> if all the current exchanges get shuttered the price will fall
 313 2012-10-17 04:28:23 <imisor> who actually cares if its legal as long as it works and everyone is happy :D try to catch 45375123712 account-users
 314 2012-10-17 04:28:36 <phantomcircuit> and it will never rise to the point that it's worth the effort of getting licensed properly
 315 2012-10-17 04:29:07 <imisor> its like trying to take porn away from inet totally
 316 2012-10-17 04:29:12 <imisor> no fkn change lol
 317 2012-10-17 04:29:17 <weex> licensing costs can be increased as well
 318 2012-10-17 04:30:01 <phantomcircuit> weex, basically if the current exchanges are forced to become licensed in the us properly bitcoin fails
 319 2012-10-17 04:30:17 <phantomcircuit> if they continue to operate the way they do now then it succeeds
 320 2012-10-17 04:30:40 <phantomcircuit> im guessing there is a roughly 1-2 year window of time in which massive regulatory pressure would destroy bitcoin
 321 2012-10-17 04:30:53 <weex> bitcoin will just route around damage
 322 2012-10-17 04:31:06 <phantomcircuit> weex, unlikely since that costs money
 323 2012-10-17 04:31:41 <weex> imagine mtgox has their accounts frozen, you think everyone throws in the towel?
 324 2012-10-17 04:31:49 <phantomcircuit> weex, probably
 325 2012-10-17 04:31:54 <phantomcircuit> not everybody
 326 2012-10-17 04:32:05 <phantomcircuit> but probably 90% of people just give up
 327 2012-10-17 04:32:16 <phantomcircuit> at the very least the price falls dramatically
 328 2012-10-17 04:32:27 <weex> defining price is a bit harder then
 329 2012-10-17 04:32:55 <phantomcircuit> weex, the real value in terms of what you can get for them would almost certainly plummet
 330 2012-10-17 04:33:06 <phantomcircuit> i actually dont see mtgox's accounts getting frozen
 331 2012-10-17 04:33:17 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 332 2012-10-17 04:33:34 <phantomcircuit> but us customers access to mtgox could be dramatically restricted
 333 2012-10-17 04:34:02 <MC1984> why so US centric?
 334 2012-10-17 04:34:10 <MC1984> whole world out there
 335 2012-10-17 04:34:14 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, the vast majority of bitcoin users are in the us
 336 2012-10-17 04:34:24 <imisor> mm
 337 2012-10-17 04:34:35 <MC1984> yes, that would change if
 338 2012-10-17 04:34:39 <phantomcircuit> when intersango had ~90% of the UK market it was just barely making enough money to pay for my time
 339 2012-10-17 04:34:44 <MC1984> us regulators went crazy
 340 2012-10-17 04:34:48 <phantomcircuit> and wasn't even close to paying for donald and amirs time
 341 2012-10-17 04:35:00 Detritus has joined
 342 2012-10-17 04:35:41 <phantomcircuit> the regulatory framework in the us is flexible enough that the regulators can pretty much do whatever they want
 343 2012-10-17 04:35:58 <phantomcircuit> there are hundreds of thousands of obscure rules that probably everybody is violating
 344 2012-10-17 04:36:10 <phantomcircuit> (and i mean everybody in a very literal sense)
 345 2012-10-17 04:36:15 <MC1984> yeah its rigged for tee huge players, we know this
 346 2012-10-17 04:36:27 <weex> phantomcircuit: you don't sound optimistic
 347 2012-10-17 04:36:38 <phantomcircuit> weex, uh yeah im not super optimistic
 348 2012-10-17 04:36:51 <MC1984> is this why you killed usd exchange on sango? fear getting v&?
 349 2012-10-17 04:36:58 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, right but my point is more so that bitcoin is attracting far too much attention from regulatory agencies than the major players can withstand
 350 2012-10-17 04:37:22 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, well really it doesn't make anything (iirc is made like $50 last month)
 351 2012-10-17 04:37:40 <weex> don't spend it all at once place
 352 2012-10-17 04:37:42 <phantomcircuit> the fee from the backing bank was like 50% of revenues lol
 353 2012-10-17 04:38:03 <phantomcircuit> weex, yeah really
 354 2012-10-17 04:38:33 Pasha is now known as Cory
 355 2012-10-17 04:38:49 <MC1984> you still getting your uk accounts shut down too?
 356 2012-10-17 04:38:52 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, im probably going to close the PLN market also
 357 2012-10-17 04:39:05 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, we dont even have a uk account for them to close at this point
 358 2012-10-17 04:39:12 <phantomcircuit> nobody does
 359 2012-10-17 04:39:16 <phantomcircuit> hint hint
 360 2012-10-17 04:39:24 <phantomcircuit> that kind of shit doesn't happen by coincidence
 361 2012-10-17 04:39:33 <MC1984> well fuck
 362 2012-10-17 04:39:59 <phantomcircuit> mtgox's barclays account was closed without warning on what the 24th?
 363 2012-10-17 04:40:25 <phantomcircuit> is mtgox.com not loading or is it just me
 364 2012-10-17 04:40:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah the 25th
 365 2012-10-17 04:41:00 <MC1984> bit slow
 366 2012-10-17 04:41:07 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, our metro account was closed on the 12th
 367 2012-10-17 04:41:23 <phantomcircuit> metro bank is a correspondent bank with barclays
 368 2012-10-17 04:41:34 <weex> phantomcircuit: no little banks want to take a chance?
 369 2012-10-17 04:41:48 <phantomcircuit> there are no little banks in the uk
 370 2012-10-17 04:41:51 <MC1984> tried co-op or something?
 371 2012-10-17 04:41:56 <weex> you need a veridian credit union like dwolla got
 372 2012-10-17 04:42:18 <phantomcircuit> http://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/faster_payments/how_to_use_the_faster_payments_service_new/-/page/1948/
 373 2012-10-17 04:42:32 <MC1984> so bitcoin was always based on the cooperation of the banks??
 374 2012-10-17 04:42:33 <phantomcircuit> those 10 banks are the only options
 375 2012-10-17 04:42:42 <MC1984> theres no other way?
 376 2012-10-17 04:42:54 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, you can go around trading with people in person
 377 2012-10-17 04:42:58 <weex> go get the unbanked!
 378 2012-10-17 04:43:01 <phantomcircuit> but until there is critical mass that's a non-starter
 379 2012-10-17 04:43:15 <phantomcircuit> every other bank is nothing more than a correspondent of one of those ten
 380 2012-10-17 04:43:36 <MC1984> co-operative
 381 2012-10-17 04:43:43 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, said no
 382 2012-10-17 04:43:50 <MC1984> fuck
 383 2012-10-17 04:43:56 <phantomcircuit> i dont know about Clydesdale
 384 2012-10-17 04:44:24 <weex> the UK is going lose out big in the Bitcoin economy
 385 2012-10-17 04:44:28 <phantomcircuit> barclays/citi/coop/hsbc/lloyds/nationwide/santander all said no
 386 2012-10-17 04:44:47 <phantomcircuit> you'll notice that bitinstants uk bank isn't a bank in their name
 387 2012-10-17 04:45:00 <phantomcircuit> it's a third party payments processor that im sure has no idea what's going to hit them
 388 2012-10-17 04:46:03 <MC1984> what about running a service that facilitates third party excanging
 389 2012-10-17 04:46:38 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, you're not just bitcoin.de
 390 2012-10-17 04:46:47 <phantomcircuit> or wait wrong one
 391 2012-10-17 04:46:53 <phantomcircuit> no yeah right one
 392 2012-10-17 04:47:13 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, you're basically ignoring the counter party risk
 393 2012-10-17 04:47:27 <phantomcircuit> the value in an exchange is reducing the counter party risk to near zero
 394 2012-10-17 04:47:55 <phantomcircuit> it's hard to exchange things when the risk is so massively skewed
 395 2012-10-17 04:48:05 <MC1984> well you need to trust the exchange
 396 2012-10-17 04:48:24 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, that's the point
 397 2012-10-17 04:48:36 <phantomcircuit> it's easier to trust a single entity than it is to trust hundreds of random traders
 398 2012-10-17 04:48:46 <phantomcircuit> think about an escrow exchange
 399 2012-10-17 04:48:48 <weex> if an exchange can't hold fiat, then all they can do is connect people, provide a reputation system, and do escrow
 400 2012-10-17 04:48:52 <phantomcircuit> you want to buy a TON of bitcoins
 401 2012-10-17 04:49:08 <phantomcircuit> you're going to have to do hundreds of bank transfers to buy them
 402 2012-10-17 04:49:27 <phantomcircuit> with an exchange that's not your problem
 403 2012-10-17 04:49:34 <phantomcircuit> you're paying for someone else to do it
 404 2012-10-17 04:49:51 maaku has joined
 405 2012-10-17 04:50:38 <MC1984> so bitcoin may be gacing a financial blockade sitution wikileaks style
 406 2012-10-17 04:50:41 <MC1984> wink and nod
 407 2012-10-17 04:51:00 <phantomcircuit> pretty much
 408 2012-10-17 04:51:12 <phantomcircuit> wikileaks solution was to sue a bunch of people
 409 2012-10-17 04:51:28 <phantomcircuit> notice they're still blocked
 410 2012-10-17 04:51:50 <MC1984> sooooooooo
 411 2012-10-17 04:52:08 <MC1984> the biggest reason why bitcoin exists is the reason why it will fail
 412 2012-10-17 04:53:27 DerCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 413 2012-10-17 04:54:03 <weex> RIP Bitcoin 2012 - A victim of its own success.
