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  16 2012-10-18 00:49:47 <MC1984> i thought bootstrap.dat was supposed to work if you just dump it in the datadir
  17 2012-10-18 00:50:54 <MC1984> how can i tell its using the file and not the network
  18 2012-10-18 00:52:07 <rdponticelli> MC1984: I think that you have to load it with -loadblock
  19 2012-10-18 00:53:17 <MC1984> im sure i read you dont have to do that
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  21 2012-10-18 00:55:21 <MC1984> ok no way to tell if its even using this damn file
  22 2012-10-18 00:55:57 <tcatm> MC1984: 0.7.1 will load it automatically, for 0.7.0 -loadblock is needed
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  24 2012-10-18 00:57:19 <MC1984> would be nice if it said loadin from file or something
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  38 2012-10-18 01:35:29 <jgarzik> MC1984: $datadir/debug.log indicates that it is processing blocks
  39 2012-10-18 01:42:30 <MC1984> doesnt look like it was using the bootstrap file
  40 2012-10-18 01:43:17 <MC1984> either 7.1 has a bug or sipas build of 7.1 has a bug or the process fails when the datadir is not in its default location as in my case
  41 2012-10-18 01:47:31 <MC1984> well debug.log has things like connecting to x.x.x.x
  42 2012-10-18 01:47:42 <MC1984> and then the processblock accepted stuff starts
  43 2012-10-18 01:47:47 <MC1984> no mention of bootstrap.dat
  44 2012-10-18 01:47:57 <MC1984> so i assume its using the network
  45 2012-10-18 01:57:12 <MC1984> bootstrap.dat is also not locked by bitcoin-qt.exe, so i dont know if thats further proof
  46 2012-10-18 02:06:05 MC1984 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  47 2012-10-18 02:08:23 <maaku> anyone know why a coinbase must be at least two bytes?
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  49 2012-10-18 02:16:12 <Luke-Jr> maaku: "push N bytes" opcode + at least 1 byte for height
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  51 2012-10-18 02:24:52 <forrestv> Luke-Jr, aren't you just retroactively making up that reason? that's only required by BIP 0034
  52 2012-10-18 02:25:37 <Luke-Jr> forrestv: so? :p
  53 2012-10-18 02:25:56 <Luke-Jr> the old 2 byte minimum is irrelevant/ignorable with BIP 34
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  55 2012-10-18 02:29:13 <vazakl> http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf    Quantitative Analysis of the Full Bitcoin Transaction Graph
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  58 2012-10-18 02:36:03 <vazakl> the co-inventor of RSA is an author on that paper
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  60 2012-10-18 02:39:36 <maaku> i'm curious about the historical reason, Luke-Jr
  61 2012-10-18 02:41:28 <Luke-Jr> vazakl: https://gist.github.com/3901921
  62 2012-10-18 02:42:01 <Luke-Jr> maaku: oh ok, let me go dig Satoshi out of his cave
  63 2012-10-18 02:43:31 <robbak> On another matter: gmaxwel and I found a glitch that is showing up when using testnet. When the client connects to a testnet1 peer, it adds the blockchain length to cPeerBlockCounts.
  64 2012-10-18 02:43:51 <Luke-Jr> … long known?
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  66 2012-10-18 02:44:29 <robbak> Well, I don't know if others know about it, neither of us did.
  67 2012-10-18 02:45:01 <Luke-Jr> hmm, if gmaxwell didn't know about it, it must be something else
  68 2012-10-18 02:45:20 <robbak> If several old testnet peers are queried, the predicted length jumps.
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  73 2012-10-18 02:52:24 <robbak> (I think I should have said testnet2, as we are on testnet3 now, aren't we).. It shows up as the client occasionally showing that it is behind by some 14k blocks.
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  75 2012-10-18 02:52:49 <Luke-Jr> robbak: pretty sure that's well-known - and quite handy for testing <.<
  76 2012-10-18 02:54:50 <robbak> Yes. however, could it be leveraged as a DOS-type attack? many peers advertising invalid blockchain lengths, preventing a client from working?
  77 2012-10-18 02:55:10 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't prevent clients from working, just makes the download progress bar appear
  78 2012-10-18 02:55:51 <Luke-Jr> unless I'm failing to understand your description of some truly new bug
  79 2012-10-18 02:55:56 <Luke-Jr> new-discovered*
  80 2012-10-18 02:56:15 <robbak> OK. That's fine, then. No, your descriptions sound right.
  81 2012-10-18 02:57:43 <robbak> If it's known and not a problem, it's all good.
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  87 2012-10-18 03:02:35 <robbak> I'm just building 0.7.1, preparing for the upcommong release. Apart from doing a few transactions on testnet, and building and running test_bitcoin, is there anything I should be doing to make sure my build is good?
  88 2012-10-18 03:02:35 xisalty has joined
  89 2012-10-18 03:02:47 <robbak> (I am building for FreeBSD
  90 2012-10-18 03:03:55 <Luke-Jr> not Mac?
  91 2012-10-18 03:04:18 <Luke-Jr> (0.7.1 release is already past, btw)
  92 2012-10-18 03:04:27 <robbak> No, Standard FreeBSD, version 9.
  93 2012-10-18 03:05:23 <robbak> Ah. I was waiting for it to appear on bitcoin.org.
  94 2012-10-18 03:05:50 <robbak> I saw it had been tagged in git, and saw the discussion here last night.
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  99 2012-10-18 03:14:08 <robbak> Well, I managed to get some errors from test_bitcoin -- but only because my pwd no longer existed! All fine when I cd to somewhere valid.
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 132 2012-10-18 05:08:10 <an3k> hi everybody. anyone familiar with iOS developing?
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 138 2012-10-18 05:30:49 <wumpus>  sipa: old school kvm, still
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 153 2012-10-18 06:46:52 <sipa> wumpus: strange, mine is also in kvm
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 159 2012-10-18 07:06:27 <maaku> are zero-value outputs allowed?
 160 2012-10-18 07:07:13 <jgarzik> maaku: newer versions do not relay zero-value outputs
 161 2012-10-18 07:07:27 <jgarzik> maaku: but if they appear in the blockchain, they will be validated.
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 163 2012-10-18 07:10:35 <maaku> ok thx
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 205 2012-10-18 08:54:44 <davout> ohai
 206 2012-10-18 08:55:06 <davout> if anyone cares i've got a response on my email to dorit ron and adi shamir
 207 2012-10-18 08:55:24 <davout> posted it here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118947.40
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 209 2012-10-18 09:00:26 <sipa> eh, where?
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 213 2012-10-18 09:00:53 <sipa> that thread seems to be about mtgox and aml
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 221 2012-10-18 09:08:19 <jeremias> davout: wrong link?
 222 2012-10-18 09:09:12 <davout> jeremias: yes
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 225 2012-10-18 09:09:48 <davout> jeremias: here you go https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118797.msg1280496#msg1280496
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 349 2012-10-18 13:33:32 <bladezor> Hello, it seems like Bitcoin isn't letting me send a transaction without a transaction fee
 350 2012-10-18 13:34:02 <jeremias> forge transaction by hand, then?
 351 2012-10-18 13:34:15 <jeremias> that is pretty easy with brainwallet.org
 352 2012-10-18 13:34:17 Guest83963 has joined
 353 2012-10-18 13:34:23 <jeremias> but in general, the fees are there to protect you
 354 2012-10-18 13:34:44 <bladezor> lol
 355 2012-10-18 13:34:48 <jeremias> if you create transaction without fees, it might be not included in the block chain
 356 2012-10-18 13:34:53 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 357 2012-10-18 13:34:58 <jeremias> not protect, but to help
 358 2012-10-18 13:35:11 <bladezor> Well, the reason I mention
 359 2012-10-18 13:36:29 <bladezor> Is because I'd like to send BC I have in a few accounts back to my main addy
 360 2012-10-18 13:37:21 graingert_ecs has left ()
 361 2012-10-18 13:37:46 <jeremias> so?
 362 2012-10-18 13:38:01 <bladezor> Does that mean the coins go limbo?
 363 2012-10-18 13:38:08 <jeremias> nope
 364 2012-10-18 13:38:09 <bladezor> Or the changes don't propegate
 365 2012-10-18 13:38:41 <jeremias> I would just accept the fees
 366 2012-10-18 13:38:53 <jeremias> the fees are pretty sane with the main client
 367 2012-10-18 13:39:11 <jeremias> if you want to save those, you have to research it yourself how to construct transaction
 368 2012-10-18 13:39:17 <gmaxwell> 06:26 < bladezor> Does that mean the coins go limbo?
 369 2012-10-18 13:39:20 <gmaxwell> Yes, kinda.
 370 2012-10-18 13:39:48 <gmaxwell> If the transaction won't relay then the it will be stuck and the inputs will be unspendable in your wallet.
 371 2012-10-18 13:40:19 <gmaxwell> This is recoverable, but it requires restoring your wallet from a backup or effectively hex editing it to remove the stuck transactiooon.
 372 2012-10-18 13:40:29 <bladezor> ah
 373 2012-10-18 13:40:50 <jeremias> in the main client yep, but you can always construct the transaction outside main client also
 374 2012-10-18 13:40:56 <gmaxwell> It's sort of a pointless excercise: the only time it's worth doing is when the transaction would soon become elegable to relay as a free txn.
 375 2012-10-18 13:40:57 <jeremias> export the private key etc
 376 2012-10-18 13:41:00 <Luke-Jr> bladezor: part of your confusion may lie in the fact that there aren't accounts in the first place
 377 2012-10-18 13:41:00 <jeremias> but not advisable
 378 2012-10-18 13:41:23 <Luke-Jr> jeremias: you don't even need to export the priv key
 379 2012-10-18 13:41:23 <gmaxwell> and in that case you might as well wait.
 380 2012-10-18 13:42:32 <root2> I just sent a feeless transaction with 0.7.0-beta
 381 2012-10-18 13:42:37 <bladezor> Okay
 382 2012-10-18 13:42:38 <bladezor> Does EVERY transaction have a fee?
 383 2012-10-18 13:42:39 <root2> is that not supposed to be allowed?
 384 2012-10-18 13:42:40 <bladezor> Or rather
 385 2012-10-18 13:42:56 <root2> it has 4 confirmations
 386 2012-10-18 13:43:02 <Luke-Jr> bladezor: miners are currently pretty generous about letting many transactions in without a fee right now
 387 2012-10-18 13:43:08 <gmaxwell> root2: ... No, of course it is; the overwhelming majority of (non dice) transactions are feeless.
 388 2012-10-18 13:43:17 <bladezor> Is there a lower limit to the amount before fees are added?
 389 2012-10-18 13:43:29 <gmaxwell> bladezor: opposite in a way.
 390 2012-10-18 13:43:39 <gmaxwell> bladezor: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
 391 2012-10-18 13:44:06 <gmaxwell> Any transaction with an output smaller than 0.01 btc is required to pay a fee.
 392 2012-10-18 13:44:39 <bladezor> gmaxwell: I've never had an option every transaction I've done has been hit with a fee
 393 2012-10-18 13:44:43 <bladezor> That's why I'm asking
 394 2012-10-18 13:44:57 <gmaxwell> Any transaction that rapidly reuses coins recently recieved relative to its size is required.. (In these caases these requires are soft rules imposed by common behavior)
 395 2012-10-18 13:45:58 <gmaxwell> The reasons this behavior exists is to prevent DOS attacks; without them anyone who can write a while loop could make bitcoin unusable.
 396 2012-10-18 13:46:35 <bladezor> I see
 397 2012-10-18 13:47:32 <gmaxwell> The idea is to objectively distinguish DOS attackers by reconizing high volume behavior are requiring small fees from it. Small fees add up and discourage the attacks by taking away the coins that make the attacker able to transact.
 398 2012-10-18 13:48:09 <gmaxwell> bladezor: if you're always getting them its because you're either sending tiny amounts or rapidly turning around coins you just recieved.
 399 2012-10-18 13:48:33 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 400 2012-10-18 13:48:44 <gmaxwell> Letting coins sit around in your wallet helps.  Also getting paid in larger increments helps because it results in you creating smaller data-sized transactioons.
 401 2012-10-18 13:48:58 <bladezor> gmaxwell: ahh, I see
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 411 2012-10-18 14:10:02 <Titanium> is this a limit of the client in creating a transaction, or is it a limit where the client will consoder a block invalid if it does not meet this fee requirement?
 412 2012-10-18 14:10:39 <Luke-Jr> neither
 413 2012-10-18 14:10:43 <Titanium> also it doesnt help that much with ddos if you mine the block yourself
 414 2012-10-18 14:11:09 <gmaxwell> Titanium: um. Yes, it does.
 415 2012-10-18 14:11:15 <Titanium> how?
 416 2012-10-18 14:11:26 <Titanium> if you mine the block yourself... you get the fees
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 418 2012-10-18 14:11:55 <gmaxwell> Titanium: because mining a block requires about $500 worth of computation, so your abilit to produce blocks is finite.
 419 2012-10-18 14:11:56 Faraday__ is now known as Faraday
 420 2012-10-18 14:12:11 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: accepting transactions in blocks costs quite a bit right now, unfortunately
 421 2012-10-18 14:12:22 <gmaxwell> (and if you have so much investe in bitcoin that you can produce lots of blocks presumably you're better off mining it than attacking it)
 422 2012-10-18 14:12:23 <Luke-Jr> plus what gmaxwell said for the future
 423 2012-10-18 14:12:30 <Titanium> i made one the other day with .0000000001 fee for 1 btc sent
 424 2012-10-18 14:12:34 Hasimir_ has joined
 425 2012-10-18 14:12:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: any chance you could look over the solo mining code for libblkmaker?
 426 2012-10-18 14:12:58 <gmaxwell> fees below 0.0001 BTC are treated as zero anyways.
 427 2012-10-18 14:13:02 <Titanium> so where is the source of this limit
 428 2012-10-18 14:13:08 <gmaxwell> Titanium: _most_ transactions pay no fees at all.
 429 2012-10-18 14:13:14 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: miners enforce it
 430 2012-10-18 14:13:25 <gmaxwell> Titanium: the source of the limit is that regular nodes and miners enforce it.
 431 2012-10-18 14:13:35 <Titanium> and they will reject the block if it doesnt have the correct fee?
 432 2012-10-18 14:13:42 <Luke-Jr> nobody rejects blocks due to fees
 433 2012-10-18 14:13:45 <Titanium> or they just wotn include it?
 434 2012-10-18 14:13:51 <Titanium> and it will take a while
 435 2012-10-18 14:13:52 <Luke-Jr> miners just don't include transactions in their blocks if they look like spam
 436 2012-10-18 14:13:56 <gmaxwell> They will not relay transactions that don't meet the rules, and they will not mine them.
 437 2012-10-18 14:14:09 <Titanium> they wotn relay them?>
 438 2012-10-18 14:14:15 <Titanium> how do I connect to pools directly?
 439 2012-10-18 14:14:21 <gmaxwell> Titanium: no, because they don't get relayed they wont ever go through unless they age enough to pass as free.
 440 2012-10-18 14:14:24 <Titanium> i want to make sure my transactions work
 441 2012-10-18 14:14:26 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
 442 2012-10-18 14:14:42 <Titanium> that 8 conections limit is a bitch
 443 2012-10-18 14:14:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: thats not helpful. It's not like you take free transactions that otherwise should have a fee.
 444 2012-10-18 14:14:49 <Titanium> is there an alternative client?
 445 2012-10-18 14:15:00 <gmaxwell> wtf. 8 connections isn't a problem.
 446 2012-10-18 14:15:02 <sturles> Titanium: What 8 connection limit?
 447 2012-10-18 14:15:02 <gmaxwell> You're crazy.
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 449 2012-10-18 14:15:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it's helpful for getting transactions relayed despite relay limits
 450 2012-10-18 14:15:22 <Titanium> ifyou only connect to a few nodes, and most dont accept 'spam' transactions...
 451 2012-10-18 14:15:29 <gmaxwell> Titanium: pratically no nodes will relay DOS-like transactions, including most pools nodes themselves.
 452 2012-10-18 14:15:38 Faraday is now known as Faraday32
 453 2012-10-18 14:15:39 Hasimir_ is now known as Hasimir
 454 2012-10-18 14:15:41 <Titanium> connecting to more nodes increases the speed to get your tx included
 455 2012-10-18 14:15:48 <gmaxwell> Titanium: No, it doesn't.
 456 2012-10-18 14:16:00 <Titanium> there are some pool that include any tx
 457 2012-10-18 14:16:02 <Luke-Jr> not significantly
 458 2012-10-18 14:16:05 <Titanium> i want to get my tx to them
 459 2012-10-18 14:16:07 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: like what?
 460 2012-10-18 14:16:10 <Titanium> not sure
 461 2012-10-18 14:16:18 <Titanium> i think elgiuous takes 'any' tx fee
 462 2012-10-18 14:16:21 <gmaxwell> Titanium: since pratically no nodes will accept them your chances would be small even if you were connecting to a thousand nodes.
 463 2012-10-18 14:16:21 <Luke-Jr> no
 464 2012-10-18 14:16:22 <sturles> I got trouble with more than ~1000 incoming connection just after a restart, but I haven't seen that since version 0.4 or something.
 465 2012-10-18 14:16:28 <Luke-Jr> Eligius takes any transaction *provided it has a fee*
 466 2012-10-18 14:16:38 <Titanium> a few of .000001
 467 2012-10-18 14:16:39 <gmaxwell> And connecting to a thousand nodes would slow you down massively and waste a ton of network resources.
 468 2012-10-18 14:16:54 <sturles> Yep.
 469 2012-10-18 14:16:54 <Titanium> i have servers
 470 2012-10-18 14:16:59 <Titanium> im not worried
 471 2012-10-18 14:17:05 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: it's not because of bandwidth
 472 2012-10-18 14:17:12 <Titanium> and my router can setup nat translations real fast
 473 2012-10-18 14:17:13 <Luke-Jr> it's because the p2p networking code Satoshi wrote sucks
 474 2012-10-18 14:17:17 <sturles> I can sign that.  1000 connections will kill the performance of your client.
 475 2012-10-18 14:17:19 <gmaxwell> Titanium: you're not worred about wasting a ton of the bitcoin's network's resources?
 476 2012-10-18 14:17:23 robbak has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 477 2012-10-18 14:17:29 <Titanium> im not
 478 2012-10-18 14:17:34 <Titanium> cause others only connect to 8
 479 2012-10-18 14:17:39 <Luke-Jr> …
 480 2012-10-18 14:17:41 <Titanium> so its not a big deal overall
 481 2012-10-18 14:17:53 <Titanium> i woudl end up only connecting to custom clients
 482 2012-10-18 14:17:55 <gmaxwell> sturles: you shouldn't run 1000 or greater you'll run out of FD's and corrupt your database unless you upped the ulimits. The select base code will also break.