 414 2012-10-17 04:54:08 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, no the reason it will fail is people being nob heads
 415 2012-10-17 04:54:19 <phantomcircuit> there are far too many people being obnoxious
 416 2012-10-17 04:54:34 <phantomcircuit> the community is nothing short of vicious
 417 2012-10-17 04:55:01 <weex> the same could be said of youtube commenters
 418 2012-10-17 04:55:05 <MC1984> well yeah but youre probably biased there
 419 2012-10-17 04:55:49 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, i've had a number of people tell me they decided not to accept bitcoins after seeing the forum
 420 2012-10-17 04:56:18 <phantomcircuit> and im talking people who could have made a substantial impact on the marketability of bitcoins
 421 2012-10-17 04:56:39 <MC1984> bitcoins are irreversible, what do the forum assholes matter?
 422 2012-10-17 04:57:08 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, lets say you operate a boring company selling boring things
 423 2012-10-17 04:57:10 <phantomcircuit> but you're huge
 424 2012-10-17 04:57:19 <phantomcircuit> you have a good reputation
 425 2012-10-17 04:57:21 <phantomcircuit> people liek you
 426 2012-10-17 04:57:31 <phantomcircuit> you think bitcoins are cool and want to accept them
 427 2012-10-17 04:57:46 <phantomcircuit> so you ask yourself, who will the customers be that purchase with bitcoins?
 428 2012-10-17 04:57:58 <phantomcircuit> nobody wants to have customers like the people on the forum
 429 2012-10-17 04:58:13 <weex> maybe there's a market for therapy
 430 2012-10-17 04:58:16 <phantomcircuit> so they decide that the revenue isn't worth the hastle and potential damage to their brand
 431 2012-10-17 04:58:23 <phantomcircuit> and they move on with their life
 432 2012-10-17 04:59:15 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, take intersango and bitcoinica as an example
 433 2012-10-17 04:59:25 <phantomcircuit> they are separate businesses both legally and actually
 434 2012-10-17 04:59:35 <phantomcircuit> and yet damage from one is clearly effecting the other
 435 2012-10-17 04:59:44 <MC1984> you really think the couple of gundred wingnut on that forum is generally indacative of the bitcoin userbase?
 436 2012-10-17 04:59:57 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, actually...
 437 2012-10-17 05:00:16 <phantomcircuit> lets put it this way
 438 2012-10-17 05:00:43 <phantomcircuit> any service i offer going forward which accepts bitcoins will require registrations to be approved
 439 2012-10-17 05:01:00 <phantomcircuit> customer selection will be manual and fairly rigorous
 440 2012-10-17 05:01:24 <MC1984> you honestly sound bitter as hell
 441 2012-10-17 05:01:28 <MC1984> i could see why
 442 2012-10-17 05:01:41 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, im reasonably bitter
 443 2012-10-17 05:01:47 <MC1984> maybe your right
 444 2012-10-17 05:01:53 <phantomcircuit> that doesn't change that what im saying comes from a significant amount of experience
 445 2012-10-17 05:02:20 <MC1984> but that means we need our asses owned by the banks and govt and stuff because people are otherwise savages, and that is almost too much to bear
 446 2012-10-17 05:02:41 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, that's not really what im saying though
 447 2012-10-17 05:02:57 <phantomcircuit> the bitcoin community is not even close to being indicative of the world at large
 448 2012-10-17 05:03:08 <phantomcircuit> most people aren't scammers and assholes
 449 2012-10-17 05:03:13 <MC1984> right
 450 2012-10-17 05:03:18 <phantomcircuit> the problem is bitcoin is a magnet for people who are
 451 2012-10-17 05:03:29 <MC1984> right
 452 2012-10-17 05:03:40 <phantomcircuit> like the strongest magnet in the fucking universe
 453 2012-10-17 05:03:54 <phantomcircuit> :/
 454 2012-10-17 05:03:59 <MC1984> seems that way
 455 2012-10-17 05:04:07 <weex> what about litecoin?
 456 2012-10-17 05:04:40 <MC1984> that still wort of implies there is truly no other way that government fiat regulated out the ass
 457 2012-10-17 05:04:47 <gmaxwell> Superconducting scammer solenoid.
 458 2012-10-17 05:05:19 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, what im saying is that bitcoin needed to have gotten much bigger must faster to outrun the scammers and assholes
 459 2012-10-17 05:05:37 <phantomcircuit> and to get to the point where properly setup and registered businesses would become economically viable
 460 2012-10-17 05:05:41 <gmaxwell> Perhaps if we figure out how to modulate it right we can accelerate the scammers to a large fraction of the speed of light and launch them into the sun?
 461 2012-10-17 05:05:42 <phantomcircuit> and it hasn't done that
 462 2012-10-17 05:05:55 <phantomcircuit> and i expect a massive amount of regulatory pressure to be just around the corner
 463 2012-10-17 05:05:59 <weex> gmaxwell: setup an IPO and I'll invest :P
 464 2012-10-17 05:06:00 RainbowDashh is now known as pomf_
 465 2012-10-17 05:06:21 <MC1984> you make a good argument
 466 2012-10-17 05:06:23 <gmaxwell> weex: first we need to buy a 50 km ring of land in nigeria.
 467 2012-10-17 05:06:35 <MC1984> perhaps bitcoin will simmer for a few years more
 468 2012-10-17 05:06:40 <weex> i think scammers and assholes are quicker than honest folk
 469 2012-10-17 05:06:54 <weex> so i don't see speed being a solution
 470 2012-10-17 05:06:54 <gmaxwell> But good news: I found an investor with 20 million in highly liquid form there.. they just need 50 btc to solve some customs problems.
 471 2012-10-17 05:07:09 <phantomcircuit> given the current market size
 472 2012-10-17 05:07:12 <weex> gmaxwell: oh you got my email?
 473 2012-10-17 05:07:16 <phantomcircuit> simmer is pretty much a guaranteed way to fail
 474 2012-10-17 05:07:37 Guest1747 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 475 2012-10-17 05:07:47 <MC1984> its probably a gppd testament to the technical competency of bitcoin that it has become swamed in scams so quick
 476 2012-10-17 05:08:07 <phantomcircuit> hilariously i would have to agree
 477 2012-10-17 05:08:13 * weex is glad he wasn't around when the axe was invented
 478 2012-10-17 05:08:49 <MC1984> then again scammers always exist, i think the rea assholes of bitcoin are the people getting taken in again and again and then hitting the forums about it
 479 2012-10-17 05:08:51 <gmaxwell> well at least that with all that hostile attention and people are still the weakest link.