 483 2012-10-18 14:17:57 <sturles> Titanium: Not worried about killing the performance of your bitcvoin client either?
 484 2012-10-18 14:18:10 <Titanium> is there a 3rd party client?
 485 2012-10-18 14:18:27 <gmaxwell> Titanium: You need to get your ineffective antisocial behavior under control.
 486 2012-10-18 14:18:43 <Titanium> i just want to send my 1 bitcoin to another dude that happens to have 8 sources
 487 2012-10-18 14:18:46 <Titanium> and not pay fees
 488 2012-10-18 14:18:50 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: there are multiple clients, but only bitcoind and Bitcoin-Qt are fully verifying so far
 489 2012-10-18 14:18:53 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 490 2012-10-18 14:18:56 <sturles> gmaxwell: Yep, but some old version didn't throttle.  At least not early enough.  It happened every time I tried to restart the client, buit I haven't seen it in newer versions.
 491 2012-10-18 14:19:07 <gmaxwell> Titanium: connecting to more nodes will not benefit you materially. It will not enable you to violate the anti-dos attack fee rules.
 492 2012-10-18 14:19:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, you corrupt stuff only IF you up the ulimits
 493 2012-10-18 14:19:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if you don't up the ulimit, you simply CAN'T connect to more than ~1000
 494 2012-10-18 14:19:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well you'll corrupt the databases if you run out of file descriptors.
 495 2012-10-18 14:19:35 <Titanium> 1000 is probably enough
 496 2012-10-18 14:19:40 <Titanium> per node
 497 2012-10-18 14:19:44 vampireb has joined
 498 2012-10-18 14:19:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: oh, seriously?
 499 2012-10-18 14:19:51 <gmaxwell> Titanium: no, jesus, it's not.
 500 2012-10-18 14:20:03 <Titanium> hwo many nodes are there, and how many nodes at 1000 each can I run?
 501 2012-10-18 14:20:04 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, bdb does open/close on the fly and if it can't open a new log things get bad.
 502 2012-10-18 14:20:08 <Luke-Jr> ugh
 503 2012-10-18 14:20:31 <Titanium> also i assume any node with 8 connections will politely refuse my connection
 504 2012-10-18 14:20:31 <gmaxwell> Titanium: trying lots doesn't do you any good, Thats like saying if you kiss a lot of frogs one may become a princess.
 505 2012-10-18 14:20:37 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: false
 506 2012-10-18 14:21:00 <gmaxwell> Nodes have 125 inbound connections by default.
 507 2012-10-18 14:21:13 <Titanium> thanks!
 508 2012-10-18 14:21:24 <Titanium> then my idea wotn work :(
 509 2012-10-18 14:21:34 <Titanium> il need a lot of nodes each at 1000 connections
 510 2012-10-18 14:21:55 <gmaxwell> Titanium: I don't know why you won't listen to the developers of the software. Your idea won't work because nodes that will relay or mine with no fees when the txn looks like a dos attack basically don't exist.
 511 2012-10-18 14:21:58 <Titanium> i only have like 20 ip addresses, are there more than 20k nodes?
 512 2012-10-18 14:22:11 <gmaxwell> If they existed bitcoin would be over.
 513 2012-10-18 14:22:19 <Titanium> i want to connect directly to the guy that will actually include my tx
 514 2012-10-18 14:22:32 <gmaxwell> Because some shithead who didn't care about how antisocial his actions were would perform the aformentioned dos attack and tada.
 515 2012-10-18 14:22:34 <Titanium> to get around the normal clients that dotn relay
 516 2012-10-18 14:22:48 <gmaxwell> Titanium: what guy? there is no such guy.
 517 2012-10-18 14:22:58 <Titanium> theres probably at least one
 518 2012-10-18 14:23:25 <gmaxwell> Luke is one of the very few pool operators that have non standard fee rules and he wouldn't accept a transaction without a fee except for someone he has a business relationship with.
 519 2012-10-18 14:23:28 Faraday32 is now known as faraday
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 522 2012-10-18 14:24:00 <Titanium> imnot tryign to do a DOS attack (I have a way to do it anyways)
 523 2012-10-18 14:24:06 <Titanium> i just want to send bitcoins for free
 524 2012-10-18 14:24:19 <gmaxwell> Titanium: you realize you've wasted far more than a half cent of your own and my time talking about this, right?
 525 2012-10-18 14:24:24 <Titanium> i woudl liek to actually use bitcoins for micro tx
 526 2012-10-18 14:24:35 <Titanium> but its bitcoin which is a hobby
 527 2012-10-18 14:24:40 <Titanium> so I dont value my time at all
 528 2012-10-18 14:24:54 <gmaxwell> Titanium: or anyone elses time or resources aparently
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 530 2012-10-18 14:24:57 <gmaxwell> ::ploink::
 531 2012-10-18 14:25:08 <Titanium> the time I have spent keeping my miners running woudl amke me more money at work
 532 2012-10-18 14:25:19 * Luke-Jr pokes gmaxwell
 533 2012-10-18 14:25:46 <Titanium> i want to be able to send a small fraction of a US penny to someone for free
 534 2012-10-18 14:25:54 <Titanium> or a small percent fee like .1%
 535 2012-10-18 14:25:54 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: Bitcoin isn't designed for that, kthx bai
 536 2012-10-18 14:26:13 <Titanium> i thought bitcoin was for micro tx where paypal is evil
 537 2012-10-18 14:26:35 <Titanium> guess I was wrong about it
 538 2012-10-18 14:26:53 <Luke-Jr> i thought bitcoin was for tonal and base 8*2
 539 2012-10-18 14:27:21 <Titanium> keep workign at it and it could be
 540 2012-10-18 14:27:26 <gmaxwell> Titanium: paypal is evil even at the $1 level. (or really at any price)
 541 2012-10-18 14:27:35 kreal has joined
 542 2012-10-18 14:28:24 <Titanium> for example, the ability to generate $.0001 of bitcoin and send to the recipient to verify that your email was worth reading
 543 2012-10-18 14:28:25 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is a global broadcast medium. It is not sensible to pay someone femtocoins every time you decide you like their shoes. People have widly different definitions of micropayments.
 544 2012-10-18 14:28:45 <helo> Titanium: that's kind of like encouraging ford to keep working at making sedans, thinking that soon they'll release one that flies
 545 2012-10-18 14:28:49 <Titanium> ya some think micropayments are $1-$10
 546 2012-10-18 14:29:03 <Titanium> i think of fractions of a penny
 547 2012-10-18 14:29:31 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is reasonable for the jumbomicropayments, not the micromicro ones... though you could create _other_ systems which are _backed_ and demnominated in bitcoin which are sutiable for really tiny payments.
 548 2012-10-18 14:29:41 <Titanium> amounts so small that for one person they just dont care
 549 2012-10-18 14:29:46 <helo> ford isn't going to make a flying car because it doesn't make sense. it's the same for microtransactions and bitcoin.
 550 2012-10-18 14:29:53 <gmaxwell> I wish witcoin still existed because it was a nice example of that.
 551 2012-10-18 14:30:04 <Titanium> flying cars will be here someday, hopefully before I die
 552 2012-10-18 14:30:25 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 553 2012-10-18 14:30:26 <Titanium> but it will probably be personal aircraft, not cars
 554 2012-10-18 14:30:27 <gmaxwell> (You can still use bitcoin the currency without using bitcoin the transaction system)
 555 2012-10-18 14:30:32 CodesInChaos has joined
 556 2012-10-18 14:30:46 <Titanium> but bitcoin provides a good trust infastructure
 557 2012-10-18 14:30:51 <Luke-Jr> hmm, more Bitcoins to differentiate between
 558 2012-10-18 14:31:07 <Luke-Jr> Titanium: you don't need trust for tips
 559 2012-10-18 14:31:22 <Titanium> im thinking more along the lines of pay per page view for no adds
 560 2012-10-18 14:31:30 <Titanium> or pay to send email to show you arent sending millions
 561 2012-10-18 14:31:44 <gmaxwell> You need a _different_ kind of trust for that than bitcoin provides.
 562 2012-10-18 14:32:36 <gmaxwell> You need a small amount of specialized trust that scales well. Bitcoin provides an enourmous amount of generalized trust that doesn't scale to indivigually worthless transactions, and can't scale to worthless transactions.
 563 2012-10-18 14:32:36 <Titanium> i woudl just need to make my own pool to make it work
 564 2012-10-18 14:32:50 <Titanium> and accept any tx
 565 2012-10-18 14:32:56 <gmaxwell> Titanium: that doesn't work either.
 566 2012-10-18 14:33:04 <Titanium> why not?
 567 2012-10-18 14:33:12 <gmaxwell> If bitcoin let you make ~worthless transactions without bound then bitcoin would be over because someone would flood it for fun.
 568 2012-10-18 14:33:29 <Titanium> you have new clients to address that
 569 2012-10-18 14:33:45 <gmaxwell> Titanium: because (1) no one would use it because people don't want bitcoin to become worthless, (2) because you can still only make a small number of blocks
 570 2012-10-18 14:33:48 <Titanium> and the big clients should be able to handle continuous 2 MB blocks
 571 2012-10-18 14:34:06 <Titanium> and just scale the fees
 572 2012-10-18 14:34:27 <gmaxwell> Titanium: um. The protocol rules limit blocks to 1MB. Changing that is technically similar to making the supply of bitcoin be 42 million instead.
 573 2012-10-18 14:34:37 <Titanium> i think lots of people woudl use my pool if it was a PPS 101% payout
 574 2012-10-18 14:34:48 <Titanium> ahh, I though tit was 2 MBB
 575 2012-10-18 14:34:53 <Titanium> lol
 576 2012-10-18 14:35:06 <gmaxwell> And making large block is buring our startup capital.
 577 2012-10-18 14:35:11 <gmaxwell> er burning*
 578 2012-10-18 14:35:19 <Titanium> i dont understand
 579 2012-10-18 14:35:41 <Luke-Jr> ^
 580 2012-10-18 14:35:53 <Titanium> real clients when you make them, will store the chain in an efficient manner
 581 2012-10-18 14:36:03 <Titanium> and the thin ones will not store it all
 582 2012-10-18 14:36:04 <gmaxwell> ...
 583 2012-10-18 14:36:22 <gmaxwell> Titanium: We _do_ store the chain in an efficient manner now.
 584 2012-10-18 14:36:26 <Titanium> so lots of data int he block chain should only impact hard disk size and iops
 585 2012-10-18 14:36:40 <Titanium> a few io operations to disk per tx you want to verify
 586 2012-10-18 14:36:55 <gmaxwell> And thin clients degrade security for themselves and for the system as a whole so while they are useful they are not a magical solution.
 587 2012-10-18 14:37:18 <Titanium> they are useful as long as the pools dont use thin clients
 588 2012-10-18 14:37:20 <gmaxwell> Titanium: And the time to start a new nodes, and the amount of banwidth neede to start a new node.
 589 2012-10-18 14:37:26 <gmaxwell> No. thats incorrect.
 590 2012-10-18 14:37:50 <Titanium> block chain should be downloadeable by ftp
 591 2012-10-18 14:37:53 <gmaxwell> If only pools are validating then, again, bitcoin is over. Because pools would obviously just mine themselves 1000 BTC per block and no one would be the wiser.
 592 2012-10-18 14:38:15 <Titanium> good point
 593 2012-10-18 14:38:21 <Titanium> that actually sounds hard to workarround
 594 2012-10-18 14:38:30 <Titanium> you need a whole new type of trust
 595 2012-10-18 14:38:38 <Luke-Jr> …
 596 2012-10-18 14:38:43 <Luke-Jr> FTP should be banned from the internets
 597 2012-10-18 14:38:50 <Titanium> scp
 598 2012-10-18 14:38:53 <Titanium> sftp
 599 2012-10-18 14:39:03 <Titanium> actually
 600 2012-10-18 14:39:05 <Titanium> ftp is fine
 601 2012-10-18 14:39:05 <gmaxwell> No, it's easy to work around. Thin clients should be for mobile devices.  Merchants and power users and infrastructure must all run full nodes.
 602 2012-10-18 14:39:11 <Titanium> ftp = http
 603 2012-10-18 14:39:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I want a full node on my mobile devices <.<
 604 2012-10-18 14:39:38 <Titanium> me too :)
 605 2012-10-18 14:39:43 <Titanium> i ahve 8 GB storage
 606 2012-10-18 14:39:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you can... with ultraprune I bet it's usuable on the nokia tablets now.
 607 2012-10-18 14:39:46 <Titanium> i can handle it
 608 2012-10-18 14:39:57 * Luke-Jr has 64 GB storage :P
 609 2012-10-18 14:39:58 <gmaxwell> Titanium: today, 1MB blocks is 52 gbytes/yr.
 610 2012-10-18 14:40:07 <Titanium> hats nothing
 611 2012-10-18 14:40:20 <Titanium> you store it in disk
 612 2012-10-18 14:40:22 <Titanium> not ram
 613 2012-10-18 14:40:27 <gmaxwell> people scream about 4gb and switch to using totally insecure webwallet solutions.
 614 2012-10-18 14:40:28 <Titanium> and have a nice SAN
 615 2012-10-18 14:40:43 <Titanium> its nothign for full power user nodes
 616 2012-10-18 14:41:04 <Titanium> for people that want 'just works' fuctionality they can use a thin client and be insecure with their $2 of bitcoins
 617 2012-10-18 14:41:07 <gmaxwell> Okay, I appoint you to be the guy that handles complaints about blockchain size.
 618 2012-10-18 14:41:17 <gmaxwell> Titanium: oh I wish it were that simple.
 619 2012-10-18 14:41:40 <Titanium> well, I for one will build whatever machine is reuired to handle that size :)
 620 2012-10-18 14:41:50 <gmaxwell> I helped someone with 50k btc the other day who was panicing after he saw a discussion that pointed out that a completely thin client was less secure than a full node.
 621 2012-10-18 14:42:07 <gmaxwell> Titanium: in any case, it doesn't make your worthless transactions any more viable.
 622 2012-10-18 14:42:09 <Titanium> anyways at work our tests generate several hundred GB of data per day
 623 2012-10-18 14:42:52 <gmaxwell> Titanium: your tests are not broadcast to the whole world and do not require large numbers of people to independantly validate them in order to make them secure.
 624 2012-10-18 14:42:59 <gmaxwell> It's really not the same thing at all.
 625 2012-10-18 14:43:01 <Titanium> a thin client doesnt matter for 50k bitcoins
 626 2012-10-18 14:43:12 <Titanium> it matters when YOU are recieving 50k bitcoins and giving someone a house
 627 2012-10-18 14:43:40 <Titanium> *assuming both have equal amounts of security cove reviewing and stuff
 628 2012-10-18 14:43:41 <gmaxwell> Titanium: um. how do you know you recieved those 50k bitcoins in the first place?
 629 2012-10-18 14:43:54 <Titanium> he did it before we switched to thin clients
 630 2012-10-18 14:44:13 <Titanium> and he can go to a block explorer web page and lok at all his wallet ids
 631 2012-10-18 14:44:18 <gmaxwell> he never ran anything except a thin client because he got bored waiting for the blockchain to sync after just an hour.
 632 2012-10-18 14:44:42 <Titanium> finally if he didnt have them, than whoever 'sent' them still has them
 633 2012-10-18 14:44:44 <gmaxwell> and the block explorer's are centeralized services which can be broken or insecure, shall i show you the screenshot of blockchain.info saying that I was paid 21 million btc?
 634 2012-10-18 14:44:58 <Titanium> your rich :)
 635 2012-10-18 14:45:11 <gmaxwell> if you want people to depend on centeralized services they might as well use paypal.
 636 2012-10-18 14:45:30 <Titanium> if he has 50k bitcoins he can spend 500 to build a 'safe' to hold his bitcoins
 637 2012-10-18 14:45:46 <gmaxwell> In any case, this is a pointless tangent. None of this makes what you want viable in bitcoin. All miners could accept all transactions and you still can't usefully use it to do worthless transactions.
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 639 2012-10-18 14:46:11 <Titanium> if I invested in the pool to mine the blocks I could
 640 2012-10-18 14:46:24 <Titanium> and then anyone else that mines blocks can too
 641 2012-10-18 14:46:29 <Titanium> it just takes a while
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 643 2012-10-18 14:46:48 <gmaxwell> ...
 644 2012-10-18 14:47:02 <gmaxwell> No, lets just assume all pools already did this, it still doesn't achieve what you want.
 645 2012-10-18 14:47:12 <Titanium> whats 1 bitcoin divided by the number of possible tx in a block?
 646 2012-10-18 14:47:20 <Titanium> thats the fee that I woudl make my minimum
 647 2012-10-18 14:47:33 <Titanium> then I get guranteed 2% in fees
 648 2012-10-18 14:47:56 <gmaxwell> hah. it's higher than the minimum non-free txn fee already!
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 650 2012-10-18 14:48:02 <Titanium> nooooooo
 651 2012-10-18 14:48:07 <Titanium> then my plans are all hopeless
 652 2012-10-18 14:48:11 <Titanium> thanks for killing my dreams :(
 653 2012-10-18 14:48:24 <gmaxwell> Gee, i think I told you this without wasting a half hour of my time.
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 655 2012-10-18 14:48:50 <Titanium> i appreciate the time, got an address for tips?
 656 2012-10-18 14:48:57 <gmaxwell> :P
 657 2012-10-18 14:49:12 <Titanium> il send all the bitcoin in my wallet, but it wont even be minimum wage :(
 658 2012-10-18 14:49:28 <gmaxwell> pshaw. Keep it. :P (or if you want to get rid of your coins, send it to the faucet)
 659 2012-10-18 14:49:45 <Titanium> i just need to get off my lazy ass and fix my miners
 660 2012-10-18 14:49:52 <Titanium> i ran into an interesting problem
 661 2012-10-18 14:50:08 <Titanium> in ESXi 5.1, with more than 4 GB of RAM total in the gfx cards
 662 2012-10-18 14:50:26 <Titanium> i have to enable that >4gb pci address space option in bios or they dotn all work
 663 2012-10-18 14:50:41 <Titanium> and if I do that ESXi gives me some really wierd errors when I boot them VMs
 664 2012-10-18 14:51:23 <Titanium> also it seems that theres a bug where once the LOM 10gbps ports are disbled they cant be un-disabled...