 480 2012-10-17 05:09:30 <jgarzik> the forums are really an embarrassing ghetto.  but no good replacement is in sight :(
 481 2012-10-17 05:09:58 <weex> probably just the rest of the world will have to overshadow it
 482 2012-10-17 05:10:07 <MC1984> weex interestingly enough im watching a docu about the bronze age and the invention of the axe right now
 483 2012-10-17 05:10:20 <gmaxwell> I wish atlas hadn't been allowed back. He's really dragged it down in a bunch of places.
 484 2012-10-17 05:10:37 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
 485 2012-10-17 05:10:40 <MC1984> very quickly people started to make tiny useless little axes that were actually currency
 486 2012-10-17 05:10:42 <Diablo-D3> its not like bitcoin is worth caring about
 487 2012-10-17 05:10:43 <MC1984> so lol
 488 2012-10-17 05:10:59 <MC1984> sl##
 489 2012-10-17 05:11:14 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you know, why the hell isnt there some way to describe concurrency as a currency?
 490 2012-10-17 05:11:21 <Diablo-D3> or some sort of other absurd wordplay
 491 2012-10-17 05:11:26 <gmaxwell> I mean, bitcoin had pirate recently, USD had zeek rewars. Even our scammers are small taters.
 492 2012-10-17 05:11:57 <MC1984> some guy found 400 little axe heads buried in a field in england, obviously a horde
 493 2012-10-17 05:12:17 <Diablo-D3> fuck axe, I'm on a horse.
 494 2012-10-17 05:12:50 <MC1984> heres the kicker, the bronze axe bubble burst with the invention of iron
 495 2012-10-17 05:13:02 <MC1984> nothing ever fucking changes does it lol
 496 2012-10-17 05:13:50 <Diablo-D3> Im going to bed
 497 2012-10-17 05:13:51 <Diablo-D3> night all
 498 2012-10-17 05:14:33 <MC1984> atlas is a total cunt
 499 2012-10-17 05:14:53 <MC1984> he does it on purpose and prob has like 20 socls
 500 2012-10-17 05:14:57 <MC1984> socks
 501 2012-10-17 05:16:00 <jgarzik> allowing blatantly obvious scams on the forums and GLBSE was (a) stupid and (b) a black eye for bitcoin
 502 2012-10-17 05:16:12 spreelanka has quit (Quit: spreelanka)
 503 2012-10-17 05:16:55 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: then why are we not lowering our regard for the large number of people who defended many of the scams?
 504 2012-10-17 05:17:37 <MC1984> is pirate our madoff?
 505 2012-10-17 05:17:42 Neskia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 506 2012-10-17 05:17:43 Nesetalis has joined
 507 2012-10-17 05:17:47 <jgarzik> time
 508 2012-10-17 05:17:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, god i hope we are
 509 2012-10-17 05:18:00 <phantomcircuit> i certainly have no respect for the people who did
 510 2012-10-17 05:18:11 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 511 2012-10-17 05:18:13 nsh has joined
 512 2012-10-17 05:18:37 <jgarzik> Nobody has time to run a good forum.  If I deleted the mountain of shit on the forums, I'd get kicked.
 513 2012-10-17 05:18:53 <jgarzik> if there was time in the day...  it could be done
 514 2012-10-17 05:19:38 <jgarzik> bitcoin, right now, is getting over the crypto-anarchist delusion that pseudonymous entities are trustworthy
 515 2012-10-17 05:19:49 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you have no respect for midnightmagic? for copumpkin?
 516 2012-10-17 05:19:49 <phantomcircuit> running a forum that isn't shit isn't rocket science
 517 2012-10-17 05:19:57 <jgarzik> learning the hard way that trust is required for money
 518 2012-10-17 05:20:05 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: it takes time, not brains
 519 2012-10-17 05:20:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, for their scam spotting abilities? not really
 520 2012-10-17 05:20:22 <phantomcircuit> are they nice people
 521 2012-10-17 05:20:23 <phantomcircuit> yes
 522 2012-10-17 05:20:41 toffoo has joined
 523 2012-10-17 05:20:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, a lot of time can be saved by requiring any viciously mean shit to be said non-anonymously
 524 2012-10-17 05:21:00 <phantomcircuit> all of a sudden nobody says it
 525 2012-10-17 05:21:48 <MC1984> thats not very free speech bruh
 526 2012-10-17 05:23:04 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, it's actually very free speech
 527 2012-10-17 05:23:11 <phantomcircuit> if you've got something to say say it
 528 2012-10-17 05:23:57 <MC1984> non anon speech is not truly free
 529 2012-10-17 05:24:29 <MC1984> what people do with that power is often annoying
 530 2012-10-17 05:24:34 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, if you're afraid to make an accusation as yourself
 531 2012-10-17 05:24:41 <phantomcircuit> then possibly you shouldn't be making it
 532 2012-10-17 05:25:34 <MC1984> yeah
 533 2012-10-17 05:25:45 <MC1984> but there are goos reasons why the opposite is true
 534 2012-10-17 05:26:20 <MC1984> cant make an exception for the shitstorm over bitcoinica
 535 2012-10-17 05:26:46 nsh has quit ()
 536 2012-10-17 05:26:47 <MC1984> as they say the solution to shitty free speech is more speech
 537 2012-10-17 05:27:03 nsh has joined
 538 2012-10-17 05:29:17 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, except it's usually not
 539 2012-10-17 05:29:44 <phantomcircuit> people will lie cheat and steal to get ahead
 540 2012-10-17 05:29:59 <phantomcircuit> i know for a fact that tihan has multiple forum accounts which he uses to bad mouth me
 541 2012-10-17 05:30:07 <phantomcircuit> there is little to nothing i can do about that
 542 2012-10-17 05:30:13 <phantomcircuit> and he knows it
 543 2012-10-17 05:30:42 Bwild has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 544 2012-10-17 05:30:42 <MC1984> i didnt say it always worked
 545 2012-10-17 05:31:01 <phantomcircuit> the problem is that it rarely works
 546 2012-10-17 05:31:07 <phantomcircuit> as the forums to clearly demonstrate
 547 2012-10-17 05:31:22 <phantomcircuit> oppressive censorship of everything is bad
 548 2012-10-17 05:31:36 <MC1984> if youre talking about the bitcoinica situation you guys seemed to have gone really quiet after the second hack though
 549 2012-10-17 05:31:54 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, there isn't anything to say
 550 2012-10-17 05:31:59 <phantomcircuit> it's going to liquidation
 551 2012-10-17 05:32:03 <phantomcircuit> it has been since that day
 552 2012-10-17 05:32:07 <MC1984> yeah
 553 2012-10-17 05:32:25 Hasimir_ has joined
 554 2012-10-17 05:32:34 <phantomcircuit> anybody expecting this to get resolved quickly is out of their mind
 555 2012-10-17 05:32:43 <phantomcircuit> the normal world of courts is slow
 556 2012-10-17 05:32:59 <phantomcircuit> throw in principles being in multiple time zones and you've got something that is going to take forever
 557 2012-10-17 05:33:28 Bwild has joined
 558 2012-10-17 05:33:58 <MC1984> the facts are indeed thus but withdrawing doesnt seem to have helped the speech situation
 559 2012-10-17 05:34:10 <MC1984> like u said with tihan shittalking
 560 2012-10-17 05:34:11 Gladamas has joined
 561 2012-10-17 05:34:36 <MC1984> if the forums ar that important youd have to atleast try to counter the bullshit
 562 2012-10-17 05:34:41 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, my words will be very clear and devastating
 563 2012-10-17 05:34:57 <phantomcircuit> they will come from the pen (ok keyboard) of very expensive attorneys
 564 2012-10-17 05:35:00 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 565 2012-10-17 05:35:15 <phantomcircuit> various people are going to come away from this with nothing to their name
 566 2012-10-17 05:35:24 <vazakl> forums = den of lies
 567 2012-10-17 05:35:29 <vazakl> sockpuppet central
 568 2012-10-17 05:35:50 <MC1984> oh if youve been advised to not speak about it then thats different
 569 2012-10-17 05:36:43 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, my best move legally was to fuck over 90% of the bitcoinica users and walk away
 570 2012-10-17 05:37:28 <phantomcircuit> i said i wasn't going to do that and have no at great personal expense got people suing me
 571 2012-10-17 05:37:28 <phantomcircuit> no good deal goes unpunished
 572 2012-10-17 05:38:09 <phantomcircuit> dead
 573 2012-10-17 05:38:30 <phantomcircuit> the fuck
 574 2012-10-17 05:38:35 <phantomcircuit> the wifi in this house is retarded
 575 2012-10-17 05:38:48 slush has joined
 576 2012-10-17 05:38:48 <phantomcircuit> if i move my laptop 2 ft throughput drops from 400 KiB/s to 100 KiB/s
 577 2012-10-17 05:39:21 <MC1984> more likely antenna orientation
 578 2012-10-17 05:39:45 <phantomcircuit> well it's a british house
 579 2012-10-17 05:39:54 <phantomcircuit> the heating system is a steam radiator system
 580 2012-10-17 05:40:03 <phantomcircuit> so there's all sorts of weirdness with reflections and things
 581 2012-10-17 05:40:26 <MC1984> hahaha welcome to britain
 582 2012-10-17 05:40:54 <MC1984> also we dont have mixer taps so your choices are scalding hot or freezing cold
 583 2012-10-17 05:41:36 <MC1984> by tap i mean faucet, i think
 584 2012-10-17 05:42:01 <phantomcircuit> yeah why the fuck would you do that
 585 2012-10-17 05:42:01 <phantomcircuit> seriously
 586 2012-10-17 05:42:01 <phantomcircuit> who thought that was a good idea
 587 2012-10-17 05:42:23 <phantomcircuit> yeah i know what you meant
 588 2012-10-17 05:42:46 <MC1984> i dont know
 589 2012-10-17 05:43:49 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 592 2012-10-17 05:49:08 <robbak> Hi all. Is there a loopy host somewhere in the testnet? My up to date, current-git clinet is now saying there is 14440 block remaining. I'm at block 33321, which is current according to block explorer.
 593 2012-10-17 05:49:22 <robbak> It did this a couple of days ago, too.
 594 2012-10-17 05:49:41 <gmaxwell> pastebit getpeerinfo output
 595 2012-10-17 05:49:48 <gmaxwell> er pastebin.
 596 2012-10-17 05:51:38 <MC1984> i have become significantly better at typing in the dark
 597 2012-10-17 05:51:38 * phantomcircuit goes to register pastebi
 598 2012-10-17 05:51:39 <phantomcircuit> t
 599 2012-10-17 05:51:51 <phantomcircuit> *joke about fapping*
 600 2012-10-17 05:52:22 <gmaxwell> well, the keys are right next to each other.
 601 2012-10-17 05:52:25 <robbak> Here it is: all host seem to be closte to currenthttp://pastebin.com/PAkmJ6ZQ
 602 2012-10-17 05:53:13 <robbak> All hosts either seem to be fairly current, or at -1
 603 2012-10-17 05:53:22 <gmaxwell> robbak: interesting! the blocks remaining thing is supposted to be a median operation on the starting heights. Sounds like there must be a memory corruption bug or some locking issue.
 604 2012-10-17 05:53:55 <robbak> It would be fixed by closing and reopening.
 605 2012-10-17 05:54:04 <gmaxwell> robbak: is it?
 606 2012-10-17 05:54:21 <gmaxwell> or at least changed?
 607 2012-10-17 05:54:37 <robbak> Shal I try? it would prevent any debugging.
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 610 2012-10-17 05:55:25 <gmaxwell> If you can produce it twice then I assume its reproucable to some extent.
 611 2012-10-17 05:57:09 <robbak> OK. Close bitcoin, restart, and it states it is current at 33321. Now there are no old hosts, and none at -1.
 612 2012-10-17 05:58:17 <gmaxwell> 47761 sounds like where old testnet was but (1) you shouldn't be able to connect to those, and (2) you had no peers reporting that.
 613 2012-10-17 05:59:04 <robbak> I wonder if it was taking the two Ufssoft peers claiming -1, reading that as unsigned, and averaging it too high?
 614 2012-10-17 05:59:19 <robbak> Probably not, as you said it was median, non mean.
 615 2012-10-17 05:59:45 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's a median, and even if it were a mean.. reading -1 as an unsigned int would be hard to average down to 47761.
 616 2012-10-17 06:00:03 <robbak> I'm also running it on FreeBSD, so if anyone might tickle a corner case bug, it'd be me. And: yes, true!
 617 2012-10-17 06:01:13 <gmaxwell> did you happen tho have more than 297432 peers? :P
 618 2012-10-17 06:01:38 <gmaxwell> (thats what it takes of 33321 hosts to average 2^32-1 down to 47761... :P )
 619 2012-10-17 06:04:02 <robbak> Not quite! 19, and two claiming -1.
 620 2012-10-17 06:04:35 <robbak> Is starting height the height when my client first saw the host? Does any field tell me what that peer's current height is?
 621 2012-10-17 06:06:44 Hasimir_ is now known as Hasimir
 622 2012-10-17 06:07:24 <gmaxwell> nope, no field for current height. We don't know it.
 623 2012-10-17 06:11:41 <robbak> Have you had a look at that blockchain? It looks fine to me.
 624 2012-10-17 06:11:54 ovidiusoft has joined
 625 2012-10-17 06:14:11 <maaku> The commits of Oct 11-14--are those meant for the 0.7.1 release?
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 628 2012-10-17 06:24:43 <robbak> There are a couple of these messages in the logs: receive version message: version 60001, blocks=47773, us=127.0.0.1:18333, them=127.0.0.1:18333, peer=86.9.72.154:38081
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 632 2012-10-17 06:26:50 <gmaxwell> ah that must be it, the disconnect for the mismatched version must be happening _after_ it takes their blockcount foor the median.
 633 2012-10-17 06:26:59 root2 has joined
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 635 2012-10-17 06:27:49 <robbak> Other messages list peers 166.137.97.211:46812 and 150.250.112.197:56995 wth wrong blocks= numbers
 636 2012-10-17 06:28:27 <gmaxwell> sure, thats testnet2 nodes.
 637 2012-10-17 06:28:32 <robbak> Ah. So those ones are running the old testnet!
 638 2012-10-17 06:28:53 <gmaxwell> because they have a different protocol version it should disconnect them right away.
 639 2012-10-17 06:29:00 <gmaxwell> but apparently not fast enough.
 640 2012-10-17 06:30:55 <robbak> My client is still fine; it hasn't happened yet.
 641 2012-10-17 06:32:08 <robbak> Those addresses are not in the old pastbin output.
 642 2012-10-17 06:32:17 <robbak> Pitty the log file doesn't have timestamps.
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 645 2012-10-17 06:41:56 <gmaxwell> -logtimestamps=1
 646 2012-10-17 06:42:29 <gmaxwell> robbak: they wouldn't be in the pastebin output, getpeetinfo only shows connected peers and those would have been disconnected. right awway.
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 652 2012-10-17 07:05:10 <robbak> gmaxwell: Yes, that's it. Line 2536 of main.cpp calls cPeerBlockCounts.input(ofrom->nStartingHeight) unconditionally.
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 654 2012-10-17 07:08:08 <robbak> Should this be protected by an if on pfrom->nVersion, or is it something that really does't matter?
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 751 2012-10-17 13:17:53 <gavinandresen>  * [new tag]         v0.7.1 -> v0.7.1
 752 2012-10-17 13:20:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: building
 753 2012-10-17 13:20:39 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: great, thanks
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 760 2012-10-17 13:23:53 <gavinandresen> sipa: ultraprune synced nicely for me and ran with no issues overnight. I plan on doing code review on my train trip this afternoon down to NYC
 761 2012-10-17 13:24:37 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok, great to hear
 762 2012-10-17 13:25:19 <Tykling> is ultraprune a faster way of fetching the blockchain ? anywhere I can read about it ?