 665 2012-10-18 14:52:19 <Titanium> im tryign to make a bitcoin miner that doubles as a multibox machine for a game
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 667 2012-10-18 14:53:06 <Titanium> also with 3x 1GB gpu it worked fine and I was mining away inside 3 VMs :D
 668 2012-10-18 14:54:14 <Titanium> have fun, im waiting for sha256 to be broken and all the asic miners to become useless so I can use all the cheap GPU I have :)
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 675 2012-10-18 15:02:52 <_dr> Titanium: sha1 was published is 1995 and remains unbroken
 676 2012-10-18 15:03:12 <_dr> there have been hints about weaknesses in 2005, but it still remains secure
 677 2012-10-18 15:03:27 <_dr> what makes you think sha2 will be broken?
 678 2012-10-18 15:04:16 <gmaxwell> Even using md5 for the proof of work wouln't be problematic.
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 680 2012-10-18 15:05:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: nice attack: generate two blocks that refer to eachother as parent
 681 2012-10-18 15:06:41 <gmaxwell> made at least somewhat harder by prev being in the middle instead of at the end at least.
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 709 2012-10-18 16:10:00 <jgarzik> any progress on 0.7.1 release
 710 2012-10-18 16:10:08 * jgarzik doesn't see gavinandresen around
 711 2012-10-18 16:10:49 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: it's done I think?
 712 2012-10-18 16:11:54 <jgarzik> waiting for more sigs and announcement, I thought?
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 765 2012-10-18 18:07:42 <midnightmagic> _dr: SHA1 does NOT remain secure given the rapid progress in attacks against it. That is, nobody should expect SHA1 to remain secure for the usable future.
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 769 2012-10-18 18:13:33 <MC1984> i wonder if bitcoin could fork to update to sha3 and a faster EC algo at the same time
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 771 2012-10-18 18:13:43 <midnightmagic> MC1984: what would be the point?
 772 2012-10-18 18:14:04 <MC1984> nothing is secure forever?
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 774 2012-10-18 18:14:32 <MC1984> i dont know if the current dev team would have the resources to do it though, in terms of testing
 775 2012-10-18 18:15:07 <MC1984> i mean i would want some real deal crypto boffins to go over the changes a hundred times first
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 777 2012-10-18 18:17:48 <midnightmagic> MC1984: I have suggested in the past having an easy or built-in upgrade path to a new hash algorithm; the response was that dev resources are tight, this is not a priority, and would require a hardfork of the blockchain anyway. I think, personally, waiting for evidence of a break before safeguarding against it is justifiable insofar as the devs aren't being paid with money from people who want that. :)
 778 2012-10-18 18:18:37 <_dr> midnightmagic: there's feasible attack yet
 779 2012-10-18 18:18:41 <midnightmagic> MC1984: There are other ways of composing hashes or crypto functions which would survive a break of either one. References for this are the 100-years-crypto project @ tahoe-lafs.
 780 2012-10-18 18:19:03 Hasimir_ has joined
 781 2012-10-18 18:19:22 <maaku> a better response is: it's not a priority for me or anyone else here, but feel free to maintain a just-in-case SHA3 branch and migration pathway if that makes you feel good
 782 2012-10-18 18:19:31 <MC1984> 100 years crypto you say
 783 2012-10-18 18:19:43 <midnightmagic> MC1984: I do not know why Satoshi decided on a double-sha256, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was evaluating composable crypto functions to replace the second sha256 before he left..
 784 2012-10-18 18:19:48 <midnightmagic> MC1984: It's just a name.
 785 2012-10-18 18:20:10 <MC1984> i was looking at tahoe lafs today, wondering why the new megaupload didnt make use of it
 786 2012-10-18 18:20:10 <midnightmagic> maaku: That is why I don't harp on anybody about it.
 787 2012-10-18 18:20:55 <MC1984> of course the big problem with changing any part of the double sha is ASICS
 788 2012-10-18 18:21:15 osmosis has joined
 789 2012-10-18 18:21:20 <MC1984> it seems that if it was ever going to be done now is the time
 790 2012-10-18 18:21:28 <midnightmagic> maaku: Nor am I complaining about the dev response. It is justified: there are other more important things to be concerned with.
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 792 2012-10-18 18:22:01 <maaku> MC1984: there's no reason to do it now
 793 2012-10-18 18:22:09 <maaku> MC1984: how do you know SHA3 is more secure than SHA2?
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 796 2012-10-18 18:22:35 <maaku> in absence of a published attack, there is no reason to enact a switch
 797 2012-10-18 18:22:36 <MC1984> i dont
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 799 2012-10-18 18:23:02 <midnightmagic> maaku: Except the fact that a published break invalidates history.
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 802 2012-10-18 18:23:59 <midnightmagic> and wrecks history between the time the break is published, and the time a hardfork upgrade is coded.
 803 2012-10-18 18:25:31 <midnightmagic> I suspect that particular upgrade path would be the fastest upgrade the network would have ever seen. :)'
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 808 2012-10-18 18:30:04 <MC1984> sneeze on my screen
 809 2012-10-18 18:30:09 <MC1984> OOOOOH SPARKLY
 810 2012-10-18 18:30:51 <midnightmagic> MC1984: Thus, I think your instincts are kind-of in the right place. There is a rumour about an ASIC doomsday scenario whereby if one asic vendor decides to be a douche (*cough* asicminer *cough*) and dominate hashrate in an evil or trust-destroying way, the idea is that the algo will change subtly so all gpu and fpga can keep mining, and then *also* all other asic vendors who have implemented their own minor tweaks to the mining
 811 2012-10-18 18:30:57 <midnightmagic> algo they can switch on. So in the end, all BUT the misbehaving asic hardware keeps going. (And the network would then accept 1+(n[-1]) different block types where n is the number of all asic vendors who implemented a secret-sauce in their asic.)
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 814 2012-10-18 18:32:10 <midnightmagic> That would require the same kind of hardfork as "upgrading" to SHA3 or changing to use chained strong hashes to survive the break of just one.
 815 2012-10-18 18:32:15 <MC1984> wait so who decides which asics get junked?
 816 2012-10-18 18:32:25 <midnightmagic> MC1984: The bitcoin network of users and miners.
 817 2012-10-18 18:32:33 <MC1984> how
 818 2012-10-18 18:33:01 <midnightmagic> MC1984: Presumably "a" dev will offer a new binary capable of excluding the naughty asic. If everyone upgrades to it to punish the misbehaver, then success.
 819 2012-10-18 18:33:10 <midnightmagic> sorry, new source.
 820 2012-10-18 18:33:46 <MC1984> so asic manufactureres would have to agree to designing in a dev controlled kill switch
 821 2012-10-18 18:33:52 <MC1984> or reverse kill switch
 822 2012-10-18 18:34:18 <midnightmagic> MC1984: It would be in their best interests to have added the ability to mine slightly differently than the base algorithm, and in a secret way.
 823 2012-10-18 18:34:36 <midnightmagic> MC1984: So really, it's a ..  yeah a reverse kill switch to murder their competitors if necessary.
 824 2012-10-18 18:34:55 <MC1984> good intentions but sounds like a custerfuck
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 826 2012-10-18 18:35:11 <midnightmagic> MC1984: Although perhaps colluding asic manufacturers would benefit the most by secretly including their competitor's algo *as well* as their own.
 827 2012-10-18 18:35:43 <MC1984> shits byzantine yo
 828 2012-10-18 18:35:49 <midnightmagic> MC1984: we'll see what the asic vendors do. I suspect the potential for a long-term destruction of bitcoin value will keep them in line by itself.
 829 2012-10-18 18:36:29 <MC1984> the preferred situation is no single asic producer would be able to take over if they wanted to, see: current situation with pools
 830 2012-10-18 18:36:41 <MC1984> what matters is capability, not intent
 831 2012-10-18 18:37:04 <midnightmagic> MC1984: p2pool and others like it are destined to eventually kill centralized pools anyway.
 832 2012-10-18 18:37:29 <MC1984> yeah but not as fast as id hoped
 833 2012-10-18 18:37:42 <midnightmagic> MC1984: But the ability to kill should be kept in check by competition and the fact that hobbiests are still doing this in their spare time.
 834 2012-10-18 18:37:47 <MC1984> plus everyone on p2pool would make a hard fork a complete nightmare
 835 2012-10-18 18:37:59 <MC1984> hard forks are the easiest they will ever be right now due to the pools
 836 2012-10-18 18:38:09 <midnightmagic> MC1984: p2pool users appear to be the fastest get-on-the-edge miners I've seen.
 837 2012-10-18 18:38:34 <MC1984> yes but theres no many more of them
 838 2012-10-18 18:38:44 <midnightmagic> Sorry?
 839 2012-10-18 18:38:50 <MC1984> than pools
 840 2012-10-18 18:39:12 <midnightmagic> gavin has stated in the past he would be in favour of including a p2pool module directly in mainline.
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 843 2012-10-18 18:40:50 <MC1984> great, id love to see that
 844 2012-10-18 18:41:11 <midnightmagic> MC1984: but it doesn't matter whether p2pool is currently small. there's a change coming which looks to me like it might make p2pool'ers' blocks more rapidly distributed to the network than anyone else's :-)
 845 2012-10-18 18:41:27 <MC1984> really?
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 847 2012-10-18 18:41:42 <midnightmagic> MC1984: Yeah it's pretty freaky how fast forrest prototypes stuff
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 849 2012-10-18 18:42:03 <MC1984> yeah good stuff
 850 2012-10-18 18:42:12 <MC1984> i hope people toss him a few coins
 851 2012-10-18 18:42:24 <midnightmagic> MC1984: So, except for weird places like gpumax that pay extra, or puppetmaster or whatever, p2pool *might* be advantageous over the long haul to run.
 852 2012-10-18 18:42:39 <gmaxwell> I think he gets about 1GH/s worth of donated mining. Kinda sad.
 853 2012-10-18 18:42:45 <midnightmagic> :-/
 854 2012-10-18 18:42:50 <midnightmagic> he'll get more when asic arrive.
 855 2012-10-18 18:43:49 <MC1984> is there a p2pool dev thread anywhere
 856 2012-10-18 18:44:13 <gmaxwell> well, I'm guilty of it. Though I've tried to make up for it by promoting p2pool (running ads, talking people into it, donating to p2pool miners, etc). It doesn't pay him directly but p2pool growing eventually brings him more donors.
 857 2012-10-18 18:44:32 <gmaxwell> MC1984: forrest doess 99.9% himself; so not much use for a thread.
 858 2012-10-18 18:45:20 <MC1984> anyone consider what pool ops could do to hinder forest and p2pool?
 859 2012-10-18 18:45:25 <MC1984> if anything
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 861 2012-10-18 18:46:33 <gmaxwell> MC1984: they can do withholding attacks.
 862 2012-10-18 18:46:52 <gmaxwell> make p2pool 'unlucky'
 863 2012-10-18 18:47:03 <MC1984> any evidence of that going on?
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 865 2012-10-18 18:47:17 <MC1984> wasnt p2pool unlucky at the start
 866 2012-10-18 18:47:39 <gmaxwell> No, not at the start. It's basically impossible to have evidence of it, unfortunately.
 867 2012-10-18 18:48:18 <MC1984> bitcoin is full of little emergent facets of game theory and stuff like that
 868 2012-10-18 18:48:24 <MC1984> quite interesting
 869 2012-10-18 18:49:01 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I try my best to promote it to other people as much as possible. That implicit support from gavin was really important, I think.
 870 2012-10-18 18:49:10 <MC1984> i think theres a place for pools in the future, if only for the community aspect, but in general they gotta go
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 873 2012-10-18 18:52:41 <MC1984> eh this ultraprune build is still dog slow to sync on this usb stick
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 875 2012-10-18 18:53:46 <MC1984> i suppose i cant expect miracles, it works fine for everyone else
 876 2012-10-18 18:54:08 <MC1984> i still cant get this bootstrap.at to do anything eitehr, or if it is then i cant even tell
 877 2012-10-18 18:54:45 <MC1984> can you use bootstrap.dat to finish off a partial sync or does it have to go from the start?
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 885 2012-10-18 19:07:06 <MC1984> writing "bitcoin.org" onto every fiat note you handle
 886 2012-10-18 19:07:10 <MC1984> good idea, bad idea?
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 888 2012-10-18 19:08:07 <copumpkin> bad idea
 889 2012-10-18 19:08:17 <copumpkin> some currencies are considered void if defaced
 890 2012-10-18 19:08:24 <copumpkin> so people might not take them
 891 2012-10-18 19:09:05 <MC1984> i think bank of england notes are ok as long as the serial number is visible and atleast 50% of the note is intact
 892 2012-10-18 19:09:21 Guest83963 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 893 2012-10-18 19:09:23 <MC1984> oh and its trason to deface the image of the Queen or something
 894 2012-10-18 19:09:27 robocoin has quit (Client Quit)
 895 2012-10-18 19:09:55 <MC1984> depends on how fussy the shopkeep is
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 901 2012-10-18 19:18:24 <BlueMatt> TD[gone]: so ive got some free time in the next 3/4 days and I plan on refactoring the Stored* crap and updating some of the FullPruned storage stuff: should I base it on top of hearn/master?
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 909 2012-10-18 19:32:48 <jgarzik> ok
 910 2012-10-18 19:33:00 <jgarzik> revised the Ron/Shamir peer review gist a bit:  https://gist.github.com/3901921
 911 2012-10-18 19:34:45 <helo> is there a way for them to have scraped the html from blockexplorer without the data changing underneath them?
 912 2012-10-18 19:35:03 <helo> i guess they can look at individual block contents
 913 2012-10-18 19:35:25 <helo> which i suppose is what they did to build the graphs of transactions
 914 2012-10-18 19:38:11 <sipa> jgarzik: you saw their answer to davout?
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 916 2012-10-18 19:38:15 <jgarzik> sipa: yes
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 918 2012-10-18 19:38:22 <gmaxwell> I missed that.
 919 2012-10-18 19:38:26 <jgarzik> sipa: meni's letter was pretty good, too
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 921 2012-10-18 19:45:58 <jgarzik> davout's letter, and their response: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118797.msg1280496#msg1280496
 922 2012-10-18 19:46:11 <jgarzik> meni's letter: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118797.msg1281470#msg1281470
 923 2012-10-18 19:47:47 <gmaxwell> " We quoted from an official policy statement"
 924 2012-10-18 19:48:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: everybody is wondering about that one
 925 2012-10-18 19:48:10 <gmaxwell> No, if you want to be pedantic, you plagerized a random website without even bothering to attribute it.
 926 2012-10-18 19:48:18 <gmaxwell> Nothing to wonder
 927 2012-10-18 19:48:28 <gmaxwell> Part of that was text they copied out of the block explorer help.
 928 2012-10-18 19:48:48 <gmaxwell> Had they bothered to cite their source the origin of the error would have been obvious.
 929 2012-10-18 19:49:45 <gmaxwell> The answer should be, "you quoted? I don't see a citation. Was their an editorial error here?"
 930 2012-10-18 19:51:50 <gmaxwell> I don't agree with mini's comment on the forum; but I also don't care much about the conclusion.
 931 2012-10-18 19:51:59 <gmaxwell> the "They say 60% of coins haven't moved in 3 months; those can safely be considered some kind of savings. So the actual amount of savings would be somewhere between 60% and 78%"
 932 2012-10-18 19:52:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. MTGOX's big stashes have not moved in three months. Are those coins in 'savings'? Even ones being traded daily on the exchange?
 933 2012-10-18 19:53:35 <gmaxwell> mini's comments on change and coin selection and recommended practices are good and important.
 934 2012-10-18 19:54:30 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
 935 2012-10-18 19:55:15 <jgarzik> yeah, the waters get muddy when you start talking about conclusions (outputs) rather than assumptions and data (inputs)
 936 2012-10-18 19:55:27 <jgarzik> mini
 937 2012-10-18 19:55:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you should factor in meni's comments about recommended usage. The "if people used bitcoin as recommended 100% of coins would be in savings according to this analysis"
 938 2012-10-18 19:55:28 <jgarzik> heh
 939 2012-10-18 19:55:35 <gmaxwell> heh
 940 2012-10-18 19:55:58 <gmaxwell> Yea, I don't really care much about them, though noting the metric they're using is ... bizarre. is worthwhile.
 941 2012-10-18 19:56:57 <gmaxwell> Even in my regular wallet which I've made no special effort to keep the inputs unlinked is supprisingly only about 30% crossliked.
 942 2012-10-18 19:57:04 <gmaxwell> crosslinked*
 943 2012-10-18 19:57:17 <jgarzik> I'm bloody awful for self-privacy in my mainnet wallet
 944 2012-10-18 19:57:28 <jgarzik> I "compress" things down to a single coin, every few months
 945 2012-10-18 19:57:44 <gmaxwell> ah as noted on the gist comments, "The astonishing thing is that 22% of bitcoins are in RE-USED addresses!"
 946 2012-10-18 19:58:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ah, I compress things down into 10,20,50,100 btc chunks, reduces the txout set size but gives coin selection nice matches to pick from.
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 950 2012-10-18 20:12:38 <freewil> why do you guys mean exactly by compressing
 951 2012-10-18 20:12:43 <freewil> s/why/what
 952 2012-10-18 20:13:15 <gmaxwell> freewil: in what what context?
 953 2012-10-18 20:13:26 <freewil> <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ah, I compress things down into 10,20,50,100 btc chunks, reduces the txout set size but gives coin selection nice matches to pick from.
 954 2012-10-18 20:13:30 <edcba> how much different amounts are spent ?
 955 2012-10-18 20:13:45 <gmaxwell> freewil: combine inputs.
 956 2012-10-18 20:14:01 <freewil> how? by creating a new transaction?
 957 2012-10-18 20:14:27 <gmaxwell> Yes.
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 959 2012-10-18 20:14:35 <freewil> i see
 960 2012-10-18 20:15:32 <Matt_von_Mises> I got the 100 miner test blocks to successfully validate. I listed blocks I'll need to test, can anyone think of any missing ones?: http://pastebin.com/cfXyYqCa
 961 2012-10-18 20:16:15 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: use gcov+lcov and make sure all the failure cases in your (/our) validation logic get hit.
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 963 2012-10-18 20:18:43 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: Well I tried to get all the failure cases. I should also add blocks to test some of the obscure parts of the block-chain re-organisation code too...
 964 2012-10-18 20:19:03 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: where is unlocked txn?
 965 2012-10-18 20:19:32 <gmaxwell> I know you're trying, I'm suggesting that if you look at the branch coverage analysis you may find some cases you're missing like a block with an unlocked txn
 966 2012-10-18 20:19:58 <gmaxwell> because you'll have some if(unlocked)return fail; branch not taken.
 967 2012-10-18 20:20:30 <gmaxwell> txout value <= input, txout value integer overflow.