 763 2012-10-17 13:25:27 <sipa> Tykling: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1677
 764 2012-10-17 13:26:04 <sipa> gavinandresen: i edited the first comment on the pullreq page with a list of essential implementation changes
 765 2012-10-17 13:26:41 <gavinandresen> sipa: great.  I haven't tested upgrading, does that work properly?
 766 2012-10-17 13:27:43 <sipa> there's no upgrade code right now
 767 2012-10-17 13:27:56 CrazyMF has joined
 768 2012-10-17 13:28:09 <gavinandresen> ok, I won't test it then!
 769 2012-10-17 13:28:33 <Tykling> sipa: thanks
 770 2012-10-17 13:29:16 <sipa> upgrading would be: move block files (perhaps split, but that's not necessary), remove blkindex.dat, do something similar to -reindex
 771 2012-10-17 13:29:20 <sipa> but that needs work
 772 2012-10-17 13:29:26 <gavinandresen> sipa:  do the simplest possible thing that will work for upgrading-- it is a one-time event, so I don't care if the simplest thing is "remove blk* and start from scratch"
 773 2012-10-17 13:30:00 <sipa> -reindex is generally useful, so having that would be nice anyway
 774 2012-10-17 13:30:07 <sipa> on top of that, upgrading is very easy
 775 2012-10-17 13:30:18 <CrazyMF> yeah hi. I've been reading about getwork extensions and came across a line saying that bitcoind supports rollntime, but does not advertise it. Does it mean that I can safely roll within "sane" values or I need to include some header with my getwork request ?
 776 2012-10-17 13:30:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: (RE 0.7.1)  yay
 777 2012-10-17 13:30:31 <gmaxwell> well reindex doesn't give you the chain storage reorg.
 778 2012-10-17 13:30:40 Dazarrr has joined
 779 2012-10-17 13:30:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok.  upgrade --> downgrade  --> upgrade should leave things in a reasonable state, too
 780 2012-10-17 13:31:07 <gmaxwell> Another alternative is loadblocking the old chain.
 781 2012-10-17 13:31:16 <gavinandresen> (where "reasonable" can mean two sets of block data wasting disk space)
 782 2012-10-17 13:31:21 <sipa> gavinandresen: do you really want to leave the old blkindex.dat and block files in state?
 783 2012-10-17 13:31:25 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: which is precisely what -reindex does
 784 2012-10-17 13:31:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I thought reindex worked in place?
 785 2012-10-17 13:32:04 <gavinandresen> sipa:  no, I think upgrading should remove at the very least blkindex.dat.  And probably at the very least move blk000*.dat
 786 2012-10-17 13:33:00 <sipa> gavinandresen: agree; but we'll indeed need to make sure that downgrading again keeps working
 787 2012-10-17 13:33:01 <jgarzik> why not leave the old database and files, as is?
 788 2012-10-17 13:33:17 <sipa> jgarzik: because apparently 4.5 GB of storage is a lot to many people
 789 2012-10-17 13:33:49 <jgarzik> I think the "upgrader" should remove the old data
 790 2012-10-17 13:33:53 <jgarzik> but initial merge shouldn't bother
 791 2012-10-17 13:33:53 <gmaxwell> chewing up an extra 4 GB kinda stinks but it's not the end of the world. more subtly I'd worry a bit about them self cleaning and deleting their wallets.
 792 2012-10-17 13:33:57 <gavinandresen> I'd be ok with leaving them as-is-- again, it is a one-time cost that will only affect us early adopters.
 793 2012-10-17 13:34:15 <gavinandresen> if bitcoin continues to grow we will have many more new users than old users.
 794 2012-10-17 13:34:19 <jgarzik> initial merge simply ignoring old data should be fine
 795 2012-10-17 13:34:19 <gmaxwell> (or god knows screwing up bdb for their wallet by deleting them as they're in the same db env)
 796 2012-10-17 13:34:26 <jgarzik> upgrade solution can be worked out in-tree, post-merge
 797 2012-10-17 13:34:36 <sipa> agree
 798 2012-10-17 13:34:40 <gavinandresen> agreed
 799 2012-10-17 13:35:01 <gmaxwell> yea, initial merge doesn't matter. and a out of place loadblock is fine.. and we could potentially _ask_ if they want to delete them.
 800 2012-10-17 13:35:41 ThomasV_afk is now known as ThomasV
 801 2012-10-17 13:35:42 <gmaxwell> "You appear to have old blockchain data. This lets you downgrade. Deleting it will free 4GB space. Delete it?  [Yes] [Screw you] [bug me forever]"
 802 2012-10-17 13:35:56 <sipa> also: i already have most of the code for extracting a coinsdb out of the current blkindex.dat... that could be adapted for a faster upgrade, but i'd rather not to (maybe because that's immediately a nice health check)
 803 2012-10-17 13:36:35 <sipa> ").fixGrammar();
 804 2012-10-17 13:36:43 <gmaxwell> yea... I'd rather not use it, except as a health check.
 805 2012-10-17 13:37:07 <gmaxwell> "don't introduce more safty critical rare code paths when it can be avoided"
 806 2012-10-17 13:37:18 <helo> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/78-percent-of-bitcoin-currency-stashed-under-digital-mattress-study-finds/
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 808 2012-10-17 13:37:43 <sipa> gavinandresen: as far as a test plan goes: see my coinhash and ultraprune_coinhash branches: both calculate a hash of the unpacked UTXO data, one from the current database, one from ultraprune
 809 2012-10-17 13:37:43 <helo> :/
 810 2012-10-17 13:38:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: they must be identical at identical blocks (at least after BIP30)
 811 2012-10-17 13:38:33 <sipa> limited testing, including with a -loadblock full of reorgs, shows that it does
 812 2012-10-17 13:38:46 <epscy> helo not very surprising
 813 2012-10-17 13:38:56 <sipa> helo: and completely flawed analysis
 814 2012-10-17 13:39:08 <helo> yeah, pretty bad
 815 2012-10-17 13:39:11 <sipa> (which doesn't mean it's untrue, by the way)
 816 2012-10-17 13:39:19 <epscy> well some of them will be lost
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 818 2012-10-17 13:39:28 <epscy> but most will be being hoarded i think
 819 2012-10-17 13:39:48 <gavinandresen> "store of value" is one of the primary functions of money...
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 822 2012-10-17 13:40:33 <epscy> bitcoin's long term ability to store wealth is unproven
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 824 2012-10-17 13:40:43 <epscy> well techinically it is proven
 825 2012-10-17 13:40:48 <epscy> but not economically
 826 2012-10-17 13:41:02 <jgarzik> technically it is never proven, and only observable in hindsight ;p
 827 2012-10-17 13:41:30 <epscy> true
 828 2012-10-17 13:41:45 <epscy> economics can get very philosophical sometimes
 829 2012-10-17 13:41:57 <gavinandresen> I made a conscious decision to concentrate on features to support its 'medium of exchange' function, I still wonder if that was a mistake.
 830 2012-10-17 13:42:11 <epscy> gavinandresen: i don't think so
 831 2012-10-17 13:42:56 <sipa> bitcoin needs to have value before it can function as a storage of value; and its value can only come from what it's good at: transfer
 832 2012-10-17 13:42:58 <epscy> bitcoin will only behave like gold long term if it is used fairly widely
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 834 2012-10-17 13:43:26 <gavinandresen> that was my thinking.  But I'm not sure that is actually true.
 835 2012-10-17 13:44:09 <epscy> and while many think the fixed limit is the fundamental property of bitcoin, it's other utility is that it can potentially be a fast, cheap and easy way to move wealth
 836 2012-10-17 13:45:06 <CrazyMF> getwork rollntime, anyone? When making a getwork request to bitcoind, do I need to advertise that I will be rolling time ?
 837 2012-10-17 13:45:49 <gavinandresen> grrrr.... my kvm gitian-building machine has suddenly decided it doesn't want to run VMs....
 838 2012-10-17 13:47:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: if you intend to review code: the first 6 commits just add leveldb (no changes to actual core code), the next 5 add ultraprune's data structures and serialization (no changes to core code), after that follow the actual changes to the core validation, some optimizations, and database changes; finally, switch to leveldb, and new RPCs
 839 2012-10-17 13:48:34 <sipa> i tried to keep the commits very standalone, so they can be reviewed separately
 840 2012-10-17 13:48:47 <sipa> (but there are too many for that, maybe...)
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 842 2012-10-17 13:50:37 <gavinandresen> I printed out a complete pretty-printed diff of main.cpp, I'll start by reviewing all the changes there.
 843 2012-10-17 13:51:31 <sipa> good luck :)
 844 2012-10-17 13:52:44 <jgarzik> just emailed Ars Technica
 845 2012-10-17 13:53:06 * jgarzik bangs his head against this stupid paper
 846 2012-10-17 13:53:20 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I was confusing myself yesterday, the Selgin paper was the one that is an unfinished preprint
 847 2012-10-17 13:53:39 * jgarzik wonders if davout got any response yet
 848 2012-10-17 13:53:54 <davout> jgarzik: none
 849 2012-10-17 13:54:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: since it's a finished paper, we should post a response
 850 2012-10-17 13:54:09 <gavinandresen> probably the first author is a masters student who is doing something else now
 851 2012-10-17 13:54:17 <jgarzik> Could start with my gist, https://gist.github.com/3901921
 852 2012-10-17 13:54:29 <jgarzik> It is confusing... the paper mentions MtGox and hints at web wallets later on
 853 2012-10-17 13:54:37 <jgarzik> But their assumption appears to be flawed
 854 2012-10-17 13:54:41 <jgarzik> regardless
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 856 2012-10-17 13:56:50 <gmaxwell> We should mention in the website section that "while it may not be material for the results of this particular study, web block explorers are not authoritative sources for bitcoin data and have sometimes been known to display wildly false infomation"
 857 2012-10-17 13:56:58 JZavala has joined
 858 2012-10-17 13:57:05 <gmaxwell> (e.g. as why The Next Paper should not do the same thing)
 859 2012-10-17 13:58:23 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: https://gist.github.com/3905598  are my LXC VM's gitian checksums; likely won't match if you're building with kvm
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 861 2012-10-17 13:59:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: thanks, will copy-n-paste that
 862 2012-10-17 14:02:46 * jgarzik posts the gist in the forum thread on the Ron/Shamir paper, trolling for comments and additional ammo
 863 2012-10-17 14:03:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: just noticed there is a small TODO left in SetMerkleBranch; will do that soon
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 866 2012-10-17 14:07:26 <gavinandresen> hmmm... my wimpy kvm machine seems happier if I run gbuild -j 1 .... (it is a single-processor machine)....
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 872 2012-10-17 14:15:49 <amiller> the first author already has a phd and is research staff at the weizmann university
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 880 2012-10-17 14:25:10 <gavinandresen> I wonder if people will look at these pictures in 50 years and think "gee, all that computing power now fits in my pocket" : http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2012/10/where-the-internet-lives-the-first-ever-glimpse-inside-googles-data-centers/
 881 2012-10-17 14:27:37 <D34TH> its almost like they take the entire thing and use the shrink ray and put it in a small case
 882 2012-10-17 14:31:10 <Luke-Jr>     979f645884a7170f25fb3020117ae778ee738eeb4df67fb188c4116252629c83  bitcoin-0.7.1-win32-setup.exe
 883 2012-10-17 14:31:38 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: the other EXEs match too
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 887 2012-10-17 14:39:37 <gavinandresen> LXC and KVM bitcoin-qt linux binaries don't match again:  https://gist.github.com/3905598
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 893 2012-10-17 14:57:28 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: you're listed as a Transifex bitcoin project maintainer... can you easily get a list of people who contributed translations to the 0.7.* release so I can thank them in the release notes?
 894 2012-10-17 14:59:23 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 895 2012-10-17 14:59:25 <Luke-Jr> any idea how?
 896 2012-10-17 15:00:32 <Luke-Jr> I only see "last updated by" usernames :/
 897 2012-10-17 15:02:36 <D34TH> can i change the directory where gitian create its image, my tmp is really size limited
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 901 2012-10-17 15:05:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I emailed them asking if it was possible to get a list
 902 2012-10-17 15:06:33 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: thanks.  I don't know nuthin about Transifex...  ( a list of contributers by date would work, it doesn't have to be exact)
 903 2012-10-17 15:07:27 <gavinandresen> D34TH: it is easy to see what the gitian scripts do by reading their code
 904 2012-10-17 15:08:00 <D34TH> gavinandresen, thanks i was just hoping there was a command line option i could quickly throw in
 905 2012-10-17 15:08:20 <gavinandresen> D34TH: might be.  Or they might pay attention to $TMPDIR ...
 906 2012-10-17 15:09:02 <jgarzik> sigh.  Ars Technica is hedging mightily.  Paraphrasing:  "even if the study is 100% wrong, our article is still correct"
 907 2012-10-17 15:09:11 <jgarzik> (because it says "a study finds..." etc.)
 908 2012-10-17 15:09:24 <jgarzik> technically true, but...
 909 2012-10-17 15:09:36 <Luke-Jr> lol
 910 2012-10-17 15:09:47 <jgarzik> that's like publishing a "sky is green, study finds" article and calling it accurate.
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 912 2012-10-17 15:10:20 <gavinandresen> D34TH: are you running out of space building the VM images?
 913 2012-10-17 15:11:05 <D34TH> yea, i cut down on / because my raid wasnt playing too nice
 914 2012-10-17 15:11:37 <gavinandresen> 'man vmbuilder' , which is what make-base-vm uses, says it pays attention to $TMPDIR
 915 2012-10-17 15:12:30 <gavinandresen> (it also has a --tmp TMPDIR  option, so you could modify bin/make-base-vm to pass that...)
 916 2012-10-17 15:12:42 <D34TH> so for the command its TMPDIR=~/vmtmp LAUNCHCOMMAND
 917 2012-10-17 15:14:24 <gavinandresen> ... or   export TMPDIR=~/vmtmp
 918 2012-10-17 15:14:33 <gavinandresen> ... then run make_base_vm / etc
 919 2012-10-17 15:19:55 <gavinandresen> 0.7.1 binaries uploaded to SourceForge... I just need somebody to gitian-build KVM Linux binaries and I think we're ready to announce.  https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.1/
 920 2012-10-17 15:26:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'll build this evening
 921 2012-10-17 15:27:27 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks!
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 930 2012-10-17 16:09:40 <sipa> gavinandresen: also, if you want to review the changes in main.cpp... have a look at main.h too, since it contains most of the comments and is somewhat more organised
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 934 2012-10-17 16:15:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: will do
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 937 2012-10-17 16:23:11 <jgarzik> helo: Was that you, in the Ars comments section?  That was a very well reasoned, professional reply.  You should be on a Bitcoin PR team :)
 938 2012-10-17 16:25:01 <sipa> jgarzik: link?
 939 2012-10-17 16:25:16 <jgarzik> sipa: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/78-percent-of-bitcoin-currency-stashed-under-digital-mattress-study-finds/
 940 2012-10-17 16:25:25 <jgarzik> sipa: click on comments at the bottom
 941 2012-10-17 16:25:43 * jgarzik has been emailing back and forth with the reporter
 942 2012-10-17 16:27:00 <helo> jgarzik: :D
 943 2012-10-17 16:27:12 <jgarzik> perfectly polite conversation, but I still claim it is a bit lame that he thinks qualifying everything with "the research shows" or "the study finds" absolves Ars of any further need for context
 944 2012-10-17 16:28:18 <epscy> jgarzik: what is wrong with the study?