 968 2012-10-18 20:21:11 <gmaxwell> coinbase output value integer overflow
 969 2012-10-18 20:21:48 <Matt_von_Mises> I already do transaction tests.
 970 2012-10-18 20:22:01 <Matt_von_Mises> No need to have separate blocks for those.
 971 2012-10-18 20:22:46 <gmaxwell> how do you have a test for enforcing that a transaction in a block must be locked without having it in a block??
 972 2012-10-18 20:23:52 <gmaxwell> file:///home/gmaxwell/src/bcm/bax/src/coverage/home/gmaxwell/src/bcm/bax/src/main.cpp.gcov.html < e.g. in this analysis you can see first is not coinbase and later is coinbase cases are untested. (line 1763)
 973 2012-10-18 20:24:16 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: I added the locktime tests to the list
 974 2012-10-18 20:25:34 <gmaxwell> oops wrong url https://people.xiph.org/~greg/bitcoin_coverage/coverage/home/gmaxwell/src/bcm/bax/src/main.cpp.gcov.html
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 976 2012-10-18 20:26:48 <gmaxwell> * Block with timestamp 1231006505.  < which rule is this intending to test? the median based minimum?
 977 2012-10-18 20:27:35 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: Yes
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 979 2012-10-18 20:28:58 * midnightmagic suddenly wants to write a multi-tx mixer for friends that's easy to use. :-/
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 981 2012-10-18 20:31:08 <Matt_von_Mises> gmaxwell: 1231006505 is the genesis block time. The next block needs to be above that. I should also have another block for after the 100 blocks...
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 983 2012-10-18 20:31:53 <Matt_von_Mises> In fact a single test for after the 100 blocks is all that is important.
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 989 2012-10-18 20:40:06 <gmaxwell> Matt_von_Mises: you can't do it with just 1000 blocks but the difficulty change clamps are useful to test.
 990 2012-10-18 20:43:45 <Matt_von_Mises> That would require a lot of blocks to test but you could go up to the difficulty change and try the fail-case of a block which satisfies the old target but not the new one.
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 992 2012-10-18 20:44:40 <Matt_von_Mises> I can hard code the blocks from the bitcoin network chain upto the first difficulty change and then create a block for that test.
 993 2012-10-18 20:44:47 <Matt_von_Mises> For now I'll look at these other tests.
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 998 2012-10-18 20:50:40 <darkip> Hey, I was wondering if anyone could spare a dump of their historical data
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1000 2012-10-18 20:50:49 <darkip> (diff / hashrate etc)
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1005 2012-10-18 21:11:14 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: see also: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files
1006 2012-10-18 21:11:33 <BlueMatt> (which generates fun block test cases that any full node should be capable of responding to (it connects via p2p protocol to localhost)
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1008 2012-10-18 21:15:55 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: Thanks. Is there documentation anywhere for it?
1009 2012-10-18 21:16:48 <BlueMatt> no, it was more of a hack to test bitcoinj before I started using it to test other clients too, so...eh
1010 2012-10-18 21:16:55 <BlueMatt> having documentation is no fun ;)
1011 2012-10-18 21:17:14 <BlueMatt> most, make sure local node is listening with the equivalent of that patch applied, run the jar
1012 2012-10-18 21:17:22 <BlueMatt> look at the end for blocks differing in acceptance
1013 2012-10-18 21:19:12 <Matt_von_Mises> Well I've not got the network side yet. I've only got most of the validation code.
1014 2012-10-18 21:20:22 <BlueMatt> ah, well then you'd have to write a wrapper to feed it blocks
1015 2012-10-18 21:20:41 <sipa> darkip: see bitcoin.sipa.be
1016 2012-10-18 21:21:47 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: if you can write some wrapper to accept block messages, feed them in, and then compare the best height to the one the compare tool gives you, it would work...
1017 2012-10-18 21:21:48 <darkip> sipa: Can I download it from there? (raw data)
1018 2012-10-18 21:21:59 <darkip> sipa: your charts are ace btw :) gnuplot?
1019 2012-10-18 21:22:10 <sipa> i can give the data files yes, but not right now
1020 2012-10-18 21:22:14 <sipa> gnuplot indeed
1021 2012-10-18 21:22:19 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: Does it contain any block data that I can take from it which satisfies any tests here: http://pastebin.com/cfXyYqCa ?
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1023 2012-10-18 21:24:14 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: it should hit most of those (not sure about one or two) it hits close to 100% lcov on the reference implementation for block verification rules; in terms of pulling out the block data...its effectively an altcoin just so that it can mine blocks with an impossibly low diff while running (the blocks arent static), but it shouldnt be impossible to get the block list from it and mine them to make them work on regular prodnet
1024 2012-10-18 21:24:23 <sipa> btw: BlueMatt++ for pulltester :)
1025 2012-10-18 21:24:55 <BlueMatt> what, did it catch something?
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1027 2012-10-18 21:26:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: is it working on ultraprune, btw?
1028 2012-10-18 21:26:25 <sipa> no, but it gives a lot of confidence when pulling :)
1029 2012-10-18 21:26:25 <sipa> i still haven't seen it succeed for ultraprune, which is a pity
1030 2012-10-18 21:26:27 <sipa> but i'm oretty confident in that myself now, after finding an actual block using it
1031 2012-10-18 21:26:27 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: OK thanks. What I'm looking for are production network test blocks. I was thinking of disabling the PoW checks which would be easy but it's worth asking for people to generate the hashes so the tests work more nicely.
1032 2012-10-18 21:27:10 <darkip> sipa: PM?
1033 2012-10-18 21:27:35 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: yea, mining those blocks at diff 1 shouldnt be hard and its on my todo list after a few things and possibly adding more tests to the list
1034 2012-10-18 21:27:45 <BlueMatt> (so that it becomes a regular prodnet chain)
1035 2012-10-18 21:27:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: is the patch still conflicting? :(
1036 2012-10-18 21:28:51 cjd has joined
1037 2012-10-18 21:29:49 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: yea, there are two or three tests on that list that that ~60 block chain doesnt cover, but it also does reorg/etc testing, so...
1038 2012-10-18 21:30:11 <cjd> Hi guys, I was just wondering if the escrow stuff includes a do-or-die type transaction where you can kill the transaction within like 72 hours but you lose the money..
1039 2012-10-18 21:30:22 <Matt_von_Mises> I'll make a topic on the forums to see if anyone would be interested in generating blocks I have listed so far or if anyone else has comments…
1040 2012-10-18 21:30:49 <cjd> The most efficient way I can think of is a PTSH OR PTSH where one sighash is for a tx to a known "bad" address
1041 2012-10-18 21:30:50 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: meh, Ill just throw them in those tested by that tool...they'll get mined into regular blocks eventually ;)
1042 2012-10-18 21:31:10 <cjd> oh and the other has an nlocktime 72 hours in the future
1043 2012-10-18 21:31:45 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: So you'll be able to generate them for the production network difficulty rules?
1044 2012-10-18 21:32:08 <BlueMatt> cjd: yes, it is possible: mostly eg "if both parties agree: coins sent" with a second tx: "nlocktime in 72 hours to eff or null"
1045 2012-10-18 21:32:24 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: yea, I just havent gotten around to it
1046 2012-10-18 21:32:38 <cjd> ok so pretty much what I was thinking, interesting
1047 2012-10-18 21:33:31 <cjd> It kind of makes sense asa chargeback without the obvious chargeback fraud risk
1048 2012-10-18 21:33:41 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: I'll make a topic and perhaps you could make a post mentioning the pulltester and others could perhaps get to it first?
1049 2012-10-18 21:33:47 <cjd> no really a chargeback but nobody wins
1050 2012-10-18 21:33:52 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: sounds good
1051 2012-10-18 21:33:52 <cjd> *not
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1053 2012-10-18 21:51:30 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: OK, this is the topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119158.0 So feel free to add additional information that you want.
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1060 2012-10-18 22:02:57 <BlueMatt> Matt_von_Mises: responded
1061 2012-10-18 22:04:19 <Matt_von_Mises> BlueMatt: Great. Hopefully some people will be interested in helping out.
1062 2012-10-18 22:04:42 <Matt_von_Mises> I'm done for tonight. I'll be off. Goodnight.
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1066 2012-10-18 22:05:06 <BlueMatt> night
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1069 2012-10-18 22:08:06 <D34TH> hmm, abe doesnt seem to be recognizing the blockchain
1070 2012-10-18 22:08:07 <da2ce775> ping sipa
1071 2012-10-18 22:08:50 <sipa> pang da2ce775
1072 2012-10-18 22:09:13 <da2ce775> ooh wow, /me feels werid being back in #bitcoin-dev land.
1073 2012-10-18 22:12:31 <sipa> where've you been?
1074 2012-10-18 22:13:04 <da2ce775> However we use encryption throughout our protocols, we were wondering if we could design a updated BIP 32 that binds a (optional) EC encryption key to a EC signing key.  (having one tree be only able to generate decryption keys, the other generate the encryption keysI've been in #opentransactions
1075 2012-10-18 22:13:20 <da2ce775> oh, i've been in #opentransactions
1076 2012-10-18 22:13:44 <da2ce775> ^^^ about BIP 32
1077 2012-10-18 22:13:49 <sipa> i don't see why you'd need to change anything for that?