 945 2012-10-17 16:28:28 <epscy> i only briefly read the article
 946 2012-10-17 16:29:53 <jgarzik> epscy: https://gist.github.com/3901921
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 948 2012-10-17 16:33:56 <helo> so will the next article be titled "Bitcoin developers heavily contest claims in cryptography legend's bitcoin analysis"?
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 951 2012-10-17 16:37:52 <epscy> jgarzik: ok yeah, there description of the blockchain as html files is lolzy
 952 2012-10-17 16:38:11 <jgarzik> helo: dunno.  I'm guessing unlikely ;p
 953 2012-10-17 16:41:33 <Luke-Jr> I wonder how long until someone comes out with a Bitcoin debit card so people can convert simply by spending/withdrawing or depositing at ATMs
 954 2012-10-17 16:43:10 <gavinandresen> are there prepaid cards where you can deposit with cash at an ATM?
 955 2012-10-17 16:43:20 <gavinandresen> (not bitcoin ones, just regular prepaid cards)
 956 2012-10-17 16:44:12 <helo> i think a bank would need to get in the business of selling bitcoin :/
 957 2012-10-17 16:44:20 <Luke-Jr> I'd assumed so… looks like Chase came out with one recently
 958 2012-10-17 16:44:23 <Luke-Jr> http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/prepaid-debit-cards/chase-liquid-prepaid-yeah-gamechanger/
 959 2012-10-17 16:44:53 <Luke-Jr> helo: could just trade on MtGox, I'd think
 960 2012-10-17 16:45:18 <Luke-Jr> IMO it'd be pretty important that the conversion happen on use; ie, the card keeps its balance in Bitcoins
 961 2012-10-17 16:46:17 <gavinandresen> I wonder how much it costs a bank to process a cash-at-the-ATM deposit....
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 969 2012-10-17 16:53:17 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: pynode converted to use function-style print statement
 970 2012-10-17 16:53:50 <amiller> i spent about an hour trying to make gevent build with python3 and didn't get it
 971 2012-10-17 16:53:55 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, almost nothing
 972 2012-10-17 16:54:20 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, the atm keeps the cash you deposit stacked in the order it's put in
 973 2012-10-17 16:54:36 <helo> in an envelope
 974 2012-10-17 16:54:50 <amiller> phantomcircuit, you mean the atm doesn't merge sort?
 975 2012-10-17 16:55:09 <phantomcircuit> amiller, i've heard people suggest they should issue that cash to peopel withdrawaling
 976 2012-10-17 16:55:12 <phantomcircuit> which is ridiculous
 977 2012-10-17 16:55:13 <phantomcircuit> ness
 978 2012-10-17 16:55:37 <phantomcircuit> helo, you dont use envelopes anymore in most of the us
 979 2012-10-17 16:55:56 <helo> in my experience it's always deposited inside an envelope... it isn't even counted until they pull it, open it, etc
 980 2012-10-17 16:56:01 <phantomcircuit> the atm has automated counterfeit detection which works just the same as the automated counterfeit detection they use inside the bank
 981 2012-10-17 16:56:22 <jgarzik> for the providers, the incentives seem tilted towards "just pay cash for another card"
 982 2012-10-17 16:56:28 <phantomcircuit> helo, well atms in san francisco where you can deposit cash dont use envelopes anymore
 983 2012-10-17 16:56:51 <helo> so at my bank, a max of $100 is made available until the next day
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 985 2012-10-17 16:56:53 <jgarzik> I doubt they would want to bother with random cash->card
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1006 2012-10-17 17:46:00 <Matt_von_Mises> Luke-Jr: I'm trying to figure out how to make the 100 blocks in the miner tests and the data I make is this: http://pastebin.com/9UCF0gBN I assumed the miner tests work upon the genesis block.
1007 2012-10-17 17:46:56 <Matt_von_Mises> Oh I just realised I'm trying to make the 3rd block...
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1018 2012-10-17 18:05:14 <Matt_von_Mises> This is it: http://pastebin.com/BDfhiHsd That should be the first block from the miner tests but the hash is bad.
1019 2012-10-17 18:13:19 <Matt_von_Mises> I posted here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118970.0
1020 2012-10-17 18:14:16 <Matt_von_Mises> Is the problem that a zero length script is followed by another zero? I know that was the case elsewhere.
1021 2012-10-17 18:14:37 <Matt_von_Mises> "zero length script is followed by another zero" By that I mean the length of the script is followed by zero.
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1023 2012-10-17 18:17:14 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: what is the problem, exactly?
1024 2012-10-17 18:18:05 <Matt_von_Mises> The hash is not below the target. I'm trying to create the 100 blocks from here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/miner_tests.cpp
1025 2012-10-17 18:18:57 <Matt_von_Mises> I guess I could hack the bitcoin testing code and figure it out myself. Might be difficult getting it to work. Guess I'll try a bit later.
1026 2012-10-17 18:19:43 <sipa> if the header is the same, the hash should be the same
1027 2012-10-17 18:19:49 <sipa> are you sure your block hashing code is correct?
1028 2012-10-17 18:21:01 <Matt_von_Mises> "are you sure your block hashing code is correct?" Works perfectly elsewhere.
1029 2012-10-17 18:21:15 <Matt_von_Mises> What I'llt ry to do is get the miner testing code to print out the data and then I'll compare it.
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1035 2012-10-17 18:28:01 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: that probably means it is correct
1036 2012-10-17 18:30:15 cande has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1037 2012-10-17 18:30:15 <sipa> Matt_von_Mises: in the miner test, do this: CDataStream ss(SER_DISK, CLIENT_VERSION); ss << block; std::vector<unsigned char> vch(ss.begin(), ss.end()); printf("block=%s\n", HexStr(vch).c_str());
1038 2012-10-17 18:30:30 <sipa> that'll print out the block in hex
1039 2012-10-17 18:30:47 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Okay thanks… I will do once I'm able to get it to build.
1040 2012-10-17 18:31:03 <sipa> you never built bitcoind?
1041 2012-10-17 18:31:49 <Matt_von_Mises> Yes but that was on Snow Leopard and I think it's broken now… I'm figuring it out again.
1042 2012-10-17 18:32:26 <sipa> ok
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1049 2012-10-17 18:43:37 <Matt_von_Mises> It is taking a long time to build but it's working...
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1054 2012-10-17 18:57:58 <Matt_von_Mises> sipa: Managed to get the data, thanks. It's -> 010000006fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d61900000000001c1f4783a8d03faca6244ec8ef5b090f63885063f7b764292aba882571b5d4272aab5f49ffff001d23e2a3a40101000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffff020400ffffffff0100f2052a010000000000000000
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1057 2012-10-17 18:58:46 <sipa> and do those 80 first bytes match yours?
1058 2012-10-17 18:59:37 <Matt_von_Mises> No
1059 2012-10-17 18:59:43 <Matt_von_Mises> Merkle root wrong
1060 2012-10-17 18:59:49 <Matt_von_Mises> Still looking...
1061 2012-10-17 19:02:12 <Matt_von_Mises> I see, the input script is only 2 bytes long
1062 2012-10-17 19:02:23 <Matt_von_Mises> I did it 5 bytes
1063 2012-10-17 19:03:06 <sipa> right, minimal encoding lenth for numbers
1064 2012-10-17 19:03:45 <Matt_von_Mises> That seems to be the only problem. I'll try again..
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1067 2012-10-17 19:07:20 <Matt_von_Mises> Perfect! Works nicely now.
1068 2012-10-17 19:07:35 <sipa> nice
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1093 2012-10-17 20:28:17 <sipa> gavin_Amtrain: my 0.7.1 build matches yours/luke's
1094 2012-10-17 20:28:28 <sipa> but wumpus' linux -qt build doesn't
1095 2012-10-17 20:30:36 <gavin_Amtrain> sipa: wumpus built kvm or lxc?
1096 2012-10-17 20:30:51 <sipa> no idea
1097 2012-10-17 20:31:09 <sipa> you didn't do a win32 build?
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1101 2012-10-17 20:42:42 <gavin_Amtrain> sipa: I did, did I forget to commit the sigs?