1078 2012-10-18 22:14:02 <sipa> you can apply ECIES as-in on EC keys
1079 2012-10-18 22:14:06 <sipa> *as-is
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1081 2012-10-18 22:14:39 <da2ce775> oh, :S I thought the key-form was slightly different... but if not, we are winning!
1082 2012-10-18 22:16:14 <da2ce775> I still don't understand the EC cypto properly.
1083 2012-10-18 22:19:11 <da2ce775> so would it ever be possible to 'encrypt to a bitcoin public key' ?
1084 2012-10-18 22:19:32 vampireb has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1085 2012-10-18 22:19:39 <da2ce775> or once it has been turned into a public key, it can only be used for signing?
1086 2012-10-18 22:20:00 <sipa> sure that is possible
1087 2012-10-18 22:20:12 <gmaxwell> Not an address, however, of course.
1088 2012-10-18 22:20:37 <da2ce775> yes, a adress can be a script or whatever,
1089 2012-10-18 22:20:56 <sipa> ?
1090 2012-10-18 22:21:16 <da2ce775> hmm... well a address is a hash of the public key, or a hash of a script?
1091 2012-10-18 22:21:26 <sipa> yes, either is possible
1092 2012-10-18 22:22:09 <sipa> but you can encrypt to a public key with EC-IES
1093 2012-10-18 22:22:16 <da2ce775> wonderfull!
1094 2012-10-18 22:22:24 <da2ce775> that is all that I needed to hear! :)
1095 2012-10-18 22:22:44 <sipa> there's some overhead though
1096 2012-10-18 22:23:19 <darkip> sipa: I'm off to bed (11 UK time), but can I catch you here tomorrow to grab that data (if you're still offering!)
1097 2012-10-18 22:23:31 <da2ce775> well it shouldn't be that bad, we will only use it to negotiate symmetric keys
1098 2012-10-18 22:23:31 <sipa> oh just a sec
1099 2012-10-18 22:23:41 <sipa> da2ce775: that is the only thing EC-IES does
1100 2012-10-18 22:24:02 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1101 2012-10-18 22:24:06 <sipa> well, EC-IES is basically ECDH to negotiate a symmetric AES key, and then use that AES key to encrypt the actual data
1102 2012-10-18 22:24:23 <sipa> and ECDH is really simply :)
1103 2012-10-18 22:24:26 <sipa> *simple
1104 2012-10-18 22:25:36 <da2ce775> this is super cool.  Since I've been thinking of moving all the cypto to bitcoin compadible cypto, so we can do super cool things with colored coins.
1105 2012-10-18 22:26:01 <sipa> darkip: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/blocks.txt
1106 2012-10-18 22:26:18 <da2ce775> we can have a OT contract (with OT server scripts) defiend by a coloured coin for off-server and inter-server transers and
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1110 2012-10-18 22:26:31 <darkip> sipa: thanks!
1111 2012-10-18 22:26:37 <sipa> height, hash, timestamp, difficulty, #tx
1112 2012-10-18 22:26:47 <da2ce775> the 'OT' functions come into play when you deposit the coloured coin onto a OT server.
1113 2012-10-18 22:28:00 <darkip> sipa: Ahh, I see now, you can regenerate all the historical data just from the blockchain?
1114 2012-10-18 22:28:04 <darkip> (other than price of course)
1115 2012-10-18 22:28:19 <da2ce775> a isser ID would become a p2sh of a OT contract and network rules (such as a x of y rule), and the bitcoin network will enforce these rules.
1116 2012-10-18 22:28:22 <sipa> darkip: where else?
1117 2012-10-18 22:28:41 <darkip> hehe :)
1118 2012-10-18 22:28:50 <da2ce775> a nym and a bitcoin address will become 1 and the same thing.
1119 2012-10-18 22:28:58 <darkip> I was sitting there thinking - "How has get got data all the way from block 0"
1120 2012-10-18 22:29:00 <darkip> "OHHHHHHH"
1121 2012-10-18 22:29:36 <firethief> da2ce775: OT in the blockchain is an awesome idea thta may allow some cool shit to be possible, but one ofthe things about OT is that it addresses the shortcoming whereby a blockchain system can never offer instant verification, right?
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1123 2012-10-18 22:30:31 <Luke-Jr> firethief: the blockchain brings verification where it was formerly impossible ever
1124 2012-10-18 22:30:49 <da2ce775> firethief: of course, that is why you can always depsoit your Coloured Bitcoin OT Tokens to a OT Server.  Then you can have access to all the feature that only posible by a OT server.
1125 2012-10-18 22:31:42 <sipa> it's a balance... either centralized, anonymous and instantly verifiable... or decentralized, pseudonymous and exponentially-improving verification
1126 2012-10-18 22:32:15 <firethief> da2ce775: well clearly it should be possible to xfer an OT asset into the blockchain; this is the main reason colored-coins are useful
1127 2012-10-18 22:33:35 <da2ce775> firethief: well this is a new take of colored coins... since the OT Asset Contract is defined within the p2sh script, (along with who can issue it).
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1129 2012-10-18 22:34:11 <firethief> yeehi1: what do you mean by "Give cash to somebody?"? localbitcoins.com provides convenient ways to sell/buy btc in person, though it takes a 1% fee
1130 2012-10-18 22:34:15 <da2ce775> and we can do some verifcation that the public key defined in the asset-contract matches the public keys defined in the script hash.
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1132 2012-10-18 22:35:33 <da2ce775> sipa: have the centralized and decentralized fundernetaly inter-changeable.  so people can go in-between naturaly with their changing needs :)
1133 2012-10-18 22:35:39 <firethief> da2ce775: I agree that that one of the most powerful uses for CC is being able to xfer OT assets into the blockchain, if that"s what you"re referring to.
1134 2012-10-18 22:37:10 <da2ce775> firethief: well it isn't really "xfer OT assets into the blockchain" rarther, a OT asset will be issued on the blockchain, and can be optionaly deposited into a OT server for more features.
1135 2012-10-18 22:37:47 <da2ce775> likewise, anyone could deposit BTC into a OT server and have access to all the OT features (aka instant verification).
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1137 2012-10-18 22:38:58 <da2ce775> since OT server ID will just become a p2sh (with certan bitcoin-network enforced rules + hash of the OT server contract).
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1140 2012-10-18 22:42:27 <da2ce775> sipa: that is wonderfull news that the bitcoin keys can be used for EC-IES;  :)  and will be chating again soon... It seems that in the future our teams will be working more closely.
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1142 2012-10-18 22:43:52 <sipa> da2ce775: to encrypt data, generate a number x; multiply it with the receiver's public key Y; take SHA256(x*Y), and use that as symmetric key for the rest of what you're sending
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1144 2012-10-18 22:44:27 <sipa> da2ce775: and then send AES(key=SHA256(x*Y),data) and G*x
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1146 2012-10-18 22:45:06 <sipa> receiver then takes his private key y, and multiplies it by (G*x)
1147 2012-10-18 22:45:16 <sipa> takes the hash, and he gets the same symmetric key
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1165 2012-10-18 23:11:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: can you poke pulltester to try doing ultraprune?
1166 2012-10-18 23:12:49 <BlueMatt> hmm...yea, let me see...
1167 2012-10-18 23:15:39 <BlueMatt> hmm...github's api is returning fewer results than I remember, even ultraprune isnt on it
1168 2012-10-18 23:17:31 <sipa> too old, maybe :)
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1170 2012-10-18 23:19:27 <BlueMatt> yea, it only returns a small subset, and I see no docs on how to return more...
1171 2012-10-18 23:19:35 <BlueMatt> https://api.github.com/repos/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls its missing a lot
1172 2012-10-18 23:20:05 <Luke-Jr> Perl libwww ftw?
1173 2012-10-18 23:20:09 <Diablo-D3> no
1174 2012-10-18 23:20:14 <Diablo-D3> github was down like all day today
1175 2012-10-18 23:20:21 <Diablo-D3> shits probably slowly coming back online due to ddos
1176 2012-10-18 23:20:35 <BlueMatt> no, its always missing a ton of pulls
1177 2012-10-18 23:20:36 <Diablo-D3> I imagine a lot of syncho between DCs is fubar and catching up
1178 2012-10-18 23:20:42 <Diablo-D3> bluematt: huh
1179 2012-10-18 23:20:43 <Diablo-D3> weird
1180 2012-10-18 23:20:49 <Diablo-D3> do the pulls exist?
1181 2012-10-18 23:20:50 <BlueMatt> yea, I dont get it either...
1182 2012-10-18 23:20:51 <BlueMatt> yes
1183 2012-10-18 23:20:54 <Diablo-D3> I mean, is it just that api doing that
1184 2012-10-18 23:20:54 <BlueMatt> well, they show up in gui
1185 2012-10-18 23:21:00 <Diablo-D3> thats extra weird
1186 2012-10-18 23:21:00 <BlueMatt> yea
1187 2012-10-18 23:21:02 <Diablo-D3> file a bug?
1188 2012-10-18 23:21:09 <BlueMatt> havent gotten around to it...
1189 2012-10-18 23:21:19 <Diablo-D3> do it
1190 2012-10-18 23:21:23 <Diablo-D3> they might not know its happening
1191 2012-10-18 23:21:23 <BlueMatt> maybe its limited for some reason, dunno, but I dont see it in the docs
1192 2012-10-18 23:21:26 <sipa> it seems to only have the most recent ones
1193 2012-10-18 23:22:39 <BlueMatt> yea
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1196 2012-10-18 23:22:53 <Diablo-D3> Im seriously considering switching to a light vim theme
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