1102 2012-10-17 20:42:51 <sipa> so it would seem
1103 2012-10-17 20:43:19 <gavin_Amtrain> oops.  Will have to wait until I'm back.
1104 2012-10-17 20:45:00 <gmaxwell> "Malware Is 'Rampant' On Medical Devices In Hospitals" http://www.technologyreview.com/news/429616/computer-viruses-are-rampant-on-medical-devices/   feeling doomed yet?
1105 2012-10-17 20:45:36 <sipa> "I'm sorry, it seems your MBR was infected..."
1106 2012-10-17 20:45:54 <sipa> "Weĺl have to reboot you"
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1110 2012-10-17 20:51:56 <_dr> boring
1111 2012-10-17 20:51:58 <_dr> http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/10/17/0325236/researcher-reverse-engineers-pacemaker-transmitter-to-deliver-deadly-shocks :)
1112 2012-10-17 20:52:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: what, that the average person doesn't understand basic security or that oh...I dont know amazon still hasnt heard of sslstrip?
1113 2012-10-17 20:58:43 cande has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
1114 2012-10-17 21:02:38 <sipa> gavin_Amtrain: anyway, my sigs are uploaded
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1121 2012-10-17 21:43:57 * jgarzik googles for "BFL josh", and gets a bunch of American football links
1122 2012-10-17 21:44:06 * jgarzik kicks google, adds quotes, and tries again
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1124 2012-10-17 21:45:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there is a verbatim search in the left sidebar that replaces the now gone "+"
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1147 2012-10-17 22:52:51 <MC1984> The number 256^2 + 2083 is an illegal prime number because when converted to binary and uncompressed using gzip provides c source code for the DeCSS algorithm that can override a DVDs copy protection in violation of the digital millennium copyright act.
1148 2012-10-17 22:52:54 <MC1984> cool
1149 2012-10-17 22:53:41 <sipa> heh? no way
1150 2012-10-17 22:54:06 <sipa> MC1984: i have a new built of ultraprune, btw
1151 2012-10-17 22:54:22 <MC1984> cool
1152 2012-10-17 22:54:27 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/ultraprune/
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1159 2012-10-17 23:05:44 <MC1984> sipa can you remind me what the blktree, blocks and coins folders are again?
1160 2012-10-17 23:06:02 <sipa> blocks = the former blk000?.dat files, and undo data
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1162 2012-10-17 23:06:47 <sipa> blktree = leveldb index with information about the block tree (index and metadata for the blocks/ directory), but nothing about the currently active best chain
1163 2012-10-17 23:07:12 <sipa> coins = leveldb database that holds the set of currently unspent transaction outputs
1164 2012-10-17 23:07:53 <sipa> there were probably some database changes since you last used it, so better start from a clean datadir
1165 2012-10-17 23:07:59 <MC1984> ah so this does have leveldb in it
1166 2012-10-17 23:08:11 <sipa> yes, bdb is only used for the wallet anymore
1167 2012-10-17 23:08:21 <MC1984> yeah i got error loading index
1168 2012-10-17 23:08:36 <MC1984> oh well, start from scratch
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1170 2012-10-17 23:08:57 <sipa> you can use bootstrap.dat
1171 2012-10-17 23:10:07 <MC1984> mite b cool
1172 2012-10-17 23:10:12 <MC1984> whats the magnet?
1173 2012-10-17 23:11:57 <jgarzik> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0bb0521942f586ed96203c6f4d136324756f8a9a&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80&tr=udp://tracker.istole.it:80
1174 2012-10-17 23:12:00 <sipa> see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117982.0
1175 2012-10-17 23:12:23 <MC1984> oh you added trackers
1176 2012-10-17 23:12:30 <jgarzik> MC1984: someone else did
1177 2012-10-17 23:12:39 <jgarzik> MC1984: if you're using transmission, there's no need
1178 2012-10-17 23:12:51 <MC1984> utorrent
1179 2012-10-17 23:13:04 <jgarzik> utorrent should DHT fine, too.  got several success reports.
1180 2012-10-17 23:13:39 <MC1984> yep its never not worked
1181 2012-10-17 23:13:48 <MC1984> dont even bother port forwarding anymore
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1189 2012-10-17 23:20:40 <MC1984> https://btdigg.org/search?q=bootstrap&p=0&order=2
1190 2012-10-17 23:21:14 <sipa> 2.32 GB only?
1191 2012-10-17 23:22:04 <MC1984> ye
1192 2012-10-17 23:23:21 <sipa> MC1984: what you can also do it take the formet blk000?.dat files, cat them together, and use that as bootstrap.dat
1193 2012-10-17 23:24:14 <MC1984> cat?
1194 2012-10-17 23:24:18 <sipa> concatenate
1195 2012-10-17 23:24:28 <sipa> like the unix tool 'cat' does
1196 2012-10-17 23:24:56 <MC1984> unix is alien to me
1197 2012-10-17 23:24:57 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1198 2012-10-17 23:25:36 <sipa> no idea how to do that in windows; i suppose you could try opening both in an editor, and copy-paste the second one at the end of the first :D
1199 2012-10-17 23:26:06 <sipa> (note: not a serious suggestion - i don't think notepad & co can handle multi-gigabyte files)
1200 2012-10-17 23:26:06 <MC1984> 1gb file open in notepad
1201 2012-10-17 23:26:09 <MC1984> ill pass
1202 2012-10-17 23:26:40 <rdponticelli> And windows is alien to simple stuff
1203 2012-10-17 23:26:43 <rdponticelli> :S
1204 2012-10-17 23:26:49 <sipa> you can also use -loadblock=/path/to/old/blk0001.dat -loadblock=/path/to/old/blk0002.dat
1205 2012-10-17 23:26:55 copumpkin is now known as BinderFullOfWome
1206 2012-10-17 23:27:04 <MC1984> you can copy /b file1 + file 2 output in windows i believe and it will glue them together
1207 2012-10-17 23:27:18 BinderFullOfWome is now known as BinderOfWomen
1208 2012-10-17 23:27:22 <MC1984> i used to glue SVCD films into one file like that
1209 2012-10-17 23:27:23 BinderOfWomen is now known as copumpkin
1210 2012-10-17 23:27:30 <rdponticelli> MC1984: Don't you have cygwin installed at least?
1211 2012-10-17 23:27:44 <rdponticelli> You could use cat, if you have it
1212 2012-10-17 23:27:47 <MC1984> nope
1213 2012-10-17 23:27:56 copumpkin is now known as BinderOfBigBird
1214 2012-10-17 23:28:28 <MC1984> i only use console when i need to, not because im a neckbeard
1215 2012-10-17 23:28:42 <rdponticelli> Well, if it worked for a SVCD, it should work for this...
1216 2012-10-17 23:28:57 <sipa> i typically have two programs open: a terminal with several tabs, and a browser :)
1217 2012-10-17 23:29:04 <MC1984> i dont even have blk files anymore
1218 2012-10-17 23:29:11 <MC1984> thats so mid 2012
1219 2012-10-17 23:29:15 <sipa> haha, all this discussion for nothing!
1220 2012-10-17 23:29:32 <rdponticelli> lol
1221 2012-10-17 23:29:41 <MC1984> welcome to -dev
1222 2012-10-17 23:30:02 <sipa>  >>/dev/sleep
1223 2012-10-17 23:31:34 <lianj> sipa: tabs? tmux windows!
1224 2012-10-17 23:31:58 <sipa> lianj: i use xmonad, but have most of the time everything full screen anyway
1225 2012-10-17 23:32:18 <sipa> some shells run screen though :)
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1231 2012-10-17 23:46:35 <MC1984> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cummingtonite
1232 2012-10-17 23:47:03 <MC1984> its a real mineral
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1234 2012-10-17 23:51:12 <jgarzik> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jgarzik jgarzik 3511972446 Oct 17 19:36 blocks.dat
1235 2012-10-17 23:51:23 <jgarzik> One Big File sure makes life easier
1236 2012-10-17 23:51:48 <jgarzik> let's see if anyone complains, when pynode's blocks.dat exceeds 4G
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